Kareem or Magic.. Who had the most impact on the lakers?

[Theoo's Daddy]

Help a young buck understand this.

[Soothing Layup]

Magic Fanwise, kareem stat wise.

[jb220]

The Cap

KAJ >>>> Magic

[Shep]

kareem in '80, and '81. magic every other year

[Sarcastic]

Kareem didn't win with the Lakers for 4 years until Magic showed up in 1979-80.

[Bigsmoke]

tie.

Kareem was amazing for real.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_kn6kLRs5o

[jlauber]

Hmmm,

BEFORE Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem playing alongside some of the most talented players in the league...and were basically either early round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

WITH Magic...LA IMMEDIATELY won a title. They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to NINE Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and FIVE titles.

AFTER Kareem...the Lakers actually IMPROVED the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year. Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals.

AFTER Magic...the Lakers IMMEDIATELY plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.


BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in EIGHT of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

Now, you tell me who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years.

[Soundwave]

Magic.

They basically started winning titles when he got there and still got back to the Finals again in '91 without him. If Magic didn't get HIV, they probably could've retooled a bit a few more times -- ie: imagine Barkley gets traded to L.A. instead of Phoenix in '92.

[wakencdukest]

Magic. He was the floor leader. He brought an energy and unselfishness to the Lakers that they didn't have, and all the other players bought into it, including Kareem.

[DMAVS41]

Definitely Magic in my opinion. I don't think Kareem cared as much about winning until Magic got there.

I'm one of the few that ranks Magic higher than Kareem.

[FKAri]

Kareem >>> Magic as a player and Laker

Magic's charisma has tainted people's memories.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Definitely Kareem earlier and definitely Magic later on.

Kareem was a hell of a lot better than Magic in 1980 and Magic was a hell of a lot better in '87 and '88. Kareem was better in 1982, though it was closer, but watch the games. Kareem was easily the Lakers best scorer, the only player on the team that you'd have to consistently double and a much more important player defensively than Magic, don't forget that he was still blocking about 3 shots per game. And Kareem was always the guy the Lakers went to when they really needed a basket late because of that deadly sky hook. I've always felt that Kareem's defense and passing were underrated. Magic's scoring was still very limited because he didn't really have the outside shot or the consistent post game yet and relied on transition for a lot of his own offense, though with that being said, he would box out and get offensive rebounds for some extra points, but he was never a great defender and certainly not comparable to a 7'2"-7'3" guy in the paint blocking 3 shots per game.

By 1985, they were pretty close, and you could make an argument either way.

[Round Mound]

Till 1985, Kareem

Then it was Magic, from 86 to 91

[SpecialQue]

Hmmm,

BEFORE Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem playing alongside some of the most talented players in the league...and were basically either early round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

WITH Magic...LA IMMEDIATELY won a title. They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to NINE Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and FIVE titles.

AFTER Kareem...the Lakers actually IMPROVED the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year. Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals.

AFTER Magic...the Lakers IMMEDIATELY plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.


BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in EIGHT of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

Now, you tell me who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years.

Hey Jlauber, please write a basketball history book. I'm not even remotely fvcking joking. Your posts on Wilt are fantastic, and this just reminded me how much I dig your posts.

[iamgine]

Maybe we can debate who's the better player but as for impact, come on it's Magic and not even close.

[HighFlyer23]

Kareem >>>>>>>>>>

[xoneatom]

Kareem was unstoppable, but Magic made the Lakers unstoppable.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Until '84 it was KAJ, maybe even 1985 as well (they were at least equal in terms of impact in 1985). After that, Magic.

[SpecialQue]

Definitely Magic in my opinion. I don't think Kareem cared as much about winning until Magic got there.

I'm one of the few that ranks Magic higher than Kareem.

And I'm probably the only person who ranks Magic higher than Jordan. Yeah, I said it. Tell me one player who had the all-around impact that Magic had on his team during that rookie year.

[jlip]

To piggyback off jlauber's post...

The debate between Kareem and Magic as Lakers places Kareem somewhat at a disadvantage because quite a bit of Kareem's success came as a Buck (ROY, 3 MVPs, 1 Finals MVP, and his best statistical seasons) and not as a Laker. Also, the Lakers' championship success corresponds with the arrival of Magic (although Kareem played a HUGE and sometimes underrated role).

But let's also look at both players' success as Lakers without each other.

Kareem played 4 seasons in LA without Magic which were in his prime. Kareem at that time was considered the most individually dominating player in the game. But in those 4 "Magicless" seasons Kareem led the Lakers to very limited success which includes a losing season where they missed the playoffs (Kareem played in ALL 82 games that season) and a 1st round exit. They only made it as far as the conference Finals one season and got swept with Kareem in his prime. In those 4 seasons the Lakers averaged only 46 wins. In '79 before Magic got there, the Lakers were basically an average middle of the pack team not that much different than the present day Hawks.

Magic played in 2 seasons without Kareem and led the Lakers to the best record in the entire NBA the 1st season and the NBA Finals the next.

Whether its deserved or not, Magic is viewed by the organization and the public as the reason the Lakers went from being bridesmaids to brides. Yes they won the '72 title, but since the days of Mikan, that had been their only championship before Magic arrived despite making it to so many Finals.

[whoartthou]

And I'm probably the only person who ranks Magic higher than Jordan. Yeah, I said it. Tell me one player who had the all-around impact that Magic had on his team during that rookie year.

no defense by magic..

[whoartthou]

To piggyback off jlauber's post...

The debate between Kareem and Magic as Lakers places Kareem somewhat at a disadvantage because quite a bit of Kareem's success came as a Buck (ROY, 3 MVPs, 1 Finals MVP, and his best statistical seasons) and not as a Laker. Also, the Lakers' championship success corresponds with the arrival of Magic (although Kareem played a HUGE and sometimes underrated role).

But let's also look at both players' success as Lakers without each other.

Kareem played 4 seasons in LA without Magic which were in his prime. Kareem at that time was considered the most individually dominating player in the game. But in those 4 "Magicless" seasons Kareem led the Lakers to very limited success which includes a losing season where they missed the playoffs (Kareem played in ALL 82 games that season) and a 1st round exit. They only made it as far as the conference Finals one season and got swept with Kareem in his prime. In those 4 seasons the Lakers averaged only 46 wins. In '79 before Magic got there, the Lakers were basically an average middle of the pack team not that much different than the present day Hawks.

Magic played in 2 seasons without Kareem and led the Lakers to the best record in the entire NBA the 1st season and the NBA Finals the next.

Whether its deserved or not, Magic is viewed by the organization and the public as the reason the Lakers went from being bridesmaids to brides. Yes they won the '72 title, but since the days of Mikan, that had been their only championship before Magic arrived despite making it to so many Finals.

just curious, but what did the rosters look like before magic came and after he came?

[LAClipsFan33]

Kareem didn't win with the Lakers for 4 years until Magic showed up in 1979-80.

And Magic wouldn't have won sh!t if Kareem wasn't there when he got there. So tired of this argument...

[LAClipsFan33]

just curious, but what did the rosters look like before magic came and after he came?

A hell of a lot better after Kareem left than before Magic came

[bdreason]

Most impact on the Lakers? Probably Magic.



More dominant player? Kareem.

[bdreason]

Kareem didn't win with the Lakers for 4 years until Magic showed up in 1979-80.


And Kareem won a title without Magic, playing for a nothing franchise.


How many titles did Magic win without Kareem again? :oldlol:

[jlauber]

And Magic wouldn't have won sh!t if Kareem wasn't there when he got there. So tired of this argument...

Let's see here...

Game six of the NBA Finals, in Magic's ROOKIE season, on the ROAD, and withOUT Kareem, who was at home sleeping on his couch...and all Magic did was put up a 42 point game, on 14-23 shooting from the field, and a perfect 14-14 from the line...with a GAME-HIGH (and by a huge margin) 15 rebounds, along with seven assists, in LEADING the Lakers to a clinching title win.

Magic was injured in the following season, and was nowhere 100% in the playoffs. Did Kareem step up like Magic? No, he was outplayed by Moses, and the 40-42 Rockets stunned LA.

In the very next season, it was MAGIC who dominated in the post-season, particularly the Finals, and again winning the Finals MVP. Kareem was below average in the post-season that year.

In the 86-87 season, it was MAGIC and then Worthy who led LA to a dominating title, with Kareem contributing as the "third wheel."

In the 87-88 season, it was again MAGIC and Worthy who led LA to a hard-fought seven game series title win over the Pistons. How about Kareem? He played poorly in the entire post-season, and was simply AWFUL in the Finals (he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414...and was a non-factor defensively.) So, the Lakers essentially won the title that year DESPITE Kareem. AC Green and Mychael Thompson played even better than Kareem.

In the next season, the Lakers were 11-0 going into the Finals. They were already without Byron Scott going into the Finals, and then Magic went down mid-way in game two, in a tie game...and was lost for the series. The Lakers were SWEPT without him. Kareem was worthless in the entire series.

Kareem retired, and Magic led LA to a 63-19 record, which was the best record in the league, and the Lakers' SECOND BEST record in the decade of the 80's. And then Magic took that "Showtime" team, which was well past their peak, and injury-riddled, to a 58-24 record, and yet another Finals.

Interesting too that WITH Kareem, Magic's Lakers averaged 58 wins per season, and withOUT Kareem, they averaged 61 wins per season, despite the twilight of their Dynasty.



just curious, but what did the rosters look like before magic came and after he came?

Kareem played with players like Wilkes, Hudson, Nixon, and Dantley in the two seasons before Magic arrived. Also, interesting was the fact that while Wilkes was an under-sized PF, he was also an under-sized PF on the '75 Warriors...a team that Rick Barry led to a title.

Those Laker teams were probably as talented as any team in the league in those two seasons, and in fact, Kareem failed to take 59, 60, and 63 win team's to titles earlier in the decade, as well (and only one Final in those three years.) And this was the worst decade in NBA history for championship teams, too. The one title he won came against a Bullets team that went 42-40. The Warriors, behind Barry, went 48-34 in '75. The '77 Blazers not only won the title with a 49-33 record, they swept Kareem's 53-29 Lakers in the WCF's. In '78 the 44-38 Bullets won an NBA title, and in '79 the 52-30 Sonics, with ONE borderline HOF player mowed down the Lakers, 4-1 in the playoffs en route to a title.

I'm sorry, but I see a SIGNIFICANT pattern in all of the above.

[Sarcastic]

And Magic wouldn't have won sh!t if Kareem wasn't there when he got there. So tired of this argument...

Another Nostradamus in the house that can predict exactly how events would play out in an alternate reality.

Looking at the facts in our normal reality we find that Magic Johnson actually led a past prime Lakers team all the way to the finals, and only lost to an upcoming superstar that you may or may not have heard of. His name was Michael Jordan.

[Sarcastic]

And Kareem won a title without Magic, playing for a nothing franchise.


How many titles did Magic win without Kareem again? :oldlol:

Kareem needed Oscar's help. How many did he win without Magic or Oscar?

[jlauber]

And Kareem won a title without Magic, playing for a nothing franchise.


How many titles did Magic win without Kareem again? :oldlol:

Let's examine Kareem's title first. The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar, and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71. Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.) However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year? They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs. Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their SECOND and THIRD best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome. Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

As for Magic, I maintain that his '88 Lakers would have won the title without Kareem, who was just awful in the Finals. Kareem was no better than the Lakers 5th or 6th best player in the post-season, and for sure in the Finals that year. Furthermore, LA was such a dominating team in '87, that I really believe that the Lakers could have won a title without Kareem, and with Thompson and Green playing more minutes. Finally, we also know that Magic could take over a clinching game six win in the Finals in his rookie season, and with Kareem at home watching the game on TV.

[bdreason]

Kareem needed Oscar's help. How many did he win without Magic or Oscar?


That doesn't change anything. We are talking about Magic vs. Kareem. And the fact is that Kareem proved he could win a ring without Magic, and Magic didn't win anything without Kareem.




I personally never use arguements like this (because it takes a TEAM to win a ring), but I'm just responding to the retards who try and use the "Kareem didn't win until Magic showed up" arguement.


You're right, Kareem didn't win in LA until Magic showed up... but he did win a ring without Magic... and Magic never won shit without Kareem.

[Sarcastic]

That doesn't change anything. We are talking about Magic vs. Kareem. And the fact is that Kareem proved he could win a ring without Magic, and Magic didn't win anything without Kareem.




I personally never use arguements like this (because it takes a TEAM to win a ring), but I'm just responding to the retards who try and use the "Kareem didn't win until Magic showed up" arguement.


You're right, Kareem didn't win in LA until Magic showed up... but he did win a ring without Magic... and Magic never won shit without Kareem.

So basically you are proving that Kareem was lucky enough to ride the coattails of Magic and Oscar and get some rings because of it.

[LAClipsFan33]

So basically you are proving that Kareem was lucky enough to ride the coattails of Magic and Oscar and get some rings because of it.

Last time I checked it was Kareem who averaged 28ppg and 18rpg in 1971 and won Finals MVP

[LAClipsFan33]

Let's see here...

Game six of the NBA Finals, in Magic's ROOKIE season, on the ROAD, and withOUT Kareem, who was at home sleeping on his couch...and all Magic did was put up a 42 point game, on 14-23 shooting from the field, and a perfect 14-14 from the line...with a GAME-HIGH (and by a huge margin) 15 rebounds, along with seven assists, in LEADING the Lakers to a clinching title win.

Magic was injured in the following season, and was nowhere 100% in the playoffs. Did Kareem step up like Magic? No, he was outplayed by Moses, and the 40-42 Rockets stunned LA.

In the very next season, it was MAGIC who dominated in the post-season, particularly the Finals, and again winning the Finals MVP. Kareem was below average in the post-season that year.

In the 86-87 season, it was MAGIC and then Worthy who led LA to a dominating title, with Kareem contributing as the "third wheel."

In the 87-88 season, it was again MAGIC and Worthy who led LA to a hard-fought seven game series title win over the Pistons. How about Kareem? He played poorly in the entire post-season, and was simply AWFUL in the Finals (he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414...and was a non-factor defensively.) So, the Lakers essentially won the title that year DESPITE Kareem. AC Green and Mychael Thompson played even better than Kareem.

In the next season, the Lakers were 11-0 going into the Finals. They were already without Byron Scott going into the Finals, and then Magic went down mid-way in game two, in a tie game...and was lost for the series. The Lakers were SWEPT without him. Kareem was worthless in the entire series.

Kareem retired, and Magic led LA to a 63-19 record, which was the best record in the league, and the Lakers' SECOND BEST record in the decade of the 80's. And then Magic took that "Showtime" team, which was well past their peak, and injury-riddled, to a 58-24 record, and yet another Finals.

Interesting too that WITH Kareem, Magic's Lakers averaged 58 wins per season, and withOUT Kareem, they averaged 61 wins per season, despite the twilight of their Dynasty.


I don't feel any different. No Cap No Ring

[jlauber]

Last time I checked it was Kareem who averaged 28ppg and 18rpg in 1971 and won Finals MVP

Against a 42-40 Bullets team, with 6-7 Wes Unseld outrebounding Kareem in that series.

I will agree that it was Kareem's greatest season overall, but he could not have had an easier road to a ring.

[bdreason]

So basically you are proving that Kareem was lucky enough to ride the coattails of Magic and Oscar and get some rings because of it.


That doesn't make any sense.


The common denominator in both cases is Kareem... so using your logic it was Oscar and Magic riding Kareem's coattails.


Kareem's credentials CRUSH both of those guys resumes, and Kareem is also ranked higher on most (intelligent) peoples top 10 lists than either Magic or Oscar.

[LAClipsFan33]

Against a 42-40 Bullets team, with 6-7 Wes Unseld outrebounding Kareem in that series.

I will agree that it was Kareem's greatest season overall, but he could not have had an easier road to a ring.

So do you have something against Kareem ? I've never seen this type criticism for a guy who played awesome on his way to a ring

[Sarcastic]

That doesn't make any sense.


The common denominator in both cases is Kareem... so using your logic it was Oscar and Magic riding Kareem's coattails.


Kareem's credentials CRUSH both of those guys resumes, and Kareem is also ranked higher on most (intelligent) peoples top 10 lists than either Magic or Oscar.

Only because he dominated the 1970s and won a ton of MVPs in that decade. In the 1980s Magic had the better resume.

[Mr. Jabbar]

To their team sucess: KAJ. Their franchise value: Magic. If that makes any sense.

[Sarcastic]

The OP asked whose impact ON THE LAKERS was greater. The answer to that question is Magic Johnson.

He didn't ask who is the greater all around player, or who is higher on the GOAT list.

[bdreason]

So do you have something against Kareem ? I've never seen this type criticism for a guy who played awesome on his way to a ring


jlauber is a Wilt fanatic who tries to bring down everyone else to promote his hero. I once saw a jlauber top 10 GOAT list that didn't even include Kareem. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

jlauber is a Wilt fanatic who tries to bring down everyone else to promote his hero. I once saw a jlauber top 10 GOAT list that didn't even include Kareem. :oldlol:

i haven't seen that.

its natural though being a wilt fan. Kareem didn't like Wilt and didn't ever think of him as a truly great player.

Just yesterday morning Kareem was asked about Wilt on Mike and Mike and Kareem said Wilt wasn't a very good team player.

I sense a lot of jealousy out of some of the other elite big men of all time with Wilt. Its like they are trying to say that they could have put up his numbers but they chose to win. Which is fine, but then come out and say it. Don't dance around it.

I however completely disagree with that notion and Kareem should go to bed at night thanking God for the Lakers getting Magic to play with him. Kareem loves to play the "winning is all that matters" role now, but he didn't play like it for a large part of his career.

He was disinterested in the process before Magic came. Oh how much easier to win it is when you have an all time great teammate and team at your side. Its so easy to talk about sacrifice and winning when thats the case.

Kareem without Magic or another elite player wasn't winning shit in the 80's.

[bdreason]

Kareem loves to play the "winning is all that matters" role now, but he didn't play like it for a large part of his career.

He was disinterested in the process before Magic came. Oh how much easier to win it is when you have an all time great teammate and team at your side. Its so easy to talk about sacrifice and winning when thats the case.

Kareem without Magic or another elite player wasn't winning shit in the 80's.


I think this is BS based on pure specualtion of who you think Kareem was as a player and teammate. Kareem won 3 High School state titles, 3 NCAA titles, and 1 NBA Championship before he even played one game with Erving 'Magic' Johnson... but I'm supposed to believe that Magic taught him how to be a winner? :facepalm



And Magic without Kareem or another Elite player wasn't winning shit in the 80's either.

[DMAVS41]

I think this is BS based on pure specualtion of who you think Kareem was as a player and teammate. Kareem won 3 High School State Titles, 3 NCAA titles, and 1 NBA Championship before he even played one game with Erving 'Magic' Johnson... but I'm supposed to believe that Magic taught him how to be a winner? :facepalm



And Magic without Kareem or another Elite player wasn't winning shit in the 80's either.

Taught him how to be a winner? What? Never said that at all.

I said lets not pretend like Kareem was tearing up the NBA and rattling off title after title before Magic showed up.

Kareem is who he is. He's a guy that looked down on a lot of people throughout his life and career. Its obvious. I felt the same way back in 1983 as I do today.

He was a great basketball player and one of the best ever, but he had lost a little passion for the game before Magic arrived....its just the truth.

[KG215]

So do you have something against Kareem ? I've never seen this type criticism for a guy who played awesome on his way to a ring

A lot of people that grew up watching Kareem didn't like him from what I've read. While jlauber has an eternal hard-on for Wilt Chamberlain he does make some very valid arguments for his boy Wilt in any debate as to who the GOAT center is in NBA history.

jlauber, or anyone else for that matter, can you help me understand how KAJ's supporting cast was overly remarkable before Magic's arrival? I'm 24 so, obviously, I wasn't around during that era. I just did some digging around on basketball-reference.

1975-1976
Kareem's first season with the Lakers. They finish 40-42 and miss the playoffs. Kareem averages 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 4.1 bpg on 52.9% shooting, and won the first of his three MVP's as a Los Angeles Laker. The teams second leading scorer was a 32 year old Gail Goodrich on the back-end of his prime and made the last of his 5 All-Star appearances the season before Wilt arrived. In '75-'76 Goodrich averaged a respectable 19.5 points and 5.6 assists per game. But again, going off other seasons, this wasn't prime Goodrich. The team's third leading scorer was Lucius Allen who apparently never made an All-Star game. Allen was 28 years old that season and was also on the backside of his prime. Still, Allen averaged a 14.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, and 4.7 rebounds per game. Then there was 31 year old Cazzie Russell (one All-Star appearance in 1972) who averaged 11.8 points per game. While I don't necessarily know the exact impact those players had on the league during their careers, it is apparent that all three had reached and passed their peaks before Kareem's arrival to LA.

1976-1977
Kareem won his second consecutive league MVP trophy and lead the Lakers to a 53-29 record, the best in the NBA. He averaged 26.2 points, 13.3 rebounds, 3.9 assists, and 3.2 blocks per game while shooting 57.9% from the floor. The Lakers were swept in 4 games by the Trail Blazers in the Western Conference Finals, a team I'm sure you all know quite a bit about. Kareem's main two supporters this season were Cazzie Russell and Lucius Allen, both a year older and a year further away from their respective primes. Gail Goodrich was no longer with the Lakers and was playing in New Orleans for the Jazz. The team's next two leading scorers were a young Kermit Washington (one time All-Star starting the mild climb to his moderate peak that season) and a career bench player in Earl Tatum. I wouldn't necessarily call that a great supporting cast.

1977-1978
Kareem has another superb individual season putting up 25.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.0 bpg and shot 55.0% from the field. The Lakers finished the season with a 45-37 record. Kareem's supporting cast did appear to be better this season. After playing the first 23 games of the season with the Pacers a 21 year old Adrian Dantley joined the Lakers for the final 56 games of the regular season. In those 56 games Dantley scored 19.6 points per game and grabbed 7.2 rebounds. But this was still a very young Adrian Dantley and wasn't the same Dantley that would go on to average 30 ppg in five seasons with the Jazz. He was a great scorer but not yet in his prime. James Edwards was the second leading scorer on the team but was a part of the deal that brought Dantley to the Lakers. The team's next three leading scorers were Earl Tatum, (again, I don't think he was anything real special) a rookie Norm Nixon, and a 33 year old Lou Hudson way past his prime.

The Lakers lost 2-1 in the first round to Seattle, who went on to lose to the Bullets in 7 games in the NBA Finals.


1978-1979
The Lakers finish the season 47-35 and lose in the second round to the eventual champs, Seattle.

For the second straight year it does appear Kareem's supporting cast improved, but I'm not sure I would call it a great supporting cast. 25 year old Jamaal Wilkes was the team's second leading scorer and was just beginning his prime. However, he failed to make the All-Star team that season despite averages of 18.6 points, 7.4 rebounds, 2.8 assists and 1.6 steals per game. Maybe he was a snub??


Dantley was on the team that season but played in just 60 games. I don't know which 60 games they were, either. Did he get hurt and miss the last part of the season and the playoffs? Or did he get hurt early in the year and play the remainder of the season and the playoffs. And if he played in the playoffs how healthy was he??

LA also had Norm Nixon in his second season. He put up 17.1 ppg to go along with 9.0 apg and 2.5 spg. However, he was still 3 seasons away from making his first All-Star game. The fifth leading scorer was a 34 year old Lou Hudson.


Magic arrived the following season and the rest is history. Now, jlauber, I read where you said Kareem played with some of the best players the NBA had to offer prior to Magic's arrival. From what I gathered (and again, it's mostly from things I've read) almost all of the players Kareem played with were once great players who were beyond their prime and aging, or young players who had not yet reached their prime. So, if that is the case, and they truly were some of the best players they had to offer, was the NBA that weak during the 70's? I have read that a majority of the 70's was one of, if not the, weakest era in NBA history.

I know other things go into winning and leading a team to a title. Maybe Kareem was (like I've read) a little disinterested before Magic's arrival. And maybe he wasn't the best leader during his first years with the Lakers. Maybe some of those guys didn't like playing with him. I don't know, but he did put up very gaudy numbers and didn't appear to have a real special supporting cast.

[Harison]

Kareem >>> Magic as a player and Laker

Magic's charisma has tainted people's memories.
This. Of course in the later part of their careers prime Magic was better than 40 years old Kareem, but when he was younger, it wasnt really close.

To those who are saying that Kareem didnt win until Magic showed up, let me remind you if it was reversed and Kareem joined Lakers later, Magic wouldnt have won anything with those LA until Kareem showed up. They needed each other, but Kareems impact was greater than Magic's for most of his LA career.

Or another situation, if prime Kareem would have played along prime Magic, who do you think impacts more? There is no question really. Plus Magic would win zero MVPs in such case.

[BlueandGold]

Hmmm,

BEFORE Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem playing alongside some of the most talented players in the league...and were basically either early round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

WITH Magic...LA IMMEDIATELY won a title. They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to NINE Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and FIVE titles.

AFTER Kareem...the Lakers actually IMPROVED the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year. Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals.

AFTER Magic...the Lakers IMMEDIATELY plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.


BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in EIGHT of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

Now, you tell me who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years.
This, and I hate it when people try to use the excuse that Kareem won a title without Magic but not vice versa. Well Kareem had to rely on Oscar Robinson to win that title and was mediocre at best with mediocre talent. Magic took a rag-tag group of players to a Finals berth and on fumes still nearly averaged a triple double in the last Finals series he'll play, which incidentally didn't have Kareem in it.

[jlauber]

A lot of people that grew up watching Kareem didn't like him from what I've read. While jlauber has an eternal hard-on for Wilt Chamberlain he does make some very valid arguments for his boy Wilt in any debate as to who the GOAT center is in NBA history.

jlauber, or anyone else for that matter, can you help me understand how KAJ's supporting cast was overly remarkable before Magic's arrival? I'm 24 so, obviously, I wasn't around during that era. I just did some digging around on basketball-reference.

1975-1976
Kareem's first season with the Lakers. They finish 40-42 and miss the playoffs. Kareem averages 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 4.1 bpg on 52.9% shooting, and won the first of his three MVP's as a Los Angeles Laker. The teams second leading scorer was a 32 year old Gail Goodrich on the back-end of his prime and made the last of his 5 All-Star appearances the season before Wilt arrived. In '75-'76 Goodrich averaged a respectable 19.5 points and 5.6 assists per game. But again, going off other seasons, this wasn't prime Goodrich. The team's third leading scorer was Lucius Allen who apparently never made an All-Star game. Allen was 28 years old that season and was also on the backside of his prime. Still, Allen averaged a 14.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, and 4.7 rebounds per game. Then there was 31 year old Cazzie Russell (one All-Star appearance in 1972) who averaged 11.8 points per game. While I don't necessarily know the exact impact those players had on the league during their careers, it is apparent that all three had reached and passed their peaks before Kareem's arrival to LA.

1976-1977
Kareem won his second consecutive league MVP trophy and lead the Lakers to a 53-29 record, the best in the NBA. He averaged 26.2 points, 13.3 rebounds, 3.9 assists, and 3.2 blocks per game while shooting 57.9% from the floor. The Lakers were swept in 4 games by the Trail Blazers in the Western Conference Finals, a team I'm sure you all know quite a bit about. Kareem's main two supporters this season were Cazzie Russell and Lucius Allen, both a year older and a year further away from their respective primes. Gail Goodrich was no longer with the Lakers and was playing in New Orleans for the Jazz. The team's next two leading scorers were a young Kermit Washington (one time All-Star starting the mild climb to his moderate peak that season) and a career bench player in Earl Tatum. I wouldn't necessarily call that a great supporting cast.

1977-1978
Kareem has another superb individual season putting up 25.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.0 bpg and shot 55.0% from the field. The Lakers finished the season with a 45-37 record. Kareem's supporting cast did appear to be better this season. After playing the first 23 games of the season with the Pacers a 21 year old Adrian Dantley joined the Lakers for the final 56 games of the regular season. In those 56 games Dantley scored 19.6 points per game and grabbed 7.2 rebounds. But this was still a very young Adrian Dantley and wasn't the same Dantley that would go on to average 30 ppg in five seasons with the Jazz. He was a great scorer but not yet in his prime. James Edwards was the second leading scorer on the team but was a part of the deal that brought Dantley to the Lakers. The team's next three leading scorers were Earl Tatum, (again, I don't think he was anything real special) a rookie Norm Nixon, and a 33 year old Lou Hudson way past his prime.

The Lakers lost 2-1 in the first round to Seattle, who went on to lose to the Bullets in 7 games in the NBA Finals.


1978-1979
The Lakers finish the season 47-35 and lose in the second round to the eventual champs, Seattle.

For the second straight year it does appear Kareem's supporting cast improved, but I'm not sure I would call it a great supporting cast. 25 year old Jamaal Wilkes was the team's second leading scorer and was just beginning his prime. However, he failed to make the All-Star team that season despite averages of 18.6 points, 7.4 rebounds, 2.8 assists and 1.6 steals per game. Maybe he was a snub??


Dantley was on the team that season but played in just 60 games. I don't know which 60 games they were, either. Did he get hurt and miss the last part of the season and the playoffs? Or did he get hurt early in the year and play the remainder of the season and the playoffs. And if he played in the playoffs how healthy was he??

LA also had Norm Nixon in his second season. He put up 17.1 ppg to go along with 9.0 apg and 2.5 spg. However, he was still 3 seasons away from making his first All-Star game. The fifth leading scorer was a 34 year old Lou Hudson.


Magic arrived the following season and the rest is history. Now, jlauber, I read where you said Kareem played with some of the best players the NBA had to offer prior to Magic's arrival. From what I gathered (and again, it's mostly from things I've read) almost all of the players Kareem played with were once great players who were beyond their prime and aging, or young players who had not yet reached their prime. So, if that is the case, and they truly were some of the best players they had to offer, was the NBA that weak during the 70's? I have read that a majority of the 70's was one of, if not the, weakest era in NBA history.

I know other things go into winning and leading a team to a title. Maybe Kareem was (like I've read) a little disinterested before Magic's arrival. And maybe he wasn't the best leader during his first years with the Lakers. Maybe some of those guys didn't like playing with him. I don't know, but he did put up very gaudy numbers and didn't appear to have a real special supporting cast.

I don't have much time this morning, and I will address all of this later, but a couple of quick corrections.

In the 77-78 season, the Lakers also had Jamaal Wilkes. He averaged 12.9 ppg and 7.5 rpg in the regular season, and then 12.0 ppg and 8.7 rpg in the playoffs. As for Dantley not being in his prime, no, he wasn't, but he did show glimpses of it with Indiana before the Lakers traded for him. He was averaging 26.5, 9.4 rpg, and shooting .499 with the Pacers. And, with LA he averaged 19.4 ppg, 7.2 rpg, and shot .520. Then, in the playoffs, he averaged 17.0 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and shot a team high .571.

Wilkes was interesting. You say he wasn't in his prime before Magic came along. I would argue that Magic made him a much better player. In any case, in his rookie season with the Warriors, he was Rick Barry's second best player. He was 2nd in scoring with the Warriors at 14.2 ppg, and he was the team's 2nd best rebounder (and starting PF) at 8.2 rpg. His numbers were very similar with Kareem. Furthermore, I would argue that Barry took a lessor cast of talent to a title, while Kareem couldn't come close to winning a title with his much better roster in '78 and '79. And, don't forget that the team's winning titles in the 70's were not loaded with talent, either.

[Odinn]

They played 10 years together.

First 3 years; surely Kareem.
Next 3 years; I'd say Kareem but really close.
Last 4 years; obviously Magic.

[G.O.A.T]

Magic & Kareem Two Emperor Empire (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193455)

[LA_Showtime]

I got Kareem's autograph when I was like 14. He didn't strike me as an asshole... just very private.

[24r2]

Kobe Bryant

[Pointguard]

When Magic came to town it was a whole new ball game. There was electricity in the game and inspired players seemed energized by his thoughts. Magic had an all around game. The offense in the last 5 years seemed to be an extension of his thoughts, like he had tentacles that acted out in other players. He was so good players couldn't catch his passes at first - passes were bouncing off of players heads. The team had to catch up to Magic. Kareen didn't. He moozied down the court and Magic ran a secondary offense when the fast break didn't work. Magic controlled tempo, made superior decisions, and executed better than any other player. He also could engage players who lacked game like Kurt Rambis to play above their heads. If you were hot you got the ball where and how you like it. He was unlike any before him.

I think Kareem out-rebounded Magic in only one year. Magic had all around game and forced his style of game on opponents. Kareem was still a great post player that could block shots (like 2 per game). He made key clutch shots time after time. He looked very energized with Magic than he did in his prime. Still didn't hustle up the court tho. Magic was very clutch himself. He liked the running game but excelled in the slow down game. He could see over defenders and could push the issue. Magic operated as do it all offensive player, leader and inspiration guy.

Simply put Magic was more involved than Kareem was. His execution, decision making and hands on leadership was how the team functioned and how they responded to game situations. Kareem was finisher and closer - great shot maker.

[SmackOrH.A.K]

how did the lakers end up with the 1stst overall pick and get magic?

and how was bird picked 6th overall by boston?

did both teams really have terrible records?

[G.O.A.T]

how did the lakers end up with the 1stst overall pick and get magic?

and how was bird picked 6th overall by boston?

did both teams really have terrible records?

The Lakers got the Magic pick, from New Orleans (The Jazz) for Gail Goodrich in 1976. The 70's were filled with terrible GM's in expansion markets who sold away heir #1 picks for next to nothing.

The Bird pick was Boston's, they bottomed out in '78 and used their #6 pick to select the draft eligible Bird, while he was still a junior at Indiana State but had transferred from Indiana and thus was four years removed from high school graduation.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Before Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem playing alongside some pretty decent talent...and were basically either early round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

With Magic...LA immediately won a title. They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to 9 Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and 5 titles.

After Kareem...the Lakers actually improved the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year. Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals.

AFTER Magic...the Lakers immediately plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.


In their 10 years, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in 8 of the 10 MVPs.

You tell me. Magic meant so much more to the Lakers. KAJ never really cared bout winning that much before Magic came. When people think of the showtime Lakers, who pops up in their minds first? Magic or Kareem?

[Eat Like A Bosh]

I got Kareem's autograph when I was like 14. He didn't strike me as an asshole... just very private.
Really? Nice!
In the book "When the Game was ours", Magic said that Kareem didn't decline autographs in a very nice way. Magic, on the other hand, was much more willing to give an autograph.

[Disaprine]

Magic imo.

[KG215]

I don't have much time this morning, and I will address all of this later, but a couple of quick corrections.

In the 77-78 season, the Lakers also had Jamaal Wilkes. He averaged 12.9 ppg and 7.5 rpg in the regular season, and then 12.0 ppg and 8.7 rpg in the playoffs. As for Dantley not being in his prime, no, he wasn't, but he did show glimpses of it with Indiana before the Lakers traded for him. He was averaging 26.5, 9.4 rpg, and shooting .499 with the Pacers. And, with LA he averaged 19.4 ppg, 7.2 rpg, and shot .520. Then, in the playoffs, he averaged 17.0 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and shot a team high .571.

Wilkes was interesting. You say he wasn't in his prime before Magic came along. I would argue that Magic made him a much better player. In any case, in his rookie season with the Warriors, he was Rick Barry's second best player. He was 2nd in scoring with the Warriors at 14.2 ppg, and he was the team's 2nd best rebounder (and starting PF) at 8.2 rpg. His numbers were very similar with Kareem. Furthermore, I would argue that Barry took a lessor cast of talent to a title, while Kareem couldn't come close to winning a title with his much better roster in '78 and '79. And, don't forget that the team's winning titles in the 70's were not loaded with talent, either.


Thanks. There's only so much I can gather from the internet and books. Some things I've read have lead me to believe the 70's was a pretty weak era in the NBA. Expansion and the ABA played a role in weakening the league. I've also heard the Warriors, Bullets and Sonics two of the weaker champions in NBA history. Wilt's supporting cast didn't appear to be LeBron James with Cleveland bad, so I am a little surprised he never won a title with players like Wilkes, Dantley, Goodrich, etc. before Magic arrived.

[jlip]

I think Kareem out-rebounded Magic in only one year. Magic had all around game and forced his style of game on opponents.

Magic vs Kareem rebounding as teammates '80-'89 (per game avg.)
Regular season
Kareem-7.6rpg
Magic-7.4rpg
Magic outrebounded Kareem in the '82, '83, '88, and '89 regular seasons.

Playoffs
Kareem 7.5 rpg
Magic 7.7 rpg
Magic out rebounded Kareem in the '82, '83, '86, '87, '88, and '89 playoffs. Magic outrebounded Kareem in the '82, '83, '84, '87, and '88 Finals.

In defense of Kareem, after '85 we are talking about a 38+ year old player who was the oldest player in the game. 99% of NBA players have retired by that age.

[Pointguard]

Magic vs Kareem rebounding as teammates '80-'89 (per game avg.)
Regular season
Kareem-7.6rpg
Magic-7.4rpg
Magic outrebounded Kareem in the '82, '83, '88, and '89 regular seasons.

Playoffs
Kareem 7.5 rpg
Magic 7.7 rpg
Magic out rebounded Kareem in the '82, '83, '86, '87, '88, and '89 playoffs. Magic outrebounded Kareem in the '82, '83, '84, '87, and '88 Finals.

In defense of Kareem, after '85 we are talking about a 38+ year old player who was the oldest player in the game. 99% of NBA players have retired by that age.
Thanks Jlip, Kareem was indeed a senior at the time but was inspired by Magic. Had it not been for Magic I believe he retires four or five years earlier. He showed signs of not liking the game anymore just before Magic joined the team. Kareem was still playing big all around the basket til like '86. After that it was a question of energy. But I brought it up mainly as a measure of Magic's all around game. Magic converted rebounds to fast breaks better than anybody ever in the game.

[alexandreben]

KAJ will have 0 ring without Big O and Magic... I have no doubt about it!

As for the "Magic Lakers", I could be wrong, but they still could've had multiple rings even replace KAJ with another center e.g. Bill Walton, Nate Thurmond, Moses Malone, Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, Akeem, etc. maybe even Dirk, not to mention Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain... my God, imagine these two legendary centers played with Magic...:bowdown:

[bdreason]

KAJ will have 0 ring without Big O and Magic... I have no doubt about it!

As for the "Magic Lakers", I could be wrong, but they still could've had multiple rings even replace KAJ with another center e.g. Bill Walton, Nate Thurmond, Moses Malone, Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, Akeem, etc. maybe even Dirk, not to mention Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain... my God, imagine these two legendary centers played with Magic...:bowdown:


One of the most retarded posts I've ever read on ISH... and that's saying a lot.


Congratulations. :applause:

[alexandreben]

One of the most retarded posts I've ever read on ISH... and that's saying a lot.


Congratulations. :applause:
Do you actually think KAJ could've won a single ring without Magic?! look what he had achived for the team before Magic on board:facepalm

[brownmamba00]

Do you actually think KAJ could've won a single ring without Magic?!
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

He got a ring before Magic you dumbass :facepalm

KAJ>Wilt,Russell, Shaq, Hakeem

[bdreason]

Do you actually think KAJ could've won a single ring without Magic?! look what he had achived for the team before Magic on board:facepalm


He won a ring without Magic, with a co-star that isn't even top 10 all-time... and Kareem was BY FAR the best player on the team, and in the league at the time (6 MVP's in 10 years).



And before Magic joined the Lakers Kareem had already won 3 NBA MVP's as a Lakers player... and despite what some are claiming in this thread, his supporting cast before Magic arrived wasn't even close to championship caliber. Of course, adding a top 5 player all-time (Magic) changed that.

[JellyBean]

Magic by far and I am a huge Kareem fan. But getting Magic put the Lakers on another level. In the 78'-79' season, I remember the Lakers were decent. Once they got Magic, they took off. Magic was that one player that the Lakers needed in order to push them to that elite status. We have to remember that the Lakers were playoff bound for three straight years. But they could never get over the hump, until Magic arrived. Magic had the bigger impact.

[alexandreben]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

He got a ring before Magic you dumbass :facepalm

KAJ>Wilt,Russell, Shaq, Hakeem
read my OP: "KAJ will have 0 ring without Big O and Magic... I have no doubt about it!"

Seriously, I firmly believe that he couldn't win that ring without Big O, and in fact, had the Lakers remained good health that year, I doubt that Bucks can get to the finals...

[ShawnieMac06]

Thanks Jlip, Kareem was indeed a senior at the time but was inspired by Magic. Had it not been for Magic I believe he retires four or five years earlier. He showed signs of not liking the game anymore just before Magic joined the team. Kareem was still playing big all around the basket til like '86. After that it was a question of energy. But I brought it up mainly as a measure of Magic's all around game. Magic converted rebounds to fast breaks better than anybody ever in the game.

Magic, in his autobiography, pretty much attested to that...Kareem's interest in the game dwindling by the late 70s/early 80s, but mostly another reason why Kareem played as long as he did was that his home burned down (I think it was in '84, while the Lakers were on a road trip), and lost virtually everything, therefore he needed the money. With the expection of Magic and maybe Jamaal Wilkes, Kareem wasn't well-liked by his teammates (for all the reasons reported over the years), and it was Magic that bought him a luxury vehicle (I believe a Rolls-Royce) for his retirement.

As far the greatest impact on those Showtime Laker teams, without question, I think Magic had a better impact than Kareem, but it certainly much like Jordan and Pippen, West and Wilt, Shaq and Kobe, one doesn't win without the other. Kareem was still the anchor of the Laker defense (at least during the early years), but Magic was the one put everything together.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Magic had the most impact. Kareen did not win sh!t till Magic got there.

[jlauber]

I have long maintained that Kareem's team's UNDERACHIEVED in the 70's. Not only that, but most everyone has this perception that Kareem was a "clutch" performer (and that Wilt was not.)

One of the best comparisons was Kareem's 77-78 Lakers. They went 45-37, and were dumped by 47-35 Seattle in the first round of the playoffs. Take a look at that Laker roster. Norm Nixon, Lou Hudson, Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 26.5 ppg when the Lakers acquired him), and Jamaal Wilkes.

Wilkes is the interesting one. In his rookie season, in 74-75, and playing alongside Rick Barry, he was the Warriors PF. On that Warrior team he was the second leading scorer and rebounder (14.2 ppg, and 8.2 rpg.) For those that claim that Kareem didn't have a quality PF in his pre-Magic days in LA, well, neither did Barry then, in 74-75.

Why is Wilkes so important in these discussions. Because he was an under-sized starting PF on BOTH the 74-75 Warriors, and Kareem's 77-78 (and 78-79) Lakers. Furthermore, his numbers on BOTH teams were very similar. In 77-78, and playing less minutes than he did in 74-75, he averaged 12.9 ppg and 7.5 rpg.

Take a close look at that 74-75 Warrior team. Aside from Barry and Wilkes, they were mainly comprised of no-names and role players. And yet, they SWEPT the 60-22 Bullets in the Finals, a team with Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes. As I mentioed previously, the 77-78 Lakers, who went 45-37, and with a pretty stacked roster, were eliminated in the first round by the 47-35 Sonics, The Sonics would reach the Finals, where they would lose in seven games to the 44-38 Bullets...a team with Hayes and Unseld.

That is just ONE example of how Kareem's teams underachieved in the 70's. And keep in mind that the 70's were the worst decade in NBA history for championship teams. After Wilt retired following the 72-73 season, the NBA became a very ordinary league. The 56-26 Celtics won the title (over Kareem's 59-23 Bucks) in 73-74. The 48-34 Warriors on the title the very next year. BTW, Kareem's Bucks dropped to 38-44...mainly because Oscar retired. The 54-28 Celtics won the championship in 75-76 (and Kareem's Lakers did not even make the playoffs, going 40-42.) In the 76-77 season, the 49-33 Blazers swept Kareem's 53-29 Lakers in the WCF's, and went on to beat Philly for the title. I already mentioned the 44-38 Bullets winning the title in 77-78. And in 78-79, the 52-30 Sonics, with ONE borderline HOFer (Dennis Johnson) blew out Kareem's 47-35 Lakers, 4-1, en route to a title.

IMHO, Kareem's teams only overachieved in his rookie season, in 69-70, when he came to a 27-55 Bucks team, and immediately carried them to a 56-26 record. However, the eventual chamion Knicks pounded them 4-1 in the ECF's.

The Bucks acquired Oscar the following season, and immediately improved to 66-16. That team was filled with talent, too. Bobby Dandridge was a very underrated player who averged 19.0 on .484 in his NBA career. They also had Jon McGlocklin, who had an almost unlimited shooting range, and was an exceptionally efficient shooter. Lucius Allen was a fine defender and a capable backup PG to Oscar. They were a little weak at the PF, with 6-4 Greg Smith, and they would address that position the very next year by getting a true PF in Curtis Perry, a powerful leaper. However, they did not need him in 70-71. Perhaps playing the weakest playoff team's in NBA history, the 70-71 Bucks romped to a title. IMHO, that was Kareem's finest all-around season,if you include his play in the post-season. He won the MVP award, and then won the Finals MVP. The only player that gave him any problems, was Chamberlain, who was 34, and only a year removed from major knee surgery. Unfortunately for Wilt, he was without BOTH Baylor and West in the WCF's, and despite battling Kareem to a statistical draw ( Kareem outscored Wilt in the WCF's, 25-22 per game, while Wilt outshot Kareem, .489 to .481, and outrebounded him, per game, 19-17), his Lakers were beaten 4-1. BTW, Kareem averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting in 70-71...so, as you can see, Wilt held him considerably below his normal season numbers.

That was it. From that point on, for the rest of the decade of the 70's, Kareem's teams basically underachieved. Not all of it was Kareem's fault, to be sure. In fact, he often played brilliantly. But, for some reason, his teams just never played up tom expectations.

Following the 70-71 season, many "experts" not only predicted a Buck romp to a title in 71-72, there were many who claiming that the young Bucks would dominated the entire decade. However, that "dynasty" never materialized. In that 71-72 season, the defending champion Bucks upgraded their PF position, and went 63-19. In the first round, and with Kareem being thoroughly outplayed by Nate Thurmond (Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem...with Kareem only averaging 22.8 ppg on horrendous .405 shooting), the much stronger Bucks still easily won the series, 4-1. However, the surprising Lakers, who had been written off as over-the-hill following their 48-34 record in 70-71, dominated the NBA en route to a 69-13 mark. In the WCF's, and with Chamberlain being hailed by virtually everyone, including even the Milwaukee press, as outplaying Kareem (especially in the clinching game six win), the Lakers knocked off the Bucks, 4-2. Here again, Kareem, who had shot .574 during the regular season, was held to .457 by Wilt...and in fact, only shot .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series.

In the 72-73, Kareem led Milwaukee to a 60-22 record. However, in the first round of the playoffs, and despite Oscar playing brilliantly, Kareem took his team down in flames against the 47-35 Warriors, as once again Thurmond held Kareem WAY below his normal season numbers. Kareem only averaged 22.8 ppg on .428 shooting, and the Warriors shocked the Bucks, 4-2. That same Warrior team would then go up against Wilt's 60-22 Lakers, and with Chamberlain just crushing Thurmond, the Lakers shredded the Warriors, 4-1. BTW, Wilt would retire after his injury-plagued Lakers were beaten by the HOF-laden Knicks in the Finals.

In the 73-74 season, Kareem led the Bucks to the best record in the league, at 59-23. And, he played a great Finals against the 56-26 underdog Celtics, too. However, in game seven, he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens in every facet of the game, and the Celtics routed Milwaukee in the deciding game. Here again, Kareem had a marvelous series, averaging 32.6 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 5.4 apg, and on .524 shooting...but, in the biggest game of that series, he suddenly choked.

Oscar subsequently retired following that season, and the effect was immediate. The Bucks dropped all the way down to 38-44. True, Kareem missed 16 games with a broken hand, but even in the games in which he played, Milwaukee was only 35-31. Meanwhile, Barry led the 48-34 Warriors to a title.

The Bucks traded Kareem to the Lakers for Elmore Smith, Dave Meyers, and Junior Bridgeman. Kareem did take a Laker team that had been 30-52 the year before, to a 40-42 record, but they still underachieved, especially considering they had HOFer Gail Goodrich, high-scoring Cazzie Russell, PF Kermit Washington, and Kareem's teammate in Milwaukee, Lucius Allen. The Lakers did not even make the playoffs.

Kareem then took that same basic roster to the best record in the league the very next year, 53-29, but without Washington in the post-season, they were wiped out by the 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's. Kareem had a tremendous playoff run that year, averaging 34.6 ppg., 17.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, and on a staggering .607 FG%. You certainly could not fault Kareem in that post-season, but it was fascinating that his team, which had the best record in the league, would be swept by a 49-33 team...even when he played well.

I have documented Kareem's last two season in the decade of the 70's. He took stacked rosters, in a weak NBA, to slightly better than ordinary records, and while he played well in those post-seasons, his team's were wiped out in the first and then second rounds by a Sonics team that was not blessed with outstanding talent.

The bottom line in all of that, though, was that in the entire decade of the 70's...Kareem's teams UNDERACHIEVED. Here again, he played well in virtually all of the regular seasons, and in the majority of his post-seasons, but his teams, some blessed with as much talent, or more, than the teams that would go on to win the title, basically flopped.

Then, Magic arrived, and all of a sudden, the Lakers dominated the entire decade of the 80's. LA would go to EIGHT Finals in the decade, winning FIVE. He even carried LA to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and yet another Finals) in his last two seasons, and AFTER Kareem had retired. Then, when Magic suddenly retired, the Lakers plummetted right back to the "Kareem-led" Laker days of 43-39 and then 39-43 records.

[Pointguard]

I have long maintained that Kareem's team's UNDERACHIEVED in the 70's. Not only that, but most everyone has this perception that Kareem was a "clutch" performer (and that Wilt was not.)
... .
:applause: :applause: :applause:

If the question is who had the most impact on the Lakers its not really close. Kareem had no championship impact on the Lakers for the four or five years there. As I have always said, Kareem in the 70's, 10 years, the worst era in the sport - one ring. Kareem with Magic in the toughest era in the sport 5 rings. No way does Magic get only one ring in the 70's (I mean Rick Barry who was a healthy slightly tougher Mike Miller won once while being the main guy). When Kareem retires the Laker's pull off one of their better records but were beat in the finals by the second greatest dynasty in the sport.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: at JLauber leaving so many facts out as usual to fit his agenda.

That "stacked" '78 Lakers team went 8-12 without Kareem(8-13 if you include a game he left early).

The '79 Lakers had Wilkes playing power forward and their backcourt was so bad defensively that Gus Williams lit them up for over 30 ppg in the playoffs.

The team was very flawed, and how about the '75 Bucks? They went 3-14 without him. And the '76 Lakers had been a 30-52 team the year before Kareem got there and they traded key players to get him, so in reality, their talent level was even worse outside of Kareem.

Kareem was not playing on a bunch of great teams throughout the 70's.

[jlauber]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

If the question is who had the most impact on the Lakers its not really close. Kareem had no championship impact on the Lakers for the four or five years there. As I have always said, Kareem in the 70's, 10 years, the worst era in the sport - one ring. Kareem with Magic in the toughest era in the sport 5 rings. No way does Magic get only one ring in the 70's (I mean Rick Barry who was a healthy slightly tougher Mike Miller won once while being the main guy). When Kareem retires the Laker's pull off one of their better records but were beat in the finals by the second greatest dynasty in the sport.

Yeah...I always get a kick out of those that find Kareem to have been much more "clutch" in his career, than Chamberlain. Wilt routinely CARRIED far inferior rosters to game seven defeats against HOF-laden teams. Take a close look at the team's that Wilt faced in his career. For TEN years he had to battle the greatest Dynasty in professional team sport's history...a team that had as many as NINE HOFers (and a HOF coach BTW) for an entire decade. Not only that but he BEAT that dynasty one time, and narrowly lost FOUR game seven's to them. Then, he had to battle the 69-70 Knicks, who had FOUR HOFers and a talented roster thru 10 spots (and he did so on a surgically repaired knee only four months after that surgery.) The next year, he had to go up against the '71 Bucks, who were among the greatest teams ever...and he did so without BOTH Baylor and West. Then he BEAT that great Bucks team in '72, and followed that up with a ring by beating a NY team that had FIVE HOFers on it. And, in his LAST season, he carried an injury-riddled Laker team to the Finals, where they lost FOUR close games to a Knick team that had SIX HOFer on it.

Compare that with the team's that Kareem faced in the 70's. Hell, his loaded teams in the late 70's were blasted by two Sonics teams that had ONE borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson) for cryingoutloud. Kareem could only win ONE ring in the crappy 70's...and that came in a year in which his Bucks team beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the firsr round of the playoffs; then beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without BOTH Baylor and West; and then swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

The 70's were the weakest era of title teams in the HISTORY of the NBA, and yet the great Kareem, who some even have as the GOAT, could only win ONE ring, and his team's were usually eliminated in the early rounds of the playoffs in most every other season (and in two he did not even make the playoffs.)

[G.O.A.T]

:oldlol: at JLauber leaving so many facts out as usual to fit his agenda.

That "stacked" '78 Lakers team went 8-12 without Kareem(8-13 if you include a game he left early).

The '79 Lakers had Wilkes playing power forward and their backcourt was so bad defensively that Gus Williams lit them up for over 30 ppg in the playoffs.

The team was very flawed, and how about the '75 Bucks? They went 3-14 without him. And the '76 Lakers had been a 30-52 team the year before Kareem got there and they traded key players to get him, so in reality, their talent level was even worse outside of Kareem.

Kareem was not playing on a bunch of great teams throughout the 70's.

Your right about Jlauber, as usual, not being able to tell the whole story.

However Kareem played on teams with supporting casts as good or comparable to the best in the NBA at that time six out of eight seasons from '72-'79. Injuries derailed them in '73 and '77 but otherwise they just didn't get the job done.

The more I learn about that era and Kareem the more I see him as clearly the NBA's most talented individual player. Every opponent seemed to speak of him, as they did Wilt before, as an unstoppable individual force. Even when you beat his team, Kareem usually got the best of you.

That said, I also am starting to see that Kareem was not a very good teammate on the court or off it. Players frequently had better seasons before and after they left Kareem's side. Most players had to greatly adjust their game to gear it around the big fella, which while sensible against 9 out of 10 teams, was guaranteed to fail against a team with comparable total talented and a team philosophy.

Kareem's teammates had to wait for Kareem to get down the court, set up in his position and than let him make the play (either score or initial pass) 75% of the time. Not only does that stifle a players offensive impact, but it discourages them from giving a maximum effort on defense.

I think the combination of Kareem only playing his style (though he did make a short switch to the high post during the Dantley year) and the fact that he was only close with a few teammates ever destroyed any chance for those teams to win titles against the NBA's best.

Kareem's style worked best for him and made him better than any other player in the league regardless of who his teammates were, but it did not maximize any other players talents and because they did not care about each other enough and because their was so much turnover, the teams never developed the chemistry needed to win the title without injuries and upsets derailing the other elite team(s).

That's why Magic is BY FAR the player who had the greater impact on the Lakers.

It was Magic's team from the Riley hire on. Now that said, I think Kareem was a better and more skilled player than Magic through at least the 1984-85 season. But there is a reason that not just the MVP voters and all-NBA voters, but also the Sporting News, SI and Sport magazine all put more votes towards Magic than Kareem every season from '82 on. Magic was the greater player, Kareem the greater talent (by a good measure)

[jlauber]

:oldlol: at JLauber leaving so many facts out as usual to fit his agenda.

That "stacked" '78 Lakers team went 8-12 without Kareem(8-13 if you include a game he left early).

The '79 Lakers had Wilkes playing power forward and their backcourt was so bad defensively that Gus Williams lit them up for over 30 ppg in the playoffs.

The team was very flawed, and how about the '75 Bucks? They went 3-14 without him. And the '76 Lakers had been a 30-52 team the year before Kareem got there and they traded key players to get him, so in reality, their talent level was even worse outside of Kareem.

Kareem was not playing on a bunch of great teams throughout the 70's.

I didn't leave ANY facts out.

I credited Kareem with playing well in MOST of the '74 Finals...except, he DID CHOKE against Cowens in game seven, at at home.

You say that Kareem's stacked team only went 8-12 without him in '78. So what? He was their center, and their best player. And with all of that talent, they went 37-25 with Kareem. That is nothing to write home about in a league in which the championship team went 44-38.

The '79 Lakers, to a MAN, were more talented than the '79 Sonics. And I already addressed Wilkes at the PF position. His numbers were amost identical when he played PF on the '75 Warriors (and NO ONE would claim that the '75 Warriors were more talented than the '79 Lakers), yet, that Warrior team swept a 60-22 Bullets team in the Finals...a team that had Elvin Hayes at PF. Furthermore, Wilkes was LA's starting PF in the '78 season, too. Why is that significant? Because the Sonics, who dispatched the Lakers in the first round of '78 playoffs, lost to the 44-38 Bullets in the Finals...a team with Hayes at PF.

The BIGGEST reason the '75 Bucks folded was NOT Kareem missing 16 games (they still only went 35-31 WITH Kareem), but that Oscar had retired. Oscar was the LEADER of those Buck teams in the early 70's...as was Magic with LA in the 80's. And, I know that Lucius Allen missed games, too, but he played with Kareem in LA the very next year, and the Lakers still only went 40-42. That team had Cazzie Russell and Gail Goodrich, too...so it's not the cupboard was bare. Meanwhile, the Bucks, with Elmore Smith at center, still went 38-44.

As for Kareem not playing with a bunch of great teams in the 70's. HUH???? The 70-71 Bucks went 66-16. Then they went 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23...all with Oscar, Dandridge, McGlocklin, and Allen. In fact, after they won a title in that 70-71 season, they were probably a unanimous pick to not only win the title in '72, but to win many more in the decade.

And, the "front-running" Kareem who put up unworldly numbers during the regular season, was SIGNIFICANTLY worse in the post-season. He shot .405 against Thurmond (and was outscored by him), and then watched in horror as Wilt was blocking his "unblockable" sky-hook all over the gym in the last four games of the WCF's.

Then, in the '73 season, he took his 60-22 Bucks, and with Oscar having a brilliant playoff series against the Warriors, down in flames against the 47-35 Warriors. Kareem quite simply shot his team right out of the series. Once again, Thurmond held him to 22.8 ppg and this time, on .428 shooting. BTW, Nate and his Warriors were then crushed by Wilt and his 60-22 Lakers in the very next series.

And yes, Kareem was great in '74...except in that game seven.

And, his choke jobs extended into the 80's, as well. He was battered by Moses in the '81 playoffs (and once again shot well under the league average at .462.) He was pounded by Moses again in the '83 Finals. Magic was called "Tragic" in the the '84 Finals, but unlike Magic, who shot .560 in that series (as well as leading LA in rebounding) Kareem shot less than 50%, and he was awful in game five, shooting 7-25. In the '86 regular season, Kareem just murdered Hakeem. Then, in the playoffs, he was outplayed by him. By the '87 season, Kareem was a "third wheel." And he was simply AWFUL in the '88 post-season, and HORRIFIC in the Finals (13 ppg, 4 rpg, and .414 from the field.) And no one mentions his game seven, when he went 2-7, 3 rebounds, 5 PF's, FOUR points, and was a statue on defense, in his 29 minutes. And finally, in his last season, he was worthless in the Finals.

Yes, he had many brilliant seasons, and post-seasons, but he had his share where he played poorly, and in some he was awful. And, he was outplayed by opposing centers in several...even in his prime.

[Helix]

However Kareem played on teams with supporting casts as good or comparable to the best in the NBA at that time six out of eight seasons from '72-'79. Injuries derailed them in '73 and '77 but otherwise they just didn't get the job done.

The more I learn about that era and Kareem the more I see him as clearly the NBA's most talented individual player. Every opponent seemed to speak of him, as they did Wilt before, as an unstoppable individual force. Even when you beat his team, Kareem usually got the best of you.

That said, I also am starting to see that Kareem was not a very good teammate on the court or off it. Players frequently had better seasons before and after they left Kareem's side. Most players had to greatly adjust their game to gear it around the big fella, which while sensible against 9 out of 10 teams, was guaranteed to fail against a team with comparable total talented and a team philosophy.

Kareem's teammates had to wait for Kareem to get down the court, set up in his position and than let him make the play (either score or initial pass) 75% of the time. Not only does that stifle a players offensive impact, but it discourages them from giving a maximum effort on defense.

I think the combination of Kareem only playing his style (though he did make a short switch to the high post during the Dantley year) and the fact that he was only close with a few teammates ever destroyed any chance for those teams to win titles against the NBA's best.

Kareem's style worked best for him and made him better than any other player in the league regardless of who his teammates were, but it did not maximize any other players talents and because they did not care about each other enough and because their was so much turnover, the teams never developed the chemistry needed to win the title without injuries and upsets derailing the other elite team(s).

That's why Magic is BY FAR the player who had the greater impact on the Lakers.

It was Magic's team from the Riley hire on. Now that said, I think Kareem was a better and more skilled player than Magic through at least the 1984-85 season. But there is a reason that not just the MVP voters and all-NBA voters, but also the Sporting News, SI and Sport magazine all put more votes towards Magic than Kareem every season from '82 on. Magic was the greater player, Kareem the greater talent (by a good measure)

I agree with this. And.....Magic was simply irreplaceable. I can't think of any other player who could have brought to that Laker team what Magic did. That can't be said about Kareem. I can think of at least one center who I believe would have elevated that Showtime Laker team to possibly as high a level (if not even higher) as the Boston dynasty. That center was Wilt. He was a much more dominant defender, shot blocker, and rebounder than Kareem, and he could be a dominant scorer when needed. I was a big Showtime Laker fan back in the 80's, and the one "knock" against them was that they were a finesse team and could be beaten by a good physical team. That wouldn't have happened with Wilt.

[jlauber]

I agree with this. And.....Magic was simply irreplaceable. I can't think of any other player who could have brought to that Laker team what Magic did. That can't be said about Kareem. I can think of at least one center who I believe would have elevated that Showtime Laker team to possibly as high a level (if not even higher) as the Boston dynasty. That center was Wilt. He was a much more dominant defender, shot blocker, and rebounder than Kareem, and he could be a dominant scorer when needed. I was a big Showtime Laker fan back in the 80's, and the one "knock" against them was that they were a finesse team and could be beaten by a good physical team. That wouldn't have happened with Wilt.

Excellent post...and I will carry it even further. Had Wilt had Magic for 10 seasons (either in his actual career...or if he swapped places with Kareem in the 80's), and Chamberlain would have had at least six rings, too. In fact, a PRIME Chamberlain, in the 80's, and teamed with Magic, might have won a title every year. Chamberlain would have scored nearly as much, and probably on a much higher efficiency as he did in the 60's, and would have easily dominated the glass and defensively. My god, even a Wilt in the twilight of his career was a better rebounder than a prime Kareem. He would have just killed the much weaker centers of the 80's. And, Wilt was a considerably better defender, even late in his career, than a prime Kareem was. ANY version of Wilt, and paired with Magic (and Worthy, Scott, et. al) would have formed an almost unbeatable team in the 80's. Think about this...Wilt ignited the blistering '72 Laker fast-break...a team that started four players over the age of 30, and STILL averaged 121 ppg. Can you imagine a younger Wilt, with the incredible speed of the mid-80's Lakers? They might have averaged 140 ppg.

[bdreason]

:oldlol: at JLauber leaving so many facts out as usual to fit his agenda.

That "stacked" '78 Lakers team went 8-12 without Kareem(8-13 if you include a game he left early).

The '79 Lakers had Wilkes playing power forward and their backcourt was so bad defensively that Gus Williams lit them up for over 30 ppg in the playoffs.

The team was very flawed, and how about the '75 Bucks? They went 3-14 without him. And the '76 Lakers had been a 30-52 team the year before Kareem got there and they traded key players to get him, so in reality, their talent level was even worse outside of Kareem.

Kareem was not playing on a bunch of great teams throughout the 70's.


jlauber claiming Kareem's Lakers teams in the 70's were 'stacked' is laughable at best. The only reason these teams were even in contention is because they had the best player in the league. Without Kareem, these teams wouldn't even sniff the postseason.



You have to understand, the only way for jlauber to argue Wilt over Kareem is to somehow reduce Kareem's accomplishments... because Kareems career accomplishments CRUSH Wilt.

[jlauber]

jlauber claiming Kareem's Lakers teams in the 70's were 'stacked' is laughable at best. The only reason these teams were even in contention is because they had the best player in the league. Without Kareem, these teams wouldn't even sniff the postseason.



You have to understand, the only way for jlauber to argue Wilt over Kareem is to somehow reduce Kareem's accomplishments... because Kareems career accomplishments CRUSH Wilt.

Kareem's accomplishments CRUSH Wilts????

Let's see here...Kareem played 20 years, while Wilt played 14...

Assist titles. Wilt holds a 1-0 edge.
Scoring titles. Wilt holds a 7-2 edge.
FG% titles. Wilt holds a 9-1 edge.
Rebounding titles. Wilt holds an 11-1 edge.

Defensively, we KNOW that when the two played TOGETHER in the NBA, that Wilt held a 2-0 edge in first-team all defensive selections. And, unfortunately, we don't know how many Blocked Shot titles that Wilt would have had (Kareem had four), BUT, the general consensus, when the two actually played TOGETHER in their four years, was the Wilt was the better shot-blocker...and that was a Wilt who was basically in the twilight of his career.

And, after all of the above...how about comparing their NBA RECORDS??? At last count, in 2009, Wilt held some 130 NBA records. Kareem has a few, mainly due to longevity, but I seriously doubt he has even ONE-FOURTH as many.

But, yep...Kareem' career CRUSHED Wilt's.

:facepalm

[AMISTILLILL]

Hmmm,

BEFORE Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem playing alongside some of the most talented players in the league...and were basically either early round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

WITH Magic...LA IMMEDIATELY won a title. They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to NINE Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and FIVE titles.

AFTER Kareem...the Lakers actually IMPROVED the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year. Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals.

AFTER Magic...the Lakers IMMEDIATELY plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.


BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in EIGHT of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

Now, you tell me who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years.

I hate the Lakers, but excellent post. :rockon:

[ShaqAttack3234]

I didn't leave ANY facts out.

I credited Kareem with playing well in MOST of the '74 Finals...except, he DID CHOKE against Cowens in game seven, at at home.

You say that Kareem's stacked team only went 8-12 without him in '78. So what? He was their center, and their best player. And with all of that talent, they went 37-25 with Kareem. That is nothing to write home about in a league in which the championship team went 44-38.

The '79 Lakers, to a MAN, were more talented than the '79 Sonics. And I already addressed Wilkes at the PF position. His numbers were amost identical when he played PF on the '75 Warriors (and NO ONE would claim that the '75 Warriors were more talented than the '79 Lakers), yet, that Warrior team swept a 60-22 Bullets team in the Finals...a team that had Elvin Hayes at PF. Furthermore, Wilkes was LA's starting PF in the '78 season, too. Why is that significant? Because the Sonics, who dispatched the Lakers in the first round of '78 playoffs, lost to the 44-38 Bullets in the Finals...a team with Hayes at PF.

The BIGGEST reason the '75 Bucks folded was NOT Kareem missing 16 games (they still only went 35-31 WITH Kareem), but that Oscar had retired. Oscar was the LEADER of those Buck teams in the early 70's...as was Magic with LA in the 80's. And, I know that Lucius Allen missed games, too, but he played with Kareem in LA the very next year, and the Lakers still only went 40-42. That team had Cazzie Russell and Gail Goodrich, too...so it's not the cupboard was bare. Meanwhile, the Bucks, with Elmore Smith at center, still went 38-44.

As for Kareem not playing with a bunch of great teams in the 70's. HUH???? The 70-71 Bucks went 66-16. Then they went 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23...all with Oscar, Dandridge, McGlocklin, and Allen. In fact, after they won a title in that 70-71 season, they were probably a unanimous pick to not only win the title in '72, but to win many more in the decade.

And, the "front-running" Kareem who put up unworldly numbers during the regular season, was SIGNIFICANTLY worse in the post-season. He shot .405 against Thurmond (and was outscored by him), and then watched in horror as Wilt was blocking his "unblockable" sky-hook all over the gym in the last four games of the WCF's.

Then, in the '73 season, he took his 60-22 Bucks, and with Oscar having a brilliant playoff series against the Warriors, down in flames against the 47-35 Warriors. Kareem quite simply shot his team right out of the series. Once again, Thurmond held him to 22.8 ppg and this time, on .428 shooting. BTW, Nate and his Warriors were then crushed by Wilt and his 60-22 Lakers in the very next series.

And yes, Kareem was great in '74...except in that game seven.

And, his choke jobs extended into the 80's, as well. He was battered by Moses in the '81 playoffs (and once again shot well under the league average at .462.) He was pounded by Moses again in the '83 Finals. Magic was called "Tragic" in the the '84 Finals, but unlike Magic, who shot .560 in that series (as well as leading LA in rebounding) Kareem shot less than 50%, and he was awful in game five, shooting 7-25. In the '86 regular season, Kareem just murdered Hakeem. Then, in the playoffs, he was outplayed by him. By the '87 season, Kareem was a "third wheel." And he was simply AWFUL in the '88 post-season, and HORRIFIC in the Finals (13 ppg, 4 rpg, and .414 from the field.) And no one mentions his game seven, when he went 2-7, 3 rebounds, 5 PF's, FOUR points, and was a statue on defense, in his 29 minutes. And finally, in his last season, he was worthless in the Finals.

Yes, he had many brilliant seasons, and post-seasons, but he had his share where he played poorly, and in some he was awful. And, he was outplayed by opposing centers in several...even in his prime.

The fact that some of Kareem's teams would have such a mediocre/crappy record without him and then an impressive one with him should speak more to the greatness of Kareem, not the talent around him.

Hell, look at Wilt's '68 Sixers, they went 62-20, yet he left them the following year and they STILL went 55-27, and that was with Luke Jackson playing only 25 games. And how about the Laker team he joined? They had won over 50 games and reached the finals the year before Wilt got there.

And :oldlol: at Kareem being "battered" by Moses in '81, oh yeah, and Moses replaced Caldwell Jones on a team that had gone 58-24 and made the finals the previous year without him.

Those are stacked teams, not teams that can't even approach .500 without you.

And back to the '79 Lakers, having Wilkes at PF was considered a problem at the time, I've seen this mentioned in games back then and in articles, so I really don't care much about your biased opinions and revisionist history. And you can break down talent all you want, but when Gus Williams is lighting up your backcourt for 30+ ppg, it's pretty hard to win. Lacking a stopper on the perimeter was also considered a problem. That's why Haywood and Chones were key for the 1980 Lakers and so was Michael Cooper becoming their stopper. Those factors combined with Magic's arrival are why they went from a 47-35 second round team to a 60-22 championship team,

You like to complain about Simmons and accuse him of not researching the 60's, but you don't seem to have great knowledge of the 70's Laker teams. If you did, then you'd know that about Gus Williams absolutely torching their backcourt and PF being considered a really weak position for them in '79.

[jlauber]

The fact that some of Kareem's teams would have such a mediocre/crappy record without him and then an impressive one with him should speak more to the greatness of Kareem, not the talent around him.

Hell, look at Wilt's '68 Sixers, they went 62-20, yet he left them the following year and they STILL went 55-27, and that was with Luke Jackson playing only 25 games. And how about the Laker team he joined? They had won over 50 games and reached the finals the year before Wilt got there.

And :oldlol: at Kareem being "battered" by Moses in '81, oh yeah, and Moses replaced Caldwell Jones on a team that had gone 58-24 and made the finals the previous year without him.

Those are stacked teams, not teams that can't even approach .500 without you.

And back to the '79 Lakers, having Wilkes at PF was considered a problem at the time, I've seen this mentioned in games back then and in articles, so I really don't care much about your biased opinions and revisionist history. And you can break down talent all you want, but when Gus Williams is lighting up your backcourt for 30+ ppg, it's pretty hard to win. Lacking a stopper on the perimeter was also considered a problem. That's why Haywood and Chones were key for the 1980 Lakers and so was Michael Cooper becoming their stopper. Those factors combined with Magic's arrival are why they went from a 47-35 second round team to a 60-22 championship team,

You like to complain about Simmons and accuse him of not researching the 60's, but you don't seem to have great knowledge of the 70's Laker teams. If you did, then you'd know that about Gus Williams absolutely torching their backcourt and PF being considered a really weak position for them in '79.

Regarding the Wilt trade...

One, the Sixers acquired three players for Wilt, one who was an all-star in '68. The other was journeyman center Darrell Imhoff. The two had combined for 29.2 ppg and 15.1 rpg in '68 with LA. Keep those numbers in mind, because I will get back to them again.

Secondly, the Sixers declined seven games in the REGULAR season over Wilt's 68 team, but the ACTUAL decline was considerably more dramatic. Take a look at the Sixers in the those two post-seasons. In Wilt's '68 season, they wiped out the Knicks in six games (and with Wilt leading BOTH teams in scoring, rebounding, AND assists.) Then, in the ECF's, and against Boston, ...even without HOFer Billy Cunningham...they were still up against the Celtics, 3-1. However, in game five, BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones sustained injuries, and were basically worthless the last three games. On top of all of that, Wilt, himself, was fighting THREE separate foot and leg injuries. With ALL of that, Wilt's Sixers lost a game seven by FOUR points.

THEN, take a look at the '69 Sixers... who had already declined by seven games over the course of the regular season,...were then shellacked by the 48-34 Celtics in the first round, 4-1.

BTW, the two major players that Philly acquired for Wilt, Imhoff and Clark, were the Philly's two best players in that series. Clark averaged 19.4 ppg on .519 shooting, and Imhoff averaged 18.2 ppg, 16.4 rpg, and shot .500...and the Sixers were STILL blown out by the 48-34 Celtics. Of course, no one EVER mentions that fact, either. Think about that...Wilt's "replacements" collectively averaged 37.6 ppg, on well over 50% shooting, and with 20.2 rpg...and the Sixers were STILL wiped out by an aged team. Kind of puts Wilt's TRUE impact into perspective, doesn't it? For those that look at Wilt's career, and just blindly say it was all about the numbers...well, there is strong evidence to the contrary. His IMPACT was much greater than just his already unfathomable numbers.


Furthermore, how about Wilt's Sixers in '67? They shattered virtually every team record at the time, on a runaway record of 68-13. Then, they BURIED the 60-21 Celtics in the ECF's, 4-1 (and only a four point loss in game four prevented a sweep) en route to an overwhelming title. Incidently, that 68-13 mark is STILL a team record.

So, in looking at that Wilt trade, you can see the REAL impact that Wilt had on the Sixers. They almost won a title in '68 with half of their starters and a key HOF player off the bench, nursing injuries, or out altogether. And, of course, you saw just exactly what a HEALTHY 76er team was capable of just the year before that. They had gone from a DOMINANT title in '67, with Wilt...to a FIRST ROUND blowout loss in '69, withOUT Wilt.


Now, on to the Lakers of '69. I already mentioned the fact that they lost Clark and Imhoff to Philly, and their 29.2 ppg and 15.1 rpg. HOWEVER, they also ALSO lost HOFer Gail Goodrich in the expansion draft...along with his 13.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg. So, the reality was, Chamberlain was essentially replacing THREE key players from their '68 team, which had gone 52-30 and were bounced by Boston, 4-2 in the Finals. Think about that,... Wilt was asked to replace a total of 42 ppg and 17.6 rpg.

And the Lakers depth took a serious hit, as well. They had very little. And the player who was asked to replace Clark, Johnny Egan, may have cost LA the title in game four of the Finals...when, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87, and with ball, and only seconds remaining...he lost the ball, which led to a Sam Jones game-winner at the buzzer...in a series in which Boston won game seven by TWO points (and with Chamberlain's incompetent coach leaving Wilt on the bench in the last few minutes.) How critical was that ONE play? Well, the Lakers easily beat Boston in game five, 117-104, to go up 3-2. Had Egan been able to hold onto the ball, and not only does LA win the title...they win it with a 4-1 series romp.

In any case, with an incompetent coach, and with a declining Baylor (who was just AWFUL in the post-season), and with West missing 20 games,...and with Wilt basically replacing THREE players...the Lakers STILL went 55-27, which was a team RECORD, at the time. And you certainly couldn't fault Wilt, who sacrificed HIS scoring so that Van Breda's "genuis" offense would allow Baylor to fire blanks. Wilt "only" scored 20.5 ppg, BUT he LED the NBA in rebounding at 21.1 rpg, and LED the NBA in FG% at .583.

Finally, how about the actual TOTALITY of that trade. The Sixers went from a 68-13 title team in '67, and a 62-20 runaway regular season leader, who were ravaged by injuries, which resulted in a four point game seven loss to the eventual champion Celtics...down to a 55-27 first round loser in the very next year. And it would get worse. The Sixers continued to decline each year after that, and by Wilt's last season, 72-73, they finished with an all-time worst record of 9-73.

Meanwhile, Wilt not only made an IMMEDIATE impact with the Lakers, taking them to their then best ever record in his first year...but he would take the Lakers to FOUR Finals in his FIVE years in LA...including their first ever title in Los Angeles in the 71-72 season..AND a 69-13 W-L record, which is STILL a team record. In Wilt's LAST season, they went 60-22, and with West with two injured knees, they lost four close games in the Finals.

Then, Wilt "retired", and the Lakers immediately fell to 47-35, and first round 4-1 playoff loss to Kareem's Bucks. They followed that up with a 30-52 record. And, of course, they then acquired Kareem...but they continued in mediocrity for four seasons, before the arrival of Magic. The rest, as they say, was history.

[KingBeasley08]

^ I honestly think that guy just writes a lot to get his point across. The way he writes is saying Wilt is God

Sorry bro, only 2 titles :lol

[jlauber]

^ I honestly think that guy just writes a lot to get his point across. The way he writes is saying Wilt is God

Sorry bro, only 2 titles :lol

In a TEAM sport in which he was the greatest INDIVIDUAL to have ever played the game...

As Oscar said..."The RECORD BOOK does not lie."

[bizil]

Over the long haul Magic. Gotta remember Kareem was in the L for like 10 years before Magic even got there. Kareem was 32 or 33 and in his prime. Over time though Magic grew to have the most impact on the Lakers. On a GOAT list, I would rank Kareem higher. But a GOAT list combines team accolades, longevity being great, and solo numbers. But as far as talent I tend to compare perimeter guys to perimeter guys and big men to big men. So in that sense, I feel the premier perimeter players of all time are MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird, and Big O. As far as PF's and C's go, I think Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, and Duncan-KG-Barkley are the best. As far as talent, Duncan, KG,and Barkley are so damn close to me I can't decide. But on a GOAT list for PF's, Duncan is the man.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Regarding the Wilt trade...

One, the Sixers acquired three players for Wilt, one who was an all-star in '68. The other was journeyman center Darrell Imhoff. The two had combined for 29.2 ppg and 15.1 rpg in '68 with LA. Keep those numbers in mind, because I will get back to them again.

Secondly, the Sixers declined seven games in the REGULAR season over Wilt's 68 team, but the ACTUAL decline was considerably more dramatic. Take a look at the Sixers in the those two post-seasons. In Wilt's '68 season, they wiped out the Knicks in six games (and with Wilt leading BOTH teams in scoring, rebounding, AND assists.) Then, in the ECF's, and against Boston, ...even without HOFer Billy Cunningham...they were still up against the Celtics, 3-1. However, in game five, BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones sustained injuries, and were basically worthless the last three games. On top of all of that, Wilt, himself, was fighting THREE separate foot and leg injuries. With ALL of that, Wilt's Sixers lost a game seven by FOUR points.

THEN, take a look at the '69 Sixers... who had already declined by seven games over the course of the regular season,...were then shellacked by the 48-34 Celtics in the first round, 4-1.

BTW, the two major players that Philly acquired for Wilt, Imhoff and Clark, were the Philly's two best players in that series. Clark averaged 19.4 ppg on .519 shooting, and Imhoff averaged 18.2 ppg, 16.4 rpg, and shot .500...and the Sixers were STILL blown out by the 48-34 Celtics. Of course, no one EVER mentions that fact, either. Think about that...Wilt's "replacements" collectively averaged 37.6 ppg, on well over 50% shooting, and with 20.2 rpg...and the Sixers were STILL wiped out by an aged team. Kind of puts Wilt's TRUE impact into perspective, doesn't it? For those that look at Wilt's career, and just blindly say it was all about the numbers...well, there is strong evidence to the contrary. His IMPACT was much greater than just his already unfathomable numbers.


Furthermore, how about Wilt's Sixers in '67? They shattered virtually every team record at the time, on a runaway record of 68-13. Then, they BURIED the 60-21 Celtics in the ECF's, 4-1 (and only a four point loss in game four prevented a sweep) en route to an overwhelming title. Incidently, that 68-13 mark is STILL a team record.

So, in looking at that Wilt trade, you can see the REAL impact that Wilt had on the Sixers. They almost won a title in '68 with half of their starters and a key HOF player off the bench, nursing injuries, or out altogether. And, of course, you saw just exactly what a HEALTHY 76er team was capable of just the year before that. They had gone from a DOMINANT title in '67, with Wilt...to a FIRST ROUND blowout loss in '69, withOUT Wilt.


Now, on to the Lakers of '69. I already mentioned the fact that they lost Clark and Imhoff to Philly, and their 29.2 ppg and 15.1 rpg. HOWEVER, they also ALSO lost HOFer Gail Goodrich in the expansion draft...along with his 13.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg. So, the reality was, Chamberlain was essentially replacing THREE key players from their '68 team, which had gone 52-30 and were bounced by Boston, 4-2 in the Finals. Think about that,... Wilt was asked to replace a total of 42 ppg and 17.6 rpg.

And the Lakers depth took a serious hit, as well. They had very little. And the player who was asked to replace Clark, Johnny Egan, may have cost LA the title in game four of the Finals...when, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87, and with ball, and only seconds remaining...he lost the ball, which led to a Sam Jones game-winner at the buzzer...in a series in which Boston won game seven by TWO points (and with Chamberlain's incompetent coach leaving Wilt on the bench in the last few minutes.) How critical was that ONE play? Well, the Lakers easily beat Boston in game five, 117-104, to go up 3-2. Had Egan been able to hold onto the ball, and not only does LA win the title...they win it with a 4-1 series romp.

In any case, with an incompetent coach, and with a declining Baylor (who was just AWFUL in the post-season), and with West missing 20 games,...and with Wilt basically replacing THREE players...the Lakers STILL went 55-27, which was a team RECORD, at the time. And you certainly couldn't fault Wilt, who sacrificed HIS scoring so that Van Breda's "genuis" offense would allow Baylor to fire blanks. Wilt "only" scored 20.5 ppg, BUT he LED the NBA in rebounding at 21.1 rpg, and LED the NBA in FG% at .583.

Finally, how about the actual TOTALITY of that trade. The Sixers went from a 68-13 title team in '67, and a 62-20 runaway regular season leader, who were ravaged by injuries, which resulted in a four point game seven loss to the eventual champion Celtics...down to a 55-27 first round loser in the very next year. And it would get worse. The Sixers continued to decline each year after that, and by Wilt's last season, 72-73, they finished with an all-time worst record of 9-73.

Meanwhile, Wilt not only made an IMMEDIATE impact with the Lakers, taking them to their then best ever record in his first year...but he would take the Lakers to FOUR Finals in his FIVE years in LA...including their first ever title in Los Angeles in the 71-72 season..AND a 69-13 W-L record, which is STILL a team record. In Wilt's LAST season, they went 60-22, and with West with two injured knees, they lost four close games in the Finals.

Then, Wilt "retired", and the Lakers immediately fell to 47-35, and first round 4-1 playoff loss to Kareem's Bucks. They followed that up with a 30-52 record. And, of course, they then acquired Kareem...but they continued in mediocrity for four seasons, before the arrival of Magic. The rest, as they say, was history.

:oldlol: You still haven't addressed Gus Williams lighting up the Lakers backcourt in the 1979 playoffs.

And as far as the Lakers dropping off after Wilt retired, hmmm, they declined by 13, but how about mentioning that Jerry West also played in just 31 games that year as opposed to 69 games in Wilt's last year.

So you criticize Kareem for not winning it all with teams that were well below .500 without him, yet make excuses when Wilt couldn't win with teams that were 50+ win teams without him. The Lakers still had their superstar duo from the previous year that had been easily the biggest reason for them winning 50+ games. And regardless of your excuses, 55-27 is a hell of a record for Philly to have after Wilt left. Some of your excuses are valid, but they only go so far when they consider that the '69 team also didn't have Luke Jackson for the majority of the season. And no, I'm not claiming Wilt didn't make them better, just that he had A LOT of help around that time, and I don't believe he made as big of an impact on his team's W/L record as you'd hope for a top 10 player of all time with the exceptions being '67 and '72.

[jlauber]

:oldlol: You still haven't addressed Gus Williams lighting up the Lakers backcourt in the 1979 playoffs.

And as far as the Lakers dropping off after Wilt retired, hmmm, they declined by 13, but how about mentioning that Jerry West also played in just 31 games that year as opposed to 69 games in Wilt's last year.

So you criticize Kareem for not winning it all with teams that were well below .500 without him, yet make excuses when Wilt couldn't win with teams that were 50+ win teams without him. The Lakers still had their superstar duo from the previous year that had been easily the biggest reason for them winning 50+ games. And regardless of your excuses, 55-27 is a hell of a record for Philly to have after Wilt left. Some of your excuses are valid, but they only go so far when they consider that the '69 team also didn't have Luke Jackson for the majority of the season. And no, I'm not claiming Wilt didn't make them better, just that he had A LOT of help around that time, and I don't believe he made as big of an impact on his team's W/L record as you'd hope for a top 10 player of all time with the exceptions being '67 and '72.

So basically,you're saying Gus Williams was a more dominant player than Kareem in the '79 playoffs.

I have already covered Wilt in my previous post. The Sixers were DRAMTICALLY better WITH him, and DRAMATICALLY worse withOUT him. That was reflected not only in the regular season W-L records, but it was really exposed in the playoffs. Chamberlain made the Sixers a championship team (and they not been ravaged by injuries in '68 they most certainly would have repeated)...and they were first round cannon-fodder withOUT him. And that was with his two "replacements" averaging a combined 37.6 ppg on .510 shooting, and 20.2 rpg.

And despite an incompetent coach, a declining Baylor (who, once again was just awful in the post-season), West missing 20 games, and Wilt having to replace 42.0 ppg and 17.6 rpg...the Lakers STILL had their best-ever record in Los Angeles (which, of course Wilt's '72 Lakers would destroy a few years later.) And had Egan been able to hold onto the ball in game four of the Finals...well, LA would have won that series 4-1. I could go into further detail on that series if you like, but I won't, since I'm sure you have read it many times by now.

[jlauber]

And no, I'm not claiming Wilt didn't make them better, just that he had A LOT of help around that time, and I don't believe he made as big of an impact on his team's W/L record as you'd hope for a top 10 player of all time with the exceptions being '67 and '72.

Another myth. Take a look at Wilt's CAREER for cryingoutloud. He came to a LAST PLACE team in his rookie year, and led them to a 49-26 record in his first season. Which, BTW, was a TEAM RECORD at the time. And he took that same basic roster two years later, and with all of his teammates shooting .397, or worse in the playoffs, to a game seven, two-point loss against the 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers.

Mid-way thru the '64-65 season he was traded to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before...and they only finished with a 40-40 mark. BUT, he LED them to a 3-1 series romp over the 48-32 Royals...and then took that cast to a game seven, ONE-point loss against the 62-18 Celtics and their SIX HOFers.

The very next season they had the best record in the league. Then, in his 66-67 season, he took them to a 68-13 mark, and a dominating world title. And that 68-13 mark is STILL a team record.

He was traded to the 52-30 Lakers, who had easily been beaten by Boston in '68, for TWO quality players (and LA lost a third player, Goodrich, to the expansion draft.) He guided that team to a team record of 55-27 in his very first season. And, of course, a few years later, they went 69-13...which is STILL their best record ever...and a first world title for the city of LA. In fact, he took the Lakers to FOUR Finals in FIVE seasons.

After he retired, the Lakers immediately declined dramatically, and did not reach another Finals in the their next six seasons, and most with average records (and two losing one's...including one WITH Kareem.) In fact, it wasn't until Magic arrived that the Lakers returned to greatness.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: why are you bringing up the Sixers record from '63-'64 when they were above .500 before Wilt got there IN THE 1964-1965 season.

And who the hell said Gus was more dominant than Kareem? The Sonics were a 52 win team during the season when Gus averaged 19 ppg, yet the Lakers were a 47 win team that season, now vs the incompetent defense of the Laker backcourt, Gus saw his scoring average rise to over 30 ppg, now if the Sonics win more than the Lakers with Gus at 19 ppg, why is it some surprise that they beat them with Gus averaging something like 11-12 more ppg than he did during the regular season?

[the_wise_one]

Kareem. Magic was lucky he joined a team with a GOAT candidate.