Top 3 Power Forwards of All-Time

[ImmortalD24]

http://i53.tinypic.com/otja4p.jpg

IMO.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki

And to think.. all three played in the same era, and at one point, the same conference (with Shaq and Kobe) ! 00's era! :bowdown:

[SavageMode]

The Order should actually be.

1. Dirk
2.KG/Duncan

k thnx.

[LBJ4MVP23]

Dirk over Barkley, Malone, and Pettit at this point in his career? Ok buddy.

[Scoooter]

Duncan, Barkley, etc... Great era for PFs though. :applause:

[L.Kizzle]

http://i53.tinypic.com/otja4p.jpg

IMO.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki

And to think.. all three played in the same era, and at one point, the same conference (with Shaq and Kobe) ! 00's era! :bowdown:
Take off Kobe, and you have the four best.

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/111/kevin-garnett-chris-webber-dirk-nowitzki-tim-duncan-kobe-bryant-may-2002-inside-stuff-magazine_11193c6f8e4406c48e96fedb549a92a7.jpg

[DStebb716]

Tim Duncan.
Charles Barkley.
Karl Malone.
Dirk.
KG.

[EvanW]

I'm not putting Dirk above Malone until these playoffs are over and done with.

Here's how I have it.

1. Duncan
2. Mchale
3. Malone
4. KG
5. Dirk

If Dallas wins it all, after the playoffs Dirk has had, I cannot put him as low as 5th.

IMO he leapfrogs KG and Malone if Dallas wins. If he gets his ring, this will be looked at as one of the single greatest overall playoff performances of all time.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm not putting Dirk above Malone until these playoffs are over and done with.

Here's how I have it.

1. Duncan
2. Mchale
3. Malone
4. KG
5. Dirk

If Dallas wins it all, after the playoffs Dirk has had, I cannot put him as low as 5th.

IMO he leapfrogs KG and Malone if Dallas wins. If he gets his ring, this will be looked at as one of the single greatest overall playoff performances of all time.
Why the hell is McHale so overrated? Where is Barkley and Bob Pettit?

[MavsPoke]

Tim Duncan.
Charles Barkley.
Karl Malone.
Dirk.
KG.

This guy got the right answer. Nice job.

[EvanW]

Why the hell is McHale so overrated? Where is Barkley and Bob Pettit?How is McHale overrated? Do you not count defense or something? :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

I'm not putting Dirk above Malone until these playoffs are over and done with.

Here's how I have it.

1. Duncan
2. Mchale
3. Malone
4. KG
5. Dirk

If Dallas wins it all, after the playoffs Dirk has had, I cannot put him as low as 5th.

IMO he leapfrogs KG and Malone if Dallas wins. If he gets his ring, this will be looked at as one of the single greatest overall playoff performances of all time.

One of the worst lists i've ever seen. McHale is not top 5 all time....and no Pettit? LOL

1. Duncan
2. Pettit
3. KG
4. Malone
5. Barkley
6. Dirk

After Duncan its starting to get very debatable between the next 5 guys. I would have no problem with those guys being in any order.

[EvanW]

I mean obviously you do count defense since you think Pettit is better, even though McHale was on a whole other level, offensively.

[L.Kizzle]

How is McHale overrated? Do you not count defense or something? :confusedshrug:
I do, but the second greatest PF ever? Dude has really know personal accolades. He has like 6 All-Star games, 1 All-NBA Team (just one) and a bunch of All-D Teams. Is there any other player considered the 2nd best at their position with 1 All-NBA Team?

In his prime, he was gettin beaten out by guys like Nique Wilkins, Bernard King, Alex English, Tom Chambers and young Barkley and Malone.

[dyna]

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Malone
4. Barkley
5. Dirk

[Scoooter]

Take off Kobe, and you have the four best.

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/111/kevin-garnett-chris-webber-dirk-nowitzki-tim-duncan-kobe-bryant-may-2002-inside-stuff-magazine_11193c6f8e4406c48e96fedb549a92a7.jpg
That's a cool cover. I'm guessing Shaq got one all to himself.

[EvanW]

I do, but the second greatest PF ever? Dude has really know personal accolades. He has like 6 All-Star games, 1 All-NBA Team (just one) and a bunch of All-D Teams. Is there any other player considered the 2nd best at their position with 1 All-NBA Team?

In his prime, he was gettin beaten out by guys like Nique Wilkins, Bernard King, Alex English, Tom Chambers and young Barkley and Malone.Look at all the rings in that group. Oh wait.

One on one defense should not be your only consideration (it certainly doesn't help Barkley). It's the same reason KG is great. His contributions to overall team defense were invaluable.

[MavsPoke]

I'm fine with any list put up here as long as Dirk is above KG.

Both played in the same era and if you don't see that Dirk has been clearly above KG season after season then you are stupid and eff your list and you.

[Patrick Chewing]

What more must Dirk do? :(

[L.Kizzle]

Look at all the rings in that group. Oh wait.

One on one defense should not be your only consideration (it certainly doesn't help Barkley). It's the same reason KG is great. His contributions to overall team defense were invaluable.
Rings aside, if he was so great (which I'm not saying he isn't just not top 2 great) than where are his All-NBA Team selections at? Hell, Robert Parish has two All-NBA selections.

KG has like 10+ All-NBA Teams.

[-playmaker-]

I would take Dirk over malone...and charles

and I am in my 30s, I am fully aware of what both of those guys did...how they played


Dirk is just a one of a kind...there has never been anything like him


I wouldn't rank him over Tim...no way...that might be about it for me though

[OmniStrife]

Take off Kobe, and you have the four best.

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/111/kevin-garnett-chris-webber-dirk-nowitzki-tim-duncan-kobe-bryant-may-2002-inside-stuff-magazine_11193c6f8e4406c48e96fedb549a92a7.jpg
Holy crap, I saw these in pictures, but never did I see these piece of sh1t shoes on Kobe.... :lol

[DMAVS41]

I would take Dirk over malone...and charles

and I am in my 30s, I am fully aware of what both of those guys did...how they played


Dirk is just a one of a kind...there has never been anything like him


I wouldn't rank him over Tim...no way...that might be about it for me though

After this year, its has officially become debatable between KG/Malone/Barkley vs Dirk. I still will have all of those guys over Dirk just because I think they had better peaks.....but Dirk has officially entered that conversation.

If Dirk continues to play great for a few more years, he will probably surpass them all though.

[EvanW]

Rings aside, if he was so great (which I'm not saying he isn't just not top 2 great) than where are his All-NBA Team selections at? Hell, Robert Parish has two All-NBA selections.

KG has like 10+ All-NBA Teams.I'm not disputing that. But the fact that McHale has been described by many of his NBA peers that played against him that, at his prime, he was simply unguardable. I personally put stock into that. It's significant, without question.

Also, he was putting up MVP numbers in '87 before he broke his foot.

[-playmaker-]

After this year, its has officially become debatable between KG/Malone/Barkley vs Dirk. I still will have all of those guys over Dirk just because I think they had better peaks.....but Dirk has officially entered that conversation.

If Dirk continues to play great for a few more years, he will probably surpass them all though.
I think Dirk has always been better than KG...I don't care what KG's numbers say...Dirk is a better team leader...he wins...yeah KG had scrubs in Minny, but I would bet anything that had Dirk been on the T-Wolves those years that they would have won more than they did with KG...

[Round Mound]

Prime Barkley > Any other PF

Duncan
Barkley
Malone

[L.Kizzle]

I'm not disputing that. But the fact that McHale has been described by many of his NBA peers that played against him that, at his prime, he was simply unguardable. I personally put stock into that. It's significant, without question.

Also, he was putting up MVP numbers in '87 before he broke his foot.
They've said the same about Bernard King.Wilt said Sam Jones was the greatest player ever in 1962. Hell, Bird said Dennis Johnson is the greatest player he's ever played with. I don't see him in anyone's top 2 list, let alone top 10.

Barkley has said many times that McHale is the hardest person he's ever had to guard.

Peers boost peers up, it's a respect thing.

[DMAVS41]

I think Dirk has always been better than KG...I don't care what KG's numbers say...Dirk is a better team leader...he wins...yeah KG had scrubs in Minny, but I would bet anything that had Dirk been on the T-Wolves those years that they would have won more than they did with KG...

I hear you.

I just think KG is a little better overall and had a slightly bigger impact because of his defense.

But its debatable. Like I said, Dirk has officially moved into that Malone/KG/Barkley tier as a player.

[MavsPoke]

I think Dirk has always been better than KG...I don't care what KG's numbers say...Dirk is a better team leader...he wins...yeah KG had scrubs in Minny, but I would bet anything that had Dirk been on the T-Wolves those years that they would have won more than they did with KG...

I think it's safe to say with Dirk in Minny you would have seen 11 50 win seasons and his team advancing past the first round. More than KG can say.

But KG yells into the camera a lot and makes comments about AK47s and screams and flexes and says that basketball is like war. So that must put him over the top as tougher than Dirk. /raaaawwwwrrrrrr /flex /poseforcamera /lookhard

[TheAnchorman]

It goes:

Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Dirk (iffy, can switch w/McHale or Petitt)

Duncan and Garnett are top 2 because in their peak they were great on both ends of the court. Duncan and Garnett are easily peak defenders, and anchors to their team (Garnett, DPOY and anchor to one of the greatest teams in 2008, how amazing is that?); both delivered on the offensive end tho Duncan was a flat-out better scorer than KG.

I would be sorely tempted to put Dirk above Malone/Barkley if he wins the championship, but I think Malone will suffice since Barkley's peak from 88-93/94 was just outstanding.

[MavsPoke]

It goes:

Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Dirk (iffy, can switch w/McHale or Petitt)

Duncan and Garnett are top 2 because in their peak they were great on both ends of the court. Duncan and Garnett are easily peak defenders, and anchors to their team (Garnett, DPOY and anchor to one of the greatest teams in 2008, how amazing is that?); both delivered on the offensive end tho Duncan was a flat-out better scorer than KG.

I would be sorely tempted to put Dirk above Malone/Barkley if he wins the championship, but I think Malone will suffice since Barkley's peak from 88-93/94 was just outstanding.


No reason to rank KG that high unless you fall for him screaming at the camera in a Celtics uniform and thumping his chest. If you fell for that act then I just feel sorry for you.

[Shih508]

Duncan
Dirk
KG

in this order, the best 3 PFs in this era! Dirk's defensive is underrated and KG's offensive is way overrated! He's stats padding at SF position in early of his career if you guys can't remember that~

[chazzy]

No reason to rank KG that high unless you fall for him screaming at the camera in a Celtics uniform and thumping his chest. If you fell for that act then I just feel sorry for you.
If you can't acknowledge his game beyond that then I feel bad for you :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

If you can't acknowledge his game beyond that then I feel bad for you :oldlol:

I think he's just pointing to KG being a little over-rated for reasons that seem to not exist on the court.

Which is true. The idea that KG is in a different class of player than Dirk is just silly.

I have KG over Dirk, but that gap is starting to get really close as the years go by.

[LebronGOAT]

Here we go with the hype. Dirk is no doubt the best PF in the league and one of the best players ever (top 20 probably), but he is not a top 3 PF of all time.

No way I take Dirk over Duncan, KG, Malone, and Barkley. Though Dirk has a strong argument for 5th best PF ever. I think Dirk edges out Rodman and McHale for the 5th spot.

[LebronGOAT]

I think he's just pointing to KG being a little over-rated for reasons that seem to not exist on the court.

Which is true. The idea that KG is in a different class of player than Dirk is just silly.

I have KG over Dirk, but that gap is starting to get really close as the years go by.

Prime KG was in a different class than Dirk. He was much better than Dirk ever was. Dirk has been blessed to have a always deep talented supporting cast including at one time having prime Nash. KG had trash for the first 12 years of his career on Minny and still even got them to the WCF once (or maybe twice I don't remember). The thought of prime KG and prime Nash on the same team is scary.

KG was a far superior defender, passer, rebounder than Dirk. Dirk has a slight edge on offense though.

[Pinkhearts]

1) Hakeem Olajuwon



2) Eh do the rest matter?

[DMAVS41]

Prime KG was in a different class than Dirk. He was much better than Dirk ever was. Dirk has been blessed to have a always deep talented supporting cast including at one time having prime Nash. KG had trash for the first 12 years of his career on Minny and still even got them to the WCF once (or maybe twice I don't remember). The thought of prime KG and prime Nash on the same team is scary.

KG was a far superior defender, passer, rebounder than Dirk. Dirk has a slight edge on offense though.

Not really actually.

And Nash didn't emerge as an elite player until 2002. In 2002, the Mavs swept KG in the playoffs with Dirk being the best player in the series. The Mavs then lost to the 02 Kings....the best team in the league. No way KG in place of Dirk gets by the 02 Kings.

Then we have 03. The Mavs made the WCF and Dirk got hurt in game 3 never played again. To get there, the Mavs won 2 game 7's. Dirk had over 30 and 10 in both. Perhaps a healthy KG gets by the Spurs in the WCF.....but maybe a healthy Dirk does as well.

The we have 04. Finley declined and Nash battled a bad back all year and wore down again late in the year. Nash had so many nagging injuries that the Mavs decided to let him go.

And thats it. That was the entire Nash and Dirk era. 3 years together at elite levels. 1 year beaten by a flat out better team and the next somewhat derailed by injuries.

So sorry, don't see KG doing much differently in that situation.

[BarberSchool]

You're all insane.

Malone and Barkley would slaughter Nowitzki and KG.
Too strong.

[DMAVS41]

You're all insane.

Malone and Barkley would slaughter Nowitzki and KG.
Too strong.

Is this a one on one game?

They are all great. All I ask is that people stop acting like KG/Barkley/Malone are on a different level than Dirk. That is over now. Its done. This year has officially brought Dirk into the conversation.

I still have those guys over Dirk, but that gap is getting smaller and smaller after each game Dirk continues to play at such a high level.

[raiderfan19]

The "Peak kg was light years above Dirk" argument is flat out revisionist history bullshit. 2004 KG was light years above 2004 Dirk because that was KGs best year and Dirk's worst. Other than that? They were close with KG probably having a slight edge from about 1999-2004. 2005 was close but different. Dirk has been clearly better since 2006 though. I just dont see how when they played at the same time and dirks been better for as many seasons already(and was MUCH closer in several of them than KG is now) and has so many more left that you rank KG higher.

[DMAVS41]

The "Peak kg was light years above Dirk" argument is flat out revisionist history bullshit. 2004 KG was light years above 2004 Dirk because that was KGs best year and Dirk's worst. Other than that? They were close with KG probably having a slight edge from about 1999-2004. 2005 was close but different. Dirk has been clearly better since 2006 though. I just dont see how when they played at the same time and dirks been better for as many seasons already(and was MUCH closer in several of them than KG is now) and has so many more left that you rank KG higher.

Exactly this.

Not to mention that Dirk outplayed KG in a playoff series in 02.

Total revisionist history. KG definitely had a better "peak", but saying its not close or light years above is silly.

Just look at the career playoff numbers:

26/11/3 on 59% TS for Dirk

20/11/4 on 52% TS for KG

Yes, KG is a much better defender. But Dirk is a much better scorer and clutch player.

The idea that KG is clearly superior to Dirk is laughable. That gap has been small for sometime now and continues to get smaller and smaller.

[Scoooter]

Exactly this.

Not to mention that Dirk outplayed KG in a playoff series in 02.

Total revisionist history. KG definitely had a better "peak", but saying its not close or light years above is silly.

Just look at the career playoff numbers:

26/11/3 on 59% TS for Dirk

20/11/4 on 52% TS for KG

Yes, KG is a much better defender. But Dirk is a much better scorer and clutch player.

The idea that KG is clearly superior to Dirk is laughable. That gap has been small for sometime now and continues to get smaller and smaller.
That's pretty incredible.

[chazzy]

04 KG was better than any version of Dirk by a noticeable amount IMO. Dirks longevity and continued playoff runs will help him in the long run in terms of all time ranking, but nothing changes the advantage KG had over Dirk in their effective primes.

[DMAVS41]

That's pretty incredible.

People don't understand the kind of company Dirk is in with his playoff career.

He is tied with Jerry West for the most 30 point games in elimination games in NBA history.

He is one of 4 players all time to average over 25 points and 10 boards. The other three are Baylor/Hakeem/Pettit.

Dirk's teams have never lost a game 7. 5-0 in do or die games. Dirk has had 3 game 7's with over 30 and 10.

Dirk has now made the conference finals three different times with three completely different teams.

Dirk is 7th all time in playoff PER.

Dirk is 4th all time in win shares per 48 minutes in the playoffs.

Dirk is 10th all time in ppg in the playoffs.

And a bunch of other shit as well.

He's a legend. One of the all time greats and definitely in the same class as KG as a player.

[DMAVS41]

04 KG was better than any version of Dirk by a noticeable amount IMO. Dirks longevity and continued playoff runs will help him in the long run in terms of all time ranking, but nothing changes the advantage KG had over Dirk in their effective primes.

KG's peak of 03/04/05 is simply staggering how good it was.

Basically averaging 23 points 14 boards 6 assists while playing all time great defense. Only Shaq and Duncan and Lebron can touch that in this era and not many more players all time can.

Thats the main reason I rank KG over Dirk still.

[TheAnchorman]

No reason to rank KG that high unless you fall for him screaming at the camera in a Celtics uniform and thumping his chest. If you fell for that act then I just feel sorry for you.
That's just an aside to someone who's been a premier 1st-team defender for this past entire decade as well as one of 4 players to win MVP AND DPOY (Jordan, Robinson and Hakeem being the others). The guy can def. be dirty and be a thug (one wonders how many illegal screens were set) but one can't deny his elite skill on both ends of the court during his prime.

[bdreason]

Duncan
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk

[DMAVS41]

Duncan
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk

Pettit....

There is Duncan as the clear cut best in my opinion.

Then you have the group of:

pettit
kg
malone
barkley
dirk

i don't really care how people rank those guys....although dirk should be towards the end and pettit should be towards the top

[chazzy]

Pettit....

There is Duncan as the clear cut best in my opinion.

Then you have the group of:

pettit
kg
malone
barkley
dirk

i don't really care how people rank those guys....although dirk should be towards the end and pettit should be towards the top
Roughly where do you rank Malone now? I remember you had him above Kobe at like 13 or 12 a year ago.. but it seems you've caught onto the way everyone does their rankings here now.

[che guevara]

Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk
Mchale? Pettit? Hayes?

Duncan isn't on this list because he's a Center.

[DMAVS41]

Roughly where do you rank Malone now? I remember you had him above Kobe at like 13 or 12 a year ago.. but it seems you've caught onto the way everyone does their rankings here now.

it depends on how we do the rankings.

if its a combination of everything......I rank Kobe at 10 and Malone around 15 or so.

If its solely who I think are the best players of all time. I rank Malone around 12 and Kobe around 13 to 15.

I'd have to think more about it though. But something like that.

[KnowledgeWithin]

Well as far as Dirk's legendary playoff run goes it's been amazing to see through the years and I'm glad to have witnessed it.

Ranking the PF position is very iffy since all players of recent greatness hit it at different strides, but that can be said about any position.

Clear cut would be

Duncan/Malone/Barkley/KG in any order and whatever your team needs the greatest winner of them is Duncan the most skill is probably KG or Barkley and the one that you know will suit up and give you points for sure is Malone.

Now just below not much or so is Dirk/Pettit/Mchale/Elvin Hayes

You can't go wrong with either of these guys and the funny thing between this tier is that most of these guys are actual winners. Pettits career basically was his prime but comp and era can hinder him but if on an even playing field hes in the first tier no doubt. Same with Dirk for playoff dominance.

[chazzy]

it depends on how we do the rankings.

if its a combination of everything......I rank Kobe at 10 and Malone around 15 or so.

If its solely who I think are the best players of all time. I rank Malone around 12 and Kobe around 13 to 15.

I'd have to think more about it though. But something like that.
I see.. but you think if Dirk plays great for a couple more years he'll surpass Malone?

[DMAVS41]

I see.. but you think if Dirk plays great for a couple more years he'll surpass Malone?

In which version?

Who I think the better player is? No, Dirk would have to play 4 or 5 more quality years for that to happen.

For the version that people use here that weighs heavily accolades and titles...etc.? It would take Dirk winning a title and finals MVP and playing 2 or 3 more elite years to surpass malone for me.

Not that many players separate these guys right now.

Dirk is right around the 25th best player of all time for me. Malone is right around the 15th best player of all time for me.

If Dirk adds a title and finals mvp.....he's going to move up in a big way.

[madmax]

I love Dirk about as much as anyone, but there's no way he's greater than Timmy, who was doing it on both sides of the floor and winning titles as well. I'd probably put him alongside Malone, who was a great scorer too but wasn't really known for his defensive efforts.

[DMAVS41]

I see.. but you think if Dirk plays great for a couple more years he'll surpass Malone?

I know we are talking at power forwards, but really what does a guy like Dr. J have on Dirk as a player?

I watched all of Dr. J's NBA career and at no point while watching Dirk do I think Dr. J had a bigger impact on the game as a player. I personally think Dirk is a better player, but Dirk needs to add to his resume a little to reach the Dr. J level.

Dirk has as good or better numbers. The only thing Dirk is missing is a title and a few more years of longevity.

I think a lot of people get caught up in thinking some of the older players are untouchable.

[chazzy]

Yeah, he could have a huge legacy boost if he continues to play like this and lead this particular team to a title. Not to jump the gun, but if they manage to win it all this year.. this team's window is slightly bigger than it appears as they'll get Butler and Roddy back. I don't see Dirk declining too much within the next two years either.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, he could have a huge legacy boost if he continues to play like this and lead this particular team to a title. Not to jump the gun, but if they manage to win it all this year.. this team's window is slightly bigger than it appears as they'll get Butler and Roddy back. I don't see Dirk declining too much within the next two years either.

Butler is a question mark. We are obviously going to for sure sign Chandler. I'm not sure if we will be able to afford Butler. Which makes it even worse that we didn't trade him at the deadline.

Obviously I'm not complaining because we have had a great run, but we sure could use a little bit better option other than stevenson/peja. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

And we have to sign Barea as well. Not sure we keep him. Which truthfully will be fine because there really isn't room for both roddy and barea. Roddy just has to prove he's worth it this summer or we need to trade him.

Our team could look a little different. Butler/Stevenson/Barea could all be gone depending on what happens. Chandler is a lock to be signed though. No way Cuban lets him go. People in Dallas love him and he's been everything we've asked for and more.

And I really wouldn't mind that. Brewer and Roddy have more talent than stevenson and barea....but part of me thinks Cuban won't let barea go.

LOL...now you've got me thinking. I'm not exactly sure what is going to happen.

[alenleomessi]

Duncan
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk
i agree

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, he could have a huge legacy boost if he continues to play like this and lead this particular team to a title. Not to jump the gun, but if they manage to win it all this year.. this team's window is slightly bigger than it appears as they'll get Butler and Roddy back. I don't see Dirk declining too much within the next two years either.

If we do make the finals, it will boost dirk's legacy up a little. That alone is extremely impressive for Dirk and this team.

But its not just about one year. If Dirk wants to crack the top 15 he'll need to not only win a title and finals mvp at some point, but also play another 4 or 5 years at a high level.

That is some rare air in the top 15 tier all time. Dirk has a long way to go to get there.

I'm just glad he's finally getting credit as one of the best players ever. Thats more than enough for me.

[chazzy]

Butler is a question mark. We are obviously going to for sure sign Chandler. I'm not sure if we will be able to afford Butler. Which makes it even worse that we didn't trade him at the deadline.

Obviously I'm not complaining because we have had a great run, but we sure could use a little bit better option other than stevenson/peja. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

And we have to sign Barea as well. Not sure we keep him. Which truthfully will be fine because there really isn't room for both roddy and barea. Roddy just has to prove he's worth it this summer or we need to trade him.

Our team could look a little different. Butler/Stevenson/Barea could all be gone depending on what happens. Chandler is a lock to be signed though. No way Cuban lets him go. People in Dallas love him and he's been everything we've asked for and more.
Oh I didn't really factor in any of their contract situations.. didn't know those guys were FAs. Yeah Cuban will definitely retain Chandler, but I wonder if they'll try to shed Haywood to get a better piece. He's serviceable and I'm sure a lot of teams could use him.. but damn his contract is pretty big for a 32 y/o.


Dr J has always been difficult to rank because people don't know how much weight they should place on his ABA career (3 MVPs 2 titles). I haven't watched enough footage of him to have a strong opinion of him either way

[Harison]

And Dirk overrating continues :oldlol: No way he is better than any of Top4 PFs, was last night fantastic? Sure, but still not as good as better performances in the Playoffs by prime Timmy, KG, Malone or Barkley. Plus 3 of those play defense, with KG and Duncan way beyond Dirk's capability.

[DMAVS41]

Oh I didn't really factor in any of their contract situations.. didn't know those guys were FAs. Yeah Cuban will definitely retain Chandler, but I wonder if they'll try to shed Haywood to get a better piece. He's serviceable and I'm sure a lot of teams could use him.. but damn his contract is pretty big for a 32 y/o.


Dr J has always been difficult to rank because people don't know how much weight they should place on his ABA career (3 MVPs 2 titles). I haven't watched enough footage of him to have a strong opinion of him either way

We are stuck with Haywood. Nobody is taking on that contract. Which is fine I guess.....he's played well enough.

It will be interesting to see if we can get butler and barea a little cheaper. Will those guys have a desire to stay? or will a guy like barea want to play more minutes on a team and make more money?

its an interesting issue with barea and roddy.

stevenson will be gone i bet. and thats fine with roddy and brewer getting more burn.

[DMAVS41]

And Dirk overrating continues :oldlol: No way he is better than any of Top4 PFs, was last night fantastic? Sure, but still not as good as better performances in the Playoffs by prime Timmy, KG, Malone or Barkley. Plus 3 of those play defense, with KG and Duncan way beyond Dirk's capability.

I disagree with your "way beyond' stuff....

But I don't think anyone with a brain ranks Dirk over Duncan/KG/Barkley/Pettit/Malone yet.

But the "way beyond" talk with guys like KG needs to stop. Its simply not true. Peak? Yep. Overall? Nope.

[sundizz]

*Only counting the general current era (1975 or so and beyond). Bob Pettit was beasting at 31 ppg and 18 rpg but honestly we have no way to compare him to today's players. He was 6'9 and 205...who knows how he would of done today.

Tim Duncan
2x MVP
4X NBA Champion
3X NBA Finals MVP
Best statistical season
13X ALL NBA (9x First)
13X ALL Defense (8X First)
Peak: 23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg
*Notes: Best interior post game. Controlled the interior/paint on the defensive side the best out of all candidates. Was a willing passer, and part of a cohesive unit. Free throw shooting is his biggest weakness.

Kevin Garnett
1x MVP
1X NBA Champion
1X Defensive player of the year
9X ALL NBA (4X First)
11X ALL Defensive (9X First)
Peak: 24.2 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.5 spg, 2.2 bpg
Notes: Statistically, had the best peak year. Was an absolute monster on the offensive and defensive end. Could score in a range of ways, and controlled the paint with his intensity and rebounding. A vocal, albeit annoying, leader. Only flaw is his ability to dominate and be a back down post player. Most shots come from outside the key except offensive rebound put backs. At his peak, was a one man franchise.

Charles Barkley
1x MVP
10X NBA ALL NBA (5x First)
Peak: 25.6 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 1.0 bpg
*Notes: Was the most offensively gifted of all the players. Could literally grab the board, go the length off the floor and finish with ease. At his peak was a one man wrecking crew. Could play inside and outside. Wreaked havoc with his offensive rebounding. Flaws were just consistency and leading his team to victory. Not 'stable' as a leader. Defensively was average, except when focused.

Karl Malone
2X NBA MVP
13X All NBA (11X First)
4X All Defensive (3X First)
Peak: 27.4 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.4 spg, .6 bpg
Notes: Offensively could score in a variety of ways and had very active hands as a defender. Set brutal screens and was the most efficient pick and roll player of the generation. Flaws; couldn't deliver on Sundays. Had the whole package, but always seemed to just not have that extra gear to go to in the clutch.

Dirk Nowitzki
1X NBA MVP
11X All NBA (4X First)
Fiba World Champion MVO, 7x Euro player of the year
Peak: 26.6 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg, .7 spg, 1.0 bpg
Notes: One of the best midrange, deep range, free throw shooters of all time. Could score from either block, anywhere on the court. Has significantly improved spinning away and driving to the rim, pump fakes etc. Has been consistently a great playoff performer but has been the victim of some of the most embarrassing losses in playoff history. Current playoff run is the stuff of legends, and will have cemented a top 5 generational pf status if he can get to the finals again. Flaws, average defender and average rebounder for his size.

[PHILA]

He was 6'9 and 205...who knows how he would of done today.

Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA - Terry Pluto


http://i.imgur.com/u7uE3.png

[sundizz]

Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA - Terry Pluto


http://i.imgur.com/u7uE3.png

Interesting...i just went by what Wikipedia had him listed at. Good to know =)

[twintowers]

The Order should actually be.

1. Dirk
2.KG/Duncan

k thnx.

Give me a break
1.Duncan



2.Kg
3.Dirk

[imlmf]

at least you got 1 of 3 right,

Duncan
Barkley
Malone in no particular order

[NBASTATMAN]

And Dirk overrating continues :oldlol: No way he is better than any of Top4 PFs, was last night fantastic? Sure, but still not as good as better performances in the Playoffs by prime Timmy, KG, Malone or Barkley. Plus 3 of those play defense, with KG and Duncan way beyond Dirk's capability.

Duncan
barkley
malone
pettit
kg and dirk

Yes Dirk is getting overrated but isn't it great to see him get his due.. He isn't on par with duncan, barkley and malone in my opinion.. But he can reach kg and pettit... Only problem with Dirk is that he has gone down too many times in the first round.. Those LOSSES won't be overlooked even if he wins a title this season.. But he is making a mark as one of the greatest scorers in playoff history.. So efficient and so darn clutch... WOW.. There is no debating who the most clutch player is anymore... Dirk is the most clutch player whether he wins a title or not... :applause:

[Odinn]

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. K. Malone
4. B. Pettit
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Dirk Nowitzki

[G.O.A.T]

Duncan
Pettit
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Dirk
Hayes
McHale

That's where I am at now. I've swapped McHale and Hayes a few times. Dirk made a big jump the last two years. He just consistently produces on offense, wins 50 games every year and now he may be on his way to his second Finals appearance as a sole superstar. I could see him taking the #2 spot all-time when all is said and done.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan
Pettit
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Dirk
Hayes
McHale

That's where I am at now. I've swapped McHale and Hayes a few times. Dirk made a big jump the last two years. He just consistently produces on offense, wins 50 games every year and now he may be on his way to his second Finals appearance as a sole superstar. I could see him taking the #2 spot all-time when all is said and done.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I have McHale over Hayes. I'd love to hear your take on that when you have time.

[necya]

You're all insane.

Malone and Barkley would slaughter Nowitzki and KG.
Too strong.

without a doubt.
people just don't remember how athletic those guys were in 88-90.
they also forget that they ran the court like small forwards and played fastbreaks situations.

[G.O.A.T]

Only problem with Dirk is that he has gone down too many times in the first round.. Those LOSSES won't be overlooked even if he wins a title this season..

I think people will forget most of it.

The Jazz and Malone were swept by a 43 win Golden State team in the first round in '89 and lost the do-or-die game five at home vs. Phoenix in the first round the next year. In 1995 they won 60 games and lost in the first round.

People forget over time.

[Brunch@Five]

1) McHale might just be the most overrated player of all time. He at no point showed that he could be a team leader, really put a team on his back. Was a 6th man for half of his career. Had only one statistically overwhelming season. Was a black hole on offense and didn't create for others. There is absolutely no reason for him to be ranked over players like Dirk or KG. I'm not saying that his career could not have played out differently on another team, but his resum

[Scoooter]

I want Kblaze to get in here and lay some truth down on Karl Malone.

[G.O.A.T]

I can't give the nod to KG because Dirk always outplayed him head-to-head and has had far more team success as the #1 option.

A lot of people seem to think so, but that was not the case.

Head-to-head KG has superior numbers.

In 12 meetings from 2003-04 to 2006-07 Garnett posted better numbers in 11 of 12 meetings.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=nowitdi01

[Brunch@Five]

A lot of people seem to think so, but that was not the case.

Head-to-head KG has superior numbers.

In 12 meetings from 2003-04 to 2006-07 Garnett posted better numbers in 11 of 12 meetings.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=nowitdi01

was referring mostly to the playoff series when Dirk dropped 33/16 per game on the best defensive PF ever and swept him out of the playoffs. While KG played great too that series, to me it cemented him not being better than Dirk in any way, shape or form.

[chazzy]

How much do you guys factor in head to head play when evaluating two players? If one player outplays another in their matchups, but the other player is better against everyone else.. what do you take away from that?

[G.O.A.T]

was referring mostly to the playoff series when Dirk dropped 33/16 per game on the best defensive PF ever and swept him out of the playoffs. While KG played great too that series, to me it cemented him not being better than Dirk in any way, shape or form.


Than you should have said that and not "Always" which something totally different.

You should have said "Dirk was better than KG the only time I remember them going to head to head."

[DMAVS41]

How much do you guys factor in head to head play when evaluating two players? If one player outplays another in their matchups, but the other player is better against everyone else.. what do you take away from that?

Head to head should not be a huge factor unless its two players that play the same position playing each other many many times throughout their careers.

In the case of Dirk and KG is almost useless. The only thing the 02 series should show is that KG was not on "another level" than Dirk. That is all. Nothing more should be read into a 3 game series.

[Harison]

was referring mostly to the playoff series when Dirk dropped 33/16 per game on the best defensive PF ever and swept him out of the playoffs. While KG played great too that series, to me it cemented him not being better than Dirk in any way, shape or form.
Cherry picking much? Thats 3 games sample, with KG having 24.0/18.7/5.0 and dropping 31/18/4/2/3 game and still losing to better team.

When we check bigger sample of prime vs prime, KG outplayed Dirk very often, and thats before we get to part where KG is elite defensive anchor, and Dirk anchors... what? Its easier to just focus on scoring than to play both ends of the floor. So how does that translate to "I can't give the nod to KG because Dirk always outplayed him head-to-head" :rolleyes:

You can as well pick samples of games where Dirk burned Duncan, or Amare did the same, Duncan is no longer better than them either? Think about it for a second.

[Brunch@Five]

Than you should have said that and not "Always" which something totally different.

You should have said "Dirk was better than KG the only time I remember them going to head to head."

What happens in the playoffs certainly is the most relevant head-to-head sample we can get. Seriously, who cares about head-to-head in the regular season? Does anyone know whether Hakeem had better stats than DRob in the regular season? Only thing everyone knows is that Hakeem punked him when they met in the playoffs. Same as Dirk with KG. KG flamed out at home with a 22 points 9/19 FG 6 TO performance that series while Dirk had 39 on 11/17 FG with only 3 TO (and as many steals). That was pre-prime Dirk vs prime KG.

Before KG went to Boston, he had 6 games out of 47 where he shot better than 50% from the field. He had 8 shooting worse than 40%...

He's a great player, no doubt, but he can't carry his team on his back offensively like Dirk, and this is the biggest asset your star player can have.

[Skep]

I want Kblaze to get in here and lay some truth down on Karl Malone.

Kblaze is a known Malone hater. All of his arguments involve off the court stuff about Karl. Nothing to do with how he played. Pretty sure Kblaze has daddy issues.

[Harison]

What happens in the playoffs certainly is the most relevant head-to-head sample we can get. Seriously, who cares about head-to-head in the regular season? Does anyone know whether Hakeem had better stats than DRob in the regular season? Only thing everyone knows is that Hakeem punked him when they met in the playoffs. Same as Dirk with KG. KG flamed out at home with a 22 points 9/19 FG 6 TO performance that series while Dirk had 39 on 11/17 FG with only 3 TO (and as many steals). That was pre-prime Dirk vs prime KG.

Before KG went to Boston, he had 6 games out of 47 where he shot better than 50% from the field. He had 8 shooting worse than 40%...

He's a great player, no doubt, but he can't carry his team on his back offensively like Dirk, and this is the biggest asset your star player can have.
Again, basing which player is better by few cherry picked games only, even if its Playoffs, is not very bright. Lets pick MVP Dirk 1st seed being swepped by 8th seed Warriors and conclude he is a bad player and a choker. Garnett never lost in the Playoffs when his team was favorite. Dirk? Many times. Stick has two ends, if you want to cherry pick basing on few games.

[DMAVS41]

Again, basing which player is better by few cherry picked games only, even if its Playoffs, is not very bright. Lets pick MVP Dirk 1st seed being swepped by 8th seed Warriors and conclude he is a bad player and a choker. Garnett never lost in the Playoffs when his team was favorite. Dirk? Many times. Stick has two ends, if you want to cherry pick basing on few games.

Many times?

The Mavs under achieved twice technically. 07 losing to the warriors and 10 losing to the spurs.

Every other year the Mavs went farther than expected or lost when expected.
:facepalm

[rmt]

What happens in the playoffs certainly is the most relevant head-to-head sample we can get. Seriously, who cares about head-to-head in the regular season? Does anyone know whether Hakeem had better stats than DRob in the regular season? Only thing everyone knows is that Hakeem punked him when they met in the playoffs. Same as Dirk with KG. KG flamed out at home with a 22 points 9/19 FG 6 TO performance that series while Dirk had 39 on 11/17 FG with only 3 TO (and as many steals). That was pre-prime Dirk vs prime KG.

Before KG went to Boston, he had 6 games out of 47 where he shot better than 50% from the field. He had 8 shooting worse than 40%...

He's a great player, no doubt, but he can't carry his team on his back offensively like Dirk, and this is the biggest asset your star player can have.
This (to me) is what makes these all-time discussions interesting. Is it the getting there (say to the NBA Finals) or is it the carrying the team in game 7s/crunch situation? Do you prefer the defense from KG (which Dirk has gotten from Chandler this year) or the clutchness of Dirk in crunch times?

As I've watched this year's playoffs from Randolph to Dirk to Lebron, it seems to me that it's the ability to come through in the clutch that's more important as the team's defense can be had in other (lesser) players. The team that has the most (unstoppable) player is usually the one that wins.

It makes me appreciate how very special it is to have players that deliver both and why (historically) dominant two-way big men have been the foundation of the majority of championships.

To the poster who has McHale as #2, sure his post moves are great but he never had to carry a team or be the focal point of a team the way the other PFs have.

[GOBB]

:oldlol: Now Dirk a top 5 PF of all time. He mustve played very well last night.

Oh wait.

[G.O.A.T]

What happens in the playoffs certainly is the most relevant head-to-head sample we can get. Seriously, who cares about head-to-head in the regular season?

Well again, you said always. But obviously you'd rather be wrong and not admit it than just learn something.

[rmt]

Many times?

The Mavs under achieved twice technically. 07 losing to the warriors and 10 losing to the spurs.

Every other year the Mavs went farther than expected or lost when expected.
:facepalm
DMAVS41, don't you think that they were favored to win in 06? The West (Mavs, Suns, Spurs) was so much stronger than the East. I'm pretty confident that if Spurs had gotten past DAL in 06, they would have beaten the HEAT (had Bowen to guard Wade and TD, Rasho and Nazr to guard Shaq).

[Scoooter]

Kblaze is a known Malone hater. All of his arguments involve off the court stuff about Karl. Nothing to do with how he played. Pretty sure Kblaze has daddy issues.
I know, it's delightful. :applause:

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS41, don't you think that they were favored to win in 06? The West (Mavs, Suns, Spurs) was so much stronger than the East. I'm pretty confident that if Spurs had gotten past DAL in 06, they would have beaten the HEAT (had Bowen to guard Wade and TD, Rasho and Nazr to guard Shaq).

I'm talking about over-achieving as a whole.

Meaning.....they grossly over achieved just to beat the spurs. That is my problem.

Its like making the finals and upsetting the spurs as huge underdogs is now more of a negative against the mavs than a positive because of what happened in the finals.

the truth is that the mavs had no business making the finals that year.

That is my point.

[Bigsmoke]

Dirk over Karl Malone?

nah.

[iggy>]

Sir Charles is clearly the best pf of all time, the only advantage Duncan had over chuck was defense, plus he played center for most of his career.

[Bigsmoke]

Sir Charles is clearly the best pf of all time, the only advantage Duncan had over chuck was defense, plus he played center for most of his career.

Duncan's defense was WAAAY better though

dont forget winning, clutch, sacrificing, post game, ect

[rmt]

Sir Charles is clearly the best pf of all time, the only advantage Duncan had over chuck was defense, plus he played center for most of his career.

Defense is half of the game.

[rmt]

I'm talking about over-achieving as a whole.

Meaning.....they grossly over achieved just to beat the spurs. That is my problem.

Its like making the finals and upsetting the spurs as huge underdogs is now more of a negative against the mavs than a positive because of what happened in the finals.

the truth is that the mavs had no business making the finals that year.

That is my point.

Well, if it's any consolation to you - that Mavs 06 series and Dirk, in particular, turned Pop to small ball and away from a 7 footer beside TD. He got rid of Rasho, Nazr, Ratliff + Splitter on the bench in favor of Oberto, Dice, Bonner and Blair.:banghead:

[Round Mound]

In the Paint and In The Mid Range

Barkley Season: 21.6 PPG on 12.9 Two-Point FGAs PG at 58.13% Two-Point FG%
Barkley Play-Offs: 22.5 PPG on 14.5 Two-Point FGAs PG at 55.13% Two-Point FG%

Barkley was too good offensively compared to any player

[CJ Mustard]

Four words for this thread: Prisoners of the moment.

If Dirk does not perform to the standard he has set in the OKC series and Dallas ends up losing, everybody will forget they ever considered ranking Dirk ahead of Malone/Barkley/KG and things will go back to normal.

:roll: :roll:

[Round Mound]

Four words for this thread: Prisoners of the moment.

If Dirk does not perform to the standard he has set in the OKC series and Dallas ends up losing, everybody will forget they ever considered ranking Dirk ahead of Malone/Barkley/KG and things will go back to normal.

:roll: :roll:


Rings don`t matter at all when u talk about Dominant Players

Barkley and Malone where dominant. Dirk is highly skilled for a 7footer but he aint dominant

[CJ Mustard]

Rings don`t matter at all when u talk about Dominant Players

Barkley and Malone where dominant. Dirk is highly skilled for a 7footer but he aint dominant
Exactly.

The whole notion that if a certain player wins a title, he automatically jumps players who were very clearly better players at their peak is completely ridiculous.

[Brunch@Five]

Rings don`t matter at all when u talk about Dominant Players

Barkley and Malone where dominant. Dirk is highly skilled for a 7footer but he aint dominant

you cannot be serious if you think that Dirk is not dominant. He's one of the most efficient offensive players of all time (considering shooting percentages and turnovers) and one of the best and most consistent 4th quarter scorers of his generation.
What else constitutes dominance?

[creepingdeath]

Not saying Dirk has be ranked above Barkley, Malone or KG (Timmy is a no brainer, obviously), but to call him not dominant? :roll:

[Round Mound]

you cannot be serious if you think that Dirk is not dominant. He's one of the most efficient offensive players of all time (considering shooting percentages and turnovers) and one of the best and most consistent 4th quarter scorers of his generation.
What else constitutes dominance?

He cant rebound like Barkley or Malone
He can`t score in the Paint like Barkley or Malone
He can`t pass like Barkley or Create like Barkley
He is an on Ok shot blocker not in the level of Barkley
He can`t steal like Barkley or Malone`s quick hands
He can`t finish when driving like Barkley or Malone etc

He is a dominant scorer but thats not dominant. Dominant has to be alteast in 3-4 areas

[LJJ]

Exactly.

The whole notion that if a certain player wins a title, he automatically jumps players who were very clearly better players at their peak is completely ridiculous.

Who other than Duncan is clearly better than Nowitzki? Nowitzki is an MVP and 11x NBA teamer.


Look at his teammates right now. If Nowitzki wins a title with this lackluster cast, sweeping a perennial and still prime Lakers championship team, the Durant/Westbrook Thunder (who could very well turn into a championship team themselves) and the "Heatles" along the way that is an incredibly impressive feat. I'm not saying it will happen, frankly I don't think so, but if he does? Impressive. More impressive than anything Barkley/Malone/KG have ever achieved. So you guys are saying: "Ignore this, it doesn't matter, take a look at these stats."?


Preposterous. :roll:

[D.J.]

1)Duncan
2)Barkley
3)Malone

4)Garnett
5)McHale


Dirk right now is 6th, IMO. He surpasses McHale at the very least with a ring.

[TylerOO]

McHale is so fcking overrated.

[D.J.]

McHale is so fcking overrated.


Tell that to Larry Bird. Even Bird acknowledged McHale was a key player. McHale was one of the best post defenders of all-time. A ton of post moves under the hoop, great defender, and good outside shooter.

[Fatal9]

I'm ready to accept Dirk as the best offensive PF of all-time. He scores in a way that is more effective than anyone else because it always comes in the context of the team (and in situations where the game slows down, he is still unstoppable on one on one isos). The fact that he is a threat from everywhere on the floor makes it a lot easier for his teammates to do their thing, and this is something he does by not even touching the ball, just through the threat of his shooting ability (better than everyone else ever at this position, so yes this is a unique thing to get from your PF). His decision making and passing have been amazing imo, makes the right play for everything the defense throws at him and knows when to take a step back for his teammates. I honestly don't care what the numbers say, I know McHale had the most efficient 25+ ppg season ever, Barkley had crazy offensive stats in the 80s (which overstated his true offensive ability imo because he did a lot of work on the offensive glass/fast break, and as the 90s went on his shot selection got worse and worse), the way Dirk gets his is just better for the team.

but as for as top 3 PFs, for me at least it's like:

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Malone/Barkley and possibly Dirk if he ends this year the right way

[joshwake]

typical ISH, completely ignoring everything but Offense. Prime Duncan or Malone would man-handle Dirk.

[joshwake]

Look at his teammates right now. If Nowitzki wins a title with this lackluster cast, sweeping a perennial and still prime Lakers championship team, the Durant/Westbrook Thunder (who could very well turn into a championship team themselves) and the "Heatles" along the way that is an incredibly impressive feat. I'm not saying it will happen, frankly I don't think so, but if he does? Impressive. More impressive than anything Barkley/Malone/KG have ever achieved. So you guys are saying: "Ignore this, it doesn't matter, take a look at these stats."?


Preposterous. :roll:
You have got to be ****ing kidding me. Dallas has very good players in nearly all positions and a solid solid bench.

[magnax1]

There just isn't a logical case for Dirk above Barkley or Malone, and it'd be awfully hard to put him over Hayes. Doesn't matter if he wins or not, he's just plain not as good as those guys.

[LJJ]

You have got to be ****ing kidding me. Dallas has very good players in nearly all positions and a solid solid bench.

Nonsense.

Old ass 38yo Jason Kidd
Shawn Marion - At least 4 years removed from anything remotely resembling a "prime"
Jason Terry - Old, pretty solid starter, but nothing special as a 2nd option
Tyson Chandler - Solid big body. Send away for free at the start of this season
Stojakovic - Broken. His first time being relevant since 06.
Barea - Solid bench guard, nowhere near starter quality
Haywood/Stevenson - decent defensive bench pawns.

As a supporting cast? It fits Nowitzki pretty good, but compared to 'championship supporting casts' in recent history they are worthless scrubs. This ain't no Gasol/Bynum/roleplayers. This ain't no Garnett/Allen/Rondo/Perkins/solid bench. Those supporting casts are waaay better, this supporting cast is not remotely championship material.

[Fatal9]

There just isn't a logical case for Dirk above Barkley or Malone, and it'd be awfully hard to put him over Hayes. Doesn't matter if he wins or not, he's just plain not as good as those guys.
I always lol at people who fit Hayes into these top 5 PF talks. He was known as the biggest choker of his generation, had a lot of chemistry killing moments with his team and his adjusted stats aren't even that impressive when compared to all the other all-time PF legends (career 49 TS% which is god awful from a PF, not a single season where his PER was over 20).

[Round Mound]

The Best Offensive PF is by far Charles Barkley, won`t even go into how he dominated the Mid Range and Post Play at almos Shaq like Efficiency

Dirk is 2nd in that aspect as scorer but Garnett and Webber where also better creators and passers than Dirk.

Dirk is one dimensional: a pure scorer

[D.J.]

The Best Offensive PF is by far Charles Barkley, won`t even go into how he dominated the Mid Range and Post Play at almos Shaq like Efficiency

Dirk is 2nd in that aspect as scorer but Garnett and Webber where also better creators and passers than Dirk.

Dirk is one dimensional: a pure scorer


Webber was also a very average defender. He put up the numbers, but much of it was empty.

[Brunch@Five]

The Best Offensive PF is by far Charles Barkley, won`t even go into how he dominated the Mid Range and Post Play at almos Shaq like Efficiency

Dirk is 2nd in that aspect as scorer but Garnett and Webber where also better creators and passers than Dirk.

Dirk is one dimensional: a pure scorer

that's simply wrong. I doubt that there has ever been a PF you could run your entire offense through better than Dirk. You don't even need a good PG for your offense to work. His pure presence on the court opens up opportunities for his teammates, not to mention that he's probably the best pick and roll big man to ever play the game.

[Round Mound]

Webber was also a very average defender. He put up the numbers, but much of it was empty.

Webber was a Better than Dirk as a Total Player

I do say that Dirk is probably the Greatest Shooting 7footer Ever
One of the Clutchest Evers

But he did not dominate like that of Barkley, Malone, Garnett or Duncan in more areas of the game

If he wins 10 rings i am not going to put him over those dudes because as simple as it is: they where better total players

I also consider Kevin McHale Better

Hayes Better

Petit Better

He is the Top 7-10 GOAT Pfs though

[Brunch@Five]

McHale :oldlol: I'm done with this. We're talking about a career 6th man/1 time All-NBA-teamer who never was the #1 option on his team, heck, never had his team.

[Round Mound]

that's simply wrong. I doubt that there has ever been a PF you could run your entire offense through better than Dirk. You don't even need a good PG for your offense to work. His pure presence on the court opens up opportunities for his teammates, not to mention that he's probably the best pick and roll big man to ever play the game.

Barkley domianted the Mid Range Game and the Post like no other other than Shaq and is in the world of guys like Kareem, Wilt, McHale and Dantley inside

Barkley shooting 58.13% for 21.6 PPG onfor his Career is insane and only shooting 12.9 Two-Point FGAs

Play-Offs: the most doubled since Shaq he scored at 22.5 PPG on 55.13% FG shooting only 14.5 Two-Point FGAs PG

-Barkley Owned the Mid Range Game (like Bird he rarely jumped to shoot)
-Barkley Owned the Paint and Post Player
-Barkley`s game Needed Rule Change
-Barkley was Called the Zone Buster
-Barkley is the GOAT Post Spin Move Player (Presuscor of Shaq`s Black Tornados)
-Barkley Created More Ilegal Defenses than Any Player of his Era
-Barkley was Better at Attacking The Rim for Slam
-Barkley would Go Goast To Coast for Dunks or Easy Assists


Dirk is probably the 2nd Best PF as a Pure Offensive Player but with big separation compared to Barkley (those stats i say are true not just mi view)

Dirk shoots at 47.6 FG% Season
Dirk shoots at 46.6 FG% Season

Barkley never shot below 50% FG in the 2-Point Region but once in his crippled days

1-Barkley`s 2-Point FG% on 22 PPG is

58% (Season) and 55% (Play-Offs Season)

He did that 5-6 Times over 60% (and around 64% twice)

2-Only Player to Score 20 + PPG on 60% + 2-Point FG% in the last 19 Years Not Named Shaq

http://www.rootzoo.com/articles/view...cs-Primer_3549

Putting it together: Offensive Rating. By now, you're probably impatient for a number that tells us how efficient a player is overall with the possessions that he uses, and the answer comes in the form of Dean Oliver's Offensive Rating (OR). The formula is a bit complicated to reproduce here (I refer you to Oliver's excellent Basketball on Paper for its full derivation), but it suffices to say that Offensive Rating provides a rating of how many points a player scores per 100 possessions that he uses while on the floor. The league's typical rating has varied throughout history, but today stands at around 107.

The best OR belong to jump-shooting guards and, to a lesser extent, high-percentage post players. The career leaders are Steve Kerr (122.06), Reggie Miller (121.48), Magic Johnson (120.79), John Stockton (120.55), and Kiki Vandeweghe (119.49).

In general, the more possessions that a player uses, the lower we expect his OR to be, because player who use more possessions have to use more possessions in precarious situations.

If a player has a high career Usage Rate and a high OR, that indicates that he is a monster on offense. Magic Johnson falls into this category, as does Charles Barkley (119.31), Adran Dantley (118.40), the incomparable Michael Jordan (who, with the highest career Usage Rate, had a career OR of 117.97, the 13th best in history), and Dirk Nowitzki (117.80) .

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating

NBA/ABA

Rank Player ORtg

1. Steve Kerr 122.06 (CG)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Chris Paul 120.54 (PG)
6. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
7. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
8. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for True Shooting Pct

NBA/ABA

Rank Player TS%

1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. James Donaldson .6177
4. Adrian Dantley* .6166
5. Jeff Ruland .6152
6. Reggie Miller .6139
7. Charles Barkley* .6120
8. Magic Johnson* .6095
9. John Stockton* .6081

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Effective Field Goal Pct

NBA/ABA

Rank Player eFG%

1. Artis Gilmore .5820
2. Shaquille O'Neal .5818
3. Mark West .5804
4. Steve Johnson .5722
5. Darryl Dawkins .5721
6. James Donaldson .5706
7. Brent Barry .5703
8. Dwight Howard .5679
9. Bo Outlaw .5678
10. Steve Kerr .5642
11. Jeff Ruland .5641
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .5595
13. Bobby Jones .5583
14. Charles Barkley* .5578
15. Kevin McHale* .5554

Dirk is a Better Three Point Shooter and that it

[gengiskhan]

1.Charles Barkley

2.Karl Malone

3.Tim Duncan

then everybody else.

[Round Mound]

Webber vs Dirk

As Good Rebounder
Better Creator or Passer
Better Defender
Better Shot Blocker or Stealer
Better All Around Player

[D.J.]

Webber vs Dirk

As Good Rebounder
Better Creator or Passer
Better Defender
Better Shot Blocker or Stealer
Better All Around Player


:no: You ever see Webber defend the post?

[Round Mound]

1.Charles Barkley

2.Karl Malone

3.Tim Duncan

then everybody else.


Indeed :applause:

[Yung D-Will]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett

Everyone else

[NBASTATMAN]

http://i53.tinypic.com/otja4p.jpg

IMO.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki

And to think.. all three played in the same era, and at one point, the same conference (with Shaq and Kobe) ! 00's era! :bowdown:


two of those three swept the lakers :bowdown:

the other beat them in the finals :bowdown:

[Round Mound]

:no: You ever see Webber defend the post?

Webber was above average Defending the Post infact he was GOOD

Defensive Rating

2000-01 NBA 96.6 (10)
2001-02 NBA 97.8 (8)
2002-03 NBA 95.8 (6)
Career NBA 101.0 (66)

He was a Good Help Defender, Post Defender, Team Defender, Stealer and Shot Blocker (over 1.5 SPG and close or 2 BPG at times)

He was a Complete All Around Player: who also had great handles for a PF

Webber is probably the most underrated PF of All Time

I saw the NBA since 1991 and i do remember Webber from the time before he was passed his prime

[Round Mound]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett

Everyone else

Agree there but Duncan only slightly above Barkley.

Peek vs Peek I`d go with Barkley

[CJ Mustard]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett

Everyone else
Precisely

[magnax1]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett

Everyone else
KG
DUNCAN
MALONE
BARKLEY
My letters are bigger so I'm right.

[ImmortalD24]

Bump.

[Harison]

KG
DUNCAN
MALONE
BARKLEY
My letters are bigger so I'm right.
:cheers:

Still I'm glad Dirk and Kidd got the rings, about time :applause: It probably was their last chance.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan clear cut best.

After that?

Pettit
Dirk
Malone
KG
Barkley

All debatable. No clear cut guy at all in that group.

[brownmamba00]

two of those three swept the lakers :bowdown:

the other beat them in the finals :bowdown:
And Shaq/Kobe swept TD's ass and owned KG back in the 3peat:rolleyes:

What's ur point?

Anyway:
1.Tim Duncan
2.Dirk
3.KG

These are non-arguably the top 3.

[anyonebutmiami]

#1 - KARL MALONE

[rodman91]

Garnet can't be in top 3.

He couldn't carry his team and teamed up with other greats to won a championship.He wasn't even finals MVP. How do you get your ring is matters.

Dirk has been carring his team for 13 years...He made his team one of the best teams in last decade. He reached finals and lost.He reached finals again and won.He won with 39 years old Kidd,Terry and Chandler.He won against Kobe's 2 time back to back champion Lakers..he won against Wade,Lebron,Bosh...

Thats even better than Hakeem's rings.

[Round Mound]

1-Barkley
2-Duncan CF
3-Malone
4-Petit
5-Garnett
6-McHale
7-Dirk
8-Dolph
9-Hayes CF
10-Webber

[D.J.]

Dirk was borderline top 5, but he's gotta be top 5 now. He definitely surpasses McHale. My top 5 is:


1)Duncan
2)Barkley
3)Malone
4)Garnett
5)Dirk

[kizut1659]

1) Duncan
2) T-2 - Dirk (will surpass Malone with 2 more good years)
3) T-2- Malone
4) Barkley
5) Garnett
6) Petit
7) McHale