Derrick Rose shooting in the ECF vs. Miami

[ThaSwagg3r]

Game 1: 28 points, 45%, 10/22 shooting

Game 2: 21 points, 30%, 7/23 shooting

Game 3: 20 points, 42%, 8/19 shooting

Game 4: 23 points, 30%, 8/27 shooting

Game 5: 25 points, 32%, 9/28 shooting

:facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

One thing I would hope is that people watching the game notice how many of his shots arent just...him deciding to shoot. He missed a lot of shots but just off the top of my head I can remember the halfcourt 3 to beat the first quarter buzzer, the attempted coast to coast at the end of the half, Brewer getting caught clock running down throwing it to him for a long 3 that barely hit the rim, Korver doing the same, the missed 3 for the tie at the end. 5-8 shots every night lately he pretty much...has to shoot.

If the Bulls can get one more guy the team feels good throwing it to in a pinch I suspect next year his shots go down a good bit. Hes not just shooting to...be an asshole or something. And it seems many either dont see that or choose to ignore it.

On nights hes not hot and Deng and Boozer combine for 7/23 shooting...there is no alternate plan. So they keep going to him. Just a guy like Ben Gordon on the floor would help at this point. someone else with balls and skills enough to get that confidence of the team.

[Big One]

Game 1: 28 points, 45%, 10/22 shooting

Game 2: 21 points, 30%, 7/23 shooting

Game 3: 20 points, 42%, 8/19 shooting

Game 4: 23 points, 30%, 8/27 shooting

Game 5: 25 points, 32%, 9/28 shooting

:facepalm


what did you expect? he is the GOAT MVP afterall :confusedshrug:

[Noble6-AC45]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg

[50inchvertical]

One thing I would hope is that people watching the game notice how many of his shots arent just...him deciding to shoot. He missed a lot of shots but just off the top of my head I can remember the halfcourt 3 to beat the first quarter buzzer, the attempted coast to coast at the end of the half, Brewer getting caught clock running down throwing it to him for a long 3 that barely hit the rim, Korver doing the same, the missed 3 for the tie at the end. 5-8 shots every night lately he pretty much...has to shoot.

If the Bulls can get one more guy the team feels good throwing it to in a pinch I suspect next year his shots go down a good bit. Hes not just shooting to...be an asshole or something. And it seems many either dont see that or choose to ignore it.

On nights hes not hot and Deng and Boozer combine for 7/23 shooting...there is no alternate plan. So they keep going to him. Just a guy like Ben Gordon on the floor would help at this point. someone else with balls and skills enough to get that confidence of the team.
Kill that noise. There were games Booz and Deng had it going on more efficient shooting and he still took a million shots.

[ProfessorMurder]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[imdaman99]

cmon son i hate d rose, but any idiot knows the heat were NOT gonna let rose beat them this series.
its just a shame that ronnie brewer was their most clutch player though.

[50inchvertical]

Extrapolate just his 4th quarter and overtime shooting, it gets MUCH uglier

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Most overrated player in the league next to Kobe. Can't believe it took the playoffs for everyone to realize this guy winning the MVP over LeBron or Dirk is an absolute joke.

[konex]

PTIShow PTI
Ernie Johnson just did the math: Derrick Rose scored 117 points in this series on 120 FGA.
1 minute ago

:eek:

[Kblaze8855]

Kill that noise. There were games Booz and Deng had it going on more efficient shooting and he still took a million shots.

Know how many times hes taken over 25 shots in the last 55 games?

9.

The idea that he just takes a huge number of shots all the time just isnt based in reality. Reading ISH one might think he takes 28 shots a game.

[PowerGlove]

Extrapolate just his 4th quarter and overtime shooting, it gets MUCH uglier
Someone do this.

He had to shoot though, I just wished he would drive and pull up instead of jacking threes. You can keep the defense honest in other ways instead of threes.

[alexthegr8]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg

Classic lol

With that said, Rose had an awesome year no doubt about it.

[asdf1990]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg

Lmao. .

[Copperhead]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg

LMAO. That's messed up.

[NuggetsFan]

Know how many times hes taken over 25 shots in the last 55 games?

9.

The idea that he just takes a huge number of shots all the time just isnt based in reality. Reading ISH one might think he takes 28 shots a game.

He averages 23 shots in the post season. 2 less than 25. He shot to much. I get that he has to carry the O at times, but when your PG is shooting 28 times in a game it's hard for guy's to get going. Boozer has been awful, but it's obvious to anyone with eyes that Deron got him going much better. No hate on Rose tho. He's a score first PG and that's his best asset so I don't expect him to score 20 and get 10 dimes, just not his game. He was just really inefficient. Between the turnsovers and bad shots, just had a really inefficient series. Not really arguable. Not the end of the world.

One thing I will say tho. He was awful in crunch time. Bulls stayed with the Heat on a few occasions and Rose just couldn't pull threw. Missed some free throws, airballed a jumper in that one game. Missed multiple shots down the stretch etc.

His age really showed in the series.

[donald_trump]

how does he not have any help when bulls nearly won every game in this series and he only shot 35% and 9.8% in the 4th quarter.

he has one of the best built teams around him in recent times.

[PistonsFan#21]

Know how many times hes taken over 25 shots in the last 55 games?

9.

The idea that he just takes a huge number of shots all the time just isnt based in reality. Reading ISH one might think he takes 28 shots a game.

how many times has he took over 20 shots? Saying how many times he took 25 shots in the last 55 games makes it look as if you were skewing the stats in your favor

[Copperhead]

how does he not have any help when bulls nearly won every game in this series and he only shot 35% and 9.8% in the 4th quarter.

he has one of the best built teams around him in recent times.

Yeah, people really need to stop saying that ish that he doesn't have any help.

[Smoke117]

how does he not have any help when bulls nearly won every game in this series and he only shot 35% and 9.8% in the 4th quarter.

he has one of the best built teams around him in recent times.

That's what I was thinking...and that is more testament to the fact that it was the defense that made this team as good as they were and not Derrick Rose. He was completely atrocious in three out of the five games and they still had a chance to win them all. I don't think you'll find an MVP who has had a worse playoff series than Derrick Rose did vs the heat here.

[TheAnchorman]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

Why would I count 20? he averages 20 a game. People act like he shoots a crazy number of shots all the time. 21 shots isnt just...absurd. I figured an nice round number. 25.

[The Judge]

He just shoots way too much. He's gotta tone it down. He's not a good shooter AT ALL. He chucks. And to top it off, he's not a smart person. He's gotta work on a lot of stuff. His basketball IQ for one.

[Theoo's Daddy]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[jrong]

My question is at what point does he become aware of the problem and modify the way he's playing? He was 8/27 on Tuesday, so he decided to take 29 shots tonight?

[ThePointGuard11]

He should NEVER EVER shoot three-pointers, he's much too good at getting all the way to the rim. He's a stupid player, period, takes stupid shots, makes bad decisions, turns the ball over a lot. He has loads of talent and has the POTENTIAL to be great, but his shot selection is questionable to say the least.

[Heat007]

Game 1: 28 points, 45%, 10/22 shooting

Game 2: 21 points, 30%, 7/23 shooting

Game 3: 20 points, 42%, 8/19 shooting

Game 4: 23 points, 30%, 8/27 shooting

Game 5: 25 points, 32%, 9/28 shooting

:facepalm


and his 8394938476 turnovers in this series, his BAD defense, crappy rebounding, and Rose missing WIDE OPEN shooters a GAZILLION times because if his STUPID selfishness and lack of passing ability.


Derrick Rose is GARBAGE !!

[Lebron23]

DeBrick Rose

[Kblaze8855]

My question is at what point does he become aware of the problem and modify the way he's playing? He was 8/27 on Tuesday, so he decided to take 29 shots tonight?

Thats just it...he didnt...decide to take 29 shots. At least 5 of them were straight up against the shot clock/end of quarter balls where they gave it to him expecting him to go make a play. you cant gameplan for that. That happens when a team is overly reliant on a guy. When someone has to get rid of the ball...they look for Rose. End of quarter...Rose tries the halfcourt shot. 3 seconds left...hes gonna try to go coast to coast. Those arent plays within any offense. They are "You are the star" plays.

He probably actually set out to take 22-23 shots far as what he got the ball intending to do not under duress against a ticking clock. which is still a lot. But its not 27-29 like people ***** over.

Not taking the halfcourt heave end of the first, not taking the 3 with a second on the shot clock from Brewer getting trapped, or the 3 when Korver hit him with time running down, or the shot Lebron blocked that he had to take...

Thats not an option. He cant just...not shoot those shots.

But they pad his attempts nightly and people get upset like he just set out to take 26 shots because hes a bad teammate or something. And it really makes me wonder if im watching the same game they are. Because it happens every night...and people just come in and post a number of shots...as if they didnt see 2 halfcourt shots and 4 shots against the shot clock when a teammate threw it to him to get it off.

If the Bulls had one more reliable "Make something happen" scorer he would probably never have 30 shot games if only for guys having elsewhere to look when they just have to get a shot up.

[jrong]

Thats just it...he didnt...decide to take 29 shots. At least 5 of them were straight up against the shot clock/end of quarter balls where they gave it to him expecting him to go make a play. you cant gameplan for that. That happens when a team is overly reliant on a guy. When someone has to get rid of the ball...they look for Rose. End of quarter...Rose tries the halfcourt shot. 3 seconds left...hes gonna try to go coast to coast. Those arent plays within any offense. They are "You are the star" plays.

He probably actually set out to take 22-23 shots far as what he got the ball intending to do not under duress against a ticking clock. which is still a lot. But its not 27-29 like people ***** over.

Not taking the halfcourt heave end of the first, not taking the 3 with a second on the shot clock from Brewer getting trapped, or the 3 when Korver hit him with time running down, or the shot Lebron blocked that he had to take...

Thats not an option. He cant just...not shoot those shots.

But they pad his attempts nightly and people get upset like he just set out to take 26 shots because hes a bad teammate or something. And it really makes me wonder if im watching the same game they are. Because it happens every night...and people just come in and post a number of shots...as if they didnt see 2 halfcourt shots and 4 shots against the shot clock when a teammate threw it to him to get it off.

If the Bulls had one more reliable "Make something happen" scorer he would probably never have 30 shot games if only for guys having elsewhere to look when they just have to get a shot up.

But, every superstar player ends up taking shots like that, so you have to factor those into how much he chose to shoot, just like you would any other player. From my observation of them this year, the Bulls are best when Rose shoots less than 20 times, they move the ball, and beat teams with their defense. They seem to win in a lot of blowouts when they play like that.

[DMAVS41]

One thing I would hope is that people watching the game notice how many of his shots arent just...him deciding to shoot. He missed a lot of shots but just off the top of my head I can remember the halfcourt 3 to beat the first quarter buzzer, the attempted coast to coast at the end of the half, Brewer getting caught clock running down throwing it to him for a long 3 that barely hit the rim, Korver doing the same, the missed 3 for the tie at the end. 5-8 shots every night lately he pretty much...has to shoot.

If the Bulls can get one more guy the team feels good throwing it to in a pinch I suspect next year his shots go down a good bit. Hes not just shooting to...be an asshole or something. And it seems many either dont see that or choose to ignore it.

On nights hes not hot and Deng and Boozer combine for 7/23 shooting...there is no alternate plan. So they keep going to him. Just a guy like Ben Gordon on the floor would help at this point. someone else with balls and skills enough to get that confidence of the team.

Every superstar ever has had to deal with this to an extent. Not to mention that Rose causes a large number of those bad possessions because he can't make simple passes.

I hope you realize why efficiency now matters.....LOL

And its really not his overall numbers. A player simply can't play worse in crunch time and when it matters most. That was the difference in the series. Even as horrible as Rose was, the Bulls still had a chance to win the last 4 games in crunch time. Again, Rose could not have come up shorter in the big moments in the last 4 games.

A horrible series from a great player. No excuses. His supporting cast kept him in every game despite his shot jacking ball domination.
:facepalm

[mrhoopfan]

Derrick Roise is an awesome player yet it is the basics that he lacks. I said it on ISH last summer after the FIBA games where he looked average. Those foreigners packed it in on him and made him pay by taking charges when he left his feet. Westbrook, believe it or not was the better player during those games. If zone was allowed in the NBA, Rose would really struggle. Not too many superstars in today's game or the past I would make that statement about. Rose needs to work on his footwork: Pivoting, reverse dribble, balance when he is being trapped, etc

[DMAVS41]

Why would I count 20? he averages 20 a game. People act like he shoots a crazy number of shots all the time. 21 shots isnt just...absurd. I figured an nice round number. 25.

It is when you shoot sub 35% for a series. Its actually way too many shots.

[sh0wtime]

Why would I count 20? he averages 20 a game. People act like he shoots a crazy number of shots all the time. 21 shots isnt just...absurd. I figured an nice round number. 25.


He just shoots way too much. He's gotta tone it down. He's not a good shooter AT ALL. He chucks. And to top it off, he's not a smart person. He's gotta work on a lot of stuff. His basketball IQ for one.

I dont mind that at any other position, but doing that from the PG position is prejudicial, it has never worked in NBA history, in the season you can get away with it, but in the playoffs the better team will and has always exposed why that kindof offensive traits (Rose, Iverson, Marbury, Westbrook) do not belong at the PG position unless you are really desperate.

Whether the PG is a scoring PG or a pass first PG any PG's main job is to be the main ballhandler with priority of setting up your teammates, a PG is a quarterback. (You dont see a quarterback not pass and most of the time just try to go for the touchdown over and over do you?)

The reason why the PG position must be played traditionally is just because of that. If your PG (the guy who dominates the ball) takes the ball up court and doesnt have a pass first mentality, then that alienates your teammates and beats the whole purpose of the PG role, a PG is not just a position, its a role. Those traits are anyways usual suspects for the PG being selfish, not trusting his teammates or simply being not a true PG.

Thats why a 5'11" Allen Iverson was immediately moved to spend the rest of his career at SG, that way you put a traditional PG in who makes sure the correct people get the ball and makes the correct decisions, the offense doesnt go stagnant and Allen Iverson still can shotjack how much he ever wants, that way nobody gets alienated and everybody gets theirs. That kindof scoring magnitude and attitude does not belong at the PG position.

The only time its not so detrimental to not have a traditional PG in your starting lineup is by strategy, for example if you already have a guy who is not really a PG (by size) but actually does the PG job, a la "point-forward" for example, that way you put a spotup shooter at PG instead who does nothing but shoot the ball (but never to an amplified extent) which actually is good for the team.

[mrhoopfan]

I dont mind that at any other position, but doing that from the PG position is prejudicial, it has never worked in NBA history, in the season you can get away with it, but in the playoffs the better team will and has always exposed why that kindof offensive traits (Rose, Iverson, Marbury, Westbrook) do not belong at the PG position unless you are really desperate.

Whether the PG is a scoring PG or a pass first PG any PG's main job is to be the main ballhandler with priority of setting up your teammates, a PG is a quarterback. (You dont see a quarterback not pass and most of the time just try to go for the touchdown over and over do you?)

The reason why the PG position must be played traditionally is just because of that. If your PG (the guy who dominates the ball) takes the ball up court and doesnt have a pass first mentality, then that alienates your teammates and beats the whole purpose of the PG role, a PG is not just a position, its a role. Those traits are anyways usual suspects for the PG being unselfish, not trusting his teammates or simply being not a true PG.

Thats why a 5'11" Allen Iverson was immediately moved to spend the rest of his career at SG, that way you put a traditional PG in who makes sure the correct people get the ball and makes the correct decisions, the offense doesnt go stagnant and Allen Iverson still can shotjack how much he ever wants, that way nobody gets alienated and everybody gets theirs. That kindof scoring magnitude and attitude does not belong at the PG position.

The only time its not so detrimental to not have a traditional PG in your starting lineup is because you already have a guy who is not really a PG (by size) but actually does the PG job, a la "point-forward" for example, that way you put a spotup shooter at PG instead who does nothing but shoot the ball (but not never to an amplified extent) which actually is good.


^ Right on:rockon:

[NuggetsFan]

Might just be me but I don't like using the bail out excuse for extra shots for a PG. His job is to create for others. Him winding up with the ball, 3 seconds left on the shotclock having to force a shot reflects him. His job is to run the offense. Can't complain when he couldn't create anything and ended up with the last shot. That's not a knock, can't get a good look 99% of the time and happens to everybody. Not like he's a PF or a SF where he get's heaved the ball because the team has no idea what to do. He's the PG. After he looks for his shot and can't find anything his job is to move the ball and and run a set or w.e needs to be done.

Plus he's the star. When you watch teams play most of the time those guy's get fed the ball with 5 seconds on the clock or any shitty situation and are forced to create something or take a hailmary.

Just my two sense. Bulls fans shouldn't get upset or try to defend his inefficiency's. Be happy Rose is actually good enough to be put in this type of spotlight. When you take the jump he did, win the MVP your game's going to be picked apart like it has been. Happens to everyone.

[Kblaze8855]

I hope you realize why efficiency now matters.....LOL


All it is these days is something for kids online to bring up because it makes their point while allowing them not to show their work. A dozen things factor into what a guy shoots and why. All that word is to me is evidence im dealing with someone who either cant see beyond the obvious or can...and chooses to make the most simple explanation possible because they dont choose to put in the effort needed to explain what really happened.

Got people online telling me shit like "If turnovers and offensive rebounds are equal..the higher TS% wins EVERY GAME! How do you say it doesnt matter!?!?!"

And thinking it proves...something.

Ive been watching the NBA for over 25 years. I can say with confidence that 95% of the people who spew these efficiency numbers know nothing I dont know and have not seen half of what I have. Im not going to learn anything new about basketball from formulas and shit posted dozens of times by children who post "Oh my god...you are shooting 38%! Stop shooting!" when a guy runs a play given to him by the coach for the express purpose of him shooting.

Many people here are just flat out idiots basketball wise and have nothing to teach me about anything. Most of the rest are normal people who dont care to look as deeply into the why as I do. Which Idont blame them for. But the why is what really matters. Its what I pay attention to.

The shit you are talking about skips the why and that is why I disregard it.

[tpols]

The shit you are talking about skips the why and that is why I disregard it.
This.

Numbers and stats without contextual backing have zero meaning. It's always imperative to explain how the stats were obtained and consider all of the variables.

[Kblaze8855]

Might just be me but I don't like using the bail out excuse for extra shots for a PG. His job is to create for others. Him winding up with the ball, 3 seconds left on the shotclock having to force a shot reflects him. His job is to run the offense. Can't complain when he couldn't create anything and ended up with the last shot. That's not a knock, can't get a good look 99% of the time and happens to everybody. Not like he's a PF or a SF where he get's heaved the ball because the team has no idea what to do. He's the PG. After he looks for his shot and can't find anything his job is to move the ball and and run a set or w.e needs to be done.

Plus he's the star. When you watch teams play most of the time those guy's get fed the ball with 5 seconds on the clock or any shitty situation and are forced to create something or take a hailmary.

Just my two sense. Bulls fans shouldn't get upset or try to defend his inefficiency's. Be happy Rose is actually good enough to be put in this type of spotlight. When you take the jump he did, win the MVP your game's going to be picked apart like it has been. Happens to everyone.

Heres the thing...

When someone says "He took 26 shots!" and acts like hes a ballhog just looking to shoot all the time because of it...how do they not acknowledge the situations in which these shots come?

Who does he help by not shooting that halfcourt shot end of the first?

Nobody. But in the end...its not said he took 25 shots...its 26...and the nature of the shots is irrelevant. Its another case of the simple meaning more than the why...

Im more interested in why he took whatever number of shots. And when you look into it....a huge number are often shots he had no choice but to take...or shots the team WANTS him to take...

And as a result of taking shots his teammates and coaching staff ask him to take...hes called all kinds of childish names.

And it just baffles me. How someone can watch the same game as me....and then come list how many shots he took as if he went one on one for 11 seconds 30 times.

Its really as if the final number gives more information than watching the game did and I will never understand it.

[NuggetsFan]

All it is these days is something for kids online to bring up because it makes their point while allowing them not to show their work. A dozen things factor into what a guy shoots and why. All that word is to me is evidence im dealing with someone who either cant see beyond the obvious or can...and chooses to make the most simple explanation possible because they dont choose to put in the effort needed to explain what really happened.

Got people online telling me shit like "If turnovers and offensive rebounds are equal..the higher TS% wins EVERY GAME! How do you say it doesnt matter!?!?!"

And thinking it proves...something.

Ive been watching the NBA for over 25 years. I can say with confidence that 95% of the people who spew these efficiency numbers know nothing I dont know and have not seen half of what I have. Im not going to learn anything new about basketball from formulas and shit posted dozens of times by children who post "Oh my god...you are shooting 38%! Stop shooting!" when a guy runs a play given to him by the coach for the express purpose of him shooting.

Many people here are just flat out idiots basketball wise and have nothing to teach me about anything. Most of the rest are normal people who dont care to look as deeply into the why as I do. Which Idont blame them for. But the why is what really matters. Its what I pay attention to.

The shit you are talking about skips the why and that is why I disregard it.

It's cool not to use numbers. I don't understand how somebody can completely disregard them. Can't watch 82 games a year for every team, every single play. Not the end all be all, but I think there helpful anyways.

I just don't get how you can say something like he's only took more than X amount of shots in the last X amount of games. If you don't care what clip he's hitting them at, why would you care to say how many shots he takes?. Seems like your just picking out what you want to hear. Such as Rose not taking X amount of shots. Once someone brings up what clip he hit them at, it all of sudden is irrelevant. Just an observation.

Anyways can't understand how somebody could think hitting below 20% of your shots in OT|4th quarter wouldn't matter tho.

[NuggetsFan]

Heres the thing...

When someone says "He took 26 shots!" and acts like hes a ballhog just looking to shoot all the time because of it...how do they not acknowledge the situations in which these shots come?

Who does he help by not shooting that halfcourt shot end of the first?

Nobody. But in the end...its not said he took 25 shots...its 26...and the nature of the shots is irrelevant. Its another case of the simple meaning more than the why...

Im more interested in why he took whatever number of shots. And when you look into it....a huge number are often shots he had no choice but to take...or shots the team WANTS him to take...

And as a result of taking shots his teammates and coaching staff ask him to take...hes called all kinds of childish names.

And it just baffles me. How someone can watch the same game as me....and then come list how many shots he took as if he went one on one for 11 seconds 30 times.

Its really as if the final number gives more information than watching the game did and I will never understand it.

Well in my personal opinion I usually look at the number to double check what I saw. If I'm watching him play and notice him settling for taking 3's when there's still +7 seconds left on the clock. If even after it's obvious his shot isn't falling, but still decides to keep shooting a step back midrange J. I think to everyone who watches notices what he's doing out there. It's just easier to say he went 6-18, instead of breaking down every single play we all saw. We all saw him a game ago, airball that jumper on LeBron right after he couldn't get past him and missed another J. I personally felt like he was forcing the issue a tad bit too much ala Westbrook abit. His shot wasn't falling against the Heat for whatever reason. Would have liked to see him cool it down. He wasn't making the best choices with the ball, and he's a PG.

Just easier to explain that by saying how many turnovers he had compared to assists. How many shots he took, and how many he missed.When people say he went 10-28, nobody says OMG EVERY SHOT WAS BAD. It's just a rough number. You throw it out there to show his shot wasn't falling. You complain about the number, if you what you saw you didn't agree with. I called out his %'s because I didn't agree with all the shots he was taking.

I dunno. I guess if you don't take shooting %'s into account you talk about very few players. You'd need to watch every single player, of every single team to gauge how he was playing. In this day in age, we have charts that show us exactly where he shot from. Watching players + using tools IMO is always the best way to go. Just using one can't cut it. You obviously biased towards Rose. Can't deny that. Using what you saw, plus what was recorded is going to be more accurate than just using one or the other.

[jrong]

All it is these days is something for kids online to bring up because it makes their point while allowing them not to show their work. A dozen things factor into what a guy shoots and why. All that word is to me is evidence im dealing with someone who either cant see beyond the obvious or can...and chooses to make the most simple explanation possible because they dont choose to put in the effort needed to explain what really happened.

Got people online telling me shit like "If turnovers and offensive rebounds are equal..the higher TS% wins EVERY GAME! How do you say it doesnt matter!?!?!"

And thinking it proves...something.

Ive been watching the NBA for over 25 years. I can say with confidence that 95% of the people who spew these efficiency numbers know nothing I dont know and have not seen half of what I have. Im not going to learn anything new about basketball from formulas and shit posted dozens of times by children who post "Oh my god...you are shooting 38%! Stop shooting!" when a guy runs a play given to him by the coach for the express purpose of him shooting.

Many people here are just flat out idiots basketball wise and have nothing to teach me about anything. Most of the rest are normal people who dont care to look as deeply into the why as I do. Which Idont blame them for. But the why is what really matters. Its what I pay attention to.

The shit you are talking about skips the why and that is why I disregard it.

But, it's not necessary to go to an advanced stat to see his inefficiency. All you have to do is look at shots taken vs. points scored. Here's Rose in game 4 and game 5

Game 4: 27 shots; 23 pts

Game 5: 29 shots; 25 pts.

You don't need PER or TS to see how horrendous that kind of efficiency is. I mean contrast that to Wade tonight who was almost as bad as Rose for most of the series: 13 shots; 21 pts.

Even in Wade's worst game-- Game 4, he scored 14 pts on 16 shots. That's terrible, but he only took 16 shots. So Wade's shots only potentially (excepting offensive rebounds) cost his team 11 empty possessions whereas Rose cost his team 19 empty possessions potentially. And keep in mind, this is far and away Wade's worst series of his career.

I mention this not to compare Wade vs. Rose, but to contrast an efficienct player and an inefficient player, and how a normally-efficient player adjusts his game when he's not playing well as opposed to the lack of change-in-game from a player who is not being reined-in and thus for whom poor efficiency has become the status-quo.

[Kblaze8855]

This.

Numbers and stats without contextual backing have zero meaning. It's always imperative to explain how the stats were obtained and consider all of the variables.

What makes it frustrating to me is that often...I know im dealing with adults. but they act like I did when I was a kid. I remember clearly me and my uncle(big basketball guy...his best friend a guy named clyde mayes...made the NBA briefly..was a scout later and one of the people I learned a lot from). Watching some game in probably...86 or 87. I dont remember who was playing but a guy kept missing shots. It was someone on the Bulls because I was pissed off he kept shooting.

It was explained to me...that he was supposed to shoot. Even when it misses...

I was taught to look at the game not the ball. To see plays being run. Get to know what is being run and when.

At that point...it stopped being a question of why ___ was shooting. Hes supposed to.

And here I am a quarter century later I still see people watch Korver run a lap and clear out his man...Rose get the ball Bogans wait to shoot if his man doubles off him to prevent Roses drive....

Rose shoots.

I go to the game topic and people call it selfish or post emoticons making fun as if...he wasnt supposed to shoot.

You can pretty much tell if Rose is supposed to go one on one by where Noah and Korver are if the yare both in. They run very simple plays. rose can be seen clear as day look to the sideline and recieve a play..run it. And shoot.

End of the game how many shots he took is posted as if each shot attempt kills a kitten and gets a teammates mom molested.

And I just wonder...are these people stuck mentally where I was watching the NBA on CBS in 1986? Or am I just lucky I had a former NBA player and some real ball guys to explain the basics?

Nobody looking at the sets the Bulls play out of could wonder why Rose shoots so much.

Is...seeing a play develop really not something fans do these days?

Or do people think coaches dont have gameplans? They think its playground ball where he just decides on the offense?

He plays the offense hes given. Its often intended to get him to shoot. So he shoots.

Then hes called selfish for it.

And people wonder why I am infatuated with "why"?

Why is everything.....

[Kblaze8855]

Might not say anything about all that till tomorrow. Just saying so nobody thinks im ignoring them when they took the time to explain what they think.

Im going to go get something to eat. Its 2:30...came right home after work. Just noticed ive not eaten. I think i want chicken fingers....

You...cant get good chicken fingers at 2:30 in many places. But im gonna try....

[DMAVS41]

Heres the thing...

When someone says "He took 26 shots!" and acts like hes a ballhog just looking to shoot all the time because of it...how do they not acknowledge the situations in which these shots come?

Who does he help by not shooting that halfcourt shot end of the first?

Nobody. But in the end...its not said he took 25 shots...its 26...and the nature of the shots is irrelevant. Its another case of the simple meaning more than the why...

Im more interested in why he took whatever number of shots. And when you look into it....a huge number are often shots he had no choice but to take...or shots the team WANTS him to take...

And as a result of taking shots his teammates and coaching staff ask him to take...hes called all kinds of childish names.

And it just baffles me. How someone can watch the same game as me....and then come list how many shots he took as if he went one on one for 11 seconds 30 times.

Its really as if the final number gives more information than watching the game did and I will never understand it.

And I've been watching the NBA longer than you. John Wooden said the most important stat in basketball is fg%. Phil Jackson looks at fg% the first thing after every game.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy with Rose. He's not a good playmaker. He can't make simple passes. He's a sg, not a pg.

We all know the reasons why he shot like crap in this series. He got locked down late in games and he settled for way too many jumpers. His decision making and actual play was very poor.

You've been talking all year about how fg% just really doesn't matter all that much. And I could not disagree more. John Wooden could not disagree more.

[NuggetsFan]

I think the point is, Rose's 28 field goal weren't all good shots where he was suppose to shoot. As a PG, people accept the fact he has a score first mentality. Personally would like to see him run the offense better and get other guy's going. Something you'd see Deron or Chris Paul do when there shots weren't falling. Where as with Rose, when it's not dropping for him you know he's going to keep forcing the issue weather it's designed for a few plays, or when he creates some space for his jumper. Guess what I'm saying is when he's not effective scoring the ball I think he should limit looks for himself and try to get a guy like Boozer involved more.

Either way FG% atleast shows you how effective a player was. I agree you have to watch the game, and a number alone won't tell you what shot was good or bad but if you combine numbers + watching the game yourself it ='s the best outcome. Just using numbers and not seeing the game makes it hard to put things into context. Just watching the game, doesn't allow you see every thing that's happening on the court with every player + you'll always have personal bias. Just human nature.

So I strongly disagree at just tossing aside the use of a number to help show how effective Rose was, along with what we all saw. For 80% of the people the numbers and what they saw would come to the same conclusion. He wasn't effective or efficient scoring the ball this series.

[gyu]

Know how many times hes taken over 25 shots in the last 55 games?

9.

The idea that he just takes a huge number of shots all the time just isnt based in reality. Reading ISH one might think he takes 28 shots a game.
Yeah but he's shot 25 shots or more 7 times in the last 16 games, that's why it seems like he does it all the time. Plus, the playoffs is where players are supposed to step up and play their best

[King Lebron LBJ]

Considering Rose shot 40% most of the playoffs it is no surprise he did worse against this great miami D

[NuggetsFan]

And I've been watching the NBA longer than you. John Wooden said the most important stat in basketball is fg%. Phil Jackson looks at fg% the first thing after every game.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy with Rose. He's not a good playmaker. He can't make simple passes. He's a sg, not a pg.

We all know the reasons why he shot like crap in this series. He got locked down late in games and he settled for way too many jumpers. His decision making and actual play was very poor.

You've been talking all year about how fg% just really doesn't matter all that much. And I could not disagree more. John Wooden could not disagree more.

Not to mention every NBA team hires a statistic analysts. The combo of watching the game + taking into consideration every tool at your disposal will always be the best way to go.

[DMAVS41]

I think the point is, Rose's 28 field goal weren't all good shots where he was suppose to shoot. As a PG, people accept the fact he has a score first mentality. Personally would like to see him run the offense better and get other guy's going. Something you'd see Deron or Chris Paul do when there shots weren't falling. Where as with Rose, when it's not dropping for him you know he's going to keep forcing the issue weather it's designed for a few plays, or when he creates some space for his jumper. Guess what I'm saying is when he's not effective scoring the ball I think he should limit looks for himself and try to get a guy like Boozer involved more.

Either way FG% atleast shows you how effective a player was. I agree you have to watch the game, and a number alone won't tell you what shot was good or bad but if you combine numbers + watching the game yourself it ='s the best outcome. Just using numbers and not seeing the game makes it hard to put things into context. Just watching the game, doesn't allow you see every thing that's happening on the court with every player + you'll always have personal bias. Just human nature.

So I strongly disagree at just tossing aside the use of a number to help show how effective Rose was, along with what we all saw. For 80% of the people the numbers and what they saw would come to the same conclusion. He wasn't effective or efficient scoring the ball this series.

For sure.

Nobody is advocating for doing just one or the other.

The story of the series was Rose and his inability to score efficiently or create scoring opportunities for his teammates.

That....combined with his putrid crunch time play.

Which is why Rose fans like blaze want to hate on his teammates. When in reality, the only reason the series was even remotely close was because of Rose's great supporting cast.

Its a simple fact that Rose makes no impact on defense or rebounding for this Bulls team. They are better or constant with Rose out of the game.

Rose impacts the offense and Rose played like crap offensively in this series. The fact that the Bulls had a good chance to win the last 4 games in crunch time just shows what a great supporting cast he has. Because he simply could not have played much worse.

And in crunch time? He really could not have played worse.

Blaze can write about why fg% doesn't matter as much as he wants. A shoot first pg that can't score efficiently kills your team. Just a fact. We just saw it go down.

[Kobe24Clutch]

Game 1: 28 points, 45%, 10/22 shooting

Game 2: 21 points, 30%, 7/23 shooting

Game 3: 20 points, 42%, 8/19 shooting

Game 4: 23 points, 30%, 8/27 shooting

Game 5: 25 points, 32%, 9/28 shooting

:facepalm
:eek: :lol

[DMAVS41]

Not to mention every NBA team hires a statistic analysts. The combo of watching the game + taking into consideration every tool at your disposal will always be the best way to go.

Yep. They are just children though. Not adults. How dare they want to evaluate a very complex game by doing something more than watching.

What people don't understand is the kind of bias that we all have. Nobody is without bias. So watching alone is hugely flawed. Where KBlaze sees Rose doing what he needs to, I see a shotjacking pg making terrible decisions.

How can you prove who is right? You can't.

Thats why you need actual data and hard evidence to support your views and opinions.

I can't believe an adult wants to make arguments solely based on his opinions. Flawed. Just like the notion of dismissing stats.

[NuggetsFan]

Yep. They are just children though. Not adults. How dare they want to evaluate a very complex game by doing something more than watching.

What people don't understand is the kind of bias that we all have. Nobody is without bias. So watching alone is hugely flawed. Where KBlaze sees Rose doing what he needs to, I see a shotjacking pg making terrible decisions.

How can you prove who is right? You can't.

Thats why you need actual data and hard evidence to support your views and opinions.

I can't believe an adult wants to make arguments solely based on his opinions. Flawed. Just like the notion of dismissing stats.

Yup. Just like statistics don't show what defensive attention a player see's. How a player's offensive versatility and ability to score from everywhere affects his offensive system.

You could go back and forth all day about the pro's and con's of statistics and watching the game and using that to base your entire opinion on. At the end of the day just best to use everything and form your conclusion based on every tool out there, including your eyes.

[DMAVS41]

Yup. Just like statistics don't show what defensive attention a player see's. How a player's offensive versatility and ability to score from everywhere affects his offensive system.

You could go back and forth all day about the pro's and con's of statistics and watching the game and using that to base your entire opinion on. At the end of the day just best to use everything and form your conclusion based on every tool out there, including your eyes.

Bingo.

I have just never seen anything like this before with a superstar player.

The amount of excuses and blatant ignoring of the facts/evidence is troubling.

Kblaze sounds like Ric Bucher. The guy had the audacity to go on the radio after game 4 and say that "he's more convinced than ever that Rose is a better player than Lebron"

Really?

I can't believe an educated adult could form that opinion after watching these playoffs combined with this year.

Its almost sad.

[Kblaze8855]

having returned with my food im not going to write out a long response to the last...11-12 posts right now. But I will say this...

Out of context John Wooden claims? Really?

Bill Walton once said that Wooden told him that he looks for his team to have the most turnovers because usually the team with the most turnovers is imposing its will.

Im not gonna tell you John Wooden supports turnovers though. What Wooden may or may not have said as a fragment of a conversation 40 years ago has no more bearing on this than what Larry Brown said at times in defense of an offense that allowsed AI to shoot 30 times a game in the playoffs when he was shooting like 37%.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and this?


What people don't understand is the kind of bias that we all have. Nobody is without bias. So watching alone is hugely flawed. Where KBlaze sees Rose doing what he needs to, I see a shotjacking pg making terrible decisions.

How can you prove who is right? You can't.

Thats why you need actual data and hard evidence to support your views and opinions.

I can't believe an adult wants to make arguments solely based on his opinions. Flawed. Just like the notion of dismissing stats.

It so perfectly lines up with something I said in the past im just gonna repost parts of it to save time:


Internet forums...especially sports related ones...have stopped being about sports as much as about people trying to prove this or that....arguing....repeating themselves...just in general being uninteresting stand ins for basketball fans. And do you know what did it?

Numbers and a need to be proven right.


fans lost the ability to talk basketball because of the agendas driven by the need to be right all the time...and to prove it. The strive for proof is where these numbers come from. And its in these numbers we lose our all around fanhood.

All these numbers are just people looking to prove they are right....ignoring that if you can PROVE it....you are probably wrong in some respect. The NBAs leading scorer isnt always the best scorer. The best rebounder wouldnt be the besti n all situations. PER doesnt account for half of basketball. field goal percentage is impacted by way mroe than shooting ability or shot selection...and can be HURT by having more talent. Steals leaders often play shitty D. Blocks are often poor help defense failing to prevent the drive to begin with. All D teams are often reputaiton based. People win MVPs when nobody would give it to in retrospect because the media is full of easily excited flare for the moment bandwaggoners. Its ALL arguable.

Everything. If you cant argue it you are probably wrong because only numbers are inarguable.

Really...if people stopped looking to prove everything they say they would make a lot more sense to me. Trying to prove what cant be proven is half the problem to begin with.

[DMAVS41]

Well, we are trying to prove why our differing views are correct.

You think differently than I do.

So yes, I'm trying to prove you wrong. Just like you are trying to prove me wrong.

You make statements about the game. I make statements about the game.

We just disagree.

We are talking about the game. I have talked about Rose being inefficient. Just a fact. Are there reasons for it? Yep. A lot of those reasons are on Rose.

I just find it troubling that people actually want others to overlook what we just saw happen in this series.

[DMAVS41]

One thing I would hope is that people watching the game notice how many of his shots arent just...him deciding to shoot. He missed a lot of shots but just off the top of my head I can remember the halfcourt 3 to beat the first quarter buzzer, the attempted coast to coast at the end of the half, Brewer getting caught clock running down throwing it to him for a long 3 that barely hit the rim, Korver doing the same, the missed 3 for the tie at the end. 5-8 shots every night lately he pretty much...has to shoot.

If the Bulls can get one more guy the team feels good throwing it to in a pinch I suspect next year his shots go down a good bit. Hes not just shooting to...be an asshole or something. And it seems many either dont see that or choose to ignore it.

On nights hes not hot and Deng and Boozer combine for 7/23 shooting...there is no alternate plan. So they keep going to him. Just a guy like Ben Gordon on the floor would help at this point. someone else with balls and skills enough to get that confidence of the team.

Just check out your first post.

You remove Rose from the other players. That is not how basketball works.....especially when the player we are discussing is a point guard.

You act like how Rose plays has no impact on the other players on offense.

That is the huge flaw in the way you think about Rose. He's a freaking point guard man. Its his job to get his team good shots. Maybe he should do a better job of that. Just a thought.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy. What I don't understand is why a person with a high intellect like you clearly have can't understand the concept that Rose is causing Boozer and Deng to go 7/23 at times....to use your example.

[Kblaze8855]

Well, we are trying to prove why our differing views are correct.

You think differently than I do.

So yes, I'm trying to prove you wrong. Just like you are trying to prove me wrong.

You make statements about the game. I make statements about the game.

We just disagree.

We are talking about the game. I have talked about Rose being inefficient. Just a fact. Are there reasons for it? Yep. A lot of those reasons are on Rose.

I just find it troubling that people actually want others to overlook what we just saw happen in this series.

I am long long past trying to prove anything. I noticed that in places like thesen obody cares what anyone else thinks. I read something like this:



Derick Rose = TOTAL TRASH

You think that if I comment on it im trying to prove it wrong? Idiots like that either cant or wont absorb any new information.

People think what they want then close the door. Mosto f my posts are just typed out version of things I discuss with myself walking around at work.

I think basketball all day. You know the first thing that enters my mind when I hear a new song I like? What basketball player it would best suit in a video. I am a basketball person. Im the only person under 50 I know who still uses a VCR. Know why? my old basketball tapes. I woke up a few days ago and hit play on the 01 all star game. First thing I saw eyes still fuzzy was Mcdyess on the baseline with Mutombo waving him in to challenge him and deciding it wasnt smart to do so.

I have a basketball jones( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIbp5C-5WXM ) for lack of a better term.

If I were not typing these things id be having the same discussions in my head.

I dont care what you think. Not in a "**** you" kinda way. Just that changing your mind or anyone elses isny why im here after 10 years. Im here because I get to talk about basketball.

I dont care about being able to prove everything because most things I think cant be proven.

[DMAVS41]

Then you shouldn't rant about how people have differing views like you did above.

Nobody is calling Rose total trash. Or at least I'm not.

I just disagree with how you view the game and I don't think you are very consistent in how you view it.

Just recently we were discussing Dirk and you continued to talk about how "he" lost to team x or lost in round x. You equated the Mavericks team with Dirk solely.

You are not doing that with Rose. I find that inconsistent and unfair.

If you are talking about people just in general, then its just too hard to have a conversation with you here. I don't know if some of what you post is directed towards people that claim Rose = trash....or at me.

Its too hard to tell often.

[DMAVS41]

What makes it frustrating to me is that often...I know im dealing with adults. but they act like I did when I was a kid. I remember clearly me and my uncle(big basketball guy...his best friend a guy named clyde mayes...made the NBA briefly..was a scout later and one of the people I learned a lot from). Watching some game in probably...86 or 87. I dont remember who was playing but a guy kept missing shots. It was someone on the Bulls because I was pissed off he kept shooting.

It was explained to me...that he was supposed to shoot. Even when it misses...

I was taught to look at the game not the ball. To see plays being run. Get to know what is being run and when.

At that point...it stopped being a question of why ___ was shooting. Hes supposed to.

And here I am a quarter century later I still see people watch Korver run a lap and clear out his man...Rose get the ball Bogans wait to shoot if his man doubles off him to prevent Roses drive....

Rose shoots.

I go to the game topic and people call it selfish or post emoticons making fun as if...he wasnt supposed to shoot.

You can pretty much tell if Rose is supposed to go one on one by where Noah and Korver are if the yare both in. They run very simple plays. rose can be seen clear as day look to the sideline and recieve a play..run it. And shoot.

End of the game how many shots he took is posted as if each shot attempt kills a kitten and gets a teammates mom molested.

And I just wonder...are these people stuck mentally where I was watching the NBA on CBS in 1986? Or am I just lucky I had a former NBA player and some real ball guys to explain the basics?

Nobody looking at the sets the Bulls play out of could wonder why Rose shoots so much.

Is...seeing a play develop really not something fans do these days?

Or do people think coaches dont have gameplans? They think its playground ball where he just decides on the offense?

He plays the offense hes given. Its often intended to get him to shoot. So he shoots.

Then hes called selfish for it.

And people wonder why I am infatuated with "why"?

Why is everything.....

Here is my problem with that.

You are basically saying that Rose is being doubled and gets a ton of attention...right?

Then why would you want that player taking so many shots? That simply does not make sense. You can hate on the supporting cast as much as you want, but Rose taking shots when doubled is not a better option than making the right and simple pass.

Something Rose really struggles with.

You keep talking about "why"......

Have you ever thought that the reason the Bulls play this way offensively is because Rose is incapable of running a real offense? That might be the "why"......

We've seen what Boozer is capable of playing with a quality pass first, smart, and efficient point guard. I've see what Deng can do getting more touches in the flow of a real offense.......

You can't simply remove Rose from the equation. And if you really think Rose should be shooting so many threes then you just simply have a very flawed way of looking at the game and are clearly too biased to analyze Rose or the bulls.......

[Kblaze8855]

Just check out your first post.

You remove Rose from the other players. That is now how basketball works.....especially when the player we are discussing is a point guard.

You act like how Rose plays has no impact on the other players on offense.

That is the huge flaw in the way you think about Rose. He's a freaking point guard man. Its his job to get his team good shots. Maybe he should do a better job of that. Just a thought.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy. What I don't understand is why a person with a high intellect like you clearly have can't understand the concept that Rose is causing Boozer and Deng to go 7/23 at times....to use your example.


This here I think would be best explained with something else I said long ago. Mostly because it makes it clear its not about Rose at all. 4 years ago in some topic about how Jose Calderon was just so great...


And pointguards dont have to be pass first any more than power forwards have to be enforcers who rebound and play inside. Tony Parker has never been in a game to make plays. Hes there to get to the basket and score while somewhat setting the tempo and usually bringing the ball up. Parker is no more of a point than Baron Davis. In fact hes a good bit worse as a playmaker. I compare a scoring point to a running quarterback. Running doesnt mean you arent a QB and scoring doesnt mean you arent a point. QBs job to get the ball down the field not to pass for passings sake. A points job is to run the offense. If they are the best scorer its not running the offense well to feed inferior players who wont have any success playing a scorers role.

My feelings on this matter long predate Rose.

And many points dont even run their teams offense. They just help implement the gameplan. Coaching is the most disregarded part of what happens on the floor these days. If thibs said to get the ball to ___ he would do it. Rose is not a "**** you coach..." type at all. The vets the last 2 years were saying its hard to even get him to shoot. He does what the system asks of him now.

Fisher is a point...he never exactly ran the triangle. It doesnt work that way. Plenty of guys in motion offenses dont exactly...run the offense. They kinda direct traffic but they dont just decide how things go. its an offense where through much practice you learn where to be and what to do. You dont just follow the directions of a pointguard.

People oversimplify so much of the game. Slap labels on guys and expect them to live up to them instead of doing what the team asks of them.

Rose isnt supposed to make plays and set people up because hes a pointguard any more than Derrick Fisher is. Plenty of systems dont even require the point to handle the ball. Like the Knicks with Don Nelson.

Anthony Mason handles the ball but Nelson himself and Derek harper are calling plays. So who is the point there? Mason has the ball...Harper is guarding the other teams point and calling plays...but Mason is in the sets where a point would traditionally be. Is nobody the point? Or with Carlisle in Indiana. You could see him calling damn near every play. Especially when Tinsley was out or being benched. If hes running the offense what is that guy dribbling doing?

I dont see it as simple as this guy is the shortest and has the ball...so hes supposed to get guys good shots.

Some games the Bulls run damn near as many plays to put Noah in position to set someone up as they do with Rose. when the Kings had Brad Miller, Vlade, and Webber in rotation for a year or two in the high post. you cant tell me Bibby ran that team. If hes not the playmaker in charge of getting guys looks...was he still a pointguard? If a points purpose is setting people up...what is Damon Jones? He didnt run an offense past his time on the Bucks. He might bring the ball up. But he didnt run anything.

I just...dont see it as simple as this guy is the point so hes supposed to make ___ and __ score. A point is failing in his duty to me when hes not an extension of the coaches will and the gameplan his team has practiced.

I understand my way of looking at things isnt quite normal...but I never strive to be normal.

With that I go to bed. goodnight all.....

edit..wanted to clear this up:


Just recently we were discussing Dirk and you continued to talk about how "he" lost to team x or lost in round x. You equated the Mavericks team with Dirk solely.

You are not doing that with Rose. I find that inconsistent and unfair.

Whole point was...if one can understand how Dirk didnt personally lose ___ and ___ it shouldnt be hard to see how KG didnt either. When im being told that KG losing means he failed to...whatever...and I point out that dirk himself failed to...whatever...I like to think my point is clear without spelling it out. Neither claim makes sense. If that was not clear..my bad. But I didnt think it was that cloudy.

[DMAVS41]

This here I think would be best explained with something else I said long ago. Mostly because it makes it clear its not about Rose at all. 4 years ago in some topic about how Jose Calderon was just so great...



My feelings on this matter long predate Rose.

And many points dont even run their teams offense. They just help implement the gameplan. Coaching is the most disregarded part of what happens on the floor these days. If thibs said to get the ball to ___ he would do it. Rose is not a "**** you coach..." type at all. The vert the last 2 years were saying its hard to even get him to shoot. He does what the system asks of him now.

Fisher is a point...he never exactly ran the triangle. It doesnt work that way. Plenty of guys in motion offenses dont exactly...run the offense. They kinda direct traffic but they dont just decide how things go. its an offense where through much practice you learn where to be and what to do. You dont just follow the directions of a pointguard.

People oversimplify so much of the game. Slap labels on guys and expect them to live up to them instead of doing what the team asks of them.

Rose isnt supposed to make plays and set people up because hes a pointguard any more than Derrick Fisher is. Plenty of systems dont even require the point to handle the ball. Like the Knicks with Don Nelson.

Anthony Mason handles the ball but Nelson himself and Derek harper are calling plays. So who is the point there? Mason has the ball...Harper is guarding the other teams point and calling plays...but Mason is in the sets where a point would traditionally be. Is nobody the point? Or with Carlisle in Indiana. You could see him calling damn near every play. Especially when Tinsley was out or being benched. If hes running the offense what is that guy dribbling doing?

I dont see it as simple as this guy is the shortest and has the ball...so hes supposed to get guys good shots.

Some games the Bulls run damn near as many plays to put Noah in position to set someone up as they do with Rose. when the Kings had Brad Miller, Vlade, and Webber in rotation for a year or two in the high post. you can tell me Bibby ran that team. If hes not the playmaker in charge of getting guys looks...was he still a pointguard? If a points purpose is setting people up...what is Damon Jones? He didnt run an offense past his time on the Bucks. He might bring the ball up. But he didnt run anything.

I just...dont see it as simple as this guy is the point so hes supposed to make ___ and __ score. A point is failing in his duty to me when hes not an extension of the coaches will and the gameplan his team has practiced.

I understand my way of looking at things isnt quite normal...but I never strive to be normal.

With that I go to bed. goodnight all.....


I actually agree with most of this.

The point that I think you are missing is that Rose isn't asked to do some of those things because he can't do them.

Nobody is saying Rose is ignoring the coach and not running the plays properly. I'm saying the system is what it is because Rose can't be true point guard.

Its a huge flaw in his game.

That is what I feel you are missing.

[TheAnchorman]

I'm saying the system is what it is because Rose can't be true point guard.

Its a huge flaw in his game.

That is what I feel you are missing.

Soo..

Rose offseason 1: Worked on mid-range jumper
Rose offseason 2: Worked on 3-pter and outside shot


Rose offseason 3: ...Point guard skills? Defense?

[Lodi Dodi]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg

I loled. Aint gonna lie.

[derman]

Rose is not even the best pg on his own team.
CJ Watson is better than him as pg. Watson was +4 +/-. debrick was -7 +/-.
And you could see this difference in the game. When Watson was on, the bulls had a beautiful and effective ball movement, all players touching the ball, and they almost always found an open shot.

With debrick on, you could see the offense totally stalled. debrick monopolizing the ball, you could almost sense that he was deeply hurt when he had to pass it to someone. And when he made that pass, debrick run around and immediately asked for the ball back. debrick is the ultimate ball-hog, the bulls would be so much better with a pass-first pg who is shooting decent numbers.

[50inchvertical]

How about 9% (1-11) when defended by LeBron

[Heat007]

http://i55.tinypic.com/106edki.jpg


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Soo..

Rose offseason 1: Worked on mid-range jumper
Rose offseason 2: Worked on 3-pter and outside shot


Rose offseason 3: ...Point guard skills? Defense?

You bet. I have no doubt Rose can become a better pg and get smarter.

I'm not speaking to that. He shows signs of it as well. He and Westbrook are very similar right now. They both make passes a little late. They just don't see plays unfold ahead of time like a great pg does. They are a little behind the curve on that right now.

Rose getting an improved 3 point shot has hurt his game actually. He now settles for it way too often. Every time the shot clock goes under 10, he panics and settles for a long three.

[Harison]

The reason why the PG position must be played traditionally is just because of that. If your PG (the guy who dominates the ball) takes the ball up court and doesnt have a pass first mentality, then that alienates your teammates and beats the whole purpose of the PG role, a PG is not just a position, its a role. Those traits are anyways usual suspects for the PG being selfish, not trusting his teammates or simply being not a true PG.
Exactly, I would even extend that it doesnt matter in what position quaterback plays, PG (traditional), SF (like Lebron) or a big man (Wilt, KG sometimes), somebody has to. In some systems its possible to move away further and not have a true quaterback, like for triangle. Bulls dont run triangle, nor they have anyone else but Rose to be quaterback, and he is doing a poor job setting his teammates up.

Kblaze is arguing its all Thibs fault, because its his game plan and Rose just executing it. There is a grain of truth there, since Thibs isnt exactly offense genius and Rose is following his plan, but its also true PG has to have a great court vision and high BBIQ to execute properly. Cant teach that, either player has it, or he doesnt. With maturity and increasing understanding of game and proper timing Rose can improve, but only so much, he wont become playmaker like Nash or Kidd, ever. If anything, Rose is just like Westbrook.

What Bulls (or OKC) could do, is to either treat Rose/Westbrook like AI, and get someone else to run the offense. OKC in their important win actually benched Westbrook in 4Q and asked Eric Maynor to do the job.

Or they have to implement system which minimizes PG importance, like triangle.

Otherwise its extremely hard to win championship with PG's like AI, Westbrook or Rose, its inferior team offense. Actually AI and Rose went so far only because of team defense, but defense plus one-man show can only get team so far.

[BlackJoker23]

kblaze is right that bulls don't have anyone who can create offensively or that rose takes a lot of bailout shots cause of his teammates or that he gets doubled off the pick and roll and has to pass out but the thing is that happens to EVERY SINGLE superstar. Rose isn't the first one.

the whole time people were arguing that he was top 5, on Wade/lebron level etc but he simply isn't. you put wade on the bulls instead of rose and i guarantee he plays better and more efficient. wade had no offense next to him on the 09 or 10 heat yet he played a lot better than rose did. wade doesnt see his efficiency take a hit with increased volume. same with lebron.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

This is why Rose won't come back. He knows he'll be exposed.

[Wang Zhi Zhi]

Someone explain the pic of the girl?

[NumberSix]

Someone explain the pic of the girl?
You creepy.