Why do peeps act like Heat are more stacked than any other great title team??

[FourthTenor]

Is it just to try to detract from Lebron? To act like this team is so much better 2-12 than the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, Bulls, Pistons, etc???

Trying to make it seem as if Lebron has some inordinately stacked team for a title winner???

Even compared to a team like Dallas, when you compare the Heat's topheavy team to Dallas' incredible depth and cohesiveness, they grade out pretty similar.


Is it just people taking their cue from the media which loves to exaggerate controversy??? People think they have to jump on the "i hate lebron for the decision" bandwagon even tho it really wasnt that big a deal?

I mean its cool if youre rootin against him just for fun, nothin wrong with that really, but if youre actually a fan of basketball at least be honest with the facts. Lebron is playing at a blistering level and the Heat are in the finals not because they built some juggernaut that's never been seen before, but because now that theyre healthy the have a very good team 1-7 and Lebron + Wade are playing out of their mind defense and Lebron is decimating teams at the end of games as well.

The Heat arent some megaforce of talent collected together. Theyre built pretty much the same way any other team that wins titles is. You have to be built like that to make it that far.

[bond10]

Haters gonna hate. The Heat are top heavy, Lakers/Celtics/Mavs/Thunder/Nuggets are more evened out. All cancels out.

[50inchvertical]

Because the media told them to, plus it gives them "excuse" to hate on LeBron.

Jordan, Magic, and especially Bird played with more stacked squads.

[bingo123]

They are making exuses. It wasnt long ago, when those exact people were saying that this team has NO chance for winnig it all (2nd round at most) because they have no depth (not stacked team) and they have only 3 players that can play. Now they need something to discredit James and Wade if they beat Dallas and this "THEY ARE MOST STACKED TEAM IN HISTORY" seems like good excuse to them.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Because the media told them to, plus it gives them "excuse" to hate on LeBron.

Jordan, Magic, and especially Bird played with more stacked squads.
How was Bird's squads more stacked than Magic's Lakers?

:oldlol:

Jordan didn't play on any team more "stacked" than this current Heat team.

Please ...

[FourthTenor]

Just because other stars were gifted great teams in eras with only 24 franchise or whatever, and these guys had to exercise their RIGHT to be free agents in order to avoid having to tread in futility in a watered down 30 team field doesnt mean their team is inherently any greater or that theyve done something wrong.

Last I checked, the Lakers and Mavs take on payroll numbers that the rest of the league wouldnt even consider, in order to compete for titles. These teams are praised for this.


All the "reasoning" people give as to why they dislike the Heat holds up very, very poorly under scrutiny. Only thing that really was contemptible was the decision, but by doing it the way he did he raised 4 million dollars for charity. What a heartless bastard, right? Gee, I wonder who would have lost out bigger, inner city families who that money will go to help, or middle class clevelanders who didnt have their lifestyle affected in the least but had their feelings hurt because theyre too bourgeois to pick up a book or an instrument and instead attach all their identity and self worth to a sports team? Gimme a break!

[Samurai Swoosh]

Just because other stars were gifted great teams in eras with only 24 franchise or whatever, and these guys had to exercise their RIGHT to be free agents in order to avoid having to tread in futility in a watered down 30 team field doesnt mean their team is inherently any greater or that theyve done something wrong.

Last I checked, the Lakers and Mavs take on payroll numbers that the rest of the league wouldnt even consider, in order to compete for titles. These teams are praised for this.


All the "reasoning" people give as to why they dislike the Heat holds up very, very poorly under scrutiny. Only thing that really was contemptible was the decision, but by doing it the way he did he raised 4 million dollars for charity. What a heartless bastard, right? Gee, I wonder who would have lost out bigger, inner city families who that money will go to help, or middle class clevelanders who didnt have their lifestyle affected in the least but had their feelings hurt because theyre too bourgeois to pick up a book or an instrument and instead attach all their identity and self worth to a sports team? Gimme a break!
This is actually a really good post.

[FourthTenor]

Because the media told them to


I really think this is true.

Look what happens in baseball. Fans know that pretty much every all-star caliber player to play in the last 15 years took steroids. The ratings and popularity suggest fans dont care in the least.

But when the media reveals a specific few players that got popped, these guys get booed mercilessly at every stadium they go, as fans act completely incensed that someone could have considered cheating. These fans KNOW the whole league was cheating and dont even care, but they never pass up a good witch hunt.

It's so incredible to me how easily a mob can be influenced. Society just loves heroes and villains. If a team achieves something, we always have to pick out one person on it and elevate him above the rest and glorify him and make him legendary. Even if it was a total team effort. On the other hand, any chance we get to boo and hiss at someone accused of things we dont even show concern for when its applied generally rather than to a specific person, and suddenly we are waxing indignant at the top of our lungs.

Oy.

[SCdac]

because come the playoffs... this is pretty scary to see:

Lebron: 44 MPG
Wade: 40 MPG
Bosh: 40 MPG

It doesn't matter how evened out teams are, that's one of the best trios ever, seeing as how young and talented they are collectively.

[OmniStrife]

They are making exuses. It wasnt long ago, when those exact people were saying that this team has NO chance for winnig it all (2nd round at most) because they have no depth (not stacked team) and they have only 3 players that can play. Now they need something to discredit James and Wade if they beat Dallas and this "THEY ARE MOST STACKED TEAM IN HISTORY" seems like good excuse to them.
This. on so many levels of FAIL. :facepalm

[Indian guy]

The same people crying about Miami's talent right now were also the first ones calling them overrated all season, first to call them the Big 2 1/2, first to pick Boston in the 2nd round of the playoffs and first to pick Chicago in the conference finals.

Haters just need to STFU.

[LebronGOAT]

How was Bird's squads more stacked than Magic's Lakers?

:oldlol:

Jordan didn't play on any team more "stacked" than this current Heat team.

Please ...

The Bulls won 55 games in 94 without MJ and were one bad call from making the ECF that year...

[Micku]

I could understand the hate and everything.

Magic didn't join Larry Bird.

Barkley didn't join Jordan in his prime.

But their decision and they learn to operate well as a team to reach the Finals. That's good for them.

[LebronGOAT]

I agree. People just think that because the media told them that. Most people, whether they wanna admit or not, are sheep who are spoon fed their "own" thoughts by the media in all areas of life- including sports. Their perception of "reality" is based on what the consensus thinks- which is based on the mainstream media (in sports case ESPN, TNT etc).

People are trained to be good little puppets with no independent thinking of their own, but that does not stop them from thinking that they have a independent mind.

[bdreason]

Because Basketball is about your starting 5. And the Heat have the best SF in the game, the best SG in the game, and a top 5 PF.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The Bulls won 55 games in 94 without MJ and were one bad call from making the ECF that year...
No they weren't. There was two more games after the game with the bad foul call on Hubert Davis.

If they were good enough, they would've sealed the deal and moved on. Refs don't win and lose games for teams. That's an excuse made for chumps, losers, and pu$$ies.

Kids walking in here acting like they know what they're talking about when they refer to the 1994 Bulls.

I was around, I watched ball in 1994, I LIVED in Chicago. I know what I'm talking about.

That team also was born through championship fire for three straight years.

They won 55 games, and got bounced in the 2nd round w/o their leader. With Jordan? PERRENIAL CHAMPIONS ... without 2nd round exit.

No more need be said.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The same people crying about Miami's talent right now were also the first ones calling them overrated all season, first to call them the Big 2 1/2, first to pick Boston in the 2nd round of the playoffs and first to pick Chicago in the conference finals.

Haters just need to STFU.
On record, I never said they were overrated.

I had constant arguments with people telling them I knew they were going to be great.

Had Laker fans telling me how they would smash the Heat. When in reality, they were out classed in every single facet of the game in comparison to them.

[LebronGOAT]

No they weren't. There was two more games after the game with the bad foul call on Hubert Davis.

If they were good enough, they would've sealed the deal and moved on. Refs don't win and lose games for teams. That's an excuse made for chumps, losers, and pu$$ies.

Kids walking in here acting like they know what they're talking about when they refer to the 1994 Bulls.

I was around, I watched ball in 1994, I LIVED in Chicago. I know what I'm talking about.

That team also was born through championship fire for three straight years.

They won 55 games, and got bounced in the 2nd round w/o their leader. With Jordan? PERRENIAL CHAMPIONS ... without 2nd round exit.

No more need be said.

Chicago won 55 games without MJ and lost in 7 games to the Knicks lead by HOFer Ewing.

If that bad call does not happen midway in the series Chicago would have won that game and won the series period. Chicago lost in 7 and was robbed 1 game- they would have had it won if not for the bad call.

And a supporting cast winning 55 games is EXTREMELY impressive, let alone getting to game 7 of the 2nd round.

They took the EC CHAMPS to 7 games WITHOUT MJ.

There is no denying that supporting cast was very good.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because Miami is clearly more stacked than other championship teams. They have two top 3 players, a 3rd option who just made his 6th consecutive all-star team and a few good hustle players/defenders and good shooters for role players. How many teams have been stacked like that in the last 10-15 years?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Because Miami is clearly more stacked than other championship teams. They have two top 3 players, a 3rd option who just made his 6th consecutive all-star team and a few good hustle players/defenders and good shooters for role players. How many teams have been stacked like that in the last 10-15 years?
With three players that caliber on offense and defense? hmmm ... 2008 Celtics, but even then they are superior to them. So not since Magic Laker's? Magic / Worthy / Kareem ...

[ShaqAttack3234]

With three players that caliber on offense and defense? hmmm ... 2008 Celtics, but even then they are superior to them. So not since Magic Laker's? Magic / Worthy / Kareem ...

Yeah, Miami's big 3 is a lot more talented than Boston's, though Boston's big 3 fit together a little more naturally, though it seems that Miami's big 3 have ceratinly figured out how to co-exist.

The only other team I can remember in recent years having two top 3 players in the league were the '01 and '02 Lakers, but Miami also has a 6-time all-star as a 3rd option, while the Lakers didn't have anymore remotely close to an all-star caliber player after Shaq and Kobe, and they didn't have shooters that were as good either.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yeah, Miami's big 3 is a lot more talented than Boston's, though Boston's big 3 fit together a little more naturally, though it seems that Miami's big 3 have ceratinly figured out how to co-exist.

The only other team I can remember in recent years having two top 3 players in the league were the '01 and '02 Lakers, but Miami also has a 6-time all-star as a 3rd option, while the Lakers didn't have anymore remotely close to an all-star caliber player after Shaq and Kobe, and they didn't have shooters that were as good either.
Not at all ... so yea it has to be the 80's Lakers.

[magnax1]

Well, 2 best players in the league and another top 15 guy sounds great, but they don't have any depth otherwise. They are definitely more talented then LA this year, probably 08 Boston, but really they aren't that talented. Not as much as I originally thought they'd be when they put the team together at least.

[Samurai Swoosh]

but really they aren't that talented. Not as much as I originally thought they'd be when they put the team together at least.
Maybe because of LeBron's decline physically?

Are you talking about role players? Cause they aren't terrible. Haslem and Miller were supposed to be their best ones and they missed the majority of the year, and are just playing their way back into shape.

[magnax1]

Maybe because of LeBron's decline physically?

Are you talking about role players? Cause they aren't terrible. Haslem and Miller were supposed to be their best ones and they missed the majority of the year, and are just playing their way back into shape.
No, they definitely aren't terrible, but I do think the cap has done a good job of keeping the teams somewhat close in talent, especially the heat. So they really aren't that much more talented then everyone else. The Bulls were pretty close the whole series, and at the beggining of the year I couldn't see how having the 2 best players in the league (and by far the two best at that) wouldn't end up destroying the league, but I think their lack of cap space after the big 3 kept them from doing that.
So really, I don't know if teams are ever going to be stacked like the 96 Bulls, or 80s Lakers and Sixers again, Heat included.

[lilgodfather1]

This is the worst Miami Heat team that we will see for at least 4 years. They might even get better as LeBron/Wade/Bosh start to age because they will try to do less and just play ball. They might also hone their skills in the post (LeBron especially). Dalembert or Nene will make the Heat a force to be reckoned with.

[Human Error]

Because Miami is clearly more stacked than other championship teams. They have two top 3 players, a 3rd option who just made his 6th consecutive all-star team and a few good hustle players/defenders and good shooters for role players. How many teams have been stacked like that in the last 10-15 years?
They may be 3 deep but are they 8 deep or 10 deep? I don't think so. Other than 3 all-stars their roster is filled with scrap players. Mike Bibby and Joel Anthony aren't good enough to be rotation players on a playoff team let alone being starters, and the guy who was starting against Boston(Ilgauskas) was not even active against Chicago. Joel Anthony and Mike Bibby may have a shot at being the worst starting 1,5 combination in the NBA Finals history.

[RedBlackAttack]

They may be 3 deep but are they 8 deep or 10 deep?
It doesn't matter a whole lot in the playoffs. Those are regular season issues, which is why the Heat were relatively underwhelming in the first 82 games (at least, compared to what was expected).

In the playoffs, rotations are cut down to between 7 and 8 guys, so having a team that can go 10-12 deep doesn't do much for you. Miami's playoff rotation and in terms of the actual guys on the floor at any moment in a game, is far better than any team I can remember.

I mean, they can rest the best player in the NBA briefly and let the second best player run the show. Or, they can rest the second best player in the NBA and allow the best player in the league to run the show. Or, they can play both the best and second best players in the NBA and give one of the top PFs in the game a rest.

Or, they can play all three guys together (which happens for the vast majority of playoff games) and simply overwhelm teams with talent.

Then, they have defensive specialists like Chalmers, Anthony and Haslem, shooters like Mike Miller, James Jones and a veteran ball-handler and playoff performer like Mike Bibby.

This team is absolutely stacked.... Especially in a playoff scenario.


The 80s Lakers are the closest thing I can recall, but the difference is, those teams had to go against other insanely stacked teams, because the league was much smaller and different CBA rules made it easier to build crazy talented teams like the 80s Pistons, Celtics, Sixers, Rockets, Bulls, etc.

This current Heat team has absolutely no equal or anything close to it in today's NBA. If the Mavs were to win the title, it would be on teamwork, the ability to play great together, and very smart gameplanning, because from a talent perspective, it shouldn't be close.

[Nobler]

Prime Shaq Prime Kobe duo was more potent than modern day Heat big three IMO. Laker fans complaining :roll:

[RedBlackAttack]

Prime Shaq Prime Kobe duo was more potent than modern day Heat big three IMO. Laker fans complaining :roll:
Not from a purely 'talent' perspective. But, Shaq was such a dominating force, he may have made up for the talent disparity. I would definitely favor the 2001 Lakers over this Heat team because Shaq would brutally brutalize them inside...

But, that doesn't mean that the Lakers were 'more stacked.' They just happened to have THE most dominating player of the era at the position where the Heat would have no response.

[Hoopz2332]

The "Shaq years" Mimai team was more stacked than this current one easily

Shaq (the first 2 seasons of him being there was when he still looked like prime Shaq and would get teams into quick foul trouble)

A Walker (still was good)

James Posey (lockdown d and tons of clutch baskets..)

Payton (washed up but better than anyhting the heat have @ PG right now)

Jason Williams (still was good)

Alonzo ( that version of Alonzo would challenge/give current Dwight Howard a run as far as protecting the paint)

Haslem

Wade (obviously)


...mnay teams from 2000-2005 were far stacked. Those Webber's Kings, Dirk's Mavs, Rasheeds's Blazerz etc..Those 3 teams basically had starter quality types on their benches!!:eek:

[Nobler]

Not from a purely 'talent' perspective. But, Shaq was such a dominating force, he may have made up for the talent disparity. I would definitely favor the 2001 Lakers over this Heat team because Shaq would brutally brutalize them inside...

But, that doesn't mean that the Lakers were 'more stacked.' They just happened to have THE most dominating player of the era at the position where the Heat would have no response.


Yeah i can see that i guess. The thing that bothers me the most is that every team and every player has had the opportunity to do this before Lebron and company they just didnt. So we should fault them for taking the initiative?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Not from a purely 'talent' perspective. But, Shaq was such a dominating force, he may have made up for the talent disparity. I would definitely favor the 2001 Lakers over this Heat team because Shaq would brutally brutalize them inside....
While that is true ...

Shaq couldn't close. That was strictly Kobe.

The Heat have 2 bonnafide closers in Wade and James.

And even in these playoffs, Bosh has shown he comes up big when it matters.

They are stacked.

[RedBlackAttack]

Yeah i can see that i guess. The thing that bothers me the most is that every team and every player has had the opportunity to do this before Lebron and company they just didnt. So we should fault them for taking the initiative?
A lot of us do fault them, yes.

Every single 'greatest player in the game' during a specific era could have had the 'option' of joining the 'other' best player in the game in their primes... Whether it be taking less money or forming some kind of three-year long pact like these guys did. The other great players just didn't, in the name of competitiveness and carving out your own legacy.

I don't want to get into that whole debate again, because it has been trampled upon over the months, but forgive me if I'm not overly impressed by this group waltzing to a championship with the amount of talent that they have accrued.

It didn't help that this was a really down year for the East, being that the Celtics were a shell of their former selves and Chicago clearly wasn't ready for primetime, but I just don't find this Heat team much fun to watch (which is why I really haven't watched much).

When you have the two best players in the NBA on the same team and an elite PF along with a handful of really good role players, a championship should be absolutely expected...

Especially in today's league where both the rules and league expansion have made it so difficult to form really stacked teams comparable to those of the 70s and 80s.

That is just my take, though...

[Nobler]

I can see what you mean for sure. Hopefully this just leads to better teams to rival them. Wrecked small market teams tho

[DMAVS41]

Because Miami is clearly more stacked than other championship teams. They have two top 3 players, a 3rd option who just made his 6th consecutive all-star team and a few good hustle players/defenders and good shooters for role players. How many teams have been stacked like that in the last 10-15 years?

Individually yes, but you can't judge teams like that.

There are so many teams that had less overall star power but were better teams.

I'd take the 08 Celtics over this Heat team.
I'd take the 10 Lakers over this Heat team.

Wade and Lebron would be the two best players on those teams, but that is not how teams work.

Success doesn't make them something they aren't.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

DWade's team has 3 HOFers in their PRIME (yes, Bosh will be an HOFer when all is said and done... too many all-star games to ignore and now he will have multiple rings).
Kareem wasn't in his prime, but he was close.
I suppose Bird's Celtics had 3 in their prime.

[Indian guy]

The other great players just didn't, in the name of competitiveness and carving out your own legacy.

Has zilch to do with "competitiveness" & "carving" out one's own legacy. They didn't bolt the franchise that drafted them because they were fortunate enough to play on loaded teams from the get-go. None of them rotted for 7 years on a franchise with the likes of Larry Hughes and 'Mo Williams.

MJ's really the lone exception to this. He didn't play with an All Star and a truly great roster around him until his 6th year. The rest of the greats on other hand? All of 'em were part of contenders by their 3rd season. Some from their very first season(Bird/Magic).


but forgive me if I'm not overly impressed by this group waltzing to a championship with the amount of talent that they have accrued.

Dude, nobody on this board has picked apart Miami's make-up and talent level more than you. You have doubted them all season and have picked the field to win the championship at every step. So nobody's buying your "not overly impressed" talk. We know what's truly bothering you here.


It didn't help that this was a really down year for the East, being that the Celtics were a shell of their former selves and Chicago clearly wasn't ready for primetime

You sure didn't say this when Miami was going up against Boston and Chicago. You picked both of those teams over Miami.


but I just don't find this Heat team much fun to watch (which is why I really haven't watched much).

Well, if ratings are any indication, the rest of Ohio certainly disagrees with you. They find Miami fascinating. As does the rest of the world.


When you have the two best players in the NBA on the same team and an elite PF along with a handful of really good role players, a championship should be absolutely expected...

Gee, why couldn't you say this all year? Yet all I ever heard was LeBron-Wade can't play together, Bosh's soft, the rest of the roster outside the Big 3 sucks, picking Boston in the 2nd round, picking Chicago in the 3rd round and I could keep going. Your current thoughts don't really gel with what you've been saying all year. You're changing your tune now because it KILLS you to see LeBron win and you need an excuse to feel better. That's all.

[DMAVS41]

A lot of us do fault them, yes.

Every single 'greatest player in the game' during a specific era could have had the 'option' of joining the 'other' best player in the game in their primes... Whether it be taking less money or forming some kind of three-year long pact like these guys did. The other great players just didn't, in the name of competitiveness and carving out your own legacy.

I don't want to get into that whole debate again, because it has been trampled upon over the months, but forgive me if I'm not overly impressed by this group waltzing to a championship with the amount of talent that they have accrued.

It didn't help that this was a really down year for the East, being that the Celtics were a shell of their former selves and Chicago clearly wasn't ready for primetime, but I just don't find this Heat team much fun to watch (which is why I really haven't watched much).

When you have the two best players in the NBA on the same team and an elite PF along with a handful of really good role players, a championship should be absolutely expected...

Especially in today's league where both the rules and league expansion have made it so difficult to form really stacked teams comparable to those of the 70s and 80s.

That is just my take, though...

You shouldn't be overly impressed at all. You should feel like most do that this team winning a title with a healthy haslem and miller is nothing special.

Much like most of the titles magic and bird won. Of course they won titles. They had two of the most stacked teams ever.

What you shouldn't do however, is hold this team against the players in any way. 4 of the top ten players spent huge chunks of their careers playing together....Magic/Kareem and Shaq/Kobe......

So lets put the title in perspective. Give them credit if they win, but not the kind of credit that guys like Duncan or Hakeem or Shaq in 00 or Jordan in a few years deserve.

Its hard to quantify, but lebron winning a title this year is worth about half of duncan's ring in 03 for me. something like that.

But I can't ignore any title, because historically the NBA has been ruled by loaded rosters that are even or better than this Heat team right now.

[DMAVS41]

Has zilch to do with "competitiveness" & "carving" out one's own legacy. They didn't bolt the franchise that drafted them because they were fortunate enough to play on loaded teams from the get-go. None of them rotted for 7 years on a franchise with the likes of Larry Hughes and 'Mo Williams.

MJ's really the lone exception to this. He didn't play with an All Star and a truly great roster around him until his 6th year. The rest of the greats on other hand? All of 'em were part of contenders by their 3rd season. Some from their very first season(Bird/Magic).



Dude, nobody on this board has picked apart Miami's make-up and talent level more than you. You have doubted them all season and have picked the field to win the championship at every step. So nobody's buying your "not overly impressed" talk. We know what's truly bothering you here.



You sure didn't say this when Miami was going up against Boston and Chicago. You picked both of those teams over Miami.



Well, if ratings are any indication, the rest of Ohio certainly disagrees with you. They find Miami fascinating. As does the rest of the world.



Gee, why couldn't you say this all year? Yet all I ever heard was LeBron-Wade can't play together, Bosh's soft, the rest of the roster outside the Big 3 sucks, picking Boston in the 2nd round, picking Chicago in the 3rd round and I could keep going. Your current thoughts don't really gel with what you've been saying all year. You're changing your tune now because it KILLS you to see LeBron win and you need an excuse to feel better. That's all.

This title should be put in proper place historically. Its not up there with the most impressive titles ever or anything, but its not like its worth nothing either.

Everyone doubted this team because its not as good as people are making out to be right now. I doubted them all year. I did not think they could win. However, I didn't expect Miller or Haslem to be factors.

This title should not be any less impressive than any Bird or Magic titles. So the butt-hurt Cavs fans and Lebron/Wade haters need to STFU about trying to pretend like this is the best team ever.

I'm not overly impressed with any of Magic's or Birds' titles. Why would I be. Those guys played with the most help by far in the modern era.....along with Kobe.

So lets all tap the breaks on this notion that its just unfair now.

[FourthTenor]

Shaq couldn't close. That was strictly Kobe.



Really? Strictly Kobe?

So it wasn't Horry and Fisher?

Just Kobe? With all those beastly Finals FG% he put up? :rolleyes:

[FourthTenor]

Because Basketball is about your starting 5. And the Heat have the best SF in the game, the best SG in the game, and a top 5 PF.

So James Posey didnt play any kind of role for two different title winning teams as a bench player?

Lamar Odom aint really do anything for the Lakers as the sixth man? That really didnt help them much in repeating?

btw, who are the Heat playing in the finals?

[DMAVS41]

DWade's team has 3 HOFers in their PRIME (yes, Bosh will be an HOFer when all is said and done... too many all-star games to ignore and now he will have multiple rings).
Kareem wasn't in his prime, but he was close.
I suppose Bird's Celtics had 3 in their prime.

You can't break a team down just like that. All-stars? Really?

[Tez62]

This title should be put in proper place historically. Its not up there with the most impressive titles ever or anything, but its not like its worth nothing either.

Everyone doubted this team because its not as good as people are making out to be right now. I doubted them all year. I did not think they could win. However, I didn't expect Miller or Haslem to be factors.

This title should not be any less impressive than any Bird or Magic titles. So the butt-hurt Cavs fans and Lebron/Wade haters need to STFU about trying to pretend like this is the best team ever.

I'm not overly impressed with any of Magic's or Birds' titles. Why would I be. Those guys played with the most help by far in the modern era.....along with Kobe.

So lets all tap the breaks on this notion that its just unfair now.

You have to also factor in the titles when Magic and Bird actually played against eachother...

They played against more stacked teams in general

[DMAVS41]

You have to also factor in the titles when Magic and Bird actually played against eachother...

They played against more stacked teams in general

True. And then you'd also have to factor in how much better the actual teams were and how much depth they had.....etc.

And again. Bird won 3. If we are consistent, thats not overly impressive as the RedBlack said. I'm just following his line of thinking and trying to put that same view on other players and teams.

3 titles from Bird on those loaded teams year in year out? Not overly impressive. So if we are going to that stance with Lebron, better take that stance with guys like bird, magic, kareem, and kobe. Because those guys played with just as much help or more for a lot longer than Lebron has.

Which is exactly why titles are over-rated as shit when comparing players. If this year doesn't prove that then I don't know what will. You have Dirk and Lebron in the finals. Two players that have been all time great since 08 but didn't get much help. They finally get help? 12-3 in the playoffs and they are in the finals. Both having all time great playoff runs....especially Dirk.

Team. It is and always will be a team sport. We should acknowledge that or stop comparing player at all.

[LA_Showtime]

Because they have two of the best players in the game, a top 3 PF, a few terrific role players, and a solid head coach who's only going to improve. Don't get me wrong, if they win the title they deserve all the credit, but it won't be nearly as historic because of the talent level they're working with. The only flaw this team has is depth, and having the luxury of playing the big three 40 plus minutes a night more than makes up for that.

[DMAVS41]

Because they have two of the best players in the game, a top 3 PF, a few terrific role players, and a solid head coach who's only going to improve. Don't get me wrong, if they win the title they deserve all the credit, but it won't be nearly as historic because of the talent level they're working with. The only flaw this team has is depth, and having the luxury of playing the big three 40 plus minutes a night more than makes up for that.

For sure.

Just like most of Bird's and Magic's and Kareem's titles weren't historic either.

Which goes back to my huge problems with comparing players so heavily on rings. Duncan should be damn near the GOAT if you factor in the circumstances in which he won. His 03 title was historic and then he won 3 more without an all nba player.

Do people do that though? Nope.

Just more reasons why titles are over-rated.

[KOLBCTEW]

Then, they have defensive specialists like Chalmers
Who tends to be inconsistent even on defense.


, Anthony
While he plays good defense he's still one of the worst offensive players in the nba.


and Haslem,Who still has quite a ways to go before he's fully recovered hence he didn't even make a field goal in game 4 or 5.



shooters like Mike Miller,,Mike Miller has two injured thumbs that require surgery. Which is why he's been so awful for quite a while now.


James Jones,,Is still battling a foot and toe injury which is why he hasn't been in the lineup for quite some time now.


and a veteran ball-handler and playoff performer like Mike Bibby. :roll: Bibby has been virtually useless in these playoffs. Only significant contribution of note he's made is probably this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEeIynPcZPA

[DMAVS41]

Who tends to be inconsistent even on defense.

While he plays good defense he's still one of the worst offensive players in the nba.
Who still has quite a ways to go before he's fully recovered hence he didn't even make a field goal in game 4 or 5.

Mike Miller has two injured thumbs that require surgery. Which is why he's been so awful for quite a while now.
Is still battling a foot and toe injury which is why he hasn't been in the lineup for quite some time now.
:roll: Bibby has been virtually useless in these playoffs. Only significant contribution of note he's made is probably this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEeIynPcZPA

Forgive him. He is used to grossly over-rating role players from years of thinking the Cavs had legit title contending squads around Lebron.

[LA_Showtime]

For sure.

Just like most of Bird's and Magic's and Kareem's titles weren't historic either.

Which goes back to my huge problems with comparing players so heavily on rings. Duncan should be damn near the GOAT if you factor in the circumstances in which he won. His 03 title was historic and then he won 3 more without an all nba player.

Do people do that though? Nope.

Just more reasons why titles are over-rated.

If Miami wins the title this season it'll be a notch below Magic and Bird's titles. Whether that's fair or not, who knows?

Winning cures everything, though, and the Heat are only going to get better. We may be witnessing the birth of a new, scarier dynasty that we haven't seen since Kobe and Shaq. The only way I don't see this team becoming a dynasty is if Wade falls off or LeBron doesn't regain any of his athleticism, but even then they've got role players like Miller and Haslem who are better than they've played this year.

[Samurai Swoosh]

back to my huge problems with comparing players so heavily on rings. Duncan should be damn near the GOAT if you factor in the circumstances in which he won. His 03 title was historic and then he won 3 more without an all nba player.
:oldlol:

What?

[DMAVS41]

If Miami wins the title this season it'll be a notch below Magic and Bird's titles. Whether that's fair or not, who knows?

Winning cures everything, though, and the Heat are only going to get better. We may be witnessing the birth of a new, scarier dynasty that we haven't seen since Kobe and Shaq. The only way I don't see this team becoming a dynasty is if Wade falls off or LeBron doesn't regain any of his athleticism, but even then they've got role players like Miller and Haslem who are better than they've played this year.

I don't think it'll be a notch below when its all said and done. Thats not how it works usually. Its just get the rings.

If Lebron and Wade win three rings together and play well in doing so, nobody is going to look back and say those three aren't equal to Bird's three. Just no way.

When players as great as Lebron and Wade start piling up rings, nobody is going to care how they got them as long as they play well in the process.

As evidenced by MJ comparison for Lebron before he's won his first ring. And not just by fan boys. Stat guys. Former players like Pippen and Oscar.....

Its going to get really good or really bad fast if Lebron/Wade win a ring....good if you are a fan of them, bad if you aren't.

I'm just still hoping that my Mavs beat them. Because it would be one of the most impressive titles ever if they do win. People can't have it both ways.

[Hoopz2332]

OMG, someone mentioned Bibby as a sign of Mimai being stacked? I guess they haven't seen this aryicle written about him during these playoffs:roll:

Bibby's productivity reaches all-time low

[quote]MIAMI -- Mike Bibby

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol:

What?

What are you talking about?

Duncan's 03 title is the 2nd most impressive title by a superstar since 1975.

His other three titles were won without an all nba teammate.

I'm confused on what you have a problem with.

[bl2k8]

For sure.

Just like most of Bird's and Magic's and Kareem's titles weren't historic either.

Which goes back to my huge problems with comparing players so heavily on rings. Duncan should be damn near the GOAT if you factor in the circumstances in which he won. His 03 title was historic and then he won 3 more without an all nba player.

Do people do that though? Nope.

Just more reasons why titles are over-rated.
Beating this Mavericks squad wouldn't be historic at all, the 80's Lakers went up against teams with other Big 3's. Historically teams like the Mavs don't win titles, you should know this. And yea Duncans 03 title performance was impressive but at the same time he didn't go up against any teams that were flat out better or more well rounded.

[DMAVS41]

Beating this Mavericks squad wouldn't be historic at all, the 80's Lakers went up against teams with other Big 3's. Historically teams like the Mavs don't win titles, you should know this. And yea Duncans 03 title performance was impressive but at the same time he didn't go up against any teams that were flat out better or more well rounded.

Who said the Heat beating the Mavs would be historic? Not me.

You had the Lakers and Celtics. One of them had to win. Am I supposed to do a song and dance because Bird managed to win 3 titles in the 80's playing with a bunch of hall of famers and deep teams?

Bird is a great player and I'd expect him to win 2 or 3 titles in those circumstances.

Same with Lebron and Wade. I expect them to win 3 titles together. I'm not going to go crazy if they do.

Just like Shaq and Kobe winning 3 titles in 8 years together is about what they should have done. Not overly impressed.

Thats the point. You can't start putting an asterisk on a potential title by the Heat. Doesn't mean its any better than it is. Just means that NBA history has been dominated by the best teams with all the talent.

What matters is how players play. Not some BS standard for winning with less help that people are trying to enforce here now.

As for Duncan, he beat the three time defending champion Lakers with Shaq, Kobe, and the GOAT coach....and he did that without much help and no 2nd option. Historic title. He deserves a lot more credit than he gets for that title.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Mike Bibby was one of the most overrated PGs for a LONG time.

I remember in the early to mid 2000's people always wanted to say he was an All Star caliber player, and that he was always getting snubbed on all star appearances because he had a few fantastic shooting games v.s. the Lakers in the 2002 WCF.

He's a jump shooting PG who could never do anything else. And was absolutely horrific on the defensive end. Worse than Steve Nash (who is now practically an underrated defender), worse than anyone you can think of ...

He wasn't even that good at creating for others.

In fact initially people thought Bibby > J. Will ... and that Jason Williams was all flash and no substance.

Post Hubie Brown, Jason Williams was actually a very smart PG. Obvious as he was a MAJOR contributor on a very good Heat teams in 2005 and 2006. Being the fascilitator of a championship team.

God I hate Mike Bibby. I don't know WHY they don't just start Chalmers. He gives you at this point the same amount of offense, he can actually push the tempo, and he's a vastly superior defender.

[Samurai Swoosh]

What are you talking about?

Duncan's 03 title is the 2nd most impressive title by a superstar since 1975.

His other three titles were won without an all nba teammate.

I'm confused on what you have a problem with.
2003 was impressive. But the rest?

1999 championship doesn't count.

2003? He wasn't playing next to chopped liver ...

He faced one of the worst Finals teams in recent memory, alongside the 2007 Cavs.

Went up against a team who had Jason Kidd, and role players.

2005 and 2007 he had Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Robert Horry ...

That's two perrenial all star talents next to him.

[LA_Showtime]

I don't think it'll be a notch below when its all said and done. Thats not how it works usually. Its just get the rings.

If Lebron and Wade win three rings together and play well in doing so, nobody is going to look back and say those three aren't equal to Bird's three. Just no way.

When players as great as Lebron and Wade start piling up rings, nobody is going to care how they got them as long as they play well in the process.

As evidenced by MJ comparison for Lebron before he's won his first ring. And not just by fan boys. Stat guys. Former players like Pippen and Oscar.....

Its going to get really good or really bad fast if Lebron/Wade win a ring....good if you are a fan of them, bad if you aren't.

I'm just still hoping that my Mavs beat them. Because it would be one of the most impressive titles ever if they do win. People can't have it both ways.

If they win multiple titles, it will come back to haunt them eventually. LeBron had the potential to be the GOAT, and by taking his talents to south beach he basically said he's okay finishing in the 4-10 range. Wade's already underrated, so there's no need to play the "Well he had LeBron" card.

[LA_Showtime]

What matters is how players play. Not some BS standard for winning with less help that people are trying to enforce here now.



I find that quote amusing, as you were trolling Laker threads after the Mavericks swept them, telling everyone it was a massive fail because the Lakers lost, though as you said, what matters is how the players play.

[LA_Showtime]

If they win multiple titles, it will come back to haunt them eventually. LeBron had the potential to be the GOAT, and by taking his talents to south beach he basically said he's okay finishing in the 4-10 range. Wade's already underrated, so there's no need to play the "Well he had LeBron" card.

I hate quoting myself, but I just find it hilarious that LeBron can finish in the 4-10 range and he'll still be in a "What if" situation.

[DMAVS41]

If they win multiple titles, it will come back to haunt them eventually. LeBron had the potential to be the GOAT, and by taking his talents to south beach he basically said he's okay finishing in the 4-10 range. Wade's already underrated, so there's no need to play the "Well he had LeBron" card.

I think you will be surprised how people react to winning. I think Lebron probably gave up his MJ card, but I think everyone else is fair game.

And this will boost Wade's career up dramatically if they win multiple titles.

Its just the way it is, rings are way too important in player comparisons.

If a player as good as Lebron gets 3 or 4 titles and continues playing like this he's going to get top 2 or top 3 talk of all time. Doesn't make it accurate, just the way it is.

[DMAVS41]

I find that quote amusing, as you were trolling Laker threads after the Mavericks swept them, telling everyone it was a massive fail because the Lakers lost, though as you said, what matters is how the players play.

And the Lakers played like shit.

Which is why they got swept.

What?

[LA_Showtime]

I think you will be surprised how people react to winning. I think Lebron probably gave up his MJ card, but I think everyone else is fair game.

And this will boost Wade's career up dramatically if they win multiple titles.

Its just the way it is, rings are way too important in player comparisons.

If a player as good as Lebron gets 3 or 4 titles and continues playing like this he's going to get top 2 or top 3 talk of all time. Doesn't make it accurate, just the way it is.

I guess we'll see. I have no problem with LeBron finishing in the top 3 all-time. Personally, I think he can still surpass Jordan, although he'll have to have a historic run over the next 5-6 years, and adjust his game accordingly to accommodate the aging process.

Wade's situation is more interesting. I don't think his peak level of play surpasses Kobe, but he's as good if not better of a playoff performer as Kobe, and there's a good chance he'll have 3-4 titles when it's all said and done. I think at best he'll knock Kobe down a spot, but even that's unlikely.

[LA_Showtime]

And the Lakers played like shit.

Which is why they got swept.

What?

Don't act confused. You kept trolling the threads and that post of yours somewhat contradicts what you said. I can understand if it was all fun and games, but don't pretend like you have no idea what I'm talking about. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I guess we'll see. I have no problem with LeBron finishing in the top 3 all-time. Personally, I think he can still surpass Jordan, although he'll have to have a historic run over the next 5-6 years, and adjust his game accordingly to accommodate the aging process.

Wade's situation is more interesting. I don't think his peak level of play surpasses Kobe, but he's as good if not better of a playoff performer as Kobe, and there's a good chance he'll have 3-4 titles when it's all said and done. I think at best he'll knock Kobe down a spot, but even that's unlikely.

Wade will never get the credit he actually deserves. I think Wade is a slightly better player than Kobe, but I'm good with anyone taking Kobe as long as the acknowledge that they are very close either way.

But in order for Wade to surpass Kobe, he has to prove he can play a key role on 3 or 4 title teams.

We'll see what happens. Wade is a lock for the top 15 of all time if the Heat win it this year. Anything more than that depends on how the next 5 years of his career go.

[DMAVS41]

Don't act confused. You kept trolling the threads and that post of yours somewhat contradicts what you said. I can understand if it was all fun and games, but don't pretend like you have no idea what I'm talking about. :oldlol:

I have no idea.

Please explain it to me.

The Mavs winning that series was a huge upset. Just because the Lakers played poorly does not change that.

Is that what you are getting at?

[Samurai Swoosh]

If they win multiple titles, it will come back to haunt them eventually. LeBron had the potential to be the GOAT, and by taking his talents to south beach he basically said he's okay finishing in the 4-10 range.
I actually think it was Maverick Carter, LeBron's mentor and agent that pushed him to do it and really pulled the strings on this. He was probably feeling the heat (pun intended) of two years in a row getting bounced prematurely, when we all knew he should've been playing in the Finals.

Maverick studied from the best sports managers in the world @ Nike. And I remember seeing an interview where Carter said the most important thing for an athletes legacy is championships. And while that is true, context plays a HUGE role. The heroism he was capable of being successful in his home town pro team, displaying the athleticism, statistics and performances he put on a regular basis ... would've been FAR, FAR greater than anything he can achieve with the Heat and teaming up with a player of equal abilities and an ELITE power forward in another state, mid way through his career.

You can tell LeBron is easily influenced. He didn't have a true father figure growing up, so he overly latches onto friends, or bad father figures, in this case ... Maverick Carter. I think this year's stress has truly played a toll on him. I'm sure on many levels he regrets his decision, even though he will never conceed that, especially not if they do win a ring soon. But I mean the stress is manifesting itself physically. People may think it's trivial or weird, but just look at his hair line. It's always been bad, but look how thick his hair was just last year, and how bad its thinning out this year and receeding. THAT is an actual medical physical manifestation of stress.

I've seen it happen to loved ones during stressful times in their life.

It's truly ashame because if he continued to play in Cleveland, continued to be beloved, where he truly looked HAPPY when he played. Dancing on the court, etc. And was able to continue the statistical DOMINANCE that allowed him to be in legit discussion with MJ, and then he won rings in Cleveland? He would have had a legit case for GOAT discussion.

Instead he took the easy way out, possibly pressure externally, and not sacrificed LEGIT GOAT discussion, to settle for quick championships and in the process settling for all-time 6 - 10 range. Now, if he does win like 7 or 8 rings, he could get back into that top five all time discussion. But if he would've kept up his individual dominance and pace in Cleveland all he would've needed was 2 - 3 rings, and I would've put him in the top five all-time EASILY and he would've been neck and neck with Jordan (to me)

It's ashame he cheated himself, and all of us fans of the history of the game from truly witnessing something remarkable.

:(

[pmj]

I
Instead he took the easy way out, possibly pressure externally, and not sacrificed LEGIT GOAT discussion, to settle for quick championships and in the process settling for all-time 6 - 10 range. Now, if he does win like 7 or 8 rings, he could get back into that top five all time discussion. But if he would've kept up his individual dominance and pace in Cleveland all he would've needed was 2 - 3 rings, and I would've put him in the top five all-time EASILY and he would've been neck and neck with Jordan (to me)

It's ashame he cheated himself, and all of us fans of the history of the game from truly witnessing something remarkable.

:(

The bottom line is if Cleveland had gotten one legit and capable all-star, he probably would have already won and would have stayed. Why should he continue to stay in the hopes that they'll finally learn how to fill out a roster?

So that one day people can say he's as good as Jordan? That doesn't scream EGO to you? Kobe is probably the only guy that is obsessed with being Jordan to that degree. Dude just wanted to win period, and let the legacy stuff fall where it may. It's laughable you'd rather have a superstar that cares about their image instead of winning.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The bottom line is if Cleveland had gotten one legit and capable all-star, he probably would have already won and would have stayed. Why should he continue to stay in the hopes that they'll finally learn how to fill out a roster?

So that one day people can say he's as good as Jordan? That doesn't scream EGO to you? Kobe is probably the only guy that is obsessed with being Jordan to that degree. Dude just wanted to win period, and let the legacy stuff fall where it may. It's laughable you'd rather have a superstar that cares about their image instead of winning.
As you can see ... many people have the same issue.

Sometimes HOW you win, can be more important than just winning.

[dunksby]

If they win 6 rings or so together nobody is gonna say shit about them. But if they fail to deliver well dont expect any sympathy going their way.

[FourthTenor]

Because they have two of the best players in the game, a top 3 PF, a few terrific role players, and a solid head coach who's only going to improve. Don't get me wrong, if they win the title they deserve all the credit, but it won't be nearly as historic because of the talent level they're working with. The only flaw this team has is depth, and having the luxury of playing the big three 40 plus minutes a night more than makes up for that.


Really, a top 3 power forward?

Dirk and Blake are obviously better than him. After that there are a ton of teams with PF's on the same tier as Bosh: Guys like Randolph, Aldridge, Amare, Duncan, Gasol, Horford, Garnett, Scola etc.

If Bosh is a top 3 PF then its a long ass tie at that spot. There's a ton of good PF's throughout the league right now.



So couldnt you say when the Spurs won their titles they had "two of the best players in the league (duncan, ginobili) and a top 3 PG in Parker and then a DPOY in Bowen, a HOF coach, great bench etc.

Oh, but "thats different" right? Because the Spurs front office knew how to get good players together and the Cavs and Raptors didnt. So that's these guys' fault. :rolleyes:

[pmj]

As you can see ... many people have the same issue.

Sometimes HOW you win, can be more important than just winning.

I would agree if he came to Miami and role played while Wade did his thing, but that's not what is happening. I've always said the HOW will be the determining factor, not who the teammates are.

So far, Lebron has been the clutch one in the playoffs, has been the better player overall, and has had to step it up on the defensive end. And Wade is only gonna get older. Even if Wade had been equals this year, age alone would mean that Lebron is going to overtake him, and if he has multiple titles as the clear cut MAN, people will remember that and not that Wade was once considered top 3 for a few years, when it's all said and done. Just like not many remembered Pippen was considered top 5 and by some the 2nd best player in the league during their runs.

[RedBlackAttack]

Wow... the Broniacs are out in the full force today.

Probably be steering clear of the main forum until it ceases a bit.

[DMAVS41]

Wow... the Broniacs are out in the full force today.

Probably be steering clear of the main forum until it ceases a bit.

I think posts like this are funny coming from a person that is trying to downplay a potential title in a way that you would not do to other players in NBA history.

I don't really care all that much though. I just find it interesting.

If my Mavs win, I'm going to bump all of these:

"Heat are the most stacked team ever" posts and threads. Will be funny to see the same people backpedal and act like the Mavs should have won and try to find a way to not give Dirk enough credit.

Not a bad situation here right now. If the Mavs and Dirk lose...they are simply losing to the most stacked team the league has ever seen. And if they win, well......that should vault good old Dirky up to legit top 15 talk. Love it.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think posts like this are funny coming from a person that is trying to downplay a potential title in a way that you would not do to other players in NBA history.

I don't really care all that much though. I just find it interesting.

If my Mavs win, I'm going to bump all of these:

"Heat are the most stacked team ever" posts and threads. Will be funny to see the same people backpedal and act like the Mavs should have won and try to find a way to not give Dirk enough credit.

Not a bad situation here right now. If the Mavs and Dirk lose...they are simply losing to the most stacked team the league has ever seen. And if they win, well......that should vault good old Dirky up to legit top 15 talk. Love it.

If the Mavs win the series, it won't be due to their overwhelming talent. There will be no backpedaling.

The best two players in the NBA playing on the same team plus an elite PF is a stacked team, regardless of how you would like to spin it. If that isn't a stacked teams -- in terms of pure talent -- then there has NEVER been a stacked team in the history of the league.

And, I wouldn't be 'downplaying' a title due to a stacked team if people weren't already making comparisons between you-know-who and guys like MJ. Fortunately, Dirk is in no danger of having threads like that started about him.

[DMAVS41]

If the Mavs win the series, it won't be due to their overwhelming talent. There will be no backpedaling.

The best two players in the NBA playing on the same team plus an elite PF is a stacked team, regardless of how you would like to spin it.

Is anyone saying its not a stacked team? If so, I'm definitely not.

I just find it funny how much a couple weeks can change things.

The Mavs go from being a laughing stock team picked by many to lose in the first round (including me) and now I hear that them beating the Lakers and making the finals is no big deal.

On the other side many people picked the Celtics and Bulls to beat the Heat and now I hear its unfair how good they are.

Just doesn't make sense.

And it certainly isn't fair to hold Lebron or Wade or this Heat team to a standard that no team in NBA history was held to.

Unless you want to say that you are not impressed much with Bird's titles or Magic's titles or Russell's titles or Kobe's titles then I don't think its a fair stance at all.

[King Lebron LBJ]

Is anyone saying its not a stacked team? If so, I'm definitely not.

I just find it funny how much a couple weeks can change things.

The Mavs go from being a laughing stock team picked by many to lose in the first round (including me) and now I hear that them beating the Lakers and making the finals is no big deal.

On the other side many people picked the Celtics and Bulls to beat the Heat and now I hear its unfair how good they are.
Just doesn't make sense.

And it certainly isn't fair to hold Lebron or Wade or this Heat team to a standard that no team in NBA history was held to.

Unless you want to say that you are not impressed much with Bird's titles or Magic's titles or Russell's titles or Kobe's titles then I don't think its a fair stance at all.


One has to wonder wether those people predicted that due to how much they hate Miami and wanted them to lose or if truely expected them to lose

[DMAVS41]

One has to wonder wether those people predicted that due to how much they hate Miami and wanted them to lose or if truely expected them to lose

If they really hated the Heat they would pick them to win and then claim its unfair how good they are as the reason why.

The truth is that this Heat team has flaws and is not nearly as good as people are making them out to be. People are now just in panic mode because the idea that Lebron could win a ring is very real now.

They aren't the most stacked team ever. They aren't a perfect fit for each other. The coach is inexperienced.....etc.

They are beatable. A flawed Bulls team with their star playing horribly was in every single game with 3 minutes to go. Something has to give. Its a total logic fail to pretend like this Heat team is some juggernaut that is unfair.

If Rose plays just poor and not horrendous that series goes 7.

People forget how fragile sports are. The Mavs are similar. We got lucky to beat the Thunder in three of those wins. Lucky. Yea, Dirk did some great things, but it wouldn't have mattered if the Thunder didn't collapse.

So I say we tap the breaks a little before we start using the "unfair" card......

[RedBlackAttack]

I had serious questions about how far the Heat could go in these playoffs, but it had NOTHING to do with how insanely talented the team is. That was obvious the day of 'The Decision.'

Hell, when just Bosh joined Wade in Miami, they were destined to be an absolute elite team. Throw the best player in the NBA into that equation and it isn't up for debate.

[niko]

Why do people keep saying this? There is absolutely nothing wrong with a team having multiple stars? It doesn't say anything about the team, it says things about Lebron, that a talent like his, best in the league, decided teaming up and being a partner was preferable to carving his own legacy, something every single player like him prior tried. Not that the heat are unfairly good.

Is that so ****ing hard? Do we have to have a thread every day comparing teams that didn't join in the same way and comparing it?

[niko]

One has to wonder wether those people predicted that due to how much they hate Miami and wanted them to lose or if truely expected them to lose
There were points in the season Miami was not playing well. Lebron and Wade dicksuckers at that point were picking Miami just because they loved them, not because they truly believed in how they were playing. it cuts both ways.

[niko]

I actually think it was Maverick Carter, LeBron's mentor and agent that pushed him to do it and really pulled the strings on this. He was probably feeling the heat (pun intended) of two years in a row getting bounced prematurely, when we all knew he should've been playing in the Finals.

Maverick studied from the best sports managers in the world @ Nike. And I remember seeing an interview where Carter said the most important thing for an athletes legacy is championships. And while that is true, context plays a HUGE role. The heroism he was capable of being successful in his home town pro team, displaying the athleticism, statistics and performances he put on a regular basis ... would've been FAR, FAR greater than anything he can achieve with the Heat and teaming up with a player of equal abilities and an ELITE power forward in another state, mid way through his career.

You can tell LeBron is easily influenced. He didn't have a true father figure growing up, so he overly latches onto friends, or bad father figures, in this case ... Maverick Carter. I think this year's stress has truly played a toll on him. I'm sure on many levels he regrets his decision, even though he will never conceed that, especially not if they do win a ring soon. But I mean the stress is manifesting itself physically. People may think it's trivial or weird, but just look at his hair line. It's always been bad, but look how thick his hair was just last year, and how bad its thinning out this year and receeding. THAT is an actual medical physical manifestation of stress.

I've seen it happen to loved ones during stressful times in their life.

It's truly ashame because if he continued to play in Cleveland, continued to be beloved, where he truly looked HAPPY when he played. Dancing on the court, etc. And was able to continue the statistical DOMINANCE that allowed him to be in legit discussion with MJ, and then he won rings in Cleveland? He would have had a legit case for GOAT discussion.

Instead he took the easy way out, possibly pressure externally, and not sacrificed LEGIT GOAT discussion, to settle for quick championships and in the process settling for all-time 6 - 10 range. Now, if he does win like 7 or 8 rings, he could get back into that top five all time discussion. But if he would've kept up his individual dominance and pace in Cleveland all he would've needed was 2 - 3 rings, and I would've put him in the top five all-time EASILY and he would've been neck and neck with Jordan (to me)

It's ashame he cheated himself, and all of us fans of the history of the game from truly witnessing something remarkable.

:(
this is exactly how i feel. 100%. written much better than i could.

[Bigsmoke]

I could understand the hate and everything.

Magic didn't join Larry Bird.

But their decision and they learn to operate well as a team to reach the Finals. That's good for them.

you're right... because he had the best center to ever played the game.

[Bigsmoke]

personally, I think the Heat are loaded with All Stars but not this super stacked team people keep saying they are. I read like 50 threads about the Heat not winning a championship and not beating Boston and now they are winning, "OMG, THERE ARE SO STACKED"

whatever. I just want to see Lebron get a ring.:pimp:

[STATUTORY]

I actually think it was Maverick Carter, LeBron's mentor and agent that pushed him to do it and really pulled the strings on this. He was probably feeling the heat (pun intended) of two years in a row getting bounced prematurely, when we all knew he should've been playing in the Finals.

Maverick studied from the best sports managers in the world @ Nike. And I remember seeing an interview where Carter said the most important thing for an athletes legacy is championships. And while that is true, context plays a HUGE role. The heroism he was capable of being successful in his home town pro team, displaying the athleticism, statistics and performances he put on a regular basis ... would've been FAR, FAR greater than anything he can achieve with the Heat and teaming up with a player of equal abilities and an ELITE power forward in another state, mid way through his career.

You can tell LeBron is easily influenced. He didn't have a true father figure growing up, so he overly latches onto friends, or bad father figures, in this case ... Maverick Carter. I think this year's stress has truly played a toll on him. I'm sure on many levels he regrets his decision, even though he will never conceed that, especially not if they do win a ring soon. But I mean the stress is manifesting itself physically. People may think it's trivial or weird, but just look at his hair line. It's always been bad, but look how thick his hair was just last year, and how bad its thinning out this year and receeding. THAT is an actual medical physical manifestation of stress.

I've seen it happen to loved ones during stressful times in their life.

It's truly ashame because if he continued to play in Cleveland, continued to be beloved, where he truly looked HAPPY when he played. Dancing on the court, etc. And was able to continue the statistical DOMINANCE that allowed him to be in legit discussion with MJ, and then he won rings in Cleveland? He would have had a legit case for GOAT discussion.

Instead he took the easy way out, possibly pressure externally, and not sacrificed LEGIT GOAT discussion, to settle for quick championships and in the process settling for all-time 6 - 10 range. Now, if he does win like 7 or 8 rings, he could get back into that top five all time discussion. But if he would've kept up his individual dominance and pace in Cleveland all he would've needed was 2 - 3 rings, and I would've put him in the top five all-time EASILY and he would've been neck and neck with Jordan (to me)

It's ashame he cheated himself, and all of us fans of the history of the game from truly witnessing something remarkable.

:(

Lebron didn't cheat himself because it was already clear that he couldnt' win in cleveland. No one can, probably. Other stars were not going to come to him in Cleveland. Lebron had to deal with this geographical sin like MJ, KAJ, MAgic, Larry, Kobe didn't have to.

Lebron was not going to win 2 or 3 rings in cleveland period. He did what was the best for himself to be on a great team in the prime of his career.

Certainly it would been historically special Had Lebron won by himself in cleveland but that just was not going to happen and we shouldn't hate on Lebron based on that fantasy of what could have been.

Completely agree wit you about lack of father figure and its effect on Lebron.

but i think you went too far when y ou blamed that hairline on Carter :oldlol:

[JustinJDW]

"Stacked" as in team depth? No, not necessarily.

But that team has literally two of the best four or five best players on the planet. That's never happened before...

[STATUTORY]

"Stacked" as in team depth? No, not necessarily.

But that team has literally two of the best four or five best players on the planet. That's never happened before...

KAJ and Magic

MJ and Pippen

Kobe and Shaq

Russell and Cousy

[FourthTenor]

So Bird-McHale-Parrish were originally called "The Big 3" because McHale and Parrish were scrubs, right?

[FourthTenor]

Oh yeah, and Bruce Bowen was only like, the best perimeter defender in the league. But he didnt score 30 points on 30 shots each night so he doesnt get labeled as a "first or second option" therefore hes inconsequential.

The Heat have two "first options!" omgz! Best team everrrr!

[Bigsmoke]

"Stacked" as in team depth? No, not necessarily.

But that team has literally two of the best four or five best players on the planet. That's never happened before...


the Lakers had the best PG and Center to ever played the game on the same team. :confusedshrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1982.html

o yea.. what about

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/maxakaacee/a_kobe_shaq_vt.jpg

[ShaqAttack3234]

The Heat would be only the 2nd championship team in the post-Jordan era that I'd even call stacked if they end up winning along with the 2008 Celtics.

You could make a case that the 2005 and 2007 Spurs were with their big 3, probably the best defensive stopper on the perimeter in Bowen, good shooters and good depth.

Wouldn't call the 2009 and 2010 Lakers stacked, maybe if Bynum had been healthy, but he wasn't and that has to be factored in.

[JustinJDW]

KAJ and Magic

MJ and Pippen

Kobe and Shaq

Russell and CousyWow, Pippen is starting to become a lot like Reggie Miller. Great player, but viewed a lot more positively after retirement.

Magic Johnson wasn't a Top 5 player in the world when he first came into the league as a rookie, and when he did, Kareem was stepping down.

22-year old 2nd option Kobe in the early 00's wasn't better than Shaq, prime Timmy, prime KG, prime AI and even prime T-Mac. Lets not be stupid.

Cousy and Russell maybe.

I can see many people overrate the talent level of players in the younger parts of their career, due to the success it happens later down the line. But never in NBA history, has two players come together as the consensus #1 and #2 best players in the freaking league and probably world. Never. If anything those two players are always viewed as rivals, never teammates.

[Bigsmoke]

The Heat would be only the 2nd championship team in the post-Jordan era that I'd even call stacked if they end up winning along with the 2008 Celtics.

You could make a case that the 2005 and 2007 Spurs were with their big 3, probably the best defensive stopper on the perimeter in Bowen, good shooters and good depth.

Wouldn't call the 2009 and 2010 Lakers stacked, maybe if Bynum had been healthy, but he wasn't and that has to be factored in.

the 2nd best players at the times, 2nd best PF, 14/10 guys off the bench, and Ariza.

stacked enough

[stephanieg]

Heat did it through free agent collusion instead of being lucky with drafting and fleecing the other team for picks or tanking for guys like Duncan or Hakeem a la the historical norm. Although there are certainly historical similiarities, like Wilt, Moses, Kareem (although LA sucked at that point), Drexler to Houston, Barkley to Houston, Shaq to LA + Kobe refusing to play for Charlotte.

[Indian guy]

I had serious questions about how far the Heat could go in these playoffs, but it had NOTHING to do with how insanely talented the team is.

Huh? Then what exactly were your questions based on even as recently as this Bulls series then, where you picked against Miami? If you didn't think talent was the issue, then what was the issue?

Your sudden backpedaling makes little sense and it's obvious why, you simply will do anything to give as little credit to LeBron as possible IF he wins the championship. Even though you're sooo over him :rolleyes:

Nobody's buying your act. You can't go from doubting a team all season, picking against them at every turn to suddenly Well DUH! Look at how talented they are, of course they are winning! Who wouldn't with that talent?

[Samurai Swoosh]

The Heat would be only the 2nd championship team in the post-Jordan era that I'd even call stacked if they end up winning along with the 2008 Celtics.

You could make a case that the 2005 and 2007 Spurs were with their big 3, probably the best defensive stopper on the perimeter in Bowen, good shooters and good depth.

Wouldn't call the 2009 and 2010 Lakers stacked, maybe if Bynum had been healthy, but he wasn't and that has to be factored in.
Please listen to this man right here ... he speaketh the truth.

By the way do you consider the early or late 90's Bulls to be a "stacked team"?

While I consider the early 90's Bulls to be better than the late 90's Bulls, I feel in terms of overall talent of roster the late 90's Bulls were more stacked.

2011 Heat
2008, 2010 Celtics
2005, 2007 Spurs

and even though they had no "superstars" the depth and quality on average of all the players of the 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 Pistons was up there as well.

Are actually in honesty three of the most stacked teams of all-time that I have seen ...

They are more stacked than champions such as

2010 Lakers
2009 Lakers
2006 Heat
2003 Spurs
2000, 2001, 2002 Lakers

[ShaqAttack3234]

Please listen to this man right here ... he speaketh the truth.

By the way do you consider the early or late 90's Bulls to be a "stacked team"?

While I consider the early 90's Bulls to be better than the late 90's Bulls, I feel in terms of overall talent of roster the late 90's Bulls were more stacked.

2011 Heat
2008, 2010 Celtics
2005, 2007 Spurs

and even though they had no "superstars" the depth and quality on average of all the players of the 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 Pistons was up there as well.

Are actually in honesty three of the most stacked teams of all-time that I have seen ...

They are more stacked than champions such as

2010 Lakers
2009 Lakers
2006 Heat
2003 Spurs
2000, 2001, 2002 Lakers

Forgot about the 2004 Pistons, yeah, they were stacked and while they didn't have one elite player, they had 3-4 all-stars, got big contributions from several guys nightly and were dominant defensively.

Early 90's Bulls? Hard to say, I've considered the '92 Bulls the best Bulls team. The late 90's teams were deeper, but Jordan was noticeably better in the early 90's and in particular, I think '92 was the closest MJ, Pippen and Grant were to the top of their games at the same time. They had good some good shooters like Armstrong, Hodges and Paxson, though it could go either way. The '91 team wasn't stacked, '92 and '93 is debatable.

Grant is pretty underrated, imo, not a guy you want as a first or 2nd option because he wasn't the type of guy who could create his shot well and you could go to, but he had very good chemistry with Jordan and Pippen, would finish easy baskets, hit open mid-range shots and rebound/play defense.

Those teams relied kind of heavily on 2 guys for me to feel comfortable calling them stacked, but I agree that the late 90's Bulls were more stacked due to them having Rodman to fill in the need for defense/rebounding that Grant's departure had left, Kukoc who could be that 3rd scorer and bench scorer and Harper who provided more backcourt defense and versatility.

Even so, the '96-'98 Bulls aren't really the definition of a stacked team to me either. Again, they relied so much on their top 2 players, Rodman was MIA during '97 and in terms of 3rd scoring options, the Bulls never really had a great one.

[The Decision]

the 2nd best players at the times, 2nd best PF, 14/10 guys off the bench, and Ariza.

stacked enough

Are you an idiot?

one of the things about the 09 and 10 lakers is that they lacked a good bench.
Even Odom had his whores in the playoffs.

The had no shooters, in-fact I don't remember any lakers team that did.

They only had one star (Kobe) and one All-Star (Gasol)

Bynum is not a factor, he was injured, people fail to realize this, he hardly played in the playoffs, sometimes he didn't play at all!

So how is that being stacked?

Whilst Miami have two superstars who are considered to be the best/second best in the League by their fans. A All-star(24/11) in bosh, a defensive minded center and PG, plus Haslem coming off the bench.

They are one of the most stacked teams in history!

For the Lakers to match them, they would need two Kobes plus Gasol and a-couple of shooters. Now that's being stacked.

[The Decision]

I think posts like this are funny coming from a person that is trying to downplay a potential title in a way that you would not do to other players in NBA history.

I don't really care all that much though. I just find it interesting.

If my Mavs win, I'm going to bump all of these:

"Heat are the most stacked team ever" posts and threads. Will be funny to see the same people backpedal and act like the Mavs should have won and try to find a way to not give Dirk enough credit.

Not a bad situation here right now. If the Mavs and Dirk lose...they are simply losing to the most stacked team the league has ever seen. And if they win, well......that should vault good old Dirky up to legit top 15 talk. Love it.

More like People would portray Lebron as a life-time choker he was and is.

[IGOTGAME]

The same people crying about Miami's talent right now were also the first ones calling them overrated all season, first to call them the Big 2 1/2, first to pick Boston in the 2nd round of the playoffs and first to pick Chicago in the conference finals.

Haters just need to STFU.

really...I have been calling it the same way all season.

Have fun rooting for Lebron player fan. You would rather Lebron win than your own team...

[The Decision]

really...I have been calling it the same way all season.

Have fun rooting for Lebron player fan. You would rather Lebron win than your own team...

Its sad. :(

[ace_gold_26]

Lebron didn't cheat himself because it was already clear that he couldnt' win in cleveland. No one can, probably. Other stars were not going to come to him in Cleveland. Lebron had to deal with this geographical sin like MJ, KAJ, MAgic, Larry, Kobe didn't have to.

Lebron was not going to win 2 or 3 rings in cleveland period. He did what was the best for himself to be on a great team in the prime of his career.

Certainly it would been historically special Had Lebron won by himself in cleveland but that just was not going to happen and we shouldn't hate on Lebron based on that fantasy of what could have been.

Completely agree wit you about lack of father figure and its effect on Lebron.

but i think you went too far when y ou blamed that hairline on Carter :oldlol:

Exactly I just dont understand how people think lebron could have won in cleveland if he stayed. They never gave him help. They tried but nobody good wants to come too cleveland. Who did they get a washed up shaq and jamison. The funny thing is if he would have gone to chicago we wouldnt have this discussion and that team would have been alot better than miami.

[KOLBCTEW]

Are you an idiot?

one of the things about the 09 and 10 lakers is that they lacked a good bench.
Even Odom had his whores in the playoffs.

The had no shooters, in-fact I don't remember any lakers team that did.

They only had one star (Kobe) and one All-Star (Gasol)

Bynum is not a factor, he was injured, people fail to realize this, he hardly played in the playoffs, sometimes he didn't play at all!

So how is that being stacked?

Whilst Miami have two superstars who are considered to be the best/second best in the League by their fans. A All-star(24/11) in bosh, a defensive minded center and PG, plus Haslem coming off the bench.

They are one of the most stacked teams in history!

For the Lakers to match them, they would need two Kobes plus Gasol and a-couple of shooters. Now that's being stacked.Interesting you point out Bynums injuries yet leave out the Heats. Haslem was injured, has yet to fully recover and has hardly played in the playofs and sometimes didn't play at all. Joel Anthony while he's good on defense is not good to the point that it makes up for or even negates his horrendous offense. :oldlol: at Bibby being a defensive minded PG.
Everybody knows Bibby stinks defensely and he was brought here to help out offensively and he's barely made a dent. And Our shooters either need double thumb surgery or have a foot injury.

[LA_Showtime]

Interesting you point out Bynums injuries yet leave out the Heats. Haslem was injured, has yet to fully recover and has hardly played in the playofs and sometimes didn't play at all. Joel Anthony while he's good on defense is not good to the point that it makes up for or even negates his horrendous offense. :oldlol: at Bibby being a defensive minded PG.
Everybody knows Bibby stinks defensely and he was brought here to help out offensively and he's barely made a dent. And Our shooters either need double thumb surgery or have a foot injury.

Uh, maybe because James, Wade, and Bosh have stayed healthy, and they're the most important pieces to the puzzle? Kids... honestly.

[RedBlackAttack]

Huh? Then what exactly were your questions based on even as recently as this Bulls series then, where you picked against Miami? If you didn't think talent was the issue, then what was the issue?

Your sudden backpedaling makes little sense and it's obvious why, you simply will do anything to give as little credit to LeBron as possible IF he wins the championship. Even though you're sooo over him :rolleyes:

Nobody's buying your act. You can't go from doubting a team all season, picking against them at every turn to suddenly Well DUH! Look at how talented they are, of course they are winning! Who wouldn't with that talent?
There is no backpedaling whatsoever. In all discussions during the regular season about possible problems co-existing offensively, I always tempered my remarks with the notion that they may be able to overwhelm teams simply with talent. And, I never 'picked' the Bulls. I don't do predictions on here. I thought that the Bulls had a great shot to beat them in the series after Game 1, but that proved to be completely off-base and I don't hesitate in admitting as much.

I never formally picked Chicago... Ever.

Were any of my trepidations about the makeup of the team ever concerning the actual pieces that they had? No, it was questions about how they would work together and whether or not opponents could exploit those problems.

Talent was never the issue. I mean, they have arguably the two best players in the league on the same f#cking team. There is no denying that, when you have that, the talent is there for a championship(s). You would have to be stupid to argue otherwise.

Throw in an elite PF (which Bosh has proven to be in these playoffs) and the Heat are certainly stacked in terms of talent. They still do have some problems in their halfcourt sets and they still tend to rely a bit too much on isolations and 'taking turns,' but they are able to overwhelm teams with talent, especially defensively, but also on offense.

What do you want us to say? That James is the greatest player of all-time because he joined a team with Wade and Bosh, all in their primes, and are on the verge of a championship with all three guys having HUGE moments in these playoffs?

This team had only one acceptable outcome when they announced their union in July... A championship in 2011. They aren't there yet, but they are close. If they get it, they will have achieved the first part of their plan. They have, far and away, the best trio of players that I can remember...

Do you want to argue otherwise? I still don't think that they work particularly well together, but when there is that much talent out there, it is tough for opponents to deal with.

I have not changed my stance one iota.

[KOLBCTEW]

Uh, maybe because James, Wade, and Bosh have stayed healthy, and they're the most important pieces to the puzzle? Kids... honestly.
I'm referring only to the role players.. What are you talking about???

[fefe]

I actually think that the Heat are overachieving.

I really beleived they are 1-2 pieces away this season, and their dynasty will start next year, when they have added a really serviceable, defensive minded athletic C, who can rebound, block some shots and finish well inside.

I really beleived that their gaping hole at the C position will avoid them from getting this far this season.

If they can add Chandler, Nene or Dalembert next season, than I think they will be real favourites.

This year, I think they are overachieving.

[DMAVS41]

The Heat would be only the 2nd championship team in the post-Jordan era that I'd even call stacked if they end up winning along with the 2008 Celtics.

You could make a case that the 2005 and 2007 Spurs were with their big 3, probably the best defensive stopper on the perimeter in Bowen, good shooters and good depth.

Wouldn't call the 2009 and 2010 Lakers stacked, maybe if Bynum had been healthy, but he wasn't and that has to be factored in.

This is not how you should look at it though. The Lakers were absolutely "stacked" compared to the rest of the league this year and the last two years.

Take 09. What superstar player even had close to the kind of help Kobe did?

Howard I guess? But Howard certainly wasn't in Kobe's class as a player.

Lebron? Had much less help.
Dirk? Had much less help.
Wade? Had much less help.

That is stacked my friend. If you are the only superstar player to have a great team around you, then your team is stacked.

[tpols]

This is not how you should look at it though. The Lakers were absolutely "stacked" compared to the rest of the league this year and the last two years.

Take 09. What superstar player even had close to the kind of help Kobe did?

Howard I guess? But Howard certainly wasn't in Kobe's class as a player.

Lebron? Had much less help.
Dirk? Had much less help.
Wade? Had much less help.

That is stacked my friend. If you are the only superstar player to have a great team around you, then your team is stacked.
There's a difference between being slightly more stacked than the competition and being massively more stacked against the competition.

The lakers at least had to compete with a full, prime boston squad. The fact LA even won last year was a near miracle.. down 13 in the second half against a great , great defensive team? They were very lucky. The heat on the other hand got to face an older, deflated boston squad that lost their interior edge and they are now facing a team in the finals that they most certainly should destroy. Most teams dont get to the finals and have that luxury. The lakers certainly didn't.

In fact, the heat's route to the finals this year was much, much easier than either of LA's runs the past two years. LA was pushed to 6 games twice in 10 and barely advanced in 09 when houston took them to 7. The runs were a lot tougher. Where as the heat have never lost more than a game to their opponents. It's been pretty much a cake walk for them so far. AND they have a massive edge in the finals now..

[DMAVS41]

There is no backpedaling whatsoever. In all discussions during the regular season about possible problems co-existing offensively, I always tempered my remarks with the notion that they may be able to overwhelm teams simply with talent. And, I never 'picked' the Bulls. I don't do predictions on here. I thought that the Bulls had a great shot to beat them in the series after Game 1, but that proved to be completely off-base and I don't hesitate in admitting as much.

I never formally picked Chicago... Ever.

Were any of my trepidations about the makeup of the team ever concerning the actual pieces that they had? No, it was questions about how they would work together and whether or not opponents could exploit those problems.

Talent was never the issue. I mean, they have arguably the two best players in the league on the same f#cking team. There is no denying that, when you have that, the talent is there for a championship(s). You would have to be stupid to argue otherwise.

Throw in an elite PF (which Bosh has proven to be in these playoffs) and the Heat are certainly stacked in terms of talent. They still do have some problems in their halfcourt sets and they still tend to rely a bit too much on isolations and 'taking turns,' but they are able to overwhelm teams with talent, especially defensively, but also on offense.

What do you want us to say? That James is the greatest player of all-time because he joined a team with Wade and Bosh, all in their primes, and are on the verge of a championship with all three guys having HUGE moments in these playoffs?

This team had only one acceptable outcome when they announced their union in July... A championship in 2011. They aren't there yet, but they are close. If they get it, they will have achieved the first part of their plan. They have, far and away, the best trio of players that I can remember...

Do you want to argue otherwise? I still don't think that they work particularly well together, but when there is that much talent out there, it is tough for opponents to deal with.

I have not changed my stance one iota.

For sure.

But its been a battle. You had reservations because its not a great fit. No team has ever had 3 ball dominant players before on the same team and had a ton of success. Its a credit to those three guys that they have made it work.

Its a credit to Lebron doing his best Magic/Bird/MJ hybrid impersonations every night. The guy is playing some of the best all around basketball I've ever seen in 35 plus years I've watched the NBA.

Play great defense? Check.
Take over late? Check.
Facilitate others? Check.
Carry the scoring load in droughts? Check.

That stuff matters a lot more to me than trying to put an asterisk by a title that these guys haven't even won yet.

So I'll ask this simple question.

If the Mavs do win the title. Do you feel like its the most impressive title by a superstar player ever for Dirk? If the Heat really are so good as you say, wouldn't a team of "over the hill" role players and Dirk get blown off the court? Especially without home court.

I just don't think anyone here is being consistent. And if the Mavs do win, you'll see everyone do a 180 again.

[DMAVS41]

There's a difference between being slightly more stacked than the competition and being massively more stacked against the competition.

The lakers at least had to compete with a full, prime boston squad. The fact LA even won last year was a near miracle.. down 13 in the second half against a great , great defensive team? They were very lucky. The heat on the other hand got to face an older, deflated boston squad that lost their interior edge and they are now facing a team in the finals that they most certainly should destroy. Most teams dont get to the finals and have that luxury. The lakers certainly didn't.

In fact, the heat's route to the finals this year was much, much easier than either of LA's runs the past two years. LA was pushed to 6 games twice in 10 and barely advanced in 09 when houston took them to 7. The runs were a lot tougher. Where as the heat have never lost more than a game to their opponents. It's been pretty much a cake walk for them so far. AND they have a massive edge in the finals now..

LA in 09 was massively more stacked than the competition. Same with last year.

No superstar had even close to the kind of help Kobe did. And the Lakers still beat a very good Boston team with Kobe playing a crap series and a crap game 7. Stacked.

You think the Heat beat the Celtics this year with Lebron or Wade playing as awful as Kobe did last year against them? Hell no. And the Celtics were better last year. LOL

That is what is so funny. This Heat team could have lost nearly every game against the Celtics if it wasn't for both Lebron and Wade playing great basketball. Thats the difference.

I highly doubt the Heat beat the Celtics if Wade played like Kobe did in the finals last year.

Playing poorly does not make a run harder. Kobe was horrid against the Thunder last year. That is why it went 6 games. Had nothing to do with how stacked the team was.....LOL

[tpols]

LA in 09 was massively more stacked than the competition. Same with last year.

No superstar had even close to the kind of help Kobe did. And the Lakers still beat a very good Boston team with Kobe playing a crap series and a crap game 7. Stacked.

You think the Heat beat the Celtics this year with Lebron or Wade playing as awful as Kobe did last year against them? Hell no. And the Celtics were better last year. LOL

That is what is so funny. This Heat team could have lost nearly every game against the Celtics if it wasn't for both Lebron and Wade playing great basketball. Thats the difference.

I highly doubt the Heat beat the Celtics if Wade played like Kobe did in the finals last year.

Playing poorly does not make a run harder. Kobe was horrid against the Thunder last year. That is why it went 6 games. Had nothing to do with how stacked the team was.....LOL
We just witnessed the heat dismantle the bulls in 5 games reeling off four in a row with wade averaging 18ppg on 40% shooting. :oldlol:

That's the second best player in the world, on your team, playing like shit, and his team winning four in a row against the best defensive team in the league and the team that held the best overall record.

If that's not stacked than I don't know what is.. the thing is, bosh on any given night can give you 30 and 10. So even if wade or lebron play a terrible game, they still have a great chance at winning because they still have bosh to step up. And vice versa, if bosh plays bad, wade and lebron can carry the slack.

And LOL at you making it seem like boston came close to beating miami. Miami completely dismantled them from top to bottom in that series. What a joke.:oldlol:

Kobe has never had that kind of help in the past few years. Wade is literally twice as good as Pau Gasol has ever been.. shit bosh's offensive and defensive capabilities are just as good as Gasol's.. the only difference being Gasol is slightly better at rebounding. It's not even close. The heat have had an easier road to the finals and final opponent than the lakers have had in the past few years. It's no wonder most people here disagree with you. Wrong as usual.lol

[DMAVS41]

We just witnessed the heat dismantle the bulls in 5 games reeling off four in a row with wade averaging 18ppg on 40% shooting. :oldlol:

That's the second best player in the world, on your team, playing like shit, and his team winning four in a row against the best defensive team in the league and the team that held the best overall record.

If that's not stacked than I don't know what is.. the thing is, bosh on any given night can give you 30 and 10. So even if wade or lebron play a terrible game, they still have a great chance at winning because they still have bosh to step up. And vice versa, if bosh plays bad, wade and lebron can carry the slack.

And LOL at you making it seem like boston came close to beating miami. Miami completely dismantled them from top to bottom in that series. What a joke.:oldlol:

Kobe has never had that kind of help in the past few years. Wade is literally twice as good as Pau Gasol has ever been.. shit bosh's offensive and defensive capabilities are just as good as Gasol's.. the only difference being Gasol is slightly better at rebounding. It's not even close. The heat have had an easier road to the finals and final opponent than the lakers have had in the past few years. It's no wonder most people here disagree with you. Wrong as usual.lol

Gasol put up 20/11/4 last year in the playoffs and perfectly complemented Kobe's style of play.

LOL....and repeatedly bailed out Kobe. Thunder series? Boston series?

Sports are fragile tpols. If Wade or Lebron don't play great against Boston this year its a totally different series. Just the truth. Who is talking about the Bulls?

I'm talking about a Boston team that both the Heat and Lakers faced. Last years Boston team was better and the Lakers beat them with Kobe playing like shit.

This years Boston team was worse and Lebron and Wade beat them both playing fantastic basketball.

LOL.

Damn the revisionist history is running wild here. Kobe stans and Lebron haters in full on panic mode.

[niko]

Oh yeah, and Bruce Bowen was only like, the best perimeter defender in the league. But he didnt score 30 points on 30 shots each night so he doesnt get labeled as a "first or second option" therefore hes inconsequential.

The Heat have two "first options!" omgz! Best team everrrr!
Bruce Bowen is not Dwayne Wade. He's a nice complimentary player. That's why Duncan (from me) will always get mad respect, he had a good cast, but all compliments. Robinson was older and more defensive oriented at the time. Gino, as great as he is, was never a 35-40 minute per game guy and would regularly (look over the years) dissapear in road games. But they won FOUR titles with Duncan anchoring.

Lebron couldn't have gotten that type of cast at some point? He needed arguably the second best player in the league or he wasn't going to be able to win? Really?

[tpols]

I'm talking about a Boston team that both the Heat and Lakers faced. Last years Boston team was better and the Lakers beat them with Kobe playing like shit.

This years Boston team was worse and Lebron and Wade beat them both playing fantastic basketball.

And the heat beat them easily in 5 while the lakers were pushed to the brink of elimination in 7. :oldlol:

And it's hilarious how you place all of the blame on kobe. Gasol dissapeared for a bunch of the road games and wasn't carrying near the load nor facing the same amount of defensive attention. And he still shot well below his usual standards.

And besides Gasol, who did the lakers have to rely on? Fisher? Artest? Their terrible bench? I mean even odom was a non factor. What makes this comparison even more hilarious iis the fact that Bynum wasn't even close to the factor he had been for LA this year. If he played like he did this year, last year, maybe I'd say the teams were close. But the facts are that he didn't. It was kobe+Gasol and role players.

The heat have role players that are just as good as the role players the laker's had plus they have a much better second and third option. That's what it ultimately comes down to.

DMAVs..:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Bruce Bowen is not Dwayne Wade. He's a nice complimentary player. That's why Duncan (from me) will always get mad respect, he had a good cast, but all compliments. Robinson was older and more defensive oriented at the time. Gino, as great as he is, was never a 35-40 minute per game guy and would regularly (look over the years) dissapear in road games. But they won FOUR titles with Duncan anchoring.

Lebron couldn't have gotten that type of cast at some point? He needed arguably the second best player in the league or he wasn't going to be able to win? Really?

Duncan's 4 titles remain seriously under-rated by Lakers and Shaq fans and the majority of the basketball world.

There are only a few guys in the history of the game that could have won a title in 03 with that Spurs team.

Duncan winning 4 rings is far more impressive than Bird winning 3 or Kobe winning 5.

Just like Duncan's rings will always blow Lebron's out of the water. Doesn't mean Duncan is better (even though I do feel that way)....just means Duncan's rings are more impressive.

I just hate this revisionist history crap going on now. I think people should educate themselves on the kind of teams that have won titles throughout NBA history.

Everyone has different definitions of stacked, but the simple fact remains that if you are a superstar player and have the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the game....you should be winning titles and at the very least challenging for titles.

Kobe absolutely had a stacked team around him since 08. He did a great job taking advantage of that up until this year.

Lebron absolutely has a stacked team around him right now. And so far he's done a great job of taking advantage of that.

Same with Bird and Magic and Kareem and Russell.....and Shaq/MJ to a lesser extent.

Basically all of the ten best players of all time played on stacked teams other than Wilt/Duncan/Hakeem. And that is why Wilt and Hakeem only have 2 titles, but we rank them so highly because we know they didn't have the luxury of great teams every year like a lot of the other guys did.

[DMAVS41]

And the heat beat them easily in 5 while the lakers were pushed to the brink of elimination in 7. :oldlol:

And it's hilarious how you place all of the blame on kobe. Gasol dissapeared for a bunch of the road games and wasn't carrying near the load nor facing the same amount of defensive attention. And he still shot well below his usual standards.

And besides Gasol, who did the lakers have to rely on? Fisher? Artest? Their terrible bench? I mean even odom was a non factor. What makes this comparison even more hilarious iis the fact that Bynum wasn't even close to the factor he had been for LA this year. If he played like he did this year, last year, maybe I'd say the teams were close. But the facts are that he didn't. It was kobe+Gasol and role players.

The heat have role players that are just as good as the role players the laker's had plus they have a much better second and third option. That's what it ultimately comes down to.

DMAVs..:oldlol:

Sports are fragile. The Lakers would have beat the Celtics in 5 or 6 last year if Kobe had played as well as Lebron or Wade did this year against them.

LOL at tpols trying to compare the two.

Answer these questions please.

Which celtics team was better in the playoffs? 10 or 11?
Did Lebron or Kobe play better against the celtics in the playoffs?
Did Wade or Kobe play better against the celtics in the playoffs?

LOL

Mike Miller and Haslem were non factors against Boston. Non factors. Bibby did nothing. James Jones did nothing outside of game 1. Chalmers was awful outside of game 3. Where are these great role players in the Boston series?

Please answer. Don't run and hide.

Where were these great role players in the Boston series?

[tpols]

Which celtics team was better in the playoffs? 10 or 11?
Did Lebron or Kobe play better against the celtics in the playoffs?
Did Wade or Kobe play better against the celtics in the playoffs?

Don't you see what you're doing?

Follow the train of logic my friend:

If boston was BETTER last year, which they were considerably defensively because of their interior defense, that would lead to them being harder to play against. They also lost their best perimeter defender in tony allen.

I dont know how else to put it. It's much easier to play well against a team that is worse and specifically worse defensively. Thats the difference between kobe and lebron's performances. Also lebron and wade each had each other to take the pressure off of each other. They had a balanced perimeter attack. Shit, bosh even outplayed garnett for the majority of the series. What more could you want? The heat completely dismantled them simply because they overall were better than them.

[DMAVS41]

Don't you see what you're doing?

Follow the train of logic my friend:

If boston was BETTER last year, which they were considerably defensively because of their interior defense, that would lead to them being harder to play against. They also lost their best perimeter defender in tony allen.

I dont know how else to put it. It's much easier to play well against a team that is worse and specifically worse defensively. Thats the difference between kobe and lebron's performances. Also lebron and wade each had each other to take the pressure off of each other. They had a balanced perimeter attack. Shit, bosh even outplayed garnett for the majority of the series. What more could you want? The heat completely dismantled them simply because they overall were better than them.

And if they were better last year, how did the Lakers beat them with Kobe playing a poor series if they weren't a stacked team??????

Uh oh.......logic fail.

And again. Don't avoid the question.

What role players did anything in the Boston series? Aside from James Jones in game 1, no role player did anything of note really. LOL

[tpols]

And again. Don't avoid the question.
Avoid what question? I just destroyed you on your question to which you had no response to.:oldlol:


What role players did anything in the Boston series? Aside from James Jones in game 1, no role player did anything of note really. LOL
James Jones dropped 25 in one of their most important wins. Thats a role player stepping up in a huge way. Bosh outplayed Garnett for the series. Joel Anthony had his BEST series defensively and was playing great inside all game both with his post and help defense. What more could you possibly want? The heat's role players are as good as any role players on any other championship teams. They have a weak bench but so did the lakers the past three years. The heat though, unlike most teams, have the best second and third options in the ENTIRE league.. that's what separates them from the rest.

[DMAVS41]

Avoid what question? I just destroyed you on your question to which you had no response to.:oldlol:

James Jones dropped 25 in one of their most important wins. Thats a role player stepping up in a huge way. Bosh outplayed Garnett for the series. Joel Anthony had his BEST series defensively and was playing great inside all game both with his post and help defense. What more could you possibly want? The heat's role players are as good as any role players on any other championship teams. They have a weak bench but so did the lakers the past three years. The heat though, unlike most teams, have the best second and third options in the ENTIRE league.. that's what separates them from the rest.

What question?

Who played better? Kobe or Lebron against the celtics? Kobe or wade against the Celtics?

Which celtics team was better? 10 or 11?

See, you can't even admit that the role players did nothing in the entire series. Now we should jump for joy because Joel Anthony played solid defense and averaged like 7 boards a game. Jesus man. Could you over-rate the role players more on the Heat against Boston this year? I don't think its possible. They were horrible. Bibby/Chalmers/Jones/Z....they did nothing. Nothing.

It was Lebron and Wade shitting on the Celtics. Thats what happened.

And if Kobe had played like they did, the Lakers easily win the title last year in 5 or 6 games. Instead, Kobe was much worse on both ends. And Kobe's crunch time play was awful Something like 26% shooting in crunch time for the series and averaged 2 turnovers as well.

And then Kobe "wets the bed" in a game 7 against them and his team still wins.

And you have the audacity to complain about help. Pathetic.

Lebron and Wade actually played well against Boston. Thats why they freaking won in 5. Not because they have a stacked team. Damn.
:facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is not how you should look at it though. The Lakers were absolutely "stacked" compared to the rest of the league this year and the last two years.

Take 09. What superstar player even had close to the kind of help Kobe did?

Howard I guess? But Howard certainly wasn't in Kobe's class as a player.

Lebron? Had much less help.
Dirk? Had much less help.
Wade? Had much less help.

That is stacked my friend. If you are the only superstar player to have a great team around you, then your team is stacked.

First of all, Dwight was a top 4 player that year.

And sorry, but having Gasol(borderline top 10 at best), Odom(not all-star caliber that year) and Ariza(played well in the playoffs, but nowhere near all-star caliber either). That is NOT a stacked team.

Denver was more stacked than LA that year. They had a superstar Melo, an all-nba guard in Billups, a talented, but inconsistent 6th man in Smith, solid big men in Nene, K-Mart and Anderson and a total of 5 double digit scorers in both the regular season and playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

First of all, Dwight was a top 4 player that year.

And sorry, but having Gasol(borderline top 10 at best), Odom(not all-star caliber that year) and Ariza(played well in the playoffs, but nowhere near all-star caliber either). That is NOT a stacked team.

Denver was more stacked than LA that year. They had a superstar Melo, an all-nba guard in Billups, a talented, but inconsistent 6th man in Smith, solid big men in Nene, K-Mart and Anderson and a total of 5 double digit scorers in both the regular season and playoffs.

I don't put Melo even close to Kobe. Nor Howard from 09....although Howard was closer in my opinion.

Wade/Lebron/Dirk are the guys I'd put in Kobe's league in 09. And not one of them had a team nearly as good.

Now, you put Lebron or Wade on those nuggets. Then I totally agree. But not Melo.

The 09 and 10 Lakers were absolutely stacked compared to the rest of the league. No other player in Kobe's class had as much help as he did.

[tpols]

And another thing..

Fisher shoots 42%..

Artest shoots 36%..

Brown shoots 45%..

Farmar shoots 32%..

Vujajic shoots 37%..

This was kobe's perimeter help in the boston series. :oldlol: Absolutely pathetic. The sad part is a lot of the shots these guys got were fairly open ones.. none of these guys were catching doubles.

As far as big men go, Bynum averaged 7 points on 45% shooting.. Odom only threw in an extra 7 as well.

Gasol shot 48%.. that's a whole 6% below his usual efficiency.. Kobe shot 40% which was, just like Gasol 6% below his normal efficiency. And kobe scored on a much higher volume and faced much more defensive attention.

But wait.. Kobe was carried by his Big's defense and rebounding right? Well that would make sense if kobe weren't the second leading rebounder on the lakers besides Pau.:oldlol: Yes kobe outrebounded both odom and bynum in that series. He also played good defense, defending rondo very well and recording the most steals out of any player in the entire series.

[DMAVS41]

And another thing..

Fisher shoots 42%..

Artest shoots 36%..

Brown shoots 45%..

Farmar shoots 32%..

Vujajic shoots 37%..

This was kobe's perimeter help in the boston series. :oldlol: Absolutely pathetic. The sad part is a lot of the shots these guys got were fairly open ones.. none of these guys were catching doubles.

As far as big men go, Bynum averaged 7 points on 45% shooting.. Odom only threw in an extra 7 as well.

Gasol shot 48%.. that's a whole 6% below his usual efficiency.. Kobe shot 40% which was, just like Gasol 6% below his normal efficiency. And kobe scored on a much higher volume and faced much more defensive attention.

But wait.. Kobe was carried by his Big's defense and rebounding right? Well that would make sense if kobe weren't the second leading rebounder on the lakers besides Pau.:oldlol: Yes kobe outrebounded both odom and bynum in that series. He also played rondo very well and recorded the most steals out of any laker.

I won't respond to you until you answer my questions.

Which Celtics team was better....10 or 11?

Did Lebron or Kobe play better against the Celtics?

Did Wade or Kobe play better against the Celtics?

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't put Melo even close to Kobe. Nor Howard from 09....although Howard was closer in my opinion.

Wade/Lebron/Dirk are the guys I'd put in Kobe's league in 09. And not one of them had a team nearly as good.

Now, you put Lebron or Wade on those nuggets. Then I totally agree. But not Melo.

The 09 and 10 Lakers were absolutely stacked compared to the rest of the league. No other player in Kobe's class had as much help as he did.

Dwight was better than Dirk in 2009.

[DMAVS41]

Dwight was better than Dirk in 2009.

I disagree.

[tpols]

I won't respond to you until you answer my questions.

Which Celtics team was better....10 or 11?

Did Lebron or Kobe play better against the Celtics?

Did Wade or Kobe play better against the Celtics?
I already answered this question. Look on the last page. :oldlol:

Don't you see what you're doing?

Follow the train of logic my friend:

If boston was BETTER last year, which they were considerably defensively because of their interior defense, that would lead to them being harder to play against. They also lost their best perimeter defender in tony allen.

I dont know how else to put it. It's much easier to play well against a team that is worse and specifically worse defensively. Thats the difference between kobe and lebron's performances. Also lebron and wade each had each other to take the pressure off of each other. They had a balanced perimeter attack. Shit, bosh even outplayed garnett for the majority of the series. What more could you want? The heat completely dismantled them simply because they overall were better than them.

[DMAVS41]

I already answered this question. Look on the last page. :oldlol:

Answer it again. No explanations. Just answer each question please.

[tpols]

Answer it again. No explanations. Just answer each question please.
What? No explanations? So you're admitting you cant refute my evidence? Because I answered the questions very clearly in my post.. the explanations were evidence for why those answers were true.:hammerhead:

[Sterlingsucks]

Why is everyone trying to crown who they think is the champion before they even play a game? come on...and after game 1 everyone will be sayin well you know what happened to the bulls or if the heat win game one someone is gonna say well they have 3 stars...blah blah blah...let the games be played before you go crowning anyone the champ !

[DMAVS41]

What? No explanations? So you're admitting you cant refute my evidence? Because I answered the questions very clearly in my post.. the explanations were evidence for why those answers were true.:hammerhead:

What?

How did Wade destroy the Celtics last year in the playoffs then? He had no help at all.

You don't have any evidence. You keep acting like team strength prohibited Kobe from playing well. Not true. Wade destroyed the exact same Celtics team with much less help than Kobe did last year.

So sorry, your evidence does not exist.

Answer the questions tpols.

[tpols]

How did Wade destroy the Celtics last year in the playoffs then? He had no help at all.

You don't have any evidence. You keep acting like team strength prohibited Kobe from playing well. Not true. Wade destroyed the exact same Celtics team with much less help than Kobe did last year.

The Finals =/= the first round of the playoffs where the other team destroys you in 5.

Boston came out with a shit load more defensive focus and played overall with much more intensity in the Finals than they did in the first round, which they knew would be a cake walk.

And I answered the questions already.. I clearly stated that Boston was much better defensively last year, because they were younger, had the best perimeter defender in the league in tony allen, and they had extra big bodies to pair with KG in rasheed and perkins so their interior defense was much better. That's a YES to boston being better last year. And I clearly said that lebron played better against boston this year than kobe did last year and thats directly because boston's defense and overall team had declined. You're trying to make me repeat it again and again because you cant refute it.

[DMAVS41]

The Finals =/= the first round of the playoffs where the other team destroys you in 5.

Boston came out with a shit load more defensive focus and played overall with much more intensity in the Finals than they did in the first round, which they knew would be a cake walk.

And I answered the questions already.. I clearly stated that Boston was much better defensively last year, because they were younger, had the best perimeter defender in the league in tony allen, and they had extra big bodies to pair with KG in rasheed and perkins so their interior defense was much better. That's a YES to boston being better. And I clearly said that lebron played better against boston this year than kobe did last year and thats directly because boston's defense and overall team had declined. You're trying to make me repeat it again and again because you cant refute it.

Exactly.

So think about this man.

We agree Lebron and Wade played better. We agree Boston was better last year.

So how did the Lakers win if Kobe didn't play as well as they did....and the Lakers weren't stacked? Its a total logic fail.

I honestly don't think you watched the Heat vs. Boston series this year. The Heat won in 5 because Lebron and Wade played great. Not because of team strength.

Again. Miller and Haslem did nothing. Total non factors. In fact, Miller only hurt them in his limited on court time. Bosh was average. Outside of Jones in game 1, the Heat got nothing from the role players. Nothing.

You can keep trying to make the series into something it wasn't. If Kobe had played as good as Lebron and Wade did this year his team would have beat the Celtics in 5 or 6 last year. And you already admitted that the Celtics were much better last year.

So how were the Lakers not stacked last year?

[tpols]

Exactly.

So think about this man.

We agree Lebron and Wade played better. We agree Boston was better last year.

So how did the Lakers win if Kobe didn't play as well as they did....and the Lakers weren't stacked? Its a total logic fail.

Lebron and Wade only played better this year because Boston wasn't as good defensively this year as they were last year. And they both had each other so they didn't face near the amount of doubles kobe faced in the Finals last year.

I just showed the stats in my post before. Gasol decreased in efficiency just as much as kobe did in that series.. except kobe was carrying the bulk of the scoring load and facing the most defensive attention.

The reason the lakers won was because of their defense and rebounding. Kobe did carry the bulk of the offense, but he was also the second leading rebounder, and the steals leader on the lakers. And kobe played as good man defense on rondo as any other laker played on their man.

So overall, relative to strength of competition and how everyone else on his team played, kobe did play well. He was the best player in the entire series easily.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron and Wade only played better this year because Boston wasn't as good defensively this year as they were last year. And they both had each other so they didn't face near the amount of doubles kobe faced in the Finals last year.

I just showed the stats in my post before. Gasol decreased in efficiency just as much as kobe did in that series.. except kobe was carrying the bulk of the scoring load and facing the most defensive attention.

The reason the lakers won was because of their defense and rebounding. Kobe did carry the bulk of the offense, but he was also the second leading rebounder, and the steals leader on the lakers. And kobe played as good man defense on rondo as any other laker played on their man.

So overall, relative to strength of competition and how everyone else on his team played, kobe did play well.

False. When will you learn.

Wade played even better against the Celtics last year.

And even then, it doesn't matter for this debate. The Lakers beat a better Boston team with Kobe not playing well....or at least not as well as Lebron and Wade. Just a fact.

Therefore they were stacked. Simple logic.

LOL. It was Lebron that sealed the deal in the big and close games. Kobe didn't. He left that up to Fisher and Gasol as usual. If Lebron had shot 25% in crunch time against the Celtics this year the series would have gone 7.

You can't ignore shit like that man. Stop grading them on the same curves. Both Wade and Lebron were simply much better. Just a ****ing fact and both were better defensively easily.

[tpols]

So how were the Lakers not stacked last year?
And to an extent the lakers were stacked last year. Just not as much as this miami team is.

Miami has role players that are just as good as the role players on the lakers and they have much better second and third options. It's not close really.

[tpols]

False. When will you learn.

Wade played even better against the Celtics last year.

And even then, it doesn't matter for this debate. The Lakers beat a better Boston team with Kobe not playing well....or at least not as well as Lebron and Wade. Just a fact.

Therefore they were stacked. Simple logic.
Kobe carried the offensive load for LA, played as good man defense as anyone else on his team on rondo, was the second leading rebounder, and was tthe steals leader for the whole series.

As far as not playing well? He was easily the best player in the series so that doesn't carry much weight. :confusedshrug:

[Calabis]

I think the difference is, is that Magic, Bird and Jordans(first three peat) teams where mainly built through the draft and trades......with that said I can't recall any of MJ's teams having three of the Top 15-18 players in the league, with two of those being Top 3. Its not like Magic, Kareem and Worthy all left teams to join forces, same with Bird, Mchale, Parrish and DJ.....I could care less though, its different era and its a "right now" sports culture.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe carried the offensive load for LA, played as good man defense as anyone else on his team on rondo, was the second leading rebounder, and was tthe steals leader for the whole series.

As far as not playing well? He was easily the best player in the series so that doesn't carry much weight. :confusedshrug:

He did not approach the level Wade or Lebron were at this year. Just like he did not approach the level Wade was at last year.

Therefore you can't use your line of thinking. If Kobe had played as well as Wade for example and still struggled to win in 7 I would totally agree with you, but the fact remains that he didn't.

He didn't play well late in tight games either. He looked to his stacked team to make the big plays late in the biggest games. Why? Because Kobe came up short in crunch time and his "stacked team" made all the big plays.

Just like Fisher and Artest and Gasol............

Sorry.

And that sad thing is that I'm not saying the Heat aren't stacked. They absolutely are when healthy. You, however, are claiming the Lakers weren't stacked last year. Which is a joke of course.

And you still can't grasp how the Heat role players were total non factors in the Celtics series......

[kaiiu]

this thread turned into a circle jerk of Kobe haters :oldlol:

[gilalizard]

this thread turned into a circle jerk of Kobe haters :oldlol:

Which serves the purpose of the dwhistle/chosen1 fanbois, by not talking about how stacked Miami is now.

[The Decision]

How many times is Gino/dmavs is going to get owned in a thread?

Its like an every-day occurance! Take it easy on him Tpos! :lol :lol

[The Decision]

Lebron can't win with the most stacked team in recent decades. :roll: :roll:

But But he needs better team-mates! :lol

[kaiiu]

Lebron can't win with the most stacked team in recent decades. :roll: :roll:

But But he needs better team-mates! :lol
:lol 17 ppg 41% and the Heat still should have swept. That says alot about how STACKED this team is. Lebron has been the 4th best Heat this series

[2010splash]

Because no one gives a sh*t about the "4-12" of an NBA roster. Top heavy teams always win and in the NBA's history have been the dynasties.

No team has ever been as top heavy as Miami. Anyone who disagrees is an idiot. That's why everyone was pissed when Bron picked the Heat. Why is this so hard to understand? Wow, just because they have fillers like Haslem, Miller, Bibby instead of Kukoc, Odom etc means they are less stacked than other title teams? LOL!

Fact: the only duo with as individually dominant players as LeBron/Wade was Shaq/Kobe. The difference is that the Lakers never had a third wheel even a fifth as talented as Bosh.

If Bron fails to win it all, he's the most overrated player ever (imo he already is).

[macpierce]

top heavy reminds me of big gorgeous breasts

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Because no one gives a sh*t about the "4-12" of an NBA roster. Top heavy teams always win and in the NBA's history have been the dynasties.

No team has ever been as top heavy as Miami. Anyone who disagrees is an idiot. That's why everyone was pissed when Bron picked the Heat. Why is this so hard to understand? Wow, just because they have fillers like Haslem, Miller, Bibby instead of Kukoc, Odom etc means they are less stacked than other title teams? LOL!

Fact: the only duo with as individually dominant players as LeBron/Wade was Shaq/Kobe. The difference is that the Lakers never had a third wheel even a fifth as talented as Bosh.

If Bron fails to win it all, he's the most overrated player ever (imo he already is).
right now,i think Spoelstra would give both Bosh and LeBron for Robert Horry

[scm5]

Well, when you think about it, the Heat are pretty stacked.

When you have 2 of the best players in the NBA, plus a Top 15 player... and then you've got Mike Miller and Bibby as your 4th and 5th options, you're doing pretty good.

They're lacking in one position: Center. That's it.

[Jacks3]

lol @ Gino/DMavs. :oldlol:

[Hank]

Fact: the only duo with as individually dominant players as LeBron/Wade was Shaq/Kobe. The difference is that the Lakers never had a third wheel even a fifth as talented as Bosh.

If Bron fails to win it all, he's the most overrated player ever (imo he already is).

Well Shaq/Kobe only won 3 titles for the 8 years they spent together. A Prime Shaq , the LA Shaq, was the most dominant force this league has ever seen. LeBron or Wade win more than just 3 titles in 8 years if either of them played with Shaq in Top form. LeBron or Wade would be 5/8 or 6/8 with a Prime Shaq. Not 3/8 like kobe.

[DMAVS41]

lol @ Gino/DMavs. :oldlol:

What?

Do people still think this Heat team is so stacked its unfair?

LOL @ anyone that thinks that at this point.

[Doctor Rivers]

Well Shaq/Kobe only won 3 titles for the 8 years they spent together. A Prime Shaq , the LA Shaq, was the most dominant force this league has ever seen. LeBron or Wade win more than just 3 titles in 8 years if either of them played with Shaq in Top form. LeBron or Wade would be 5/8 or 6/8 with a Prime Shaq. Not 3/8 like kobe.


haha you're an idiot

[Jacks3]

What?

Do people still think this Heat team is so stacked its unfair?

LOL @ anyone that thinks that at this point.
:roll:

[Jacks3]

Well Shaq/Kobe only won 3 titles for the 8 years they spent together. A Prime Shaq , the LA Shaq, was the most dominant force this league has ever seen. LeBron or Wade win more than just 3 titles in 8 years if either of them played with Shaq in Top form. LeBron or Wade would be 5/8 or 6/8 with a Prime Shaq. Not 3/8 like kobe.
:roll:

They're not going even going to win with another top 3 player + All-Star PF and they're getting 5 or 6 with Shaq? :oldlol:

[whoartthou]

no way were the BULLS (especially the first 3 peat) more stacked than this heat team.... are you fking kidding me?

wade/bron/bosh >>>>> than everyone on the bulls except michael jordan (pippen came into his own after the first ship, the first ship he wasent by any means the pippen we know).


bosh>>>>>>>>>grant

bron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pippen

michael jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wade

haslem/miller/chalmers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mj's scrub teammates

too bad bron and wade cant get it done

[Doctor Rivers]

no way were the BULLS (especially the first 3 peat) more stacked than this heat team.... are you fking kidding me?

wade/bron/bosh >>>>> than everyone on the bulls except michael jordan (pippen came into his own after the first ship, the first ship he wasent by any means the pippen we know).


bosh>>>>>>>>>grant

bron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pippen

michael jordan>wade

haslem/miller/chalmers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mj's scrub teammates

too bad bron and wade cant get it done

fixed

[The Decision]

What?

Do people still think this Heat team is so stacked its unfair?

LOL @ anyone that thinks that at this point.

When their best player is choking, completely invisible and they are only down 1... yes! :oldlol:

[aau]

according to gino

this is playing poorly

g1 - 30/7/6/1/1

g2 - 21/5/6/4/0

g3 - 29/7/4/2/3

g4 - 33/6/2/2/0

g5 - 38/5/4/1/1

g6 - 26/11/3/4/0

g7 - 23/15/2/1/0

kobe totals vs BOS 2010

28p 8r 4a 2s 1b

.

this is a poor series , yet since 1980 just

2 players has avg 28/8/4 in playoffs

lebron and hakeem

.

(don't have finals composites)

[DMAVS41]

according to gino

this is playing poorly

g1 - 30/7/6/1/1

g2 - 21/5/6/4/0

g3 - 29/7/4/2/3

g4 - 33/6/2/2/0

g5 - 38/5/4/1/1

g6 - 26/11/3/4/0

g7 - 23/15/2/1/0

kobe totals vs BOS 2010

28p 8r 4a 2s 1b

.

this is a poor series , yet since 1980

just 2 players has avg 28/8/4 in playoffs

lebron and hakeem

efficiency?
game 7?
crunch time play?

its amazing to me how quickly people revise history.

but that is not even the point. this heat team is not so good its unfair.

they faced a hobbled celtics team and had to grind out close games.
they faced a very good bulls team that got nothing from their best player and still had to grind out close games.

if rose had played half as well as dirk has played the bulls would have won in 5 games.

but yea, they are so good its unfair.

:facepalm

[aau]

efficiency? . . . 4 makes out of 10

game 7? . . . . . 23 points 15 rebounds

crunch time play? . . . . B2B FMVP



revisions

[DMAVS41]

revisions

i was talking more about him shooting 27% in the 4th qtrs and coming up small while his teammates bailed him out.

i was taking more about one of the most selfish 3 qtrs of basketball I've ever seen in game 7. 6-24 and bailed out by his help.

its not different.

what more evidence do people need?

is anyone claiming that Lebron is playing well? no. he's playing horribly. much worse than kobe did last year.

this is not about that. its about this heat team being "so good its unfair"....i don't see how anyone can say that.

bosh is not superstar.
wade and lebron still struggle at times together.
they have an inexperienced coach.

this is not the most stacked team ever. its just a stacked team with a lot of talent.

i just find it funny now. what if the mavs win? give the mavs credit for beating such a stacked team that everyone called "so good its unfair" just 7 days ago.

You can't have it both ways.

[Mr. Jabbar]

What?

Do people still think this Heat team is so stacked its unfair?

LOL @ anyone that thinks that at this point.

lol the team is epically stacked, not playing to their potential is a whole different story. the 2 "best" players in the league at or near their primes, another top10(maybe top15), contributing bench, what else can u ask.

[DMAVS41]

lol the team is epically stacked, not playing to their potential is a whole different story. the 2 "best" players in the league at or near their primes, another top10(maybe top15), contributing bench, what else can u ask.

nothing.

they are stacked. i have said this repeatedly.

just like so many other teams in nba history.

you can't have it both ways. either give this mavs team credit for beating an all time stacked team or come back to earth about how good this team actually is.

its not just this series. the bulls series was very close. if rose has been just decent the bulls could have won that series. it goes 7 for sure.

you can't sit here and prop up this heat team to diminish players you don't like and then not turn around and use the same standards and give the mavs a ton of credit if they win.

if the heat are as good as you say, this would be by far the biggest upset in nba finals history. somehow i doubt people like you will give the mavs/dirk that kind of credit.

[Jacks3]

according to gino

this is playing poorly

g1 - 30/7/6/1/1

g2 - 21/5/6/4/0

g3 - 29/7/4/2/3

g4 - 33/6/2/2/0

g5 - 38/5/4/1/1

g6 - 26/11/3/4/0

g7 - 23/15/2/1/0

kobe totals vs BOS 2010

28p 8r 4a 2s 1b

.

this is a poor series , yet since 1980 just

2 players has avg 28/8/4 in playoffs

lebron and hakeem

.

(don't have finals composites)
Dude makes me laugh. He'll put out some arbitrary/selective facts to make Kobe's series look worse than it. :oldlol:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Dude makes me laugh. He'll put out some arbitrary/selective facts to make Kobe's series look worse than it. :oldlol:

I mean, how can you not be arbitrary if you're going against the 2x Finals MVP in those Finals :oldlol: , hes to handicapped to play that battle fairly...

[Mr. Jabbar]

nothing.

they are stacked. i have said this repeatedly.

just like so many other teams in nba history.

you can't have it both ways. either give this mavs team credit for beating an all time stacked team or come back to earth about how good this team actually is.

its not just this series. the bulls series was very close. if rose has been just decent the bulls could have won that series. it goes 7 for sure.

you can't sit here and prop up this heat team to diminish players you don't like and then not turn around and use the same standards and give the mavs a ton of credit if they win.

if the heat are as good as you say, this would be by far the biggest upset in nba finals history. somehow i doubt people like you will give the mavs/dirk that kind of credit.

well thats correct. Bulls were defensive juggernauts, but DRose completely destroyed their offense by joining the unclutch club with the GOAT unclutch candidate Boozer, that was their undoing on that series.

[DMAVS41]

well thats correct. Bulls were defensive juggernauts, DRose completely destroyed their offense by joining the unclutch club with the GOAT unclutch candidate Boozer was their undoing on the Offensive end.

yep.

which is exactly why this heat team is not nearly as good as people (for obvious reasons) are making it out to be.

[aau]

i was talking more about him shooting 27% in the 4th qtrs
and coming up small while his teammates bailed him out.

imagine a player on a championship caliber team
receiving help from his teammates . . . wow
must have been a first

are any of dirk's teammates helping him out
marion's defense on lebron . . . kidd and
barea running circles around the opp
jason terry hitting clutch buckets
tyson chandler rebounding and
blocking shots . . . what do
you think of these guys
gino

also , dirk is avg 27/9/2/0/0 thru 5

how would you classify his play thus far

.

i was taking more about one of the most selfish
3 qtrs of basketball I've ever seen in game 7.

must not have watched much basketball

.

is anyone claiming that Lebron is playing well? no.

because they can't . . . .

and it has nothing to do with his FG%

this game is about effort and giving your absolute best


debating whether the heat (or any team ftm) are stacked
or not is stupid . . . . all title contending teams have
a multitude of good to great players . . . . .

that's what makes them championship caliber

[DMAVS41]

debating whether the heat (or any team ftm) are stacked
or not is stupid . . . . all title contending teams have
a multitude of good to great players . . . . .

that's what makes them championship caliber

what?

i totally agree. check the thread. LOL

what are you even arguing then?

you are just agreeing with me.


as for classifying Dirk's play? Amazing given his circumstances. He is playing a better team and two of the 4 best players in the game. He is not only playing well overall, but is dominating the 4th qtrs and crunch time like no player has since Jordan.

Take a look at the crunch time production in the finals:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/30090/lebron-disappearing-in-crunch-time

LOL....

For those that don't click the link:

Dirk - 26 points on 62% shooting. 100% free throws. Averaging 10 ppg in the 4th qtr through 5 games now.

[aau]

Dude makes me laugh. He'll put out some arbitrary/selective facts to make Kobe's series look worse than it. :oldlol:

i know

it helps him sleep at night

[aau]

what?

i totally agree. check the thread. LOL

what are you even arguing then?

you are just agreeing with me.

no

you imparted that convo onto me

i simply refuted you saying kobe played poorly

.

classifying Dirk's play? Amazing given his circumstances.

lmao

28/8/4/2/1 vs 27/9/2/0/0

one is amazing . . . the other is poor
.

He is playing a better team

this heat team is better than last year's celtics??!!

ok

.

He is not only playing well overall

amazing is the word you just used

.

dominating the 4th qtrs

that's nice . . . . . .



guess terry's play is a figment of my imagination

[DMAVS41]

What a second.

Are you saying that Kobe was better in the finals last year than Dirk has been so far this year?

Please respond.

[aau]

What a second.

Are you saying that Kobe was better in the finals last year than Dirk has been so far this year?

Please respond.

i don't compare players that way but it's obvious that
you do , so why don't you answer that question

i'm just laffing at you saying one played amazing

and the other played poorly

no more no less

[DMAVS41]

i don't compare players that way but it's obvious that
you do , so why don't you answer that question

i'm just laffing at you saying one played amazing

and the other played poorly

no more no less

dirk is playing much better. its not comparable for me so far.

kobe did play a brilliant game 6 last year, so he can make up so ground there.

[aau]

dirk is playing much better. its not comparable for me so far.

kobe did play a brilliant game 6 last year, so he can make up so ground there.

dirk is playing great imo

as are the other guys . . . esp terry

but you're not giving him (or them) any props . . why is that?

[aau]

rhetorical question

[DMAVS41]

dirk is playing great imo

as are the other guys . . . esp terry

but you're not giving him (or them) any props . . why is that?

i give terry and barea a ton of credit last night.

i give chandler a ton of credit for game 4. he was amazing.

but Dirk is the reason why the Mavs are up in this series. He's been as clutch as possible so far. He found a way to get it done while he was sick.

nobody wins alone. that has been my theme since day 1 here. not going to change it now.

and i've said all throughout the playoffs that this is more about the mavs supporting cast stepping up than Dirk. Dirk normally plays great in the playoffs.

What Dirk deserves a lot of credit for is making pretty much every big play throughout this playoff run so far.

Its the best clutch playoff run since MJ. That is saying a lot.

[KingBeasley08]

cept when kobe wins.. he isnt the main reason. its everyone else :lol

[tpols]

Its the best clutch playoff run since MJ. That is saying a lot.
This is true. Dirk's been way too clutch. His overall impact hasn't really gone past what a lot of other superstars have done in the past while winning rings, but his performances in tight games have been legendary. Dirk's teammates have really stepped up as well though. Kidd and Terry were the MVPs of last night.. they closed the game out.

[DMAVS41]

cept when kobe wins.. he isnt the main reason. its everyone else :lol

are you talking to me?

i never said that kobe wasn't the best player on his team since shaq left. he is most responsible for winning overall. that is obvious.

the debate is about stacked teams. this heat team is not "so good its unfair"

i see no evidence of that in this series, the playoffs, or this year overall.

the heat are definitely stacked though. they just aren't nearly to the level that a lot of agenda driven posters say.

[DMAVS41]

This is true. Dirk's been way too clutch. His overall impact hasn't really gone past what a lot of other superstars have done in the past while winning rings, but his performances in tight games have been legendary. Dirk's teammates have really stepped up as well though. Kidd and Terry were the MVPs of last night.. they closed the game out.

you could argue terry was the mvp of the game last night. not kidd though. that is just laughable.

and when you combine everything for dirk...its more and more becoming legendary:

28 points/8 boards/3 assists on 50/51/94 62% TS

That line alone given the circumstances of this run is astounding, but when you factor in his 4th qtr scoring and clutch play it becomes on a whole different level.

Hopefully he has 1 more great game in him.

[The Decision]

nothing.

they are stacked. i have said this repeatedly.

just like so many other teams in nba history.

you can't have it both ways. either give this mavs team credit for beating an all time stacked team or come back to earth about how good this team actually is.

its not just this series. the bulls series was very close. if rose has been just decent the bulls could have won that series. it goes 7 for sure.

you can't sit here and prop up this heat team to diminish players you don't like and then not turn around and use the same standards and give the mavs a ton of credit if they win.

if the heat are as good as you say, this would be by far the biggest upset in nba finals history. somehow i doubt people like you will give the mavs/dirk that kind of credit.

They are an all-time stacked team who leader choked!
That is the only reason Dallas has won this games, if Lebron played bad, just BAD. Not be invisible.
Heat sweep then easily!

The series could easily been a SWEEP!
But the choking and disappearing of Lebron james brought the Mavs back into it every game.

Think about it, Lebron James has been INVISIBLE and yet all the games were close. Even when they shot lights out last night, they barely won.

Yes they are an all-time stacked team, the Leader is averaging 15 inflated points.

I say inflated because most of them are dunks from fast breaks. He actually only has 2 legit points in the 4th quarter in the entire series. The rest are fact break transistions points and then the point giveaway at the end of last game.

2 half court points in the 4th Quarter of the finals? and YET THEY ARE STILL IN THE GAME!

The luxury of stackness is too much.

In Game 4, Lebron scored just 8 points and his team ALMOST WON THE GAME!
Came down to the last possession of wade missing the freethrow and losing the ball.

The luxury of stackness Lebron has is way too much.

[97 bulls]

This is true. Dirk's been way too clutch. His overall impact hasn't really gone past what a lot of other superstars have done in the past while winning rings, but his performances in tight games have been legendary. Dirk's teammates have really stepped up as well though. Kidd and Terry were the MVPs of last night.. they closed the game out.
Don't forget marion. His defense and scoring have been amazing. Him playing lebron to a standstill is just as important as what dirk is doing.

[amfirst]

Because they are. Arguably the two best player in the game on one team, plus a All-Star power forward and a bunch of knock down shooters to surround them. That's the most stacked team in the NBA.

The only problem is that Dirk is prob the best player this post season and the Mavs have veterans that are hungry.

[DMAVS41]

They are an all-time stacked team who leader choked!
That is the only reason Dallas has won this games, if Lebron played bad, just BAD. Not be invisible.
Heat sweep then easily!

The series could easily been a SWEEP!
But the choking and disappearing of Lebron james brought the Mavs back into it every game.

Think about it, Lebron James has been INVISIBLE and yet all the games were close. Even when they shot lights out last night, they barely won.

Yes they are an all-time stacked team, the Leader is averaging 15 inflated points.

I say inflated because most of them are dunks from fast breaks. He actually only has 2 legit points in the 4th quarter in the entire series. The rest are fact break transistions points and then the point giveaway at the end of last game.

2 half court points in the 4th Quarter of the finals? and YET THEY ARE STILL IN THE GAME!

The luxury of stackness is too much.

In Game 4, Lebron scored just 8 points and his team ALMOST WON THE GAME!
Came down to the last possession of wade missing the freethrow and losing the ball.

The luxury of stackness Lebron has is way too much.

You have to give the Mavericks credit for this. You can't just always say the Heat choked or the Lakers are old.

Damn guys. You have to give the other team some freaking credit. Especially when its the finals.

You people think its just random that Dirk and the Mavs are doing the same thing to the Heat that they did to the Blazers, Lakers, and Thunder?

[DMAVS41]

Don't forget marion. His defense and scoring have been amazing. Him playing lebron to a standstill is just as important as what dirk is doing.

Marion has been great, but Dirk is by far the Mavericks best and most valuable player in this series. Its not even remotely close.

Nothing that any other player has provided comes close to equaling what Dirk has done in this series.

[ShaqAttack3234]

nothing.

they are stacked. i have said this repeatedly.

just like so many other teams in nba history.

you can't have it both ways. either give this mavs team credit for beating an all time stacked team or come back to earth about how good this team actually is.

If the Mavs hang on and win, this is what I'm going to do, and regardless of the outcome, they get credit from me anyway. I've been right with you before this praising Dirk's playoff play and saying he's been a legit franchise player before this run. I also had him among my MVP candidates this season.

After both games 1 and 3, all of the analysts were saying that it looked like Dallas just didn't have the talent to beat the Heat.

Dallas is 1 game away from a title for several reasons, and they do parallel the 2003 Spurs in quite a few ways.

1.Great playoff run from their star, he's consistently stepped up in big moments and carried them a lot. Both throughout games as evidenced by his 28/8/3/50 FG%/62 TS% numbers, his insane clutch play, his huge demoralizing games such as those 40+ point games vs OKC and his leadership. After the game where he was sick, people have already forgotten that there were a lot of concerns about Dirk's injury, but he played through that admirably as well. He's making the passes when doubled, and he's beating a lot of double teams when they come, and when he shoots, you feel like it's going in.

2.A solid cast that has stepped up at the right times

Dirk has been the best player in the playoffs, imo, but I do think the Heat are the most talented I've seen in a while, though the '08 Celtics had more chemistry and leadership.

[L.A. Jazz]

USA!!!
normally the media reports about the one star of a team and maybe his sidekick on off days. e.g. with Dallas it's all about Dirk.

but with the Heat they have to count to 3. they have the best player in the NBA, another superstar and top 5 player in Wade and another Allstar in Bosh. there is no space left for real sidekicks.

the last team so top heavy were the Lakers in 02. with the great Shaq and Kobe they had 2 of the 5 best players in the NBA. but they had no Allstar like Bosh who was no1 option on another NBA team before.

[97 bulls]

Marion has been great, but Dirk is by far the Mavericks best and most valuable player in this series. Its not even remotely close.

Nothing that any other player has provided comes close to equaling what Dirk has done in this series.
Are you serious? I think marion playing one of the best players in the league to a standstillm even outplaying him. And chandlers rebounding and overall defense is what keeping the mavs in it. And marion has been consistant from game one