Does anyone 25 and over actually think Kobe, LeBron, or Wade is better than MJ?

[game385]

I maybe wrong, but I typically assume that anyone who passionately believes and argues that Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, or anyone else is better than Michael Jordan is just some dumb ass kid who never saw MJ play.

How many grown ass men here (or women), who actually saw MJ play during the 80s and or 90s actually believe that one of these guys is better?


I'll admit that I may never fully appreciate the games of Magic, Bird, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson and a host of other players that played before my time. However, I respect their legacies and what I've learned from those who know first hand and came before me. (The difference is, even those older guys who watched Magic, Bird, Oscar, etc play in their prime... still admit that MJ was the greatest.

[LAClipsFan33]

I'm 28. MJ was better than all of them

[Scoooter]

I'm four and I just made stinkies in my pants.

[adri41]

I'm 26. There will never be another MJ.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

I'm 71. Kobe, Bron, and Wade are better than MJ.

[lakers_forever]

I'm 26. There will never be another MJ.

I'm 27. I hope there will be a player better than MJ in the future (we can't say it won't happen), but Kobe, Lebron and Wade are not that player.

[adri41]

Talent wise? Yes. But for the time, the circumstances, the way he played and the way he dominated...Michael Jordan defines the NBA to me.

[Kobe24Clutch]

Didn't you hear pippen Lebron is better than MJ and is the GOAT. :hammerhead:

[Kobe24Clutch]

Talent wise? Yes. But for the time, the circumstances, the way he played and the way he dominated...Michael Jordan defines the NBA to me.
Suck his d1ck already dam. :lol

[swi7ch]

Nope.

There is a reason MJ is regarded by the GOAT by just about everyone who has played pro basketball. Only some armchair warriors like those here on ISH think otherwise.

[poido123]

I'm almost 29, Jordan no doubt.

It makes me cringe when people try and convince others that Player A is better than MJ, it is like hearing the screech on a chalkboard :facepalm

[game385]

Talent wise? Yes. But for the time, the circumstances, the way he played and the way he dominated...Michael Jordan defines the NBA to me.

Depends on ur definition of talent... U know that old saying. Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. Some of these guys of the newer generation are perhaps every bit the athlete that MJ was but by all accounts MJ was not only the best athlete/player, he was the hardest worker as well.

To me, Kobe is the Michael mirror, but an imperfect reflection at best. Not quite the athlete. Not quite the talent. Not quite the will... Close but no cigar.

LeBron is an athletic freak but for all the other intangibles that encompass greatness in the NBA, MJ defines for me as well...

Dwyane Wade is a talented basketball player better than most. Perhaps in the 95th percentile. But if Wade is in the 95th percentile, MJ is in the 99.99999th percentile...

[kaiiu]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1qvtjYj_f64/TLNdvtM0MQI/AAAAAAAAAAg/agJiXM-9pVI/S490/older-man-using-computer.jpg

This is me im 63. Yes those 3 are better than Jordan.

[sh0wtime]

None of them were better as players (talent-skill) or had better careers. But..

In terms of career, Kobe is the closest.

In terms of talent-skill-productions, Lebron is the closest and actually very close (but somewhat different game/player). Some might even favor Lebron in this department, like these guys called Scottie Pippen, Oscar Robertson for example.

/A guy who is kindof over 25. :)

[Kobe24Clutch]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1qvtjYj_f64/TLNdvtM0MQI/AAAAAAAAAAg/agJiXM-9pVI/S490/older-man-using-computer.jpg

This is me im 63. Yes those 3 are better than Jordan.
MJ in today's league = Poor mans Tony allen? :roll: :roll:

[24r2]

i watched the nba since 1947. and this past decade is the first time I saw pure talent.. which is in the Black Mamba :rockon: :rockon:

[kaiiu]

MJ in today's league = Poor mans Tony allen? :roll: :roll:
damn right jive turkey:oldlol:

[adri41]

I also don't see why people take it personally or think it's some grievous insult to say someone isn't better than Michael Jordan. No one is saying Kobe and LeBron aren't incredible players, and some of the best of all time...but it's Michael Freaking Jordan.

[game385]

Suck his d1ck already dam. :lol

I see the children have come out to play... :roll:


I'll take that as a no to my original question :oldlol: .

[G-train]

I watched them all play, and Lebron has a chance to be better but isn't currently. He plays a different style but its just as effective at times.

[artest 93]

I MAYBE. I MAYBE WRONG (LOL)... but I typically assume that anyone who passionately believes and argues that Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, or anyone else is better than Michael Jordan is just some dumb ass kid who never saw MJ play.

How many grown ass men here (or women), who actually saw MJ play during the 80s and or 90s actually believe that one of these guys is better?.

Is there anyone here over the age of 25 that still type/speak like this? LOL!!!

:rolleyes:

[game385]

I watched them all play, and Lebron has a chance to be better but isn't currently. He plays a different style but its just as effective at times.

Yeah. LeBron is an athletic freak but he's not nearly accomplished enough to support a credible claim to being better than MJ. Personally, I think that's what Scottie Pippen was referring to in his statement. His athleticism and skill, but it takes more than that to be better than MJ.

The crazy thing is, he probably had the best shot at making a legitimate case for the throne but he'll never get the full credit of all the other intangibles that we use to define greatness b/c he chose to play w/ D-Wade. (Even if he wins...)

His athleticism at his size is actually > MJ but choosing to join Wade's team will always reflect negatively on him in this particular argument.

[game385]

Is there anyone here over the age of 25 that still type/speak like this? LOL!!!

:rolleyes:

fail...

Again, I'll take that as a no. LOL. U kids today...:oldlol:

[Ne 1]

I am an 85 year old man who has seen Mikan, Cousy, Russell, Pettit, West, Wilt, Barry, Hondo, Oscar, Kareem, Walton, McAdoo, Bird, Magic and many other greats who were better than Jordan.

I can honestly say that Kobe, LeBron, Wade are better than Jordan. Also Kevin Durant, prime Tracy McGrady and prime Vince Carter are on Jordan's level.

[asdf1990]

i watched the nba since 1947. and this past decade is the first time I saw pure talent.. which is in the Black Mamba :rockon: :rockon:

chucking isn't talent....

[kaiiu]

I am an 85 year old man who has seen Mikan, Cousy, Russell, Pettit, West, Wilt, Barry, Hondo, Oscar, Kareem, Walton, McAdoo, Bird, Magic and many other greats who were better than Jordan.

I can honestly say that Kobe, LeBron, Wade are better than Jordan. Also Kevin Durant, prime Tracy McGrady and prime Vince Carter are on Jordan's level.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Prime Kobe was certainly a more skilled player than Jordan. Unfortunately, he wasn't lucky enough to blessed with the G.O.A.T like athleticism Jordan possessed. If he had he would have been a superior player. LeBron? His peak play (08-09) has already surpassed anything Jordan ever did as a player. Now he just needs the longevity to surpass him overall.

[game385]

I am an 85 year old man who has seen Mikan, Cousy, Russell, Pettit, West, Wilt, Barry, Hondo, Oscar, Kareem, Walton, McAdoo, Bird, Magic and many other greats who were better than Jordan.

I can honestly say that Kobe, LeBron, Wade are better than Jordan. Also Kevin Durant, prime Tracy McGrady and prime Vince Carter are on Jordan's level.


:roll: good job

[thejumpa]

I probably don't count as I'm 24 but I'll give my 2 cents anyway. Started watching ball in '92 and saw my fair share of Jordan from then along with his earlier years. Kobe is the closest to being "MJ". Wade reminds me of a younger MJ. Because of his size/versatile skillset/athleticism/etc, LeBron is in a class of his own. I suppose all 3 have the potential to be the best player of all time. Neither are better than MJ and I agree that if you think they are, you probably never really watched Jordan anyway. Either that or you don't care to analyze him the right way(watching games and not ESPN) but prefer stats over everything.

[game385]

Prime Kobe was certainly a more skilled player than Jordan. Unfortunately, he wasn't lucky enough to blessed with the G.O.A.T like athleticism Jordan possessed. If he had he would have been a superior player. LeBron? His peak play (08-09) has already surpassed anything Jordan ever did as a player. Now he just needs the longevity to surpass him overall.

How do you define being more skilled than Jordan? His shooting? Passing ability? Ball handles?

[Kobe24Clutch]

fail...

Again, I'll take that as a no. LOL. U kids today...:oldlol:
The way you talk about MJ it seems to me like you have his nuts in your face.:lol Ohh bytheway MJ today = Poor man's Tony Allen.

[game385]

I probably don't count as I'm 24 but I'll give my 2 cents anyway. Started watching ball in '92 and saw my fair share of Jordan from then along with his earlier years. Kobe is the closest to being "MJ". Wade reminds me of a younger MJ. Because of his size/versatile skillset/athleticism/etc, LeBron is in a class of his own. I suppose all 3 have the potential to be the best player of all time. Neither are better than MJ and I agree that if you think they are, you probably never really watched Jordan anyway. Either that or you don't care to analyze him the right way(watching games and not ESPN) but prefer stats over everything.

:applause:

Sorry to count you out but I thought 25 was a nice round number.

[miles berg]

I hated Jordan but the guy is quite simply a notch above these guys, perhaps two.

And he didn't have to join up sit Magic Johnson to win, he just went out there and beat him in the Finals.

[ThaSwagg3r]

How do you define being more skilled than Jordan? His shooting? Passing ability? Ball handles?
The only thing Kobe was more skilled than Jordan in was shooting. And that is just range. Jordan has him beat in shot selection and efficiency by a country mile.

[juju151111]

Prime Kobe was certainly a more skilled player than Jordan. Unfortunately, he wasn't lucky enough to blessed with the G.O.A.T like athleticism Jordan possessed. If he had he would have been a superior player. LeBron? His peak play (08-09) has already surpassed anything Jordan ever did as a player. Now he just needs the longevity to surpass him overall.
:facepalm

[game385]

The way you talk about MJ it seems to me like you have his nuts in your face.:lol Ohh bytheway MJ today = Poor man's Tony Allen.


I bet you're still a virgin...

Get some p*ssy you dumbass kid..:roll:

[Kobe24Clutch]

I bet you're still a virgin...:roll:

Get some p*ssy you dumbass kid.
:no::lol I'm not and i have. I bet you have a pic of naked Jordan in your room. :lol

[game385]

The only thing Kobe was more skilled than Jordan in was shooting. And that is just range. Jordan has him beat in shot selection and efficiency by a country mile.

Yeaaaaaahhh, Idk about that. Jordan wasn't the greatest shooter early on his career but by the 90's he was the deadliest mid-range shooter in the game. You may be able to make an argument about Kobe being a better long-range shooter, but that's probably b/c MJ didn't fall in love w/the 3 like Kobe has been prone to do throughout his career.

But I'll give you that one. Kobe is perhaps the better 3 point shooter.

MJ mid-range > all

[Kobe24Clutch]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh, Idk about that. Jordan wasn't the greatest shooter early on his career but by the 90's he was the deadliest mid-range shooter in the game. You may be able to make an argument about Kobe being a better long-range shooter, but that's probably b/c MJ didn't fall in love w/the 3 like Kobe has been prone to do throughout his career.

But I'll give you that one. Kobe is perhaps the better 3 point shooter.

MJ D1ck > all
Fixed that for you.:lol

[game385]

:no::lol I'm not and i have. I bet you have a pic of naked Jordan in your room. :lol

U know ur just proving my point... U kids today :oldlol:

[rmt]

To me, Kobe is the Michael mirror, but an imperfect reflection at best. Not quite the athlete. Not quite the talent. Not quite the will... Close but no cigar.
rcentile...

Nowhere near the will - which (for me) is what separates MJ from all other players.

[Jacks3]

How do you define being more skilled than Jordan? His shooting? Passing ability? Ball handles?
Foot-work, shooting ability, ball-handling, craftiness (hesitation moves, pump-fakes, ball-fakes, etc). Just a more skilled player.

[Kobe24Clutch]

U know ur just proving my point... U kids today :oldlol:
Why do you get so defensive when i say something bad about Jordan? Ohh i know it's because you're already on you knees that's why.:lol

[game385]

Foot-work, shooting ability, ball-handling, craftiness (hesitation moves, pump-fakes, ball-fakes, etc). Just a more skilled player.

I'm gonna need to see some ID sir??? (haha)... b/c MJ was better in all those areas.

[game385]

Why do you get so defensive when i say something bad about Jordan? Ohh i know it's because you're already on you knees that's why.:lol

Where did I get defensive?

[Jacks3]

I'm gonna need to see some ID sir??? (haha)... b/c MJ was better in all those areas.
:oldlol:

[artest 93]

U know ur just proving my point... U kids today :oldlol:

Everyone here is a kid. You're an uneducated, desperate-for-attention adult trying to prove a moot point so you can go to sleep at night because the general public agrees that MJ is the greatest.

Why don't you get some real friends to have discussions with? And then also realize that regardless of how great MJ is, the debate/comparisons drawn by Jordan's career is something that drives basketball. Stupidity and insecurity, traits that you clearly possess, drives this website.

But then again, I suppose you do need something to keep you busy until next season.

[Suckafree]

I'm 12 and what is this

[jlip]

I'm 34 and this same question could be asked of people older than 55, but between Oscar Robertson and MJ or Wilt and MJ. It seems as if people who grew up watching the 60's are more inclined to believe that Wilt and/ or Oscar are better than MJ. I've read several articles and heard several stories from people over the age of 55 profess that Oscar was more skilled than MJ or that Wilt was far more dominant than MJ. As humans we are often biased towards the era that we grew up watching. Nostalgia is powerful. I'm amazed at how my generation is turning into my father's generation.

[hihofink]

I'm 28. Only 1 player in my 20 years of NBA watching compares in MJ's dominance- and that's shaq.

Not talking about talent or ability...but one of the things that made MJ great was his dominance. He was unstoppable. You could only hope to contain him. Same goes for shaq on offense but for fewer years and his free throw shooting made him human. Jordan got his 30+ no matter what - even on bad nights.

nonetheless, I have never felt Kobe, Lebron or anyone else in the past 20 years was ever unstoppable on the court where I would simply know the guy was going to dominate no matter what.

[Ne 1]

Foot-work, shooting ability, ball-handling, craftiness (hesitation moves, pump-fakes, ball-fakes, etc). Just a more skilled player.

Also; left hand, mid-range game, 3-point shot, help defense, off hand, ball handling, post game, footwork and shooting form.

[game385]

Everyone here is a kid. You're an uneducated, desperate-for-attention adult trying to prove a moot point so you can go to sleep at night because the general public agrees that MJ is the greatest.

Why don't you get some real friends to have discussions with? And then also realize that regardless of how great MJ is, the debate/comparisons drawn by Jordan's career is something that drives basketball. Stupidity and insecurity, traits that you clearly possess, drives this website.

But then again, I suppose you do need something to keep you busy until next season.

Really dude? I guess losers who post here, would like to assume that everyone else here is a loser too. LOL I'm sorry to burst your bubble but I'm neither uneducated nor insecure. This is a hobby, a way to burn some time when I’m bored.

A hobby that you in fact share since you too are member of this discussion forum and felt compelled to comment on my post.
:oldlol: You gotta appreciate the irony there. Anyway. GTF outta here with that bullsh*t...

[az00m]

Kobe was not better than Jordan in their respectful primes.

That's a complete joke and utter stupidity. :D

[Kobe24Clutch]

Kobe & Lebron > Jordan :confusedshrug:

[Bigsmoke]

I'm 95 years old and I think MJ is the best ever.

[kaiiu]

I'm 95 years old and I think MJ is the best ever.
Ill take Scotties words over yours. Lebron> MJ and so is Kobe

[UwishUhadWall]

28 here and no ****ing way. Michael Jordan is to basketball as Babe Ruth is to baseball, Pele is to soccer and Gretzky is to hockey. If there were a Mt Rushmore of sports he would be on it. And after Pele, there would be less of a debate about it than anyone else. I guarantee we will never say the same about Lebron and Kobe. They want to be Michel Jordan, they aren't him. I'm not sure the younger ones understand this totally yet.

I ****ing hate the guy for his time with the Wizards, but as a Witness it is absolutely impossible for me to deny his greatness. I pity those who are in a position to do so. You missed out.

[USABall]

I'm 27 and I don't think either are better than Jordan, but I also don't think people should immediately use Jordan as a comparison when mentioning great players. Tons of others exist from decades ago.

[Kobe24Clutch]

28 here and no ****ing way. Michael Jordan is to basketball as Babe Ruth is to baseball, Pele is to soccer and Gretzky is to hockey. If there were a Mt Rushmore of sports he would be on it. And after Pele, there would be less of a debate about it than anyone else. I guarantee we will never say the same about Lebron and Kobe. They want to be Michel Jordan, they aren't him. I'm not sure the younger ones understand this totally yet.

I ****ing hate the guy for his time with the Wizards, but as a Witness it is absolutely impossible for me to deny his greatness. I pity those who are in a position to do so. You missed out.
:lol :no: Maradona is better than that fool.

[YAWN]

No one in the league now is better, heck no one in the league now has a realistic chance to be ranked higher than MJ... Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan of this fading era didn't even make it to the top 5. Lebron and Durant may have a shot at the top 5 depending on how things play out though. Haven't seen enough of guys like Rose or Griffin to accurately gauge their ceilings.

[UwishUhadWall]

:lol :no: Maradona is better than that fool.

Yawn.


Edit: Lmao. Just saw the sn of the previous poster. That's crazy.

[Kobe24Clutch]

Yawn.
Besides Kobe & Lebron better than MJ. MJ Today = Poor man's Tony Allen :confusedshrug:

[Quizno]

28 here and no ****ing way. Michael Jordan is to basketball as Babe Ruth is to baseball, Pele is to soccer and Gretzky is to hockey. If there were a Mt Rushmore of sports he would be on it. And after Pele, there would be less of a debate about it than anyone else. I guarantee we will never say the same about Lebron and Kobe. They want to be Michel Jordan, they aren't him. I'm not sure the younger ones understand this totally yet.

I ****ing hate the guy for his time with the Wizards, but as a Witness it is absolutely impossible for me to deny his greatness. I pity those who are in a position to do so. You missed out.
insult to michael haha

anyway, didn't watch michael, i'm only 19. but who really cares? they're just different players and ranking them doesn't matter at all.

[UwishUhadWall]

Besides Kobe & Lebron better than MJ. MJ Today = Poor man's Tony Allen :confusedshrug:

Troll. And an extraordinary lame one.

[gengiskhan]

If you combine Lebron, Wade, Kobe

Lebron + Prime Wade + Prime Kobe = MJ

individually

lebron or kobe or wade by themselves are not even 50% of MJ.

[UwishUhadWall]

insult to michael haha

anyway, didn't watch michael, i'm only 19. but who really cares? they're just different players and ranking them doesn't matter at all.

What is an insult to Michael? That he is the person who defines basketball? As Babe Ruth does to baseball?

[zay_24]

Prime Paul Pierce was better than prime jordan....
So you figure it out

[kaiiu]

Prime Paul Pierce was better than prime jordan....
So you figure it out
exactly. Whats Tony Allens number right now?

[zay_24]

exactly. Whats Tony Allens number right now?
aint it 9:lol

[kaiiu]

aint it 9:lol
MJ would be #8 then.

Gotta get that Jordan number 1 under Allen :oldlol:

[zay_24]

MJ would be #8 then.

Gotta get that Jordan number 1 under Allen :oldlol:
:roll:

Now we see why Kobe 'Da Gawd' Bryant picked number 24 :bowdown:

[kaiiu]

:roll:

Now we see why Kobe 'Da Gawd' Bryant picked number 24 :bowdown:
24 hours trappin da Mamba :bowdown:

[Kobe24Clutch]

If you combine Lebron, Wade, Kobe

Lebron + Prime Wade + Prime Kobe = MJ

individually

lebron or kobe or wade by themselves are not even 50% of MJ.
:wtf: Prime Kobe and Prime Lebron > Prime Jordan. You mad?

[Lucifer]

Wade is hella overrated on insidehoops. I don't think any of these guys are better then MJ, but Kobe and Lebron have done a lot of things to merit some discussion. WTF has Wade done? :confusedshrug:

[d.bball.guy]

Bogans >>>> MJ.

Deal. With. It.

[24r2]

I'm 95 years old and I think MJ is the best ever.

95 years old and your still a f@g :facepalm

[DaHeezy]

I'm 34, but what does it matter? Jordan fans will find a way to insult you and your opinion if you did think any player today is better than Jordan. Seriously the most defensive lot of the bunch these Jordians

[FKAri]

Better in what way? Jordan is probably the greatest of all time. But if you wanna make the time machine argument then I'm pretty sure a prime Lebron put in the NBA in 1988 would destroy a league that isn't running zone. But that's an unfair argument.

Kobe, Lebron, all these modern perimeter players added things to their game that Jordan and others of the past developed. I can read a book and learn calculus faster than Newton invented it. Am I "greater" than Newton? No.


Yawn.


Edit: Lmao. Just saw the sn of the previous poster. That's crazy.

Maradona is on par with Pele. While it seems Messi is the chosen one right now like Lebron was when he came into the league.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

You do realize there are people that never saw MJ play but swear up and down he is the GOAT too right?

[Bigsmoke]

95 years old and your still a f@g :facepalm

u already know :rockon:

[kaiiu]

You do realize there are people that never saw MJ play but swear up and down he is the GOAT too right?
MJ is more of a myth than anything. Like candyman or some shit. :oldlol:

" Players DARED not look him in the eye before tip-off "
:oldlol:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

MJ is more of a myth than anything. Like candyman or some shit. :oldlol:

" Players DARED not look him in the eye before tip-off "
:oldlol:

:oldlol:

[Kobe24Clutch]

MJ is more of a myth than anything. Like candyman or some shit. :oldlol:

" Players DARED not look him in the eye before tip-off "
:oldlol:
That's because today he'll be Poor man's Tony Allen. :lol

[kaiiu]

That's because today he'll be Poor man's Tony Allen. :lol
:oldlol: Tony Allen on his death bed

[Nevaeh]

MJ is more of a myth than anything. Like candyman or some shit. :oldlol:

" Players DARED not look him in the eye before tip-off "
:oldlol:

Now THAT was funny. Been waiting for the Old "Doe Like" dude to return from the dead and drop those automated posts of yours.:oldlol:

"BE my victim"........

[artest 93]

Wow... that is a very specific, judgmental, and accusatory post that is so far off you wouldn't believe it. However, since you took it there, I guess I should "defend" myself.

I have a beautiful girlfriend who works nights, which is why I'm currently posting here instead of spending my evening w/ her. Most of my posts are typically made during the day, while I'm burning time on a lunch break.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I am in fact educated. I actually have 2 degrees... Just finished up my MBA and landed a pretty descent entry level position w/ a fortune 100 company. I don't start until for another month so I have a bit more time on my hands for pointless discussions such as this one. A friend of mine actually introduced me to this site in college. A friend who was pre-med btw and is now in medical school, so you have no idea who these other posters are.

No need to get into anymore details of my personal life, but I post here in my spare time to do nothing else but burn time by participating in a few harmless and typically pointless arguments for my own entertainment. I'd wager that such activity accounts for at least 50 percent of all internet usage...

I don't know, nor do I care what the hell is wrong (or right) w/ your life, but you may not want to make such personal attacks attributing your own f*cked up life and character flaws to people you don't know...

:roll:

Someone does not understand the internet.

Look at how you're trying to explain your lifestory to strangers on the internet. Why don't you do something better with your time? I don't care about your personal life at all. I could care less if you're a millionaire dating Megan Fox. That doesn't make you a credible person. I can sit here and say that I have my MBA and my CPA/CFA, but why on earth would I do that? I won't because I don't care about what people on the internet have to say. I know that they will disagree with me on many topics and I accept that. You, on the other hand, feel like you need to prove that your opinion is an absolute and it is the only correct one. And that's the issue.

The problem I have with your post and your thread in general is because you are questioning the ability of younger people to be objective. Look at how provoking your thread title and original post are. It can be translated to "Disagree with me? How old are you?" I knew when I clicked on this thread that it would be entertaining. You went on to call people "kids" because, well, it seems to be a legitimate response on your part. It was an extremely arrogant chose of words and it is only appropriate that it is met with hostility.

I'm surprised that, as educated as you claim to be, you don't seem to understand that explosive NBA superstars will continuously be compared to Jordan until he is ultimately surpassed. Either that or you just won't accept it. Some do indeed feel that LeBron and Kobe's talents are on par with MJ's. Some are saying it to troll. What's new? It's not just people on the internet. Primary sources working in the NBA (players, coaches, GMs) have taken similar stances. Why don't go you ask them how old they are?

Personally, I feel that MJ is definitely greater than Kobe and it would take a miracle for LeBron to eclipse him, yet you don't see me shoving that down everyone's throats. In addition to the arrogant tone, there has been a bunch of butt-hurt Rose trolls that have launched an anti-LeBron campaign recently. It is a "SMH" moment. They were comparing Rose to LeBron, which was (and still is) extremely laughable. They say he is the best and that he will send the Heat home early. When he failed to live up to their expectations, they bring up Jordan. SMH?

[Mr. Jabbar]

jordan was better than all of them, specially lebron. :banana:

[kaiiu]

Now THAT was funny. Been waiting for the Old "Doe Like" dude to return from the dead and drop those automated posts of yours.:oldlol:

"BE my victim"........
lol somebody on ISH with some swag :cheers:

[ThaSwagg3r]

Prime Paul Pierce was better than prime jordan....
So you figure it out
http://i25.tinypic.com/103tok7.jpg

[d.bball.guy]

http://i25.tinypic.com/103tok7.jpg
:roll::roll::roll:

[97 bulls]

Im 37 and jordan is the greatest ever. Kobes opportunuity has pasted as has wades. Even though wade never came close. James is next up. We will see. But the same things people are saying about kobe about 2 yrs ago. They are now saying about lebron. The difference is people were saying kobe was more skilled. But people say lebron is the better athlete

[Samurai Swoosh]

Im 37 and jordan is the greatest ever. Kobes opportunuity has pasted as has wades. Even though wade never came close. James is next up. We will see. But the same things people are saying about kobe about 2 yrs ago. They are now saying about lebron. The difference is people were saying kobe was more skilled. But people say lebron is the better athlete
Not anymore. Have you seen LeBron lately? His athleticism is putrid.

[andgar923]

I maybe wrong, but I typically assume that anyone who passionately believes and argues that Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, or anyone else is better than Michael Jordan is just some dumb ass kid who never saw MJ play.

How many grown ass men here (or women), who actually saw MJ play during the 80s and or 90s actually believe that one of these guys is better?


I'll admit that I may never fully appreciate the games of Magic, Bird, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson and a host of other players that played before my time. However, I respect their legacies and what I've learned from those who know first hand and came before me. (The difference is, even those older guys who watched Magic, Bird, Oscar, etc play in their prime... still admit that MJ was the greatest.

No... none of the players mentioned or compared to MJ are better. And I honestly don't think Bron has a chance to be better than him. He may be better in some facets of the game in the future, or surpass some of his achievements, but he doesn't have 'it' and never will.

And this opinion (or close to it) is shared by folks that are in their 40s, 50s and 60s as well. An opinion shared by the vast majority of ex-players, coaches, experts etc.etc. that have seen all (or most) of the all time greats play and played against. So this isn't something that's solely the opinion of "jordan jockers" or something that's due to nostalgic factors either.

There is a reason why people often refer to the best of their field as the "Michael Jordan of __________".

[Kasporelli]

Im 21 and I say MJ is better by far. But you've got to give it to kobe, he's my age groups "MJ" and I'm very happy that he can give us moments of greatness as Jordan has. Kobe is the closest to MJ in every way, style, will, scoring ability, but it seems that he's missing an extra ingredient that we dont have a word for, i guess you can call it the "secret ingredient" that makes him use all those skills, but to the max. There is a legend where an old wise man once told me that if you can perfect your body to the max and control your mind to the max that you can actually gain telekenesis powers, moving objects with your mind, and I think MJ unconsiouslly reached that level of human potential.

that being said, if Kobe can get 8 rings, he would be on par with MJ, historically. 5 on his own and 3 with Shaq. That would be the perfect legacy to leave behind, a triple dynasty. But age is catching up and these new guys aren't pushovers neither.

Lebron has the time and talent to become greater, in terms of wins. Alot of people are going to discredit him for joining Wades team, but I think in time, Wade will be considered the Pippen and it will be just natural to assume that it is Lebrons team, not Wades. Very interesting, of what will become of Lebron in the end.

Michael said that "there will be someone greater" and it's true, in 50 years, the athletes in the NBA will be unreal to witness. Just as it went from Jerry West to Jordan it will go from Jordan to ???? Time will forget how special they once were because in the future all athletes will be way crazier and special. So the only way to compare is the stats and the rings.

But yeah, MJ IS THE GREATEST, as of now.

[bdreason]

I've never seen a non-troll argue any of these guys over MJ. Not even on this forum.

[LBJ4MVP23]

MJ is the best, with Kobe being top 12 ever and Wade being the third best SG ever.

LBJ has a chance to join the top 3 when its all said and done.

[zay_24]

MJ is more of a myth than anything. Like candyman or some shit. :oldlol:

" Players DARED not look him in the eye before tip-off "
:oldlol:
:roll: :roll:

[Rnbizzle]

I'm 34 and this same question could be asked of people older than 55, but between Oscar Robertson and MJ or Wilt and MJ. It seems as if people who grew up watching the 60's are more inclined to believe that Wilt and/ or Oscar are better than MJ. I've read several articles and heard several stories from people over the age of 55 profess that Oscar was more skilled than MJ or that Wilt was far more dominant than MJ. As humans we are often biased towards the era that we grew up watching. Nostalgia is powerful. I'm amazed at how my generation is turning into my father's generation.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Realest shit I never wrote.

[JtotheIzzo]

I maybe wrong, but I typically assume that anyone who passionately believes and argues that Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, or anyone else is better than Michael Jordan is just some dumb ass kid who never saw MJ play.

How many grown ass men here (or women), who actually saw MJ play during the 80s and or 90s actually believe that one of these guys is better?


I'll admit that I may never fully appreciate the games of Magic, Bird, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson and a host of other players that played before my time. However, I respect their legacies and what I've learned from those who know first hand and came before me. (The difference is, even those older guys who watched Magic, Bird, Oscar, etc play in their prime... still admit that MJ was the greatest.

MJ was better than all of them, but LeBron has the chance to be the best in the group. Denial of that reality is hatred. Not saying it will happen, but the potential is there.

[JtotheIzzo]

Not anymore. Have you seen LeBron lately? His athleticism is putrid.


are you on drugs? did you net see his defense in the ECF, that was ALL athleticism.

[IRocket]

MJ is simply the best. His skills, domination, creativity, acobatic styles... all of these make him the best. He is basketball, basketball is him. :violin:

[sekachu]

Foot-work, shooting ability, ball-handling, craftiness (hesitation moves, pump-fakes, ball-fakes, etc). Just a more skilled player.



MJ has done it all the above you mentioned.

[raid09]

Not anymore. Have you seen LeBron lately? His athleticism is putrid.

:facepalm

Just because he wasn't far and away the most athletic player on the floor every game this past season doesn't mean his athleticism is putrid........

[Jacks3]

MJ is more of a myth than anything. Like candyman or some shit. :oldlol:

" Players DARED not look him in the eye before tip-off "
:oldlol:
:oldlol:

[Poochymama]

LeBron? His peak play (08-09) has already surpassed anything Jordan ever did as a player. Now he just needs the longevity to surpass him overall.

Curious what you mean by this. Jordan had better stats(while having the ball in his hands much less), and played much better defense. What exactly has Lebron done that has surpassed anything that Jordan did over that time?

Lebron 08 -09
28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1 on 49% FG 59% TS

Jordan 88-89
32.5/8.0/8.0/2.9/0.8 on 54% FG 61% TS

Jordan's defense that year was >>>>>>>> Lebron's defense that year. Lebron led his team to a better record, but he also had a much better team so that doesn't really hold much weight.

I fail to see how Lebron's 08-09 season is better than anything Jordan has done. It's quite clearly inferior to Jordan's 88-89 season and several other of Jordan's prime years.

In terms of on court impact impact in the regular season (statistically with regards to defense).

89 Jordan > 90 Jordan > 93 Jordan > 88 Jordan > 91 Jordan > 10 Lebron > 92 Jordan > 09 Lebron > 87 Jordan

If we're talking post season, I do agree that Lebron's 09 post season was statistically among the bet ever(maybe the best ever), but when you factor in defense, Jordan's entire first three peat still comes out on top, especially when you consider that Jordan won titles in all of those seasons and put up some of the most epic finals performances of all time.


Prime for prime, Jordan has was slightly better than Lebron, especially when you factor in defense (though Lebron has improved greatly the last couple of years). That being said, Lebron is still in his prime and could improve, but as for what we've seen now, Jordan's prime was better (statistically and impact-fully).

Regular Season

Jordan's Prime (7 years)
33.2/6.4/6.0/2.8/1.1 on 52% FG 59% TS

Lebron's Prime (4 years)
28.7/7.6/7.5/1.7/0.9 on 49% FG 59% TS

Then you take into account the fact the Jordan was the best perimeter defender in the league for all but one of those years (and even that year was arguable), where as Lebron has yet to be the best perimeter defender in the league (though he was somewhat close this year, maybe 3rd or 4th).

Playoffs

Jordan's Prime
34.9/6.7/6.7/2.3/0.9 on 52% FG 59% TS

Lebron's Prime
29.6/8.7/6.9/1.7/1.3 on 47% FG 58% TS

Lebron averaged 2 more rebounds and .4 more blocks but that's about it. Assist were fairly close, but Jordan averaged more than 5 extra points per game on better efficiency plus .6 more blocks per game. 2 rebounds per game is not worth 5.3 ppg

If Lebron can raise his numbers over the next few years so that he has a 7 year stat line of say 30/7.6/7.5/2/1 on 50% FG 60% TS while continuing to improve his defense every year, then his prime would be virtually in line with Jordan's, but otherwise, Jordan's prime is better than Lebron's prime.


As for the original post, I've seen them all, and no, Jordan was better than all of them. Lebron is the closest (prime for prime), but he still comes up a bit short.

[Jacks3]

Can't compare numbers without also taking into account minutes, pace, comp.

If you look at PER, which does a decent job of showing overall production, LeBron in 08-09 had a better reg season+ post-season PER than Jordan ever did. And he lead a pretty shitty Cavs team to 66 wins. Jordan never had a season where he showed such a pronounced impact on his team. There's no way that Cavs team is winning 66 games with Jordan. And their overall impact as defenders is very close as well. LeBron has become one of the best defenders in the league. He's getting to the point where you could call him a quasi-anchor on defense-that's how much impact he's making out there. The fact that the Heat are one of the top 2-3 defenses in the league with no real anchors/shot-blockers is proof of that. On D he's capable of guarding five positions, can switch everyone, capable of getting from one side of the floor to the other effortlessly due to his incredible speed, excellent at reading passing lanes, tremendous shot-blocker, excellent defensive re-bounder etc. There's not much separating the two in terms of defensive impact.

[CroqueMort]

"Does anyone 25 and over"
So people who were 12-13 when Michael made that last shot could actually appreciate the game of basketball?

You were too young to get it and appreciate greatness.

Im older now, and I have to admit that back then, I could not see the game like I see it today. And you know what? I still dont know that much.

P.S: My coach was a old man, and when we were all about Michael, he would come to us and say: "You haven't seen them,but The Big O and Wilt were the greatest to ever play the game".

[game385]

:roll:

Someone does not understand the internet.

Look at how you're trying to explain your lifestory to strangers on the internet. Why don't you do something better with your time? I don't care about your personal life at all. I could care less if you're a millionaire dating Megan Fox. That doesn't make you a credible person. I can sit here and say that I have my MBA and my CPA/CFA, but why on earth would I do that? I won't because I don't care about what people on the internet have to say. I know that they will disagree with me on many topics and I accept that. You, on the other hand, feel like you need to prove that your opinion is an absolute and it is the only correct one. And that's the issue.

The problem I have with your post and your thread in general is because you are questioning the ability of younger people to be objective. Look at how provoking your thread title and original post are. It can be translated to "Disagree with me? How old are you?" I knew when I clicked on this thread that it would be entertaining. You went on to call people "kids" because, well, it seems to be a legitimate response on your part. It was an extremely arrogant chose of words and it is only appropriate that it is met with hostility.

I'm surprised that, as educated as you claim to be, you don't seem to understand that explosive NBA superstars will continuously be compared to Jordan until he is ultimately surpassed. Either that or you just won't accept it. Some do indeed feel that LeBron and Kobe's talents are on par with MJ's. Some are saying it to troll. What's new? It's not just people on the internet. Primary sources working in the NBA (players, coaches, GMs) have taken similar stances. Why don't go you ask them how old they are?

Personally, I feel that MJ is definitely greater than Kobe and it would take a miracle for LeBron to eclipse him, yet you don't see me shoving that down everyone's throats. In addition to the arrogant tone, there has been a bunch of butt-hurt Rose trolls that have launched an anti-LeBron campaign recently. It is a "SMH" moment. They were comparing Rose to LeBron, which was (and still is) extremely laughable. They say he is the best and that he will send the Heat home early. When he failed to live up to their expectations, they bring up Jordan. SMH?

LOL... Ok, let me say this to end this little back and fourth. How are you talking trash to me about posting here when you are too? Have over 2x more posts than me? & have been a member 2 yrs longer? You don't have anything better to do w/ ur time?

This is a hobby guy... Lighten up. Talk basketball. You can even talk trash about my opinions, but don't make snap personal judgments about people you don't know especially when it's based on the premise that somehow by virtue of posting here, I'm automatically some "uneducated" loser when you post here to. What irony...

As far as this particular thread goes, like you said, such discussions drive this board.
Perhaps you didn't fully understand it to begin with anyway. Of course I know that the majority of the public believes Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time.

However, we're essentially seeing the first generation of young adults come of age that have never seen Michael Jordan play basketball and I was very simply trying to make the distinction that few people that have actually seen Michael Jordan play don't believe he's the greatest of all-time. Including mos individuals old enough to have seen those who came before and after MJ.

I even prefaced it by admitting that I may never fully appreciate the games great players that came before him b/c I never actually saw them play. You don't like my post, fine. But here's an idea, just skip it. There's a million others, but here's the catch 22. You only post in the ones that catch your attention.:roll:

[step_back]

Kobe is the only guy who has any kind of legitimate case right now. And he still isn't better then Jordan.

Wade and LeBron are lucky to have been drafted in 03 which is the softest generation in the NBA. They get free throws for a brush on the arm.

[STATUTORY]

Wow... that is a very specific, judgmental, and accusatory post that is so far off you wouldn't believe it. However, since you took it there, I guess I should "defend" myself.

I have a beautiful girlfriend who works nights, which is why I'm currently posting here instead of spending my evening w/ her. Most of my posts are typically made during the day, while I'm burning time on a lunch break.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I am in fact educated. I actually have 2 degrees... Just finished up my MBA and landed a pretty descent entry level position w/ a fortune 100 company. I don't start for another month so I have a bit more time on my hands for pointless discussions such as this one. A friend of mine actually introduced me to this site in undergrad. A friend who was pre-med btw and is now in medical school, so you have no idea who these other posters are.

No need to get into anymore details of my personal life, but I will say this. I post here for my own entertainment to burn a few mins spare time when I'm bored. I'd wager that such activity accounts for at least 50 percent of all internet usage...
Perhaps losers here, would like to assume that everyone else here is a loser too. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.

I don't know, nor do I care what the hell is wrong (or right) w/ your life, but you may not want to make such personal attacks attributing your own f*cked up existence and character flaws to people you don't know.

:roll: this is why old men should stay off the internet. getting all riled up and shit. don't forget ur arthiritis medication cuz u knees buckling pops

[bond10]

I'm 25. MJ is definitely the GOAT, unstoppable. Dude never freaking lost 1991 til the end...

However, the generations after were good too, I like watching Kobe, Lebron, D Wade, Vince Carter, Shaq, etc..

[DJmicah]

I am an 85 year old man who has seen Mikan, Cousy, Russell, Pettit, West, Wilt, Barry, Hondo, Oscar, Kareem, Walton, McAdoo, Bird, Magic and many other greats who were better than Jordan.

I can honestly say that Kobe, LeBron, Wade are better than Jordan. Also Kevin Durant, prime Tracy McGrady and prime Vince Carter are on Jordan's level.
your losing your memory old geezer

[OhNoTimNoSho]

I'm 12 and what is this

[xxxSuperStar]

Kobe is the only guy who has any kind of legitimate case right now. And he still isn't better then Jordan.

Wade and LeBron are lucky to have been drafted in 03 which is the softest generation in the NBA. They get free throws for a brush on the arm.

This is the answer. I have no doubt that if you'd replaced Jordan at same age w/ Kobe this year the Lakers would be winning a championship.

Jordan was a great, skilled talent, but what made him extremely special is that he got every drop of talent out of his teammates (among other things). He broke them down and then built them up so that they would have confidence in themselves, which you can see witnessed on the court when Jordan would then have the confidence to pass the ball to players like Kerr, Paxson, Bill Wennington etc. during the most important situations.

Teammates hated him at the time (and still do I'm sure) but he made them play their best (Scottie Pippen prime example; I'm highly doubtful he would have turned out to be the player he was without Jordan pushing him every single day).

[Jacks3]

Jordan wasn't in the league in his 15th year.

[TheMan]

I maybe wrong, but I typically assume that anyone who passionately believes and argues that Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, or anyone else is better than Michael Jordan is just some dumb ass kid who never saw MJ play.

How many grown ass men here (or women), who actually saw MJ play during the 80s and or 90s actually believe that one of these guys is better?


I'll admit that I may never fully appreciate the games of Magic, Bird, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson and a host of other players that played before my time. However, I respect their legacies and what I've learned from those who know first hand and came before me. (The difference is, even those older guys who watched Magic, Bird, Oscar, etc play in their prime... still admit that MJ was the greatest.

I watched prime MJ, Kobe and now LBJ and Wade and MJ is by far the best ever.

I would argue Magic is still better than LBJ right now...

[Heat007]

Can't compare numbers without also taking into account minutes, pace, comp.

If you look at PER, which does a decent job of showing overall production, LeBron in 08-09 had a better reg season+ post-season PER than Jordan ever did. And he lead a pretty shitty Cavs team to 66 wins. Jordan never had a season where he showed such a pronounced impact on his team. There's no way that Cavs team is winning 66 games with Jordan. And their overall impact as defenders is very close as well. LeBron has become one of the best defenders in the league. He's getting to the point where you could call him a quasi-anchor on defense-that's how much impact he's making out there. The fact that the Heat are one of the top 2-3 defenses in the league with no real anchors/shot-blockers is proof of that. On D he's capable of guarding five positions, can switch everyone, capable of getting from one side of the floor to the other effortlessly due to his incredible speed, excellent at reading passing lanes, tremendous shot-blocker, excellent defensive re-bounder etc. There's not much separating the two in terms of defensive impact.

The Heat were a Top 5 defense in each of the last 2 years with Wade as the anchor. He was fantastic defensively under Spoelstra and was all over the floor like a tazmanian devil in 08/09 and 09/10.

To be an anchor on a defense with that mediocre supporting cast the Heat and Wade had to work with, and still be a Top 5 defense shows how great Wade is defensively.. There is ZERO chance Kobe could elevate those Miami teams to be a Top 5 defense on his own like Wade did.

Guys like Beasley, arroyo and o'neal for example totally sucked on D during those years. But with Wade as the anchor he elevated everyone else to be a Top 5 defense. That's how good he was on D

And in fact, Wade had 2 seasons in 09 and 10 from a defensive synergy numbers perspective, that Kobe never in his career came close to having.. Not even once in his career did he match any of Wade's best 3 defensive seasons -- as their yearly defensive synergy numbers through their careers show.

[Crown&Coke]

I am 25

I got to see MJ at the tail end of his career (96-98) and based on his past-prime performance, I can not see how anyone post MJ can be called better than MJ, dude was just dominant when guards were never dominant. His fadeaway was the most prolific shot other than the Sky-Hook. He was smart and savy, gritty and tough. He embodied everything in bball (except for compassion for teammates) you would want.

MJ was in the game when there where big men who could dominate, yet there was never, ever any argument over who was the best player in the game from like 1990-1998. In a league were Shaq was routinely getting 28/13 he couldn't get there, The Dream was shimmying and shaking defenders out of their Starter socks he couldn't get a mention, that should tell you something.

Im a Lakers fan, but even if Kobe gets #6 he aint on MJ's level

Wade reminds me of MJ due to the way he plays, but he won't ever touch MJ's greatness. Lebron has a longer ways to go than either of these dudes, and I highly doubt he gets there.

[Jacks3]

They weren't top 5 in DRTG in 09 or 2010. Why u gotta lie?

And their solid defense those years had more to due with Spo and his good scheme than anything Wade did. To act like Wade made them a top-10 D alone is just stupid. I mean, SG's can never had that type of impact on defense. I suppose we can blame their mediocre offense (#20 in league) to Wade too.

lol!

Wade fans. SMH. Those Heat teams would have been just as good defensively with prime Kobe if not better. Especially the 00-06 versions.

[Poochymama]

Can't compare numbers without also taking into account minutes, pace, comp.

If you look at PER, which does a decent job of showing overall production, LeBron in 08-09 had a better reg season+ post-season PER than Jordan ever did.

:roll: :roll: :roll: at PER to say who had a better season. I've already said that Lebron's 08-09 post season is statistically better than anything Jordan did statistically for a post season, but having the best post season ever doesn't make you better than a player who beat you the other 90% of the time.

Also, if we were comparing Lebron to someone like Wilt/Kareem, then I would agree that Pace would make it hard to do, but all of Jordan's team's were among the slowest in the league and slower than some of the teams in the league today. Jordan in today's league would take just as many shots as he did in his day(19-22) and would probably get to the line a few more times a game because of the rule changes making it easier for perimeter players to get to the rim. If anything Jordan's scoring numbers would be higher in today's league. Also, Lebron on those Bulls teams would be forced to play within the system and his stat's wouldn't be nearly what they were in Cleveland. If anything, the stats are more biased in Lebron's favor because of play style/ rule changes than they are in Jordan's favor because of pace.



There's no way that Cavs team is winning 66 games with Jordan.

I agree with this. I've always said that Lebron getting 66 wins out of that team was truly amazing, but that doesn't make Lebron better than Jordan, just different. Jordan wouldn't have gotten 66 wins out of those Cavs teams, but Lebron wouldn't have gotten six championships out of those Bulls teams. Lebron's extremely ball dominant style is really good for making average to below average teams a lot better, but Jordan's off the ball, within the system type play is better for making already good teams, into championship caliber teams.



And their overall impact as defenders is very close as well.

This is not even close to being true, and it makes me wonder if you even saw Jordan play at all outside of his second three peat. Lebron might be a more versatile defender than Jordan, but for overall defensive impact, it's not even close. Jordan's man defense was infinitely greater than Lebron's, and his help defense was better as well. Jordan was the best perimeter defender in the league for 7 years straight. Lebron has had one season where he was maybe a top 3-4 defender in the league (this season), and one series (Bulls series) where he showed Jordan like defense. That being said, Lebron having one series of defense on Jordan's level does not put him on Jordan's level defensively.



The fact that the Heat are one of the top 2-3 defenses in the league with no real anchors/shot-blockers is proof of that.

Honestly, this has more to do with their coach than anything. The heat were a top defensive team last year as well.



On D he's capable of guarding five positions, can switch everyone, capable of getting from one side of the floor to the other effortlessly due to his incredible speed

This is one thing that Lebron really does having going for him defensively. He's kind of like the Rodman, though obviously not as good.


Also, don't get me wrong. It's not as if I don't think Lebron and Jordan are close, they are (not defensively though...yet), but prime for prime Jordan still comes out slightly ahead. Like I said earlier though, Lebron is still in his prime and could still come out on top, but so far, Jordan's numbers/defense are better.

[100grandman]

I also don't see why people take it personally or think it's some grievous insult to say someone isn't better than Michael Jordan..

It's BLASPHEMOUS:facepalm

[G.O.A.T.]

The Heat were a Top 5 defense in each of the last 2 years with Wade as the anchor. He was fantastic defensively under Spoelstra and was all over the floor like a tazmanian devil in 08/09 and 09/10.

To be an anchor on a defense with that mediocre supporting cast the Heat and Wade had to work with, and still be a Top 5 defense shows how great Wade is defensively.. There is ZERO chance Kobe could elevate those Miami teams to be a Top 5 defense on his own like Wade did.

Guys like Beasley, arroyo and o'neal for example totally sucked on D during those years. But with Wade as the anchor he elevated everyone else to be a Top 5 defense. That's how good he was on D

And in fact, Wade had 2 seasons in 09 and 10 from a defensive synergy numbers perspective, that Kobe never in his career came close to having.. Not even once in his career did he match any of Wade's best 3 defensive seasons -- as their yearly defensive synergy numbers through their careers show.

you lovin' kobe a little much there brah?

[OriginalNameGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adusCcba89o

no one in their right mind would pick them over MJ

[DaHeezy]

I've never seen a non-troll argue any of these guys over MJ. Not even on this forum.

They have. But no matter how good your reasoning, you are labelled as a troll regardless. There's no winning against Jordians.
Like I said, I'm 34, played multpile levels of basketball, have coached teams, and have been an avid fan of the NBA since I was 6. Does this criteria matter if I did say I think Kobe is better than Jordan? No. Becuae Jordians are close minded to their beliefs and believe it's definitve.
I have no doubt in my mind a Jordian like let's say sinjackal came in and asked me to debate it right now because he's so butthurt.

[CelticBaller]

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/nextologyJordan.jpg
all failed
90s>>>> this era gtfo you lil kids

[Jasper]

Whether you are old or young , we look for comparisons of past players to see current players qualities as well as atributes on the floor , style and game.
For instance I had seen Clyde Frazier play , and the uncanny similarities of D-Will and Frazier are so very close in many phases of the game.

Kobe , Dwade don't hold a candle to MJ and never will... but they are great players.

Lebron is a different player , and MJ has enough personal as well as team accomplishments that puts him on a stage all of his own. (just like how he owned any team that played against him in his prime)

Lebron could establish all of the credentials that MJ has , ,, but it will be difficult.
He could become a top 5 SF of all time in a few years.

MJ is at the top , and 10 years from now we may reconsider that , but 10 years from now.

[Stuckey]

kobe, no

wade, no

Lebron, has a tiny chance to be close

[derb2k2]

kobe came up short

Wade can still get close but will never touch Michael imo

Lebron might get somewhat close but will never supersede his airness.

[Ne 1]

90s>>>> this era gtfo you lil kids

80s>>>>>>>>>90s

[Boston C's]

Guys dont bother responding to kobe24clutch or ne1 w.e his name is... they are just trolling sayin tony allen or pierce or anyone was better then jordan. Firstly the 90's era was better then todays era. It was much tougher to score back then and even players like pierce ray allen and miller have said it is a lot easier to score today then it was back then. Im 21 and my vote doesnt count for much but I remember the last 2 yrs of jordans championship 3 peat run and I can say from that I havent seen anyone come close to his airness in terms of talent and determination. Kobe is the closest but he will never be MJ, wade is already nearly 30 and is injury prone, and lebron teaming up with wade because it would take less pressure off him just shows that he doesnt have the drive like M.J. I think if anything we should be comparing past players more then todays players to m.j

[Kobe24Clutch]

80s>>>>>>>>>90s
:no: Nobody want's to see grown men in tiny shorts.:lol

[Kobe24Clutch]

Ni99as be getting salty anytime you say something bad about MJ. :lol Jordan today = Poor man's Tony Allen.

[Mrofir]

Ni99as be getting salty anytime you say something bad about MJ. :lol Jordan today = Poor man's Tony Allen.


u mad?

[Jacks3]

but prime for prime Jordan still comes out slightly ahead. Like I said earlier though, Lebron is still in his prime and could still come out on top, but so far, Jordan's numbers/defense are better.
Well at least you're a reasonable Jordan fan. Unlike those clowns who swear that LBJ isn't even close. SMH.

[BigBalla44]

They have. But no matter how good your reasoning, you are labelled as a troll regardless. There's no winning against Jordians.
Like I said, I'm 34, played multpile levels of basketball, have coached teams, and have been an avid fan of the NBA since I was 6. Does this criteria matter if I did say I think Kobe is better than Jordan? No. Becuae Jordians are close minded to their beliefs and believe it's definitve.
I have no doubt in my mind a Jordian like let's say sinjackal came in and asked me to debate it right now because he's so butthurt.

See, that's the problem. Your sense of self is tied so much to your favorite player, that just because someone doesnt agree with you, you label MJ fans are cultists. Youre such a fu.cking joke, its ridiculous. Let go of your ego brah.

It's called generalizing and butthurt losers like yourself are guilty of it just as much as any other stan (MJ included). What about people who believe MJ is the GOAT not because of bias or marketing or whatever reasoning you idiots like to give, but rather of our own objectivity? Are we part of the MJ cult as well? And of course we will debate it because that's what we believe and this is a forum after all.

I cant speak for others, but if someone comes along that's better than MJ, I will celebrate it. Unfortunately for you, many people believe Kobe is not the one and that has to drive you crazy. You and your ilk will forever be mad. So sad.

[amfirst]

I'm 28 and MJ is the best. Kobe is the closest in him prime. LeBron has a chance to catch up, but last season and this season he should close the gap, if not he will not get any better. Players number one prime year is usual at 26.

[AlphaWolf24]

They have. But no matter how good your reasoning, you are labelled as a troll regardless. There's no winning against Jordians.
Like I said, I'm 34, played multpile levels of basketball, have coached teams, and have been an avid fan of the NBA since I was 6. Does this criteria matter if I did say I think Kobe is better than Jordan? No. Becuae Jordians are close minded to their beliefs and believe it's definitve.
I have no doubt in my mind a Jordian like let's say sinjackal came in and asked me to debate it right now because he's so butthurt.


[B]QFT

I'm 37..I've always said Magic is the best player I ever seen....Give Magic a random group of players and he can make them better then Jordan with a random group.

Magic Johnson was better then Jordan at impacting his team and getting the most out of every player.

Also...anyone who doesn't think Kobe at 32 is on the same pace as MJ as 32 is a MJ stan..or "Jordain":lol Both are similiar players in nearly exactly similiar roles..

[thomaspynchon]

Kobe is pretty damn close.

But lefraud and wade are no where near that level and never will be.

[DaHeezy]

See, that's the problem. Your sense of self is tied so much to your favorite player, that just because someone doesnt agree with you, you label MJ fans are cultists. Youre such a fu.cking joke, its ridiculous. Let go of your ego brah.

It's called generalizing and butthurt losers like yourself are guilty of it just as much as any other stan (MJ included). What about people who believe MJ is the GOAT not because of bias or marketing or whatever reasoning you idiots like to give, but rather of our own objectivity? Are we part of the MJ cult as well? And of course we will debate it because that's what we believe and this is a forum after all.

I cant speak for others, but if someone comes along that's better than MJ, I will celebrate it. Unfortunately for you, many people believe Kobe is not the one and that has to drive you crazy. You and your ilk will forever be mad. So sad.

Wait to prove my point.

I've never have had a problem with people who stand behind Jordan as the best ever. I do however don't appreciate being flogged (case in point your post) because you can put together a reasonable case into why a guy like Kobe COULD be better (Hence the term Jordian).

Kobe IS NOT my favorite player. But does he have a case to be better than Jordan? Of course. BASKETBALL IS SUBJECTIVE buddy. But people like you can't accept reasonable argument, but resort to insults, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Kobe. They do exactly what you do and try to flip the argument to make the poster look delusional and attack without substance, but with hatred.

You are why basketball boards suck

[KG215]

QFT

Also...anyone who doesn't think Kobe at 32 is on the same pace as MJ as 32 is a MJ stan..or "Jordain":lol Both are similiar players in nearly exactly similiar roles..

They might sort of be on the same pace but they aren't the same player at 32. If you're going to use only their ages, then their "32 years old seasons" don't even really compare.


Michael Jordan at age 32
30.4 ppg
6.6 rpg
4.3 apg
2.2 spg
0.5 bpg
2.4 tovpg
49.5% FG
42.7% 3P
83.4% FT
72-10 (15-3), NBA Champs


Kobe Bryant at age 32
25.3 ppg
5.1 rpg
4.7 apg
1.2 spg
0.1 bpg
3.0 tovpg
45.1% FG
32.3% 3P
82.8% FT
57-25 (4-6), swept in the 2nd round


Now, I don't exactly know what you meant by them both being similar players in nearly exactly similar roles at age 32, but Jordan's season at 32 years old completely blows Kobe's season at 32 years old completely out of the water.

Yes, they do have similar roles on their teams and have similar games. But, just as at any other point in Kobe's career, he does not compare to Jordan at the same point in his career.

[AlphaWolf24]

They might sort of be on the same pace but they aren't the same player at 32. If you're going to use only their ages, then their "32 years old seasons" don't even really compare.


Michael Jordan at age 32
30.4 ppg
6.6 rpg
4.3 apg
2.2 spg
0.5 bpg
2.4 tovpg
49.5% FG
42.7% 3P
83.4% FT
72-10 (15-3), NBA Champs


Kobe Bryant at age 32
25.3 ppg
5.1 rpg
4.7 apg
1.2 spg
0.1 bpg
3.0 tovpg
45.1% FG
32.3% 3P
82.8% FT
57-25 (4-6), swept in the 2nd round


Now, I don't exactly know what you meant by them both being similar players in nearly exactly similar roles at age 32, but Jordan's season at 32 years old completely blows Kobe's season at 32 years old completely out of the water.

Yes, they do have similar roles on their teams and have similar games. But, just as at any other point in Kobe's career, he does not compare to Jordan at the same point in his career.


sure that's a great way to look at it...even at that they very similar...

an even better way to look at it is from 21 - 32 When Kobe was in nearly the exact same role as MJ (he barely played at ages 18 - 20)

From ages 21 - 32 MJ = 31.3PPG 6REB 5AST...Kobe = 28.5 PPG 6REB 5AST
7NBA Finals/4NBA Finals...All NBA / Defense nearly Identical , allstar games nearly Identical....nearly exact same roles for over a decade (1rst option in crunchtime/lockdown perimeter defender)

over a decade (from ages 21 - 32) as starters they are nearly identical ....if you do factor in Kobe as a 18 year old playing 11 minutes a game...then yes you can look at it your view...i would rather look at it as both players in a similiar role for over 10 years.

[raptorfan_dr07]

I do however don't appreciate being flogged (case in point your post) because you can put together a reasonable case into why a guy like Kobe COULD be better (Hence the term Jordian).

Kobe IS NOT my favorite player. But does he have a case to be better than Jordan? Of course. BASKETBALL IS SUBJECTIVE buddy. But people like you can't accept reasonable argument, but resort to insults, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Kobe. They do exactly what you do and try to flip the argument to make the poster look delusional and attack without substance, but with hatred.


Uh, no you CANNOT. There is literally NO reasonable case for Kobe to be better NONE NADA NOTHING ZIP. THAT is what you idiots cannot comprehend. Notice how nobody gets upset when players like Bill Russell or Kareem Abdul Jabbar are mentioned in the same breath as Jordan. That's because those guys ARE legit GOAT candidates, and an argument CAN be made for them to be better than Jordan.

Kobe's numbers PALE in comparison to Jordan. His impact on the game, as well as his performances in the playoffs, and Finals specifically, fall way short of Jordan's. Kobe put up underwhelming numbers DESPITE having a 7'1 300+ pound monster who drew most of the defensive attention. His career shooting percentage in the Finals is around 40 f*cking percent for christ sakes! This is a guy who has ran teammates out of town, been called "uncoachable" by Jordan's own coach, quit on his team in the playoffs(Game 7 no less), etc. Despite what some retarded morons say, Kobe has NEVER even proven to be better than Shaq or Duncan the past decade, let alone Jordan. Yeah the argument for GOAT is subjective, but that's when it's narrowed down to the players who HAVE a legitimate argument. Someone like Kobe having a case for GOAT or being better than Jordan is flat out ridiculous and utter bullsh*t. The ONLY thing Kobe does better than Jordan on the basketball court, is freezing his own teammates out of the offense.


Also...anyone who doesn't think Kobe at 32 is on the same pace as MJ as 32 is a MJ stan..or "Jordain":lol Both are similiar players in nearly exactly similiar roles..

Yeah cause at 32/33 Jordan got swept by an inferior team despite his team being the OVERWHELMING favorites WITH home court, and disappeared(as usual) in the 4th quarters while being outperformed by an inferior player. Oh wait, that was Kobe.


an even better way to look at it is from 21 - 32 When Kobe was in nearly the exact same role as MJ (he barely played at ages 18 - 20)


Uh, no, Kobe's role with the 3peat Lakers was NOT the same as Jordan, not even close. Kobe was a second fiddle piggybacking arguably the most dominant force in NBA history. Jordan, on the contrary, was putting up some of the greatest Finals performances of all time during the Bulls first 3peat.

Damn, with these Kobe>>Jordan, Kobe>>Bird topics, you can tell that Dirk and the Mavs @$$ raping the Lakers and shoving a broom up Kobe's overrated @$$ really f*cked with these guys heads. I'd hate to see what they would do if Lebron/Wade get rings this year.

[Ne 1]

Kobe IS NOT my favorite player. But does he have a case to be better than Jordan? Of course. BASKETBALL IS SUBJECTIVE buddy. But people like you can't accept reasonable argument, but resort to insults, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Kobe. They do exactly what you do and try to flip the argument to make the poster look delusional and attack without substance, but with hatred.

Good post.

I think Kobe compares, but a lot of people on this site don't feel that way. A lot of that is sentimental with Jordan. He was advertised so much and the media loved him so much. He was like a member of the family back in the 90s- no matter where you lived in the world (you even had some Knicks fans who loved him). A lot of it is also hatred for Kobe Bryant. He came so soon challenging Jordan. His game resembled Jordan so much. His build. Then the whole sexual assault accusations and Shaq leaving LA. People grew to hate Bryant.

Ultimately, as a player, Kobe really is comparable to Jordan. Is he as good? There is actually no way to truly know. There are so many variables to point to, it is just so hard to get a fair evaluation especially when there is so much emotion involved with both players. Jordan has the better resume with stats and accomplishments, but Kobe is no slouch. He is an all-time great and it is really a testament to his greatness that we must compare him to Jordan to downgrade him. Nobody else compares Magic to MJ only for it to be a black mark to Magic that he wasn't better and so on and so forth. As I said, a lot of that is the double standards and hatred towards Bryant. In the end, lets just look at Kobe for what he is and that is an all-time great basketball player.

[Nevaeh]

Originally Posted By:Ne 1:

Good post.

I think Kobe compares, but a lot of people on this site don't feel that way. A lot of that is sentimental with Jordan. He was advertised so much and the media loved him so much. He was like a member of the family back in the 90s- no matter where you lived in the world (you even had some Knicks fans who loved him). A lot of it is also hatred for Kobe Bryant. He came so soon challenging Jordan. His game resembled Jordan so much. His build. Then the whole sexual assault accusations and Shaq leaving LA. People grew to hate Bryant.

Funny how Jordan's the "Gold Standard" you compare your favorite player to, considering he's only Tony Allen....Or was that Dominique Wilkins with a Bald Head? :oldlol:


Ultimately, as a player, Kobe really is comparable to Jordan. Is he as good? There is actually no way to truly know. There are so many variables to point to, it is just so hard to get a fair evaluation especially when there is so much emotion involved with both players.

And those variables have been covered for years, but one simple one will always stand out, and it's a pretty recent one; Kobe's the only leader of a Phil Jackson coached team to get swept. Not even a Scottie Pippen lead team suffered that kind of humiliation (won't even mention the "30 plus point" ass whoopings Kobe's teams have recieved on his watch as well).


Jordan has the better resume with stats and accomplishments, but Kobe is no slouch. He is an all-time great and it is really a testament to his greatness that we must compare him to Jordan to downgrade him.

Again, Jordan's YOUR "Gold Standard" for determining Kobe's "Greatness". If Kobe's your "be all" as a Player, why bring up "Tony Allen" all the time?


Nobody else compares Magic to MJ only for it to be a black mark to Magic that he wasn't better and so on and so forth. As I said, a lot of that is the double standards and hatred towards Bryant. In the end, lets just look at Kobe for what he is and that is an all-time great basketball player.

And nobody has a problem with that, until you choose to insult people's intelligence with your "pseudo intellectual" trolling, which then causes you to get served like Rodney King after a high speed chase.

You have the gift NE1, you have the Magic Eye, but you have know how to get in, troll, and get out fast. When you have a vested interest attached to your trolls, it causes you to break out "Long Cat" like a maniac, which then negates a full month's worth of pretty decent trolls on your resume. But you're getting there son.....you getting there ..................my n!gga. :cheers:

[DaHeezy]

Uh, no you CANNOT. There is literally NO reasonable case for Kobe to be better NONE NADA NOTHING ZIP. THAT is what you idiots cannot comprehend. Notice how nobody gets upset when players like Bill Russell or Kareem Abdul Jabbar are mentioned in the same breath as Jordan. That's because those guys ARE legit GOAT candidates, and an argument CAN be made for them to be better than Jordan.

Kobe's numbers PALE in comparison to Jordan. His impact on the game, as well as his performances in the playoffs, and Finals specifically, fall way short of Jordan's. Kobe put up underwhelming numbers DESPITE having a 7'1 300+ pound monster who drew most of the defensive attention. His career shooting percentage in the Finals is around 40 f*cking percent for christ sakes! This is a guy who has ran teammates out of town, been called "uncoachable" by Jordan's own coach, quit on his team in the playoffs(Game 7 no less), etc. Despite what some retarded morons say, Kobe has NEVER even proven to be better than Shaq or Duncan the past decade, let alone Jordan. Yeah the argument for GOAT is subjective, but that's when it's narrowed down to the players who HAVE a legitimate argument. Someone like Kobe having a case for GOAT or being better than Jordan is flat out ridiculous and utter bullsh*t. The ONLY thing Kobe does better than Jordan on the basketball court, is freezing his own teammates out of the offense.




Yet another Jordian who won't let people express their opinion without insulting them.
One more time: BASKETBALL IS SUBJECTIVE. Kobe can make a case he's better than Jordan if it's argued correctly.

People like me? When have I ever stated my opinion on this matter. You're a tool. You're another one who makes these basketball boards terrible



Uh, no you CANNOT. There is literally NO reasonable case for Kobe to be better NONE NADA NOTHING ZIP

Yet another close minded Jordian statement.

NOTHING IS DEFINITIVE in basketball. Deal with it. Wait you're a Jordian, you can't.

[kumquat]

Kobe is pretty damn close.

But lefraud and wade are no where near that level and never will be.

Kobe is a pale immitation.

[cavsfanatic]

I'm 28 and I say no. Kobe quit on his team in a game 7 then cried to get traded. Lebron quit last season on his team then left. Wade not even top 5 shooting guard of all time

[Kellogs4toniee]

Yet another Jordian who won't let people express their opinion without insulting them.
One more time: BASKETBALL IS SUBJECTIVE. Kobe can make a case he's better than Jordan if it's argued correctly.

People like me? When have I ever stated my opinion on this matter. You're a tool. You're another one who makes these basketball boards terrible




Yet another close minded Jordian statement.

NOTHING IS DEFINITIVE in basketball. Deal with it. Wait you're a Jordian, you can't.


Quit using the "Jordian" phrase as your only basis for defense. Everything he said was the truth. Insulting the poster? That's between him and the poster, so I'm not even going to get into that. But as for the info and scenarios he posted? All that was fact. You can pin-point certain aspects, in which case you can with credibility say things like "Kobe had better range", but there is no legit argument for Kobe being the better player.

If someone asked me why Jordan is better then Kobe, this is what I would say:

Years as undisputed leader : Jordan
Statistically : Jordan
Accolades : Jordan
Playoffs : Jordan

If we were to switch it around and I asked you why Kobe is better... please enlighten me on what you would say. He had a 81 point game? Great, he was a great scorer.

Kobe is an all-time great, and I do have him at the top of the top 10 list. His play style is very similar to Jordans, and they both out-played, won, and out-lived there peers during there generation.

It's just getting really annoying when the only defense these days when we give numerical and relative evidence is by calling us "Jordians". Or the "nothing is definite" excuse. Nothing is definite? So your saying Kareem Abdul Jabbar is not definitely a better basketball player than Eddy Curry? A little extreme of course, but you get the idea.

[atljonesbro]

YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ANYONE CAN EVEN COME CLOSE TO JORDAN. YOUR INSTANTLY STUPID.

Most people saying no one comes close to Jordan are either:

A. People with way to much nostalgia.

B. People who don't want to be insulted by other people for saying another player could be better. Basically peer pressure and the fact they think it makes them sound more intelligent.

C. Don't want to let go of the past and want to make their generation seem like it was so amazing and Jordan dropped 95ppg and no one in todays era even sniffs it.

Kobe was close to Jordan. LeBron has a chance to surpass Jordan. Only one of the 3 above would deny that.

[Poochymama]

Quit using the "Jordian" phrase as your only basis for defense. Everything he said was the truth. Insulting the poster? That's between him and the poster, so I'm not even going to get into that. But as for the info and scenarios he posted? All that was fact. You can pin-point certain aspects, in which case you can with credibility say things like "Kobe had better range", but there is no legit argument for Kobe being the better player.

If someone asked me why Jordan is better then Kobe, this is what I would say:

Years as undisputed leader : Jordan
Statistically : Jordan
Accolades : Jordan
Playoffs : Jordan

If we were to switch it around and I asked you why Kobe is better... please enlighten me on what you would say. He had a 81 point game? Great, he was a great scorer.

Kobe is an all-time great, and I do have him at the top of the top 10 list. His play style is very similar to Jordans, and they both out-played, won, and out-lived there peers during there generation.

It's just getting really annoying when the only defense these days when we give numerical and relative evidence is by calling us "Jordians". Or the "nothing is definite" excuse. Nothing is definite? So your saying Kareem Abdul Jabbar is not definitely a better basketball player than Eddy Curry? A little extreme of course, but you get the idea.

This...while certainly not definitive, Jordan being better thank Kobe is about as close to fact as an opinion can be. That's why no one gets up in arms when someone says Bill Russell or Kareem are better than MJ, because MJ being better than those two guys is much less definitive and much more arguable. MJ vs Kobe is a relatively lop sided argument.

It's not that Jordan fans refuse to acknowledge that anyone is better than Jordan, I'd love for someone to come along and be better than Jordan, and there are already a few player who might be (Kareem, Russell, Wilt), but Kobe is not that guy.

[Kellogs4toniee]

This...while certainly not definitive, Jordan being better thank Kobe is about as close to fact as an opinion can be. That's why no one gets up in arms when someone says Bill Russell or Kareem are better than MJ, because MJ being better than those two guys is much less definitive and much more arguable. MJ vs Kobe is a relatively lop sided argument.

It's not that Jordan fans refuse to acknowledge that anyone is better than Jordan, I'd love for someone to come along and be better than Jordan, and there are already a few player who might be (Kareem, Russell, Wilt), but Kobe is not that guy.


Great point. To add onto that, no legit fan of the game of basketball is ever going to say : "Jordan blows Kobe out of the water by a mile." It's just that players like Kareem have less of a distance to cover when trying to argue there case as G.O.A.T.

Kobe supporters have stated multiple times that Kobe is as close to Jordan as can be BOTH in terms of play-style as well as careers. So if there such similar players, the only thing you can go on when comparing them is numbers and accolades. It's like saying player A and B have the same moves, same play-style, same physicality. All the intangibles like mental preparation cancel each other out because of these same traits. Only way to determine who's better is by the numbers. And in terms of those factors, Jordan takes it.

[DaHeezy]

Quit using the "Jordian" phrase as your only basis for defense. Everything he said was the truth. Insulting the poster? That's between him and the poster, so I'm not even going to get into that. But as for the info and scenarios he posted? All that was fact. You can pin-point certain aspects, in which case you can with credibility say things like "Kobe had better range", but there is no legit argument for Kobe being the better player.

If someone asked me why Jordan is better then Kobe, this is what I would say:

Years as undisputed leader : Jordan
Statistically : Jordan
Accolades : Jordan
Playoffs : Jordan

If we were to switch it around and I asked you why Kobe is better... please enlighten me on what you would say. He had a 81 point game? Great, he was a great scorer.

Kobe is an all-time great, and I do have him at the top of the top 10 list. His play style is very similar to Jordans, and they both out-played, won, and out-lived there peers during there generation.

It's just getting really annoying when the only defense these days when we give numerical and relative evidence is by calling us "Jordians". Or the "nothing is definite" excuse. Nothing is definite? So your saying Kareem Abdul Jabbar is not definitely a better basketball player than Eddy Curry? A little extreme of course, but you get the idea.


Read closely:
I don't have a problem with people who regard Jordan as the greatest.

The "Jordians" like yourself I refer too are the ones who absloutlely reufse to here any contridiction to that fact especially if it comes to Kobe.

Don't be an idiot and use KAJ to Curry, that's obviously idiotic. Very poor example.

The gap between Jordan and Kobe is obviously much closer and debatable. And here's where I finally reason why I say that it's a debatable and non-definitive subject. When it comes to TEAM sports and arguing about 2 players with similar accolades, to debate in who's better the one thing we don't neccessarily take into account is: INTANGIBLES.

What era did he play in? Who were his teammates? Who was his greatest competition? If he were on another team could he garner the same success? Replace him with another player and what type of success would his teams have? Plus dozens of other intangibles that don't require statisitcs or accolades.

Those are definately aspects to give any argument to Kobe, or any other player for that matter when debating if he's better than Jordan.


And for you, plus any other idiot who claims I feel Kobe is better than Jordan in this thread, name one time in this thread where I've ACTUALLY said Kobe was better than Jordan? An open minded Jordan fan will see I haven't one. A dumb-a$$ Jordian like yourself will claim I did.

[DaHeezy]

Great point. To add onto that, no legit fan of the game of basketball is ever going to say : "Jordan blows Kobe out of the water by a mile." It's just that players like Kareem have less of a distance to cover when trying to argue there case as G.O.A.T.

Kobe supporters have stated multiple times that Kobe is as close to Jordan as can be BOTH in terms of play-style as well as careers. So if there such similar players, the only thing you can go on when comparing them is numbers and accolades. It's like saying player A and B have the same moves, same play-style, same physicality. All the intangibles like mental preparation cancel each other out because of these same traits. Only way to determine who's better is by the numbers. And in terms of those factors, Jordan takes it.

Just read this now, but in terms of how you use intagibles I think you have it all backwards. You can't define a player as greatest in a team sport by accolades because of what it is, a TEAM sport. That's where you can debate player versus player after the fact is you take intangibles after accolades. That's what makes sports so intruiging is because these issues can be debated. Where I think you've gone wrong in your plight is that you refuse to have it debated. That makes you a stan.

Sorry to say it again but in this case scenario, sports is subjective, if you can actually accept this, maybe you'll enjoy sports more, or people may enjoy being around you.

[Soothing Layup]

Michael Jordan
- 10x total top 3 MVP finalist
- 5x time MVP
- 32,292 career points
- 30.1 Career ppg avg
- 30/6/5 career averages
- 6x time champion
- 6x time finals MVP
- 1x NCAA champion
- 3x All-star game MVP
- 10x All-NBA first team
- 1x DPOY
- 9x All-NBA Defensive team
- Rookie of the year
- 14x NBA all-star
- Most Steals in one half
- Averaged 41.0 ppg in the Finals.
- 10x NBA scoring titles

Years played: 15


Kobe Bryant
- 27,868
- 25/5/5 career avgs
- 5x champion
- 2x finals MVP
- 1x MVP
- x13 NBA-all star
- 9x All NBA-all star
- 2x Scoring titles
- 2x NBA-second team
- 9x First all defensive team
- 4x All-star game mvp
- All-rooke Second team

Years played: 15

LBJ
-2x Finals Appearance
-2x NBA MVP
-17,362 career points
- 28/7/7 career avgs
- Rookie of the year
- 7x NBA all star
- 5x All-nba first team
- 3x All defensive first team
- NBA rookie first team
- 2x NBA all star game
- 1x Scoring title

Years played: 8

[CelticBaller]

Ni99as be getting salty anytime you say something bad about MJ. :lol Jordan today = Poor man's Tony Allen.
tony allen can't shoot for shit, MJ had a shot. and a tony allen with an offensive game would be the best player in the league right now

[Ne 1]

Don't be an idiot and use KAJ to Curry, that's obviously idiotic. Very poor example.

Yeah that's laughable and just ignorant. I really don't see how comparing Kobe to Jordan is any different from the Magic-Bird debates or Wilt-Russell debates. The one difference obviously is that Jordan and Kobe weren't rivals like the guys I mentioned.

People need to just realize that everything in sports is subjective and nothing will ever be unanimous. Honestly the difference between great players isn't as enormous as people make it out to be.

[DaHeezy]

Yeah that's laughable and just ignorant. I really don't see how comparing Kobe to Jordan is any different from the Magic-Bird debates or Wilt-Russell debates. The one difference obviously is that Jordan and Kobe weren't rivals like the guys I mentioned.

People need to just realize that everything in sports is subjective and nothing will ever be unanimous. Honestly the difference between great players isn't as enormous as people make it out to be.

Exactly. Why is it other player comparisons are acceptable but a Jordan/Kobe one isn't? That's why I poke fun at "Jordians" is because this is the group of people who are extremely close minded and ignorant. Following all the traits I classify Jordians under. There are great Jordan fans out there, these people ruin it for them.

[Smoke117]

Kobe doesn't come close to Jordan for the most part because of defense alone. He can have all the (undeserved) 1st team nods they want to give him, but Jordan is a pretty easily an all time great defensive player, where as Kobe can be defined simply as a good defensive player. As far as who is GREATER offensively...well they have comparable skills but greatness is defined by what you do with those skills and Jordan pretty much simply did everything better.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Read closely:
I don't have a problem with people who regard Jordan as the greatest.

The "Jordians" like yourself I refer too are the ones who absloutlely reufse to here any contridiction to that fact especially if it comes to Kobe.

Don't be an idiot and use KAJ to Curry, that's obviously idiotic. Very poor example.

The gap between Jordan and Kobe is obviously much closer and debatable. And here's where I finally reason why I say that it's a debatable and non-definitive subject. When it comes to TEAM sports and arguing about 2 players with similar accolades, to debate in who's better the one thing we don't neccessarily take into account is: INTANGIBLES.

What era did he play in? Who were his teammates? Who was his greatest competition? If he were on another team could he garner the same success? Replace him with another player and what type of success would his teams have? Plus dozens of other intangibles that don't require statisitcs or accolades.

Those are definately aspects to give any argument to Kobe, or any other player for that matter when debating if he's better than Jordan.


And for you, plus any other idiot who claims I feel Kobe is better than Jordan in this thread, name one time in this thread where I've ACTUALLY said Kobe was better than Jordan? An open minded Jordan fan will see I haven't one. A dumb-a$$ Jordian like yourself will claim I did.

In this case, all the intangibles your speaking of aren't intangibles... there called excuses. If you were talking about effort, hard-work, mental preparation... that would make sense from an intangible standpoint. But to ask questions like : what era did he play in, who were his teammates, would he have same success if he was on a different team. Are you kidding me? Is that truly the only path one can go on now for arguments sake?

First of all, we're not talking about comparing them to a player way back, for example the 60's, where it actually makes sense to bring up the era aspect.

Second of all, I'm still in shock over would he have the same success if he was on different teams as an argument. What about the thousands of other players in NBA history. Where would they rank all time if they were on different teams? See how ridiculous it is to use that as an argument? When you use something so conceptual, theoretical, and generalized like that as your argument, your going no-where. Anything that can potentially create a scenario where you ask : "what if Pippen was on another team and Jerry West from the 60's era joined Jordan and Kobe had 1970's Kareem instead of Shaq, would Kobe have potentially been better?" is just arbitrary.

Do you think your "intangibles" above answer why Kobe has never put up a finals performance even close to Jordan's?

I feel like your main case is to defend the right to argue. No duh sherlock. Go ahead and argue all you want, there's obviously no way we can control that.

There's the right to argue, and then there's what is debatable. You can be looking at an apple, and I could say "that's not an apple. What if you had some mental disease where you hallucinate things." I have my right to say that, but that doesn't make the topic debatable. As of right now there is no sensible debate for Kobe being better then Jordan. Not offensively, not defensively.

[atljonesbro]

In this case, all the intangibles your speaking of aren't intangibles... there called excuses. If you were talking about effort, hard-work, mental preparation... that would make sense from an intangible standpoint. But to ask questions like : what era did he play in, who were his teammates, would he have same success if he was on a different team. Are you kidding me? Is that truly the only path one can go on now for arguments sake?

First of all, we're not talking about comparing them to a player way back, for example the 60's, where it actually makes sense to bring up the era aspect.

Second of all, I'm still in shock over would he have the same success if he was on different teams as an argument. What about the thousands of other players in NBA history. Where would they rank all time if they were on different teams? See how ridiculous it is to use that as an argument? When you use something so conceptual, theoretical, and generalized like that as your argument, your going no-where. Anything that can potentially create a scenario where you ask : "what if Pippen was on another team and Jerry West from the 60's era joined Jordan and Kobe had 1970's Kareem instead of Shaq, would Kobe have potentially been better?" is just arbitrary.

Do you think your "intangibles" above answer why Kobe has never put up a finals performance even close to Jordan's?

I feel like your main case is to defend the right to argue. No duh sherlock. Go ahead and argue all you want, there's obviously no way we can control that.

There's the right to argue, and then there's what is debatable. You can be looking at an apple, and I could say "that's not an apple. What if you had some mental disease where you hallucinate things." I have my right to say that, but that doesn't make the topic debatable. As of right now there is no sensible debate for Kobe being better then Jordan. Not offensively, not defensively.
Where the hell did he say Kobe was better than Jordan? No where. Please stop. If you can't see that Kobe was actually not as far off to Jordan as people make it seem, your so very delusional on nostalgia it's ridiculous.

[U'veBeenKazaaM]

Where the hell did he say Kobe was better than Jordan? No where. Please stop. If you can't see that Kobe was actually not as far off to Jordan as people make it seem, your so very delusional on nostalgia it's ridiculous.

He's not saying someone said Kobe was better, he's saying there is no reasonable debate for Kobe being a better player than Jordan without going into the hypothetical extremes.

[Ne 1]

Exactly. Why is it other player comparisons are acceptable but a Jordan/Kobe one isn't? That's why I poke fun at "Jordians" is because this is the group of people who are extremely close minded and ignorant. Following all the traits I classify Jordians under. There are great Jordan fans out there, these people ruin it for them.

Like I said earlier, a lot of that is sentimental with Jordan. He was advertised so much and the media loved him so much. He was like a member of the family back in the 90s- no matter where you lived in the world (you even had some Knicks fans who loved him). A lot of it is also hatred for Kobe Bryant. He came so soon challenging Jordan. His game resembled Jordan so much. His build. Then the whole sexual assault accusations and Shaq leaving LA. People grew to hate Bryant.

The thing that get's to me is when you ask Kobe haters to talk about Bryant the first thing they usually say is "He's not Michael Jordan!" What exactly does that mean? Many people regard Jordan as the greatest basketball player ever - is not being better than him a bad thing? I wonder if I brought a 8'3

[Nevaeh]

This...while certainly not definitive, Jordan being better thank Kobe is about as close to fact as an opinion can be. That's why no one gets up in arms when someone says Bill Russell or Kareem are better than MJ, because MJ being better than those two guys is much less definitive and much more arguable. MJ vs Kobe is a relatively lop sided argument.

[/LIST]

And what's funny is that the arguments for Jordan being the better player don't even need to be far reaching, or structured based on a specific set of years or circumstances. For example:

Jordan never lost in the NBA Finals as the leader of his team in his 6 Finals appearances.

Kobe has lost in the NBA Finals as both the best, and the second best player on his team in his 7 Finals appearances.

Now that right there is a simple fact that I didn't even have to read up on, nor think about too deeply. A lot of things in life can be "subjective" but basic facts aren't one of them.

So how exactly does the above fact make someone a "Jordian"?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe is about 90% as good/impactful as Jordan prime vs. prime, maybe a shade under 90% peak vs. peak (2006/2007 Kobe vs. 1990-'91 Jordan). Peak MJ was a fukcing monster - Kobe can't see him.

[Balla_Status]

25? Gotta be older that that to make this comparison. I watched Jordan play but I don't really remember specifically how he played. I was still a kid.

[Ne 1]

And what's funny is that the arguments for Jordan being the better player don't even need to be far reaching, or structured based on a specific set of years or circumstances. For example:

Jordan never lost in the NBA Finals as the leader of his team in his 6 Finals appearances.

Kobe has lost in the NBA Finals as both the best, and the second best player on his team in his 7 Finals appearances.

Now that right there is a simple fact that I didn't even have to read up on, nor think about too deeply. A lot of things in life can be "subjective" but basic facts aren't one of them.

So how exactly does the above fact make someone a "Jordian"?

:oldlol: @ this "record in the Finals" crap. What an arbitrary criteria.

And yes everything in sports is subjective and a matter of personal preference. Like it or not sports are subjective and nothing is ever unanimous, just like music sports are subjective.

[Fatal9]

Kobe is about 90% as good/impactful as Jordan prime vs. prime, maybe a shade under 90% peak vs. peak (2006/2007 Kobe vs. 1990-'91 Jordan). Peak MJ was a fukcing monster - Kobe can't see him.
'07 Kobe: 31.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.4 apg, 58 TS%

'91 MJ: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 60.5 TS%

[gengiskhan]

The most iconic NBA player ever. JORDAN

The one who was bigger than his own sport ala Pele, Ali. JORDAN

The most ultra super athlete who can be scoring champ & play every game, & kill himself defensively every play & be champion: 1984-1993 JORDAN

The most accolades, celebrated and winning player of the toughest decade in the NBA the '90s decade. JORDAN

B'ball IQ, court vision, patience, & multiple attacking angles, inside, post-up, mid range, outside. JORDAN

B'ball handling, making up moves & slipping through defense, no pre-medicated shot selections, extremely quick first step despite handchecking physical defense. 1984-1993 JORDAN

Range, half court proper jumpshots, ability to pull up off the weak left side, stop on a dime jumper, fadeback, fadeaway, runners. JORDAN

LEBRON ONLY BEATS MJ IN REBOUNDING & DOMINIQUE LIKE PHYSICAL STRENGTH. nothing else besides this.

Wade & Kobe are like watered down poor man's MJ without superhuman skills. They will never match MJ at anything. nothing

[DaHeezy]

In this case, all the intangibles your speaking of aren't intangibles... there called excuses. If you were talking about effort, hard-work, mental preparation... that would make sense from an intangible standpoint. But to ask questions like : what era did he play in, who were his teammates, would he have same success if he was on a different team. Are you kidding me? Is that truly the only path one can go on now for arguments sake?

First of all, we're not talking about comparing them to a player way back, for example the 60's, where it actually makes sense to bring up the era aspect.

Second of all, I'm still in shock over would he have the same success if he was on different teams as an argument. What about the thousands of other players in NBA history. Where would they rank all time if they were on different teams? See how ridiculous it is to use that as an argument? When you use something so conceptual, theoretical, and generalized like that as your argument, your going no-where. Anything that can potentially create a scenario where you ask : "what if Pippen was on another team and Jerry West from the 60's era joined Jordan and Kobe had 1970's Kareem instead of Shaq, would Kobe have potentially been better?" is just arbitrary.

Do you think your "intangibles" above answer why Kobe has never put up a finals performance even close to Jordan's?

I feel like your main case is to defend the right to argue. No duh sherlock. Go ahead and argue all you want, there's obviously no way we can control that.

There's the right to argue, and then there's what is debatable. You can be looking at an apple, and I could say "that's not an apple. What if you had some mental disease where you hallucinate things." I have my right to say that, but that doesn't make the topic debatable. As of right now there is no sensible debate for Kobe being better then Jordan. Not offensively, not defensively.

Dude, you are all over the place I think you got to assess your own mental state. Your man crush for Jordan made you sound extremely delusional.

As far as my statement about intangibles, looks like that infuriated you. And for you to call them excuses? I think that was your feeble way to protect any cink in Jordans's armor. How is what I refered to as intangibles excuses? But in essence I think any NON-BIAS basketball fan would agree with me.

Your reference to the apple? Wow, you're really reaching there buddy. That was so far off the topic. I hope you weren't referring me to someone mentally delusional, because really it makes you look more ignorant.

Where the hell did he say Kobe was better than Jordan? No where. Please stop. If you can't see that Kobe was actually not as far off to Jordan as people make it seem, your so very delusional on nostalgia it's ridiculous.And read the post above me. How come this guy can point out soemthing you so blindly can't see? Right, your a Jordian:lol

[gengiskhan]

'07 Kobe: 31.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.4 apg, 58 TS%

'91 MJ: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 60.5 TS%

haha. are you serious. dumb ass!!

2007 Kobe is more like 26.6 ppg per 1991 NBA rules for easy offense relaxed rules. subtract 5ppg & whats his shooting %. :lol

or

1991 MJ's is more like 36.5 ppg per 2007 NBA rules if you adjust to kobe's 2007 offensive rules NBA era & maybe more cuz his shooting % will go over 55%.

1991 MJ the most efficient MJ scoring & playing wise. Kobe was never ever close. just PPG can never ever be compared without taking relaxed offensive oriented rules of 2007.

you have to make stat adjustment. & MJ's assists ratio will go up to cuz Pip & grant alley-oop dunks per game will go up too.

[gengiskhan]

:oldlol: @ this "record in the Finals" crap. What an arbitrary criteria.

And yes everything in sports is subjective and a matter of personal preference. Like it or not sports are subjective and nothing is ever unanimous, just like music sports are subjective.

dumb ass!!:lol :lol :roll:

So kobe looses NBA finals with Shaq on his team & looses finals MVP to Billups.:facepalm

NBA MVP Kobe looses to paul pierce again after 4 yrs in finals despite being in his 5th NBA finals.

all this shit doesn't count. :facepalm :facepalm

****ing kobe'tards are the most retarded morons.:rolleyes:

[DaHeezy]

You know what I find funny about this subject? I'm also a hockey fan and have watched hockey since the 80's. The gap of Gretzky's greatness is by far more definitive than Jordan's is to basketball and far less debatable to Crosby's claim to GOAT status as compared to Jordan/Kobe. Yet Gretzky stans are far more open mided to the idea that Crosby could be as great or even greater than Gretzky.

Kind of puts into perspective Jordan fan's versus other fans. This hold true when debating all sports in comparison: Tiger/Jack, Federer to sampras....

[Nevaeh]

:oldlol: @ this "record in the Finals" crap. What an arbitrary criteria.

And yes everything in sports is subjective and a matter of personal preference. Like it or not sports are subjective and nothing is ever unanimous, just like music sports are subjective.

Okay then, if everything is "subjective" as you claim it to be then why do you feel the need to debate anyone here at all? I guarantee that if the roles were reversed, with Kobe garnering GOAT talk over MJ, you wouldn't be pulling the "subjective" card like you are right now.

[Ne 1]

dumb ass!!:lol :lol :roll:

So kobe looses NBA finals with Shaq on his team & looses finals MVP to Billups.:facepalm

NBA MVP Kobe looses to paul pierce again after 4 yrs in finals despite being in his 5th NBA finals.

all this shit doesn't count. :facepalm :facepalm

****ing kobe'tards are the most retarded morons.:rolleyes:

Obvious troll is obvious.

But anyway, making it to the Finals is an accomplishment. People talk like losing in the 1st round is better than making it to the Finals then losing.

So Kobe is a failure because he went to 7 Finals and lost 2? Is Magic a failure for losing 4 finals? Hell, Jerry West was 1-8 in the Finals yet he's "Mr. Clutch". Also the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics > '91 Lakers, '92 Blazers, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics and the 1997/1998 Jazz.

[Ne 1]

Okay then, if everything is "subjective" as you claim it to be then why do you feel the need to debate anyone here at all? I guarantee that if the roles were reversed, with Kobe garnering GOAT talk over MJ, you wouldn't be pulling the "subjective" card like you are right now.

When did I say that Kobe is the GOAT? When did I say Kobe is better then Jordan? That's right I didn't.

All I ever said was that the difference between great players isn't as immense as people make it out to be and Kobe and Jordan are comparable... Like I said these arguments with Kobe and Jordan are emotionally charged, because Kobe is so polarizing, while everyone loved and admired Jordan.

[gengiskhan]

Obvious troll is obvious.

But anyway, making it to the Finals is an accomplishment. People talk like losing in the 1st round is better than making it to the Finals then losing.

So Kobe is a failure because he went to 7 Finals and lost 2? Is Magic a failure for losing 4 finals? Hell, Jerry West was 1-8 in the Finals yet he's "Mr. Clutch". Also the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics > '91 Lakers, '92 Blazers, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics and the 1997/1998 Jazz.
:roll: :roll:

Team of serior citizens '08 celtics is better than runner up MVP & 5 time champ 3rd best team of the year 1991 LA LAKERS. :roll: (Magic was only 31 btw)

Team of '04 pistons a very good team is better than 1990 stacked NBA finalist with runner up MVP clyde the glyde & deep bench.:oldlol:

Team of '04 pistons though a very good team is better than again 1992 NBA finalist & again runner up MVP clyde the glyde & deep bench. :oldlol:


Whoever kobe looses to are better team the whoever MJ beat in the finals.:roll: :roll:

kobe'tards are getting even more retarded.

[Nevaeh]

When did I say that Kobe is the GOAT? When did I say Kobe is better then Jordan? That's right I didn't.

All I ever said was that the difference between great players isn't as immense as people make it out to be and Kobe and Jordan are comparable... Like I said these arguments with Kobe and Jordan are emotionally charged, because Kobe is so polarizing, while everyone loved and admired Jordan.

How are the arguments "emotionally" charged if both sides of the argument are presenting facts based on what each player did, or didn't accomplish during their NBA careers?

Also kinda cute how you simply dismiss the "Finals" argument when you know that the ultimate goal of an NBA player is to win a championship, which is strange considering how you love to throw that Lakers "Championship Trophy" pic around in various threads.

[SinJackal]

OP makes a good point. It's not "everyone" under and over that age who believes things one way or the other, but certainly a very large percentage of people who actually did watch prime Jordan, absolutely do NOT think Kobe or Wade or whoever, is better than Jordan at all. Very few people do believe that. And it's mostly haters or Kobe fanatics. Likewise, not everyone who's new to basketball thinks they're better either, but it seems the biggest age group who thinks Jordan's worse than these new guys, are people who didn't watch Jordan play short of a dozen highlight videos on youtube.



Is there anyone here over the age of 25 that still type/speak like this? LOL!!!

:rolleyes:

Anyone who IMs or texts often, pretty much talks similar to that regardless of their age. Do something quicker than go to forums (which are slow as **** btw), and you'll see nearly everyone talking like that.

[DaHeezy]

How are the arguments "emotionally" charged if both sides of the argument are presenting facts based on what each player did, or didn't accomplish during their NBA careers?

Also kinda cute how you simply dismiss the "Finals" argument when you know that the ultimate goal of an NBA player is to win a championship, which is strange considering how you love to throw that Lakers "Championship Trophy" pic around in various threads.

That's because it is. I have the same stance as ne1, yet I don't sport a Laker avy, my favorite team is far from the Lakers, I'm from Vancouver so I can be as unbias as can be since I don't have a team to follow. Yet my claim that kobe and Jordan is debatable sets off the Jordan stans and I'm automatically deemed a Kobe ******ger and get piled on. You're telling me that's not being emotionally charged? This subject is where I seemed to get the most singled out and chastized.

It's weird, on the other hand I even have posted comments on why I don't like Kobe and get annointed sainthood on here. Another reason why I think non-Jordan fans are more subjective.

[GOBB]

None of them are better than MJ. Lebron has a chance but so did Kobe and we saw how that turned out. Not that he wont end his career as a great. Good luck to Bron but its tough to be better than MJ. But I'm not close minded when it comes to Mike where no one will ever be as good or better.

[Teanett]

None of them are better than MJ. Lebron has a chance but so did Kobe and we saw how that turned out. Not that he wont end his career as a great. Good luck to Bron but its tough to be better than MJ. But I'm not close minded when it comes to Mike where no one will ever be as good or better.

yeah.
lebron is 26 and averaged like 26/7/7 or something like that?
jordan at 26 was like 34/7/6 on 53% while leading the league in steals per game...

fuggedaboutit!

[DMAVS41]

None of them are better than MJ. Lebron has a chance but so did Kobe and we saw how that turned out. Not that he wont end his career as a great. Good luck to Bron but its tough to be better than MJ. But I'm not close minded when it comes to Mike where no one will ever be as good or better.

Nobody that actually watched MJ throughout his career ever gave Kobe a chance to surpass him as a player.

At least with Lebron its somewhat reasonable because Lebron's impact on the game is so great.

What Lebron is missing is at least attainable. Lebron now has to play great in the playoffs and finals and win a bunch of titles. If Lebron does that, then its a conversation.

With Kobe, he could win 8 titles and we would all know he's just not in the MJ class as a player in terms of impact.

But most people here don't know that because they never actually saw prime Jordan play.

[Nevaeh]

Exactly. Why is it other player comparisons are acceptable but a Jordan/Kobe one isn't? That's why I poke fun at "Jordians" is because this is the group of people who are extremely close minded and ignorant. Following all the traits I classify Jordians under. There are great Jordan fans out there, these people ruin it for them.

There's nothing wrong with the comparisons, nor debating about it. The problem occurs when the facts presented begin to tilt in Jordan's favor, which leads to the Pro-Kobe crowd getting mad about it and then accusing you of being a "groupie" or "Jordian" or whatever.

For example, you may bring up Kobe's Finals MVPs as an argument. You say he has 2 as "Da Man". I then bring up Jordan having 6 as "Da Man" in my argument. Now how exactly is that being narrow minded if I use that in my case for MJ being better?

That's not trolling or stirring the pot, that is basic FACT available to anyone on the internet. The "every thing is subjective" defense is a basic cop out for anyone who knows that they'll be on the losing end of a debate or argument.

[DMAVS41]

There's nothing wrong with the comparisons, nor debating about it. The problem occurs when the facts presented begin to tilt in Jordan's favor, which leads to the Pro-Kobe crowd getting mad about it and then accusing you of being a "groupie" or "Jordian" or whatever.

For example, you may bring up Kobe's Finals MVPs as an argument. You say he has 2 as "Da Man". I then bring up Jordan having 6 as "Da Man" in my argument. Now how exactly is that being narrow minded if I use that in my case for MJ being better?

That's not trolling or stirring the pot, that is basic FACT available to anyone on the internet. The "every thing is subjective" defense is a basic cop out for anyone who knows that they'll be on the losing end of a debate or argument.


The problem occurs when nothing backs up one side of the argument. Kobe fails the "eye-test" and the "stats-test"...........

The only way they can be compared is solely on ring count and that is why the brigade of Kobe stans have tried to put so much importance on a team accomplishment when ranking players....

It was never like this before Kobe. And it will hopefully go back to just judging players on how they played and what they accomplished based on the hand they were dealt

[atljonesbro]

There's nothing wrong with the comparisons, nor debating about it. The problem occurs when the facts presented begin to tilt in Jordan's favor, which leads to the Pro-Kobe crowd getting mad about it and then accusing you of being a "groupie" or "Jordian" or whatever.

For example, you may bring up Kobe's Finals MVPs as an argument. You say he has 2 as "Da Man". I then bring up Jordan having 6 as "Da Man" in my argument. Now how exactly is that being narrow minded if I use that in my case for MJ being better?

That's not trolling or stirring the pot, that is basic FACT available to anyone on the internet. The "every thing is subjective" defense is a basic cop out for anyone who knows that they'll be on the losing end of a debate or argument.
I think 99.9% of people know Jordan is Kobe. It's just 99.9% of people who are arguing that Kobe isn't better than Jordan are putting words into the people saying Kobe was close to Jordan. Your saying they're saying Kobe is better than Jordan, which I don't think has came up. So in a sense your arguing your own imagination out of fear that someone may actually may be close to as good as Jordan. Or maybe even someone, LBJ, could actually be better than Jordan. But of course thats impossible because we love Jordan so much and are a bunch of close minded fvcks.

[DMAVS41]

I think 99.9% of people know Jordan is Kobe. It's just 99.9% of people who are arguing that Kobe isn't better than Jordan are putting words into the people saying Kobe was close to Jordan. Your saying they're saying Kobe is better than Jordan, which I don't think has came up. So in a sense your arguing your own imagination out of fear that someone may actually may be close to as good as Jordan. Or maybe even someone, LBJ, could actually be better than Jordan. But of course thats impossible because we love Jordan so much and are a bunch of close minded fvcks.

Most people are on here are saying that Lebron does have a chance to equal or surpass Jordan. Is it likely? Nope. Is it possible? Yes.

With Kobe its different because he just wasn't the player people make him out to be. That is why people are so closed minded to it. If you actually saw them both play its just not a reasonable conclusion.

But Lebron? Its not as crazy. Lebron is basically Karl Malone/Magic/Pippen rolled into one player. Lebron's numbers are some of the best all time. If he plays great and wins a bunch of titles?

Then maybe its a conversation. Not likely, but possible. Never felt that way watching Kobe and I think most that saw them all play feel the same way.

[sacredcow]

Nope, I don't.

Now if you can find a way to take the DNA out of all of them and make it into one player. Until then.

[BlueandGold]

I'm 23 and I think it's a travesty that those players can even be in the same paragraph as MJ, much less in the same sentence.

[RedBlackAttack]

The problem occurs when nothing backs up one side of the argument.
The problem actually occurs when the comparison is made in the first place. It really isn't worth debating. Anyone willing to argue that Kobe Bryant is/was as good or better than MJ doesn't merit a serious back-and-forth.

That is not a slight to Kobe. He is/was a great, great player and I really respect the fact that he is a bit of a throwback (to me, anyways). The guy isn't all buddy-buddy with other NBA players and he really seems to have a fire inside of him of always wanting to prove people wrong... The guy is a gym rat who worked and worked until his game was fine-tuned and didn't worry about his 'brand' or any of this other nonsense that a lot of today's athletes obsess over.

All of that said, there is no comparison to Michael Jordan, and this comes from someone who respected but wasn't a fan of either. In fact, given Jordan's history of abusing my team, any personal bias should probably be on the side of Bryant. But, it's not a close enough comparison to warrant any kind of personal feelings getting in the way of the truth.

I guess that is why people like me get annoyed when fans today that weren't alive in Jordan's prime immediately start comparing players to him as soon as they start to experience some success. They just don't understand how great Jordan was... And, going back and watching the tapes with no emotional involvement and already knowing the outcomes of the games does not do it justice.

You almost had to live through it... To have your team get its heart ripped out over and over and over by the same guy. To see him make huge shot after huge shot after huge shot, to the point where, if he didn't make the big play, you were totally shocked.

There will be only one Michael Jordan. Someone may come along at some point that has a better skillset or the same competitive fire or whatever, but Jordan's career was so perfectly constructed, it is difficult for me to imagine any player ever equally it or surpassing it.

Frankly, it is unfair to these guys today to compare them to Jordan. That is an impossible standard to live up to. Just let them be the players that they are and leave it at that. When you start comparing guys to MJ, it is going to result in problems.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Come on, it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see why Michael Jordan is greater than Kobe, Bron and Wade, does it?

[Jasper]

Michael Jordan
- 10x total top 3 MVP finalist
- 5x time MVP
- 32,292 career points
- 30.1 Career ppg avg
- 30/6/5 career averages
- 6x time champion
- 6x time finals MVP
- 1x NCAA champion
- 3x All-star game MVP
- 10x All-NBA first team
- 1x DPOY
- 9x All-NBA Defensive team
- Rookie of the year
- 14x NBA all-star
- Most Steals in one half
- Averaged 41.0 ppg in the Finals.
- 10x NBA scoring titles

Years played: 15


Kobe Bryant
- 27,868
- 25/5/5 career avgs
- 5x champion
- 2x finals MVP
- 1x MVP
- x13 NBA-all star
- 9x All NBA-all star
- 2x Scoring titles
- 2x NBA-second team
- 9x First all defensive team
- 4x All-star game mvp
- All-rooke Second team

Years played: 15

LBJ
-2x Finals Appearance
-2x NBA MVP
-17,362 career points
- 28/7/7 career avgs
- Rookie of the year
- 7x NBA all star
- 5x All-nba first team
- 3x All defensive first team
- NBA rookie first team
- 2x NBA all star game
- 1x Scoring title

Years played: 8

Nice post : As we can see Lebron has to be now , because just how many years will he be at his prime (6,7,8) ?? :confusedshrug: ??
Three -five years D-Wade if still a teammate , lebron will be looking for other help...
Not only the player , but the team roster has a huge bearing on multiple titles. *I think all the individual accomplishments will hang on Lebrons mantle - but it is the titles that bring that eliteness we are talking about here.

[Nevaeh]

I think 99.9% of people know Jordan is Kobe. It's just 99.9% of people who are arguing that Kobe isn't better than Jordan are putting words into the people saying Kobe was close to Jordan. Your saying they're saying Kobe is better than Jordan, which I don't think has came up. So in a sense your arguing your own imagination out of fear that someone may actually may be close to as good as Jordan. Or maybe even someone, LBJ, could actually be better than Jordan. But of course thats impossible because we love Jordan so much and are a bunch of close minded fvcks.

Dude you have gotta be f@cking kidding me. Did you read the title of this thread? How many debate threads have been started by Pro-Kobe people on these boards claiming Kobe> MJ? I don't care if they're doing it for the lulz or if they actually believe it, but to question a person's sanity for "taking the bait" and debating someone who starts a thread to get a reaction out of people is to take the responsibility away from the person who started the debate in the first place.

I know that when I'm looking at my screen I'm not "Imagining" the black letters against the white background. It's just that we now have a new generation of trolls who like to start shit, get called on it and have their favorite player embarrassed to hell and back, then turn around and pout about it.

If you don't want a response, don't type the sh!t on the screen and press "submit". Not that complicated.

[atljonesbro]

I have a question. If internet was as common then as it is now, how do you think the perception on Jordan would have changed? When I watched basketball and wasn't an "internet person" I just watched and appreciated players games a lot more. Probably due to the fact that I got all of my sporting news through the media, and they like to hype players up. Also all of these hardly noticeable details about players can be found which would never happen if you just watched the game. I think it wouldn't be near as, "OH GOD IF YOU SAY SOMEONE COULD BE BETTER THAN JORDAN YOUR SO STUPID HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAH *closes mind*". If internet had been around during the entirety of basketball, so many things would be different. Players today are under this giant microscope that players back then were not even close to.

I want to know other's thoughts on this

[atljonesbro]

Dude you have gotta be f@cking kidding me. Did you read the title of this thread? How many debate threads have been started by Pro-Kobe people on these boards claiming Kobe> MJ? I don't care if they're doing it for the lulz or if they actually believe it, but to question a person's sanity for "taking the bait" and debating someone who starts a thread to get a reaction out of people is to take the responsibility away from the person who started the debate in the first place.

I know that when I'm looking at my screen I'm not "Imagining" the black letters against the white background. It's just that we now have a new generation of trolls who like to start shit, get called on it and have their favorite player embarrassed to hell and back, then turn around and pout about it.

If you don't want a response, don't type the sh!t on the screen and press "submit". Not that complicated.
Oh ok, so your arguing with people who havn't posted in this thread, interesting. The people in this thread arn't saying Kobe is better than Jordan, so your putting words in their mouth.

[whoartthou]

I think 99.9% of people know Jordan is Kobe. It's just 99.9% of people who are arguing that Kobe isn't better than Jordan are putting words into the people saying Kobe was close to Jordan. Your saying they're saying Kobe is better than Jordan, which I don't think has came up. So in a sense your arguing your own imagination out of fear that someone may actually may be close to as good as Jordan. Or maybe even someone, LBJ, could actually be better than Jordan. But of course thats impossible because we love Jordan so much and are a bunch of close minded fvcks.

damn... this kobe stan really mad.

Lebron does have a chance to surpass MJ.. but he would have to have some insane finals performances imho

[atljonesbro]

damn... this kobe stan really mad.

Lebron does have a chance to surpass MJ.. but he would have to have some insane finals performances imho
For one, I totally hate Kobe and LeBron, but I hate people more who won't give players recognition they deserve. To say Kobe is far from Jordan is completely ridiculous. Hell, someone can come along, score 40 ppg, 15 apg, 20 rpg, win 15 titles, and every other accolade imaginable and people will still say Jordan is better. I DON'T THINK KOBE IS BETTER THAN JORDAN, BUT SAYING HE IS FAR FROM HIM IS FVCKING STUPID

Just so people don't misquote me.

[whoartthou]

lets be fking honest here though.

Kobe only got comparisons to jordan because he literally tried to copy everything from jordan. Kobe is fake... a complete copy and he comes up WAY SHORT.

No one is on MJ's level (who knows what will happen with bron), but as of now, from what i have seen and witnessed, bron definitely is the closest of the 3... followed by kobe and wade (who are both interchangeable, but that might change in a few years depending on how wade plays).

Funny thing is, bron plays NOTHING like MJ...

[DMAVS41]

For one, I totally hate Kobe and LeBron, but I hate people more who won't give players recognition they deserve. To say Kobe is far from Jordan is completely ridiculous. Hell, someone can come along, score 40 ppg, 15 apg, 20 rpg, win 15 titles, and every other accolade imaginable and people will still say Jordan is better. I DON'T THINK KOBE IS BETTER THAN JORDAN, BUT SAYING HE IS FAR FROM HIM IS FVCKING STUPID

Just so people don't misquote me.

Sorry, it is stupid. He is far from him.

Do you think Paul Pierce is close to Kobe? Because the gap between paul pierce and kobe as players is probably smaller than the gap between kobe and jordan.

[Nevaeh]

Oh ok, so your arguing with people who havn't posted in this thread, interesting. The people in this thread arn't saying Kobe is better than Jordan, so your putting words in their mouth.

I'm not arguing or "putting my words in people" just giving my opinions like everyone else that posts here.

[whoartthou]

For one, I totally hate Kobe and LeBron, but I hate people more who won't give players recognition they deserve. To say Kobe is far from Jordan is completely ridiculous. Hell, someone can come along, score 40 ppg, 15 apg, 20 rpg, win 15 titles, and every other accolade imaginable and people will still say Jordan is better. I DON'T THINK KOBE IS BETTER THAN JORDAN, BUT SAYING HE IS FAR FROM HIM IS FVCKING STUPID

Just so people don't misquote me.
:roll: :roll: :roll: If such a player ever comes into materialization, he will easily be the GOAT. No one would be saying jordan is >

Regrading the kobe/Mj debate...

Mj is in tier 1 kobe is probably in tier 4 (when it comes to impact and performance)

So something like..

Mj tier 1

Kaj tier 2

bird/magic tier 3

Kobe tier 4


Kobe has a similar style to MJ... but he is FAR from even being as good as Mj. And yes, it is not even close..

[whoartthou]

Sorry, it is stupid. He is far from him.

Do you think Paul Pierce is close to Kobe? Because the gap between paul pierce and kobe as players is probably smaller than the gap between kobe and jordan.

Paul pierce is closer to kobe... and i mean MUCH closer to kobe... than kobe is to jordan.

[whoartthou]

obviously its not ideal to base anything on one series... but take a look at kobes most recent playoff performance against the mavs.

22/3/3... that is ****ing PITIFUL.

And this was all against a 38 year old kidd, jason terry, and jj barea (Did marion even guard kobe?)

Kobe is nowhere near jordan.. he just draws comparisons because he copied jordan's moves.

Kobe knows this, phil knows it, jordan knows it... so should you homie

[Nevaeh]

lets be fking honest here though.

Kobe only got comparisons to jordan because he literally tried to copy everything from jordan. Kobe is fake... a complete copy and he comes up WAY SHORT.

No one is on MJ's level (who knows what will happen with bron), but as of now, from what i have seen and witnessed, bron definitely is the closest of the 3... followed by kobe and wade (who are both interchangeable, but that might change in a few years depending on how wade plays).

Funny thing is, bron plays NOTHING like MJ...

Not only that, Bron fans weren't the ones constantly making thread after thread based on how he compared to MJ either. It's like people want the luxury of starting threads that will get a reaction, then turn around and complain about the reaction.

[STATUTORY]

Sorry, it is stupid. He is far from him.

Do you think Paul Pierce is close to Kobe? Because the gap between paul pierce and kobe as players is probably smaller than the gap between kobe and jordan.

:roll: :roll:

Pierce is not in the same stratosphere as Kobe. While the things that separate MJ and Kobe is mostly shot selection and zone defense

[whoartthou]

:roll: :roll:

Pierce is not in the same stratosphere as Kobe. While the things that separate MJ and Kobe is mostly shot selection and zone defense
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

pierce proved he was easily in the same stratosphere as kobe in the 2008 finals..

and what separates kobe and MJ is a lot more than that buddy...

athleticism, passing ability, defensive ability, shooting ability, shot selection, basketball iq... basically everything related to basketball!

[Nevaeh]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

pierce proved he was easily in the same stratosphere as kobe in the 2008 finals..

and what separates kobe and MJ is a lot more than that buddy...

athleticism, passing ability, defensive ability, shooting ability, shot selection, basketball iq... basically everything related to basketball!

Not to mention never getting swept with Phil Jackson as your coach either.

[whoartthou]

Not to mention never getting swept with Phil Jackson as your coach either.

no need to even mention phil. When you have the type of team kobe has, with the best frontcourt in the league, and the sixth man of the year.... how the **** do you get swept?

Pierce probably would have atleast won one game with this laker squad...

[sixer6ad]

Jordan had Pippen - yes. Lethal combination. Powerful. Let's look at some of the other players:

Tony Kukoc. Luc Longley. Bill Cartwright. Horace Grant. Craig Hodges. Steve Kerr. John Paxson. Brad Sellars. Charles Oakley. Dennis Rodman.

I'm sure I am missing some, but he carried the franchise to six titles, and his numbers are staggering. THIS IS WHAT MAKES HIM THE GREATEST. Very few complaints about why he couldn't get it done...he just did it. On top of that, he was beyond popular during a time period when the social media was not close to where it is today.

I started in the late 70's watching the NBA, and nobody - not even Kobe - has done what Jordan did. Honestly...you could close your eyes, wish for a comeback, and watch it happen. Amazing attitude, work ethic, demeanor, and demand. In terms of accomplishment, Kobe is so great. In terms of the complete "lethal" package, Kobe - nor any other current player - can come close to doing what Jordan did.

[STATUTORY]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

pierce proved he was easily in the same stratosphere as kobe in the 2008 finals..

and what separates kobe and MJ is a lot more than that buddy...

athleticism, passing ability, defensive ability, shooting ability, shot selection, basketball iq... basically everything related to basketball!

:roll: So when Pierce beat Kobe with top 30 player in KG and top 15 SG in reggie that proved he was as good as Kobe individually?

Kobe is the better shooter and equally tenacious dfender in his youth. Kobe's a great passer, best passer on the Lakers for a decade.

MJ is better than Kobe but not by the degree you are suggesting

[RedBlackAttack]

For one, I totally hate Kobe and LeBron, but I hate people more who won't give players recognition they deserve. To say Kobe is far from Jordan is completely ridiculous. Hell, someone can come along, score 40 ppg, 15 apg, 20 rpg, win 15 titles, and every other accolade imaginable and people will still say Jordan is better. I DON'T THINK KOBE IS BETTER THAN JORDAN, BUT SAYING HE IS FAR FROM HIM IS FVCKING STUPID

Just so people don't misquote me.
He is far from him... And I have no bias one way or the other. I'm just going to assume anyone who believes Kobe is anywhere near Jordan is under 25 and wasn't old enough to appreciate how good Jordan was in his prime.

[RedBlackAttack]

Kobe is the better shooter

Wrong.


and equally tenacious dfender

Dead wrong.


MJ is better than Kobe but not by the degree you are suggesting
....wrong.

[ChandlerParsons]

Like I tell idiots on youtube, Kobe is not the 2nd greatest player of all time.



But to be serious, 25 and over? so.. basically when Jordan won his first ring you were 5? IM RETARDED SO TELL ME IF I DID MAH MATH RIGHT
5 year olds dont no sheez bout basketball on Lebron cause he was born 6.0 and was the GOAT already

[DeuceWallaces]

No one should think that given any age, but to be safe you should change it to 27 so they were at least 14 when he won his last title.

[Cosmonaut]

You can't compare Lebron and Wade to Jordan just yet, as they are half way through their careers.

Jordan though in the early part of his career was just like Lebron and Wade, an athletic freak that needed to mature more to become a champion.

Jordan then matured and went on to win 6 nba titles, can Lebron and Wade do that?

Kobe on the other hand, is on the other end of his career, won 5 titles nearly as many as Jordan. Don't get me wrong but Kobe is a great player, but he is not as dominant as Jordan was at this stage of his career. Maybe thats because Kobe isn't shouldering as much load these days or maybe due to injuries.

The difference between Jordan and Kobe is that at the end of Jordans career with the bulls, you knew he could of gone on for 1 more year and win another title, but with Kobe you just don't know now if he will or not.

[OldSchoolBBall]

'07 Kobe: 31.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.4 apg, 58 TS%

'91 MJ: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 60.5 TS%

How very disingenuous of you. :oldlol: First off, you're comparing MJ's numbers while playing on a GREAT team in the Triangle (and actually running the Triangle, not letting Kobe freelance and gun whenever he wanted to like Jackson did in '06/'07) to a guy playing on a wretched team and being allowed to play free-flowing, gunning basketball. These aren't even comparable situations at all. How'd Kobe's numbers look in 2008 when he was actually on a championship caliber team? Yeah, that's what I thought. :oldlol: But anyway...

Even looking past this, there are more reasons why your post is disingenuous. For starters, Kobe played nearly 4 more mpg than Jordan, a 10+% increase. Here's how their numbers look adjusted for per40 minutes:

1991 Jordan per40 - 34.1 pts/6.5 reb/6.0 ast/2.9 stl/.8 blk/2.7 TO/53.9% FG/60.5% TS/31.6 PER/125 ORtg/20.3 Win Shares

2007 Kobe per40 - 31.0 pts/5.6 reb/5.3 ast/1.4 stl/.5 blk/3.2 TO/46.3% FG/58.0% TS/26.1 PER/115 ORtg/13.0 Win Shares


As you can see, Jordan trounces Kobe in ppg (+3.1), averages more rpg (nearly an extra rebound per 40) and more apg (+.7 apg, again, despite playing with another ballhandler/high apg player in Pippen at 6.2 ast), more than doubles Kobe in steals, and averages .3 more bpg as well as over half a TO per40 less than Kobe. And he does this while being vastly more efficient (even relative to the league), which magnifies his scoring advantage even more.

This is saying nothing of his LARGE defensive advantage - this is peak Jordan defensively here, folks. Dominant individual and team/help defense and obscene disruption from the perimeter. Check the 1991 series vs. Detroit or LA if you need any proof that MJ's defensive impact was in a completely different league from 2007 (or any version of) Kobe's defensive impact.

I know you don't want me to compare their playoff numbers from these years, because it makes the comparison even more lopsided, but let's do so:


1991 Jordan's playoffs per40 - 30.7 pts/6.3 reb/8.3 ast/2.3 stl/1.3 blk/2.5 TO/52.4% FG/60.0% TS/32.0 PER/127 ORtg/4.8 Win Shares

2007 Kobe's playoffs per40 - 30.3 pts/4.8 reb/4.1 ast/.9 stl/.4 blk/4.1 TO/46.2% FG/56.1% TS/24.1 PER/111 ORtg/.5 Win Shares


Jordan leads slightly in ppg, but the staggering gap in efficiency (+6% FG/+4% TS) magnifies that, meaning that on an equal efficiency basis, Jordan would have scored at least 3-4 more ppg. Then on top of that, MJ gets you 1.5 more rpg, more than doubles Kobe in assists, and averages 2.5 times as many steals and 3+ times as many blocks as Kobe. He does all of this while turning the ball over 1.6 fewer times per40. Keep in mind that the 2007 Suns were no better defensively than any team MJ faced in the '91 playoffs, and as compared to 2 of his 4 opponents, were substantially worse.

The 1991 Laker team that Jordan averaged 31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.2 ast/2.8 stl/1.4 blk/56% FG/66.4% TS against had averages of 105 DRtg/94.1 Pace/99.6 opp. ppg/46.2% opp. FG% as compared to 2007 Phoenix's averages of 106.4 DRtg/95.6 Pace/102.9 opp. ppg/45.7% opp. FG%. Yet Kobe didn't come within a country mile of having the type of performance Jordan did - go figure. Maybe if Kobe were, you know, actually as good as Jordan, the Lakers would have won that series vs. Phoenix.

I say all this to preempt any and all objections, disingenuousness, and red herrings that idiots like Fatal9 will throw out to try to distract you from the fact that 1991 Jordan was in a different league than even 2007 Kobe (which itself can be argued to be a top 20 season by a non-big in league history). Jordan's 1991 is still the gold standard for a perimeter player in terms of the overall combination of stats/impact/two-way dominance/team success/accolades, and likely will be for a very long time.


Let's now take a look at why Fatal9 chose MJ's 1991 season instead of his 1990 campaign. Clearly, he did so because MJ's numbers were somewhat depressed in 1991 by his then career-low 37 mpg versus Kobe's 41 mpg. Let's look at 1990 Jordan and 2007 Kobe's per40 averages for the regular season:

1990 Jordan per40 - 34.4 pts/7.1 reb/6.5 ast/2.9 stl/.8 blk/2.7 TO/52.6% FG/60.6% TS/31.2 PER/123 ORtg/19.0 Win Shares

2007 Kobe per40 - 31.0 pts/5.6 reb/5.3 ast/1.4 stl/.5 blk/3.2 TO/46.3% FG/58.0% TS/26.1 PER/115 ORtg/13.0 Win Shares


So we see that Jordan averaged 3.4 more points, 1.5 more reb, 1.2 more ast, more than DOUBLED Kobe's steals, averaged .3 more bpg, and averaged a half less TO per40, all while DESTROYING Kobe in terms of efficiency (even relative to their respective league averages) and advanced stats by every metric. Again, not even close. And also again, keep in mind that this is MJ's defensive peak - Kobe is not in the same league in terms of defensive impact as 1990 Jordan.

Now let's look at their playoff numbers per40:


1990 Jordan's playoffs per40 - 34.8 pts/6.8 reb/6.5 ast/2.7 stl/.8 blk/3.3 TO/51.4% FG/59.2% TS/31.6 PER/120 ORtg/4.0 Win Shares

2007 Kobe's playoffs per40 - 30.3 pts/4.8 reb/4.1 ast/.9 stl/.4 blk/4.1 TO/46.2% FG/56.1% TS/24.1 PER/111 ORtg/.5 Win Shares

Here Jordan enjoys a 4.5 ppg edge on vastly better efficiency (hence the actual edge is even larger than the 4.5 ppg suggests), grabs you 2 more rebs, gets 2.4 more assists, triples Kobe in steals, and doubles him in blocks, all while turning the ball over .8 fewer times per40 than Kobe. All of these advantages are, of course, reflected in the PER and ORtg in particular. And again, Jordan has a substantial defensive edge in this season over 2007 Kobe. Substantial. So again, not really a contest.


In summary: lol @ this dude posting BS numbers and thinking he'd get away with it. :oldlol: Like I said, prime/peak Kobe is about 90% of prime/peak Jordan, possibly a shade less than 90% if we're talking absolute peak season(s). I was actually being generous, as the numbers above prove.

[97 bulls]

How very disingenuous of you. :oldlol: First off, you're comparing MJ's numbers while playing on a GREAT team in the Triangle (and actually running the Triangle, not letting Kobe freelance and gun whenever he wanted to like Jackson did in '06/'07) to a guy playing on a wretched team and being allowed to play free-flowing, gunning basketball. These aren't even comparable situations at all. How'd Kobe's numbers look in 2008 when he was actually on a championship caliber team? Yeah, that's what I thought. :oldlol: But anyway...

Even looking past this, there are more reasons why your post is disingenuous. For starters, Kobe played nearly 4 more mpg than Jordan, a 10+% increase. Here's how their numbers look adjusted for per40 minutes:

1991 Jordan per40 - 34.1 pts/6.5 reb/6.0 ast/2.9 stl/.8 blk/2.7 TO/53.9% FG/60.5% TS/31.6 PER/125 ORtg/20.3 Win Shares

2007 Kobe per40 - 31.0 pts/5.6 reb/5.3 ast/1.4 stl/.5 blk/3.2 TO/46.3% FG/58.0% TS/26.1 PER/115 ORtg/13.0 Win Shares


As you can see, Jordan trounces Kobe in ppg (+3.1), averages more rpg (nearly an extra rebound per 40) and more apg (+.7 apg, again, despite playing with another ballhandler/high apg player in Pippen at 6.2 ast), more than doubles Kobe in steals, and averages .3 more bpg as well as over half a TO per40 less than Kobe. And he does this while being vastly more efficient (even relative to the league), which magnifies his scoring advantage even more.

This is saying nothing of his LARGE defensive advantage - this is peak Jordan defensively here, folks. Dominant individual and team/help defense and obscene disruption from the perimeter. Check the 1991 series vs. Detroit or LA if you need any proof that MJ's defensive impact was in a completely different league from 2007 (or any version of) Kobe's defensive impact.

I know you don't want me to compare their playoff numbers from these years, because it makes the comparison even more lopsided, but let's do so:


1991 Jordan's playoffs per40 - 30.7 pts/6.3 reb/8.3 ast/2.3 stl/1.3 blk/2.5 TO/52.4% FG/60.0% TS/32.0 PER/127 ORtg/4.8 Win Shares

2007 Kobe's playoffs per40 - 30.3 pts/4.8 reb/4.1 ast/.9 stl/.4 blk/4.1 TO/46.2% FG/56.1% TS/24.1 PER/111 ORtg/.5 Win Shares


Jordan leads slightly in ppg, but the staggering gap in efficiency (+6% FG/+4% TS) magnifies that, meaning that on an equal efficiency basis, Jordan would have scored at least 3-4 more ppg. Then on top of that, MJ gets you 1.5 more rpg, more than doubles Kobe in assists, and averages 2.5 times as many steals and 3+ times as many blocks as Kobe. He does all of this while turning the ball over 1.6 fewer times per40. Keep in mind that the 2007 Suns were no better defensively than any team MJ faced in the '91 playoffs, and as compared to 2 of his 4 opponents, were substantially worse.

The 1991 Laker team that Jordan averaged 31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.2 ast/2.8 stl/1.4 blk/56% FG/66.4% TS against had averages of 105 DRtg/94.1 Pace/99.6 opp. ppg/46.2% opp. FG% as compared to 2007 Phoenix's averages of 106.4 DRtg/95.6 Pace/102.9 opp. ppg/45.7% opp. FG%. Yet Kobe didn't come within a country mile of having the type of performance Jordan did - go figure. Maybe if Kobe were, you know, actually as good as Jordan, the Lakers would have won that series vs. Phoenix.

I say all this to preempt any and all objections, disingenuousness, and red herrings that idiots like Fatal9 will throw out to try to distract you from the fact that 1991 Jordan was in a different league than even 2007 Kobe (which itself can be argued to be a top 20 season by a non-big in league history). Jordan's 1991 is still the gold standard for a perimeter player in terms of the overall combination of stats/impact/two-way dominance/team success/accolades, and likely will be for a very long time.


Let's now take a look at why Fatal9 chose MJ's 1991 season instead of his 1990 campaign. Clearly, he did so because MJ's numbers were somewhat depressed in 1991 by his then career-low 37 mpg versus Kobe's 41 mpg. Let's look at 1990 Jordan and 2007 Kobe's per40 averages for the regular season:

1990 Jordan per40 - 34.4 pts/7.1 reb/6.5 ast/2.9 stl/.8 blk/2.7 TO/52.6% FG/60.6% TS/31.2 PER/123 ORtg/19.0 Win Shares

2007 Kobe per40 - 31.0 pts/5.6 reb/5.3 ast/1.4 stl/.5 blk/3.2 TO/46.3% FG/58.0% TS/26.1 PER/115 ORtg/13.0 Win Shares


So we see that Jordan averaged 3.4 more points, 1.5 more reb, 1.2 more ast, more than DOUBLED Kobe's steals, averaged .3 more bpg, and averaged a half less TO per40, all while DESTROYING Kobe in terms of efficiency (even relative to their respective league averages) and advanced stats by every metric. Again, not even close. And also again, keep in mind that this is MJ's defensive peak - Kobe is not in the same league in terms of defensive impact as 1990 Jordan.

Now let's look at their playoff numbers per40:


1990 Jordan's playoffs per40 - 34.8 pts/6.8 reb/6.5 ast/2.7 stl/.8 blk/3.3 TO/51.4% FG/59.2% TS/31.6 PER/120 ORtg/4.0 Win Shares

2007 Kobe's playoffs per40 - 30.3 pts/4.8 reb/4.1 ast/.9 stl/.4 blk/4.1 TO/46.2% FG/56.1% TS/24.1 PER/111 ORtg/.5 Win Shares

Here Jordan enjoys a 4.5 ppg edge on vastly better efficiency (hence the actual edge is even larger than the 4.5 ppg suggests), grabs you 2 more rebs, gets 2.4 more assists, triples Kobe in steals, and doubles him in blocks, all while turning the ball over .8 fewer times per40 than Kobe. All of these advantages are, of course, reflected in the PER and ORtg in particular. And again, Jordan has a substantial defensive edge in this season over 2007 Kobe. Substantial. So again, not really a contest.


In summary: lol @ this dude posting BS numbers and thinking he'd get away with it. :oldlol: Like I said, prime/peak Kobe is about 90% of prime/peak Jordan, possibly a shade less than 90% if we're talking absolute peak season(s). I was actually being generous, as the numbers above prove.
Fatal9 just got owned so bad that he should be banned. Great post oldschool. Maybe I should stop arguing with you about pippen

[Fatal9]

...
OMG dude, you did not just type out all that to a post meant to get a cheap reaction out of you.

[chazzy]

OMG dude, you did not just type out all that to a post meant to get a cheap reaction out of you.
:roll: I KNEW he would take the bait, but not take it that far

edit: it was so long he included a summary

[OldSchoolBBall]

OMG dude, you did not just type out all that to a post meant to get a cheap reaction out of you.

I doubt you posted that jokingly. In fact, a poster on another board has exactly what you posted as their signature, leading me to believe that deluded Kobe fans actually believe that it's a very close comparison when in fact it's not. If you did post it as a joke, then at least others will get to see the magnitude of the difference between peak Kobe and peak Jordan.

[Fatal9]

I doubt you posted that jokingly. In fact, a poster on another board has exactly what you posted as their signature, leading me to believe that deluded Kobe fans actually believe that it's very close comparison when in fact it's not. If you did post it as a joke, then at least others will get to see the magnitude of the difference between peak Kobe and peak Jordan.
And that's exactly why I posted that. Because I've seen that as the signature of the same guy before on realgm (briefly posted there few months ago) and I always lol'd at it.

Here's a gif of MJ looking like a boss for your troubles:

http://i.imgur.com/lAZ1L.gif

[DaHeezy]

There's nothing wrong with the comparisons, nor debating about it. The problem occurs when the facts presented begin to tilt in Jordan's favor, which leads to the Pro-Kobe crowd getting mad about it and then accusing you of being a "groupie" or "Jordian" or whatever.

See, here is where I beg to differ. I see Jordians becoming more hostile when the arguments do become more pro-Kobe. This has been fact since day one on ISH. It's even more apparent when even with my stance which has been unsided i've become labelled a Kobe stan. Because I say Kobe CAN be debated? It deosn't make me a stan. It makes me a sports fan. The way things go around here is that Kobe stans try to voice that Kobe can be better and Jordians try to put a censorship on it. Kobe stans get WAAAYYY more slack for their statements than vicesa versa


For example, you may bring up Kobe's Finals MVPs as an argument. You say he has 2 as "Da Man". I then bring up Jordan having 6 as "Da Man" in my argument. Now how exactly is that being narrow minded if I use that in my case for MJ being better?

Ahh, you've payed attention to my other threads. No, it's not close minded at all. In fact it's an arguable point for Jordan. But Jordain should not get butt hurt if somebody brought up Russell has won 11 (against Wilt Chamberlain) in merely 13 seasons. See what I'm saying?


That's not trolling or stirring the pot, that is basic FACT available to anyone on the internet. The "every thing is subjective" defense is a basic cop out for anyone who knows that they'll be on the losing end of a debate or argument.

Again it's not. Because it IS subjective. In every case of sports debate, especially team sports there are so many factors that make it non-definitive.

Like I've said before, I'm also a hockey fan, and Gretzky's gap of greatness well exceeds that of Jordan's in his own sport, yet arguing a Crosby, Lemiuex, Orr seems way more acceptable. Jordian's cannot accept it, especially with Kobe.

I've mention before is I haven't even taken a stance on who's better between Kobe and Jordan. In all honesty if you put a gun to my head I'll take Jordan. But because I've said Kobe is debatable it makes me a Kobe stan? Doesn't make sense. Again, there are good NBA Jordan fans. then there are the Jordians.

[chazzy]

I doubt you posted that jokingly.
:roll: Stop!!

[Scoooter]

I'm just envisioning a one-on-one tournament, where Jordan just shreds all of these guys. Or maybe it's like Game of Death, with Jordan working his way up the pagoda.

They should make it into a Nike commercial.

[DaHeezy]

For one, I totally hate Kobe and LeBron, but I hate people more who won't give players recognition they deserve. To say Kobe is far from Jordan is completely ridiculous. Hell, someone can come along, score 40 ppg, 15 apg, 20 rpg, win 15 titles, and every other accolade imaginable and people will still say Jordan is better. I DON'T THINK KOBE IS BETTER THAN JORDAN, BUT SAYING HE IS FAR FROM HIM IS FVCKING STUPID

Just so people don't misquote me.

Bro, it's futile. Once you're labelled, you're a goner. It's like when they lynched witches back in the day. Even if you can prove you're not, you'll be burned at the stake.

[DaHeezy]

I think 99.9% of people know Jordan is Kobe. It's just 99.9% of people who are arguing that Kobe isn't better than Jordan are putting words into the people saying Kobe was close to Jordan. Your saying they're saying Kobe is better than Jordan, which I don't think has came up. So in a sense your arguing your own imagination out of fear that someone may actually may be close to as good as Jordan. Or maybe even someone, LBJ, could actually be better than Jordan. But of course thats impossible because we love Jordan so much and are a bunch of close minded fvcks.

This guy gets it

[DaHeezy]

I have a question. If internet was as common then as it is now, how do you think the perception on Jordan would have changed? When I watched basketball and wasn't an "internet person" I just watched and appreciated players games a lot more. Probably due to the fact that I got all of my sporting news through the media, and they like to hype players up. Also all of these hardly noticeable details about players can be found which would never happen if you just watched the game. I think it wouldn't be near as, "OH GOD IF YOU SAY SOMEONE COULD BE BETTER THAN JORDAN YOUR SO STUPID HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAH *closes mind*". If internet had been around during the entirety of basketball, so many things would be different. Players today are under this giant microscope that players back then were not even close to.

I want to know other's thoughts on this

If internet was a factor than we can see how progressively has gotten bigger, faster, stronger, and because we as fans want to see excitment, old school players don't have a chance.

[DaHeezy]

Dude you have gotta be f@cking kidding me. Did you read the title of this thread? How many debate threads have been started by Pro-Kobe people on these boards claiming Kobe> MJ? I don't care if they're doing it for the lulz or if they actually believe it, but to question a person's sanity for "taking the bait" and debating someone who starts a thread to get a reaction out of people is to take the responsibility away from the person who started the debate in the first place.

I know that when I'm looking at my screen I'm not "Imagining" the black letters against the white background. It's just that we now have a new generation of trolls who like to start shit, get called on it and have their favorite player embarrassed to hell and back, then turn around and pout about it.

If you don't want a response, don't type the sh!t on the screen and press "submit". Not that complicated.

I agree somewhat, but in essence if somebody is trying to debate on the stance of Kobe, then they shouldn't be chastized for it. Problem is when somebody does start their stance they are immediately brutalized for it because Jordan fans start to become volaite. That's probably why most Kobe stans back off. It's a futile debate because now it becomes a war of insults.
Yeah there are Kobe idoits, and I'll be the first to admit that the majority of Kobe stans are trolls, but from what i obsevre there are far more close minded Jordan fans than Kobe idiots.

[Nevaeh]

I doubt you posted that jokingly. In fact, a poster on another board has exactly what you posted as their signature, leading me to believe that deluded Kobe fans actually believe that it's a very close comparison when in fact it's not. If you did post it as a joke, then at least others will get to see the magnitude of the difference between peak Kobe and peak Jordan.

This is exactly the point I made earlier. All because of a troll (Kobe Fan or otherwise), a can of worms was opened to once again show how statistically Kobe falls short of MJ. Then Kobe Stans will get mad at you for posting things they don't want to hear/read, not blaming the troll who caused your response post in the first place.

Simple, you troll you get served with facts that make your favorite Icon look like a chump. Such is life I reckon.

[andgar923]

How very disingenuous of you. :oldlol: First off, you're comparing MJ's numbers while playing on a GREAT team in the Triangle (and actually running the Triangle, not letting Kobe freelance and gun whenever he wanted to like Jackson did in '06/'07) to a guy playing on a wretched team and being allowed to play free-flowing, gunning basketball. These aren't even comparable situations at all. How'd Kobe's numbers look in 2008 when he was actually on a championship caliber team? Yeah, that's what I thought. :oldlol: But anyway...

Even looking past this, there are more reasons why your post is disingenuous. For starters, Kobe played nearly 4 more mpg than Jordan, a 10+% increase. Here's how their numbers look adjusted for per40 minutes:

1991 Jordan per40 - 34.1 pts/6.5 reb/6.0 ast/2.9 stl/.8 blk/2.7 TO/53.9% FG/60.5% TS/31.6 PER/125 ORtg/20.3 Win Shares

2007 Kobe per40 - 31.0 pts/5.6 reb/5.3 ast/1.4 stl/.5 blk/3.2 TO/46.3% FG/58.0% TS/26.1 PER/115 ORtg/13.0 Win Shares


As you can see, Jordan trounces Kobe in ppg (+3.1), averages more rpg (nearly an extra rebound per 40) and more apg (+.7 apg, again, despite playing with another ballhandler/high apg player in Pippen at 6.2 ast), more than doubles Kobe in steals, and averages .3 more bpg as well as over half a TO per40 less than Kobe. And he does this while being vastly more efficient (even relative to the league), which magnifies his scoring advantage even more.

This is saying nothing of his LARGE defensive advantage - this is peak Jordan defensively here, folks. Dominant individual and team/help defense and obscene disruption from the perimeter. Check the 1991 series vs. Detroit or LA if you need any proof that MJ's defensive impact was in a completely different league from 2007 (or any version of) Kobe's defensive impact.

I know you don't want me to compare their playoff numbers from these years, because it makes the comparison even more lopsided, but let's do so:


1991 Jordan's playoffs per40 - 30.7 pts/6.3 reb/8.3 ast/2.3 stl/1.3 blk/2.5 TO/52.4% FG/60.0% TS/32.0 PER/127 ORtg/4.8 Win Shares

2007 Kobe's playoffs per40 - 30.3 pts/4.8 reb/4.1 ast/.9 stl/.4 blk/4.1 TO/46.2% FG/56.1% TS/24.1 PER/111 ORtg/.5 Win Shares


Jordan leads slightly in ppg, but the staggering gap in efficiency (+6% FG/+4% TS) magnifies that, meaning that on an equal efficiency basis, Jordan would have scored at least 3-4 more ppg. Then on top of that, MJ gets you 1.5 more rpg, more than doubles Kobe in assists, and averages 2.5 times as many steals and 3+ times as many blocks as Kobe. He does all of this while turning the ball over 1.6 fewer times per40. Keep in mind that the 2007 Suns were no better defensively than any team MJ faced in the '91 playoffs, and as compared to 2 of his 4 opponents, were substantially worse.

The 1991 Laker team that Jordan averaged 31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.2 ast/2.8 stl/1.4 blk/56% FG/66.4% TS against had averages of 105 DRtg/94.1 Pace/99.6 opp. ppg/46.2% opp. FG% as compared to 2007 Phoenix's averages of 106.4 DRtg/95.6 Pace/102.9 opp. ppg/45.7% opp. FG%. Yet Kobe didn't come within a country mile of having the type of performance Jordan did - go figure. Maybe if Kobe were, you know, actually as good as Jordan, the Lakers would have won that series vs. Phoenix.

I say all this to preempt any and all objections, disingenuousness, and red herrings that idiots like Fatal9 will throw out to try to distract you from the fact that 1991 Jordan was in a different league than even 2007 Kobe (which itself can be argued to be a top 20 season by a non-big in league history). Jordan's 1991 is still the gold standard for a perimeter player in terms of the overall combination of stats/impact/two-way dominance/team success/accolades, and likely will be for a very long time.


Let's now take a look at why Fatal9 chose MJ's 1991 season instead of his 1990 campaign. Clearly, he did so because MJ's numbers were somewhat depressed in 1991 by his then career-low 37 mpg versus Kobe's 41 mpg. Let's look at 1990 Jordan and 2007 Kobe's per40 averages for the regular season:

1990 Jordan per40 - 34.4 pts/7.1 reb/6.5 ast/2.9 stl/.8 blk/2.7 TO/52.6% FG/60.6% TS/31.2 PER/123 ORtg/19.0 Win Shares

2007 Kobe per40 - 31.0 pts/5.6 reb/5.3 ast/1.4 stl/.5 blk/3.2 TO/46.3% FG/58.0% TS/26.1 PER/115 ORtg/13.0 Win Shares


So we see that Jordan averaged 3.4 more points, 1.5 more reb, 1.2 more ast, more than DOUBLED Kobe's steals, averaged .3 more bpg, and averaged a half less TO per40, all while DESTROYING Kobe in terms of efficiency (even relative to their respective league averages) and advanced stats by every metric. Again, not even close. And also again, keep in mind that this is MJ's defensive peak - Kobe is not in the same league in terms of defensive impact as 1990 Jordan.

Now let's look at their playoff numbers per40:


1990 Jordan's playoffs per40 - 34.8 pts/6.8 reb/6.5 ast/2.7 stl/.8 blk/3.3 TO/51.4% FG/59.2% TS/31.6 PER/120 ORtg/4.0 Win Shares

2007 Kobe's playoffs per40 - 30.3 pts/4.8 reb/4.1 ast/.9 stl/.4 blk/4.1 TO/46.2% FG/56.1% TS/24.1 PER/111 ORtg/.5 Win Shares

Here Jordan enjoys a 4.5 ppg edge on vastly better efficiency (hence the actual edge is even larger than the 4.5 ppg suggests), grabs you 2 more rebs, gets 2.4 more assists, triples Kobe in steals, and doubles him in blocks, all while turning the ball over .8 fewer times per40 than Kobe. All of these advantages are, of course, reflected in the PER and ORtg in particular. And again, Jordan has a substantial defensive edge in this season over 2007 Kobe. Substantial. So again, not really a contest.


In summary: lol @ this dude posting BS numbers and thinking he'd get away with it. :oldlol: Like I said, prime/peak Kobe is about 90% of prime/peak Jordan, possibly a shade less than 90% if we're talking absolute peak season(s). I was actually being generous, as the numbers above prove.

Oh my...... this shit even hurt me.

:bowdown:

[Nevaeh]

See, here is where I beg to differ. I see Jordians becoming more hostile when the arguments do become more pro-Kobe. This has been fact since day one on ISH. It's even more apparent when even with my stance which has been unsided i've become labelled a Kobe stan. Because I say Kobe CAN be debated? It deosn't make me a stan. It makes me a sports fan. The way things go around here is that Kobe stans try to voice that Kobe can be better and Jordians try to put a censorship on it. Kobe stans get WAAAYYY more slack for their statements than vicesa versa


Okay then, here's your chance to set the record straight based on your "unsided" perception of things. What arguments do you see for Kobe being comparable to MJ as far as impact on the League? You don't even have to include accolades if you don't want to.

Because so far all I've heard from you is a bunch of whining about what other people think of MJ in relation to Kobe as far as career achievements and impact go. Someone picks Jordan over Kobe and you're mad about it, yet you're not even a fan of either player.....OK:oldlol:


Ahh, you've payed attention to my other threads. No, it's not close minded at all. In fact it's an arguable point for Jordan. But Jordains should not get butt hurt if somebody brought up Russell has won 11 (against Wilt Chamberlain) in merely 13 seasons. See what I'm saying?


It's not about being "butthurt" at all. You DO realize you're on an open (meaning non-team specific) NBA message board where people debate over various players right?

Lebron vs. Bird
Iverson vs. Thomas
Shaq vs. Wilt
Dirk vs. Bird

Ring any bells?



Again it's not. Because it IS subjective. In every case of sports debate, especially team sports there are so many factors that make it non-definitive.


OK then, if you actually believe that, then what does it matter to you if someone says "Player X is better than Player y"? You don't have a vested interest in the argument anyway. Just stay out of threads where debates are happening. Simple.



Like I've said before, I'm also a hockey fan, and Gretzky's gap of greatness well exceeds that of Jordan's in his own sport, yet arguing a Crosby, Lemiuex, Orr seems way more acceptable. Jordian's cannot accept it, especially with Kobe.

And this line right here proves you're nothing but a hypocrite because I can simply say "well your opinion is subjective" like you've been doing other posters regarding MJ. How do you know Gretzky had a bigger impact on hockey than Jordan did on the NBA? how would you prove it?



I've mention before is I haven't even taken a stance on who's better between Kobe and Jordan. In all honesty if you put a gun to my head I'll take Jordan. But because I've said Kobe is debatable it makes me a Kobe stan? Doesn't make sense. Again, there are good NBA Jordan fans. then there are the Jordians.

It's not about you being a stan for either player in your case. My point is if you have no vested interest in either player, then why are you so bent out of shape about people who do have a vested interest in Kobe or Jordan as fans?

That's like me having no interest in hockey at all (which I don't), yet I still get angry over people picking Gretzky as the Greatest Hockey Legend over Lemiuex. If people are debating those guys hey, more power to them :cheers:

[DaHeezy]

Okay then, here's your chance to set the record straight based on your "unsided" perception of things. What arguments do you see for Kobe being comparable to MJ as far as impact on the League? You don't even have to include accolades if you don't want to.[QUOTE]

I've already stated it in this tread. intangibles. That is always up fpr debate

[QUOTE]Because so far all I've heard from you is a bunch of whining about what other people think of MJ in relation to Kobe as far as career achievements and impact go. Someone picks Jordan over Kobe and you're mad about it, yet you're not even a fan of either player.....OK:oldlol:

You've completely misintepreted my POV. I've already stated I have no problem with a person picking Jordan over Kobe. Ido have a problem when a Jordain imposes himself with insults and so the other can't have a POV. Now before you continue on about me, please reread my statement


It's not about being "butthurt" at all. You DO realize you're on an open (meaning non-team specific) NBA message board where people debate over various players right?

Lebron vs. Bird
Iverson vs. Thomas
Shaq vs. Wilt
Dirk vs. Bird

Ring any bells?

And all these arguments seem to be more managable. I do invest in those threads and I can rnjoy them and generally they are more well thought out with respectable advisaries. If a Kobe and jordan thread played out the same way I'd be surprised




OK then, if you actually believe that, then what does it matter to you if someone says "Player X is better than Player y"? You don't have a vested interest in the argument anyway. Just stay out of threads where debates are happening. Simple.

It doesn't matter. In fact I like rationalized debates. that's why I joined this message board




And this line right here proves you're nothing but a hypocrite because I can simply say "well your opinion is subjective" like you've been doing other posters regarding MJ. How do you know Gretzky had a bigger impact on hockey than Jordan did on the NBA? how would you prove it?

You're entitled to that POV. But let's say I was like rsponded," You're a dumbass, Gretzky did this......." That makes me no better than a Jordian




It's not about you being a stan for either player in your case. My point is if you have no vested interest in either player, then why are you so bent out of shape about people who do have a vested interest in Kobe or Jordan as fans?

You obviously haven't been following what I said


That's like me having no interest in hockey at all (which I don't), yet I still get angry over people picking Gretzky as the Greatest Hockey Legend over Lemiuex. If people are debating those guys hey, more power to them :cheers:

And yet I'd still say you are entitled to that POV. As long as you can support it ratioanally without resorting to insulting someones intellegence. It's called sports and that's the beauty of it. It's all up for debate. But you have completely missed my point. No reasoning with you guy. You Da Man.

It doesn't matter what i've said because you've obviously taken your stance on my opinion which is completely wrong. I bet a a more rational poster would be able to point that out.

[Ne 1]

.....

Dude your making great points, but honestly your just wasting your time. The person your arguing with is a known Kobe hater and has some weird, borderline psychotic obsession with Kobe Bryant and Kobe/Laker fans.




YMF, still on that Defense Ratings kick, which still doesn't excuse nor explain Kobe's Goofy shot selection :oldlol:

Being a Kobe fan must be like having a woman who calls you a punk, cheats on you, runs up your credit card debt, won't cook or clean, but because she can give "good head", she's the "Greatest Woman In the World" to you. :oldlol:.



I can't stand him! He's peanut head chucker and he thinks he's all that.

[Smoke117]

Fatal9 just got owned so bad that he should be banned. Great post oldschool. Maybe I should stop arguing with you about pippen

Not to mention that 2007 is post rule change so Kobe had it a lot easier as far as scoring and still wasn't nearly as good.

[Nevaeh]

Dude your making great points, but honestly your just wasting your time. The person your arguing with is a known Kobe hater and has some weird, borderline psychotic obsession with Kobe Bryant and Kobe/Laker fans.

Nice try at making up that last quote punk. :oldlol: In THIS thread, which was titled "Happy 48 MJ" you stepped your ass in the thread trying to get sh!t started and got embarrassed like you always do. I called your GOD a "Peanut Head Azz Chucker" to be precise, unlike the b!tch way you're trying to make it appear. Funny you still remember that line though. Struck a nerve son? :lol

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209341&page=3


Quote:
NE1:

So we gonna act like nikkas wearing a jersey means anything?

These cac's don't know sh*t. I remember going to the bar with a pirates fitted cap and some white dude approached me like I was actually a fan of the team.

Just look at bow wow. He said ''Kobe is average'' but look at the jersey he got on:



Originally Posted By Nevaeh:

It's not about Bow Wow. It's about how you Kobe Stans can't keep your narrow azzes out of threads that have nothing to do with him. The thread title is "Happy 48 Michael Jordan" PERIOD. Now, if it was " 48 MJ vs. 32 Kobe" I can see a point.

But you guys insist on f@cking up any and every thread with that peanut head azz chucker, and in the process, continue to get served in threads that could've been peaceful. Nobody mentioned Kobe, made any comparisons or anything. Your right hand man NoName needs to get therapy with that level of hatred he has for Mike, straight up.

As far as Kobe in the MJ jersey, the point is kobe looked up to Mike, and everybody knows it. If you calling Kobe God, Ima let you know where your God got got his swag from The pics wouldn't have been brought out had your boy kept his mouth shut. If you don't like MJ cool, but the personal attacks are getting ridiculous.

Called that n!gga that sh!t one time, and you're still sore about it.

Oh yeah, your GOD didn't quite make it to 6 this year either now DID HE??


Originally Posted By: NE1:

http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2010/06/ipt/1276856805.jpg

http://www.horschgallery.com/admin/uploads/Products/Product159/2655_THAM.JPG

1 more to go.


From that same thread By The Way...........:rolleyes: