Kareem's open letter to scottie Pippen for his Comments about Lebron

[Theoo's Daddy]

http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-questions-scottie-pippens-argument-that-lebron-james-may-be-the-greatest-player-.html


In a nearly two-week span, former Lakers center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar went from questioning the Lakers' loyalty to questioning Scottie Pippen's claim that LeBron James "may be the greatest player to ever play."

After arguing that the Lakers' failure to honor him with a statue serves as an example of the team disrespecting him, the NBA's all-time leading scorer is now arguing Pippen's willingness to prop up James on the heels of the Heat-Mavericks NBA Finals matchup reflects his lack of appreciation for NBA greats such as Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell and even Pippen's former teammate, Michael Jordan himself.

You may agree with Abdul-Jabbar's assessment that a statue honoring him is long overdue and that he holds the credibility to question Pippen's knowledge on NBA history. You may disagree with the tactics, believing his public gripes about the Lakers come off as sour grapes and chastising Pippen comes across as bullying. But it still makes for interesting reading.

So without further ado, here is Abdul-Jabbar's open letter to Pippen, which was recently obtained by The Times:



How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell

[andgar923]

Here we go.

I Love his signature f*ckin epic.

[Bigsmoke]

Kareem can eat a dick.

MJ is the best scorer ever.

those ****** Wilt played aganist when he was averaging 50ppg would barely be in the D-league in todays game. Dont forget that he was playing 48.5 minutes a night.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

[QUOTE=Theoo's Daddy]http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-questions-scottie-pippens-argument-that-lebron-james-may-be-the-greatest-player-.html


Affectionately,
[B]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA

[Kurosawa0]

So, Kareem thinks Wilt was better than he was too? This stuff is just getting silly.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Kareem can eat a dick.

MJ is the best scorer ever.

those ****** Wilt played aganist when he was averaging 50ppg would barely be in the D-league in todays game. Dont forget that he was playing 48.5 minutes a night.
:eek:

[Doranku]

F*cking LOL @ his signature.

[kaiiu]

Meh. Wilt wouldnt crack a D-league roster today

[lakers_forever]

[QUOTE=Theoo's Daddy]
Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA

[lakers_forever]

Meh. Wilt wouldnt crack a D-league roster today

Stop smoking that shite

[Bigsmoke]

:eek:

... who is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBqhaa-p_DM

[OriginalNameGuy]

Michael is the best, KAJ is just a bitter old man

[Bigsmoke]

Stop smoking that shite

nah kaiiu is keeping it 100

****ing Wilt played again 6'8 white boys 49 minutes a night and get fame out of it.

[High Roller]

lol at Kareem implying that the reduced amount of teams actually means accolades were more impressive due to the league's talent in the dark ages. Pretty sickening that he also implies that he ranks Wilt and Russell over Jordan too.

[dynasty1978]

Tell 'em CAP! That's captain for the kiddos unware of Kareem's nickname :applause: .

[kaiiu]

The only thing I respect about Wilt is he fvcked all dem hoes.

[jlip]

Is this letter real?

[lakers_forever]

nah kaiiu is keeping it 100

****ing Wilt played again 6'8 white boys 49 minutes a night and give fame out of it.

Speak english, please. MJ played against a bunch of 6'3 black guys. I can do that too.

[juju151111]

BS i respect Kareem has a top 3 player ever, btu GTFO. Mj postseason avg is higher then Wilt's and Wilt played in a way faster pace league. Wilt isn't scoring a 100 today with rule changes/Pace. Kareem stay off that pipe. LOL at 25rpg that shit not happening in todays league.

[Yung D-Will]

Lmao. The comments about Wilt in this thread would make it seem like Kareem didn't play Wilt when he was way past his prime and that Wilt didn't still avg more rebounds in those season and keep up with Kareem head to head after his body had broken down.

Clearly since Kareem played against a past prime WIlt and called him the best scorer (even though he was past his prime) That means somethin

[Bigsmoke]

Speak english, please. MJ played against a bunch of 6'3 black guys. I can do that too.

***** Kobe raped bitches that arent even that tall.

so chu' trying to say B'?

[FKAri]

If this is real then it's interesting because Kareem has played in Wilt's twilight era right through to 1989. Therefore the most accurate claim he can make is out of every player he played with during his NBA tenure, Wilt was the most impressive.


Lmao. The comments about Wilt in this thread would make it seem like Kareem didn't play Wilt when he was way past his prime and that Wilt didn't still avg more rebounds in those season and keep up with Kareem head to head after his body had broken down.

Clearly since Kareem played against a past prime WIlt and called him the best scorer (even though he was past his prime) That means somethin

Oh my bad. someone already said it.

[BarberSchool]

[QUOTE=Theoo's Daddy]Dear Scottie,

Wilt, Bill Russel, and I, are >>>>>> all y'all n!ggas.

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
[B]NBA

[brownmamba00]

The GOAT has spoken. :bowdown:

[Rasheed1]

Both Wilt and Kareem were 2 of the best to ever play.. kareem when he came out of college was straight up awesome to see do his thing, and there are no words to describe what Wilt was doing in his prime... The numbers are soo ridiculous that they give you the best idea of the difference between Wilt and everyone else..

cant be mad if Kareem wants to put that out there :confusedshrug:

the idea of the greatest scorer means different things to different people.. I would say Mj is the best player and scorer to ever play, but I didnt see Wilt at all and I only saw kareem as a Laker.. He was a bit slow and leanin on his signature move alot by the time I could watch and analyze what he was doin out there.

[LBJ4MVP23]

nah kaiiu is keeping it 100

****ing Wilt played again 6'8 white boys 49 minutes a night and get fame out of it.

So what's your reasoning for how Wilt was able to cap on Kareem, who was able to ball against Hakeem, that proceeded to then destroy the best era of centers ever?

I guess basketball got good 15 years ago? Some magical jump with ZERO progression, just overnight changes. The fact is the stats are inflated, sure, but the great ones transcend eras.

20 years from now Jordan will still be Jordan. Remember that people.

[jlip]

Again, if this is real, I have been waiting on some of the pre Jordan GOAT candidates to chime in on this issue. Whether you agree with him or not, I like the fact that Kareem is outspoken like this. His letter is really not about Pippen's comments in particular. Actually it has nothing to even do with Lebron. He feels that the post 80's b-ball fan has propped up modern players, especially MJ, at the expense of previous greats.

[kaiiu]

So what's your reasoning for how Wilt was able to cap on Kareem, who was able to ball against Hakeem, that proceeded to then destroy the best era of centers ever?

I guess basketball got good 15 years ago? Some magical jump with ZERO progression, just overnight changes. The fact is the stats are inflated, sure, but the great ones transcend eras.

20 years from now Jordan will still be Jordan. Remember that people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fNFWa6bTMoA

[KingBeasley08]

[QUOTE=Theoo's Daddy]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA

[catch24]

Who has the most 30, 40 and 50+ point games in the playoffs? Oh, that's right, Michael Jordan. lol at Wilt being the greatest scorer, never mind the all around (something Kareem ignored in Pipp's claim) greatest player. LeBron has the opportunity to go down as one of the best players of all-time; not sure why Kareem is so bitter.

[bdreason]

Kareem really isn't making sense. In one sentence he claims Wilt is the GOAT because of what are obviously skewed statistics. Then he follows it up be claiming it's all about championships, and stats don't mean shit. :confusedshrug:



I agree with Kareem's sentiment, that auto-crowning MJ the GOAT is lame... and assuming LeBron is going to challenge for the title of GOAT is incredibly presumptuous. However, the arguments he makes stale and contradictory.



And Kareem should have just said what he really thinks; that he's the greatest of all time, and he's the one who feels slighted when people auto-crown MJ.

[Scholar]

Meh. Wilt wouldnt crack a D-league roster today
:rolleyes:

[blablabla]

nah kaiiu is keeping it 100

****ing Wilt played again 6'8 white boys 49 minutes a night and get fame out of it.
mj also played in one of the worst eras of the nba

[Duncan21formvp]

Kareem, here is something for you to consider in the playoffs

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 81
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Wilt played more playoff games than West and Baylor and yet Baylor both have more 30+ point games than Wilt. Not only that but Wilt only has 13 games of 40+ in the playoffs when West has more.

[catch24]

Kareem, here is something for you to consider in the playoffs

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 81
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Wilt played more playoff games than West and Baylor and yet Baylor both have more 30+ point games than Wilt. Not only that but Wilt only has 13 games of 40+ in the playoffs when West has more.

While I enjoy watching Kareem highlights from his heyday, it's almost cringe-worthy to hear his comments of late. He talks about Pippen having a 'limited perspective' yet didn't once take into consideration what you or I posted.

Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? :roll:

[Haymaker]

http://www.democracyfornewmexico.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/02/sourgrapes1_2.jpg

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ Kareem acting like Jordan doesn't have as good a case as anyone, or even have a case, for GOAT. Dude is bitter. Pippen should mail him back a "U MAD?" pic. :oldlol:

[Mr. Jabbar]

:bowdown:

[az00m]

Terrible sentence structure. This has to be fake.

[G.O.A.T]

It is real. Hard to believe, but real.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/31/kareem-writes-open-letter-to-pippen-about-lebron-jordan/

Kareem is on the super-bitter war path lately.

It is nice to see him remind people how much better the eight team league was.

I still can't believe how many people don't understand that less teams = better competition.

It's a non-debatable fact.

[ChandlerParsons]

kareem cheated in college, that is why he dumb
but now I was looking at his Career Achievements... G.O.A.T :lol :lol :lol

[Ne 1]

lol @ Kareem acting like Jordan doesn't have as good a case as anyone, or even have a case, for GOAT. Dude is bitter. Pippen should mail him back a "U MAD?" pic. :oldlol:

In fairness, he didnt say either of those guys were the GOAT. What he did say is that they shouldnt be forgotten like people have forgotten them... Jordan is not the unquestioned GOAT, and should never be considered that.

Check what Bob Ryan says about the GOAT players... it should be centers vs. everyone else... if you had a chance to build a team, you look for a great center first... simple as that...

[Scoooter]

That signature is so ****ing badass. Never knew Kareem had so much respect for Wilt. I thought they didn't like each other. :applause:

[ThaRegul8r]

Never knew Kareem had so much respect for Wilt. I thought they didn't like each other. :applause:

I fail to see what one has to do with the other. I can not like a guy, but that doesn't mean I can't respect how good he is at what he does. Feelings are subjective. How good a person is at what they do is objective fact. A lot of people have a problem where emotions get in the way of objectivity.

[ErhnamDjinn]

what I cant believe in this whole episode is why did Scottie dick ride Lebrons coattails, as talented as Lebron is he stil hasnt won jacksh!t, so how can he claim anything, for all we know Lebron will never win anything, heck if Lebron and Wade played in the old school NBA they would be retired by 30 from all the injuries due to the physical nature of the game. Plus Lebron is not really a fundamental type of basketball player, he looks akward when dribbling he doesnt really have a solid shot, and dominates due to sheer physical and athletic attributes.

[TylerOO]

Kareem is a ******* lmao!!!!!!!

[PHILA]

I thought they didn't like each other.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EXo5W-9Bd8#t=5m58s

If I'm not mistaken that feud began around the time Wilt supported Nixon in '68. Of course during Kareem's HS years they were good friends.


http://i.imgur.com/6uYR0.jpg

[jlip]

what I cant believe in this whole episode is why did Scottie dick ride Lebrons coattails, as talented as Lebron is he stil hasnt won jacksh!t, so how can he claim anything, for all we know Lebron will never win anything, heck if Lebron and Wade played in the old school NBA they would be retired by 30 from all the injuries due to the physical nature of the game. Plus Lebron is not really a fundamental type of basketball player, he looks akward when dribbling he doesnt really have a solid shot, and dominates due to sheer physical and athletic attributes.

You do realize that Pippen's original comments had absolutely NOTHING to do with championships or career achievements. His comments, whether you agree or disagree, were totally about all around play and abilities on the court.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Check what Bob Ryan says about the GOAT players... it should be centers vs. everyone else... if you had a chance to build a team, you look for a great center first... simple as that...
I vehmently disagree.

[Anaximandro1]

[QUOTE=Theoo's Daddy]

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
[B]NBA

[Batz]

***** Kobe raped bitches that arent even that tall.

so chu' trying to say B'?
Oh, this forum...

[Harison]

Kareem is carrying on Wilts last wish: "Never let them forget how great we were" :pimp:

IMHO people took way too literally what Pippen said, and gave too much attention to what was a simple prop after few great games. Overreaction is rampant here as well. Rose went to hero and then back to zero faster than falling star. Lebron was suppose to chalenge MJ for GOAT, and then we had "Quitness. We all were witnesses." Now again Lebron is flavor of the month.

[28renyoy]

Good god the majority of LeBron fans are complete dumbasses. Jesus these guys don't even speak english.

[STATUTORY]

Lettuce be real this was more KAJ telling MJ fans that they must have forgot

[Soothing Layup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcYSpvdAx8Q

*****'s check it.

[rmt]

Pippen has no business mentioning Lebron's name in any GOAT conversation. Lebron has done nothing yet. It is disrespectful to the other all time greats to be spouting stuff like that.

KAJ, however, is coming across as sour grapes with his statue and other comments. The best thing to do is take the high road and say nothing (let your accomplishments speak for themselves).

[Ne 1]

Pippen has no business mentioning Lebron's name in any GOAT conversation. Lebron has done nothing yet. It is disrespectful to the other all time greats to be spouting stuff like that.


What Pippen said was that LeBron has the POTENTIAL to be the greatest.

[bagelred]

Pippen has no business mentioning Lebron's name in any GOAT conversation. Lebron has done nothing yet.

Since MJ retired, there are only two guys who had/have the POTENTIAL to be the GOAT. Those are Kobe and Lebron. That doesn't mean they are. But how often does a guy come along where you say "This guy COULD be the best ever." So far....only two since MJ.

Also, Russell got 11 championships when there were only 8 to 10 teams. much much easier......than competing against 30 teams.

[Mr. Jabbar]

KAJ got upset by the trolling. :bowdown:

[Ne 1]

Since MJ retired, there are only two guys who had/have the POTENTIAL to be the GOAT. Those are Kobe and Lebron. That doesn't mean they are. But how often does a guy come along where you say "This guy COULD be the best ever." So far....only two since MJ.

Also, Russell got 11 championships when there were only 8 to 10 teams. much much easier......than competing against 30 teams.

Shaq also had GOAT potential, if we are talking about "GOAT level" players since the Jordan era.

Also less teams means that talent is less spread out.

[bagelred]

Shaq also had GOAT potential.

Also less teams means that talent is less spread out.

Forgot about Shaq....but its so hard to compare perimeters players and big men.

It's like comparing pitchers and hitters in baseball. Is Cy Young better than Babe Ruth? How do you compare?

[Ne 1]

Forgot about Shaq....but its so hard to compare perimeters players and big men.

It's like comparing pitchers and hitters in baseball. Is Cy Young better than Babe Ruth? How do you compare?

True, that's a good point. Like I said earlier check out what Bob Ryan says about the GOAT players... it should be centers vs. everyone else... if you had a chance to build a team, you look for a great center first.

What he does is rank the "GOAT level" big men and then separately rank "GOAT level" non bigs.

[DirtySanchez]

Love his sig.

But hey makes great points. I never thought about how 8 teams a long time a go meant the NBA had better comp because the talent was not spread through out 30 teams. But to argue against that we can say player are more talented now and there are more people playing the game which means there is a wider range of talent?

Any how any argument saying LeBron is the greatest player of all time is really jumping the shark. Between Kareem, MJ, and Wilt is debatable.

[CJ Mustard]

Since MJ retired, there are only two guys who had/have the POTENTIAL to be the GOAT. Those are Kobe and Lebron. That doesn't mean they are. But how often does a guy come along where you say "This guy COULD be the best ever." So far....only two since MJ.

Also, Russell got 11 championships when there were only 8 to 10 teams. much much easier......than competing against 30 teams.Add Shaq and Duncan to that list.

[Roundball_Rock]

And Kareem should have just said what he really thinks; that he's the greatest of all time, and he's the one who feels slighted when people auto-crown MJ.

http://www.tigergamingbingo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/bingo-games.gif

What Kareem, the GOAT, is really doing is knock down Jordan to indirectly elevate himself. It is about time, though, the media always stating MJ is the GOAT as a fact is questioned by a luminary.

[Derka]

I think if anyone's allowed to do this and get away with it, Kareem's the guy.

His statue thing was a complete crock, but he's got some good points on this one.

[Fatal9]

Kareem is jelly of Scottie's new statue.

[eazyduzzit10]

Kareem can eat a dick.

MJ is the best scorer ever.

those ****** Wilt played aganist when he was averaging 50ppg would barely be in the D-league in todays game. Dont forget that he was playing 48.5 minutes a night.
This is why you can't compare eras, because maybe the players back in Wilts time would be playing D-league today, but at that very time, those were the best athletes the world had to offer, they were the cream of the crop at that time and Wilt/Russell dominated whoever was put in front of them. MJ is my favourite player but it's unfair to discredit those guys because they were so much better than their opposition. KAJ played against both MJ and Wilt so he's entitled to state his opinion

[D.J.]

[QUOTE]Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA

[DCL]

kareem is probably the most insecure legend ever.

but that's because everyone's hopping on lebron's d!ck, and he feels he's been forgotten.

[Harison]

Also, Russell got 11 championships when there were only 8 to 10 teams. much much easier......than competing against 30 teams.
Not entirely true. Stacked teams battling stacked teams is more challenging than stacked teams beating scrubs for most of the season.

Lets say:

CP3/Wade/Lebron/Gasol/Bynum

battling teams like:

Rondo/Kobe/Pierce/Dirk/Dwight

Is it really easier than: Heat '11 beating Bulls '11? Not really.

What concerns me, I would rather see NBA with 16 teams and more concentrated talent than diluted league.

[Psileas]

I like guys like Kareem and Russell, who don't give a damn about p.c and state their opinions with no fear, but I find it hard to believe he praised Wilt like this, when it's known that they disliked each other, at least when Wilt was alive. Makes it hard to realize what he truly believes and that's a reason I don't put much stock on opinions and quotes.

"Insecure", some claim. Remember when Jordan gave his HOF speech? And how people claimed "he's the GOAT, so he's entitled to say whatever he wants"? Double standards, maybe?

[DirtySanchez]

I like guys like Kareem and Russell, who don't give a damn about p.c and state their opinions with no fear, but I find it hard to believe he praised Wilt like this, when it's known that they disliked each other, at least when Wilt was alive. Makes it hard to realize what he truly believes and that's a reason I don't put much stock on opinions and quotes.

"Insecure", some claim. Remember when Jordan gave his HOF speech? And how people claimed "he's the GOAT, so he's entitled to say whatever he wants"? Double standards, maybe?

They really hated each other that much?

I don't think so. But then again everybody seems to have something against Kareem for some reason.

[JohnnySic]

[QUOTE]Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
[B]NBA

[OriginalNameGuy]

[QUOTE=Theoo's Daddy]http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-questions-scottie-pippens-argument-that-lebron-james-may-be-the-greatest-player-.html





Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
[B]NBA

[raptorfan_dr07]

Not sure what's so bad about this? :confusedshrug: If anyone has the right to speak their mind on this issue, surely it's Kareem. I don't get the feeling that he's bitter over Scottie calling Jordan the GOAT. More so that he's trying to remind people that there were other great players who did some amazing things during their careers, not just Jordan. And he's 100% right about that. I've become of the idea that the greatest player of all time is a matter of personal preference. Some say it's Jordan. Others say Kareem. Some even say Russell or Wilt. There's an argument to be made for each of them with nobody being right or wrong. It's all personal preference. Obviously though, when someone mentions a player that's just ridiculous such as Lebron, it's to be expected that, that comment will be met with ridicule. Much respect to Kareem for this letter. :cheers:

[poido123]

Kareem sounds insecure like the little children of ISH :rolleyes:

When bringing up stats, it doesn't tell the whole story, and although Jordan doesn't stack up to some of those extraordinary stats that Wilt, Kareem and other greats did, Jordan's legacy as GOAT comes from his finals performances, coming out of retirement to win another 3 championships, the level of competition he had to get there, just a whole heap of remarkeable things that stack up to something that reads more than just stats...

Kareem deserves that statue, whether he's being an ass about it or not. Magic has one, it's time for Kareem to have one too, he deserves it.

[Kobe24Clutch]

Greatest scorer ever? it's hard to say because Wilt was being guarded by midget white guys, and Jordan was guarded by midgets as well, so i'll have to say Kobe greatest scorer ever. :rockon: besides MJ Today = Poor man's Tony Allen.:confusedshrug:

[jlauber]

So, Kareem thinks Wilt was better than he was too? This stuff is just getting silly.

Just a jaw-dropping letter. I have long maintained that a PRIME Chamberlain would have abused Kareem. And now even he seems to be agreeing with me.

[FireDavidKahn]

[QUOTE]How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell

[StarJordan]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

fuking kareem abdul pabdul rabdul kiss your own ass you ugly fuking fool...jordan would have owned your fuking all points points record had he not decided to take time off from 94,95,99,2000,2001....in those 5 years he would have blown past your fuking record who nobody gives a flying *** about anyway...the alltime scoring leader is Jordan and only Jordan...both in regular season and the playoffs!

[DixieNourmous]

Kareem = GOAT


Ish kids have no idea because they never witnessed Kareem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

[DixieNourmous]

fuking kareem abdul pabdul rabdul kiss your own ass you ugly fuking fool...jordan would have owned your fuking all points points record had he not decided to take time off from 94,95,99,2000,2001....in those 5 years he would have blown past your fuking record who nobody gives a flying *** about anyway...the alltime scoring leader is Jordan and only Jordan...both in regular season and the playoffs!\

typical post in ISH.. 12 year old typing unreadable sh1t.

Perfect example of deterioration on this board.

[Ne 1]

fuking kareem abdul pabdul rabdul kiss your own ass you ugly fuking fool...jordan would have owned your fuking all points points record had he not decided to take time off from 94,95,99,2000,2001....in those 5 years he would have blown past your fuking record who nobody gives a flying *** about anyway...the alltime scoring leader is Jordan and only Jordan...both in regular season and the playoffs!


Excuses. It's nobody's fault but Jordan's that he was suspended by Stern from 94-95.

[jlauber]

\

typical post in ISH.. 12 year old typing unreadable sh1t.

Perfect example of deterioration on this board.

I'm not sure he/she is even that old. Looks like the typing of a first-grader.

[jlauber]

" the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics"

Which is why Wilt isn't in the discussion, Kareem isn't taking his own advice...


What the hell is wrong with this guy? He has been coming off like a huge jackass lately

Glad to see that you have Russell as the greatest player of all-time...and by a landslide.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Greatest scorer ever? it's hard to say because Wilt was being guarded by midget white guys, and Jordan was guarded by midgets as well, so i'll have to say Kobe greatest scorer ever. :rockon: besides MJ Today = Poor man's Tony Allen.:confusedshrug:
Latrell Sprewell Today=poor man's Kobe Bryant

[moe94]

I still don't believe he wrote this. It seems so amateur, like a troll posting on ISH, complete with the gloating signature. Is this guy serious? What does he gain from this? End of the day, people do not see his game (and all centers really) as being aesthetically pleasing and that has a lot to do with people's perception of greatness. Jordan's game had beauty and mastery that captivated people whereas KAJ game consisted of boring 2 point plays. Even LeBron, who some consider to play a boring game, is a lot more fascinating to watch than KAJ ever was.

[DJ Leon Smith]

I agree with the people saying Wilt would do nothing in today's era.

Could you imagine him against the non-white BEASTS who led the league in rebounds and blocks this season? He'd get dominated!

[Sarcastic]

I agree with the people saying Wilt would do nothing in today's era.

Could you imagine him against the non-white BEASTS who led the league in rebounds and blocks this season? He'd get dominated!

Kevin Love led the league in rebounding.


I am sure Love would dominate Wilt on the boards. :rolleyes:
/end sarcasm

[moe94]

The irony in your name knows no bounds.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Kevin Love led the league in rebounding.


I am sure Love would dominate Wilt on the boards. :rolleyes:
/end sarcasm

http://thefacepalmfiles.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/lebron-and-wade.jpg

[G.O.A.T]

" the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics"

Which is why Wilt isn't in the discussion, Kareem isn't taking his own advice...


What the hell is wrong with this guy? He has been coming off like a huge jackass lately

The Wilt comments were in regards to Pippen saying LeBron was passing Jordan as the greatest scorer of all-time.

Kareem is saying that Wilt is the greatest scorer ever and Russell the greatest winner ever.


Kevin Love led the league in rebounding.


I am sure Love would dominate Wilt on the boards. :rolleyes:
/end sarcasm

You should change your name to ironic.

Who led the league in blocks?

[guy]

Love his sig.

But hey makes great points. I never thought about how 8 teams a long time a go meant the NBA had better comp because the talent was not spread through out 30 teams. But to argue against that we can say player are more talented now and there are more people playing the game which means there is a wider range of talent?


Its so ridiculously stupid how people overlook this fact when they say teams back then were deeper cause of less teams.

[GOBB]

Not reading entire thread. But besides in the NBA, did Wilt and Kareem ever play one another prior to that? Be it at a pickup game, Rucker park?

[comerb]

Kareem is awful salty in his old age.

[GOBB]

Kareem is awful salty in his old age.

How is he salty?

[GOBB]

" the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics"

Which is why Wilt isn't in the discussion, Kareem isn't taking his own advice...


What the hell is wrong with this guy? He has been coming off like a huge jackass lately

Wilt never won a ring?

[memetherapy]

I hope he never gets his damn statue... dude is bitter as ****. His argument is all over the place... I feel like he's like a deluded creationist type when it comes to basketball arguments... did Jordan ever score 100? We all know rings is what matters... 8 teams somehow means more competition even though since then the number of people playing the game has exploded? Dude... you can argue that Scottie might most probably be wrong, but what are we supposed to do as basketball fans? Sitting twiddling our fingers acting like everything was so great in the good ol' days... I've heard this speech before...and it always came from some sour old farts.

[guy]

I like guys like Kareem and Russell, who don't give a damn about p.c and state their opinions with no fear, but I find it hard to believe he praised Wilt like this, when it's known that they disliked each other, at least when Wilt was alive. Makes it hard to realize what he truly believes and that's a reason I don't put much stock on opinions and quotes.

"Insecure", some claim. Remember when Jordan gave his HOF speech? And how people claimed "he's the GOAT, so he's entitled to say whatever he wants"? Double standards, maybe?

I never understood what the big deal about Jordan's HOF speech. It was his speech and alot of it was just him trying to be funny. You really think he's insecure about Bryon Russell and Jeff Van Gundy?

On the other hand, this came completely out of left field, after just recently Kareem made himself already look bitter and insecure. Not to mention contradicting himself by mentioning stats then saying stats dont matter only rings do, and acting completely ignorant about how stats have changed over the eras. I don't understand how anyone can read that and not think of it as completely pathetic.

[Psileas]

I never understood what the big deal about Jordan's HOF speech. It was his speech and alot of it was just him trying to be funny. You really think he's insecure about Bryon Russell and Jeff Van Gundy?
On the other hand, this came completely out of left field, after just recently Kareem made himself already look bitter and insecure. Not to mention contradicting himself by mentioning stats then saying stats dont matter only rings do, and acting completely ignorant about how stats have changed over the eras. I don't understand how anyone can read that and not think of it as completely pathetic.

Russell and Jeff V, maybe not, but he did sound spiteful towards some guys: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-jordanhall091209

[colts19]

Not sure what's so bad about this? :confusedshrug: If anyone has the right to speak their mind on this issue, surely it's Kareem. I don't get the feeling that he's bitter over Scottie calling Jordan the GOAT. More so that he's trying to remind people that there were other great players who did some amazing things during their careers, not just Jordan. And he's 100% right about that. I've become of the idea that the greatest player of all time is a matter of personal preference. Some say it's Jordan. Others say Kareem. Some even say Russell or Wilt. There's an argument to be made for each of them with nobody being right or wrong. It's all personal preference. Obviously though, when someone mentions a player that's just ridiculous such as Lebron, it's to be expected that, that comment will be met with ridicule. Much respect to Kareem for this letter. :cheers:

I have to agree with this, and it is very well put. I think anyone who says Kareem isn't in the discussion for GOAT, must have some agenda of there own. I saw Jordan play and think he is one of the all time great's but this thing of him being GOAT and if you don't think he is your a complete idiot, well I just don't get it.

There is no GOAT. Only people in the discussion.
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Walton

[Ol Dirty Bastard]

Kareem is a fool with that Sig :oldlol:

[guy]

Russell and Jeff V, maybe not, but he did sound spiteful towards some guys: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-jordanhall091209

He prefaced his speech saying he wasn't going to have the same normal speech everyone else had by talking about his whole life story cause everyone already knew it, so he would only talk about his motivations and he tried to make it funny at the same time. He talked about Isiah, Magic, and Gervin allegedly icing him out and how it motivated him, but he didn't disrespect them. He joked about Dean Smith, Jerry Reinsdorf, Phil Jackson and Tex Winter but not in a disrespectful. Then he made fun of Riley, JVG, Leroy Smith, Russell, but all in a lighthearted joking way. He jokingly made light of the high expectations of his kids. He also praised and gave thanks to his parents, Dean Smith, Jerry Reinsdorf, Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, Scottie Pippen, and a few others. The only person who he really disrespected and bitter towards was Jerry Krause. What difference does that make? He always hated Krause, and he's always worn on that on his sleeve. And almost everyone in that organization hated Krause except for Reinsdorf. And yes he was bitter, but you can argue that he had every right to be for his attempts and eventual success of dismantling that dynasty too early. Jordan's HOF speech is so blown out of proportion because he's Michael Jordan and the media will hang on to his every word. If that Clyde Drexler, no one would even remember it.

If Jordan was really insecure about his legacy, he would be the one writing letters about how he's better then today's stars like Lebron and Kobe, and that he was better then his peers at the time like Bird and Magic, and that he was better then guys before him like Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. He's NEVER came out and said something like that. He's never actually even called himself the GOAT.

Thats completely different from what Kareem did. He was bitter and insecure, which now he's shown a history of. What's even worse is his contradictions about stats and how important they are, and then trying mislead people by using raw stats to support his argument and implying they are comparable across eras, which they are clearly not. And Kareem seems to be a smart man, and I'm sure he knows that stats argument is idiotic across eras. Seriously, reading that letter makes me think of some of the idiotic trolls that come across this forum.

[jlauber]

Thats completely different from what Kareem did. He was bitter and insecure, which now he's shown a history of. What's even worse is his contradictions about stats and how important they are, and then trying mislead people by using raw stats to support his argument and implying they are comparable across eras, which they are clearly not. And Kareem seems to be a smart man, and I'm sure he knows that stats argument is idiotic across eras. Seriously, reading that letter makes me think of some of the idiotic trolls that come across this forum.

I get so tired of these comments about eras and pace. The game is still played on the same size court, same size hoop, and with roughly the same-sized ball that it was in 1960. And these "paceologists" use some RIDICULOUS math that states that a player like a '62 Wilt would only be a 25-13 guy in today's NBA. Just pure poppycock. Rebounds are roughly 70% in today's game over the PEAK season of Wilt's career, and scoring is about 85% of what it was in the NBA in the early 60%. And, those numbers declined every year after that, although not significantly. Not only that, but if anything, the players of the 60's were at a huge disadvantage in terms of scheduling and travel...not to mention bald basketballs, and ice-cold and breezy gyms.

BUT, if everyone is going to say that the players of the 60's would not be the same in TODAY's NBA, then the same could certainly be said of Jordan, as well.

To be honest, the greatest basketball player of all-time is Lebron James. After all, we KNOW that he is the best player in the world RIGHT NOW. He would murder Russell, Kareem, Bird, and MJ in a game RIGHT NOW. So, of these "paceologists" are going to target Wilt's, Oscar's, and even Kareem's stats, then they have to do the same to even Shaq's. Look at Shaq TODAY. Hell, I could probably beat him in a game of one-on-one today.

Geezus, I could argue that it was WILT who forced the NBA to play at a much faster pace. When he came into the league in the 59-60 season, the NBA had averaged 108 ppg the year before. It IMMEDIATELY jumped to 116 ppg in his FIRST season...and HE was a MAJOR reason for that. A 7-1 SPRINTER that could go full-out for 48 minutes. And it remained above 110-115 for most of his career. And after he retired, the league QUICKLY went downhill in terms of scoring. In fact, in his second-to-last season, the NBA averaged 110 ppg, BUT, WILT's Lakers averaged 121 ppg. CLEARLY, Wilt was one of the key reasons why scoring was as high as it was. He retired after the 72-73 season, and in 73-74 it was 105.7 ppg and the very next year (74-75) it was 102.6 ppg.

In any case, let's either accept ALL of the RECORDS, which were HARD-EARNED...or just throw the Record Book away before each season starts, and proclaim whoever leads the league in scoring in THAT season, as THE greatest scorer of all-time (or until the next season, when we start all over again.) The point is...there is just no way of determining when the game became what it is TODAY. If you argue 1980, I could give you a list of players who played better in the 70's, but, were STILL great in the 80's...and vice versa. The game has SLOWLY evolved to where it is TODAY. So, if Wilt didn't have the greatest scoring season in NBA history, then MJ didn't have the highest scoring post-season season, either. They BOTH played YEARS ago.

[guy]

I get so tired of these comments about eras and pace. The game is still played on the same size court, same size hoop, and with roughly the same-sized ball that it was in 1960. And these "paceologists" use some RIDICULOUS math that states that a player like a '62 Wilt would only be a 25-13 guy in today's NBA. Just pure poppycock. Rebounds are roughly 70% in today's game over the PEAK season of Wilt's career, and scoring is about 85% of what it was in the NBA in the early 60%. And, those numbers declined every year after that, although not significantly. Not only that, but if anything, the players of the 60's were at a huge disadvantage in terms of scheduling and travel...not to mention bald basketballs, and ice-cold and breezy gyms.

BUT, if everyone is going to say that the players of the 60's would not be the same in TODAY's NBA, then the same could certainly be said of Jordan, as well.

To be honest, the greatest basketball player of all-time is Lebron James. After all, we KNOW that he is the best player in the world RIGHT NOW. He would murder Russell, Kareem, Bird, and MJ in a game RIGHT NOW. So, of these "paceologists" are going to target Wilt's, Oscar's, and even Kareem's stats, then they have to do the same to even Shaq's. Look at Shaq TODAY. Hell, I could probably beat him in a game of one-on-one today.

Geezus, I could argue that it was WILT who forced the NBA to play at a much faster pace. When he came into the league in the 59-60 season, the NBA had averaged 108 ppg the year before. It IMMEDIATELY jumped to 116 ppg in his FIRST season...and HE was a MAJOR reason for that. A 7-1 SPRINTER that could go full-out for 48 minutes. And it remained above 110-115 for most of his career. And after he retired, the league QUICKLY went downhill in terms of scoring. In fact, in his second-to-last season, the NBA averaged 110 ppg, BUT, WILT's Lakers averaged 121 ppg. CLEARLY, Wilt was one of the key reasons why scoring was as high as it was. He retired after the 72-73 season, and in 73-74 it was 105.7 ppg and the very next year (74-75) it was 102.6 ppg.

In any case, let's either accept ALL of the RECORDS, which were HARD-EARNED...or just throw the Record Book away before each season starts, and proclaim whoever leads the league in scoring in THAT season, as THE greatest scorer of all-time (or until the next season, when we start all over again.) The point is...there is just no way of determining when the game became what it is TODAY. If you argue 1980, I could give you a list of players who played better in the 70's, but, were STILL great in the 80's...and vice versa. The game has SLOWLY evolved to where it is TODAY. So, if Wilt didn't have the greatest scoring season in NBA history, then MJ didn't have the highest scoring post-season season, either. They BOTH played YEARS ago.

Records are records. Numbers are numbers. No one is saying erase the record books. The point is statistics should be taken into context meaning taking account such thing as the era (specifically the style of play at the time), the role of the player on that team, etc. You are crazy if you think the game has not changed that much over the years. And by the way, yes its true that with the cold gyms and more difficult travel, things weren't as convenient back but no one was at a disadvantage since EVERYONE else was going through the same thing. Thats not a disadvantage.

I don't care if Kareem thinks Wilt or Russell are the GOAT, but to use the argument that "OMG HE AVERAGED 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season" is very misleading and implies that the difference between those stats and the stats of every other player in history is 100% a function of superior ability, which its not. There's other significant circumstances that go into that, and I'm pretty sure most will agree that Kareem is smart enough to not be that ignorant, which means he's probably purposefully ignoring that to support his argument.

And you can get tired of pretty simple concepts like pace and math, it doesn't make it not right and irrelevant.

[TheMan]

mj also played in one of the worst eras of the nba:facepalm

MJ

[PistonsFan#21]

Was Kareem seriously saying that Bill Russell averaging more rebounds is a proof that hes better than Jordan?

:facepalm

[G.O.A.T]

Was Kareem seriously saying that Bill Russell averaging more rebounds is a proof that hes better than Jordan?

:facepalm


No he was showing that Russell dominated a statistical category (rebounding) over Jordan by a greater margin than Jordan dominated one (scoring) over him. And then referencing that Russell won twice as much to show that he was a greater winner than MJ.

All he was doing is saying that there is no 100% argument that Jordan is the greatest, and that those two guys (and himself) belong in the conversation as well because they all did things Jordan never came close to doing.

[Da_Realist]

Just ran across this...

[quote]So, after 19 seasons, four rings and 12 All-Star Game appearances, how to sum up Shaq

[G.O.A.T]

Just ran across this...



http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Shaquille-ONeal-NBA-legacy-great-but-should-have-been-greater-if-he-stayed-slim-060111

:wtf: When did double-teaming become a legal defensive strategy?


Double teaming was never illegal. In fact in Wilt's day you could double players without the ball. That changed in the early 80's with the advent of illegal defense.

It's amazing how little some people know are and how confident they are in their opinion without any reason to be. Wilt spends an entire three pages of his autobiography talking about how Russell (and everyone else) needed help to stop him.

Double teaming was much less common, yes, but never, ever illegal.

[Da_Realist]

Double teaming was never illegal. In fact in Wilt's day you could double players without the ball. That changed in the early 80's with the advent of illegal defense.

It's amazing how little some people know are and how confident they are in their opinion without any reason to be. Wilt spends an entire three pages of his autobiography talking about how Russell (and everyone else) needed help to stop him.

Double teaming was much less common, yes, but never, ever illegal.

I knew that seemed fishy. So Rosen is talking out of his ass? This guy comes off like a coach's coach that knows the history of basketball. I've read a number of his articles and he seemed to always know what he was talking about... :confusedshrug:

[G.O.A.T]

I knew that seemed fishy. So Rosen is talking out of his ass? This guy comes off like a coach's coach that knows the history of basketball. I've read a number of his articles and he seemed to always know what he was talking about... :confusedshrug:

Looking through my NBA encyclopedia and the official rules and rule changes from 1946 on, I see no mention of double teaming being illegal until 1981 (aforementioned situation; away from the ball double-team)

Maybe he knows something I don't, but from everything I've read and all the footage I've seen, double teaming was a part of the game.

[Da_Realist]

Looking through my NBA encyclopedia and the official rules and rule changes from 1946 on, I see no mention of double teaming being illegal until 1981 (aforementioned situation; away from the ball double-team)

Maybe he knows something I don't, but from everything I've read and all the footage I've seen, double teaming was a part of the game.

I believe you. I don't know why he put that in there. Maybe I misunderstood, but if Wilt didn't face doubleteams in his day we would have heard about it a million times already.

[PHILA]

They really hated each other that much? http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FRIENDSHIP+WAS+STRAINED+OVER+TIME.-a083625216


Oct 13, 1999

It was an odd relationship - filled with times of great friendship and also long periods of animosity.

The strange bond between Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is, and always will be, hard to understand, surpassing in puzzlement the fragile relationship between Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

After all, Russell and Chamberlain were contemporaries, rivals who consistently played against each other in the NBA Finals. It was inevitable their bond would be strained.

The Chamberlain-and-Abdul-Jabbar feud was more confusing. They played against each other only four years. In addition, it was Chamberlain, then an NBA superstar, who befriended Abdul-Jabbar when he was a high school star in New York City. For a time, he was Kareem's mentor.

The animosity came mostly from Chamberlain, who spent a lot of time sniping at Abdul-Jabbar in the press once Kareem turned professional.

In fact, long after Chamberlain retired, he belittled Abdul-Jabbar's rebounding, and even urged him to retire a few times. He summed up those feelings in 1991.

"I feel sorry for Kareem,'' Chamberlain said. "One thing for sure - he was blessed with a magnificent body and magnificent talent. Not to say he loafed, but he never pushed himself to the limit.

"I'm not here to chastise Kareem. He was the greatest offensive force I ever faced on the basketball court - by far. The only time I ever saw him push himself was against me.''

During his career, Abdul-Jabbar stayed above the fray. But he did respond in his post-career book, "My Turn,'' published in 1990.

In a segment sub-titled "An Open Letter to Wilt Chumberlame,'' Abdul-Jabbar lashed out at the man he once idolized.

He ended the letter by writing: "So, now that I have left, one thing will be part of my legacy: People will remember that I worked with my teammates and helped us win. You will be remembered as a whining crybaby and a quitter, stats and all.''

Abdul-Jabbar later said he wrote the letter against the wishes of the book's publisher.

"I'm the one who wanted to do it,'' Abdul-Jabbar said. "As a matter of fact, Mignon (McCarthy, the co-author) said, `Don't do it, don't do it, it's like getting into a mud-slinging contest.' I told her I was already covered with mud. . . .

"Wilt had his say for a long time, and I've never really responded to it, never told my side of it. I just figured I'd have some fun with it.''

So did Chamberlain. He named his dog Kareem. "I thought that was interesting,'' said USC coach Henry Bibby, who was a Knicks rookie in '73 when the Knicks defeated the Lakers for the championship.

On Tuesday, Abdul-Jabbar released this statement: "Wilt was one of the greatest players ever, and we will never see another one like him.''

[PHILA]

Not reading entire thread. But besides in the NBA, did Wilt and Kareem ever play one another prior to that? Be it at a pickup game, Rucker park? On April 22, 1989, Ira Berkow wrote this Sports of the Times column about Abdul-Jabbar.

Back then, back 20 years ago, he was not yet His Royal Baldness, or the Ancient Mariner, and not yet Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and with hardly a notion that one day he would become a six-time most valuable player, a member of six N.B.A. championship teams, and the highest scorer, the most prolific shot-blocker, and the man who would play more minutes, and more games, and more years, and play to an older age than anyone else in pro basketball history.

Back then, Lewis Ferdinand Alcindor Jr. was 22 years old, with a full head of hair, a sweeping shot that would later be dubbed the Sky Hook, and, also, something to prove.

Back then, in 1969, he could hardly have dreamed that tomorrow, at age 42, when the Los Angeles Lakers engage the Seattle SuperSonics, he would be playing in the last regular-season game of the season, and of his career - he has announced his retirement - and that CBS-TV would switch its previously scheduled game, Atlanta-Detroit, to let the country see it.

But two decades ago he had to demonstrate that he was truly more than just a hot-shot college star.

He had been drafted out of U.C.L.A. by the Milwaukee Bucks, who signed him to a $1 million contract - enormous in those days - and his first competition, his pro debut, in effect, was in late August at the annual Maurice Stokes benefit game at Kutsher's Country Club in the Catskills.

Lew Alcindor - it would be two years before he would change his name to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -would be playing against some of the league's best players, and going head to head with Wilt Chamberlain, who'd been around.
That night, mixed with the smell of balsam and blintzes, there was an air of expectation. Fans and players alike wondered how he would fare.

And the owner of the Bucks, Wes Pavalon, who had invested so much money on this 7-foot-2-inch rookie, was flying in in a private plane to see for himself.

Pavalon arrived just in time to be met by the departing crowd. The plane had run into some trouble. At the gym, finally, Pavalon saw Jack Twyman, a former N.B.A. player.

''What happened?'' Pavalon asked. ''How'd Lew do?''

''Wes,'' replied Twyman, ''your boy made some moves you just wouldn't believe.'' ''Good moves or bad ones?'' asked Pavalon. Twyman laughed, and told him about how Alcindor got the ball in the corner, and gracefully drove and slammed the ball through the hoop. He'd done that before, of course, but he had never done it over the arms of Wilt Chamberlain.

Alcindor played 25 minutes, mostly against Wilt, and made 6 of 11 shots from the field, took 10 rebounds and blocked 4 shots. Chamberlain hit 6 of 8 from the the field, pulled down 16 rebounds and blocked 6 shots; he was also voted the most valuable player in the game.

Afterward, Alcindor said no, he didn't feel pressure, that he had played too many pressure games in his life to be upset now. ''Besides,'' he said, ''I was out there to learn.''

[The_Yearning]

Goddamn Wilt and Russel are the two most overrated players in the history of basketball.

[jlauber]

Goddamn Wilt and Russel are the two most overrated players in the history of basketball.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Why? Because Kareem is now calling Chamberlain the most dominant individual who ever played the game, and Russell the greatest winner the game has ever known?

Hmmm, maybe he knows of what he speaks...

let's take a look...

The RECORD BOOK confirms Wilt's ABSOLUTE dominance (some 130 records, and in many cases, he holds the next mark or marks, as well.)

And, Russell with ELEVEN rings, in 13 seasons.

Damn, Kareem was RIGHT!

[moe94]

Are you like 60 years old? Not even joking.

[jlauber]

Are you like 60 years old? Not even joking.

Old enough to have SEEN Russell and Wilt LIVE.

In any case, if we are going to throw out what those two achieved, because it took place 40-50 years ago, then we must do the same to MJ, as well. After all, he played his last meaningful game some 13 years ago. Even Shaq of 2000 was 11 years ago. Could we PROVE that those two would be just as dominant in today's NBA if they were playing in their primes right now?

[moe94]

Comparing 2000 to the 60's is beyond asinine. Sorry.

[jlauber]

Comparing 2000 to the 60's is beyond asinine. Sorry.

A 38 year-old Kareem absolutely CRUSHED a 23 year old Hakeem in the mid-to-late 80's. And yet, a PRIME Kareem couldn't outplay a Chamberlain in the twilight of his career.

Of course, Hakeem went on to sweep Shaq's Magic in the '95 Finals, in which many believe that he outplayed Shaq. In fact, a few years later, a PRIME Shaq hung 37 points on a washed-up Hakeem...which was the most points he ever scored against Hakeem. Meanwhile an old Kareem, in one of the THREE 40+ point games he hung on Hakeem, scored 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, in only 37 minutes against him.

So, unless you are suggesting that Hakeem and Shaq would be pure crap today, you had better acknowledge that not only would Kareem be great today, but so would Chamberlain.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Old enough to have SEEN Russell and Wilt LIVE
Suprised you know how to use a computer.

My grandma doesn't even know how to text message.

Props to you, old man !!!

:pimp:

[jlauber]

Suprised you know how to use a computer.

My grandma doesn't even know how to text message.

Props to you, old man !!!

:pimp:

I actually do tech support for a living. But, yes, I am still old-school. I only use my cell-phone to call out and to receive calls. I HATE texting.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Kareem, here is something for you to consider in the playoffs

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 81
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Wilt played more playoff games than West and Baylor and yet Baylor both have more 30+ point games than Wilt. Not only that but Wilt only has 13 games of 40+ in the playoffs when West has more.

Love these facts.

[ThaRegul8r]

Just ran across this...


So, after 19 seasons, four rings and 12 All-Star Game appearances, how to sum up Shaq’s career?

As far as his status among the all-time great NBA centers, Shaq rates behind Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Both of these guys won more championships (11 for Russ and six for A-J), and they each were at the respective pinnacles of their games for far longer than was O’Neal.

While Shaq never equaled the individual statistics of Wilt Chamberlain (although he did win twice as many rings), there are extenuating circumstances. Double-teams were illegal in Wilt’s salad days, and outstanding 7-foot opponents were more scarce. Since His Eminence Tex Winter also slotted Shaq ahead of Wilt, there should be no righteous argument here.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Shaquille-ONeal-NBA-legacy-great-but-should-have-been-greater-if-he-stayed-slim-060111

:wtf: When did double-teaming become a legal defensive strategy?

Double teaming was never illegal. In fact in Wilt's day you could double players without the ball. That changed in the early 80's with the advent of illegal defense.

It's amazing how little some people know are and how confident they are in their opinion without any reason to be. Wilt spends an entire three pages of his autobiography talking about how Russell (and everyone else) needed help to stop him.

Double teaming was much less common, yes, but never, ever illegal.

I knew that seemed fishy. So Rosen is talking out of his ass? This guy comes off like a coach's coach that knows the history of basketball. I've read a number of his articles and he seemed to always know what he was talking about... :confusedshrug:

Looking through my NBA encyclopedia and the official rules and rule changes from 1946 on, I see no mention of double teaming being illegal until 1981 (aforementioned situation; away from the ball double-team)

Maybe he knows something I don't, but from everything I've read and all the footage I've seen, double teaming was a part of the game.

Or he just doesn't know what he's talking about.

It irks me when I see people who are actually paid to talk about sports...say something and not know what they're talking about. It irks me when I see it on message boards (and I've spent decades trying to raise historical awareness and stamp out misinformation to no avail), and even more so when you have people on a national platform... who are paid to talk about the subject... yet speak on something without knowing what they're talking about; showing that they didn't even take the time to do the necessary research if they weren't sure. I've written sports talk show hosts to correct them when they've said something incorrect on the air. I've received responses admitting they didn't even know what I had told them, yet they didn't correct themselves on air—which makes it meaningless if you'll admit you were wrong off air where no one knows about it except the two of us, but won't correct yourself on air, where you have a large listener base who don't know any better, and thus won't realize incorrect information was given.

People just don't bother to verify the accuracy of what they say before they say it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Or he just doesn't know what he's talking about.

It irks me when I see people who are actually paid to talk about sports...say something and not know what they're talking about. It irks me when I see it on message boards (and I've spent decades trying to raise historical awareness and stamp out misinformation to no avail), and even more so when you have people on a national platform... who are paid to talk about the subject... yet speak on something without knowing what they're talking about; showing that they didn't even take the time to do the necessary research if they weren't sure. I've written sports talk show hosts to correct them when they've said something incorrect on the air. I've received responses admitting they didn't even know what I had told them, yet they didn't correct themselves on air—which makes it meaningless if you'll admit you were wrong off air where no one knows about it except the two of us, but won't correct yourself on air, where you have a large listener base who don't know any better, and thus won't realize incorrect information was given.

People just don't bother to verify the accuracy of what they say before they say it.

That's not the only false thing that Rosen stated in the article.


The top pick in the draft, Shaq was incredibly quick off the floorboards, had excellent footwork, could run the court and had terrific defensive range. In his rookie season, Shaq averaged 13.9 rebounds and 3.28 blocks, which both turned out to be career highs.

Actually, 3.53.


Even more miraculous, his free-throw percentage was 59.2 percent — another peak that he never equaled.

Shaq topped that twice, he shot 62.2% in the 2002-2003 season and 59.5% in the 2008-2009 season


Except for his injury-wracked last four seasons, Shaq’s 1.9 assists constituted the low point of his passing career. He also led the league with 3.39 turnovers, another of his dubious personal records. But Shaq’s ineptitude in these two categories is certainly excusable as he (like most rookies) struggled to get the hang of the pro game

Again the number is incorrect, he averaged 3.79.

And it is surprising that he stated double teaming was illegal, I've never heard it was illegal before. I've heard that it was done much less frequently, and remember Matt Goukas saying that it was either not done or rarely done, but never illegal.

I've also seen double teams in some 60's footage without it being called a violation.

[z14h]

Shit looks fake.

[clipps]

Meh. Wilt wouldnt crack a D-league roster today

To put things into perspective; Russel took a sh*t on Wilt, who took a sh*t on Kareem, who took a sh*t on Hakeem, Ewing, etc who by then was pushing 40. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning would completely Son the Centers in the league today, including Dwight Howard. Considering Kareem completely Son'ed the likes of Hakeem and Ewing while past his prime pushing 40, can you imagine what a Prime Wilt and Russel would do to today's centers?

Russel would average at least 20/16/8(blocked shots). If the NBA recorded blocked shots in Wilt's day, he would be by far the all time leader in quadruple doubles. A quadruple double would be a normal stat-line for Wilt. I hope you were being sarcastic.

[Irish]

Would love to see Kareem's reaction if Durant or even worse Kobe took his scoring record.

'Hurrr durrr NBA is nothing now, I played against the best, build me a statue, Kobe/Durant, they suck hurrr durrr, i'm an asshole, bet you can't play twenty years.'

Kareem is lucky he has the resume to say the nonsense he does.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Kareem: LeBron should've gone to college
http://articles.ocregister.com/2010-05-13/sports/24636087_1_lebron-college-boys-town

[The_Yearning]

Old enough to have SEEN Russell and Wilt LIVE.

In any case, if we are going to throw out what those two achieved, because it took place 40-50 years ago, then we must do the same to MJ, as well. After all, he played his last meaningful game some 13 years ago. Even Shaq of 2000 was 11 years ago. Could we PROVE that those two would be just as dominant in today's NBA if they were playing in their primes right now?

Somebody locate where this guy lives via IP and I will happily expose this clown.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Somebody locate where this guy lives via IP and I will happily expose this clown.
Why is your name "The_Yearning" ?

:oldlol:

[Bring-Your-Js]

Would love to see Kareem's reaction if Durant or even worse Kobe took his scoring record.

'Hurrr durrr NBA is nothing now, I played against the best, build me a statue, Kobe/Durant, they suck hurrr durrr, i'm an asshole, bet you can't play twenty years.'

Kareem is lucky he has the resume to say the nonsense he does.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

To put things into perspective; Russel took a sh*t on Wilt, who took a sh*t on Kareem, who took a sh*t on Hakeem, Ewing, etc who by then was pushing 40. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning would completely Son the Centers in the league today, including Dwight Howard. Considering Kareem completely Son'ed the likes of Hakeem and Ewing while past his prime pushing 40, can you imagine what a Prime Wilt and Russel would do to today's centers?

Russel would average at least 20/16/8(blocked shots). If the NBA recorded blocked shots in Wilt's day, he would be by far the all time leader in quadruple doubles. A quadruple double would be a normal stat-line for Wilt. I hope you were being sarcastic.

This is an extremely flawed argument, I can't believe people still use it.

And as far as the stat prediction for Russell in today's game? What exactly do you base that on? He was a great shot blocker, but that's going WAY overboard when the last few years, 2.5-3 bpg has been enough to lead the league. As far as scoring? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

[Psileas]

Kareem is lucky he has the resume to say the nonsense he does.

Yeah, Kareem is lucky he became so great...

[Irish]

Yeah, Kareem is lucky he became so great...
You know that wasn't the point I was making, Kareem seems forever in the past, and he was intolerable back then as well. We all know how great he was we don't need reminded all the time.

[winwin]

Kareem is The G.O.A.T



sig. like A BOSS

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[LoneyROY7]

lol at Kareem implying that the reduced amount of teams actually means accolades were more impressive due to the league's talent in the dark ages. Pretty sickening that he also implies that he ranks Wilt and Russell over Jordan too.

I was thinking the same thing...

[The_Yearning]

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FRIENDSHIP+WAS+STRAINED+OVER+TIME.-a083625216


Oct 13, 1999

It was an odd relationship - filled with times of great friendship and also long periods of animosity.

The strange bond between Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is, and always will be, hard to understand, surpassing in puzzlement the fragile relationship between Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

After all, Russell and Chamberlain were contemporaries, rivals who consistently played against each other in the NBA Finals. It was inevitable their bond would be strained.

The Chamberlain-and-Abdul-Jabbar feud was more confusing. They played against each other only four years. In addition, it was Chamberlain, then an NBA superstar, who befriended Abdul-Jabbar when he was a high school star in New York City. For a time, he was Kareem's mentor.

The animosity came mostly from Chamberlain, who spent a lot of time sniping at Abdul-Jabbar in the press once Kareem turned professional.

In fact, long after Chamberlain retired, he belittled Abdul-Jabbar's rebounding, and even urged him to retire a few times. He summed up those feelings in 1991.

"I feel sorry for Kareem,'' Chamberlain said. "One thing for sure - he was blessed with a magnificent body and magnificent talent. Not to say he loafed, but he never pushed himself to the limit.

"I'm not here to chastise Kareem. He was the greatest offensive force I ever faced on the basketball court - by far. The only time I ever saw him push himself was against me.''

During his career, Abdul-Jabbar stayed above the fray. But he did respond in his post-career book, "My Turn,'' published in 1990.

In a segment sub-titled "An Open Letter to Wilt Chumberlame,'' Abdul-Jabbar lashed out at the man he once idolized.

He ended the letter by writing: "So, now that I have left, one thing will be part of my legacy: People will remember that I worked with my teammates and helped us win. You will be remembered as a whining crybaby and a quitter, stats and all.''

Abdul-Jabbar later said he wrote the letter against the wishes of the book's publisher.

"I'm the one who wanted to do it,'' Abdul-Jabbar said. "As a matter of fact, Mignon (McCarthy, the co-author) said, `Don't do it, don't do it, it's like getting into a mud-slinging contest.' I told her I was already covered with mud. . . .

"Wilt had his say for a long time, and I've never really responded to it, never told my side of it. I just figured I'd have some fun with it.''

So did Chamberlain. He named his dog Kareem. "I thought that was interesting,'' said USC coach Henry Bibby, who was a Knicks rookie in '73 when the Knicks defeated the Lakers for the championship.

On Tuesday, Abdul-Jabbar released this statement: "Wilt was one of the greatest players ever, and we will never see another one like him.''

Wilt sounds pretty educated...Kareem on the other hand... needs to get himself a proof reader.