If Dirk wins a title this year, do you put it on par with '94 Hakeem and '03 Duncan?

[Carbine]

:confusedshrug:

[thomaspynchon]

yes I would although dallas could have won in 03 if dirk didn't get injured.

[DMAVS41]

Absolutely.

I'd keep Hakeem at number 1.

2/3 would be Duncan and Dirk...don't know the order

[Samurai Swoosh]

Hakeem
Duncan
Dirk

The Mavericks supporting cast is pretty good, and very well rounded.

[thomaspynchon]

Hakeem
Duncan
Dirk

The Mavericks supporting cast is pretty good, and very well rounded.

2-9 without him

[Carbine]

Absolutely.

I'd keep Hakeem at number 1.

2/3 would be Duncan and Dirk...don't know the order

Why do you feel what Hakeem did was more worthy of the number 1 spot than what Dirk, assuming he wins the title, has done?

Dirk has had to go through much tougher opposition, in my opinion.

Maybe the deepest team in the league 1-8 in Portland.

The 2 time defending champs in the second round without home court.

The upstart OKC Thunder who will probably end up with a title or two before it's all said and done.

...and then finally this Heat team, who has two of the top 20 players ever on their team in their primes...and an all-star power forward who drops 20/10 in his prime too.


Dirk would have gone through that very difficult road without any all-stars, and a season-ending injury to one of it's best players in Caron Butler.

[Samurai Swoosh]

2-9 without him
Obviously, he's their best player. Things like that happen all the time. They are still perfectly built to surround him. So when he's on the floor, their team isn't missing a HUGE piece to the puzzle.

[thomaspynchon]

Obviously, he's their best player. Things like that happen all the time. They are still perfectly built to surround him. So when he's on the floor, their team isn't missing a HUGE piece to the puzzle.

yeah but when he's out the team instantly turns to shit. I would say no team has ever been so dependent on one player as dallas is on Dirk.

[Jacks3]

Nope. Hakeem/Duncan were monster re-bounders/DPOY-caliber defender.

Dirk--not so much.

Though Dirk's offensive numbers are clearly better by a rather considerable margin...and his take-over ability is way better than both because he can catch the ball on the perimeter and isn't as vulnerable to doubles as Hakeem/Duncan.

[sportstownusa]

I think i put Hakeem first just based on his pure dominance. Between Duncan and Dirk, i think both of them are pretty darn important to their teams, but while Duncan's teammates were no doubt talented, they weren't established stars before like some of Dirk's teammates. Watching the mavs it's obvious how stagnant the offense becomes when Dirk isn't in the game, but i think the same was true in '03 for Duncan not only on the offensive end, but on the defense as well.

[bl2k8]

Easily, there missing their second best player also.

[CJ Mustard]

No.....just no...

[LA_Showtime]

No, he's below those guys. Still doesn't make the Mavs run any less impressive though. He just hasn't dominated the way those guys did, especially defensively. And please, if anyone mentions Dirk shutting down Gasol they serve a permaban.

[heyhey]

nah it's very impressive but those guys were two way players. Dirk's greatness on offense and great defensive supporting casts like Chandler/Haywood/Marion mask his deficiencies on defense.

It's more like AI in 2001 than anything, if you think this is a knock on Dirk then you didn't watch ball in AI's prime

[SCdac]

It's not just about teammates for me... Duncan and Hakeem - if we're talking about them in particular - were different breeds of players. Both of them at that time were averaging about 43 minutes a game in the playoffs. Not only did Hakeem win MVP that season but he also won Defensive Player Of the Year. He blocked at least 6 shots in one game of every playoff series that year. Duncan blocked 32 shots in the 2003 Finals, which is still the league record since it's counted blocks, and the Spurs defense would not have been what it was without him (David Robinson was 37, post-injury @ 23 MPG in the playoffs). Duncan cumulatively lead the 2003 playoffs in: Minutes, Points, Rebounds, Blocks, Freethrows, and Field Goals. Hakeem cumulatively lead the 1994 playoffs in: Points, Blocks, Freethrows, and Field Goals... Dirk has had 4 games of double-digit rebounding (out of 17 games) and has blocked more than 1 shot in a game just once. Dirk's offense (particularly midrange) has been probably top 1 or 2 in the playoffs this season and he carries the team in that regard, but I don't think the Mavs would be where they are without the defense of Tyson Chandler, Marion, Stevenson, Kidd, and just the help from his team in general. His team is actually really good... and that's not a knock.

[Bigsmoke]

lol @ Hakeem and Dirk in the same sentence.

[The Judge]

Dirk is beasting, but why do people act like he does it all by himself?

Sure, he doesn't have a Gasol or a Wade, but what he has is a VERY solid supporting cast around him and each night a different guy steps up and plays that Robin role. The guys always had deep team but in an effort to try and prop him up a lot of his fans discredit his team, which is unfortunate.

The most thankless job in the world is being a teammate of Dirk's.

[Odinn]

It's not just about teammates for me... Duncan and Hakeem - if we're talking about them in particular - were different breeds of players. Both of them at that time were averaging about 43 minutes a game in the playoffs. Not only did Hakeem win MVP that season but he also won Defensive Player Of the Year. He blocked at least 6 shots in one game of every playoff series that year. Duncan blocked 32 shots in the 2003 Finals, which is still the league record since it's counted blocks, and the Spurs defense would not have been what it was without him (David Robinson was 37, post-injury @ 23 MPG in the playoffs). Duncan cumulatively lead the 2003 playoffs in: Minutes, Points, Rebounds, Blocks, Freethrows, and Field Goals. Hakeem cumulatively lead the 1994 playoffs in: Points, Blocks, Freethrows, and Field Goals... Dirk has had 4 games of double-digit rebounding (out of 17 games) and has blocked more than 1 shot in a game just once. Dirk's offense (particularly midrange) has been probably top 1 or 2 in the playoffs this season and he carries the team in that regard, but I don't think the Mavs would be where they are without the defense of Tyson Chandler, Marion, Stevenson, Kidd, and just the help from his team in general. His team is actually really good... and that's not a knock.
:applause:

[Carbine]

Alright, so if Dirk doesn't belong in that same discussion of players as those two do....how do we explain what he will have gone through to get that ring?

Deepest team 1-8 in the league? Check.

Mini-Dynasty Lakers all healthy - Swept.

Upstart OKC Thunder - Check.

Miami Heat, who have 3 of the 4 best players in the series - Check



To go through those teams with no all-stars is incredible. However, if he's not up to par as a player to those two (Hakeem and Duncan) then how do we explain it?

Luck? Championships aren't won with luck.

Dirk is just that good right now? Apparently not.

So what, this Mavericks team is one of the best TEAMS ever? Is that the conclusion we have come to? Are we not appreciating this current Mavericks team for what it is, which is one of the best single teams ever?

[DMAVS41]

If you don't put this run by Dirk on the same level you simply don't know basketball.

Doesn't mean Dirk is on the Hakeem/Duncan level as a player, just means he elevated his game and led a team that has no business winning it all.

Which is exactly what Dirk would have done if he wins it all.

You can talk about two way play and rebounding...etc.

I will counter that with one of the best scoring runs and clutch play in the playoffs we have ever seen.

I don't think people realize just how amazing he's been so far and how if Dirk was just playing really well and not legendary that the Mavs would probably sitting at home right now.

Given the competition level, I actually lean towards Dirk's run being a little more impressive than Duncan's.

LOL at anyone acting like they aren't on the same level though.

[AlphaWolf24]

If you don't put this run by Dirk on the same level you simply don't know basketball.

Doesn't mean Dirk is on the Hakeem/Duncan level as a player, just means he elevated his game and led a team that has no business winning it all.

Which is exactly what Dirk would have done if he wins it all.

You can talk about two way play and rebounding...etc.

I will counter that with one of the best scoring runs and clutch play in the playoffs we have ever seen.

I don't think people realize just how amazing he's been so far and how if Dirk was just playing really well and not legendary that the Mavs would probably sitting at home right now.

Given the competition level, I actually lean towards Dirk's run being a little more impressive than Duncan's.

LOL at anyone acting like they aren't on the same level though.


This....he is IMO putting together one of the greatest postseason runs in NBA History...watching him this year reminds me alot of Akeem in 94'...

If he does lead the Mavs past Miami I think it will be a greater run then Dreams 94' and Duncan's 03'....While Duncan brought a level of Leadership never seen since Bill Russell's player/Coach Titles in the 60's....Dirk this year has played/set an example for the ages...his walking out on the WCF post game interview has Bill Russell written all over it....his ability to close out games has been 2nd to none..

If he can win it....I believe it will and should be ranked higher then both men.

[jalbert009]

yeah but when he's out the team instantly turns to shit. I would say no team has ever been so dependent on one player as dallas is on Dirk.

I beg to differ. I think Lebrons' Cavs & Dwight's Magic Teams are more heavily reliant on them. At least this Mavs Team have Terry, Marion, Butler and Kidd which are pretty decent. Dont get me wrong, Im not hating on the mavs, I am actually rooting for the Mavs to win.

[jlauber]

This....he is IMO putting together one of the greatest postseason runs in NBA History...watching him this year reminds me alot of Akeem in 94'...

If he does lead the Mavs past Miami I think it will be a greater run then Dreams 94' and Duncan's 03'....While Duncan brought a level of Leadership never seen since Bill Russell's player/Coach Titles in the 60's....Dirk this year has played/set an example for the ages...his walking out on the WCF post game interview has Bill Russell written all over it....his ability to close out games has been 2nd to none..

If he can win it....I believe it will and should be ranked higher then both men.

Your's and DMAV's opinions basically echo mine. I don't think there were too many "experts" that gave Dallas much of a chance before the playoffs started. Meanwhile, the Heat have been EXPECTED to contend for the title since "The Decision." This would be a MONUMENTAL upset. And, no, Dirk does not have anywhere near the supporting cast that would merit where they are at right now. Dirk has put together a run that ranks among the greatest post-seasons ever (maybe not the best...but AMONG the best.)

[SCdac]

Duncan not only lead his team past the Shaq-Kobe dynasty, he also LEAD his team in assists with 5.3 per game through out the playoffs. How that is less impressive than Dirk's current run, on a team with former all-stars, a guard who's scores for you about as much as current Ray Allen or Joe Johnson, a series in which Dirk closed out the Lakers with a 17 point/7 rebound game, is beyond me. Ginobili was a rookie in that 2003 season, and Parker was in his second year shooting .40% from the field and .25% from three. We're talking about two very amazing runs here, Duncan's was more amazing though IMO. I can't even see Dirk putting up say 30-40 games to beat the Heat topping that. It's in the same area sort of, but not quite the same. Imagine Dirk's scoring combined with Tyson Chandler's defensive abilities and shot blocking.

[vinsane01]

Aside from the highlights, I have yet to see the playoff run of hakeem in 94 so i cant comment on that. I have seen some of the games of duncan's playoff run in 03. Tim flat out carried that team. He was the defensive and offensive anchor of that team. Dirk is carrying his mavericks this year but in a different way than how duncan did. Dirk is no doubt an offensive behemoth but he isnt their best defensive player, he is a decent to slightly above average at best. But what he lacks in defense he more than makes up for his clutch performances, an aspect of the game that which the young 03 duncan was still developing. If dallas wins the title this year, it should be in the same discussion but IMO duncan's run was better.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan not only lead his team past the Shaq-Kobe dynasty, he also LEAD his team in assists with 5.3 per game through out the playoffs. How that is less impressive than Dirk's current run, on a team with former all-stars, a guard who's scores for you about as much as current Ray Allen or Joe Johnson, a series in which Dirk closed out the Lakers with a 17 point/7 rebound game, is beyond me. Ginobili was a rookie in that 2003 season, and Parker was in his second year shooting .40% from the field and .25% from three. We're talking about two very amazing runs here, Duncan's was more amazing though IMO. I can't even see Dirk putting up say 30-40 games to beat the Heat topping that. It's in the same area sort of, but not quite the same. Imagine Dirk's scoring combined with Tyson Chandler's defensive abilities and shot blocking.

I'm not saying it is.

I'm saying it should be on the same level.

Honestly though, you are discounting Dirk's play late in these games. He is averaging like 10 points per 4th qtr and has been as clutch or more clutch as any player we've seen in the last 20 years not named MJ. That counts for a lot in my opinion. The clutch play is something to be marveled at.

And another great performance last night. Scored the last 9 points for the Mavs. A 3 with 25 seconds left to break the tie and then the game winner after that. Legendary.

Not to mention one of the best playoff games of all time in game 1 against OKC.

I don't really care how people would rank the runs of Hakeem/Duncan/Dirk/Barry. I just know Dirk belongs in that conversation if the Mavs win it all.

Hopefully its a debate we will end up having.

Go Mavs Go.

[SCdac]

I'm not saying it is.

I'm saying it should be on the same level.


Given the competition level, I actually lean towards Dirk's run being a little more impressive than Duncan's.

:confusedshrug:

If you think this is more impressive than Duncan's run, that's fine. It's your opinion.

I'd laugh at the idea of agreeing with that, or if anyone else agrees though...

In the same conversation, maybe, offensively. But Dirk is no Hakeem or Duncan as far as being an all-around player and his run is coincided by great help from his team, just like any other great team.

Play Dirk with Malik Rose for 23 minutes a night and I'd like to see how far that team goes... Duncan took it to the Finals.

[LA_Showtime]

He's definitely having a special postseason. Even during his "off" games he's more than made up for them, such as last night, when Marion, Chandler, and then Terry carried the Mavericks through stretches of the game and then Dirk closed it out.

[rmt]

True - Dirk has been super-clutch this post-season but as Barkley said of the last game, "He was turrible the first 3 quarters (13 pts)." Marion and Chandler carried them until the 4th quarter (9 pts) when Dirk took over.

I'll give Dirk the clutch ness and the super-wet shots but what's the difference between last year's team that got eliminated in the first round by the Spurs and this year's team that has reached the Finals. IMO, the difference is the defense which is largely due to the presence of Chandler.

Dirk
more clutch
more points

Duncan
more rebounds, assists, blocks
higher field goal percentage
superior defense to Chandler

Dirk 2011 playoffs
28.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 2.8 asst / .6 blk on 50.5% FG (17 games)

Duncan 2003 playoffs
24.7 pts / 15.4 rebs / 5.3 asst / 3.3 blk on 52.9% FG (24 games)

As far as 2nd options go:

Terry
16.9 pts / 3.2 asst on 46.2% FG

2nd year Parker
14.7 pts / 3.5 asst on 40.3% FG

I think the importance of Hakeem/Duncan's defense is being under-rated in this thread. And looking at the stats, I prefer Duncan's 2003 playoffs over Dirk's 2011 playoffs. I know the excitement from Dirk's clutch shots really gets one going (I know it did for me last game), but I don't see how that's on the same level as all the other things that TD brought to the table (especially the defense).

[gengiskhan]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

Hakeem: 1994 NBA MVP.
Dirk: Not even Top 3 MVP candidates

Hakeem: 1994 NBA DPOY.
Dirk: :roll:

Hakeem: 1994 Finals MVP against Top 50 GOATs & One of the greatest & most complete centers of all times. PATRICK EWING in full 7 games nail biters

Dirk: possible 2011 finals MVP against Garbage heat center. :roll: :roll:

this thread is a real joke. ban yourself now.

[Teanett]

hakeem: jordan didnt play...

dirk: lebron, wade, kobe, durant are arguably the 4 best players in the league...

so yes, i'd place dirk '11 over hakeem '94

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Still below Hakeem n Duncan.
Those guys were all monsters on the defensive end. Dirk isn't.

[millwad]

Why do you feel what Hakeem did was more worthy of the number 1 spot than what Dirk, assuming he wins the title, has done?

Dirk has had to go through much tougher opposition, in my opinion.

Maybe the deepest team in the league 1-8 in Portland.

The 2 time defending champs in the second round without home court.

The upstart OKC Thunder who will probably end up with a title or two before it's all said and done.

...and then finally this Heat team, who has two of the top 20 players ever on their team in their primes...and an all-star power forward who drops 20/10 in his prime too.


Dirk would have gone through that very difficult road without any all-stars, and a season-ending injury to one of it's best players in Caron Butler.

Easy, Hakeem had no all-star caliber players on his team in 94, the rest of his starting 5 included Kenny Smith, Maxwell, Thorpe and Horry and the two important guys of the bench was rookie Sam Cassell and the 160th pick, Mario Elie..

If you compare that to Dirks team you understand how much better his supporting cast is, he has guys like Jason Terry, Jason Kidd, Tyson Chandler, Barea, Butler (before he got injured), Shawn Marion, Haywood, Stojakovic and Stevenson.

If you compare the starting five of Hakeems to Dirk's, the only position Houston has the edge in, is the center position which Hakeem stood for..

And lets not forget Hakeem dominated way more in 94 than Dirk has dominated, Hakeem won MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP and IF Dirk now wins, he'd only have the Finals MVP..

This shouldn't even be a discussion.

[millwad]

hakeem: jordan didnt play...

dirk: lebron, wade, kobe, durant are arguably the 4 best players in the league...

so yes, i'd place dirk '11 over hakeem '94

Ehm, Hakeem would have still been in the finals in 94 and faced Jordan too and Hakeem is the only superstar in the NBA who hasn't a looooosing record vs MJ and your beloved MJ was there in 95 and he got his ass busted by the same team Olajuwon later swept. Not too sure history would have changed with MJ being in it.

[DMAVS41]

:confusedshrug:

If you think this is more impressive than Duncan's run, that's fine. It's your opinion.

I'd laugh at the idea of agreeing with that, or if anyone else agrees though...

In the same conversation, maybe, offensively. But Dirk is no Hakeem or Duncan as far as being an all-around player and his run is coincided by great help from his team, just like any other great team.

Play Dirk with Malik Rose for 23 minutes a night and I'd like to see how far that team goes... Duncan took it to the Finals.

What?

Malik Rose is your go to guy for this. LOL

Thats like me saying:

Play Duncan with Peja for 20 minutes a night and I'd like to see how far that team goes.....Dirk took it to the Finals.

I have no problem with somebody ranking Duncan's run higher. I do have a problem with people saying its not on the same level.

You mention Malik Rose. You fail to mention Robinson. Even at his age he was giving you 23 minutes a game of quality production from center and in 8 less minutes giving you production very close to Tyson Chandler. Chandler is putting up 8 points and 9 boards and playing good defense. Robinson put up 8 points and 7 boards and played good defense. LOL

Or how about Tony Parker and Stephen Jackson. Very similar to the play of Terry and Marion.

Then you have Bowen. Simply a much better stevenson.
Then you have Manu. Easily as good or better than Barea and not a huge defensive liability.

Haywood and Malik Rose are very similar.

They are very similar teams. I'd give the edge to the Mavs in terms of supporting cast because of what Kidd provides, but its a slight edge.

When you factor in the competition, Dirk gets a huge edge here. The Spurs did the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and that is hugely impressive. But they also beat a Dallas team without Dirk in the WCF and then played the Nets in the finals.

Sorry. Going through Portland, Lakers, Thunder.....and then potentially the Wade/Lebron Heat would be much more impressive.

This isn't about which player is better. I'd take 03 Duncan over Dirk right now. Its about which playoff run is most impressive. There is a lot more to that conversation than just who the better player was.

[AlphaWolf24]

hakeem: jordan didnt play...

dirk: lebron, wade, kobe, durant are arguably the 4 best players in the league...

so yes, i'd place dirk '11 over hakeem '94

Jordan jockers ruining basketball one post at a time:facepalm


..the other 10 years MJ Played and the Bull's lost, was he too young or too old?

[SCdac]

What?

Malik Rose is your go to guy for this. LOL

Thats like me saying:

Play Duncan with Peja for 20 minutes a night and I'd like to see how far that team goes.....Dirk took it to the Finals.

Duncan basically DID take a team with Peja playing 20 minutes to the Finals - only his name was Brent Barry.... in 2005.

You're the biggest Dirk homer on this board and that fact you think this run is more impressive than Duncan's is simply laughable (yeah keep trying to backtrack...) and shows you have no understanding of the game whatsoever.

Duncan closed out the NJN in the 2003 Finals with:

21 points
20 rebounds
10 assists
8 blocks
46 minutes

That was almost as many assists as the entire Nets team that night... and to put it in perspective, Dirk has blocked a total of 10 shots through 17 playoff games. These Mavs rely on their bigs like Chandler and Haywood as much as anything. Stop pretending Dirk has anywhere near the impact on both ends that Duncan and Hakeem do - the defensive impact the Spurs and Rockets relied on.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan basically DID take a team with Peja playing 20 minutes to the Finals - only his name was Brent Barry.... in 2005.

You're the biggest Dirk homer on this board and that fact you think this run is more impressive than Duncan's is simply laughable (yeah keep trying to backtrack...) and shows you have no understanding of the game whatsoever.

Duncan closed out the NJN in the 2003 Finals with:

21 points
20 rebounds
10 assists
8 blocks
46 minutes

That was almost as many assists as the entire Nets team that night... and to put it in perspective, Dirk has blocked a total of 10 shots through 17 playoff games. These Mavs rely on their bigs like Chandler and Haywood as much as anything. Stop pretending Dirk has anywhere near the impact on both ends that Duncan and Dirk do - the defensive impact the Spurs and Rockets relied on.

You don't understand what the question actually is ****ing moron.

Stop rattling off stats as if it means anything. Dirk has all time great numbers as well. When you combine that with his all time great clutch play its hugely impressive.

Which player had the better supporting cast? Dirk. Slightly. The teams are actually very similar though. Parker and Jackson are very similar to Terry and Marion. Robinson and Rose are very similar to Chandler and Haywood.

Manu was better than Barea.
Bowen was better than Stevenson.
Claxton vs Peja? Toss up.

The difference is Kidd. Kidd gives the edge to Dirk in supporting cast help.

However, when you factor in competition, it evens out or actually favors Dirk.

Duncan had to beat a weak Suns team, a great Lakers team (amazing), and a Dallas team without Dirk. Then he faced an average Nets team in the finals.

Dirk had to beat a solid Blazers team, a great Lakers team (amazing), and a very good Thunder team. Then he has to beat a Heat team that is probably 3 times better than the Nets were in 03.

Then factor in things like the Mavs went 12-3 in the Western Conference. Sweeping the Lakers and beating the Thunder in 5.

While the Spurs went 12-6 against weaker competition. LOL


I don't know how much more clear I can be. Duncan in 03 was a better player than Dirk is now. However, the playoff run that Dirk has had so far is at least on par with Duncan's. If the Mavs win, Dirk deserves to be right there. I'd actually have Dirk higher, but I'm cool with any ranking as long as they are in the same league.

Stop ignoring reality dude. This Mavs team is getting grossly over-rated right now.

Wake up moron.

[SCdac]

You don't understand what the question actually is ****ing moron.

Stop rattling off stats as if it means anything. Dirk has all time great numbers as well. When you combine that with his all time great clutch play its hugely impressive.

Which player had the better supporting cast? Dirk. Slightly. The teams are actually very similar though. Parker and Jackson are very similar to Terry and Marion. Robinson and Rose are very similar to Chandler and Haywood.

Manu was better than Barea.
Bowen was better than Stevenson.
Claxton vs Peja? Toss up.

The difference is Kidd. Kidd gives the edge to Dirk in supporting cast help.

However, when you factor in competition, it evens out or actually favors Dirk.

Duncan had to beat a weak Suns team, a great Lakers team (amazing), and a Dallas team without Dirk. Then he faced an average Nets team in the finals.

Dirk had to beat a solid Blazers team, a great Lakers team (amazing), and a very good Thunder team. Then he has to beat a Heat team that is probably 3 times better than the Nets were in 03.

Then factor in things like the Mavs went 12-3 in the Western Conference. Sweeping the Lakers and beating the Thunder in 5.

While the Spurs went 12-6 against weaker competition. LOL


I don't know how much more clear I can be. Duncan in 03 was a better player than Dirk is now. However, the playoff run that Dirk has had so far is at least on par with Duncan's. If the Mavs win, Dirk deserves to be right there. I'd actually have Dirk higher, but I'm cool with any ranking as long as they are in the same league.

Stop ignoring reality dude. This Mavs team is getting grossly over-rated right now.

Wake up moron.

Yeah, I can't believe the Mavs beat the Blazers with Brandon Roy - Portland's best player - averaging a whopping 23 minutes per game and 9 points per game!!! OMG how did the Mavs pull that off?

Let me guess, to you, the Blazers and Thunder are some of the best teams of all-time... and beating the Lakers - who had the SAME record going into the playoffs as the Mavs - makes Dirk a top-10 all time player ... ? ..... does that sound about right

If anything, and I'm going to end it with this because arguing with you is pointless, you are UNDER rating the Mavs team... Only a serious Dirk-homer could do that, and it's no surprise it's you.

[KingBeasley08]

No it isnt. Those two carried their teams on both sides of the ball. Dirk is only offensively carrying his team

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, I can't believe the Mavs beat the Blazers with Brandon Roy - Portland's best player - averaging a whopping 23 minutes per game and 9 points per game!!! OMG how did the Mavs pull that off?

Let me guess, to you, the Blazers and Thunder are some of the best teams of all-time... and beating the Lakers - who had the SAME record going into the playoffs as the Mavs - makes Dirk a top-10 all time player ... ? ..... does that sound about right

If anything, and I'm going to end it with this because arguing with you is pointless, you are UNDER rating the Mavs team... Only a serious Dirk-homer could do that, and it's no surprise it's you.

Great response.

Funny how the Mavs were barely favored to beat that Blazers team. Wonder why. LOL

Once again, you are under-rating the shit out of that Spurs team. Robinson was nearly as impactful as Chandler in less minutes. Rose was simply a better player than Haywood. Manu much better than Barea. Similar offensively, but Manu was a much better defender. Bowen just easily a better player than stevenson.

Paker and Terry were very similar.
Jakson and Marion were very similar.

You can't respond so you resort to calling me a Dirk homer. LOL

You want to talk about competition.

Wow, the Spurs beat a flawed Suns team in 6. Wow. I'm impressed.

Wow, the Spurs beat the Mavs without Dirk in 6. Wow. I'm impressed.

Wow, the Spurs beat a 49 win Nets team in 6. Wow. I'm impressed.


The level of competition difference is a ****ing joke. Duncan and his spurs played scrub teams outside of the Lakers. Scrubs.

Funny how you fail to factor that in at all.

Let me guess, you think the Mavs without Dirk is an all time great team. I'd expect nothing less from a huge Duncan homer.

Beat some real teams please. Then we'll talk.

See? Making absurd arguments is fun.

[tpols]

That was almost as many assists as the entire Nets team that night... and to put it in perspective, Dirk has blocked a total of 10 shots through 17 playoff games. These Mavs rely on their bigs like Chandler and Haywood as much as anything. Stop pretending Dirk has anywhere near the impact on both ends that Duncan and Hakeem do - the defensive impact the Spurs and Rockets relied on.
And you need to stop pretending Duncan ever provided this type of offense and close-out ability in a playoff run. Dirk's offensive explosions and clutch performances this year outmatch any that duncan has ever put up..

And it's funny how duncan got to face the nets in the finals.. and meanwhile Dirk is now facing this heat team which is literally 3X as strong.

As far as competition goes it really isn't close.. Dallas has overcome much higher odds on Dirk's back so far.. He has to finish it though.

[DMAVS41]

And you need to stop pretending Duncan ever provided this type of offense and close-out ability in a playoff run. Dirk's offensive explosions and clutch performances this year outmatch any that duncan has ever put up..

And it's funny how duncan got to face the nets in the finals.. and meanwhile Dirk is now facing this heat team which is literally 3X as strong.

As far as competition goes it really isn't close.. Dallas has overcome much higher odds on Dirk's back so far.. He has to finish it though.

Exactly.

This isn't a debate if the Mavs lose like you said.

This is of course assuming the Mavs win. The level of competition difference is huge.

[Soothing Layup]

I'd put it over duncans run but not hakeems. Hakeem won DPOY, Finals MVP, and League MVP.

Not to mention his impact on defense is double what dirks is.

[SCdac]

I'd put it over duncans run but not hakeems. Hakeem won DPOY, Finals MVP, and League MVP.

Not to mention his impact on defense is double what dirks is.

And Duncan's isn't??? :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Let me ask you a couple questions SCdac.

Lets say Dirk's supporting cast is a 10 out of 10 this year.

What numerical value would you give Duncan's in comparison?

Lets say the competition the Mavs have faced so far this year is a 10 out of 10 in terms of difficulty.

What numerical value would you give the Spurs' competition?

Please answer.

[SCdac]

And you need to stop pretending Duncan ever provided this type of offense and close-out ability in a playoff run. Dirk's offensive explosions and clutch performances this year outmatch any that duncan has ever put up..

And it's funny how duncan got to face the nets in the finals.. and meanwhile Dirk is now facing this heat team which is literally 3X as strong.

As far as competition goes it really isn't close.. Dallas has overcome much higher odds on Dirk's back so far.. He has to finish it though.

Please, Duncan put up like 12+ points in the second half against the SHAQ-KOBE dynasty to close them out in the final game of that series...

He put up 37 points and 16 rebounds in that game.... so let's not act like Duncan wasn't one of the best offensive players in the playoffs at the time - if not the best offensive.

Tim Duncan had 96 offensive rebounds in the 2003 playoffs... Dirk has had 11. :roll:

Duncan all-around game / defense / offense in the 03 playoffs >>>> Dirk's offense in these playoffs

regardless of competition

[SCdac]

Let me ask you a couple questions SCdac.

Lets say Dirk's supporting cast is a 10 out of 10 this year.

What numerical value would you give Duncan's in comparison?

Lets say the competition the Mavs have faced so far this year is a 10 out of 10 in terms of difficulty.

What numerical value would you give the Spurs' competition?

Please answer.

I'd say Dirk's cast this season is about a 8.5/10.

I'd say Duncan's cast was about a 7/10, maybe a tad more but not much.

As far as competition, I put it like this...

Spurs competition was about a 7/10.

Mavs competition has been about a 8/10.

I am not as impressed by the Blazers and Thunders young and inexperienced teams as you are.... and the first Lakers dynasty was >>>> the second Lakers with older version of Kobe and Pau Gasol was no prime Shaq.

Keep in mind, I don't think the Mavs go anywhere without the player who finished #3 in DPOY voting, was a #2 overall pick, and is arguably one of the best centers in the league.

That's basically the whole point of what I'm saying.

Dirk's clutchness would not matter if he wasn't surrounded with the perfect pieces.... Whereas Duncan did more (literally) with less.

[DMAVS41]

Please, Duncan put up like 12+ points in the second half against the SHAQ-KOBE dynasty to close them out in the final game of that series...

He put up 37 points and 16 rebounds in that game.... so let's not act like Duncan wasn't one of the best offensive players in the playoffs at the time - if not the best offensive.

Tim Duncan had 96 offensive rebounds in the 2003 playoffs... Dirk has had 11. :roll:

Duncan all-around game / defense / offense in the 03 playoffs >>>> Dirk's offense in these playoffs

regardless of competition

That would be like me saying:

Dirk has 17 threes in the playoffs....Duncan had 0.....:roll:

Dirk is shooting 94% from the ft line....Duncan shot 68%....:roll:

Hilarious.

[SCdac]

That would be like me saying:

Dirk has 17 threes in the playoffs....Duncan had 0.....:roll:

Dirk is shooting 94% from the ft line....Duncan shot 68%....:roll:

Hilarious.

Yet, Duncan still lead the playoffs in Free throws made... :rolleyes:

Not to mention, Duncan is getting to the line more on average... (IE. getting teams in more foul trouble).

[DMAVS41]

I'd say Dirk's cast this season is about a 8.5/10.

I'd say Duncan's cast was about a 7/10, maybe a tad more but not much.

As far as competition, I put it like this...

Spurs competition was about a 7/10.

Mavs competition has been about a 8/10.

I am not as impressed by the Blazers and Thunders young and inexperienced teams as you are.... and the first Lakers dynasty was >>>> the second Lakers with older version of Kobe and Pau Gasol was no prime Shaq.

Keep in mind, I don't think the Mavs go anywhere without the player who finished #3 in DPOY voting, was a #2 overall pick, and is arguably one of the best centers in the league.

That's basically the whole point of what I'm saying.

Dirk's clutchness would not matter if he wasn't surrounded with the perfect pieces.... Whereas Duncan did more (literally) with less.

Thanks for answering.

Agree to disagree.

To use your numbers for competition....

If the Mavs are 8 out of 10. The Spurs were at best 5 out of 10.

Dallas without Dirk?
Nets in the finals?

Holy shit man. Its not even remotely comparable. Not to mention the Mavs went 12-3 against much better teams to make the finals. Spurs went 12-6 to make the finals.

Then its a 49 win Nets team that is honestly 2 to 3 times worse.

Wow. Can't believe you think the competition is even remotely similar.

We are so far apart there is no point in debating.

And I love how you prop up Chandler. Was Robinson worth nothing? He basically provided everything Chandler does and did so in less minutes. LOL

[10x91= 5 Rings]

If Dirk wins this, it will go in history as one of the greatest upsets and wins in NBA history. This is John Elway all over again.Lets be honest.No one,except hardcore Dallas fans thought the Mavs would make it to the Finals.They beat the dangerous Blazers,though it looked like they might choke again.They swept the defending Champion , beat the upstarts and future contenters from Oklahoma in a dramatic fashion and Game 2 of this serie against the Heat saw one the greatest comebacks in history. If Dirk,who was called a choker,failure and derided as soft wins this against 2 of the current 5 best players of today who are backed up by Stern and all the Hype....Hollywood won`t be in Miami,but I see a true life story movie of a zero to hero.

Which movie is more compelling?

Lebron took his talents to South Beach for the easy ride.

Dirk stayed loyal and took a raggedy bunch of old guys to the Finals,for one last shot at the title.

[DMAVS41]

Yet, Duncan still lead the playoffs in Free throws made... :rolleyes:

Not to mention, Duncan is getting to the line more on average... (IE. getting teams in more foul trouble).

He got fouled more because he can't make free throws. LOL

Agree to disagree.

I'm not going to rag on Duncan because I love him as a player. I just feel you are extremely biased to think that Dirk beating the Heat in the finals wouldn't put him in Duncan's league in terms of playoff runs.

I find it laughable really. But whatever.

We are way too far apart to have a legit discussion if you truly believe the scrub teams Duncan beat compare to the teams Dirk would have to beat to win the title.

[SCdac]

Thanks for answering.

Agree to disagree.

To use your numbers for competition....

If the Mavs are 8 out of 10. The Spurs were at best 5 out of 10.

Dallas without Dirk?
Nets in the finals?

Holy shit man. Its not even remotely comparable. Not to mention the Mavs went 12-3 against much better teams to make the finals. Spurs went 12-6 to make the finals.

Then its a 49 win Nets team that is honestly 2 to 3 times worse.

Wow. Can't believe you think the competition is even remotely similar.

We are so far apart there is no point in debating.

And I love how you prop up Chandler. Was Robinson worth nothing? He basically provided everything Chandler does and did so in less minutes. LOL

It's not JUST that the competition is similar ... and I'd agree that the Mavs are facing a team now better than any teams the Spurs faced, but outside of that it's comparable.

It's just Duncan had to to SO much more for his teams (did you even watch the 2003 playoffs??).... averaged more minutes than Dirk, created more plays for the Spurs, was the defensive anchor which the Spurs would be lost without.

and again, the Mavs would be nothing without Chandler. The Spurs won a championship without an old Robinson. Mavs have a STARTING center coming off the bench in Haywood. That dude was a starter for the Mavs prior to this season, and started for the Wizards too. Without that $20 million dollar front court tandem, I don't think any of Dirk's offense would be propelling them this far like it is now.

The Mavs have the second highest payroll in the NBA right now... and it's working out well for them.

[SCdac]

He got fouled more because he can't make free throws. LOL

Agree to disagree.

I'm not going to rag on Duncan because I love him as a player. I just feel you are extremely biased to think that Dirk beating the Heat in the finals wouldn't put him in Duncan's league in terms of playoff runs.

I find it laughable really. But whatever.

We are way too far apart to have a legit discussion if you truly believe the scrub teams Duncan beat compare to the teams Dirk would have to beat to win the title.

Duncan was unguardable back then..... If you actually watched you would remember. Not only that but he was one of the best defenders in the league.

You said it would be better than Duncan's run --- I think that's laughable.

you're saying it would be in the same conversation as Duncan's run --- I think only offensively.

Again, imagine what Dirk is doing now... combined with Tyson Chandlers defense and shot blocking...

THAT would be closer to what Duncan did in 2003...

[Carbine]

SCdac, are we witnessing one of the great single teams in NBA history with this Mavs team?

[SCdac]

SCdac, are we witnessing one of the great single teams in NBA history with this Mavs team?

Yes, it has been a great team...

Tyson Chandler - former #2 overall pick, #3 in DPOY voting this seaosn
Marion - 4x All-Star, 3x All-NBA player
Kidd - one of the best point guards of ALL TIME
Jason Terry - went into the WCF/Finals averaging as much as JJ/Ray Allen
Peja - 3x All-Star, one of the best 3 point shooters ever
Haywood - a perennial starting center up until acquiring Chandler

and then there's Dirk... one of the best power forwards ever... and the best offensive player on the team.

I don't know where they rank all time though... Every championship team is different.

But watching these Mavs, it's hard to say that they're playing as anything but a great TEAM.

Not Dirk... and a bunch of scrubs.

I feel sorry for the hard work that Cuban has put in if it goes unrecognized - he's put together basically the perfect team for all intensive purposes. The HOF point guard, the HOF power forward, one of the best defensive centers in the game right now, etc. Acquiring Peja midseason like it was nothing, same with Corey Brewer (who's been a nonfactor, but just saying). Attracting all these great players to Dallas... I'm surprised Mavs fans are taking it for granted.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan was unguardable back then..... If you actually watched you would remember. Not only that but he was one of the best defenders in the league.

You said it would be better than Duncan's run --- I think that's laughable.

you're saying it would be in the same conversation as Duncan's run --- I think only offensively.

Again, imagine what Dirk is doing now... combined with Tyson Chandlers defense and shot blocking...

THAT would be closer to what Duncan did in 2003...

Not at all. You are discounting what Dirk is doing offensively overall and at the end of games.

And I did watch. Duncan in 03 was amazing. Have I said otherwise? Nope.

I even said Duncan in 03 was a better player. But that does not mean Dirk's run can't equal or eclipse what Duncan did.

And my honest opinion. Aside from the Lakers, the Spurs beat scrubs. They got lucky. No Dirk on Dallas and a total scrub Nets team that would be lucky to beat the Thunder from this year.

The level of competition is huge.

And its not just about winning, its how Dirk and the Mavs are winning.

12-3 against better competition vs 12-6 against worse competition. That matters.

You are discounting the help Duncan had and propping up the competition. Duncan's supporting cast, as I have shown a number of times now, was very similar to Dirk's.

You can't break down overall impact the way you do as well.

Do you think Duncan's impact in 03 was greater than any of Magic's in the playoffs for his title runs? Because Magic never played defense and never had a stat line like Duncan's really.

Magic's best stat line was 22 points 8 boards 12 assists for a title run. Again, no defense. So I guess even Magic doesn't compare. LOL

You can't break down players like that.

Its impossible to put a numerical value on it, but Dirk's 4th qtr and crunch time play might be the equivalent to Duncan's rebounding or defense.

But that is too hard to quantify. What I do know is that Dirk is playing with a slightly better supporting cast and beating better competition more easily. And if the Mavs do beat the Heat, its about as impressive as a title run as I've ever seen.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, it has been a great team...

Tyson Chandler - former #2 overall pick, #3 in DPOY voting this seaosn
Marion - 4x All-Star, 3x All-NBA player
Kidd - one of the best point guards of ALL TIME
Jason Terry - went into the WCF/Finals averaging as much as JJ/Ray Allen
Peja - 3x All-Star, one of the best 3 point shooters ever
Haywood - a perennial starting center up until acquiring Chandler

and then there's Dirk... one of the best power forwards ever... and the best offensive player on the team.

I don't know where they rank all time though... Every championship team is different.

But watching these Mavs, it's hard to say that they're playing as anything but a great TEAM.

Not Dirk... and a bunch of scrubs.

I feel sorry for the hard work that Cuban has put in if it goes unrecognized - he's put together basically the perfect team for all intensive purposes. The HOF point guard, the HOF power forward, one of the best defensive centers in the game right now, etc. Acquiring Peja midseason like it was nothing, same with Corey Brewer (who's been a nonfactor, but just saying). Attracting all these great players to Dallas... I'm surprised Mavs fans are taking it for granted.

Holy shit man. You could say the same thing about the 03 Spurs.

Parker and Jackson.
David ****ing Robinson
Manu.
Bowen.

Wow....just.....Wow.

5 years ago that would be true....but not now. LOL

[SCdac]

Holy shit man. You could say the same thing about the 03 Spurs.

Parker and Jackson. *Jackson never made an AS game... ever
David ****ing Robinson *37 year old about to retire
Manu. *was a rookie who averaged 9 ppg on .38 FG%
Bowen. *averaged 7 ppg on .37 FG%

Wow....just.....Wow.

5 years ago that would be true....but not now. LOL

fixed

Duncan played 200+ minutes more than anybody on the Spurs in that PO run... and lead the team in assists.

Dirk has barely played more than 100 minutes, than Terry, Marion, and Kidd.

Let's be real here --- Duncan and Dirk are two completely different players.

[DMAVS41]

fixed

Duncan played 200+ minutes more than anybody on the Spurs in that PO run... and lead the team in assists.

Dirk has barely played more than 100 minutes, than Terry, Marion, and Kidd.

Let's be real here --- Duncan and Dirk are two completely different players.

Do you want me to do that with the Mavs?

All of these "all stars" are 4 and 5 years past their primes.

I could go on and on.

Its just hilarious that you actually think this is an all time great team.
:wtf:

[DMAVS41]

fixed

Duncan played 200+ minutes more than anybody on the Spurs in that PO run... and lead the team in assists.

Dirk has barely played more than 100 minutes, than Terry, Marion, and Kidd.

Let's be real here --- Duncan and Dirk are two completely different players.


Yes. You should look at your own words. Dirk is carrying this team with his all time great scoring in the 4th qtr and crunch time.

Duncan carried his team with better all around play and defense.

Like I have said, Duncan was a better player in 03. That is not the ****ing debate.

Its about which player would have the better playoff run.

You are taking the absurd stance that Dirk does not belong in the conversation.

Duncan beat scrub teams and did so in less impressive fashion. 12-6 vs weaker competition while the Mavs went 12-3.

Duncan faced the scrub Nets in the finals.
Dirk is facing a team probably 3 times as good as the Nets.

Dirk's clutch play so far has been at a level we've only seen from Michael freaking Jordan in the last 20 years.

You are damn right its different. Doesn't make it less impressive though.

Again, the teams the Spurs beat were jokes. You beat one real team. One. And you did so in less impressive fashion than the Mavs beat a quality team. Mavs swept the Lakers. You needed 6.

You aren't even addressing the question of the thread. This isn't a dirk vs duncan thread. Its about the playoff run...and that includes a lot of things you aren't even factoring in.

[SCdac]

Do you want me to do that with the Mavs?

All of these "all stars" are 4 and 5 years past their primes.

I could go on and on.

Its just hilarious that you actually think this is an all time great team.
:wtf:

They're former all-stars none the less...

not rookies, not second year players.

Duncan's second best player didn't even crack 15 PPG...

Let me guess, you think this Mavs team is one of the worst championship teams of all time? yadda yadda yadda

I just disagree man.

They're not the greatest team ever or anything (you probably think I'm saying that), but they're designed perfectly and as mentioned Cuban throws money to the wind, this team has the second highest payroll in the league.

Any team that get's this far deserves credit from the top to bottom.

Spurs could win a championship without David Robinson and they did... I don't think the Mavs could win and be this good without Tyson Chandler.

[Carbine]

Alright SDac, so if this Mavs team is one of the best single teams ever...they sure as hell didn't get that type of talk before the season started, and certainly not when Caron went down. I'd say half the basketball fans had them losing in the first round this year.

So now that they presumably get ringed up, they're all of a sudden one of the best teams ever? I don't think you go from having half the people in the world thinking you're going to lose in the first round to bonafide GREAT team in the span of four playoff rounds.

I think it has a lot more to do with Dirk stepping up his game and propelling his team to champions.

[SCdac]

Dirk's clutch play so far has been at a level we've only seen from Michael freaking Jordan in the last 20 years.

Ok man.... whatever you want to tell yourself.... This is becoming your opinion vs. me having an objective take.

I'm starting to think you didn't watch the NBA in 2003...

Like I said, Dirk belongs in the conversation... only on offense though, which is merely half the game.

Duncan's run in 2003 was in fact legendary.... Dirk's simply hasn't been as good... No way Dirk ever leads his team in assists, blocks, rebounds, and points en route to a Finals MVP.

[SCdac]

Alright SDac, so if this Mavs team is one of the best single teams ever...they sure as hell didn't get that type of talk before the season started, and certainly not when Caron went down. I'd say half the basketball fans had them losing in the first round this year.

So now that they presumably get ringed up, they're all of a sudden one of the best teams ever? I don't think you go from having half the people in the world thinking you're going to lose in the first round to bonafide GREAT team in the span of four playoff rounds.

I think it has a lot more to do with Dirk stepping up his game and propelling his team to champions.

Nah, not one of the best teams ever. But still a great team...

It's not that hard to understand.

And I could care less about public perception because everyone knew going into the playoffs the Mavs have been coming out of first and second round exits.... it's only natural to doubt them... That's more of a general sentiment, than specific to this team.

Again, let's give credit to Chandler for how his defense has improved the Mavs. I think he's a huge huge part of what has turned this team round.

[jlauber]

Even if Dirk's run isn't quite at the level of Hakeem's or Duncan's...IF the Mavs somehow go on to win the title...it will have been a marvelous run. At least Dirk is FINALLY shaking off the MYTHS that he has somehow been a "choker" in his career. If anything, he has OVER-ACHIEVED given the average rosters that he has been stuck with for most of it.

[DMAVS41]

Ok man.... whatever you want to tell yourself.... This is becoming your opinion vs. me having an objective take.

I'm starting to think you didn't watch the NBA in 2003...

Like I said, Dirk belongs in the conversation... only on offense though, which is merely half the game.

Duncan's run in 2003 was in fact legendary.... Dirk's simply hasn't been as good... No way Dirk ever leads his team in assists, blocks, rebounds, and points en route to a Finals MVP.

Objective?

You can't break down players like that. Magic Johnson never played defense. Never.

Yet he's one of the greatest players ever.

Its about overall impact.

And please tell me who has had a playoff run as clutch as this since Jordan? Thats not just opinion. We are talking epic 4th qtrs and clutch play that we simply have not seen since MJ.

You aren't being objective at all.

You rated the Mavs competition an 8 out of 10 and the spurs a 7 out of 10. Objective?

You lost all objectivity with that statement alone.

[SCdac]

Even if Dirk's run isn't quite at the level of Hakeem's or Duncan's...IF the Mavs somehow go on to win the title...it will have been a marvelous run. At least Dirk is FINALLY shaking off the MYTHS that he has somehow been a "choker" in his career. If anything, he has OVER-ACHIEVED given the average rosters that he has been stuck with for most of it.

You don't think Dirk's run has been better than Duncan's?

[DMAVS41]

Nah, not one of the best teams ever. But still a great team...

It's not that hard to understand.

And I could care less about public perception because everyone knew going into the playoffs the Mavs have been coming out of first and second round exits.... it's only natural to doubt them... That's more of a general sentiment, than specific to this team.

Again, let's give credit to Chandler for how his defense has improved the Mavs. I think he's a huge huge part of what has turned this team round.


And lets give credit to Robinson and Bowen for playing huge roles as to why the Spurs defense was so good in 03. They were vital to the success of that spurs team.

Lets give credit to Manu for being a better version of Barea.

Lets stay consistent. Something you have proven you are unwilling to do.

[SCdac]

Objective?

You can't break down players like that. Magic Johnson never played defense. Never.

Yet he's one of the greatest players ever.

Its about overall impact.

And please tell me who has had a playoff run as clutch as this since Jordan? Thats not just opinion. We are talking epic 4th qtrs and clutch play that we simply have not seen since MJ.

You aren't being objective at all.

You rated the Mavs competition an 8 out of 10 and the spurs a 7 out of 10. Objective?

You lost all objectivity with that statement alone.

You're not one to talk on objectivity Ginobili...

Let me ask you this, does this run (assuming they beat the Heat, which isn't a given, but just assuming)... does it put Dirk ahead of Duncan as a player? and if not... why?

I really don't understand, with your line of thinking, why you would consider Duncan better and more valuable to his respective teams back then.

Apparently, Duncan being the best defender in 2003, the best rebounder, and the best play maker for his team means nothing compared to Dirk's shooting.

[LA_Showtime]

overall, dirk's had more help than hakeem and duncan. there have been games and stretches this postseason where dirk's been just as good as those two, but overall he's had more help. he gets in the discussion though simply because he's been so clutch.

[DMAVS41]

Alright SDac, so if this Mavs team is one of the best single teams ever...they sure as hell didn't get that type of talk before the season started, and certainly not when Caron went down. I'd say half the basketball fans had them losing in the first round this year.

So now that they presumably get ringed up, they're all of a sudden one of the best teams ever? I don't think you go from having half the people in the world thinking you're going to lose in the first round to bonafide GREAT team in the span of four playoff rounds.

I think it has a lot more to do with Dirk stepping up his game and propelling his team to champions.

Bingo.

From the team that everyone wanted to play in the first round. From the team that at least half people picking picked the Blazers. From the team that were HUGE underdogs to beat the Lakers.

Now we are an all time great team? Bullshit. This is about Dirk playing legendary basketball overall and even better with the games on the line.

[SCdac]

[/B]

And lets give credit to Robinson and Bowen for playing huge roles as to why the Spurs defense was so good in 03. They were vital to the success of that spurs team.

Lets give credit to Manu for being a better version of Barea.

Lets stay consistent. Something you have proven you are unwilling to do.

How much credit DO you give to Chandler?

[LA_Showtime]

How much credit DO you give to Chandler?

chandler should get a mountain of credit. guys like noah are always praised for their hustle and the fact their numbers don't tell the whole story, and yet chandler's been overlooked all season.

[DMAVS41]

You're not one to talk on objectivity Ginobili...

Let me ask you this, does this run (assuming they beat the Heat, which isn't a given, but just assuming)... does it put Dirk ahead of Duncan as a player? and if not... why?

I really don't understand, with your line of thinking, why you would consider Duncan better and more valuable to his respective teams back then.

Apparently, Duncan being the best defender in 2003, the best rebounder, and the best play maker for his team means nothing compared to Dirk's shooting.

You aren't understanding the question. Its not about Dirk vs Duncan as players. I've said that from the beginning.

It has to do with so many factors.

Dirk has slightly more help than Duncan did. Dirk is facing much tougher competition than Duncan did. Dirk's legendary clutch play has now led the Mavs to the Finals and just won a road Finals game for us.

Take a look at what he just did man. We swept the Lakers with Dirk being unstoppable. We beat the Thunder in 5 with Dirk playing one of the best playoff games ever. All while he has been scoring 10 plus points in the 4th qtr and made clutch play after clutch play.

That is huge.

The difference in competition is enormous. And the fashion in which the Mavs got the finals is enormous. We didn't luck out with our WCF opponents best player going down.

And this thread is about IF the Mavs win. We are supposed to assume the Mavs win for the debate. Brining up the Mavs losing has no bearing on the topic at all.

Of course, if the mavs don't win it won't be a debate. How is that not obvious to you?

[DMAVS41]

How much credit DO you give to Chandler?

A ton. A little more than Robinson gets in 03. He provided all the same stuff.

[SCdac]

overall, dirk's had more help than hakeem and duncan. there have been games and stretches this postseason where dirk's been just as good as those two, but overall he's had more help. he gets in the discussion though simply because he's been so clutch.

I tend to agree with this...

Jason Terry tied the playoff record for made-three's in the game where the Mavs knocked out the Lakers. they also got...

32 points from Terry
22 points from Barea
21 points from Peja

not to shabby, at all.

If I was a Mavs fan, I'd be thrilled that Dirk has more help to the point where the Mavs are in the Finals...

I guess they'd rather he have a shitty team so they can cry about it and prop him up :facepalm

[BlueandGold]

People are jumping the gun way too soon, it's almost like the modus operandi of ISH to react way to soon to everything. It depends on what numbers Dirk puts up the rest of the series, and if the Mavs even win. And even then Duncan's 03 might be better. He was literally the 1st and 2nd option for that team that year, on offense and on defense. He was 1 block away from a quadruple-double in the closeout game and their 2nd option that year was a combination of a 40 y/o robinson and a 21 y/o Parker. Let's also not forget that the Spurs faced the Lakers too in 03, and beat an unstoppable Kobe/Shaq duo in their prime.

[LA_Showtime]

i know it sounds like i'm hating, but dallas' bench and their front court duo of chandler/haywood deserve just as much credit as dirk for the mavericks playoff run.

[DMAVS41]

i know it sounds like i'm hating, but dallas' bench and their front court duo of chandler/haywood deserve just as much credit as dirk for the mavericks playoff run.

As long as you give the same credit to Rose/Robinson and the Spurs role players in 03 I'm cool with that.

They are virtually identical in production and guys like Bowen and Manu are much better defensive players than Peja/Barea.

[DMAVS41]

I tend to agree with this...

Jason Terry tied the playoff record for made-three's in the game where the Mavs knocked out the Lakers. they also got...

32 points from Terry
22 points from Barea
21 points from Peja

not to shabby, at all.

If I was a Mavs fan, I'd be thrilled that Dirk has more help to the point where the Mavs are in the Finals...

I guess they'd rather he have a shitty team so they can cry about it and prop him up :facepalm


Thats a pathetic statement.

Especially when you continue to hate on your Spurs in 03. Praising Chandler and calling Robinson old even though he provided all the same stuff.

Hating on Malik Rose even though he played better than Haywood has.

Not mentioning Manu or Bowen at all. Not talking about the huge games that Parker had.

LOL

[LA_Showtime]

As long as you give the same credit to Rose/Robinson and the Spurs role players in 03 I'm cool with that.

They are virtually identical in production and guys like Bowen and Manu are much better defensive players than Peja/Barea.

yeah. i think history has changed the way people have viewed duncan's title in 03 because most of those role players went on to become all-stars and/or great role players.

with the mavericks, most of those guys won't even be on the team next year, and really it's perfect circumstances that are allowing them to excel. i doubt half of the mavericks' bench gets resigned, and even chandler's a question mark.

[SCdac]

[/B]

Thats a pathetic statement.

Especially when you continue to hate on your Spurs in 03. Praising Chandler and calling Robinson old even though he provided all the same stuff.

Hating on Malik Rose even though he played better than Haywood has.

Not mentioning Manu or Bowen at all. Not talking about the huge games that Parker had.

LOL

The Spurs team in 2003 was badass! (note: not an all time great, I mean badass as in I loved them)

I don't hate the 2003 Spurs --- quite the opposite!!! haha

I can watch those games on youtube everyday and not get bored...

Duncan definitely got help --- just like Dirk has gotten help --- just like Jordan has gotten help --- just like Garnett has gotten help... etc.

Every great player didn't win alone.

It's y'all Dirk homers who are acting like he means just as much to the Mavs (in the playoffs) as Duncan and Hakeem... I just don't agree. There's offense and there's defense in basketball, and Duncan/Hakeem's impact on that end, in combination with their stellar offense, eclipses clutch shooting performances from Dirk.

I don't hate on the any of the Spurs --- it's just we're talking about some players that never made an AS game in their lives (Malik Rose, Stephen Jackson, Bruce Bowen, Speedy Claxton, etc).

Duncan recorded 7 assists or more in a handful of games in the playoffs with that roster... I can't think of anything Dirk could (realistically) do that would surpass that... It would have to be pretty amazing.

[LA_Showtime]

i also think speedy claxton is getting undervalued on here. he was arguably the spurs most consistent point guard that year.

[SCdac]

i also think speedy claxton is getting undervalued on here. he was arguably the spurs most consistent point guard that year.

just goes to show how crappy a young Tony Parker played back then though... was getting benched for Claxton, who himself was a #20 overall pick, never even came close to being picked for an AS game, and his career flamed out big time a few years after winning that championship. Claxton was a warrior though, I liked him.

[rmt]

He got fouled more because he can't make free throws.

DMAVS41 - have to disagree with you here. TD shot 71% FT 02-03 - not exactly Shaq-like. TD was fantastic in the post that year and it was either double-team him and open up the shooters or single cover him and either foul him or he was going to score.


Its impossible to put a numerical value on it, but Dirk's 4th qtr and crunch time play might be the equivalent to Duncan's rebounding or defense.

Dirk 2011 playoffs
28.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 2.8 asst / .6 blk on 50.5% FG (17 games)

Duncan 2003 playoffs
24.7 pts / 15.4 rebs / 5.3 asst / 3.3 blk on 52.9% FG (24 games)

Ask yourself whether Dirk's 3.4 points (at a lower percentage) are equivalent to Duncan's 7.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists and 2.7 blocks. Yes, Dirk has been very clutch but at the end of the game those 28 points are still 28 points regardless of when they were scored. Defense, however, is half of the game and all the shots that were altered/changed by Duncan in the paint can't be measured.

I still contend that the difference between the Mavs that got eliminated by the Spurs in the first round last year (with Caron Butler) and this year's team that's gotten to the Finals is the defense (largely attributed to the presence of Chandler). These are Dirk's stats for the past 4 playoffs:

07-08
26.8 points / 12 rebs 47.3% FG

08-09
26.8 points / 10.1 rebs 51.8% FG

09-10
26.7 points / 8.2 rebs 54.7% FG

10-11
28.1 points / 7.8 rebs 50.5% FG

So Dirk is scoring 1.4 points more and .4 rebounds less than last year's run. Not much difference scoring and much less rebounding in the last 4 years. The difference is Chandler - not Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

yeah. i think history has changed the way people have viewed duncan's title in 03 because most of those role players went on to become all-stars and/or great role players.

with the mavericks, most of those guys won't even be on the team next year, and really it's perfect circumstances that are allowing them to excel. i doubt half of the mavericks' bench gets resigned, and even chandler's a question mark.

Yep.

I am not saying Dirk is doing this alone. Nobody ever has. Marion has played great. Kidd has really stepped up. Terry has been inconsistent as usual and still doesn't defend or rebound, but he's playing a lot better than he has the last few years in the playoffs.....so I'll take it.

Chandler has been a beast. Barea has been a spark plug off the bench. Peja has had some key moments...etc.



However, that is true with the 03 Spurs as well. Robinson and Rose were beasts. Parker had some huge games. Jackson played great all around ball very similar to Marion.

Manu was a better version of Barea/Peja.
Bowen was a better version of Stevenson.
Claxton has some moments....etc.

Like I have said, I give the edge in supporting cast to Dirk mainly because of Kidd. Outside of Kidd, the Spurs have better players. But what Kidd provides on both ends is something Duncan didn't have. So I give the edge to Dirk.

But when you start factoring in the competition differences and the differences in how the Mavs won, it becomes an argument.

The Mavs went 12-3 in the West against better teams and swept the freaking Lakers.
The Spurs went 12-6 against weaker teams.

And then the Spurs beat a 49 win Nets team in the finals. That would not even be remotely comparable to this Mavs team beating the Lebron/Wade Heat.

Nobody is saying Dirk is a better player than Duncan. I'm saying his playoff run would be on the same level.

Which it absolutely would be if the Mavs beat the Heat in the finals and Dirk continues to dominate games late.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS41 - have to disagree with you here. TD shot 71% FT 02-03 - not exactly Shaq-like. TD was fantastic in the post that year and it was either double-team him and open up the shooters or single cover him and either foul him or he was going to score.



Dirk 2011 playoffs
28.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 2.8 asst / .6 blk on 50.5% FG (17 games)

Duncan 2003 playoffs
24.7 pts / 15.4 rebs / 5.3 asst / 3.3 blk on 52.9% FG (24 games)

Ask yourself whether Dirk's 3.4 points (at a lower percentage) are equivalent to Duncan's 7.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists and 2.7 blocks. Yes, Dirk has been very clutch but at the end of the game those 28 points are still 28 points regardless of when they were scored. Defense, however, is half of the game and all the shots that were altered/changed by Duncan in the paint can't be measured.

I still contend that the difference between the Mavs that got eliminated by the Spurs in the first round last year (with Caron Butler) and this year's team that's gotten to the Finals is the defense (largely attributed to the presence of Chandler). These are Dirk's stats for the past 4 playoffs:

07-08
26.8 points / 12 rebs 47.3% FG

08-09
26.8 points / 10.1 rebs 51.8% FG

09-10
26.7 points / 8.2 rebs 54.7% FG

10-11
28.1 points / 7.8 rebs 50.5% FG

So Dirk is scoring 1.4 points more and .4 rebounds less than last year's run. Not much difference scoring and much less rebounding in the last 4 years. The difference is Chandler - not Dirk.

1. Duncan shot 68% in the playoffs from the ft line. That is absolutely a factor in why he got fouled a lot. Thats a lot better than letting him dunk or make a clean shot. Dirk is shooting 94%. If you foul him, its two points. Huge difference. Could not disagree more that poor free throw shooting isn't a factor.

2. I also could not disagree more about 28 points being 28 points. If you aren't going to factor in the 4th qtr scoring and many clutch plays/shots then its just not a fair comparison. The fact remains that close games are inevitable and throughout this run Dirk has been playing clutch ball like we have not seen since MJ. That matters a lot actually.

3. Chandler has made a huge difference. Dirk has been playing at a similar level for quite some time now. Totally agree.

I don't see the relevance that has for this debate though.

Duncan put up the exact same numbers in 02. Actually, Duncan's numbers in the playoffs were better in 02. So what was the difference in 03?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Under your logic the difference would certainly not be Duncan.

It would be who? David Robinson. Thats right. The Robinson that was hurt in the 02 playoffs. So if you want to say Chandler is the difference for the Mavs this year, you have to say that Manu/Robinson were the difference for the spurs. Stay consistent please.

[BlueandGold]

DMAVS41 - have to disagree with you here. TD shot 71% FT 02-03 - not exactly Shaq-like. TD was fantastic in the post that year and it was either double-team him and open up the shooters or single cover him and either foul him or he was going to score.



Dirk 2011 playoffs
28.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 2.8 asst / .6 blk on 50.5% FG (17 games)

Duncan 2003 playoffs
24.7 pts / 15.4 rebs / 5.3 asst / 3.3 blk on 52.9% FG (24 games)

Ask yourself whether Dirk's 3.4 points (at a lower percentage) are equivalent to Duncan's 7.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists and 2.7 blocks. Yes, Dirk has been very clutch but at the end of the game those 28 points are still 28 points regardless of when they were scored. Defense, however, is half of the game and all the shots that were altered/changed by Duncan in the paint can't be measured.

I still contend that the difference between the Mavs that got eliminated by the Spurs in the first round last year (with Caron Butler) and this year's team that's gotten to the Finals is the defense (largely attributed to the presence of Chandler). These are Dirk's stats for the past 4 playoffs:

07-08
26.8 points / 12 rebs 47.3% FG

08-09
26.8 points / 10.1 rebs 51.8% FG

09-10
26.7 points / 8.2 rebs 54.7% FG

10-11
28.1 points / 7.8 rebs 50.5% FG

So Dirk is scoring 1.4 points more and .4 rebounds less than last year's run. Not much difference scoring and much less rebounding in the last 4 years. The difference is Chandler - not Dirk.

Those are telling numbers but it's not only the rebounds. Dirk operates more in the paint on the offensive end as well, leading to more FTs and more points. Also it's not just the amount of points and rebounds he's averaged but the time of the game in which those points and rebounds have come. He scored nearly every meaningful basketball for the Mavs in game 2 on top of leading the team in rebounding. The lack of rebounds doesn't mean that his game as regressed. In fact I think most commentators and "experts" will tell us the opposite, that his game has evolved. We could say that Dirk is playing better because of Chandler or look at it the other way and say that Chandler is playing better because of Dirk.

Anyways both are surefire 1st ballot hall of famers who have had amazing playoff runs in their own right, even taking away 03 from Duncan and 11 from Dirk their careers would still be in the top echelon of power forwards.

[Anaximandro1]

Dirk is the most underrated superstar in the NBA.Now,this guy's having a legendary playoff run,and everyone realizes he is one of the 20 greatest players to ever play in the NBA. :applause:

However, there are still some things that need to be addressed

And you need to stop pretending Duncan ever provided this type of offense and close-out ability in a playoff run. Dirk's offensive explosions and clutch performances this year outmatch any that duncan has ever put up.. It's true that Dirk is a much better closer than Duncan (or Hakeem).However,Duncan (or Hakeem) is more dominant offensively.

1)-Duncan scored at will in the paint,and his field goal percentage was insane.

2003 WCSF SAS-LAL

Game 4 36 pts (10/17 58%)
Game 5 27 pts (11/22 50%)
Game 6 37 pts (16/25 64%)
2003 WCF SAS-DAL

Game 1 40 pts (14/20 70%)
Game 2 32 pts (11/21 52%)
Game 3 34 pts (12/19 63%)
2-Given his dominance,Duncan demanded double teams,created space for teammates and knew how to find them:Tim was the Spurs playmaker.Just an example.

2003 WCSF SAS-LAL


Game 4 5 Ast
Game 5 5 Ast
Game 6 4 Ast

2003 WCF SAS-DAL

Game 1 7 Ast
Game 2 5 Ast
Game 3 6 Ast
Game 4 7 Ast
Game 5 6 Ast
Game 6 4 Ast

3-Duncan was one of the greatest offensive rebounders of all time,which got second chance opportunities for his team.Just an example.

2003 WCSF SAS-LAL


Game 5 3 ORB
Game 6 6 ORB

2003 WCF SAS-DAL

Game 1 3 ORB
Game 2 5 ORB
Game 3 8 ORB
Game 4 4 ORB
Game 5 5 ORB
Game 6 3 ORB


As far as competition goes it really isn't close..
Yeah,you can't compare Bosh,Joel Anthony,Ibaka,Gasol to prime Shaq,Mutombo,Kenyon Martin,Amare...

can you imagine? Peak Duncan vs. Bosh and Anthony :roll: :roll:

[rmt]

2. Chandler has made a huge difference. Dirk has been playing at a similar level for quite some time now. Totally agree.

I don't see the relevance that has for this debate though.

Duncan put up the exact same numbers in 02. Actually, Duncan's numbers in the playoffs were better in 02. So what was the difference in 03?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Under your logic the difference would certainly not be Duncan.


2. You don't see the relevance that if Dirk has been playing at a similar level for years, and Chandler is the big addition to this year's team - that Chandler then is the difference between last year's and this year's team?

3. Spurs 01-02 team did not have Manu, Stephen Jackson did not play in the playoffs and Parker was a 19 year old rookie - is that enough difference for you?

[DMAVS41]

2. You don't see the relevance that if Dirk has been playing at a similar level for years, and Chandler is the big addition to this year's team - that Chandler then is the difference between last year's and this year's team?

3. Spurs 01-02 team did not have Manu, Stephen Jackson did not play in the playoffs and Parker was a 19 year old rookie - is that enough difference for you?

What?

I said Chandler is a huge difference. I'm not disputing that.

Just like Robinson and Manu were huge in 03.

LOL. Its not hard.

Duncan was actually better in 02. The biggest difference in the team in 03 was not Duncan.

Dirk was actually just as good or better last year. The biggest difference in the team this year was not Dirk.

Its the exact same logic. Stay consistent please.

You basically implied that Chandler is the reason the Mavs are winning. I just used your exact same line of thinking and applied it to Duncan and the Spurs.

So your point holds not water.

[BlueandGold]

2. You don't see the relevance that if Dirk has been playing at a similar level for years, and Chandler is the big addition to this year's team - that Chandler then is the difference between last year's and this year's team?

3. Spurs 01-02 team did not have Manu, Stephen Jackson did not play in the playoffs and Parker was a 19 year old rookie - is that enough difference for you?

This argument and line of reasoning is absolutely ridiculous. Chandler is a 8/10 type of player. Dirk has been a 25/8 player for nearly a decade. Dirk has gotten to the finals without Chandler. Chandler has not gotten to the finals without dirk.

By using your same logic I could say that the reason why the Lakers lost this year is because of Sasha Vujacic.

[SCdac]

Duncan also won a championship alongside Francisco Oberto and Nazr Mohammed though... both of which were not as good as current Chandler, and an an older post-injury Robinson... On the other hand, Dirk failed to get it done with comparable centers (to Rasho, Nazr, and Oberto) in Dampier, Diop, and Haywood last season... Meaning, it's not unreasonable to say Chandler is a difference maker --- hell Mavs fans were saying it all season! now I guess they're backtracking

[DMAVS41]

This argument and line of reasoning is absolutely ridiculous. Chandler is a 8/10 type of player. Dirk has been a 25/8 player for nearly a decade. Dirk has gotten to the finals without Chandler. Chandler has not gotten to the finals without dirk.

By using your same logic I could say that the reason why the Lakers lost this year is because of Sasha Vujacic.

I already destroyed him.

Look.

Duncan in 02 put up 28 points 14 boards 5 assists
Duncan in 03 put up 25 points 15 boards 5 assists

The difference in getting owned in 5 in the 2nd round and winning the title next year had nothing to do with Duncan then.....according to his flawed logic.

What was the difference? Robinson. He was hurt in 02. Played great in 03. Manu. They didn't have him in 02. Played great in 03.

So his line of thinking does not hold up at all. LOL

[DMAVS41]

Duncan also won a championship alongside Francisco Oberto and Nazr Mohammed though... both of which were not as good as current Chandler, and an an older post-injury Robinson... On the other hand, Dirk failed to get it done with comparable centers (to Rasho, Nazr, and Oberto) in Dampier, Diop, and Haywood last season... Meaning, it's not unreasonable to say Chandler is a difference maker --- hell Mavs fans were saying it all season! now I guess they're backtracking

No. Just no.

Nobody is disputing Chandler's impact. Its been huge. Its the difference in this team for sure. Dirk is playing at a very similar level this year that he did the last few years.

The problem is when you say Chandler is the difference maker and then turn around and not apply that same line of thinking to Duncan. Clearly not having a healthy Robinson was a huge negative for the Spurs in 02. Duncan played as well or better, and they lost in the 2nd round in 5.

The next year, Robinson comes back and plays great and the Spurs win the title. They also had Manu.

If you use the same logic, Robinson and Manu were the difference makers.

Sorry. Stay consistent please.

And again, stop bringing up other years. LOL......

[SCdac]

No. Just no.

Nobody is disputing Chandler's impact. Its been huge. Its the difference in this team for sure. Dirk is playing at a very similar level this year that he did the last few years.

The problem is when you say Chandler is the difference maker and then turn around and not apply that same line of thinking to Duncan. Clearly not having a healthy Robinson was a huge negative for the Spurs in 02. Duncan played as well or better, and they lost in the 2nd round in 5.

The next year, Robinson comes back and plays great and the Spurs win the title. They also had Manu.

If you use the same logic, Robinson and Manu were the difference makers.

Sorry. Stay consistent please.

And again, stop bringing up other years. LOL......

Are you implying that the makeup of the Spurs and Mavs teams are completely identical? and that every player has an exact equivalent on the other team? ... your thinking is so black and white, it's actually kind of weird.

Of course having a good team is important --- Duncan won championships with completely different rosters though ... so you can't say he can't win without David Robinson.

He did win without David Robinson - twice.

Not having your starting center for the playoffs is going to kill any team...

The Mavs in most years had their starting center, though. Right now, they have basically two starting centers on the same roster, considering how talented Haywood is.

[DMAVS41]

Are you implying that the makeup of the Spurs and Mavs teams are completely identical? and that every player has an exact equivalent on the other team? ... your thinking is so black and white, it's actually kind of weird.

Of course having a good team is important --- Duncan won championships with completely different rosters though ... so you can't say he can't win without David Robinson.

He did win without David Robinson - twice.

Not having your starting center for the playoffs is going to kill any team...

The Mavs in most years had their starting center, though. Right now, they have basically two starting centers on the same roster, considering how talented Haywood is.

I'm sticking to the thread.

This is not about Duncan vs Dirk all time. Something you still can't ****ing grasp.

I have Tim Duncan as my 6th best player of all time. Dirk is around 23rd all time for me. There is no comparison.

I am comparing 03 to 11 in terms of a playoff run. Other years have no bearing in the debate actually.

However, if you are going to try and credit Chandler for being the reason for the Mavs success, I will use the same logic and give Robinson/Manu/Jackson credit for being the difference for the Spurs.

So please stay on point and consistent. Its simply not fair...especially when we saw what happened to Duncan without Robinson. I hope you aren't comparing Haywood to Robinson....LOL

[SCdac]

I'm sticking to the thread.

This is not about Duncan vs Dirk all time. Something you still can't ****ing grasp.

I have Tim Duncan as my 6th best player of all time. Dirk is around 23rd all time for me. There is no comparison.

I am comparing 03 to 11 in terms of a playoff run. Other years have no bearing in the debate actually.

However, if you are going to try and credit Chandler for being the reason for the Mavs success, I will use the same logic and give Robinson/Manu/Jackson credit for being the difference for the Spurs.

So please stay on point and consistent. Its simply not fair...especially when we saw what happened to Duncan without Robinson. I hope you aren't comparing Haywood to Robinson....LOL

Yeah, we saw what happened without Robinson...

He went on to win 2 more championships ... with lesser centers.

At the end of the day, Dirk right now was not the player Duncan was in 2003 PLAYOFFS.

Duncan lead his team in assists, blocks, rebounds, points, minutes, and free throws...

and in the Finals blocked an NBA-record 32 shots. read that again. 32 shots in 6 games of the Finals.

One of a kind playoff run. Better than Dirk's current one, sorry, don't mean to offend, but it is.

[DMAVS41]

You know what, playoff PER is exactly how I feel about the individual overall play.

Duncan had a 28.4 PER in 03
Dirk has a 26.1 PER in 02

Duncan's individual play has been about 8% better overall. What a perfect way to actually quantify how I feel.

Now, when you factor in Dirk's insane clutch play and the competition, I think the gap narrows a bit.

Which brings me back to my main point. The two runs would absolutely be on the same level if the Mavs win the title.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, we saw what happened without Robinson...

He went on to win 2 more championships ... with lesser centers.

At the end of the day, Dirk right now was not the player Duncan was in 2003 PLAYOFFS.

Duncan lead his team in assists, blocks, rebounds, points, minutes, and free throws...

and in the Finals blocked an NBA-record 32 shots. read that again. 32 shots in 6 games of the Finals.

One of a kind playoff run. Better than Dirk's current one, sorry, don't mean to offend, but it is.

Offend? What?

You still can't grasp that so much more goes into a playoff run than the narrow view you have. I'll repeat my above post:

You know what, playoff PER is exactly how I feel about the individual overall play.

Duncan had a 28.4 PER in 03
Dirk has a 26.1 PER in 02

Duncan's individual play has been about 8% better overall. What a perfect way to actually quantify how I feel.

Now, when you factor in Dirk's insane clutch play and the competition, I think the gap narrows a bit.

Which brings me back to my main point. The two runs would absolutely be on the same level if the Mavs win the title.

[rmt]

What?

I said Chandler is a huge difference. I'm not disputing that.

Just like Robinson and Manu were huge in 03.

LOL. Its not hard.

Duncan was actually better in 02. The biggest difference in the team in 03 was not Duncan.

Dirk was actually just as good or better last year. The biggest difference in the team this year was not Dirk.

Its the exact same logic. Stay consistent please.

You basically implied that Chandler is the reason the Mavs are winning. I just used your exact same line of thinking and applied it to Duncan and the Spurs.

So your point holds not water.

The 02-03 Spurs team was very different from the 01-02 team - when your 2nd option was a 19 year old rookie and your 3rd and 4th options either weren't on the team or didn't play in the playoffs, the teams are nothing alike.

For the Mavs, their team is basically the same except for Chandler.

[SCdac]

You know what, playoff PER is exactly how I feel about the individual overall play.

Duncan had a 28.4 PER in 03
Dirk has a 26.1 PER in 02

Duncan's individual play has been about 8% better overall. What a perfect way to actually quantify how I feel.

Now, when you factor in Dirk's insane clutch play and the competition, I think the gap narrows a bit.

Which brings me back to my main point. The two runs would absolutely be on the same level if the Mavs win the title.

but you said Dirk's was "more impressive" in one of your earlier posts... not just on the same level

do you or do you not stand by that? honestly. it's ok to revise your statement

[DMAVS41]

The 02-03 Spurs team was very different from the 01-02 team - when your 2nd option was a 19 year old rookie and your 3rd and 4th options either weren't on the team or didn't play in the playoffs, the teams are nothing alike.

For the Mavs, their team is basically the same except for Chandler.

Wrong.

We aren't playing Butler or Roddy. Haywood and Stevenson barely had any time to gel after the trade deadline last year. We didn't have Peja either. Damp is no longer playing as well.

Totally different team.

LOL

[Odinn]

In NBA history with four consecutive playoff games of 30 points and 15 rebounds. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor and Tim Duncan.

2003 - Lakers series - Game6 - 37 pts 16 rebs (6off) + (4 ast 2 blk)
2003 - Mavs series - Game1 - 40 pts 15 rebs (3 off) + (7 ast 1 blk)
2003 - Mavs series - Game2 - 32 pts 15 rebs (5 off) + (5 ast 3 blk)
2003 - Mavs series - Game3 - 34 pts 24 rebs (8 off) + (6 ast 6 blk)

Average; 35.8 pts 17.5 rebs 5.5 ast 3 blk

[DMAVS41]

but you said Dirk's was "more impressive" in one of your earlier posts... not just on the same level

do you or do you not stand by that? honestly. it's ok to revise your statement

No. I stand by it for sure. I'd give the slight edge to Dirk's run if we beat the Heat. Which is what this thread assumes.

I was saying that at the very least they should be on the same level.

I think the level of competition is much different than you do though. I would rate it at about a 9 out of 10 for the Mavs and a 5 out of 10 for the Spurs.

I also greatly value Dirk's clutch play....much more than you do.


If I thought like you, then no, I would not give the edge to Dirk. I would give the edge to Duncan.

Which I'm cool with. That is your opinion.

Saying they don't belong on the same level though is a joke. Sorry. Don't mean to offend. Just the truth.

[SCdac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ&feature=related

again, for those who didn't watch in person.

Duncan dropped 37 points on the Lakers to end their dynasty, some of them he was guarded by prime Shaquille O'Neal.

Shaq back then was arguably better than anyone on the current Heat.

It is NOT a knock to say Duncan's run was better than Dirk's current one.

[DMAVS41]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ&feature=related

again, for those who didn't watch in person.

Duncan dropped 37 points on the Lakers to end their dynasty, some of them he was guarded by prime Shaquille O'Neal.

Shaq back then was arguably better than anyone on the current Heat.

It is NOT a knock to say Duncan's run was better than Dirk's current one.


And nobody has a problem with anyone saying that.

What I have a problem with is people saying Dirk's run doesn't deserve to be on the same level.

Huge difference.

[SCdac]

[/B]

And nobody has a problem with anyone saying that.


Nor should they :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ&feature=related

again, for those who didn't watch in person.

Duncan dropped 37 points on the Lakers to end their dynasty, some of them he was guarded by prime Shaquille O'Neal.

Shaq back then was arguably better than anyone on the current Heat.

It is NOT a knock to say Duncan's run was better than Dirk's current one.

What a great game. Spurs just took it to them. Didn't they win by like 40 points?


Dirk's great game effectively ending the Lakers run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD5eg7Col3U

Dirk dropped 32 and led the comeback on the Lakers to end their dynasty. Dirk did it in a tight game by coming up huge late....just like he has all playoffs long.

[SinJackal]

Dirk's offense this playoffs is undoubtedly up there with all time best playoff offensive performances ever for a lead player. He's been clutch, he's been efficient, he's been scoring in large volume. Everything you can ask for out of an offensive player, Dirk has done it.

His defense though? In all honesty, it's been as close to being a non factor as you can possibly get without simply just being a bad defender (which I'm not saying he is). He rarely even help defends on drives, and typically guards non-impact players. He has guarded mostly scrub offensive bigs the entire playoffs. Camby, Ibaka, and now Joel Anthony. -_- The only time he even had to work was against the Lakers, where they put him on Gasol who was whining about losing his girlfriend the whole series, and could barely carry his purse down the floor.


Duncan and Hakeem on the other hand, were both huge presences on BOTH ends of the floor. All the while, neither was much worse than Dirk offensively (Only 3 less PPG for Duncan, but was more efficient taking far less shots to attain those points too, while Hakeem was a BETTER scorer than Dirk during his run in terms of both volume and efficiency), and both were radically better than Dirk on the defensive end. . . going through some of the best bigs in the NBA (whom they actually DID match up with). Those being: Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing for Hakeem, and Duncan had to go through Amar'e, Shaq, Dirk (whom Duncan shat all over averaging 35/18/6, 3 blocks and 62% scoring games every single time against that series until Dirk got injured near the end of game 3.), and then beasted the Nets in the Finals nearly getting a quadruple double to close that shit out.

Duncan averaged 25/15/5 on 53% that playoffs. Oh, and throw in 3.3 BPG.
Dirk is averaging 28/8/3 on 50%. with 0.5 blocks. gtfo. It's not the same at all. It is in fact, not even close.

Duncan nearly literally averaged almost TWICE the rebounds, TWICE the assists, SIX TIMES the blocks, and only three less PPG. . .Hakeem averaged MORE points, 50% more rebounds, almost EIGHT TIMES the blocks, FOUR TIMES the steals, nearly TWICE the assists. . .and you guys are saying Dirk belongs in the same discussion. :facepalm

He doesn't. He only belongs in offensive greatness discussions. Because his offense has been without question, nothing short of great. All time great in fact.

But the fact remains, he does NOT belong in overall dominance discussions. Dirk has to wait to get the ball back to really impact the game. Duncan and Hakeem didn't. Therefore, they were on a completely different level that Dirk is right now, and I don't see how this comparison is warranted. Dirk's defense isn't even half what those two were. And his offense isn't 50% better than theirs to make up for it. Duncan and Hakeem's runs are in a different category. One Dirk can never belong to. There's #1 and #2, then there's the rest.

Basically, Dirk is getting adulation because he has no 20 PPG scorers on his team. Plenty of dudes have won titles under those circumstances. Or maybe it's because there were no other players who were all stars. . .this year anyway. But he has great players on his team anyway, who are all proven players; Shawn Marion, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler, etc. So let's not act like these Mavs suck besides Dirk or something.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk's offense this playoffs is undoubtedly up there with all time best playoff offensive performances ever for a lead player. He's been clutch, he's been efficient, he's been scoring in large volume. Everything you can ask for out of an offensive player, Dirk has done it.

His defense though? In all honesty, it's been as close to being a non factor as you can possibly get without simply just being a bad defender (which I'm not saying he is). He rarely even help defends on drives, and typically guards non-impact players. He has guarded mostly scrub offensive bigs the entire playoffs. Camby, Ibaka, and now Joel Anthony. -_- The only time he even had to work was against the Lakers, where they put him on Gasol who was whining about losing his girlfriend the whole series, and could barely carry his purse down the floor.


Duncan and Hakeem on the other hand, were both huge presences on BOTH ends of the floor. All the while, neither was much worse than Dirk offensively (Only 3 less PPG for Duncan, but was more efficient taking far less shots to attain those points too, while Hakeem was a BETTER scorer than Dirk during his run in terms of both volume and efficiency), and both were radically better than Dirk on the defensive end. . . going through some of the best bigs in the NBA (whom they actually DID match up with). Those being: Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing for Hakeem, and Duncan had to go through Amar'e, Shaq, Dirk (whom Duncan shat all over averaging 35/18/6, 3 blocks and 62% scoring games every single time against that series until Dirk got injured near the end of game 3.), and then beasted the Nets in the Finals nearly getting a quadruple double to close that shit out.

Duncan averaged 25/15/5 on 53% that playoffs. Oh, and throw in 3.3 BPG.
Dirk is averaging 28/8/3 on 50%. with 0.5 blocks. gtfo. It's not the same at all. It is in fact, not even close.

Duncan nearly literally averaged almost TWICE the rebounds, TWICE the assists, SIX TIMES the blocks, and only three less PPG. . .Hakeem averaged MORE points, 50% more rebounds, almost EIGHT TIMES the blocks, FOUR TIMES the steals, nearly TWICE the assists. . .and you guys are saying Dirk belongs in the same discussion. :facepalm

He doesn't. He only belongs in offensive greatness discussions. Because his offense has been without question, nothing short of great. All time great in fact.

But the fact remains, he does NOT belong in overall dominance discussions. Dirk has to wait to get the ball back to really impact the game. Duncan and Hakeem didn't. Therefore, they were on a completely different level that Dirk is right now, and I don't see how this comparison is warranted. Dirk's defense isn't even half what those two were. And his offense isn't 50% better than theirs to make up for it. Duncan and Hakeem's runs are in a different category. One Dirk can never belong to. There's #1 and #2, then there's the rest.

Basically, Dirk is getting adulation because he has no 20 PPG scorers on his team. Plenty of dudes have won titles under those circumstances. Or maybe it's because there were no other players who were all stars. . .this year anyway. But he has great players on his team anyway, who are all proven players; Shawn Marion, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler, etc. So let's not act like these Mavs suck besides Dirk or something.

Actually, Dirk is getting props because this team doesn't have another all nba teammate. Only Duncan/Hakeem/Jordan have done that in the last 20 plus years. And really Jordan doesn't count because Pippen was definitely an elite player in 91.

Really only Hakeem and Duncan have done it in the last 30 years. That would be winning a title without and elite 2nd option. Dirk would join them if he wins it this year.

And furthermore, the competition he's faced is significantly better than what Duncan faced.

[SinJackal]

In NBA history with four consecutive playoff games of 30 points and 15 rebounds. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor and Tim Duncan.

2003 - Lakers series - Game6 - 37 pts 16 rebs (6off) + (4 ast 2 blk)
2003 - Mavs series - Game1 - 40 pts 15 rebs (3 off) + (7 ast 1 blk)
2003 - Mavs series - Game2 - 32 pts 15 rebs (5 off) + (5 ast 3 blk)
2003 - Mavs series - Game3 - 34 pts 24 rebs (8 off) + (6 ast 6 blk)

3 of those 4 were against Dirk. :roll:

[SCdac]

What a great game. Spurs just took it to them. Didn't they win by like 40 points?


Dirk's great game effectively ending the Lakers run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD5eg7Col3U

Dirk dropped 32 and led the comeback on the Lakers to end their dynasty. Dirk did it in a tight game by coming up huge late....just like he has all playoffs long.

that was a good game...

the game in which the Mavs ended the Lakers run (Game 4) Dirk put up 17 points and 7 rebounds, and the Mavs got 86 points off their bench.

[DMAVS41]

3 of those 4 were against Dirk. :roll:

So?

What does that have to do with the 2011 run.

I might as well bring up Dirk beating Duncan in a game 7 in 2006 as if it means something.

Nobody is putting Dirk in Duncan's class as a player.

But this playoff run would absolutely be on the same level if the Mavs go on to beat the Heat.

Duncan's run consisted of him putting up great numbers against scrub teams. Give me a ****ing break man. 49 win Nets? Beating the Mavs without Dirk? LOL

Please don't compare that with the teams the Mavs have had to face.

[DMAVS41]

that was a good game...

the game in which the Mavs ended the Lakers run (Game 4) Dirk put up 17 points and 7 rebounds, and the Mavs got 86 points off their bench.

And the series was already over.

I guess I should talk about Duncan's 12 point game against the Lakers in which the Spurs won by 20 points. With Bowen scoring 27 points.

LOL.......I can play this game as long as you want dude.

[rmt]

Wrong.

We aren't playing Butler or Roddy. Haywood and Stevenson barely had any time to gel after the trade deadline last year. We didn't have Peja either. Damp is no longer playing as well.

Totally different team.

LOL
Yes, Butler is injured. But you still have your main guys - your 2nd, 3rd and 4th options (Terry, Marion, Kidd). Barea played the same 17 mins. both years and Roddy only 7.8 mins last year.

[Odinn]

So?

What does that have to do with the 2011 run.

I might as well bring up Dirk beating Duncan in a game 7 in 2006 as if it means something.

Nobody is putting Dirk in Duncan's class as a player.

But this playoff run would absolutely be on the same level if the Mavs go on to beat the Heat.

Duncan's run consisted of him putting up great numbers against scrub teams. Give me a ****ing break man. 49 win Nets? Beating the Mavs without Dirk? LOL

Please don't compare that with the teams the Mavs have had to face.
Dirk played 44 mins in game1, 39 mins in game2, 40 mins in game3.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, Butler is injured. But you still have your main guys - your 2nd, 3rd and 4th options (Terry, Marion, Kidd). Barea played the same 17 mins. both years and Roddy only 7.8 mins last year.

Its a different team. Totally different. Butler was our 2nd option last year. Now we don't have him.

Damp played big minutes last year. Now we don't have him. Haywood and Stevenson hardly had any time to gel. Now they had over a year.

We didn't have Peja.
We don't have Roddy now.

Totally different. Give it up. You already got destroyed.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk played 44 mins in game1, 39 mins in game2, 40 mins in game3.

And the Spurs were up 2-1. Your point?

I'm supposed to be impressed by the Spurs beating the Mavs in 2 of the next 3 games without Dirk? And I can't quite remember, but I want to say Dirk didn't play the last 6 minutes of game 3. Can't remember though.

LOL

[SinJackal]

Actually, Dirk is getting props because this team doesn't have another all nba teammate. Only Duncan/Hakeem/Jordan have done that in the last 20 plus years. And really Jordan doesn't count because Pippen was definitely an elite player in 91.

Really only Hakeem and Duncan have done it in the last 30 years. That would be winning a title without and elite 2nd option. Dirk would join them if he wins it this year.

And furthermore, the competition he's faced is significantly better than what Duncan faced.

No it isn't. And I'm positive you didn't even read my whole post. You skimmed it and replied to the end bits. You're not even replying to 80% of it.

Dirk has Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, Jason Terry, Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler, and other good players. Don't act like his team sucks or some shit. The Mavericks are full of proven players. All of which have come through in the playoffs this year.

The reason Duncan and Hakeem's runs are different are because they did not have proven players on their team. Look at Duncan's '03 run for example. Aside from DRob, who was playing his last season, his team was full of players who were playing in their 1st-3rd seasons. The Spurs were full of unproven players and rookies, and Duncan carried them to the Finals and to a title, going through:

The Suns, who had Amar'e, Stephon Marburry, Penny Hardaway, Shawn Marion, and Joe Johnson.

The defending champion 3pt Shaq/Kobe Lakers.

Dirk's Mavericks back when he even had Steve Nash and a good Michael Finley, and failed to win with.

Then beat Jason Kidd's Nets in the Finals, who regardless of any criticism, won the eastern conference that season.

Dirk's competition was significantly better though? :roll: gtfo. The Thunder didn't belong in the WCF and it showed. Shaq's Lakers were better than Kobe's Lakers. The Blazers were decent, but not as good as any of the teams Duncan faced besides maybe the first round Suns, but not by much. The only competition the Mavs are facing that's any better are the Heat vs Nets. Don't act like Dirk's run has been tougher than Duncan's. It absolutely hasn't been. Especially considering Dirk's team is much better than Duncan's was.

Dirk's even only lost 3 games leading up to the Finals, through this "great competition". And two of those three were in the first round. And the Lakers were a joke imo going into the playoffs, and had no chance of making the Finals, as I'd been saying all year. Only those that got brainwashed by the media or were afraid of being trolled on here for saying it said otherwise.

[DMAVS41]

No it isn't. And I'm positive you didn't even read my whole post. You skimmed it and replied to the end bits. You're not even replying to 80% of it.

Dirk has Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, Jason Terry, Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler, and other good players. Don't act like his team sucks or some shit. The Mavericks are full of proven players. All of which have come through in the playoffs this year.

The reason Duncan and Hakeem's runs are different are because they did not have proven players on their team. Look at Duncan's '03 run for example. Aside from DRob, who was playing his last season, his team was full of players who were playing in their 1st-3rd seasons. The Spurs were full of unproven players and rookies, and Duncan carried them to the Finals and to a title, going through:

The Suns, who had Amar'e, Stephon Marburry, Penny Hardaway, Shawn Marion, and Joe Johnson.

The defending champion 3pt Shaq/Kobe Lakers.

Dirk's Mavericks back when he even had Steve Nash and a good Michael Finley, and failed to win with.

Then beat Jason Kidd's Nets in the Finals, who regardless of any criticism, won the eastern conference that season.

Dirk's competition was significantly better though? :roll: gtfo. The Thunder didn't belong in the WCF and it showed. Shaq's Lakers were better than Kobe's Lakers. The Blazers were decent, but not as good as any of the teams Duncan faced besides maybe the first round Suns, but not by much. The only competition the Mavs are facing that's any better are the Heat vs Nets. Don't act like Dirk's run has been tougher than Duncan's. It absolutely hasn't been. Especially considering Dirk's team is much better than Duncan's was.

Dirk's even only lost 3 games leading up to the Finals, through this "great competition". And two of those three were in the first round. And the Lakers were a joke imo going into the playoffs, and had no chance of making the Finals, as I'd been saying all year. Only those that got brainwashed by the media or were afraid of being trolled on here for saying it said otherwise.


1. Proven players or not, Duncan got very similar production from his supporting cast. In fact, when you adjust for pace and factor in the defense of guys like manu and bowen. They become very similar in overall impact.

2. The Mavs have played much better competition. Its actually not even remotely close. Duncan beat a joke Suns team, a very good Lakers team, the Mavs without Dirk for crunch time of game 3 and the remainder of the series, and then a sorry Nets team.

Holy shit.

Its not even comparable. Blazers, Lakers, Thunder, and then the Heat. Not even comparable at all.

Mavs went 12-3 in the West. Spurs went 12-6. Yea....sorry. That matters.


I can't believe people actually think Duncan faced tougher teams. Holy shit. And you people call me a homer. That is a ****ing joke.

[SinJackal]

So?

What does that have to do with the 2011 run.

I might as well bring up Dirk beating Duncan in a game 7 in 2006 as if it means something.

Nobody is putting Dirk in Duncan's class as a player.

But this playoff run would absolutely be on the same level if the Mavs go on to beat the Heat.

Duncan's run consisted of him putting up great numbers against scrub teams. Give me a ****ing break man. 49 win Nets? Beating the Mavs without Dirk? LOL

Please don't compare that with the teams the Mavs have had to face.

Nobody said it had anything to do with Dirk's 2011 run. It was Duncan's 2003 run, which you are comparing Dirk's 2011 with. Since you are trying to put Dirk into the discussion with Duncan's 2003 season, his 2003 season is going to be talked about. And it was the season Duncan made Dirk his bitch, sent Shaq and Kobe's 3peat champion selves out crying, took out a talented Suns team, then Duncan dominated the Nets with one of the best Finals performances of all time. Duncan's entire playoff performance was one of the best of all time.

Don't act like that has nothing to do with the discussion. It has everything to do with it.

And btw, I see you're still ignoring the staistical comparison I made between Dirk and Duncan/Hakeem's runs. Dirk's is vastly inferior. But you won't even so much as respond to it.


Scrub teams? Lmao. . .look who the Suns had. They beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. They beat Dirk's Mavs who were stacked, and Dirk played the first 3 games going down 1-2 after getting completely SMOKED in two straight games by Duncan. Dirk was getting worse and worse as the series went on, while Duncan was getting better and better. Spurs had ALL the momentum even before Dirk tweaked his ankle. The Mavs were doomed, and you know it if you watched that series. The ankle tweak was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

And for whatever you have to say about the Nets, they won the east, and were the best eastern conference team that year. Scrubs? Gtfo. Shaq/Kobe Lakers >>>>> Kobe Lakers. Dirk's Mavs >>>>>>> This year's Thunder EASILY. 2003 Suns >/< 2011 Blazers. Only tougher competition Dirk has had is the Heat in the Finals as opposed to the Nets. Gtfo calling the other teams scrubs. The Mavs only lost 3 games before the Finals this year. That = shitty competition.

[DMAVS41]

Nobody said it had anything to do with Dirk's 2011 run. It was Duncan's 2003 run, which you are comparing Dirk's 2011 with. Since you are trying to put Dirk into the discussion with Duncan's 2003 season, his 2003 season is going to be talked about. And it was the season Duncan made Dirk his bitch, sent Shaq and Kobe's 3peat champion selves out crying, took out a talented Suns team, then Duncan dominated the Nets with one of the best Finals performances of all time. Duncan's entire playoff performance was one of the best of all time.

Don't act like that has nothing to do with the discussion. It has everything to do with it.

And btw, I see you're still ignoring the staistical comparison I made between Dirk and Duncan/Hakeem's runs. Dirk's is vastly inferior. But you won't even so much as respond to it.


Scrub teams? Lmao. . .look who the Suns had. They beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. They beat Dirk's Mavs who were stacked, and Dirk played the first 3 games going down 1-2 after getting completely SMOKED in two straight games by Duncan. Dirk was getting worse and worse as the series went on, while Duncan was getting better and better. Spurs had ALL the momentum even before Dirk tweaked his ankle. The Mavs were doomed, and you know it if you watched that series. The ankle tweak was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

And for whatever you have to say about the Nets, they won the east, and were the best eastern conference team that year. Scrubs? Gtfo. Shaq/Kobe Lakers >>>>> Kobe Lakers. Dirk's Mavs >>>>>>> This year's Thunder EASILY. 2003 Suns >/< 2011 Blazers. Only tougher competition Dirk has had is the Heat in the Finals as opposed to the Nets. Gtfo calling the other teams scrubs. The Mavs only lost 3 games before the Finals this year. That = shitty competition.


I could not disagree more.

Duncan made Dirk his *****? You mean in two games. One of which Dirk got hurt before crunch time?

I guess Dirk's 38 and 15 in game 1 of that series means nothing.

Again, nobody is saying Dirk is a better player. Still not sure why you can't understand that.

Sorry, Duncan got extremely lucky in 03. He beat one quality team. The rest of the teams were jokes. Suns in first round, Mavs without Dirk, and Nets.

LOL

You want to compare that to the Blazers, Lakers, Thunder, and then potentially the Heat. Not even comparable.

Those teams were about half as good overall as the teams the Mavs beat.

Stats wise?

Duncan's PER is about 8% better than Dirk's. Exactly how I feel. Duncan played about 8% better on his run compared to Dirk so far.

Factor in competition and Dirk's insane clutch play. It becomes very close for me and I actually favor Dirk.

[SinJackal]

1. Proven players or not, Duncan got very similar production from his supporting cast. In fact, when you adjust for pace and factor in the defense of guys like manu and bowen. They become very similar in overall impact.

2. The Mavs have played much better competition. Its actually not even remotely close. Duncan beat a joke Suns team, a very good Lakers team, the Mavs without Dirk for crunch time of game 3 and the remainder of the series, and then a sorry Nets team.

Holy shit.

Its not even comparable. Blazers, Lakers, Thunder, and then the Heat. Not even comparable at all.

Mavs went 12-3 in the West. Spurs went 12-6. Yea....sorry. That matters.


I can't believe people actually think Duncan faced tougher teams. Holy shit. And you people call me a homer. That is a ****ing joke.

Ahahahahaha! Without Dirk for crunch time?????? Dirk tweaked his ankle at damn near the END of a game they were getting BLOWN OUT in. That game was OVER already. And as I already said, Dirk was playing worse and worse, getting locked down by Duncan more and more as that series went on. Duncan was getting better and better.

Spurs had all the momentum, that series was over with or without Dirk.


Blazers: Overrated going into the playoffs. Only managed to win 2 games that series because refs game them one. And yes, you know it's true.

Lakers: Worse than 3peat champ Shaq/Kobe Lakers easily. Not even debatable. They got swept by an underrated Mavs team everyone said would get owned (besides me), proving they were the stumbling bumbling team I said they were all season. Again, note: I picked the Mavs to beat LA in round 2 for MONTHS. . .and I'm positive you remember this. LA's only chance to win that series was for Stern to have the refs help them.

Thunder: Extremely overrated, far worse than 2003 Mavs. Did not even belong in the WCF. They mentally choked repeatedly, and looked bad on both ends of the floor during crunch time throughout the playoffs.

Heat: Better than Nets, of course, but the Nets were in the Finals for their 2nd straight year, so don't pretend like they were a shitty team. Best eastern conference team for 2 years in a row.

Dirk's faced 3 overrated teams, and is now facing the one good team he's going to have to beat. Duncan beat 3 good teams, and 1 talented but raw Suns team in round 1.

[DMAVS41]

Ahahahahaha! Without Dirk for crunch time?????? Dirk tweaked his ankle at damn near the END of a game they were getting BLOWN OUT in. That game was OVER already. And as I already said, Dirk was playing worse and worse, getting locked down by Duncan more and more as that series went on. Duncan was getting better and better.

Spurs had all the momentum, that series was over with or without Dirk.


Blazers: Overrated going into the playoffs. Only managed to win 2 games that series because refs game them one. And yes, you know it's true.

Lakers: Worse than 3peat champ Shaq/Kobe Lakers easily. Not even debatable. They got swept by an underrated Mavs team everyone said would get owned (besides me), proving they were the stumbling bumbling team I said they were all season. Again, note: I picked the Mavs to beat LA in round 2 for MONTHS. . .and I'm positive you remember this. LA's only chance to win that series was for Stern to have the refs help them.

Thunder: Extremely overrated, far worse than 2003 Mavs. Did not even belong in the WCF. They mentally choked repeatedly, and looked bad on both ends of the floor during crunch time throughout the playoffs.

Heat: Better than Nets, of course, but the Nets were in the Finals for their 2nd straight year, so don't pretend like they were a shitty team. Best eastern conference team for 2 years in a row.

Dirk's faced 3 overrated teams, and is now facing the one good team he's going to have to beat. Duncan beat 3 good teams, and 1 talented but raw Suns team in round 1.

You want to be taken seriously if you are calling a series over at 2-1 with the Mavs already proving they can win in SA? Really? Wow.

Now everyone is over-rated. Lakers suck. Thunder suck. Blazers suck. Nets were great.

Listen to yourself man. I'm all for having a debate, but you can't even admit ****ing facts.

And the Mavs didn't just beat the Lakers. They ****ing swept them. They didn't just beat the Thunder. They won in 5.

This is about a playoff run. How you win matters. Beating each team in 6 just doesn't mean the same thing as the dominant run the Mavs just went on.

Also, I thought Dirk got hurt with like 7 or 8 minutes to go in game 3 against the Spurs. I know the Spurs were up, but lets not act like its was some insurmountable lead.

I can't recall for sure though.

[SinJackal]

I could not disagree more.

Duncan made Dirk his *****? You mean in two games. One of which Dirk got hurt before crunch time?

I guess Dirk's 38 and 15 in game 1 of that series means nothing.

Again, nobody is saying Dirk is a better player. Still not sure why you can't understand that.

Sorry, Duncan got extremely lucky in 03. He beat one quality team. The rest of the teams were jokes. Suns in first round, Mavs without Dirk, and Nets.

LOL

You want to compare that to the Blazers, Lakers, Thunder, and then potentially the Heat. Not even comparable.

Those teams were about half as good overall as the teams the Mavs beat.

Stats wise?

Duncan's PER is about 8% better than Dirk's. Exactly how I feel. Duncan played about 8% better on his run compared to Dirk so far.

Factor in competition and Dirk's insane clutch play. It becomes very close for me and I actually favor Dirk.


Your opinion on the quality of the teams during each of the runs in question is obviously vastly warped by your homerism, and it's now apparent you didn't even watch the playoffs in 2003. So I am not going to continue to debate it with you. You're just going to yammer off the same things, and "disagree" without reviewing the facts, so there's no point in speaking to you about it anymore.

As for this year, I've spoken about all of these teams all year long, in terms of how I felt my own teams would beat them. I had no respect for the Thunder, Blazers, or even Lakers the entire season. I felt they were overrated and would get steamrolled the first time they faced a good team in the playoffs. And all 3 of them did. They were overrated teams who were hyped up by the media. The 3 most hyped teams going into the playoffs out west. All 3 were vastly overrated, and had no chance of getting to the Finals, much less winning it.



And yes, Dirk's 38/15 means nothing because he got locked down in games 2 and 3, while Duncan averaged 35/18/6, with 3 3.5 blocks on 62% shooting while Dirk was playing. Dirk's best game, his only good game, was worse than what Duncan AVERAGED against Dirk. So yeah, it didn't matter, since Dirk did it once, then sucked 2 games, while Duncan did better all 3 games.


Once again, Dirk is averaging 28/8/3, on 51%, with 0.5 BPG.

Duncan averaged 25/15/5, on 53% and 3.3 BPG.

Duncan averaged only 3 less PPG, and nearly double the rebounds, double the assists, more FG%, and 6x more BPG, while altering a lot more shots down low, impacting the game heavily on both ends of the floor.

Duncan's stats blow Dirk's away. Dirk, who can only impact the game offensively, and is an average defensive impact even now, the season he's being heralded as an improved defensive player by Mavs fans. He still isn't doing much defensively.

Once you stop jizzing over Dirk's 3 more PPG, and manage to take in the fact that Duncan was twice the rebounder, twice the passer, six times the shot blocker, and at least 3-4 times the defensive impact overall, it will dawn on you why Dirk's run here is not close to Duncan's 2003 run.

Dirk is having an excellent offensive playoffs. Duncan had a great offensive and defensive playoffs. He did it every way possible. Dirk is doing it on one end.

[DMAVS41]

Your opinion on the quality of the teams during each of the runs in question is obviously vastly warped by your homerism, and it's now apparent you didn't even watch the playoffs in 2003. So I am not going to continue to debate it with you. You're just going to yammer off the same things, and "disagree" without reviewing the facts, so there's no point in speaking to you about it anymore.

As for this year, I've spoken about all of these teams all year long, in terms of how I felt my own teams would beat them. I had no respect for the Thunder, Blazers, or even Lakers the entire season. I felt they were overrated and would get steamrolled the first time they faced a good team in the playoffs. And all 3 of them did. They were overrated teams who were hyped up by the media. The 3 most hyped teams going into the playoffs out west. All 3 were vastly overrated, and had no chance of getting to the Finals, much less winning it.



And yes, Dirk's 38/15 means nothing because he got locked down in games 2 and 3, while Duncan averaged 35/18/6, with 3 3.5 blocks on 62% shooting while Dirk was playing. Dirk's best game, his only good game, was worse than what Duncan AVERAGED against Dirk. So yeah, it didn't matter, since Dirk did it once, then sucked 2 games, while Duncan did better all 3 games.


Once again, Dirk is averaging 28/8/3, on 51%, with 0.5 BPG.

Duncan averaged 25/15/5, on 53% and 3.3 BPG.

Duncan averaged only 3 less PPG, and nearly double the rebounds, double the assists, more FG%, and 6x more BPG, while altering a lot more shots down low, impacting the game heavily on both ends of the floor.

Duncan's stats blow Dirk's away. Dirk, who can only impact the game offensively, and is an average defensive impact even now, the season he's being heralded as an improved defensive player by Mavs fans. He still isn't doing much defensively.

Once you stop jizzing over Dirk's 3 more PPG, and manage to take in the fact that Duncan was twice the rebounder, twice the passer, six times the shot blocker, and at least 3-4 times the defensive impact overall, it will dawn on you why Dirk's run here is not close to Duncan's 2003 run.

Dirk is having an excellent offensive playoffs. Duncan had a great offensive and defensive playoffs. He did it every way possible. Dirk is doing it on one end.

I feel the exact same way about you. Its clear you are warped by being a homer if you think the competition both faced are remotely similar.

I can't believe you actually think Duncan faced better teams. That is laughable to me.

And again.

Duncan's PER 28
Dirk's PER 26

Exactly how I feel. Duncan was 8 to 10 percent better as a player. That is not what this is solely about though. Many other things go into a great playoff run.

How you win. Who you beat.....etc.

Dirk's team played better competition to get to the finals and went 12-3. That matters.

Just like Dirk's insane clutch play matters. Its not just 3 more ppg. Its a lot different than that and you know it.

Could not disagree more. No point in debating because we are too far apart.

I find the notion that Duncan faced better teams laughable. Sorry.

[SinJackal]

You want to be taken seriously if you are calling a series over at 2-1 with the Mavs already proving they can win in SA? Really? Wow.

Now everyone is over-rated. Lakers suck. Thunder suck. Blazers suck. Nets were great.

Listen to yourself man. I'm all for having a debate, but you can't even admit ****ing facts.

And the Mavs didn't just beat the Lakers. They ****ing swept them. They didn't just beat the Thunder. They won in 5.

This is about a playoff run. How you win matters. Beating each team in 6 just doesn't mean the same thing as the dominant run the Mavs just went on.

Also, I thought Dirk got hurt with like 7 or 8 minutes to go in game 3 against the Spurs. I know the Spurs were up, but lets not act like its was some insurmountable lead.

I can't recall for sure though.

The Lakers did suck. They got pushed to 6 games by a weak Hornets team, who was arguably the 2nd or 3rd worst team in the entire playoffs, then they got swept by a team the media gave no chance to. LA was favored by the media to make the Finals despite all their bumbling. If that is not overrated, then what is? Thunder were overrated. They beat the 5 and 8 seeds to get to the WCF, and struggled to do so. Then got smashed in the WCF, choking away huge leads multiple times, proving they didn't belong there. Overrated. Blazers were overrated too. . .people were picking them to beat the Mavs. Nearly half the ESPN experts had them picked over the Mavs. They basically won one game, and got one gifted due to poor officiating.

All 3 were overrated. The only one that isn't is the Heat.


I'm also laughing at the arguments you're using now. You're basically arguing that the Mavs are a great team, and that their competition sucks. Yet, you're claiming that that means the opposite of what arguments you're actually using. You're saying that means the competiton was great and that Dirk is carrying a bad mavs team, and yet, the facts all say otherwise. :roll:

Also, lmao@Dirk getting hurt with 8 minutes left in the game. Dirk played 40 minutes that game. He was averaging like 42 minutes a game. So unless you think Dirk was playing 48 minutes a game, no. I watched the game, there was about 2 1/2 minutes left, and SA was already up by like about 10 points. The Mavs got blown out by 13.

Also, the ONE game the Mavs did win with Dirk, was a flukey 3 point win with the most ridiculous officiating in a playoff game that I've EVER seen. There were literally 98 FTAs in the game. The Mavs got FIFTY FTAs, and only missed ONE. The most puke inducing ref-dominated game in NBA history, with a flukey 49/50 team FTAs NBA record number of team FT% on such a large volume of FTs in NBA history.

That shit wasn't gonna happen 4 times, and it didn't happen again. Spurs had all the momentum, having blown the Mavs out twice after that ref-dominated game 1. The Mavs actually played better without Dirk than with, playing much better defense in all 3 games without Dirk on the floor.

You playing revisionist history now too? :roll: Clearly did not watch the 2003 playoffs, and you're acting like an expert on it.

[DMAVS41]

The Lakers did suck. They got pushed to 6 games by a weak Hornets team, who was arguably the 2nd or 3rd worst team in the entire playoffs, then they got swept by a team the media gave no chance to. LA was favored by the media to make the Finals despite all their bumbling. If that is not overrated, then what is? Thunder were overrated. They beat the 5 and 8 seeds to get to the WCF, and struggled to do so. Then got smashed in the WCF, choking away huge leads multiple times, proving they didn't belong there. Overrated. Blazers were overrated too. . .people were picking them to beat the Mavs. Nearly half the ESPN experts had them picked over the Mavs. They basically won one game, and got one gifted due to poor officiating.

All 3 were overrated. The only one that isn't is the Heat.


I'm also laughing at the arguments you're using now. You're basically arguing that the Mavs are a great team, and that their competition sucks. Yet, you're claiming that that means the opposite of what arguments you're actually using. You're saying that means the competiton was great and that Dirk is carrying a bad mavs team, and yet, the facts all say otherwise. :roll:

Also, lmao@Dirk getting hurt with 8 minutes left in the game. Dirk played 40 minutes that game. He was averaging like 42 minutes a game. So unless you think Dirk was playing 48 minutes a game, no. I watched the game, there was about 2 1/2 minutes left, and SA was already up by like about 10 points. The Mavs got blown out by 13.

Also, the ONE game the Mavs did win with Dirk, was a flukey 3 point win with the most ridiculous officiating in a playoff game that I've EVER seen. There were literally 98 FTAs in the game. The Mavs got FIFTY FTAs, and only missed ONE. The most puke inducing ref-dominated game in NBA history, with a flukey 49/50 team FTAs NBA record number of team FT% on such a large volume of FTs in NBA history.

That shit wasn't gonna happen 4 times, and it didn't happen again. Spurs had all the momentum, having blown the Mavs out twice after that ref-dominated game 1. The Mavs actually played better without Dirk than with, playing much better defense in all 3 games without Dirk on the floor.

You playing revisionist history now too? :roll: Clearly did not watch the 2003 playoffs, and you're acting like an expert on it.

I'm saying the exact opposite actually. LOL

Look.

There is no point in debating if you can't admit that the Blazers, Lakers, Thunder, and Heat is better competition.

I really don't know what else to say.

Revisionist history?

Suns, Lakers, Mavs without Dirk, and Nets?????????

I just don't even know where to begin.

And again, the Spurs supporting cast was very similar to the Mavs. Down to the player. The big difference is Kidd. That gives Dirk a slightly better supporting cast. That is all it is though....A slight edge.

LOL at the idea that the Lakers did suck.

Thats like me saying that the Warriors beating the Mavs in 07 wasn't a big upset. I actually thought the Warriors would either beat us or it would go 7. I guess that means it wasn't an upset.


I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong. There is just no point in debating when we are this far off. I honestly think the Mavs this year have faced competition nearly twice as good as what the Spurs faced in 03.

And you expect to be taken seriously trying to say that the 03 Mavs were better without Dirk. All I know is that if that series had gone 7...which I think it would have. I'll bet my money on Dirk...not Duncan. Or do I need to bring up 06???????? By the way, Dirk had two game 7's in 03 of over 30 and 10...both wins of course. Dirk still is yet to lose a game 7 (5-0)

Sorry dude. Can't take you seriously after that.

I'll be willing to debate if you concede two things:

1. Mavs played much better competition this year
2. Mavs were much better with Dirk than without him in 03

Don't both responding if you won't concede those two things.

[SinJackal]

I feel the exact same way about you. Its clear you are warped by being a homer if you think the competition both faced are remotely similar.

I can't believe you actually think Duncan faced better teams. That is laughable to me.

And again.

Duncan's PER 28
Dirk's PER 26

Exactly how I feel. Duncan was 8 to 10 percent better as a player. That is not what this is solely about though. Many other things go into a great playoff run.

How you win. Who you beat.....etc.

Dirk's team played better competition to get to the finals and went 12-3. That matters.

Just like Dirk's insane clutch play matters. Its not just 3 more ppg. Its a lot different than that and you know it.

Could not disagree more. No point in debating because we are too far apart.

I find the notion that Duncan faced better teams laughable. Sorry.

So the only stat you're going to use is PER? :roll: Let's take a look at their stats, and see if we can't figure out why you're ignoring the other ones!

Duncan's rebounding: 15.4
Dirk's Rebounding: 7.8

Duncan was literally 0.2 boards away from being TWICE the rebounder. Or 97.4% better, if you will.

Duncan's assists: 5.3
Dirk's assists: 2.8

Duncan was 0.3 assists away from being TWICE as good. Or 89.3% better, if you will.

Duncan's blocks: 3.3
Dirk's blocks: 0.6

Duncan was 5.5x the shot blocker that Dirk has been. 450% better shot blocker

Duncan's averaged more steals too, but not by much. 0.625 vs 0.47, or 33% better.

Then the one category Dirk is better in:

Dirk's points: 28.1 (seems to be dropping the last 3 games)
Duncan's points: 24.7

Dirk: Scores 13% more points.

Duncan also shot .529% to Dirk's .505%, so he was more consistent when he put up shots, or just as consistent if you use eFG%, in which they are both 53%.

Duncan also turned the ball over less.


Duncan has literally been better in every category but volume scoring, and he was only marginally worse in that category. While much, much better in all of the other categories. Especially shot blocking, passing, rebounding, and defense.


But hey, you wanna use advanced stats like PER, instead of simply looking at how they dominated. Let's look at offensive and defensive win shares then, let's see who was more important.

Dirk: 2.5 OWS. 0.6 DWS (:roll: )

Duncan: 3.3 OWS. 2.7 DWS


Duncan: More offensive win shares, and more than 4x the defensive win shares.

How about defensive rating? (lower the better)

Duncan: 92
Dirk: 106 :roll:


Duncan annhilates Dirk in defense, and apparently has more win shares anyway, despite Dirk's superior volume scoring. But hey, Dirk's offense is what's keeping him afloat, let's compare their offensive ratings (higher the better)

Dirk: 118
Duncan: 116

:roll: Duncan: Barely lower in offense, almost not even noticeable. Dirk: Far worse in defense.


But hey, their PER is 2.5 points apart! At least there's one stat you can use as a security blanket. Oh wait, Duncan's PER is the one that's 2.5 better. :roll: And as we know, PER favors players who play less minutes per game. Duncan played 42.5 minutes a game, Dirk plays 39. So Duncan not only played significantly better than Dirk, but he did so over longer periods of time too.


The stats do not favor Dirk at all. You'd best not use them as part of your argument.

[DMAVS41]

So the only stat you're going to use is PER? :roll: Let's take a look at their stats, and see if we can't figure out why you're ignoring the other ones!

Duncan's rebounding: 15.4
Dirk's Rebounding: 7.8

Duncan was literally 0.2 boards away from being TWICE the rebounder. Or 97.4% better, if you will.

Duncan's assists: 5.3
Dirk's assists: 2.8

Duncan was 0.3 assists away from being TWICE as good. Or 89.3% better, if you will.

Duncan's blocks: 3.3
Dirk's blocks: 0.6

Duncan was 5.5x the shot blocker that Dirk has been. 450% better shot blocker

Duncan's averaged more steals too, but not by much. 0.625 vs 0.47, or 33% better.

Then the one category Dirk is better in:

Dirk's points: 28.1 (seems to be dropping the last 3 games)
Duncan's points: 24.7

Dirk: Scores 13% more points.

Duncan also shot .529% to Dirk's .505%, so he was more consistent when he put up shots, or just as consistent if you use eFG%, in which they are both 53%.

Duncan also turned the ball over less.


Duncan has literally been better in every category but volume scoring, and he was only marginally worse in that category. While much, much better in all of the other categories. Especially shot blocking, passing, rebounding, and defense.


But hey, you wanna use advanced stats like PER, instead of simply looking at how they dominated. Let's look at offensive and defensive win shares then, let's see who was more important.

Dirk: 2.5 OWS. 0.6 DWS (:roll: )

Duncan: 3.3 OWS. 2.7 DWS


Duncan: More offensive win shares, and more than 4x the defensive win shares.

How about defensive rating? (lower the better)

Duncan: 92
Dirk: 106 :roll:


Duncan annhilates Dirk in defense, and apparently has more win shares anyway, despite Dirk's superior volume scoring. But hey, Dirk's offense is what's keeping him afloat, let's compare their offensive ratings (higher the better)

Dirk: 118
Duncan: 116

:roll: Duncan: Barely lower in offense, almost not even noticeable. Dirk: Far worse in defense.


But hey, their PER is 2.5 points apart! At least there's one stat you can use as a security blanket. Oh wait, Duncan's PER is the one that's 2.5 better. :roll: And as we know, PER favors players who play less minutes per game. Duncan played 42.5 minutes a game, Dirk plays 39. So Duncan not only played significantly better than Dirk, but he did so over longer periods of time too.


The stats do not favor Dirk at all. You'd best not use them as part of your argument.

I didn't use stats. In fact, I already said Duncan was 8 to 10 percent better as a player overall.

I don't know what more you want me to say?

You think Duncan was 50% better or something?

It just gets pointless at some point when we are arguing two completely different things.

And its even more pointless when you are unwilling to admit that the Mavs beating the Blazers, Lakers, Thunder, and then Heat would not be much better competition.

Like I said in my last post.

If you aren't willing to concede:

1. Mavs have played much better teams
2. Mavs were better with Dirk than without him in 03

Don't bother responding. This is my last post unless you are willing to concede both of those.

No point in debating if you we are this far apart.

And again, you are debating something totally different than I am to begin with. This is not Dirk vs Duncan. Its about more impressive playoff run. Competition level, team record, and how you win matters in that discussion.

And I will say it again. Duncan was 8 to 10 percent better in 03 than Dirk is right now overall as a player. I've said that from post number 1.

But that is not the only part of the argument. Something you and others still seem unable to grasp.

So either concede the two points or the debate is over.

[Doranku]

:roll: @ the Mavs playing much better competition. Holy shit.

The LaMarcus Aldridge (LOL) led Blazers and a young Thunder team led by Westbrick's chucking.. great teams.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: @ the Mavs playing much better competition. Holy shit.

The LaMarcus Aldridge (LOL) led Blazers and a young Thunder team led by Westbrick's chucking.. great teams.

LOL...Love how you forget the Heat and Lakers.

LOL at the Suns led by Marbury (LOL), Mavs without Dirk, and the Nets. Couldn't even win 50 in the EAST. Has to be one of the worst finals teams ever.

[SCdac]

Hollinger has Duncan's Game 1 of the 03 Finals as one of the best single game performances in the Finals ever... Seriously, you Dirk-Homers are forgetting how amazing Duncan was in that playoff run.

1. Jordan, 97 Finals, Game 1

2. Magic, '80 Finals, Game 6

3. Worthy, '88 Finals, Game 7

4. Jordan, 98 Finals, Game 6

5. Malone, '98 Finals, Game 5

6. Duncan, '03 Finals, Game 1


This is perfect: The top-rated Duncan game is one that absolutely nobody remembers. However, Duncan's Game 1 annihilation of the Nets was not only his personal-best Finals performance, but the ridiculous 43.3 is the top Game Score for any Finals game of the post-merger era -- and he did it against an elite defensive team.

It would be hard to find a game that greater exemplifies Duncan's understated excellence. The 2003 Finals were low on sex appeal because San Antonio and New Jersey both were small-market teams, but it was a gritty series that required Duncan's best.

In the opener, he more than delivered.

Going up against two of the better defensive centers of the decade in Jason Collins and Dikembe Mutombo, Duncan ripped off 32 points, 20 rebounds, seven blocks, six assists and three steals. He even shot 10-for-14 from the free throw line and he had only one turnover.

Duncan broke open a tie game at the half by scoring 24 of his 32 points after the break, and was only two steals away from the only "five-by-five" in Finals history.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=BestFinalsGame-Individual-6

[magnax1]

Dirk is no where near Duncan and Hakeem

[DMAVS41]

Hollinger has Duncan's Game 1 of the 03 Finals as one of the best single game performances in the Finals ever... Seriously, you Dirk-Homers are forgetting how amazing Duncan was in that playoff run.

1. Jordan, 97 Finals, Game 1

2. Magic, '80 Finals, Game 6

3. Worthy, '88 Finals, Game 7

4. Jordan, 98 Finals, Game 6

5. Malone, '98 Finals, Game 5

6. Duncan, '03 Finals, Game 1



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=BestFinalsGame-Individual-6


You still can't comprehend that there is more to it than Dirk vs Duncan.

But anyway, I'll counter with Dirk's 46.5 game score against a better team.

Good effort though.

[Nobler]

Dirk is no where near Duncan and Hakeem

/thread

[chazzy]

The Nets were the best defensive team in the league (in a superior defensive era), so Duncan's production against them shouldn't be written off as "oh it was a bad team."

[DMAVS41]

The Nets were the best defensive team in the league (in a superior defensive era), so Duncan's production against them shouldn't be written off as "oh it was a bad team."

Nobody is writing anything off that Duncan did. He just did it against worse teams.

Not hard. The East was a joke in 03. Only one 50 win team....and it wasn't even the Nets.

[SCdac]

You still can't comprehend that there is more to it than Dirk vs Duncan.

But anyway, I'll counter with Dirk's 46.5 game score against a better team.

Good effort though.

You still can't comprehend that Duncan was on another level as a player in that playoff run...

Seriously, he blocked more shots in the first 3 games of the playoffs than Dirk has in the entire run to the Finals.

But I guess, I shouldn't expect a Dirk Nowitzki fan to "know" anything about defense or what it does for a team.

Hollinger also has it as the #3 greatest Finals performance of all time

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-3


The single most underrated Finals performance of all time, hands down, belongs to Duncan in 2003.

Relatively few viewers saw it because of the Spurs-Nets pairing, and because of the general consensus that the East was something of a minor league. But Duncan was unbelievable.

Despite going up against two top-notch defensive players in Kenyon Martin and Dikembe Mutombo, and despite lacking a superstar teammate to deflect attention (Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were just getting their feet wet, while David Robinson was on his way out), Duncan completely dominated. His averages of 24.2 points, 17.0 boards and 5.3 assists were impressive enough, but what really sealed the deal was his defense.

Duncan averaged 5.3 blocks per game for the series, the most of any player since the merger, and was at his best in the clinching Game 6 as San Antonio rallied from an eight-point fourth-quarter deficit. He fell two blocks shy of a quadruple-double and forced the Nets' Martin into a 3-for-23 disaster from the floor. Overall, his 32.0 PER for the series is the second-best since the merger.

[DMAVS41]

You still can't comprehend that Duncan was on another level as a player in that playoff run...

Seriously, he blocked more shots in the first 3 games of the playoffs than Dirk has in the entire run to the Finals.

But I guess, I shouldn't expect a Dirk Nowitzki fan to "know" anything about defense or what it does for a team.

Hollinger also has it as the #3 greatest Finals performance of all time

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-3

Ok, I've repeatedly said Duncan was 8 to 10 percent better during the playoffs as a player. Exactly what the overall stats show.

Now, just tell me how you would quantify Duncan's overall impact compared to Dirk's.

50% better?
100% better?

What is your number?

[chazzy]

Nobody is writing anything off that Duncan did. He just did it against worse teams.

Not hard. The East was a joke in 03. Only one 50 win team....and it wasn't even the Nets.
They were worse because of their offense; his statistical production isn't diminished by the overall team strength of the Nets because they were actually the best defensive team. It takes away from the team accomplishment of beating that team in comparison to other Finals teams though.

[DMAVS41]

They were worse because of their offense; his statistical production isn't diminished by the overall team strength of the Nets because they were actually the best defensive team. It takes away from the team accomplishment of beating that team in comparison to other Finals teams though.

Exactly. That is exactly how I feel. Sorry for any confusion.

I just pointed out that Dirk has a better game score in this playoff run to counter the other guys point.

But that is not even what this debate is about. LOL

And for the record, I think Duncan's game was better than Dirk's. Just a flaw in game score in my opinion.

[SCdac]

Ok, I've repeatedly said Duncan was 8 to 10 percent better during the playoffs as a player. Exactly what the overall stats show.

Now, just tell me how you would quantify Duncan's overall impact compared to Dirk's.

50% better?
100% better?

What is your number?

I'd say it's at least 25% to 50% better... at least.

Again, in basketball there is offense and defense.

Duncan owned in both categories on the way to an absolutely amazing playoff run.

Dirk is a scorer and not much else. His passing has improved, but outside of that and hitting clutch shots down the stretch, he's not doing anything to put himself above Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

I'd say it's at least 25% to 50% better... at least.

Again, in basketball there is offense and defense.

Duncan owned in both categories on the way to an absolutely amazing playoff run.

Dirk is a scorer and not much else. His passing has improved, but outside of that and hitting clutch shots down the stretch, he's not doing anything to put himself above Duncan.

Ok.

I respect that. I just disagree. Hugely. 25 to 50 percent better is just way too much in my opinion.

I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong.

I just think that we are way too far apart to even have a reasonable discussion.

I love Duncan. Have him as my 6th best player of all time. However, there are many ways to make impacts on the game and I am totally against this offense vs offense and then defense vs defense way people seem to compare players now.

Nothing more I can really say. Hard to have a debate when both sides are so far apart.

[chazzy]

I think you're putting too much stock in qualifiers and subjective variables like supporting cast and competition strength, and not enough on their actual level of play. What makes this run comparable is their lack of a 2nd All NBA teammate and Dirk's clutch play. I just don't think whatever difference there is between their competition is enough to make up for Duncan's superior individual play. Couldn't you use this same type of qualifier argument to argue this playoff run over some of Jordan's as well?

[-playmaker-]

If the Mavs win the Finals...it will be nothing short of LEGENDARY


what he has done this post season is just unreal, it feels like there is some insane Dirk led comeback every other day that causes this website to explode...


why do we have to rank everything?...this is amazing, we should just leave it at that...

[Carbine]

Don't worry DMavs,

In seven to ten years when the proper reflection can be had on this Dirk run, it will get the same love that Duncan in '03 gets or Hakeem in '94.

We as people have this stupid thing where we don't appreciate what's happening right now, and tend to overrate what has happened in the past, or at the very least give it its proper due.

[DMAVS41]

I think you're putting too much stock in qualifiers and subjective variables like supporting cast and competition strength, and not enough on their actual level of play. What makes this run comparable is their lack of a 2nd All NBA teammate and Dirk's clutch play. I just don't think whatever difference there is between their competition is enough to make up for Duncan's superior individual play. Couldn't you use this same type of qualifier argument to argue this playoff run over some of Jordan's as well?

Well that is exactly what a playoff run is. Its about how a player plays, how his team performs based on expectations, the competition they face, and how they do it.

I mean, if going 12-3 against better teams with very similar help and then beating a much better team in the Finals doesn't mean anything then we are all just arguing two different things.

If its just player vs player and nothing is put into context about the playoff run.

Then I would favor Duncan by around 10%. As I have said from the beginning.

To me though, a playoff run means so much more than just that. Nobody was surprised the Spurs won it all in 03....let alone made the Finals.

People expected this Mavs team to lose in the first round or 2nd round for sure.

The idea of beating the Lebron/Wade Heat with Dirk playing the way he has counts a lot more than Duncan's Spurs beating the Mavs without Dirk and then the Nets.

I'm now confused on what the debate is actually about.

I don't know how you can possibly look at a "playoff run" and not factor in all the circumstances.

And just to be clear. This thread is assuming the Mavs win the title. Think about that for a second. This means that the Mavs would have beaten the Lebron/Wade Heat with Dirk likely being named finals MVP. I don't think you guys are understanding what that would actually mean historically.

[tpols]

The Nets were the best defensive team in the league (in a superior defensive era), so Duncan's production against them shouldn't be written off as "oh it was a bad team."
They had great perimeter defense mostly because of Jason Kidd, but they were TERRIBLE at guarding superstar post players. Check Shaq's numbers from the previous year when they swept the nets in the finals.. we had jason collins guarding these guys and the dude was just not that good of a defender.. way too slow. And Kmart couldn't hold his own against the bigger PFs and Cs.

And it is hilarious to compare Duncan's competition in 03 to Dirk's in 2011.

Look at it this way.. Duncan's teams were PREDICTED and FAVORED to beat the suns, mavs(especially after their main player goes down), and the nets. They were favorites for 75% of their playoff run.

The mavs on the other hand, were barely predicted to get past the blazers(many people thought they would lose to them), they were predicted to get CRUSHED by the lakers by every measurable standard, their series with the thunder was a wash, and they are currently pitted as the underdogs, obviously, to the heat by vegas odds.

Dirk's team this year was barely expected to get out of the first round, much less beat the lakers, make the finals, and beat the miami heat.:oldlol:

Duncan's teams, on the other hand, had already won a title and were perennial contenders every year.. no one was calling the mavs a contender coming into this year's playoffs.. no one.

[magnax1]

Don't worry DMavs,

In seven to ten years when the proper reflection can be had on this Dirk run, it will get the same love that Duncan in '03 gets or Hakeem in '94.

We as people have this stupid thing where we don't appreciate what's happening right now, and tend to overrate what has happened in the past, or at the very least give it its proper due.
I can't believe some people actually think this. Like what has Dirk done close to Duncan? There is one category Dirk is close in. Scoring, and that's still close, with Dirk at 28 ppg on 63 TS% and Duncan at 25 on 58 TS% (though that's oversimplifying it a bit) Duncan is a far better passer, better rebounder, better defender in every imaginable way. What has Dirk done that deserves this sort of thread? The only thing that's close is their team, and Dirk's is probably more talented, though he played against better teams so it sort of evens out. Either way, he's just not as good.

[DMAVS41]

They had great perimeter defense mostly because of Jason Kidd, but they were TERRIBLE at guarding superstar post players. Check Shaq's numbers from the previous year when they swept the nets in the finals.. we had jason collins guarding these guys and the dude was just not that good of a defender.. way too slow. And Kmart couldn't hold his own against the bigger PFs and Cs.

And it is hilarious to compare Duncan's competition in 03 to Dirk's in 2011.

Look at it this way.. Duncan's teams were PREDICTED and FAVORED to beat the suns, mavs(especially after their main player goes down), and the nets. They were favorites for 75% of their playoff run.

The mavs on the other hand, were barely predicted to get past the blazers(many people thought they would lose to them), they were predicted to get CRUSHED by the lakers by every measurable standard, their series with the thunder was a wash, and they are currently pitted as the underdogs, obviously, to the heat by vegas odds.

Dirk's team this year was barely expected to get out of the first round, much less beat the lakers, make the finals, and beat the miami heat.:oldlol:

Duncan's teams, on the other hand, had already won a title and were perennial contenders every year.. no one was calling the mavs a contender coming into this year's playoffs.. no one.

Great post.

Love agreeing with you for a change.

[SCdac]

Nobody predicted the Spurs to beat the Laker in 2003... It was not a given that they'd win.

the Lakers had handed their ass to them in the years prior

2001 - Spurs were swept by the Lakers
2002 - Spurs were nearly swept by the Laker, lost in 5 games

Pretending like ending the Lakers dynasty is some small feat is pretty dumb. They were the defending champions and had two of the best players of all time.

Duncan said at the time...


"We've been put down by these guys the last couple of years," Tim Duncan said after getting 37 points and 16 rebounds to lead the wipeout. "More than ending their reign, that felt a lot better -- ending their season and going on."

[tpols]

I can't believe some people actually think this. Like what has Dirk done close to Duncan? There is one category Dirk is close in. Scoring, and that's still close, with Dirk at 28 ppg on 63 TS% and Duncan at 25 on 58 TS% (though that's oversimplifying it a bit) Duncan is a far better passer, better rebounder, better defender in every imaginable way. What has Dirk done that deserves this sort of thread? The only thing that's close is their team, and Dirk's is probably more talented, though he played against better teams so it sort of evens out. Either way, he's just not as good.
Dude.. it's not about who was the overall better player.

It's about who had a more improbable title run.. Dirk has led this team so far against all odds WAY past expectations.. and he has put them on his back in many, many different games. His play has been nothing short of legendary game in and game out. That's what we are comparing.. who overcame the odds the most.

If this was just about statistical dominance and great play, how come shaq in any of his title years isn't being brought up? He was every bit as good as duncan was in 03 in 00, 01, or 02. How come we're not mentioning shaq in this list of legendary finals runs?

Because shaq's titles were EXPECTED. He didn't overcome any odds.. he just fullfilled what was prophesized for him. The reason Duncan's 03 title is held in such high regard is because of the obstacles he overcame while not having a legit second option.. just like the situation dirk is in right now.

Both of these guys have put their team on their back in the most critical parts of games and led their teams to victory against absolutely incredible odds. Thats what the point is.

And yes.. if dallas beats the heat, that would be legendary. The heat are better than ANY team the spurs faced in 03. Simply put, a mavs title this year would be one of the most improbable titles in the history of the game.

[DMAVS41]

Nobody predicted the Spurs to beat the Laker in 2003... It was not a given that they'd win.

the Lakers had handed their ass to them in the years prior

2001 - Spurs were swept by the Lakers
2002 - Spurs were nearly swept by the Laker, lost in 5 games

Pretending like ending the Lakers dynasty is some small feat is pretty dumb. They were the defending champions and had two of the best players of all time.

Duncan said at the time...

Not that it matters....because I do think the Spurs beating the Lakers was an upset.

But, more people picked the Spurs in 03 to beat the Lakers than the Mavs this year to beat the Lakers.

Spurs had homecourt. If you are going to off of "picking".....more people definitely had the Spurs than the Mavs in comparison.

[tpols]

Nobody predicted the Spurs to beat the Laker in 2003... It was not a given that they'd win.

The spurs were favorites in EVERY other series. Every single one.

The mavs, on the other hand, have been huge underdogs for two of their series, and were barely favored in their other two.

And then when you factor in Finals competition it becomes an even bigger joke.

[DMAVS41]

Dude.. it's not about who was the overall better player.

It's about who had a more improbable title run.. Dirk has led this team so far against all odds WAY past expectations.. and he has put them on his back in many, many different games. His play has been nothing short of legendary game in and game out. That's what we are comparing.. who overcame the odds the most.

If this was just about statistical dominance and great play, how come shaq in any of his title years isn't being brought up? He was every bit as good as duncan was in 03 in 00, 01, or 02. How come we're not mentioning shaq in this list of legendary finals runs?

Because shaq's titles were EXPECTED. He didn't overcome any odds.. he just fullfilled what was prophesized for him. The reason Duncan's 03 title is held in such high regard is because of the obstacles he overcame while not having a legit second option.. just like the situation dirk is in right now.

Both of these guys have put their team on their back in the most critical parts of games and led their teams to victory against absolutely incredible odds. Thats what the point is.

And yes.. if dallas beats the heat, that would be legendary. The heat are better than ANY team the spurs faced in 03. Simply put, a mavs title this year would be one of the most improbable titles in the history of the game.

Damn.

****ing :pimp:

I'm glad I'm on your side in this debate because I don't think I could challenge that post at all.

[tpols]

Damn.

****ing :pimp:

I'm glad I'm on your side in this debate because I don't think I could challenge that post at all.
In this case.. it's kind of ridiculous.. these duncan homers are taking offense to this thread and are turning it into a duncan versus dirk debate.. thats not what the title says.

The thread title is basically about improbable titles.. who overcame the most odds to win while playing legendary. This is just getting stupid.

[DMAVS41]

Just found the odds before the season in 2003 by the way.

Lakers were even money to win the title.

Spurs were 3.5 to 1.

Nets were 10 to 1.

[magnax1]

Dude.. it's not about who was the overall better player.

It's about who had a more improbable title run.. Dirk has led this team so far against all odds WAY past expectations.. and he has put them on his back in many, many different games. His play has been nothing short of legendary game in and game out. That's what we are comparing.. who overcame the odds the most.

If this was just about statistical dominance and great play, how come shaq in any of his title years isn't being brought up? He was every bit as good as duncan was in 03 in 00, 01, or 02. How come we're not mentioning shaq in this list of legendary finals runs?

Because shaq's titles were EXPECTED. He didn't overcome any odds.. he just fullfilled what was prophesized for him. The reason Duncan's 03 title is held in such high regard is because of the obstacles he overcame while not having a legit second option.. just like the situation dirk is in right now.

Both of these guys have put their team on their back in the most critical parts of games and led their teams to victory against absolutely incredible odds. Thats what the point is.

And yes.. if dallas beats the heat, that would be legendary. The heat are better than ANY team the spurs faced in 03. Simply put, a mavs title this year would be one of the most improbable titles in the history of the game.
Then I don't even see the point of this thread. That's nice that no one expected Dirk to win. That's nice that the Mavericks are playing so well, but it has nothing to do with how good Dirk is. So nobody should be comparing Dirk to Hakeem and Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

In this case.. it's kind of ridiculous.. these duncan homers are taking offense to this thread and are turning it into a duncan versus dirk debate.. thats not what the title says.

The thread title is basically about improbable titles.. who overcame the most odds to win. This is just getting stupid.

I've been trying to explain that to them.

I've repeatedly said that Duncan was a better player in 03.

That does not mean he had a better playoff run.

I just can't believe people don't realize what this would be if the Mavs beat the freaking Heat in the finals.

[SCdac]

The spurs were favorites in EVERY other series. Every single one.

The mavs, on the other hand, have been huge underdogs for two of their series, and were barely favored in their other two.

And then when you factor in Finals competition it becomes an even bigger joke.

so if the competition is "so much better"... not that I agree

do you give Dirk's teammates "extra credit" as well? doesn't that mean they must be playing better too (than Duncan's teammates)?

or is it just Dirk that get's all the glory (to yall)?

and let's be real, the Blazers' best player didn't even average 25 mpg, and the Thunder were WCF playoff virgins who looked very inexperienced, and the Lakers just flat out sucked, regardless of perception. Pau averaged 13 and 8 in the playoffs :oldlol:

And lots not forget when talking about all this... Duncan was the MVP that year, so it's not "wrong" to expect the Spurs to do well in 2003... PLaying up to expectations is HARDLY a bad thing.

and still doesn't change the fact that Duncan meant so much more to the Spurs offense and defense, regardless of competition... and showed that to a T

[DMAVS41]

Then I don't even see the point of this thread. That's nice that no one expected Dirk to win. That's nice that the Mavericks are playing so well, but it has nothing to do with how good Dirk is. So nobody should be comparing Dirk to Hakeem and Duncan.

It absolutely does have to do with Dirk.

He's been playing amazing ball and carrying a team with no other 2nd star. If he did that against the kind of competition he's facing it would be one of the best and most improbable title runs of all time.

Do you honestly not realize the historic nature of Dirk beating Lebron/Wade in the finals and winning finals MVP?

[magnax1]

It absolutely does have to do with Dirk.

He's been playing amazing ball and carrying a team with no other 2nd star. If he did that against the kind of competition he's facing it would be one of the best and most improbable title runs of all time.

Do you honestly not realize the historic nature of Dirk beating Lebron/Wade in the finals and winning finals MVP?
So you're saying that if Dirk beat Lebron and Wade, he'd be in the same tier as Hakeem and Duncan?
Or that it'd just be cool?

[DMAVS41]

So you're saying that if Dirk beat Lebron and Wade, he'd be in the same tier as Hakeem and Duncan?
Or that it'd just be cool?

That his playoff run would be in the same tier.

Overall as player rankings? Hell no.

For the record i have:

Duncan 6th
Hakeem 9th

If Dirk wins a ring somewhere in the 17 to 23 range.

[tpols]

. That's nice that the Mavericks are playing so well, but it has nothing to do with how good Dirk is. .
What?

Have you seen all of the clutch performances Dirk has put up in the playoffs? There the best I've ever seen honestly. It's to the point where if there's a few minutes left, and he has the ball, there's just no way the ball isn't going through the basket. Made me so mad against the thunder.. but now I'm glad he's doing it again against the heat. He also put up quite possible the best shooting exhibition in the history of the game when he scored 48 points on 96.. yes 96 fvcking TS%. Absolutely ridiculous. Dirk has been the engine behind this team the whole run and has a solid argument for being the best playoff performer for 2011.. I don't know what more can be asked of him now.

[magnax1]

What?

Have you seen all of the clutch performances Dirk has put up in the playoffs? There the best I've ever seen honestly. It's to the point where if there's a few minutes left, and he has the ball, there's just no way the ball isn't going through the basket. Made me so mad against the thunder.. but now I'm glad he's doing it again against the heat. He also put up quite possible the best shooting exhibition in the history of the game when he scored 48 points on 96.. yes 96 fvcking TS%. Absolutely ridiculous. Dirk has been the engine behind this team the whole run and has a solid argument for being the best playoff performer for 2011.. I don't know what more can be asked of him now.
I mean, as in his team playing this well has nothing to do with how good Dirk is or how he compares to Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

What?

Have you seen all of the clutch performances Dirk has put up in the playoffs? There the best I've ever seen honestly. It's to the point where if there's a few minutes left, and he has the ball, there's just no way the ball isn't going through the basket. Made me so mad against the thunder.. but now I'm glad he's doing it again against the heat. He also put up quite possible the best shooting exhibition in the history of the game when he scored 48 points on 96.. yes 96 fvcking TS%. Absolutely ridiculous. Dirk has been the engine behind this team the whole run and has a solid argument for being the best playoff performer for 2011.. I don't know what more can be asked of him now.

3 more clutch performances in tight games. That is what can and will be asked of him. Lets all hope he does it.

I hope non Heat fans are all pulling for the Mavs. I hope we can all agree on that.

[DMAVS41]

I mean, as in his team playing this well has nothing to do with how good Dirk is or how he compares to Duncan.

If Dirk wasn't playing the best clutch basketball since MJ the Mavs would probably sitting at home right now.

Its not like the Mavs are blowing teams out. We've had to come from behind and win so many tight games.

And whats the common thread? Dirk playing out of his mind in pretty much every 4th qtr.

The one loss against the Thunder? Dirk had 16 in the 4th.

Seriously. Do you people watch the games? You act like Tyson Chandler is giving us 20/10 every night or something.

Wake up.

[magnax1]

If Dirk wasn't playing the best clutch basketball since MJ the Mavs would probably sitting at home right now.

Its not like the Mavs are blowing teams out. We've had to come from behind and win so many tight games.

And whats the common thread? Dirk playing out of his mind in pretty much every 4th qtr.

The one loss against the Thunder? Dirk had 16 in the 4th.

Seriously. Do you people watch the games? You act like Tyson Chandler is giving us 20/10 every night or something.

Wake up.
And if his team didn't play so well he wouldn't have been there. I just hate it when people give a teams credit to an individual. It's stupid.

[DMAVS41]

And if his team didn't play so well he wouldn't have been there. I just hate it when people give a teams credit to an individual. It's stupid.

That is what you are doing with Duncan man.

LOL

Dirk's supporting cast is very similar to Duncan's. Thats why the comparisons are coming up.

Its a 1 superstar team with solid role players but no true 2nd star. Teams like that almost never win. Really only Duncan in 03, Hakeem in 94, and Barry in 75 have done it.

Its extremely rare. And if Duncan's teammates didn't play so well he wouldn't have been there.

Just like 02 for Duncan. Duncan actually played as good or better in the playoffs but his teammates weren't good enough.

Thats the freaking point.

[magnax1]

That is what you are doing with Duncan man.

LOL

Dirk's supporting cast is very similar to Duncan's. Thats why the comparisons are coming up.

Its a 1 superstar team with solid role players but no true 2nd star. Teams like that almost never win. Really only Duncan in 03, Hakeem in 94, and Barry in 75 have done it.

Its extremely rare. And if Duncan's teammates didn't play so well he wouldn't have been there.

Just like 02 for Duncan. Duncan actually played as good or better in the playoffs but his teammates weren't good enough.

Thats the freaking point.
No it's not what I'm doing to Duncan. Duncan is a better player. It has nothing to do with their teams, he just played much better. That's what I've been saying this whole ****ing time!

[DMAVS41]

No it's not what I'm doing to Duncan. Duncan is a better player. It has nothing to do with their teams, he just played much better. That's what I've been saying this whole ****ing time!

That is not the debate.

So you think Duncan still wins the title without help?

What happened in 02 then? Why didn't he win?

I never thought that I would see the day where that Dirk could play like this and have a team like this any people say he's getting too much help to be compared to other greats that have led teams.

What?

[SCdac]

I'm starting to think that if the Mavs win a series against a supposed "better team" than it's not like they ever proved that they were the better team, they just "over achieved" and are actually still the worse team.. because "experts" said so on a sports website... It was just Dirk that was better, but not his team, just Dirk... The point with Duncan is, he meant more to an "average win" in the playoffs than Dirk (talking 2003 PO Duncan to Dirk now). He was their best defender (spurs would be nothing without him), he was their best playmaker (he lead the Spurs in assists), he was their best scorer (lead the team in scoring), he got to the line the most (got teams in the most foul trouble), and played the most minutes by far (played almost entire games outside of 5-6 minutes)... You just can't say that about Dirk. Great run, but not the same value, about 25% to 50% less to me. Still the best player on his team and still carrying them offensively though. Just didn't mean as much as Duncan did to the Spurs in 03. Close but not the same.

[DMAVS41]

I'm starting to think that if the Mavs win a series against a supposed "better team" than it's not like they ever proved that they were the better team, they just "over achieved" and are actually still the worse team.. because "experts" said so on a sports website... It was just Dirk that was better, but not his team, just Dirk... The point with Duncan is, he meant more to an "average win" in the playoffs than Dirk (talking 2003 PO Duncan to Dirk now). He was their best defender (spurs would be nothing without him), he was their best playmaker (he lead the Spurs in assists), he was their best scorer (lead the team in scoring), he got to the line the most (got teams in the most foul trouble), and played the most minutes by far (played almost entire games outside of 5-6 minutes)... You just can't say that about Dirk. Great run, but not the same value, about 25% to 50% less to me. Still the best player on his team and still carrying them offensively though. Just didn't mean as much as Duncan did to the Spurs in 03. Close but not the same.

You contradict yourself. 25 to 50 percent better is not close.

[magnax1]

That is not the debate.

So you think Duncan still wins the title without help?

What happened in 02 then? Why didn't he win?

I never thought that I would see the day where that Dirk could play like this and have a team like this any people say he's getting too much help to be compared to other greats that have led teams.

What?
I never said he's getting to much help, he's just not as good! If you're not debating how good he is, then why are you talking about comparing him to other greats?

[nycelt84]

The Mavs have the highest payroll in the league, have 2 Hall of Famers as starters, have another multiple time All-Star as a starter as well. The '94 Rockets had none of that.

[DMAVS41]

I never said he's getting to much help, he's just not as good! If you're not debating how good he is, then why are you talking about comparing him to other greats?

What?

Its about comparing the playoff runs. Not just player x vs player y in a vacuum.

I can't explain it any better than tpols and I have.

[thomaspynchon]

The Mavs have the highest payroll in the league, have 2 Hall of Famers as starters, have another multiple time All-Star as a starter as well. The '94 Rockets had none of that.

Didn't they have Drexler.

Also, the Knicks were nowhere near as good as the teams Dallas have beat this postseason.

[DMAVS41]

Didn't they have Drexler.

Also, the Knicks were nowhere near as good as the teams Dallas have beat this postseason.

Nope.

Drexler came in 95.

Hakeem's title in 94 will remain the best for me regardless of what happens the rest of this series.

[thomaspynchon]

Nope.

Drexler came in 95.

Hakeem's title in 94 will remain the best for me regardless of what happens the rest of this series.

Who was on that team?

Dirk has faced much better competition.

[DMAVS41]

Who was on that team?

Dirk has faced much better competition.

It was like Thorpe, Maxwell, Elie, Horry, Kenny Smith, Cassell....

We have not faced much better competition and that supporting cast is not as good as Dirk's.

They beat a very good Suns team with Barkely and KJ.
A really good Jazz team with Stockton, Malone, and Hornacek.
Then they beat the Ewing Knicks in the finals.

I love Dirk, but that run is the best ever and won't be eclipsed by Dirk this season.

[thomaspynchon]

It was like Thorpe, Maxwell, Elie, Horry, Kenny Smith, Cassell....

We have not faced much better competition and that supporting cast is not as good as Dirk's.

They beat a very good Suns team with Barkely and KJ.
A really good Jazz team with Stockton, Malone, and Hornacek.
Then they beat the Ewing Knicks in the finals.

I love Dirk, but that run is the best ever and won't be eclipsed by Dirk this season.

Holy shit yeah I remember those runs. But the Knicks weren't really that good. The Western teams were all great though.

Dirk has beat 3 great teams so far.

I think people look back on history far too much and decide that something can never be eclipsed. Dirk has been about 2x as good as he was in 05-06, and that's saying a lot.

[DMAVS41]

Holy shit yeah I remember those runs. But the Knicks weren't really that good. The Western teams were all great though.

Dirk has beat 3 great teams so far.

I think people look back on history far too much and decide that something can never be eclipsed. Dirk has been about 2x as good as he was in 05-06, and that's saying a lot.

If you've seen the thread you know where I stand.

I have Hakeem's run number 1.
Assuming Dirk wins it all, I would have Dirk's run slightly ahead of Duncan's.

I disagree about Dirk being twice as good now though. I think you are seeing what Dirk would have been like his entire career if he actually had a decent center playing next to him.

A prime Dirk with Chandler helping on the boards and defense would have been sick.

[sh0wtime]

Yes, but over '03 Duncan.

[Bigsmoke]

If you've seen the thread you know where I stand.

I have Hakeem's run number 1.
Assuming Dirk wins it all, I would have Dirk's run slightly ahead of Duncan's.

I disagree about Dirk being twice as good now though. I think you are seeing what Dirk would have been like his entire career if he actually had a decent center playing next to him.

A prime Dirk with Chandler helping on the boards and defense would have been sick.

Dirk isnt in his prime right now?

damn where was I at?

[DMAVS41]

Dirk isnt in his prime right now?

damn where was I at?

Prime generally means where you are as an athlete. Dirk used to be a beast on the boards. He used to blow by his man more frequently.

He's playing great ball right now, but this is not prime Dirk.

Prime Dirk was capable of going for 35 and 15. You don't see that anymore. Doesn't mean he's not still great of course, I just don't think people understand just how good Dirk was the last few years.

I good example of prime Dirk has the 09 series against the Nuggets. 35 points 12 boards 4 assists for the series. Worst game of the series he shot 47%.

He had everything. He could attack the rim better, his passing had reached the level it is now, he was quicker on defense, and he was still a beast on the boards.

[branslowski]

:oldlol: , N!ggas arguing like this "on par" shit really matters....At the end of the day, it's one title, one finals MVP, not a top 15 player....

I'd rather be on par with being a top 10 players of All-Time or the greatest player of All-Time (Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Magic, exc...), not on par with Rick Barry and Hakeem...

Anyway, hope Dirk get's his first title ever after being in the league more than a decade...Also, rather Dirk get overrated after a title than LeBron and Wade...

[thomaspynchon]

If you've seen the thread you know where I stand.

I have Hakeem's run number 1.
Assuming Dirk wins it all, I would have Dirk's run slightly ahead of Duncan's.

I disagree about Dirk being twice as good now though. I think you are seeing what Dirk would have been like his entire career if he actually had a decent center playing next to him.

A prime Dirk with Chandler helping on the boards and defense would have been sick.

Literally every time Dirk gets the ball now I know it's going to be a basket. I've never seen anything like it before. It's a tease to imagine what this team could be like with prime kidd, peja, and marion, plus healthy butler.

[branslowski]

Literally every time Dirk gets the ball now I know it's going to be a basket. I've never seen anything like it before. It's a tease to imagine what this team could be like with prime kidd, peja, and marion, plus healthy butler.

You felt that way during game 1 and the first 3 quarters of game 2?...:confusedshrug:

[rmt]

Dirk's supporting cast is very similar to Duncan's. Thats why the comparisons are coming up.

Its a 1 superstar team with solid role players but no true 2nd star. Teams like that almost never win. Really only Duncan in 03, Hakeem in 94, and Barry in 75 have done it.


The 2002-03 Spurs team was characterized by a superstar with a bunch of young, untested, inexperienced players . They constantly gave up big leads with 4th quarter melt-downs. Here are the number of years in the league (those who played double digit mins and sorted by PPG):

Parker 2
Jackson 2
Manu 1
Malik 6
Robinson 14
Bowen 6
Claxton 3
Total years: 34

The 2010-11 Mavs team is a superstar with a bunch of battle-tested, experienced veterans who repeatedly come back from being down in 4th quarters to win games.

Terry 11
Marion 11
Kidd 16
Barea 4
Peja 12
Chandler 9
Stevenson 10
Haywood 9
Total years: 82

So if you were to take out David Robinson who only played 23 mins/game, the Spurs who played double-digit mins. had a total of 20 years in the league - that's less than 3 years per player. That's a very young team. The Spurs' 2nd, 3rd and 4th (rookie) options had 5 years experience among them. I would not call the surrounding casts similar.

[DMAVS41]

The 2002-03 Spurs team was characterized by a superstar with a bunch of young, untested, inexperienced players . They constantly gave up big leads with 4th quarter melt-downs. Here are the number of years in the league (those who played double digit mins and sorted by PPG):

Parker 2
Jackson 2
Manu 1
Malik 6
Robinson 14
Bowen 6
Claxton 3
Total years: 34

The 2010-11 Mavs team is a superstar with a bunch of battle-tested, experienced veterans who repeatedly come back from being down in 4th quarters to win games.

Terry 11
Marion 11
Kidd 16
Barea 4
Peja 12
Chandler 9
Stevenson 10
Haywood 9
Total years: 82

So if you were to take out David Robinson who only played 23 mins/game, the Spurs who played double-digit mins. had a total of 20 years in the league - that's less than 3 years per player. That's a very young team. I would not call the surrounding casts similar.

What you are forgetting is that they have so much experience because they are freaking old. They aren't in their primes. Not to mention the actual production is very similar.

For all that experience, Peja and Haywood are simply not as good as Manu and Rose were that year. Robinson's impact was very similar to Chandler's. Parker and Jackson were very similar to Terry and Marion.

I said similar. Not exactly the same.

I also said I'd give the edge to Dirk's supporting cast because of Kidd.

But when you factor in the teams they had to play and the fact that the Mavs are freaking old, its about even.

I think people have this Mavs team confused. This isn't a bunch of savy vets playing in their primes playing great ball. Its a bunch of washed up vets on their last legs making one last stand. Totally different.

Did you watch Peja the last two games? The dude looks like he's running in quick sand.

I totally agree about the experience factor, but lets not forget about the age factor as well. Especially when playing the most athletic team in the league in the finals.

[Norcaliblunt]

The 95 Rockets team run, lead by Hakeem shits on all of them. A 6th seed who faced elimination a crap load of times, and came back from a 1-3 deficit on the road. Defeated Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson (Hakeem destroying the league MVP), and Shaq/Penny. That stuff was unbelievable.

[rmt]

What you are forgetting is that they have so much experience because they are freaking old. They aren't in their primes. Not to mention the actual production is very similar.

For all that experience, Peja and Haywood are simply not as good as Manu and Rose were that year. Robinson's impact was very similar to Chandler's. Parker and Jackson were very similar to Terry and Marion.

I said similar. Not exactly the same.

I also said I'd give the edge to Dirk's supporting cast because of Kidd.

But when you factor in the teams they had to play and the fact that the Mavs are freaking old, its about even.

I think people have this Mavs team confused. This isn't a bunch of savy vets playing in their primes playing great ball. Its a bunch of washed up vets on their last legs making one last stand. Totally different.

Did you watch Peja the last two games? The dude looks like he's running in quick sand.

I totally agree about the experience factor, but lets not forget about the age factor as well. Especially when playing the most athletic team in the league in the finals.

Terry 32.5 mins.
Marion 32.5
Kidd 34.9
Barea 17.3
Peja 20.2
Chandler 31.1
Stevenson 15.6
Haywood 15.9

As a fan of the Spurs, I'm not buying that "freaking old" excuse. You, as well as I, know that it's the experienced teams that win - not young teams.

10 Lakers
09 Lakers
08 Celtics
07 Spurs
06 Heat
05 Spurs
04 Pistons

With the exception of Kidd, no one is playing a lot of minutes. Give me experience any day over youth - more poise, better composure, don't make as many dumb, stupid mistakes, don't give up, keep focus better - much more important qualities in pressure-packed playoff situations.

[SCdac]

what's funny is this is not even Duncan's first or last title being argued over... not even sure if it's his most impressive one.... but that's beside the point.

looking at what he did in the 1999 Finals, it was pretty amazing too

(that Spurs team fielded starters of a 33 year old center, 33 year old PG, 30 year old SG, and 31 year old SF)

game 1: 33 pts, 16 reb, 2 ast, 2 stl, 2 blk
game 2: 25 pts, 15 reb, 3 ast, 4 blk
game 3: 20 pts, 12 reb, 2 ast, 3 stl, 1 blk (only loss)
game 4: 28 pts, 18 reb, 5 blk
game 5: 31 pts, 9 reb, 2 ast, 1 blk

but what he did in the 2003 playoffs, is even more amazing, it's something Dirk is not really close to doing when you look closer at both parts of the game...

Maybe now, when everybody is high off of it it'll seem comparable.. but for those who watched that Spurs team, Duncan was an orchestrator and master in the post, and played some of his best defense in the playoffs. He was a shot blocking specialist and enforced his will in the paint. The Spurs played through him, and relied on him defensively...

As mentioned early in this thread, in the 03 playoffs Duncan played 200+ more minutes than the next leading player in mpg (Parker @ 34 mpg).

People are seriously underrating Duncan's 03 post season run IMO...

Maybe because it wasn't against "sexy" opponents or whatever (as if toppling the Shaq-Kobe-Phil Jackson Lakers wasn't impressive), but it's all pretty shortsighted and actually knee-jerk reactionary IMO.

First off, Duncan's court vision, for a player of his size, it's part of an elite group... it's one aspect of his post season run that's not being given enough credit. Parker was a young shoot-first point guard who took too many three's, and Claxton was nothing but a role playing guard off the bench who was never destined for any kind of greatness.

2003 total post-season assists:

1. Jason Kidd - 163
2. Steve Nash - 145
3. Tim Duncan - 127
4. Allen Iverson - 89
5. Tony Parker - 85

But just looking at his defensive impact... let's just say him, and the Spurs. MADE teams look weak.

You can't ignore Duncan's impact on the defensive end... I'm seeing alot of that in this thread.

some stats...

All-time "Blocks in a single Post-Season " list:

1. Hakeem Olajuwon - 92 blocks (1994)
2: Tim Duncan - 79 blocks (2003)
3. Patrick Ewing - 76 blocks (1994)
4. Dikembe Mutombo - 72 blocks (1991)
5. Hakeem / Mutombo - 69 blocks (1986 / 1994)

All-time "Rebounds in a single Post-Season" list:

1. Wilt Chamberlain - 444 (1969)
2. Wilt Chamberlain - 437 (1967)
3. Bill Russell - 434 (1968)
4. Bill Russell - 428 (1966)
5. Wilt Chamberlain - 399 (1970
6. Wilt Chamberlain - 383 (1973)
7. Bill Russell - 370 (1962)
8. Bill Russell - 369 (1969)
8. Tim Duncan - 369 (2003)
10. Shaquille O'Neal - 355 (2000)

Defensive Win shares in single Post-season list:

1. Ben Wallace - 2.76 (2004)
2. Ben Wallace - 2.68 (2005)
3. Tim Duncan - 2.67 (2003)
4. Patrick Ewing - 2.43 (1994)
5. Bill Russell - 2.36 (1965)

that is very elite company :applause:

The defensive and offensive rebounding, and the rim protection by Duncan was not flashy, it was not exciting --- but it was amazing in it's own right.

[DMAVS41]

SCdac

You are arguing something that nobody else is.

I have not seen one person say Dirk is better right now than Duncan was in 2003.

Like I and others have repeatedly said. Duncan was simply a better player then.

The only thing we disagree on is how much better Duncan was in 2003. You say almost 50% better.

I personally think that is way too much of a gap given what Dirk has done so far in the playoffs.

But nobody is even arguing that anyway.

We are arguing which playoff run is better. And that conversation has a lot more to do with things other than just individual play.

I have no idea why this isn't being comprehended.

[SCdac]

We are arguing which playoff run is better. And that conversation has a lot more to do with things other than just individual play.

I have no idea why this isn't being comprehended.

what are you talking about? :confusedshrug:

I'm arguing Duncan's playoff run vs. Dirk's playoff run.

Considering team play (level of help), competition, individual and team success... and where they rank all-time

those are post-season stats I posted...

[thomaspynchon]

Dirk is better than Duncan ever was.

I remember when the Mavs went small on the spurs in 02-03 it completely threw Duncan off his game.

If not for old man Kerr Dallas would have won that series.

[DMAVS41]

what are you talking about? :confusedshrug:

I'm arguing Duncan's playoff run vs. Dirk's playoff run.

Considering team play (level of help), competition, individual and team success... and where they rank all-time

those are post-season stats I posted...

You aren't factoring in competition level or expectations at all.

The Spurs were huge favorites in every series but one. And they had home court against a Lakers team that struggled all year and only won 50 games.

The Spurs then got the Mavs without Dirk and probably the worst finals team of the decade with the 49 win Nets.

The Mavs were picked by many to lose in the first round, were huge underdogs in the 2nd round, slight favorites in the WCF, and now huge underdogs in the Finals.

You aren't giving enough credit to the nature of the Mavs run and what beating the Lebron/Wade Heat in the finals would mean.

Not to mention you are saying Duncan was nearly 50% better. Which is simply a freaking joke.

[SCdac]

You aren't factoring in competition level or expectations at all.

The Spurs were huge favorites in every series but one. And they had home court against a Lakers team that struggled all year and only won 50 games.

The Spurs then got the Mavs without Dirk and probably the worst finals team of the decade with the 49 win Nets.

The Mavs were picked by many to lose in the first round, were huge underdogs in the 2nd round, slight favorites in the WCF, and now huge underdogs in the Finals.

You aren't giving enough credit to the nature of the Mavs run and what beating the Lebron/Wade Heat in the finals would mean.

Not to mention you are saying Duncan was nearly 50% better. Which is simply a freaking joke.

dude, that is, like, your opinion...

Duncan's post season was legendary :confusedshrug:

[thomaspynchon]

dude, that is, like, your opinion...

Duncan's post season was legendary :confusedshrug:

Holy shit, Spurs were the top seed and managed to win it all! Way to defy all expectations!

certainly more impressive than a 3 seed sweeping the back to back champions and beating a team with 2 top 5 players in their prime!

[rmt]

Dirk is better than Duncan ever was.

I remember when the Mavs went small on the spurs in 02-03 it completely threw Duncan off his game.

If not for old man Kerr Dallas would have won that series.

Dirk is not better than Duncan ever was. The things Dirk has on Duncan are scoring and free throws - virtually everything else Duncan did better.

And who do you think Dallas was double-teaming which left Kerr open for all those 3s. That's right - Duncan.

[SCdac]

Holy shit, Spurs were the top seed and managed to win it all! Way to defy all expectations!

certainly more impressive than a 3 seed sweeping the back to back champions and beating a team with 2 top 5 players in their prime!

The Spurs beat one of the best teams of the last decade... in the Lakers.

We could go on back and forth about competition, it's not like the Spurs beat scrubs.

And it's not like Dirk is doing it "alone" either.

He got 86 points off the Mavs bench in the last game against the Lakers... he scored 17 in the game.

[thomaspynchon]

The Spurs beat one of the best teams of the last decade... in the Lakers.

We could go on back and forth about competition, it's not like the Spurs beat scrubs.

And it's not like Dirk is doing it "alone" either.

He got 86 points off the Mavs bench in the last game against the Lakers... he scored 17 in the game.

The Lakers were what, a 4 seed that season?

And the spurs beat a dirk-less mavs squad past game 3.

Duncan was amazing but to assert that he was significantly better than current dirk is just an insult to basketball.

[SCdac]

The Lakers were what, a 4 seed that season?

And the spurs beat a dirk-less mavs squad past game 3.

Duncan was amazing but to assert that he was significantly better than current dirk is just an insult to basketball.

OK buddy.

It's like Dirk Homer #1 and Dirk Homer #2 over here...

I'm not exactly saying anything people didn't already know. :confusedshrug:

Just posted some OBJECTIVE stats that put Duncan's run in pretty elite company.

but yall don't care about defense, of course... actually kind of a shame.

[Fatal9]

These teams are never as bad as people make them out to be. Just shows a weak understanding of how the teams were built, and a huge fascination with stats to prop up your favorite player. '03 Spurs and the Mavericks this year are pretty complete teams to me.

'94 Rockets too were not as BAD as people are making them out to be. If Starks doesn't choke that year, is Ewing suddenly on some godly level because he does it without not much help (his teammates stats would say that anyway)? Relative to who they faced, Hakeem had more than enough to beat everyone in his way, the team was built well around him and played well when it mattered. I thought his cast in '95 was weaker and at the same time he faced stiffer competition (60 win teams starting in the first round), even though he had a better "#2", the team was weaker. It's more impressive to me than any other individual run in history to me actually.


People also continue to underrate Duncan's 2003 team. Duncan dominated no doubt, but when you actually sit down and watch them, you don't feel like they were a weak "supporting cast". I didn't feel that way then and I don't feel that way now after revisiting some of those games. All playoff long, everyone was commending the Spurs for building a perfect team around him. And if you watch them play, you never felt like the team had a weakness. They could flat out lock you down, could stifle guards on the perimeter with Bowen, throw bangers who were good post defenders like Rose and give you beastly interior D with Duncan/D-Rob. If you look at the team as a whole, or watch them play, they weren't as weak as people are making them out to be after looking at just stats. Would have been even more dominant if they had a 20+ ppg secondary scorer, but the team wasn't really lacking anything.

Interior defense: Duncan, Robinson
Rebounding: Duncan, Rose, Robinson
Perimeter defense: Bowen (think if Antonio Daniels was defending Kobe again, Spurs are beating the Lakers?)
Outside shooting: Ginobili, Bowen, Stephen Jackson
Playmaking off the dribble: Ginobili, Parker
Guard scoring: Parker, Ginobili, Jackson (inconsistent but two out three would usually step up in basically every game to give you 30-40 pts combined)
Bench: Ginobili, Rose, Claxton
Coaching: Popovich

Add in some lucky breaks like Horry going something like 0/20 on three pointers in the series and missing a buzzer beating 3 that would have shifted the series in LA's favor, weak finals matchup against a team that didn't even win 50 games, avoiding a series with Kings (who matched up better against Spurs) because Webber tore his knee against the Mavs (Mavs had horrible interior D), Dirk getting injured midway through in the WCF and teammates stepping up at right moments like Parker in last two wins vs. LA, Jackson vs. Mavs, Bowen hitting 7 threes and shutting down Kobe in one of the wins vs. LA etc etc, and it's not this groundbreaking accomplishment people are making it out to be. Duncan should rightly get a ton of credit, he played like a god but just because there wasn't a strong "#2" doesn't mean the team sucked. That said, Duncan stepped up at all the right moments, closed out Lakers with a 37/16/4 game, won back home court against Mavs with a 34/24/6/6 game, and destroyed the Nets in the finals.

[rmt]

Defense wins championships. It's no coincidence that the acquisition of Chandler and Avery as coach stressing defense with Dampier/Diop in the paint resulted in the Mavs' 2 trips to the finals. Great offense without the ability to make stops (ala PHX Suns or Nellie ball) won't result in rings.



Duncan was amazing but to assert that he was significantly better than current dirk is just an insult to basketball.

Dirk is having a legendary run on the offensive end. Duncan had a legendary run on both the offensive and defensive ends of the court.

[thomaspynchon]

OK buddy.

It's like Dirk Homer #1 and Dirk Homer #2 over here...

I'm not exactly saying anything people didn't already know. :confusedshrug:

Just posted some OBJECTIVE stats that put Duncan's run in pretty elite company.

but yall don't care about defense, of course... actually kind of a shame.

Dirk's been playing great defense all postseason.

[thomaspynchon]

Defense wins championships. It's no coincidence that the acquisition of Chandler and Avery as coach stressing defense with Dampier/Diop in the paint resulted in the Mavs' 2 trips to the finals. Great offense without the ability to make stops (ala PHX Suns or Nellie ball) won't result in rings.



Dirk is having a legendary run on the offensive end. Duncan had a legendary run on both the offensive and defensive ends of the court.

Duncan wasn't anywhere near as good as Dirk on offense. Not even close.

[rmt]

Duncan wasn't anywhere near as good as Dirk on offense. Not even close.

Dirk 2011 playoffs
28.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 2.8 asst / .6 blk on 50.5% FG

Duncan 2003 playoffs
24.7 pts / 15.4 rebs / 5.3 asst / 3.3 blk on 52.9% FG

I think 2.8 assists and 28.1 points on 50.5% FG is close to 5.3 assists and 24.7 points on 52.9% FG. Duncan's extra 2.5 assists results in 5 more points. Saying it's not even close is a homer POV.

[thomaspynchon]

Dirk 2011 playoffs
28.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 2.8 asst / .6 blk on 50.5% FG

Duncan 2003 playoffs
24.7 pts / 15.4 rebs / 5.3 asst / 3.3 blk on 52.9% FG

I think 2.8 assists and 28.1 points on 50.5% FG is close to 5.3 assists and 24.7 points on 52.9% FG. Duncan's extra 2.5 assists results in 5 more points. Saying it's not even close is a homer POV.

Who was the closer for the Spurs?

[SCdac]

" Bill Walton: We have seen literally every shot imaginable from Tim Duncan in this series. Is there anything he can't do!? How do you guard a guy that skilled, that versatile, that complete? "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY

21 points
20 rebounds
10 assists
8 blocks
46 minutes

Second Finals MVP

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/2003/0609_large.jpg

[Fatal9]

Dirk 2011 playoffs
28.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 2.8 asst / .6 blk on 50.5% FG

Duncan 2003 playoffs
24.7 pts / 15.4 rebs / 5.3 asst / 3.3 blk on 52.9% FG

I think 2.8 assists and 28.1 points on 50.5% FG is close to 5.3 assists and 24.7 points on 52.9% FG. Duncan's extra 2.5 assists results in 5 more points. Saying it's not even close is a homer POV.
FG% ignores Dirk's insane efficiency from 3 pointers and FTs, and is a poor overall reflection of Dirk's true efficiency. More like 28.1 ppg on 63 TS% (this is historically great in the playoffs for the amount of games he's played and for how much he's scoring), Duncan 24.7 ppg on 58 TS% (good but not mindblowing or anything). Dirk has been better offensively for sure, especially when you consider what he's been doing when the games have been on the line. His assist numbers also don't really tell you how many opportunities he creates for his teammates because he spaces out the floor so well for a PF (and like Duncan, he's read doubles really well too, but IMO Dirk creates more without even touching the ball because defense has to worried about him from every spot on the floor).

[SCdac]

FG% ignores Dirk's insane efficiency from 3 pointers and FTs, and is a poor overall reflection of Dirk's true efficiency. More like 28.1 ppg on 63 TS% (this is historically great in the playoffs for the amount of games he's played and for how much he's scoring), Duncan 24.7 ppg on 58 TS% (good but not mindblowing or anything). Dirk has been better offensively for sure, especially when you consider what he's been doing when the games have been on the line. His assist numbers also don't really tell you how many opportunities he creates for his teammates because he spaces out the floor so well for a PF (and like Duncan, he's read doubles really well too, but IMO Dirk creates more without even touching the ball because defense has to worried about him from every spot on the floor).

Even when you consider Duncan's less efficient free throw shooting, he still got to the line alot, and made teams pay for not being able to cover him off the dribble or keep him off the boards. He took 232 free throws in the '03 playoffs which is the 5th most of all time in a playoff run. He made 157 of them which is the 14th highest amount of all time (right behind Iverson in 2001) and it accounted for about .25% of his scoring. So, while he's not as efficient as Dirk, his free throw-volume was still very elite and he got starting bigs in foul trouble. 10-14 in free throws is only .714%, but it's still 10 free throws in the bank. This, in combination with the rest of his offensive repertoire, and he just beasted.

[Anaximandro1]

The Lakers were what, a 4 seed that season?
Shaq missed 15 games.The Lakers (50-32) went 5-10 without him.They had prime Shaq,prime Kobe,Horry,Fisher...


And the spurs beat a dirk-less mavs squad past game 3.The series were probably over before Dirk got hurt.

Game 1 -Duncan 40 pts,15 rb,7 as,1 blk
Game 2 -Duncan 32 pts,15 rb,5 as,3 blk
Game 3 -Duncan 34 pts,24rb,6 as,6 blk


Duncan was amazing but to assert that he was significantly better than current dirk is just an insult to basketball.Duncan always OUTSCORED and outplayed Dirk in their first four postseason meetings (2001-2009).

2001 Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-1 Over Mavs

Duncan averaged 26.8 pts (51%),17.4 rb,3.6 as,2 blk

Dirk averaged 23.0 pts (40%),8.6 rb,1.2 as,0.8 blk

2003 Western Conference Finals / Spurs 4-2 over Mavs

Duncan averaged 28 pts (57%),16.7 rb,5.8 as,3 blk

Dirk averaged 25.3 pts (43%) 11.3 rb,2.0 as,0.7 blk

2006 Western Conference Semifinals / Mavs 4-3 over Spurs

Duncan 32.2 pts (56%),11.7 rbs,3.7 as,2.6 blk

Dirk 27.1 pts (52.7%),13.3 rb,2.7 as,0.4 blk

2009 FR / Mavs 4-1 over Spurs

Duncan 19.8 pts (53%),8 rbs,3.2 as,1.2 blk

Dirk 19.2 pts (49%),8.6 rb,2.2 as,0.6 blk


Duncan wasn't anywhere near as good as Dirk on offense.Not even close.Peak Duncan is more dominant and valuable offensively than any version of Dirk.

Perimeter-oriented players usually have higher ppg than post players;on top of that they are better closers.However,post players like Duncan or Hakeem score at will in the paint and have much higher field goal percentage,thus demanding more double teams.They create so much space for their teammates... that's why 2003 Duncan averages 5.3 assists while 2011 Dirk averages 2.8.On top of that,Duncan is one of the greatest offensive rebounders of all time,therefore he gives his team numerous second chance opportunities.


2003 Duncan 24.7 pts (53%),5.3 as,4.0 offensive rebounds

2011 Dirk 28.1 pts (50%) 2.8 as,0.6 offensive rebounds

Seriously,the ppg guys are out of control.What's next?Iverson better than Shaq on offense?


Regular Season
Iverson 26.7 ppg
Shaq 23.7 ppg

Playoffs
Iverson 29.7 ppg
Shaq 24.3 ppg

On a side note,can you imagine peak Duncan vs. Nick Collison,Ibaka,Joel Anthony,Crish Bosh or the depressed Pau Gasol? :roll: :roll:

[nycelt84]

I see some poster said Dallas beat 3 great teams to make it to the Finals. What makes and since when were the Blazers and Thunder great?

[Yung D-Will]

Who was the closer for the Spurs?

We're talking about the 03 spurs.

Who the hell do you think was the closer

[Duncan21formvp]

With Duncan and Hakeem they both avoided playing either the best team in there conference or the star on the other team was injured as was the case in Dallas in 2003 when the series was tied 2-2 and Dirk was out games 5 and 6.