Wade said:

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

per Yahoo sports...

good job Lebron following your leader

[PJR]

Op is a *******.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Op is a *******.

good job ...ur mama never said that to me SON...

[PJR]

Your mother should have swallowed you, though.

[DirkLegend41]

I thought LeBron said he was gonna be aggressive in game 3. He didn't do that.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

I thought LeBron said he was gonna be aggressive in game 3. He didn't do that.

is he a leader...dont think so...

The real LEADER was aggressive and got 29pts and 11rebounds

a chance to get FINALS MVP :)

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Your mother should have swallowed you, though.

week....:oldlol: :oldlol:

go try something new son :lol :lol

[Ne 1]

Your mother should have swallowed you, though.

stealing lines from rappers?

[YAWN]

lebron will bust out his "im the #1 leader" line in practice tomorrow that he tried to use on team usa with kidd and kobe. :oldlol:

[Heat007]

Wade's press conference after the game 3 when he said that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnIc3PhrvHw


Wade was very aggressive in practice the yesterday leading the team by example and telling them "this is the way" we are going to play tomorrow.

Then Wade did it on the court in the game right from the beginning. Wade also talks about how badly he wanted game 3 in his presser there in the link.

Both Wade and LeBron are identical as talents and "all-around" players, but the voice of the team, and the leader of the team, is clearly Dwyane "Flash" Wade.

[gilalizard]

yeah... Wade's a real badass...

when he's got a LeBron James as his second option

Wade's "victories" are the biggest asterisk currently in the league.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Wade's press conference after the game 3 when he said that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnIc3PhrvHw


Wade was very aggressive in practice the yesterday leading the team by example and telling them "this is the way" we are going to play tomorrow.

Then Wade did it on the court in the game right from the beginning. Wade also talks about how badly he wanted game 3 in his presser there in the link.

Both Wade and LeBron are identical as talents and "all-around" players, but the voice of the team, and the leader of the team, is clearly Dwyane "Flash" Wade.

Wade is the leader of this team

Wade never was a bytch a$$ & joined another team

Lequeen did...

This is wade's team and ways will be... No matter how much HARd ESPN tries to take it from him

[LBJWADE]

Wade's press conference after the game 3 when he said that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnIc3PhrvHw


Wade was very aggressive in practice the yesterday leading the team by example and telling them "this is the way" we are going to play tomorrow.

Then Wade did it on the court in the game right from the beginning. Wade also talks about how badly he wanted game 3 in his presser there in the link.

Both Wade and LeBron are identical as talents and "all-around" players, but the voice of the team, and the leader of the team, is clearly Dwyane "Flash" Wade.

Lebron was the leader vs the Bulls...

[LBJWADE]

yeah... Wade's a real badass...

when he's got a LeBron James as his second option

Wade's "victories" are the biggest asterisk currently in the league.
:lol true

[comerb]

good job ...ur mama never said that to me SON...

Lemme guess? 12... 13?

[Nobler]

OP is a *******

[ukballer]

The argument about who is the leader and who is the follower is so stupid and laughable, it's unbelievable.

Both guys are leaders. Often whoever leads the team on a given night is leading because either the match ups are allowing it, or they just recognise that that guy is feeling it. Wade has been feeling it the last few games. Wasn't it just a few games ago where he was struggling, and LeBron was the one who took it upon himself to lead for a few games? It's a similar tale to what we saw in the regular season.

I say props to both players for not trying to compete for number 1 status, and having the smarts to be able to recognise when to be aggressive and when not to be, and when to defer to the other guy. Both players have the ability to be playmakers rather than scorers, and they utilise that well. Hell, when Chris Bosh is feeling it, both Wade and LeBron happily step down a notch or two and let Bosh do his thing.

[knightfall88]

The argument about who is the leader and who is the follower is so stupid and laughable, it's unbelievable.

Both guys are leaders. Often whoever leads the team on a given night is leading because either the match ups are allowing it, or they just recognise that that guy is feeling it. Wade has been feeling it the last few games. Wasn't it just a few games ago where he was struggling, and LeBron was the one who took it upon himself to lead for a few games? It's a similar tale to what we saw in the regular season.

I say props to both players for not trying to compete for number 1 status, and having the smarts to be able to recognise when to be aggressive and when not to be, and when to defer to the other guy. Both players have the ability to be playmakers rather than scorers, and they utilise that well. Hell, when Chris Bosh is feeling it, both Wade and LeBron happily step down a notch or two and let Bosh do his thing.

cookie cutter response for a Lebron James fan.

[ukballer]

cookie cutter response for a Lebron James fan.

:oldlol:

Sure. Way to read my post. Didn't even bash Wade. I said they were both leaders. Anyone with half a brain is more than aware of this, regardless of the fact whether they have an agenda against LeBron, or Wade, or whoever.

Right now, at this fairly early stage of the series, my Finals MVP is Dwyane Wade. Does this all of a sudden mean it's purely 'his' team and only his? Lets not be ridiculous. I guess following this argument, when the Spurs last won and Tony Parker won Finals MVP, it was 'his' team, and Tim Duncan was just a follower? When Billups won Finals MVP, did that make Sheed, Big Ben and Rip just followers too?

Why do people have this narrow minded view that a team HAS to have one, almighty leader? Notice that a lot of people with this opinion are MJ fans. That's cool, MJ is MJ, the Bulls of that era had an almighty leader, and what a damn good leader he was. Does this mean other teams MUST follow this rule of thumb? No.

Next time read a post properly to not make yourself look like such a damn fool.

[C-P-3]

Heat fans already know that Wade is the real leader.

[dsrdsr]

Who cares? Its all about winning.

[heyhey]

Who cares? Its all about winning.

tell that to Bronze fans. they upset that their boy is just that.. a boy and Wade is the man of the team.

when they go to clubs, u kno that Wade gets first dibs

[Human Error]

Wade, been there and done that. Nothing wrong with following Wade. I just love how Wade and James can take turns dominating each series. :cheers:

[LBJ_MVP09]

I'm not sure why people haven't noticed that Wade only plays well when LeBron is playing like he has been the past couple games. When LBJ plays really great(scoring-wise) and dominates the ball, Wade sucks giant ass. LBJ however, can still put up 20/7/7 even when he lets Wade dominate the ball and get his 30 points.

[glidedrxlr22]

OP is a certified *******

[dude77]

Wade is the leader of this team

Wade never was a bytch a$$ & joined another team

Lequeen did...

This is wade's team and ways will be... No matter how much HARd ESPN tries to take it from him
wade didn't join another team .. he just recruited the best all around player in the league to come play with him .. same thing .. BUT .. nothing wrong with that .. you need players to win .. as a result the Miami Heat will be World Champs ..

this is the only ammunition the jealous folks have now .. arguing over which Heat Superstar is better .. nice

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

OP is a certified *******
Says a mother Fcuka

[G.O.A.T.]

From Coach Phil Jackson's book on how ridiculously immature Kobe was when he coached him, and how he was FAR from being a leader to lead a team. book released after 2004

Coach Phil Jackson:

“We were playing solid team ball, a rarity this season, although, as usual, Kobe seemed intent on taking over. “Get me the f***ing ball,” he said on his way to the bench, a demand Kobe had never verbalized. I smiled, didn’t say a word, and went to chart a play on the clipboard. I sometimes think Kobe is so addicted to being in control that he would rather shoot the ball when guarded, or even double-teamed, than dish it to an open teammate.

“They’re making you get in your attack mode,” I told him when he came off the floor during a timeout late in the game. “You’re going to have to pass the ball. They’re not calling the fouls for you.” He was in no mood to back down. “I’m going to f***ing crush them,” he said. “I just haven’t found my shooting yet.”

“I was at a motel in Williston, North Dakota, when the call came from Mitch. “You’re not going to believe this,” he said, telling me about Kobe and the rape allegations in Colorado. Was I surprised? Yes, but not entirely. Kobe can be consumed with surprising anger, which he’s displayed toward me and toward his teammates.”

“Why don’t the two get along? I have my theories, one of which is that Shaquille is making the type of money, about $25 million a year, that Kobe will never earn due to the changes in the league’s collective bargaining agreement. No matter how many MVP trophies Kobe might collect in the decade ahead, there is nothing he can do about this discrepancy. In fact, the word I got was that Kobe was the only player in the entire league who voted against the agreement because of the cap it put on salaries.”

“This was another example of the basic difference between him and Kobe. Ask Shaq to do something and he’ll say: “No, I don’t want to do that.” But after a little pouting, he will do it. Ask Kobe, and he’ll say “okay,” and then he will do whatever he wants.”

“Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense. Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.”

I had been told that in high school Kobe “sabotaged” games to keep them close enough for him to dominate at the end.

Shaq, clearly affected, began to respond when Kobe cut him off. “Quit your crying,” Kobe said. I then jumped in. “Kobe, you’re as much to blame as Shaq is, if not more.” “You’re the one who should f***ing talk,” he said. “You said I sabotaged games.”

“From what I understand, the defining characteristic of Kobe’s childhood was his anger.

“I’m not going to take any shit from Shaq this year,” Kobe blurted out. “If he starts saying things in the press, I’ll fire back. I’m not afraid to go up against him. I’ve had it.”

Kobe to the press: “I definitely don’t need advice on how to play my game,” he said “I know how to play my guard spot. He can worry about the low post” “When I asked Kobe to stop his habit of screaming at his teammates on the court because it creates insecurity, he came right back at me. “That’s bullshit,” he said. “You’re the one that’s causing them to be anxious. They’re afraid to make a mistake.”

“Earlier this week at El Segundo there was an incident at practice. On the way to the court, I asked Kobe, still nursing a sore shoulder, if he was up to doing a little running. Sure, he responded, as soon as he finished his treatment. Almost an hour went by, and there was no Kobe sighting. Finally, with an ice pack on his shoulder, he took a seat on the sideline. It began to dawn on me that contrary to what he had told me, Kobe had no intention of running. After practice I followed Kobe to the training room, asking him why he lied to me. He was being sarcastic, he said. Wrong answer. I told him that he needed to treat me with respect, not sarcasm. I turned and walked away, heading to the coaches’ locker room. A minute later I heard him cursing in the training room in front of the players, though I couldn’t make out the exact words….Now I was the one who was angry.
I went upstairs to see Mitch in his office.

Wasting no time, I went off on a tirade about the need to deal Kobe before the trading deadline in mid-February. “I won’t coach this team next year if he is still here,” I said emphatically. “He won’t listen to anyone. I’ve had it with this kid.” My monologue-Mitch barely said a word at first-reminded me of similar eruption in the middle of my first year when I presented what I thought was a very logical argument for trading Kobe at that time. “Everyone says what a mature person this kid is,” I said. “He’s not mature at all.” The deal I had in mind was Kobe to Phoenix for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion.”

“Are you feeling like you’re going to come back next year?” Jeanie asked me. “Well, not if Kobe Bryant is on this team next year,” I told her. “He’s too complex a person. I don’t need this.”

http://www.bareknucks.com/bashing-ko...y-phil-jackson

So that was Phil Jackson his coach.. And how about Phil Jackson's comment on kobe's rape accusation?? Is there anything more damaging to say about a person's character when you say that you weren't that surprised that Kobe was being accused of rape? - THAT'S FROM HIS HEAD COACH!!! The truth is Kobe is a total punk. A shot jacker who has shot more attempts than anyone this season despite less minutes than normal. A stat piler. This guy is the most overrated player in NBA history.

He's quite simply one of the most selfish players ever. Guys like Jordan and Wade WIN games when they shoot a good number of attempts, and play within the team concept while doing it. But Kobe ??

Record in games with 30+ shot attempts
Kobe Bean Bryant: 46-61 (.368)

The guy hurts his team more than any hyped star i have ever seen. And has been bailed out by superior teammates that other teams don't have. The truth is this guy has had championship caliber teammates for 85% of his career. Prime Shaq for 8 years, and now (and recently) he has a front court that have 3 players with a 20+ PER... Name me the last time a team had THREE front court players all with 20+ PER??!!!

LOOK.....

Kobe is a very good player. But he has flaws to his game that a lot of people are unwilling to accept which is shot selection and single mindedness, sometimes to the detriment of the team concept.. Guys like Jordan and Wade can adjust, kobe cannot and this is partly why he is such a poor Finals performer at just 40%.. which is HORRIBLE !! He's disappointed far too often on basketball's biggest stage, the Finals. His memorable moments in the Finals are way too far and too few in between. Wade in one Finals has as many memorable moments as kobe's finals combined. Jordan had a massive slew of memorable finals moments. But Kobe??

He's been lucky enough to be on teams that provide enough of a cushion to where he can play like that and still have success, being that he IS a talented player. However he's not the type of player that is going to get solid to good teams over the hump or overachieve with them. He is a prolific scorer - that if he gets on a hot streak, a team he's on is going to have a chance to win but he needs a very specific situation for that to work long term which he's been fortunate enough to have. His inefficiency at times, and stubbornness mean that he needs a team that's solid on the boards and in d to make up for all the times he's going to shoot poorly.

This is why Wade has outperformed Kobe every single time they've had similar supporting casts..THREE TIMES... and why Wade destroyed him in the Olympics (if you want to add a 4th)... and outperformed him with similar casts against the same competition... and head to head for that matter.

The current Lakers have the perfect scenario for how Kobe plays his selfish brand of basketball (hence trying to be the hero in game 7 in the finals shooting 6/24, and his teammates winning the game for him). They don't win because of Kobe. He is obviously a factor in their success but they win primarily because they have 7 footers that no one can deal with on a regular basis. These 7 footers provide interior intimidation on defense, get a ridiculous amt of offensive boards which are KILLERS to teams and are all incredibly mobile and versatile. That is a lot to overcome regardless of who your starting SG is. In addition, along with all of that they have a player in Artest who may be challenged offensively but is going to take on the defensive load which helps Kobe conserve energy tremendously. The game has traditionally been about interior play and the Lakers have an overload of it.

The Lakers have 3 front court players that each have a 20+ PER.. Tell me another team in NBA history that had that on one team? Teams in the west don't fear Kobe Bryant, they fear that front court -- why OKC and Dallas loaded up on frontcourt players this year.

So Kobe's had the perfect mixture of talent on his team and luck. These two things plus playing style lead to him being as overrated as he is. Great player, but not close to what the hype suggests. I can show a lot more to discredit Kobe's rank but I'll stop for now.

But I just have to laugh at the hate people here show for the Heat and their players. when Kobe has been FAR more immature and selfish than any of the 3 in Miami have ever shown. Not to mention Kobe asked to be traded from LA after Shaq left when he couldnt win, to do guess what, to go on another team to play with some stars.

[SwayDizzle]

OP is a certified *******

Solid Snake..... nice :cheers:
used to be my favorite game on the PS.

[Rasheed1]

funny that kobe fans dont understand the term TEAM.

they laugh at Lebron playing team ball, distributing, rebounding playing great defense and getting the ball to Wade because he had the hot hand..

:facepalm kobe fans


they dont even understand the game! its a shame.

Listen up! passing the ball and deferring to the hot player when it isnt you does not make you weak. It makes your team win and builds trust in your teammates..

Lakers looked a mess when they got swept by this same Dallas team...

SWEPT

maybe there is a reason for that....

[pegasus]

Wade really made Lebron his b!tch with those comments in the press conference. Too bad they didn't show Lebron's face as Wade said "I'm the leader, and my guys followed me." :lol

I bet Lebron will try to take over game 4 in the first quarter, but will only mess up their team play.

[Rasheed1]

Wade & Lebron really made lebron haters their b!tch with those comments in the press conference. Too bad they didn't show Lebron's face as Wade said "we win again." :lol

If he was Kobe, he would try to take over game 4 in the first quarter, but will only mess up their team play.


fixed

[glidedrxlr22]

Solid Snake..... nice :cheers:
used to be my favorite game on the PS.
:rockon:

[BallsOut]

:bowdown:

[Heat007]

The alpha giant has risen to rage and wage his fury and wrath upon the undesirables !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaJnvM8MLpo



I predicted it all along and said, this would happen at "the end"

[Marv_Albert]

per Yahoo sports...

good job Lebron following your leader

who got them here?

[konex]

Dan LeBatard had a good point today. Bron's been carrying Wade all year and never once went in front of the cameras talking about how he led anyone. That was despicable of Wade IMO

[bl2k8]

Dan LeBatard had a good point today. Bron's been carrying Wade all year and never once went in front of the cameras talking about how he led anyone. That was despicable of Wade IMO
Nobody carried anyone during the regular season

[pegasus]

Dan LeBatard had a good point today. Bron's been carrying Wade all year and never once went in front of the cameras talking about how he led anyone. That was despicable of Wade IMO

Except for the first month, Wade was just as good, if not better, in the regular season. Plus, Lebron said some stuff about being his team's leader, too. Did you guys forget that he said he and HIS soldiers were at war?

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Lebron has been by far the best player on that team all year. For Wade to say those comments now is rediculous IMO. Wade had an amazing game. Where was Wade in the Bulls series? Did Lebron say comments like that after game 2,3,4,5 of the Bulls series?

[konex]

Lebron has been by far the best player on that team all year. For Wade to say those comments now is rediculous IMO. Wade had an amazing game. Where was Wade in the Bulls series? Did Lebron say comments like that after game 2,3,4,5 of the Bulls series?

Yeah why wasn't wade leading in the bulls series. What a tool he is

[KOLBCTEW]

Yeah why wasn't wade leading in the bulls series. What a tool he is
Might not have led but he showed up in the clutch when it mattered and helped them get the victory..

[jrong]

Dan LeBatard had a good point today. Bron's been carrying Wade all year and never once went in front of the cameras talking about how he led anyone. That was despicable of Wade IMO

My theory is he's trying to light a fire under LeBron. It's his way of leading, motivating. He's used psychological warfare through the press to motivate Bosh before. But, regardless of who the better player is though, Wade is the heartbeat of this team. He even stepped up to became an enforcer this year, the designated retaliator for cheapshots against his teammates.

This current version of Wade does have an argument for best player in the world, but set aside the question of who's better, and this is no slight to LBJ, Wade is unquestionably the leader here.

[Jacks3]

Wade is a piece of shit loser. Dude has been James side-kick for the reg season AND post-season and now he wants to act like he's the leader when he's been outplayed ALL YEAR. Clown. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

This current version of Wade does have an argument for best player in the world,
Best player when he hasn't even been the best player on his own team in the reg season and post-season? :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Yeah why wasn't wade leading in the bulls series. What a tool he is
This. Wade was horrible that series. He was straight-up carried by LeBron.

[PJR]

Wade is a piece of shit loser. Dude has been James side-kick for the reg season AND post-season and now he wants to act like he's the leader when he's been outplayed ALL YEAR. Clown. :oldlol:

lol @ this dude. Seriously get a life. Their numbers are pratically negligible.

[KOLBCTEW]

Best player when he hasn't even been the best player on his own team in the reg season and post-season? :oldlol:
Gap has been virtually negligible..
This. Wade was horrible that series. He was straight-up carried by LeBron.
While Wade wasn't good that series he still made clutch shots that secured victories in that series..
lol @ this dude. Seriously get a life. Their numbers are pratically negligible.
Seems to take pleasure in disparaging Wade any chance he gets.

[Knoe Itawl]

:oldlol: these clowns are going to absurd lengths to make things out of what's not there.

[Jacks3]

lol @ this dude. Seriously get a life. Their numbers are pratically negligible.
:oldlol:

No, they're not. LeBron has the lead in every single stat.

[Jacks3]

Gap has been virtually negligible..
Again, how so? LeBron was CLEARLY better in the reg season. LeBron has CLEARLY better in the post-season.

While Wade wasn't good that series he still made clutch shots that secured victories in that series..
He wasn't just "not good". He was straight-up AWFUL. Historically bad. 19 PPG on under 50% TS with 5 TOV per game. :oldlol:

[PJR]

:oldlol:

No, they're not. LeBron has the lead in every single stat.


Ya. And we're literally talking fractions here in each of those categories. Why does Wade having individual success bother you so much? You seem so upset. I think you need a hug.

[KOLBCTEW]

Again, how so? LeBron was CLEARLY better in the reg season.As I said, the gap is virtually negligible.
Lebron averages only 1.2 points more per game and is shooting a slightly better percentage.



LeBron has CLEARLY better in the post-season.
Wade is shooting a better percentage in these playoffs while Lebron only has 8 more points than Wade total. So while Lebron has been more consistent overall, Wade has had higher peaks and lower troughs.


He wasn't just "not good". He was straight-up AWFUL. Historically bad. 19 PPG on under 50% TS with 5 TOV per game. :oldlol:
Historically bad.. no, Kobe played even worse against Houston shooting 38% and this was into his prime.

[Jacks3]

Ya. And we're literally talking fractions here in each of those categories. Why does Wade having individual success bother you so much? You seem so upset. I think you need a hug.
The fact remains, LeBron has been better in both the reg season and post-season and it's not even arguable.

Wade having individual success doesn't bother me at all. He's having a great Finals. Doesn't change the fact that LeBron has thoroughly out-played him all year.

[KOLBCTEW]

:oldlol:

No, they're not. LeBron has the lead in every single stat.
No.. Wade averages more blocks and fewer turnovers for the season.
Ya. And we're literally talking fractions here in each of those categories. Why does Wade having individual success bother you so much? You seem so upset. I think you need a hug.
He's a Kobe fan threatened by Wade being a SG. Another poster brought something similar up: Laker fans are generally in a confused state right now. Some hate on Bron to prop up Wade, Some hate on Wade to prop up Bron and some hate them both and constantly remind us of 5 championship rings.

[DMAVS41]

Its not hard people:

Lebron has been the best player on the Heat up to this point in the year. That includes these three finals games, all the playoffs, and the regular season.

Lebron has been slightly better, but he's been better. Thats just a fact.


Wade is clearly the leader of this team. Also just a fact. There is no disputing this. Lebron looks up to Wade. He views him as not better, but more experienced and more wise.


The truth is that these guys are best friends and honestly act and play like they could care less about who gets the most credit. Lebron goes nuts when Wade makes a great play and Wade does the same for Lebron. There are absolutely no ego issues here. No matter how hard the media tries its a total non story at this point.

[Jacks3]

As I said, the gap is virtually negligible.
Lebron averages only 1.2 points more per game and is shooting a slightly better percentage.
But it's not negligible. There's a clear advantage towards LeBron.

LBJ: 27/8/7/2/1/59% TS
Wade: 26/6/5/2/1/58% TS

LBJ also had much better clutch time production, and was a better defender.

He beats Wade literally everywhere. Frankly, it's not close.


Wade is shooting a better percentage in these playoffs while Lebron only has 8 more points than Wade total. So while Lebron has been more consistent overall, Wade has had higher peaks and lower troughs.
Sorry, LBJ has been easily superior again.

LBJ: 25/9/6/2/58% TS
Wade: 25/7/4/2/57% TS

LeBron beats in him every single category and has been the better defender again. His clutch time production has also been better.

There's literally nothing Wade has on LeBron in either the post-season or reg season.

Scoring? LeBron
Passing/play-making? LeBron
Rebouding? LeBron
Defense? LeBron
Clutch play? LeBron

Wade has been the side-kick.




Historically bad.. no, Kobe played even worse against Houston shooting 38% and this was into his prime.
What series against Houstion are you taking about? Whatever it is, it doesn't change the fact that Wade had a historically bad series.

19 PPG on under 50% TS with 5 TOV per game is just epically bad from a top 5 player.

[Jacks3]

No.. Wade averages more blocks and fewer turnovers for the season.
And Lebron has the lead in PPG/APG/RPG/SPG/TS%, played better better defense all year, and kills Wade in clutch-time production. Not close.

He's a Kobe fan threatened by Wade being a SG.
No. I just don't like overrated, pathetic floppers like Wade.

[Ne 1]

And Lebron has the lead in PPG/APG/RPG/SPG/TS%, played better better defense all year, and kills Wade in clutch-time production. Not close.

No. I just don't like overrated, pathetic floppers like Wade.

Poor Wade. Can't even shoot past 15 feet. :facepalm

[Jacks3]

Poor Wade. Can't even shoot past 15 feet. :facepalm
Even LeBron has been a much better mid-range shooter than this clown. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Even LeBron has been a much better mid-range shooter than this clown. :oldlol:

You lose your cred when you call one of the best players of all time a clown.

Just make your arguments and supply the data/evidence like you have.

You have won the debate. Lebron has been the best Heat player this season. Anyone that has watched the games or looked at the stats knows this.

However, the gap is not huge and you lose any credibility you have by pretending that Wade is over-rated or sucks.

[KOLBCTEW]

But it's not negligible. There's a clear advantage towards LeBron.

LBJ: 27/8/7/2/1/59% TS
Wade: 26/6/5/2/1/58% TS.
Didn't say there wasn't a clear advantage, said that advantage is negligible..


LBJ also had much better clutch time production, .
Clutch is relative.


He beats Wade literally everywhere. Frankly, it's not close..
Not everywhere.


Sorry, LBJ has been easily superior again.

LBJ: 25/9/6/2/58% TS
Wade: 25/7/4/2/57% TSNot really, plus TS again.. It's a flawed stat that can use FT's to prop up a players game even if he had a terrible shooting performance from the field..



LeBron beats in him every single category ..
No he doesn't...



His clutch time production has also been better...
Relative.



Scoring? LeBron
Passing/play-making? LeBron
Rebouding? LeBron
Defense? LeBron
Clutch play? LeBron...
Much of those the difference is neglible..


Wade has been the side-kick..A sidekick doesn't outperform the amount of games Wade has outperformed Lebron.






What series against Houstion are you taking about? Whatever it is, it doesn't change the fact that Wade had a historically bad series.

19 PPG on under 50% TS with 5 TOV per game is just epically bad from a top 5 player.
03-04 series..
38% shooting is colossally bad for arguably a top 10 player all time..
And Lebron has the lead in PPG/APG/RPG/SPG/TS%, played better better defense all year, and kills Wade in clutch-time production. Not close.
A negligible lead and clutch is relative.


No. I just don't like overrated, pathetic floppers like Wade.
He's actually underrated.

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You lose your cred when you call one of the best players of all time a clown.
Uh, not really. He can be a clown as a person (which he is) and still be one of the best ever.





However, the gap is not huge and you lose any credibility you have by pretending that Wade is over-rated or sucks.
:oldlol:

Yes, Wade is overrated. Yes, the gap might not be huge, but it is clear.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE]
Uh, not really. He can be a clown as a person (which he is) and still be one of the best ever.





:oldlol:

Yes, Wade is overrated. Yes, the gap might not be huge, but it is clear.

How is Wade over-rated?

He didn't make first team all nba. He didn't get voted to either all defensive team.

Lebron got 20 times more MVP points.

Over-rated? What?

Wade is grossly under-rated....he's just now starting to get his credit only because Lebron haters are using him to bring down Lebron.

LOL......don't join in and become just as bad please.

[King Lebron LBJ]

:facepalm both Wade and Dirk are mega underrated on here.

[Jacks3]

Didn't say there wasn't a clear advantage, said that advantage is negligible..
As long as you agree there's been a clear advantage for Bron.


Clutch is relative.
Of course a Wade fan would say. But whoever you define it, LeBron has been superior.


Not everywhere.
Well, in pretty much every single area.




No he doesn't...
I'm sorry, I should have said he decisively beats him in the most important areas.




A sidekick doesn't outperform the amount of games Wade has outperformed Lebron.


Guess we have different definitions. When one guy has been easily better than the other in literally almost every area of the game, while also being better defensively and being the best clutch player, the other is a side-kick.



03-04 series..
38% shooting is colossally bad for arguably a top 10 player all time..
Too bad 03-04 isn't a prime Kobe season. And it doesn't change the fact that Wade was epically bad in the ECF. 19 PPG on under 50% TS with 5 TOV per game.



He's actually underrated.
Too you. I say he's overrated.

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]

How is Wade over-rated?

He didn't make first team all nba. He didn't get voted to either all defensive team.

Lebron got 20 times more MVP points.

Over-rated? What?

Wade is grossly under-rated....he's just now starting to get his credit only because Lebron haters are using him to bring down Lebron.

LOL......don't join in and become just as bad please.
Most people think he's the 2nd best player in the league. To me that makes him overrated. I think both Dirk and Dwight are better players. Wade being grossly underrated is laughable.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Most people think he's the 2nd best player in the league. To me that makes him overrated. I think both Dirk and Dwight are better players. Wade being grossly underrated is laughable.

What?

Wade is at worst the 4th best player in the league. At worst.

You are hilarious. The 4th best player in the league doesn't get all NBA? He gets no respect in the MVP voting? Doesn't get recognized for his great defense?

And he's over-rated?

What do you think Kobe is then? Kobe would be the most over-rated player of all time. Dude gets more credit than Wade and is currently about 70% as good.

LOL

Dirk and Wade are probably the two most under-rated players in the league over the last few years. Its disgusting how over looked they've been.

[Ne 1]

What do you think Kobe is then? Kobe would be the most over-rated player of all time. Dude gets more credit than Wade and is currently about 70% as good.

Wade is slightly better than a past his prime, 15th year in the league, 32 year old, riddled with injuries version of Kobe.

[Bring-Your-Js]

As I said, the gap is virtually negligible.
Lebron averages only 1.2 points more per game and is shooting a slightly better percentage.


Wade is shooting a better percentage in these playoffs while Lebron only has 8 more points than Wade total. So while Lebron has been more consistent overall, Wade has had higher peaks and lower troughs.

Historically bad.. no, Kobe played even worse against Houston shooting 38% and this was into his prime.

Houston?

Kobe's shot 38% in two separate NBA FINALS. And a hair or two above 40% in three others. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Wade is slightly better than a past his prime, 15th year in the league, 32 year old, riddled with injuries version of Kobe.

Slightly?

He's torching the same team that Kobe couldn't do anything against offensively. Defensively Kobe couldn't keep up with the Mavs perimeter players. Wade is locking them all down.

Slightly?

LOL

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]

What?

Wade is at worst the 4th best player in the league. At worst.

You are hilarious. The 4th best player in the league doesn't get all NBA? He gets no respect in the MVP voting? Doesn't get recognized for his great defense?

And he's over-rated?

What do you think Kobe is then? Kobe would be the most over-rated player of all time. Dude gets more credit than Wade and is currently about 70% as good.

LOL

Dirk and Wade are probably the two most under-rated players in the league over the last few years. Its disgusting how over looked they've been.
Read my post. Most people have him as the 2nd best in the league. That makes him overrated to me because Dirk and Dwight are better. I could care less about All-NBA Teams and the like. And no, he's not a great defender. And no, his MVP recognition was fine. He's clearly not as valuable as the other guys because he was James side-kick in the reg season while others were clear #1 options. As for Kobe, he has nothing to do with this.

[Dwade305]

Wade is slightly better than a past his prime, 15th year in the league, 32 year old, riddled with injuries version of Kobe.
You've said that around 20 times today kid, you sound mad insecure:oldlol:

Like always Gino owning these clowns

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Read my post. Most people have him as the 2nd best in the league. That makes him overrated to me because Dirk and Dwight are better. I could care less about All-NBA Teams and the like. And no, he's not a great defender. And no, his MVP recognition was fine. He's clearly not as valuable as the other guys because he was James side-kick in the reg season while others were clear #1 options. As for Kobe, he has nothing to do with this.

Its debatable.

I'm the biggest Dirk fan in the world, but its very close between him and Wade. Before the playoffs started I would have taken Wade for sure. Howard is also debatable.

You act like ranking Wade 2nd is a joke or something. I personally have Howard 2nd and Dirk 3rd overall so far this year, but its extremely close.

And again, Wade is at worst the 4th best player in the game.

The gap between him and Lebron this year has been small. Not nearly as big as the media has projected until the Finals.

[Jacks3]

Wade is slightly better than a past his prime, 15th year in the league, 32 year old, riddled with injuries version of Kobe.
True. Current 15th year-way past prime version of Kobe is still about 95% as good as PRIME Wade. That's just sad.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Kobe remains the much better shooter and absolutely KILLS Wade in clutch-time production. Oh,and he's obviously the #1 on his team while Wade is a side-kick.

[Jacks3]

It is a joke to me to have him at #2 when Dirk/Dwight are better and are clearly the leaders of their teams while Wade is a side-kick.

[Ne 1]

You've said that around 20 times today kid, you sound mad insecure:oldlol:

Like always Gino owning these clowns

Sorry.....guess the truth hurts.

Like always can't even make an argument for yourself so you pat Gino on the back because you agree with him.

[DMAVS41]

True. Current 15th year-way past prime version of Kobe is still about 95% as good as PRIME Wade. That's just sad.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Kobe remains the much better shooter and absolutely KILLS Wade in clutch-time production. Oh,and he's obviously the #1 on his team while Wade is a side-kick.

Is this a joke?

Wade is currently facing the same ****ing team Kobe got swept by.

The level of play and impact difference is staggering. 70% at best for Kobe. At best.

Its clear now. You are a Kobe stan trying to prop up Lebron to hold down Wade.

LOL....should have known. 95%....you are ****ing high man.

[Ne 1]

Slightly?

He's torching the same team that Kobe couldn't do anything against offensively. Defensively Kobe couldn't keep up with the Mavs perimeter players. Wade is locking them all down.

Slightly?

LOL

Yes, slightly better based on their overall production this season. Kobe played fine in the playoffs.....he played up to his regular season standards this, while Pau was on his menstrual cycle. Kobe and Bynum where the only two Lakers that showed up in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, slightly better based on their overall production this season. Kobe played fine in the playoffs.....he played up to his regular season standards this, while Pau was on his menstrual cycle. Kobe and Bynum where the only two Lakers that showed up in the playoffs.

Wade is literally better in all aspects of the game now.

His defense is significantly better and you are seeing what Wade is doing right now against similar competition.

Which is the running theme for their entire careers. When Kobe and Wade play similar competition......Wade leaves no doubt who the better player is.

Just like this series is proving. Kobe "non factor" Bryant is about 70% as good as Wade is right now.

Hopefully the long summer will help Kobe for next year.

[Jacks3]

Is this a joke?

Wade is currently facing the same ****ing team Kobe got swept by.

The level of play and impact difference is staggering. 70% at best for Kobe. At best.

Its clear now. You are a Kobe stan trying to prop up Lebron to hold down Wade.

LOL....should have known. 95%....you are ****ing high man.
Too bad it's a totally different situation in regards to their series.

Kobe: 15th year, 33-yrs old, coming off back-to-back-to-back Finals, playing on a severely sprained ankle, played more games than anybody in the league over past 3 seasons

Wade: 8th year, 29 yrs old, hasn't had extended post-season since 2006, playing in his absolute prime.

Anyway, to me, player A having a much better series than player B against the same team doesn't make player A a much better player.

An 82-game sample size is much more revealing.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say he's damn close to Wade.

[DMAVS41]

Too bad it's a totally different situation in regards to their series.

Kobe: 15th year, 33-yrs old, coming off back-to-back-to-back Finals, playing on a severely sprained ankle, played more games than anybody in the league over past 3 seasons

Wade: 8th year, 29 yrs old, hasn't had extended post-season since 2006, playing in his absolute prime.

Anyway, to me, player A having a much better series than player B against the same team doesn't make player A a much better player.

An 82-game sample size is much more revealing.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say he's damn close to Wade.

His age and injuries are part of the reason. That is a big reason why Wade is better.

LOL at using them as an excuse and then saying its close. The fact that Kobe played less minutes is another reason.

And how about we look at what matters. Playoffs:

Kobe - 23 points 3 boards 3 assists 54% TS 20.7 PER

Wade - 25 points 7 boards 4 assists 57% TS 26.4 PER
:facepalm

[Ne 1]

Wade is literally better in all aspects of the game now.

They are close. Certainly debatable, but I give the slight edge to Wade though.


His defense is significantly better and you are seeing what Wade is doing right now against similar competition.

Wade has been more consistent defensively, that is true.




Which is the running theme for their entire careers. When Kobe and Wade play similar competition......Wade leaves no doubt who the better player is.


Not true.


Just like this series is proving. Kobe "non factor" Bryant is about 70% as good as Wade is right now.

Cute.


Hopefully the long summer will help Kobe for next year.

Yeah, he defiantly needs the rest. 3 straight Finals runs, the Olympics, knee surgeries etc.

[Jacks3]

His age and injuries are part of the reason. That is a big reason why Wade is better.

LOL at using them as an excuse and then saying its close. The fact that Kobe played less minutes is another reason.

And how about we look at what matters. Playoffs:

Kobe - 23 points 3 boards 3 assists 54% TS 20.7 PER

Wade - 25 points 7 boards 4 assists 57% TS 26.4 PER
:facepalm

But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

Using a fair measurement, the 82 game sample size, we get this:

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say he's damn close to Wade.

Of course, I have no doubt that 2011 Kobe in the same situation as Wade (no extended playoff run since 2006, play with LeBron AND WADE, no injuries dude to all those extra games) would have had little trouble putting up around 25/5/5/56% TS. Especially with the best player in the league taking pressure off him.

[DMAVS41]

But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

Using a fair measurement, the 82 game sample size, we get this:

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say he's damn close to Wade.

Of course, I have no doubt that 2011 Kobe in the same situation as Wade (no extended playoff run since 2006, play with LeBron AND WADE, no injuries dude to all those extra games) would have had little trouble putting up around 25/5/5/56% TS. Especially with the best player in the league taking pressure off him.

You aren't factoring in defense. Kobe is now a liability. Wade is one of the best sg defenders in the league.

And again, the playoffs is what matters. Regular season means very little to me......and Kobe would tell you the exact same thing.

If you factor in the regular season and the playoffs.....and defense....there is absolutely no way you get to the conclusion that Kobe is 95% as good as Wade.

No freaking way.

[YAWN]

that mavs fans hate for kobe has turned him away from rooting for his own team to propping up the heats players :oldlol:

mad dedication.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

You aren't factoring in defense. Kobe is now a liability. Wade is one of the best sg defenders in the league.

And again, the playoffs is what matters. Regular season means very little to me......and Kobe would tell you the exact same thing.

If you factor in the regular season and the playoffs.....and defense....there is absolutely no way you get to the conclusion that Kobe is 95% as good as Wade.

No freaking way.

how did you come to this conclusion? in how many playoffs series has Wade been since 2006?

1st round 2011...who he guarded..jodi meeks???
2nd round 2011...Ray Allen? ok here good defense
3rd round 2011...K Bogans...lol you kidding me right? maybe some Rose but Lebron was guarding Rose when it mattered most

Championship finals...Stevenson...LOL...

your comparison is week...go try to find another argument...you remind me og the poster ginobli...who tried to be very smart but his hate for Kobe was over the top and it revealed in his posts...same thing goes with you...

you my friend are a joke

[Jacks3]

\
You aren't factoring in defense. Kobe is now a liability. Wade is one of the best sg defenders in the league.

And again, the playoffs is what matters. Regular season means very little to me......and Kobe would tell you the exact same thing.

If you factor in the regular season and the playoffs.....and defense....there is absolutely no way you get to the conclusion that Kobe is 95% as good as Wade.

No freaking way.
Kobe being a liability is far from the truth. That is just laughable. The Lakers had the best SG% defense in the league this year--held SG's to 39.6%. Kobe had a very good defensive PER. His NET production allowed is elite. His ezPM
is 3rd among all guards(tracked by a RealGM poster). Both are among the best defenders at the position.

I already addressed the playoffs question:
But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

Factoring in Kobe's similar numbers, much better clutch production, being the #1 on his team instead of side-kick, being a better isolation player, and similar defense and yeah he's about 95% as good.

[DMAVS41]

that mavs fans hate for kobe has turned him away from rooting for his own team to propping up the heats players :oldlol:

mad dedication.

What?

I love how the measure of what kind of fan you are is based on how much of a biased homer you are.

I can assure you I still badly want my Mavs to win. I just realize I have no control over the games.

I am satisfied that the consolation of my team is losing is that Lebron/Wade haters will have to shut the **** up for a while.

That will be nice.

[Jacks3]

how did you come to this conclusion? in how many playoffs series has Wade been since 2006?

1st round 2011...who he guarded..jodi meeks???
2nd round 2011...Ray Allen? ok here good defense
3rd round 2011...K Bogans...lol you kidding me right? maybe some Rose but Lebron was guarding Rose when it mattered most

Championship finals...Stevenson...LOL...

your comparison is week...go try to find another argument...you remind me og the poster ginobli...who tried to be very smart but his hate for Kobe was over the top and it revealed in his posts...same thing goes with you...

you my friend are a joke
What's funny is that Wade was torched by Ray Allen in the 2011 ECSF:

17 PPG on 62%! TS.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

What?

I love how the measure of what kind of fan you are is based on how much of a biased homer you are.

I can assure you I still badly want my Mavs to win. I just realize I have no control over the games.

I am satisfied that the consolation of my team is losing is that Lebron/Wade haters will have to shut the **** up for a while.

That will be nice.

mentality of the Mavs organization and its fanbase...nothing new..lol

[DMAVS41]

\
Kobe being a liability is far from the truth. That is just laughable. The Lakers had the best SG% defense in the league this year--held SG's to 39.6%. Kobe had a very good defensive PER. His NET production allowed is elite. His ezPM
is 3rd among all guards(tracked by a RealGM poster). Both are among the best defenders at the position.

I already addressed the playoffs question:
But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

Factoring in Kobe's similar numbers, much better clutch production, being the #1 on his team instead of side-kick, being a better isolation player, and similar defense and yeah he's about 95% as good.

Wade is simply a better defender. All the data shows this.

And playoff production matters. A lot actually. A lot more than regular season production.

Something you clearly can't grasp. 95% is a joke. Everyone knows this.

Like I said, its clear that you are a Kobe stan that is trying to prop up Lebron to hold back Wade.

Its hilarious. You can't just ignore the playoffs altogether.

Regular season? Wade easily better. Better numbers, better defense, more team success.

Payoffs? Wade easily better. Much better numbers, better defense, more team success.

The kicker? Play against similar competition hugely favors wade.

Kobe is around 70% Wade when you take everything into account.

If you break it down he was about 85% as good in the regular season and about 60% as good in the playoffs. Playoffs matter more to me than you I guess.

[DMAVS41]

mentality of the Mavs organization and its fanbase...nothing new..lol

What?

I really hope you realize that you have nothing to do with your team. Its shocking how many people here think they have any control whatsoever on what happens.

I simply react to what happens. I don't pretend I'm part of the team.

Damn...thats pathetic. I feel sorry for people that haven't made peace with that.

Wow.

[KOLBCTEW]

Too bad 03-04 isn't a prime Kobe season.
:oldlol: Eight years already in the league and he still wasn't in his prime(I guess Wade isn't in his prime yet either..). He was already entering his prime during the latter part of the Shaq years.



And it doesn't change the fact that Wade was epically bad in the ECF. 19 PPG on under 50% TS with 5 TOV per game.
How does that change the fact that Kobe was even worse..

[Jacks3]

Wade is simply a better defender. All the data shows this.

And playoff production matters. A lot actually. A lot more than regular season production.

Something you clearly can't grasp. 95% is a joke. Everyone knows this.

Like I said, its clear that you are a Kobe stan that is trying to prop up Lebron to hold back Wade.

Its hilarious. You can't just ignore the playoffs altogether.

Regular season? Wade easily better. Better numbers, better defense, more team success.

Payoffs? Wade easily better. Much better numbers, better defense, more team success.

The kicker? Play against similar competition hugely favors wade.

Kobe is around 70% Wade when you take everything into account.

If you break it down he was about 85% as good in the regular season and about 60% as good in the playoffs. Playoffs matter more to me than you I guess.
You thinking Wade is a better defender doesn't excuse the fact that Kobe is still elite. The Lakers had the best SG% defense in the league this year--held SG's to 39.6%. Kobe had a very good defensive PER. His NET production allowed is elite. His ezPM is 3rd among all guards(tracked by a RealGM poster).

I'm not propping up anybody. I'm just talking facts.

I already addressed the playoffs question:
But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

Factoring in Kobe's similar numbers, much better clutch production, being the #1 on his team instead of side-kick, being a better isolation player, and similar defense and yeah he's about 95% as good.

[Ne 1]

\
Kobe being a liability is far from the truth. That is just laughable. The Lakers had the best SG% defense in the league this year--held SG's to 39.6%. Kobe had a very good defensive PER. His NET production allowed is elite. His ezPM
is 3rd among all guards(tracked by a RealGM poster). Both are among the best defenders at the position.

I already addressed the playoffs question:
But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

Factoring in Kobe's similar numbers, much better clutch production, being the #1 on his team instead of side-kick, being a better isolation player, and similar defense and yeah he's about 95% as good.

:bowdown:


Jacks3 destroys 'em again with facts and logic, but of course they resort to their opinionated misconceptions. The sad part is though even when they get blasted with facts they still continue to manipulate and spread complete falsehoods.

[DMAVS41]

You thinking Wade is a better defender doesn't excuse the fact that Kobe is still elite. The Lakers had the best SG% defense in the league this year--held SG's to 39.6%. Kobe had a very good defensive PER. His NET production allowed is elite. His ezPM is 3rd among all guards(tracked by a RealGM poster).

I'm not propping up anybody. I'm just talking facts.

I already addressed the playoffs question:
But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

15th year/Way past prime Kobe: 25/5/5/55% TS in only 34 MPG

Absolute prime Wade: 26/6/5/58% TS in 37 MPG

Amazingly, Kobe was also the best isolation scorer in the league in 2011, had far better clutch-time production than Wade and was obviously the clear #1 on his team while Wade was a side-kick.

Factoring in Kobe's similar numbers, much better clutch production, being the #1 on his team instead of side-kick, being a better isolation player, and similar defense and yeah he's about 95% as good.

You aren't factoring in playoffs.....like at all.

Answer me this.

What percentage was Kobe as good as Wade in the playoffs?

[DMAVS41]

:bowdown:


Jacks3 destroys 'em again with facts and logic, but of course they resort to their opinionated misconceptions. The sad part is though even when they get blasted with facts they still continue to manipulate and spread complete falsehoods.


Where is Kobe on this factual list?

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/04/11/the-nbas-top-defenders-in-2011/

The eye-test and your "facts and logic" all support Wade as the superior player in the regular season.

The playoffs was not even remotely close.

Just like Wade vs Kobe now....not even remotely close.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: Eight years already in the league and he still wasn't in his prime(I guess Wade isn't in his prime yet either..). He was already entering his prime during the latter part of the Shaq years.
He wasn't himself mentally or physically that season due to the rape trial. Seriously, look how skinny and off he looked that season compared to 01-03. Nobody considers 03-04 a prime Kobe season. It was a lot like 07-08 Wade actually. They may been at a prime age, but injuries held them back. It's not a coincidence that Kobe's play in 2004 was A LOT worse than it was in 2002-2003.

Here are Kobe's "prime" seasons
2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 208, 2009


How does that change the fact that Kobe was even worse..
I doubt it. Either way, 19 PPG on under 50% TS with 5 TOV per game is just pathetic.

[Jacks3]

:bowdown:


Jacks3 destroys 'em again with facts and logic, but of course they resort to their opinionated misconceptions. The sad part is though even when they get blasted with facts they still continue to manipulate and spread complete falsehoods.
Yup. They continue to ignore the facts. It's sad how their hate has blinded them.

[Jacks3]

You aren't factoring in playoffs.....like at all.

Answer me this.

What percentage was Kobe as good as Wade in the playoffs?
I already addressed this.

But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

Means of comparison: 4-5 games while playing injured on a severely injured ankle or a full 82 games?

I think I'll take the 82 games.

[Ne 1]

Where is Kobe on this factual list?

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/04/11/the-nbas-top-defenders-in-2011/

The eye-test and your "facts and logic" all support Wade as the superior player in the regular season.

The playoffs was not even remotely close.

Just like Wade vs Kobe now....not even remotely close.

I'll take Jacks3 facts and unbiased logical explanation over some biased, manipulative list.

[DMAVS41]

I already addressed this.

But his age/injuries ddn't play a significant part until the Dallas series. That's when all the games played over the last 3 yrs + the injuries caught up to him. That's why u can't compare the two side-by-side.

Means of comparison: 4-5 games while playing injured on a severely injured ankle or a full 82 games?

I think I'll take the 82 games.

Answer the question.

What percentage would you assign Kobe compared to Wade this year in the playoffs?

Please answer. Don't give me reasons. Just give an answer.

[Ne 1]

He wasn't himself mentally or physically that season due to the rape trial. Seriously, look how skinny and off he looked that season compared to 01-03. Nobody considers 03-04 a prime Kobe season. It was a lot like 07-08 Wade actually. They may been at a prime age, but injuries held them back. It's not a coincidence that Kobe's play in 2004 was A LOT worse than it was in 2002-2003.


Yeah. I remember Kobe was going through the trial, flying back and forth, sometimes in the same day as a game.

[rfm767]

Never seen such homerism. All this Kobe vs Lebron nonsense, so much biasing. Kobe is fishing let him rest. The guy has nothing else to prove in his career yet he gets these ass clowns hating on his nuts thinking they can rewrite the god damn sport with a bunch of carefully selected stats? What a sad joke.

And on the other hand you have one of the greatest players on his way to a ring, getting bashed for not being THE MAN in 2 games out of a full season + 3 playoff series? Wow.

Both sides of this conversation comes up like sore losers tbh, just Wow.

[Rysio]

How does that change the fact that Kobe was even worse..
24ppg 6reb 6ast 3stl 1to 50ts%

yea much worse. :rolleyes:

[KOLBCTEW]

He wasn't himself mentally or physically that season due to the rape trial. Seriously, look how skinny and off he looked that season compared to 01-03. Nobody considers 03-04 a prime Kobe season.It's not a coincidence that Kobe's play in 2004 was A LOT worse than it was in 2002-2003..
:roll: Are you kidding me? Your gonna blame off the court issues... Wade had some off the court issues like going through a divorce and fighting for his kids yet I don't see that being used an excuse for Wade.





Here are Kobe's "prime" seasons
2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 208, 2009..
So what you just skip a couple of years and that no longer counts as him being in his prime.:oldlol: You know what I can do that as well. Wade grew up in Chicago and because he reveres his home city and gets a case of the nerves he never plays well there... Yep..That completely explains and justifies his poor performance.

[Jacks3]

Answer the question.

What percentage would you assign Kobe compared to Wade this year in the playoffs?

Please answer. Don't give me reasons. Just give an answer.
Answer these questions.

Does Player A having a much better series than Player B make him the much better overall?

Is it fair to compare a series in which one guy is in his 15th year, is way past his prime, 33 yrs old, playing on a severely injured ankle, coming off back-to-back-to back Finals while the other is 29, in the prime of his career, and hasn't had an extended post-season since 2006?

Please answer. Just give an answer.

[DMAVS41]

Answer these questions.

Does Player A having a much better series than Player B make him the much better overall?

Is it fair to compare a series in which one guy is in his 15th year, is way past his prime, 33 yrs old, playing on a severely injured ankle, coming off back-to-back-to back Finals while the other is 29, in the prime of his career, and hasn't had an extended post-season since 2006?

Please answer. Just give an answer.

Of course its not fair. Like I said, Kobe being older and hampered plays a role in why Wade is better.

It does not, however, change the fact that Wade is better.

So please give a numerical value to the difference in play between the two in the playoffs.

Fair has nothing to do with this. Nor do the reasons why one player is better than the other.

Its about the differences....not the reason for the differences.

[Jacks3]

:roll: Are you kidding me? Your gonna blame off the court issues... Wade had some off the court issues like going through a divorce and fighting for his kids yet I don't see that being used an excuse for Wade.




So what you just skip a couple of years and that no longer counts as him being in his prime.:oldlol: You know what I can do that as well. Wade grew up in Chicago and because he reveres his home city and gets a case of the nerves he never plays well there... Yep..That completely explains and justifies his poor performance.
But the fact remains that 03-04 Kobe wasn't a prime version of himself. I'm not using it as an excuse. It's just a fact. Again, how do you explain Kobe seeing such a massive decline in his play on BOTH ends compared to what we saw in 2003 or 2001?

He wasn't himself that year. NOBODY considers 03-04 as a prime Kobe year.

Just like 07-08 Wade.

[KOLBCTEW]

24ppg 6reb 6ast 3stl 1to 50ts%

yea much worse. :rolleyes:
Uh... Why are you adding words I never stated like much

And 38% shooting...

[Jacks3]

Of course its not fair. Like I said, Kobe being older and hampered plays a role in why Wade is better.

It does not, however, change the fact that Wade is better.

So please give a numerical value to the difference in play between the two in the playoffs.

Fair has nothing to do with this. Nor do the reasons why one player is better than the other.

Its about the differences....not the reason for the differences.
No, it plays a role in why Wade is better for that one series. For the reg season, Kobe was actually more injury-free/played more games. Overall, Kobe is about 95% of Wade using the best sample size: the 82 game reg season.

[Ne 1]

Jacks3 is to the Wade "stans" what AIDS was to the gay community in the 80s, a lot of dead homos.

[Jacks3]

Uh... Why are you adding words I never stated like much

And 38% shooting...
Too bad 24/6/6/1 stl/1 TOV/50% TS is much better than 19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS....And that wasn't even prime Kobe...

[DMAVS41]

No, it plays a role in why Wade is better for that one series. For the reg season, Kobe was actually more injury-free/played more games. Overall, Kobe is about 95% of Wade using the best sample size: the 82 game reg season.

No.

Do you realize that you won't answer a simple question because you know the damage your answer will do to your argument.

I totally agree that its not fair because Kobe is older and injured. But this isn't about that.

Its about how much better of a player Wade is....and the simple fact is that any player in the NBA would tell you playoff play matters more.

You know this, I know this...everyone knows this.

You won't answer because it kills your argument. You basically want the playoffs (the most important time for players) ignored.....

Weak.

[KOLBCTEW]

But the fact remains that 03-04 Kobe wasn't a prime version of himself.
How does this change the fact that technically he was already in his prime...



I'm not using it as an excuse. It's just a fact. Again, how do you explain Kobe seeing such a massive decline in his play on BOTH ends compared to what we saw in 2003 or 2001?A bad year on the court... it happens...



He wasn't himself that year. NOBODY considers 03-04 as a prime Kobe year.

Just like 07-08 Wade.
I've seen too many people hold those injury years against Wade. Injuries are legitimate excuses that have a direct effect on performance and shouldn't be held against the athlete for lack of performance. Off the court issues aren't legitimate excuses.

[Jacks3]

No.

Do you realize that you won't answer a simple question because you know the damage your answer will do to your argument.


No. I won't answer because I don't like comparing two series with wild differing context, as I have pointed out. That's it.

[KOLBCTEW]

Too bad 24/6/6/1 stl/1 TOV/50% TS is much better than 19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS....And that wasn't even prime Kobe...
Kobe had more freethrows and Kobe was in his Prime plus with TS it's counting shots people allow you to shoot instead of just factoring shots against legitimate defense.

[chazzy]

I've seen too many people hold those injury years against Wade. Injuries are legitimate excuses that have a direct effect on performance and shouldn't be held against the athlete for lack of performance. Off the court issues aren't legitimate excuses.
Kobe had knee and shoulder surgery during the 03 offseason

[DMAVS41]

No. I won't answer because I don't like comparing two series with wild differing context, as I have pointed out. That's it.

You won't answer because you know your answer destroys your statement.

Agree to disagree.

[Jacks3]

How does this change the fact that technically he was already in his prime...
03-04 isn't a prime version of Kobe though. Just like 07-08 Wade.





I've seen too many people hold those injury years against Wade. Injuries are legitimate excuses that have a direct effect on performance and shouldn't be held against the athlete for lack of performance. Off the court issues aren't legitimate excuses.
Well, I'm not one of those people. I've ALWAYS defended Wade when people attacked him for what happened in 07-08 because I know what injuries can do to a player.

[Jacks3]

You won't answer because you know your answer destroys your statement.

Agree to disagree.
No, like I said, comparing two different series with wildly different context is just silly.

But whatever.

[Ne 1]

How does this change the fact that technically he was already in his prime...

A bad year on the court... it happens...


I've seen too many people hold those injury years against Wade. Injuries are legitimate excuses that have a direct effect on performance and shouldn't be held against the athlete for lack of performance. Off the court issues aren't legitimate excuses.

Your completely ignoring the mental aspect of a basketball game. It's a lot tougher to play in a game especially at the NBA level when your dealing with that kind of stuff on your mind and flying back and fourth the same day as a game, going through a serious trial. It clearly affected his game physically and mentally and he wasn't the same player as he was last season because of it and it was clear as day.

I didn't even mention all the other distractions the Lakers had that year.

[Jacks3]

Your completely ignoring the mental aspect of a basketball game. It's a lot tougher to play in a game especially at the NBA level when your dealing with that kind of stuff on your mind and flying back and fourth the same day as a game, going through a serious trial. It clearly affected his game physically and mentally and he wasn't the same player as he was last season because of it and it was clear as day.
Yup. THIS.

[DMAVS41]

No, like I said, comparing two different series with wildly different context is just silly.

But whatever.

The context you speak of is just the reasons why Kobe was a much worse player than Wade in the playoffs this year.

The context does not change the end result.

That is what you aren't understanding. I'm not debating the reasons why Kobe played poorly in the playoffs. I'm saying that he played much worse than Wade.

I gave you my numbers....

85% regular season
60% playoffs
I'll even go up to 75% overall

You won't answer the playoffs because you know it kills your 95% statement overall.

But whatever.

[rfm767]

The context you speak of is just the reasons why Kobe was a much worse player than Wade in the playoffs this year.

The context does not change the end result.

That is what you aren't understanding. I'm not debating the reasons why Kobe played poorly in the playoffs. I'm saying that he played much worse than Wade.

I gave you my numbers....

85% regular season
60% playoffs
I'll even go up to 75% overall

You won't answer the playoffs because you know it kills your 95% statement overall.

But whatever.


You are making a persuasive question. Works wonders during trials, a good lawyer could lock up mother Teresa of Calcutta and set Osama Bin Laden free.

[Jacks3]

The context you speak of is just the reasons why Kobe was a much worse player than Wade in the playoffs this year.


No, it's the reason why he had the inferior series. Big difference.

But whatever. lol.

[DMAVS41]

No, it's the reason why he had the inferior series. Big difference.

But whatever. lol.

What? The reasons for why he played poorly have no bearing on this debate.

We aren't debating that.

We are debating on court performance. I don't care if Kobe was sick and had two bad ankles.

The reasons for good or bad play are irrelevant for this debate.

The only question is how well Kobe played....not the reasons that impact that play.

And again, you won't answer because it kills your argument. Everyone can see that but you.

You keep ignoring the playoffs for your entire argument. Thats just not logical.

[Jacks3]

What? The reasons for why he played poorly have no bearing on this debate.



.
Well, first off all he didn't play "poorly". Second, of course they have bearing.

They're the reasons he had the inferior series. Not because he's an inferior player, but because he dealing with a wildly different context.

[DMAVS41]

Well, first off all he didn't play "poorly". Second, of course they have bearing.

They're the reasons he had the inferior series. Not because he's an inferior player, but because he dealing with a wildly different context.

So then you are grading Kobe on a different curve than Wade.

You don't feel Kobe was 95% as good this year.....you feel that Kobe was 95% as good given his circumstances.

That is a completely different argument.....and one that has many counters for Wade.

Again though, the context you speak of is just a way to explain away Kobe's poor play (compared to Wade) in the playoffs.

It would be no different than me explaining away the Bulls series for Wade with saying the the chemistry issues of the Heat and the lack of shooters impacted Wade's productivity in that series.

Again, that should have no bearing on a debate concerning the overall play of two players. There are far too many variables to take into account to then come to a reasonable conclusion.

The simple fact is that anyone without a huge bias would readily admit that Wade has been much better in these playoffs than Kobe.

Your unwillingness to admit that just shows how unreasonable you are being.

[KOLBCTEW]

03-04 isn't a prime version of Kobe though. Just like 07-08 Wade. His numbers might not reflect that but he was still in his prime.. Just like that wasn't the Prime version of Wade in the Bulls Series but he is still in his prime..

Wade was suffering from physical injuries that directly affected his playing ability... Kobe wasn't suffering from debilitating injuries..

Your completely ignoring the mental aspect of a basketball game. It's a lot tougher to play in a game especially at the NBA level when your dealing with that kind of stuff on your mind and flying back and fourth the same day as a game, going through a serious trial. It clearly affected his game physically and mentally and he wasn't the same player as he was last season because of it and it was clear as day.

I didn't even mention all the other distractions the Lakers had that year.
Really.. then why wasn't Wade affected when his marriage was crumbling and his wife was making false accusations and he ran the risk of losing his kids..

Why didn't Wade and Lebron succomb to all the distractions this year given they were the arguably the most scrutanized team Ever assembled in all of sports having to deal with the constant media barrage.

[Jacks3]

So then you are grading Kobe on a different curve than Wade.




No, I'm comparing them based on a sample size (82 games) that's far more telling than a single 4 game series with very different context.

[DMAVS41]

No, I'm comparing them based on a sample size (82 games) that's far more telling than a single 4 game series with very different context.

Kobe played 10 games in the playoffs.

And those 10 games are the most important of the season.

So you are ignoring the most important part of the year fully because you don't like the results.....

Its bad logic.

You have to look at everything. You simply can't throw out the playoffs. Especially when a huge part of the reason why Kobe has a smaller sample size in the playoffs is because of his poor play compared to Wade.

Thats just as weak as it gets.

[Jacks3]

His numbers might not reflect that but he was still in his prime..
You have it backwards. His numbers don't reflect prime play because he wasn't in his prime. Again, it's not just one series. Again, Kobe saw a massive drop-off in his play that entire year compared to 2001 and 2003. How else do you explain this? Because it wasn't a prime year.

[Jacks3]

Kobe played 10 games in the playoffs.

And those 10 games are the most important of the season.


Yeah, too bad a 82 game season is much more indicative than those games with wildly different context compared to Wade.

[Ne 1]

Wade was suffering from physical injuries that directly affected his playing ability... Kobe wasn't suffering from debilitating injuries..



Kobe was also dealing with injuries that year that directly affected his playing ability. Also Wade wasn't flying back and fourth from trials and having to play in games the same day. A custody hearing is a whole lot different from going through a rape trail, losing all your sponsors, wondering if your going to lose your freedom, your wife, your family, your basketball career etc. while dealing with the scrutiny and allegations of a heinous crime. I don't even know how anyone can play in a professional basketball game at a high level while going through all that stuff.

[chazzy]

Wade was suffering from physical injuries that directly affected his playing ability... Kobe wasn't suffering from debilitating injuries..
Again, he had two surgeries in the previous offseason and had recurring problems with his shoulder throughout the year. It's not like he was healthy and just had an off shooting year.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, too bad a 82 game season is much more indicative than those games with wildly different context compared to Wade.

Dude. The context is not relevant. Its about comparing Wade this year to Kobe in terms of what actually happened. As you get older your body breaks down. Its part of the nature of the game.

You simply can't make a statement that Kobe is 95% as good as Wade and then use injuries as an excuse as to why Kobe wasn't nearly that close to Wade when it mattered most.

You are basically claiming that age/injuries did impact Kobe's play, but you want that play thrown out in a comparison.

Wade is more than 5% better than Kobe just based off age/injuries alone right now.

You keep refusing to answer my question. So I will ask another one.

When you are looking at a players' overall year.....

How much emphasis do you give to regular season play compared to playoff play? Is it 80% regular season and 20% playoffs? Give me a percentage breakdown.

[Ne 1]

Again, he had two surgeries in the previous offseason and had recurring problems with his shoulder throughout the year. It's not like he was healthy and just had an off shooting year.

That and he had to constantly wonder if his life was going to be completely ruined.

[Jacks3]

Dude. The context is not relevant. Its about comparing Wade this year to Kobe in terms of what actually happened. As you get older your body breaks down. Its part of the nature of the game.



Yes, it is relevant. The context matters because it didn't really impact Kobe until the Dallas series and using 4 games when said player is dealing with said circumstances is silly. No, it's fairer to use a full 82- game season where both players weren't dealing with troublesome circumstances.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, it is relevant. The context matters because it didn't really impact Kobe until the Dallas series and using 4 games when said player is dealing with said circumstances is silly. No, it's fairer to use a full 82- game season where both players weren't dealing with troublesome circumstances.

When evaluating a players' year, how much importance do you place on regular season and the playoffs.

Please give me a percentage breakdown.

If you aren't willing to answer this question it simply means you aren't willing to have a reasonable debate.

Does the regular season or playoffs matter more for a player in Kobe's or Wade's circumstances in a year like this in which they are both favored to make the finals?

90% regular season? 10% playoffs?

I'm asking you. Please answer.

[Jacks3]

Can't answer without knowing the full context.

[DMAVS41]

Can't answer without knowing the full context.

I gave you the context.

What matters more? Playoffs or regular season play for a player playing on a team favored to make the finals at the start of the season.

That is all the context you need.

Forget Kobe and Wade for this question.

Just tell me if you think the regular season or playoffs is more important for an elite player on an elite team favored to make the finals or win it all.

Its a simple question about how you view the game.

[Jacks3]

Can't answer without knowing the full context.

[DMAVS41]

Can't answer without knowing the full context.

So you won't answer with all the details....and you won't answer a conceptual question on how you view the game either.

So basically you won't answer any question that doesn't favor your side of the argument.

Sorry, but you lose.

You won't even answer how much better you think Wade was this year in the playoffs than Kobe.

LOL

[Jacks3]

I did answer. I said I can't make a reasonable comparison without knowing the full context. That goes for any comparison.

[KOLBCTEW]

Again, he had two surgeries in the previous offseason and had recurring problems with his shoulder throughout the year. It's not like he was healthy and just had an off shooting year.
Still not debilitating injuries compared to what Wade went through.



Kobe was also dealing with injuries that year that directly affected his playing ability.
Wade was playing with one legit arm and a leg.. his injuries weren't debilitating like his.



Also Wade wasn't flying back and fourth from trials and having to play in games the same day. A custody hearing is a whole lot different from going through a rape trail, losing all your sponsors, wondering if your going to lose your freedom, your wife, your family, your basketball career etc. while dealing with the scrutiny and allegations of a heinous crime. I don't even know how anyone can play in a professional basketball game at a high level while going through all that stuff.
:oldlol: Now it's a miracle he even played.
They're many prisoners that still have a wife and family, Wade was in serious danger of losing his kids and the divorce proceedings had been going on for like three years.


You have it backwards. His numbers don't reflect prime play because he wasn't in his prime....
If his prime started two years prior then he was currently in his prime. Not Past or before his prime; currently within it.


Again, Kobe saw a massive drop-off in his play that entire year compared to 2001 and 2003. How else do you explain this? Because it wasn't a prime year
Again, it's not just one series..

Does it matter? Using your logic you can conveniently take players in and out of their prime whenever you please... Wade wasn't in his prime against the Bulls. Again, Wade saw a massive drop-off in his play that entire series compared to His Celtics Series last month and Mavs Series this month. How else do you explain this? Because it wasn't a prime series :roll:

If Wade plays badly next year he wasn't in his prime. If he plays great the following year.. he's back in his prime again :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

If his prime started two years prior then he was currently in his prime. Not Past or before his prime; currently within it.


Not really. It would be like saying 07-08 was prime Wade because his prime started in 2006, but everyone knows it's not. And no, when injuries ruin you to the point where you're seeing massive drop-offs in play compared to just a previous year, it's not a prime season.

[Jacks3]

Does it matter?
Of course it matters. You're using one series when I'm talking about entire seasons. :oldlol:

Anyway, it's irreverent. The Houston series you pointed out is still much better than the series Wade had vs the Bulls.

24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS

[KOLBCTEW]

Not really. It would be like saying 07-08 was prime Wade because his prime started in 2006, but everyone knows it's not. And no, when injuries ruin you to the point where you're seeing massive drop-offs in play compared to just a previous year, it's not a prime season.
And that's because having severe injuries make you unable to play to even close to your full potential. Severe injuries that drastically affect your play are the only thing that can force you out of from being in your prime.


Of course it matters. You're using one series when I'm talking about entire seasons. :oldlol: How does that change the fact that Bull series isn't a prime version of Wade. Did Wade not show a massive drop off in play from the Celtics Series to the Bulls series?


Anyway, it's irreverent. The Houston series you pointed out is still much better than the series Wade had vs the Bulls.

24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS
Wade had a better FG percentage meaning he shot better and hit clutch shots.

[Jacks3]

And that's because having severe injuries make you unable to play to even close to your full potential. Severe injuries that drastically affect your play are the only thing that can force you out of from being in your prime.
And Kobe was playing with severe injuries. I guess Wade was in his prime 07-08.
Prime Wade lead his team to 15 wins! :oldlol: And no, when injuries ruin you to the point where you're seeing massive drop-offs in play compared to just a previous year, it's not a prime season.

How does that change the fact that Bull series isn't a prime version of Wade. Did Wade not show a massive drop off in play from the Celtics Series to the Bulls series?

It's not the same. You're talking about one series. I'm talking about entire seasons with a massive drop-off on both ends. You can be in your prime and still have bad series. This has happened to Prime Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Bird etc. But you can't realistically say someone is having a prime season if he clearly isn't close to the same level as his previous season due to injuries/off-court issues.

Wade had a better FG percentage meaning he shot better and hit clutch shots.
Kobe was clutch too.

Bottom-line: Kobe had a FAR better series. Do you dispute this?

24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS

[KOLBCTEW]

And Kobe was playing with severe injuries.
Kobe was on one arm and one leg? Kobe had his shoulder ripped from his socket? What severe injuries are you talking about.


I guess Wade was in his prime 07-08.
Prime Wade lead his team to 15 wins! :oldlol: And no, when injuries ruin you to the point where you're seeing massive drop-offs in play compared to just a previous year, it's not a prime season..Uhhh.. that's what I said..:facepalm


And that's because having severe injuries make you unable to play to even close to your full potential. Severe injuries that drastically affect your play are the only thing that can force you out of from being in your prime...



It's not the same. You're talking about one series. I'm talking about entire seasons with a massive drop-off on both ends....We're both talking about an extended period of time where there was a massive drop-off in play..



You can be in your prime and still have bad series. This has happened to Prime Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Bird etc.
Your logic dictates if your having a bad series, month, year doesn't matter how long your out of your prime as your not playing up to your prime state. So 03-04 isn't a prime version of Kobe just as Bulls series isn't a prime version of Wade.


But you can't realistically say someone is having a prime season if he clearly isn't close to the same level as his previous season due to injuries/off-court issues. .
For one injuries weren't severe enough to drastically affect his play and Wade had gone through a custody case for almost three year where he could've lost his kids,


Kobe was clutch too..
In What games?
[QUOTE=Jacks3
Bottom-line: Kobe had a FAR better series. Do you dispute this?

24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS [/QUOTE]
Do you dispute that he shot 38% which is worse than Wade. Do you dispute that he played more minutes and had more attempts

[Jacks3]

Kobe was on one arm and one leg? Kobe had his shoulder ripped from his socket? What severe injuries are you talking about.
Kobe had knee and shoulder surgery during the off-season and never recovered.






Your logic dictates if your having a bad series, month, year doesn't matter how long your out of your prime as your not playing up to your prime state. So 03-04 isn't a prime version of Kobe just as Bulls series isn't a prime version of Wade.
No.Read again. You can be in your prime and still have bad series. This has happened to Prime Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Bird etc. But you can't realistically say someone is having a prime season if he clearly isn't close to the same level as his previous season due to injuries/off-court issues. .




Do you dispute that he shot 38% which is worse than Wade. Do you dispute that he played more minutes and had more attempts

1. Kobe had the much better series. 24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS

2. Wade's series was epically bad. 19/6/4/5 TOV per game/50% TS.

[KOLBCTEW]

Kobe had knee and shoulder surgery during the off-season and never recovered.
That's what counts for a serious injury? Wade has migraines which he can't recover from and that shoulder he had surgery on was acting up this year (meaning he never recovered from it), plus his knee was acting up as well...






No.Read again. You can be in your prime and still have bad series.
How considering His numbers don't reflect prime play?




This has happened to Prime Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Bird etc.. Then during those periods they weren't in their primes given that their numbers don't reflect it.



But you can't realistically say someone is having a prime season if he clearly isn't close to the same level as his previous season due to injuries/off-court issues. . For one injuries weren't severe enough to drastically affect his play and Wade had gone through a custody case for almost three year where he could've lost his kids,







1. Kobe had the much better series. 24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS

2. Wade's series was epically bad. 19/6/4/5 TOV per game/50% TS.
Again Do you dispute that he shot 38% which is worse than Wade. Do you dispute that he played more minutes and had more attempts.

[Jacks3]

That's what counts for a serious injury? Wade has migraines which he can't recover from and that shoulder he had surgery on was acting up this year (meaning he never recovered from it), plus his knee was acting up as well...


Considering the massive drop-off play, yes it's serious.



Again:
No.Read again. You can be in your prime and still have bad series. This has happened to Prime Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Bird etc.. But you can't realistically say someone is having a prime season if he clearly isn't close to the same level as his previous season due to injuries/off-court issues. .








Again Do you dispute that he shot 38% which is worse than Wade. Do you dispute that he played more minutes and had more attempts.
Well, no, I don't dispute it but that doesn't change the fact....

1. Kobe's series was much better. Kobe had the much better series. 24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS

2. Wade's series was epically bad. 19/6/4/5 TOV per game/50% TS.

[Hank]

2. Wade's series was epically bad. 19/6/4/5 TOV per game/50% TS.

Do you even watch basketball? That's just simply not true. Wade was epic on defense and played like a big man in that bulls series with all the rebounds and combating bulls bigs in the paint. and this was of major importance against a bulls team that thrives on rebounds and what they do in the paint.

Wade is on pace to set historical NBA records in a playoff run for a player of his size, and even bigger than him - partly for how fantastic he was in all the other areas of the game in that chicago series

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225007

and that is because wade is a complete player who can impact big games in more ways than kobe can. As we saw in the olympics as well when wade was far better than kobe too, and made much more of an impact in various forms of the games.

[Jacks3]

Do you even watch basketball? That's just simply not true. ]
:oldlol: . Sorry, but 19/6/4/50% TS is HORRIBLE for a top 5 player.

[Jacks3]

and that is because wade is a complete player who can impact big games in more ways than kobe can.
Maybe current Kobe. Too bad prime Kobe was a better all-around player than Wade.

[KOLBCTEW]

Considering the massive drop-off play, yes it's serious. Except that's not much of an indicator considering this was not an issue in the season.





Again:
No.Read again. You can be in your prime and still have bad series.You still haven't answered.
How considering His numbers don't reflect prime play?



This has happened to Prime Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Bird etc.. .Then you can easily say during those periods they weren't in their primes given that their numbers don't reflect it.



But you can't realistically say someone is having a prime season if he clearly isn't close to the same level as his previous season due to injuries/
.IT wasn't drastic enough to severely affect his play so that point is moot.



off-court issues. .Everyone has off the court issues








Well, no, I don't dispute it but that doesn't change the fact....

1. Kobe's series was much better. Kobe had the much better series. 24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS

2. Wade's series was epically bad. 19/6/4/5 TOV per game/50% TS. If your ignoring the fact Wade shot better and had fewer attempts and played less minutes whilesaying Kobe had the better series you are..

[Jacks3]

Except that's not much of an indicator considering this was not an issue in the season.
What?


You still haven't answered.
How considering His numbers don't reflect prime play?
A drop-off in numbers in a 5 game series is NOT the same as another player literally seeing a huge drop-off for an ENTIRE season compared to his previous.

Then you can easily say during those periods they weren't in their primes given that their numbers don't reflect it.
No, they were still in their prime because their play over the ENTIRE season reflected it, even if they had one bad series. They didn't see huge drop-off's in play for ENTIRE SEASONS compared to the previous season due to injuries like 04 Kobe/08 Wade.

IT wasn't drastic enough to severely affect his play so that point is moot.
How was it not drastic enough when his entire 2004 season was considerably worse than what he did just the previous year or 2001? DO you think a drop-off like that is normal? How else do you explain him seeing a HUGE drop in his game on both sides of the ball compared to 2002-2003? It just happened? :confusedshrug:










If your ignoring the fact Wade shot better and had fewer attempts and played less minutes whilesaying Kobe had the better series you are..
I'm ignoring it because saying Wade was better in those areas doesn't make the fact that Kobe had a MUCH better series any less true. Frankly, it doesn't matter much. Kobe still had the much better series. 24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS.

Wade still had a horrible series.

[Hank]

Too bad prime Kobe was a better all-around player than Wade.

Too bad he wasn't. And that's why every single time they've had similar supporting casts and/or went up against the same competition Wade always outperformed Kobe, and Wade's teams always outperformed kobe's teams whenever they've had similar supporting casts on 3 occasions. Then you have the olympics, which is a 4th occasion, when their primes were merged closely, and Wade totally outperformed kobe in just about every conceivable measure there too.


Wade >> kobe .. then and now.

[Jacks3]

Too bad he wasn't. And that's why every single time they've had similar supporting casts and/or went up against the same competition Wade always outperformed Kobe, and Wade's teams always outperformed kobe's teams. Then you have the olympics when their primes were merged closely and Wade totally outperformed kobe in just about every conceivable measure there too.
You're an alternate account for Heat007 aren't you? :oldlol:

None of what you said disproved my post. Prime Kobe was better than Wade or equal in literally every area. Scoring, defense, re-bounding.,passing, skill-set,clutch play, shooting.

[Hank]

st. Prime Kobe was better than Wade or equal in literally every area. Scoring, defense, re-bounding.,passing, skill-set,clutch play, shooting.

no he wasn't.

[KOLBCTEW]

A drop-off in numbers in a 5 game series is NOT the same as another player literally seeing a huge drop-off for an ENTIRE season compared to his previous..So what if it's not the same? The only difference is the time, it still doesn't change the fact that 5 game series or entire season play was not Prime play.



No, they were still in their prime because their play over the ENTIRE season reflected it, even if they had one bad series. ..Uh.. They're no longer in their primes if they're playing badly.. They get back into their primes once they start playing well again.


They didn't see huge drop-off's in play for ENTIRE SEASONS compared to the previous season due to injuries like 04 Kobe/08 Wade...Wade's injury was debilitating... Kobe's wasn't..



How was it not drastic enough when his entire 2004 season was considerably worse than what he did just the previous year or 2001?... So your saying just because he played badly it means he was injured. I guess Wade was suffering through migraines and injuries in each game he played poorly.


DO you think a drop-off like that is normal??...Neither is a terrible series..


How else do you explain him seeing a HUGE drop in his game on both sides of the ball compared to 2002-2003? It just happened? :confusedshrug:
Uh.. Yes, just like players shooting badly can happen. Just like players missing shots they usually make can happen. Just like players making poor decisions on the court can happen. Which is why players don't average virtually the same production every year in their peak because they can make mistakes even over an extended period of time.










I'm ignoring it because saying Wade was better in those areas doesn't make the fact that Kobe had a MUCH better series any less true..
He was more efficient, had fewer shots and played less minutes..
Just because Kobe was better in areas(like winning championships) doesn't make the fact that Wade has a MUCH better career any less true...:rolleyes:



Frankly, it doesn't matter much. Kobe still had the much better series. 24/6/6/1 TOV/50% TS>>19/6/4/5 TOV/50% TS.
Just like Wade has the much better Prime AMIRITE??


Wade still had a horrible series.
No one is disputing that...

[chazzy]

Kolb, quit discussing a year you clearly did not watch or remember :oldlol: . Kobe's injuries were a recurring problem all year and everyone considered 04 to be a down year. Everyone's already explained the fact that he had two surgeries, reinjured his shoulder during the year, and his numbers dropped all across the board but your only retort is "oh it wasn't that bad!"

And yes, both Wade and Kobe's series were bad but Wade's was worse, especially with the 5 TOVs.