Hakeem had the greatest peak play than any other player

[Soothing Layup]

Period.

[Goliath Uterus]

Ha Ha

[jlauber]

Game= Wilt
Season= Wilt

Hakeem....the most OVER-RATED player on ISH. He of the ONE MVP in 18 seasons. He of the EIGHT FIRST-ROUND PLAYOFF exits. He of the player who led his team to three playoff losses to lower seeds.

ZERO scoring titles. TWO rebound titles (and BADLY outrebounded by a TEAMMATE in one season AND post-season.) ZERO FG% titles.

The greatest peak my ass!

[FadeAwayJ13]

Supporting facts? No?

Okay.

[jlip]

Period.

Semicolon

[Fatal9]

Game= Wilt
Season= Wilt
'93-'95 Hakeem > any multiple year stretch by Wilt

[ThaSwagg3r]

I'll take Shaq's peak over Hakeem's thank you very much.

[Bring-Your-Js]

'93-'95 Hakeem > any multiple year stretch by Wilt

:oldlol:

Oh, I'm not laughing at the statement either.

[jlauber]

Get back to me when you find a regular season game in which he scored 100 pts (or even SIX of 70+), or even 32 of 60+. Get back to me when you find a playoff game in which he put up a 56-35 (in a must-win elimination game), or even a 50-35 playoff game in a must-win elimination game (and against Russell BTW), or a 46-34 game in a must-win elimination (and again, against Russell.) Or a 39 ppg -23 rpg seven game playoff series. Or perhaps a SEASON of 50 ppg (or 45 ppg), or averaging 40 ppg over his first seven seasons...COMBINED. Or a 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound FINALS game!

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem had 55 rebounds (and BTW, outrebounding Russell in that game...55-19), or a playoff game of 41 rebounds (and BTW, it was again, against Russell.) Or a 27.2 rpg regular SEASON. Or a 30 rpg POST-SEASON. Or a 32 rpg series, and against a player of the caliber of Russell no less. Or 15 of the TOTAL of 28 40+ rebound games...in NBA history (and a 7-1 H2H edge against Russell...as well as a 23-4 H2H edge against Russell in 35+ rebound games.) Or a 38 rebound FINALS game (and against Thurmond no less...as well as 27-38 Finals game against Russell.)

Get back to me when you find a 100-25 game. Or a 78-43 game. Or a 56-45 game (or FOUR 50-40 games in his career.) Or a 44-43 game as he had against Russell. Or how about this TRIPLE-DOUBLE... 53 points, 32 rebounds, and 14 assists. Or how about this TRIPLE-DOUBLE... 22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists. Or a 24-32-13-12 QUAD-DOUBLE and against Russell in the playoffs. Or a TRIPLE-DOUBLE SERIES in the '67 ECF's...and against Russell. The ONLY FOUR 50-40 games in NBA HISTORY. 55 of the TOTAL of 61 40-30...in NBA HISTORY. And 103 of the TOTAL of 131 30-30 games...in NBA HISTORY. Or a 30-30 PLAYOFF series...and against Russell (in a seven game series, in which Wilt took a 40-40 team to a game seven, ONE-point loss against the HOF-laden 62-18 Celtics!)

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem went 15-15 from the field, or 16-16 from the field, or 18-18 from the field. Or had a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting. Find me a season in which Hakeem shot .727, or .683 from the field. Find me a Finals in which he shot .625 (as well as averaging 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.)

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem had 21 assists. Or a playoff game with 19 assists (and 30 rebounds.) Or a season in which he led the NBA in assists.

Find me a game in which Hakeem blocked 25 shots, or even a RECORDED 23 block game in a nationally televised game in 1968.

Yep...get back to me when you can find Hakeem even coming remotely CLOSE to ANY of those achievements.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

That ANYONE would claim that Hakeem had a greater peak, or CAREER, than Chamberlain.

[jlauber]

'93-'95 Hakeem > any multiple year stretch by Wilt


I just addressed this TRASH. ONLY in Fecal9's world.

[iamgine]

I think the fact that Wilt could average those crazy numbers were a testament of the pace and level of competition back then, not of his ability.

[DMAVS41]

Nope.

And an even bigger NOPE to the notion that Hakeem's peak was better than Wilt's.

[Bring-Your-Js]

I think the fact that Wilt could average those crazy numbers were a testament of the pace and level of competition back then, not of his ability.

This.

Pace of era must be given significant consideration. For example, Rodman destroys him in TRB%.

[DMAVS41]

I think the fact that Wilt could average those crazy numbers were a testament of the pace and level of competition back then, not of his ability.

The numbers are inflated compared to what he would do today of course, but if it was so easy.....

Why did no other player come close to putting those kind of numbers up?

[JGXEN]

Who the f*ck cares about Wilt here? Damn it, I'm sick of all those stupid long ass paragraphs by jlauber to vindicate Wilt. :facepalm

[jlauber]

I think the fact that Wilt could average those crazy numbers were a testament of the pace and level of competition back then, not of his ability.

Yep...after all, EVERYONE was doing it back then, right? Funny, I don't see ANY OTHER player with a 50 ppg season (or even a 45 ppg season.) Or a 27.2 rpg season (or another at 27.0 rpg). Or another player with a 50-26 season. Or another player with a .727 or .683 FG% season (and BTW, while pace is held against Wilt...what about him, and him alone, outshooting entire leagues by .244 and even .271?!) Or leading the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, AND FG% in the SAME SEASON....THREE TIMES. Or leading the league in SCORING and REBOUNDING in the SAME SEASON...FIVE times. Or leading the NBA in REBOUNDING AND FG%...EIGHT TIMES. Or LEADING the NBA in 70% of their ENTIRE STATISTICAL categories in the SAME SEASON (15 of 22 in '62-63.) Or winning scoring titles by +18.8 (and another at +10.8 ppg.)

He accomplished these and the rest of his 130 NBA records against players like Bellamy, Lovellette, Embry, Reed, Lanier, Hayes, Unseld, Cowens, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...ALL in the HOF.

Yep...everyone else was doing it back then...

[iamgine]

I didn't say everyone else was doing it, in fact I said the opposite...reading comprehension problem?

[jlauber]

Who the f*ck cares about Wilt here? Damn it, I'm sick of all those stupid long ass paragraphs by jlauber to vindicate Wilt. :facepalm

And what a STUPID response on YOUR part. Just what the hell was the OP here??? A RIDICULOUS OP claimed that Hakeem had the greatest peak player of ANY OTHER PLAYER. I merely pointed out that Hakeem's peak play PALES in comparison to Wilt's.

And then I SUPPORTED my take...unlike YOU!

[Inactive]

Who the f*ck cares about Wilt here? Damn it, I'm sick of all those stupid long ass paragraphs by jlauber to vindicate Wilt. :facepalmSo, don't read them. I think it's great that there's someone who doesn't just go along with the accepted narrative, and fills his posts with information. Even if you think Wilt would be a scrub in today's league, it doesn't hurt to be reminded (or taught) of how dominant he was in the past.

[Rose]

Well Hakeem is probably my favorite all time player...No :roll: :roll: :roll:

[jlauber]

I didn't say everyone else was doing it, in fact I said the opposite...reading comprehension problem?

I have already DESTROYED the "pace" theories here MANY times. As for Wilt being LIGHT YEARS ahead of his peers..SO WHAT? Wilt was FAR more dominant against HIS peers, than Hakeem was against his. So, no matter what CRITERIA is used...Wilt had a FAR greater PEAK AND CAREER.

[iamgine]

Umm, you only destroyed it in your own mind maybe?

Yes Wilt had fared crazy numbers against his peers, that's also in my post. Reading comprehension sir.

[Fatal9]

That's nice but a lot of what happened could only happen in a certain setting which the early 60s provided. lol @ completely ignoring the different setting the two players played in. In the early 60s, the pace of the league was ridiculous which allowed Wilt to shoot 40 fukking times a game, the league was 70% white (this is a fact, not an estimate) with a lot of stiffs from the 50s crossing over (prime time for someone to be completely ahead of their time), the lane was narrower in his 40+ ppg seasons, you'd need to be playing 45+ minutes even in blowouts (like Wilt) and many stars from the era averaged that many minutes, and on and on and on. Strong logic @ comparing raw stats for raw stats across eras that were so different.

But anyways...

Get back to me when Wilt leads his team to a championship as the leading scorer on his own team in the playoffs.

Get back to me when Wilt routinely raised his game in the playoffs like Hakeem (lol @ mr. GOAT scorer averaging 22 ppg on 52 TS% in the playoffs).

Get back to me when Wilt comes BACK from 3-1 deficits instead of blowing 3-1 leads.

Get back to me when Hakeem is on a 31 win team in his prime in a season he played every game and was healthy (seriously lol @ this, so much for his stats, can't see any other top 10 player on a team that bad especially with couple of other all-stars there with him).

Get back to me when Hakeem's teammates are praising the lord that he got traded because he held them back.

Get back to me when Hakeem is leading a team to the worst record in the league which eventually leads to him getting traded for scrubs.

Get back to me when Hakeem plays on teams that were capable of winning 50+ without him (like Wilt in late 60s) and STILL not winning.

So on and so on. Sorry, you can keep your FG% titles. Wilt btw would purposely not shoot against certain centers to keep his FG% up. But I want an assassin like Hakeem on my team, who at his peak did it all (great scoring, passing, defense all simultaneously), not give you one extreme or the other. There's no question about how well Hakeem's game translates to nowadays either, Wilt meanwhile looks awkward as hell dribbling the ball on his post ups from every game I've seen.

[Fatal9]

Right, pace has no effect on his numbers. I'm sure Wilt could average 40 shot attempts and 17 FTs in current conditions. Or how all the 20+ rpg rebounders died as the game slowed down more and more (definitely just a coincidence :rolleyes:).

[jlauber]

Umm, you only destroyed it in your own mind maybe?

Yes Wilt had fared crazy numbers against his peers, that's also in my post. Reading comprehension sir.

And I already addressed this. Wilt's 130+ records that he achieved in his career, came against the likes, Bellamy, Embry, Lovellette, Reed, Lucas, Unseld, Hayes, Lanier, Cowens, Thurmond, McAdoo, Russell, and Kareem. ALL in the HOF. (And he dominated the 7-2 Artis Gilmore, and at age 35, in the '72 ABA-NBA All-Star game.) BTW, you can add an inch to an inch-and-a-half to almost all of the above players,...all of whom were measured in bare feet. So, Bellamy, Thurmond, and Lanier all would have been over 7-0. And we KNOW that Kareem and Gilmore were 7-2+...and even taller in shoes.

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's nice but a lot of what happened could only happen in a certain setting which the early 60s provided. lol @ completely ignoring the different setting the two players played in. In the early 60s, the pace of the league was ridiculous which allowed Wilt to shoot 40 fukking times a game, the league was 70% white (this is a fact, not an estimate) with a lot of stiffs from the 50s crossing over (prime time for someone to be completely ahead of their time), the lane was narrower in his 40+ ppg seasons, you'd need to be playing 45+ minutes even in blowouts (like Wilt) and many stars from the era averaged that many minutes, and on and on and on. Strong logic @ comparing raw stats for raw stats across eras that were so different.

But anyways...

Get back to me when Wilt leads his team to a championship as the leading scorer on his own team in the playoffs.

Get back to me when Wilt routinely raised his game in the playoffs like Hakeem (lol @ mr. GOAT scorer averaging 22 ppg on 52 TS% in the playoffs).

Get back to me when Wilt comes BACK from 3-1 deficits instead of blowing 3-1 leads.

Get back to me when Hakeem is on a 31 win team in his prime in a season he played every game and was healthy (seriously lol @ this, so much for his stats, can't see any other top 10 player on a team that bad especially with couple of other all-stars there with him).

Get back to me when Hakeem's teammates are praising the lord that he got traded because he held them back.

Get back to me when Hakeem is leading a team to the worst record in the league which eventually leads to him getting traded for scrubs.

Get back to me when Hakeem plays on teams that were capable of winning 50+ without him (like Wilt in late 60s) and STILL not winning.

So on and so on. Sorry, you can keep your FG% titles. Wilt btw would purposely not shoot against certain centers to keep his FG% up. But I want an assassin like Hakeem on my team, who at his peak did it all (great scoring, passing, defense all simultaneously), not give you one extreme or the other. There's no question about how well Hakeem's game translates to nowadays either, Wilt meanwhile looks awkward as hell dribbling the ball on his post ups from every game I've seen.

:applause: I think that just about covers it.

[juju151111]

That's nice but a lot of what happened could only happen in a certain setting which the early 60s provided. lol @ completely ignoring the different setting the two players played in. In the early 60s, the pace of the league was ridiculous which allowed Wilt to shoot 40 fukking times a game, the league was 70% white (this is a fact, not an estimate) with a lot of stiffs from the 50s crossing over (prime time for someone to be completely ahead of their time), the lane was narrower in his 40+ ppg seasons, you'd need to be playing 45+ minutes even in blowouts (like Wilt) and many stars from the era averaged that many minutes, and on and on and on. Strong logic @ comparing raw stats for raw stats across eras that were so different.

But anyways...

Get back to me when Wilt leads his team to a championship as the leading scorer on his own team in the playoffs.

Get back to me when Wilt routinely raised his game in the playoffs like Hakeem (lol @ mr. GOAT scorer averaging 22 ppg on 52 TS% in the playoffs).

Get back to me when Wilt comes BACK from 3-1 deficits instead of blowing 3-1 leads.

Get back to me when Hakeem is on a 31 win team in his prime in a season he played every game and was healthy (seriously lol @ this, so much for his stats, can't see any other top 10 player on a team that bad especially with couple of other all-stars there with him).

Get back to me when Hakeem's teammates are praising the lord that he got traded because he held them back.

Get back to me when Hakeem is leading a team to the worst record in the league which eventually leads to him getting traded for scrubs.

Get back to me when Hakeem plays on teams that were capable of winning 50+ without him (like Wilt in late 60s) and STILL not winning.

So on and so on. Sorry, you can keep your FG% titles. Wilt btw would purposely not shoot against certain centers to keep his FG% up. But I want an assassin like Hakeem on my team, who at his peak did it all (great scoring, passing, defense all simultaneously), not give you one extreme or the other. There's no question about how well Hakeem's game translates to nowadays either, Wilt meanwhile looks awkward as hell dribbling the ball on his post ups from every game I've seen.
:applause: :applause:

[iamgine]

Just because someone's in the HOF, don't mean they're good. Wasn't that guy who could dribble only with right hand in the HOF too? And that's one of the best player, imagine the rest of them.

Like I said, the fact that Wilt could average those crazy numbers were a testament of the pace and level of competition back then, not of his ability.

[Dbrog]

Honestly...Shaq's peak was better than Hakeem's. Btw, anyone who thinks Hakeem is in any way better than Wilt should just stop watching basketball. Wilt basically IS a 7'1" rich-mans Hakeem! :facepalm

[jlauber]

That's nice but a lot of what happened could only happen in a certain setting which the early 60s provided. lol @ completely ignoring the different setting the two players played in. In the early 60s, the pace of the league was ridiculous which allowed Wilt to shoot 40 fukking times a game, the league was 70% white (this is a fact, not an estimate) with a lot of stiffs from the 50s crossing over (prime time for someone to be completely ahead of their time), the lane was narrower in his 40+ ppg seasons, you'd need to be playing 45+ minutes even in blowouts (like Wilt) and many stars from the era averaged that many minutes, and on and on and on. Strong logic @ comparing raw stats for raw stats across eras that were so different.



Yep... 118.8 ppg in Wilt's 50.4 ppg scoring season...109.9 ppg in MJ's 37.1 ppg season. And Chamberlain averaging 39 ppg at the halfway point of the '65 season, in a league with a WIDENED lane...(and then averaging 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting the very next season...in a league that shot .433.)

Or Wilt averaging 24.1 ppg, 24.3 rpg, 7.8 apg, and shooting .683 in the '67 season, in a nine team league that had Zelmo Beatty (a Five time all-star), Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, and Bill Russell (as well as Jerry Lucas and Wayne Embry)...ALL but Beatty in the HOF.

And Wilt playing 45 mpg...over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER...and an even more remarkable 47.2 mpg over the course of his ENTIRE 160 post-season games.


Get back to me when Wilt leads his team to a championship as the leading scorer on his own team in the playoffs.


Well, he did LEAD TWO of his TEAMs to WORLD titles. Not sure what the relevance of that is. He LED his team's in scoring in his post-season career, and with pathetic rosters, SIX times....FOUR of them at 33+. Of course, he LED his team in REBOUNDING EVERY post-season he played. Unlike Hakeem.


Get back to me when Wilt routinely raised his game in the playoffs like Hakeem (lol @ mr. GOAT scorer averaging 22 ppg on 52 TS% in the playoffs).



Interesting...how many 33.0 ppg post-seasons did Hakeem have? How many 39 ppg post-season series did Hakeem have? How many 50+ point games (and two of them in ELIMINATION games...and two more on top of that) did Hakeem have? How many 45-27 games did Hakeem have in his Finals?


Get back to me when Wilt comes BACK from 3-1 deficits instead of blowing 3-1 leads.



Chamberlain, on ONE-LEG, did LEAD his team back from a 3-1 series deficit in the '70 playoffs. And in the ONLY series in which his TEAM lost a 3-1 edge, they were without HOF Cunningham for the ENTIRE series. Then Luke Jackson AND Wali Jones were injured in game five, as well as Wilt NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three thru game seven (nope...no coincidence there that they then lost a 3-1 series lead.)


Get back to me when Hakeem is on a 31 win team in his prime in a season he played every game and was healthy (seriously lol @ this, so much for his stats, can't see any other top 10 player on a team that bad especially with couple of other all-stars there with him).



Yep ...the WORST roster in NBA history. How bad was that roster (which had 16 different players, several of whom never played again)? Their new coach in the following season held a scrimmage with those players and against rookies and scrubs...and they LOST. Of course Fecal fails to mention another FACT...that Wilt then took that same basic laughingstock roster to a 48-32 record, and into the Finals that very NEXT season.

Of course, it was WILT's fault that they went 31-49, right? After all, he LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of the 22 statistical categories...including scoring and by a 10.8 margin, rebounding, FG% (a nw record at the time...which he would shatter THREE more times) WIN-SHARES, and a PER of 31.8 which is STILL the all-time record. BTW, while Wilt shot .528, his teammates collectively shot .412. Oh, with that cast of clowns, they had a -2.1 scoring differential, and lost 35 games by single digits. And they were only involved in eight 20+ games all-season, going 4-4. Furthermore, Wilt's team went 1-8 against the Celtics and their NINE HOFErs (without a single one on his own team), and lost six of them by single digits. And all Wilt did in those nine games was to outscore Russell, per game, 38-14.


Get back to me when Hakeem's teammates are praising the lord that he got traded because he held them back

Give me those examples of players that Wilt "held back." Maybe Cunningham, who was a SIXTH man in Philly, or Walker, who was their FOURTH option. Maybe Thurmond, who was a rookie with Wilt, playing part-time and out of position (and like he would ever have been better than Wilt on the same team.) Maybe Baylor, who was already on the decline by the time Wilt arrived...and he played AWFUL even while Wilt was sacrificing HIS scoring. West had his greatest seasons with Wilt. Goodrich...best season ever with Wilt. Even your goofball "all-star" Meschery had his CAREER best season with Wilt. As did "HOFer" Gola.

That list is pretty short.


Get back to me when Hakeem is leading a team to the worst record in the league which eventually leads to him getting traded for scrubs


He was traded" from the Warriors, and they went 17-63. Meanwhile, Wilt took a team that had been 34-46 the year before, to a 40-40 record, and then a game seven, one-point loss against the 62-18 Celtics. THEN, he LED the Sixers to the BEST record in the league over the course of each of the nest three seasons, including a 68-13 team that won a dominating title...and STILL holds the team record for best record.

And, after he FORCED his "trade" from the Sixers, he IMMEDIATELY led LA to their best ever record in Los Angeles...FOUR Finals in his FIVE seasons (and a WCF's in the other,... withOUT BOTH Baylor and West BTW), including a 69-13 mark in '72, which is STILL a team record. BTW, Philly got progressively WORSE every season after that trade, and by Wilt's last season in the league, they had plummetted to a 9-73 record.

Incidently, in Wilt's first season in LA, he REPLACED a TOTAL of 42 ppg and 18 rpg...and even with West missing 20 games...they still posted that best ever record....which they would break again in '72.


Get back to me when Hakeem plays on teams that were capable of winning 50+ without him (like Wilt in late 60s) and STILL not winning.



That ONE team that Wilt left that won 55 games, came in a trade for THREE players, who not only had averaged 29 ppg and 15.1 rpg...BUT they then averaged 37.7 ppg and 20.2 rpg collectively in the post-season...and were WIPED out by a 48-34 Celtic team, 4-1, in the FIRST ROUND. Just the year before, the 62-20 Sixers, with FOUR of their starters playing INJURED (and one of them not playing at all)...lost a game seven in the ECF's by four points. And, of course, the year before that they had gone 68-13 and won a dominating title.

BTW, Hakeem played on 42-40 teams. And THREE of his team's lost to lower seeds. But the most GLARING stat...EIGHT FIRS-ROUND exits in 15 playoff seasons, over HALF.


So on and so on. Sorry, you can keep your FG% titles. Wilt btw would purposely not shoot against certain centers to keep his FG% up. But I want an assassin like Hakeem on my team, who at his peak did it all (great scoring, passing, defense all simultaneously), not give you one extreme or the other. There's no question about how well Hakeem's game translates to nowadays either, Wilt meanwhile looks awkward as hell dribbling the ball on his post ups from every game I've seen.

Chamberlain was the best defensive player in the league in '67 and '68, while averaging 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg and shooting .683 in one season...and then 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, 8.6 apg (and LEADING the league) and shooting
.595 in the other.

And not sure what footage YOU were looking at (if ANY.) Maybe in his LAST season, at age 36, when he was voted FIRST-TEAM All-Defense, LED the NBA in rebounding (and then averaged 22.5 rpg over the course of his 17 post-season games...in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg), AND set a FG% mark of .727. How was Hakeem doing at age 36 BTW...especially in the post-season, when he averaged 13.3 ppg, 7.3 rpg (a good QUARTER for Wilt even in his LAST season), and on .426 shooting. AND, at age 35 Wilt was, by virtually ALL accounts, outplaying a PRIME Kareem, and then leading his Lakers to a title...and winning the Finals MVP in the process.

[LJJ]

Jlauber is using so many bad arguments right now he's actually hurting Chamberlain's cause.

[Dbrog]

That's nice but a lot of what happened could only happen in a certain setting which the early 60s provided. lol @ completely ignoring the different setting the two players played in. In the early 60s, the pace of the league was ridiculous which allowed Wilt to shoot 40 fukking times a game, the league was 70% white (this is a fact, not an estimate) with a lot of stiffs from the 50s crossing over (prime time for someone to be completely ahead of their time), the lane was narrower in his 40+ ppg seasons, you'd need to be playing 45+ minutes even in blowouts (like Wilt) and many stars from the era averaged that many minutes, and on and on and on. Strong logic @ comparing raw stats for raw stats across eras that were so different.

But anyways...

Get back to me when Wilt leads his team to a championship as the leading scorer on his own team in the playoffs.

Get back to me when Wilt routinely raised his game in the playoffs like Hakeem (lol @ mr. GOAT scorer averaging 22 ppg on 52 TS% in the playoffs).

Get back to me when Wilt comes BACK from 3-1 deficits instead of blowing 3-1 leads.

Get back to me when Hakeem is on a 31 win team in his prime in a season he played every game and was healthy (seriously lol @ this, so much for his stats, can't see any other top 10 player on a team that bad especially with couple of other all-stars there with him).

Get back to me when Hakeem's teammates are praising the lord that he got traded because he held them back.

Get back to me when Hakeem is leading a team to the worst record in the league which eventually leads to him getting traded for scrubs.

Get back to me when Hakeem plays on teams that were capable of winning 50+ without him (like Wilt in late 60s) and STILL not winning.

So on and so on. Sorry, you can keep your FG% titles. Wilt btw would purposely not shoot against certain centers to keep his FG% up. But I want an assassin like Hakeem on my team, who at his peak did it all (great scoring, passing, defense all simultaneously), not give you one extreme or the other. There's no question about how well Hakeem's game translates to nowadays either, Wilt meanwhile looks awkward as hell dribbling the ball on his post ups from every game I've seen.

You do realize Wilt had to face the Celtics who had the most HOFers on any team ever right? Anyway...

That 31 win Warriors team was deceptive as Jlauber stated.

As far as his teammates saying he "held them back." Held them back from what? He took them to a FINALS and when he left they went back to the bottom of the league.

As for Wilt leading the 64-65 season Warriors to the worst record, you might want to check your facts first. That was the season he got traded to Phili after only playing 38 games for those Warriors.

Also, you talk about his playoff avg only being 22 pts but you conveniently leave out the 24 rpg. Also, he was a beast scorer until he turned 30 (wasn't just the playoffs. He averaged about the same in the season). Keep in mind, this was also after he had that strange heart condition illness that messed him up in the 64-65 season.

I could keep going but I don't really see the point. You really need to learn your facts before you open your mouth. Wilt shits on Hakeem and that's all there is to it.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

That's nice but a lot of what happened could only happen in a certain setting which the early 60s provided. lol @ completely ignoring the different setting the two players played in. In the early 60s, the pace of the league was ridiculous which allowed Wilt to shoot 40 fukking times a game, the league was 70% white (this is a fact, not an estimate) with a lot of stiffs from the 50s crossing over (prime time for someone to be completely ahead of their time), the lane was narrower in his 40+ ppg seasons, you'd need to be playing 45+ minutes even in blowouts (like Wilt) and many stars from the era averaged that many minutes, and on and on and on. Strong logic @ comparing raw stats for raw stats across eras that were so different.

But anyways...

Get back to me when Wilt leads his team to a championship as the leading scorer on his own team in the playoffs.

Get back to me when Wilt routinely raised his game in the playoffs like Hakeem (lol @ mr. GOAT scorer averaging 22 ppg on 52 TS% in the playoffs).

Get back to me when Wilt comes BACK from 3-1 deficits instead of blowing 3-1 leads.

Get back to me when Hakeem is on a 31 win team in his prime in a season he played every game and was healthy (seriously lol @ this, so much for his stats, can't see any other top 10 player on a team that bad especially with couple of other all-stars there with him).

Get back to me when Hakeem's teammates are praising the lord that he got traded because he held them back.

Get back to me when Hakeem is leading a team to the worst record in the league which eventually leads to him getting traded for scrubs.

Get back to me when Hakeem plays on teams that were capable of winning 50+ without him (like Wilt in late 60s) and STILL not winning.

So on and so on. Sorry, you can keep your FG% titles. Wilt btw would purposely not shoot against certain centers to keep his FG% up. But I want an assassin like Hakeem on my team, who at his peak did it all (great scoring, passing, defense all simultaneously), not give you one extreme or the other. There's no question about how well Hakeem's game translates to nowadays either, Wilt meanwhile looks awkward as hell dribbling the ball on his post ups from every game I've seen.
one of the best yet

[Harison]

I dont think Hakeem had greatest peak, but he was up there.


You do realize Wilt had to face the Celtics who had the most HOFers on any team ever right? Anyway...
Easy to answer, most of them got in HoF because of Russell. If Wilt's team would have won 11 rings instead, we would see the opposite - his team would suddenly be super stacked with HoF while Russells wouldnt, winning changes perception.



As far as his teammates saying he "held them back." Held them back from what? He took them to a FINALS and when he left they went back to the bottom of the league.
And now check what Wilt's teammates were saying, in any of his team. Even Jerry West was very critical of Wilt and said he was bad teammate.



Also, you talk about his playoff avg only being 22 pts but you conveniently leave out the 24 rpg. Also, he was a beast scorer until he turned 30 (wasn't just the playoffs. He averaged about the same in the season). Keep in mind, this was also after he had that strange heart condition illness that messed him up in the 64-65 season.
Wilt's regular season average: 30PPG, Playoffs 22 PPG. Wilt was playing worse in the Playoffs, fact. There are many players who played better than Wilt in the post-season, fact.



I could keep going but I don't really see the point. You really need to learn your facts before you open your mouth. Wilt shits on Hakeem and that's all there is to it.
In the Regular season sure, even DRob "shit" on Hakeem in the Regular season, we know how it turned out in the Playoffs. Same can be said about Wilt, another Regular season powerhouse who got his butt kicked over and over again in the Playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Wilt>Duncan>Hakeem

Not hard.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wilt>Duncan>Hakeem

Not hard.

Reverse that and it's correct.

[BlueandGold]

Yep... 118.8 ppg in Wilt's 50.4 ppg scoring season...109.9 ppg in MJ's 37.1 ppg season. And Chamberlain averaging 39 ppg at the halfway point of the '65 season, in a league with a WIDENED lane...(and then averaging 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting the very next season...in a league that shot .433.)

Or Wilt averaging 24.1 ppg, 24.3 rpg, 7.8 apg, and shooting .683 in the '67 season, in a nine team league that had Zelmo Beatty (a Five time all-star), Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, and Bill Russell (as well as Jerry Lucas and Wayne Embry)...ALL but Beatty in the HOF.

And Wilt playing 45 mpg...over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER...and an even more remarkable 47.2 mpg over the course of his ENTIRE 160 post-season games.



Well, he did LEAD TWO of his TEAMs to WORLD titles. Not sure what the relevance of that is. He LED his team's in scoring in his post-season career, and with pathetic rosters, SIX times....FOUR of them at 33+. Of course, he LED his team in REBOUNDING EVERY post-season he played. Unlike Hakeem.



Interesting...how many 33.0 ppg post-seasons did Hakeem have? How many 39 ppg post-season series did Hakeem have? How many 50+ point games (and two of them in ELIMINATION games...and two more on top of that) did Hakeem have? How many 45-27 games did Hakeem have in his Finals?



Chamberlain, on ONE-LEG, did LEAD his team back from a 3-1 series deficit in the '70 playoffs. And in the ONLY series in which his TEAM lost a 3-1 edge, they were without HOF Cunningham for the ENTIRE series. Then Luke Jackson AND Wali Jones were injured in game five, as well as Wilt NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three thru game seven (nope...no coincidence there that they then lost a 3-1 series lead.)



Yep ...the WORST roster in NBA history. How bad was that roster (which had 16 different players, several of whom never played again)? Their new coach in the following season held a scrimmage with those players and against rookies and scrubs...and they LOST. Of course Fecal fails to mention another FACT...that Wilt then took that same basic laughingstock roster to a 48-32 record, and into the Finals that very NEXT season.

Of course, it was WILT's fault that they went 31-49, right? After all, he LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of the 22 statistical categories...including scoring and by a 10.8 margin, rebounding, FG% (a nw record at the time...which he would shatter THREE more times) WIN-SHARES, and a PER of 31.8 which is STILL the all-time record. BTW, while Wilt shot .528, his teammates collectively shot .412. Oh, with that cast of clowns, they had a -2.1 scoring differential, and lost 35 games by single digits. And they were only involved in eight 20+ games all-season, going 4-4. Furthermore, Wilt's team went 1-8 against the Celtics and their NINE HOFErs (without a single one on his own team), and lost six of them by single digits. And all Wilt did in those nine games was to outscore Russell, per game, 38-14.



Give me those examples of players that Wilt "held back." Maybe Cunningham, who was a SIXTH man in Philly, or Walker, who was their FOURTH option. Maybe Thurmond, who was a rookie with Wilt, playing part-time and out of position (and like he would ever have been better than Wilt on the same team.) Maybe Baylor, who was already on the decline by the time Wilt arrived...and he played AWFUL even while Wilt was sacrificing HIS scoring. West had his greatest seasons with Wilt. Goodrich...best season ever with Wilt. Even your goofball "all-star" Meschery had his CAREER best season with Wilt. As did "HOFer" Gola.

That list is pretty short.




He was traded" from the Warriors, and they went 17-63. Meanwhile, Wilt took a team that had been 34-46 the year before, to a 40-40 record, and then a game seven, one-point loss against the 62-18 Celtics. THEN, he LED the Sixers to the BEST record in the league over the course of each of the nest three seasons, including a 68-13 team that won a dominating title...and STILL holds the team record for best record.

And, after he FORCED his "trade" from the Sixers, he IMMEDIATELY led LA to their best ever record in Los Angeles...FOUR Finals in his FIVE seasons (and a WCF's in the other,... withOUT BOTH Baylor and West BTW), including a 69-13 mark in '72, which is STILL a team record. BTW, Philly got progressively WORSE every season after that trade, and by Wilt's last season in the league, they had plummetted to a 9-73 record.

Incidently, in Wilt's first season in LA, he REPLACED a TOTAL of 42 ppg and 18 rpg...and even with West missing 20 games...they still posted that best ever record....which they would break again in '72.



That ONE team that Wilt left that won 55 games, came in a trade for THREE players, who not only had averaged 29 ppg and 15.1 rpg...BUT they then averaged 37.7 ppg and 20.2 rpg collectively in the post-season...and were WIPED out by a 48-34 Celtic team, 4-1, in the FIRST ROUND. Just the year before, the 62-20 Sixers, with FOUR of their starters playing INJURED (and one of them not playing at all)...lost a game seven in the ECF's by four points. And, of course, the year before that they had gone 68-13 and won a dominating title.

BTW, Hakeem played on 42-40 teams. And THREE of his team's lost to lower seeds. But the most GLARING stat...EIGHT FIRS-ROUND exits in 15 playoff seasons, over HALF.



Chamberlain was the best defensive player in the league in '67 and '68, while averaging 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg and shooting .683 in one season...and then 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, 8.6 apg (and LEADING the league) and shooting
.595 in the other.

And not sure what footage YOU were looking at (if ANY.) Maybe in his LAST season, at age 36, when he was voted FIRST-TEAM All-Defense, LED the NBA in rebounding (and then averaged 22.5 rpg over the course of his 17 post-season games...in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg), AND set a FG% mark of .727. How was Hakeem doing at age 36 BTW...especially in the post-season, when he averaged 13.3 ppg, 7.3 rpg (a good QUARTER for Wilt even in his LAST season), and on .426 shooting. AND, at age 35 Wilt was, by virtually ALL accounts, outplaying a PRIME Kareem, and then leading his Lakers to a title...and winning the Finals MVP in the process.

Pwnt.

[thomaspynchon]

I'll take Shaq's peak over Hakeem's thank you very much.

I won't.

[gengiskhan]

Period.

Agreed.

1994 : NBA MVP + NBA DPOY + NBA Finals MVP :bowdown:

followed by

1988: NBA MVP + NBA DPOY + All Star MVP + Back-2-back Slam Dunk Champion + NBA Scoring Champion + NBA Steals Champion:bowdown:

No matter how many all star accolades MJ won in 1988. Hakeem's Finals MVP win over Ewing clearly overshadows anything MJ did.

[Mikaiel]

Even Jerry West was very critical of Wilt and said he was bad teammate.

Link ?

[HighFlyer23]

Wilt would barely make the D-League today

[millwad]

If Wilt had the same skills and was playing today he would play in the swedish basketball league, lol..

Back to topic, Hakeem had a GOAT-type peak and someone mentioned Shaq..
Lol, who did peak Shaq play against that was any good? When Shaq won his titles he was the only good center around, no Hakeem's, Robinson's, Ewing's, Jabbars etc.. An old Dikembe Mutombo at and a PF in Tim Duncanbest, lol... And Shaq couldn't hit FT's for his life and his defense was not even close to Hakeem's..

[Harison]

Link ?
Wilt's biography "Goliath", or Bill Simmons book, loads of quotes.

Jerry West (in Goliath):

[IGOTGAME]

are people really serious with this? Hakeem is the most overrated player on ISH by far.

Players with greater peaks than Hakeem...

-Kareem
-Wilt
-Jordan
-Shaq
-Bird
-Magic
-Duncan

what a joke. such revisionist history going on here.

[AirJordan&Magic]

'93-'95 Hakeem > any multiple year stretch by Wilt

Agreed.

[MasterDurant24]

Wilt would barely make the D-League today
Yes, a 7-1, 275 pound freak athlete would make the D-Leauge. :rolleyes:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Period.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/jordand.gif

[caliman]

Period.



No, just no.

[millwad]

are people really serious with this? Hakeem is the most overrated player on ISH by far.

Players with greater peaks than Hakeem...

-Kareem
-Wilt
-Jordan
-Shaq
-Bird
-Magic
-Duncan

what a joke. such revisionist history going on here.

Wilt, Shaq and Duncan, not a chance in hell.. Bird had amazing teammates when he won and Jordan had Pippen, Kareem had Worthy and Johnson and alot of other great talented players. Hakeem won with Otis Thorpe and the year after he won with a Clyde Drexler out of his prime.. If he'd had the great talented guys on his teams like the guys above his prime would have been considered much longer and greater.

[BlackJoker23]

stay trolling, dickwad. :lol @ hakeem being better than kareem, shaq or bird. he'd clown duncan if it helps you sleep at night.

[IGOTGAME]

Wilt, Shaq and Duncan, not a chance in hell.. Bird had amazing teammates when he won and Jordan had Pippen, Kareem had Worthy and Johnson and alot of other great talented players. Hakeem won with Otis Thorpe and the year after he won with a Clyde Drexler out of his prime.. If he'd had the great talented guys on his teams like the guys above his prime would have been considered much longer and greater.

your logic is so flawed....

how does the teammates around you effect how good you are at your peak? it may effect results but Hakeem doesnt get any worst if he played with MJ in 94. The fact that Bird had good teammates doesn't make him any worst as a player.

Also a bit of faulty logic you have employed: the amount of competition you face doesn't make your peak any lower. it just effects how you are able to show how good you are.

[Harison]

your logic is so flawed....

how does the teammates around you effect how good you are at your peak? it may effect results but Hakeem doesnt get any worst if he played with MJ in 94. The fact that Bird had good teammates doesn't make him any worst as a player.

Also a bit of faulty logic you have employed: the amount of competition you face doesn't make your peak any lower. it just effects how you are able to show how good you are.
Whats your point? Hakeem's peak as a player is one of the best ever, but he wasnt fortunate to win as much as some others (and therefore less accolades) because of lesser teammates, whats not to understand? Dream in Kareem's place would have won as much if not more, thats the point.

[millwad]

your logic is so flawed....

how does the teammates around you effect how good you are at your peak? it may effect results but Hakeem doesnt get any worst if he played with MJ in 94. The fact that Bird had good teammates doesn't make him any worst as a player.

Also a bit of faulty logic you have employed: the amount of competition you face doesn't make your peak any lower. it just effects how you are able to show how good you are.

ALOT! He had years where he was at his peak but it was completely forgotten because his team couldn't make any noise in the regular or post-season due having untalented roleplayers. Therefore Hakeem didn't win as much as let us say Jabbar or Bird.. By the way, even though Bird played with much better players he was only able to win one more chip than Hakeem and he wasn't even the finals mvp in one, that says alot of his teams.

Doesn't it make sense to you that some of Hakeem's peak was overshadowed due him being on really bad teams?

[Nevaeh]

Jlauber is using so many bad arguments right now he's actually hurting Chamberlain's cause.

Yeah, specifically this line :



And Wilt playing 45 mpg...over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER...and an even more remarkable 47.2 mpg over the course of his ENTIRE 160 post-season games.

Now, imagine if other great players were given the green light to play those kind of minutes regardless of a game's outcome night in and night out. Imagine if Jordan was given the green light for 40 shots a game for 48 minutes.

Now take into consideration Wilt's height and his level of comp back then, and it's like "well no duh he was averaging those ridiculous numbers". I can't count the number of times MJ sat out entire 4th quarters because of blowout games.

I respect Wilt, but his legacy to me will always be tainted with the heavy aroma of "Stat Padding" above and beyond what was needed for the teams he played on.

[JMT]

Jlauber is using so many bad arguments right now he's actually hurting Chamberlain's cause.

nah...the only thing that can ever hurt Chamberlain's cause is people who think the league began in 1990 or who simply don't understand the game at all.

[JMT]

Now take into consideration Wilt's height and his level of comp back then, and it's like "well no duh he was averaging those ridiculous numbers". I can't count the number of times MJ sat out entire 4th quarters because of blowout games.



Height and level of competition??? There were more great legitimate big men during that era than at any time in the league's history. And, with far fewer teams (and talent not diluted by ridiculous expansion) he played against those guys night after night.

[Nevaeh]

Height and level of competition??? There were more great legitimate big men during that era than at any time in the league's history. And, with far fewer teams (and talent not diluted by ridiculous expansion) he played against those guys night after night.

Do you honestly believe that Wilt was actually needed for all 48 minutes of every game that he played?

[bdreason]

It's hard for me to respect numbers posted by players before black players were FULLY assimilated into the league.

[millwad]

Height and level of competition??? There were more great legitimate big men during that era than at any time in the league's history. And, with far fewer teams (and talent not diluted by ridiculous expansion) he played against those guys night after night.

Hm, did you sleep through the 80's and the 90's? Did you miss Hakeem, Moses Malone, Jabbar, Parish, Robinson, O'neal, Mourning, Ewing, Mutombo and those guys?

And please, define the players you are thinking about when writing "he played against those guys...", who are the other centers you're thinking about?

And Wilt only winning it twice says pretty much that all that stat padding wasn't really helping his teams.. in the season he averaged 50 points a game he dropped 15 points in term of scoring when the playoffs came, doesn't that say alot to you?

Both of Wilt's rings came when he was no longer the number one option on offense which proves that Wilt's statpadding wasn't really helping.

In 67 he was Phillys number one scorer during the regular season before Hal Greer took over that role averaging 6 points more during the playoffs.

In 72 he was the 4th option on offense..

[1Time4YourMind]

Height and level of competition??? There were more great legitimate big men during that era than at any time in the league's history. And, with far fewer teams (and talent not diluted by ridiculous expansion) he played against those guys night after night.
LOL the only big man that could stand up to Wilt was Russell. THe only thing scrub centers such as Lovellete/Walt Bellamy could be was elbow his teeth and beat him up because he was just so much better.

I hope this is a joke.

[bdreason]

I started watching NBA around 1988, and Hakeem is the 2nd best player I've ever seen play. Take into account I didn't really see Magic, Kareem, or Birds prime. I have Shaq a close 3rd, and I don't mind if someone wants to rank him over Hakeem. I won't even try to rank Wilt and Russell's prime. Both are top 5 all-time in my book, but it's impossible for me to rate their individual talent.

[jlauber]

Wilt's biography "Goliath", or Bill Simmons book, loads of quotes.

Jerry West (in Goliath): “I don’t want to rap Wilt because I believe only Russell was better, and I really respect what Wilt did. But I have to say he wouldn’t adjust to you, you had to adjust to him.”

Jerry Lucas (in Tall Tales): “Wilt was too consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal percentage. He’d accomplish one goal, then go on to another. Russell only asked one question: ‘What can I do to make us win?’”

And this perfectly sums up Wilt (his own words):

“To Bill [Russell], every game—every championship game—was a challenge, a test to his manhood. He took the game so seriously that he threw up in the locker room before almost every game. But I tend to look at basketball as a game, not a life or death struggle. I don’t need scoring titles or NBA championships to prove that I’m a man. There are too many other beautiful things in life—food, cars, girls, friends, the beach, freedom—to get that emotionally wrapped up in basketball.”

Its one of the main reasons why he didnt win over Russell - lack of killer mentality.

How about this quote from JERRY WEST, circa 2000...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html


"He was the most unbelievable center to ever play the game in terms of domination and intimidation. There's no one that's ever played the game better than Wilt Chamberlain. This was a man for all ages."

— Jerry West



As for not winning over Russell...

Maybe these edges in HOFers will give you a better idea...and remember, even with these HUGE margins...Wilt still took mostly inferior rosters, some vastly so, up agains those HOF-laden teams, and to FOUR game seven's...

1960 Russell with a 7-3 edge
1961 Russell with an 8-3 edge
1962 Russell with a 7-3 edge
1963 Russell with a 9-1 edge (YES, NINE to ONE...and that does not include a HOF coach, either...while Chamberlain was mostly saddled with incompetent coaches.)
1964 Russell with an 8-2 edge (and Wilt's HOF teammate was ROOKIE Nate Thurmond, playing part-time, out of position, and shooting .395)
1965 Russell with a 6-2 edge
1966 Russell with a 5-3 edge
1967 Russell with a 7-3 edge (and YET, Wilt CRUSHED Russell, and LED his team to a 4-1 rout of the Dynasty.)
1968 Russell with a 6-3 edge
1969 Russell with a 5-3 edge

So, in REALITY, Russell had either a SOLID margin in surrounding talent, or an OVERWHELMING edge. Furthermore, Russell had DEEPER benches, year-after-year.

Granted, not all of Russell's HOF teammates were deserving. Ramsey, Howell, KC Jones, and Satch Sanders would not have made it to the HOF without Russell. Having said that, however, Sanders and Jones were considered the best defensive forward and guard in the NBA in their years in the league.

As for Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Sam Jones, and Havlicek...my god...MULTIPLE 20+ pph seasons (and Cousy and Sharman had them BEFORE Russell BTW...while Havlicek EXPLODED AFTER Russell, with MANY 20+ seasons, including 29 and 28 ppg seasons.) ALL were HOF players, with, or withOUT Russell (and in fact contributed HEAVILY to RUSSELL making the HOF.)

None other than John Wooden claimed that had Wilt had Russell's rosters, he likely would have won 11 rings, too. Leonard Koppett, one of the greatest sport's historians of all-time, claimed that had Wilt had Russell's rosters, in the same exact seasons, that he would have gone 13-0.

At the very LEAST, had Russell and Wilt swapped rosters in Wilt's first six seasons, Chamberlain would have held a 6-0 edge in rings over that span.

Please...do some RESEARCH before making these RIDICULOUS posts.

And as for quoting Simmons...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160893

Probably the LEAST knowledgeable writer in sport's history.

[colts19]

Get back to me when you find a regular season game in which he scored 100 pts (or even SIX of 70+), or even 32 of 60+. Get back to me when you find a playoff game in which he put up a 56-35 (in a must-win elimination game), or even a 50-35 playoff game in a must-win elimination game (and against Russell BTW), or a 46-34 game in a must-win elimination (and again, against Russell.) Or a 39 ppg -23 rpg seven game playoff series. Or perhaps a SEASON of 50 ppg (or 45 ppg), or averaging 40 ppg over his first seven seasons...COMBINED. Or a 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound FINALS game!

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem had 55 rebounds (and BTW, outrebounding Russell in that game...55-19), or a playoff game of 41 rebounds (and BTW, it was again, against Russell.) Or a 27.2 rpg regular SEASON. Or a 30 rpg POST-SEASON. Or a 32 rpg series, and against a player of the caliber of Russell no less. Or 15 of the TOTAL of 28 40+ rebound games...in NBA history (and a 7-1 H2H edge against Russell...as well as a 23-4 H2H edge against Russell in 35+ rebound games.) Or a 38 rebound FINALS game (and against Thurmond no less...as well as 27-38 Finals game against Russell.)

Get back to me when you find a 100-25 game. Or a 78-43 game. Or a 56-45 game (or FOUR 50-40 games in his career.) Or a 44-43 game as he had against Russell. Or how about this TRIPLE-DOUBLE... 53 points, 32 rebounds, and 14 assists. Or how about this TRIPLE-DOUBLE... 22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists. Or a 24-32-13-12 QUAD-DOUBLE and against Russell in the playoffs. Or a TRIPLE-DOUBLE SERIES in the '67 ECF's...and against Russell. The ONLY FOUR 50-40 games in NBA HISTORY. 55 of the TOTAL of 61 40-30...in NBA HISTORY. And 103 of the TOTAL of 131 30-30 games...in NBA HISTORY. Or a 30-30 PLAYOFF series...and against Russell (in a seven game series, in which Wilt took a 40-40 team to a game seven, ONE-point loss against the HOF-laden 62-18 Celtics!)

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem went 15-15 from the field, or 16-16 from the field, or 18-18 from the field. Or had a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting. Find me a season in which Hakeem shot .727, or .683 from the field. Find me a Finals in which he shot .625 (as well as averaging 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.)

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem had 21 assists. Or a playoff game with 19 assists (and 30 rebounds.) Or a season in which he led the NBA in assists.

Find me a game in which Hakeem blocked 25 shots, or even a RECORDED 23 block game in a nationally televised game in 1968.

Yep...get back to me when you can find Hakeem even coming remotely CLOSE to ANY of those achievements.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

That ANYONE would claim that Hakeem had a greater peak, or CAREER, than Chamberlain.

You know what I'm going to say don't you.

Preach it buddy Preach it :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[jlauber]

You know what I'm going to say don't you.

Preach it buddy Preach it :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

I don't have to. All ANYONE needs to do is to look at the NBA RECORD BOOK...

Here are some 72 of his 130 NBA RECORDS...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Career_achievements_of_Wilt_Chamberlain

[QUOTE]NBA scoring recordsSee also: List of National Basketball Association top individual scoring season averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association top rookie scoring averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association players with most points in a game
See also: List of individual National Basketball Association scoring leaders by season

NBA Record - Most Points Per Game in a season (50.4 in the 1961-62)
Chamberlain also holds the next two highest with 44.8 in 1962-63 and 38.4 in 1960-61.

NBA Record - Most Points in a season (4,029 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 3,586 in 1960-61

NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Game (100 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Half (59 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most 50 Point Games in a season (45 times in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 30 in 1962-63. No other player has had more than 10.

NBA Record - Most 40 Point Games in a season (63 times in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 52 in 1962-63. Michael Jordan holds third with 37 in 1986-87.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Points Per Game (7)
Record shared with Michael Jordan.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 60 Point Games (32 times)
Kobe Bryant is in second place with 5.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 50 Point Games (118 times)
Michael Jordan is in second place with 31.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 40 Point Games (271 times)[21]
Michael Jordan is in second place with 173.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 50 Point Games (7 times from December 16, 1961-December 29, 1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next three longest with 6 in 1962, 5 in 1961, and 5 in 1962

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 40 Point Games (14 times from December 8, 1961-December 30, 1961 and also 14 times from January 11, 1962-February 1, 1962)
Chamberlain also has the next most with 10 from November 9, 1962 through November 25, 1962

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 30 Point Games (65 from November 4, 1961-February 22, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two longest streaks with 31 in 1962 and 25 in 1960.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 20 Point Games (126 from October 19, 1961-January 19, 1963)

Chamberlain holds the next most with 92 from February 26, 1963 through March 18, 1964.
NBA Record - Most points per game by a rookie (37.6 in 1959-60)

NBA Record - Most points by a rookie (2,707 in 1959-60)

NBA Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (58 on January 25, 1960 and 58 on February 21, 1960)

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 20,000 Points (499 achieved in 1966)
Michael Jordan, at 620 games, took the second fewest games.

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 25,000 Points (691, achieved on February 23, 1968 against the Detroit Pistons)
Michael Jordan, at 782 games, took the second fewest games.

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 30,000 Points (941, achieved on February 16, 1972 against the Phoenix Suns).

NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the league in field goals made (7 from 1959-60 through 1965-66)
Shared with Michael Jordan

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a season (1,597 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next three spots with 1,463 in 1962-63, 1,251 in 1960-61, and 1,204 in 1963-64

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a season (3,159 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next four highest with 2,770, 2,457, 2,311, and 2,298.

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Game (36 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 31, and is tied (with Rick Barry) at third with 30

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Game (63 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two most with 62 and 60.

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Half (22 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Half (37 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962 (2nd half)

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Quarter (21 in the 4th quarter vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Free Throws Made in a Game (28 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Record shared with Adrian Dantley
NBA Record - Most seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (9)

NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (6 from 1959-60 through 1964-65)

NBA Record - Most Free Throws Attempted in a season (1,363 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain also holds the next four spots with 1,113, 1,054, 1,016, and 991.

NBA Record - Most Free Throws Attempted in a Game (34 vs. the St. Louis Hawks on February 22, 1962)
Chamberlain also holds second place with 32 on March 2, 1962.

NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a seven game series (113 vs. the St. Louis Hawks in 1964)

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a game (24 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Record shared with John Havlicek and Michael Jordan

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a game (48 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Rick Barry

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a half (25 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Elgin Baylor and Michael Jordan

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a three game series (104 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1960)

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a five game series (159 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1962)

NBA All-Star Game Record - Points in a game (42 in 1962)

NBA All-Star Game Record - Field goals in a game (17 in 1962)
Record shared with Michael Jordan and Kevin Garnett

NBA All-Star Game Record - Field goals in a half (10 in 1962)

NBA All-Star Game Record - Free throw attempts in a game (16 in 1962)

Chamberlain also holds the second most attempts in an All-Star Game with 15 in 1960.

[edit] Other selected scoring facts2nd highest career scoring average (30.06)

[jlauber]

Continuing...


NBA rebounding recordsSee also: List of National Basketball Association top individual rebounding season averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association top rookie rebounding averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association players with most rebounds in a game

NBA Record - Career Total Rebounds (23,924)
NBA Record - Career Rebounds Per Game (22.9)

NBA Record - Most seasons leading the league in rebounds (11)

NBA Record - Most seasons with 1,000 or more rebounds (13)

NBA Record - Rebounds Per Game in a season (27.2)

Chamberlain also holds the next two highest averages with 27.0 in 1959-60 and 25.7 in 1961-62)

NBA Record - Total Rebounds in a season (2,149 in 1960-1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next six highest totals.

NBA Record - Rebounds in a game (55, Philadelphia Warriors vs. Boston Celtics, November 24, 1960)

NBA Record - Most rebounds per game by a rookie in a season (27.0)

NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a season (1941)

NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (45 on February 6, 1960)
Chamberlain, as a rookie, also grabbed 43 rebounds in one game, 42 in two others, and 40 in another.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).
Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)
Also an NBA Finals record.

NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a five game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).
Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 7-game playoff series (220 against the Boston Celtics in 1965).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (35 against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960)

Scored a then-playoff record 53 points (still a rookie record) in the same game (a game 5 victory).

NBA All-Star Game Record - Most career rebounds in the NBA All-Star game (197).

NBA All-Star Game Record - Most rebounds in a half (16 in 1960).
Record shared with Bob Pettit

[edit] Other selected rebound facts2nd most consecutive seasons with 1,000+ rebounds (10) — [record held by Bill Russell]

2nd most rebounds in a half (31 vs. the Boston Celtics on November 24, 1960) — [record held by Bill Russell]

2nd most rebounds in a quarter (17 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on February 5, 1960) — [record held by Nate Thurmond, 2nd place is shared with three performances by Bill Russell]

2nd most rebounds in a 3-game NBA Playoff series (69 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1961) — [record held by Bill Russell]

2nd most rebounds in a 4-game NBA Playoff series (106 vs. the Cincinnati Royals in 1967) — [record held by Bill Russell]

2nd most consecutive games 20+ rebounds in the NBA Finals (12 over a series of games in the 1964, 1967, and 1969 finals) — [record held by Bill Russell]

2nd most consecutive games 30+ rebounds in the NBA Finals (2 in 1967 finals, 2 in 1969 finals) — [record held by Bill Russell; 2nd place is also shared by Bill Russell]

2nd most rebounds in a 5-game NBA Finals (vs. Boston Celtics in 1967) — [record held by Bill Russell]

2nd most rebounds in a 7-game NBA Finals (vs. Boston Celtics in 1969) — [record held by Bill Russell]

3rd highest rebounding average in an NBA Finals series (28.5 in 1967) — [first two spots held by Bill Russell]

Chamberlain is the only player to grab more than 2,000 rebounds in a single season: 2,149 rebounds in the 1960-61 season and 2,052 in 1961-62.

Chamberlain's 1961-62 season stat line: 4,029 points (50.4 ppg) and 2,052 rebounds (25.7 rpg).



Continuing...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

[QUOTE]NBA versatility recordNBA Record - Most consecutive triple-doubles (9) (March 8-20, 1968)

[edit] Other selected versatility factsOnly player in NBA history to record a double-triple-double (20+ points, 20+ rebounds, 20+ assists in a game)
On February 2, 1968 against the Detroit Pistons, he logged 22 points, 25 rebounds and 21 assists.[22]

Only player in NBA history to record a quadruple double-double (meaning two of either 40 points, 40 rebounds, or 40 assists in a single game) (A feat he performed 5 times).

On November 4, 1959, Chamberlain, in his third game in the NBA, scored 41 points and grabbed a then-rookie record 40 rebounds against the Syracuse Nationals.

On January 15, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Boston Celtics.

On January 25, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored an NBA rookie record 58 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.

On February 6, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed an NBA rookie record 45 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.

On December 8, 1961, Chamberlain scored a then-record 78 points and collected 43 rebounds against the Los Angeles Lakers.

After critics called him a one-dimensional (or even selfish) player, Chamberlain led the league in total assists the next season, 1967

[Bigsmoke]

better than 1992 MJ?

nah

and I was actually living in TX when Hakeem won his 2 titles.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Dude ... stop. Let it go ...

[millwad]

How about this quote from JERRY WEST, circa 2000...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html



As for not winning over Russell...

Maybe these edges in HOFers will give you a better idea...and remember, even with these HUGE margins...Wilt still took mostly inferior rosters, some vastly so, up agains those HOF-laden teams, and to FOUR game seven's...

1960 Russell with a 7-3 edge
1961 Russell with an 8-3 edge
1962 Russell with a 7-3 edge
1963 Russell with a 9-1 edge (YES, NINE to ONE...and that does not include a HOF coach, either...while Chamberlain was mostly saddled with incompetent coaches.)
1964 Russell with an 8-2 edge (and Wilt's HOF teammate was ROOKIE Nate Thurmond, playing part-time, out of position, and shooting .395)
1965 Russell with a 6-2 edge
1966 Russell with a 5-3 edge
1967 Russell with a 7-3 edge (and YET, Wilt CRUSHED Russell, and LED his team to a 4-1 rout of the Dynasty.)
1968 Russell with a 6-3 edge
1969 Russell with a 5-3 edge

So, in REALITY, Russell had either a SOLID margin in surrounding talent, or an OVERWHELMING edge. Furthermore, Russell had DEEPER benches, year-after-year.

Granted, not all of Russell's HOF teammates were deserving. Ramsey, Howell, KC Jones, and Satch Sanders would not have made it to the HOF without Russell. Having said that, however, Sanders and Jones were considered the best defensive forward and guard in the NBA in their years in the league.

As for Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Sam Jones, and Havlicek...my god...MULTIPLE 20+ pph seasons (and Cousy and Sharman had them BEFORE Russell BTW...while Havlicek EXPLODED AFTER Russell, with MANY 20+ seasons, including 29 and 28 ppg seasons.) ALL were HOF players, with, or withOUT Russell (and in fact contributed HEAVILY to RUSSELL making the HOF.)

None other than John Wooden claimed that had Wilt had Russell's rosters, he likely would have won 11 rings, too. Leonard Koppett, one of the greatest sport's historians of all-time, claimed that had Wilt had Russell's rosters, in the same exact seasons, that he would have gone 13-0.

At the very LEAST, had Russell and Wilt swapped rosters in Wilt's first six seasons, Chamberlain would have held a 6-0 edge in rings over that span.

Please...do some RESEARCH before making these RIDICULOUS posts.

And as for quoting Simmons...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160893

Probably the LEAST knowledgeable writer in sport's history.

Wilt still didn't win crap with him being the top scorer of his team, and he has one finals MVP which pretty much says that he wasn't even the best performer of his team in the finals one of the two years he won and he wasn't the topscorer on the other roster even when he won finals mvp..

You make it sound like he never had any help and did it all by himself which is bogus.

In '67 when Wilt won it all with the 76ers he had tons of help and his teammates could ball!

In the regular season he had Hal Greer scoring 22 points per game, Chet Walker scoring 19 points per game, Billy Cunningham scoring 18.5 points per game and Wali Jones scoring 13 a game. Wilt wasn't alone at all, he had freaking 3 guys by his side that averaged 18+ points per game..

And if that wasn't enough, in the playoffs Wilt's scoring average dropped as usual and Greer took over scoring 27.7 a game (6 more points than Wilt), then he had Chet Walker scoring 21.7 a game, Wali Jones scoring 17.5 points a game and finally Cunningham scoring 15 points a game. And Wilt wasn't even the finals MVP..

The second time he won it he had Goodrich averaging 25.9 points per game, Jerry West averaging 25.8 points a game and Jim McMillan scoring 18.8 points per game and finally himself posting a careerlow 14.8 points per game.

In the playoffs he had Goodrich and West scoring more than 20 a game and McMillan giving them 19 points per game and Wilt dropped his scoring to 14.7 a game..

Bottom line, you're bullshitting if you're trying to make Wilt look like som poor fella playing all alone, he wasn't alone at all.. Instead of blaming it all on his teammates you should blame it on Wilt for dropping in stats the way he did, ALL HIS STATS DECREASED in the playoffs beside his rebounding, think about that...

[millwad]

Continuing...



Remember the above COMBINED is about HALF of the some 130 RECORDS that Chamberlain holds.

All those records and still only 2 rings without himself even being the top scorer on those 2 teams when it came to the playoffs.. And yeah, he wasn't even the finals MVP when he won it the first time and his playoffstats are worse in every category compared to his regularstats beside his rebounding.. All that statpadding didn't do him so good in the end..

[PHILA]

are people really serious with this? Hakeem is the most overrated player on ISH by far. Just about everywhere, not only insidehoops.


Players with greater peaks than Hakeem...

-Kareem
-Wilt
-Jordan
-Shaq
-Bird
-Magic
-Duncan

what a joke. such revisionist history going on here.

Don't forget Walton. All Olajuwon has on him is durability.

[zay_24]

Game= Wilt
Season= Wilt

Hakeem....the most OVER-RATED player on ISH. He of the ONE MVP in 18 seasons. He of the EIGHT FIRST-ROUND PLAYOFF exits. He of the player who led his team to three playoff losses to lower seeds.

ZERO scoring titles. TWO rebound titles (and BADLY outrebounded by a TEAMMATE in one season AND post-season.) ZERO FG% titles.

The greatest peak my ass!
actually the most overrated player on ish is tim duncan

[millwad]

Game= Wilt
Season= Wilt

Hakeem....the most OVER-RATED player on ISH. He of the ONE MVP in 18 seasons. He of the EIGHT FIRST-ROUND PLAYOFF exits. He of the player who led his team to three playoff losses to lower seeds.

ZERO scoring titles. TWO rebound titles (and BADLY outrebounded by a TEAMMATE in one season AND post-season.) ZERO FG% titles.

The greatest peak my ass!

But Wilt's 2 titles without him being the leading scorer of his team in the playoffs those years was.. Statpadding like Wilt did while not being able to win anything other that personal accolades is what you call the greatest peak ever...

Plus the fact that Wilt always had better stats in the regular season, he is the same dude that dropped 15 points in scoring average between the regular season and the playoffs and among all the guys in this discussion Wilt is the only one winning without being the number one option on offense (beside Russell but he won 11 titles vs Wilts 2...)..

Wilt only has 1 finals MVP, he wasn't even the best performer in the finals on his own team when he won, get outta here..

[millwad]

Just about everywhere, not only insidehoops.



Don't forget Walton. All Olajuwon has on him is durability.

Ehm, don't be retarded.. Walton's did never even score over 20 a game in any of his seasons, Hakeem's career average is by far superior to the best season Walton ever had and lets not even start to talk about the playoffs..

[jlauber]

But Wilt's 2 titles without him being the leading scorer of his team in the playoffs those years was.. Statpadding like Wilt did while not being able to win anything other that personal accolades is what you call the greatest peak ever...

Plus the fact that Wilt always had better stats in the regular season, he is the same dude that dropped 15 points in scoring average between the regular season and the playoffs and among all the guys in this discussion Wilt is the only one winning without being the number one option on offense (beside Russell but he won 11 titles vs Wilts 2...)..

Wilt only has 1 finals MVP, he wasn't even the best performer in the finals on his own team when he won, get outta here..

Where to begin...

Let's start with the Finals MVP. Wilt WOULD have been a UNNANIMOUS Finals MVP in the '67 Finals, had the award EXISTED back then. He DOMINATED at BOTH ends of the court (as he ALWAYS did.) Barry missed a potential game-winner in the clinching game six for the Sixers...and why? Because of WILT's DEFENSE. Of course, Chamberlain just CRUSHED Thurmond in that series, as well. Granted, he "only" outscored him by a 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg margin, BUT, he outshot Thurmond by an eye-popping .560 to .343 margin. He also outrebounded Nate in FIVE of the six games, including one game with 38 rebounds. AND, in that clinching win, Chamberlain put up a 24 point game, on 8-13 shooting, with 24 rebounds...while Nate "The Great" scored 13 points on 4-13 shooting with 22 rebounds.

And, this came after Chamberlain just BURIED Russell in the ECF's. In THAT series, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; he POUNDED Russell on the glass, per game, 32.0 rpg to 23.0 rpg; he outassisted Russell, per game, by a 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg (HEY...that is a TRIPLE_DOUBLE SERIES); AND, he outshot Russell by a massive .556 to .358 margin. Furthermore, in the clinching game five win, Wilt outscored Russell, 29-4; he outshot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; he outassisted Russell, 13-7; and he murdered him on the glass, 36-21.

BTW, in the first round of the playoff in '67, all Chamberlain did was average 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg (HEY...a TRIPLE DOUBLE SERIES), and shot .612 from the floor. BTW, the man "that did not lead his team in scoring in the playoffs" opened the playoffs with games of 41 points (on 19-30 shooting), and 37 points (on 16-24 shooting.) Only a complete IDIOT would claim that Wilt could not have scored MUCH more.

Counting his REGULAR season, in which he was in the TOP-5 in NINETEEN of the 23 statistical categories, and LED in TWELVE of them, this simply HAS to be the GREATEST season in NBA history. He not only LED his TEAM to a 68-13 record, and then a DOMINATING title...he LED them in SCORING, REBOUNDING, ASSISTS, FG%, MPG, and had stats like defensive rebounds, offensive rebounds, BLOCKS, etc. been official stats, ...well he would have LED the NBA in ever MORE categories.

During that season, he shot .683 from the floor, in a league that shot .441. And his nearest competitor shot .521...which is a .162 differential...which just happens to be the largest margin in NBA history. (His .244 over the league average would have been the record too, and by large margin, except he outshot the league average in his LAST season by a .271 margin.) He also had the HIGHEST SCORING GAME in the league that year, with a 58 point game (on 26-34 shooting.) He also had the THREE highest "perfect games" in NBA HISTORY (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18.) In addition to that, he made 35 straight FGAs, which, again, is a record.

BTW, for those that say his scoring dropped that season, ...Rick Barry, who won the scoring title that season, "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him have the title. Vurtually EVERYONE in the league that season KNEW that Wilt could have EASILY scored 40 ppg. Incidently, as an example, in an early season game against the Warriors, and Thurmond, and in a game in which they trailed at halftime...Wilt's coach asked Wilt to stop his facilitating, and to take over offensively. Chamberlain responded with 24 second half points, en route to 30, with 26 rebounds, and 12 blocks. Quite simply, Wilt COULD have scored MUCH more.


That '67 team was a GREAT team...at least players 1-6. They had no depth (except 6th man and HOFer Billy Cunningham.) Which brings up TWO very important points. When Wilt was FINALLY surrounded with players that could match Russell's Celtics, and with Wilt just DESTROYING Russell (and to be brutally honest, Wilt almost always outplayed Russell in the post-season)...well, you see an example of "what could have been."

Which brings me to the second point. That Sixer team was rolling along to a second straight NBA title in 67-68. They RAN AWAY with the best record in the league again, going 62-20 (Boston was a distant second at 54-28.) However, in the post-season, their invincibility was blown apart by INJURIES. In the first round of the playoffs, Cunningham broke his wrist, and was out of the post-season. Of course, all Wilt did was lead BOTH teams in scoring, rebounding, AND assists. And even without Cunningham, they jumped on the Celtics, going up 3-1 in the ECF's. That is when the roof caved in. In that game five, BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones sustained leg injuries, and were worthless the rest of the series. On top of that, Wilt, himself, was nursing an ASSORTMENT of injuries...and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three thru the remainder of the series. Then, in the clinching game seven loss, Wilt's teammates (what was left of them) completely IGNORED Chamberlain, especially in the second half...when he got a TOTAL of NINE TOUCHES (and only TWO in the 4th quarter.) And with his TEAMMATES collectively shooting 33%, the Sixers lost that game seven by FOUR points. CLEARLY, a HEALTHY Sixer squad probably duplicates their 4-1 blowout of Boston from the season before.

BTW, how did Wilt do in that '68 season? All he did was again finish in the TOP-5 in NINETEEN of the 23 statistical categories (and once again, had blocked shots, and offensive and defensive rebound stats been kept...well, THREE more.) And once again, he LED in TWELVE of those categories...including ASSISTS. He was the first, and ONLY, center to ever accomplish that feat. As for him "only" scoring 24.3 ppg...all anyone needs to know is that he had the FOUR highest scoring games in the league that season (52, 53, 53, and 68 points.)

Not bad for BACK-TO BACK seasons, huh? Oh, and BTW, how about his 65-66 season? For the IDIOTS that claim that his scoring hurt his team's...well, he LED the Sixers to the BEST record in the league in the 65-66 season and in SCORING (at 33.5 ppg.) Not only that, but he also LED the NBA in rebounding (as he almost always did), and set a then-record FG% mark of .540 (of course, he SHATTERED that mark the very next season...and would later shatter even that mark in his LAST season.)

Which I always found fascinating. Chamberlain has been accused (by the ignorant anyway...including Bill Simmons) of being a "stats-padder." For example, in his 62-63 season, he LED the NBA in 15 of the 22 statistical categories, including scoring by a whopping +10.8 ppg margin (on 44.8 ppg.) Not only that, but he LED the league in rebounding, and set a then record FG% mark of .528. And yet, his TEAM finished 31-49. Granted, they lost 35 games by single digits, and their differential was only -2.1...but in any case...what changed from that '63 season, with a last place team, and his '66 team, in which he did the EXACT same things (leading the league in scoring, rebounding, and set a FG% record?) Well, the answer is pretty obvious. He was playing with arguably the WORST roster in NBA history in that '63 season. Even more remarkably, he then took that same cast of clowns to a 48-32 mark the very next season (and by leading the league in scoring), and to the Finals...where, despite outscoring Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounding him, per game, 27-25, his TEAM lost two close games, and the series, 4-1.

Continued...

[PHILA]

Ehm, don't be retarded.. Walton's did never even score over 20 a game in any of his seasons, Hakeem's career average is by far superior to the best season Walton ever had and lets not even start to talk about the playoffs..
I forgot to mention Doc, LeBron, Kobe, Big O, West, among a few others. :applause:


Wilt only has 1 finals MVP, he wasn't even the best performer in the finals on his own team when he won, get outta here..
Award didn't exist in '67.

[jlauber]

The uneducated, like Millwad obviously NEVER saw Chamberlain completely trash the NBA. I get a kick out of goofballs like him (and Simmons) who claim that Wilt's stats "dropped" in the post-season.

Sure, when a player is scoring 50 ppg, well, if he "drops" to 35 ppg, that is considered a decline? Let's examine just that one season shall we? First of all, the fact was, Chamberlain was drafted by a LAST-PLACE team. In his rookie year, he took a LAST PLACE team, that had gone 32-40, to a then team record of 49-26. And two years later, he almost SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried that crappy roster to a 49-31 record, and to the ECF's, where they faced the 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers. Of course, during the regular season, Wilt averaged an eye-popping 50.4 ppg. HOWEVER, in his regular season games against RUSSELL and those Celtics, he "only" averaged 38 ppg. So, when he "only" averaged 34 ppg in the '62 ECF's, it was not nearly as dramatic a decline as someone like Simmons would like to illustrate.

BTW, in the first round of the playoffs, Wilt's COACH changed his game plan, and had Wilt passing much more. And, with the best-of-series tied, he then went back to having Wilt take over the scoring load. All Wilt did was hang a 56-35 game in that clinching game five win. (Incidently, he also had a 50-35 game against RUSSELL in a "must-win" game five of the '60 ECF's.)

Back to the '62 ECF's. Ok, we know that Chamberlain "only" averaged 34 ppg in that series. BUT, explain to me how that Warriors team, with a vastly inferior roster, could take the HOF-laden Celtics to a game seven, TWO-POINT loss? Furthermore, in the post-season that year, Wilt did not have ONE teammate who shot better than .397 from the field, and in fact, most of them shot MUCH worse. And yet, somehow, Chamberlain nearly took a team that was, as Tom Meschery stated, "player-for-player, Boston had the better team, and it was ONLY because of Wilt that we nearly won that series."

So, here was Wilt, with a 35.0 ppg average, AND, 26.6 rpg (which he ALWAYS ELEVATED in the post-season), and being criticized for a "drop" in his numbers.

Yep, a Wilt that had FOUR post-season's of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg...as well as another two of 29.3 ppg and 28.0 ppg. He also post-season series, such as his seven game series in the '64 playoffs against the Hawks (and FIVE-TIME All-Star, Zelmo Beatty) of 38.6 ppg and 23.0 rpg. Or a 38 ppg and 37 ppg averages against Syracuse in '61 and '62. Or the fact that he averaged 30+ ppg against Russell on THREE times (and 29 ppg in another series.) In fact, he had a 30-30 series against Russell in the '65 playoffs (30 ppg and 31 rpg in a seven game series, in which his 40-40 team lost a game seven to the 62-18 Celtics by ONE-POINT.) Wilt also had a FOUR 50+ point playoff games (which is second only to MJ), and a TON of 40 point games.

Now, Wilt's post-season scoring pretty much mirrored his regular season scoring, but he missed out on making the playoffs in his '63 season, in a year in which he averaged 44.8 ppg...simply because he had absolutely ZERO help. Had his team won a few more games, there was a good chance that Wilt would have raised his post-season scoring by at least 3-4 ppg with just that one series. That would have given Wilt a career post-season average of 26-27 ppg. Furthermore, Wilt only played in 52 post-season games, out of 160, in his "scoring" prime.

And that brings up another interesting point. Had Wilt's '62 team been able to score just three more points in that seventh game of the ECF's, then Wilt would have had the good fortune of facing the Lakers in the Finals. We already know that Russell had a 30-40 game seven against LA in the Finals that year, but one can only imagine what kind of numbers that Wilt might have put up on the Lakers. During the regular season in '62, Wilt averaged 51.5 ppg against LA in eight games. In fact, he had THREE games of 60+, including a MONSTER game of 78-43.

And that is important in these discussions. Wilt seldon had the luxury of facing an average center in his post-seasons. In fact, he faced a HOF center in TWO-THIRDS of his 160 post-season games. And he not only faced Russell and his HOF-laden Dynasty EIGHT times (covering 49 post-season games...or nearly ONE-THIRD of his post-season games against Russell), but he faced him in the first or second rounds almost every year. He wasn't able to build up his post-season stats like Kareem and Hakeem, with early round cannon-fodder. And, here again, 49 games against Russell, out of 160 post-season games...and then 18 against Reed, 17 against Thurmond, 11 against Kareem, and six against Bellamy. Then, he also faced HOF centers like Lovellette and Embry in the post-season, and even Jerry Lucas in two series in which Lucas played center (and then in two more series on top of that)...as well as five-time all-star Zelmo Beatty and four time all-star Red Kerr. There were only a handful of games in which Chamberlain faced even an average center, and most all of those came later in his career, and after his knee surgery.

Of course, Wilt could still score after his "scoring seasons", but it was mostly his COACHES who cut back his shooting. Even then, he still had some huge games and series. In the '70 Finals, and playing on one leg, he averaged 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 from the field. And in a "must-win" game six, he hung a 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game on the Knicks.

CLUTCH?

How about these games?


1960 Game 3 vs. Nationals (best of 3 series at the time): 53 points in a 20 point win.

1962 Game 5 vs. Nationals: 56 points, 35 rebounds in a 17 point win.

1962 Game 6 vs Celtics: 32 points in a 10 point win

1962 Game 7 vs Celtics: 22 points, 21 rebounds in a 2 point loss

1964 Game 5 vs. Hawks: 50 points in a 24 point win.

1964 Game 7 vs. Hawks: 39 points, 26 rebounds, 12 blocks in a 10 point win.

1965 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 26 rebounds in a 6 point win

1965 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 32 rebounds in a 1 point loss

1966 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 46 points, 34 rebounds in an 8 point loss

1967 Game 2 vs. Royals: 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists in a 21 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Royals: 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 1 vs. Celtics: 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, 12 blocks in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists in an 11 point win.

1967 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists in a 24 point win.

1968 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 27 rebounds in an 18 point win. Little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAMS in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame centers Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed. Apparently Willis used to tremble at the mere sight of Luke Jackson in the MSG tunnel pre-game.

1968 Game 7 vs Celtics: 14 points, 34 rebounds in a 4 point loss (This despite two touches in the entire 4th quarter, the smartest move Russell has ever made in his career switching himself over to guard Chet).

1969 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 18 points, 27 rebounds in a 2 point loss (Head coach leaves him on the bench due to a personal grudge.)

1970 Game 5 vs. Suns: 36 points, 14 rebounds in a 17 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Suns: 30 points, 27 rebounds, 11 blocks in a 35 point win (helped lead Lakers back from 1-3 deficit)

1970 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 45 points, 27 rebounds in a 22 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Knicks: 21 points, 24 rebounds in a 14 point loss

(Understand that he should have not even been playing in the 1969-70 season after his injury, but was able to rehab his knee in time with his workouts in volleyball, a sport he would later become a Hall Of Famer in as well.)

1971 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 25 points, 18 rebounds in an 11 point win

1971 Game 5 vs. Bucks: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 6 blocks in an 18 point loss without Elgin Baylor or Jerry West. (Alcindor in this game had 20 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks).

1973 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 21 points, 28 rebounds in a 3 point win (Bulls had the ball and a one point lead with 30 or so seconds left in the 4th. Norm Van Lier goes up for the shot only to have it rejected by the "big choker" Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain blocked Van Lier's shot right to Gail Goodrich down court for the go ahead basket. Is there any mention of this clutch defensive play from Chamberlain in Bill Simmons "Book Of Basketball"?

1973 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 23 points, 21 rebounds in a 9 point loss (a hobbled Jerry West finished with 12 points)


Yep...Wilt was a "choker" and a "failure."

Incidently, you can add game five of the '60 ECF's (Philadelphia was down 3-1, so it was a must-win game), and he responded with a 50-35 game against Russell in a 128-107 win. Keep in mind that game was in his rookie season, and he faced a Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers.

And, IMHO, his greatest effort came against Kareem in game six of the WCF's. He held Kareem to 16-37 shooting, while going 8-12 himself, and scoring 22 points with 24 rebounds. And, he absolutely took over the game in the 4th quarter, and led LA back from a 10 point deficit to a clinching four point win. He also blocked 11 shots in that game, and five of them were Kareem's sky-hooks.


Then, he won the Finals MVP by DOMINATING the Knicks in the clinching game five win with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 10 blocks, and 29 rebounds (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW.)



That was Wilt the player who "declined" in the post-season.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I forgot to mention Doc, LeBron, Kobe, Big O, West, among a few others. :applause:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but did you just state that those guys all had better peaks than Hakeem?

[Psileas]

:oldlol: , now Hakeem has become inarguably greater than Wilt, because of those 2 titles, all of which of course came against guys who had won a combined number of...0 and none of them had exactly convinced anyone of their will to win. Who cares about impact to the game and rule changing, who cares about records, who cares about Wilt changing his game according to his coaches' preferances and still dominating at will, and most importantly, who cares that prime Wilt lost his titles to a team and a guy who had already become a legend due to his will to win and that he won his first title when he beat that guy, who had already become the GOAT winner, it's all about Hakeem winning 2 titles, including 1 when the greatest winner of his own time was retired. Now that I'm thinking about it, Jordan was "lucky" to have played at the most popular position (SG) and was so exciting and athletic. If he played like a more athletic Bird (and was still black), Hakeem would have eclipsed him, too...If Hakeem had beaten Jordan just once, he'd have become the Chuck Norris of athletes. Nothing would be even close to him.

Someone wrote that Wilt today would make the Swedish league, someone else that he'd make the D-League. Then, I guess

Russell
young Kareem, at times
Hayes
Unseld
Bellamy
Reed
Thurmond
Cowens
McAdoo
Lanier
Lovelette

, whom Wilt routinely outplayed would not even make the Swedish league/DLeague, and, since 70's Kareem was better than 80's Kareem, especially mid-late 80's, this means that 80's Kareem might make the Mozambique league (old Kareem, maybe somewhere like Tasmania, playing against devils past their prime), young Hakeem and Ewing would be ranked somewhere between Sweden and Mozambique, but prime Hakeem, well he's easily Sweden material, maybe even DLeague. Magic Johnson...oh, wait, he did actually play in Sweden ;)

[PHILA]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but did you just state that those guys all had better peaks than Hakeem?I was joking. Not about Walton though.

[millwad]

I was joking. Not about Walton though.

What a retard, did you really feel it was important to bring a 3 month old thread back in the heat with a crappy post like that?:facepalm

[clipps]

I think the fact that Wilt could average those crazy numbers were a testament of the pace and level of competition back then, not of his ability.

Wilt did pretty good against Kareem, who did pretty good against Hakeem, who held his own against Shaq so Wilt might not have averaged 50ppg 20 rpg in todays league, but he would definitely be dominant against the likes off Kaman, Bogut, Bynum, etc.

[Nick Young]

except for Shaq

[OldSchoolBBall]

are people really serious with this? Hakeem is the most overrated player on ISH by far.

Players with greater peaks than Hakeem...

-Kareem
-Wilt
-Jordan
-Shaq
-Bird
-Magic
-Duncan

what a joke. such revisionist history going on here.

Kareem? Yes. Jordan? Yes. Shaq? Yes. Wilt? Yes imo but arguable. Bird? Yes imo, but arguable. Magic? No imo but arguable. Duncan? Hell no.

[scm5]

Hakeem might just be the most overrated player on this forum "right now".

As aesthetically pleasing his offensive game is, even Dwight last season, being an unpolished offensive player, might have been more effective offensively than Hakeem.

Dwight draws more fouls, putting more pressure on the other team's bigs. Dwight also has a significantly higher FG% and TS%.

I'm not saying Dwight has a better offensive game, I'm saying that he might just be more effective offensively than Hakeem was.

For peak play, it's not even close.

Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem all had higher peaks than Hakeem. Those are just players at Hakeem's position... all of which are higher on the Top 10 lists in the vast majority of lists made.

Imagine throwing MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe.... hell, even Tmac's peak play in with Hakeem's. His best seasons begin to just be one of many great seasons played by great players, not nearly good enough to be called a front runner.

[BEAST Griffin]

Get back to me when you find a regular season game in which he scored 100 pts (or even SIX of 70+), or even 32 of 60+. Get back to me when you find a playoff game in which he put up a 56-35 (in a must-win elimination game), or even a 50-35 playoff game in a must-win elimination game (and against Russell BTW), or a 46-34 game in a must-win elimination (and again, against Russell.) Or a 39 ppg -23 rpg seven game playoff series. Or perhaps a SEASON of 50 ppg (or 45 ppg), or averaging 40 ppg over his first seven seasons...COMBINED. Or a 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound FINALS game!

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem had 55 rebounds (and BTW, outrebounding Russell in that game...55-19), or a playoff game of 41 rebounds (and BTW, it was again, against Russell.) Or a 27.2 rpg regular SEASON. Or a 30 rpg POST-SEASON. Or a 32 rpg series, and against a player of the caliber of Russell no less. Or 15 of the TOTAL of 28 40+ rebound games...in NBA history (and a 7-1 H2H edge against Russell...as well as a 23-4 H2H edge against Russell in 35+ rebound games.) Or a 38 rebound FINALS game (and against Thurmond no less...as well as 27-38 Finals game against Russell.)

Get back to me when you find a 100-25 game. Or a 78-43 game. Or a 56-45 game (or FOUR 50-40 games in his career.) Or a 44-43 game as he had against Russell. Or how about this TRIPLE-DOUBLE... 53 points, 32 rebounds, and 14 assists. Or how about this TRIPLE-DOUBLE... 22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists. Or a 24-32-13-12 QUAD-DOUBLE and against Russell in the playoffs. Or a TRIPLE-DOUBLE SERIES in the '67 ECF's...and against Russell. The ONLY FOUR 50-40 games in NBA HISTORY. 55 of the TOTAL of 61 40-30...in NBA HISTORY. And 103 of the TOTAL of 131 30-30 games...in NBA HISTORY. Or a 30-30 PLAYOFF series...and against Russell (in a seven game series, in which Wilt took a 40-40 team to a game seven, ONE-point loss against the HOF-laden 62-18 Celtics!)

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem went 15-15 from the field, or 16-16 from the field, or 18-18 from the field. Or had a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting. Find me a season in which Hakeem shot .727, or .683 from the field. Find me a Finals in which he shot .625 (as well as averaging 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.)

Get back to me when you find a game in which Hakeem had 21 assists. Or a playoff game with 19 assists (and 30 rebounds.) Or a season in which he led the NBA in assists.

Find me a game in which Hakeem blocked 25 shots, or even a RECORDED 23 block game in a nationally televised game in 1968.

Yep...get back to me when you can find Hakeem even coming remotely CLOSE to ANY of those achievements.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

That ANYONE would claim that Hakeem had a greater peak, or CAREER, than Chamberlain.

I agree that Chamberlain was better but Hakeem would be closer to him stat wise if he played in the same era.

[BEAST Griffin]

:oldlol: , now Hakeem has become inarguably greater than Wilt, because of those 2 titles, all of which of course came against guys who had won a combined number of...0 and none of them had exactly convinced anyone of their will to win. Who cares about impact to the game and rule changing, who cares about records, who cares about Wilt changing his game according to his coaches' preferances and still dominating at will, and most importantly, who cares that prime Wilt lost his titles to a team and a guy who had already become a legend due to his will to win and that he won his first title when he beat that guy, who had already become the GOAT winner, it's all about Hakeem winning 2 titles, including 1 when the greatest winner of his own time was retired. Now that I'm thinking about it, Jordan was "lucky" to have played at the most popular position (SG) and was so exciting and athletic. If he played like a more athletic Bird (and was still black), Hakeem would have eclipsed him, too...If Hakeem had beaten Jordan just once, he'd have become the Chuck Norris of athletes. Nothing would be even close to him.

Someone wrote that Wilt today would make the Swedish league, someone else that he'd make the D-League. Then, I guess

Russell
young Kareem, at times
Hayes
Unseld
Bellamy
Reed
Thurmond
Cowens
McAdoo
Lanier
Lovelette

, whom Wilt routinely outplayed would not even make the Swedish league/DLeague, and, since 70's Kareem was better than 80's Kareem, especially mid-late 80's, this means that 80's Kareem might make the Mozambique league (old Kareem, maybe somewhere like Tasmania, playing against devils past their prime), young Hakeem and Ewing would be ranked somewhere between Sweden and Mozambique, but prime Hakeem, well he's easily Sweden material, maybe even DLeague. Magic Johnson...oh, wait, he did actually play in Sweden ;)

And had Wilt won some titles maybe some of his opponents would've had...0 titles??? can't both win a title...

duh

[millwad]

I agree that Chamberlain was better but Hakeem would be closer to him stat wise if he played in the same era.

Statwise Wilt was better, skillwise... NO!

[millwad]

Hakeem might just be the most overrated player on this forum "right now".

As aesthetically pleasing his offensive game is, even Dwight last season, being an unpolished offensive player, might have been more effective offensively than Hakeem.

Dwight draws more fouls, putting more pressure on the other team's bigs. Dwight also has a significantly higher FG% and TS%.

I'm not saying Dwight has a better offensive game, I'm saying that he might just be more effective offensively than Hakeem was.

To even compare Hakeem's and Howard's offensive game is a joke. Hakeem created his shots and he faced much greater competition at the center position, Howard is no where close Hakeem offensively.

And no, Dwight doesn't put more press on the other team's bigs, go and watch Hakeem in his prime..:facepalm

You realize that Hakeem has the highest point per game average in the playoffs among all the centers in NBA history? Howard doesn't come no where close to Hakeem when it comes to offense.

And talking about FG%, Howard doesn't take even close as much responsibility on the offense end compared to Hakeem, come back when Howard can carry a whole team on the offensive end without having major up and downs and when he can create his own shots every time he gets the ball in the post..




For peak play, it's not even close.

Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem all had higher peaks than Hakeem. Those are just players at Hakeem's position... all of which are higher on the Top 10 lists in the vast majority of lists made.

I agree about Kareem.. Shaq I have as a tie and it shouldn't be forgotten that Shaq faced crappy competition in his prime, really crappy.

Wilt didn't win anything 'til 67 and by then he had amazing teammates by his side, plenty of guys scoring a ton of points while being all-stars and HOF:ers. And regarding skills, he is not as skilled as Hakeem. Hakeem was definitely greater during his championshipruns than what Wilt was during his.

What do you think Hakeem did too little of to be considered a GOAT peak candidate?



Imagine throwing MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe.... hell, even Tmac's peak play in with Hakeem's. His best seasons begin to just be one of many great seasons played by great players, not nearly good enough to be called a front runner.

Peak Magic (and a combo of Kareem and Worthy) got his ass kicked in '86 in the WCF by 2nd year pro Hakeem and the Rockets who made it all the way to the finals where the Hakeem lead Rockts took it to game 6 vs Prime Bird, prime Mchale and prime Parish... Yeah, peak Tmac couldn't even make it to the 2nd round and now you're comparing him with Hakeem:facepalm

[EricForman]

I think prime Shaq was better. Also prime Jordan.

[kaiiu]

Bird, Shaq, MJ and Kareem are the only ones wit better peaks for sure

[Big#50]

MJ, Kareem, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem are my top six in peak play.
Hakeem's peak was when MJ retired.