Would you take prime Karl Malone over Dirk?

[klee]

Would you take prime Karl Malone over Dirk to play for the Mavericks in these 2011 finals? Justify.
(given that Malone has had the season to "jive" with the team)

prisoners of the moment vs. irrational supporters for legends over legends in the making

[Kblaze8855]

No. But when I said so years ago people acted like I was out of line. As if Dirk is a lot better now than he was 05-08....

But of course I hate malone. Though people say I hate dirk too...

[fatboy11]

Does Malone comes with Stockton?

[Ronin]

maybe..

[100grandman]

I would. And I'm not racist.

[Scoooter]

Nope. Unless I get Stockton too. Although probably still no.

[DMAVS41]

No.

Not because I think Dirk is clearly a better player or something, but because this Mavs team relies on Dirk's clutch play to win.

Malone never took over games in the playoffs the way Dirk has and is now.

[100grandman]

If majority says Dirk is better than Karl Malone right now.......then lets just go ahead and put Dirk in the 50 greatest already.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

I would take prime Malone over any PF in last 20 years.
if you take prime Malone over Dirk you get same amount of points with better %
,5-6 more rebs and much better D.
Then again,Dirk is heart & soul of the Mavs

[DMAVS41]

If majority says Dirk is better than Karl Malone right now.......then lets just go ahead and put Dirk in the 50 greatest already.

Dirk is in the top 25 or top 20 of all time after this year.

Top 50? LOL

[necya]

people just don't know basketball :wtf:

[creepingdeath]

No, because he is not the clutch postseason performer that Dirk is. Doesn't matter if he might be the better overall player.

[Harison]

Of course I would take Malone over Dirk. Come on now, better scorer, passer, rebounder and defender, and someone picks Dirk just because he is more clutch? Sure, then pick Dirk over Shaq and Wilt too, who cares about overall production, if only clutch matters :cheers:

To close out games I would pick someone like Pierce, Ray, Melo, etc., and Malone + clutch player combo would be way better than Dirk + any of those players.

[BlackJoker23]

dirk is a lot better than karl.

[Scholar]

No.

Not because I think Dirk is clearly a better player or something, but because this Mavs team relies on Dirk's clutch play to win.

Malone never took over games in the playoffs the way Dirk has and is now.

Agreed.

I think this Dallas team wouldn't even had made the Finals without a player like Dirk. I'm not saying that Karl Malone wouldn't have been able to lead a team to the Finals on his own, but this current Mavs team wouldn't find use in a PF who can't shoot 3's, clutch shots, etc.

[necya]

Agreed.

I think this Dallas team wouldn't even had made the Finals without a player like Dirk. I'm not saying that Karl Malone wouldn't have been able to lead a team to the Finals on his own, but this current Mavs team wouldn't find use in a PF who can't shoot 3's, clutch shots, etc.

and this mavs team would not play more than 5 games against the Jazz.
serioulsly, the level of play is just a shame. Dirk looks like MJ without playing the PF position correctly. Malone or Barkley would put 40pts per game just in the low post.

[BlackJoker23]

and this mavs team would not play more than 5 games against the Jazz.
serioulsly, the level of play is just a shame. Dirk looks like MJ without playing the PF position correctly. Malone or Barkley would put 40pts per game just in the low post.
dirk doesn't need to play the pf position "correctly" karl as a prototypical pf wasnt better than dirk as a perimeter oriented pf. how does that make you feel?

fact is. dirk is a lot more reliable than karl ever was. the mavs wouldnt last 5 games against the jazz? you're right. they'd beat them in 4. give dirk someone like stockton and we'll see what happens when he has someone to take pressure off of him and create offense for himself and others.

:lol @ karl malone.
http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Reggie-Miller-choke.jpg

[IGOTGAME]

No. But when I said so years ago people acted like I was out of line. As if Dirk is a lot better now than he was 05-08....

But of course I hate malone. Though people say I hate dirk too...

well, Dirk is a good deal better now than he was in 05. He has added multiple parts to his game.

[DMAVS41]

well, Dirk is a good deal better now than he was in 05. He has added multiple parts to his game.

In some ways he's better.

In some ways he's worse.

Overall I'll take 06 and 09 Dirk over current Dirk, but its really close.

[FindingTim]

Dirk all day

[Kblaze8855]

Since 05 hes gotten better finishing with contract when he drives. But hes gotten no better at it since like 07. And hes better passing off the dribble. But hes done nothing else. And hes generally stopped rebounding for long stretches as well. Hes on a basic level been the same player for 5 years.

[DMAVS41]

Since 05 hes gotten better finishing with contract when he drives. But hes gotten no better at it since like 07. And hes better passing off the dribble. But hes done nothing else. And hes generally stopped rebounding for long stretches as well. Hes on a basic level been the same player for 5 years.

Yep.

[Data1000]

if you take prime Malone over Dirk you get same amount of points with better %
,5-6 more rebs and much better D.


Career field goal percentage in the playoffs: Malone .463
Nowitzki .465

Career rebound ave in playoffs:
Malone 10.7
Nowitzki 10.4

[GOBB]

If majority says Dirk is better than Karl Malone right now.......then lets just go ahead and put Dirk in the 50 greatest already.

Dirk is a top 30 great of all time. If you didnt put him in the top 50? Well, congrats on waking up out of your deep coma! :banana:

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Of course I would take Malone over Dirk. Come on now, better scorer, passer, rebounder and defender, and someone picks Dirk just because he is more clutch? Sure, then pick Dirk over Shaq and Wilt too, who cares about overall production, if only clutch matters :cheers:

To close out games I would pick someone like Pierce, Ray, Melo, etc., and Malone + clutch player combo would be way better than Dirk + any of those players.

Do you ever post anything accurate?

Playoff averages:

26/10/3 for Dirk

25/11/3 for Malone

Efficiency:

47/39/89 59% TS for Dirk

46/16/74 53% TS for Malone

Dirk is far more clutch as well.

I have no problem with someone taking Malone over Dirk all time. No problem at all.

But please don't make shit up. No need for it.

[PP34Deuce]

Karl Malone was not clutch and is the deifnition of Front Runner. guy looked amazing when the game was easy for him, when pressure came he crumbled and im not just talkin about against the bulls in mid 90s.

Seriously of the PFs the only PF I cant see Dirk surpassing is Duncan due to rings,accolades,and his impact.

I can see Dirk surpassing Barkley,KG,Mchale, and Malone.

[IGOTGAME]

In some ways he's better.

In some ways he's worse.

Overall I'll take 06 and 09 Dirk over current Dirk, but its really close.

In the ways that are important to me:

-leadership
-defense
-scoring on smaller players in the post
-getting better at passing out of his spin
-dealing with contact
-post game

he is better. what happened on 06 wouldnt have happened to the guy we are watching right now. This version has learned and adjusted to become a more complete player.

[DMAVS41]

In the ways that are important to me:

-leadership
-defense
-scoring on smaller players in the post
-getting better at passing out of his spin
-dealing with contact

he is better. what happened on 06 wouldnt have happened to the guy we are watching right now. This version has learned and adjusted to become a more complete player.

Well, I agree with some of this for sure.

However, this version of Dirk couldn't beat prime Duncan and the 06 Spurs. This version of Dirk wouldn't be able to put up 37 and 15 in a road game 7 against a team that good.

Like I said, some things about him are better....some things are worse.

Overall? His impact has been very similar for about 5 or 6 years now.

[IGOTGAME]

Well, I agree with some of this for sure.

However, this version of Dirk couldn't beat prime Duncan and the 06 Spurs. This version of Dirk wouldn't be able to put up 37 and 15 in a road game 7 against a team that good.

Like I said, some things about him are better....some things are worse.

Overall? His impact has been very similar for about 5 or 6 years now.

what basis do you have to say this? he just lead this Mavs team past the two time defending champions while putting up a dominant performance. Everything that happened in the series was a direct result of how the Lakers were playing Dirk.

what exactly about Dirk is worst?

[catch24]

what basis do you have to say this? he just lead this Mavs team past the two time defending champions while putting up a dominant performance. Everything that happened in the series was a direct result of how the Lakers were playing Dirk.

what exactly about Dirk is worst?

^

Dirk put up 33/12, 40/5, and 28/14 in three HUGE (one being a close out) road games against POR/LA/OKC...

I believe he's an all-around tougher/better player also.

[SCdac]

Well, I agree with some of this for sure.

However, this version of Dirk couldn't beat prime Duncan and the 06 Spurs. This version of Dirk wouldn't be able to put up 37 and 15 in a road game 7 against a team that good.

Like I said, some things about him are better....some things are worse.

Overall? His impact has been very similar for about 5 or 6 years now.

Dirk put up 37 points in nearly 50 minutes of game play when you consider it was an over-time game in 2006. He put up 48 points in 40 minutes, and 40 points in 45 minutes earlier in this current post season, so I don't think it's beyond him to put up that amount if he's able to get off at least 15 free throw attempts (because they're like automatic points), regardless of the competition. Dirk was foolishly fouled by Ginobili in that Game 7 and the Spurs in that series, diverting from their regular season style of play, went small and Dirk went off on them. He's probably declined in athletic, agility, wear and tear kind of ways, but no doubt he's improved in other areas. If anything, he's gotten better in the area of "mental toughness", back in 06 and 07 he had some serious collapses at the tail end of his respective runs.

[DMAVS41]

what basis do you have to say this? he just lead this Mavs team past the two time defending champions while putting up a dominant performance. Everything that happened in the series was a direct result of how the Lakers were playing Dirk.

what exactly about Dirk is worst?

That was against the 06 Spurs dude with prime Tim Duncan. Are you honestly comparing that to any of the teams that the Mavs have played this year.

Its not at all comparable.

What is Dirk worse at? Rebounding hugely. Dirk was a significantly better rebounder back in 06.

Dirk isn't nearly as athletic now.

Dirk can't play as many minutes. Dirk gets tired and loses his legs if he has to go over 40 at times now. In the past, Dirk could go for 45 minutes with ease.

Its just the nature of the game man. As you get older you lose some things.

You didn't watch Dirk in 06 if you think he's much better now. He was clutch back then. He was smart back then. He was very similar in overall impact.

[Bird]

I'm going to have to go with Dirk.

Malone was a great, great PF, but I don't think he would run the pick and roll as effectively with the Mavericks, nor would his inability to step his game up when it mattered have helped this team.

Dirk's passing ability, his shooting from anywhere on the floor, amazing free throw and close out skills are what make him better for THIS series, than Malone would be.

[BlackJoker23]

That was against the 06 Spurs dude with prime Tim Duncan. Are you honestly comparing that to any of the teams that the Mavs have played this year.

Its not at all comparable.

What is Dirk worse at? Rebounding hugely. Dirk was a significantly better rebounder back in 06.

Dirk isn't nearly as athletic now.

Dirk can't play as many minutes. Dirk gets tired and loses his legs if he has to go over 40 at times now. In the past, Dirk could go for 45 minutes with ease.

Its just the nature of the game man. As you get older you lose some things.

You didn't watch Dirk in 06 if you think he's much better now. He was clutch back then. He was smart back then. He was very similar in overall impact.
he didn't watch dirk in 06? he's been on this board since 06 and saw his team get eliminated by the mavs in 7 games. so lets use some sense here, he atleast saw dirk for 7 games back in 06. you on the other hand................

[DMAVS41]

^

Dirk put up 33/12, 40/5, and 28/14 in three HUGE (one being a close out) road games against POR/LA/OKC...

I believe he's an all-around tougher/better player also.

In 2003....

Dirk had two huge game 7's in wins.

31 and 11 against the Blazers.

30 and 19 against the Kings.

Dirk's career is full of big games like the ones before. He's always been really clutch. He's always been a big game performer.

People just forget.

I respect your opinion and others, but I really don't think you guys have seen enough games to make the claims you do. Most of what I hear sounds a lot like "media speak"....

[IGOTGAME]

That was against the 06 Spurs dude with prime Tim Duncan. Are you honestly comparing that to any of the teams that the Mavs have played this year.

Its not at all comparable.

What is Dirk worse at? Rebounding hugely. Dirk was a significantly better rebounder back in 06.

Dirk isn't nearly as athletic now.

Dirk can't play as many minutes. Dirk gets tired and loses his legs if he has to go over 40 at times now. In the past, Dirk could go for 45 minutes with ease.

Its just the nature of the game man. As you get older you lose some things.

You didn't watch Dirk in 06 if you think he's much better now. He was clutch back then. He was smart back then. He was very similar in overall impact.

Yes, I'm comparing the two time championship Lakers with the 2006 Spurs.

Dirk may be half a step slower, but he is also much stronger and plays better post defense. That combined with the fact that he is a much better leader now combined with my last post is enough for me to conclude that he is a better player.


he didn't watch dirk in 06? he's been on this board since 06 and saw his team get eliminated by the mavs in 7 games. so lets use some sense here, he atleast saw dirk for 7 games back in 06. you on the other hand................

I have been on here talking about Dirk since the old board. I have watched Dirk's career the same way I have watched every big stars career sans the guys on the Lakers. I obviously watch way more Lakers games. Unlike IndianGuy Id rather watch my team, then watch another team play.

Its not a matter of stats, it is skill set. His skill set now allows him to play from different spots and alter defenses in different ways. The fact that 06 couldnt happen again, is enough to say he is better. He has improved too many facets of his game including leadership.*

*he is no longer kicking over exercise bikes.

[DMAVS41]

he didn't watch dirk in 06? he's been on this board since 06 and saw his team get eliminated by the mavs in 7 games. so lets use some sense here, he atleast saw dirk for 7 games back in 06. you on the other hand................

On the other hand what?

You people act like Dirk is just now doing these things. Its simply not true.

You don't average 26/10/3 for your career in the playoffs and just all of a sudden get better over night.

Dirk has absolutely been playing at this level since the 06 season.

[westsideozzie]

Dirk can't fuch with Timmy...

[DMAVS41]

Yes, I'm comparing the two time championship Lakers with the 2006 Spurs.

Dirk may be half a step slower, but he is also much stronger and plays better post defense. That combined with the fact that he is a much better leader now combined with my last post is enough for me to conclude that he is a better player.

The 06 Spurs were so much better than the team the Mavs beat in the playoffs this year its a joke.

The difference this year compared to the last 4 years since 06 is that Dirk's supporting cast is better and is playing better.

Dirk has been playing at a very similar level now for 5 years.

Some things are better. Some things are worse.

[catch24]

In 2003....

Dirk had two huge game 7's in wins.

31 and 11 against the Blazers.

30 and 19 against the Kings.

Dirk's career is full of big games like the ones before. He's always been really clutch. He's always been a big game performer.

People just forget.

I respect your opinion and others, but I really don't think you guys have seen enough games to make the claims you do. Most of what I hear sounds a lot like "media speak"....

You're probably right. I'll admit I haven't watched every Mavs game since he's made a name for himself, but... from the ones that I have seen, and there have been many, the guy just looks more assertive. Using the "eye test", Dirk can withstand physicality better and reads defenses MUCH faster. 48 and 40 points within 4 days? That's getting it done, lol.

The media don't influence my opinions; I just go by what I see. You've seen more Dirk and Mavs games though, so it's not like I'm gonna say you don't know what you're talking about.

[SCdac]

imo, it's not hard to notice Dirk has improved in intangible, yet highly important, parts of his game. It's not all about numbers, and it's not an insult. Players gain more experience the more their in the league, and his desperation for a ring is showing too. Dirk has always been a great scorer, but he's become more resilient on offense and more savvy and better at controlling the offense he's a part of. His passing has improved, not just the act of passing but when to pass and when not to. I don't know where he compares to Karl Malone, but I would put him in a tier closer to the Mailman than say Duncan.

[jstern]

No, simply because of the way Dirk is playing in the clutch.

And if it was really my decision, no, because I get a bad vibe from Malone.

[zay_24]

Malone lost in the finals twice to a poor mans tony allen :roll:

[ThaSwagg3r]

Either Malone is getting underrated or Dirk is getting overrated. I would take Dirk in the final last 5 minutes of a game, but for the first 43 I'll take Malone all day everyday.

For this current Mavericks team I would take Dirk over him though.

[The Judge]

Maybe. Malone could get dirty. Something Dirk lacks. Malone would throw 'bows and let his knees accidentally hit your groin. He would get physical and intimdate other teams. Nobody is intimidated by Dirk. That's why his teams are always considered soft. He's a finesse player.

Malone later on could also hit that fadeaway that Dirk can. Not to the same consitency, but it was there.

On the flip-side, Malone didn't have the clutch factor that Dirk does. With the game on the line, Dirk has ICE in his veins.

[Mr. Jabbar]

No. Malone never delivered when it mattered the most. Needless to say, as a laker fan, watching him during his last years as a Laker was the final nail in the coffin of a big stage shrinker/ring chaser.

[NBASTATMAN]

On this team I would take Dirk but overall I would take Karl Malone over Dirk.. Though I may change my mind when Dirk's career is over..

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Dirk kicks ass,there's no argue about that but this thread becomes blasphemous

[necya]

Dirk kicks ass,there's no argue about that but this thread becomes blasphemous

yeah, since the first post.

[Round Mound]

I would take Malone. He is a better all around player. Dirk is an a great offensive player, clutcher than Malone but if i had Stockton creating i`d wan`t Malone for fast pace shots.

[HylianNightmare]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/741/135/586839_display_image.jpg

completly different players that bring differnt things to thier teeams

[ThaRegul8r]

I don't care to have Karl Malone on any team of mine, so that would naturally color my response.

[atljonesbro]

Dirk. He's so dynamic, and great scorer, and clutch when it matter. Plus Dirk is a good rebounder too. Malone may be better defensively, but the NBA is an offensive league. Offense is more important than defense. Also give Dirk Stockton and he would be even better.

Plus people love to overrate players that played in the 80's and 90's.

[-playmaker-]

Dirk and it's not even close...

I am old, I have watched malone since he was a rookie...I fully know what Malone was all about...Dirk is just a MUCH better team player, he brings more to the table than malone ever did...and I don't care about numbers

[-playmaker-]

Plus people love to overrate players that played in the 80's and 90's.
no doubt...

some deserve the hype, like MJ obviously...but a lot of the others get praised like Gods a bit too much

[imlmf]

LOL

malone would absolutely rape the heat's front court, 35 ppg on 55% and 12 rpg i'm talking about

[Jacks3]

I'd take Dirk. Malone isn't that impressive to me. He seems the sort of player who'll accumulate great stats through the course of game but never truly dominate at a level his numbers would suggest. Not the kind of guy who u can go to for 5 minutes straight and have him score over and over again like Dirk. Sorta of a very rich man's Carlos Boozer.

[alenleomessi]

if i already have great pg i would take Malone if not then probably Dirk

[Ne 1]

I'd take Dirk. Malone isn't that impressive to me. He seems the sort of player who'll accumulate great stats through the course of game but never truly dominate at a level his numbers would suggest. Not the kind of guy who u can go to for 5 minutes straight and have him score over and over again like Dirk. Sorta of a very rich man's Carlos Boozer.

Great post. To be honestly a lot of these past players get unmerited props and are put up on a pedestal on some paying homage to past greats stuff.

I think most of it is people looking at the 1990s through their rose-tinted nostalgia glasses and remember players from back then to be better than they actually were.

[Scoooter]

Malone wasn't great in the playoffs. Dirk consistently is. Malone also had Stockton with him for the majority of his career.

[thomaspynchon]

dirk is a better defender, better passer, more clutch, a better shooter

[SCdac]

interesting head to head stats ... kinda similar to each other's... 2 of the last 21 games were with LA

Dirk, 9-12 , 38 minutes per game

20.6 PPG (44.3 FG%), 9.2 RPG, 2.2 APG, 1.3 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 87.9 FT%

Malone, 12-9 , 37.3 minutes per game

22.7 PPG (47.9 FG%), 9.3 RPG, 3.9 APG, 1.2 SPG, 0.6 BPG, 76.5 FT%

Dirk's team did knock a 37 year old Malone's team out of the playoffs in 2001 as well, in a best of 5... Dallas got alot help from Nash/Finley/etc in that series, while dirk dropped some 30 point games of his own to lead the team. Malone lead the Jazz in scoring in every game, averaged 28 ppg, 9 rpg, and 3.5 apg on 40% shooting, while Bryon Russell averaged 14 ppg and Stockton averaged slightly under 10 ppg.

Game 4:

Dirk - 33 points (52.6 FG%), 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 5 threes
Nash - 27 points (53.3 FG%, 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 threes, 2 steals
Finley - 20 points (53.8 FG%), 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 threes

Game 5:

Finley - 33 points (54.2 FG%), 6 rebounds, 1 assists, 3 threes
Howard - 19 points (40.0 FG%), 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal
Dirk - 18 points (27.3 FG%), 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 threes, 1 steal


The Mavericks rallied from double-digit deficits in all five games. Utah survived the first two games at home, but the Mavericks seized the series momentum by winning twice in Dallas.

This time, Dallas trailed 46-31 1:01 before halftime and 71-57 after the third quarter. But the Mavericks came back again, trimming the deficit to 77-76 with a 15-2 run over a span of 4:13 in the fourth.

"We never stopped fighting," Finley said. "As far behind as we got, we knew from the previous games we could come back."

Steve Nash, held scoreless through three periods, hit two 3-pointers in the burst, the second pulling the Mavericks within one point with 6:17 remaining. He tied it at 79 with a 3-pointer with 4:03 to play.

"At halftime, we just said 'Stay positive, and we did all the way,"' Nash said.

[Harison]

Dirk's team did knock a 37 year old Malone's team out of the playoffs in 2001 as well, in a best of 5... Dallas got alot help from Nash/Finley/etc in that series, while dirk dropped some 30 point games of his own to lead the team. Malone lead the Jazz in scoring in every game, averaged 28 ppg, 9 rpg, and 3.5 apg on 40% shooting, while Bryon Russell averaged 14 ppg and Stockton averaged slightly under 10 ppg.
Interesting you mention that, young team of star beat 37 yrs Malone and 38 Stockton? Its hardly praise worthy.

Whats more interesting, Malone in '01 had similar stats as Dirk in these Playoffs, one of the best Playoffs of his life.

Malone, 37 years old, 27.6/8.8/3.4
Dirk, 32 years old in prime, 28.0/8.1/2.6

Do you think Dirk can have such games as Malone 5 years later? No, probably not.

As much as some are bashing Malone for Playoffs, do you even watched Malone play? He had plenty of phenomenal series, more than Dirk has. If he havent met Jordan twice when he was in the Finals, he probably would have couple of rings now as well, would Dirk have won against MJ? Of course not. :pimp: Malone choked vs superior Jordan's team, Dirk choked vs inferior Wade's team.

Dirk doesnt have as much impact on the game as Malone had, thats a fact. Just because he is more clutch doesnt offset in any way his inferior overall impact. I doubt Playoffs is a positive for Dirk as well, Malone didnt had such epic meltdown as Dirk had.

[thomaspynchon]

Interesting you mention that, young team of star beat 37 yrs Malone and 38 Stockton? Its hardly praise worthy.

Whats more interesting, Malone in '01 had similar stats as Dirk in these Playoffs, one of the best Playoffs of his life.

Malone, 37 years old, 27.6/8.8/3.4
Dirk, 32 years old in prime, 28.0/8.1/2.6

Do you think Dirk can have such games as Malone 5 years later? No, probably not.

As much as some are bashing Malone for Playoffs, do you even watched Malone play? He had plenty of phenomenal series, more than Dirk has. If he havent met Jordan twice when he was in the Finals, he probably would have couple of rings now as well, would Dirk have won against MJ? Of course not. :pimp: Malone choked vs superior Jordan's team, Dirk choked vs inferior Wade's team.

Dirk doesnt have as much impact on the game as Malone had, thats a fact. Just because he is more clutch doesnt offset in any way his inferior overall impact. I doubt Playoffs is a positive for Dirk as well, Malone didnt had such epic meltdown as Dirk had.

You're such a clown. Dirk is having probably the best postseason since Jordan.

You don't have to put down Dirk because he's encroaching upon your idol Duncan. Just respect him for being by far the best player this postseason.

[alenleomessi]

imo its safe to say that griffin will be top 2 pf of all time
after timmy there isnt really anyone with complete accomplishments

[DMAVS41]

Interesting you mention that, young team of star beat 37 yrs Malone and 38 Stockton? Its hardly praise worthy.

Whats more interesting, Malone in '01 had similar stats as Dirk in these Playoffs, one of the best Playoffs of his life.

Malone, 37 years old, 27.6/8.8/3.4
Dirk, 32 years old in prime, 28.0/8.1/2.6

Do you think Dirk can have such games as Malone 5 years later? No, probably not.

As much as some are bashing Malone for Playoffs, do you even watched Malone play? He had plenty of phenomenal series, more than Dirk has. If he havent met Jordan twice when he was in the Finals, he probably would have couple of rings now as well, would Dirk have won against MJ? Of course not. :pimp: Malone choked vs superior Jordan's team, Dirk choked vs inferior Wade's team.

Dirk doesnt have as much impact on the game as Malone had, thats a fact. Just because he is more clutch doesnt offset in any way his inferior overall impact. I doubt Playoffs is a positive for Dirk as well, Malone didnt had such epic meltdown as Dirk had.

A few things:

1. Wade's team was better. Simple truth. He had Shaq still playing at a high level and nobody else on the Mavs even approached that impact. He also had Pat Riley vs Avery. Again...not even comparable. Wade's team was superior.

2. Did Stockton and Malone lose to Jordan every year? Nope. They only made two finals playing their entire career together. Dirk has made two finals with rarely playing with a top 30 player in the league. Malone played with a top 30 player of all time. LOL

3. Dirk is a better playoff performer than Malone overall. That simply can't be debated. Dirk has slightly better stats and has done more with less. Dirk is one of the best elimination game players of all time and has still not lost a game 7 (5-0). This playoff run is better than any Malone ever had given the circumstances and the difference in clutch play is huge. Malone got worse at the end of games......Dirk gets better. Huge huge huge difference.

4. Malone has longevity on Dirk at this point. I have no problem with someone taking Malone, but the reasons you use are kind of weak. Not to mention, if you gave Dirk a top 30 player of all time for his entire career the results difference would be staggering. Dirk might have won 3 or more titles playing with a legend the last 11 years. Sadly we won't know. We do know with Malone though. Couldn't get it done one time and only made the finals twice.......LOL

[SCdac]

Interesting you mention that, young team of star beat 37 yrs Malone and 38 Stockton? Its hardly praise worthy.

Whats more interesting, Malone in '01 had similar stats as Dirk in these Playoffs, one of the best Playoffs of his life.

Malone, 37 years old, 27.6/8.8/3.4
Dirk, 32 years old in prime, 28.0/8.1/2.6

Do you think Dirk can have such games as Malone 5 years later? No, probably not.

As much as some are bashing Malone for Playoffs, do you even watched Malone play? He had plenty of phenomenal series, more than Dirk has. If he havent met Jordan twice when he was in the Finals, he probably would have couple of rings now as well, would Dirk have won against MJ? Of course not. :pimp: Malone choked vs superior Jordan's team, Dirk choked vs inferior Wade's team.

Dirk doesnt have as much impact on the game as Malone had, thats a fact. Just because he is more clutch doesnt offset in any way his inferior overall impact. I doubt Playoffs is a positive for Dirk as well, Malone didnt had such epic meltdown as Dirk had.

I wasn't hating on Malone, I was just trying to put things in perspective. In head to head matchups he had better games, despite being past his prime. Malone played with less talent at that time than Dirk, and it should be noted. I think they're much closer in talent and rank than they are far apart.

[BlackJoker23]

Whats more interesting, Malone in '01 had similar stats as Dirk in these Playoffs, one of the best Playoffs of his life.

Malone, 37 years old, 27.6/8.8/3.4
Dirk, 32 years old in prime, 28.0/8.1/2.6

Do you think Dirk can have such games as Malone 5 years later? No, probably not.

what's even more interesting is your blatant anti-dirk agenda. post the complete stats. malone shot 40.5% against a soft dallas d, 48% ts including a bricked gamewinner in the winner take all game 5.

dirk is shooting 50% with a ts of 62. and ts is more accurate in this case since dirk takes a lot of 3s and gets to the line a lot.

yup. similar stats. :rolleyes:

[SCdac]

what's even more interesting is your blatant anti-dirk agenda. post the complete stats. malone shot 40.5% against a soft dallas d, 48% ts including a bricked gamewinner in the winner take all game 5.

dirk is shooting 50% with a ts of 62. and ts is more accurate in this case since dirk takes a lot of 3s and gets to the line a lot.

yup. similar stats. :rolleyes:

still, Dirk shot 3/11 in that Game 5 and for the series shot basically the same FG% (.40)... After advancing to the next round, he shot 3/13 against the Spurs in a Game 1 loss... I don't speak for anyone but myself, but pointing out some not so great games in a Malone-Dirk matchup is not anti-dirk agenda... it's just, what happened.

[Crown&Coke]

Karl Malone Im taking over any PF not named Timmy Duncan to start my team.

But for this team, Dirk is their offense down the stretch. Now Malone's "choking" in big moments is a bit overblown (other than the game 6 turnover which MJ made the game winner that sealed the title), Dirk for this Dallas team is exactly what they need.

Prime Malone still played the high post far too often for my tastes, I can have Dirk do that who is a better shooter. I got Chandler sucking up thoes boards, thats the only thing Malone does that I would take over anything Dirk does in this series.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Dirk shot 3/11 in that Game 5 and for the series shot basically the same FG% (.40)...

That was Dirk's "first" year really in the NBA. (Actually his third but his first year was the lockout year and year two he was a borderline starter.) And his very first time in the playoffs.

To make sense out of any "head to head" meetings between Dirk and Malone is meaningless. Dirk was either too green, or Malone was too old.

[SCdac]

That was Dirk's "first" year really in the NBA. (Actually his third but his first year was the lockout year and year two he was a borderline starter.) And his very first time in the playoffs.

To make sense out of any "head to head" meetings between Dirk and Malone is meaningless. Dirk was either too green, or Malone was too old.

I agree to not put too much weight on it.... totally.

But, in this topic, it has some merit. They played each other 20+ times. And Dirk had played 200+ NBA games leading up to those playoffs.

They were at different stages of their careers, but come on they were both still NBA players, both former lottery picks, and both the best players on their teams...

we're not exactly talking about them matching up in meaningless High School games, right?

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

They played each other 20+ times. And Dirk had played 200+ NBA games leading up to those playoffs..

And most of those head to head games came from Dirk's rookie and second year.


They were at different stages of their careers, but come on they were both still NBA players, both former lottery picks, and both the best players on their teams...

Either you really didn't watch the Mavs much from say 97-2001 or you are really hating on Dirk.

98-99: Dirk's rookie year. He wasn't even close to the best player. In fact, he probably would have been in somewhere in the 5-10 range on the team.

99-00: Dirk's second year. Rapid improvement. He jumped up to perhaps top 3. But he wasn't the best player that year either.

00-01: Dirk's "breakout" year. Dirk was the most talented player on the team but he still looked at Finley as the leader. And they were pretty much neck and neck on the "best player" mark.

So yeah, it is meaningless to compare their head to head matchups.

[Round Mound]

Offensively Dirk is better than Karl Malone but Malone was a Better All Around Player: defender, rebounder, passer

Ofcourse Barkley before injuries was better than both

[TheCorporation]

Dirk. Duh

lol wtf

[SCdac]

So yeah, it is meaningless to compare their head to head matchups.

LOL, ok man, of course it is... :rolleyes:

but Hell, why don't we just erase his first few seasons from the history books entirely? if they really don't mean anything when you start comparing him to other players and peers

It's not like Dirk hadn't dropped dozens of high 20 point/30 point games up until then or anything (sarcasm). In 2001 he made his first All-NBA team and was top-5 in offensive win shares and offensive rating. I agree he's gotten way better since then... but these match ups aren't worthless. Dirk put up 20 and 12 in his first ever playoff game so we're not talking some scrub here.

When I said he was their "best player", I meant in the playoffs in 2001, I should have been more clear.

[GOBB]

Dirk and it's not even close...

I am old, I have watched malone since he was a rookie...I fully know what Malone was all about...Dirk is just a MUCH better team player, he brings more to the table than malone ever did...and I don't care about numbers

If Karl Malone played for the Mavs this isnt typed. So of course you dont care about the numbers. And save us the "I've seen Malone since he was a pup". Stop frontin and start being real. You are a Mavs fan who has watched Dirk and like his game better than Malone.

End of story.

[magnax1]

Easily. My God, people really get sucked into the moment to much. Karl Malone was barely a worse scorer, much much better passer, better rebounder, much much better defender.
Dirk is clearly behind Duncan, Malone, KG and Barkley in their best years.

[DMAVS41]

Easily. My God, people really get sucked into the moment to much. Karl Malone was barely a worse scorer, much much better passer, better rebounder, much much better defender.
Dirk is clearly behind Duncan, Malone, KG and Barkley in their best years.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. No.

LOL

[Unstoppabull]

Yes Dirk PWNS him!

[magnax1]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. No.

LOL
What's Dirk better at? Scoring and what else?

[ballerz]

No i wouldn't. Malone had the privilege to play with one of the greatest point guards ever

[Tarik One]

Karl Malone Im taking over any PF not named Timmy Duncan to start my team.

But for this team, Dirk is their offense down the stretch. Now Malone's "choking" in big moments is a bit overblown (other than the game 6 turnover which MJ made the game winner that sealed the title), Dirk for this Dallas team is exactly what they need.

Prime Malone still played the high post far too often for my tastes, I can have Dirk do that who is a better shooter. I got Chandler sucking up thoes boards, thats the only thing Malone does that I would take over anything Dirk does in this series.

That was his problem. In both finals vs the Bulls, Malone played away from the low post where he was most effective and settled for too many jumpers. It was as if the pressure (and Bulls effectiveness against the pick and roll) psyched him out of his game.

Great players rise to the occasion in big games/series and Karl failed.

[DMAVS41]

What's Dirk better at? Scoring and what else?

1. That is a terrible way to break down players. Its about overall impact.

2. Scoring and clutch play a wide margin. Rebounding is a wash in the playoffs also.

I'm not going to say Dirk is better than Malone.

Saying Malone is easily better than Dirk is silly though. Especially when Dirk has been the better playoff performer.

I have no problem with someone taking Malone. But there is nothing clear or easy about it.

[magnax1]

1. That is a terrible way to break down players. Its about overall impact.

2. Scoring and clutch play a wide margin. Rebounding is a wash in the playoffs also.

I'm not going to say Dirk is better than Malone.

Saying Malone is easily better than Dirk is silly though. Especially when Dirk has been the better playoff performer.

I have no problem with someone taking Malone. But there is nothing clear or easy about it.
No, it's the only way to logically break down their overall impact. Saying Dirk is better when he didn't even do as much on offense, is idiotic. He scored a few more points, was more efficient, and that's it. I know you like Dirk, but he's not on the Barkley/Malone/KG/Duncan level. Never was, never has been. He's like Carmelo, in that he can score points but never has been amazing at anything else for his position. He can get 10 or 11 rebounds in the playoffs, but he can't help an offense run more efficiently with his passing, he can't play all NBA defense. The only thing that Dirk has by a wide Margin is clutch play, scoring is pretty close, and would go to Malone if not for his drop in efficiency in the playoffs. Dirk just doesn't impact a game like Malone did. He drops 25 points consistently. Great, well Malone drops 25 points consistently, has the offense run through him for portions of the game, and plays great All NBA level defense. So where is your case for Dirk?

[DMAVS41]

No, it's the only way to logically break down their overall impact. Saying Dirk is better when he didn't even do as much on offense, is idiotic. He scored a few more points, was more efficient, and that's it. I know you like Dirk, but he's not on the Barkley/Malone/KG/Duncan level. Never was, never has been. He's like Carmelo, in that he can score points but never has been amazing at anything else for his position. He can get 10 or 11 rebounds in the playoffs, but he can't help an offense run more efficiently with his passing, he can't play all NBA defense. The only thing that Dirk has by a wide Margin is clutch play, scoring is pretty close, and would go to Malone if not for his drop in efficiency in the playoffs. Dirk just doesn't impact a game like Malone did. He drops 25 points consistently. Great, well Malone drops 25 points consistently, has the offense run through him for portions of the game, and plays great All NBA level defense. So where is your case for Dirk?

My case for Dirk is that he performs better overall in the playoffs. He's now had as much playoff success as Malone in 71 less playoff games.

Malone played with a top 30 player of all time. Dirk has rarely played with a top 30 player in the game.

Dirk is far more clutch and more efficient overall. You can run a crunch time offense through Dirk. Through Malone? Not so much if you want to win.

And forget just biased opinions. Check all the advanced numbers.

They are so similar in impact. Similar numbers across the board and similar team success.

How can you possibly say Malone easily? Easy....you are too biased to have a real conversation.

That is like me saying Malone is easily better than Barkley. Just not true.

[KingBeasley08]

I would easily take Malone over Dirk

[magnax1]

My case for Dirk is that he performs better overall in the playoffs. He's now had as much playoff success as Malone in 71 less playoff games.

Malone played with a top 30 player of all time. Dirk has rarely played with a top 30 player in the game.

Dirk is far more clutch and more efficient overall. You can run a crunch time offense through Dirk. Through Malone? Not so much if you want to win.

And forget just biased opinions. Check all the advanced numbers.

They are so similar in impact. Similar numbers across the board and similar team success.

How can you possibly say Malone easily? Easy....you are too biased to have a real conversation.

That is like me saying Malone is easily better than Barkley. Just not true.
You're just completely ignoring the fact that they literally are only close in one aspect of the game. Scoring. That's it. And Dirk's ahead in clutch play, because that's basically just part of scoring. So 2 facets if you're being nice. Is Dirk anywhere near the defender? No Malone has multiple all defensive teams, while Dirk has consistently been below average throughout his career. Rebounder? No, Malone averages more rebounds per game throughout his playoff career despite playing another 8 or so years (or whatever it is) Passing? No, Dirk can pass out of doubles well, but you can't run an offense through him, and he doesn't have near the ability of Malone. Then there is intangibles, where Malone once again dominates. He sets amazing screens, can play without the ball and in pick and rolls similarly to Dirk, can get buckets without having a play run for him, or without having the ball in his hands.
But your case just consists of restating that Dirk is a better scorer/Clutch scorer. I'm agreeing, but that's one part of the game, literally everything else goes to Malone, but you say I'm biased? Your argument just doesn't make sense. That's nice that he's won more games, but Dirk has had extremely talented teams his whole career, and while yes, Malone did have Stockton, he never had stacked teams with 5 guys who averaged nearly 20 ppg the year before like Dirk in 04, Never had 2 all stars like Nash and Finley, or depth like Dirk has this year or in 08.

[DMAVS41]

You're just completely ignoring the fact that they literally are only close in one aspect of the game. Scoring. That's it. And Dirk's ahead in clutch play, because that's basically just part of scoring. So 2 facets if you're being nice. Is Dirk anywhere near the defender? No Malone has multiple all defensive teams, while Dirk has consistently been below average throughout his career. Rebounder? No, Malone averages more rebounds per game throughout his playoff career despite playing another 8 or so years (or whatever it is) Passing? No, Dirk can pass out of doubles well, but you can't run an offense through him, and he doesn't have near the ability of Malone. Then there is intangibles, where Malone once again dominates. He sets amazing screens, can play without the ball and in pick and rolls similarly to Dirk, can get buckets without having a play run for him, or without having the ball in his hands.
But your case just consists of restating that Dirk is a better scorer/Clutch scorer. I'm agreeing, but that's one part of the game, literally everything else goes to Malone, but you say I'm biased? Your argument just doesn't make sense. That's nice that he's won more games, but Dirk has had extremely talented teams his whole career, and while yes, Malone did have Stockton, he never had stacked teams with 5 guys who averaged nearly 20 ppg the year before like Dirk in 04, Never had 2 all stars like Nash and Finley, or depth like Dirk has this year or in 08.

Yep.

Its only 1 area.

Malone gets .3 more rebounds for his career in the playoffs and .6 more assists.

Yep....its only close in 1 area.

Forget that dirk blows malone out of the water in things like overall efficiency, PER, and win shares per 48 when it matters most.

Oh, and with the game on the line with 5 minutes to....no question you want Dirk.

But yea, just 1 area.

:facepalm

[magnax1]

Yep.

Its only 1 area.

Malone gets .3 more rebounds for his career in the playoffs and .6 more assists.

Yep....its only close in 1 area.

Forget that dirk blows malone out of the water in things like overall efficiency, PER, and win shares per 48 when it matters most.

Oh, and with the game on the line with 5 minutes to....no question you want Dirk.

But yea, just 1 area.

:facepalm
There's more to the NBA then stats, especially junk stats like PER and win shares. There is a reason I barely used stats for any of my argument.

[DMAVS41]

There's more to the NBA then stats, especially junk stats like PER and win shares. There is a reason I barely used stats for any of my argument.

There is more to the NBA than just your opinion. :confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

There is more to the NBA than just your opinion. :confusedshrug:
:lol
I hope you understand how stupid that sounds when all this is is opinion.

[knickswin]

No, it's the only way to logically break down their overall impact. Saying Dirk is better when he didn't even do as much on offense, is idiotic. He scored a few more points, was more efficient, and that's it. I know you like Dirk, but he's not on the Barkley/Malone/KG/Duncan level. Never was, never has been. He's like Carmelo, in that he can score points but never has been amazing at anything else for his position. He can get 10 or 11 rebounds in the playoffs, but he can't help an offense run more efficiently with his passing, he can't play all NBA defense. The only thing that Dirk has by a wide Margin is clutch play, scoring is pretty close, and would go to Malone if not for his drop in efficiency in the playoffs. Dirk just doesn't impact a game like Malone did. He drops 25 points consistently. Great, well Malone drops 25 points consistently, has the offense run through him for portions of the game, and plays great All NBA level defense. So where is your case for Dirk?

Let me take a moment to derail this thread with my Knicks homerism by pointing out that Carmelo is not that one dimensional at all. He's one of the best rebounding small forwards in the game--up there with Lebron and Gerald Wallace and I would say qualitatively he's better than those guys because of his unreal second jump. He also is a good passer for his position and not nearly as bad on defense as his reputation makes him out to be. Anyway, I think you're selling Dirk short in a similar manner because his rebounding numbers in the playoffs are good and his defense isn't great but it's hardly a liability.

I also don't think Karl Malone and Dirk are really that close as scorers, even if their numbers suggest they were. Last year Chris Bosh and Dirk had extremely close scoring averages, but would you say that made them equal scorers that year? You have to look at how they get those numbers. Karl Marlone had John Stockton to create for him a lot which means he was finishing plays rather than creating. That's not a knock on him and the ability to finish well in the pick and roll is incredibly valuable but that also means that he didn't demand defenses to be keyed in on him like Dirk does. That also means that when games got to situations where you needed someone to create Karl Malone was not the man to do it. Also if you're talking about intangibles, what about Dirk's ability to spread the floor with his three point shooting? Or his ability to open space for his teammates in the pick and roll (see JJ Barea versus the Lakers).

Like right now the Knicks have two players whose scoring is pretty analogous to Malone and Dirk with Amar'e and Carmelo and I will tell you that Carmelo is the better scorer easily.

[DMAVS41]

:lol
I hope you understand how stupid that sounds when all this is is opinion.

I hope you now how stupid you sound when all you want to do is go off your biased opinion and not give any credence to actual data or facts.

Sorry mate.

The burden of proof is on you if you want to say Malone is easily better than Dirk.

If you say better....i'm totally cool with it. Easily though....in the face of all the evidence. Nah man. Just a biased opinion that can't be backed up at all.

[GOBB]

No i wouldn't. Malone had the privilege to play with one of the greatest point guards ever

And all Stockton did was pass to Malone to boost his assist numbers.

[magnax1]

I hope you now how stupid you sound when all you want to do is go off your biased opinion and not give any credence to actual data or facts.

Sorry mate.

The burden of proof is on you if you want to say Malone is easily better than Dirk.

If you say better....i'm totally cool with it. Easily though....in the face of all the evidence. Nah man. Just a biased opinion that can't be backed up at all.
There is no "proof" or fact in basketball. There are stats that aren't representational of reality, because basketball isn't a sport that can be broken down into how many times some one can use 1 second to shoot the ball and make it, or the 1 second it takes to get a rebound. There are other things that happen within the game to get to that final goal of getting the ball in the basket that matter just as much or more, and when you keep saying that Dirk is better because of one thing, it's plain stupid, and ignoring everything other then the statistical evidence that doesn't represent what is happening on the court. All you've brought up is scoring, and flawed stats. You don't even deny that Malone is better at all those things, but I'm the one that's biased? You really must be kidding.

[Solid Snake]

I would. And I'm not racist.


I wouldn't, and I am racist.

[3zazer1]

Prime Karl Malone was a beast but it would be easier to build around Dirk. He's a owner's dream.

[DMAVS41]

There is no "proof" or fact in basketball. There are stats that aren't representational of reality, because basketball isn't a sport that can be broken down into how many times some one can use 1 second to shoot the ball and make it, or the 1 second it takes to get a rebound. There are other things that happen within the game to get to that final goal of getting the ball in the basket that matter just as much or more, and when you keep saying that Dirk is better because of one thing, it's plain stupid, and ignoring everything other then the statistical evidence that doesn't represent what is happening on the court. All you've brought up is scoring, and flawed stats. You don't even deny that Malone is better at all those things, but I'm the one that's biased? You really must be kidding.

Kidding about what?

Dirk is a better overall scorer. He can beat you more ways. He's been as good of a rebounder. He's a slightly worse passer but its not a huge gap. Dirk is a much better ft shooter and much better late game and big game player in the playoffs.

Regular season? Dirk has now led 11 seasons of more than 50 wins. He's put up great numbers.

These guys are virtually identical when all things are considered for overall impact.

All the stats show this. You can talk about flawed stats and everything all you want, but the stats paint a much better picture than an extremely biased person like you.

Do you understand if you want to claim someone is "easily" or "clearly" better than another player that the burden of proof is on you?

All I hear is a person with biased opinions telling me that your opinion is worth more than mine.

Sorry, that doesn't work.

If you want to take back the "easily".....i'm right there with you taking Malone over Dirk overall. I think its really close and its just personal preference when it comes down to it.

But what tangible evidence do you have? They have similar stats and have had very similar playoff and regular season success. What part of that leads you to the "easily" conclusion?

[Jasper]

second leading scorer in the history of the league

Yes Malone over Dirk for me.

You better check malone's career totals when it comes to steals , boards , and offensive boards.

[knickswin]

second leading scorer in the history of the league

Yes Malone over Dirk for me.

You better check malone's career totals when it comes to steals , boards , and offensive boards.

that's just because he played for like 80 years

[magnax1]

Kidding about what?

Dirk is a better overall scorer. He can beat you more ways. He's been as good of a rebounder. He's a slightly worse passer but its not a huge gap. Dirk is a much better ft shooter and much better late game and big game player in the playoffs.

Regular season? Dirk has now led 11 seasons of more than 50 wins. He's put up great numbers.

These guys are virtually identical when all things are considered for overall impact.

All the stats show this. You can talk about flawed stats and everything all you want, but the stats paint a much better picture than an extremely biased person like you.

Do you understand if you want to claim someone is "easily" or "clearly" better than another player that the burden of proof is on you?

All I hear is a person with biased opinions telling me that your opinion is worth more than mine.

Sorry, that doesn't work.

If you want to take back the "easily".....i'm right there with you taking Malone over Dirk overall. I think its really close and its just personal preference when it comes down to it.

But what tangible evidence do you have? They have similar stats and have had very similar playoff and regular season success. What part of that leads you to the "easily" conclusion?
Fine I'll use stats and bullshit evidence like you

Malone best statistical
31-11-3 56%
Dirk best statistical
27-9-3 48%

Dirk's 50 win years- 11
Malone- 13 (including the 99 season)

Dirk all defensive teams- 0
Malone-4

Dirk MVPs-1
Malone-2

Dirk all NBA 1st teams- 4
Malone- 12

Anybody can use stats or awards to make their case, but it's stupid. It's not as good as the eye test. Nobody but an idiot would say Dirk is close to Malone in terms of Defense or Passing, and I haven't heard you even contest that. The funny thing is that Malone's best couple seasons were nearly a decade away from his best statistical season, which is another reason why stats are useless.
The reality is this. Malone was a better passer. A lot better. In his best season he averaged nearly 5 assists, where Dirk has averaged more then 3 assists 4 times ever in his career, and malone has done so in all but his first 5 seasons.
He was a better defender. A lot better. While Dirk's knock during his career has always been that he's a poor defender, Malone made multiple all defensive teams throughout his career.
Dirk is a better scorer, by a bit, and a lot better in the clutch. I'm not going to deny that Malone is a choker, and Stockton usually was the one who made big plays if anyone in Utah did. Buy none the less, the only difference in this category is that Dirk is more efficient in the playoffs, it's pretty close.
Intangibly Malone was much better. He set some of the best screens, got other involved, and didn't score just through isos and spot ups like Dirk. He went to the block and got doubled and got the rest of the team involved much more often.
Malone was a better rebounder. He averaged 12 in his best season, and Dirk averaged less then 10 in his best.
So basically it comes down to Dirk is a better scorer, Malone for everything else you can think of. Now that you aren't going to talk about my lack of evidence instead of bringing up any useful points, exactly how is Dirk close?

[DMAVS41]

Fine I'll use stats and bullshit evidence like you

Malone best statistical
31-11-3 56%
Dirk best statistical
27-9-3 48%

Dirk's 50 win years- 11
Malone- 13 (including the 99 season)

Dirk all defensive teams- 0
Malone-4

Dirk MVPs-1
Malone-2

Dirk all NBA 1st teams- 4
Malone- 12

Anybody can use stats or awards to make their case, but it's stupid. It's not as good as the eye test. Nobody but an idiot would say Dirk is close to Malone in terms of Defense or Passing, and I haven't heard you even contest that. The funny thing is that Malone's best couple seasons were nearly a decade away from his best statistical season, which is another reason why stats are useless.
The reality is this. Malone was a better passer. A lot better. In his best season he averaged nearly 5 assists, where Dirk has averaged more then 3 assists 4 times ever in his career, and malone has done so in all but his first 5 seasons.
He was a better defender. A lot better. While Dirk's knock during his career has always been that he's a poor defender, Malone made multiple all defensive teams throughout his career.
Dirk is a better scorer, by a bit, and a lot better in the clutch. I'm not going to deny that Malone is a choker, and Stockton usually was the one who made big plays if anyone in Utah did. Buy none the less, the only difference in this category is that Dirk is more efficient in the playoffs, it's pretty close.
Intangibly Malone was much better. He set some of the best screens, got other involved, and didn't score just through isos and spot ups like Dirk. He went to the block and got doubled and got the rest of the team involved much more often.
Malone was a better rebounder. He averaged 12 in his best season, and Dirk averaged less then 10 in his best.
So basically it comes down to Dirk is a better scorer, Malone for everything else you can think of. Now that you aren't going to talk about my lack of evidence instead of bringing up any useful points, exactly how is Dirk close?

He's close because he puts up better overall numbers in the playoffs and has had more success playing with less help.

He's a better big game player.

He's far better in crunch time.

I don't really care much about regular season stuff. Especially when Dirk is one of the most successful regular season players of all time.

How is Dirk close?

What?

Better playoff numbers? Dirk
Better playoff performer? Dirk
More clutch? Dirk
Accomplished as much or more with less? Dirk

Like I said, it is close. You obviously did not watch Malone play.

That is why I can come back at you with all of the many stats that favor Dirk.
Its close.

LOL:facepalm

[pmj]

I'm not a Malone fan tbh, but I'd say it really depends on your team. If you're team has true scorers, I'd think Malone would fit in better. He's like Chandler with Lebron genetics and with a J. Can finish a PnR as good as anyone ever, great on D, rebounding, longevity, etc.

I'd choose Dirk if I wanted someone with a complete offensive game and be a go-to guy when you NEED a bucket. Not great at other stuff really, and needs true role players around him. He's obviously a lot more skilled, and has gotten better with age.

It's like comparing Blake Griffin to Dirk, just completely different even though they play the same position.

[DCL]

totally different systems.

malone lived by sloan's pick and roll with stockton.

dirk, on the other hand, makes sh!t happen. give him the ball and clear the f outta the way type of deal. malone thrived at what he did, but he never had the total all package skills to do that. he couldn't handle the rock or move like a small.

[KingBeasley08]

Ginobili is the most biased poster on this board. He isnt even a Mavs fan. hes thrown his team under the bus on several occasions to prop up Dirk

[DMAVS41]

yes.

i'm so biased to say that karl malone is not "clearly" and "easily" better than Dirk.

:facepalm

[jbryan1984]

I'll tell ya when Dirk calls it a career. Malone was good for so long, well into his 30s. Dirk is about to turn 33 so we will see how well he holds up.

[Disaprine]

easily

[DMAVS41]

Bump. From Bill Simmons today:


Dirk Nowitzki: He's already propelled himself into the top 20 and a permanent "Barkley, Malone or Nowitzki?" discussion; he's erased any lingering scars from the 2006 Finals and 2007 Playoffs; and he's clinched "one of the best clutch scorers of his generation" status. But if he wins the title with a bunch of role players? That nudges him up a level; now we'd have to discuss him with Julius Erving, Bob Pettit, John Havlicek, and maybe even Tim Duncan as one of the Greatest Forwards Ever Not Named Larry Bird. However it plays out, he's already the biggest winner from this series. You can't say enough about Dirk Nowitzki.


I guess he didn't get the memo that Karl Malone is easily better than Dirk.

:applause:

[Jacks3]

Ginobili is the most biased poster on this board. He isnt even a Mavs fan. hes thrown his team under the bus on several occasions to prop up Dirk
Truth.

[DMAVS41]

Truth.

So now Bill Simmons is biased as well?

Could it be that Malone is not easily better than Dirk?

Could that actually be the proper conclusion?

[Bigsmoke]

I would mainly because he tougher and is a better rebounder.

[Smoke117]

Karl Malone has easily become the most underrated player of his generation. Beyond this thread and its subject he gets no respect by any of these youngsters. He's a ****ing asshole as a human being, but he is a top 15-20 basketball player of all time.

[DMAVS41]

Karl Malone has easily become the most underrated player of his generation. Beyond this thread and its subject he gets no respect by any of these youngsters. He's a ****ing asshole as a human being, but he is a top 15-20 basketball player of all time.

Has anyone ever disputed that?

[SinJackal]

I'll go with Malone here. Easier to build a team around him, and while he never won a title, he got there twice (falling to Jordan) and did not suck in the playoffs 'til like his 15th season.

Dirk's the better offensive and offensive clutch player, but I think Malone's better overall and more impactful throughout the game. Neither dude is carrying you to a title without specifically building around them to near perfection, but I think it'd be an easier task with Malone. Taking nothing away from Dirk of course. . .he wouldn't be a bad choice or anything.



I would take prime Malone over any PF in last 20 years.
if you take prime Malone over Dirk you get same amount of points with better %
,5-6 more rebs and much better D.
Then again,Dirk is heart & soul of the Mavs

Definitely wouldn't take Malone over Tim Duncan.

[Smoke117]

Has anyone ever disputed that?

And Dirk isn't, so yes I would take Karl Malone in his Prime over Dirk should be everyone's answer.

[DMAVS41]

And Dirk isn't, so yes I would take Karl Malone in his Prime over Dirk should be everyone's answer.

Dirk is by many accounts. I have him in my top 20. Simmons, a respected basketball historian, has Dirk in his top 20.

Sorry. Sooner or later people will get there.

Most people are just a little slow to come around.

[IGOTGAME]

Dirk is by many accounts. I have him in my top 20. Simmons, a respected basketball historian, has Dirk in his top 20.

Sorry. Sooner or later people will get there.

Most people are just a little slow to come around.

not saying I agree or disagree but Simmons has nothing more than a fans understanding of the game. The are some important nuances you cant get from only being a stat geek and not having played/coached at a legit level.

[DMAVS41]

not saying I agree or disagree but Simmons has nothing more than a fans understanding of the game. The are some important nuances you cant get from only being a stat geek and not having played/coached at a legit level.

The average fan could not write a 700 page book on the history of basketball.

He knows a lot more than the average fan.

It doesn't mean he's right, but is just another voice.

Pippen ranked Dirk even with Malone as well. Van Guny called him one of the 25 best players ever.

The point is that is not just me. And I hate using other peoples' opinions to begin with.

The numbers and success alone make my argument, but people are so biased they aren't willing to acknowledge reality.

I've been saying this all year. People are finally coming around. It just takes time. By the end of his career, Dirk will universally be accepted as a top 20 player of all time.

[KingBeasley08]

So now Bill Simmons is biased as well?

Could it be that Malone is not easily better than Dirk?

Could that actually be the proper conclusion?
Simmons is incredibly biased. Not necessarily for this subject but have u ever heard the guy talk about wilt :lol

i mean i think wilts overrated but that guy acts like hes a scrub

[DMAVS41]

Simmons is incredibly biased. Not necessarily for this subject but have u ever heard the guy talk about wilt :lol

i mean i think wilts overrated but that guy acts like hes a scrub

Yep, he is clearly a Celtics homer and under-rates Wilt.

What could possibly be his bias here? KG is now a Celtic......and Bird is his favorite player ever.

I hate using the opinions of others for this reason, but at some point you have to when all the evidence supports Dirk being a top 25 or 20 player of all time.....

Yet people say things like Malone was "clearly" and "easily" better.

[Quotable]

I can't take dirk seriously as this crunch time playoff performer when he shot 38% and averaged only 19 ppg in the GS series as the 67 win #1 seed...

To me that will always be a huge black mark on his career.

[SinJackal]

I can't take dirk seriously as this crunch time playoff performer when he shot 38% and averaged only 19 ppg in the GS series as the 67 win #1 seed...

To me that will always be a huge black mark on his career.

Pretty much every all time great has had a poor playoff series at some point. One series doesn't mean anything to a player's entire career. If Dirk continuously played poorly, then sure. But that isn't the case.

[Quotable]

Pretty much every all time great has had a poor playoff series at some point. One series doesn't mean anything to a player's entire career. If Dirk continuously played poorly, then sure. But that isn't the case.

He's also been a below average defender/rebounder for his postion for most/all of his career which will always put him behind Malone/Barkley and Garnett for me. Barkley played bad defense but at least he was an elite rebounder.

[DMAVS41]

He's also been a below average defender/rebounder for his postion for most/all of his career which will always put him behind Malone/Barkley and Garnett for me. Barkley played bad defense but at least he was an elite rebounder.

Malone averaged .3 more rebounds than Dirk in the playoffs.

LOL

[Quotable]

Malone averaged .3 more rebounds than Dirk in the playoffs.

LOL

Are you trying to make my point for me? Dirk isn't a good rebounder.

[DMAVS41]

Are you trying to make my point for me? Dirk isn't a good rebounder.

Yes he is.

That is .3...not 3.

Dirk has been a beast throughout his career on the defensive boards in the playoffs.

Your beloved Malone averaged 10.7 per game in the playoffs. Dirk averages 10.4.

Wow....what a huge difference.

[Quotable]

Yes he is.

That is .3...not 3.

Dirk has been a beast throughout his career on the defensive boards in the playoffs.

Your beloved Malone averaged 10.7 per game in the playoffs. Dirk averages 10.4.

Wow....what a huge difference.


Again, are you making my point for me that Malone was a better rebounder?

Besides, isn't Dirk only pulling down 8 rebounds per game in this year's playoffs? And only 8.4 for his career in the regular season? Doesn't look like a good rebounder to me at all.

[DMAVS41]

Again, are you making my point for me that Malone was a better rebounder?

Besides, isn't Dirk only pulling down 8 rebounds per game in this year's playoffs? And only 8.4 for his career in the regular season? Doesn't look like a good rebounder to me at all.

You want to make an issue over that kind of difference?

LOL......ignore list.

[Quotable]

How about defense? Has Dirk ever made an all defense team?

He's at best the 5th best PF of all time, maybe 6th depending on if you consider Pettit a PF or C

[Quotable]

You want to make an issue over that kind of difference?

LOL......ignore list.

You aren't factoring in that Malone's career is already over and his last five years couldn't really get off of the floor.

Dirk's rebounding will become worse and worse as he ages. So stop making disingenuous posts

[Quotable]

Malone averaged 11.4 rebounds in the playoffs at age 35

Dirk only averages 8 rebounds per game in the playoffs at age 32:confusedshrug:

[NugzHeat3]

LOL @ Irk being better than Malone. I swear Dirk is going to be on pace for the most overrated player if the Mavs somehow win. He wasn't even the best player on the floor last night (terry was the one killing us with pick and rolls and dagger shots) yet somehow he's going to be better than Karl.

You put Irk on the Jazz and you get 0 finals appearances.

[Quotable]

LOL @ Irk being better than Malone. I swear Dirk is going to be on pace for the most overrated player if the Mavs somehow win. He wasn't even the best player on the floor last night (terry was the one killing us with pick and rolls and dagger shots) yet somehow he's going to be better than Karl.

You put Irk on the Jazz and you get 0 finals appearances.

Its kids. Everything that's happening currently has to be the best thing since sliced bread.

[SinJackal]

He's also been a below average defender/rebounder for his postion for most/all of his career which will always put him behind Malone/Barkley and Garnett for me. Barkley played bad defense but at least he was an elite rebounder.

Can't really disagree with that.

Imo it's:

1: Duncan
2/3: Barkley/Malone (whatever order)
4: KG
5: Dirk

If we're excluding the old era dudes.

[Duncan21formvp]

Would you take prime Karl Malone over Dirk to play for the Mavericks in these 2011 finals? Justify.
(given that Malone has had the season to "jive" with the team)

prisoners of the moment vs. irrational supporters for legends over legends in the making
Yes, Malone was better.

[miles berg]

Malone was in no way shape or form better than Nowitzki. Hell in Dirks first ever playoff run he dropped 33 twice on Malone. We are talking 30 months removed from being an unknown kid from Germany.

There is an "it" factor that the legends have, Dirk has it, Karl Malone doesnt. You are lying to yourself if you say you would go into a NBA Finals with Malone as your centerpiece over Nowitzki. Flat out lying. Like saying you would take LeBron over Bird.

[NugzHeat3]

Malone was in no way shape or form better than Nowitzki. Hell in Dirks first ever playoff run he dropped 33 twice on Malone. We are talking 30 months removed from being an unknown kid from Germany.

There is an "it" factor that the legends have, Dirk has it, Karl Malone doesnt. You are lying to yourself if you say you would go into a NBA Finals with Malone as your centerpiece over Nowitzki. Flat out lying. Like saying you would take LeBron over Bird.

I'm just sitting here laughing at the thought of Malone, a powerhouse, being shutdown by the Warriors. He'd eat them up.

Lets not talk about Karl's performances in the finals because Irk is not doing any better against the Bulls defense. He'd get swarmed and fold under pressure.

[Bigsmoke]

Malone averaged .3 more rebounds than Dirk in the playoffs.

LOL

not fair since you're putting Malone's "out of prime" rebounding numbers into the equation

[miles berg]

I'm just sitting here laughing at the thought of Malone, a powerhouse, being shutdown by the Warriors. He'd eat them up.

Lets not talk about Karl's performances in the finals because Irk is not doing any better against the Bulls defense. He'd get swarmed and fold under pressure.

Did Jordan go against Phil? Did Isiah have to go against Chuck Daly? Did Magic have to go against Pat Riley? Did Kobe have to go against Phil? Did Duncan have to go against Pop?

Dirk did, he had to go against the man that coached him into a superstar, Don Nelson.

Pretty sure that if Jerry Sloan had been coaching another team midway through Karls career and they met in the playoffs that Sloans team would hold Malone to something similar Nelson held Dirk to. Nelson held Dirk to 20/11 on 38% shooting in that Mavs/Warriors series. Don Nelson knew every single strength & weakness of Nowitzki and exposed them in that series.

Kinda ironic we are having this discussion since Nowitzki's first ever playoff series was a Mavs win over Utah in 2001 when both guys shot 40%, Dirk scoring 24 ppg on 16 shots a game and Malone scoring 28 ppg on 23 shots a game.

[Smoke117]

Dirk is by many accounts. I have him in my top 20. Simmons, a respected basketball historian, has Dirk in his top 20.

Sorry. Sooner or later people will get there.

Most people are just a little slow to come around.

A Mavs fan has Dirk in his top 20...no shit, Really?

[kentatm]

If majority says Dirk is better than Karl Malone right now.......then lets just go ahead and put Dirk in the 50 greatest already.


he is in the 50 greatest already.

its not even a question.

now its a matter of him making the top 20.