Theories on LeBron James: WTF?

[G.O.A.T]

Count me amongst those who now wholly believe there is no more talented player in the NBA today than LeBron James. That said, and please refrain from the hating and the jokes, there are lots of threads for those, what has happened to him the '10 Boston series and so far in the Finals? Why does he shy away from the ball? Play conservative on defense? Take almost no shots? Seem unaffected by losing?

What are your opinions, insights, theories as to why he can be so good for so much of the time and then, not fail, but simply not seem to try when the stage is biggest?

[heyhey]

he's not as great at creating his own offense as his fans would like you to belive. Against a sophistcated defense that can shut down the lane, lebron is hapless. Lebron relies on the pick and roll more than any other superstars ever in this league and if the other team defends that well Lebron can't get a shot off other than the contested jumpshot.

That's why he dissappears, cuz he actually can't do it.
Slow first step, poor footwork, not post threat, ------->inconsistent offense

[Mr. Jabbar]

I have a couple o' theories:

- Lebron not mentally strong.
- Lebron not strong mentally.
- Lebron mentally strong, not.

[Bogus_Sting]

Count me amongst those who now wholly believe there is no more talented player in the NBA today than LeBron James. That said, and please refrain from the hating and the jokes, there are lots of threads for those, what has happened to him the '10 Boston series and so far in the Finals? Why does he shy away from the ball? Play conservative on defense? Take almost no shots? Seem unaffected by losing?

What are your opinions, insights, theories as to why he can be so good for so much of the time and then, not fail, but simply not seem to try when the stage is biggest?

He is just over hyped. Not as good as the expectations on him suggest.

He is still a star in the league, but when he is said to be as good as MJ or Kobe, it is just not the case.

There is no mysterious theory or conspiracy, he just isn't on the level of those past greats he is compared to or some say he is better than. Not everyone can win and ring, or a finals MVP, or dominate every finals game they play. It just puts into perspective how good those players that have accomplished such feats really are and throwing around terms like G.O.A.T (no pun intended) should not be done so lightly.

[AlphaWolf24]

he's not as great at creating his own offense as his fans would like you to belive. Against a sophistcated defense that can shut down the lane, lebron is hapless. Lebron relies on the pick and roll more than any other superstars ever in this league and if the other team defends that well Lebron can't get a shot off other than the contested jumpshot.

That's why he dissappears, cuz he actually can't do it.
Slow first step, poor footwork, not post threat, ------->inconsistent offense


THIS...but he has developed some sort of 15' - 20' turnaround/fadeaway J (since coming into the NBA)...but it seems like he doesn't have the great confidence in it like other Past/present Greats had in their go to moves.


Most of his game rely's on speed and power to create(face up to the rim and rely on Physical to overpower your opponent) ....while that is a great combination.....I always felt the truly great ones relied more on deceptiveness rather then just bullying..

[Zambowie]

I have a couple o' theories:

- Lebron not mentally strong.
- Lebron not strong mentally.
- Lebron mentally strong, not.
:oldlol:

[AJ2k8]

Not sure about the boston series but i believe Wade and Bron have the same issues a lot of ball/shot dominant perimeter players have; They can't feed off each other or haven't figured it out yet and it's just easier to sit around and watch. It happens on every level and requires major chemistry to overcome..

[knightfall88]

Lebron is an expert at registering the right stats on paper but he's never been the player that the media hypes him up to be.

[kaiiu]

lack of handles. lack of a post game. lack of a jumper. lack of craftiness.

With athletic 7'0 footers in the paint and Marion, he cant do his go to bulldozing moves. His lack of consistent jumper is hurting him. ,


And some Lebron Stans said he was a great shooter and a better shooter than Durant :lol

[G.O.A.T]

Not saying i disagree with everything I've read in response, but my question pertains more to the difference in his approach. I agree LeBron has limitations to his offense that could and should be covered, but I more see a change in body language, style of play, demeanor etc. and that is what I am speaking to.

[AlphaWolf24]

Not saying i disagree with everything I've read in response, but my question pertains more to the difference in his approach. I agree LeBron has limitations to his offense that could and should be covered, but I more see a change in body language, style of play, demeanor etc. and that is what I am speaking to.


RED FLAG ALERT - He left a back to back 63 win team...who was in the NBA Finals 3 years prior..

now..maybe I'm way off base...but that is a definite sign right there ....

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

There is more to a player than just talent. You know what makes guys like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, etc great? It's because of their "Never back down" attitude. When the going gets tough for LeBron, he says "f*ck it why try?" He would rather just shrink instead of trying to will himself back into the game whether it be on offense or defense.

Basketball is as much of a mind game as it is a physical one...if not more so

[Kobe24Clutch]

Lebron needs to develop some offensives moves, a reliable jumpshot, postgame, footwork, if he can't bulldoze his way to the basket he can't do anything, he's getting shut down by marion.:oldlol: The guy is mentally weak for reals.

[LBJMVP]

it really is his mentality.

wade has been on fire and there has been no reason for
him to shoot because he should be passin to wade.
since wade has been playin so good while he is in the game lebron
has lost his rythm.


simple as that



im drunk as hell........... :rockon:

[kaiiu]

Not saying i disagree with everything I've read in response, but my question pertains more to the difference in his approach. I agree LeBron has limitations to his offense that could and should be covered, but I more see a change in body language, style of play, demeanor etc. and that is what I am speaking to.
Pressure. You cant shoot when your heart is racing and your knees are about to buckle

[NBASTATMAN]

I have a couple o' theories:

- Lebron not mentally strong.
- Lebron not strong mentally.
- Lebron mentally strong, not.


I AGREE.. Gotta stay true and this is about the best answer anyone can come up with.. Not having the ball in his hands is no reason to not look for it.. And when he got it he just wanted to pass.. Didn't even try to create..

[SinJackal]

Count me amongst those who now wholly believe there is no more talented player in the NBA today than LeBron James. That said, and please refrain from the hating and the jokes, there are lots of threads for those, what has happened to him the '10 Boston series and so far in the Finals? Why does he shy away from the ball? Play conservative on defense? Take almost no shots? Seem unaffected by losing?

What are your opinions, insights, theories as to why he can be so good for so much of the time and then, not fail, but simply not seem to try when the stage is biggest?

Wade has seemed a lot more uneffected by losing than LeBron has. LeBron's at least seemed upset by the losses during the press conferences. All Wade does is make excuses and act indifferent. Or mention "haters" to try and get sympathy pity while he acts apathetic during his interviews.

[greensmoke21]

Pressure. You cant shoot when your heart is racing and your knees are about to buckle
:lol this
lebron is probably a b*tch ass nikka in real life

[AJ2k8]

Not saying i disagree with everything I've read in response, but my question pertains more to the difference in his approach. I agree LeBron has limitations to his offense that could and should be covered, but I more see a change in body language, style of play, demeanor etc. and that is what I am speaking to.

As i said it's easier to sit and watch when the other ball dominant perimeter player is taking all the shots.. Difference between him and wade is that hustling and contributing off the ball comes more natural to wade, Lebron seems to need his touches to play good D or off ball offence. He's not the first star that needs touches to play good in other facets of the game though.

[Jasper]

Count me amongst those who now wholly believe there is no more talented player in the NBA today than LeBron James. That said, and please refrain from the hating and the jokes, there are lots of threads for those, what has happened to him the '10 Boston series and so far in the Finals? Why does he shy away from the ball? Play conservative on defense? Take almost no shots? Seem unaffected by losing?

What are your opinions, insights, theories as to why he can be so good for so much of the time and then, not fail, but simply not seem to try when the stage is biggest?
This post tells me you don't feel he is an elite player or super star.
The only weakness , is that like his past NBA finals he didn't know the mental toughness to win by himself. This series he is learning from D-Wade.
As for game #4 - review the game a second time , without hate or favortism and objectively you will see as my Game #4 Observations thread states he was physically fatigued from the first whistle. If your bball person you can see it.

Tell me what age did MJ win his first ring ,, how many years in college to learn his trade :)

The only weakness in Lebron's game over all is low post back to the basket play. Once he learns that more / less he will be basically a complete player.
In this series 2 of the four games he needed to drive to the hoop more in the begining of the game... but 3 out of the 4 games he has set the tone for his teammates and has worked hand in hand with D-Wade.

He might have years of NBA knowledge , but he is in his mid twenties , and never played college ball. Most players coming into the league have a vet player to align the younger player as a mentor. From the beginning of his career - he didn't (he carried a franchise on his back)
This is the first time he has had a mentor in D-Wade.
I stated before the season started that D-Wade was the main man , and Heat will use him for 2-3 seasons , until his game starts taking a hit. At that time all of the little final series mental toughness and low post play he needs will all be there.
People think if the Heat win the series and D-Wade gets the MVP that Lebron's legancy will be tarnished for life. :facepalm
Tell me how many MVP trophys the great ones have in their study ??
Majic , Kareem , and others that have won multiple titles.
We like to think about the Spurs Duncan and current Lakers Byrant.
has those legacies affected their cred in the HOF when they say how many rings compared to MVP trophys :no:

[Stringer Bell]

Not saying i disagree with everything I've read in response, but my question pertains more to the difference in his approach. I agree LeBron has limitations to his offense that could and should be covered, but I more see a change in body language, style of play, demeanor etc. and that is what I am speaking to.

I'm guessing he has mental lapses. You can call it mentally weak if you want, obviously the toughest athletes (mentally) have less lapses.

It's kind of weird, I've seen him play great in the postseason, hit numerous huge shots, the performance in 2007 game 5 against Detroit was absolutely amazing, but at other times, he looks like he wilts and is out of it.

Maybe he's not as consistent with his focus and mental games as others. Or maybe it gets exaggerated since everything nowadays is put under a microscope and analyzed. :confusedshrug:

[knightfall88]

Wade has seemed a lot more uneffected by losing than LeBron has. LeBron's at least seemed upset by the losses during the press conferences. All Wade does is make excuses and act indifferent. Or mention "haters" to try and get sympathy pity while he acts apathetic during his interviews.

Absolutely. Best example was when he was cleveland. He lost to the magic and the celtics who ended up being finals teams. Not only that, the cleveland roster was facing improvements every year, even bringing in Byron Scott recently. But he panicked and left and went to Miami which was unnecessary.

[Jasper]

Wade has seemed a lot more uneffected by losing than LeBron has. LeBron's at least seemed upset by the losses during the press conferences. All Wade does is make excuses and act indifferent. Or mention "haters" to try and get sympathy pity while he acts apathetic during his interviews.

That is called Pride

[kabalcage]

The problem is not with LeBron James the player, the problem is with LeBron James the person.

LeBron won't commit to anything in life.
Not his hometown.
Not his girlfriend.
Not the offense.
Not the team.

For crying out loud, the dude knocked up his long-term girlfriend (TWO FREAKING KIDS) and still hasn't put a ring on her finger. The guy is blessed with the best physique and the most overall athleticism in human history, and he still hasn't developed a dominant post game. The guy just can't deliver rings and that'll cause a divide in the Heat franchise.

You can bet your life that LeBron will join another team before it's all said and done.

[nashwade]

he doesn't know how to run PNR
he dribbles too much, in the same spot!
he can defer shots to Wade and Bosh
in all honesty, i truly believe he is scared

[AlphaWolf24]

This post tells me you don't feel he is an elite player or super star.
The only weakness , is that like his past NBA finals he didn't know the mental toughness to win by himself. This series he is learning from D-Wade.
As for game #4 - review the game a second time , without hate or favortism and objectively you will see as my Game #4 Observations thread states he was physically fatigued from the first whistle. If your bball person you can see it.

Tell me what age did MJ win his first ring ,, how many years in college to learn his trade :)

The only weakness in Lebron's game over all is low post back to the basket play. Once he learns that more / less he will be basically a complete player.
In this series 2 of the four games he needed to drive to the hoop more in the begining of the game... but 3 out of the 4 games he has set the tone for his teammates and has worked hand in hand with D-Wade.

He might have years of NBA knowledge , but he is in his mid twenties , and never played college ball. Most players coming into the league have a vet player to align the younger player as a mentor. From the beginning of his career - he didn't (he carried a franchise on his back)
This is the first time he has had a mentor in D-Wade.
I stated before the season started that D-Wade was the main man , and Heat will use him for 2-3 seasons , until his game starts taking a hit. At that time all of the little final series mental toughness and low post play he needs will all be there.
People think if the Heat win the series and D-Wade gets the MVP that Lebron's legancy will be tarnished for life. :facepalm
Tell me how many MVP trophys the great ones have in their study ??
Majic , Kareem , and others that have one multiple titles.
We like to think about the Spurs Duncan and current Lakers Byrant.
has those legacies affected their cred in the HOF when they say how many rings compared to MVP trophys :no:


Jordan didn't "learn his trade" in college.....he continued to perfect his trade year after year...

he continuously changed every tiny detail in his game to become a better player(His game from 1984 - 1990 was IMO very diffrent from his J to his dribble) all the way up until his early 30's....from 1996 - 1998 he focused more on maintaining his body so he could incorporate all the skills he WORKED SO HARD TO AQUIRE



Lebron does need to develop a post game......maybe he will....

But MJ at 26 was suffering from Losing in the Playoff's every year...getting swept 3 years in a row in the First round....and Looking like he would never get past the Pistons...

He worked 2 years in a row to perfect the proper footwork to decieve and sqaure up his defender for his patented turnaround....by 1990 it pretty much unstoppable.



Lebron at 26 left a back 2 back 60 win team who was in the NBA Finals a couple years prior to go play on Wade's team.....polar opposites IMO.

[BEAST Griffin]

Mavs zone is taking away his driving and he's afraid to brick jumpers.

[SinJackal]

That is called Pride

It's also called indifference, and lacking in responsibility. Calling it "pride" is just a poor attempt at flowering it up instead of call it what it really is.

Hence why you don't even deny that he acts that way. I mean, applaud for not denying it, but really, it isn't just pride. He acts completely indifferent, then makes excuses any time someone questions his personal failures. Meanwhile, he talks about other player's failures, and says next time they'll do better. While taking no responsibility for his own actions, such as choking on an important free throw. He acted like it wasn't a big deal, when it was a HUGE point they needed.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's strange and I can't explain it. I've seen him put his team in position to beat a very good team single handedly(2009 ECF).

I understood him struggling so much in 2007 vs the Spurs and 2008 vs the Celtics more. He was just a much more flawed player with an erratic jumper and not much offensive talent around him to relieve some of the pressure. But he's become so much more well rounded and dominant the last 3 years that it seems impossible for him to play as poorly as he has this series or last year vs Boston.

The only theory I could come up with last year vs Boston was that he didn't want to stay in Cleveland anymore and didn't care because I couldn't believe after watching Lebron play such historically great basketball in the 2009 season and playoffs and 2010 season that he could play so poorly in 3 consecutive games vs the Celtics. But what didn't make sense was that he played so much better the first 3 games and had a 2-1 lead, plus despite not having great talent around him by championship standards, if Lebron plays at his usual level those last 3 games vs Boston, they could've definitely won, so that made no sense to me.

However, last night's game was even more puzzling. I don't know if it's the pressure, or the fact that Miami is expected to win the series and he thought Wade could do the heavy lifting and get Miami a title after seeing how well, he's played this series, who knows? Maybe he hasn't adjusted to playing well with another star. I mean, Lebron is so used to being expected to win almost single handedly, never on any of his Cleveland teams was their another guy who you could expect to be the MVP of a series other than Lebron or carry the team. Maybe he loses his focus and intensity when deferring to another player. And there are definitely times when you have to defer when you play with a player as good as Wade and have a 3rd option as good as Bosh, but there also has to be a balance when you're an elite player yourself, much less the best player in the league like Lebron is. Maybe he hasn't figured out how to find that balance?

[Pointguard]

Count me amongst those who now wholly believe there is no more talented player in the NBA today than LeBron James. That said, and please refrain from the hating and the jokes, there are lots of threads for those, what has happened to him the '10 Boston series and so far in the Finals? Why does he shy away from the ball? Play conservative on defense? Take almost no shots? Seem unaffected by losing?

What are your opinions, insights, theories as to why he can be so good for so much of the time and then, not fail, but simply not seem to try when the stage is biggest?
First you must establish are you talking about the rule? Did he do any of that when he was 22 years old and went the furthest he did in the playoffs? So you have to distinguish what you are talking about and not act like you got it right across the board. There is problematic activity from Lebron but it's not across the board in the matter of fact way you presented it. It popped up maybe three times, so its haterism or irresponsible writing to not say "sometimes he... ."

But to offer an answer... what he did last night was different than anything I seen before. The Boston game seemed like simple frustration. The game last night seemed like why am I in this situation? To put it simple, I think he pouts. An odd quality in a great player but it is what it is. Particularly, when other players realize this and try to manipulate it. A personality quirk which is very interesting in a competitive environment. Right now it isn't a definitive trait of his totality, so we have to see how it unfolds. It would be cool if people didn't rush and dramatically not get carried away after every episode.

For now, he has a WTF personality. And I think many have an impulsive, over-reaction to it.

The next game is indeed very interesting.

[AlphaWolf24]

Lebron is not the best player in the NBA....I don't think he is the best player on his team.

[Indian guy]

Is there anything more retarded than people still harping on LeBron's "post-game"?

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up? I'm amazed by how ignorant fans tend to be about the game. Who the heck is even posting up in this league that drives people to be so critical of LeBron's inability to do so? There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.

[BallsOut]

Is there anything more retarded than people still harping on LeBron's "post-game"?

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up? I'm amazed by how ignorant fans tend to be about the game. Who the heck is even posting up in this league that drives people to be so critical of LeBron's inability to do so? There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.

u sound angry

[Pointguard]

However, last night's game was even more puzzling. I don't know if it's the pressure, or the fact that Miami is expected to win the series and he thought Wade could do the heavy lifting and get Miami a title after seeing how well, he's played this series, who knows? Maybe he hasn't adjusted to playing well with another star. I mean, Lebron is so used to being expected to win almost single handedly, never on any of his Cleveland teams was their another guy who you could expect to be the MVP of a series other than Lebron or carry the team. Maybe he loses his focus and intensity when deferring to another player. And there are definitely times when you have to defer when you play with a player as good as Wade and have a 3rd option as good as Bosh, but there also has to be a balance when you're an elite player yourself, much less the best player in the league like Lebron is. Maybe he hasn't figured out how to find that balance?

Good points. I think he handled all of problems in life with the basketball in his hand. And now he doesn't even know how to fit in the equation of winning with the Heat. He has to get used to things happening without his hand on the steering wheel to control the car. Maybe it reminds him of separation, or loosing control. My lady is a forensic psychologist and she tells me we all have those fears. I think he goes thru stages of negligence and just doesn't participate.

[LBJWADE]

Lebron is a frontrunner who only does well when his team is doing well. Thats how it's been throughout his career and why I dont think things will suddenly change in this series. He needs to be told he is the best and that no one can stop him. But when he gets down, he stays down.

[magnax1]

Really, the stuff about him acting like he's not in the game is exaggerated. He's still a beast on defense, and he's still getting Bosh some really good shots on offense, which is a big reason they've played well despite his lack of scoring.
But then, there is his scoring. Really, it's just his jumpshot. When his jumpshot is on, like against Chicago, he's unstoppable. You can't just pack the paint and stop him from getting 30 points nightly. However, when his jumpshot falters (not that he's a bad shooter anymore, but he's wildly inconsistent with it) it also really dampens his ability to get inside, so that really more then anything he ends of relying on bad defense and transition opportunities to score. Usually that's enough for 20 points, but last night the Mavericks ramped there D up (No Peja helped, he let Lebron score almost 5 points alone in game 3) and basically shut Lebron down. Which should not happen. Even if the D is pefect, Lebron should be putting up 20 points every night, even when his jumper is off.

[LBJWADE]

Is there anything more retarded than people still harping on LeBron's "post-game"?

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up? I'm amazed by how ignorant fans tend to be about the game. Who the heck is even posting up in this league that drives people to be so critical of LeBron's inability to do so? There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/0908/funny/images/8.jpg

U serious? :lol :lol

[Indian guy]

U serious? :lol :lol

I am. I'd love to read a rebuttal from you.

[AlphaWolf24]

Is there anything more retarded than people still harping on LeBron's "post-game"?

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up? I'm amazed by how ignorant fans tend to be about the game. Who the heck is even posting up in this league that drives people to be so critical of LeBron's inability to do so? There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.


yes silly us.....what 6'9" 275lbs basketball player would want to learn how to play in the post...

especially added to to the fact that he just joined a team with a top 5 alltime SG who can attack of the dribble and create...


much better to never get a confidant back to the basket game......and just stand on the 3pt line gazing.



__________________________________________________ _______________

answer your question.....

TMAC
Penny
Kobe
Glen Robinson
Dominique
even Drexler had a post game.....


Lebron is bigger , Faster and more explosive then all those Great perimeter players.

[tpols]

There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.
What?

Have you seen kobe at all this year? All he did was post people up.

[kaiiu]

Is there anything more retarded than people still harping on LeBron's "post-game"?

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up? I'm amazed by how ignorant fans tend to be about the game. Who the heck is even posting up in this league that drives people to be so critical of LeBron's inability to do so? There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.
:facepalm Even if they dont post up. They still have a back to the basket game. Lebron does not

[Pinkhearts]

Is there anything more retarded than people still harping on LeBron's "post-game"?

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up? I'm amazed by how ignorant fans tend to be about the game. Who the heck is even posting up in this league that drives people to be so critical of LeBron's inability to do so? There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.

Jordan.


And Lebron lacks perimeter skills like shooting too. Hell he can't even shoot over 80% at FTs

[LBJWADE]

I am. I'd love to read a rebuttal from you.

Kobe's post up skills are exceptional...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gs1xs7lha0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm0o5_gsF78

[Indian guy]

What?

Have you seen kobe at all this year? All he did was post people up.

Kobe posted up 300 times this season to LeBron's 160. And that's beside the point anyway. Find me a perimeter player around LeBron's age in NBA history who posted up. Not a 30+ year old who has to compensate for declining athleticism through other means.

[Indian guy]

Jordan.


MJ didn't truly begin playing with his back to the basket until 90-91, when he started lifting. Prior to that his post-work consisted of catching the ball and shooting turnaround jumpers. He certainly wasn't backing anyone down.

[kaiiu]

Kobe posted up 300 times this season to LeBron's 160. And that's beside the point anyway. Find me a perimeter player around LeBron's age in NBA history who posted up. Not a 30+ year old who has to compensate for declining athleticism through other means.
Melo. TMac had a back to basket game to. Pierce had one to.

[magnax1]

Why does every thread have to have Kobe and Jordan in it?

[LBJWADE]

Melo. TMac had a back to basket game to. Pierce had one to.

Yes. He doesnt know what he's talking about.

[AlphaWolf24]

MJ didn't truly begin playing with his back to the basket until 90-91, when he started lifting. Prior to that his post-work consisted of catching the ball and shooting turnaround jumpers. He certainly wasn't backing anyone down.


ok he was 27.....not 26...but he had been finetuning his skillset for over 5 years......

Lebron is lost in the post......it takes time and in game repetition.




MJ didn't start lifting weights and all of a sudden have a post game...he worked hard over time to get at his level.....5 - 7 years in the making.

Lebron has no where near the level MJ had at 26.

[sbw19]

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up?

Gary Payton, *cough* Magic *cough*, among others.

[AlphaWolf24]

Gary Payton, *cough* Magic *cough*, among others.


exactly.....that dude said "Can anyone name a 26 year old perimeter player who played in the post"...now looking back , all the great 2's and 3's had post games...


FAIL

[Jasper]

MJ didn't truly begin playing with his back to the basket until 90-91, when he started lifting. Prior to that his post-work consisted of catching the ball and shooting turnaround jumpers. He certainly wasn't backing anyone down.
how old was he ?

[LBJWADE]

how old was he ?

27-28yrs. Not like Lebron is gonna have these skills next year :rolleyes:

[Kingwillball]

Lebron is a frontrunner who only does well when his team is doing well. Thats how it's been throughout his career and why I dont think things will suddenly change in this series. He needs to be told he is the best and that no one can stop him. But when he gets down, he stays down.


I expect to bounce back in a huge way the rest of the series(next 2 games as the Heat close it out he will be big part of it)

[Indian guy]

how old was he ?

28

[kaiiu]

28
in his 7th year. Lebron is in his 8th :rolleyes:

[Jasper]

Jordan didn't "learn his trade" in college.....he continued to perfect his trade year after year...

he continuously changed every tiny detail in his game to become a better player(His game from 1984 - 1990 was IMO very diffrent from his J to his dribble) all the way up until his early 30's....from 1996 - 1998 he focused more on maintaining his body so he could incorporate all the skills he WORKED SO HARD TO AQUIRE



Lebron does need to develop a post game......maybe he will....

But MJ at 26 was suffering from Losing in the Playoff's every year...getting swept 3 years in a row in the First round....and Looking like he would never get past the Pistons...

He worked 2 years in a row to perfect the proper footwork to decieve and sqaure up his defender for his patented turnaround....by 1990 it pretty much unstoppable.



Lebron at 26 left a back 2 back 60 win team who was in the NBA Finals a couple years prior to go play on Wade's team.....polar opposites IMO.
So Jordan just played in college and dated girls :facepalm
You do realize college players entering the NBA are more mature and knowledgable about the basic school sets that require a complete skilled player as a pro :confusedshrug:

Lebron came out of high school and carried a franchise on his back.
Sometimes I wonder about posters ...

So you don't think Lebron needs a back to the basket post game :banghead:
But it was o.k. that Jordan did to become not only a complete offensive weapon , but the GOAT.

The OP asked what things Lebron needs to do or lacks to make him a complete player. I stated a low post game to have all the skills that MJ had as a SF. Lebron still needs to learn how to play with his new teammates and learn Coach S.'s style , but IMO I beleive the Heat roster are all learning this on the fly in one year and are in the finals :applause:

Discussing MJ's work ethic and Wade in your post is lame, and off topic. If posters think Lebron doesn't have a viable work ethic ,.they don't know bball.

[Indian guy]

Gary Payton, *cough* Magic *cough*, among others.

Payton, yes. Magic? He didn't really begin relying on his post-game until his late 20's. Mind you, neither were scorers and lacked a strong face-up game. Posting up was their primary means of scoring, quite unlike other perimeter scorers like LeBron, Kobe, Wade, MJ and so on who all had dominant face-up games and didn't need to post up.

Bird, from everything I have seen of him, was really the only perimeter player who posted up a significant amount from a young age despite being strong at most other facets of scoring too.

[kaiiu]

Payton, yes. Magic? He didn't really begin relying on his post-game until his late 20's. Mind you, neither were scorers and lacked a strong face-up game. Posting up was their primary means of scoring, quite unlike other perimeter scorers like LeBron, Kobe, Wade, MJ and so on who all had dominant face-up games and didn't need to post up.

Bird, from everything I have seen of him, was really the only perimeter player who posted up a significant amount from a young age despite being strong at most other facets of scoring too.
incorrect.

[Jasper]

in his 7th year. Lebron is in his 8th :rolleyes:
Point is lebron came out of high school and didn't learn viable skills a college player does as MJ did.

And if you think I am wrong ... then you don't understand bball and the college cred

[gts]

Wade's been to the Finals and won, Lebron's been to the Finals and got thrashed. Lebron is following Wades lead and letting Wade be the one who leads them. I can't say he's mentally weak because I don't think he is.

I really think he doesn't know how to take that next step when the games mean so much. When it's a regular season game he can play loosey goosey have fun and be himself, in the playoffs against a team when he has a clear advantage he's the same, loose and playing like he's a beast but when the chips are all in and teams focus on him when every trip down court counts he vapor locks. With Wade and bosh it's easier for him to let them do the heavy lifting while he picks up the odd scraps.

The game has always come so easy for Lebron, he's always been the man child playing against boys and he struggles when he's matched up against an equally talented team playing real man basketball and it freaks him out

[kaiiu]

Point is lebron came out of high school and didn't learn viable skills a college player does as MJ did.

And if you think I am wrong ... then you don't understand bball and the college cred
meh.. I agree on the college part. buts thats only going to fly for so long. College teaches intangibles and team work. But Lebron is practically a vet right now. That excuse dont fly. He is content with his game as it is

[LBJWADE]

Payton, yes. Magic? He didn't really begin relying on his post-game until his late 20's. Mind you, neither were scorers and lacked a strong face-up game. Posting up was their primary means of scoring, quite unlike other perimeter scorers like LeBron, Kobe, Wade, MJ and so on who all had dominant face-up games and didn't need to post up.

Bird, from everything I have seen of him, was really the only perimeter player who posted up a significant amount from a young age despite being strong at most other facets of scoring too.
Kobe's post up skills are exceptional...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gs1xs7lha0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm0o5_gsF78

[Indian guy]

in the playoffs against a team when he has a clear advantage he's the same, loose and playing like he's a beast but when the chips are all in and teams focus on him when every trip down court counts he vapor locks.

I'd love to know what kind of "clear advantage" LeBron enjoyed against the #1 and #2 ranked defensive teams in Chicago and Boston, but somehow can't find that edge against the vastly INFERIOR Dallas Mavericks, who're the lowest ranked defensive team LeBron's faced this postseason.

People, depending on their agenda, are trying to explain something that can't really be explained. There's no rational explanation behind LeBron's approach in this series given what happened the previous rounds or even the rest of his career for that matter. LeBron's never really been a player who's "deferred". In Cleveland, of course, he never had a choice but even in Miami, he led the team in PPG, FGA and was the #1 option in the clutch all season. Nothing changed in the playoffs either until this series.

[magnax1]

In some ways I think the criticisms of him are pretty stupid. If you play basketball, you know that when the shots aren't there, they aren't there. If you're shooting 3/13 (or whatever he shot) and you force up more shots that really aren't shots you'd normally take, your team is worse off. He just hasn't had shots that are his normal shots, except for those jumpers that he just isn't making. He sucked last game, no doubt, but to say stuff like "He's being passive" is sort of a dumb criticism. He'd only hurt his team by not being passive when he doesn't have a shot...

[AlphaWolf24]

So Jordan just played in college and dated girls :facepalm
You do realize college players entering the NBA are more mature and knowledgable about the basic school sets that require a complete skilled player as a pro :confusedshrug:

Lebron came out of high school and carried a franchise on his back.
Sometimes I wonder about posters ...

So you don't think Lebron needs a back to the basket post game :banghead:
But it was o.k. that Jordan did to become not only a complete offensive weapon , but the GOAT.

The OP asked what things Lebron needs to do or lacks to make him a complete player. I stated a low post game to have all the skills that MJ had as a SF. Lebron still needs to learn how to play with his new teammates and learn Coach S.'s style , but IMO I beleive the Heat roster are all learning this on the fly in one year and are in the finals :applause:

Discussing MJ's work ethic and Wade in your post is lame, and off topic. If posters think Lebron doesn't have a viable work ethic ,.they don't know bball.


WTF?..


1. Everyone is different....it depends on the individual....."college" doesn't make someone "more mature" or "smarter"....growing up does...but many college players also failed dealing with a Pro Lifestyle.

2. Lebron came out of Highschool and drastically changed his "Hometown" team ...making them better....and 3 years later at 21 helping them into the Playoff's for the first time in 5 years......a few years later he quit and they burned his jersey.

3. I was agreeing with you , he does need to revamp his skillset....

4. 2 top 5 players and a top Shelf Forward come to play on the same team and you applaud them for winning....:lol :facepalm

5. I was saying MJ's work ethic is what made him develop a post game....it took over 5 years of hard work and little time off to get to his level....he just didn't go to college and Dean Smith taught him to post up..in fact it was quite opposite....

College IMO hindered MJ's skillset....he could have been where he was in 91' much earlier in his career and possibly 2 - 3 more Titles....but that was 1982....

[LBJWADE]

In some ways I think the criticisms of him are pretty stupid. If you play basketball, you know that when the shots aren't there, they aren't there. If you're shooting 3/13 (or whatever he shot) and you force up more shots that really aren't shots you'd normally take, your team is worse off. He just hasn't had shots that are his normal shots, except for those jumpers that he just isn't making. He sucked last game, no doubt, but to say stuff like "He's being passive" is sort of a dumb criticism. He'd only hurt his team by not being passive when he doesn't have a shot...


If Lebron drives to the lane he has much better chance of scoring or getting to the freethrow line...

[Marquis Daniels]

1. mental weak
2. mom got fukk again
3. new to big games like these

[AlphaWolf24]

In some ways I think the criticisms of him are pretty stupid. If you play basketball, you know that when the shots aren't there, they aren't there. If you're shooting 3/13 (or whatever he shot) and you force up more shots that really aren't shots you'd normally take, your team is worse off. He just hasn't had shots that are his normal shots, except for those jumpers that he just isn't making. He sucked last game, no doubt, but to say stuff like "He's being passive" is sort of a dumb criticism. He'd only hurt his team by not being passive when he doesn't have a shot...


In the NBA very rarely do you ever just have a shot....shots are very rarely given to you....

you have to read the defense and create.....but if you only have 1 weapon to shoot with....then yes you are limited to where you can hit the target.

[Soundwave]

The Chicago series was very intense and he was stone cold killer in that series and the defence was tougher.

I'm giving LeBron another game to prove himself though. Sometimes even great players have a bad game.

Wade was awful in the Chicago series, they wouldn't even be in the Finals if it wasn't for LeBron.

[magnax1]

If Lebron drives to the lane he has much better chance of scoring or getting to the freethrow line...
He doesn't have a lane though. He's not a guy who can just get inside at will like Wade can, because he's not quick like Wade. Most times he's tried to drive he's been met by a double, and made the pass, or he just couldn't get by his guy (which he should be able to, but whatever)
I really don't think this is an effort thing. It's been a consistent issue over his career. This series looks pretty similar to me to the series he's had against Boston and San Antonio. It's not really something that's related to how good the defense is, but when his jumper is falling, he's an elite scorer. When it's not, he's not. He's still playing elite defense and passing very well, so it doesn't look like effort to me at all. He shouldn't only score 8 points no matter what, but the fact that he's basically averaged 20 ppg in this series isn't surprising to me.

[Bernie Nips]

It's simple. LeBron has spat the dummy.

Behind closed doors I think Wade's been given the green light that he's the no. 1 option for the Finals. I think this agreement was probably made before they even traded in the other two.

LeBron's not as good when he's not the first option. So finally, he spat the dummy in Game 4 and said fine, you don't want me to be first option, here's what happens.

[Ne 1]

I'm not sure exactly what it is, but to me it seems like LeBron seriously lacks mental toughness and heart.

[magnax1]

In the NBA very rarely do you ever just have a shot....shots are very rarely given to you....

you have to read the defense and create.....but if you only have 1 weapon to shoot with....then yes you are limited to where you can hit the target.
Defenses in the NBA are designed to make you shoot whatever your weakest scoring option is. So in the case of Lebron, they've taken away his driving lanes (excluding a few mesed up defensive plays) and forced him to shoot jumpers. His shot is cold, and it's basically resulted in this poor series.

[360crazy]

D wade didn't see nearly as much criticism as Lebron when he was faltering in the bulls series. You guys seem to fail to realize basketball is a team game. You have your lows and you have your peaks and your team is there to support you during your lows . I can guarantee Lebron will help his team to a victory next game. As far as this sidekick talk goes....it's pure hate and ignorance. Lebron was better than D wade all season and ultimately help put them in the position they are now. Never have I seen a more irrational group of people than this board.

[AlphaWolf24]

Defenses in the NBA are designed to make you shoot whatever your weakest scoring option is. So in the case of Lebron, they've taken away his driving lanes (excluding a few mesed up defensive plays) and forced him to shoot jumpers. His shot is cold, and it's basically resulted in this poor series.


true...another reason to develop another weapon..(post game)

[DMAVS41]

I'd love to know what kind of "clear advantage" LeBron enjoyed against the #1 and #2 ranked defensive teams in Chicago and Boston, but somehow can't find that edge against the vastly INFERIOR Dallas Mavericks, who're the lowest ranked defensive team LeBron's faced this postseason.

People, depending on their agenda, are trying to explain something that can't really be explained. There's no rational explanation behind LeBron's approach in this series given what happened the previous rounds or even the rest of his career for that matter. LeBron's never really been a player who's "deferred". In Cleveland, of course, he never had a choice but even in Miami, he led the team in PPG, FGA and was the #1 option in the clutch all season. Nothing changed in the playoffs either until this series.

There is something the Mavs are doing though. Its now been 6 games and Lebron has not looked comfortable in any of them to be honest....not the 2 in the regular season and now the 4 so far in the playoffs.

It could be something as simple as a bad scheme for him. Not sure though. Its still a relatively small number of games.

He can definitely turn it around in the remainder of the series, but something has been up for 6 games now.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

There is something the Mavs are doing though. Its now been 6 games and Lebron has not looked comfortable in any of them to be honest....not the 2 in the regular season and now the 4 so far in the playoffs.

It could be something as simple as a bad scheme for him. Not sure though. Its still a relatively small number of games.

He can definitely turn it around in the remainder of the series, but something has been up for 6 games now.

Hopefully he doesn't :oldlol:

[knightfall88]

Defenses in the NBA are designed to make you shoot whatever your weakest scoring option is. So in the case of Lebron, they've taken away his driving lanes (excluding a few mesed up defensive plays) and forced him to shoot jumpers. His shot is cold, and it's basically resulted in this poor series.

True. But I've always said that double teams are used to tempt the player to pass up a shot to the open guy not so much to physically stop the player himself. If Lebron is doubled, it doesn't mean he should pass to the open guy because that is exactly what the defense wants.

[BlueandGold]

Wade has seemed a lot more uneffected by losing than LeBron has. LeBron's at least seemed upset by the losses during the press conferences. All Wade does is make excuses and act indifferent. Or mention "haters" to try and get sympathy pity while he acts apathetic during his interviews.
You do understand that talking at a press conference and playing in a finals game are two different things right? :facepalm

[magnax1]

true...another reason to develop another weapon..(post game)
He doesn't really need to get a post game, he just has to have something that he can fall back on consistently Jumpshot, post game, whatever. He just can't have these series he has where he disappears as an efficient scoring option, and you can't look at the #s to determine this stuff, because it's all about consistency, not overall efficiency.

[magnax1]

True. But I've always said that double teams are used to tempt the player to pass up a shot to the open guy not so much to physically stop the player himself. If Lebron is doubled, it doesn't mean he should pass to the open guy because that is exactly what the defense wants.
I agree, but Lebron isn't a guy like Wade who has the ability to get around those doubles effectively. That's why he's a more effective pick and roll guy then iso (and why Mike Brown loved to use the pick and roll so much)

[DMAVS41]

Hopefully he doesn't :oldlol:

No shit.

I will struggle with a Mavs loss in this series more than any other in my life watching sports.

I don't think I've ever cared as much about a series as I do now.

Its going to be brutal to take if Lebron is holding up that trophy.

At the same time though, nothing would be more satisfying than watching Dirk hold it up.

[dbugz]

- Too much pressure
- Weak mentality
- Heat offense sucks. They only rely on LeBron and Wade's athleticism
- Coach Spo doesn't have the respectable image that LeBron James needed for him to be motivated. He's too weak to tell Lebron that he needed to these, that he needed to that. LeBron need someone like Popovich or Doc Rivers, someone who has the balls to tell LeBron that he needed to stay focus and someone who can shout on his face whenever he's doing awful things on the court.

[AlphaWolf24]

He doesn't really need to get a post game, he just has to have something that he can fall back on consistently Jumpshot, post game, whatever. He just can't have these series he has where he disappears as an efficient scoring option, and you can't look at the #s to determine this stuff, because it's all about consistency, not overall efficiency.

yup....but man....he could have been a beast in the paint. 6'9" 270lbs....just develop a jump hook/drop step = Barkley 2.0

[360crazy]

I think Lebron is failing right now but has he failed completely yet? No I think not, foolish ones.

[AlphaWolf24]

I think Lebron is failing right now but has he failed completely yet? No I think not, foolish ones.


you're right he has Wade and Bosh now...

[-playmaker-]

I wouild like to throw out the theory that Bron is a b*tch...has anyone put that out on the table yet?

[Jacks3]

D wade didn't see nearly as much criticism as Lebron when he was faltering in the bulls series.
This has also bothered me. Wade in the ECF was a lot worse then LBJ has been in the NBA Finals and yet he seemed to get very little criticism from the national media or the fans. It's a joke.

[chazzy]

Find me a perimeter player around LeBron's age in NBA history who posted up. Not a 30+ year old who has to compensate for declining athleticism through other means.
You've been talking about his diminished athleticism all year, now he doesn't need a post game because he's young? If he can't blow by people and finish at the rim the way he used to, wouldn't it help to diversify his arsenal so he doesn't go through stretches of not having any confidence in a go to move? I think the whole post game thing is a little overblown myself, but it would definitely help him.

[Indian guy]

You've been talking about his diminished athleticism all year, now he doesn't need a post game because he's young?

I didn't say he couldn't do with one NOW, but spoke more to the fact that NO perimeter scorer in NBA history was playing with his back-to-the-basket at a young age. Majority NEVER did. So I don't understand this obsession with sh!tting on LeBron about his post skills, as if we see perimeter scorers posting up all the time when of fact of the matter is, NOBODY does.

But you're right, given that LeBron's body has fallen apart, he could do with a post-up game now.

[Scoooter]

You need to have a consistent jumpshot. Or at least a jumpshot you trust consistently. I don't think LeBron believes he can rely on his jumpshot if defenders take away the paint, and it throws his scoring game off.

Perimeter players have to be able to shoot the ball. Or they have to play bigger and run down court to establish post position. Marion does this sometimes, and he's often getting the ball down on the block. LeBron plays point guard a lot, so it's different for him.

His jumper is the main thing holding him back offensively. Whether or not it's actually flawed or just his confidence in it, he should work that out.

He did have nine assists though, so he wasn't a complete no-show.

[BuGzBuNNy]

It's simple. LeBron has spat the dummy.

Behind closed doors I think Wade's been given the green light that he's the no. 1 option for the Finals. I think this agreement was probably made before they even traded in the other two.

LeBron's not as good when he's not the first option. So finally, he spat the dummy in Game 4 and said fine, you don't want me to be first option, here's what happens.
This is the closest post I saw to the correct answer.

As soon as the game ended, I came up with the theory that Lebron is thinking, "Hey, if I'm not going to win finals MVP, I'm not going to look like I'm gunning for it and come up short." He also doesn't want to look like he's trying to steal it from Wade.

He's being stubborn. It has nothing to do with his basketball ability. :oldlol:

[LBJWADE]

This is the closest post I saw to the correct answer.

As soon as the game ended, I came up with the theory that Lebron is thinking, "Hey, if I'm not going to win finals MVP, I'm not going to look like I'm gunning for it and come up short." He also doesn't want to look like he's trying to steal it from Wade.

He's being stubborn. It has nothing to do with his basketball ability. :oldlol:

lol

[knightfall88]

I didn't say he couldn't do with one NOW, but spoke more to the fact that NO perimeter scorer in NBA history was playing with his back-to-the-basket at a young age. Majority NEVER did. So I don't understand this obsession with sh!tting on LeBron about his post skills, as if we see perimeter scorers posting up all the time when of fact of the matter is, NOBODY does.

But you're right, given that LeBron's body has fallen apart, he could do with a post-up game now.

Look at Bird, Magic, MJ, Kobe in their 8th season. Even look at Wade and Melo right now.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

I didn't think he had that bad of a game. It's blown out of proportion just because the Heat lost. I mean yeah Lebron had a bad shooting night but he still had 9 rebounds and 7 assists. Lebron won't shoot well every single night. I mean I've watched Ray Allen miss 10 shots in a row.

[che guevara]

The post game stuff has always annoyed me with Lebron; as has been noted, who the hell was posting up much at his age? MJ wasn't posting up much in 1989, and for good reason - there's no reason to have an athletic freak with a great midrange shot like Jordan screwing around in the post when he can get better shots facing up on the perimeter and getting to the hoop/pulling up from midrange. When he put on muscle and slowed down a little, it made sense. Lebron should start developing one now (and he is (http://www.nba.com/heat/news/a_post_game_in_the_playoffs_110530.html)) but it didn't make as much sense before. Every time Lebron/Jordan are in the post, it also means they aren't facing up on the perimeter and getting to the hoop.


You need to have a consistent jumpshot. Or at least a jumpshot you trust consistently. I don't think LeBron believes he can rely on his jumpshot if defenders take away the paint, and it throws his scoring game off.

Perimeter players have to be able to shoot the ball. Or they have to play bigger and run down court to establish post position. Marion does this sometimes, and he's often getting the ball down on the block. LeBron plays point guard a lot, so it's different for him.

His jumper is the main thing holding him back offensively. Whether or not it's actually flawed or just his confidence in it, he should work that out.

He did have nine assists though, so he wasn't a complete no-show.
His jumper is fine and has been for three years. His primary means of attack this season was jumpers, and he was one of the best midrange players in the league (45% from both 10-15 feet and 16-23 feet, which are phenomenal numbers). His problems in game 4 were unrelated to his skills/athleticism.

Lebron's biggest problem with his shot is his FT shooting. He's been around 77% the last 3 years which is okay, but I'd like to see him get it into the low to mid 80s.


Look at Bird, Magic, MJ, Kobe in their 8th season. Even look at Wade and Melo right now.
You think they were just wasting time in College, not developing their games? You can use the College argument when talking about mileage players have picked up, but it makes no sense when talking about skill development. College players work on their games too.

He SHOULD come back differently next season, though. Either he's got to magically get his athleticism back (very doubtful) or work on his post game.

[Rolando]

It's simple. LeBron has spat the dummy.

Behind closed doors I think Wade's been given the green light that he's the no. 1 option for the Finals. I think this agreement was probably made before they even traded in the other two.

LeBron's not as good when he's not the first option. So finally, he spat the dummy in Game 4 and said fine, you don't want me to be first option, here's what happens.

This. He is pouting.

He is a mess because he realizes the there will be no finals MVP for him. He is also cocky enough about the Heat winning the series that he threw this game to make his "point".

[Jacks3]

I see that people are back to proclaiming things like "he needs a jumper" or "he needs a post-up game" because he can't play well vs good defenses in the playoffs...even though he just came off two series where he TORCHED the two best defenses in the league. :facepalm

[DeronMillsap]

I have a couple o' theories:

- Lebron not mentally strong.
- Lebron not strong mentally.
- Lebron mentally strong, not.
This is 100% accurate.

Dude can be the greatest player in the world when things are going his way. But he can also be the biggest coward(nicest term to say) in the world when his back is against the wall. The dude just fails under pressure.

Mentality, he needs to go back to the 2003-07 LeBron again but also play like the '08-present LeBron on the court. During those first 4 years, he was labeled as the Next Big Thing/Next GOAT and he lived up to it but then people started to question his heart, his ability to play great in the big games. He has yet to prove his critics/haters wrong on his big stage/game abilities.

[RazorBaLade]

I didn't think he had that bad of a game. It's blown out of proportion just because the Heat lost. I mean yeah Lebron had a bad shooting night but he still had 9 rebounds and 7 assists. Lebron won't shoot well every single night. I mean I've watched Ray Allen miss 10 shots in a row.

what would be a bad game? if 8 pts 3/11 isnt

[24r2]

i hope Miami wins tha championship so that lebron's ring will be tainted forever

[Mikaiel]

So I don't understand this obsession with sh!tting on LeBron about his post skills, as if we see perimeter scorers posting up all the time when of fact of the matter is, NOBODY does.

But we've never seen a 6'9, 270 perimiter player before.

In theory, it should be beyond retarded to have Jason Kidd on LeBron. But he can't make them pay.

[DeronMillsap]

what would be a bad game? if 8 pts 3/11 isnt
It's not bad, it's terribad!!!! Yet I still can't believe his stans are still defending him. :facepalm

Even if you put his rebounds and assists up, it's still a terrible game for a so-called best/co-best player in the game.

8-9-7 is like Kirilenko or Landry Field numbers on a good night. Is that what LeBron has turned into, great jack-of-all-trades role player?

[bail]

maybe he does not want wade to be the finals mvp, when wade has a better game, it looks like bron prefers to lose the game.. see game 2 and 4 :)

[DeronMillsap]

maybe he does not want wade to be the finals mvp, when wade has a better game, it looks like bron prefers to lose the game.. see game 2 and 4 :)
What about Game 1 & 3?

G1: Wade 22-10-6, LBJ 24-9-5...nearly identical.
G3:Wade Wade 29-11-3, LBJ 17-3-9....Wade was better.

Overall Wade is having the best series out of any player on either team.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Wade's been to the Finals and won, Lebron's been to the Finals and got thrashed. Lebron is following Wades lead and letting Wade be the one who leads them. I can't say he's mentally weak because I don't think he is.

I really think he doesn't know how to take that next step when the games mean so much. When it's a regular season game he can play loosey goosey have fun and be himself, in the playoffs against a team when he has a clear advantage he's the same, loose and playing like he's a beast but when the chips are all in and teams focus on him when every trip down court counts he vapor locks. With Wade and bosh it's easier for him to let them do the heavy lifting while he picks up the odd scraps.

The game has always come so easy for Lebron, he's always been the man child playing against boys and he struggles when he's matched up against an equally talented team playing real man basketball and it freaks him out

This sums up my opinion pretty much as well and is easily the best post of this thread.

[Derka]

He ebbs and flows with the competition. Same old lack of maturity and will that he's shown throughout his entire career.

Sixers had nothing that could stop him. Dominance ensued.
Boston realistically had nothing that could stop him and was offensively weak. Dominance ensued.
Chicago had nothing that could stop him. Dominance ensued.
Dallas has designed a defense structured around making him a facilitator and not letting him have his way, content to let him pass and defer to teammates. Lack of dominance has thus far ensued.

For a guy who is easily the most talented individual to come to the NBA in this generation, he's no gamer. He still hasn't learned to cope with having his buttons pushed out on the floor...like a spoiled child, he exhibits clear signs of a guy who is terribly accustomed to having his way.

When he knows he's better than you...when he knows there's nothing out there that can stop him...he plays like it. The inverse is true as well; if he sees a team that's doing everything it can to take him out of the equation, he's not interested in willing himself to find a way through it. He defers. He backs off on both ends and just goes for the easy stuff that he can get. You get what you're getting now...you get last season's loss to the Celtics.

[Dragonyeuw]

Is there anything more retarded than people still harping on LeBron's "post-game"?

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up? I'm amazed by how ignorant fans tend to be about the game. Who the heck is even posting up in this league that drives people to be so critical of LeBron's inability to do so? There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.

Huh?! Jordan from 96-98 and Kobe the past 2 seasons had stellar post up-games. Most important than his age is the number of season's he's played:8 and counting. He should have some semblance of a post-game by now, especially as he's bulked up and diminished his ability to drive as well as before. Wade even posts every so often, yes he's 29 but he's played the same number of seasons.

26 with a post game?? Off the bat, Melo has a great post-game and that's been the case for a few years now.

[mlh1981]

He'd rather be one of the guys than be the all out leader. He doesn't have a strong enough personality to take the bull by the horns.

Sometimes, the situation requires that you get in peoples' faces and really challenge them. Don't worry about whether or not they like you. Other greats in the present/past aren't afraid to confront their teammates. LeBron isn't like that. He's very consumed with wanting to be liked.

[nathanjizzle]

damn lebron and his fans suck.

[Scoooter]

The post game stuff has always annoyed me with Lebron; as has been noted, who the hell was posting up much at his age? MJ wasn't posting up much in 1989, and for good reason - there's no reason to have an athletic freak with a great midrange shot like Jordan screwing around in the post when he can get better shots facing up on the perimeter and getting to the hoop/pulling up from midrange. When he put on muscle and slowed down a little, it made sense. Lebron should start developing one now (and he is (http://www.nba.com/heat/news/a_post_game_in_the_playoffs_110530.html)) but it didn't make as much sense before. Every time Lebron/Jordan are in the post, it also means they aren't facing up on the perimeter and getting to the hoop.
You can be an athletic freak and use that to your advantage while posting up. They're not mutually exclusive. If nothing else, it's nicer to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


His jumper is fine and has been for three years. His primary means of attack this season was jumpers, and he was one of the best midrange players in the league (45% from both 10-15 feet and 16-23 feet, which are phenomenal numbers). His problems in game 4 were unrelated to his skills/athleticism.
Well, my post made the concession that his shot may be fine, while his confidence in it may not be. And I think it bears out. When he's having a good game, when he's "feeling it", he'll hit any jumper in the world. When he's off, he's exceedingly tentative. Maybe he's just smart, and not hoisting up shots when they're not falling. It appears to me, however, more a reaction dictated by the defense than anything else.


Lebron's biggest problem with his shot is his FT shooting. He's been around 77% the last 3 years which is okay, but I'd like to see him get it into the low to mid 80s.
His freethrow form looks better than his jumper form. At a certain point. it's just a mental thing.

[hitmanyr2k]

Is there anything more retarded than people still harping on LeBron's "post-game"?

Can anyone name a single 26 year old perimeter player in NBA history who posted up? I'm amazed by how ignorant fans tend to be about the game. Who the heck is even posting up in this league that drives people to be so critical of LeBron's inability to do so? There isn't a single perimeter player in the NBA who relies on back-to-the-basket skills to be productive on the court. Hardly anyone even has these skills.

Who cares about age? Lebron has been in the league for 8 freakin seasons. Plenty of players had a low/high post back-to-the-basket game by their 8th season. The Dallas Mavericks are disrespecting Lebron putting Jason Kidd on him at times and he can't even take advantage of the matchup. Put Jason Kidd on Kobe Bryant and he's getting posted up. Put Jason Kidd on Carmelo Anthony and he's getting posted up. In the past? Put Jason Kidd on Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Penny Hardaway, his teammate Nick Anderson, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Steve Smith and he's getting posted up. Hell, even Bonzi Wells comes to mind. He had a nice post game in only his 2nd year in the league.

I've been saying the last 2 years there's no reason for a player of that size with that kind of athleticism and speed not to have a post game. When those driving lanes are cut off and your shot isn't falling it's just another weapon to go to in your arsenal. It's rare that something bad comes out of a good post game. It's a high percentage shot. It's a matchup nightmare when you have a smaller player guarding you. It forces the defense to react and double which opens up passing lanes and shooters. Anything is better than sitting on the perimeter looking like an idiot with a midget guarding you.

The same can be said for Kevin Durant. He has all the length in the world and a great shooting touch. He could kill with even an average post game. Who's going to block a jumphook from him with those long arms? Instead he's either getting denied the ball on the perimeter by good defenders, shooting 30 foot shots at the end of games or forced to watch Westbrook take over down the stretch. It's just retarded. He and Lebron need to wise the f*** up.

[chips93]

firstly chandler and the mavs piick and roll coverage was excellent last night, so give the mavs some credit.

really strange performance, at times hed get the ball look to go iso, go nowhere call for a pick get nowhere and give up. back in cleveland he could hold the ball a halfcourt, get the pick and attack the hedging player at full speed, in miami he cant do that, they have too much talent to play lebron ball and hes looked pretty limited the last 2 games. wade has obviously adjusted much better to the situation than lebron has. wade seems to be getting more shots off of cuts than lebron.

i really dont understand whats going on, lebron doesnt look like he can consistently get to the rim, but he doesnt seem frustrated by that, hes almost resigned to playing at the level he is, maybe he thinks he needs to let wade take over?

[comerb]

His poor play has nothing to do with a lack of offensive talent or poor shooting. He is mentally taking himself out of games... Making an extra pass when it's not necessary, not being aggressive towards the lane, not taking shots when the opportunity arises, and generally deciding to pass the ball from the moment it touches his fingertips.

Why is he playing like that? I got no idea. I do know that it's destroying what respect I had left for him after the Boston game last year. He needs to come up big tonight in the worst sort of way.