Marion making 7M, Stoudamire maing 20M - Is Donnie Walsh really different from Isiah?

[FourthTenor]

Giving someone who ONLY does one basketball thing at an above average level (scoring) - making him a glorified role player - a contract that pays him 20 million per year (and then turning around and doing the exact same thing to ANOTHER player) is reminiscent of what Isiah would do with someone like Marbury or Curry.

I know Walsh capitulated to Dolan on the Carmelo trade and perhaps did so on the Stoudamire signing as well, but how can you really argue Walsh did anything successful in NY?

Those are going to be two of the worst contracts in the league going forward. Not that the team is going to be top 5 in the lottery, but theyre not gonna be any better than average.

Teams with players like Marion and Scola and Randolph will all be just as good as them despite paying those players far less and having more money to spend on other players.


NYK seriously f'd up so badly its hilarious. They spent all that time getting rid of bad contracts just to give out two new ones.

[niko]

:facepalm

[The_Night_Elf]

I think Melo and Amare will do a little better than Curry and Marbury did. I do think getting Marion for 7 mil is a pretty good deal considering how he played in these playoffs.

[Blue&Orange]

:facepalm

[Rajondo]

Err... At least there are other teams would happily take Stoudemire's or Anthony's contract in a heartbeat if New York seriously wanted to trade them. It's almost pure disrespect that you're comparing Stoudemire and Anthony to Curry and Marbury.

Donnie Walsh rebuilt the Knicks into a credible franchise after he was given a total shitstorm to work with.

[bagelred]

Really?:facepalm

Amare
25.3 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.9 BPG, 0.9 SPG, 50.2 FG%, $16.5 million

Dirky
23.0 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 2.6 APG, 0.6 BPG, 0.5 SPG, 51.7 FG%, $17.2 million



Looks like Knicks and Mavs in the same boat. Both overpaying for worthless one-dimensional players.




.

[FourthTenor]

Err... At least there are other teams would happily take Stoudemire's or Anthony's contract in a heartbeat if New York seriously wanted to trade them. It's almost pure disrespect that you're comparing Stoudemire and Anthony to Curry and Marbury.


Really, you think so?

Is that why Chicago wouldnt give up Noah and the Nets wouldnt give up Lopez to get Carmelo Anthony?

And didnt Phoenix try to trade Stoudamire but the going market rate was.... JJ Hickson?

Most teams would not even THINK about giving these guys 20M.... only the Knicks and a couple other poorly run franchises would.

[niko]

Really, you think so?

Is that why Chicago wouldnt give up Noah and the Nets wouldnt give up Lopez to get Carmelo Anthony?

And didnt Phoenix try to trade Stoudamire but the going market rate was.... JJ Hickson?

Most teams would not even THINK about giving these guys 20M.... only the Knicks and a couple other poorly run franchises would.
Not sure where you got your Nets info, but Cleveland was hestitant because they didn't know if he would resign. And the Stourdamire deal, you can arguee that one because his knee might explode. But $20M for Melo as a bad deal is ridiculous, he's a proven star that can carry a team. He's a potential ALL NBA first team type of guy. We shouldn't have gotten him to maintain flexibility? That's asinine.

We have a core that if the new CBA allows us will 100% draw another star. 100%. And you are comparing it to Curry and Marbury. How is that even reasonable?

[Kblaze8855]

Giving someone who ONLY does one basketball thing at an above average level (scoring) - making him a glorified role player - a contract that pays him 20 million per year

Somethingi ve wondered about your(to me...somewhat crazy) idea that people who do one thing well are automatically role players.


What does that make Dirk?

Not a very good rebounder(fell to 7 a game this year...as a 7 footer playing major minutes). Much improved defender but not someone you would bring in for defensive reasons unless he was replacing like...Brian Cook. Not an above average ball handler. Good passer for his size. Not just a great passer for an NBA player.

All Dirk does that is of note...is score. He shoots jumpers, FTs, and has become a good finisher. But there is nothing else to really talk about. doesnt mean he literally does nothing else. But there is nothing scoring aside...to really make a big deal out of.

Dirk, Gervin, Nique, Amare and so on...all role players by your standards. Yet clearly more effective players than some guys you wouldnt call a role player if being a role player means doing many things.

So what is the point of calling them out at all?

[LosBulls]

Giving someone who ONLY does one basketball thing at an above average level (scoring) - making him a glorified role player - a contract that pays him 20 million per year (and then turning around and doing the exact same thing to ANOTHER player) is reminiscent of what Isiah would do with someone like Marbury or Curry.

I know Walsh capitulated to Dolan on the Carmelo trade and perhaps did so on the Stoudamire signing as well, but how can you really argue Walsh did anything successful in NY?

Those are going to be two of the worst contracts in the league going forward. Not that the team is going to be top 5 in the lottery, but theyre not gonna be any better than average.

Teams with players like Marion and Scola and Randolph will all be just as good as them despite paying those players far less and having more money to spend on other players.


NYK seriously f'd up so badly its hilarious. They spent all that time getting rid of bad contracts just to give out two new ones.

I understand where you are coming from but you are wrong in so many ways. First of all, you are arguing that paying Amare 20mil was bad. If the Knicks wouldn't offer 20 mil then another team would so it is not really over paying him because that is what all the other teams with cap space and a spot at the 4 position would offer.

Second of all, you are trying to compare a star (Amare) to a slightly above average role player (Marion). Yes, they both give the same production but some production is just empty while other production can be more meaningful. If Marion and Amare played the same exact amount of minutes and had the same stats im pretty sure Amare's would be more valuable just for the fact that he draws double teams and puts up his numbers in more important situations.

The last reason why he got paid that money is because he would sell WAY more tickets than a player like Marion and he attracts other super stars like Carmelo Anthony.


/Thread

[blablabla]

:facepalm

[OriginalNameGuy]

Amar'e a glorified role player? That role player CARRIED the Knicks to the playoffs

[FourthTenor]

Teams with players like Marion and Scola and Randolph will all be just as good as them despite paying those players far less and having more money to spend on other players.

Dis is truuf.

Marion, Scola, Randolph are equal caliber players as Amare and Carmelo. In fact with comparable skill sets, the first group has much better basketball IQ and thus could be argued as better overall players. And they get paid less and play much more team-oriented.

Damn the knicks are a joke. But their fans dont know jack so they think because they've got two guys tony kornheiser considers superstars that its all peaches n cream from here.... :lol

[game3524]

Dis is truuf.

Marion, Scola, Randolph are equal caliber players as Amare and Carmelo. In fact with comparable skill sets, the first group has much better basketball IQ and thus could be argued as better overall players. And they get paid less and play much more team-oriented.

Damn the knicks are a joke. But their fans dont know jack so they think because they've got two guys tony kornheiser considers superstars that its all peaches n cream from here.... :lol

:roll:

Maybe Z-bo, but Marion and Scola is leading your team to the lottery.

[HylianNightmare]

marion turned it up in the finals for sure

[MeLO MvP 15]

This guy (OP) is just a big Knicks hater. Look at all the threads he makes... it's pathetic.

[dunksby]

Is this the new trend? or is it just that OP is a phagg?

[Ikill]

Amare is the second best big man scorer in the NBA he's a solid rebounder passer and shot blocker too that makes him a star. Its one thing to put up an inefficient 20 points on a bad team like Bargnani where Marion would be better but its completely different to put up an efficient 25 points on 50 60 win teams like Amare on the suns. Amare has put up 10 rebounds before he's put up 2 blocks before and 3 assists this year compared to other elite players yeah he might be one dimensional but compared to your average role player he's a great all around player.

[game3524]

Amare is the second best big man scorer in the NBA he's a solid rebounder passer and shot blocker too that makes him a star. Its one thing to put up an inefficient 20 points on a bad team like Bargnani where Marion would be better but its completely different to put up an efficient 25 points on 50 60 win teams like Amare on the suns. Amare has put up 10 rebounds before he's put up 2 blocks before and 3 assists this year compared to other elite players yeah he might be one dimensional but compared to your average role player he's a great all around player.

That is the thing I think people really overlook with Amare. The guy gives you 25 on 60 TS, that is insane.

Amare may be a piss poor defender, and inconsistent rebounder. But I could live with that if he was paired with someone to cover his weakness like a Chandler.

[bagelred]

You guys still respond to a thread FourthTumor creates? C'mon now.....

[Kevin_Gamble]

Err... At least there are other teams would happily take Stoudemire's or Anthony's contract in a heartbeat if New York seriously wanted to trade them. It's almost pure disrespect that you're comparing Stoudemire and Anthony to Curry and Marbury.

Donnie Walsh rebuilt the Knicks into a credible franchise after he was given a total shitstorm to work with.

How is Walsh's work as GM any better than Isaiah's? Marbury's Knicks were a .500 team, just as Carmelo and Amare's Knicks are.

Not to mention Isaiah, to begin with, inherited what is maybe the worst NBA roster ever, and he wasn't given the luxury of being allowed to not even try to win for a few years.

[bagelred]

How is Walsh's work as GM any better than Isaiah's? Marbury's Knicks were a .500 team, just as Carmelo and Amare's Knicks are.

.

You be stoopid.

[knickscity]

How is Walsh's work as GM any better than Isaiah's? Marbury's Knicks were a .500 team, just as Carmelo and Amare's Knicks are.

Not to mention Isaiah, to begin with, inherited what is maybe the worst NBA roster ever, and he wasn't given the luxury of being allowed to not even try to win for a few years.
:roll:

This is exactly what I needed today, a solid 5 minute laugh.

[Kevin_Gamble]

:roll:

This is exactly what I needed today, a solid 5 minute laugh.

The Knicks were barely over .500 last season. I fail to see the reason behind Knicks fans' optimism, and behind the perception that Donnie Walsh has somehow built a winner.

[magnax1]

I do think that signing Stoudamire was a poor idea. Him and Joe Johnson were the obvious don't touch guys to me in the free agent pool. They'd be better off trading him while his value is high for some good pieces around Melo, who is really a much better player.

[bagelred]

I do think that signing Stoudamire was a poor idea. Him and Joe Johnson were the obvious don't touch guys to me in the free agent pool. They'd be better off trading him while his value is high for some good pieces around Melo, who is really a much better player.

At least Amare doesn't "Karl Malone" in clutch situations......


:roll:

[GiveItToBurrito]

Giving someone who ONLY does one basketball thing at an above average level (scoring) - making him a glorified role player - a contract that pays him 20 million per year (and then turning around and doing the exact same thing to ANOTHER player) is reminiscent of what Isiah would do with someone like Marbury or Curry.

I know Walsh capitulated to Dolan on the Carmelo trade and perhaps did so on the Stoudamire signing as well, but how can you really argue Walsh did anything successful in NY?

Those are going to be two of the worst contracts in the league going forward. Not that the team is going to be top 5 in the lottery, but theyre not gonna be any better than average.

Teams with players like Marion and Scola and Randolph will all be just as good as them despite paying those players far less and having more money to spend on other players.


NYK seriously f'd up so badly its hilarious. They spent all that time getting rid of bad contracts just to give out two new ones.

It's like their entire front office subscribes to this logic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaVa6NHwUUg

[knickscity]

The Knicks were barely over .500 last season. I fail to see the reason behind Knicks fans' optimism, and behind the perception that Donnie Walsh has somehow built a winner.
Not one Knicks fan will say the Knicks are winners, or even contenders.

We still need more pieces, and honestly another coach.

But we are headed in a good direction.

That cannot be argued.

[FourthTenor]

You be stoopid.

LOL you obviously weren't stymied to argue otherwise so you basically conceded the point by saying something so stoopid.

Good job.

[GOBB]

Starface hates amare and melo. Not just because they are on the Knicks but he's bashed them before calling them overrated 1 dimensional players. Regardless I can't think of 10 better players without argument over amare or melo.

[knickswin]

because when they were playing next to each other in Phoenix Amar'e was clearly the superior player and averaged 37 points against Duncan while Marion was completely useless as a scorer and averaged 8 points for the series. Why? Because the Spurs realized all you have to do to limit Shawn Marion's scoring is box him out.

Shawn Marion and Amar'e Stoudemire aren't even close to being comparable.

[NuggetsFan]

This guy (OP) is just a big Knicks hater. Look at all the threads he makes... it's pathetic.

Not even. Guy just tries to hard to go against the grain. He's been saying these things about Melo for quite awhile. He doesn't realize that players that you BUILD an offense around are more valuable than the guy's who do the little things and can be had alot easier.

You need both to win. Melo|Amare are harder to come by.

[game3524]

Not even. Guy just tries to hard to go against the grain. He's been saying these things about Melo for quite awhile. He doesn't realize that players that you BUILD an offense around are more valuable than the guy's who do the little things and can be had alot easier.

You need both to win. Melo|Amare are harder to come by.

Exactly.

[magnax1]

At least Amare doesn't "Karl Malone" in clutch situations......


:roll:
What does Malone have to do with anything in this thread? Are you saying Amare's better then Malone? I don't get it.....

[The Ownage]

Teams with players like Marion and Scola and Randolph will all be just as good as them despite paying those players far less and having more money to spend on other players.

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/silverfox.gif

[Blue&Orange]

How is Walsh's work as GM any better than Isaiah's? Marbury's Knicks were a .500 team, just as Carmelo and Amare's Knicks are.

How am i not surprised by your opinion? If you were twice as smart, you'd still be retarded.

[FourthTenor]

Starface hates amare and melo. Not just because they are on the Knicks but he's bashed them before calling them overrated 1 dimensional players. Regardless I can't think of 10 better players without argument over amare or melo.


Yeah but I bet you could think of a LOT of players who are roughly equal and paid much less, which gives their teams more flexibility to create a complete roster.

[FourthTenor]

He doesn't realize that players that you BUILD an offense around are more valuable than the guy's who do the little things and can be had alot easier.


Why do you need to build an offense around one guy? George Karl didnt even try to build the offense around Melo, Melo insisted on building it around himself at the expense of the team, and as soon as he left it actually got BETTER. Karl didnt even like the way Melo plays the game, he practically said it in plain terms after the dude was traded.

The Knicks with Amare and Melo were NO BETTER than they were when they had Felton, Chandler, and Gallo.

This dumb fan mentality that there has to be a highlight reel player on offense or else it will stink is such moronic thinking. How nice to know you're in the herd.


I'm not surprised by the reactions in this thread tho. If you're a fan of Carmelo then obviously you have low bball IQ to begin with, and if you're a fan of the Knicks then you have an irrational bias and can't be honest because he's on your "team" and you take sports personally. Either way, you're dumb as bricks.

[Blue&Orange]

Yeah but I bet you could think of a LOT of players who are roughly equal and paid much less, which gives their teams more flexibility to create a complete roster.
Yep for sure. What Melo did to the Celtics, dime a dozen, players scoring 30++ for nine straight games, dime a dozen.

You're so smart.

[FourthTenor]

Yep for sure. What Melo did to the Celtics, dime a dozen, players scoring 30++ for nine straight games, dime a dozen.

You're so smart.

So he is to scoring what Kevin Love is to rebounding.

Empty stats.

[Blue&Orange]

Empty stats.
Yes empty stats, that thing morons invented and often use as an argument.

[knicksman]

scoring is like math. it is the most difficult subject. you need to have high IQ to be good at it. if you are good at it, then it follows then you can be good on easier subjects if you focus on it. thats why most of them dont care about other subjects coz they dont need to prove that they have high IQs while low IQs(like the OP) needs to get good grades on easier subjects just to show they are intelligent or earn respect from their classmates. but no matter how hard they try on other subjects, they will still be exposed when they go engineering in which they will fail on math subjects.

its the same with basketball, amare and melo are the best at scoring along with dirk and kobe, durant so they dont need to statpad or play defense( which requires lesser skills compared to scoring) to show that they are great. whereas lebron and wade need to statpad to earn respect among their peers. but at the end of the day, they still got exposed in the finals and lost to a player who is not good all around but the best at scoring.

and btw defense are for garbage players who have no talent like chandler who is considered bust. its like a prostitute who have no money and so is willing to sacrifice his body for that money. the same with defensive players, they are willing to sacrifice their bodies to take those contacts and be injured just to get those huge paychecks.

[knicksman]

Why do you need to build an offense around one guy? George Karl didnt even try to build the offense around Melo, Melo insisted on building it around himself at the expense of the team, and as soon as he left it actually got BETTER. Karl didnt even like the way Melo plays the game, he practically said it in plain terms after the dude was traded.



yup. that better team only won 1 game against oklahoma genius. Oklahoma who almost lost to an inferior team(compared to denver) in memphis.

[NuggetsFan]

So he is to scoring what Kevin Love is to rebounding.

Empty stats.

Are you seriously this f*cking dense? Why do people even attempt to use this argument with Melo. Guy hasn't missed the playoffs, won a national title as a freshman in college, broke the first round barrier on route to the WCF. I'll agree with anybody who says he's had his own individual shortcomings in the post season, but he's also had some big moments.

Empty stats like Kevin Love because Melo is so use to hitting up the lottery :oldlol:

BTW not even a fan of Melo anymore, hate the Knicks. Just find it hilarious how hard you try to come up with unique opinions, regardless of how wrong they are.

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/bmp/eda25608a17ae4f610f3e694ad3d32a06a10dd3.bmp

[bagelred]

Dirk 34.3 MPG, 23.0 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 2.6 APG, .9 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 51.7 FG%

Amare 36.8 MPG, 25.3 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 2.6 APG, .9 SPG, 1.9 BPG, 50.2 FG%


Pretty similar. I wonder if Dirk was a Knick, and Amare was a Mav....what people's perceptions would be. "Hahahaha.....Knicks gave Dirk big money.....he's such a loser. He's no Amare....."

[game3524]

yup. that better team only won 1 game against oklahoma genius. Oklahoma who almost lost to an inferior team(compared to denver) in memphis.

Yeah, Memphis actually has a star player who can take over in Z-bo. Denver after the Melo trade was a cute story, but honestly teams led by a ton of role players isn't going to win shit 90% of the time.

[bluechox2]

Yeah, Memphis actually has a star player who can take over in Z-bo. Denver after the Melo trade was a cute story, but honestly teams led by a ton of role players isn't going to win shit 90% of the time.
sixers can relate:applause:

[game3524]

sixers can relate:applause:

:oldlol:

Sadly, I would have to agree building your team around a 3rd option(Iggy) and a 2nd option(Brand) is a recipe for a first round defeat.

[KeylessEntry]

Randolph was earning 18m last season, basically the same as Stoudemire and Melo.

[bluechox2]

Randolph was earning 18m last season, basically the same as Stoudemire and Melo.
randolph is fools gold and hes fooled the fools in the grizzlies front office

[Joey Zaza]

If amare is a role player, then who is a star. If amare isn't a guy you build around -- who is...and if the thought is that you don't need a "superstar" (despite the fact that 30yrs of titles will tell you differently) but the (imaginary) equally productive guys for less money, who are these people?

Like GOBB says, who better?

[kentatm]

http://www.homepagedaily.com/uploads/20090625/2a6bbf24-7240-42cf-a66d-08af259da8a7/starface.jpg

[step_back]

Amar'e was the best Power Forward acquisition this year (Dirk re-signed) He was the leader of the Knicks and did a damm good job getting them back into the playoffs. Apart from Rose I'd trade anyone on our roster to get the guy.

A duo of Melo and Amar'e is deadly, who wouldn't want to play with those two. A guy like Chris Paul to run that offence and the knicks are right up there with the best of them.

[LJJ]

If amare is a role player, then who is a star. If amare isn't a guy you build around -- who is...and if the thought is that you don't need a "superstar" (despite the fact that 30yrs of titles will tell you differently) but the (imaginary) equally productive guys for less money, who are these people?

Like GOBB says, who better?

I think his point is pretty clear and not as insane as some people in this thread like to believe, when you take away his hyperbolic style.


Superstars:
LeBron James - Top five scorer in the league. The Best facilitator at his position. Top five rebounder at his position. Top five defender at his position.
Dwight Howard - The best scorer at his position. The most significant defender in the league. The best rebounder in the league.
Dwyane Wade - Top five scorer in the league. The best rebounder at his position. Top five defender at his position. One of the best facilitators at his position. (trolls: just trying to make a point, please don't make this in a LeBron chokes or whatever thread on my account, stay on topic)

Not superstars:
Amare Stoudemire - Top ten scorer in the league. Below average everything else.


Now don't get me wrong; I think it's fantastic to have a player like Amare Stoudemire on your team and he is worth the max contract because there are few guys in the league who can do what he does and all of them earn the max anyway. But he is an elite scorer, not on the same level of stars who do multiple things really well.

Another point here is the Knicks management. They have Anthony and Stoudemire signed to long term max deals. They traded away A LOT of value to get Anthony. Both of these players are forwards. Both of these players can score at will with the ball in there hands. Both players are not very good at anything else. Does this create a redundancy when there is so much besides on-the-ball scoring that needs to be done in basketball? I think so. Melo-Stoudemire is not one of the better star combinations you can make in the NBA, and it's not the formula for success. Let's face it, despite the outrageous way starface tries to troll you guys, fundamentally he has a point here.

[Joey Zaza]

I think his point is pretty clear and not as insane as some people in this thread like to believe, when you take away his hyperbolic style.


Superstars:
LeBron James - Top five scorer in the league. The Best facilitator at his position. Top five rebounder at his position. Top five defender at his position.
Dwight Howard - The best scorer at his position. The most significant defender in the league. The best rebounder in the league.
Dwyane Wade - Top five scorer in the league. The best rebounder at his position. Top five defender at his position. One of the best facilitators at his position.


So, in other words - there are three superstars in the league (can we keep the KObe fans away and say there arew 4 superstars, Kobe is one of them). Two of them the Knicks tried to get but due to situations beyond their and every other team besides miami's - control, they could not. AND Howard is still on his rookie deal-extension with Orl. so NYK can't get him either..and Kobe is never leaving LA

So how does this make Walsh a poor GM, or just another Isiah? Isn't everyone just another Isiah - except for Riley, Buss and the Geniuses in Orl?


Another point here is the Knicks management. They have Anthony and Stoudemire signed to long term max deals. They traded away A LOT of value to get Anthony. Both of these players are forwards. Both of these players can score at will with the ball in there hands.

It may not be a great fit, but I disagree that they gave up alot of value. Chandler could not financially be part of the long-term plan - unless the plan was amare and role players (which was working, but not at the highest level), Gallo plays the same position as Melo except was even more limited in his skill set, and Mozgov just wasn't really good. (If he becomes M.Gsasol in the next 3 years I'll eat my words, but as of now, he's a BIG undrafted, unheralded project). We miss Felton. He was only on a 2-yr deal anyway. If next year we want him back, we can get him.

AND, with respect to the team-building concept - they have 2 of the best "non-superstars" in the league signed through their primes. I'll take that over 25 of the other rosters in this league.

The only rosters I prefer long term - Miami, LAL, OKC, maybe Chi...am I missing one?

[Kevin_Gamble]

So, in other words - there are three superstars in the league (can we keep the KObe fans away and say there arew 4 superstars, Kobe is one of them). Two of them the Knicks tried to get but due to situations beyond their and every other team besides miami's - control, they could not. AND Howard is still on his rookie deal-extension with Orl. so NYK can't get him either..and Kobe is never leaving LA

So how does this make Walsh a poor GM, or just another Isiah? Isn't everyone just another Isiah - except for Riley, Buss and the Geniuses in Orl?


You make a lot of great points, but I will add this: Isaiah had the same constraints when he was the GM, AND he didn't have the luxury of purposefully blowing up the roster.

I know that this thread is primarily about how the Knicks currently don't have any chance, but I always thought it was unfair to Isaiah to blame him for the job he did as the Knicks GM. If Steph and Curry stay healthy and play together, they are a .500 team and do exactly as well as the current Knicks.

[niko]

I think his point is pretty clear and not as insane as some people in this thread like to believe, when you take away his hyperbolic style.


Superstars:
LeBron James - Top five scorer in the league. The Best facilitator at his position. Top five rebounder at his position. Top five defender at his position.
Dwight Howard - The best scorer at his position. The most significant defender in the league. The best rebounder in the league.
Dwyane Wade - Top five scorer in the league. The best rebounder at his position. Top five defender at his position. One of the best facilitators at his position. (trolls: just trying to make a point, please don't make this in a LeBron chokes or whatever thread on my account, stay on topic)

Not superstars:
Amare Stoudemire - Top ten scorer in the league. Below average everything else.


Now don't get me wrong; I think it's fantastic to have a player like Amare Stoudemire on your team and he is worth the max contract because there are few guys in the league who can do what he does and all of them earn the max anyway. But he is an elite scorer, not on the same level of stars who do multiple things really well.

Another point here is the Knicks management. They have Anthony and Stoudemire signed to long term max deals. They traded away A LOT of value to get Anthony. Both of these players are forwards. Both of these players can score at will with the ball in there hands. Both players are not very good at anything else. Does this create a redundancy when there is so much besides on-the-ball scoring that needs to be done in basketball? I think so. Melo-Stoudemire is not one of the better star combinations you can make in the NBA, and it's not the formula for success. Let's face it, despite the outrageous way starface tries to troll you guys, fundamentally he has a point here.

i hate when people do this. Someone says "THIS PLAYER SUCKS". Person B defends it by saying "it's not ridiculous, because player C,D,E are better, than Person B, so he's not the best, so it's not ridiculous".

THat's not what he is saying. He is saying that Walsh is no better than Isiah and that Amare and Melo, two all star starter level players, are no better acquisitions/signings than Isiah did. That is an asinine point. Saying "they might not be the best fit so he's right" is asinine. That's not his point. He's saying these are (comparing to Isiah) terrible signings. That's retarded.

OP just has a bug up his ass about the Knicks, must be fan of one of those crappy small market teams whose stars dream of NY. Get over it.

[Joey Zaza]

You make a lot of great points, but I will add this: Isaiah had the same constraints when he was the GM, AND he didn't have the luxury of purposefully blowing up the roster.

I know that this thread is primarily about how the Knicks currently don't have any chance, but I always thought it was unfair to Isaiah to blame him for the job he did as the Knicks GM. If Steph and Curry stay healthy and play together, they are a .500 team and do exactly as well as the current Knicks.

IT never rebuilt because IT came in selling quick fixes and spent his career here chasing them. His first move was a cap-killer that no one in the league would touch. Expirers and picks for prime Marbury and expensive past-prime Penny. Two guys taking up half the team's cap for multiple years. Only Marbury was good and at that time Marbury was not as good as current Amare or Melo.

After that he engaged in at-least 3 different rebuilding plans. One was all about the guards...it was going to be two electric guards (Crawf and Marbury) under Wilkins. Then he went and got Curry, Lee, Frye, and James (all in the same summer) and we were going to be a big team (under Brown) focussing on Curry. Then we got a quick fix in Francis. then another quick fix in Rose. Then he was going to coach and run a speed offense (his words) with Frye but then got Randolph and he was going to work with Curry, despite being completely mismatched--Curry couldn't board or work outside and neither defended or passed the ball.

IT couldn't do what Walsh did because he never stuck to one plan for longer than a season (if that), the plans never matched the talent because he was so desperate for quick wins and quick fixes through "big names" that he would take any big contract made available and try to fit square pegs into holes that were already filled.

Curry/Marb on their best days were never as good as Stoud/Melo. The pieces around them were always mismatched. There was no Landry Fields on those teams (maybe Q/Antonio Davis for a good run)...no one just looking to fit in and play a role (He wanted Frye to be a star, than Nate rob -- no role players on those teams, ever) and they had no roles to play.

[LJJ]

It may not be a great fit, but I disagree that they gave up alot of value. Chandler could not financially be part of the long-term plan - unless the plan was amare and role players (which was working, but not at the highest level), Gallo plays the same position as Melo except was even more limited in his skill set, and Mozgov just wasn't really good. (If he becomes M.Gsasol in the next 3 years I'll eat my words, but as of now, he's a BIG undrafted, unheralded project). We miss Felton. He was only on a 2-yr deal anyway. If next year we want him back, we can get him.

AND, with respect to the team-building concept - they have 2 of the best "non-superstars" in the league signed through their primes. I'll take that over 25 of the other rosters in this league.

The only rosters I prefer long term - Miami, LAL, OKC, maybe Chi...am I missing one?

Felton, Gallinari, Chandler. That's basically three starters in this league. More than roleplayers, one with highly regarded potential still. Also: Anthony Randolph (who averaged 12-5 since leaving NYC). And two first rounders.

The Knicks have traded away all their assets and gutted their lineup just to get another first option pure scoring forward. That is not good management. This is a case of love makes blind, don't come crying on ISH when five years down the line the Knicks have 5 first and second round exits to show for it.

[niko]

Felton, Gallinari, Chandler. That's basically three starters in this league. More than roleplayers, one with highly regarded potential still. Also: Anthony Randolph (who averaged 12-5 since leaving NYC). And two first rounders.

The Knicks have traded away all their assets and gutted their lineup just to get another first option pure scoring forward. That is not good management. This is a case of love makes blind, don't come crying on ISH when five years down the line the Knicks have 5 first and second round exits to show for it.
We traded three average starters (one who has above average potential in Gallinari) for Melo. And Randolph who never played for us. For Melo, who is an all star starter. OMG. That's just awful. How will we ever replace all those role players?

Let's put it this way, does anyone who has a star who does not want to leave, trade them for a sucession of role players? No? YOu know why? Because it's stupid. The only teams who ever move stars are teams who know teh star either wants to leave, or has to leave (the marriage is no longer working). No one who has a star playing well trades him for depth.

Silly...

[Joey Zaza]

Felton, Gallinari, Chandler. That's basically three starters in this league. More than roleplayers, one with highly regarded potential still. Also: Anthony Randolph (who averaged 12-5 since leaving NYC). And two first rounders.


Felton is good and a starter and he will be a FA in 1 season (as he would have been for the K). Gallo plays he same positon as Melo. All the criticisms about Melo, defense, needs the ball, apply equally if not greater than Galo. Moreover, Gallo will go multiple games without showing up. Additinally Melo>Gallo b/c melo is as pure a SF as there is in the game right now. Gallo does not have a position. He didn't have the speed to play SF and not the strength to play PF.

Chandler is a FA this summer. His ankles are shot (it was every year and constant monitoring)and if this lockout ever ends, it still will be 5 yrs/$50 mill b/c some dummy team (minn) will want him. The K probably didn't want to lock up their cap with an athletic swing with questionable ankles - when these guys are in every draft.

We will see if Melo works out but even if he doesn't, that team Chand-Gallo-Stoud-Felt's upside was current Atlanta...and Amare never would have finished the contract. The pounding, the minutes, the defense on him was too great.

[LJJ]

We traded three average starters (one who has above average potential in Gallinari) for Melo. And Randolph who never played for us. For Melo, who is an all star starter. OMG. That's just awful. How will we ever replace all those role players?

Let's put it this way, does anyone who has a star who does not want to leave, trade them for a sucession of role players? No? YOu know why? Because it's stupid. The only teams who ever move stars are teams who know teh star either wants to leave, or has to leave (the marriage is no longer working). No one who has a star playing well trades him for depth.

Silly...

Yes I know why. You need to turn that around. No team has two all stars who are so redundant.

If a team had Chris Paul and Deron Williams? Hell yes they would trade Williams for three young average or above starters and two first rounders. In a heart beat.

[Joey Zaza]

Yes I know why. You need to turn that around. No team has two all stars who are so redundant.

If a team had Chris Paul and Deron Williams? Hell yes they would trade Williams for three young average or above starters and two first rounders. In a heart beat.

Are they so redundant...a pf and a sf. The both play inside and out but Melo plays much more outside and Amare plays much more in. Occassionally Melo will over-handle and break the offense, but amare really doesn't. Even when he had the key for the whole first half, it was catch and move. So that is not redundant either.

They both score. Melo is a really solid rebounder for his position,. they are both capable passers for their respective positions.

To me, the biggest problem with the team is not really redundancy. Its more about creation. They are both finishers - Amare around the rim, Melo from mid-range - and not really creators. They can both create for themselves, but not really for others. They are f's, so its not a true weakness, but a fact of being f's. We need a pg--a better one than Billups.

[knickswin]

Are they so redundant...a pf and a sf. The both play inside and out but Melo plays much more outside and Amare plays much more in. Occassionally Melo will over-handle and break the offense, but amare really doesn't. Even when he had the key for the whole first half, it was catch and move. So that is not redundant either.

They both score. Melo is a really solid rebounder for his position,. they are both capable passers for their respective positions.

To me, the biggest problem with the team is not really redundancy. Its more about creation. They are both finishers - Amare around the rim, Melo from mid-range - and not really creators. They can both create for themselves, but not really for others. They are f's, so its not a true weakness, but a fact of being f's. We need a pg--a better one than Billups.

Chris. Paul.

[LJJ]

Are they so redundant...a pf and a sf. The both play inside and out but Melo plays much more outside and Amare plays much more in. Occassionally Melo will over-handle and break the offense, but amare really doesn't. Even when he had the key for the whole first half, it was catch and move. So that is not redundant either.

They both score. Melo is a really solid rebounder for his position,. they are both capable passers for their respective positions.

To me, the biggest problem with the team is not really redundancy. Its more about creation. They are both finishers - Amare around the rim, Melo from mid-range - and not really creators. They can both create for themselves, but not really for others. They are f's, so its not a true weakness, but a fact of being f's. We need a pg--a better one than Billups.

It's funny, because you first ask the question whether they are so redundant or not, and then you proceed to point out in your second paragraph why they are so redundant. Neither of them can facilitate shit. Neither of them play off the ball. They are both pure solitary scorers who create for themselves with the ball and don't do much else.

It's the forward equivalent of teaming up Derrick Rose with Kobe Bryant. Very talented, but you'd much rather pair either of them up with a great front court player.



Chris. Paul.

I love Chris Paul, but you are aware that basketball is played with 1 ball? The whole point of having a guy like Melo is that you don't need Chris Paul to set him up.

[knicksman]

It's funny, because you first ask the question whether they are so redundant or not, and then you proceed to point out in your second paragraph why they are so redundant. Neither of them can facilitate shit. Neither of them play off the ball. They are both pure solitary scorers who create for themselves with the ball and don't do much else.

It's the forward equivalent of teaming up Derrick Rose with Kobe Bryant. Very talented, but you'd much rather pair either of them up with a great front court player.




I love Chris Paul, but you are aware that basketball is played with 1 ball? The whole point of having a guy like Melo is that you don't need Chris Paul to set him up.

as if pg/big man combo has won in this league. LOL at this redundant. lebron and wade didnt win not because they are redundant but because they both cant shoot. they are problems when it comes to spacing. and i dont care if they are superstars or not. the way i judge players is their ability to score first then all around second. and both amare and melo are better scorers than wade and bron so they are better than those chokers. thats why dirk, kobe, allen and pierce won while those two didnt because they are not as good when it comes to scoring.

and why are you comparing two perimeter players to a big man genius? its not the perimeter players that win in this league, its the big men. and melo is the best fit because he is the best scorer in the perimeter and amare is the best at the paint so there would be no spacing problems.

[Rnbizzle]

Giving someone who ONLY does one basketball thing at an above average level (scoring) - making him a glorified role player - a contract that pays him 20 million per year (and then turning around and doing the exact same thing to ANOTHER player) is reminiscent of what Isiah would do with someone like Marbury or Curry.

I know Walsh capitulated to Dolan on the Carmelo trade and perhaps did so on the Stoudamire signing as well, but how can you really argue Walsh did anything successful in NY?

Those are going to be two of the worst contracts in the league going forward. Not that the team is going to be top 5 in the lottery, but theyre not gonna be any better than average.

Teams with players like Marion and Scola and Randolph will all be just as good as them despite paying those players far less and having more money to spend on other players.


NYK seriously f'd up so badly its hilarious. They spent all that time getting rid of bad contracts just to give out two new ones.
Amar'e and Melo are on a whole nother level.. I don't see how you can call these bad contracts. Melo is arguably a top 5 player in the league..

[Blue&Orange]

It's funny, because you first ask the question whether they are so redundant or not, and then you proceed to point out in your second paragraph why they are so redundant. Neither of them can facilitate shit. Neither of them play off the ball. They are both pure solitary scorers who create for themselves with the ball and don't do much else.

Melo was the 5th best passing SF in the league, and of the TOP5 the best assist turnover ratio. Amare 7th, same assists than Dirk. Can someone explain me how it this horrible? Pure solitary scorers? can't facilitate? One has to never seen Melo play to think he can't pass.

Melo was the 3rd best rebounder SF in the league, someone should tell him that he is supposed to not do much else. Amare was the 15th best PF rebounder, no great, but not horrible, he is 0.1 ,behind Bosh, that is as we know 100x times better... and 0.7 from the 6th.

Melo 12th in blocks, Amare 2nd... Melo 3th at going to the line, Amare 2nd...

To put things in perspective some of the guys that were ahead of Amare in rebound don't even crack top20 in blocks or top 30 in drawing fouls.

One dimensional players? Well i guess 99% of the league is one dimensional player then.

And you're wrong, but let's say that you're right, neither of them can facilitate shit or play off the ball. This would make them redundant? Two measly traits. Well again 99% of the league is redundant then.

[Joey Zaza]

It's funny, because you first ask the question whether they are so redundant or not, and then you proceed to point out in your second paragraph why they are so redundant. Neither of them can facilitate shit. Neither of them play off the ball. They are both pure solitary scorers who create for themselves with the ball and don't do much else.



I think you don't watch alot of Amare. He sets up away from the ball, makes a move and goes to the basket or pulls up for a jumper or catches the ball on the run for a finish. He doesn't facilitate, but he is not a solitary scorer.

He and Carmelo are different players....except that they both score alot.

[Joey Zaza]

Melo was the 5th best passing SF in the league, and of the TOP5 the best assist turnover ratio. Amare 7th, same assists than Dirk. Can someone explain me how it this horrible? Pure solitary scorers? can't facilitate? One has to never seen Melo play to think he can't pass.

Melo was the 3rd best rebounder SF in the league, someone should tell him that he is supposed to not do much else. Amare was the 15th best PF rebounder, no great, but not horrible, he is 0.1 ,behind Bosh, that is as we know 100x times better... and 0.7 from the 6th.

Melo 12th in blocks, Amare 2nd... Melo 3th at going to the line, Amare 2nd...

To put things in perspective some of the guys that were ahead of Amare in rebound don't even crack top20 in blocks or top 30 in drawing fouls.

One dimensional players? Well i guess 99% of the league is one dimensional player then.

And you're wrong, but let's say that you're right, neither of them can facilitate shit or play off the ball. This would make them redundant? Two measly traits. Well again 99% of the league is redundant then.

Forget everything that I wrote---co-sign with this guy

[NuggetsFan]

Does anybody know how protected the two first round picks NY traded to Denver are? Pretty sure there in '14 and '16.

[LJJ]

Melo was the 5th best passing SF in the league, and of the TOP5 the best assist turnover ratio. Amare 7th, same assists than Dirk. Can someone explain me how it this horrible? Pure solitary scorers? can't facilitate? One has to never seen Melo play to think he can't pass.

Melo was the 3rd best rebounder SF in the league, someone should tell him that he is supposed to not do much else. Amare was the 15th best PF rebounder, no great, but not horrible, he is 0.1 ,behind Bosh, that is as we know 100x times better... and 0.7 from the 6th.

Melo 12th in blocks, Amare 2nd... Melo 3th at going to the line, Amare 2nd...

To put things in perspective some of the guys that were ahead of Amare in rebound don't even crack top20 in blocks or top 30 in drawing fouls.

One dimensional players? Well i guess 99% of the league is one dimensional player then.

And you're wrong, but let's say that you're right, neither of them can facilitate shit or play off the ball. This would make them redundant? Two measly traits. Well again 99% of the league is redundant then.

All you are doing right now is prove you don't watch the game.

Melo has the fifth most assists of all small forwards? Less than three a game? Be happy about it, it's a meaningless statistic and the reason is this: have you ever seen how much Anthony has the ball in his hands during a game? You are comparing Anthony to Gerald Wallace or Luol Deng, who do not nearly get the amount of touches or freedom Anthony gets. (but still somehow get roughly the same amount of assists :?, because Melo is a great passer? What you lost me)

Stoudemire was the 15th best rebounder at PF, but he plays way more minutes than most of the guys below him. 2nd in blocks? Color me unimpressed. The guy plays no defense and has elite athleticism. Or are you going to tell me Amare plays defense now? Lol. Also, who is he rebounding with? Jared Jeffries snatching away his rebound? Lol.

But if you want to pretend Anthony and Stoudemire have some all around game go right ahead. Stoudemire is a decent rebounder, a good defender at his position a good facilitator and has a fantastic versatile game. And Carmelo Anthony is an elite passer at his position, a top 3 rebounder and good defender.

And next season is going to be amazing! Amare Stoudemire is going to patrol the paint on D (:oldlol: ), Anthony is going to lock down other elite swingmen (:oldlol: ), both of them are going to make sure the Knicks outrebound their opponents (:oldlol: ). Then on offense Amare is going to work the low post (:oldlol: ) then he will pass it out of the double team (:oldlol:) to Melo who will be open because of his great off-the-ball movement (:oldlol: ) and together they will be an unstoppable offensive tandem who will get eachother better looks (:oldlol: ) due to high IQ play (:oldlol: ), and they aren't redundant at all. (:roll:)

Good lord, this fairy tale the Knicks fans live in is unbearable. Next season is going end with a first round exit again. Well, maybe they will actually win a game in the playoffs this time. Maybe Anthony will even shoot over 40% this time. But it's not going to diminish Knicks fans morale either way, because they be getting Chris Paul in the off season. :oldlol:







Forget everything that I wrote

Aaaaand. Done!

[Kevin_Gamble]

as if pg/big man combo has won in this league. LOL at this redundant. lebron and wade didnt win not because they are redundant but because they both cant shoot. they are problems when it comes to spacing. and i dont care if they are superstars or not. the way i judge players is their ability to score first then all around second. and both amare and melo are better scorers than wade and bron so they are better than those chokers. thats why dirk, kobe, allen and pierce won while those two didnt because they are not as good when it comes to scoring.


Wait, Lebron and Wade can't score as well as Dirk, Kobe, Allen, and Pierce?

What's next, you are going to tell us Amare can rebound and Melo can pass?

[knicksman]

Wait, Lebron and Wade can't score as well as Dirk, Kobe, Allen, and Pierce?

What's next, you are going to tell us Amare can rebound and Melo can pass?

they can score alot because of their athleticism not because they have good jumpers. in playoffs, players are willing to put a body on them unlike in the regular season. dont be fooled by their stats. when i say good scorers, those players who can score through jumpshots and not through going to the basket alone.

[knicksman]

jordan and pippen are redundant but that doesnt stop them from winning chips.

[NuggetsFan]

jordan and pippen are redundant but that doesnt stop them from winning chips.

Is this a joke? Both Jordan|Pippen could run the offense. Both lockdown defenders. Pippen is still one of the most versatile forwards to play the game. Not to mention Jordan was clearly superior and Pippen fit into that 2nd option role perfectly. Both players could do whatever was asked.

Bad example.

[Blue&Orange]

All you are doing right now is prove you don't watch the game.

lol the expected moronic "Stats means shit, i watch games!!!"

Translation:
I'm a delusional moron, reality and facts mean jack shit, my opinion is all that matters.

Melo has more assists because he got more touches, Amare rebounds more because he got more minutes, he block more because he is more athletic, bla, bla, bla, what's you're education? 4th grade?

And 10 smileys? Are they proportional to how bad your owned?

[tpols]

lol the expected moronic "Stats means shit, i watch games!!!"

Translation:
I'm a delusional moron, reality and facts mean jack shit, my opinion is all that matters.

Melo has more assists because he got more touches, Amare rebounds more because he got more minutes, he block more because he is more athletic, bla, bla, bla, what's you're education? 4th grade?

And 10 smileys? Are they proportional to how bad your owned?
I'm sorry but your stats in your post there weren't that signifigant at all.. Like comparing Amare's playmaking to Dirk's when:

a) Dirk is far from a great passer/playmaker
b) Dirk played much worse in the regular season than he did in the playoffs
c) You're using Dirk's current high standing and success to try and make amare look like he's in his class thus propping him up artificailly.

Using blocks to justify defense is also a terrible benchmark.. Amare's positional defense, paint/rim protection, and man defense are all supbar for a power forward. He averaged under 8rpg in a high paced offense where a lot of rebounds were available. You should look at his total rebound percentage which measures how much he gobbles up boards relative to how many opportunities he gets at them. He averaged a very pedestrian and below average 12.7%..

All of these 'sos and so was 3rd in the league in assists at his position' doesn't mean much because there are only around 5 players at each the PF and the SF positions that are even all stars in this league and the players were comparing them to here are supposedly superstars.. so they SHOULD be doing better than those guys across the board given how much more they get to have control of the ball than those guys and given the fact that they are better than them.

[knickswin]

But if you want to pretend Anthony and Stoudemire have some all around game go right ahead. Stoudemire is a decent rebounder, a good defender at his position a good facilitator and has a fantastic versatile game. And Carmelo Anthony is an elite passer at his position, a top 3 rebounder and good defender.

And next season is going to be amazing! Amare Stoudemire is going to patrol the paint on D (:oldlol: ), Anthony is going to lock down other elite swingmen (:oldlol: ), both of them are going to make sure the Knicks outrebound their opponents (:oldlol: ). Then on offense Amare is going to work the low post (:oldlol: ) then he will pass it out of the double team (:oldlol:) to Melo who will be open because of his great off-the-ball movement (:oldlol: ) and together they will be an unstoppable offensive tandem who will get eachother better looks (:oldlol: ) due to high IQ play (:oldlol: ), and they aren't redundant at all. (:roll:)



You're right about some of this stuff, Amar'e is not a good rebounder or defender especially during the regular season when he doesn't care much about rebounding and spaces out on defense. He seemed to step up the intensity on both of these ends during the playoffs. Fundamentally he is not a good rebounder, but because he's long and athletic he can grab a bunch just by jumping in the air when he feels like it.

No one claims that Amar'e has a low post game or that he's great at passing out of double teams. He's a pick and roll player and high post slasher. That's always been his game no one was claiming otherwise. He is not a low post presence, but he is a paint presence.

Carmelo is not a bad passer. Part of the reason he averages low assists is that he plays in the low post so a lot of the time the second pass is the good look so he gets the "hockey assist." Also Denver for whatever reason ran their offense through his low post game but then had little player movement around him to pass out of it which is just dumb. He was put in a point forward role for stretches on the Knicks when Chauncey was injured and was actually pretty capable running it. He can be a lacksadaisical defender, but he is a good man defender when he tries.

They both are very capable of moving without the ball.

The Knicks MO in the regular season is going to be to outgun teams and that should probably work enough for them to get around 50 wins. The problems you stated are going to be bigger issues in the playoffs. I think it's better if Amar'e plays more as a finisher so that we don't have to deal with his turnovers when he tries to iso into double teams. Carmelo is not a low IQ player at all so I don't worry about what he's going to do. They both need to make sure to put in some effort on defense.

[knicksman]

I'm sorry but your stats in your post there weren't that signifigant at all.. Like comparing Amare's playmaking to Dirk's when:

a) Dirk is far from a great passer/playmaker
b) Dirk played much worse in the regular season than he did in the playoffs
c) You're using Dirk's current high standing and success to try and make amare look like he's in his class thus propping him up artificailly.

Using blocks to justify defense is also a terrible benchmark.. Amare's positional defense, paint/rim protection, and man defense are all supbar for a power forward. He averaged under 8rpg in a high paced offense where a lot of rebounds were available. You should look at his total rebound percentage which measures how much he gobbles up boards relative to how many opportunities he gets at them. He averaged a very pedestrian and below average 12.7%..

All of these 'sos and so was 3rd in the league in assists at his position' doesn't mean much because there are only around 5 players at each the PF and the SF positions that are even all stars in this league and the players were comparing them to here are supposedly superstars.. so they SHOULD be doing better than those guys across the board given how much more they get to have control of the ball than those guys and given the fact that they are better than them.

dirk who had been out of the first round for multiple years. dirk who got lucky coz all the contenders from last season were gone. lakers and spurs are already old, jazz and suns lost their big men, injury to roy for the blazers. nuggets actually beat the mavs during the regular when melo was still there. thats why the 8 seeded oklahoma last season made it to the conference finals. if amare was still on the suns, dirk wont be winning his chip right now genius the same if melo was still on the nuggets.

[knickswin]

dirk who had been out of the first round for multiple years. dirk who got lucky coz all the contenders from last season were gone. lakers and spurs are already old, jazz and suns lost their big men, injury to roy for the blazers. nuggets actually beat the mavs during the regular when melo was still there. thats why the 8 seeded oklahoma last season made it to the conference finals. if amare was still on the suns, dirk wont be winning his chip right now genius the same if melo was still on the nuggets.

Who knows what would have happened if Melo were still on the Nuggets and Amare were still on the Suns? Doesn't really matter. The Mavericks won a championship and beat some pretty good teams getting there.

[FourthTenor]

I think his point is pretty clear and not as insane as some people in this thread like to believe, when you take away his hyperbolic style.


Superstars:
LeBron James - Top five scorer in the league. The Best facilitator at his position. Top five rebounder at his position. Top five defender at his position.
Dwight Howard - The best scorer at his position. The most significant defender in the league. The best rebounder in the league.
Dwyane Wade - Top five scorer in the league. The best rebounder at his position. Top five defender at his position. One of the best facilitators at his position. (trolls: just trying to make a point, please don't make this in a LeBron chokes or whatever thread on my account, stay on topic)

Not superstars:
Amare Stoudemire - Top ten scorer in the league. Below average everything else.


Now don't get me wrong; I think it's fantastic to have a player like Amare Stoudemire on your team and he is worth the max contract because there are few guys in the league who can do what he does and all of them earn the max anyway. But he is an elite scorer, not on the same level of stars who do multiple things really well.

Another point here is the Knicks management. They have Anthony and Stoudemire signed to long term max deals. They traded away A LOT of value to get Anthony. Both of these players are forwards. Both of these players can score at will with the ball in there hands. Both players are not very good at anything else. Does this create a redundancy when there is so much besides on-the-ball scoring that needs to be done in basketball? I think so. Melo-Stoudemire is not one of the better star combinations you can make in the NBA, and it's not the formula for success. Let's face it, despite the outrageous way starface tries to troll you guys, fundamentally he has a point here.

Yeah, this.

People are letting the media dictate to them who is a "superstar"

Amare and Carmelo are explosive scorers and that translates into media exposure. That doesn't mean they are better than other players with less media exposure.

Last year the Mavs were eliminated in the first round. Their core team (Dirk, Terry, Kidd) was the same, but which two additions propelled them all the way to a championship this year? Marion and Chandler. Replace Chandler with Dampier and add Melo, they don't win. Melo takes a bunch of touches from Dirk and uses them less efficiently. Meanwhile their difference-making play at the rim disappears and costs them a title.

The truth in basketball is that it doesnt matter WHO scores. It doesn't matter whether Carmelo gets 35 or a bunch of Denver Nuggets get 12. Fans just love to see one player put up big scoring numbers. The Golden State Warriors throw up 135 a night with D-League callups. Scoring is a replaceable facet of the game. What matters is rebounding and team defense. For the Mavericks, Dirk and guys like Terry and Barrea did the scoring just like they did last year - what changed was rebounding and team defense. Thanks to Marion and Chandler.

Rebounding and team defense is always what made Lebron-Wade such a suffocating duo. Scoring wise they actually were fairly redundant, and could have accomplished the same things offensively by just surrounding either one with role players, rather than them just taking turns. The difference was having two guys who are so dominant in every other category on the court together.

The Knicks, with Anthony and Stoudamire, have no rebounding or team defense. Those guys aren't even good at facilitating either. Seriously, they aren't superstars. With Amare the Knicks were .500 before Carmelo got there, without Carmelo the Nuggets stayed an above-500 team, with Amare and Carmelo the Knicks stayed a .500 team. They all were what they were the whole time.

LOL this is just silly. Anyone who thinks Amare + Carmelo is a "superstar duo" and is anything close to being worth two max contracts worth of cap flexbility is clearly bias (like the knicks fans in this thread) or just simply very shallow minded when it comes to team sports.

[knicksman]

Yeah, this.

People are letting the media dictate to them who is a "superstar"

Amare and Carmelo are explosive scorers and that translates into media exposure. That doesn't mean they are better than other players with less media exposure.

Last year the Mavs were eliminated in the first round. Their core team (Dirk, Terry, Kidd) was the same, but which two additions propelled them all the way to a championship this year? Marion and Chandler. Replace Chandler with Dampier and add Melo, they don't win. Melo takes a bunch of touches from Dirk and uses them less efficiently. Meanwhile their difference-making play at the rim disappears and costs them a title.

The truth in basketball is that it doesnt matter WHO scores. It doesn't matter whether Carmelo gets 35 or a bunch of Denver Nuggets get 12. Fans just love to see one player put up big scoring numbers. The Golden State Warriors throw up 135 a night with D-League callups. Scoring is a replaceable facet of the game. What matters is rebounding and team defense. For the Mavericks, Dirk and guys like Terry and Barrea did the scoring just like they did last year - what changed was rebounding and team defense. Thanks to Marion and Chandler.

Rebounding and team defense is always what made Lebron-Wade such a suffocating duo. Scoring wise they actually were fairly redundant, and could have accomplished the same things offensively by just surrounding either one with role players, rather than them just taking turns. The difference was having two guys who are so dominant in every other category on the court together.

The Knicks, with Anthony and Stoudamire, have no rebounding or team defense. Those guys aren't even good at facilitating either. Seriously, they aren't superstars. With Amare the Knicks were .500 before Carmelo got there, without Carmelo the Nuggets stayed an above-500 team, with Amare and Carmelo the Knicks stayed a .500 team. They all were what they were the whole time.

LOL this is just silly. Anyone who thinks Amare + Carmelo is a "superstar duo" and is anything close to being worth two max contracts worth of cap flexbility is clearly bias (like the knicks fans in this thread) or just simply very shallow minded when it comes to team sports.

na pierce and allen won who are not good all around players compared to lebron and wade but are better scorers. LOL at the geniuses who thinks better all around is more important than scoring. rebounding, defense etc can be upped by effort but scoring cant coz it requires talent/skill. so good luck heat coz youre not winning chips unless lebron and wade becomes as good as kobe, dirk, melo and amare when it comes to scoring. theyre howards in a forward/guards body and i doubt they become good as melo/amare coz they dont have the talent

[jbryan1984]

totally disagree. NY is going to be great, they just need a bench behind them and i think they will have that figured out next season. i like amare and melo together.

[iamgine]

Somethingi ve wondered about your(to me...somewhat crazy) idea that people who do one thing well are automatically role players.


What does that make Dirk?

Not a very good rebounder(fell to 7 a game this year...as a 7 footer playing major minutes). Much improved defender but not someone you would bring in for defensive reasons unless he was replacing like...Brian Cook. Not an above average ball handler. Good passer for his size. Not just a great passer for an NBA player.

All Dirk does that is of note...is score. He shoots jumpers, FTs, and has become a good finisher. But there is nothing else to really talk about. doesnt mean he literally does nothing else. But there is nothing scoring aside...to really make a big deal out of.

Dirk, Gervin, Nique, Amare and so on...all role players by your standards. Yet clearly more effective players than some guys you wouldnt call a role player if being a role player means doing many things.

So what is the point of calling them out at all?
/thread

[Blue&Orange]

I'm sorry but your stats in your post there weren't that signifigant at all.. Like comparing Amare's playmaking to Dirk's when:

a) Dirk is far from a great passer/playmaker
b) Dirk played much worse in the regular season than he did in the playoffs
c) You're using Dirk's current high standing and success to try and make amare look like he's in his class thus propping him up artificailly.

Using blocks to justify defense is also a terrible benchmark.. Amare's positional defense, paint/rim protection, and man defense are all supbar for a power forward. He averaged under 8rpg in a high paced offense where a lot of rebounds were available. You should look at his total rebound percentage which measures how much he gobbles up boards relative to how many opportunities he gets at them. He averaged a very pedestrian and below average 12.7%..

All of these 'sos and so was 3rd in the league in assists at his position' doesn't mean much because there are only around 5 players at each the PF and the SF positions that are even all stars in this league and the players were comparing them to here are supposedly superstars.. so they SHOULD be doing better than those guys across the board given how much more they get to have control of the ball than those guys and given the fact that they are better than them.
I was comparing who to who again? I was justifying what? I was using what to what? Go read again the thread title, go read the one dimensional comments, the role players comments maybe you get it then what was my point. Your interpretation is laughable

And My stats? lol Those aren't my stats, they aren't an "opinion" they are reality.

And since you brought it up, yeah Dirk is much better playmaker and facilitator and whatever, but somehow he have the same assists. What a weird thing hun? And let me put in the moron-stats-mean-nothing-i-watch-games shoes, to imitate the "oh but he is in a fast pace team he get more chances to rebound", "oh but he gets more assists because he have more possessions" comments, and point out that Amare played with scrubs, Dirk played with veteran quality shooters, easy to get assists from and still couldn't get more assists than the one-dimensional Amare, weird hun... how's that for a comparison? See it goes both ways, and yeah yeah i know, stats\reality are for nerds what's important is your opinion.

And Dirk player much worse in the regular season? :facepalm
Is that a fact or is your important opinion because you watch games?
I clearly remember everyone raving Dirks performance during the regular season. And let me use sarcasm to point out how is know to everyone how Amare, unlike Dirk according to you, gives pure 100% during the regular season, they guy wow, he doesn't even shy away from contact at all. You downplaying regular season for Dirk vs Amare makes absolute no sense.

Being 3rd in the league doesn't mean much? :facepalm Let me guess, what is important is your opinion because you watch games, right?

Let me address also the "they SHOULD be doing better than those guys across the board" comment, are those other guys also elite scorers? Or that doesn't matter? Also, you should tell that to Dirk, because in many things he isn't doing better than those guys across the board.

My point\post stands, Melo and Amare are elite scores that are top5\top10 in their position on other facets of the game, this is a IRREFUTABLE FACT, the one dimensional players, role players thing, is a fact for the delusional morons that think their opinion is what matters because they watch games :facepalm

[niko]

People on this board are borderline retarded sometime, the general argument always seems to be something is wrong, and the proof given is that it's not perfect. Yes, Melo/Amare is not a perfect marriage. That doesn't make it a mistake. It's hard to get players of that calliber, much easier to get the role players around them.

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks the Knicks should have kept our roster by committee and not get Melo is an idiot. You can build depth over time with small moves here and there. You cannot get a star like that - it's impossible. That's why you get the star first, build later. And we didn't even sacrifice our financial flexibility too much for 2012. (Note: I know the Nuggets made a good trade, but they had to move Melo. I highly doubt if Melo said he loved it and wanted to stay that he would be moved. In reality, they preferred him more too.)

OP is a retard, and I really wish some people would read the initial argument before jumping in. OP's point is stupid. PERIOD.

[Ikill]

It's funny, because you first ask the question whether they are so redundant or not, and then you proceed to point out in your second paragraph why they are so redundant. Neither of them can facilitate shit. Neither of them play off the ball. They are both pure solitary scorers who create for themselves with the ball and don't do much else.

It's the forward equivalent of teaming up Derrick Rose with Kobe Bryant. Very talented, but you'd much rather pair either of them up with a great front court player.




I love Chris Paul, but you are aware that basketball is played with 1 ball? The whole point of having a guy like Melo is that you don't need Chris Paul to set him up.
now Amare and Melo can't play off ball :facepalm they can both play off the ball both of them are decent passers and both can shoot they seem like an excellent fit much better better than Lebron and Wade. Chris Paul would be really useful in the future when Amare gets older.

[Joey Zaza]

As I read through this thread, it seems like despite the aggrandizing and overstatements about how well/poorly these two players fit, there is alot of common ground:

1. I think we all agree that despite difference of opinion about 'Melo/Stoud's abilities as passers, they are clearly not fascilitators on a team-wide, game-long basis. For the Knicks to get to the next level, they need a fascilitator;

2. I think we all agree that despite difference of opinion about 'Melo/Stoud's abilities as defenders, they are clearly not defensive players. For the Knicks to get to the next level they need defensive help both inside and outside in the starting lineup and bench; and

3. I think we can all agree that the few months they spent together last year is nowhere near enough of a sample size to know how they'll play together on a going forward basis...but obviously there is a difference of opinion as to how they'll ultimately play together.

Unlike the NBA and the PA, we are not that far apart. Where this thread is lacking is some semblance of support of the OP opening salvo that Walsh = IT.

Walsh had a plan, saw it through over his 3 seasons and despite set-backs and struggles and the widely held beleif that you cannot rebuild in NY, he delivered-as promised: 1) young all-stars and 2) flexibility going forward. Its imperfect-as pointed out ad nauseum in this thread- but (despite the failure to get LBJ or draft Jennings) the plan made sense and the team is in substantially better shape now than it was 3 yrs ago.

No one can point to 1) an IT plan 2) that was developed over a few seasons 3) that was seen through completion and 4) ultimately worked to any degree.

[Akrazotile]

:facepalm


:roll:

[Akrazotile]

:facepalm


:lol

[Ballin095]

What about carmelo and stat being a great combination?

[absalom]

:facepalm

:facepalm

But Amare is still good today.

[livinglegend]

Nice bump! Just shows how great some of these rational ISH members are at recognising talent. :applause:

[tontoz]

Struggling for a playoff spot in one of the worst conferences in history even though Melo is having a career year.

Maybe jackson can straighten out this mess but he needs to be able to tell Dolan to STFU.

[Akrazotile]

The prophet :bowdown:

[R.I.P.]

marion turned it up in the finals for sure

Yeah. The only way Amare could defend LeBron is if he went to law school.

[Legends66NBA7]

Good lord, this fairy tale the Knicks fans live in is unbearable. Next season is going end with a first round exit again. Well, maybe they will actually win a game in the playoffs this time. Maybe Anthony will even shoot over 40% this time.

This was actually the most accurate post considering what happened in 2012.


The rest turned out be reasons of injury and circumstances.

[Akrazotile]

:roll: