Better overall career: Dirk Nowitzki or Karl Malone?

[hawkfan]

Better overall career: Dirk Nowitzki or Karl Malone?

[Miserio]

Bad timing. You're saying this in the middle of a Mavs championship when we all have seen one of the greatest clutch post-seasons ever.

[hawkfan]

Bad timing. You're saying this in the middle of a Mavs championship when we all have seen one of the greatest clutch post-seasons ever.

Malone never won a championship.

[Micku]

Malone never won a championship.

He was in Jordan's era as well.

It's a bad timing to talk about it since people are hype with the Mavs win.

[Rake2204]

Malone never won a championship.
Not to delve too terribly deep into this argument but I do not subscribe to the "This guy didn't win a championship" theory. His teams didn't win championships. I think the better thought to ponder would be, "Did Karl Malone do everything in his power to try to lead his team to glory?" And I think the answer is yes.

To average 25 and 11 over about 18 postseasons hints that there wasn't much more this guy could have done to help his team succeed. Surely, you can't just look at the numbers, but they do help tell the story. It also seems, in my opinion, that Malone largely played on "gritty" teams more often than outright talented ones. Malone and Stockton were Malone and Stockton, but a slightly aging Jeff Hornacek, Bryon Russell, Greg Ostertag, Adam Keefe. . .of the two teams Karl helped lead to the Finals (who both lost to Michael Jordan) I can't really blame him for losing. Like I said, they were solid as a unit, but it's not like they lost simply because Karl wasn't great or something of that nature.

I'm really pumped Dirk won a ring. But for me, personally, when comparing how good a player was next to another, ring total doesn't hold as much weight as it does to other people. Karl Malone was going big for a solid 17 years. He was still averaging 20ppg at age 39. That's borderline unheard of. For a quick comparision, Shaquille O'Neal averaged 9ppg at age 38.

So, I'm not saying Karl's better than Dirk. But I also wouldn't just pick Dirk because he's got a ring. Malone's awesome longevity sort of makes me think we should wait to see how Dirk rounds out his career before coming to a conclusion on this one. It's definitely an apt and worthy question in my opinion. Both of these guys are legends.

[DetroitPiston]

Dirk showed up in the finals this year, Malone choked repeatedly in the playoffs*. We remember the greatness but we forget the disasters. He definitely choked. Plus, of course, time heals wounds - we now remember Malone with fondness rather than for being the asshole that he was who was accused of failing to show up when it mattered most.

*Who now remembers how Jordan was in the position to hit that jumper over Russell to win the title? I do - and I recall Malone being involved.

[Micku]

Dirk showed up in the finals this year, Malone choked repeatedly in the playoffs*. We remember the greatness but we forget the disasters. He definitely choked. Plus, of course, time heals wounds - we now remember Malone with fondness rather than for being the asshole that he was who was accused of failing to show up when it mattered most.

*Who now remembers how Jordan was in the position to hit that jumper over Russell to win the title? I do - and I recall Malone being involved.

Dirk was considered to be a choker prior to this year. The Mavs in general were consider to be chokers. Dirk and the Mavs were constantly disappointing in the playoffs for a decade prior to this year.

And Karl Malone did lose to MJ bulls like all the other greats in the 90s. Replace the Mavs of 11 to the Jazz in 98. Have them go against the Bulls. MJ may steal the ball from Dirk and hit another game winner as well.

But it doesn't mean that Dirk isn't a great player or anything like that.

[SCdac]

Man, I feel sorry for fans who have been sticking up for Dirk for so long that the first thoughts that come to mind when they win are "YES, everybody on the internet will think about him in new light now! woohoo"... rather than, "My team that I've been supporting for years finally won, I'm going to party and enjoy this!" ... When the Spurs won, all I could hear car honking outside, screaming, and saw the masses celebrating down town. I hope Dallas does it right. There is so much more to a franchise than one player (nothing against Dirk, or even MJ, Duncan, other greats, etc).

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not to delve too terribly deep into this argument but I do not subscribe to the "This guy didn't win a championship" theory. His team's didn't win championships. I think the better thought to ponder would be, "Did Karl Malone do everything in his power to try to lead his team to glory?" And I think the answer is yes.

To average 25 and 11 over about 18 postseasons hints that there wasn't much more this guy could have done to help his team succeed. Surely, you can't just look at the numbers, but they do help tell the story. It also seems, in my opinion, that Malone largely played on "gritty" teams more often than outright talented ones. Malone and Stockton were Malone and Stockton, but a slightly aging Jeff Hornacek, Bryon Russell, Greg Ostertag, Adam Keefe. . .of the two teams Karl helped lead to the Finals (who both lost to Michael Jordan) I can't really blame him for losing. Like I said, they were solid as a unit, but it's not like they lost simply because Karl wasn't great or something of that nature.

I'm really pumped Dirk won a ring. But for me, personally, when comparing how good a player was next to another, ring total doesn't hold as much weight as it does to other people. Karl Malone was going big for a solid 17 years. He was still averaging 20ppg at age 39. That's borderline unheard of. For a quick comparision, Shaquille O'Neal averaged 9ppg at age 38.

So, I'm not saying Karl's better than Dirk. But I also wouldn't just pick Dirk because he's got a ring. Malone's awesome longevity sort of makes me think we should wait to see how Dirk rounds out his career before coming to a conclusion on this one. It's definitely an apt and worthy question in my opinion. Both of these guys are legends.

Stockton is also overrated which skews some people's opinions of Malone, but with that being said, I'm not sure I'd take Malone to lead my team to a title over Dirk because Dirk didn't have an overwhelming amount of talent around him this year or in 2006.

[JohnnySic]

Still Malone - #2 scorer all time and arguable top 15 of all time. Dirk is closing the gap though.

[kizut1659]

Not to delve too terribly deep into this argument but I do not subscribe to the "This guy didn't win a championship" theory. His team's didn't win championships. I think the better thought to ponder would be, "Did Karl Malone do everything in his power to try to lead his team to glory?" And I think the answer is yes.

To average 25 and 11 over about 18 postseasons hints that there wasn't much more this guy could have done to help his team succeed. Surely, you can't just look at the numbers, but they do help tell the story. It also seems, in my opinion, that Malone largely played on "gritty" teams more often than outright talented ones. Malone and Stockton were Malone and Stockton, but a slightly aging Jeff Hornacek, Bryon Russell, Greg Ostertag, Adam Keefe. . .of the two teams Karl helped lead to the Finals (who both lost to Michael Jordan) I can't really blame him for losing. Like I said, they were solid as a unit, but it's not like they lost simply because Karl wasn't great or something of that nature.

I'm really pumped Dirk won a ring. But for me, personally, when comparing how good a player was next to another, ring total doesn't hold as much weight as it does to other people. Karl Malone was going big for a solid 17 years. He was still averaging 20ppg at age 39. That's borderline unheard of. For a quick comparision, Shaquille O'Neal averaged 9ppg at age 38.

So, I'm not saying Karl's better than Dirk. But I also wouldn't just pick Dirk because he's got a ring. Malone's awesome longevity sort of makes me think we should wait to see how Dirk rounds out his career before coming to a conclusion on this one. It's definitely an apt and worthy question in my opinion. Both of these guys are legends.

I largely agree. I would put them as equal right now, with Dirk's ring counterbalanced by Malone's longevity. I would, however, blame Malone for the losses to the Bulls - the Bulls were ageing too (especially in 98), and if Malone would have played up to par and not come up short at criticial points (missed free throws in game 1 of 97 finals, having a ball stolen by Jordan in game 6 of 98 finals on that last possession etc.) - the Jazz could have won (and should have won in 98.) Given that, if Dirk plays at a high level for couple of years longer, i would put him past Malone.

[taucesays]

http://i.imgur.com/lO9vO.jpg

[kizut1659]

Accoridng to Broussard and Bayless whom I saw this morning Dirk is ranked behind Malone and Barkley. I disagree - i would put him past Barkley now and on par with Malone.

[Disaprine]

http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/images/2/26/Opisafag.jpg

[brain drain]

People need to stop looking at raw numbers, the pace was different then.
Go check the playoff PER numbers for Dirk and Malone.

[taucesays]

Or you could look at it this way:

How efficient would Dirk be if he still had Steve Nash on the team?

[kizut1659]

Dirk was considered to be a choker prior to this year. The Mavs in general were consider to be chokers. Dirk and the Mavs were constantly disappointing in the playoffs for a decade prior to this year.

And Karl Malone did lose to MJ bulls like all the other greats in the 90s. Replace the Mavs of 11 to the Jazz in 98. Have them go against the Bulls. MJ may steal the ball from Dirk and hit another game winner as well.

But it doesn't mean that Dirk isn't a great player or anything like that.

I don't see Dirk missing free throws in a tied game with few seconds left in 97. And the chances of Jordan stealing the ball from Dirk in 98 would be lower - Malone was clearly rattled and chocking.

[brain drain]

Dirk had 4 postseasons with a PER of 26 and above.

Malone had 0.

Dirk's playoff PER average is 24.7
Karl Malone had a PER of 24.7 and above in exactly 2 of his 20 playoff seasons (plus 2 other seasons with 24.6).

Basically, when it counts (playoffs), Dirk's a level above Malone.

[DMAVS41]

It almost fully depends on what you think of Stockton. If you have Stockton as a top 25 or 30 player, then Dirk has definitely had the better career.

Dirk has been the slightly better playoff performer overall and has been far more clutch.

Dirk just did something that only Hakeem, Duncan, and Barry had done before him really.

I tend to rank them very close together because I think Stockton is actually pretty over-rated.

I do give Dirk the slight edge that he was able to to what he just did in the playoffs. Its probably the 2nd or 3rd best playoff run of all time by a superstar player given the circumstances.

[Micku]

I don't see Dirk missing free throws in a tied game with few seconds left in 97. And the chances of Jordan stealing the ball from Dirk in 98 would be lower - Malone was clearly rattled and chocking.

Mav-Heat 2006~ Dirk missed some clutch FTs to close the game out.

Dirk was consider to be choker prior to this year. Dirk was also a 1st seed who lost to a 8th seed. It's not like Dirk is immune to failure at all, but that doesn't mean he isn't a great player.

Same with Karl Malone. Once he got to the Finals, he just lost to Jordan's Bulls. And not many teams could beat Jordan's Bulls.

[Patrick Chewing]

He was in Jordan's era as well.



Dirk is in Kobe's, Lebron's, and DWade's era too

[Streetballer]

Better overall career: Dirk Nowitzki or Karl Malone?

Dirk..Because Karl Played his with whole Career with a Hall of Fame P.G and never wont it..Even when Jordan took a Break for 2 years he had his Chance never did it!!!
FACT!!!!!

[hawkfan]

Dirk played in the Kobe Bryant/Tim Duncan era, and he had no real consistent superstar playing with him this year.

Terry is a good player, but not Hall of Fame.
Kidd is on the back end of his career and not same player he was a few years ago.
Marion is not a superstar.

Great overall team, and Chandler isn't getting enough credit for his worse on defense and rebounding, and changing the mental attitudes towards defense for this team, but Dirk doesn't have a dependable No. 2 guy like Stockton was.

[Rake2204]

Dirk showed up in the finals this year, Malone choked repeatedly in the playoffs*. We remember the greatness but we forget the disasters. He definitely choked. Plus, of course, time heals wounds - we now remember Malone with fondness rather than for being the asshole that he was who was accused of failing to show up when it mattered most.

*Who now remembers how Jordan was in the position to hit that jumper over Russell to win the title? I do - and I recall Malone being involved.
I respect your opinion there, but I feel in that particular instance, that wasn't Malone choking. Instead, I thought it was a terribly heady play by MJ. Sure, maybe Malone should have seen him coming, but I don't view that as a choke. A choke to me would be more along the lines of a player not reaching their normal ability because they're nervous or otherwise offset about the largeness of the moment. In my opinion, in that exact situation, Malone would have been stripped ten out of ten times.

I think there'd be a better case made for Malone being a choker for when he missed his "Mailman don't deliver on Sunday" free throw. Even then, he's a career 75% shooter from the stripe. It wasn't exactly abnormal for him to miss a free throw or two. Further, I do not subscribe to the "he makes them when they count" theory. They always count. In this case, I'd blame Malone's overall deficiency as a free throw shooter (in comparison to Dirk) more than I would his alleged tendency to choke.

I can't believe I'm kind of defending Karl Malone.

[DirtySanchez]

He was in Jordan's era as well.

It's a bad timing to talk about it since people are hype with the Mavs win.

Let's not forget Jordan was out for two years and the Jazz did not step up then.
90's was a weak era.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I tend to rank them very close together because I think Stockton is actually pretty over-rated.

Agreed, Stockton didn't give Malone the second scorer he needed, and while he was a great passer who made Karl better, there have been a good amount of point guards who I'd take over Stockton as players prime vs prime. By 1998, Stockton was only a 29-30 mpg player, even in the playoffs.

[joshwake]

Malone never won a championship.
That is such a tired argument. Winning a title has so many variables involved, people put way to much weight on it in ranking players. Malone was one of the best defenders at his position ever, and Dirk would not be considered anywhere near Malone in terms of defense. The one area where Dirk is significantly better is that he is amazing in the clutch. Malone wilted away in too many big games. Still, Malone is significantly better, although Dirk has some good years left I don't expect to see him play All-Star caliber defense any time soon.

[kizut1659]

Mav-Heat 2006~ Dirk missed some clutch FTs to close the game out.

Dirk was consider to be choker prior to this year. Dirk was also a 1st seed who lost to a 8th seed. It's not like Dirk is immune to failure at all, but that doesn't mean he isn't a great player.

Same with Karl Malone. Once he got to the Finals, he just lost to Jordan's Bulls. And not many teams could beat Jordan's Bulls.

Yes, but Malone never redeemed himself, thats the point. The Jazz were contenders from 1987 to 2001 and he never came through. And while Dirk missed cluth FTs in game 3 in 2006, he made what should have been a game winner in OT in game 5 - Mavs only lost because of BS foul on Wade.

[kizut1659]

Agreed, Stockton didn't give Malone the second scorer he needed, and while he was a great passer who made Karl better, there have been a good amount of point guards who I'd take over Stockton as players prime vs prime. By 1998, Stockton was only a 29-30 mpg player, even in the playoffs.

Stockton was still a 36 mpg in 1997 and played very well against the Bulls (basically winning game 4 for them.) In 1998, Stockton's minutes were reduced but the Bulls were also weaker - no longer having Bison Dele, Rodman going to wrestling shows in the middle of finals, Pippen being injured, and Jprdan being worse than he was in 1997.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Dirk (IMO) has a good 2-3 years left of this type of play and can probably play til he's 38-40 as a role player if he wants to that.

Ask me again when Dirk's career is over. Dirk will surpass 30k points, and by the time his career is done he will easily be in the Top 5-10 in many of the major statistical categories including the playoff statistical categories.

[Rake2204]

Let's not forget Jordan was out for two years and the Jazz did not step up then.
90's was a weak era.
As they lost to the eventual champions in each of those years, I'm not sure I could be too hard on Utah for that one. That just kind of tells me that Utah was between the 2nd and 4th best team that year. Not being able to overcome a team featuring Michael Jordan or Beast-Mode Hakeem Olajuwon doesn't seem to seal the deal to me that a player or team wasn't still pretty great themselves. Utah stepped up in '94 and '95, just not on Hakeem and company's level.

[Micku]

Let's not forget Jordan was out for two years and the Jazz did not step up then.
90's was a weak era.

And what stopped Dirk for stepping it up for the past decade? A whole bunch of teams. He couldn't get it over the hump just like Karl Malone, until now that is.

You could say that Karl Malone had Stockton, and it was a disappointing run. But you could say the same about Barkley and Kevin Johnson I guess.

[creepingdeath]

I respect your opinion there, but I feel in that particular instance, that wasn't Malone choking. Instead, I thought it was a terribly heady play by MJ. Sure, maybe Malone should have seen him coming, but I don't view that as a choke. A choke to me would be more along the lines of a player not reaching their normal ability because they're nervous or otherwise offset about the largeness of the moment. In my opinion, in that exact situation, Malone would have been stripped ten out of ten times.

I think there'd be a better case made for Malone being a choker for when he missed his "Mailman don't deliver on Sunday" free throw. Even then, he's a career 75% shooter from the stripe. It wasn't exactly abnormal for him to miss a free throw or two. Further, I do not subscribe to the "he makes them when they count" theory. They always count. In this case, I'd blame Malone's overall deficiency as a free throw shooter (in comparison to Dirk) more than I would his alleged tendency to choke.

I can't believe I'm kind of defending Karl Malone.
The Jordan card is overplayed. Malone lost twice to MJ, which would be excusable, but he failed against other teams, too.
And you just cannot turn the ball over being up 1 in an elimination game with 37 seconds to go. Or shoot 7-15 from the charity stripe in another elimination game.

I'd pick Dirk, but I'm clearly biased and I accept differing opinions. What we all can agree on, though, is that Malone was a pathetic piece of sh*t as a person, unlike Dirk.

[kizut1659]

And what stopped Dirk for stepping it up for the past decade? A whole bunch of teams. He couldn't get it over the hump just like Karl Malone, until now that is.

You could say that Karl Malone had Stockton, and it was a disappointing run. But you could say the same about Barkley and Kevin Johnson I guess.

You could and should say it about Barkley, which is why he is below both Dirk and Malone.

[joshwake]

yea Karl had Stockton, but dirk had a ridiculous supporting cast. The Mavs are stacked with excellent role players. Other than Hornaceck, Utah had Bryon Russel and Greg Ostertag.

Once again ISH and NBA fans in general are completely ignoring defense.

[Patrick Chewing]

Dirk (IMO) has a good 2-3 years left of this type of play and can probably play til he's 38-40 as a role player if he wants to that.

Ask me again when Dirk's career is over. Dirk will surpass 30k points, and by the time his career is done he will easily be in the Top 5-10 in many of the major statistical categories including the playoff statistical categories.

Seriously, Dirk isn't done yet. His style of play enables him to last longer than most athletes on the court.

He is winning in the midst of so many great players around him on other teams that you have to give him his due respect. He beat Kobe, he beat Durant, he beat Wade, and he beat LeBron. He will top 10 when it's all said and done.

[kizut1659]

yea Karl had Stockton, but dirk had a ridiculous supporting cast. The Mavs are stacked with excellent role players. Other than Hornaceck, Utah had Bryon Russel and Greg Ostertag.

Once again ISH and NBA fans in general are completely ignoring defense.

Who did Bulls have in 98 besides injured Pippen, Kukoc, and Rodman who was so much of a distraction by that point that he was pulled out of the starting lineup?

[kizut1659]

Seriously, Dirk isn't done yet. His style of play enables him to last longer than most athletes on the court.

He is winning in the midst of so many great players around him on other teams that you have to give him his due respect. He beat Kobe, he beat Durant, he beat Wade, and he beat LeBron. He will top 10 when it's all said and done.

Not going to happen unless he wins at least 2 more championships, which is highly highly unlikely. He is top 20 though now.

[D.J.]

Right now, it's still Malone. He had insane longevity, matched only by Kareem.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Stockton was still a 36 mpg in 1997 and played very well against the Bulls (basically winning game 4 for them.) In 1998, Stockton's minutes were reduced but the Bulls were also weaker - no longer having Bison Dele, Rodman going to wrestling shows in the middle of finals, Pippen being injured, and Jprdan being worse than he was in 1997.

Yeah, but even in his prime(which he was past or at the very end of by 1997), Stockton was never a true franchise player or MVP candidate so malone having Stockton is always overstated.

[Rake2204]

The Jordan card is overplayed. Malone lost twice to MJ, which would be excusable, but he failed against other teams, too.
And you just cannot turn the ball over being up 1 in an elimination game with 37 seconds to go. Or shoot 7-15 from the charity stripe in another elimination game.

I'd pick Dirk, but I'm clearly biased and I accept differing opinions. What we all can agree on, though, is that Malone was a pathetic piece of sh*t as a person, unlike Dirk.
This is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs but I'll say it anyway. . .

I agree that late turnovers and poor free throw shooting can't happen. What I was saying, was that in those particular instances I mentioned (the Jordan steal and the late free throw misses), I did not believe that was Malone choking. Rather, I just thought they were bad plays that would have happened regardless. Malone's free throw shooting is not in the same galaxy as Dirk's. And it's not as if Malone fumbled the rock off his own feet, Jordan snuck behind and took it.

So, it is my feeling that each of those plays could be chalked up as overall deficiencies moreso than Malone suddenly choking in the clutch. Either way, I think that helps the Nowitzki case. It seems I'm defending Malone and at the same time not.

[kizut1659]

Yeah, but even in his prime(which he was past or at the very end of by 1997), Stockton was never a true franchise player or MVP candidate so malone having Stockton is always overstated.

I agree to a certain extent, but He was still All-Nba and an All-Star. Also, an importance of having a great passer who will consistently gets you the ball cannot be underestimated. Frankly, I think part of the reason Dallas did not win in 2006 was because they didn't have a true point guard and Nowitski did not get the ball consistently and/or in the right places. Unlike Dirk, Malone always had that luxury.

[creepingdeath]

This is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs but I'll say it anyway. . .

I agree that late turnovers and poor free throw shooting can't happen. What I was saying, was that in those particular instances I mentioned (the Jordan steal and the late free throw misses), I did not believe that was Malone choking. Rather, I just thought they were bad plays that would have happened regardless. Malone's free throw shooting is not in the same galaxy as Dirk's. And it's not as if Malone fumbled the rock off his own feet, Jordan snuck behind and took it.

So, it is my feeling that each of those plays could be chalked up as overall deficiences moreso than Malone suddenly choking in the clutch. Either way, I think that helps the Nowitzki case. It seems I'm defending Malone and at the same time not.
I see your point. Had Dirk not willed his team to the finals - I think that alone was enough to straighten out most of the stereotypes, the ring was just the big fat icing on the cake - he would still (unfairly) be labeled a choker. Nowitzki obviously has his own share of playoff failures, but they (meaning 1.5 series) always dominated the media and the fan's public image of him, undeservingly so. Malone suffers from the same, partly distorted reputation. Winning a championship is such a fragile thing... so many things have to fall into place, so many tiny aspects can go wrong. It might not be fair to judge players by rings, and, I admit, Dirk winning one might have changed my perception. But to evaluate someone's impact on the game, championships have to play a certain role when judging and comparing all-time greats. Sure, we have to look at the context. I mean, Dirk had been criticized during the Nuggets series 2 years ago, when he averaged 34/12/4.. can you believe that? Or look at Dwight.. some people claim he's not a star since that Hawk series, but fail to look how the losses came to be.

Anyway.. I can't feel bad for Malone, though. He is a despicable human being.

[GOBB]

Dirk career isnt even over. How can I even decide? :confusedshrug:

[creepingdeath]

Dirk career isnt even over. How can I even decide? :confusedshrug:
Come on, we both know you'd take Kevin Love over him. :lol

[SCdac]

This was Jason Kidd's fourth post-season with the Mavs, and Steve Nash lead the Mavs handedly in assists in the playoffs when with them. Dirk has had capable point guards, albeit at different stages of their careers. Devin Harris in the 2006 semi western conference Finals had some huge games and outplayed Tony Parker who was having one of the best seasons of his career and made the AS game for the first time.

[Nero Tulip]

1) Jordan's era was relatively weak, especially in the West.

2) Malone wasn't even the best player in his team (arguably)

3) He never won

[SCdac]

1) Jordan's era was relatively weak, especially in the West.

2) Malone wasn't even the best player in his team (arguably)

3) He never won

Just curious, how do you measure how weak the era is?

and how good do you think these teams really are?

2007 Warriors (no all-stars, second round exit team)

2008 Hornets (lead by 3rd year Paul, second round exit team)

2009 Nuggets (lead by Melo, first round exit team the season after)

would these be championship calibre teams in the 1990's?

[kizut1659]

This was Jason Kidd's fourth post-season with the Mavs, and Steve Nash lead the Mavs handedly in assists in the playoffs when with them. Dirk has had capable point guards, albeit at different stages of their careers. Devin Harris in the 2006 semi western conference Finals had some huge games and outplayed Tony Parker who was having one of the best seasons of his career and made the AS game for the first time.

In 2006 post-season Devon Harris averaged 2.2 assists in 24 minutes. Dallas did not have a good point guard or ball distributor - period.

[97 bulls]

I don't think its fair to try to compare the two. On malones side, he's had a complete and finished career. Which isn't fair to dirk. On dirks side, he's the flavor of the month. Which is naturally gonna hinder or cloud the comparison and skew it towards dirk.

And I just don't get some of you people. How is stockton overrated? He's the all-time leader in assists, and steals. Regarded as a top 3 pg, had a wet jumper, and was a damn good defender. And he was hella efficient. Not to mention he rarely turned the ball over. Wtf?

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Who did Bulls have in 98 besides injured Pippen, Kukoc, and Rodman who was so much of a distraction by that point that he was pulled out of the starting lineup?
Ron Harper

[kizut1659]

Ron Harper

Not any better than Bryon Russel or Shannon Anderson.

[97 bulls]

Not any better than Bryon Russel or Shannon Anderson.
Id take harper over both

[SCdac]

In 2006 post-season Devon Harris averaged 2.2 assists in 24 minutes. Dallas did not have a good point guard or ball distributor - period.

Maybe not a great ball distributor, but that's not to say he wasn't a good point guard though (think about it, he had equal trade value to Jason Kidd). Tony Parker only averaged 4.3 assists in the 2005 run, and less than that in the 2003 run, and he's similar to the kind of player Harris is. Harris was more of a bench player in 2006, but no doubt his play and abilities helped the Mavs go far in 2006, particularly in beating the 63-win Spurs. Jason Williams, the Heat starting PG, only averaged 3.9 APG and Payton averaged less than 2 per game in that season.

[Duncan21formvp]

Id take harper over both
Not Bulls Harper. Cleveland Harper or even Clippers Harper yes.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

The Jordan card is overplayed. Malone lost twice to MJ, which would be excusable, but he failed against other teams, too.
And you just cannot turn the ball over being up 1 in an elimination game with 37 seconds to go. Or shoot 7-15 from the charity stripe in another elimination game.

I'd pick Dirk, but I'm clearly biased and I accept differing opinions. What we all can agree on, though, is that Malone was a pathetic piece of sh*t as a person, unlike Dirk.
to say the least but you must agree that xcept Stockton he didn't have much of support

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Not any better than Bryon Russel or Shannon Anderson.
he was much better then those guys in every segment of the game

[ThaSwagg3r]

I find it pretty funny how this SCdac guy posts in every Dirk thread just to discredit him. :oldlol: I guess he can't get over the fact that Tim Duncan and the Spurs are washed up and useless now. So instead he has to make himself feel better by discrediting Dirk and the Mavericks all day.

[97 bulls]

to say the least but you must agree that xcept Stockton he didn't have much of support
I wouldn't say that. Russel was a bruce bowen type, ostertag was good defensively, hornacek was good. Eisley was a solid backup pg, shandon anderson was solid.

[97 bulls]

Not Bulls Harper. Cleveland Harper or even Clippers Harper yes.
Say what? Get outta here with that

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

I wouldn't say that. Russel was a bruce bowen type, ostertag was good defensively, hornacek was good. Eisley was a solid backup pg, shandon anderson was solid.
man,you would say anything to boost up Bulls.

[SCdac]

I find it pretty funny how this SCdac guy posts in every Dirk thread just to discredit him. :oldlol: I guess he can't get over the fact that Tim Duncan and the Spurs are washed up and useless now. So instead he has to make himself feel better by discrediting Dirk and the Mavericks all day.

Hey man it's my day off im allowed to sit around and do whatever I want... nobody I know wants to talk basketball right now and my chick is like "whatever" she don't want to hear any of this shit.. and I'm hardly posting in "every thread" ... I'm only posting relevant information along with my opinion... Sorry I watched the games and have an opinion. Every team that makes it to the Finals is going to have the necessary pieces, whether it's the 2006 Mavs, or the 2000 Pacers, or whatever team.

[97 bulls]

man,you would say anything to boost up Bulls.
None of these guys played for the bulls

[kizut1659]

Maybe not a great ball distributor, but that's not to say he wasn't a good point guard though (think about it, he had equal trade value to Jason Kidd). Tony Parker only averaged 4.3 assists in the 2005 run, and less than that in the 2003 run, and he's similar to the kind of player Harris is. Harris was more of a bench player in 2006, but no doubt his play and abilities helped the Mavs go far in 2006, particularly in beating the 63-win Spurs. Jason Williams, the Heat starting PG, only averaged 3.9 APG and Payton averaged less than 2 per game in that season.

But thats the point - you typically need a good distributor. Heat did not need a good point guard to get the ball to Wade, since Wade typically got the ball on every posession and then distributed it as he saw fit. Also, J Williams did average 4.7 assists in 2006 finals. Dallas was different - Nowitzki did not get the ball unless someone passes it to him. By 2008 btw, D Harris became a significiantly better passer, and was still traded for 34-year old Kidd.

I agree about the Spurs not having one in 2003. In 2005, Parker and Ginobli combined distributed the ball well enough.

[creepingdeath]

to say the least but you must agree that xcept Stockton he didn't have much of support
Hornacek, Russel? Plus a couple of very nice glue guys and role players. Not saying they were damn stacked..

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

None of these guys played for the bulls
don't be a smart-ass. Saying Russel,Anderson and Ostertag are good is just another way to say that the Bulls had 'a epic triumph ' against old 2 part team

[SCdac]

But thats the point - you typically need a good distributor. Heat did not need a good point guard to get the ball to Wade, since Wade typically got the ball on every posession and then distributed it as he saw fit. Also, J Williams did average 4.7 assists in 2006 finals. Dallas was different - Nowitzki did not get the ball unless someone passes it to him. By 2008 btw, D Harris became a significiantly better passer, and was still traded for 34-year old Kidd.

I agree about the Spurs not having one in 2003. In 2005, Parker and Ginobli combined distributed the ball well enough.

I think a part of it was Avery Johnson, I know it actually. Jason Kidd even criticized Avery upon the time of his firing, saying he sort of "held him back" as far as being a distributor and on the break. Devin Harris sort of fell out of Johnson's favor, and it's no surprise that with the Nets Harris jumped to a career high 6.5 APG. Johnson's style of coaching was real rigid and controlling. None the less, per-36 minutes Harris averaged 5 APG with the Mavs his first few seasons which indicates his point guard skills were never below par really. I know what you're saying about Dirk needing a better setup man, and I agree to an extent (he had Nash earlier to no avail), but I think Harris' slashing served a purpose too and helped them "be what they were".

[kizut1659]

Hornacek, Russel? Plus a couple of very nice glue guys and role players. Not saying they were damn stacked..

NEITHER team was stacked in 98. Rock Harper btw shot 36% and averaged 5-4-3 in the finals. My point is that Utah was by no mean an underdog - most people predicted it to win.

[kizut1659]

I think a part of it was Avery Johnson, I know it actually. Jason Kidd even criticized Avery upon the time of his firing, saying he sort of "held him back" as far as being a distributor and on the break. Devin Harris sort of fell out of Johnson's favor, and it's no surprise that with the Nets Harris jumped to a career high 6.5 APG. Johnson's style of coaching was real rigid and controlling. None the less, per-36 minutes Harris averaged 5 APG with the Mavs his first few seasons which indicates his point guard skills were never below par really. I know what you're saying about Dirk needing a better setup man, and I agree to an extent (he had Nash earlier to no avail), but I think Harris' slashing served a purpose too and helped them "be what they were".

They were in 2006 - 2.2 assists in 24 minutes. He got better, even though he never became the passer Kid or Stockton are.

[1Time4YourMind]

Mid 90s Jazz when they made the conference semi-finals/finals repeatedly is better than Late 90s Jazz that made the Finals IMO. Why? because they had the same core from 1994/95 onwards, of Stock/Malone/Russell/Hornacek/Ostertag, except younger. the only reason they made the FInals was

A) dilution
B) no other great west teams

Their biggest opponents in the west were a semi-washed up big 3 of Hakeem/Drex/Barkley and a combustible, immature Lakers team of young Kobe, young Shaq, and a Nick van exel that constantly feuded with coach Harris. Only Eddie jones I felt was the most mature out of those 4. In contrast to the early/mid 90s, which with Hakeem in his prime, those Portland teams, Barkley + Suns, Spurs, and Payton/Kemp Sonics? You get the picture.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Mid 90s Jazz when they made the conference semi-finals/finals repeatedly is better than Late 90s Jazz that made the Finals IMO. Why? because they had the same core from 1994/95 onwards, of Stock/Malone/Russell/Hornacek/Ostertag, except younger. the only reason they made the FInals was

A) dilution
B) no other great west teams

Their biggest opponents in the west were a semi-washed up big 3 of Hakeem/Drex/Barkley and a combustible, immature Lakers team of young Kobe, young Shaq, and a Nick van exel that constantly feuded with coach Harris. Only Eddie jones I felt was the most mature out of those 4. In contrast to the early/mid 90s, which with Hakeem in his prime, those Portland teams, Barkley + Suns, Spurs, and Payton/Kemp Sonics? You get the picture.
+1

[creepingdeath]

NEITHER team was stacked in 98. Rock Harper btw shot 36% and averaged 5-4-3 in the finals. My point is that Utah was by no mean an underdog - most people predicted it to win.
Oh, I absolutely agree. '98 was a retirement home series and Utah had a good chance to win it.

[SCdac]

They were in 2006 - 2.2 assists in 24 minutes. He got better, even though he never became the passer Kid or Stockton are.

And he put up back-to-back 20 point games to help pin down the Spurs 2-1. Like I said, he was a good point guard, with more of a bench role at that time and kind of green, but always had talent. Not elite level talent, but certainly enough to become a valuable commodity. Also, defensively he adequate and got his hands on steals.

[kizut1659]

Mid 90s Jazz when they made the conference semi-finals/finals repeatedly is better than Late 90s Jazz that made the Finals IMO. Why? because they had the same core from 1994/95 onwards, of Stock/Malone/Russell/Hornacek/Ostertag, except younger. the only reason they made the FInals was

A) dilution
B) no other great west teams

Their biggest opponents in the west were a semi-washed up big 3 of Hakeem/Drex/Barkley and a combustible, immature Lakers team of young Kobe, young Shaq, and a Nick van exel that constantly feuded with coach Harris. Only Eddie jones I felt was the most mature out of those 4. In contrast to the early/mid 90s, which with Hakeem in his prime, those Portland teams, Barkley + Suns, Spurs, and Payton/Kemp Sonics? You get the picture.

Agreed, same for the Bulls though - they were worse in late 90s than early 90s but the league was more diluted.

[kizut1659]

And he put up back-to-back 20 point games to help pin down the Spurs 2-1. Like I said, he was a good point guard, with more of a bench role at that time and kind of green, but always had talent. Not elite level talent, but certainly enough to become a valuable commodity. Also, defensively he adequate and got his hands on steals.

You are mixing up being streaky and a valuable scoring option with being a good point guard who distributes the ball.

[kizut1659]

Oh, I absolutely agree. '98 was a retirement home series and Utah had a good chance to win it.

Haha couldn't have said it better myself.

[97 bulls]

don't be a smart-ass.By saying Russel,Anderson and Ostertag are good is just another way to say that the Bulls had 'a epic triumph ' against old 2 part team
Say what? Im saying the jazz weren't a bad team. That's all. The only reason the second championship was close was cuz the bulls were injured. But they were a good team that got by on scrappy play and grit. Lead by players that were arguably top 3 at their respective positions in malone and stockton the top 5 . And an alltime great coach in sloan

[Harison]

With ring Dirk already has a slightly better career, but inferior as a player to Malone.

[Crown&Coke]

Malone is #2 scoring all time, ALL TIME

Widely considered the #2 PF of all time, ALL TIME

[SCdac]

You are mixing up being streaky and a valuable scoring option with being a good point guard who distributes the ball.

I think you're generally overrating the need to have a great distributor (vs. a great PG in general), but you know what, that's probably a different topic altogether. Like I said, Jason Kidd was recently a part of 3 early Mavs exits and Nash has been a part of few early Mavs exits as well. They made it to the Finals the first time with Harris coming off the bench/starting against the Spurs and Sun, and Jason Terry starting at PG for many games. Look at how much JJ Barea's scoring and Terry not shooting himself out of games (like he may have done in the past) has helped.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Say what? Im saying the jazz weren't a bad team. That's all. The only reason the second championship was close was cuz the bulls were injured. But they were a good team that got by on scrappy play and grit. Lead by players that were arguably top 3 at their respective positions in malone and stockton the top 5 . And an alltime great coach in sloan
Toni Kukoc had more talent than Foster,Ostertag,Russel and Anderson combined

[Kyle_korver]

Better overall career: Dirk Nowitzki or Karl Malone?
Dirk by far .. I hate the Jordan era excuse cause dirk survive the lakers n spurs era .. And the great Karl Malone tried to hop on the 3 time NBA champ lakers for a ring n still failed .. Dirk >>>>>>> Malone hands down

[DCL]

my only thing against the mailman is that like half his points came from the pick and roll. it was an effective pick and roll, but it relied too much on a good partner (stockton). i always thought malone's career was kinda sugarcoated. it was ridiculous that he stole that mvp from jordan.

[97 bulls]

Toni Kukoc had more talent than Foster,Ostertag,Russel and Anderson combined
Hey I agree the bulls were the superior team. But to say karl malone didn't have help is really stretching it. They didn't have alot of offensive firepower, but they did have a strong defense and like I said earlier were gritty and tough.

[kizut1659]

Hornacek was better than Kukoc.

[Ne 1]

Dirk has the better career. He's a champion, Malone isn't. They both have 1 league MVP (I don't recognize the MVP from the lock-out shortened season). And very few people would argue with Dirk's '07 MVP, but most people thought that the '97 MVP should have went to Jordan.

And please spare me this Malone didn't have an equal opportunity to win crap. He played in the league for 18 years and went 11 years before he even made it out of the West. He choked in both Finals that he played in. Him and Jordan played in separate conferences so you can't credit the Bulls for Malone only getting to the Finals 2 times in 18 years. Even so Malone played in the NBA 9 different years without Jordan and still never won anything.

Those Jazz teams constantly folded under pressure. They would have never won a title regardless of whether or not the Bulls stood in their way. More 90s hype for an undeserving team.

I would also take prime Dirk over Malone.

[kizut1659]

I think you're generally overrating the need to have a great distributor (vs. a great PG in general), but you know what, that's probably a different topic altogether. Like I said, Jason Kidd was recently a part of 3 early Mavs exits and Nash has been a part of few early Mavs exits as well. They made it to the Finals the first time with Harris coming off the bench/starting against the Spurs and Sun, and Jason Terry starting at PG for many games. Look at how much JJ Barea's scoring and Terry not shooting himself out of games (like he may have done in the past) has helped.

I agree that its not essential to have a good distributor but it helps you know what I mean. All I was saying is that the Mavs NOT having a good distributor hurt them in 2006 finals - i remember watching them and being frustrated at their lack of ball movement and Dirk often being forgotten.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Hornacek was better than Kukoc.
don't smoke crack,shit will mess you up

[Nero Tulip]

Just curious, how do you measure how weak the era is?

and how good do you think these teams really are?

2007 Warriors (no all-stars, second round exit team)

2008 Hornets (lead by 3rd year Paul, second round exit team)

2009 Nuggets (lead by Melo, first round exit team the season after)

would these be championship calibre teams in the 1990's?

What do you think your point is? Say what you want about Dallas' losses (some of them were ugly indeed), they did also eliminate some damn good teams.

I could be wrong but I can't remember even one playoff series that Utah won against a really good opponent.

[Nero Tulip]

Hornacek was better than Kukoc.

:facepalm

[97 bulls]

What do you think your point is? Say what you want about Dallas' losses (some of them were ugly indeed), they did also eliminate some damn good teams.

I could be wrong but I can't remember even one playoff series that Utah won against a really good opponent.
How bout the lakers? With shaq, van exel, jones, campbel, etc. Or the rockets with olajuwan, drexler and barkley? They beat some pretty good teams

[97 bulls]

Hornacek was better than Kukoc.
I strongly disagree

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

What do you think your point is? Say what you want about Dallas' losses (some of them were ugly indeed), they did also eliminate some damn good teams.

I could be wrong but I can't remember even one playoff series that Utah won against a really good opponent.
'96/'97 Lakers were good
'97/'98 Spurs also
not sure about 'really good'

[-playmaker-]

Dirk and it isn't even close, I am in my 30s and I have seen Malone's whole career...if the Mavs had Malone rather than Dirk I would slit my throat

stop looking at numbers...they aren't everything...Dirk is just better

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Dirk and it isn't even close, I am in my 30s and I have seen Malone's whole career...if the Mavs had Malone rather than Dirk I would slit my throat

stop looking at numbers...they aren't everything...Dirk is just better
Right
about now ,you would take Cardinal over Malone

[97 bulls]

Right
about now ,you would take Cardinal over Malone
Lol.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

You know what's cool?

Look at this video and can you really believe that Dirk is even "challenging" Malone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpJCQPLDvtQ

Looking at that video, it is impressive at how far Dirk has come to be on the same platform as every PF not named Duncan.

[the_wise_one]

Dirk = GOAT PF.

[Micku]

Well, Dirk won a ring and did something that Malone has never done even with Stockton on his team.

But...it's not like Dirk is free from failure or anything. Dirk was always consider a choker and had very disappointing playoff runs despite this year. The only difference is that Dirk won against Wade, LBJ, and Bosh and Malone lost to Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman. The 90s Bulls basically ruled and maybe one of the greatest team ever assemble, so meh.



You could and should say it about Barkley, which is why he is below both Dirk and Malone.

I don't think he is better than Barkley. Greater maybe since he had a great playoff run this year, but not better. Like I think Dirk could be greater than David Robinson, but David Robinson was better than Dirk in his prime. And you could debate about whatever Dirk is better than Patrick Ewing too, which I think Barkley was better than. But it's hard to rank since this is right after the Mavs won a championship and everything.

You could probably have a better discussion later. But I don't think Dirk is necessary better than Malone or Barkley. But his career is better because he not only did he won MVP like those guys did, but he won a championship! To add spice to the cream, he beat Wade and LeBron James, and basically avenge the Mavs against the Heat and destroy the tainted 2006 away.

[Toizumi]

Up until this year, I'd take Malone's career over Nowitzki's, simply because had more playoff succes over the years (3 finals, some good runs)...
but Dirk just won a title (as the 1st option on his team) and a finals MVP.
Malone went to the Lakers in the twilight of his career to win a title. It was the missing piece of his career and this was also the case for Nowitzki. However, Nowitzki got that title, playing like he's still in his prime (and even at his age, he is), playing like the best player in the world. Winning changes everything, especially when you play like Dirk did. Pretty sure that Malone would love to have had the succes Dirk has now, winning a ring and FMVP.

Apart from the title, their careers are pretty even... Nowitzki won an MVP, Malone won 2.. and both have been superstars pretty much their whole careers and played on All Star teams etc.

Dirk's career > Malone's career for the simple fact that Dirk went all the way, as the premier player on his team. I'm not talking peak play, or who was the better player.. Not getting into that right now. Just talking career achievements.

[atljonesbro]

Up untill this year, I'd take Malone's career over Nowitzki's, simply because had more playoff succes over the years (3 finals, some good runs)...
but Dirk just won a title (as the 1st option on his team) and a finals MVP.
Malone went to the Lakers in the twilight of his career to win a title. It was the missing piece of his career and this was also the case for Nowitzki. However, Nowitzki got that title, playing like he's still in his prime (and even at his age, he is), playing like the best player in the world. Winning changes everything, especially when you play like Dirk did. Pretty sure that Malone would love to have had the succes Dirk has now, winning a ring and FMVP.

Apart from the title, their careers are pretty even... Nowitzki won an MVP, Malone won 2.. and both have been superstars pretty much their whole careers and played on All Star teams etc.

Dirk's career > Malone's career for the simple fact that Dirk went all the way, as the premier player on his team. I'm not talking peak play, or who was the better player.. Not getting into that right now. Just talking career achievements.
LOLWUT. You can have 20 finals appearances and never win a ring and still not be better than winning 1 championship. More playoff success my as.s, he never won a championship, and Dirk did. Dirk has had more playoff success.

[Toizumi]

LOLWUT. You can have 20 finals appearances and never win a ring and still not be better than winning 1 championship. More playoff success my as.s, he never won a championship, and Dirk did. Dirk has had more playoff success.

Are you really this dumb? :facepalm
My post starts like this: "UP UNTIL THIS YEAR."
also, read the rest of my post

[Round Mound]

Barkley > Malone > Dirk

I`ve watched all of them and 1985-1995 Barkley was just a monster

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

1985-1993

[Miserio]

Barkley > Malone > Dirk

I`ve watched all of them and 1985-1995 Barkley was just a monster
He couldn't play defense. Period. PERIOD.

[DixieNourmous]

Dirk showed up in the finals this year, Malone choked repeatedly in the playoffs*. We remember the greatness but we forget the disasters. He definitely choked. Plus, of course, time heals wounds - we now remember Malone with fondness rather than for being the asshole that he was who was accused of failing to show up when it mattered most.

*Who now remembers how Jordan was in the position to hit that jumper over Russell to win the title? I do - and I recall Malone being involved.

Print your post out and show it to your momma so she can see what a dumazz she raised :lol

Malone played in the playoffs every year he was in the NBA (18) to the age of 40. Retired with 36928 points (2nd to Kareem)
He averaged 24.7 points a game, 10.7 rebounds, 2.4 assists

Dirk played very well, great without the game 6 poor shooting.

Dirk averaged 25.9 points, 10.4 rebounds, 2.6 assists

Very similar in stats, a world different on the court.

Dirks can shoot fall aways, rare for big men. Malone had a mid range and was devastating in the paint.

Two great players, Ill take Malone for career. 36928 points :cheers:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html


I bet you never saw him play. :facepalm

[Smoke117]

Hornacek was better than Kukoc.

No he wasn't better by this time in his career but all these fools accosting you for saying that are idiots. Kukoc was better but not by much. Hornacek was always high efficiency. a good passer, and frankly still a better defensive player on those two bum knees of his. People love over glorifying Kukoc.

[Round Mound]

He couldn't play defense. Period. PERIOD.

Is Dirk Great Defensively? Naaaa

Charles finished 7th in Defensive Rating in 1985-86

Barkley combined for both Blocks and Steals early in his career.

Offensively he was better than ANY PF mentioned. He shot few and scored at few shots taken. Unstoppable in Shooting/Making/Missing where he is Top 4 All Time

[dallaslonghorn]

Before we start comparing careers, we should probably wait until Dirk's is over. He's only 32. He's not getting any shorter and his jumper isn't getting any worse.

[Teanett]

Dirks can shoot fall aways, rare for big men. Malone had a mid range and was devastating in the paint.



when was malone good in the paint?
young malone was killer in transition and later added the midrange game.
he never had a post game, a hook shot or the like. mostly all his points came from p'n'r, facing up 10 feet and out, in transition or the stripe.
dirk has a better postgame than malone.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

No he wasn't better by this time in his career but all these fools accosting you for saying that are idiots. Kukoc was better but not by much. Hornacek was always high efficiency. a good passer, and frankly still a better defensive player on those two bum knees of his. People love over glorifying Kukoc.
People who actually watched Kukoc and Hornacek know on how many levels your statement fails