Bayless- "Pippen wouldnt be a top 50 player without Jordan"

[Dizzle-2k7]

:facepalm

I love this dudes rants on the Heat/Lebron, but he is so wrong about the great Scottie Pippen.... #33 took the Bulls to 50+ wins without Jordan.. even better, they didnt even attempt to replace Jordan with some mid-tier player. They took the greatest player of all time off the team, and Scottie still took them deep and almost all the way if not for a once-in-a-lifetime 4 pt play.

What if NY never gets bailed out and Scottie wins a ring?.. Do people look at MJ a little differently?

Scotte - Legend with or without Jordan, though Jordan definetly helped...and vice versa.

http://i28.tinypic.com/23tlf00.jpg

[BlackJoker23]

http://i.imgur.com/kZWQX.jpg

[Dizzle-2k7]

http://i.imgur.com/kZWQX.jpg


:oldlol:

[bingo123]

This just fits his angeda. You know Pippen is nothing without Jordan, Wade is Heats Jordan so LeBron is Pippen (who isnt top 50 player). So.... in few years LeBron is not top 20 or 30 player......

[ThaSwagg3r]

He is technically right. Jordan pretty much maximized all of his potential. If Pippen had still maximized his potential, I would say he would still be in the top 50 though. Jordan just had a large part to do with it. I don't think being Jordan's sidekick is what made him a top 50 though, if that is what Skip is insisting.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

he played MVPously that season

[GOBB]

If you're going to argue Pippen would be a top 50 player without MJ? You have to eliminate the fact he led the Bulls minus MJ. Why? Many feel MJ was helpful in Pippens development as a player. The work ethic, the approach, the challenges in practice or the vocal words os MJ in your ear. I think Pippen was a talented player coming out of college but we've seen many talented players not succeed as well as we thought they could. So I guess you could say he helped make Pippens transition to the NBA much smoother than had he gone to a bad team and tried to lead his way. Would Pippen have the same determination, work ethic, approach to the game or would he try to live off his talent until he realized there was more to the game than that?

I think thats what people contribute to MJ when it comes to Pippen. Pippen might have been another talented player that "could have been...". So perhaps MJ helped untap Pippen potential just by being a fierce competitor who challenged his teammates daily and expected perfection. Gave Pippen motivation to succeed because he was now set out to prove himself. Just a way to look at it. Just throwing it out there.

That said I think Pippen could have been one of the top 50 players of all time had he not played with MJ to start his career.

But to give Skip credit and I really dont think much of the guy (I can do his job). He isnt offbase with his comment.

[Dizzle-2k7]

He is technically right. Jordan pretty much maximized all of his potential. If Pippen had still maximized his potential, I would say he would still be in the top 50 though. Jordan just had a large part to do with it. I don't think being Jordan's sidekick is what made him a top 50 though, if that is what Skip is insisting.


Whos to say Pippen didnt maximize Jordan's potential? It goes both ways brah.

[Skywalker]

I agree. Pippen is just another Danny Granger.

[Crown&Coke]

Pippen never had any confidence in his abilities until he started learning how to work from MJ and Phil started using him in everywhich way imaginable.

But Pip still would have eventually figured it out, it just would have taken him a little longer

[wang4three]

Skip wouldn't be on TV if he didn't make comments like this.

[Dizzle-2k7]

I agree. Pippen is just another Danny Granger.


:oldlol:

If Granger had Lebron-like handles, deron williams -like first step, Artest-like defense, Wade-like finishing ability and dwight howard-like strength.. then yea, Pippen is just another Danny Granger.

:roll:

Step your game up, Skyscrub.

[Dizzle-2k7]

So we are giving MJ credit for creating Scottie?..like some sort of Frankenstein NBA player?

:facepalm:

[Rasheed1]

If you're going to argue Pippen would be a top 50 player without MJ? You have to eliminate the fact he led the Bulls minus MJ. Why? Many feel MJ was helpful in Pippens development as a player. The work ethic, the approach, the challenges in practice or the vocal words os MJ in your ear. I think Pippen was a talented player coming out of college but we've seen many talented players not succeed as well as we thought they could. So I guess you could say he helped make Pippens transition to the NBA much smoother than had he gone to a bad team and tried to lead his way. Would Pippen have the same determination, work ethic, approach to the game or would he try to live off his talent until he realized there was more to the game than that?

I think thats what people contribute to MJ when it comes to Pippen. Pippen might have been another talented player that "could have been...". So perhaps MJ helped untap Pippen potential just by being a fierce competitor who challenged his teammates daily and expected perfection. Gave Pippen motivation to succeed because he was now set out to prove himself. Just a way to look at it. Just throwing it out there.

That said I think Pippen could have been one of the top 50 players of all time had he not played with MJ to start his career.

But to give Skip credit and I really dont think much of the guy (I can do his job). He isnt offbase with his comment.

I agree here and I also remember how much publicity any player got who happened to play on the Bulls when Mj played for them.. Guys who were stiffs got overrated due to playing with Mj in Chicago..

Im specifically thinking guys liek Scott williams and others..

I think Scottie had the talent to be what he became, but playing with Mj pushing him hard and the spotlight on the Bulls helped Scottie become known as a top 50

[Dizzle-2k7]

Reminder for the Scottie haters: He almost won a chip with the Bulls minus Jordan.. also almost won with the Trailblazers and he was like 40 yrs old.

Imagine Scottie with 8 rings? The Universal scales nearly tipped that way.

[Teanett]

Skip wouldn't be on TV if he didn't make comments like this.

that old fat drunk at my local bar says the same all the time and he ain't on tv.

[Skywalker]

:oldlol:

If Granger had Lebron-like handles, deron williams -like first step, Artest-like defense, Wade-like finishing ability and dwight howard-like strength.. then yea, Pippen is just another Danny Granger.

:roll:

Step your game up, Skyscrub.

are you scottie pippen? gtfo

[Dizzle-2k7]

are you scottie pippen? gtfo


http://gifsforum.com/images/image/you%20mad/mini/you_mad_kobe.jpg

[gengiskhan]

& this is a stone cold fact!!!

Pippen will still be a very good player without MJ with his versatile skills.

Pippen will not be an all time great without MJ with out being a Bull.

Pippen definitely will not be a top 50 GOATs without MJ.

Take 6 rings with 0 finals MVPs away from Pippen, Duncan & Kobe can easily replace him in Top 50 GOATs.

[Teanett]

.

Take 6 rings with 0 finals MVPs away from Pippen, Duncan & Kobe can easily replace him in Top 50 GOATs.

duncan and kobe already are top 50, you fool.
you have to find someone who is not. good luck.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Take 6 rings with 0 finals MVPs away from Pippen, Duncan & Kobe can easily replace him in Top 50 GOATs.

:wtf:

If the top 50 were re-done to include modern players, theres no doubt that Duncan, Kobe , AND Pippen would all be included in the top 50.

Pippen is top 30 to real hoop heads world wide.

[dude77]

almost doesn't count ...

almost = nothing


Reminder for the Scottie haters: He almost won a chip with the Bulls minus Jordan.. also almost won with the Trailblazers and he was like 40 yrs old.

Imagine Scottie with 8 rings? The Universal scales nearly tipped that way.

[CelticBaller]

http://gifsforum.com/images/image/you%20mad/mini/you_mad_kobe.jpg
hop off his dick

like GOBB said. MJ helped pippen develop

[bagelred]

I agree. Pippen is just another Danny Granger.

:lol

[Dizzle-2k7]

like GOBB said. MJ helped pippen develop

They helped each other.. it goes both ways, like your ph.aggot ass.

[bond10]

They helped each other.. it goes both ways, like your ph.aggot ass.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224613

[I]Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he

[Dizzle-2k7]

[QUOTE=bond10]http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224613

[I]Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he

[JMT]

Reminder for the Scottie haters: He almost won a chip with the Bulls minus Jordan.. also almost won with the Trailblazers and he was like 40 yrs old.

.

Almost did what???

Reminder for the Scottie lovers: The Bulls lost in the Eastern Conference SEMI-finals. That was the series where Pippen quit on his team. The next season, the Bulls were 3 games over .500 until Jordan returned...
then went 13-4 the rest of the way.

In Portland he was 34...his first season there... a 12 ppg/5 assist guy who was the third option, and lost in the WCF by blowing a 15 pt 4th quarter lead to LA.

But I guess Zach Randolph and James Harden will be excited to know they almost won chips this year!

Pippen was a really good player; a great player when teamed with Jordan. Nobody knows for certain what might have been, but we do know this: his non-Jordan years weren't played at a Top 50 All Time level.

[bond10]

in a nutshell: Scottie is almost as good as the GOAT.

How does that not make him top 30?

Defensively. However, as others have said and the article I've shown you...playing against Jordan during scrimmages made him a great defender. Also, beating the Knicks in a ECSF =/= championship. Still have to play ECF and the finals.

[Nevaeh]

almost doesn't count ...

almost = nothing

Not only that. How is making it to the Eastern Conference Semi Finals almost winning a chip?:oldlol:

With that logic, Rose's Bulls "Almost" won a championship this year. Or better yet, the Lakers "almost" had a 3-peat if it wasn't for the Mavs.

Pip was a great player, no doubt. But he has never, EVER had an Alpha Male, Take over a Game type personality. He strongly believes in the Team concept, which is great for the regular season and a couple Playoff Rounds, but not exactly enough to get over the hump to a championship, as was proven.

Edit: I see JMT had already made my first point.

[Indian guy]

:facepalm

I love this dudes rants on the Heat/Lebron, but he is so wrong about the great Scottie Pippen....

So you love him based on your agenda, eh?

[asdf1990]

Skip is a retard, something he says are okay but others u can clearly tell he is a huge jordan homer and a huge lebron troll.

For example his current top 5 players based on this post season
1) wade
2)dirk
3)kobe
4)melo
5) durant
6) lebron

Really.. he makes wade seem like the second coming of Jodan just so he can degrade lebron. Melo and kobe both got swept. Durant choked just as much as lebron and didn't make the finals.

[andgar923]

:facepalm

I love this dudes rants on the Heat/Lebron, but he is so wrong about the great Scottie Pippen.... #33 took the Bulls to 50+ wins without Jordan.. even better, they didnt even attempt to replace Jordan with some mid-tier player. They took the greatest player of all time off the team, and Scottie still took them deep and almost all the way if not for a once-in-a-lifetime 4 pt play.

What if NY never gets bailed out and Scottie wins a ring?.. Do people look at MJ a little differently?

Scotte - Legend with or without Jordan, though Jordan definetly helped...and vice versa.

http://i28.tinypic.com/23tlf00.jpg


I agree with Skip.

Pip without MJ isn't a top 50 and I doubt he's even an all star.

MJ MADE Pip, plain and simple.

Pip would've been a good player, maybe an all star and certainly not a top 50 player.

[DuMa]

there is some truth to this. MJ molded Pippen into the player he was.

[PowerGlove]

and MJ wouldnt be the goat without pippen. It works both ways, stop portraying Pippen as this parasite who just happened to land on Jordan and the bulls.

[Boston C's]

Whos to say Pippen didnt maximize Jordan's potential? It goes both ways brah.

yea because jordan averaging 37 ppg a yr before and winning mvp the same yr pippen came in the league had definitely a lot to do with pippen maximizing jordans potential

[Micku]

He wouldn't have gotten a lot of media attention without MJ, but he is definately a top 50 player. Why wouldn't he be? He was awesome.

[kentatm]

ok, but MJ wouldn't be considered the GOAT without Pippen so I guess it evens out.

[BlackJoker23]

I agree with Skip.

Pip without MJ isn't a top 50 and I doubt he's even an all star.

MJ MADE Pip, plain and simple.

Pip would've been a good player, maybe an all star and certainly not a top 50 player.
:rolleyes: based on this post, i can tell mj made you as well.

[Rysio]

:rolleyes: based on this post, i can tell mj made you as well.
:oldlol:

[Shepseskaf]

there is some truth to this. MJ molded Pippen into the player he was.
This is the key point. MJ pushed Pippen to become the player he would be, and Pippen, in turn, became a major factor in MJ winning championships and gaining GOAT status.

Given Pippen's laid-back upbringing in Arkansas, I doubt he would have become as hyper-competitive as he did, without having MJ as both a teammate and ultimate target.

So, people need to stop arguing the point on how far Pippen led the team in Jordan's absence. That happened after Pippen had been under MJ's tutelage.

[Teanett]

i shake my head at this.

if jordan's tuteledge and influence is so great, why didnt pete myers, brad sellers, mike brown, stacey king, jack haley, jason caffey and kwame brown become top 50 players? or top 100? or top 200?

[wang4three]

that old fat drunk at my local bar says the same all the time and he ain't on tv.

Exactly, his opinion is that equivalent to an old fat drunk. He's a paid troll. An American fatty's dream.

[Teanett]

and scott williams is a bust. had he listened to jordan's wisdom , he would've been the next artis gilmore.

[Nastradamus]

:oldlol:

If Granger had Lebron-like handles, deron williams -like first step, Artest-like defense, Wade-like finishing ability and dwight howard-like strength.. then yea, Pippen is just another Danny Granger.

:roll:

Step your game up, Skyscrub.

Got a little carried away by the end bro. Pippen was a nice finisher, but he wasn't Lebron/Wade/Amare or anything elite. That is not an insult to his finishing. Strong for a SF, but he wasn't as strong as Paul Pierce, let alone Dwight Howard.

Again, not a rip on Pippen though. His strength was his versatility. The guys you listed are all 10s in that one particular area. Pippen was a 10 on D and an 8 in all those other categories or something along those lines. Good ball handler for a SF, but not as skilled as people make him out to be these days. Poor shooter, not a great A/TO ratio for a primary ball handler.

Basically, he's the KG of SFs. Elite player, but probably in the sub group of elite players.

[eazyduzzit10]

Skip wouldn't be on TV if he didn't make comments like this.
This. Everyone needs that controversial person. His statements will always draw attention, maybe half of the time he doesn't even agree with his own statements lol

[Nastradamus]

This is the key point. MJ pushed Pippen to become the player he would be, and Pippen, in turn, became a major factor in MJ winning championships and gaining GOAT status.

Given Pippen's laid-back upbringing in Arkansas, I doubt he would have become as hyper-competitive as he did, without having MJ as both a teammate and ultimate target.

So, people need to stop arguing the point on how far Pippen led the team in Jordan's absence. That happened after Pippen had been under MJ's tutelage.

If anything it was probably Phil who was the main factor in motivating Pippen. Everyone needs some form of coaching or motivation. Michael had plenty of his own motivation for example, but Phil helped him direct and utilize it IMO. Pippen might be slightly better due to Phil or even Michael being in his ear, but the talent was there and he was going to be at or near the levels he reached no matter what most likely. There is little if any evidence to suggest that he had motivation issues of any kind. Like it was said, nobody else Jordan played with(or Phil coached for that matter) reached near the levels of Scottie.

[Micku]

If anything it was probably Phil who was the main factor in motivating Pippen. Everyone needs some form of coaching or motivation. Michael had plenty of his own motivation for example, but Phil helped him direct and utilize it IMO. Pippen might be slightly better due to Phil or even Michael being in his ear, but the talent was there and he was going to be at or near the levels he reached no matter what most likely. There is little if any evidence to suggest that he had motivation issues of any kind. Like it was said, nobody else Jordan played with(or Phil coached for that matter) reached near the levels of Scottie.

Pretty much.

[eazyduzzit10]

i shake my head at this.

if jordan's tuteledge and influence is so great, why didnt pete myers, brad sellers, mike brown, stacey king, jack haley, jason caffey and kwame brown become top 50 players? or top 100? or top 200?
I agree with you. Although MJ influenced Pippen in his career, who's to say that he wouldn't have developed that work ethic on his own? For Pippen to get to where he was, it didn't start with Jordan, it started with himself, he ha to have the drive to be great and history shows that he did have that. I'm not doubting MJ played a big part in his career but we can't say he's not top 50 without Jordan because we cannot say he would've just laid back and done nothing, Jordan did put up shots for him in practice, Jordan didn't lift the weights for him, in the end it all started with Pippen and Jordan was there to help him like any team mate would

[1Time4YourMind]

pippen remains one of greatest players in the game that became top 50 players under the right situation. a major part of Pippen's emergence was phil and MJ pushing him to become the player that he was. PJ always put MJ and Pippen on different teams during the early years so that they could always go toe to toe on the court, and that was a huge part in his development to the point where he became a better/more versatile defender than jordan himself.

i guess you could say that a lot of other great players are only top 50 because they landed in the right situation, but with scottie i feel that it helped him even more so. this doesn't take away anything from scottie at all; other great players that are similar in this respect are james worthy and most recently steve nash.

[Dizzle-2k7]

I agree with you. Although MJ influenced Pippen in his career, who's to say that he wouldn't have developed that work ethic on his own? For Pippen to get to where he was, it didn't start with Jordan, it started with himself, he ha to have the drive to be great and history shows that he did have that. I'm not doubting MJ played a big part in his career but we can't say he's not top 50 without Jordan because we cannot say he would've just laid back and done nothing, Jordan did put up shots for him in practice, Jordan didn't lift the weights for him, in the end it all started with Pippen and Jordan was there to help him like any team mate would

this. Pippen was gonna do his damn thing with or without Jordan.

[EricForman]

Reminder for the Scottie haters: He almost won a chip with the Bulls minus Jordan.. also almost won with the Trailblazers and he was like 40 yrs old.

Imagine Scottie with 8 rings? The Universal scales nearly tipped that way.


please stop with this BS propaganda that the 94 Bulls were close to the title.

the fact was they were a 55 win team that went out in the second round. that makes them no different than the early Dirk Mavs team or the Chris Paul-led Hornets in 2008.

Second round loss is a second round loss. Stop with this BS "they almost/shoulda been champs in 94". Using that same logic, Nique and Steve Nash are both woulda/shoulda champs 5 times.

[Samurai Swoosh]

This is the key point. MJ pushed Pippen to become the player he would be, and Pippen, in turn, became a major factor in MJ winning championships and gaining GOAT status.

Given Pippen's laid-back upbringing in Arkansas, I doubt he would have become as hyper-competitive as he did, without having MJ as both a teammate and ultimate target.

So, people need to stop arguing the point on how far Pippen led the team in Jordan's absence. That happened after Pippen had been under MJ's tutelage.
This

[97 bulls]

I love how pippen is the only player that needed to practice with someone to be great. That's the dumbest argument ever. Just dumb. Every succesful person in any facet of life can atrribute their success to someone.

You guys need to go back and look at what and how pippen made it to the nba. You gotta be a determined mofo in order to go from he was the ball manager and a part-time welder. He did this to fund his education at central arkansas. Him going from team manager to 5th pick overall in the nba more than trumps any kind of help jordan gave him to go from a 5th pick in the draft to a hall of famer.

I swear you guys are ****n retarded. What's next? Pippen sux cuz he couldn't beat teams 1 on 5?

And the most rediculous part is the same idiots that spout this nonsense (jordan fans) give jordan a pass even though he didn't win in his first 7 years. With the reaoning that jordan scored alot of points. What the **** does it matter? HE LOST THE ****N GAME!

The man avg almost a triple double and was third in the mvp voting the one year he had as the man. His defense was second to none. Wtf?

[97 bulls]

please stop with this BS propaganda that the 94 Bulls were close to the title.

the fact was they were a 55 win team that went out in the second round. that makes them no different than the early Dirk Mavs team or the Chris Paul-led Hornets in 2008.

Second round loss is a second round loss. Stop with this BS "they almost/shoulda been champs in 94". Using that same logic, Nique and Steve Nash are both woulda/shoulda champs 5 times.
Oh yes it does. Cuz its the context in which he did it. Compare his support to dirks or pauls. Give pippen david west, tyson chandler, peja, and bonzi wells or jason terry, josh howard, jerry stackhouse, and eric dampier when he was one of the leagues better centers and he wins a championship. As opposed to bj armsrtong, horace grant and rookie toni kukoc and pete myers.

[Alhazred]

http://i.imgur.com/kZWQX.jpg

This is all that really need to be said. Why do people bother taking Skip Bayless seriously?

[97 bulls]

pippen remains one of greatest players in the game that became top 50 players under the right situation. a major part of Pippen's emergence was phil and MJ pushing him to become the player that he was. PJ always put MJ and Pippen on different teams during the early years so that they could always go toe to toe on the court, and that was a huge part in his development to the point where he became a better/more versatile defender than jordan himself.

i guess you could say that a lot of other great players are only top 50 because they landed in the right situation, but with scottie i feel that it helped him even more so. this doesn't take away anything from scottie at all; other great players that are similar in this respect are james worthy and most recently steve nash.
Did you know pippen as a rookie? Cuz I just don't see how you could draw this conclusion without firsthand knowledge. Especially when in his first opportunity to start a playoff game he did very well.

[Dizzle-2k7]

I love how pippen is the only player that needed to practice with someone to be great. That's the dumbest argument ever. Just dumb. Every succesful person in any facet of life can atrribute their success to someone.

You guys need to go back and look at what and how pippen made it to the nba. You gotta be a determined mofo in order to go from he was the ball manager and a part-time welder. He did this to fund his education at central arkansas. Him going from team manager to 5th pick overall in the nba more than trumps any kind of help jordan gave him to go from a 5th pick in the draft to a hall of famer.

I swear you guys are ****n retarded. What's next? Pippen sux cuz he couldn't beat teams 1 on 5?

And the most rediculous part is the same idiots that spout this nonsense (jordan fans) give jordan a pass even though he didn't win in his first 7 years. With the reaoning that jordan scored alot of points. What the **** does it matter? HE LOST THE ****N GAME!

The man avg almost a triple double and was third in the mvp voting the one year he had as the man. His defense was second to none. Wtf?

:bowdown:

/thread

[Dizzle-2k7]

scottie pippen is one of the 5 greatest swingmen to ever play the game. anyone who thinks otherwise has never stepped on a basketball court.

[Smoke117]

I love how pippen is the only player that needed to practice with someone to be great. That's the dumbest argument ever. Just dumb. Every succesful person in any facet of life can atrribute their success to someone.

You guys need to go back and look at what and how pippen made it to the nba. You gotta be a determined mofo in order to go from he was the ball manager and a part-time welder. He did this to fund his education at central arkansas. Him going from team manager to 5th pick overall in the nba more than trumps any kind of help jordan gave him to go from a 5th pick in the draft to a hall of famer.

I swear you guys are ****n retarded. What's next? Pippen sux cuz he couldn't beat teams 1 on 5?

And the most rediculous part is the same idiots that spout this nonsense (jordan fans) give jordan a pass even though he didn't win in his first 7 years. With the reaoning that jordan scored alot of points. What the **** does it matter? HE LOST THE ****N GAME!

The man avg almost a triple double and was third in the mvp voting the one year he had as the man. His defense was second to none. Wtf?

Good man. I saw this thread earlier in the day and just didn't care to start arguing over something so idiotic, so thanks for putting it in words I would have.

[Shepseskaf]

You guys need to go back and look at what and how pippen made it to the nba. You gotta be a determined mofo in order to go from he was the ball manager and a part-time welder. He did this to fund his education at central arkansas. Him going from team manager to 5th pick overall in the nba more than trumps any kind of help jordan gave him to go from a 5th pick in the draft to a hall of famer.
There is documented evidence that neither Pippen, nor Horace Grant, were very serious about becoming great players at the beginning of their careers. Just read "The Jordan Rules," which specifically addresses this point.

Sam Smith was not in any way a Jordan homer, quite the opposite, but the picture he painted of Pippen and Grant were of two young players who were more interested in having fun, money, and living "the life" than in improving their play.

The book mentions that Jordan initially thought that neither of them were concerned enough with winning and/or getting better. The overall inference to be drawn was that it was Jordan's "grind it out" approach and demand for excellence that drew Pippen along. Phil's influence was certainly there as well.

So, there is no doubt that Pippen was ultra-talented. No one disputes that. But there is zero evidence that he came into the league as some super-serious rookie who was hell-bent on becoming the best player in the game. None. If you can find any articles written at the time which indicate this, I'll bow to your argument, but I don't think you'll find any.

[Floppy]

scottie pippen is one of the 5 greatest swingmen to ever play the game. anyone who thinks otherwise has never stepped on a basketball court.
You're so stupid it's unfathomable.

Missing the point through the whole thread while sounding like a stan but calling others haters.

:facepalm

[Pinkhearts]

Kobe wouldn't be a top 10 player without MJ's influence.

Buffett wouldn't be a great investor without Graham as his professor.

Obama wouldn't be president if he hadn't gone to college.


Who cares? As long as they did their work and raised their skills to the top, they deserve credit.

[JMT]

You guys need to go back and look at what and how pippen made it to the nba. You gotta be a determined mofo in order to go from he was the ball manager and a part-time welder. He did this to fund his education at central arkansas. Him going from team manager to 5th pick overall in the nba more than trumps any kind of help jordan gave him to go from a 5th pick in the draft to a hall of famer.



Wonderful human interest story and a testimony to his persistence.

Absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he was a Top 50 all Time player without Jordan as a teammate.

Not trying to discredit his career. It is what it is and stands on it's own merit. He absolutely deserved his inclusion on the Top 50 list.

But the fact is that, when at his peak and called upon to be The Man, he was very good. Not Top 50 All Time good. That's the only fact we have to go on as it relates to this topic..

[Roundball_Rock]

But the fact is that, when at his peak and called upon to be The Man, he was very good. Not Top 50 All Time good.

#1 in all-NBA voting
#1 in all-Defensive voting
#3 in MVP voting (#1 among Eastern conference players and non-centers)

What is your definition of "top 50 all-time good."? It is hilarious how people point to one season in which the Bulls nearly won the #1 seed without MJ despite Pip missing 10 games, look at the fact that Pippen did not win a ring and conclude he was overrated. That is profoundly idiotic. 94' was Pippen's 7th season. Cherry pick the 7th season of several randomly selected all-time greats. How many of them won rings that season? I bet most did not have as much success as Pippen did.


So, there is no doubt that Pippen was ultra-talented. No one disputes that. But there is zero evidence that he came into the league as some super-serious rookie who was hell-bent on becoming the best player in the game.

Zero evidence? How about his coach, Doug Collins? Collins, his coach, saw the work ethic and potential in Pippen and devoted extra time in practice to help develop him. :oldlol: at MJ homers trying to argue that someone who had such an intense work ethic and desire in college and during his professional career mysteriously saw that vanish for a brief interval at the beginning of his NBA career only to be rescued by the lord and savior Michael Jordan.

This is a perfect example of why MJ is overrated. Do you so such absurdity with any other sports legend? If MJ was so great at "making" legends why are his Bobcats a joke? Why not "make" a Pippen there? No one says Joe Montana "made" Jerry Rice or that Moses Malone working with Hakeem in the summer "made" Hakeem, that Jason Kidd "made" Steve Nash, that Lemieux "made" Jagr, Gretzky "made" Messier, Jeff Gordon "made" Jimmie Johnson and so on. ONLY with respect to Jordan--and vis-a-vis only one player MJ played with--is such mythology applied.

MJ is a cultural phenomenon with a religious overtones who is ascribed some god-like qualities and credited for things that he did not do and pointed to as an example for things he did but he "never would do."

Where would Jordan rank without Pippen? He could have been another Lebron: great personal stats, but ringless.

[Da_Realist]

Zero evidence? How about his coach, Doug Collins?

From Playing For Keeps by David Halberstam pages 227-228

The Jordan-Pippen relationship was quite different, more like teacher-student. Jordan could see Pippen's raw talent, and he knew Pippen lacked all the advantages that he had enjoyed because of the richness of the Carolina program. He set out not only to work with Pippen on the most elemental drills but to teach him the sort of toughness the NBA demanded. (There was, though, one move Pippen could make that Jordan could not: If they both stood out of bounds under the basket holding the ball and leaped out on the court, Pippen, without ever touching the ground, could slam the ball through with his left hand, and Jordan could not. Johnny Bach thought it might be that Pippen's hands were slightly larger.)

The more Jordan sensed that Pippen was becoming serious, the more he was willing to invest in him. That took some time, because for a long time Jordan was not entirely sure of Pippen's toughness, nor of his heart, nor of the totality of his and Grant's commitment. They were teammates, bonded by their talents but not really friends, the social gap between them still very large. Jordan was innately confident in all aspects of his life, as confident off the floor as he was on it; Pippen was very tentative in so many ways, the stamp of Arkansas poverty still deep in him.

Ever so slowly, the two came around to each other: Jordan just a little wary about commiting himself to a player he was still unsure of, and Pippen gradually accepting Jordan as, if not teacher, then certainly role model. More and more frequently, Collins saw the two of them working with together after practice, working on their jumpshots, or Jordan working with Pippen on the most elemental of moves, such as how to break the double team or how to swing either way when pressed by the defense along the baseline. Years later, after watching Pippen's game improve incrementally year after year, even after the championship years, Collins realized that in some ways Michael Jordan, working with a player who had a degree of hunger and talent none of them fully appreciated, had virtually cloned himself. The player who came out on the floor alongside Jordan later in their careers might as well have been a product of Dean Smith's Carolina program.

[Samurai Swoosh]

From Playing For Keeps by David Halberstam pages 227-228

The Jordan-Pippen relationship was quite different, more like teacher-student. Jordan could see Pippen's raw talent, and he knew Pippen lacked all the advantages that he had enjoyed because of the richness of the Carolina program. He set out not only to work with Pippen on the most elemental drills but to teach him the sort of toughness the NBA demanded. (There was, though, one move Pippen could make that Jordan could not: If they both stood out of bounds under the basket holding the ball and leaped out on the court, Pippen, without ever touching the ground, could slam the ball through with his left hand, and Jordan could not. Johnny Bach thought it might be that Pippen's hands were slightly larger.)
The more Jordan sensed that Pippen was becoming serious, the more he was willing to invest in him. That took some time, because for a long time Jordan was not entirely sure of Pippen's toughness, nor of his heart, nor of the totality of his and Grant's commitment. They were teammates, bonded by their talents but not really friends, the social gap between them still very large. Jordan was innately confident in all aspects of his life, as confident off the floor as he was on it; Pippen was very tentative in so many ways, the stamp of Arkansas poverty still deep in him.
Ever so slowly, the two came around to each other: Jordan just a little wary about commiting himself to a player he was still unsure of, and Pippen gradually accepting Jordan as, if not teacher, then certainly role model. More and more frequently, Collins saw the two of them working with together after practice, working on their jumpshots, or Jordan working with Pippen on the most elemental of moves, such as how to break the double team or how to swing either way when pressed by the defense along the baseline. Years later, after watching Pippen's game improve incrementally year after year, even after the championship years, Collins realized that in some ways Michael Jordan, working with a player who had a degree of hunger and talent none of them fully appreciated, had virtually cloned himself. The player who came out on the floor alongside Jordan later in their careers might as well have been a product of Dean Smith's Carolina program.
Roundball Rock will not read ... doesn't fit his agenda.

[juju151111]

From Playing For Keeps by David Halberstam pages 227-228

The Jordan-Pippen relationship was quite different, more like teacher-student. Jordan could see Pippen's raw talent, and he knew Pippen lacked all the advantages that he had enjoyed because of the richness of the Carolina program. He set out not only to work with Pippen on the most elemental drills but to teach him the sort of toughness the NBA demanded. (There was, though, one move Pippen could make that Jordan could not: If they both stood out of bounds under the basket holding the ball and leaped out on the court, Pippen, without ever touching the ground, could slam the ball through with his left hand, and Jordan could not. Johnny Bach thought it might be that Pippen's hands were slightly larger.)

The more Jordan sensed that Pippen was becoming serious, the more he was willing to invest in him. That took some time, because for a long time Jordan was not entirely sure of Pippen's toughness, nor of his heart, nor of the totality of his and Grant's commitment. They were teammates, bonded by their talents but not really friends, the social gap between them still very large. Jordan was innately confident in all aspects of his life, as confident off the floor as he was on it; Pippen was very tentative in so many ways, the stamp of Arkansas poverty still deep in him.

Ever so slowly, the two came around to each other: Jordan just a little wary about commiting himself to a player he was still unsure of, and Pippen gradually accepting Jordan as, if not teacher, then certainly role model. More and more frequently, Collins saw the two of them working with together after practice, working on their jumpshots, or Jordan working with Pippen on the most elemental of moves, such as how to break the double team or how to swing either way when pressed by the defense along the baseline. Years later, after watching Pippen's game improve incrementally year after year, even after the championship years, Collins realized that in some ways Michael Jordan, working with a player who had a degree of hunger and talent none of them fully appreciated, had virtually cloned himself. The player who came out on the floor alongside Jordan later in their careers might as well have been a product of Dean Smith's Carolina program.
BS that never happen. Pippen came in the league has the freaking Goat. He wasn't getting bitched by the pistons year after year. Nope his confidence was sky high
:rolleyes: Grant in a recent interview"We didn't have the confidence coming in the league, but MJ gave it to us and made us champs." MJ was hard on them, but they got the point.

[andgar923]

From Playing For Keeps by David Halberstam pages 227-228

The Jordan-Pippen relationship was quite different, more like teacher-student. Jordan could see Pippen's raw talent, and he knew Pippen lacked all the advantages that he had enjoyed because of the richness of the Carolina program. He set out not only to work with Pippen on the most elemental drills but to teach him the sort of toughness the NBA demanded. (There was, though, one move Pippen could make that Jordan could not: If they both stood out of bounds under the basket holding the ball and leaped out on the court, Pippen, without ever touching the ground, could slam the ball through with his left hand, and Jordan could not. Johnny Bach thought it might be that Pippen's hands were slightly larger.)

The more Jordan sensed that Pippen was becoming serious, the more he was willing to invest in him. That took some time, because for a long time Jordan was not entirely sure of Pippen's toughness, nor of his heart, nor of the totality of his and Grant's commitment. They were teammates, bonded by their talents but not really friends, the social gap between them still very large. Jordan was innately confident in all aspects of his life, as confident off the floor as he was on it; Pippen was very tentative in so many ways, the stamp of Arkansas poverty still deep in him.

Ever so slowly, the two came around to each other: Jordan just a little wary about commiting himself to a player he was still unsure of, and Pippen gradually accepting Jordan as, if not teacher, then certainly role model. More and more frequently, Collins saw the two of them working with together after practice, working on their jumpshots, or Jordan working with Pippen on the most elemental of moves, such as how to break the double team or how to swing either way when pressed by the defense along the baseline. Years later, after watching Pippen's game improve incrementally year after year, even after the championship years, Collins realized that in some ways Michael Jordan, working with a player who had a degree of hunger and talent none of them fully appreciated, had virtually cloned himself. The player who came out on the floor alongside Jordan later in their careers might as well have been a product of Dean Smith's Carolina program.

How long was his wingspan?

Or did I misread?

He could dunk without jumping?

And good drop (as usual) btw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU

[EricForman]

Oh yes it does. Cuz its the context in which he did it. Compare his support to dirks or pauls. Give pippen david west, tyson chandler, peja, and bonzi wells or jason terry, josh howard, jerry stackhouse, and eric dampier when he was one of the leagues better centers and he wins a championship. As opposed to bj armsrtong, horace grant and rookie toni kukoc and pete myers.


You misunderstood me. I wasn't comparing Pippen vs Chris Paul or Dirk. I was saying, the bottom line is, the 94 Bulls team lost in the second round, yet fake Pippen fans (they're not really Pippen fans, more anti Jordan guys) twist the logic and words to make it sound like the 94 Bulls woulda won the title and were almost as good as the 93 Bulls team ("only two fewer regular season loss!" they'd say, without factoring in variables like how each season runs differently and comparing records from different seasons doens't make sense).

The fact is the 94 Bulls lost in the second round. Second round exit. To spin that into "woulda been champs" is dumb, that's like me saying Dirk and Nash are both woulda-been-champs 6 times because in 2001-2007 they had some good teams that lost in the second round.

If 93 Bulls play 94 Bulls in a 7 game series the 93 Bulls probably sweep. That's the difference between the two teams. To use regular season records from different seasons to imply the 94 Bulls team was "almost, almost" as good is stupid. The 2001 Lakers won fewer regular season games than the 2000 Lakers but no one would ever rank the 2000 team over the 2001 team in all time greats. Why's that?

Because regular season records from different seasons can't be accurately compared. I don't give a crap if 94 won only two games, they were far inferior to 93 team. 94 team was a second round exit team, which meant it accomplished exactly as much as the Atlanta Hawks did this year.

[97 bulls]

Kobe wouldn't be a top 10 player without MJ's influence.

Buffett wouldn't be a great investor without Graham as his professor.

Obama wouldn't be president if he hadn't gone to college.


Who cares? As long as they did their work and raised their skills to the top, they deserve credit.
Exactly. As I've said before, jordans greatest strength was his will and determination. And he attributes that to playing his brother in their backyard. His brother would beat him but. Once he beat his brother, he believed there was noone that could stop him. Should we hold this against jordan? By say that if he didn't play his brother daily, he wouldn't be as great?

[Dizzle-2k7]

Years later, after watching Pippen's game improve incrementally year after year, even after the championship years, Collins realized that in some ways Michael Jordan, working with a player who had a degree of hunger and talent none of them fully appreciated, had virtually cloned himself.

Pippen will never be appreciated the way he deserves to be, Magic and Kareem didnt win 6 rings. Both get love. Shaq and Kobe didnt win 6 rings. Both get love. I could go on all night.

Pippen was a soldier of immense heights. Top 30 player.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Do you so such absurdity with any other sports legend? If MJ was so great at "making" legends why are his Bobcats a joke? Why not "make" a Pippen there? No one says Joe Montana "made" Jerry Rice or that Moses Malone working with Hakeem in the summer "made" Hakeem, that Jason Kidd "made" Steve Nash, that Lemieux "made" Jagr, Gretzky "made" Messier, Jeff Gordon "made" Jimmie Johnson and so on. ONLY with respect to Jordan--and vis-a-vis only one player MJ played with--is such mythology applied.




Move along move along nothing to see here. Pippen haters will not have a reply for this at all. Lets all just act like ROundballRock didnt just make this post.

:violin:

[Da_Realist]

Exactly. As I've said before, jordans greatest strength was his will and determination. And he attributes that to playing his brother in their backyard. His brother would beat him but. Once he beat his brother, he believed there was noone that could stop him. Should we hold this against jordan? By say that if he didn't play his brother daily, he wouldn't be as great?

Is anyone saying that Jordan's brother didn't play a huge role in MJ's development? Or that Dean Smith's Carolina program didn't play a huge role? I don't think anyone would say MJ came out of the womb as the greatest basketball player. Obviously his life experiences shaped him. Without Dean Smith's program, MJ is not MJ. Without Scottie working with MJ during his early years, Scottie is not Scottie.

[EricForman]

Move along move along nothing to see here. Pippen haters will not have a reply for this at all. Lets all just act like ROundballRock didnt just make this post.

:violin:


come on now, not everyone made the argument that Jordan "made" Pippen. I don't believe that, and I realize Pippen woulda been great regardless.

but roundball is still a troll for implying that Pippen is near Jordan's equal. and you using Kareem/Magic, Kobe/Shaq as example? Doesn't fly because those duos were more equals in greatness than Jordan and Pippen.

Pippen is great but Jordan was significantly greater.

I have Pippen in the 20-35 range.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Is anyone saying that Jordan's brother didn't play a huge role in MJ's development? Or that Dean Smith's Carolina program didn't play a huge role? I don't think anyone would say MJ came out of the womb as the greatest basketball player. Obviously his life experiences shaped him. Without Dean Smith's program, MJ is not MJ. Without Scottie working with MJ during his early years, Scottie is not Scottie.

I dont think anyone is doubting Jordan had some influence on Scottie. But this is about Scottie getting recognized as a top 50 player.

Stop hugging Jordan's nuts and stick to the script, boy.

[Da_Realist]

I dont think anyone is doubting Jordan had some influence on Scottie. But this is about Scottie getting recognized as a top 50 player.

Stop hugging Jordan's nuts and stick to the script, boy.

:rolleyes: Another 12 year old with nothing to do while his parents are at work.

[97 bulls]

You misunderstood me. I wasn't comparing Pippen vs Chris Paul or Dirk. I was saying, the bottom line is, the 94 Bulls team lost in the second round, yet fake Pippen fans (they're not really Pippen fans, more anti Jordan guys) twist the logic and words to make it sound like the 94 Bulls woulda won the title and were almost as good as the 93 Bulls team ("only two fewer regular season loss!" they'd say, without factoring in variables like how each season runs differently and comparing records from different seasons doens't make sense).

The fact is the 94 Bulls lost in the second round. Second round exit. To spin that into "woulda been champs" is dumb, that's like me saying Dirk and Nash are both woulda-been-champs 6 times because in 2001-2007 they had some good teams that lost in the second round.

If 93 Bulls play 94 Bulls in a 7 game series the 93 Bulls probably sweep. That's the difference between the two teams. To use regular season records from different seasons to imply the 94 Bulls team was "almost, almost" as good is stupid. The 2001 Lakers won fewer regular season games than the 2000 Lakers but no one would ever rank the 2000 team over the 2001 team in all time greats. Why's that?

Because regular season records from different seasons can't be accurately compared. I don't give a crap if 94 won only two games, they were far inferior to 93 team. 94 team was a second round exit team, which meant it accomplished exactly as much as the Atlanta Hawks did this year.
I don't think anyone is saying that the 94 bulls were better than 93. But when you say that pippen couldn't win cuz he didn't do it in 94. That's just a hate statement. Cuz you let jordan slide even though he didn't win ealry in his career. Its a hypocritical pov.

Same as when people say jordan made pippen. That's just dumb. All players are influenced from others. Especially their teammates. How do we know jordan ends up being the goat if he doesn't go to north carolina under dean smith? One of the greatest college coaches ever. You don't think playing james worthy helped jordan while he was in college?

Its just a silly double standard.

[Dizzle-2k7]

:rolleyes: Another 12 year old with nothing to do while his parents are at work.

:facepalm

Legendary rebuttle.

[andgar923]

Do we really need to start posting actual performance differentials to prove what the gap between MJ and Pip, was compared to other star duos?

And....

Do we really need to keep reminding some of you hard headed knuckleheads that MJ MADE Pip into the player he became?

Like somebody mentioned, the 94 Pip doesn't happen if MJ isn't there from the beginning of his career to mold him, not just skills wise, but as a leader, mental toughness, consistency etc.etc.

Anybody that's ever played basketball will tell you, that you become the player you are based on your experiences. MJ instilled Pip with those experiences needed by taking him with a timid player with 'potential', to a top 50 player. Take away MJ from his career, he never has those experiences, chances are he doesn't become mentally tough, he doesn't become the player he becomes since he doesn't face MICHAEL JORDAN every day in practice and the off season. He doesn't have MJ to constantly push him to make him better, YES even if it means being chastised and criticized, that tends to work on some people.

Now.... do we need to pull out more evidence to show that Pip was a timid, shy, weak player?

As I metioned before.... without MJ, Pip would struggle to even be an all star.

[andgar923]

I don't think anyone is saying that the 94 bulls were better than 93. But when you say that pippen couldn't win cuz he didn't do it in 94. That's just a hate statement. Cuz you let jordan slide even though he didn't win ealry in his career. Its a hypocritical pov.

Same as when people say jordan made pippen. That's just dumb. All players are influenced from others. Especially their teammates. How do we know jordan ends up being the goat if he doesn't go to north carolina under dean smith? One of the greatest college coaches ever. You don't think playing james worthy helped jordan while he was in college?

Its just a silly double standard.

Not even the same argument.

[97 bulls]

Is anyone saying that Jordan's brother didn't play a huge role in MJ's development? Or that Dean Smith's Carolina program didn't play a huge role? I don't think anyone would say MJ came out of the womb as the greatest basketball player. Obviously his life experiences shaped him. Without Dean Smith's program, MJ is not MJ. Without Scottie working with MJ during his early years, Scottie is not Scottie.
Yes but noone says it in a derogatory way. That's the difference. Were saying that all successful people can attribute that success to someone. Why is pippen held under a different light?

[EricForman]

I don't think anyone is saying that the 94 bulls were better than 93. But when you say that pippen couldn't win cuz he didn't do it in 94. That's just a hate statement. Cuz you let jordan slide even though he didn't win ealry in his career. Its a hypocritical pov.

Same as when people say jordan made pippen. That's just dumb. All players are influenced from others. Especially their teammates. How do we know jordan ends up being the goat if he doesn't go to north carolina under dean smith? One of the greatest college coaches ever. You don't think playing james worthy helped jordan while he was in college?

Its just a silly double standard.

Okay, there's some form of miscommunication between us, and perhaps you've mistaken me for the hardcore Jordan fans.

I never said Pippen wasn't top 50, or that I think he woulda never led a team nowhere. I'm referring to the Fake Pippen Fans (Roundball, Fatal9, who are really Kobe fans) spinning the 94 Bulls into some infamous great team that was one or two bad calls away from winning the title.

Trust me, Roundball and other Jordan haters have definitely abused that "94 Bulls team only won two fewer games" argument to death (they're essentially implying the 94 Bulls were ALMOST as good without Jordan, meaning Jordan was overrated and not that important)

Jordan couldn't win early in his career because his cast was horrible. Pippen himself was mediocre his first two years in the league.

I think Pippen is a top 50 player and an all time great. However, I think he's a second tier all time great, and not on the level of someone say Jordan, Magic, Bird, or even Duncan and Kobe. Pip could have won titles as the man, but I doubt he woulda ever won multiple and been on that Jordan/Magic/Bird level.

[andgar923]

I dont think anyone is doubting Jordan had some influence on Scottie. But this is about Scottie getting recognized as a top 50 player.

Stop hugging Jordan's nuts and stick to the script, boy.

Had 'some influence'? really?

MJ had more than just 'some influence', anybody thinking otherwise is fooling themselves.

MJ had 'some influence' in damnn near every wing player's career. From Stackhouse, Wade, Tmac, Kobe etc.etc. in the same way that David Thompson influenced MJ, in the same way that Magic and Tmac influenced Bron.

MJ actually worked diligently every day for hours on end with Pippen, both on and off the court, during the season and off season, before practice, during practice, and after practice, he played with him on the court for almost his entire career.

I think that's more than just "some influence" wouldn't you agree?

[Da_Realist]

Yes but noone says it in a derogatory way. That's the difference. Were saying that all successful people can attribute that success to someone. Why is pippen held under a different light?

It is a little different, though, don't you think? Can you think of another situation where a superstar player has such a role in another player's development? Maybe there exists other situations but I can't recall any. Even more impressive was how much Pippen grew as a player through the years. Obviously Jordan wasn't the only influence here but it is unique.

[andgar923]

It is a little different, though, don't you think? Can you think of another situation where a superstar player has such a role in another player's development? Maybe there exists other situations but I can't recall any. Even more impressive was how much Pippen grew as a player through the years. Obviously Jordan wasn't the only influence here but it is unique.

I think the issue here is the definitions of the words "made" (used by me and other Jordan fans) and "influenced" (used by well....).

Since those defending Pippen take offense to the word "made" howabout we just state "Molded"?

Because "influence" doesn't begin to describe the role MJ played in Pippen's career.

How does that sound Kobe fans... I mean Pippen fans? does "mold" sound better?

[97 bulls]

Do we really need to start posting actual performance differentials to prove what the gap between MJ and Pip, was compared to other star duos?

And....

Do we really need to keep reminding some of you hard headed knuckleheads that MJ MADE Pip into the player he became?
he didn't make anything. The talent was there and he helped bring it out.
Like somebody mentioned, the 94 Pip doesn't happen if MJ isn't there from the beginning of his career to mold him, not just skills wise, but as a leader, mental toughness, consistency etc.etc.
and as has been rebuttaled, who can you say succeeded without help? Its that double standard.
Anybody that's ever played basketball will tell you, that you become the player you are based on your experiences. MJ instilled Pip with those experiences needed by taking him with a timid player with 'potential', to a top 50 player. Take away MJ from his career, he never has those experiences, chances are he doesn't become mentally tough, he doesn't become the player he becomes since he doesn't face MICHAEL JORDAN every day in practice and the off season. He doesn't have MJ to constantly push him to make him better, YES even if it means being chastised and criticized, that tends to work on some people.
this is something we don't know. And like teannett said. Why is pippen the only player that jordan made great? Why not brad sellers? Or kwame brown?
Now.... do we need to pull out more evidence to show that Pip was a timid, shy, weak player?

As I metioned before.... without MJ, Pip would struggle to even be an all star.

That's something you can't prove. But we do know that when pippen was out of jordans shadow, he was great. Better than anyone thought he'd be.

[97 bulls]

Okay, there's some form of miscommunication between us, and perhaps you've mistaken me for the hardcore Jordan fans.

I never said Pippen wasn't top 50, or that I think he woulda never led a team nowhere. I'm referring to the Fake Pippen Fans (Roundball, Fatal9, who are really Kobe fans) spinning the 94 Bulls into some infamous great team that was one or two bad calls away from winning the title.

Trust me, Roundball and other Jordan haters have definitely abused that "94 Bulls team only won two fewer games" argument to death (they're essentially implying the 94 Bulls were ALMOST as good without Jordan, meaning Jordan was overrated and not that important)

Jordan couldn't win early in his career because his cast was horrible. Pippen himself was mediocre his first two years in the league.

I think Pippen is a top 50 player and an all time great. However, I think he's a second tier all time great, and not on the level of someone say Jordan, Magic, Bird, or even Duncan and Kobe. Pip could have won titles as the man, but I doubt he woulda ever won multiple and been on that Jordan/Magic/Bird level.
I couldn't have said it better myself:cheers:

[andgar923]

That's something you can't prove. But we do know that when pippen was out of jordans shadow, he was great. Better than anyone thought he'd be.

Obviously Pip had potential, and obviously credit has to be given to Pippen. But to assume that he would've been a top 50 player (shit even an all star) without MJ doesn't add up according to what we saw.

As we've seen, there's many skilled players in the league, but it takes a mental toughness and consistency to become an all star. It takes even more than that to be a top 50 player. And while Pip may have had some of the skills, he clearly didn't have any of the other dynamics that makes one an all star and specially a top 50 player.

It's easy to look back in hindsight and say "well Pip won rings, and he helped MJ" sure... .but that wasn't always the case, and it was a work in progress. That's where MJ comes into the picture.

I agree that he maximized Pip's potential, but more than anything he molded him into the player he eventually became. Pip himself states this all the time, coaches, past teammates etc.etc. why is it so hard for some to understand (not necessarily you)?

[97 bulls]

It is a little different, though, don't you think? Can you think of another situation where a superstar player has such a role in another player's development? Maybe there exists other situations but I can't recall any. Even more impressive was how much Pippen grew as a player through the years. Obviously Jordan wasn't the only influence here but it is unique.
How bout dwight horad and patrick ewing? Im sure malone helped olajuwan. To a lesser degree kareem and bynum? How bout worthy and jordan at unc? Jordan wasn't highly touted comming out of high school.

[Da_Realist]

How bout dwight horad and patrick ewing? Im sure malone helped olajuwan. To a lesser degree kareem and bynum? How bout worthy and jordan at unc? Jordan wasn't highly touted comming out of high school.

Moses is credited all the time with Hakeem's development.

the other cases are totally different.

[97 bulls]

Obviously Pip had potential, and obviously credit has to be given to Pippen. But to assume that he would've been a top 50 player (shit even an all star) without MJ doesn't add up according to what we saw.

As we've seen, there's many skilled players in the league, but it takes a mental toughness and consistency to become an all star. It takes even more than that to be a top 50 player. And while Pip may have had some of the skills, he clearly didn't have any of the other dynamics that makes one an all star and specially a top 50 player.

It's easy to look back in hindsight and say "well Pip won rings, and he helped MJ" sure... .but that wasn't always the case, and it was a work in progress. That's where MJ comes into the picture.

I agree that he maximized Pip's potential, but more than anything he molded him into the player he eventually became. Pip himself states this all the time, coaches, past teammates etc.etc. why is it so hard for some to understand (not necessarily you)?

Im with a buddy and he brought up a great point. Pippen and jordans styeles weren't the same. Your argument would be stronger if pippen played similar to jordan but he didn't. Jordan didn't teach pippen to be a pg. And to be that versitle.

Maybe if pippens style was that of a jordan, wade or kobe id agree. But pippen was more like james, hill, or robertson

[andgar923]

Im with a buddy and he brought up a great point. Pippen and jordans styeles weren't the same. Your argument would be stronger if pippen played similar to jordan but he didn't. Jordan didn't teach pippen to be a pg. And to be that versitle.

Maybe if pippens style was that of a jordan, wade or kobe id agree. But pippen was more like james, hill, or robertson

What do styles have to do with this?

Styles is only a viable argument when it comes to "influence" which is what some people are trying to state. But as I've stated, MJ's impact on Pip's career was more than just influence. MJ 'molded' him into the player he became, less to do with style and more to do with preparation, mental toughness, reading defense, etc.etc.

And who's to say that Pip even become a point forward if he gets drafted for another team? hell... who's to say that Pip even becomes a point forward if the Bulls don't implement the Triangle?

Remember that along with playing with Mike, the triangle is what allowed Pip to be a point forward. This has a high chance of not happening under a different system and with different teammates.

But let us all forget and ignore comments by Pip, ex Bulls coaches, ex Bulls teammates, reporters etc.etc.

[97 bulls]

Wonderful human interest story and a testimony to his persistence.

Absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he was a Top 50 all Time player without Jordan as a teammate.

Not trying to discredit his career. It is what it is and stands on it's own merit. He absolutely deserved his incvlusion on the Top 50 list.

But the fact is that, when at his peak and called upon to be The Man, he was very good. Not Top 50 All Time good. That's the only fact we have to go on as it relates to this topic..
Its my understanding that the topic is whether or not pippen could've been succesful without jordan. And the people that say he couldn't. Say this cuz jordan "made" him. Jordan gave him the determination to be great. I feel pippen had it in him. And backed this assumption up by pointing out the road he took to get to the nba. I've seen players hell people give up in spite of having an easier road. The determination was there.

And here a little fun fact for you. You saying that pippen shouldn't have been top 50 all time couldn't be wronger. Did you know that pippen lead his team in every major category? Something that's only been done 3 other times. To put this in perspective. There's only been 4 players to avg over 35 ppg. What pippen did. Was more rare than a 35+ pont per game season. Add to it that he at SF lead his team to a number 2 defensive rating that year too. This with a lineup that had bj armsrtong and toni kukoc in it. Two terrible defenders.

[Da_Realist]

Its my understanding that the topic is whether or not pippen could've been succesful without jordan. And the people that say he couldn't. Say this cuz jordan "made" him. Jordan gave him the determination to be great.

I, for one, am not saying that. I have no idea. It's one of those woulda coulda shoulda questions that we'll never know the answer to. We know, given the circumstances of his career, he WAS a top 50 player. That's all that should matter anyway.

[97 bulls]

What do styles have to do with this?

Styles is only a viable argument when it comes to "influence" which is what some people are trying to state. But as I've stated, MJ's impact on Pip's career was more than just influence. MJ 'molded' him into the player he became, less to do with style and more to do with preparation, mental toughness, reading defense, etc.etc.
how can you mold someone into a style that totally different from what your accustomed too? That's the point. And I've already pointed out that pippen determination was there.
And who's to say that Pip even become a point forward if he gets drafted for another team? hell... who's to say that Pip even becomes a point forward if the Bulls don't implement the Triangle?
he was a pg in college. He was 6'1 and grew 7 inches and setteled in as a point forward
Remember that along with playing with Mike, the triangle is what allowed Pip to be a point forward. This has a high chance of not happening under a different system and with different teammates.
it was pippens skill-set that allowed him to be the player that ran the offense of the 6 time champion bulls.
But let us all forget and ignore comments by Pip, ex Bulls coaches, ex Bulls teammates, reporters etc.etc.
The comments don't show that jordan made pippen. Did he help pip? Sure. But make? Come on. You guys are acting as if jordan taught pippen basketball.

[97 bulls]

I, for one, am not saying that. I have no idea. It's one of those woulda coulda shoulda questions that we'll never know the answer to. We know, given the circumstances of his career, he WAS a top 50 player. That's all that should matter anyway.
Oh yeah. I know your a strong pippen fan. So I take to heart your pov. Even if we disagree. I was directing that at someone else. Your one of the more unbiased posters.
.
I think andgar has a little pippen love in him too. We just gotta bring it out. Lol

[Nevaeh]

Oh yeah. I know your a strong pippen fan. So I take to heart your pov. Even if we disagree. I was directing that at someone else. Your one of the more unbiased posters.
.
I think andgar has a little pippen love in him too. We just gotta bring it out. Lol

I always wondered this 97 Bulls. How exactly do you want Pippen to be percieved? By that I mean, as far as his ranking, role on the team etc. Because it seems you get irritated no matter where people place Pippen, be it top 20 or below, a facilitator instead of initiator etc.

You obviously can't deny Jordan's influence on Pip's career though. They used to have articles back in the 90s about how Pip's play-style back then looked heavily MJ influenced (I believe the book "The Jordan Rules" also touched on this a bit as well).

No Matter how you slice it, MJ was a big influence on Pip, as evidenced by Pippen choosing MJ as his Hall of Fame Presenter:

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp268/Kcerid/ScottiePippenHOFwithMJ.jpg

[JMT]

You saying that pippen shouldn't have been top 50 all time couldn't be wronger. .

Aside from the fact that "wronger" isn't a word, you're so blinded by homerism that you can't even read what you've responded to

Originally Posted by JMT
Wonderful human interest story and a testimony to his persistence.

Absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he was a Top 50 all Time player without Jordan as a teammate.

Not trying to discredit his career. It is what it is and stands on it's own merit. He absolutely deserved his inclusion on the Top 50 list.

Reading. it's fundamental.

As for your point about Pippen leading his team in ever major statistical category: it's undermined considerably when you talk about how crappy his teammates were.

[Smoke117]

What do styles have to do with this?

Styles is only a viable argument when it comes to "influence" which is what some people are trying to state. But as I've stated, MJ's impact on Pip's career was more than just influence. MJ 'molded' him into the player he became, less to do with style and more to do with preparation, mental toughness, reading defense, etc.etc.

And who's to say that Pip even become a point forward if he gets drafted for another team? hell... who's to say that Pip even becomes a point forward if the Bulls don't implement the Triangle?

Remember that along with playing with Mike, the triangle is what allowed Pip to be a point forward. This has a high chance of not happening under a different system and with different teammates.

But let us all forget and ignore comments by Pip, ex Bulls coaches, ex Bulls teammates, reporters etc.etc.

Pippen stated in an interview on draft night that he expected to end up being a pg. A lot of people don't realize that when he went to college he was only 6'1" and grew to 6'7" by the end of his senior year. He started out as a pg and never outgrew those instincts. If anything playing in the triangle offense curtailed his full potential as a pg. The only place he ever got to actually be a true pg was on the Blazers in 2002 at 36.

[Teanett]

Pippen stated in an interview on draft night that he expected to end up being a pg. A lot of people don't realize that when he went to college he was only 6'1" and grew to 6'7" by the end of his senior year. He started out as a pg and never outgrew those instincts. If anything playing in the triangle offense curtailed his full potential as a pg. The only place he ever got to actually be a true pg was on the Blazers in 2002 at 36.

goddamn smoke, i agree with you!

[Butters]

Are you people saying Pip was good because Of Jordans "teachings"?...Pippen was Pippen...it seems weird that he would be the only player Jordan rubbed off on,or maybe..just maybe..he was a great player.With or with out MJ,He's top 30,easily.

[andgar923]

Pippen stated in an interview on draft night that he expected to end up being a pg. A lot of people don't realize that when he went to college he was only 6'1" and grew to 6'7" by the end of his senior year. He started out as a pg and never outgrew those instincts. If anything playing in the triangle offense curtailed his full potential as a pg. The only place he ever got to actually be a true pg was on the Blazers in 2002 at 36.

I know this.

But would a team actually let him do that, that's the question.

The triangle offense and playing with Mike helped utilize his abilities, how many teams are gonna take advantage of this?

Not too many.


And more importantly, let him be as successful and learn the game?

Having Mj on your team helped take pressure of a young Pip, but more importantly mature and grow as a player on various different aspects. If for some reason he does become a point forward for another team and another system, he wouldn't be able to handle the constant looks, doubles, etc.etc. so he wouldn't be able to really mature like he did as a Bull.

[97 bulls]

I know this.

But would a team actually let him do that, that's the question.

The triangle offense and playing with Mike helped utilize his abilities, how many teams are gonna take advantage of this?

Not too many.


And more importantly, let him be as successful and learn the game?

Having Mj on your team helped take pressure of a young Pip, but more importantly mature and grow as a player on various different aspects. If for some reason he does become a point forward for another team and another system, he wouldn't be able to handle the constant looks, doubles, etc.etc. so he wouldn't be able to really mature like he did as a Bull.well what was he drafted for? Certainly not cuz of his great scoring ability, or great athleticism according to some guys in the thread.

[Smoke117]

I know this.

But would a team actually let him do that, that's the question.

The triangle offense and playing with Mike helped utilize his abilities, how many teams are gonna take advantage of this?

Not too many.

Not really. If anything the triangle offense limited his abilities. It was a slow, precision over opportunity offense and with his abilities especially in the open court he would have been better utilized in an up tempo system.

And why wouldn't they let him be a PG...if that's what he's good at then that's what you want him to do. Pippen is the closest player at that size to Magic Johnson: a pass first, team oriented, talented, High basketball IQ 6'7" player. He didn't just become initiator of the triangle offense because he was the best player after Jordan...he was put into that role because his skills fit into what the role called for...exceeded really as he had the skills to run a team as a ball dominant pg in general.

I'm not sure why people find it hard to believe that a player has to go through some growing pains. Not everybody comes into the league a star. Pippen had the talent and skills but it took awhile for him build confidence and grow comfortable in his 6'7" lengthy body as he was still doing. If he was never traded who is to say that someone on the Sonic's wouldn't have taken him under their wing and helped him grow and develop confidence? Who is to say he wouldn't have developed on his own natural course? Moses Malone took Barkley under his wing and helped him develop his work ethic...did he now "make" Charles what he was? Michael Jordan did not have a controller he used to control ever movement and play Pippen made...that was all Scottie on the court.

[andgar923]

well what was he drafted for? Certainly not cuz of his great scoring ability, or great athleticism according to some guys in the thread.

Beacause as we all know he was playing the point forward from day 1, or 2nd season, or 3rd seaon or 4th season.

He wasn't.

And some of ya'll are making it seem as if he was destined or eventually be a hall of famer, when he was an unknown for basically his entire collegiate career, and then he struggled in the NBA.

All of you are basically basing your assumptions on 'hindsight' which is easy to do, but fail to realize that YES Pip struggled and he wasn't a point forward for any significant time for basically his first 4 years.

And as far as other teams drafting him, who was gonna draft him? most scouts hadn't even heard of him. Again... playing with MJ takes tons of away pressure, specially handling the ball and running an offense, it's as easy as "just give Mj the ball" for the most part.

Again... in hindsight some of you can say "but whatabout the 94 season" well..... Pip wouldn't have gotten to that point without MJ, plain and simple.

Without MJ Pip is having a hard time even seeing an all star team, let alone a top 50 spot.

[necya]

and they call that a specialist, someone who knows basketball ? :oldlol:

[DCL]

i stopped reading at "bayless says..."

[magnax1]

In a certain way, he's right. In that, he wouldn't have gotten the recognition, not that he wouldn't have been deserving. He wouldn't have won a single championship in all likelyhood, and probably would've had a similar career arc to a guy like Glen Rice (in terms of winning)
And really, he's borderline top 50 anyway. People saying he's top 25, really are just looking at his team record. He's not better then Guys like Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Clyde Drexler, etc. who I don't see people put top 25 really.... ever

[97 bulls]

Beacause as we all know he was playing the point forward from day 1, or 2nd season, or 3rd seaon or 4th season.

He wasn't.

And some of ya'll are making it seem as if he was destined or eventually be a hall of famer, when he was an unknown for basically his entire collegiate career, and then he struggled in the NBA.

All of you are basically basing your assumptions on 'hindsight' which is easy to do, but fail to realize that YES Pip struggled and he wasn't a point forward for any significant time for basically his first 4 years.

And as far as other teams drafting him, who was gonna draft him? most scouts hadn't even heard of him. Again... playing with MJ takes tons of away pressure, specially handling the ball and running an offense, it's as easy as "just give Mj the ball" for the most part.

Again... in hindsight some of you can say "but whatabout the 94 season" well..... Pip wouldn't have gotten to that point without MJ, plain and simple.

Without MJ Pip is having a hard time even seeing an all star team, let alone a top 50 spot.
He was a top 5 pick in the nba draft. That's saying something. And like I said before. I do give some credit to pippens development to jordan. But not the all the credit.

But the bottom line is pippen was a top draft pick out of college. So the talent was there. Jordan didn't put a ball in his hands. I can't even say jordan taught him how to be determined. Cuz pippen being able to go from meager beginings to a top 5 nba draft pick is far more impressive than him going from a top 5 to hofer. Jordan gave him nothing.

[97 bulls]

In a certain way, he's right. In that, he wouldn't have gotten the recognition, not that he wouldn't have been deserving. He wouldn't have won a single championship in all likelyhood, and probably would've had a similar career arc to a guy like Glen Rice (in terms of winning)
And really, he's borderline top 50 anyway. People saying he's top 25, really are just looking at his team record. He's not better then Guys like Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Clyde Drexler, etc. who I don't see people put top 25 really.... ever
Lol he was an integral part of those wins. But what would you have expected from him in his 2 seasons as the man. What was he missing that would've satisfied you? Cuz in my opinion, he dominated those two seasons more than the players you named.

[andgar923]

He was a top 5 pick in the nba draft. That's saying something. And like I said before. I do give some credit to pippens development to jordan. But not the all the credit.

But the bottom line is pippen was a top draft pick out of college. So the talent was there. Jordan didn't put a ball in his hands. I can't even say jordan taught him how to be determined. Cuz pippen being able to go from meager beginings to a top 5 nba draft pick is far more impressive than him going from a top 5 to hofer. Jordan gave him nothing.

I don't put too much stock in Pip being top 5 draft pick, since there's tons of top draft picks that turn out to be failures. Just look at Pip's rookie year, and his second year. Although he gradually improved, he wasn't playing at a top 5 level until his 4th season or so, and this was before the early college departure era.

Again... of course he was 'skilled' but again, like I mentioned, there's tons of skilled players. And again, while MJ didn't show him how to dribble a ball (as some of you insist on inferring), he did teach him the other aspects that turn a skilled player into an all star, an all star into a champion, a champion into a hall of famer.

Without MJ Pip is NOT a hall of famer, plain and simple.

[Smoke117]

I don't put too much stock in Pip being top 5 draft pick, since there's tons of top draft picks that turn out to be failures. Just look at Pip's rookie year, and his second year. Although he gradually improved, he wasn't playing at a top 5 level until his 4th season or so, and this was before the early college departure era.

Again... of course he was 'skilled' but again, like I mentioned, there's tons of skilled players. And again, while MJ didn't show him how to dribble a ball (as some of you insist on inferring), he did teach him the other aspects that turn a skilled player into an all star, an all star into a champion, a champion into a hall of famer.

Without MJ Pip is NOT a hall of famer, plain and simple.

So you say, but that is an opinion you are making not an fact. You can state it anyway you want, but it's just an opinion, not some fact as much as you wish to believe.

[Teanett]

So you say, but that is an opinion you are making not an fact. You can state it anyway you want, but it's just an opinion, not some fact as much as you wish to believe.

true and opinions are like assholes.
some just stink and some you wanna fukk.

[Boston C's]

I loved pippen but he def wouldnt be a top 50 player without M.J... no titles or recognition means no legacy for pippen, its only speculation but to me I just dont think pippen had enough talent to get multiple championships as the man

[andgar923]

So you say, but that is an opinion you are making not an fact. You can state it anyway you want, but it's just an opinion, not some fact as much as you wish to believe.

And it's also your opinion if you believe that without MJ he would be a hall of famer.

[97 bulls]

Ok. I get it. Pippen from his rookie season to his last game, should've scored 30 per, won every game he played in, won every award etc etc. You guys are fuggn dumb.

And mark my words. The best way to expose someone is to show them contradicting themselves. And I guarantee you guys, that are sayn stupis shit like jordan made pip cuz pippen didn't score 20 avg 8 rbds, and 7 assists with great defense as a rookie. Win a championship with a mediocer team. And basically achiever a lifes worth of work in 1 year are gonna say something that flies right in the face of these statements.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think Scottie had the talent to be what he became, but playing with Mj pushing him hard and the spotlight on the Bulls helped Scottie become known as a top 50
Yeah...

That and the fact that he was the second best player on a team that won six titles, which would have certainly not been the case had he played with anyone other than Jordan. I have a massive amount of respect for Pippen and he was a great, versatile player that really opened the door for a new breed of SF that now has taken over the league...

But, without the titles, he would not be considered Top 50 and without Jordan, there is no way that he gets six.

So, technically, I think Bayless is correct. Although, the reasoning that I use has nothing to do with discrediting him as a player... Just an objective look at the situation.

[andgar923]

Ok. I get it. Pippen from his rookie season to his last game, should've scored 30 per, won every game he played in, won every award etc etc. You guys are fuggn dumb.

And mark my words. The best way to expose someone is to show them contradicting themselves. And I guarantee you guys, that are sayn stupis shit like jordan made pip cuz pippen didn't score 20 avg 8 rbds, and 7 assists with great defense as a rookie. Win a championship with a mediocer team. And basically achiever a lifes worth of work in 1 year are gonna say something that flies right in the face of these statements.

This is all just silly.

[97 bulls]

Yeah...

That and the fact that he was the second best player on a team that won six titles, which would have certainly not been the case had he played with anyone other than Jordan. I have a massive amount of respect for Pippen and he was a great, versatile player that really opened the door for a new breed of SF that now has taken over the league...

But, without the titles, he would not be considered Top 50 and without Jordan, there is no way that he gets six.

So, technically, I think Bayless is correct. Although, the reasoning that I use has nothing to do with discrediting him as a player... Just an objective look at the situation.
Ok and from that standpoint its true. Strip scottie of his 6 championships and he's just a very talented basketball player. I still think he's easily in the top 50 though. Based on 94-95. Let's say he has 8-12 seasons similar to those two. How could you not have him top 50? I mean, think about what your saying. 22/9/7 with great defense and high efficiency isn't top 50 worthy?

And then look at the double standard. Why is scottie pippen the only player that has to be handicapped like this? Take away his accomplishments and he's just a good player. Well who could you not say that about? If jordan doesn't get his ass beat by his brother, get cut from his high school team, attend one of the greatets colleges in the world,
And learn the game from coaches like dean smith, bob knight, practice against james worthy, then scottie pippen, and have phil jackson teach him how to be a team player, does he still assume the goat ranking?

You can do this for every player. How bout magic? Take away kareem, cooper, nixson, macadoo, scott, and worthy, and pat riley does he still win rings and mvps? Hell just take him out of the laker organization. Does he?

Does bill russel still win all those championships and mvps without the hall of fame support he had and red auerbach?

Nobody stands alone.

And I still can't believe that you guys are trying to compare guys that have had 10 years to attain personal accompplishments as the man to a guy that had one and a half. How does this begin to make sense?

[97 bulls]

This is all just silly.
I can already call you out on one thing. You knock pippen cuz he didn't win a championship in 94 or 95 but excuse jordan by saying he didn't have a good enough team. That isn't talking out of both sides of your mouth?

[andgar923]

I can already call you out on one thing. You knock pippen cuz he didn't win a championship in 94 or 95 but excuse jordan by saying he didn't have a good enough team. That isn't talking out of both sides of your mouth?

I didn't knock him for not winning a ring in 94 or 95, when did I state this... please provide a quote.

My main argument is simple:

Pippen doesn't become the player we know and respect without MJ. As evidence to show my claim, I point to his early years.

What do the early years mean?

It serves as evidence that Pip wasn't a hall of fame player and it was only under MJ's tutelage that he got to that point.

This seems to correspond with the various testaments from coaches, teammates, opponents and even Pip himself!

The videos don't lie, and neither do the stats.

[Jacks3]

Pippen would have easily been top 50 without Jordan.

[Micku]

His 94 season with him still going strong without Jordan shows that he is top 50 player material. However, without Jordan, he wouldn't get the media hype.

Without Pippen playing with Jordan at all then D.Wilkins may have been consider better than him and you could argue Alex English by the media, but it depends on Pippen's team success.

[97 bulls]

I didn't knock him for not winning a ring in 94 or 95, when did I state this... please provide a quote.

My main argument is simple:

Pippen doesn't become the player we know and respect without MJ. As evidence to show my claim, I point to his early years.

What do the early years mean?

It serves as evidence that Pip wasn't a hall of fame player and it was only under MJ's tutelage that he got to that point.

This seems to correspond with the various testaments from coaches, teammates, opponents and even Pip himself!

The videos don't lie, and neither do the stats.
Lol so how many players have hit the ground running as a rookie or second year player to the point that they're a hall of famer?

[97 bulls]

Is jordan the goat without pippen?

[andgar923]

Lol so how many players have hit the ground running as a rookie or second year player to the point that they're a hall of famer?

I honestly don't understand this.. LOL.

Care to word if differently?

[97 bulls]

His 94 season with him still going strong without Jordan shows that he is top 50 player material. However, without Jordan, he wouldn't get the media hype.

Without Pippen playing with Jordan at all then D.Wilkins may have been consider better than him and you could argue Alex English by the media, but it depends on Pippen's team success.
Yeah we will never know what pippen does outside of jordans shadow. But 94 and 95 was a strong indication that he was held back.

[andgar923]

Is jordan the goat without pippen?

Possibly.

Some were already considering MJ the best before he won a ring, his rings just cemented his place and distanced him from others.

I think he could've won with a different player, maybe not 6 titles, but possibly 2.

We also don't know how much pressure his body could've handled. The triangle was partially implemented to keep MJ from being doubled and tripled teamed. I am sure that his individual stats would be even crazier (to a certain point of his career) if Pip wasn't his teammate. Pip did make it possible for MJ's career to last longer by taking some of the pressure off him on both sides of the court.

Who knows how MJ's career would end up. We do however know that MJ was already considered one of the best ever, before Pip arrived and before Pip developed as a player.

[97 bulls]

I honestly don't understand this.. LOL.

Care to word if differently?
How many players are hall of fame caliber after 3 years? As an example, If rose who does an mvp doesn't play another game in the nbs, is he going to the hall of fame?

[andgar923]

Yeah we will never know what pippen does outside of jordans shadow. But 94 and 95 was a strong indication that he was held back.
Again.

For the zillionth time, that year doesn't happen without MJ.

'B' doesn't happen without 'A'.

In order for 'B' to happen, 'A' had to exist and in this case, it's all the work and time that MJ spent with Pip.

[Ne 1]

People still believe this myth that Jordan "made" Pippen?

Scottie was a top 5 pick, and highly sought after talent (Chicago traded to get him from Seattle). He had his playmaking/ball handling skills from playing PG as a teen, and he was already touted as a great defensive player coming out of college (averaged 3+ steals). He improved dramatically EVERY year he was in college, which shows his tremendous work ethic before he even met Mike (went from a team manager to a college star in like 4-5 years).

He sure as hell wasn't just some dime a dozen scrub who showed up in the NBA one day and Jordan decided to use his midas touch to make him a star. I'm sure if Jordan had this mythical ability then he would have taken everyone under his wing and made something of them. By Pippen's rookie year, announcers around the league were already projecting him to be a superstar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M) By his second year he had improved into a solid second option and by his third he was an All-Star and one of the best "#2s" in the entire league. Either Jordan was a godly teacher or maybe.....Pippen was just freaking talented. By the way, his improvement came at a time when Jordan wasn't even the vocal leader of the team (that came around '90 from Grant's account). They had a segment about this in the '91 Pistons series and oddly enough, Grant named Corzine as the one providing leadership to guys like Pippen and him in their first couple of years. Pippen was one of the most physically talented players of his era, was unnaturally skilled for a guy his size and was showing tons of flashes of greatness early on in his rookie year. I'd say he would not only be fine without Jordan but maybe even better off (gets a chance to develop faster without a teammate taking 30 shots a night, and maybe even win a ring on his own as he showed he was capable of leading a contending team in '94, because hey, we all know on ISH, 1 ring as the man > 6 as a #2). Jordan helped him sure but lets quit the outrageous "Jordan made Pippen" bull shit.

[Jacks3]

People still believe this myth that Jordan "made" Pippen?

Scottie was a top 5 pick, and highly sought after talent (Chicago traded to get him from Seattle). He had his playmaking/ball handling skills from playing PG as a teen, and he was already touted as a great defensive player coming out of college (averaged 3+ steals). He improved dramatically EVERY year he was in college, which shows his tremendous work ethic before he even met Mike (went from a team manager to a college star in like 4-5 years).

He sure as hell wasn't just some dime a dozen scrub who showed up in the NBA one day and Jordan decided to use his midas touch to make him a star. I'm sure if Jordan had this mythical ability then he would have taken everyone under his wing and made something of them. By Pippen's rookie year, announcers around the league were already projecting him to be a superstar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M) By his second year he had improved into a solid second option and by his third he was an All-Star and one of the best "#2s" in the entire league. Either Jordan was a godly teacher or maybe.....Pippen was just freaking talented. By the way, his improvement came at a time when Jordan wasn't even the vocal leader of the team (that came around '90 from Grant's account). They had a segment about this in the '91 Pistons series and oddly enough, Grant named Corzine as the one providing leadership to guys like Pippen and him in their first couple of years. Pippen was one of the most physically talented players of his era, was unnaturally skilled for a guy his size and was showing tons of flashes of greatness early on in his rookie year. I'd say he would not only be fine without Jordan but maybe even better off (gets a chance to develop faster without a teammate taking 30 shots a night, and maybe even win a ring on his own as he showed he was capable of leading a contending team in '94, because hey, we all know on ISH, 1 ring as the man > 6 as a #2). Jordan helped him sure but lets quit the outrageous "Jordan made Pippen" bull shit.
Ne 1 continues to destroy the ridiculous Jordan stans. :bowdown:

[97 bulls]

Possibly.

Some were already considering MJ the best before he won a ring, his rings just cemented his place and distanced him from others.

I think he could've won with a different player, maybe not 6 titles, but possibly 2.

We also don't know how much pressure his body could've handled. The triangle was partially implemented to keep MJ from being doubled and tripled teamed. I am sure that his individual stats would be even crazier (to a certain point of his career) if Pip wasn't his teammate. Pip did make it possible for MJ's career to last longer by taking some of the pressure off him on both sides of the court.

Who knows how MJ's career would end up. We do however know that MJ was already considered one of the best ever, before Pip arrived and before Pip developed as a player.

See the double standard? Why does jordan get another player to replace pippen? What if pippen teams up with another great? He probably doesnt win 6 championships but he does win. Jordan had what 3 years before pippen showed up. And he was regarded as a great talent. But not the goat or even in the convo. He was considered a ball hog. A player that could never win a championship cuz he wasn't a team player.

[97 bulls]

Again.

For the zillionth time, that year doesn't happen without MJ.

'B' doesn't happen without 'A'.

In order for 'B' to happen, 'A' had to exist and in this case, it's all the work and time that MJ spent with Pip.
B

That wasn't very hard

[andgar923]

How many players are hall of fame caliber after 3 years? As an example, If rose who does an mvp doesn't play another game in the nbs, is he going to the hall of fame?

Gotcha.

Not sure if you gave a good example tho.

Rose was a rookie of the year and had has had great seasons thereafter. He wasn't a struggling rookie benchwarmer his first season and part of his second one. He also wasn't the second fiddle to the arguably the most dominant player of that era either.

Now... I'm sure there might be some examples that can fit your argument, but I'm also sure that some will argue that other players deserve to be in their spot.

Again... take away MJ from Pippen's career completely.

Have a shy, weak minded, Pippen join a different team, he doesn't face MJ ever day in practice. He doesn't work out with MJ during the off season. He doesn't have MJ to work with him and push him before and after practice. He doesn't have MJ to toughen him up and get his back. He doesn't have MJ to learn from. He doesn't have MJ to draw all the defensive attention along with take all the pressure away. He doesn't have MJ to help him on the defensive end.

All of this shit adds up and eventually molds Pip into the player that allows him to lead in 94 (and thereafter).

Without those experiences Pip doesn't become the Pip we know and respect.

Are we to assume that Mitch Richmond or Reggie Theus have the same impact on Pip that Mj did?

[97 bulls]

People still believe this myth that Jordan "made" Pippen?

Scottie was a top 5 pick, and highly sought after talent (Chicago traded to get him from Seattle). He had his playmaking/ball handling skills from playing PG as a teen, and he was already touted as a great defensive player coming out of college (averaged 3+ steals). He improved dramatically EVERY year he was in college, which shows his tremendous work ethic before he even met Mike (went from a team manager to a college star in like 4-5 years).

He sure as hell wasn't just some dime a dozen scrub who showed up in the NBA one day and Jordan decided to use his midas touch to make him a star. I'm sure if Jordan had this mythical ability then he would have taken everyone under his wing and made something of them. By Pippen's rookie year, announcers around the league were already projecting him to be a superstar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M) By his second year he had improved into a solid second option and by his third he was an All-Star and one of the best "#2s" in the entire league. Either Jordan was a godly teacher or maybe.....Pippen was just freaking talented. By the way, his improvement came at a time when Jordan wasn't even the vocal leader of the team (that came around '90 from Grant's account). They had a segment about this in the '91 Pistons series and oddly enough, Grant named Corzine as the one providing leadership to guys like Pippen and him in their first couple of years. Pippen was one of the most physically talented players of his era, was unnaturally skilled for a guy his size and was showing tons of flashes of greatness early on in his rookie year. I'd say he would not only be fine without Jordan but maybe even better off (gets a chance to develop faster without a teammate taking 30 shots a night, and maybe even win a ring on his own as he showed he was capable of leading a contending team in '94, because hey, we all know on ISH, 1 ring as the man > 6 as a #2). Jordan helped him sure but lets quit the outrageous "Jordan made Pippen" bull shit.
Thread/

[colts19]

Is jordan the goat without pippen?

Not only is he not goat, he doesn't have 6 rings and is D Wilkins. Put Scottie on those atlanta teams with D Wilkins and how many titles do they win.

[andgar923]

See the double standard? Why does jordan get another player to replace pippen? What if pippen teams up with another great? He probably doesnt win 6 championships but he does win. Jordan had what 3 years before pippen showed up. And he was regarded as a great talent. But not the goat or even in the convo. He was considered a ball hog. A player that could never win a championship cuz he wasn't a team player.

MJ was already great.

Pip wasn't.

Name another player that could've willed Pip to be great?

[Micku]

Yeah we will never know what pippen does outside of jordans shadow. But 94 and 95 was a strong indication that he was held back.

I don't think he was held back as much as underestimated and under appreciated back then.

But the biggest underestimation was the team of the Bulls. They were a really good team without Jordan. Pippen and Grant (and the roleplayers) went into their prime years around 92, which is why they were the Bulls were so good, and Pippen hit his peak without Jordan.

Grant also got better defensive, and he was an important factor as well.

But we would never know what would Pippen be without Jordan. Who knows for sure, but like you said, the 94 season is the indication that he would a top 50 players.

But to be fair, Alex English and D.Wilkins also had great seasons where they were either a dark horse or contenders for the NBA championship, but then they didn't have a lot of good years with team success even though they have great individual play. If Pippen would've went on the road like those guys, then he may either been on the lower top 50 players or the media just would not know him.

[andgar923]

So are we suppose to ignore FACTS now?

Again.....

Coaches, players, reporters, Pip have all stated that MJ made Pip into the player he became.

Ya'll can keep dancing around that FACT all ya'll want, but that's what happened.

[Ne 1]

Name another player that could've willed Pip to be great?

Dave Corzine was actually the one helping the development of Pippen and Grant early in their NBA careers, not Jordan.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Gotcha.

Not sure if you gave a good example tho.

Rose was a rookie of the year and had has had great seasons thereafter. He wasn't a struggling rookie benchwarmer his first season and part of his second one. He also wasn't the second fiddle to the arguably the most dominant player of that era either.

Now... I'm sure there might be some examples that can fit your argument, but I'm also sure that some will argue that other players deserve to be in their spot.

Again... take away MJ from Pippen's career completely.

Have a shy, weak minded, Pippen join a different team, he doesn't face MJ ever day in practice. He doesn't work out with MJ during the off season. He doesn't have MJ to work with him and push him before and after practice. He doesn't have MJ to toughen him up and get his back. He doesn't have MJ to learn from. He doesn't have MJ to draw all the defensive attention along with take all the pressure away. He doesn't have MJ to help him on the defensive end.

All of this shit adds up and eventually molds Pip into the player that allows him to lead in 94 (and thereafter).

Without those experiences Pip doesn't become the Pip we know and respect.

Are we to assume that Mitch Richmond or Reggie Theus have the same impact on Pip that Mj did?
Flip "Game Over"

[Sarcastic]

He is a career 16 ppg scorer with outstanding defense. I don't know if that gets you into top 50 without 6 rings.

Yea, he owes Jordan his soul.

[Ne 1]

So are we suppose to ignore FACTS now?

Again.....

Coaches, players, reporters, Pip have all stated that MJ made Pip into the player he became.

Ya'll can keep dancing around that FACT all ya'll want, but that's what happened.

Pippen became a better player in some degree because of Jordan (Pippen has said so himself that Jordan helped him become a better player), but to say that Pippen is the player he was simply because of Jordan's Midas touch is silly. Jordan has also said himself that he became a better player because of Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Gotcha.

Not sure if you gave a good example tho.

Rose was a rookie of the year and had has had great seasons thereafter. He wasn't a struggling rookie benchwarmer his first season and part of his second one. He also wasn't the second fiddle to the arguably the most dominant player of that era either.

Now... I'm sure there might be some examples that can fit your argument, but I'm also sure that some will argue that other players deserve to be in their spot.

Again... take away MJ from Pippen's career completely.

Have a shy, weak minded, Pippen join a different team, he doesn't face MJ ever day in practice. He doesn't work out with MJ during the off season. He doesn't have MJ to work with him and push him before and after practice. He doesn't have MJ to toughen him up and get his back. He doesn't have MJ to learn from. He doesn't have MJ to draw all the defensive attention along with take all the pressure away. He doesn't have MJ to help him on the defensive end.

All of this shit adds up and eventually molds Pip into the player that allows him to lead in 94 (and thereafter).

Without those experiences Pip doesn't become the Pip we know and respect.

Are we to assume that Mitch Richmond or Reggie Theus have the same impact on Pip that Mj did?
Rose is a perfect example. My point was that 3 years doesn't make a career. Unless its of an amzing magnitude. Or an untimely death in petrovic case. Even with roses mvp and roy I think we both agree he's on his way to having a hall of fame career but he's not a hofer yet.

And I understand the rest of you post. But like I said earlier. But who stands alone like that? I mean, your asking alot from a 22 year old kid from a small town. How do you know he doesn't eventually evolve like most men do?

I honestly think pippen taught jordan how to be a team player and not have to rule with an iron fist. They were co-leaders. A fire and ice kinda thing.

And I still never got a response to my other post. Take away jabaar, copper, scott, worthy, wilkes, mcadoo etc from magic. Take him off the lakers. Is he still the magic we all became accustomed to seeing?

How bout bill russel? Take away the multitude of hof players he played with. Is he still russel?

What if jordan didn't get that fire in his belly due to him loosing to his brother on a daily basis and getting cut from the team? What if he didn't go to one of the most prestigious basketball collegse and learn the game from dean smith? And practice on a daily basis with the best college player at the time in james worthy. What if phil jackson doesn't instill the trangle and preach the team game? What if pippen doesn't evolve into the player he became? He could've easily folded under the scrutiny and the constant beating he took from jordan and the pistons?

What if?

[97 bulls]

He is a career 16 ppg scorer with outstanding defense. I don't know if that gets you into top 50 without 6 rings.

Yea, he owes Jordan his soul.
Kareem jabbar is regarded as the best scorer by many. But his career scoring avg is only like 24 ppg. Dwade is at 25 is he a better scorer than jabaar. Or did longevity kick in and reduce his per game scoring avg?

[97 bulls]

Dave Corzine was actually the one helping the development of Pippen and Grant early in their NBA careers, not Jordan.
Lol

[Ne 1]

Rose is a perfect example. My point was that 3 years doesn't make a career. Unless its of an amzing magnitude. Or an untimely death in petrovic case. Even with roses mvp and roy I think we both agree he's on his way to having a hall of fame career but he's not a hofer yet.

And I understand the rest of you post. But like I said earlier. But who stands alone like that? I mean, your asking alot from a 22 year old kid from a small town. How do you know he doesn't eventually evolve like most men do?

I honestly think pippen taught jordan how to be a team player and not have to rule with an iron fist. They were co-leaders. A fire and ice kinda thing.

And I still never got a response to my other post. Take away jabaar, copper, scott, worthy, wilkes, mcadoo etc from magic. Take him off the lakers. Is he still the magic we all became accustomed to seeing?

How bout bill russel? Take away the multitude of hof players he played with. Is he still russel?

What if jordan didn't get that fire in his belly due to him loosing to his brother on a daily basis and getting cut from the team? What if he didn't go to one of the most prestigious basketball collegse and learn the game from dean smith? And practice on a daily basis with the best college player at the time in james worthy. What if phil jackson doesn't instill the trangle and preach the team game? What if pippen doesn't evolve into the player he became? He could've easily folded under the scrutiny and the constant beating he took from jordan and the pistons?

What if?

The Chicago Tribune's Sam Smith covered Pippen's entire career with the Bulls. In his recent column about Pippen's place in basketball history, Smith wrote:

"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special," longtime Bulls assistant Tex Winter said. "Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he [Scottie] helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."


http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2005/12/scottie-pippens-place-in-basketball.html

Jordan even said he "prayed" for someone like Scottie to come to Chicago.

[andgar923]

Rose is a perfect example. My point was that 3 years doesn't make a career. Unless its of an amzing magnitude. Or an untimely death in petrovic case. Even with roses mvp and roy I think we both agree he's on his way to having a hall of fame career but he's not a hofer yet.

And I understand the rest of you post. But like I said earlier. But who stands alone like that? I mean, your asking alot from a 22 year old kid from a small town. How do you know he doesn't eventually evolve like most men do?

I honestly think pippen taught jordan how to be a team player and not have to rule with an iron fist. They were co-leaders. A fire and ice kinda thing.

And I still never got a response to my other post. Take away jabaar, copper, scott, worthy, wilkes, mcadoo etc from magic. Take him off the lakers. Is he still the magic we all became accustomed to seeing?

How bout bill russel? Take away the multitude of hof players he played with. Is he still russel?

What if jordan didn't get that fire in his belly due to him loosing to his brother on a daily basis and getting cut from the team? What if he didn't go to one of the most prestigious basketball collegse and learn the game from dean smith? And practice on a daily basis with the best college player at the time in james worthy. What if phil jackson doesn't instill the trangle and preach the team game? What if pippen doesn't evolve into the player he became? He could've easily folded under the scrutiny and the constant beating he took from jordan and the pistons?

What if?
I'll make it even easier.

Who in the league at that time had MJ's desire, and determination to prove to his critics that he couldn't make others better?

Who was good enough to carry their team until they could help him lead?

Charles? lazy fat f*ck
Ewing? he didn't help anybody
Mitch?

Perhaps maybe Magic, but how will Magic help him on the defensive end?

Bird? who knows.

But none of the other stars (not named Bird and Magic) would've done what MJ did.

MJ took it as a challenge to make Pip into a great player, and that's exactly what he set out to do. And we all know how MJ reacts to challenges, real or perceived.

[Sarcastic]

Kareem jabbar is regarded as the best scorer by many. But his career scoring avg is only like 24 ppg. Dwade is at 25 is he a better scorer than jabaar. Or did longevity kick in and reduce his per game scoring avg?

#1. There is a huge difference between 16 and 24 ppg. 16 is for role players. 24 is for stars.

#2. If you don't understand how prolific a scorer Lew Alcindor was, then it is useless arguing with you. He was able to maintain that average over 20 years.

[Smoke117]

Flip "Game Over"

Couldn't help yourself eh Swoosh? Anything to glorify Jordan right?

[97 bulls]

I'll make it even easier.

Who in the league at that time had MJ's desire, and determination to prove to his critics that he couldn't make others better?
where did he get that drive and determination? I've asked this like 6 times and yet I conveniently get no response
Who was good enough to carry their team until they could help him lead?

Charles? lazy fat f*ck
Ewing? he didn't help anybody
Mitch?

Perhaps maybe Magic, but how will Magic help him on the defensive end?

Bird? who knows.

But none of the other stars (not named Bird and Magic) would've done what MJ did.

MJ took it as a challenge to make Pip into a great player, and that's exactly what he set out to do. And we all know how MJ reacts to challenges, real or perceived.
As far as the rest of your post are you asking who could've helped jordan or pippen?

And why not respond to ne1s posts? He's showing coaches, players etc that are saying how great pip was.

[Smoke117]

As far as the rest of your post are you asking who could've helped jordan or pippen?

And why not respond to ne1s posts? He's showing coaches, players etc that are saying how great pip was.

ne1 shut down anything he had to say a page ago, he doesn't want any part of that. lol

[Jacks3]

ne1 shut down anything he had to say a page ago, he doesn't want any part of that. lol
:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

#1. There is a huge difference between 16 and 24 ppg. 16 is for role players. 24 is for stars.

#2. If you don't understand how prolific a scorer Lew Alcindor was, then it is useless arguing with you. He was able to maintain that average over 20 years.
Im not comparing jabaars scoring to pippen. Im trying to show you that you can't look at career avgs like that. Cuz age catches up to everybody. In pippens last year, he avg 4 ppg. But he was 38.

Besides, I was comparing jabaar to wade not pippen. And it was just an example. Nothing more

[andgar923]

As far as the rest of your post are you asking who could've helped jordan or pippen?

And why not respond to ne1s posts? He's showing coaches, players etc that are saying how great pip was.

I'm in the camp that believes drive and determination are attributes one is born with. Some believe that it's something one can obtain.

But in both cases, I do believe that something has to trigger it or help develop it. So whether or not Pip was born with it or he obtained it from MJ's constant push, MJ was clearly the biggest factor (not the only like some of you are making it seem).

As far as the rest of my post, I'm referring to PIppen.

If the Bulls don't draft him, who could've pushed Pip? Like I stated, MJ was set out to prove his detractors wrong. And we all know how MJ takes on challenges. I was asking who besides MJ had that drive to will a player to become great. Only ones I could come up with were Magic and Bird, but they made their teammates better by their play on the court more so than their influence away from the game itself. MJ was a combination of both, his on court (gametime) play and off the court (non game time).

In regards to Ne1.... whatabout all of the other quotes posted throughout the years?

Those are far more telling than those posted by Ne1, who he himself admits to MJ having a role in Pip's career. Why didn't you reply to those? I"m sure we can post dozens of them *if they haven't already*, there's been many posted throughout the years.

[Smoke117]

I'm in the camp that believes drive and determination are attributes one is born with. Some believe that it's something one can obtain.

But in both cases, I do believe that something has to trigger it or help develop it. So whether or not Pip was born with it or he obtained it from MJ's constant push, MJ was clearly the biggest factor (not the only like some of you are making it seem).

As far as the rest of my post, I'm referring to PIppen.

If the Bulls don't draft him, who could've pushed Pip? Like I stated, MJ was set out to prove his detractors wrong. And we all know how MJ takes on challenges. I was asking who besides MJ had that drive to will a player to become great. Only ones I could come up with were Magic and Bird, but they made their teammates better by their play on the court more so than their influence away from the game itself. MJ was a combination of both, his on court (gametime) play and off the court (non game time).

In regards to Ne1.... whatabout all of the other quotes posted throughout the years?

Those are far more telling than those posted by Ne1, who he himself admits to MJ having a role in Pip's career. Why didn't you reply to those? I"m sure we can post dozens of them *if they haven't already*, there's been many posted throughout the years.

Will a player to become great? :oldlol: Man you are almost as bad as Swoosh now as far as being a Jordan stan. Jordan willed Pippen to greatness...wow...:facepalm Wow...I guess Pippen came out of a factory with instructions for Jordan right?...I'm done with this thread...that was the last straw for me. I leave you fellas to it.

[andgar923]

Will a player to become great? :oldlol: Man you are almost as bad as Swoosh now as far as being a Jordan stan. Jordan willed Pippen to greatness...wow...:facepalm Wow...I guess Pippen came out of a factory with instructions for Jordan right?...I'm done with this thread...that was the last straw for me. I leave you fellas to it.

Good.

[Smoke117]

Attention all players that played during Jordan's career that weren't great: It wasn't your lack of talent, skill, basketball IQ, athleticism and work ethic that kept you from being great...it was not having Jordan there to WILL YOU TO GREATNESS. (couldn't help myself)

[Da_Realist]

People still believe this myth that Jordan "made" Pippen?

Scottie was a top 5 pick, and highly sought after talent (Chicago traded to get him from Seattle). He had his playmaking/ball handling skills from playing PG as a teen, and he was already touted as a great defensive player coming out of college (averaged 3+ steals). He improved dramatically EVERY year he was in college, which shows his tremendous work ethic before he even met Mike (went from a team manager to a college star in like 4-5 years).

He sure as hell wasn't just some dime a dozen scrub who showed up in the NBA one day and Jordan decided to use his midas touch to make him a star. I'm sure if Jordan had this mythical ability then he would have taken everyone under his wing and made something of them. By Pippen's rookie year, announcers around the league were already projecting him to be a superstar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M) By his second year he had improved into a solid second option and by his third he was an All-Star and one of the best "#2s" in the entire league. Either Jordan was a godly teacher or maybe.....Pippen was just freaking talented. By the way, his improvement came at a time when Jordan wasn't even the vocal leader of the team (that came around '90 from Grant's account). They had a segment about this in the '91 Pistons series and oddly enough, Grant named Corzine as the one providing leadership to guys like Pippen and him in their first couple of years. Pippen was one of the most physically talented players of his era, was unnaturally skilled for a guy his size and was showing tons of flashes of greatness early on in his rookie year. I'd say he would not only be fine without Jordan but maybe even better off (gets a chance to develop faster without a teammate taking 30 shots a night, and maybe even win a ring on his own as he showed he was capable of leading a contending team in '94, because hey, we all know on ISH, 1 ring as the man > 6 as a #2). Jordan helped him sure but lets quit the outrageous "Jordan made Pippen" bull shit.

Maybe. Or what Doug Collins said -- you know, their coach during this time...


From Playing For Keeps by David Halberstam pages 227-228

The Jordan-Pippen relationship was quite different, more like teacher-student. Jordan could see Pippen's raw talent, and he knew Pippen lacked all the advantages that he had enjoyed because of the richness of the Carolina program. He set out not only to work with Pippen on the most elemental drills but to teach him the sort of toughness the NBA demanded. (There was, though, one move Pippen could make that Jordan could not: If they both stood out of bounds under the basket holding the ball and leaped out on the court, Pippen, without ever touching the ground, could slam the ball through with his left hand, and Jordan could not. Johnny Bach thought it might be that Pippen's hands were slightly larger.)

The more Jordan sensed that Pippen was becoming serious, the more he was willing to invest in him. That took some time, because for a long time Jordan was not entirely sure of Pippen's toughness, nor of his heart, nor of the totality of his and Grant's commitment. They were teammates, bonded by their talents but not really friends, the social gap between them still very large. Jordan was innately confident in all aspects of his life, as confident off the floor as he was on it; Pippen was very tentative in so many ways, the stamp of Arkansas poverty still deep in him.

Ever so slowly, the two came around to each other: Jordan just a little wary about commiting himself to a player he was still unsure of, and Pippen gradually accepting Jordan as, if not teacher, then certainly role model. More and more frequently, Collins saw the two of them working with together after practice, working on their jumpshots, or Jordan working with Pippen on the most elemental of moves, such as how to break the double team or how to swing either way when pressed by the defense along the baseline. Years later, after watching Pippen's game improve incrementally year after year, even after the championship years, Collins realized that in some ways Michael Jordan, working with a player who had a degree of hunger and talent none of them fully appreciated, had virtually cloned himself. The player who came out on the floor alongside Jordan later in their careers might as well have been a product of Dean Smith's Carolina program.

Didn't see him say it was Dave Corzine working with Pippen during that time. What does being the team's "vocal leader" have to do with anything?

Jordan worked with Pippen on their jumpshots...the most elemental of moves such as how to break the double team or how to swing either way when pressed by the defense along the baseline...

This is what the coach said. In fact, TWO coaches say this -- Doug Collins and Johnny Bach. Why would they lie?

[dallaslonghorn]

Did someone give a list of 50 players better than Scottie Pippen earlier in the thread? I'd love to read it. :oldlol:

Seems like there are two separate arguments ... there are people saying that by playing with Jordan and winning six titles Pippen's been overrated, and that, if he were playing on a different team, he wouldn't be seen as a Top 50 player.

The obvious counter of course is 1994 ... when Pippen averaged 22/9/6 on 49% shooting while making first-team All-Defense.

Then there are people saying well Jordan was the one who coached him up and made him the player he was, and if they hadn't played on the same team he never would have reached his potential. Well ... ok. I'm pretty sure every top 50 player had someone in their past help them reach their potential; it doesn't change what they did on the court. No successful person reaches their goals without help from others.

[97 bulls]

Hey darealist. Was it you that's has that clipping of the gms that were surveyed in 95 as to who they choose to build a team around?

[Da_Realist]

Hey darealist. Was it you that's has that clipping of the gms that were surveyed in 95 as to who they choose to build a team around?

I don't think so... Unless it's buried in one of those games. I don't remember that, though.

[97 bulls]

Did someone give a list of 50 players better than Scottie Pippen earlier in the thread? I'd love to read it. :oldlol:

Seems like there are two separate arguments ... there are people saying that by playing with Jordan and winning six titles Pippen's been overrated, and that, if he were playing on a different team, he wouldn't be seen as a Top 50 player.

The obvious counter of course is 1994 ... when Pippen averaged 22/9/6 on 49% shooting while making first-team All-Defense.

Then there are people saying well Jordan was the one who coached him up and made him the player he was, and if they hadn't played on the same team he never would have reached his potential. Well ... ok. I'm pretty sure every top 50 player had someone in their past help them reach their potential; it doesn't change what they did on the court. No successful person reaches their goals without help from others.
This is all im saying.

[catch24]

While I do believe Pippen was overrated, I'd never say he wouldn't be a HoFer nor one of the greatest without Jordan. As much as he learned from Mike, after the first-retirement, he took it upon himself to become Chicago's best player/leader AND did a damn good job. No matter how you wanna slice it, 55 wins while putting up 24/9/6 is impressive.

[Da_Realist]

Then there are people saying well Jordan was the one who coached him up and made him the player he was, and if they hadn't played on the same team he never would have reached his potential. Well ... ok. I'm pretty sure every top 50 player had someone in their past help them reach their potential; it doesn't change what they did on the court. No successful person reaches their goals without help from others.

This is what I'm saying. But it needs to be pointed out that you can't use Pippen's success against Jordan when Jordan was so instrumental in his development. Pippen deserves all the praise but people using parts of his career as some black mark against Jordan is idiotic.

Phil Jackson is a great, great coach but he readily admits he learned how to coach under Red Holzman. His successes make Holzman look good. Phil *might* have been a great coach anyway, but we know for a fact Holzman molded his coaching philosophies. You can't write the book on Phil Jackson without including some sort of reference to Holzman. Same with Pippen and Jordan.

[97 bulls]

While I do believe Pippen was overrated, I'd never say he wouldn't be a HoFer nor one of the greatest without Jordan. As much as he learned from Mike, after the first-retirement, he took it upon himself to become Chicago's best player/leader AND did a damn good job. No matter how you wanna slice it, 55 wins while putting up 24/9/6 is impressive.
Me and catch actually agree. This thread should be locked right now. Except for the overrated part. But well get you there.

[andgar923]

Did someone give a list of 50 players better than Scottie Pippen earlier in the thread? I'd love to read it. :oldlol:

Seems like there are two separate arguments ... there are people saying that by playing with Jordan and winning six titles Pippen's been overrated, and that, if he were playing on a different team, he wouldn't be seen as a Top 50 player.

The obvious counter of course is 1994 ... when Pippen averaged 22/9/6 on 49% shooting while making first-team All-Defense.

Then there are people saying well Jordan was the one who coached him up and made him the player he was, and if they hadn't played on the same team he never would have reached his potential. Well ... ok. I'm pretty sure every top 50 player had someone in their past help them reach their potential; it doesn't change what they did on the court. No successful person reaches their goals without help from others.

The thing is, people are convinced that Pip would've been a top 50 player because he had ONE good season... yes, they appear to be basing this all on one season. At least it appears to be the case, since that's basically all they can muster.

My argument is simple.

Without MJ, Pippen doesn't become the player that he became to play the way he did that season (again... one season).

I already stated that Mj wasn't the sole reason, but def the biggest reason.

And I agree, that no successful person reaches their goals without the help of others.... tell that to those that keep believing Pip would've been a top 50 player without MJ.

Mj needed Pip to win, but he was already a great player.
Pip needed MJ to become a great player.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Mj needed Pip to win, but he was already a great player.
Pip needed MJ to become a great player.

:facepalm

you fail at basketball.

[dallaslonghorn]

The thing is, people are convinced that Pip would've been a top 50 player because he had ONE good season... yes, they appear to be basing this all on one season. At least it appears to be the case, since that's basically all they can muster.

My argument is simple.

Without MJ, Pippen doesn't become the player that he became to play the way he did that season (again... one season).

I already stated that Mj wasn't the sole reason, but def the biggest reason.

And I agree, that no successful person reaches their goals without the help of others.... tell that to those that keep believing Pip would've been a top 50 player without MJ.

Mj needed Pip to win, but he was already a great player.
Pip needed MJ to become a great player.

What else would people look at? That was the only season in the prime of his career that Pippen didn't play with MJ. In that season, Pippen showed he could be an elite player without MJ's presence on the court.

As to whether MJ developed Pippen into the player he became ... I don't know. Someone did. Just like Tim Duncan was helped by David Robison when he came in the league; just like Dirk was helped by Nash and Finley when he came into the league. Just because you had a mentor doesn't invalidate your accomplishments.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Did someone give a list of 50 players better than Scottie Pippen earlier in the thread? I'd love to read it. :oldlol:

.


scrubs like andgar and darealist refuse to name 50 players better then pippen because they know they CANT.

:hammerhead:

[andgar923]

What else would people look at? That was the only season in the prime of his career that Pippen didn't play with MJ. In that season, Pippen showed he could be an elite player without MJ's presence on the court.

As to whether MJ developed Pippen into the player he became ... I don't know. Someone did. Just like Tim Duncan was helped by David Robison when he came in the league; just like Dirk was helped by Nash and Finley when he came into the league. Just because you had a mentor doesn't invalidate your accomplishments.

And again..... without MJ ever being his teammate he doesn't get to that top 50 level season.

And I'm not invalidating Pip's accomplishments. Just bringing to light what basically the vast majority of the world already knows.

But if you want to bring up other players as an example we can go right ahead.

Unlike the players you mentioned, most went on and had hall of fame careers without their mentors.

Without Robinson, Duncan went out and became a hall of famer.
Without Finley and Nash, Dirk has gone out and had arguably a hall of fame career.

[Da_Realist]

As to whether MJ developed Pippen into the player he became ... I don't know. Someone did. Just like Tim Duncan was helped by David Robison when he came in the league; just like Dirk was helped by Nash and Finley when he came into the league. Just because you had a mentor doesn't invalidate your accomplishments.

Not exactly the same thing. Duncan was already a polished player coming into the NBA. Nash and Finley (???) couldn't possibly have helped Dirk work on any real aspects of his game because they all played so differently.

Pippen was raw coming into the league physically and mentally. Jordan worked with him on "the most elemental of moves". Basic stuff that most rookies had already learned. Stuff that good players today still don't know. Pippen could have been yesteryear's version of Lebron. Supremely talented and gifted player that does not understand the subtle nuances of the game, uses his physicality to impact the game and can't play off the ball. Pippen may not have become as technically sound defensively without Jordan pushing him (direct influence) and challenging him in practice everyday (indirect influence).

Let's say Pippen starts his career on with the Cavs with Lebron James as the team's best player. Is Pippen the same player?

[Da_Realist]

scrubs like andgar and darealist refuse to name 50 players better then pippen because they know they CANT.

:hammerhead:

Stop trying to start sh*t. I never said Pippen wasn't top 50. In fact, I said he WAS.

[dallaslonghorn]

And again..... without MJ ever being his teammate he doesn't get to that top 50 level season.

And I'm not invalidating Pip's accomplishments. Just bringing to light what basically the vast majority of the world already knows.

But if you want to bring up other players as an example we can go right ahead.

Unlike the players you mentioned, most went on and had hall of fame careers without their mentors.

Without Robinson, Duncan went out and became a hall of famer.
Without Finley and Nash, Dirk has gone out and had arguably a hall of fame career.

Were you expecting Pippen to have a Hall of Fame career after the age of 32?

And you're saying that Pippen needed MJ's leadership to become a great player, maybe he did. But no other player or coach could have mentored a young Pippen out of college? That seems a little hard to believe.

[97 bulls]

The thing is, people are convinced that Pip would've been a top 50 player because he had ONE good season... yes, they appear to be basing this all on one season. At least it appears to be the case, since that's basically all they can muster.
No, both pippens seasons were great. 22/9/6 on 49% shooting, and leading his team to 55 wins. And then, with virtually no support, held that atrocious bulls team to a 34-31 record and lead that team in every major category. Something that's only been done two other times. There been more players that have been able to score 35 ppg in a season. Think about that for a moment. To be honest. He did better with similar talent than just about any other all-time great I've ever seen.
My argument is simple.

Without MJ, Pippen doesn't become the player that he became to play the way he did that season (again... one season).

I already stated that Mj wasn't the sole reason, but def the biggest reason.

And I agree, that no successful person reaches their goals without the help of others.... tell that to those that keep believing Pip would've been a top 50 player without MJ.

Mj needed Pip to win, but he was already a great player.
Pip needed MJ to become a great player.
Your trying to make it seem like pippen had 4 mediocre seasons and one great one. He had 2 seasons and both were great. And don't forget. Pippen had the 95 bulls 2nd in defensive rating. And he was 1st individually. In a league full of great centers.

[dallaslonghorn]

Not exactly the same thing. Duncan was already a polished player coming into the NBA. Nash and Finley (???) couldn't possibly have helped Dirk work on any real aspects of his game because they all played so differently.

Pippen was raw coming into the league physically and mentally. Jordan worked with him on "the most elemental of moves". Basic stuff that most rookies had already learned. Stuff that good players today still don't know. Pippen could have been yesteryear's version of Lebron. Supremely talented and gifted player that does not understand the subtle nuances of the game, uses his physicality to impact the game and can't play off the ball. Pippen may not have become as technically sound defensively without Jordan pushing him (direct influence) and challenging him in practice everyday (indirect influence).

Let's say Pippen starts his career on with the Cavs with Lebron James as the team's best player. Is Pippen the same player?

You're saying that Jordan taught Pippen "basic stuff that most rookies had already learned." Which means that someone else could have taught him the same stuff. I find it hard to believe that Jordan was the ONLY person in the NBA who knew how to develop talent from 1987-1990. What exactly do you think most NBA coaches get paid to do?

[Da_Realist]

You're saying that Jordan taught Pippen "basic stuff that most rookies had already learned." Which means that someone else could have taught him the same stuff. I find it hard to believe that Jordan was the ONLY person in the NBA who knew how to develop talent from 1987-1990. What exactly do you think most NBA coaches get paid to do?

We're not talking about who else *could* have done it. We don't know. The fact is Jordan *did* help him in that way. We also know that Pippen would have been a different player if he didn't play with Jordan. Not saying better or worse (although, it would have been hard for Pippen to be much better than he was).

[dallaslonghorn]

We're not talking about who else *could* have done it. We don't know. The fact is Jordan *did* help him in that way. We also know that Pippen would have been a different player if he didn't play with Jordan. Not saying better or worse (although, it would have been hard for Pippen to be much better than he was).

Fair enough. Doesn't seem like much of a criticism then. By that logic, Jordan needed to develop his game out of high school. Dean Smith helped him do that. Therefore, Jordan wouldn't have been the same player without Dean Smith. So what?

[Da_Realist]

Fair enough. Doesn't seem like much of a criticism then. By that logic, Jordan needed to develop his game out of high school. Dean Smith helped him do that. Therefore, Jordan wouldn't have been the same player without Dean Smith. So what?

Agreed. I used this example a few pages back. Now wouldn't it be silly for someone to say Jordan would have been great without that program? We don't know, but it sure as hell would have been hard for Syracuse or Indiana to train him much better than North Carolina did, right?

[97 bulls]

Agreed. I used this example a few pages back. Now wouldn't it be silly for someone to say Jordan would have been great without that program? We don't know, but it sure as hell would have been hard for Syracuse or Indiana to train him much better than North Carolina did, right?
But people aren't using this example to tear down jordan. People arent saying dean smith made jordan. Or without smith jordan wouldnt be the goat. Like dallaslonghorn said. Everybody has had help. Why hold it against pippen?

[Da_Realist]

But people aren't using this example to tear down jordan. People arent saying dean smith made jordan. Or without smith MJwouldnt be the goat. Like dallaslonghorn said. Everybody has had help. Why hold it against pippen?

Well, I believe it. I don't think Jordan's the consensus GOAT without Dean Smith's Carolina program. I've read a lot of stuff on MJand know how much that program prepared him. Dean Smith and his assistants taught MJto be humble and respect the game by always looking to improve. The secret to Jordan's success. Name another player that physically gifted that was also one of the best practice players the league has ever seen. You won't find one. Note, I didn't say MJwas a humble guy, I said he was humble about the game enough to always improve. This is the very opposite Lebron James, a nicer and more humble guy but woefully more arrogant about his game.

There were 3 or 4 different versions of MJduring his career. That didn't happen by accident. He worked and he worked hard. He got his work ethic from his parents and he got his competitiveness from his brother, but Dean Smith's program molded that raw material into something special. MJ couldn't get on SI's front page as a starter because Dean Smith didn't allow freshman to interview with the media. Asst coach Roy Williams always stacked the deck against MJin practice to highlight what he needed to work on even when it pissed MJoff. MJ learned to pass, how to run an offense, how to improve his off the ball movement and how to handle the media. MJ was too busy learning how to play within a system to dominate college ball the way he did the pros. And he was the better player for it.

After watching MJ dominate practice offensively, Dean Smith told MJ he should use his athletic gifts on the defensive side of the ball. The teaching continued even after he graduated. It was Roy Williams who told MJ he needed to work on his jumpshot after he won Rookie of the Year averaging 28, 7 and 6 with 2 steals and a block while shooting 48% from the field. Every summer he used to go back to Carolina to work out with the guys and find ways to improve his game. That's how you get to be the most gifted AND technically sound 2-way player in the NBA. Dean Smith is also the guy that recommended David Falk to represent him in the NBA (though he later regretted it).

If he had gone to UCLA, MJwould have still been special but he wouldn't have been the same player and probably would have been much worse even with all those physical gifts. So yeah, without Dean Smith, Roy Williams and Bill Guthredge, MJ is not the consensus GOAT, in my opinion.