Glen Rice:

[G-Funk]

[RedBlackAttack]

Let's face it, guys.... It isn't even worth talking about, at this point... And it probably never will be worth discussing.

Rice is just stating the obvious... Except the Kobe part... He isn't close, either.

[ChandlerParsons]

Obviously.........................
:blah

[BarberSchool]

Let's face it, guys.... It isn't even worth talking about, at this point... And it probably never will be worth discussing.

Rice is just stating the obvious... Except the Kobe part... He isn't close, either.True.
But Kobe probably will be the closest once his career is done.

[Jacks3]

2009/2010 LeBron is very close in terms of individual play. Maybe better.

[RedBlackAttack]

2009/2010 LeBron is very close in terms of individual play. Maybe better.
:facepalm

You have the nerve to call others 'stans' and then you go and say something like this? How old are you? Were you even out of the womb when Jordan was in his prime?

[andgar923]

2009/2010 LeBron is very close in terms of individual play. Maybe better.

Statistically and in some aspects of the game maybe.

But MJ is the GOAT due to the 'sum' of not just his talent but the other intangibles.

Some of those who played and coached against him usually mention MJ's "will to win" and "mental toughness" as the things that made him so great.

Now... Kobe has some of these same qualities, just not the same results.

And Bron has given us a glimpse of these qualities, but not to the same extent.

[swi7ch]

Once again, Pippen proves to everyone that he is Jordan's bitch. MJ tells him to say that LeBron is better / can be as good as MJ and everyone suddenly defends MJ and tells Pippen and the media no way... just as MJ predicted.

Jordan = :bowdown:

[Jacks3]

:facepalm

You have the nerve to call others 'stans' and then you go and say something like this? How old are you? Were you even out of the womb when Jordan was in his prime?
What? It's not a crazy statement at all. In terms of impact on the game LeBron was just as dominant. Don't let your hate blind you man. LBJ during those years was top 5 ever if you're just going by peak play.

[RedBlackAttack]

Statistically and in some aspects of the game maybe.

But MJ is the GOAT due to the 'sum' of not just his talent but the other intangibles.

Some of those who played and coached against him usually mention MJ's "will to win" and "mental toughness" as the things that made him so great.

Now... Kobe has some of these same qualities, just not the same results.

And Bron has given us a glimpse of these qualities, but not to the same extent.
James is probably the greatest natural athlete that I have ever seen in the NBA... And maybe in any sport. He is certainly in that freakish natural athlete pantheon with guys like Bo Jackson and Dave Winfield (yep, look it up).

But, simply being a great natural athlete is not what made Jordan the GOAT. As you alluded to, that was only a relatively small ingredient in the stew of qualities that made Jordan as great as he was.

While he was one of the greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen, he was also -- undoubtedly -- the greatest competitor that I have ever seen in any sport. I used to get the feeling that Jordan would kill people -- possibly multiple people -- just to win a single game. For a Finals game? I'm pretty sure he would have committed mass genocide if it was legal and he thought it might help.

James doesn't seem to have that in his DNA and that is the reason that such a comparison is silly. The single thing that made Jordan as dominant as he was is the thing that James seems to lack.

You are right in that Kobe does seem to have some incredible competitiveness, but it comes across differently. Jordan's only desire was to win... Sometimes, I get the feeling that Kobe's competitiveness is more individually motivated.

Plus, while he is a great athlete, I wouldn't put Kobe in the Jordan/James category of freakish natural athletes.

[knightfall88]

What? It's not a crazy statement at all. In terms of impact on the game LeBron was just as dominant. Don't let your hate blind you man. LBJ during those years was top 5 ever if you're just going by peak play.

If you watched the series that Lebron lost (orlando 2009 and boston 2010), you'll realise he really didn't have much of a chance despite him putting up monster stats. And besides he alienated and relegated all his team mates to jumpshoot all series than the fans blame them for missing their shots when the offense was awful from the beginning. It was disgusting to watch.

[Samurai Swoosh]

James is probably the greatest natural athlete that I have ever seen in the NBA... And maybe in any sport. He is certainly in that freakish natural athlete pantheon with guys like Bo Jackson and Dave Winfield (yep, look it up).

But, simply being a great natural athlete is not what made Jordan the GOAT. As you alluded to, that was only a relatively small ingredient in the stew of qualities that made Jordan as great as he was.

While he was one of the greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen, he was also -- undoubtedly -- the greatest competitor that I have ever seen in any sport. I used to get the feeling that Jordan would kill people -- possibly multiple people -- just to win a single game. For a Finals game? I'm pretty sure he would have committed mass genocide if it was legal and he thought it might help.

James doesn't seem to have that in his DNA and that is the reason that such a comparison is silly. The single thing that made Jordan as dominant as he was is the thing that James seems to lack.

You are right in that Kobe does seem to have some incredible competitiveness, but it comes across differently. Jordan's only desire was to win... Sometimes, I get the feeling that Kobe's competitiveness is more individually motivated.

Plus, while he is a great athlete, I wouldn't put Kobe in the Jordan/James category of freakish natural athletes.
THIS x 10 ... great post, from one of the ELITE on these boards.

Especially the bold. That's one of the defining characteristics of the difference in what many consider a similar competitive nature. There is a difference, and it's noticeable to the connoisseur of the game.

Kobe always wanted to prove on the individual level he was great. So it comes across as more manipulative in both his demeanor, antics, and game. Such as the way he will try and premeditate how he wants to play on a given day, as opposed to letting the game came naturally to him.

Jordan? That mother f'er just wanted to win. At any and all costs. I just watched on NBA tv game 6 v.s. the Magic in 1995. This guy just got back to the game of basketball, already has 3 rings and 3 MVPs and they lose the game. They lost the game cause Jordan who made an outstanding play at the end of the game, dumping the ball off to Luc Longely with a great pass after he got doubled, blows the layup ... and you can see Jordan's anger boiling to the surface. Then as the final moments set in of the game, and its clear the Bulls are going to lose. It comes out and Jordan in a frusterating act, gives imaginary punches to the ground.

The guy was an INSANE competitor, with no other agenda than to win. I sometimes think Kobe is too smart for his own good. He came into the league thinking about his legacy as a player. Jordan, always wanting to prove critics wrong and prove he was as great as player as well, he just did it in a much more legitmate way. He just wanted to beat people, plain and simple.

I get the feeling Kobe looks too far down the road, and that's also why he sometimes fails on the biggest stages sometimes. He gets too consumed with the future meaning. Jordan was just worried about the then and now, with the immediate results. If that makes sense to any of you ... I don't know if I did a good job conveying my thoughts. haha

[Collie]

A simplistic summary of MJ = Lebron's stats combined with Kobe's intangibles.

[andgar923]

James is probably the greatest natural athlete that I have ever seen in the NBA... And maybe in any sport. He is certainly in that freakish natural athlete pantheon with guys like Bo Jackson and Dave Winfield (yep, look it up).

But, simply being a great natural athlete is not what made Jordan the GOAT. As you alluded to, that was only a relatively small ingredient in the stew of qualities that made Jordan as great as he was.

While he was one of the greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen, he was also -- undoubtedly -- the greatest competitor that I have ever seen in any sport. I used to get the feeling that Jordan would kill people -- possibly multiple people -- just to win a single game. For a Finals game? I'm pretty sure he would have committed mass genocide if it was legal and he thought it might help.

James doesn't seem to have that in his DNA and that is the reason that such a comparison is silly. The single thing that made Jordan as dominant as he was is the thing that James seems to lack.

You are right in that Kobe does seem to have some incredible competitiveness, but it comes across differently. Jordan's only desire was to win... Sometimes, I get the feeling that Kobe's competitiveness is more individually motivated.

Plus, while he is a great athlete, I wouldn't put Kobe in the Jordan/James category of freakish natural athletes.

Although it may seem as though we don't know his true intentions, I do agree with you on Kobe. It seems that his competitiveness has more to do with his desire to be better than MJ than winning. Winning is a byproduct of being better than MJ, so it kinda goes hand in hand.

I think that with MJ it was the other way around.

And I also agree that Kobe isn't on the same level of freakish athleticism that MJ and Bron are in.

[Jacks3]

If you watched the series that Lebron lost (orlando 2009 and boston 2010), you'll realise he really didn't have much of a chance despite him putting up monster stats. .
Yeah, that happens when your supporting cast sucks. The fact that he got those garbage teams to 60+ wins in absolutely mind-boggling.

[RedBlackAttack]

THIS x 10 ... great post, from one of the ELITE on these boards.

Especially the bold. That's one of the defining characteristics of the difference in what many consider a similar competitive nature. There is a difference, and it's noticeable to the connoisseur of the game.

Kobe always wanted to prove on the individual level he was great. So it comes across as more manipulative in both his demeanor, antics, and game. Such as the way he will try and premeditate how he wants to play on a given day, as opposed to letting the game came naturally to him.

Jordan? That mother f'er just wanted to win. At any and all costs. I just watched on NBA tv game 6 v.s. the Magic in 1995. This guy just got back to the game of basketball, already has 3 rings and 3 MVPs and they lose the game. They lost the game cause Jordan who made an outstanding play at the end of the game, dumping the ball off to Luc Longely with a great pass after he got doubled, blows the layup ... and you can see Jordan's anger boiling to the surface. Then as the final moments set in of the game, and its clear the Bulls are going to lose. It comes out and Jordan in a frusterating act, gives imaginary punches to the ground.

The guy was an INSANE competitor, with no other agenda than to win. I sometimes think Kobe is too smart for his own good. He came into the league thinking about his legacy as a player. Jordan, always wanting to prove critics wrong and prove he was as great as player as well, he just did it in a much more legitmate way. He just wanted to beat people, plain and simple.

I get the feeling Kobe looks too far down the road, and that's also why he sometimes fails on the biggest stages sometimes. He gets too consumed with the future meaning. Jordan was just worried about the then and now, with the immediate results. If that makes sense to any of you ... I don't know if I did a good job conveying my thoughts. haha

Yes, we are on the same page. It does seem to be more about 'legacy' for Kobe than just doing everything possible to beat the guy/team in front of you for the sake of winning. There is a rather sizable difference and it has resulted in two different mentalities on the court.

At this point, there really is no reason to discuss or compare James and Jordan in terms of will-to-win. James' will is a total mystery and I'm not sure he is even motivated by anything basketball-related... He came into the league with the stated goal of becoming the first billionaire athlete and to increase the value of his 'brand.' I'm getting the feeling that this might be his greatest motivation which, if true, takes him out of the conversation with Jordan forever.

I think what LeBron fails to realize is that, before Jordan was an icon and the Jumpman was a symbol that everyone immediately recognized and he was arguably the most famous person on the planet, Jordan was a guy whose sole purpose was to win. Everything that he earned in terms of celebrity and legacy and brand and money was a byproduct of that singular motive.

Don't you get the feeling that Bron's singular motive is to become rich and powerful and his play on the court is just a means to get there? If so, it sort of explains his play in the Finals. Only on the absolute biggest stage with everything on the line do you get a really clear window into what drives a player and just how badly they want to win, above all else. We got a look at that from James in the last couple of weeks and the resulting conclusion was one of almost complete mystery.

What is driving this guy?


Kobe, on the other hand, does truly seem to want to win at all costs, but -- as we both said -- for different reasons than Jordan.

[RedBlackAttack]

Yeah, that happens when your supporting cast sucks. The fact that he got those garbage teams to 60+ wins in absolutely mind-boggling.
And, what happens when your supporting cast includes arguably the best player in the league and an elite PF?

[Jacks3]

This year is irrelevant. The 2011 version is clearly not the same player he was in 2010 or 2009 where he was playing at a GOAT-level. His athleticism suffered a major decline.

[RedBlackAttack]

This year is irrelevant. The 2011 version is clearly not the same player he was in 2010 or 2009 where he was playing at a GOAT-level. His athleticism suffered a major decline.
Conveniently enough.

He was a plenty great enough athlete to put up a better fight than he did in the Finals. That series may have forever taken him out of this conversation and rightfully so.

I like how, now that he doesn't have his teammates in Cleveland to blame anymore, he is suddenly a totally different player.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Don't you get the feeling that Bron's singular motive is to become rich and powerful and his play on the court is just a means to get there? If so, it sort of explains his play in the Finals. Only on the absolute biggest stage with everything on the line do you get a really clear window into what drives a player and just how badly they want to win, above all else. We got a look at that from James in the last couple of weeks and the resulting conclusion was one of almost complete mystery.

What is driving this guy?
Exactly.

For Kobe, we have seen in the Finals. He wants to win, but wants it to enhance his own legacy. IE shooting his team out of games in 2004, etc. But hey, with Bryant it's the lesser of two evils. At least I know this guy unjustifably cares about basketball, and cares about his basketball resume. Even though he doesn't go about things in the most honest ways, he still obviously cares.

With LeBron, I think you might be right. Him being in the spot light in the Finals is just a tool to enhance the "brand" ... instead of the "brand" being a byproduct of winning. I mean if he really had the hunger to flat out win (like Jordan) or simply had the hunger to be labeled as the best for his own personal legacy (like Kobe) ... there is no way on earth he would be that timid on the stage where he could immedietly enhance either one of those goals if that was his prerogative.

I remember reading an interview around the aftermath of "the decision" where they were talking to Maverick Carter and/or LeBron and they asked him what would the fall out be to signing with the Heat. As in what would it do to his personal "brand" ... Maverick or LeBron (I'm assuming Maverick cause he's obviously the brains of the operation) said something to the effect of "well bad publicity is publicity none the less" ... meaning even if his "brand" takes an immediate hit with un-popularity, he will be popular no matter what because he will be forced down our throat because he will always be relevant. With those three players, they will always be bound to be playing deep into the playoffs ... LeBron will ALWAYS be on television or talked about. Even now, dude lost in the Finals and we're not talking about the Mavs accomplishment (really it was the Heat collapsing) ... we're talking about LeBron choking. He's always relevant.

He knew he was going to Miami for awhile. Why did he wait the whole summer to tell us in a 1 hour special? To stay in the news and in the media. LeBron clearly cares more about things un-related to what goes on in between those four baselines.

[Samurai Swoosh]

A simplistic summary of MJ = Lebron's stats combined with Kobe's intangibles.
To add more to this solid, yet simplistic statement

Kobe's skills

and

LeBron's freakish athleticism, and durability

[catch24]

Kobe has always been about 'proving someone wrong'; Mike was the same way. But the difference between them lies within winning and individual-legacy. Not saying Kobe isn't about winning but as someone else pointed out, he sometimes goes into games looking to step on another teams throat BY HIMSELF. Subsequently he loses focus on the task at hand - which is winning, as a team; whereas Jordan conjoined his individual game within an offense USING his teammates.

Now don't get me wrong, Kobe is an awesome player and a champion (who moreover does make his teammates better) and I'm not trying to imply Jordan was perfect, who too used to go on scoring binges freezing his teammates out, but he was far less erratic and stuck to fundamental/high iq principles more frequently than Kobe did/does.

[rodman91]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2665/5834437316_b36886a71b_z.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3113/5833883193_a9af36cf42_z.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_wnAUWpoJA :roll:

[Jacks3]

Conveniently enough.

He was a plenty great enough athlete to put up a better fight than he did in the Finals. That series may have forever taken him out of this conversation and rightfully so.

I like how, now that he doesn't have his teammates in Cleveland to blame anymore, he is suddenly a totally different player.
There's nothing "convenient" about it. It was clear even before the Finals that he was nowhere near the athlete he was once and nowhere near the same player. Put 2009 LBJ on the same Heat team and they win easily.

[Samurai Swoosh]

There's nothing "convenient" about it. It was clear even before the Finals that he was nowhere near the athlete he was once and nowhere near the same player. Put 2009 LBJ on the same Heat team and they win easily.
Put 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011 LeBron James on that Heat team and they win.

LeBron wasn't even playing up to snuff with 2011 version of himself.

[Jasper]

Let's face it, guys.... It isn't even worth talking about, at this point... And it probably never will be worth discussing.

Rice is just stating the obvious... Except the Kobe part... He isn't close, either.

correct - Kobe never brought any of his teammates up a level ... if anything it was Jackson.

[Micku]

This year is irrelevant. The 2011 version is clearly not the same player he was in 2010 or 2009 where he was playing at a GOAT-level. His athleticism suffered a major decline.

It isn't irrelevant to his legacy or whatever in comparison to Jordan. People would say he couldn't do what Jordan could do. LeBron is only 26 years old and in his eight season.

When Jordan was in his eight season, when he was 29 years old, he averaged 34.5 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.8 apg, and 49.9% FG in the playoffs. His athleticism was down in comparison to the 80s, but he was still able to do a bunch of things.

You could say that Jordan didn't have scoring options that LBJ, so his points would've went down. However, LBJ went had a completely horrible finals, and only averaged 8 points. You could say that he was playing the role of a playmaker, but even Magic and Pippen in 91 had a better finals than he did. Jordan at the age of 33 had better stats and played better than LeBron James in the playoffs this year.

You can't really compare the two.


But in the other years I guess you can. But there were weakness to LBJ game, but his impact on the game was great. LBJ was mainly unstoppable in those playoffs, but whatever he was better than Jordan? I dunno. Arguable. There are probably little things here and there that will edge out to Jordan since his game was more polish, but LBJ was really raw in 09 good or bad.

[kaiiu]

are ppl still using that Lebrick had no help excuse anymore? :oldlol:

I thought Dirk just put that to rest when he won with Mo Will... I mean Jason Terry as his 2nd option

[asdf1990]

Lebron still has about 4-5 years to re write his legacy. People acting like lebrons career is over. Maybe this was the slap in the face he needed to finally improve his game. If he fails again next year then its a different story.

[kaiiu]

Lebron still has about 4-5 years to re write his legacy. People acting like lebrons career is over. Maybe this was the slap in the face he needed to finally improve his game. If he fails again next year then its a different story.
all the hate this year should have been enough motivation. He jsut dont got it bruh

[Samurai Swoosh]

all the hate this year should have been enough motivation. He jsut dont got it bruh
This ...

Plus with the rapid age of his body in a year time frame, thinks aren't looking very bright

[necya]

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2443/25051510150218296160138.jpg

seller info and item location

[Godzuki]

2009/2010 LeBron is very close in terms of individual play. Maybe better.


1v1 maybe, and even defensively maybe he'd be close... MJ would crush him on decision making, passing, and will of fire. not to mention MJ's game was way more fun to watch.

[Godzuki]

THIS x 10 ... great post, from one of the ELITE on these boards.

Especially the bold. That's one of the defining characteristics of the difference in what many consider a similar competitive nature. There is a difference, and it's noticeable to the connoisseur of the game.

Kobe always wanted to prove on the individual level he was great. So it comes across as more manipulative in both his demeanor, antics, and game. Such as the way he will try and premeditate how he wants to play on a given day, as opposed to letting the game came naturally to him.

Jordan? That mother f'er just wanted to win. At any and all costs. I just watched on NBA tv game 6 v.s. the Magic in 1995. This guy just got back to the game of basketball, already has 3 rings and 3 MVPs and they lose the game. They lost the game cause Jordan who made an outstanding play at the end of the game, dumping the ball off to Luc Longely with a great pass after he got doubled, blows the layup ... and you can see Jordan's anger boiling to the surface. Then as the final moments set in of the game, and its clear the Bulls are going to lose. It comes out and Jordan in a frusterating act, gives imaginary punches to the ground.

The guy was an INSANE competitor, with no other agenda than to win. I sometimes think Kobe is too smart for his own good. He came into the league thinking about his legacy as a player. Jordan, always wanting to prove critics wrong and prove he was as great as player as well, he just did it in a much more legitmate way. He just wanted to beat people, plain and simple.

I get the feeling Kobe looks too far down the road, and that's also why he sometimes fails on the biggest stages sometimes. He gets too consumed with the future meaning. Jordan was just worried about the then and now, with the immediate results. If that makes sense to any of you ... I don't know if I did a good job conveying my thoughts. haha


thats why Phil says Kobe has a narcissistic complex

[24r2]

umm... Kobe > Jordan

[nnn123]

2009/2010 LeBron is very close in terms of individual play. Maybe better.


How the hell can someone say this, considering recent events? Are you dumb? If you'd said this in 2009 before the playoffs, then I wouldn't contest, but NOW considering how much of a choker he's been up to this point....WTF?

[Jacks3]

How the hell can someone say this, considering recent events? Are you dumb? If you'd said this in 2009 before the playoffs, then I wouldn't contest, but NOW considering how much of a choker he's been up to this point....WTF?
Because the 2011 version is nowhere the version we saw in 2009 or 2010 as a individual player. How is this not obvious? Are you dumb?

[rodman91]

umm... Kobe > Jordan
Dirk disagrees..
http://mrsgrapevine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Dirk-Mops-The-Floor-Lakers-Sweep.jpg

[G-Funk]

Kobe, on the other hand, does truly seem to want to win at all costs, but -- as we both said -- for different reasons than Jordan.

WE don't exactly know that for a fact. My guess is as good as yours!

[nnn123]

Because the 2011 version is nowhere the version we saw in 2009 or 2010 as a individual player. How is this not obvious? Are you dumb?


Because, child...as you may have noticed the past few years, Lebron's MAJOR obstacle to not winning a title was his mentality in the extreme clutch. He unexplicably stopped trying against Boston in 2010. We all thought it was just a freak occurrence (me included). Now, one year later, THE SAME FCKING THING HAPPENS IN THE FINALS. Lebron hasn't changed as a player. He destroyed teams in the earlier rounds of the playoffs. Obviously his stats will go down while playing alongside Wade/Bosh. It's just that, up to this point in his career, he doesn't have that mentality you need to win the title in the biggest of moments. "choke", or "lacking killer instinct", whatever those words are that y'all use. You're telling me 2009 lebron would play better under the pressure? Why????

[Jacks3]

Because, child...as you may have noticed the past few years, Lebron's MAJOR obstacle to not winning a title was his mentality in the extreme clutch. He unexplicably stopped trying against Boston in 2010. We all thought it was just a freak occurrence (me included). Now, one year later, THE SAME FCKING THING HAPPENS IN THE FINALS. Lebron hasn't changed as a player. He destroyed teams in the earlier rounds of the playoffs. Obviously his stats will go down while playing alongside Wade/Bosh. It's just that, up to this point in his career, he doesn't have that mentality you need to win the title in the biggest of moments. "choke", or "lacking killer instinct", whatever those words are that y'all use. You're telling me 2009 lebron would play better under the pressure? Why????
Listen here kid.

LeBron's biggest problem in the Finals was his lack of slashing ability, NOT his mentality. If he had the athleticism he had in 2009 or 2010 that wouldn't have been a problem. He would have torched Marion/Kidd/DeShawn.

The only reasons he destroyed in the earlier rounds is because he had his jumper going, but it was clear even in those series that he had lost a ton of quickness and explosion. 09/2010 LBJ wouldn't have that problem.

09 & 2010 LBJ was on a whole other level.

[nnn123]

Yeah you're right. Dude averages 27 points per game for the season. Torches the #1 defense in the league, has no problem getting whatever the hell he wants. Then goes against the freakin mavs and their weak lil zone, and all of a sudden gets shut down to 17 ppg. I'm sure that's not a mentality issue at all

[Micku]

LeBron's biggest problem in the Finals was his lack of slashing ability, NOT his mentality. If he had the athleticism he had in 2009 or 2010 that wouldn't have been a problem. He would have torched Marion/Kidd/DeShawn.

The only reasons he destroyed in the earlier rounds is because he had his jumper going, but it was clear even in those series that he had lost a ton of quickness and explosion. 09/2010 LBJ wouldn't have that problem.

09 & 2010 LBJ was on a whole other level.

I disagree with LeBron mentality not being a issue as much as his slashing ability. The dude did not shoot. He lost confidence in his shot for whatever reason. And whenever he did drive, he wasn't getting the call.

While 09 LeBron would drive more, the slashing ability wasn't his problem in the Finals. It wasn't a problem in the Boston series or the Bulls, who were a better defensive team than the Mavs. And it wasn't a problem all year long.

His whole problem in the Finals was that he did not attack. He didn't look to create his own shot, he hardly drive, he hardly took a shot what so ever. Plus they stuck Kidd on him for a while, and he didn't want to shoot over him. Wade posted Kidd up sometimes and shot it in Kidd's face, but LeBron couldn't?

Whatever it was the Dallas defense, LBJ mentality, or the fact he felt that him being a playmaker would work best for the team in the Finals, he just sucked.

[Jacks3]

Yeah you're right. Dude averages 27 points per game for the season. Torches the #1 defense in the league, has no problem getting whatever the hell he wants. Then goes against the freakin mavs and their weak lil zone, and all of a sudden gets shut down to 17 ppg. I'm sure that's not a mentality issue at all
And if you had watched the Bulls series you'd have saw that he torched them with his jumper, but had trouble blowing by the likes of Asik and Gibson. The signs where there.

[cteach111]

I don't agree with most of what Jacks3 writes, but I do agree with what he said about Lebron's athleticism.

He couldn't quite bulldoze his way to the rim like he did in the past. I mean, he's still the best at doing it, but not quite what he used to do compared to his 2009 and 2010 seasons. I'll go as far as the 2008 season too.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Put 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011 LeBron James on that Heat team and they win.

LeBron wasn't even playing up to snuff with 2011 version of himself.

Lebron's jumper was really erratic in 2007 and 2008, he also had his best season this year in terms of both shooting and defense. He definitely wasn't as good as '09 or '10, but I think he was arguably better than any pre-2009 version. Certainly better than the '05 and '07 versions.

[cteach111]

And if you had watched the Bulls series you'd have saw that he torched them with his jumper, but had trouble blowing by the likes of Asik and Gibson. The signs where there.

yeah, that's also true. He used his jumper quite a lot against the Bulls, but he's taken some steps back as far as driving to the rim.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Lebron's jumper was really erratic in 2007 and 2008, he also had his best season this year in terms of both shooting and defense. He definitely wasn't as good as '09 or '10, but I think he was arguably better than any pre-2009 version. Certainly better than the '05 and '07 versions.
No ... because his jumper wasn't falling regardless in the Finals.

At least the 2005, 2006, and 2007 versions can get to the rim at will and put pressure on the defense.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No ... because his jumper wasn't falling regardless in the Finals.

At least the 2005, 2006, and 2007 versions can get to the rim at will and put pressure on the defense.

Well, Lebron was having quite a few horrendous shooting games during 2007 compared to other versions and he was a poor free throw shooter for his position as well, same with 2008, though he was considerably better in 2008 than 2007. But even so, he could be exposed as an offensive player, whether it was a lack of shooting ability or a lack of mental toughness, he had back to years with series where he was eliminated shooting 35-36% and averaging 5-6 turnovers per game.

I question his maturity in 2005 as well and he clearly wasn't the overall player he is now back then.

The fact that an 8th year version of Lebron crumbled under the pressure makes me even more skeptical that a 2005 version would be mature enough.

It's not a matter of Lebron being gifted enough to do more in the finals, it's definitely a mental problem. That's why I don't buy those other versions winning, except 2009 and probably 2010(though he disappeared as well in that Boston series).

After all, we saw Lebron have a strong regular season and play well vs Boston and Chicago who are better defensive teams than Dallas.

[kaiiu]

Lebron STILL is a poor ft shooter for a wing player. His career high is like 77%. He shot 75% this year. He shot 56% in the finals :violin:

[ronniec]

Glen tells the truth

[Da_Realist]

THIS x 10 ... great post, from one of the ELITE on these boards.

Especially the bold. That's one of the defining characteristics of the difference in what many consider a similar competitive nature. There is a difference, and it's noticeable to the connoisseur of the game.

Kobe always wanted to prove on the individual level he was great. So it comes across as more manipulative in both his demeanor, antics, and game. Such as the way he will try and premeditate how he wants to play on a given day, as opposed to letting the game came naturally to him.

Jordan? That mother f'er just wanted to win. At any and all costs. I just watched on NBA tv game 6 v.s. the Magic in 1995. This guy just got back to the game of basketball, already has 3 rings and 3 MVPs and they lose the game. They lost the game cause Jordan who made an outstanding play at the end of the game, dumping the ball off to Luc Longely with a great pass after he got doubled, blows the layup ... and you can see Jordan's anger boiling to the surface. Then as the final moments set in of the game, and its clear the Bulls are going to lose. It comes out and Jordan in a frusterating act, gives imaginary punches to the ground.

The guy was an INSANE competitor, with no other agenda than to win. I sometimes think Kobe is too smart for his own good. He came into the league thinking about his legacy as a player. Jordan, always wanting to prove critics wrong and prove he was as great as player as well, he just did it in a much more legitmate way. He just wanted to beat people, plain and simple.

I get the feeling Kobe looks too far down the road, and that's also why he sometimes fails on the biggest stages sometimes. He gets too consumed with the future meaning. Jordan was just worried about the then and now, with the immediate results. If that makes sense to any of you ... I don't know if I did a good job conveying my thoughts. haha

I remember the pass and blown layup to Longley. I don't remember the imaginary punches. ** making a mental note to watch the end of that game again ** . Thanks

[Chicago Brawls]

Michael didn't quit on his city after all the initial losing.

Neither did he joined forces with Magic or Bird.

[bluechox2]

Michael didn't quit on his city after all the initial losing.

Neither did he joined forces with Magic or Bird.
:lol

[Dragonyeuw]

I question his maturity in 2005 as well and he clearly wasn't the overall player he is now back then.

The fact that an 8th year version of Lebron crumbled under the pressure makes me even more skeptical that a 2005 version would be mature enough.




The 2005 version didn't have the kind of expectations he has now. Even though Lebron had a sub-par 2007 finals, I think generally he's performed better when he's the underdog. He's more or less been 'expected' to win since 2008-09, and it seems that it's the expectations and pressure of living up to being the favorite, that makes him buckle.

No-one was questioning his will to win when he raped the Pistons back in the 07 playoffs, but again his team wasn't expected to beat them, so the pressure was off for the most part.

[Godzuki]

Michael didn't quit on his city after all the initial losing.

Neither did he joined forces with Magic or Bird.

yeah but a lot of people/teams are stacking superstars these days so its hard to fault them, but i also get why people do fault them since its a short cut to a ring.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The 2005 version didn't have the kind of expectations he has now. Even though Lebron had a sub-par 2007 finals, I think generally he's performed better when he's the underdog. He's more or less been 'expected' to win since 2008-09, and it seems that it's the expectations and pressure of living up to being the favorite, that makes him buckle.

No-one was questioning his will to win when he raped the Pistons back in the 07 playoffs, but again his team wasn't expected to beat them, so the pressure was off for the most part.

Well, 2009 was by far his best playoff performance, but other than that, you're probably right. But any of these versions of Lebron would be expected to win on this Heat team.

[Simple Jack]

:roll: at acting like Jordan didn't blatantly care about his stats for stretches early in his career; most notably when he played PG.

LeBron's 09/10 2 year stretch is on par with any players peak play ever; if not, top 5 all-time. It's not blasphemy to claim such either.

What's funny is that if he won the ring this year and continued his clutch play from the previous rounds, people would have no problem with claiming 09/10 LeBron is one of the best players we've ever seen the league yet, ring or not (this year and the following years), he's still the same player he was in 09/10.

[Indian guy]

I think generally he's performed better when he's the underdog. He's more or less been 'expected' to win since 2008-09, and it seems that it's the expectations and pressure of living up to being the favorite, that makes him buckle.

No-one was questioning his will to win when he raped the Pistons back in the 07 playoffs, but again his team wasn't expected to beat them, so the pressure was off for the most part.

Considering his best posteason runs have all come the last 3 seasons(when he's been EXPECTED win), this doesn't really have any merit to it.

[kaiiu]

Lebron cant win as a favorite. 3 Str8 years Lebrick has lost with HCA

[ShaqAttack3234]

Considering his best posteason runs have all come the last 3 seasons(when he's been EXPECTED win), this doesn't really have any merit to it.

Not really, considering the last 3 games vs Boston last year and the finals this year.

[Indian guy]

Not really, considering the last 3 games vs Boston last year and the finals this year.

Still better than whatever he did from 06-08.

[Dragonyeuw]

Considering his best posteason runs have all come the last 3 seasons(when he's been EXPECTED win), this doesn't really have any merit to it.

Considering his curiously passive, lethargic and underwhelming play in the 2010 playoffs against Boston, and this year's finals, I think it has plenty of merit. And I'm not interested in what he did against the Bulls in the ECF, before you bring up that line of defense. Legends are made in the finals, and he flopped. Period. And he's gone on record as not being happy with his performance in the finals.

[Simple Jack]

Considering his curiously passive, lethargic and underwhelming play in the 2010 playoffs against Boston, and this year's finals, I think it has plenty of merit. And I'm not interested in what he did against the Bulls in the ECF, before you bring up that line of defense. Legends are made in the finals, and he flopped. Period. And he's gone on record as not being happy with his performance in the finals.

The problem with this reasoning is that you're insisting that had he played bad in the ECF and ECSF (and 1st round) it wouldn't matter either. You can't simply disregard everything that's happened. The reason this finals was such a big deal is because of how well he played prior; it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if he sucked the whole way there. Then again, they probably wouldn't have made it that far had he played terribly in every other round.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The 2005 version didn't have the kind of expectations he has now. Even though Lebron had a sub-par 2007 finals, I think generally he's performed better when he's the underdog. He's more or less been 'expected' to win since 2008-09, and it seems that it's the expectations and pressure of living up to being the favorite, that makes him buckle.

No-one was questioning his will to win when he raped the Pistons back in the 07 playoffs, but again his team wasn't expected to beat them, so the pressure was off for the most part.
BINGO was his name-o

[Simple Jack]

Are people forgetting how pressure packed the Chicago series was, especially to start out? They got blown out first game and had half the world saying "I told you so, Chicago is going to beat Miami while LeBron chokes". We all know how that went.

I'm well aware the Finals is the most intense and pressure filled series that one can play in, but don't act like the Boston series and Chicago series wasn't even close to the same level.

[kaiiu]

lol @ the Chicago series having pressure. Lebrick just demolished that same team the year before, he knew he would win that series. His stats werent all that impressive either.

[knickscity]

Are people forgetting how pressure packed the Chicago series was, especially to start out? They got blown out first game and had half the world saying "I told you so, Chicago is going to beat Miami while LeBron chokes". We all know how that went.

I'm well aware the Finals is the most intense and pressure filled series that one can play in, but don't act like the Boston series and Chicago series wasn't even close to the same level.
Personally I don't think Miami even took Chicago seriously.

They clamped down on Rose, and knew they had no one else to do anything to beat them.

The Boston series was tougher because of the matchups, and had Rondo not went down, Boston most likely would have pushed the series to seven.

[Dragonyeuw]

The problem with this reasoning is that you're insisting that had he played bad in the ECF and ECSF (and 1st round) it wouldn't matter either. You can't simply disregard everything that's happened. The reason this finals was such a big deal is because of how well he played prior; it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if he sucked the whole way there. Then again, they probably wouldn't have made it that far had he played terribly in every other round.

If he had played like that in the ECF and ECSF, there wouldn't even have been a conversation about comparing him to Jordan. Pippen wouldn't have made that comment a few weeks back, and the board wouldn't be overflooded like it is now with countless( and increasingly pointless and tiresome) Lebron threads about his historical rankings based on those comments.

I can easily disregard what he did prior to the finals, because in the grand scheme of things, the greatest players in history usually make their mark on the biggest stage. No-one here talks about what Jordan did in the ECF or the damn first round( unless it's of historical significance like his 63 vs Celtics in 1986), we talk about his switch-hand layup vs Lakers and the 13 straight field goals, the 6 3-pointers and shrug vs Portland, the 41 ppg against Phoenix in 93, the game winners against Utah in 97 and 98. Lebron has yet to do anything when it REALLY matters, so yeah, the great regular season stats and great performances in earlier playoff rounds become moot. If people are going to compare him to the standards Jordan set, then yes the level of scrutiny and criticism when he comes up woefully short in the biggest moments is warranted. And the fact that Lebron is now a 8 year veteran coming into his prime, makes his mediocre performance in this finals even more frustrating. Hell, if someone's first time watching Lebron was this year's finals, they'd come away saying 'HUH? THIS is the guy you're comparing to Jordan??!!'

The fact that Lebron hasn't YET in two opportunities put up one truly great, career defining finals performance leading to a title, takes him out of the GOAT discussion for the moment. So forget where he compares to Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Wilt and let's see if he can rise above Karl Malone, Barkley, Ewing, etc first.

[Andrei89]

RBA still butthurt Lebron left sorry ass Cleveland:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Samurai Swoosh]

RBA still butthurt Lebron left sorry ass Cleveland
This dude's steaming those three guys couldn't even get it done.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Chrono90]

2009/2010 LeBron is very close in terms of individual play. Maybe better.


must be a kid that never saw jordan play or never go on google to checkout jordan's best season accomplishments

[Indian guy]

Considering his curiously passive, lethargic and underwhelming play in the 2010 playoffs against Boston

You mean that 1 half in Game 5? And his overall numbers in that series are better than nearly 70% of playoff series' in his career.


and this year's finals

His only off series the last 3 seasons, compared to 3 from 06-08.


I think it has plenty of merit.

It has none. LeBron has simply been a FAR more productive player when expected to win the last 3 seasons as opposed to being an underdog from 06-08.

[Simple Jack]

If he had played like that in the ECF and ECSF, there wouldn't even have been a conversation about comparing him to Jordan. Pippen wouldn't have made that comment a few weeks back, and the board wouldn't be overflooded like it is now with countless( and increasingly pointless and tiresome) Lebron threads about his historical rankings based on those comments.

I can easily disregard what he did prior to the finals, because in the grand scheme of things, the greatest players in history usually make their mark on the biggest stage. No-one here talks about what Jordan did in the ECF or the damn first round( unless it's of historical significance like his 63 vs Celtics in 1986), we talk about his switch-hand layup vs Lakers and the 13 straight field goals, the 6 3-pointers and shrug vs Portland, the 41 ppg against Phoenix in 93, the game winners against Utah in 97 and 98. Lebron has yet to do anything when it REALLY matters, so yeah, the great regular season stats and great performances in earlier playoff rounds become moot. If people are going to compare him to the standards Jordan set, then yes the level of scrutiny and criticism when he comes up woefully short in the biggest moments is warranted. And the fact that Lebron is now a 8 year veteran coming into his prime, makes his mediocre performance in this finals even more frustrating. Hell, if someone's first time watching Lebron was this year's finals, they'd come away saying 'HUH? THIS is the guy you're comparing to Jordan??!!'

The fact that Lebron hasn't YET in two opportunities put up one truly great, career defining finals performance leading to a title, takes him out of the GOAT discussion for the moment. So forget where he compares to Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Wilt and let's see if he can rise above Karl Malone, Barkley, Ewing, etc first.

What career defining finals performance did Kobe have? He's been supar in the finals his whole career.

[Heavincent]

The problem with this reasoning is that you're insisting that had he played bad in the ECF and ECSF (and 1st round) it wouldn't matter either. You can't simply disregard everything that's happened. The reason this finals was such a big deal is because of how well he played prior; it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if he sucked the whole way there. Then again, they probably wouldn't have made it that far had he played terribly in every other round.

Lebron's playoff run up until the finals wasn't THAT good. Old man Kobe's playoff run in 2010 was far superior. Hell, Wade's playoff run this year was better.

[Samurai Swoosh]

What career defining finals performance did Kobe have? He's been supar in the finals his whole career.
His 2001 Finals was pretty good with the exception of one really bad game.

His 2002 Finals was pretty good.

And his 2009 and 2010 Finals he recieved MVP and lead his teams to rings.

Are they Jordan esque caliber performances on the biggest stage? No.

They are certainly better than what LeBron has done.

[catch24]

What career defining finals performance did Kobe have? He's been supar in the finals his whole career.

At least the guy has had a great Finals.

27/5/5 on 51% shooting

[Samurai Swoosh]

At least the guy has had a great Finals.

27/5/5 on 51% shooting
Don't let the clowns make you be obsessed with FG% dude ... his 2009 Finals was pretty good as well. His game 1 and game 5 close out games were spectacular.

[catch24]

Don't let the clowns make you be obsessed with FG% dude ... his 2009 Finals was pretty good as well. His game 1 and game 5 close out games were spectacular.

Yeah, no doubt. His 2009 and 2002 Finals are something LeBron could only dream of. For the moment at least :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yeah, no doubt. His 2009 and 2002 Finals are something LeBron could only dream of. For the moment at least :oldlol:
LeBron doesn't have the explosion athletically and diversity in game to score 25 points in a finals game, let alone drop 40 in what basically was 3 quarters of play in an NBA Finals.

:facepalm

[cteach111]

LeBron doesn't have the explosion athletically and diversity in game to score 25 points in a finals game, let alone drop 40 in what basically was 3 quarters of play in an NBA Finals.

:facepalm

i think we can all expect him to score 25 pts or more in the future. I mean seriously..

[Samurai Swoosh]

i think we can all expect him to score 25 pts or more in the future. I mean seriously..
He had 10 games to do it already ... he averaged 25. Don't act like it's not pathetic he hasn't done it yet. It was pathetic he didn't do it in his first four games. C'mon, kid ...

[cteach111]

He had 10 games to do it already ... he averaged 25. Don't act like it's not pathetic he hasn't done it yet. It was pathetic he didn't do it in his first four games. C'mon, kid ...

It is pathetic and baffling. But it's pretty impossible for someone who's been posting 27 ppg for his career to never surpass the 25 pt mark.

[Dragonyeuw]

It has none. LeBron has simply been a FAR more productive player when expected to win the last 3 seasons as opposed to being an underdog from 06-08.



Please. You act like he was chopped liver in the playoffs before 2009. His singularly most impressive performance was against the Pistons in that 48 point classic back in 2007. With the exception of his 09 playoff performance against Orlando, he faded out in the 2010 playoffs, and he faded out in the 2011 finals. And in both circumstances, everyone's been scratching their heads trying to figure out 'what's wrong with Lebron'. You can play the apologist role if you like, his eliminations in 2010 and 2011 playoffs raises alot of questions.

[jlip]

It is pathetic and baffling. But it's pretty impossible for someone who's been posting 27 ppg for his career to never surpass the 25 pt mark.

Exactly. In this Finals Lebron didn't even try to score. He attempted only 15 shots per game and an even more baffling 3 free throws per game. That shows how unagressive he was. If I'm not mistakened, Lebron entered this playoff season averaging more FT attempts per game than any player in NBA history. In the Finals, he makes no effort to even get to the line and score. Mario Chalmers actually shot more FTs than he did while playing nearly 90 fewer minutes. So if Lebron even tried, he obviously would have scored much more. It's definitely not a question of ability.

[Dragonyeuw]

What career defining finals performance did Kobe have? He's been supar in the finals his whole career.

And yet he's still managed to lead his team to 2 championships. Kobe has never come up as small as Lebron did this past finals, and we can throw the 'Lebron had no help' argument out the window this year. If he had played CLOSE to how he did against the Bulls, the Heat would have won the championship.

[Dragonyeuw]

His 2001 Finals was pretty good with the exception of one really bad game.

His 2002 Finals was pretty good.

And his 2009 and 2010 Finals he recieved MVP and lead his teams to rings.

Are they Jordan esque caliber performances on the biggest stage? No.

They are certainly better than what LeBron has done.

This.

[Zambowie]

[QUOTE=G-Funk]

[G-Funk]

At least the guy has had a great Finals.

27/5/5 on 51% shooting

Just cause he had 51% series does not mean the others woearn't great, FG% is so overrated.

[Indian guy]

Please. You act like he was chopped liver in the playoffs before 2009.

No, I said 09-11 LeBron has been significantly better in the playoffs than 06-08. It's a fact.


His singularly most impressive performance was against the Pistons in that 48 point classic back in 2007.

That was 1 game. It was also LeBron's weakest playoff run.


With the exception of his 09 playoff performance against Orlando, he faded out in the 2010 playoffs, and he faded out in the 2011 finals.

06-08 28/8/7/43%/24 PER
09-11 29/9/9/49%/30 PER

As you can see, just A LOT better since he's been EXPECTED to win.

[kentatm]

Yeah, that happens when your supporting cast sucks. The fact that he got those garbage teams to 60+ wins in absolutely mind-boggling.


I seriously doubt he would have ever led any of those teams to 60 win seasons had the Cavs been a WC team.

The East is just so incredibly top heavy that it should be a guarantee they have the team with the best record every year.

[Indian guy]

I seriously doubt he would have ever led any of those teams to 60 win seasons had the Cavs been a WC team.

Cleveland had the best record against the WC both seasons.

[kentatm]

Cleveland had the best record against the WC both seasons.


Its not the same as playing the majority of your games against the West. Stick them in the SW with a guaranteed 4 games against teams like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, New Orleans and Memphis and I just do not think those Cavs teams would be 60 win squads.

[Dragonyeuw]

That was 1 game.


Hence why I said singular performance. Question is, where was that kind of performance when his team was on the brink of elimination in 2010, and 2011? Where was the kind of performance he gave in game 7 against Boston in 2008 when he went off for 45? Instead, we saw lethargic, passive, uninspired play to end his 2010 and 2011 seasons.






06-08 28/8/7/43%/24 PER
09-11 29/9/9/49%/30 PER

As you can see, just A LOT better since he's been EXPECTED to win.

08-09 bolstered his overall averages, specifically the series against Orlando when he averaged 38,8,8. Those numbers aren't significantly better than the 06-08 period otherwise. And furthermore, your whole argument is based strictly on numbers. How did Lebron perform when the going got tough in the series against Boston last year, and the Finals this year? He underperformed, and both occasions his team was favored. This year's finals being the most mysterious of all, as he was coming off a good performance against Chicago, and had one of the top 3 players in the league to ease the pressure off him. So what happened?