What made Shaq so dominant in his prime?

[iamgine]

One side claim that it's because Shaq was too quick and strong for the opposition defense.

Another side claim that it's because Shaq got away with a lot of offensive fouls.

So which one is it?

[Rockets(T-mac)]

:lolYup his entire dominance was due to offensive fouls.

[NugzHeat3]

One side claim that it's because Shaq was too quick and strong for the opposition defense.

Another side claim that it's because Shaq got away with a lot of offensive fouls.

So which one is it?

The first claim is correct.

The second claim has some legitimacy to it but it's cancelled out by the number of times Shaq would get hacked and fouled before he even got the ball. That's what happens when a guy created so much contact. Some bigs at that time were notorious floppers too.

[cteach111]

it was his size, strength, and speed. It wasn't really a skill thing with Shaq that made him dominant.

Just think about it... Shaq is 300+ lbs and strong to overpower any player that dare plays him man-to-man. Teams were FORCED to double, even triple team him because he was just too big, too fast, and too strong. Heck, even in his over-the-hill days, he was still getting double teams because no one could deal with his size, strength, and speed.

That's really all it comes down to... he had no rival physically.

[BlueandGold]

^ What he said, combination of the three but predominately, his size. No one had seen a 7'0 with that upper body as well as the enormous calves to support his weight.

[Stuckey]

size strength athleticism, the speed and footwork to match and damn good passing

[clipps]

It was obviously his quickness and speed. Once Shaq became old and lost his quickness, he wasn't as effective. He would still get double teamed because of his huge frame but without that quickness, all he was able to do was muscle to the basket but wasn't able to elevate anymore like he used to.

[Batz]

His athleticism and body type was the obvious. But his attitude played a HUGE part aswell. He just wanted to be dominant and you could just tell with his body language each and every game and his personality.

[Godzuki]

his size. i swear 3/4's of his baskets in his prime were post throw in's and throw downs. i'm sure someone will come in and pretend it was his athletic ability, but when you're that big over most of the competition(talking height/weight/girth) its not that hard to be that dominant IMO.

its something i'll always take away from Shaq's greatness because imo the game was easier for him than someone like MJ, iin terms of ability to dominate.

[k-SkiLLz]

it was his size, strength, and speed. It wasn't really a skill thing with Shaq that made him dominant.

Just think about it... Shaq is 300+ lbs and strong to overpower any player that dare plays him man-to-man. Teams were FORCED to double, even triple team him because he was just too big, too fast, and too strong. Heck, even in his over-the-hill days, he was still getting double teams because no one could deal with his size, strength, and speed.

That's really all it comes down to... he had no rival physically.
+1 ;)

[clipps]

his size. i swear 3/4's of his baskets in his prime were post throw in's and throw downs. i'm sure someone will come in and pretend it was his athletic ability, but when you're that big over most of the competition(talking height/weight/girth) its not that hard to be that dominant IMO.

its something i'll always take away from Shaq's greatness because imo the game was easier for him than someone like MJ, iin terms of ability to dominate.

Why wasn't he so dominant the past 3 seasons? Going by your logic, Shaq should have been the same dominant force the entire time

[brownmamba00]

He was quick and could dunk on a whole team. And it's not like he had any epic postmoves. Dude would just backup, dropstep and dunk.

Swag+Dominance:bowdown:

[Godzuki]

Why wasn't he so dominant the past 3 seasons? Going by your logic, Shaq should have been the same dominant force the entire time


Shaq can still dominate if you've watched his spot minutes with the Celtics. he'd have double doubles in like 12-15 min intervals. his major issue was he's always getting hurt these days. he's lost a step and slower but his post game is better than it was in his prime. still his size is why teams will still take chances on him since it gives him huge advantages in and of itself offensively and defensively at a crucial position.

[DirtySanchez]

Shaq was bigger on stronger then everyone else.
PLUS he had great foot work and speed during his prime years.
That's what faded after say the 05-06 season.
He also had great touch with his shots and good hands.
These are small fundamental things that he possessed...but when you add that to his physical frame watch out.

I was just watching an old Laker Kings game from the 2001 series last night.
Shaq got position every single time nobody could deny him. And he did that for the whole game. No Center in the NBA at this time comes close to Shaq in his prime. He was that good.

[ChandlerParsons]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eu2NrAqQr4
cause of that

[ShaqAttack3234]

Obviously size, strength and athleticism, but also his unusually good footwork for a 7 footer(much less one over 300 pounds), a good shooting touch from 8-10 feet and in, several very consistent post moves and counters for them, the ability to read double teams and use his excellent passing skills and of course, a relentless physical style inside.

[Mr. Jabbar]

his weight/speed ratio

[Apocalyptic0n3]

Way stronger, way bigger, and way more athletic than pretty much every player that ever tried to guard him. People have called Lebron a freak of nature his entire career but he has nothing Shaq.

[JohnnySic]

He takes up more space than any player I've ever seen*. Even players like Yao and Rik Smits who were taller weren't really "bigger" than Shaq when you take length, width, and mass into account.

Combine that with great athletic ability and underatted skills, and you have an unstopable beast.

*Anyone remember Thomas "Hamhock" Hamilton? 7'2" Fat ass who played for the Celtics in the mid 90's, and the only player I ever saw who made Shaq look small.

[Crown&Coke]

the fact that he was unguardable in his prime. You couldn't put one guy on him and expect him to be stopped. even double teams rarely stopped him as he would find open shooters/cutters or even overpowered doubles. You can't bring a small to double, he would just shed those cats with those explosive elbows.

-His speed and size will never again be seen in the combo in which he had.
-His post game coming into the L was polished.
-His footwork was outstanding.
-He demanded the ball.
-He would pass out, and repost immediately with even deeper post position (I don't see any big who does this today).
-His passing gets a solid grade A.
-Willing passer to his shooters or cutters.
-He KNEW he was the best and went out on gameday to PROVE it.
-He played with players who enabled him to be dominant
-He wanted to kill opposing players
-He is the MDE, nuff said

Being as good as Shaq was takes more than the skill he had, he also had the mindset in which made him great. He wanted to dominate, he wanted to crush you, he wanted to maime you, he wanted to win.

If he had a little stronger work ethic, he would clearly be seen as the best ever. But he was able to get by on being a little selfish in his workouts due to his extreme talent.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

his skills are heavily underrated ,he's not the only guy with that kind of size & strength but it takes a brain to put those in work
look @ Luther Wright

[Disaprine]

skills, strength and speed.

[Goliath Uterus]

His free throw shooting

[Godzuki]

Shaq skills in his prime were lacking if anything. he could barely make a jumper, let alone a free throw. he was mostly dunks/lay ups, but as for a polished skilled bball player, most of that didn't come until later from what i saw.

if you see Shaq next to Dwight they're the same freak height, but Shaq is like 5x's thicker.

[swi7ch]

7'1", 300+ pounds with the quickness of a small forward.

It's like creating a big strong center in NBA 2K11 and giving it a rating of 99 in quickness, speed, agility, etc.

It was unfair. He was basically using a cheat code and obviously dominated everyone because of it.

[FKAri]

his size. i swear 3/4's of his baskets in his prime were post throw in's and throw downs. i'm sure someone will come in and pretend it was his athletic ability, but when you're that big over most of the competition(talking height/weight/girth) its not that hard to be that dominant IMO.

its something i'll always take away from Shaq's greatness because imo the game was easier for him than someone like MJ, iin terms of ability to dominate.

wtf? so.....

But when you're that quick, tall, strong, and have huge hands compared to most of the competition, its not that hard to be that dominant IMO.

Its something I'll always take away from MJ's greatness because imo the game was easier for him than someone like ____ iin terms of ability to dominate.

[Godzuki]

wtf? so.....

But when you're that quick, tall, strong, and have huge hands compared to most of the competition, its not that hard to be that dominant IMO.

Its something I'll always take away from MJ's greatness because imo the game was easier for him than someone like ____ iin terms of ability to dominate.


a guard can't dominate with just physical ability alone. only a Center if he's so big and can't be guarded in the post, he doesn't even need a skill set than catching and jumping to dunk/lay up.

guards have to shake, dribble, and drive, AND be able to knock down jumpers. they HAVE to have game to be good. all around game.

its like a 6'5 player playing against 5 footers. he doesn't really need skills to score. it doesn't work the other way around.

[kizut1659]

One side claim that it's because Shaq was too quick and strong for the opposition defense.

Another side claim that it's because Shaq got away with a lot of offensive fouls.

So which one is it?

both? there was no way to stop him cause he just shoved you out of the way to get within a foot of the basket and then dunked or made a layup. I personally think a lot of this WAS offensive fouling.

[eliteballer]

Got away with offensive fouls? If they called Shaq like a normal player the other team's bigs would have all fouled out after one half in every game.

[DetroitPiston]

Size and the fact that he was able to move so quick despite the fact that he was the size of a tank.

[Da Heroic One]

He threatened to send crips to every center he was going to face.

[Godzuki]

both? there was no way to stop him cause he just shoved you out of the way to get within a foot of the basket and then dunked or made a layup. I personally think a lot of this WAS offensive fouling.


i don't even remember anybody ever standing in there takiing Shaq's charges. i swear most people would just run out of the way once he got post and the ball lobbed in.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The fact that he was freakishly large ... and thats about it.

[bagelred]

Offensive fouls. Without that.....you get Michael Olowakandi.



close thread.

[Samurai Swoosh]

several very consistent post moves and counters for them
Please, dude ...

Give me a break.

Average at best.

Show me video displaying Shaq's ridiculous moves and counter moves.

Give you a hint, you won't find them. He was pure power. Sure he had decent athleticism and foot work for a man his size, but really the guy just elbowed people and bullied them close to the basket. Once that was done, he was done. As we could see from the 2005 playoffs onwards.

He also was in his prime at the start of the 2000s when, like now, the Center position was almost non-existent through out the league.

[cteach111]

the question is what made Shaq so dominant?

If you gave Shaq even 1/8 of his skill, he'd still command double teams. Skill is important, but it's not what made Shaq the monster he was. His presence on the floor pretty much changed how you had to play the game.

Dwight is the perfect example. He has a fairly good skill set and he's dominant to a point... yet teams are beating the Magic because Dwight doesn't command double teams in the sense Shaq could. Imagine even Dwight's limited skillset in Shaq's body. He could get in the paint any time he wanted to.

Someone should post a pic of how massive Shaq was compared to Dwight.

[bdreason]

A combination of speed, size, and strength that the NBA may never see again. Combined with a good skillset, and a solid understanding of the game, and you have Shaq; one of the top 10 players to ever play the game.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Please, dude ...

Give me a break.

Average at best.

Show me video displaying Shaq's ridiculous moves and counter moves.

Give you a hint, you won't find them. He was pure power. Sure he had decent athleticism and foot work for a man his size, but really the guy just elbowed people and bullied them close to the basket. Once that was done, he was done. As we could see from the 2005 playoffs onwards.

He also was in his prime at the start of the 2000s when, like now, the Center position was almost non-existent through out the league.

:oldlol: at you hating on Shaq again with some garbage.

I've made many posts highlighting Shaq's footwork and moves, go dig up one of my old posts where I did. Hell, watch game 1 of both the 2000 and 2001 finals for example.

Shaq's footwork is praised by many in basketball for a reason. Aside from Hakeem Olajuwon, what center in the last 20 years was clearly better than Shaq in terms of footwork and back to the basket moves?

[Force]

As a whole, Shaq was ripped off by refs his whole career. CONSTANTLY fouled even without the ball. 2 hands in the back was never called. Always hacked and hit. It didn't matter. Never in any sport has there been somebody his size with footwork, athleticism and speed like him. He also has a very high basketball IQ and was always a team player.

Did you hear Phil Jacksons comments on him retiring? He reiterated that he was so good the NBA had to change the rules because of him. That is the definition of domination...the sport of basketball changed it's rules. think about that.

[bdreason]

You people claiming Shaq dominated because of his size alone must be delusional. Shaq had a very solid skillset; a few nice post moves, fantastic footwork, and great vision and hands.

Here is Shaq 10 years past his prime making one of the top PF/C defenders in the league look like a chump;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxZQw-dEydU

[phoenix_bladen]

someone post a GIF of shaq dunking on chris dudley and we'll show you all why he was dominate

[Samurai Swoosh]

Shaq's footwork is praised by many in basketball for a reason. Aside from Hakeem Olajuwon, what center in the last 20 years was clearly better than Shaq in terms of footwork and back to the basket moves?
Hakeem, D. Rob, Ewing, Kareem, Wilt, Dwight (now)?

Yea they praise him for being able to move his feet at his size.

They don't say he had some of the best footwork and post moves of all-time for his position.

:oldlol:

[Godzuki]

meh i don't think Shaq's footwork was anything special. it doesn't take that much footwork to get post, a lob iin, and dunk the ball. that was 95% of his baskets in his prime. i can do that on a little level against middle schoolers and its not like i need footwork practice to do it.

i'd think post moves requires a lot more foot work, like turning your foot in to set up a spin, and doing dream shake, or really any type of post moves. which Shaq didn't really develop or have until later in his career.

[Nastradamus]

his size. i swear 3/4's of his baskets in his prime were post throw in's and throw downs. i'm sure someone will come in and pretend it was his athletic ability, but when you're that big over most of the competition(talking height/weight/girth) its not that hard to be that dominant IMO.

its something i'll always take away from Shaq's greatness because imo the game was easier for him than someone like MJ, iin terms of ability to dominate.

Yah, MJ didn't have a size advantag or anything, uh.......

There are lots of big bodies in the NBA. Its not like you can dump it in to Perkins or something, who is much bigger and stronger than his counterparts, and get a dunk or easy basket. Shaq had very good quickness, athelticism and skill in that big body of his. That COMBINATION, is what makes him great. Shoot, use Dwight Howard if you don't like Perkins as an example. Dwight has never dominated on Shaq's level despite having a similar size/strength advantage over defenders and being more athletic.

[Godzuki]

You people claiming Shaq dominated because of his size alone must be delusional. Shaq had a very solid skillset; a few nice post moves, fantastic footwork, and great vision and hands.

Here is Shaq 10 years past his prime making one of the top PF/C defenders in the league look like a chump;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxZQw-dEydU


he had barely any skill set in his prime when they were winning championships. if anything it was still developing, but he mostly dominated based on size/strength alone. almost everything else people are citing he had took a big backseat to those features.

he's got post moves now, he had them in Miami, but he did not have those same post moves or as refined when he was winning championships with the Lakers.

[Nastradamus]

meh i don't think Shaq's footwork was anything special. it doesn't take that much footwork to get post, a lob iin, and dunk the ball. that was 95% of his baskets in his prime. i can do that on a little level against middle schoolers and its not like i need footwork practice to do it.

i'd think post moves requires a lot more foot work, like turning your foot in to set up a spin, and doing dream shake, or really any type of post moves. which Shaq didn't really develop or have until later in his career.

Again, like I said above, he did have great footwork and quickness and thats what made him so much more dominant than a Ewing or Dwight Howard who never developed post moves.

[KevinNYC]

What made Shaq so dominant in his prime?

Same things that made Toyko fear Godzilla. Luckily for the other players, the NBA outlawed Firebreath in Wilt's second year.

[bdreason]

Shaq showing better footwork than 99% of the NBA today, while posterizing one of the best defenders of all-time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLDXw5lC-LM



Shaq with a beautiful baseline drop step hook off the glass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yrfYhofNaM



Shaq displaying his one-foot running hook across the lane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dys2vOknx0

[DRose1899]

Again, like I said above, he did have great footwork and quickness and thats what made him so much more dominant than a Ewing or Dwight Howard who never developed post moves.
Wut?

[Force]

Pete Newell. You know who he is?

He was the worlds experts on big men. Go google him and see what he said about Shaq. He said his footwork is remarkable and one of a kind.

Saying that Shaqs footwork wasn't special is like saying Shaq was a good free throw shooter. Easy no brainer. Shaqs footwork was f'n unreal.

[ILLsmak]

he had barely any skill set in his prime when they were winning championships. if anything it was still developing, but he mostly dominated based on size/strength alone. almost everything else people are citing he had took a big backseat to those features.

he's got post moves now, he had them in Miami, but he did not have those same post moves or as refined when he was winning championships with the Lakers.

Ok.......

People forget that dunking is a post move? It's kind of like saying that all Amare could do was dunk, but you have to GET to the HOOP.Just because he finished with a dunk shouldn't diminish the fact that he had to make a move to get there.

Dwight is quicker than Shaq and the average C is smaller now, and yet you don't see Dwight getting dunks like Shaq did. Why? He gets dunks, but Shaq could get a dunk whenever he wanted to.

-Smak

[Samurai Swoosh]

Dwight Howard who never developed post moves.
I used to get on Howard's case but did you see him this year? He actually developed very legit post moves.

[Godzuki]

Yah, MJ didn't have a size advantag or anything, uh.......

There are lots of big bodies in the NBA. Its not like you can dump it in to Perkins or something, who is much bigger and stronger than his counterparts, and get a dunk or easy basket. Shaq had very good quickness, athelticism and skill in that big body of his. That COMBINATION, is what makes him great. Shoot, use Dwight Howard if you don't like Perkins as an example. Dwight has never dominated on Shaq's level despite having a similar size/strength advantage over defenders and being more athletic.


you can only pretend that if he was beating and getting around people 1v1 off the dribble and the front side, but he wasn't. he scored most of his baskets from the post boxing out with bis body and lob in's, then finishing dunks.

i don't really get your MJ statement, just know that guards can't dominate without skills in bball. if you're 6 foot, and a 5 foot kid with no game is playing against you how do you fear him? flip it around, with a 6 footer with no game, and a 5 footer with skills, it'll still be almost impossible for him to stop that 6 footer from rebounding or scoring. even on the playground if someone is way bigger/taller than everyone else but the worst bball player there, he will still probably contribute the most from his size alone. to me its a microcosm example of Shaq and his domination.

[DRose1899]

bleh forget it, the dribble is too fecking gewd.

[Godzuki]

Ok.......

People forget that dunking is a post move? It's kind of like saying that all Amare could do was dunk, but you have to GET to the HOOP.Just because he finished with a dunk shouldn't diminish the fact that he had to make a move to get there.

Dwight is quicker than Shaq and the average C is smaller now, and yet you don't see Dwight getting dunks like Shaq did. Why? He gets dunks, but Shaq could get a dunk whenever he wanted to.

-Smak


its not that hard to get to the rim when you have post. its like a step and dunk. how is it hard? if he's putting it on the floor, or has to get around his man its hard. but getting lob in's with size advantage is NOT hard to finish whatsoever.

[Godzuki]

Again, like I said above, he did have great footwork and quickness and thats what made him so much more dominant than a Ewing or Dwight Howard who never developed post moves.


Shaq didn't have much post moves in his prime tho. they got better as he aged.

he was athletic and quick for his size, relatively speaking to the other ridiculously slow Centers out there, but it was his size more than anything. i don't really get how you all pretend his quickness was as much a contributor when he wasn't out-quicking anybody to score.

[bdreason]

its not that hard to get to the rim when you have post. its like a step and dunk. how is it hard? if he's putting it on the floor, or has to get around his man its hard. but getting lob in's with size advantage is NOT hard to finish whatsoever.


Why isn't Eddy Curry dominating the league?

Just push everyone out of the way and dunk, right?


:roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hakeem, D. Rob, Ewing, Kareem, Wilt, Dwight (now)?

Yea they praise him for being able to move his feet at his size.

They don't say he had some of the best footwork and post moves of all-time for his position.

:oldlol:

I said in the last 20 years. And LOL @ Wilt having as good footwork and back to the basket moves as Shaq, same with Robinson, Ewing and Dwight.

Go watch footage of Shaq's footwork and then Wilt's then get back to me.

Dwight has made great improvements, and I'm one of his biggest fans on the board, but this is literally the first time i've heard anyone put his footwork on par with Shaq's.

Robinson's footwork was average and he was never a great back to the basket player. He was a great scorer due to his face up jumper, quickness, unrivaled ability to run the floor at his size and ability to drive to the basket, not his footwork and back to the basket game.

Ewing was one of my favorite players growing up, but sorry, he was much more predictable, had 2 moves and no true counters for them as he wasn't great with fakes. One was the fadeaway and the other was that running move or "3 step move". He was nowhere near as fluid as Shaq in terms of footwork either.

[Godzuki]

Ok.......

People forget that dunking is a post move? It's kind of like saying that all Amare could do was dunk, but you have to GET to the HOOP.Just because he finished with a dunk shouldn't diminish the fact that he had to make a move to get there.

Dwight is quicker than Shaq and the average C is smaller now, and yet you don't see Dwight getting dunks like Shaq did. Why? He gets dunks, but Shaq could get a dunk whenever he wanted to.

-Smak


dunking is NOT a post move. it could be the finishing end of a post move, but a post moves implies pivots, fade aways, etc...not getting lob in's and dunks.

i mean i guess its sort of a gray line since getting post can be considered a 'post move', but to me a post move is actually a set of moves to fake your opponent and score.

[Godzuki]

Why isn't Eddy Curry dominating the league?

Just push everyone out of the way and dunk, right?


:roll:

Curry was never as big as Shaq. not to mention he was soft, didn't like contact, and his game was mostly short post J's.

thats a terrible comparison.

[GOBB]

Shaq was dominant in his prime because he used his elbows to clear out defenders so he could dunk on them.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hey Samurai Swoosh.... Game 1 of the 2000 finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k

Check out the footwork at 0:44 and the soft touch with the hook, nice footwork again at 0:59, good ball fake and fadeaway with the soft touch at 1:06, Shaq hits a faceup jumper at 1:12, jump hook off the glass at 1:32, Shaq's signature turnaround at 1:37, great drop step and fake at 2:13, nice move again at 4:11

Game 1 of the 2001 Finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0

Check out the move at 0:10 he completely fooled Mutombo, Shaq takes Deke off the dribble at 0:42 and draws the foul, another great move at 1:20 with a jump hook off the glass, check out the Olajuwon-esque move at 2:06 to freeze Mutombo as Shaq converts for the and 1.

You really seem ridiculous right now and these are just a few plays from 2 games.

[PHILA]

Shaq was dominant in his prime because he used his elbows to clear out defenders so he could dunk on them. The Spokesman-Review - May 12, 1997 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qrQpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jPEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6610,2712911&dq)

'Figuratively speaking, Shaquille O'Neal said he used to look up to Wilt Chamberlain. Not any more. O'Neal was apprised of comments Chamberlain made about him last week on ESPN's "Up Close," and responded with some harsh words of his own.

"Wilt Chamberlain was a great player," O'Neal said, "Give him his respect. But Wilt Chamberlain can kiss my ass."

The former Lakers center, appearing on the show to promote his new book, said Bullets center Gheorge Muresan may have more to offer as a player than O'Neal.

"As they call fouls today," Chamberlain said, "Shaq gets away with what I consider murder. I mean, I would think when you dip your shoulder and run over the top of the guy, and the foul is called on the guy who's laying on the floor, you're getting away with something. So Shaq is allowed to score some points that maybe he wouldn't (otherwise) get."

"But if you made it a straight-up situation, and gave the same rules and regulations to Shaq that you give to Gheorge Muresan.... Muresan has a better touch around the basket, he can score more points."

O'Neal said he didn't see the show, but when asked if he had, he replied: "Was Wilt doggin' me again?"

"I'd average 85 on Wilt, then and now," O'Neal said. "I thought certain people were mentors. I'm glad I know who my real friends are."


*Yeah. The referees.'

[Samurai Swoosh]

Shaq was dominant in his prime because he used his elbows to clear out defenders so he could dunk on them.
This ...

He used his elbows so much.

He tried it this year, and they finally started calling it. He had this confused look on his face like he didn't know what he was doing.

C'mon son ... league was probably like ... you're not a superstar anymore, we're not letting you do this all day.

:oldlol:

[ThaSwagg3r]

Skill, Athleticism, Strength, Size, and most importantly ATTITUDE. The guy wanted to be dominant and destroy and embarrass the hell out of opposing centers. He had one of the best killer instincts of all-time.

[PHILA]

NY Times - June 20, 2001 (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/20/sports/sports-of-the-times-graceful-game-is-robbed-of-its-finesse.html?src=pm)


Sports of The Times; Graceful Game Is Robbed Of Its Finesse


THE single most striking moment in the N.B.A. finals was not Allen Iverson, the Sixers' irrepressible guard, scoring on a big shot in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Nor was it Kobe Bryant, the Lakers' legend-in-progress, coolly sweeping along the baseline for a gorgeous up-and-under lay-in, or Derek Fisher or Robert Horry sinking improbable and game-deciding 3-point shots from what seemed as far away as Saskatchewan.

No, the single most striking moment, the one that underscored the wrongheaded ends the National Basketball Association will go to in its attempt to shore up television ratings and fan interest, came in the finale, Game 5. It was when 7-foot-1 Shaquille O'Neal, all 320 ironbound pounds of him, put his formidable shoulder into the breastbone of the only slightly less formidable Dikembe Mutombo, all 7 feet 2 inches and 260 pounds of him, and lifted him off the ground as if he were a sack of onions.

The 20,000 or so fans in the First Union Center in Philadelphia and the millions of television viewers witnessed the ridiculous sight of the mighty Mutombo, his long legs dangling, riding piggyback on Shaq. The only people who didn't see this sight, or, rather, ignored it, were the referees, all six eyes of them. No foul was called. When Shaq shed Dikembe, he scored an easy hoop.

According to Hoyle, as well as the written rules of the N.B.A., such contact should have elicited a whistle; either O'Neal nailed Mutombo, or Dikembe had erected an illicit roadblock in Shaq's path.

There is now so much pushing, banging and raw ramming around the basket in the N.B.A., so much less finesse, which from the time of Dr. Naismith gave basketball its charm, its cachet, its unmatched beauty, that it seems a totally different game from the one so many of us remember, or seem to remember.

The Shaq Hoist was the quintessential moment of the finals, and it illustrated what post play in basketball has evolved into: hockey, or the World Wrestling Federation, and sometimes both. It was the culmination of what the league has done to some of the basic, longstanding and accepted rules of the game: the league has watered down these rules to such a degree that the game has changed drastically right before our red-blotched eyes (remember, the games went past midnight in the East).

I thought, maybe it's just me, maybe after some 50 years of delighting in basketball, I just didn't remember the way it used to be. Wasn't George Mikan famous for his strength as well as his hook shot? And wasn't Wilt equally renowned for his muscles as well as his thunderous dunks?

''The game has changed,'' said Willis Reed, the Hall of Famer and former Knick center who is now a senior vice president with the Nets. He played against Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell and Nate Thurmond and Wayne Embry and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the 1960's and 70's.

''It has always been physical but, yes, it has become more physical,'' Reed said. ''Russell blocked shots with finesse, and Wilt used his height more than his muscle to get his points and rebounds. A lot of those plays today would have been called fouls when I played. I imagine some decisions by the league now, some rules changes, will be made.''

http://nytimes.perfectmarket.com/pm/images/pixel.gif
http://nytimes.perfectmarket.com/pm/images/pixel.gif
Oscar Robertson, the point guard extraordinaire and one of the best players in the history of basketball, agreed that the game had changed, and not necessarily for the better.

''I think it began with Michael Jordan, or maybe even Julius Erving before him, when the league began to relax the rules on traveling when they went in for dunk shots,'' Robertson said. ''The league did it, and does it, to accommodate the stars. You see guys not taking just two or three steps to the basket, I've seen six! Good players don't need that. Good players always make adjustments.''

Neither Reed nor Robertson live in the past. They said they respected and admired the skills of the current generation of N.B.A. players. They marveled at O'Neal's quickness to the basket and his dexterity around it. ''And Kobe Bryant, as soon as he masters the post-up and turnaround shots, well, there's no telling just how good he will be,'' Robertson said.

But why take such a tough but graceful game and make it ludicrous, like, say, Stone Cold Steve Austin grappling Goldberg? Because the league officials are frightened that the ratings have been going down. But maybe one reason for that is the game has deteriorated because the rules are not enforced. The league thinks fans want to see this stuff, just as hockey owners don't stop the fighting because they believe it draws fans. Maybe it's a lure for hockey hounds, but it has never been so for basketball buffs.

In Section II, 2, of the Rules of the N.B.A., it reads: ''If a defensive player or offensive player has established a position on the floor and his opponent initiates contact that results in the dislodging of the opponent, a foul should be called IMMEDIATELY. (The upper case appears on the rules page.)

The rules also call for a ''two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.'' It is a good rule, as is the one disallowing tank maneuvers around the basket, and, when disregarded, enhances nothing but mockery for an otherwise compelling game.

[taucesays]

You have to be Kobe's wife to think Shaq had no skills in his prime. :facepalm some of the people here

[Godzuki]

Skill, Athleticism, Strength, Size, and most importantly ATTITUDE. The guy wanted to be dominant and destroy and embarrass the hell out of opposing centers. He had one of the best killer instincts of all-time.

but he was also a lazy fat ass, sitting out constantly with a hurt big toe, that the Lakers had to push and push to get into shape like they were his parent.

a lot of stuff always gets exaggerated tho in hindsight.

[Bring-Your-Js]

You have to be Kobe's wife to think Shaq had no skills in his prime. :facepalm some of the people here

:oldlol:

I'm loving all the Chamberlain quotes on Shaq and several unflattering remarks he made about Michael Jordan as well. Delicious Insecurity, My Dude.

[Samurai Swoosh]

:oldlol:

I'm loving all the Chamberlain quotes on Shaq and several unflattering remarks he made about Michael Jordan as well. Delicious Insecurity, My Dude.
Kareem, Oscar Robertson have all made similar remarks.

Insecure, too?

[boxclever]

You have to be Kobe's wife to think Shaq had no skills in his prime. :facepalm some of the people here
I'm mad at some of the posts in here trying to discredit Shaq. Dude wasn't just a big lump, he had incredible speed for his size and a very high skill set. Anyone who says otherwise clearly did not see him play or are just haters. Whatever the case, it's disgusting to come on a basketball forum and read so many ignorant & misinformed posts.

[Godzuki]

I'm mad at some of the posts in here trying to discredit Shaq. Dude wasn't just a big lump, he had incredible speed for his size and a very high skill set. Anyone who says otherwise clearly did not see him play or are just haters. Whatever the case, it's disgusting to come on a basketball forum and read so many ignorant & misinformed posts.


high skill set? ughh.

if anything he got by on physical body more than anyone in the history of the NBA. then again he is/was a freak, and its nothing to be ashamed of, since it is what it is.

i would hope having a high skill set would include being able to make a jumper from 3 yds out, or at least have somewhat of a ft shot whatsoever.

[Samurai Swoosh]

high skill set? ughh.

if anything he got by on physical body more than anyone in the history of the NBA. then again he is/was a freak, and its nothing to be ashamed of, since it is what it is.

i would hope having a high skill set would include being able to make a jumper from 3 yds out, or at least have somewhat of a ft shot whatsoever.
Thank you.

Jesus, it is just that hard to admit he got by on his freak-ish physical nature?

It's true.

He wasn't some ridiculously skilled center. No matter what his homers want you to believe (ShaqAttack, Bring-Your-Js, etc)

Guy couldn't defend a pick and roll with that "foot work" to save his life.

Aka LAZY

[Bring-Your-Js]

Thank you.

Jesus, it is just that hard to admit he got by on his freak-ish physical nature?

It's true.

He wasn't some ridiculously skilled center. No matter what his homers want you to believe (ShaqAttack, Bring-Your-Js, etc)

Guy couldn't defend a pick and roll with that "foot work" to save his life.

Aka LAZY

When did I ever say he didnt get by on (mostly) freakish athleticism/stature? Basketball is an ATHLETIC competition. It's silly to cry foul over it.

That's like Kobe stans saying if only he had Jordan's hands and first step explosion. Uhh... :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

When did I ever say he didnt get by on (mostly) freakish athleticism/stature? Basketball is an ATHLETIC competition. It's silly to cry foul over it.
No one is crying foul over it.

Simply stating that if you were to break down the percentage of what made Shaq so dominant it would be 90% for physical reasons.

No one in the league was big enough to even have a chance to stop him.

It's the same reason why people shrug off Wilt's accomplishments. He was a freak of nature, ahead of his time physically.

But at least in Wilt's later years there was more competition physically for him at his position.

Shaq didn't even dominate like Wilt did with similar physical competitive advantages.

To act like Shaq was as successful as he was due to skill makes me break out in laughter. Not to say he didn't have any skills, because he did ... but with out the menacing physical size, Shaq is average at best anything he did.


That's like Kobe stans saying if only he had Jordan's hands and first step explosion. Uhh... :oldlol:
Kind of similar, but not really ...

Read above.

[Smoke117]

Who cares why he was so dominant? That is irrelevant. That he was dominant is all that matters, but have fun to all of you trying to bring him down as if that changes any of his accomplishments.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

That's all you need in the NBA, to be considered one of the greatest, a big body and someone to lub in passes for easy dunks. Yup, that simple. Are you ****ing kidding me?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Who cares why he was so dominant?.
The OP ... he asked the question. We answered. Why so defensive?

[Bring-Your-Js]

Who cares why he was so dominant? That is irrelevant. That he was dominant is all that matters, but have fun to all of you trying to bring him down as if that changes any of his accomplishments.

This.

Production is the name of the game for me. I'm not going to engage in a debate over topics I may not even disagree with or ever refuted (i.e. lack of work ethic, physical dominance over competitors, etc.).

[Samurai Swoosh]

Production is the name of the game for me. I'm not going to engage in a debate over topics I may not even disagree with or ever refuted (i.e. lack of work ethic, physical dominance over competitors, etc.).
You posted in this thread, though ...

:oldlol:

[Smoke117]

The OP ... he asked the question. We answered. Why so defensive?

Well, because just like 90% of posts here on insidehoops the only position anyone wants to take is a negative one to bring a players accomplishments down. It's getting ridiculous how hateful this board is.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Well, because just like 90% of posts here on insidehoops the only position anyone wants to take is a negative one to bring a players accomplishments down. It's getting ridiculous how hateful this board is.
Then stop crying if you don't like it, delete your account and bounce.

[TheCorporation]

You can't "teach" 7'1 300lb with tenacious speed while attacking the rim at will.

[ThaSwagg3r]

but he was also a lazy fat ass, sitting out constantly with a hurt big toe, that the Lakers had to push and push to get into shape like they were his parent.

a lot of stuff always gets exaggerated tho in hindsight.
He could get away with being out of shape unlike 99% of the players in the NBA. There wasn't much the guy could have improved and worked on anyways. The fact that he was still able to win his 3rd championship despite being out of shape goes to show you his greatness if anything.

Yea he did sit out of weak injuries during the regular season, but he showed up in the playoffs, a.k.a when it matters the most. He was reliable in the post season because it mattered.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, Samurai Swoosh, neither Oscar or Kareem said things similar to Wilt's statement that Gheorghe Muresan was better than Shaq. Wilt said many ridiculous things such as "I'd love to play today, I'd average 70 ppg", funny how Wilt's opinion is supposedly credible when he makes ridiculous statements about Shaq, yet I bet you'd say he's talking out of his ass when he made all of the statements he did about Jordan.

Wilt himself seems insecure, so does Shaq for that matter, and Oscar seems like a bitter egomaniac whose incredibly biased towards his era. By the way, what did you think of Oscar saying that Lebron is better than Jordan?

Funny how you discredit Shaq for having a physical advantage yet I don't hear you doing the same for Jordan who had 3 or so inches and a strength advantage vs the majority of shooting guards he faced during his prime.

Only an idiot would dispute that Shaq's size is a big reason why he was so great, but only an idiot would say that's the only reason as well.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No, Samurai Swoosh, neither Oscar or Kareem said things similar to Wilt's statement that Gheorghe Muresan was better than Shaq.
Wilt didn't say he was better than Shaq ...

I was asking the poster about Oscar and Kareem having made similar insecure statements regarding Jordan.

And where did I say I was agreeing with Wilt's comments?

:oldlol:


Funny how you discredit Shaq for having a physical advantage yet I don't hear you doing the same for Jordan who had 3 or so inches and a strength advantage vs the majority of shooting guards he faced during his prime.
Jordan was 6'5 ... you're telling me the average SG in his era was 6'2?

:oldlol:

And to even compare Jordan's physical advantages to Shaq's physical advantages would be literally the most idiotic thing I've ever read on these boards.


Only an idiot would dispute that Shaq's size is a big reason why he was so great, but only an idiot would say that's the only reason as well.
Are you insinuating I said that? Because I didn't. Was just saying the majority reason Shaq was the player he was ... was honestly due to his overwhelming size. Not his overwhelming nuanced skills.

:oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

but he was also a lazy fat ass, sitting out constantly with a hurt big toe, that the Lakers had to push and push to get into shape like they were his parent.
QFT

[Smoke117]

Swoosh, you are such an annoying little c.unt. You would say anything to raise Jordan up and bring down everyone else. When Pippen said Lebron might end up being the greatest of all time over your deity you probably nearly had an heart attack. Every one of your opinions is worthless.

[dallaslonghorn]

Who cares why he was so dominant? That is irrelevant. That he was dominant is all that matters, but have fun to all of you trying to bring him down as if that changes any of his accomplishments.

:oldlol: at all these people grading on a curve.

Anyone who says Shaq didn't have skills doesn't know anything about playing in the post. 95% of the bigs in the NBA would kill for his footwork and passing ability.

[bizil]

the fact that he was unguardable in his prime. You couldn't put one guy on him and expect him to be stopped. even double teams rarely stopped him as he would find open shooters/cutters or even overpowered doubles. You can't bring a small to double, he would just shed those cats with those explosive elbows.

-His speed and size will never again be seen in the combo in which he had.
-His post game coming into the L was polished.
-His footwork was outstanding.
-He demanded the ball.
-He would pass out, and repost immediately with even deeper post position (I don't see any big who does this today).
-His passing gets a solid grade A.
-Willing passer to his shooters or cutters.
-He KNEW he was the best and went out on gameday to PROVE it.
-He played with players who enabled him to be dominant
-He wanted to kill opposing players
-He is the MDE, nuff said

Being as good as Shaq was takes more than the skill he had, he also had the mindset in which made him great. He wanted to dominate, he wanted to crush you, he wanted to maime you, he wanted to win.

If he had a little stronger work ethic, he would clearly be seen as the best ever. But he was able to get by on being a little selfish in his workouts due to his extreme talent.

Way to tell it like it is about the Diesel! :cheers:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Swoosh, you are such an annoying little c.unt
http://planetill.com/forum/images/smilies/umad2.gif

[Jacks3]

Hard to be that dominant when you're missing 15+ games a year. That brings his value down a little.

[Wordup]

Built like a sumo wrestler.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol:


Jordan was 6'5 ... you're telling me the average SG in his era was 6'2?

:oldlol:

And to even compare Jordan's physical advantages to Shaq's physical advantages would be literally the most idiotic thing I've ever read on these boards.


Are you insinuating I said that? Because I didn't. Was just saying the majority reason Shaq was the player he was ... was honestly due to his overwhelming size. Not his overwhelming nuanced skills.

:oldlol:

Most shooting guards were listed in the 6'3"-6'4" range, 2-3 inches shorter than MJ. Some were listed shorter than that as well. Jordan may have very well been 6'5", but I'm sure a lot of those other shooting guards weren't as tall as they claimed. For example, we know that John Starks who was listed at 6'5" admitted to only being 6'2". It wouldn't surprise me if Jordan was 3 inches taller than the average SG in his prime.

And no, Jordan didn't have the same physical advantage, but he certainly had a big physical advantage himself, and shouldn't be discredited for it, just like Shaq shouldn't. And there's a difference between how impressive what you did with the gifts you had was and how good/effective of an NBA player you were.

And you did say that Shaq's footwork was "decent" for a man his size and then went onto cite ridiculous examples of guys who you claimed had as good or better footwork/back to the basket moves as Shaq. The only offensive skill Shaq was lacking in was shooting the ball mid-range and free throws, as far as passing, jump hooks, footwork, short turnarounds ect. he was well above average for a center.

Again, it's a combination of his size, athleticism and skills that made him so great, more size/athleticism, yes, but a large part of his success was due to his skills as well.

I know you know the game better than you show when you discuss Shaq, you clearly have a bias against him and can't discuss him objectively. Nobody says you have to like the guy, but if your dislike of him prevents you from discussing him objectively as has been shown in numerous threads, then you'd be better off not discussing him at all.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Most shooting guards were listed in the 6'3"-6'4" range, 2-3 inches shorter than MJ. Some were listed shorter than that as well. Jordan may have very well been 6'5", but I'm sure a lot of those other shooting guards weren't as tall as they claimed. For example, we know that John Starks who was listed at 6'5" admitted to only being 6'2". It wouldn't surprise me if Jordan was 3 inches taller than the average SG in his prime
Really dude? Really?

That's one SG. Jordan was like 6'4 maybe exactly 6'5.

Gerald Wilkins 6'6, Allan Houston 6'7, Craig Ehlo 6'5, Ron Harper 6'6, Joe Dumars 6'4 do you want me to continue?

At wors 2 inches smaller? And the point of putting Starks on Jordan ws because he had tremendous lateral quickness and leaping ability.

Jordan was athletic as hell, but so were his competitors.

This isn't even taking into account MASS, and WEIGHT ... which Shaq had the most advantage in using. Throwing his elbows and leveraging that huge frame on people. Almost to offensive foul levels. People want to say Shaq had to deal with hard fouls all the time ... well duh, the guy is King fukking Kong. He should be able to handle it. Especially how much he dished out using that massive frame as well.

The fact you're trying to make it sound like MJ has an EXTREME physical advantage over his direct competition in order to support your defending of Shaq shows how delusional your bias for Shaq may be the equivelent to my disdain for Shaq.

So how about we both sit these discussions on Shaq out, before you go ahead and start making Shaq out to be the GOAT.

I will sit these out, because nostalgia and overrating is running amuck in these threads on Shaq.

Dude might be even considering all he achieved, one of the biggest waste of natural wonders of all-time.

Insecure, immature, fat lazy piece of crap, who needed two top 3 players at their position ALL TIME, and two of the best closers of all-time to get it done.

And then went ring chasing, and continued his onslaught of immature put downs and self ego strokes. Giving himself nicknames, etc.

:rolleyes:

[Bring-Your-Js]

You posted in this thread, though ...

:oldlol:

Of course, the Chamberlain quotes were hilarious. Never that Shaq didn't underachieve.

And I dont think Kareem is insecure, his career and legacy arent based nearly solely on numbers like Wilt and he doesnt come off like a jackass hater to the same extent I.e Gheorge Muresan or "You ever see Jordan? he can't shoot outside of 15 feet" and all this other bullshit. And why? Simply cause dude's were both incredibly dominant/efficient on an Epic Level and he just cant have that, oh no.

[dallaslonghorn]

Really dude? Really?

That's one SG. Jordan was like 6'4 maybe exactly 6'5.

Gerald Wilkins 6'6, Allan Houston 6'7, Craig Ehlo 6'5, Ron Harper 6'6, Joe Dumars 6'4 do you want me to continue?

At wors 2 inches smaller? And the point of putting Starks on Jordan ws because he had tremendous lateral quickness and leaping ability.

Jordan was athletic as hell, but so were his competitors.

This isn't even taking into account MASS, and WEIGHT ... which Shaq had the most advantage in using. Throwing his elbows and leveraging that huge frame on people. Almost to offensive foul levels. People want to say Shaq had to deal with hard fouls all the time ... well duh, the guy is King fukking Kong. He should be able to handle it. Especially how much he dished out using that massive frame as well.

The fact you're trying to make it sound like MJ has an EXTREME physical advantage over his direct competition in order to support your defending of Shaq shows how delusional your bias for Shaq may be the equivelent to my disdain for Shaq.

So how about we both sit these discussions on Shaq out, before you go ahead and start making Shaq out to be the GOAT.

I will sit these out, because nostalgia and overrating is running amuck in these threads on Shaq.

Dude might be even considering all he achieved, one of the biggest waste of natural wonders of all-time.

Insecure, immature, fat lazy piece of crap, who needed two top 3 players at their position ALL TIME, and two of the best closers of all-time to get it done.

And then went ring chasing, and continued his onslaught of immature put downs and self ego strokes. Giving himself nicknames, etc.

:rolleyes:

You say all these things ... yet Shaq is indisputably a top 10 player of all-time. Shows you how great he really was doesn't it?

And honestly, from a personal standpoint, I can see why Shaq DIDN'T push himself all that hard. He was having a lot of fun. Obviously, we can't know this, but he seems like a happier person than MJ and my guess is he'll have a more fulfilling post-basketball career.

[Godzuki]

Well, because just like 90% of posts here on insidehoops the only position anyone wants to take is a negative one to bring a players accomplishments down. It's getting ridiculous how hateful this board is.


thats just not true. some of you want to glorify Shaq, and only praise him, while some of us are being realists. you're getting mad we're criticizing, or pointing out his weaknesses, and yes he definitely had some major weaknesses. If anything i've seen exaggeration after exaggeration in this thread, and nobody truly taking anything away from what Shaq accomplished, nor his domination, but just being realistic about his downsides as well.

none of you can seriously believe he had a great skill set. I mean that is crazy. he could barely hit a jumper. What other post big men have/had that little range? Granted he was dominant close to the rim, but nobody is saying he wasn't dominant there.

you just can't pretend to only say the good, or even exaggerated good, and not expect anyone to point to the bad. unless this was some Shaq feel good thread...either way it all comes down to a matter of opinion and you shouldn't get upset some people don't agree with yours.

[Samurai Swoosh]

You say all these things ... yet Shaq is indisputably a top 10 player of all-time. Shows you how great he really was doesn't it?
That's my point.

He should have been even BETTER.

He shouldn't even be ranked 4th or 5th all time among centers.

He should've been at the top of the list, EASY.

He underachieved. I put down Shaq, because I acknowledge his gifts and I wanted so much more out of him.

But I'm not going to sit here and blow smoke up his ass. People have done more with less.


And honestly, from a personal standpoint, I can see why Shaq DIDN'T push himself all that hard. He was having a lot of fun. Obviously, we can't know this, but he seems like a happier person than MJ and my guess is he'll have a more fulfilling post-basketball career.
How does MJ not seem happy? And you do realize Shaq's insecurity is as large as he is, right?

Yea I'm sure he will ... while hanging out with crips, ordering them to go kidnap people and hold them for ransom for sex tapes involving him.

:oldlol:

[Godzuki]

He could get away with being out of shape unlike 99% of the players in the NBA. There wasn't much the guy could have improved and worked on anyways. The fact that he was still able to win his 3rd championship despite being out of shape goes to show you his greatness if anything.

Yea he did sit out of weak injuries during the regular season, but he showed up in the playoffs, a.k.a when it matters the most. He was reliable in the post season because it mattered.


cmon man. Shaq couldn't have improved much? that is crazy :wtf:

i don't know if there was a player that could've improved more if he had a work ethic. his range was like layup/dunk territory, he couldn't make FT's, he was always out of shape, and he just seemed overall lazy. Granted Pat Riley got him in shape when he got to the Heat, but to say he couldn't have improved?

But yeah he was still dominant catching post passes and dunking/layups so i guess he didn't really have to work too hard at improving, but that is not to say he couldn't ahve been much better.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Really dude? Really?

That's one SG. Jordan was like 6'4 maybe exactly 6'5.

Gerald Wilkins 6'6, Allan Houston 6'7, Craig Ehlo 6'5, Ron Harper 6'6, Joe Dumars 6'4 do you want me to continue?

At wors 2 inches smaller? And the point of putting Starks on Jordan ws because he had tremendous lateral quickness and leaping ability.

Jordan was athletic as hell, but so were his competitors.

This isn't even taking into account MASS, and WEIGHT ... which Shaq had the most advantage in using. Throwing his elbows and leveraging that huge frame on people. Almost to offensive foul levels. People want to say Shaq had to deal with hard fouls all the time ... well duh, the guy is King fukking Kong. He should be able to handle it. Especially how much he dished out using that massive frame as well.

The fact you're trying to make it sound like MJ has an EXTREME physical advantage over his direct competition in order to support your defending of Shaq shows how delusional your bias for Shaq may be the equivelent to my disdain for Shaq.

So how about we both sit these discussions on Shaq out, before you go ahead and start making Shaq out to be the GOAT.

I will sit these out, because nostalgia and overrating is running amuck in these threads on Shaq.

Dude might be even considering all he achieved, one of the biggest waste of natural wonders of all-time.

Insecure, immature, fat lazy piece of crap, who needed two top 3 players at their position ALL TIME, and two of the best closers of all-time to get it done.

And then went ring chasing, and continued his onslaught of immature put downs and self ego strokes. Giving himself nicknames, etc.

:rolleyes:

Allan Houston was listed at 6'6", Dumars was listed at 6'3 And what about Jeff Hornacek and Hersey Hawkins? Both listed at 6'3".

And how many had verticals 40+ inches and MJ's quickness/body control? Very few were on MJ's level athletically.

No, he didn't have the same physical advantage that Shaq does, but in the end, he did have huge advantages in terms of athleticism over almost any other player at his position and a significant size advantage over the average shooting guard back then.

And it really doesn't matter, that's my point. Regardless of what advantages he had, he used them enough to be arguably the best to ever play the game(rivaled only by Kareem, imo). Just like Shaq is among the very best to play the game, he doesn't have a case over Jordan or Kareem, but he has a case vs anyone else.

[Godzuki]

:oldlol: at all these people grading on a curve.

Anyone who says Shaq didn't have skills doesn't know anything about playing in the post. 95% of the bigs in the NBA would kill for his footwork and passing ability.


passing ability? :wtf:

95% of the bigs had to actually learn moves to score at all, practice a jumper and further their range to even be a threat. I honestly don't get the hype on his skill set in this thread....

[dallaslonghorn]

passing ability? :wtf:

95% of the bigs had to actually learn moves to score at all, practice a jumper and further their range to even be a threat. I honestly don't get the hype on his skill set in this thread....

In his first 10 seasons in the NBA, Shaq averaged 2.8 assists. For comparison's sake, Pau Gasol, probably the top passing big in the modern NBA, has averaged 3.2 assists in his first 10 seasons. Shaq was a GREAT passer.

Being able to shoot a jumper also has nothing to do with footwork in the low-post; Shaq could score over both shoulders, step-through defenders and spin away from his man. Why would Shaq bother to learn a jumper anyways? If you can score 5-feet from the rim why try to score 10-feet from it?

[dallaslonghorn]

That's my point.

He should have been even BETTER.

He shouldn't even be ranked 4th or 5th all time among centers.

He should've been at the top of the list, EASY.

He underachieved. I put down Shaq, because I acknowledge his gifts and I wanted so much more out of him.

But I'm not going to sit here and blow smoke up his ass. People have done more with less.

That's my point ... You're grading on a curve. Just because he didn't reach his maximum potential doesn't mean he wasn't one of the 10 best players to EVER play this game.

Analogy: if a really smart kid slacked and got a 95 on a test while a really hard-working kid busted his a** to get a 94 ... the lazy kid got the higher grade. Period.




How does MJ not seem happy? And you do realize Shaq's insecurity is as large as he is, right?

Yea I'm sure he will ... while hanging out with crips, ordering them to go kidnap people and hold them for ransom for sex tapes involving him.

:oldlol:

Honestly, that kind of sounds like fun. But that's just me :oldlol:

Shaq has way to much money and way to many people between him and the crime to ever get in serious trouble, you know that.

[1Time4YourMind]

passing ability? :wtf:

95% of the bigs had to actually learn moves to score at all, practice a jumper and further their range to even be a threat. I honestly don't get the hype on his skill set in this thread....
if you are seriously doubting his passing ability then you have not watched prime shaq play, or you were just blind to it.

the triangle offense, which shaq was THE focal point of during that 3-peat run, emphasizes great passing and the ability to react to what the defense gives you. shaq was great in both aspects, which was the reason why the lakers were so good at executing the inside-outside threat.

[Godzuki]

In his first 10 seasons in the NBA, Shaq averaged 2.8 assists. For comparison's sake, Pau Gasol, probably the top passing big in the modern NBA, has averaged 3.2 assists in his first 10 seasons. Shaq was a GREAT passer.

Being able to shoot a jumper also has nothing to do with footwork in the low-post; Shaq could score over both shoulders, step-through defenders and spin away from his man. Why would Shaq bother to learn a jumper anyways? If you can score 5-feet from the rim why try to score 10-feet from it?


because he couldn't consistently score 5 ft from the rim either. the only thing he was consistent at were the dunks, layups, or getting fouled.

Gasol isn't a great passing big man either, better than Shaq, but not what i'd call great. Vlade was a really good big man passer, so was Sabonis.

[Godzuki]

if you are seriously doubting his passing ability then you have not watched prime shaq play, or you were just blind to it.

the triangle offense, which shaq was THE focal point of during that 3-peat run, emphasizes great passing and the ability to react to what the defense gives you. shaq was great in both aspects, which was the reason why the lakers were so good at executing the inside-outside threat.


he wasn't a great passer. the only way you could maybe say that is because the D collapsed so hard on him, its probably a lot easier to find the open man, but to say he was a great passer? cmon i'll never agree with that.

[dallaslonghorn]

because he couldn't consistently score 5 ft from the rim either. the only thing he was consistent at were the dunks, layups, or getting fouled.

Gasol isn't a great passing big man either, better than Shaq, but not what i'd call great. Vlade was a really good big man passer, so was Sabonis.

Aren't those the easiest shots in the game? If a player can get a dunk, a lay-up or a foul why would he bother doing anything else? Dominance > versatility.

Name a better passing big man in the NBA than Pau. Vlade and Sabonis are two of the best to ever do it. That's like saying someone isn't a great dunker because Vince and MJ were better.

[Godzuki]

Aren't those the easiest shots in the game? If a player can get a dunk, a lay-up or a foul why would he bother doing anything else? Dominance > versatility.

Name a better passing big man in the NBA than Pau. Vlade and Sabonis are two of the best to ever do it. That's like saying someone isn't a great dunker because Vince and MJ were better.


but Shaq couldn't always get that, and he at times tried short J's and stuff like that, where he usually missed.

i was just thinking of big men of that era. these days i don't know if any Centers really stand out all that much in passing, at least nobody is coming to me easy.

[wakencdukest]

First and foremost, Shaq was dominant because of his size and athleticism. He had raw power that had never been seen in the league. That's why I loved Shaq from the day I saw him in the Mcdonalds All American game. No player of his size and girth ever had the kind of speed and jumping ability that he had. Was he supremely skilled on the offensive end? No, but skilled more than most people think. Did he have a great shooting touch? No, but he knew how to get the ball in the basket. He was a great passer for a center, he had great footwork, and a killer instinct. I always liked Shaq for his sheer power. I liked seeing him knock people down and tear down rims. And I like how he developed offensive moves a few years into his career, instead of relying on the Dunk all the time. As for the offensive fouls, I believe for every elbow he gave, he probably received 2 hard fouls just because he was a lousy free throw shooter. Hell, I've seen plenty of players actually grab him by the bicep with both hands to try to stop him. Watch the youtube video that Shaqattack posted, that pretty much shows the spectrum of Shaqs skills.

[Big#50]

Shoulders and elbows. Travels and over the backs. 7'1 325 quick. That covers it.

[iamgine]

That's my point.

He should have been even BETTER.

He shouldn't even be ranked 4th or 5th all time among centers.

He should've been at the top of the list, EASY.

He underachieved. I put down Shaq, because I acknowledge his gifts and I wanted so much more out of him.

But I'm not going to sit here and blow smoke up his ass. People have done more with less.

A lot of great players underachieve to some degree though. No one really fulfill their perfect potential.

MJ could've done more had he not retired.

Bird could've done more if he didn't break his back mowing the lawn.

Magic could've done more if he didn't get HIV.

Players like Wilt, Hakeem, Robinson could've won more championships if they had better support. Wilt's impact could be a lot more epic if he learnt how to shoot FT like Yao.

[1Time4YourMind]

he wasn't a great passer. the only way you could maybe say that is because the D collapsed so hard on him, its probably a lot easier to find the open man, but to say he was a great passer? cmon i'll never agree with that.
LOL @ its easier, that is the most backward logic i've ever seen. if the d collapses on you i think it's pretty damn obvious that it is harder to make a pass because of all the pressure on you. your angle is 'ya there will be an open man all the time', as if you're playing a high school pick up game instead of the nba. passing to the open man while playing against a world-class defense that prepares for you each game requires preparation, the ability to read the defense (i.e. where the double is coming from), knowing your teammates spots, that is all IQ. and i think shaq did quite well with that during his run of dominance.

that's also like saying we shouldn't credit mj with being a great passer because he always drew heavy help/double D and it was 'so much easier to pass to the open man'. i mean, really?

the dude's career FG% is 0.582; his lowest FG for a single season is 0.557%. just fathom that for a second, especially in the context an era where we see gunslinging shotjackers go for 40% and win MVP.

SMH at guys who act like shaq's lack of a mid J results in a lack of skill. the reason why one develops certain aspects of one's offense is because of necessity. i think that fact should be obvious in itself. shaq was so dominant in the low post, why waste time developing a jumper that would pull him out of the post? don't other big men get criticized for doing the same exact thing? (*COUGH* EWING ROBINSON GARNETT *COUGH*)

for a guy to have arguably a top 3 dominant peak of all time, and for people to argue that he didn't possess skill? i don't buy it, sorry.

[the_wise_one]

The refs who don't call his offensive fouls.
Dude would've fouled out every game if everything was called correctly.

[the_wise_one]

The refs who don't call his offensive fouls.
Dude would've fouled out every game if everything was called correctly.

[Bring-Your-Js]

LOL @ its easier, that is the most backward logic i've ever seen. if the d collapses on you i think it's pretty damn obvious that it is harder to make a pass because of all the pressure on you. your angle is 'ya there will be an open man all the time', as if you're playing a high school pick up game instead of the nba. passing to the open man while playing against a world-class defense that prepares for you each game requires preparation, the ability to read the defense (i.e. where the double is coming from), knowing your teammates spots, that is all IQ. and i think shaq did quite well with that during his run of dominance.

that's also like saying we shouldn't credit mj with being a great passer because he always drew heavy help/double D and it was 'so much easier to pass to the open man'. i mean, really?

the dude's career FG% is 0.582; his lowest FG for a single season is 0.557%. just fathom that for a second, especially in the context an era where we see gunslinging shotjackers go for 40% and win MVP.

SMH at guys who act like shaq's lack of a mid J results in a lack of skill. the reason why one develops certain aspects of one's offense is because of necessity. i think that fact should be obvious in itself. shaq was so dominant in the low post, why waste time developing a jumper that would pull him out of the post? don't other big men get criticized for doing the same exact thing? (*COUGH* EWING ROBINSON GARNETT *COUGH*)

for a guy to have arguably a top 3 dominant peak of all time, and for people to argue that he didn't possess skill? i don't buy it, sorry.

And his FINALS FG% is 60%, an average of 29 ppg/13 rpg, over a 30 Game span on the game's biggest stage, facing 3 Defensive Players of the Year + doubles and triples.

The offensive foul argument is bogus considering perimeter stars commit multiple travels and get foul calls in their favor that are a mere fraction of the abuse this guy took himself.

[DJ Leon Smith]

The refs who don't call his offensive fouls.
Dude would've fouled out every game if everything was called correctly.

OK, let's play that game. Shaq's teams should have gone 82-0 every season because the other team would have every player foul out every game if it was called correctly at both ends. Guys would bounce off Shaq and there'd be no call only because he was that big and the contact wouldn't affect him as much as a regular size player.

[PHILA]

The refs who don't call his offensive fouls.
Dude would've fouled out every game if everything was called correctly.
Philadelphia Daily News - May 1999


On never fouling out in 14 years in the NBA:

"If I dipped my shoulder and did what Shaquille O'Neal does, it would have been an exercise in futility for me. You spend your whole life trying to learn a sport. And you try to learn it in a proper way. I'm from Philadelphia, and I had the greatest basketball players to mimic. And they taught me the correct ways and incorrect ways to play the game of basketball.


On his image as a player:

"There was this fear that I would completely annihilate the game. Me, a black man. Look magazine ran a cover that said: 'Can Basketball Survive Wilt Chamberlain?' I was going to destroy the game and they had to do something about that. I am the furthest from being a racist as you can be. But I think we have to understand what racism can do.

"[Michael] Jordan doesn't understand how fortunate he was that he came along in an era in which most people were willing to accept his greatness. And even helped to embellish his greatness. Because he was selling tickets and everything else. It was wonderful.

[3zazer1]

One side claim that it's because Shaq was too quick and strong for the opposition defense.

Another side claim that it's because Shaq got away with a lot of offensive fouls.

So which one is it?

His size, IQ, quickness and skillset. He was quicker than any 5-man that was in the leauge at that time.

[zabuza666]

it was his size, strength, and speed. It wasn't really a skill thing with Shaq that made him dominant.

Just think about it... Shaq is 300+ lbs and strong to overpower any player that dare plays him man-to-man. Teams were FORCED to double, even triple team him because he was just too big, too fast, and too strong. Heck, even in his over-the-hill days, he was still getting double teams because no one could deal with his size, strength, and speed.

That's really all it comes down to... he had no rival physically.

No skill? Have you seen his footwork

[bizil]

See when you make a GOAT list you factor talent, longevity being great, solo accolades, team accolades, and numbers. So when it comes to centers, Shaq is in the top four with Wilt, Russell, and Kareem in that sense. But as far as would I would take in a draft, Shaq, Hakeem, and Kareem would be my first three picks for big guys. Between those three it's arguable who to take first. But Diesel is the toughest to stop one on one. Kareem and Hakeem are so skilled in addition to being very good (Kareem) to great (Hakeem) on an athletic basis. So basically you have a GOAT criteria and a flat out who's the better player criteria. Two different things. Cause Bill Russell on a GOAT list is arguably the best center of all time. But as a player flat out, give me Shaq over Bill anyday. Or Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Moses, Robinson, and Ewing. Not a knock on Bill, but he didn't effect the game offensively like the other great bigs could. But for a GOAT list, ya Russell is arguably the best center ever.

[Bigsmoke]

he wins a lot back then.