Dirk Is Great, But Lets Take It Easy

[indiefan23]

The Dallas Mavericks are champions of the basketball world! They defeated the evil Miami Heat in 6 games to take the 2011 title on Miami's own floor! Dirk Nowtizki led a team of role players against a team with 2 and a half superstars and came out victorious! Dirk is the best scorer in the league and the best closer in the league! He should have been the league MVP! He's a top 15 player of all time!

Wait... what?

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2011/06/dirk-is-great-but-lets-take-it-easy.html

[adri41]

Boooooooooooooooo!

[NastaMaverick]

**** yo bitchass blog

[marion706]

http://www.gtfo.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/gtfo4.jpg

[Jacks3]

The majority don't have him in the top 15 though. Most have him in the top 20-25. So...

[DirkNowitzki41]

The Dallas Mavericks are champions of the basketball world! They defeated the evil Miami Heat in 6 games to take the 2011 title on Miami's own floor! Dirk Nowtizki led a team of role players against a team with 2 and a half superstars and came out victorious! Dirk is the best scorer in the league and the best closer in the league! He should have been the league MVP! He's a top 15 player of all time!

Wait... what?

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2011/06/dirk-is-great-but-lets-take-it-easy.html

du verruckt?

[DMAVS41]

The Dallas Mavericks are champions of the basketball world! They defeated the evil Miami Heat in 6 games to take the 2011 title on Miami's own floor! Dirk Nowtizki led a team of role players against a team with 2 and a half superstars and came out victorious! Dirk is the best scorer in the league and the best closer in the league! He should have been the league MVP! He's a top 15 player of all time!

Wait... what?

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2011/06/dirk-is-great-but-lets-take-it-easy.html

Stockton?
Thomas?

LOL....sorry. You lose all cred there.

Barkley?
Erving?
Garnett?

Definitely debatable at this point.

5 players in NBA history have led teams to 50 plus wins ten or more seasons in a row and won a title, mvp, and finals mvp.

Russell
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Dirk


...........

[ZMonkey11]

Stockton?
Thomas?

LOL....sorry. You lose all cred there.


What's wrong with Zeke in the top 20?

[dee-rose]

lol @ the idea of Stockton and Thomas being worse than Dirk. He really is being overrated.
:lol

[DMAVS41]

What's wrong with Zeke in the top 20?

I don't think he has an argument for top 20 for starters.

However, I was talking about ranking him over Dirk.

Why?

At worst they are equals.

[DMAVS41]

lol @ the idea of Stockton and Thomas being worse than Dirk. He really is being overrated.
:lol

Stockton?

The guy that played his entire career with one of the 20 best players ever and only made 2 finals. No titles.....and was a much worse playoff performer than Dirk.

There is absolutely no argument for Stockton over Dirk. Not one.

Dirk beats him in every area other than longevity....and even then its getting close because Dirk already has 11 great years....

[Rose]

:facepalm

[dee-rose]

Stockton?

The guy that played his entire career with one of the 20 best players ever and only made 2 finals. No titles.....and was a much worse playoff performer than Dirk.

There is absolutely no argument for Stockton over Dirk. Not one.

Dirk beats him in every area other than longevity....and even then its getting close because Dirk already has 11 great years....
It's not his fault that Malone is a degenerate choker. Stockton = best pure PG of all time. Are we forgetting that Dirk a bad defender and just an average rebounder or something? I love Dirk. The guy's awesome, but he's somewhere in 20-25 or 30, not the top 15.

[DMAVS41]

It's not his fault that Malone is a degenerate choker. Stockton = best pure PG of all time. Are we forgetting that Dirk a bad defender and just an average rebounder or something? I love Dirk. The guy's awesome, but he's somewhere in 20-25 or 30, not the top 15.

Where he ranks depends on the person.

But putting stockton over him is laughable at this point.

average rebounder?

over 10 a game for his career in the playoffs.

LOL

[dee-rose]

Where he ranks depends on the person.

But putting stockton over him is laughable at this point.

average rebounder?

over 10 a game for his career in the playoffs.

LOL
Where do you rank him then? Maybe I overrated Stockton, who is one of my favorite players ever, but it's not like you have no bias towards Dirk. Never averaged double digits through a season. He's gotten close though so I'll cut him some slack.

[blablabla]

some guys think his better than the big ticket

[DMAVS41]

Where do you rank him then? Maybe I overrated Stockton, who is one of my favorite players ever, but it's not like you have no bias towards Dirk. Never averaged double digits through a season. He's gotten close though so I'll cut him some slack.

I rank Dirk around 15 all time.

He's absolutely top 20 for sure. There is no way you can rank 20 other players over Dirk the way people do the rankings.

11 straight seasons of over 50 wins...a title, mvp, and finals mvp during that time.

Only Magic, Russell, Kareem, and Duncan have done that.

Dirk is 8th all time in ppg in the playoffs.

26/10/3 for his career in the playoffs.

Best elimination game player of the last 20 years.

Never lost a game 7 (5-0)...in 3 of those games Dirk had over 30 and 10.

Dirk is one of only like 5 superstars since 1975 to win a title without the help of an elite (all nba or top 15) 2nd option

I could go on and on. He's absolutely even with or ahead of guys like Malone and Barkley....and he's in that range of Pettit, KG, Erving.....


As for Stockton? Somewhere between 25 to 30 all time. There is no doubt stockton was a great player and one of the best ever, but there is really no standard or criteria you could use to rank him over Dirk.

Dirk has had more regular season and playoff success. Dirk has better numbers. Dirk has an MVP. Dirk has much better advanced stats.

And Dirk did it all rarely playing with a top 20 player in the league on his team. Stockton had a top 20 player of all time at his side for the majority of his career.

[knickswin]

some guys think his better than the big ticket

I think he is better than the big ticket

[RazorBaLade]

regardless of whether or not i agree with gino, can you not argue good vs bad? you match up stocktons failures vs dirks greatest moments, how about failures vs failures and successes vs successes? it would make it closer than youre tryin to make it

[DMAVS41]

regardless of whether or not i agree with gino, can you not argue good vs bad? you match up stocktons failures vs dirks greatest moments, how about failures vs failures and successes vs successes? it would make it closer than youre tryin to make it

how do you define failure and success?

Was 97 a success for the Jazz? They were favored to make the finals....and they lost.

How does that compare to the Mavs making it to the finals in 06 as huge underdogs to get out of the 2nd round.....and they lost in the finals?

Based on realistic expectations, Dirk would have less failures and more successes for sure.....especially considering Dirk and the Mavs have now over-achieved more often than they have under-achieved.

Did Stockton and Malone ever over-achieve really? I'd have to look in depth at it, but I do know they lost a lot of times as favorites. 95, 96, 99, and 01 come to mind.....and i'm sure there are more if I looked at it.

[rmt]

5 players in NBA history have led teams to 50 plus wins ten or more seasons in a row and won a title, mvp, and finals mvp.

Russell
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Dirk


...........

So MJ with his 6 titles, 6 Finals MVPs and 5 MVPs doesn't make this list because CHI didn't have 10 or more 50 plus seasons in a row. Way to cherry pick so Dirk join some arbitrary list with KAJ (6 MVPs), Russell (5 MVPs) and Magic and Duncan (3 Finals MVPs each).

The article is spot on - especially "he lacks certain things that most of those players in that upper echelon possess, such as a dominant impact on the defensive end. Or some other skill to fall back on when his shot isn't falling (in game 6, when he was busy going 4-21 through 3 quarters, what else was Dirk doing to try to impact the game? Not a whole lot)."

[DMAVS41]

So MJ with his 6 titles, 6 Finals MVPs and 5 MVPs doesn't make this list because CHI didn't have 10 or more 50 plus seasons in a row. Way to cherry pick so Dirk join some arbitrary list with KAJ (6 MVPs), Russell (5 MVPs) and Magic and Duncan (3 Finals MVPs each).

The article is spot on - especially "he lacks certain things that most of those players in that upper echelon possess, such as a dominant impact on the defensive end. Or some other skill to fall back on when his shot isn't falling (in game 6, when he was busy going 4-21 through 3 quarters, what else was Dirk doing to try to impact the game? Not a whole lot)."

Jordan doesn't make the list. Doesn't mean Dirk is better. What?

The article is not spot on at all. Nobody is comparing Dirk to Duncan or Hakeem all time.

Stockton? Thomas? Barkley? Malone? Erving? KG? These are all guys that are not clearly better than Dirk.

Dirk is a great defensive rebounder. He's also so good offensively with his shooting/scoring that his mere presence on the court is a benefit.

You want more? How about 1 of 4 guys that averaged 25/10 for his career in the playoffs...another arbitrary list?

How about 1 of 13 players in NBA history to have 10 all star appearances, a mvp, a title, and finals mvp....another arbitrary list?

Seems to me that Dirk is on a lot of those cherry picked lists....and he's done it playing with less help than any of the top 15 players of all time played with....much worse actually.

LOL........good luck having stockton lead a team to a title as the sole superstar.

[DMAVS41]

Lets discuss Dirk more in depth.

11 straight seasons of over 50 wins.
The 2nd best win percentage in the NBA since 1999 including the playoffs. Only the Spurs have won more games.

So his regular season success is elite. There is no debating that. And again, he's done it playing with overall less help than all of the guys that have had similar regular season success.

So lets talk about the playoffs

9th all time in free throws made
12th all time in free throw attempts
10th all time in free throw percentage
Holds the best playoff run free throw percentage of all time as his volume

11th all time in defensive rebounds
26th all time in total rebounds
29th all time in rebounds per game

8th all time in points per game


Now for the really good stuff:

Dirk's TS percentage is number 1 all time in the playoffs for any player to average over 25 points per game

Dirk has the 7th best PER in playoff history

Dirk averages the 5th most win shares per 48 in playoff history....behind only MJ, MIkan, Lebron, and Magic

Dirk is 14th all time in win shares in playoff history

Dirk is 7th all time in offensive win shares in playoff history

Dirk is 16th all time in offensive rating in playoff history


And there is a lot more......


You don't accomplish all of that by being a one dimensional player. Dirk has now played 11 quality years in the NBA and has the numbers and resume to match almost any player not in the top 12 all time.

He's easily a top 20 player and absolutely belongs in the discussion that pettit, erving, KG, barkley, and malone range as a player.

[indiefan23]

Stockton?

The guy that played his entire career with one of the 20 best players ever and only made 2 finals. No titles.....and was a much worse playoff performer than Dirk.

There is absolutely no argument for Stockton over Dirk. Not one.

Dirk beats him in every area other than longevity....and even then its getting close because Dirk already has 11 great years....

Dirk is great, but Stockton is very arguable the greatest PG of all time and put up the highest APG mark ever. Of the top 10 assist % seasons, I think he has what, 6 or 7 of them? Dirk is great, but what's he done that compares with that? As if Malone made Stockton. ;0

[indiefan23]

regardless of whether or not i agree with gino, can you not argue good vs bad? you match up stocktons failures vs dirks greatest moments, how about failures vs failures and successes vs successes? it would make it closer than youre tryin to make it

Yea, seriously, Stockton pushed the Bulls to 6 games twice in the finals. Dirk went out to the Warriors in the first round. The truth lies in the middle.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Stockton?
Thomas?

LOL....sorry. You lose all cred there.

Barkley?
Erving?
Garnett?

Definitely debatable at this point.

5 players in NBA history have led teams to 50 plus wins ten or more seasons in a row and won a title, mvp, and finals mvp.

Russell
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Dirk


...........

Dirk's championship probably puts him over for me, but you know Charles was a total beast. Excellent scoring volume on RED HOT efficiency and ridiculous on the boards. Only thing that kept him from Larry O was the 41-PPG-ON-51%-IN-THE-FINALS freight train that was '93 MJ.

[Go Getter]

Stockton was better than Dirk.

John played both sides of the floor and was a tough competitor (on defense as well as offense)...at 6 feet he went to the rim stronger than Dirk :oldlol:

I'm not going to bash or point out my opinion on the subject much because Dirk fans/Mavs fans deserve their time in the sun.

But I agree with the OP...the Dirk overrating is at an all-time high.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk is great, but Stockton is very arguable the greatest PG of all time and put up the highest APG mark ever. Of the top 10 assist % seasons, I think he has what, 6 or 7 of them? Dirk is great, but what's he done that compares with that? As if Malone made Stockton. ;0

You should change your article and replace Dirk with Stockton.

This is just laughable.

Now stockton didn't win because he didn't have enough help? Holy shit. I've officially heard it all.

[DMAVS41]

Stockton was better than Dirk.

John played both sides of the floor and was a tough competitor (on defense as well as offense)...at 6 feet he went to the rim stronger than Dirk :oldlol:

I'm not going to bash or point out my opinion on the subject much because Dirk fans/Mavs fans deserve their time in the sun.

But I agree with the OP...the Dirk overrating is at an all-time high.

Its not just Mavs fans. Pretty much every basketball historian that knows anything would rank Dirk in the top 20 now.

I've never seen stockton in the top 20 on any list before.

[Go Getter]

You should change your article and replace Dirk with Stockton.

This is just laughable.

Now stockton didn't win because he didn't have enough help? Holy shit. I've officially heard it all.


If Dirk's career lined up with MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, KAJ, Hakeem, etc he would most likely be ringless as well.
:confusedshrug:

[Go Getter]

Its not just Mavs fans. Pretty much every basketball historian that knows anything would rank Dirk in the top 20 now.

I've never seen stockton in the top 20 on any list before.

1. I disagree.
2. You haven't seen many lists then...isn't Stockton tops in steals and assists?

Dirk is a 47% career shooting PF who averages about 7-8 rebounds a game. Not taking away from his greatness but he is not the type of PF that every basketball historian fawns over, ESPECIALLY since he is not an adroit defender.

[DMAVS41]

Yea, seriously, Stockton pushed the Bulls to 6 games twice in the finals. Dirk went out to the Warriors in the first round. The truth lies in the middle.

And stockton somehow only made 2 finals playing with a top 20 player of all time for his entire career nearly.

Not titles. No MVP.

Dirk played pretty much his entire career not having a top 20 player in the league on his team. Stockton had a top 5 player in the league pretty much every year that happened to be one of the best players ever.

[DMAVS41]

1. I disagree.
2. You haven't seen many lists then...isn't Stockton tops in steals and assists?

Dirk is a 47% career shooting PF who averages about 7-8 rebounds a game. Not taking away from his greatness but he is not the type of PF that every basketball historian fawns over, ESPECIALLY since he is not an adroit defender.

Why would you post regular season stats?

Dirk's regular season success is as elite as it gets. Do you really want to talk about regular season?

Why not post Dirk's 26/10/3 career playoff averages. LOL...Dirk is one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history.

Stockton could never lead a team to a title as the lone star...hell, he couldn't even win anything with an all time great at his side.

:wtf:

[DMAVS41]

If Dirk's career lined up with MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, KAJ, Hakeem, etc he would most likely be ringless as well.
:confusedshrug:

Not if he played with one of them.

Dirk just beat Lebron and Wade on the same freaking team. And went through Kobe as well.

LOL......

[DMAVS41]

Are there any objective measures that favor stockton?

Regular success? Dirk
Playoff success? Dirk
Regular season numbers? Dirk
Playoff numbers? Dirk

Advanced stats? Dirk

All the BS honors and accolades? Dirk


What objective measures favor Stockton?

[Bring-Your-Js]

DMAVS, why don't you think Dirk has a real shot at getting his 2nd MVP next season? It would do wonders.

[DMAVS41]

1. I disagree.
2. You haven't seen many lists then...isn't Stockton tops in steals and assists?

Dirk is a 47% career shooting PF who averages about 7-8 rebounds a game. Not taking away from his greatness but he is not the type of PF that every basketball historian fawns over, ESPECIALLY since he is not an adroit defender.

Find me a list with stockton in the top 20 all time.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS, why don't you think Dirk has a real shot at getting his 2nd MVP next season? It would do wonders.

Because he is going to only play around 32 or so minutes a game and I think Durant and Howard will be almost impossible to beat.

Looking back, Dirk probably should have won it this year. Forget what happened in the playoffs, 57 wins with 23/7/3 on 52/39/89 efficiency while losing your 2nd best player and not having an elite 2nd star. Team went 2-7 without him....and another couple losses because he came back early because the team was spiraling downwards.

The Mavs would have likely won 62 or more games.

[Go Getter]

Why would you post regular season stats?

Dirk's regular season success is as elite as it gets. Do you really want to talk about regular season?

Why not post Dirk's 26/10/3 career playoff averages. LOL...Dirk is one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history.

Stockton could never lead a team to a title as the lone star...hell, he couldn't even win anything with an all time great at his side.

:wtf:


Jason Terry hit more threes and made more clutch plays than Dirk with a better defender on him....don't act like Dirk did it by himself.

Stockton lost twice to Michael Jeffrey Jordan and the Bulls.

If you think the Mavs would have beaten the Bulls you are flipping crazy.

Having 10 rebounds a game does not make you one of the best playoff rebounders in history--please. Dirk is not one of the greatest playoff rebounders by any means.

And 47% SHOOTING and 7 rebounds a game at 7 feet tall is not elite no matter how you spin it man.

[DMAVS41]

Jason Terry hit more threes and made more clutch plays than Dirk with a better defender on him....don't act like Dirk did it by himself.

Stockton lost twice to Michael Jeffrey Jordan and the Bulls.

If you think the Mavs would have beaten the Bulls you are flipping crazy.

Having 10 rebounds a game does not make you one of the best playoff rebounders in history--please. Dirk is not one of the greatest playoff rebounders by any means.

And 47% SHOOTING and 7 rebounds a game at 7 feet tall is not elite no matter how you spin it man.

What?

Dirk just beat Kobe, Lebron, and Wade.....with a much worse 2nd option than Stockton ever had.

Did I say the Mavs would have beat the Bulls? No, but if you gave Dirk a player equal to prime Karl Malone....they'd have a good chance.

And again, Stockton only made 2 finals. Whats the excuse all those other years? He only faced Jordan twice. That excuse doesn't fly.

Somehow Dirk, playing in the era of Kobe/Shaq and Duncan, managed to make 2 finals with less help....and won a title.

LOL

Again.

What objective measures favor Stockton?
Where is this list with Stockton in the top 20?

[Go Getter]

Are there any objective measures that favor stockton?

Regular success? Dirk
Playoff success? Dirk
Regular season numbers? Dirk
Playoff numbers? Dirk

Advanced stats? Dirk

All the BS honors and accolades? Dirk


What objective measures favor Stockton?

-.515% shooting as a guard (for his career)
-NBA all-time leader in assists and steals.
-solid contributor on offense AND defense
-5 of the top 6 best assist seasons ever
-missed only 22 games in his career
-one of the smartest ball players ever
-flopped without looking like a yssup:D (j/k)

[Bring-Your-Js]

Because he is going to only play around 32 or so minutes a game and I think Durant and Howard will be almost impossible to beat.

Looking back, Dirk probably should have won it this year. Forget what happened in the playoffs, 57 wins with 23/7/3 on 52/39/89efficiency while losing your 2nd best player and not having an elite 2nd star. Team went 2-7 without him....and another couple losses because he came back early because the team was spiraling downwards.

The Mavs would have likely won 62 or more games.

:bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

http://nbalegacy.blogspot.com/2011/06/nba-legacy-all-time-25-june-2011.html


From Simmons on Dirk:

Dirk Nowitzki: He's already propelled himself into the top 20 and a permanent "Barkley, Malone or Nowitzki?" discussion; he's erased any lingering scars from the 2006 Finals and 2007 Playoffs; and he's clinched "one of the best clutch scorers of his generation" status. But if he wins the title with a bunch of role players? That nudges him up a level; now we'd have to discuss him with Julius Erving, Bob Pettit, John Havlicek, and maybe even Tim Duncan as one of the Greatest Forwards Ever Not Named Larry Bird. However it plays out, he's already the biggest winner from this series. You can't say enough about Dirk Nowitzki.

[Go Getter]

What?

Dirk just beat Kobe, Lebron, and Wade.....with a much worse 2nd option than Stockton ever had.

Did I say the Mavs would have beat the Bulls? No, but if you gave Dirk a player equal to prime Karl Malone....they'd have a good chance.

And again, Stockton only made 2 finals. Whats the excuse all those other years? He only faced Jordan twice. That excuse doesn't fly.

Somehow Dirk, playing in the era of Kobe/Shaq and Duncan, managed to make 2 finals with less help....and won a title.

LOL

Again.

What objective measures favor Stockton?
Where is this list with Stockton in the top 20?


They defeated a washed up Lakers team and a Heat team that is more dysfunctional than a reality TV family.

Do you understand how much better Stockton's league was?

Do you realize that if Dirk had to endure real playoff fouls and a league that allowed a little physical play that his game would suffer immensely as a finesse player?

[R.I.P.]

Having 10 rebounds a game does not make you one of the best playoff rebounders in history--please. Dirk is not one of the greatest playoff rebounders by any means.

No only makes you 29th all-time and puts you into some shitty company.

21. Hakeem Olajuwon 11.18 --> not elite rebounder.
23. Kevin Garnett 11.14 --> not elite rebounder.
26. Karl Malone 10.68 --> not elite rebounder.
27. David Robinson 10.58 --> not elite rebounder.
28. Kareem Abdul Jabbar 10.48 --> not elite rebounder.
29. Dirk Nowitzki 10.40 --> please
30. Patrick Ewing 10.30 --> not elite rebounder.
39. Dennis Rodman 9.92 --> shite a scrub.

:rolleyes:

[Go Getter]

Wtf is up with all the people saying Dirk doesn't have a legit 2nd option when Terry was KILLING Lebron James? When Chandler was gobbling up rebounds? When Marion was guarding the most difficult PFs for Dirk?

Dude had a lot of help.

[DMAVS41]

-.515% shooting as a guard (for his career)
-NBA all-time leader in assists and steals.
-solid contributor on offense AND defense
-5 of the top 6 best assist seasons ever
-missed only 22 games in his career
-one of the smartest ball players ever
-flopped without looking like a yssup:D (j/k)

I'd hope he would shoot a high percentage only scoring 13 ppg in the playoffs.

What is more impressive in your opinion?

Dirk scoring 26 a game on 58.4% TS or.....
Stockton scoring 13 a game on 57% TS

Those are the playoff numbers by the way....you know....what really matter

Dirk is also an extremely healthy player. He's never played less than 73 games in a single season. Dirk has played in 96% of his games.

Dirk is also one of the smartest players ever.


LOL...etc....etc....

And again.....you are getting into subjective areas. What objective measures favor Stockton? LOL

[DMAVS41]

Wtf is up with all the people saying Dirk doesn't have a legit 2nd option when Terry was KILLING Lebron James? When Chandler was gobbling up rebounds? When Marion was guarding the most difficult PFs for Dirk?

Dude had a lot of help.

Not compared to most title teams.

Chandler averaged 8 points and 9 boards. Good, but nothing great.

Terry averaged 17 points. Good, but nothing all time great.

Dirk got help for sure, but he didn't have the kind of help it normally takes to win titles.

And when you factor in the teams and players he beat, its wildly impressive.

[Go Getter]

No only makes you 29th all-time and puts you into some shitty company.

21. Hakeem Olajuwon 11.18 --> not elite rebounder.
23. Kevin Garnett 11.14 --> not elite rebounder.
26. Karl Malone 10.68 --> not elite rebounder.
27. David Robinson 10.58 --> not elite rebounder.
28. Kareem Abdul Jabbar 10.48 --> not elite rebounder.
29. Dirk Nowitzki 10.40 --> please
30. Patrick Ewing 10.30 --> not elite rebounder.
39. Dennis Rodman 9.92 --> shite a scrub.

:rolleyes:


It's not only about stats you genius you, it's about the nuances of the game.

If you actually think Dirk was a better rebounder than Dennis rodman because he averages a couple more in the playoffs then you my friend, are retarded.

[DMAVS41]

No only makes you 29th all-time and puts you into some shitty company.

21. Hakeem Olajuwon 11.18 --> not elite rebounder.
23. Kevin Garnett 11.14 --> not elite rebounder.
26. Karl Malone 10.68 --> not elite rebounder.
27. David Robinson 10.58 --> not elite rebounder.
28. Kareem Abdul Jabbar 10.48 --> not elite rebounder.
29. Dirk Nowitzki 10.40 --> please
30. Patrick Ewing 10.30 --> not elite rebounder.
39. Dennis Rodman 9.92 --> shite a scrub.

:rolleyes:

Yep. Educate these fools please.

[DMAVS41]

It's not only about stats you genius you, it's about the nuances of the game.

If you actually think Dirk was a better rebounder than Dennis rodman because he averages a couple more in the playoffs then you my friend, are retarded.

So now Dirk's rebounds don't count as much as others?

Dirk actually has been an all time great defensive rebounder. Where Dirk is not great is offensive rebounding.

Nuances? LOL....sounds more like:

"oh shit, i'm talking out of my ass and getting owned and i better make something up about nuances or intangibles to save face"

Again, try to stay in the objective arena. I don't know why you think we should value your opinion more than any other.

[Go Getter]

Not compared to most title teams.

Chandler averaged 8 points and 9 boards. Good, but nothing great.

Terry averaged 17 points. Good, but nothing all time great.

Dirk got help for sure, but he didn't have the kind of help it normally takes to win titles.

And when you factor in the teams and players he beat, its wildly impressive.


Who had a second option that was an all-time great scorer?

Tim Duncan?
KG?
Chauncey Billups?

In recent history the 2nd option argument is really weak.

The Pistons, Celtics, and Spurs won with a balanced attack.

So did Dirk. The Jet had more threes than Dirk and played against a tougher matchup so idk why you're talking like he was shit. He put work in on LBJ and carried the team at times.

He might not have the 2nd option resume but he PLAYED LIKE IT. And that's pretty clear.

[Go Getter]

So now Dirk's rebounds don't count as much as others?

Dirk actually has been an all time great defensive rebounder. Where Dirk is not great is offensive rebounding.

Nuances? LOL....sounds more like:

"oh shit, i'm talking out of my ass and getting owned and i better make something up about nuances or intangibles to save face"

Again, try to stay in the objective arena. I don't know why you think we should value your opinion more than any other.



If you solely look at stats you'd think that Dirk was a better rebounder than worm (looking at that list). Is that the case?

No one asked you to consider my opion at all much less more than anyone else's. YOU chose to address me my friend.

Try to see past your man love for Dirk and comprehend what I say.

[R.I.P.]

It's not only about stats you genius you, it's about the nuances of the game.

Right. Let me guess what the nuances are. Dirk

[DMAVS41]

Who had a second option that was an all-time great scorer?

Tim Duncan?
KG?
Chauncey Billups?

In recent history the 2nd option argument is really weak.

The Pistons, Celtics, and Spurs won with a balanced attack.

So did Dirk. The Jet had more threes than Dirk and played against a tougher matchup so idk why you're talking like he was shit. He put work in on LBJ and carried the team at times.

He might not have the 2nd option resume but he PLAYED LIKE IT. And that's pretty clear.


Actually not really. Paul Pierce is simply a much better player than Terry.

Its not just about ppg man. Terry is a very poor defender and rebounder.

You really would take Terry over Manu?....or Parker?

Billups wasn't a superstar. Totally different team dynamic.

Go back over NBA history since 1975 and tell me which superstars won titles with worse 2nd options. You'll come up with Hakeem in 94, Duncan in 03, and Barry in 75. Doubt you come up with any other year for a player.

[DMAVS41]

I'm saying what I said.

If you solely look at stats you'd think that Dirk was a better rebounder than worm. Is that the case?

Actually this is false.

Rodman:

orb% 15
drb% 26.2
trb% 20.5

Dirk:

orb% 4
drb% 24.8
trb% 14.4

Those are the playoff numbers for their careers.

Do you think the stats show dirk to be superior still? Of course not. Rodman was a much better rebounder...just like the numbers show.

[Go Getter]

Dirk actually has been an all time great defensive rebounder.


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Playoff history:

Dirk is 11th all time in defensive rebounds
Dirk is 13th all time in defensive rebound percentage


Do you enjoy getting roasted like this? Please tell me how that is not all time great.....

top 13 in total and percentage in NBA playoff history. Think about that.....

:no:

[Go Getter]

Actually not really. Paul Pierce is simply a much better player than Terry.

Its not just about ppg man. Terry is a very poor defender and rebounder.

You really would take Terry over Manu?....or Parker?

Billups wasn't a superstar. Totally different team dynamic.

Go back over NBA history since 1975 and tell me which superstars won titles with worse 2nd options. You'll come up with Hakeem in 94, Duncan in 03, and Barry in 75. Doubt you come up with any other year for a player.


It's not about 2nd, 3rd, and 4th options you wonderful human being you it's about the team dynamic.

Terry hit more threes than anyone in the NBA during the post season. In the close out game he outscored Dirk. Matter of fact, how many times did Jordan get outscored by Pippen and Kukoc in the playoffs? or even in the regular season? A lot of times this year Marion and Terry pulled more than their weight on O while letting Dirk relax a bit more.

[Go Getter]

Playoff history:

Dirk is 11th all time in defensive rebounds
Dirk is 13th all time in defensive rebound percentage


Do you enjoy getting roasted like this? Please tell me how that is not all time great.....

top 13 in total and percentage in NBA playoff history. Think about that.....

:no:


I'm not a stat geek. I saw D Wade snatching rebounds right out of his hands.

I would take many many more than 15 PF's over Dirk in the rebounding category. Some of which are much worse than Dirk so they do not get to play as much as he does (which allows him to rack up more) but that's not his fault (Dirk's) it is what it is.

[Go Getter]

Actually not really. Paul Pierce is simply a much better player than Terry.

Its not just about ppg man. Terry is a very poor defender and rebounder.

You really would take Terry over Manu?....or Parker?

Billups wasn't a superstar. Totally different team dynamic.

Go back over NBA history since 1975 and tell me which superstars won titles with worse 2nd options. You'll come up with Hakeem in 94, Duncan in 03, and Barry in 75. Doubt you come up with any other year for a player.


Paul was the first option on O...I really don't think Ray and KG at this point are better offensive players than Terry....or better yet, I don't think they could do much better than he did with LBJ guarding them.

[DMAVS41]

It's not about 2nd, 3rd, and 4th options you wonderful human being you it's about the team dynamic.

Terry hit more threes than anyone in the NBA during the post season. In the close out game he outscored Dirk. Matter of fact, how many times did Jordan get outscored by Pippen and Kukoc in the playoffs? or even in the regular season? A lot of times this year Marion and Terry pulled more than their weight on O while letting Dirk relax a bit more.

Are we comparing Dirk to Jordan now?

Good shift of the focus.

So lets get this straight. You want to penalize Dirk for playing with Terry because he made some big shots, scores 17 a game, doesn't defend, and doesn't rebound.

Yet you say Stockton didn't have enough help?

What?

He played with Karl ****ing Malone.

Just for fun...lets look at their playoff careers:

Malone - 25 points 11 boards 3 assists on 53% TS

Terry - 17 points 3 boards 4 assists on 56% TS

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Karl Malone is a top 20 player of all time. Has Terry ever been in the top 20 in the league??????

[DMAVS41]

I'm not a stat geek. I saw D Wade snatching rebounds right out of his hands.

I would take many many more than 15 PF's over Dirk in the rebounding category. Some of which are much worse than Dirk so they do not get to play as much as he does (which allows him to rack up more) but that's not his fault (Dirk's) it is what it is.

So now rebounding stats don't matter. The fact that Dirk has been a beast on the defensive glass means nothing to you because Wade (one of the most athletic players of all time) got some rebounds over a 33 year old past prime Dirk.

Got it.

Could you be more biased?

[Go Getter]

I'd hope he would shoot a high percentage only scoring 13 ppg in the playoffs.

What is more impressive in your opinion?

Dirk scoring 26 a game on 58.4% TS or.....
Stockton scoring 13 a game on 57% TS

Those are the playoff numbers by the way....you know....what really matter

Dirk is also an extremely healthy player. He's never played less than 73 games in a single season. Dirk has played in 96% of his games.

Dirk is also one of the smartest players ever.


LOL...etc....etc....

And again.....you are getting into subjective areas. What objective measures favor Stockton? LOL


You keep on ignoring the facts.

-.515% shooting for his career (Dirk is at 47%)
-All time STEALS LEADER! (Impact on defense)
-All time assists leader (nuff said)
-Tough as nails (Dirk's toughness is in question, although he is a finesse player so he doesn't need to bang)

Are you reading this? Can you please acknowledge these clear and applicable stats please?

[Go Getter]

Are we comparing Dirk to Jordan now?

Good shift of the focus.

So lets get this straight. You want to penalize Dirk for playing with Terry because he made some big shots, scores 17 a game, doesn't defend, and doesn't rebound.

Yet you say Stockton didn't have enough help?

What?

He played with Karl ****ing Malone.

Just for fun...lets look at their playoff careers:

Malone - 25 points 11 boards 3 assists on 53% TS

Terry - 17 points 3 boards 4 assists on 56% TS

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Karl Malone is a top 20 player of all time. Has Terry ever been in the top 20 in the league??????
Stockton was the second option on offense you moron.

And I wasn't comparing Dirk to Jordan I was comparing his help. Pip was NOT a scorer and Jordan's best second option on offense EVER was Toni Kukoc.

[Go Getter]

So now rebounding stats don't matter. The fact that Dirk has been a beast on the defensive glass means nothing to you because Wade (one of the most athletic players of all time) got some rebounds over a 33 year old past prime Dirk.

Got it.

Could you be more biased?


No one is biased. I'm stating my opinion just like you.

The stats say that Dirk has a better rebounding average than dennis Rodman when we all know Rodman was a better rebounder. You want to overlook that and misquote me to make it seem like I say rebounding stats don't matter.

I'm done. no use debating a stan.

[DMAVS41]

You keep on ignoring the facts.

-.515% shooting for his career (Dirk is at 47%)
-All time STEALS LEADER! (Impact on defense)
-All time assists leader (nuff said)
-Tough as nails (Dirk's toughness is in question, although he is a finesse player so he doesn't need to bang)

Are you reading this? Can you please acknowledge these clear and applicable stats please?

I will go one by one.

1. Efficiency...you must consider volume....so lets look at their playoff efficiency on volume:

Dirk - 26 points on 46/38/89 with a TS% of 58.4

Stock - 13 points on 47/33/81 with a TS% 56.8

Those numbers easily favor Dirk. Its not even close.


2. Defense. Stockton was a better defender. No doubt. No argument here. But does it impact the game considerably as a pg?

Lets look at some of the numbers:

Defensive Win shares:

Dirk - 5.0 in 124 playoff games
Stock - 7.1 in 182 playoff games

Defensive rating:

Dirk - 107
Stock - 107

Like I said, Stockton was the better defender....but the impact of that better defense is hard to quantify.


3. Assists. For sure. Stockton was better. Not sure what point you are trying to make with this. Thats like me pointing out that Dirk was a better scorer. Its obvious.


4. Toughness. Both players are about as tough as they come. Both players rarely missed games and played through many injuries. Dirk's toughness should never be questioned.


Anything else?

And I still fail to see how that would possibly make Stockton better.

Now that I answered you questions...answer mine.

1. Which player has had more playoff success?
2. Which player has had more regular season success?
3. Which player has better honors/accolades?
4. Which player has better career numbers?
5. Which player do all the advanced stats favor?

[DMAVS41]

No one is biased. I'm stating my opinion just like you.

The stats say that Dirk has a better rebounding average than dennis Rodman when we all know Rodman was a better rebounder. You want to overlook that and misquote me to make it seem like I say rebounding stats don't matter.

I'm done. no use debating a stan.

You aren't debating.

You are just tossing out your opinion with no evidence to back anything up.

I hope you realize that the burden of proof is on you in this debate. Dirk is considered a better player than Stockton by most people that know the game.

I'd create a thread asking the forum, but it was just be embarrassing for Stockton.

So basically your argument is that we should discount all the objective measures and have a purely subjective debate.

But when we do that, wouldn't the end results have to favor Stockton for him to be a better player on some level?

I mean, why has Dirk been able to accomplish more in his career playing as the sole superstar of his franchise while Stockton was not the sole superstar. And even more to that, Stockton played his career with a player that was better than him....and happened to be one of the 20 best players of all time.

I can't even imagine what Dirk's career would look like if he played his entire career with a top 40 player of all time....let alone a top 20 player.


So I'll ask you this. If you had to pick between Stockton and Dirk to start a franchise. Who do you pick? You have no other players yet. Its just you are starting a franchise and you get to pick one of them. Please answer.

[DMAVS41]

Stockton was the second option on offense you moron.

And I wasn't comparing Dirk to Jordan I was comparing his help. Pip was NOT a scorer and Jordan's best second option on offense EVER was Toni Kukoc.

Pippen was so much better than Terry its a joke.

Pippen scored more points and averaged more assists.

Not to mention of course Pippen being probably 10 times the defensive player and just an overall far greater player and more versatile player.

Do you know how absurd you sound trying to compare Jason Terry to Scottie freaking Pippen.


And no, Kukoc was not Jordan's best offensive option. Pippen scored 22 points on 50% shooting and averaged 6 assists in 91.

Lets compare that to Kukoc's best year with the Bulls:

13 points on 49% shooting and averaged 3 assists.



Are those just stats as well? You really think Kuckoc was a better offensive player than Pippen? Wow.

[Go Getter]

You aren't debating.

You are just tossing out your opinion with no evidence to back anything up.

I hope you realize that the burden of proof is on you in this debate. Dirk is considered a better player than Stockton by most people that know the game.

I'd create a thread asking the forum, but it was just be embarrassing for Stockton.

So basically your argument is that we should discount all the objective measures and have a purely subjective debate.

But when we do that, wouldn't the end results have to favor Stockton for him to be a better player on some level?

I mean, why has Dirk been able to accomplish more in his career playing as the sole superstar of his franchise while Stockton was not the sole superstar. And even more to that, Stockton played his career with a player that was better than him....and happened to be one of the 20 best players of all time.

I can't even imagine what Dirk's career would look like if he played his entire career with a top 40 player of all time....let alone a top 20 player.


So I'll ask you this. If you had to pick between Stockton and Dirk to start a franchise. Who do you pick? You have no other players yet. Its just you are starting a franchise and you get to pick one of them. Please answer.

1. Why is the burden of proof on me? No one is getting paid for this man.:roll:

I did back up my claim.
-All time leader in assists and steals
-2-way player
-.515 shooting percentage

2. Stockton was a PG, and not the number one option of his team. If Karl would have held onto the ball or Bryon would have stuck some d maybe it would have came out differently. As you can tell by these finals 2 PLAYERS DO NOT MAKE A TEAM! Dirk played with a much better team with better coaching than the Heat.

3. John played in a tougher league hands down.

4. I would probably pick John to be honest. John played better defense, was a smarter player, and was tough as nails. I could build around John easier than I could build around Dirk.

[Go Getter]

[/B]

Pippen was so much better than Terry its a joke.

Pippen scored more points and averaged more assists.

Not to mention of course Pippen being probably 10 times the defensive player and just an overall far greater player and more versatile player.

Do you know how absurd you sound trying to compare Jason Terry to Scottie freaking Pippen.


We are talking about second options as it pertains to scoring. Pip was the first option on defense...the stopper....but watching Bulls games as much as I have I can tell you that Pip's scoring left much to be desired.

So MJ's second and third players might have been better than Dirk's but go down that roster and compare the teams!

Dennis Hopson?
Jed Buschler (I loved him btw, n/h)?
Bill Wennington?
Randy Brown?
Stacey King?
Caffey?
Bison Dele?

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

1. Why is the burden of proof on me? No one is getting paid for this man.:roll:

I did back up my claim.
-All time leader in assists and steals
-2-way player
-.515 shooting percentage

2. Stockton was a PG, and not the number one option of his team. If Karl would have held onto the ball or Bryon would have stuck some d maybe it would have came out differently. As you can tell by these finals 2 PLAYERS DO NOT MAKE A TEAM! Dirk played with a much better team with better coaching than the Heat.

3. John played in a tougher league hands down.

4. I would probably pick John to be honest. John played better defense, was a smarter player, and was tough as nails. I could build around John easier than I could build around Dirk.

How? Stock couldn't even win with Karl Malone. You think you can build around him better than that?

Holy shit dude. Do you know how absurd that is?

Dirk just won a title with a bunch of role players. Dirk just won 50 or more 11 straight times.

Stock couldn't match that with prime ****ing Karl Malone.

Wow.

And I'll keep asking. Where are these lists with Stockton in the top 20?

And stop listing his fg% for the regular season. Nobody cares about the regular season stats. They are meaningless. Notice how Stockton shoots 47% when the games actually matter....and on pathetic volume at that.

Dudes comparing 26 a game on 58% TS to 13 a game on 57% TS

LOL

[DMAVS41]

We are talking about second options as it pertains to scoring. Pip was the first option on defense...the stopper....but watching Bulls games as much as I have I can tell you that Pip's scoring left much to be desired.

So MJ's second and third players might have been better than Dirk's but go down that roster and compare the teams!

Dennis Hopson?
Jed Buschler (I loved him btw, n/h)?
Bill Wennington?
Randy Brown?
Stacey King?
Caffey?
Bison Dele?

:facepalm


The NBA has always been a star driven league. Its why the 2nd option is so key.

Again, name me the teams since 1975 that have won title with a worse 2nd option than Terry around a superstar player.

I'm waiting...............

If its so easy, why does it almost never happen?

[Go Getter]

I will go one by one.

1. Efficiency...you must consider volume....so lets look at their playoff efficiency on volume:

Dirk - 26 points on 46/38/89 with a TS% of 58.4

Stock - 13 points on 47/33/81 with a TS% 56.8

Those numbers easily favor Dirk. Its not even close.


2. Defense. Stockton was a better defender. No doubt. No argument here. But does it impact the game considerably as a pg?

Lets look at some of the numbers:

Defensive Win shares:

Dirk - 5.0 in 124 playoff games
Stock - 7.1 in 182 playoff games

Defensive rating:

Dirk - 107
Stock - 107

Like I said, Stockton was the better defender....but the impact of that better defense is hard to quantify.


3. Assists. For sure. Stockton was better. Not sure what point you are trying to make with this. Thats like me pointing out that Dirk was a better scorer. Its obvious.


4. Toughness. Both players are about as tough as they come. Both players rarely missed games and played through many injuries. Dirk's toughness should never be questioned.


Anything else?

And I still fail to see how that would possibly make Stockton better.

Now that I answered you questions...answer mine.

1. Which player has had more playoff success?
2. Which player has had more regular season success?
3. Which player has better honors/accolades?
4. Which player has better career numbers?
5. Which player do all the advanced stats favor?


1. I don't use advanced stats. Take Dirk's FG% and compare it to John's...then take the FT% and compare, then 3pFG%.....thank you.

2. Defensive win shares? :facepalm

4. Dirk is NOT as tough as Stockton, I watched the games and John had way more fire in his belly. Not really a debate for those of us not wanting to have Dirk's kids.

5. I'm not going to answer your questions because it doesn't matter what I say to you about Dirk really.

I'll leave with my main points.

-DIRK IS NOT AN ALL TIME GREAT REBOUNDER

-IT IS NOT FOOLISH TO THINK THAT JOHN STOCKTON COULD BE RANKED HIGHER THAN DIRK ALL TIME.


That is all.

[Go Getter]

The NBA has always been a star driven league. Its why the 2nd option is so key.

Again, name me the teams since 1975 that have won title with a worse 2nd option than Terry around a superstar player.

I'm waiting...............

If its so easy, why does it almost never happen?


:facepalm

It's not about their rank all time, it's about how they play when the lights come on and Terry and the Mavs supporting cast played above their heads.

So stop trying to compare Terry to others all time and compare what he did. If the NBA is such a star driven league then why do teams like the Pistons, Spurs, and Celtics win with team work and not heavily leaning on (one) star(s)?

[DMAVS41]

1. I don't use advanced stats. Take Dirk's FG% and compare it to John's...then take the FT% and compare, then 3pFG%.....thank you.

2. Defensive win shares? :facepalm

4. Dirk is NOT as tough as Stockton, I watched the games and John had way more fire in his belly. Not really a debate for those of us not wanting to have Dirk's kids.

5. I'm not going to answered your question because it doesn't matter.

I'll leave with my main points.

-DIRK IS NOT AN ALL TIME GREAT REBOUNDER

-IT IS NOT FOOLISH TO THINK THAT JOHN STOCKTON COULD BE RANKED HIGHER THAN DIRK ALL TIME.


That is all.


I never said Dirk was an all time great rebounder. I said he was an all time great defensive rebounder in the playoffs. Which he is. Its a fact. Dirk is one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history.


It absolutely is foolish. Dirk has him beat in every area. Better career numbers in the playoffs and regular season and has had more success....playing with less help.

What more is there?

Again, find me one somewhat recent list with Stockton in the top 20.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

It's not about teir rank all time, it's about how they play when the lights come on and Terry and the Mavs supporting cast played above their heads.

So stop trying to compare Terry to others all time and compare what he did.If the NBA is such a star driven league then why do teams like the Pistons, Spurs, and Celtics win with team work and not heavily leaning on (one) star(s)?

The Pistons didn't have a superstar. They had a totally different team dynamic.

The Celtics? When? 08? They had two top 15 players in KG and Pierce.

The Spurs? When? Only in 03 did Duncan win without a great 2nd guy actually.

He had Robinson in 99 giving him 16/10/3 and great defense.
He had Manu in 05 giving him 21/6/4 and very good defense.
He had Parker in 07 giving him 21/6/3....and Manu giving him better numbers than Terry put up this year.

I am comparing what Terry did this year to those other teams. Its not even close.

Could you get more owned? Wake up dude. Come back to reality please.

[Go Getter]

[/B]

I never said Dirk was an all time great rebounder. I said he was an all time great defensive rebounder in the playoffs. Which he is. Its a fact. Dirk is one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history.


It absolutely is foolish. Dirk has him beat in every area. Better career numbers in the playoffs and regular season and has had more success....playing with less help.

What more is there?

Again, find me one somewhat recent list with Stockton in the top 20.


With less help how?

Just because he has Karl Malone on his team it doesn't mean the other parts of the roster = the Mavs.

You are talking crazy now.

And go back and read....you did not call Dirk one of the best DEFENSIVE rebounders you simply said one of the best....and he isn't by any stretch of the imagination.

[Go Getter]

The Pistons didn't have a superstar. They had a totally different team dynamic.

The Celtics? When? 08? They had two top 15 players in KG and Pierce.

The Spurs? When? Only in 03 did Duncan win without a great 2nd guy actually.

He had Robinson in 99 giving him 16/10/3 and great defense.
He had Manu in 05 giving him 21/6/4 and very good defense.
He had Parker in 07 giving him 21/6/3....and Manu giving him better numbers than Terry put up this year.

I am comparing what Terry did this year to those other teams. Its not even close.

Could you get more owned? Wake up dude. Come back to reality please.

It is close. It only seems distant because you only look at stats and not actual games.

*Terry's 17 is really really far from the 21 that Tim's help gave him anyways:rolleyes:

1. You said find a team that had a worse second option and I did. The Pistons played team ball just like the Mav's did therefore you don't need a clear concise #1, #2, #3 guy.

-Dirk had Stevenson and Marion and Chandler giving him defense.
-Dirk had Chandler banging the glass
-Dirk had Terry hitting timely shots and taking LBJ and pulling up in his face like it was nothing
-Dirk had Kidd leading the team and making sure ppl were where they were supposed to be.
-Dirk had Barrea pushing the point and setting tempo

But let you tell it he had less help than anyone ever in sports history.

Point proven....and you were the one who typed it (in my support).....not all teams need a #2 guy, many teams are balanced just like the Mavs.

[DMAVS41]

With less help how?

Just because he has Karl Malone on his team it doesn't mean the other parts of the roster = the Mavs.

You are talking crazy now.

And go back and read....you did not call Dirk one of the best DEFENSIVE rebounders you simply said one of the best....and he isn't by any stretch of the imagination.


If I did it was simply a typo.....

But regardless, Dirk has been a very good rebounder in the playoffs when it matters. He's averaged over 10 a game for his career. Stop acting like he's some liability on the glass. He's not.

Stockton did play with more help. Its not just Malone. Look at his rosters.

Lets just look at 96 for example:

Malone - 27/10/4
Horny - 18/4/3
Russell - 10/4/1

And then a bunch of solid players like Carr, Spencer, Morris, Ostertag....etc.

Could you imagine Dirk being surrounded by two guys like that? Do you realize how good Malone and Hornacek actually were?

Horny was slightly better than Terry and Malone would have been 3 times as good as any other teammates Dirk had.

Its not even remotely close dude. Sorry.

[DMAVS41]

It is close. It only seems distant because you only look at stats and not actual games.

*Terry's 17 is really really far from the 21 that Tim's help gave him anyways:rolleyes:

1. You said find a team that had a worse second option and I did. The Pistons played team ball just like the Mav's did therefore you don't need a clear concise #1, #2, #3 guy.

-Dirk had Stevenson and Marion and Chandler giving him defense.
-Dirk had Chandler banging the glass
-Dirk had Terry hitting timely shots and taking LBJ and pulling up in his face like it was nothing
-Dirk had Kidd leading the team and making sure ppl were where they were supposed to be.
-Dirk had Barrea pushing the point and setting tempo

But let you tell it he had less help than anyone ever in sports history.

Point proven....and you were the one who typed it (in my support).....not all teams need a #2 guy, many teams are balanced just like the Mavs.

What?

There were worse 2nd options. I listed them for you with Hakeem, Barry, and Duncan.

I never disputed that. The pistons were not built around 1 player. Its a totally different dynamic.

And even if you want to say its the same and Billups was the best player.

Hamilton put up 22/5/4 in the playoffs that year. Easily better than Terry.

Owned.

[Go Getter]

[/B]

If I did it was simply a typo.....

But regardless, Dirk has been a very good rebounder in the playoffs when it matters. He's averaged over 10 a game for his career. Stop acting like he's some liability on the glass. He's not.

Stockton did play with more help. Its not just Malone. Look at his rosters.

Lets just look at 96 for example:

Malone - 27/10/4
Horny - 18/4/3
Russell - 10/4/1

And then a bunch of solid players like Carr, Spencer, Morris, Ostertag....etc.

Could you imagine Dirk being surrounded by two guys like that? Do you realize how good Malone and Hornacek actually were?

Horny was slightly better than Terry and Malone would have been 3 times as good as any other teammates Dirk had.

Its not even remotely close dude. Sorry.


No one did act like he was useless on the boards. You backpedaled from your statement.

A team would never have that much invested in PFs. Idk how you could compare the two situations fairly. But when Dirk Did have an AS PG in Nash he didn't do spit either so what's your point? :lol

[DMAVS41]

No one did act like he was useless on the boards. You backpedaled from your statement.

A team would never have that much invested in PFs. Idk how you could compare the two situations fairly. But when Dirk Did have an AS PG in Nash he didn't do spit either so what's your point? :lol

What?

More education? Really?

Dirk had an AS Nash for two years.

In 2002 the Mavs lost to the Kings.....
In 2003 the Mavs made the WCF and Dirk got hurt in game 3.....
In 2004 the Mavs lost in the playoffs in large part because Nash was hurt and played horribly against the Kings

Thats it. Oh they also upset Stocton and Malone in the 01 playoffs...but neither of them were close to their tapping their potential in 01

LOL

[Blue&Orange]

It's not about their rank all time, it's about how they play when the lights come on
No they didn't, Barea and Terry played like crap for the first 3 games, rest of the games they played very well, but nothing above of what they already had
showned in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

No one did act like he was useless on the boards. You backpedaled from your statement.

A team would never have that much invested in PFs. Idk how you could compare the two situations fairly. But when Dirk Did have an AS PG in Nash he didn't do spit either so what's your point? :lol

No, you just misunderstood or failed to notice the DEFENSIVE word before rebounding.

Not backpedaling at all.

It doesn't matter about fit. Its about Stockton clearly playing with more help and doing nothing with it.

Why?

Because Dirk is a better ****ing basketball player than Stockton ever was...every objective measure backs this up.

Other than you idiotic standards and subjective measures claiming that Terry as as good as Scottie Pippen or who knows what other BS you are spewing.

You can yield sir. Its ok.

[Bigsmoke]

If Dirk's career lined up with MJ's, Magic's, Bird's, KAJ, Hakeem, etc he would most likely be ringless as well.
:confusedshrug:

Dirk overcame 3 teams with multiple superstars.

the defending champs with Kobe and Gasol, the Thunder with the scoring champ and westbrook, and then they faced the team with the best and second best players in the NBA with and All Star PF.

still pretty impressive. :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

No they didn't, Barea and Terry played like crap for the first 3 games, rest of the games they played very well, but nothing above of what they already had
showned in the playoffs.

And lets get this clear:

Hornacek - 18/4/3 on 50% fg 59% 3 89% ft

Terry - 18/2/3 on 48% fg 44% 3 84% ft


The difference? Terry was Dirk's 2nd option. Horny was Stockton's 3rd option. And Dirk won the title....Stockton didn't even make the Finals that year.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Go Getter]

What?

There were worse 2nd options. I listed them for you with Hakeem, Barry, and Duncan.

I never disputed that. The pistons were not built around 1 player. Its a totally different dynamic.

And even if you want to say its the same and Billups was the best player.

Hamilton put up 22/5/4 in the playoffs that year. Easily better than Terry.

Owned.


Actually Hamilton was their #1 option on O and their best scorer.

there was no real #1 guy but if there was he was it.

[DMAVS41]

Actually Hamilton was their #1 option on O and their best scorer.

there was no real #1 guy but if there was he was it.

That was my point.

Its not a fair comparison. Or do you think we should compare Hamilton to Dirk?

It was a totally different team dynamic without a clear cut best player or superstar. Therefore it does not belong in the discussion.

Jesus man, I just showed you that Stockton's 3rd option in 96 was easily better than Dirk's 2nd option this year.

What more do you want? Stockton played with more help. Its obvious.

[Go Getter]

Dirk overcame 3 teams with multiple superstars.

the defending champs with Kobe and Gasol, the Thunder with the scoring champ and westbrook, and then they faced the team with the best and second best players in the NBA with and All Star PF.

still pretty impressive. :bowdown:


It was impressive but who cares about a moniker like superstar when the players played like crap on a stick?

This year's Lakers did not play well at all, neither did the Heat.

I would have been more impressed if their adversaries were playing up to their ability but it was impressive nonetheless.

[Go Getter]

That was my point.

Its not a fair comparison. Or do you think we should compare Hamilton to Dirk?

It was a totally different team dynamic without a clear cut best player or superstar. Therefore it does not belong in the discussion.

Jesus man, I just showed you that Stockton's 3rd option in 96 was easily better than Dirk's 2nd option this year.

What more do you want? Stockton played with more help. Its obvious.


not really but if you say so.

you take scoring averages and advanced stats and run with them without looking at the actual game.

Horny and Karl scored well BECAUSE of Stockton...or is Nash the only player who makes others better?

Lmao at you thinking Horny could have done what Terry did to Lebron.

[Yung D-Will]

:roll:
Some of the points made in this thread

[DMAVS41]

It was impressive but who cares about a moniker like superstar when the players played like crap on a stick?

This year's Lakers did not play well at all, neither did the Heat.

I would have been more impressed if their adversaries were playing up to their ability but it was impressive nonetheless.

Wade was pretty damn good in the finals.

How about mentioning Pippen's horrible back in the 98 finals that prevented him from doing anything the last 2 games.

What is your excuse on that one? Why couldn't stockton take advantage of that?

[Bigsmoke]

It was impressive but who cares about a moniker like superstar when the players played like crap on a stick?

This year's Lakers did not play well at all, neither did the Heat.

I would have been more impressed if their adversaries were playing up to their ability but it was impressive nonetheless.

but with that said.


:wtf: @ guys saying he's one of the best defensive rebounding players in history.

Tyson Chanders was the man guarding Aldridge and Bosh so its easy for Dirk to look good defensively guarding Joel Anthony. Gasol was playing like garbage so Dirk didnt have to worry about guarding him that much.

[DMAVS41]

not really but if you say so.

you take scoring averages and advanced stats and run with them without looking at the actual game.

Horny and Karl scored well BECAUSE of Stockton...or is Nash the only player who makes others better?

Lmao at you thinking Horny could have done what Terry did to Lebron.

What do you mean? They are different players.

Horny played more like Ray Allen.

I can tell you this, Lebron would have been dead tired chasing Horny around on screens all game. And yes, Horny could have gotten open on him using those screens.

18 points on shooting percentages Terry could only dream of in 96 dude.

What is the excuse for the Jazz not making the Finals?

[DMAVS41]

but with that said.


:wtf: @ guys saying he's one of the best defensive rebounding players in history.

Tyson Chanders was the man guarding Aldridge and Bosh so its easy for Dirk to look good defensively guarding Joel Anthony. Gasol was playing like garbage so Dirk didnt have to worry about guarding him that much.

Do you understand what defensive rebounds are?

They are rebounds grabbed on the defensive side of the court.

Dirk is one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history. Its just a fact.

Dirk is 11th all time in total defensive rebounds in the playoffs
Dirk is 13th all time in defensive rebound percentage in the playoffs


How is that not one of the best ever?

He's ahead of Robinson, Moses, Shaq, Malone, Hakeem, Kemp, and Mourning.......

Wake up.

[Go Getter]

Do you understand what defensive rebounds are?

They are rebounds grabbed on the defensive side of the court.

Dirk is one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history. Its just a fact.

Dirk is 11th all time in total defensive rebounds in the playoffs
Dirk is 13th all time in defensive rebound percentage in the playoffs


How is that not one of the best ever?

He's ahead of Robinson, Moses, Shaq, Malone, Hakeem, Kemp, and Mourning.......

Wake up.


A lot of players scored more than Dirk on better fg%....does that mean they are better scorers than Dirk?

I think not.

[Go Getter]

Do you understand what defensive rebounds are?

They are rebounds grabbed on the defensive side of the court.

Dirk is one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history. Its just a fact.

Dirk is 11th all time in total defensive rebounds in the playoffs
Dirk is 13th all time in defensive rebound percentage in the playoffs


How is that not one of the best ever?

He's ahead of Robinson, Moses, Shaq, Malone, Hakeem, Kemp, and Mourning.......

Wake up.
:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

A lot of players scored more than Dirk on better fg%....does that mean they are better scorers than Dirk?

I think not.

Actually this is again false.

In NBA playoff history no player has better overall efficiency than Dirk scoring more than 25 ppg. Dirk's 58.4% TS ranks 1st among players to average 25 ppg or more in playoff history.

LOL

Care to keep making shit up?

[Go Getter]

:roll:
Some of the points made in this thread
:roll: at you showing your face here again after your (self-imposed I guess) exile.

How did CJ Miles breakout year go?


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Bigsmoke]

Do you understand what defensive rebounds are?

They are rebounds grabbed on the defensive side of the court.

Dirk is one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history. Its just a fact.

Dirk is 11th all time in total defensive rebounds in the playoffs
Dirk is 13th all time in defensive rebound percentage in the playoffs


How is that not one of the best ever?

He's ahead of Robinson, Moses, Shaq, Malone, Hakeem, Kemp, and Mourning.......

Wake up.

i meant defensive and rebounding not defensive rebounder as in there are 11 and 13 players i can name from the top of my head that are better than Dirk in defensive and in rebounding.

[Go Getter]

Actually this is again false.

In NBA playoff history no player has better overall efficiency than Dirk scoring more than 25 ppg.

LOL

Care to keep making shit up?


Dude, it depends on what one considers when taking efficiency stats.

Also, I said that some scorers score MORE than Dirk without being a better scorer....you put the 25 pts a game up there.

Most 7 footers don't shoot threes so comparing TS% against other PF's is clearly unfair.

[DMAVS41]

i meant defensive and rebounding not defensive rebounder as in there are 11 and 13 players i can name from the top of my head that are better than Dirk in defensive and in rebounding.

Well of course.

That isn't what defensive rebounding is though. And I never made the other claim at all.

Dirk is simply one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history. Its a fact.

[Go Getter]

i meant defensive and rebounding not defensive rebounder as in there are 11 and 13 players i can name from the top of my head that are better than Dirk in defensive and in rebounding.


Only 13?:oldlol:

[Go Getter]

Well of course.

That isn't what defensive rebounding is though. And I never made the other claim at all.

Dirk is simply one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history. Its a fact.
:no:
having some of the best numbers is misleading (sometimes).

If Dirk were to be pit against the top 20 rebounders of all-time he would look pretty bad imho.

[DMAVS41]

Dude, it depends on what one considers when taking efficiency stats.

Also, I said that some scorers score MORE than Dirk without being a better scorer....you put the 25 pts a game up there.

Most 7 footers don't shoot threes so comparing TS% against other PF's is clearly unfair.

The threes actually don't impact that much. Its the free throws that do.

Is free throw not important? I actually don't love TS very much....but its faster than listing the fg% and ft% of each player.

Which would still make Dirk as one of the most efficient 25ppg or more scorers in playoff history.

You are now debating facts sir.

[DMAVS41]

:no:
having some of the best numbers is misleading (sometimes).

If Dirk were to be pit against the top 20 rebounders of all-time he would look pretty bad imho.

He's played against Duncan and KG in the playoffs.

In the playoffs vs KG? Dirk averaged 16 rebounds per game in the series against Garnett.


Look dude. Look at the lengths you are going to knock Dirk. Now his numbers don't count because you feel that aren't worth anything.

What?

Come back to reality. This isn't a debate solely on your terms for what you think is fair or not.

I could argue that Stockton's assist totals are hugely inflated playing with Karl Malone.

How easy is it to get assists throwing it to one of the best scorers in NBA history?

Goes both ways....the only difference is that my argument makes sense. Yours doesn't.

Trying to discredit his rebounding.....LOL

[Go Getter]

The threes actually don't impact that much. Its the free throws that do.

Is free throw not important? I actually don't love TS very much....but its faster than listing the fg% and ft% of each player.

Which would still make Dirk as one of the most efficient 25ppg or more scorers in playoff history.

You are now debating facts sir.


I'm not debating anything you say, I'm saying that for a 7 footer 47% isn't great, that there are scorers with more points avg than Dirk who aren't as good as him at scoring, and that Stockton can be considered better by logical people.

"Stop your lies" --Lakas

[Go Getter]

He's played against Duncan and KG in the playoffs.

In the playoffs vs KG? Dirk averaged 16 rebounds per game in the series against Garnett.


Look dude. Look at the lengths you are going to knock Dirk. Now his numbers don't count because you feel that aren't worth anything.

What?

Come back to reality. This isn't a debate solely on your terms for what you think is fair or not.

I could argue that Stockton's assist totals are hugely inflated playing with Karl Malone.

How easy is it to get assists throwing it to one of the best scorers in NBA history?

Goes both ways....the only difference is that my argument makes sense. Yours doesn't.

Trying to discredit his rebounding.....LOL

Who is trying to discredit rebounding?

I'm saying that stats are misleading, like the ones you posted that have Dennis Rodman averaging a lower rebound rate than Dirk. With your logic Dirk>Dennis at rebounding when we all know this to be false.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not debating anything you say, I'm saying that for a 7 footer 47% isn't great, that there are scorers with more points avg than Dirk who aren't as good as him at scoring, and that Stockton can be considered better by logical people.

"Stop your lies" --Lakas

Dirk isn't a traditional 7 footer.....

But regardless, there are a total of 7 players in NBA playoff history to score 25ppg or more in the playoffs and boast a better fg% than Dirk.

Thats it.

And again, that doesn't take into account 3 point shooting or ft shooting.

Just fg%.

Sorry.

[Go Getter]

He's played against Duncan and KG in the playoffs.

In the playoffs vs KG? Dirk averaged 16 rebounds per game in the series against Garnett.


Look dude. Look at the lengths you are going to knock Dirk. Now his numbers don't count because you feel that aren't worth anything.

What?

Come back to reality. This isn't a debate solely on your terms for what you think is fair or not.

I could argue that Stockton's assist totals are hugely inflated playing with Karl Malone.

How easy is it to get assists throwing it to one of the best scorers in NBA history?

Goes both ways....the only difference is that my argument makes sense. Yours doesn't.

Trying to discredit his rebounding.....LOL


What argument?

You will only listen to comments that are made in Dirk's favor.

Not really an argument we're just talking at each other now.

[Bigsmoke]

@ DMAVS4

out of these group of players, who do u considered an inferior rebounder than Dirk?

Moses Malone
Kareem
Charles Oakley
Big Ben
Shaq
Robert Parish
Rodman
Kevin Willis
Hakeem
Duncan
KG
Kevin Love
Charles Barkley
Dikembe Mutombo
Joakim Noah
Kareem
Wilt
Nate Thurmond
Bill Russell
Dwight Howard

all of these guys are better than Dirk on defense too besides Kevin Love which i can EASILY replace him with either Ewing or David Rob.

[Go Getter]

Dirk isn't a traditional 7 footer.....

But regardless, there are a total of 7 players in NBA playoff history to score 25ppg or more in the playoffs and boast a better fg% than Dirk.

Thats it.

And again, that doesn't take into account 3 point shooting or ft shooting.

Just fg%.

Sorry.


Again, you dismiss my point or don't even understand it.:facepalm

Again, my point was that the players who boast better playoff averages than Dirk aren't necessarily better scorers than him. I'd probably take him over one or two of those guys.

Which relates to my pointy about rebounding avgs, get it?

[DMAVS41]

Who is trying to discredit rebounding?

I'm saying that stats are misleading, like the ones you posted that have Dennis Rodman averaging a lower rebound rate than Dirk. With your logic Dirk>Dennis at rebounding when we all know this to be false.

Rodman has a much higher rebounding rate than Dirk

its not even close.

What?

The only area of rebounding that was close was on defensive rebound rate.

Rodman was 6th all time at 26.2
Dirk was 13th all time at 24.8


Overall and offensively Rodman is easily superior.

Which again brings ups back to Dirk being a great defensive rebounder. Its a fact dude. Its not misleading. Its just a fact. He's a 7 footer that has always been very good at it.

[DMAVS41]

Again, you dismiss my point or don't even understand it.:facepalm

Again, my point was that the players who boast better playoff averages than Dirk aren't necessarily better scorers than him. I'd probably take him over one or two of those guys.

Which relates to my pointy about rebounding avgs, get it?

Yes, but that doesn't mean those other guys are less of players.

I'd take Mourning over Dirk rebounding. Does that mean Dirk is less of a rebounder than the stats show? Not really....it just means Mourning is better than the stats show.

But again, objectively by any rational measure Dirk has been one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history.

[DMAVS41]

@ DMAVS4

out of these group of players, who do u considered an inferior rebounder than Dirk?

Moses Malone
Kareem
Charles Oakley
Big Ben
Shaq
Robert Parish
Rodman
Kevin Willis
Hakeem
Duncan
KG
Kevin Love
Charles Barkley
Dikembe Mutombo
Joakim Noah
Kareem
Wilt
Nate Thurmond
Bill Russell
Dwight Howard

all of these guys are better than Dirk on defense too besides Kevin Love which i can EASILY replace him with either Ewing or David Rob.


1. Defense has nothing to do with this. So i don't know why you bring that up at all. This was solely about defensive rebounding...that is it.

2. Overall rebounding? Or defensive rebounding? Two different things.

Overall rebounding I would take probably every single one of those guys over Dirk.

Defensive rebounding I would take Dirk over a few of those guys for sure.

[chips93]

i hate when people say that player X is soft, etc because hes tall and a poor rebounder.

there's so many more natural gifts that help rebounding, hand size, quickness, strength, vertical, wingspan. so to say a player is lazy,etc. because hes tall and a poor rebounder is silly. id rather have a guy with good wingspan, athleticism, and hands, then a tall guy with none.

ben wallace is far more physically gifted than nowitzki when it comes to rebounding.

[DMAVS41]

What argument?

You will only listen to comments that are made in Dirk's favor.

Not really an argument we're just talking at each other now.

Its a valid counter point.

You claim Dirk's rebounding is inflated. You don't give a reason why Dirk's rebounding is inflated, you just say it is. OK.

The I counter with Stockton's assists. I say they are inflated (i actually don't think they are, but just to counter your BS) because he played with Karl Malone.

Of course his assists are going to be inflated, he played with one of the best and most versatile scorers in NBA history.

It goes both ways. You can't just discount everything Dirk does and then turn around and no do the same for Stockton.

You follow?

[Go Getter]

Yes, but that doesn't mean those other guys are less of players.

I'd take Mourning over Dirk rebounding. Does that mean Dirk is less of a rebounder than the stats show? Not really....it just means Mourning is better than the stats show.

But again, objectively by any rational measure Dirk has been one of the best defensive rebounders in playoff history.

:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

i hate when people say that player X is soft, etc because hes tall and a poor rebounder.

there's so many more natural gifts that help rebounding, hand size, quickness, strength, vertical, wingspan. so to say a player is lazy,etc. because hes tall and a poor rebounder is silly. id rather have a guy with good wingspan, athleticism, and hands, then a tall guy with none.

ben wallace is far more physically gifted than nowitzki when it comes to rebounding.

i hate when they say that when the player in question is not a poor rebounder to begin with.

[Go Getter]

Its a valid counter point.

You claim Dirk's rebounding is inflated. You don't give a reason why Dirk's rebounding is inflated, you just say it is. OK.

The I counter with Stockton's assists. I say they are inflated (i actually don't think they are, but just to counter your BS) because he played with Karl Malone.

Of course his assists are going to be inflated, he played with one of the best and most versatile scorers in NBA history.

It goes both ways. You can't just discount everything Dirk does and then turn around and no do the same for Stockton.

You follow?
I never said Dirk's numbers were inflated I said the stat is misleading when you look at it without regards to actually watching the games (and other factors).

[Go Getter]

i hate when people say that player X is soft, etc because hes tall and a poor rebounder.

there's so many more natural gifts that help rebounding, hand size, quickness, strength, vertical, wingspan. so to say a player is lazy,etc. because hes tall and a poor rebounder is silly. id rather have a guy with good wingspan, athleticism, and hands, then a tall guy with none.

ben wallace is far more physically gifted than nowitzki when it comes to rebounding.


The only real advantages Ben has over Dirk in rebounding is heart, hustle, and strength...Ben was never a leaper, has long arms but is like 6'7"....it's about heart and Dirk's heart is not into banging under the boards...but he's a Champ so whatever works.

*And if Ben had to score he'd probably be significantly worse in that area so...

Dirk is on the softer side when it comes to prime time Pf's though.

I mean you can call it a knock or whatever but it's the truth as I see it.

[Doctor Rivers]

The Dallas Mavericks are champions of the basketball world! They defeated the evil Miami Heat in 6 games to take the 2011 title on Miami's own floor! Dirk Nowtizki led a team of role players against a team with 2 and a half superstars and came out victorious! Dirk is the best scorer in the league and the best closer in the league! He should have been the league MVP! He's a top 15 player of all time!

Wait... what?

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2011/06/dirk-is-great-but-lets-take-it-easy.html

stop spamming

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol:

Why would you laugh at that comment?

So you think Elgin Baylor is much worse in terms of scoring than the stats show?

Baylor scored 27 points per game for his career in the playoffs and he did so on worse efficiency than a lot of guys and at a much faster pace.

I don't think that means Baylor is a worse scorer at all. Just means maybe dirk compared to babylor as scorers is a little closer than the ppg stat initially indicates.


And again, I'm using rebound rates. Not totals. Its not like I'm claiming Dirk is one of the best rebounders ever because he averages over 10 a game.

I'm using the actual rebound rate that factors in all the differences that you claim to be missing. They are built into the stats I'm using.

You are pathetic man....straight up.

[DMAVS41]

I never said Dirk's numbers were inflated I said the stat is misleading when you look at it without regards to actually watching the games (and other factors).

Watching the games includes too much bias.

Dirk is an effective rebounder. All the objective measures show this.

The advanced measures that adjust for pace and total rebounds available show this.


Its you that is messed up. Not the stats. You expect me to go off your biased opinion instead of 11 years of evidence?

Are you really this dense?

[DMAVS41]

I'm still waiting on one list with Stockton in the top 20.

:lol

[Go Getter]

Rodman has a much higher rebounding rate than Dirk

its not even close.

What?

The only area of rebounding that was close was on defensive rebound rate.

Rodman was 6th all time at 26.2
Dirk was 13th all time at 24.8


Overall and offensively Rodman is easily superior.

Which again brings ups back to Dirk being a great defensive rebounder. Its a fact dude. Its not misleading. Its just a fact. He's a 7 footer that has always been very good at it.

You or one of your proponents quoted a rebounding chart where Dirk was above Rodman.

Stating that Dirk is a very good rebounder is false....he steps up in the playoffs, and is good at rebounding but you are taking it too far.

[Doctor Rivers]

Watching the games includes too much bias.

Dirk is an effective rebounder. All the objective measures show this.

The advanced measures that adjust for pace and total rebounds available show this.


Its you that is messed up. Not the stats. You expect me to go off your biased opinion instead of 11 years of evidence?

Are you really this dense?


LOL OWNED

[DMAVS41]

You or one of your proponents quoted a rebounding chart where Dirk was above Rodman.

Stating that Dirk is a very good rebounder is false....he steps up in the playoffs, and is good at rebounding but you are taking it too far.

Taking it too far?

I'm just giving you the evidence and information.

Dirk is a good rebounder overall. Hardly a poor rebounder like many claim.

He also happens to be a very good defensive rebounder. Where he is not good is on the offensive end.

Thats it. What I am saying is not even my opinion. Its just a fact. You can't ignore 11 years of evidence in the playoffs.

[indiefan24]

**** yo bitchass blog

:oldlol:

[chips93]

The threes actually don't impact that much. Its the free throws that do.

Is free throw not important? I actually don't love TS very much....but its faster than listing the fg% and ft% of each player.

Which would still make Dirk as one of the most efficient 25ppg or more scorers in playoff history.

You are now debating facts sir.


ts% does a lot more than add fg, ft, and 33pt% together.

it adds them at the ratio that the players take those shots

take for example daquan cook and ray allen

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cookda02.html

ray allen shoots better from 3, from the field and from the free throw line, yet cook has a higher ts%. cook is a more efficeint player, even though ray allen appears to be better at shooting from everywhere

this is what many miss with ts%. cook takes a ton of 3s. (9.7 per 36 mins as opposed to 4.7 for ray) this pulls up his ts%. even though he shoots worse from 3, he takes so much more of them, that it pulls up his ts%, because obviously 3s are a very efficeint shot.

so ts% isnt just addind fg, ft, and 3pt%, its tells us a lot more than that

[DMAVS41]

ts% does a lot more than add fg, ft, and 33pt% together.

it adds them at the ratio that the players take those shots

take for example daquan cook and ray allen

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cookda02.html

ray allen shoots better from 3, from the field and from the free throw line, yet cook has a higher ts%. cook is a more efficeint player, even though ray allen appears to be better at shooting from everywhere

this is what many miss with ts%. cook takes a ton of 3s. (9.7 per 36 mins as opposed to 4.7 for ray) this pulls up his ts%. even though he shoots worse from 3, he takes so much more of them, that it pulls up his ts%, because obviously 3s are a very efficeint shot.

so ts% isnt just addind fg, ft, and 3pt%, its tells us a lot more than that

i know what it is.

i was just responding to him asking me to post only the fg% and ft%...and that would take too long

in this case, ts% is a fast an easy way to compare overall scoring efficiency between guys like stockton, malone, and dirk

instead of going through every guy and giving him the raw numbers...that would just take too long

[chips93]

i hate when they say that when the player in question is not a poor rebounder to begin with.


http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=reboundRate&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dreboundRate

hes outside the top 100 in rebound rate, hes not a good rebounder

[DMAVS41]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=reboundRate&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dreboundRate

hes outside the top 100 in rebound rate, hes not a good rebounder

We are talking about the playoffs.

He's in the top 50 all time in playoff rebound rate overall.

Top 13 in defensive rebound rate all time in the playoffs.

Has averaged 10.4 rebounds per game in the playoffs over 11 years now.

I guess Karl Malone wasn't a good rebounder either. All of Malone's numbers are nearly identical to Dirk's in the playoffs for their careers. Malone was a slightly better rebounder.


He's a good rebounder.

Why do you people insist on debating facts?

[chips93]

I guess Karl Malone wasn't a good rebounder either. All of Malone's numbers are nearly identical to Dirk's in the playoffs for their careers. Malone was a slightly better rebounder.



not really though, karl malone's is a little higher, but that includes years when malone was in his mid to late 30s.

dirk played in the playoffs from when he was 23 to 32, while malone played from when he was 23 til he was 40. so just looking at it like that is pretty unfair to malone, as his number is being dragged down by his later years, while dirk's is when he was in his prime.

dirks best year would be the middle of the pack for malone

[Balla_Status]

Terry played good in TWO GAMES in the Finals. Don't be ridiculous. Go Getter stay being a moron.

[hookul]

not really though, karl malone's is a little higher, but that includes years when malone was in his mid to late 30s.

dirk played in the playoffs from when he was 23 to 32, while malone played from when he was 23 til he was 40. so just looking at it like that is pretty unfair to malone, as his number is being dragged down by his later years, while dirk's is when he was in his prime.

dirks best year would be the middle of the pack for malone

err...no!?! Just simply no. Why do people want to make things up when everyone can just check it themselves?

From age 24-35...the years Malone averaged >10rpg in the playoffs, Malone had 3 seasons >13 rpg, two slightly above and one with 16rpg (where he only played 3 games).

In the 8 other seasons during that span, Malone basically rebounded between 10.5 and 12 rpg.

This is exactly the span where Dirk is as well with one of them >13 rpg as well.

It is TRUE that Dirk rpg number will most likely go down with age. But it is simply NOT TRUE that Dirks best season would be middle of the pack for Malone. In fact, in Malones 18 seasons in the playoffs, he had 3 seasons better than Dirk's 2 best seasons in terms of rebounding. This is not "middle of the pack", it is right up there with Malone's best seasons.

[chips93]

err...no!?! Just simply no. Why do people want to make things up when everyone can just check it themselves?

From age 24-35...the years Malone averaged >10rpg in the playoffs, Malone had 3 seasons >13 rpg, two slightly above and one with 16rpg (where he only played 3 games).

In the 8 other seasons during that span, Malone basically rebounded between 10.5 and 12 rpg.

This is exactly the span where Dirk is as well with one of them >13 rpg as well.

It is TRUE that Dirk rpg number will most likely go down with age. But it is simply NOT TRUE that Dirks best season would be middle of the pack for Malone. In fact, in Malones 18 seasons in the playoffs, he had 3 seasons better than Dirk's 2 best seasons in terms of rebounding. This is not "middle of the pack", it is right up there with Malone's best seasons.



i was using trb%, a much better stat than just rpg

[hookul]

i was using trb%, a much better stat than just rpg

And when using trb% for defensive boards only - the thing DMavs argued about the whole thread, Malone has only 1 seasons better than Dirk in the playoffs in this case and Dirk has the 3 next best seasons in less years played. So, what does that then mean...it means that Malone gets the better trb% because he played closer to the basket on the offensive end and was more in a position to grab availabe offensive rebounds to boost the his trb%. In terms of defensive rebounding those numbers actually support the claim that Dirk is a better defensive rebounder than Malone - the very thing claimed in this thread all night long. The only reason why Dirks rebounding rates are lower compard to more classical post players is because he plays more on the perimeter as this is his comfort zone with a high-% shot. It is not because he is a bad rebounder per se or cannot get the rebounds when he is in the position (like literally in the physical position on the floor close to the basket) - it is because his style of play limits the ability to get offense rebounds in the first place. For defense rebounds, he is right there with some of the players people claim to be elite defensive board rebounders esp. in the playoffs (e.g. Rodman, Wallace or Duncan).

[DMAVS41]

And when using trb% for defensive boards only - the thing DMavs argued about the whole thread, Malone has only 1 seasons better than Dirk in the playoffs in this case and Dirk has the 3 next best seasons in less years played. So, what does that then mean...it means that Malone gets the better trb% because he played closer to the basket on the offensive end and was more in a position to grab availabe offensive rebounds to boost the his trb%. In terms of defensive rebounding those numbers actually support the claim that Dirk is a better defensive rebounder than Malone - the very thing claimed in this thread all night long. The only reason why Dirks rebounding rates are lower compard to more classical post players is because he plays more on the perimeter as this is his comfort zone with a high-% shot. It is not because he is a bad rebounder per se or cannot get the rebounds when he is in the position (like literally in the physical position on the floor close to the basket) - it is because his style of play limits the ability to get offense rebounds in the first place. For defense rebounds, he is right there with some of the players people claim to be elite defensive board rebounders esp. in the playoffs (e.g. Rodman, Wallace or Duncan).


thank you.

is anyone saying Dirk is this great rebounder? nope.

but acting like he's a poor rebounder is just silly.

he's actually a great defensive rebounder and more than adequate overall.



how many times do you think guys like malone or shaq or traditional post players just rebound their misses close to the basket offensively to inflate their overall rebounding numbers.

the reason i bring up defensive rebounding is because that is where people generally unfairly hate on Dirk. saying he's "soft" or that he can't box out or isn't "tough" enough to bang down low.

when in reality, the only thing keeping Dirk from being one of the best rebounders in playoff history is those offensive put back rebounds off of his own misses around them.

given his style of play that doesn't generally lead to misses like that, he's been more than an adequate rebounder overall.

its total bullshit perceptions. i thought people would finally let go of them after the title. now, its almost worse than ever. people trying to find a way to claim his rebounds don't count......and now people are claiming his team this year was as good as those teams stockton had on the jazz....etc.

all bullshit. you people just need to admit you were wrong about Dirk and move on.

[creepingdeath]

all bullshit. you people just need to admit you were wrong about Dirk and move on.
Eff the haters. Some people will never come around. The Mavs are world champs...! :bowdown:

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llah6gVagI1qdqpcqo1_500.gif

[rmt]

Before the playoffs started, Dirk was known as a choker - failing in '06 and losing to an 8th seed as the league MVP. Now he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

This over-rating of Dirk will pass. So much what have you done lately. If the new season starts and say Griffin goes on a tear, it'll be dunks and flash all over the media.

On to Disney World and Wimbledon.

[DMAVS41]

Before the playoffs started, Dirk was known as a choker - failing in '06 and losing to an 8th seed as the league MVP. Now he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

This over-rating of Dirk will pass. So much what have you done lately. If the new season starts and say Griffin goes on a tear, it'll be dunks and flash all over the media.

On to Disney World and Wimbledon.

Only idiots thought of Dirk as a choker. He was a top 30 player of all time at heading into this year.

This is just about a player finally getting his due. Don't confuse it.

Dirk is now officially a top 20 player. I've seen two or three lists with him in the top 17 already.

Deal with it.

[jlauber]

I honestly believe that Dirk's career is worthy of top-20 status. The interesting aspect would be if Dirk can duplicate this year's post-season run, and lead another team to a title. Then he would be a top-15 player, and knocking on the door of the top-10.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

before the playoffs, Dirk was an afterthought.
after the playoffs....best player in the league...top 20 all-time....better than Malone. LOL.

[DMAVS41]

before the playoffs, Dirk was an afterthought.
after the playoffs....best player in the league...top 20 all-time....better than Malone. LOL.

Only an afterthought all time to people that don't know the history of the game.

If you think top 20 is so laughable, where do you rank Dirk?

[KingBeasley08]

Only an afterthought all time to people that don't know the history of the game.

If you think top 20 is so laughable, where do you rank Dirk?
I have him Top 25

[DMAVS41]

Still waiting for 1 list with Stockton in the top 20.

Go Getter....do you yield yet?

[SCdac]

Eff the haters. Some people will never come around. The Mavs are world champs...! :bowdown:

From what people would make you think on this board.... DIRK is a world champion. The Mavs, ehhh, not so much.

Kind of annoying how much Dirk-homers drown out the real Mavs fans on this site. (not saying that you are one or the other)

You'd think there'd be some decent pieces about a future HOF'er in Jason Kidd being the starting PG for a championship team, leading the Mavs in assists, steals, and three's. I'm not sure I've even seen one.

[joshwake]

Stockton?

The guy that played his entire career with one of the 20 best players ever and only made 2 finals. No titles.....and was a much worse playoff performer than Dirk.

There is absolutely no argument for Stockton over Dirk. Not one.

Dirk beats him in every area other than longevity....and even then its getting close because Dirk already has 11 great years....
You are a ****ing retard.

[DMAVS41]

You are a ****ing retard.

Great post.

Care to find me 1 list with Stockton over Dirk?

[DMAVS41]

From what people would make you think on this board.... DIRK is a world champion. The Mavs, ehhh, not so much.

Kind of annoying how much Dirk-homers drown out the real Mavs fans on this site. (not saying that you are one or the other)

You'd think there'd be some decent pieces about a future HOF'er in Jason Kidd being the starting PG for a championship team, leading the Mavs in assists, steals, and three's. I'm not sure I've even seen one.

Make a thread about it. LOL......instead of just bitching and moaning about a player getting credit that you clearly don't like

:oldlol:

[SCdac]

Make a thread about it. LOL......instead of just bitching and moaning about a player getting credit that you clearly don't like

:oldlol:

why would I make a thread about it? ..... and what makes you think I "don't like" Dirk? .... because I've been critical of him in the past? pleeease :facepalm

I got not problem with the positive Dirk threads...

Just saying, there's plenty of positive pieces about the Mavs in general at this moment in time...

Yet, all you Dirk-homers are too blind to recognize a team, franchise, city achievement.

Typical.

Ginobili29483 , would you consider yourself more a of a Dirk fan or a Mavs fan? (if you had to pick one) ... just curious, tbh

[magnax1]

You are a ****ing retard.
I like this post. Especially after the "had Dirk top 30 heading into this year" post. It's not like he's played any better this playoffs then he has since 06, so I don't see a reason to rank him a whole 15 spots higher.

[Heavincent]

Make a thread about it. LOL......instead of just bitching and moaning about a player getting credit that you clearly don't like

:oldlol:

The post you quoted is 100% correct.

Kidd was an absolutely vital part of that team. People don't give him the credit he deserves. He's the best passer in the league, a fantastic defender (probably the best PG in the league defensively), great shooter, a good rebounder, and just his presence on the court makes the team play more controlled basketball.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

people are suddenly wayyyy over rating Dirk.
Did he suddenly because some unstoppable force? I must have missed that.
Yes, he played well in the 4th quarters. And that counts for something...it counted for the fMVP.
He is still not a top-3 player in the game and never has been at any point in his career.

[DMAVS41]

I like this post. Especially after the "had Dirk top 30 heading into this year" post. It's not like he's played any better this playoffs then he has since 06, so I don't see a reason to rank him a whole 15 spots higher.

They way people rank here and the thin margin between those players? Absolutely it does.

I've had Dirk in my own personal top 15 for a couple years now....I was just going off the criteria used on this board.

I guess I was just way ahead of the curve.

This board really gets butt hurt when BS perceptions are blown out of the water.

"A Dirk led team will never win"........

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DirkNowitzki41]

people are suddenly wayyyy over rating Dirk.
Did he suddenly because some unstoppable force? I must have missed that.
Yes, he played well in the 4th quarters. And that counts for something...it counted for the fMVP.
He is still not a top-3 player in the game and never has been at any point in his career.

du verruckt?

[DMAVS41]

people are suddenly wayyyy over rating Dirk.
Did he suddenly because some unstoppable force? I must have missed that.
Yes, he played well in the 4th quarters. And that counts for something...it counted for the fMVP.
He is still not a top-3 player in the game and never has been at any point in his career.

He's easily top 3 right now and definitely has been before.

LOL

[SCdac]

They way people rank here and the thin margin between those players? Absolutely it does.

I've had Dirk in my own personal top 15 for a couple years now....I was just going off the criteria used on this board.

I guess I was just way ahead of the curve.

This board really gets butt hurt when BS perceptions are blown out of the water.

"A Dirk led team will never win"........

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

It's comical how butt hurt you are over what strangers on a message board think.... It's basically an infatuation.

get over it, buddy.

your team won lead by your favorite player. You don't have ruminate endlessly about every past opinion of Dirk and the Mavs, and how it conflicts with what you believe in. That's weird.

[DMAVS41]

It's comical how butt hurt you are over what strangers on a message board think.... It's basically an infatuation.

get over it, buddy.

your team won lead by your favorite player. You don't have ruminate endlessly about every past opinion of Dirk and the Mavs, and how it conflicts with what you believe in. That's weird.

Just giving the title proper relevance.

If you want a thread on Kidd....make one.

Its not hard. It takes 10 seconds.

That makes more sense than bitching and moaning about Dirk like you have the past week.

[SCdac]

Just giving the title proper relevance.

If you want a thread on Kidd....make one.

Its not hard. It takes 10 seconds.

That makes more sense than bitching and moaning about Dirk like you have the past week.

What's sad is, the thought of creating a thread about Kidd, let alone a positive thread about anybody on the Mavs not named Dirk.... probably has never crossed your mind once. Basically, you're infatuated with the way people did or didn't regard Dirk... No different than a Kobe stan. :facepalm

[Go Getter]

Terry played good in TWO GAMES in the Finals. Don't be ridiculous. Go Getter stay being a moron.


We are talking about playoffs idiot.

Terry hit 9-11 threes against the Lakers, hit more threes in the playoffs than any other player and came up with clutch buckets.

2 good games?


Please.

[magnax1]

They way people rank here and the thin margin between those players? Absolutely it does.

I've had Dirk in my own personal top 15 for a couple years now....I was just going off the criteria used on this board.

I guess I was just way ahead of the curve.

This board really gets butt hurt when BS perceptions are blown out of the water.

"A Dirk led team will never win"........

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
I'm sorry, there isn't a logical case for Dirk in the top 15. The guy has never been top 3, maybe top 5 once, and never was better then a guy like Ewing, who in no way is top 15, let alone top 20.

[DMAVS41]

What's sad is, the thought of creating a thread about Kidd, let alone a positive thread about anybody on the Mavs not named Dirk.... probably has never crossed your mind once. Basically, you're infatuated with the way people did or didn't regard Dirk... No different than a Kobe stan. :facepalm

What?

I've been fighting with people on Dirk on here for over a year now. Nobody under-rates or even talks about Kidd here.

If they did, I would chime in.

Notice how I didn't make this thread.

If you can't understand the difference then you are just an idiot. As a Dirk fan I've had to listen to all the BS about him for years. And make no mistake, it was all total BS.

Now Dirk is getting his proper due. List after list is coming out with him in the top 18, the top 17, and the top 15.

Its great to see. Then I come on here and see people saying Stockton is better.....What?

People can't stand to have their BS perceptions blown out of the water so they hold on dearly to them in the face of all evidence....its extremely sad.

A simple admission of being wrong would do the trick, but we both know people won't be willing to do that.

[DMAVS41]

I'm sorry, there isn't a logical case for Dirk in the top 15. The guy has never been top 3, maybe top 5 once, and never was better then a guy like Ewing, who in no way is top 15, let alone top 20.

Ewing?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Find me a current list with Ewing ahead of Dirk please......

[tpols]

This thread is hilarious.:oldlol:

Never seen anyone this emotionally attached to where their favorite player is ranked by other people on the internet.

[SCdac]

What?

I've been fighting with people on Dirk on here for over a year now. Nobody under-rates or even talks about Kidd here.

If they did, I would chime in.

Notice how I didn't make this thread.

If you can't understand the difference then you are just an idiot. As a Dirk fan I've had to listen to all the BS about him for years. And make no mistake, it was all total BS.

Now Dirk is getting his proper due. List after list is coming out with him in the top 18, the top 17, and the top 15.

Its great to see. Then I come on here and see people saying Stockton is better.....What?

People can't stand to have their BS perceptions blown out of the water so they hold on dearly to them in the face of all evidence....its extremely sad.

A simple admission of being wrong would do the trick, but we both know people won't be willing to do that.

Do you consider yourself like the "Dirk police" on this message board?

(serious question)

[Go Getter]

:facepalm
Still waiting for 1 list with Stockton in the top 20.

Go Getter....do you yield yet?


I'm not looking for random lists man, why don't YOU find ME a list with Dirk over John?

[magnax1]

Ewing?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Find me a current list with Ewing ahead of Dirk please......
You aren't serious, right? I was thinking there's going to be some white text somewhere.....

[Go Getter]

He's easily top 3 right now and definitely has been before.

LOL
:no:

Dirk is not a better basketball player than Dwight, Lebron, and Wade.

He PLAYED better when it counted this year though so he deserves his credit.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Ewing?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Find me a current list with Ewing ahead of Dirk please......

here's a list...
1
2
3
.
.
.
19
20
21 Ewing
.
.
.
26
27 Dirk
.
.
.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm


I'm not looking for random lists man, why don't YOU find ME a list with Dirk over John?

Easy:

http://nbalegacy.blogspot.com/2011/06/nba-legacy-all-time-25-june-2011.html

LOL

[DMAVS41]

:no:

Dirk is not a better basketball player than Dwight, Lebron, and Wade.

He PLAYED better when it counted this year though so he deserves his credit.

He led his team to 57 wins...even though he missed 9 games and the team went 2-7 without him

Then he led his team to the title with much less help than Wade/Lebron had.

How is Lebron a better basketball player right now?

Dirk put up better stats in the playoffs and won the title....and also had similar regular season success despite the above circumstances.

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

This thread is hilarious.:oldlol:

Never seen anyone this emotionally attached to where their favorite player is ranked by other people on the internet.

Its fun to discuss.

Funny how it takes the opposite to turn into a debate.

Never seen people so emotionally attached to where a player they don't like is ranked.

Goes both ways tpols.

You should go back to your threads about Rose being better than Dirk though....those were great for a good chuckle

[Go Getter]

He led his team to 57 wins...even though he missed 9 games and the team went 2-7 without him

Then he led his team to the title with much less help than Wade/Lebron had.

How is Lebron a better basketball player right now?

Dirk put up better stats in the playoffs and won the title....and also had similar regular season success despite the above circumstances.

:facepalm


I agreed that Dirk played better in the playoffs and gave him props for winning but he is not better than Lebron or Wade man.

Basketball is a team game.

[DMAVS41]

I agreed that Dirk played better in the playoffs and gave him props for winning but he is not better than Lebron or Wade man.

Basketball is a team game.

And he played individually better than Lebron in the playoffs overall. And did so facing much tougher circumstances.

I understand Wade...and even Howard to an extent.

But Lebron? No way does he deserve to be ranked over Dirk right now.

[rmt]

Easy:

http://nbalegacy.blogspot.com/2011/06/nba-legacy-all-time-25-june-2011.html

LOL

That's some list - LOL at Kobe ahead of Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem at #12. Didn't even go further to see where Dirk is listed.

[NugzHeat3]

Ewing?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Find me a current list with Ewing ahead of Dirk please......

Shut up. Dirk isn't anywhere near as good as Ewing in his prime.

[magnax1]

Shut up. Dirk isn't anywhere near as good as Ewing in his prime.
:lol
Quite a fantastic name change.

[indiefan24]

I'm impressed. 12 pages of Dmavs defending Dirk.

[SCdac]

I'm impressed. 12 pages of Dmavs defending Dirk.

wait, you're not impressed by his 5000+ posts in less than a year?? :oldlol:

[BlackJoker23]

wait, you're not impressed by his 5000+ posts in less than a year?? :oldlol:
dont sell him short bro. he has 8600 posts on his other account.

so more than 13000 posts in 1 phucking year. lmfao. on pace to trump gobb's post count in 3 years.

[NBAller]

If Dirk was ranked top20 easily, then surely this ring makes him move up spots. I'll probably never type ISH into my browser again if somebody argues that. Ppl here value the ring more than anything else, no matter how it was acquired.

[adri41]

Booooooooooooooooo.

[Go Getter]

If Dirk was ranked top20 easily, then surely this ring makes him move up spots. I'll probably never type ISH into my browser again if somebody argues that. Ppl here value the ring more than anything else, no matter how it was acquired.
Dirk was never top 20 easily and this ring doesn't make him move up spots.

:D


Don't get mad guys I'm joking

[joshwake]

All of this is a perfect example of how most people overrate championships over empirical evidence from actually watching players.... oh i dunno... PLAY?! If for some reason the Mavs had lost, but Dirk had played a better series, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, yet, he would (or rather, should) not be considered any less of a player. If Stockton had happens to fall into a situation where he won a title his first year as a bench playing rooking, pundits would eventually weigh it in much to heavily when assessing his career. There are so many variables that play into titles, it really is weighted way too heavily when considering who is a better basketball player.

[indiefan23]

Ewing?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Find me a current list with Ewing ahead of Dirk please......

Umm... Ewing was a beast on both ends of the floor. You find me a season of Dirk's that compares to 29 PPG, 11 RPG, 2 dimes, 1 steal and 4 freaking blocks on 55% shooting and we can start talking about Dirk and Ewing. Ewing took both Dream's Rockets and MJ's Bulls at their peak to 7 games while John Starks was his second best player and his knees were balky and very non-prime. Dirk deserves credit for his great title run, and no one wants to take that away from him, but he just can't compete with a guy like Ewing who's impact on every single game he played was felt so dramatically.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Here is the latest over-ratings of Dirk by ISH posters:
Dirk > Malone
Dirk > Stockton
Dirk > Duncan if Dirk wins again next year.

:facepalm

[miles berg]

I have him at #17 all time on my list right now, which is right around the top 15.

I cant believe how underrated this guy is on here.

Just laughable.

People actually think LeBron James is better than him. It is like they didnt watch the NBA Finals.

Dirk is legendary whether you guys want to admit it or not. 11 straight 50 win seasons, only player in his entire 13 year career to make it out of the West outside of the Spurs/Lakers dynasty's. MVP, FMVP, one of 5 players in NBA history to put up 25/10 in the playoffs.

I just dont understand this forum other than there are alot of people that simply dont understand basketball that post here.

This guy is the 4th or 5th best player in the post Jordan era of the NBA after Shaq, Duncan, & Bryant along with Wade. Has been a top 5 player since the '02/'03 season.

Facts are facts, he has had 3 different eras of teams around him and yet he has never let his team win less than 50 games.

Absolutely amazing player.

Top 17 all time.

[Go Getter]

I have him at #17 all time on my list right now, which is right around the top 15.

I cant believe how underrated this guy is on here.

Just laughable.

People actually think LeBron James is better than him. It is like they didnt watch the NBA Finals.

Dirk is legendary whether you guys want to admit it or not. 11 straight 50 win seasons, only player in his entire 13 year career to make it out of the West outside of the Spurs/Lakers dynasty's. MVP, FMVP, one of 5 players in NBA history to put up 25/10 in the playoffs.

I just dont understand this forum other than there are alot of people that simply dont understand basketball that post here.

This guy is the 4th or 5th best player in the post Jordan era of the NBA after Shaq, Duncan, & Bryant along with Wade. Has been a top 5 player since the '02/'03 season.

Facts are facts, he has had 3 different eras of teams around him and yet he has never let his team win less than 50 games.

Absolutely amazing player.

Top 17 all time.
:no:

Lebron is a better basketball player than Dirk and one series won't change that.

Dwight is also better.

I have other players who I think are better as well but Dwight and Lebron have pretty clear cases.

[indiefan23]

I'm impressed. 12 pages of Dmavs defending Dirk.

Heh, I'm impressed you're still here on your copycat handle. :)

[Go Getter]

Heh, I'm impressed you're still here on your copycat handle. :)
Damn man, I thought that WAS you for a sec:lol

[creepingdeath]

Here is the latest over-ratings of Dirk by ISH posters:
Dirk > Malone
Dirk > Stockton
Dirk > Duncan if Dirk wins again next year.

:facepalm
So? You overrate Kobe and argue that Dirk has never been a top 3 player in the game when he's cleary had a case from 2004-2006 (and this season). Deal with it, it goes both ways, so don't act all high and mighty as if Dirk homers are so different from other players' fans.

[indiefan24]

Heh, I'm impressed you're still here on your copycat handle. :)

Nah, I'm my own man.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

So? You overrate Kobe and argue that Dirk has never been a top 3 player in the game when he's cleary had a case from 2004-2006 (and this season). Deal with it, it goes both ways, so don't act all high and mighty as if Dirk homers are so different from other players' fans.

Kobe is widely considered a top-10 or top-12 player all time and the 2nd best SG. How is that ME over rating Kobe?

Deal with it.

[creepingdeath]

Kobe is widely considered a top-10 or top-12 player all time and the 2nd best SG. How is that ME over rating Kobe?

Deal with it.
That's not the part that I'm refuting. But keep underrating Dirk - "he can now be compared to McHale". :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe is widely considered a top-10 or top-12 player all time and the 2nd best SG. How is that ME over rating Kobe?

Deal with it.

That wasn't his point.

Its about you claiming that Mchale vs Dirk can now be a discussion. Sorry, you lose all cred at that point.

So don't expect to be taken seriously after posts like that......

[indiefan23]

That wasn't his point.

Its about you claiming that Mchale vs Dirk can now be a discussion. Sorry, you lose all cred at that point.

So don't expect to be taken seriously after posts like that......

What, you think McHale sucks or something? Dude had the best low post game of all time. Dirk has the best high post game of all time if you want some parity. McHale is a serious all time great. Isn't that comparison a compliment?

[DMAVS41]

What, you think McHale sucks or something? Dude had the best low post game of all time. Dirk has the best high post game of all time if you want some parity. McHale is a serious all time great. Isn't that comparison a compliment?

Mchale deserves to be ranked in the top 40 or top 35.

Dirk deserves to be ranked in the top 25 or top 20.


There is a clear difference between the two. It would be like comparing Dr. J and Bird. Anyone that watched them play knows that Bird was the better player.

Doesn't mean Dr. J wasn't great though. Just means Bird was clearly better.

Exact same situation with Mchale and Dirk. Dirk clearly deserves to be ranked higher.

[Sakkreth]

KG is overrated.

[indiefan23]

Mchale deserves to be ranked in the top 40 or top 35.

Dirk deserves to be ranked in the top 25 or top 20.


There is a clear difference between the two. It would be like comparing Dr. J and Bird. Anyone that watched them play knows that Bird was the better player.

Doesn't mean Dr. J wasn't great though. Just means Bird was clearly better.

Exact same situation with Mchale and Dirk. Dirk clearly deserves to be ranked higher.

Exact same? Seem to me like they are entirely different players. Do you have any reasons for thinking this. It looks to me like you're just making declarative sentences and feel like that's enough.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Totally agree. Dirk has been great, but don't put him in the same sentence as Larry Bird.
I think this overreaction is temporary, it will die down soon.

[indiefan24]

Totally agree. Dirk has been great, but don't put him in the same sentence as Larry Bird.
I think this overreaction is temporary, it will die down soon.

He won't make it past the first round next season, but that's ok, he got his championship.

[ILLsmak]

A few things:

I think Dirk's ring will mean more as time progresses. Once Wade and LeBron are retired and their resume is set in stone, it will make Dirk look better because he beat them.

Dwight Howard is not a better impact player than Dirk. There are players in the NBA that can offer more what Dwight offers than what Dirk offers. Tyson Chandler is a good Dwight replacement. Is he as good... no way, but he gets it done. Nobody in the league that plays PF can do what Dirk does. Maybe nobody in history.

John Stockton is better than Dirk.

In order to rank a player, you can't cross compare. What makes John Stockton a better player than Dirk is that he's arguably the greatest PG of all time. And, to me, someone who has a case for All-Time best at their position should be ranked higher than a top tier player at their position. To use stats is asinine. Stockton had a hard job. Think of all of the time he handled the ball and didn't get any stat for it. How many times he made the right play and got no stat for it. That's not to say Dirk doesn't as well... but Stockton is just a better baller.

Lastly, Dirk's team played great. Marion practically outplayed LeBron. JJ Barea stepped up vs the Lakers, Terry played great and J Kidd (in the same way as Stockton) was balling from the PG position even though it wasn't measured in stats. Did you guys see Kidd playing great D, blocking guys like Kobe and Wade? Every rotation player on the Mavs was playing well.

But without Dirk, it wouldn't have happened because his presence made the defense change. The difference between this Dirk and every other Dirk is this time his teammates actually did their part. And his insane shooting numbers were reflective of facing a defense that is worried about helping off of their shooters.

-Smak

[brain drain]

John Stockton is better than Dirk.

In order to rank a player, you can't cross compare. What makes John Stockton a better player than Dirk is that he's arguably the greatest PG of all time. And, to me, someone who has a case for All-Time best at their position should be ranked higher than a top tier player at their position. To use stats is asinine. Stockton had a hard job. Think of all of the time he handled the ball and didn't get any stat for it. How many times he made the right play and got no stat for it. That's not to say Dirk doesn't as well... but Stockton is just a better baller.


No way is John Stockton the greatest PG of all time.
He had great longevity, but otherwise, there's practically no sensible argument you can make for Stockton over Magic.

Also, look at it this way: If Stockton was the GOAT PG and Malone as somewhere betwee #2 and #5 GOAT PF, and both hat VERY long productive careers, how is it possible that they only made it out of the West twice? Something doesn't compute here.

Here's what's up:
Stockton once had a Playoff PER of 25.7 (in a 3 games first round series in '89, where they lost).
Otherwise, he never was at or above a PER of 23.
He had 6 playoff seasons with a PER between 20 and 22.7.
Then he had 11 playoff seasons with a PER between 17 and 20.
And one playoff season with a PER of 14.2


Magic, on the other hand, had 3 playoff runs with a PER above 25.


Now, Dirk: he had 6 years with a playoff PER of 25.7 or better.
His career AVERAGE ist at 24.7.

Basically, Dirk's production in the playoffs blows Stockton out of the water. There's no comparion. And Stockton is NOT the goat PG unless counting raw career totals is all you do.

[adri41]

Boooooooooo.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

That wasn't his point.

Its about you claiming that Mchale vs Dirk can now be a discussion. Sorry, you lose all cred at that point.

So don't expect to be taken seriously after posts like that......

McHale is one of the greatest PFs of all time. Won rings.
Dirk is honored to mentioned along the same lines as McHale.
Also, Dirk WISHES he had McHale's low-post moves.

[DMAVS41]

Exact same? Seem to me like they are entirely different players. Do you have any reasons for thinking this. It looks to me like you're just making declarative sentences and feel like that's enough.

You find me one current list with Mchale higher than Dirk. If you can, I'll debate it with you.

Until then, its like comparing Bird and Dr. J....one player was clearly better and it shouldn't be debated.

Thats what Dirk and Mchale are. Dirk is just easily a better player and has had a better career......

[DMAVS41]

McHale is one of the greatest PFs of all time. Won rings.
Dirk is honored to mentioned along the same lines as McHale.
Also, Dirk WISHES he had McHale's low-post moves.

Dirk is a top 20 player of all time.

I've never seen Mchale ranked higher than 35.

LOL

Dirk shits on Mchale.

Playoff averages

26/10/3 for Dirk

19/7/2 for Mchale


:rolleyes:

[indiefan23]

You find me one current list with Mchale higher than Dirk. If you can, I'll debate it with you.

Until then, its like comparing Bird and Dr. J....one player was clearly better and it shouldn't be debated.

Thats what Dirk and Mchale are. Dirk is just easily a better player and has had a better career......

Who cares about 'current lists'. A list is just something a dude makes to fanboy his favourite players. Being on a bunch of lists doesn't actually make you better. Why not talk about people's game and play on the court since that's what's relevant, not what a bunch of jack off sports writers say. Honestly, I'm just sick of people claiming shit is a fact and then trying to back it up cuz a bunch of morons at ESPN like broussard and Bayless said so. I personally hate it when people say "my list". I don't have a list because they are ridiculous and pretentious. Sure, you can say one player is better then another sometimes, but in what world is there a legit reason Isiah Thomas > AI or vice versa.

Either way, presence on lists does not actually make players better or worse cuz while their ranks will change their play stays exactly the same.

[NBAller]

Weeeeee areee the championnnsssss. Noooooo timeeeee for lossserrrrs cause weeee areeeee the championsssss of the worlddddddddddd:banana:

[Micku]

Oh! Dirk vs Mchale?

Well, Dirk is greater than Mchale and is the better first option. Mchale had a chance to take over with the Celts once Bird got injured, but Mchale was never able to be that guy. But it' also because Mchale wasn't the same player with injuries and age.

Dirk is more durable and a better 1st option. However, we don't know how would Mchale do as a 1st option. But Dirk is more accomplish than Mchale with MVP, and Finals MVP.

With that said, Mchale was a beast. Mchale owns the post and anything in the paint. Dirk has nothing on Mchale with the post moves and Mchale is a better defender than Dirk. Mchale offensive skill set could be better than Dirk because Mchale could take it inside or out. But Dirk is the better ball handler and spread the defense a lot more. Dirk is also the better passer and the better scorer. Mchale is more efficient.

But if you would to take Mchale and Dirk and have them go head to head, I'm guessing Dirk will have a harder time stopping Mchale than Mchale stopping Dirk even though they'll both get their numbers.

Mchale is more a specialist. He is strictly a PF, the post player. Mchale is probably the most unstoppable player in the post in NBA history. If Mchale didn't play with Bird, he may have scored more and become a 1st option player, but that never happened. And this is why Dirk is greater than Mchale now.

With that said, peak Mchale was awesome. He is up there with the top PFs. Proficient with both the offense and defense.

___

In terms of Dirk legacy? His legacy have great upgrade since he won the championship. I'm not sure if he is better than Malone or Barkley still, but it's better to enjoy the Mavs and their victory. I would prefer to compare Dirk with the others when he retires, but I don't think there is a necessary "better" player. More like in tiers. Each great player will bring something different to the table.

[Balla_Status]

Dirk is a God.