Dirk's legacy with two titles?

[airchibundo507]

How would he be viewed atm if he had two rings (since he was clearly robbed of his first)?

[Balla_Status]

top 10

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I would begin to put him up there with KG and Malone.

[Scoooter]

It will be interesting if he repeats.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

top 10

wtf?

[Theoo's Daddy]

It will be interesting if he repeats.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: honorary ohioans would kill it if they repeat

[noob cake]

How would he be viewed atm if he had two rings (since he was clearly robbed of his first)?

If Dirk repeats next year, he surpasses Duncan

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

If Dirk repeats next year, he surpasses Duncan

my 3 year old baby boy knows better.

[Theoo's Daddy]

If Dirk repeats next year, he surpasses Duncan
:facepalm :facepalm :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :wtf:

[B]

If Dirk repeats next year, he surpasses DuncanYou have Duncan around number 20?

[Balla_Status]

Duncan never won b2b

[RazorBaLade]

top 15. period.

[the_wise_one]

Same as right now - 2nd GOAT PF. He won't surpass Duncan.

[jlauber]

If Dirk wins a second ring with a playoff run like the one he just had...he should move ahead of Hakeem on any list. Dirk has been a guaranteed 50+ winner every season, while Hakeem could only do that five times. Both would have one MVP and two Finals MVPs (assuming that Dirk would win another.) He would have done more with comparable rosters. And let's face reality, one of Hakeem's rings should have had an asterick attached, since MJ did not play on the 55-27 Bulls that season. And even then, Hakeem's Rockets barely beat a Ewing-led team that had no more talent than Hakeem's Rockets.

[Scoooter]

It's not just resumes and rings though. That's why Kobe could win another ring or two and still not be ranked over Jordan. You have to ask yourself if Dirk Nowitzki was a better basketball player than Hakeem Olajuwon. Hakeem was supremely talented.

[noob cake]

Same as right now - 2nd GOAT PF. He won't surpass Duncan.

Rings doesn't mean s*(&.
Is Russel better than Jordan? F*(@ No

Tony Parker and Ginobli are both better than anyone Dirk has ever had.

Dirk repeating next year cements him as the GOAT PF.

edit: assuming you don't start listing Hakeem, etc as PF.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Rings doesn't mean s*(&.
Is Russel better than Jordan? F*(@ No

Tony Parker and Ginobli are both better than anyone Dirk has ever had.

Dirk repeating next year cements him as the GOAT PF.

edit: assuming you don't start listing Hakeem, etc as PF.

:facepalm
or
:rolleyes:
or
:wtf:
or:hammerhead:

[miles berg]

He wouldnt move any really. He would still be around that #15 spot and he would still be the 2nd best PF ever after Tim Duncan.

[50inchvertical]

If Dirk wins a second ring with a playoff run like the one he just had...he should move ahead of Hakeem on any list. Dirk has been a guaranteed 50+ winner every season, while Hakeem could only do that five times. Both would have one MVP and two Finals MVPs (assuming that Dirk would win another.) He would have done more with comparable rosters. And let's face reality, one of Hakeem's rings should have had an asterick attached, since MJ did not play on the 55-27 Bulls that season. And even then, Hakeem's Rockets barely beat a Ewing-led team that had no more talent than Hakeem's Rockets.
:oldlol: at the idea of astericks. Well give the Mavs an asterisk for this playoff run since they had a 24,000,000 payroll advantage on the Miami Heat, 37,000,000 over the OKC Thunder, 1,000,000 deficit to the Lakers, and 20,000,000 over the Blazers.

On average, they spent over 20,000,000 in payroll over their opponents. And therefore, asterisks all the Laker's championships too. It's just an unfair advantage

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Rings doesn't mean s*(&.
Is Russel better than Jordan? F*(@ No

Tony Parker and Ginobli are both better than anyone Dirk has ever had.

Dirk repeating next year cements him as the GOAT PF.

edit: assuming you don't start listing Hakeem, etc as PF.

can you please remind me of something:
Who is the ONLY PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY to be named...
All-NBA AND All-Defensive in each of his first 13 years.

Also, please remind me how many times Dirk was named all-defensive.

Thanks.

[noob cake]

can you please remind me of something:
Who is the ONLY PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY to be named...
All-NBA AND All-Defensive in each of his first 13 years.

Also, please remind me how many times Dirk was named all-defensive.

Thanks.

50's, 60's NBA, an era of stacked NBA teams and 100 point game. Not comparable to the modern 80+ era.

[CJ Mustard]

Rings doesn't mean s*(&.
Is Russel better than Jordan? F*(@ No

Tony Parker and Ginobli are both better than anyone Dirk has ever had.

Dirk repeating next year cements him as the GOAT PF.

edit: assuming you don't start listing Hakeem, etc as PF.Rings don't mean sh*t, but yet somehow Dirk winning a ring next year puts him ahead of Duncan...Makes perfect sense....:rolleyes:

[noob cake]

Rings don't mean sh*t, but yet somehow Dirk winning a ring next year puts him ahead of Duncan...Makes perfect sense....:rolleyes:

Playoff run bro. Duncan barely has 3 Finals MVP. Oh wait, remember all Parker/Ginobli heroics during the playoffs?

[SCdac]

Tony Parker and Ginobli are both better than anyone Dirk has ever had.


Let's not act like Dirk was playing with chopped liver...

For whatever it's worth ... comparing Dirk's team to Duncans 03 team... as far as when his teammates went in the draft

Jason Kidd - #2 overall pick (38 years old)
Tyson Chandler - #2 overall pick
Shawn Marion - #9 overall pick
Jason Terry - #10 overall pick
Peja Stojakovic - #12 overall pick
Brendan Haywood #20 overall pick
Barea - undrafted

David Robinson - #1 overall pick (37 years old)
Speedy Claxton - #20 overall pick
Tony Parker - #28 overall pick
Stephen Jackson - #42 overall pick
Malik Rose - #44 overall pick
Manu Ginobili - #57 overall pick
Bowen - undrafted

you can't say that Dirk's teammates, at least at one point in their careers, were never considered top prospects and some of the better eligible talent up for the draft.

And closer to the here and now, outside of Dirk, going into the playoffs his fellow starters had like 300+ games of playoff experience combined which shouldn't be discounted in why they were so strong a team. Ginobili was a rookie and Parker was a second year player in Duncan's first championship of the 2000's.

[ShaqAttack3234]

If Dirk wins a second ring with a playoff run like the one he just had...he should move ahead of Hakeem on any list. Dirk has been a guaranteed 50+ winner every season, while Hakeem could only do that five times. Both would have one MVP and two Finals MVPs (assuming that Dirk would win another.) He would have done more with comparable rosters. And let's face reality, one of Hakeem's rings should have had an asterick attached, since MJ did not play on the 55-27 Bulls that season. And even then, Hakeem's Rockets barely beat a Ewing-led team that had no more talent than Hakeem's Rockets.

Just shut up, Hakeem was simply a better player, and I like Dirk. I defended him before this title, but to suggest Dirk would even have a case over Hakeem is asinine.

[Chalkmaze]

Dirk has really awesome defense and when you add that with his extremely dominating post game, blinding speed, and superman rebounding :rockon:

btw... Dirk had a few helpers, most notably his deep pocketed owner friend.

[Jotaro Durant]

He should be top 20 on everybody's list if that happens.

I would have him somewhere between 17-20 if he gets that done next season.

[Rose]

I definitely move him into the top 15. I think he's right around 17 right now.

[Go Getter]

Just shut up, Hakeem was simply a better player, and I like Dirk. I defended him before this title, but to suggest Dirk would even have a case over Hakeem is asinine.
:rockon:

[Brunch@Five]

While I agree that Hakeem is the better basketball player, it is notable that he hovered around .500 ball with his team for so long. Certainly does not speak for his impact on his teammates. Guys also have to realize that Hakeem wasn't always 1994 Hakeem. He had some years where he played well below his ability.
Also his offense is greatly exaggerated. Had only 4 years scoring over 25 ppg and did so on worse efficiency than Dirk. You can easily make the case that Dirk was a better offensive player.

[TheCorporation]

:facepalm

[Teanett]

Let's not act like Dirk was playing with chopped liver...

For whatever it's worth ... comparing Dirk's team to Duncans 03 team... as far as when his teammates went in the draft

Jason Kidd - #2 overall pick (38 years old)
Tyson Chandler - #2 overall pick
Shawn Marion - #9 overall pick
Jason Terry - #10 overall pick
Peja Stojakovic - #12 overall pick
Brendan Haywood #20 overall pick
Barea - undrafted

David Robinson - #1 overall pick (37 years old)
Speedy Claxton - #20 overall pick
Tony Parker - #28 overall pick
Stephen Jackson - #42 overall pick
Malik Rose - #44 overall pick
Manu Ginobili - #57 overall pick
Bowen - undrafted

you can't say that Dirk's teammates, at least at one point in their careers, were never considered top prospects and some of the better eligible talent up for the draft.

And closer to the here and now, outside of Dirk, going into the playoffs his fellow starters had like 300+ games of playoff experience combined which shouldn't be discounted in why they were so strong a team. Ginobili was a rookie and Parker was a second year player in Duncan's first championship of the 2000's.

ok.
should be easy to win a title with a supporting cast of kwame brown, greg oden, grant hill (38 years old), tyrus thomas and adam morrison.
i'm not saying who had the better support, just that your argumentation makes no sense at all.
now go have a bag of chips and ride your donkey!

[rmt]

50's, 60's NBA, an era of stacked NBA teams and 100 point game. Not comparable to the modern 80+ era.

The ONLY PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY to be named...
All-NBA AND All-Defensive in each of his first 13 years is TIM DUNCAN born in 1976.

This thread is laughable - Dirk is nowhere near the players Duncan and Hakeem were on the defensive end of the court (you know, that's half of the game).

[rmt]

Rings doesn't mean s*(&.
Is Russel better than Jordan? F*(@ No

Tony Parker and Ginobli are both better than anyone Dirk has ever had.

Dirk repeating next year cements him as the GOAT PF.

edit: assuming you don't start listing Hakeem, etc as PF.

Tony Parker was a 20 year old, 2nd year player who was benched repeatedly for Speedy Claxton in 03. Manu was a rookie and averaged 7.6 pts that year.

Dirk if he repeats - GOAT PF? Ridiculous statement.

[asdf1990]

He will be the second white GOAT in the top 10 .

[Bring-Your-Js]

He will be the second white GOAT in the top 10 .

So long as Bird is secured.

* 4 Finals Trips
* 3 NBA MVPs
* 2 Finals MVPs (27/14/4/.482; 24/10/10/.484)

That's only what covers 1984-87. He's the last player to win three consecutive MVPs and one of the few to do it in history, the only player other than MJ to win both MVP/Finals MVP in the same season more than once.

:bowdown:

[iamgine]

Let's not act like Dirk was playing with chopped liver...

For whatever it's worth ... comparing Dirk's team to Duncans 03 team... as far as when his teammates went in the draft

Jason Kidd - #2 overall pick (38 years old)
Tyson Chandler - #2 overall pick
Shawn Marion - #9 overall pick
Jason Terry - #10 overall pick
Peja Stojakovic - #12 overall pick
Brendan Haywood #20 overall pick
Barea - undrafted

David Robinson - #1 overall pick (37 years old)
Speedy Claxton - #20 overall pick
Tony Parker - #28 overall pick
Stephen Jackson - #42 overall pick
Malik Rose - #44 overall pick
Manu Ginobili - #57 overall pick
Bowen - undrafted

you can't say that Dirk's teammates, at least at one point in their careers, were never considered top prospects and some of the better eligible talent up for the draft.

And closer to the here and now, outside of Dirk, going into the playoffs his fellow starters had like 300+ games of playoff experience combined which shouldn't be discounted in why they were so strong a team. Ginobili was a rookie and Parker was a second year player in Duncan's first championship of the 2000's.

Comparing draft is worth absolutely nothing.

[creepingdeath]

Airchibundo is still alive? And not bashing Dirk? :eek:

The last time you were regularly posting was around the time when you claimed Dirk is worse than Melo, not an MVP candidate because he went through a shooting slump (although he was ejected in one game and injured in another) and overrated. Fortunately, the next game Dirk buried your Nuggets with a 34/10/10 triple double (and Melo going 10/9/1). :lol

[DMAVS41]

A 2nd title would further solidify Dirk as one of the best players of all time.

I love Dirk....probably one of my top 3 favorite players of all time.

But he can't touch Duncan or Hakeem all time in my opinion. Another title would still leave him far behind those guys simply because I think they were both just better basketball players.

I have Dirk around 15th all time right now....another title might not move him up that much at all.

At this point, outside the top 12 or so there is a lot of subjectivity anyway.

Baylor, Hondo, Dr. J, Pettit, Oscar, West......I think its already debatable at this point based on resume alone.

I didn't see a lot of those guys play....like most here....so its really hard to say.

I did see the majority of Dr. J's career and I definitely think Dirk was a better player.

Dirk would be closer to that top 12 status with another title, but he wouldn't be quite yet there.

Dirk would need to play another 3 or 4 seasons at a high level, win 50 plus each year, and add 2 more titles to break into that range of a player.


But honestly from here on in its all gravy with Dirk. He's cemented as at worst a top 20 player of all time and around the 15 range for a lot of people now. Anything else he does can only move him up slightly. It would take a legendary remainder of his career to start challenging Moses or Kobe or Hakeem or Bird for the end of the top 10.

I love Dirk, but I don't see that happening.

[PowerGlove]

Airchibundo is still alive? And not bashing Dirk? :eek:

The last time you were regularly posting was around the time when you claimed Dirk is worse than Melo, not an MVP candidate because he went through a shooting slump (although he was ejected in one game and injured in another) and overrated. Fortunately, the next game Dirk buried your Nuggets with a 34/10/10 triple double (and Melo going 10/9/1). :lol

You have a posting summary of everyone here?

LOL @ Dirk being 15th all time.

Dude's jockriding to the extreme.

[L8kersfan222]

You have a posting summary of everyone here?

LOL @ Dirk being 15th all time.

Dude's jockriding to the extreme.


lol phagg0t

[DMAVS41]

You have a posting summary of everyone here?

LOL @ Dirk being 15th all time.

Dude's jockriding to the extreme.

List some of the guys you have ahead of Dirk in that range please.

I'm assuming its Baylor, Pettit, Dr. J, and Hondo.....

All debatable on resume alone.

[PowerGlove]

List some of the guys you have ahead of Dirk in that range please.

I'm assuming its Baylor, Pettit, Dr. J, and Hondo.....

All debatable on resume alone.

Because KG, Barkley, Moses Malone,Oscar dont exist either right?

F*ck it, lets just put Dirk in the top 10.

[DMAVS41]

Because KG, Barkley, Moses Malone,Oscar dont exist either right?

Of course they do.

I actually have Moses in my untouchable range so I didn't list him. I didn't list Oscar simply because I figured you would for sure rank him over Dirk even though you probably didn't see him play.
I was conceding both of them.

Lets do it a different way.

I'll give you guys I will concede should be better than Dirk so we can go off a common ground.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. Moses
12. Oscar
13. West


I'll give you those 13. I don't really think Oscar and West are for sure better, but I don't want to argue them.

After that.....you really think its laughable to put Dirk in the conversation with the other guys? Why?

[Collie]

Top 12. 2nd best PF ever.

Leading a back to back with no all-stars (assuming the Mavs players play the same way) is UNHEARD of. First of all, you can count on your fingers the number of guys who won 2 championships as the undisputed man. Top of my head (not counting the 50's): Russell, MJ, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, TD, Hakeem... and that's it. Isiah and Havlicek were more by committee.

No Wilt, No West, No Baylor, No Moses, No Dr J, No KG, No Bob Pettit, Oscar or any other person. Chew on that for a bit.

[PowerGlove]

I'm at a loss for words as to how Dirk went from the late 30's/high 40's like last year to the low teens.

How are you even ranking people? Not everything is debatable dude.

[DMAVS41]

I'm at a loss for words as to how Dirk went from the late 30's/high 40's like last year to the low teens.

How are you even ranking people? Not everything is debatable dude.

I am willing to have a legit conversation. But Dirk was vastly under-rated before this year....so talking about where people ranked him before is silly.

I'm asking you outside of those top 13 guys. Why do you find it laughable for Dirk to be compared to the next range of players?

Give me some legit reasons. Not a bunch of BS about where he was before.

Why do you feel Elgin Baylor was a much better player?
Why do you feel Hondo was a much better player?

Why should Barkely and KG and Malone be for sure ranked higher than Dirk?

Stuff like that.

[Collie]

I'm at a loss for words as to how Dirk went from the late 30's/high 40's like last year to the low teens.

How are you even ranking people? Not everything is debatable dude.

2 things kept Dirk from achieving historical greatness. The perception of choking and a ring. He accomplished both this playoffs. Name a guy who has an MVP, a Finals MVP 10 time all star, a ring and who isn't top 20 at least.

[DMAVS41]

2 things kept Dirk from achieving historical greatness. The perception of choking and a ring. He accomplished both this playoffs. Name a guy who has an MVP, a Finals MVP 10 time all star, a ring and who isn't top 20 at least.

He's top 20 for sure. That really isn't up for debate at this point. The rare company Dirk is in on many fronts prove that.

He's 1 of 13 guys to do the above.

He's 1 of 4 players to average over 25/10 in the playoffs. Two of those 4 guys, Baylor and Pettit, did it in a time much easier to get those numbers.

He's 1 of 5 players to lead a team to 50 plus wins over 10 straight times with a title, mvp, and finals mvp. The other 4 are Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Duncan.

Of course there is a lot more. He's top 20 for sure. Which is why I find it funny that people laugh at the notion he could be top 15.

NBA Legacy has him at 17 now.....but I'm sure haters will say they are Dirk homers or something:

http://nbalegacy.blogspot.com/2011/06/nba-legacy-all-time-25-june-2011.html

[PowerGlove]

Hondo's resume blows Dirk's out of the water. How is that even a legit question?

8- time champ
1- Finals MVP
5 time 1st team defense
more all star apperances

a great scorer just like Dirk but a better defender=better peak play.

We really shouldnt be discussing this at all.

Elgin was getting GOAT discussion. His numbers/peak play makes dirk look like chopped liver. Dirk has longevity and a ring on his side in that one, but so does a lot of players he really has no business being above either.

[creepingdeath]

You have a posting summary of everyone here?

Nope, but I remember airchibundo because he was trolling Dirk pretty badly back in the day. And he had a total mental breakdown when Melo had that stinger... he created a thread claiming that Melo could have died out there... :roll: Sorry, stuff like that is unforgettable.

[PowerGlove]

NBA legacy has Kobe ahead of Duncan.


Come on.:rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

Hondo's resume blows Dirk's out of the water. How is that even a legit question?

8- time champ
1- Finals MVP
5 time 1st team defense
more all star apperances

a great scorer just like Dirk but a better defender=better peak play.

We really shouldnt be discussing this at all.

Elgin was getting GOAT discussion. His numbers/peak play makes dirk look like chopped liver. Dirk has longevity and a ring on his side in that one, but so does a lot of players he really has no business being above either.

Actually when you adjust Elgin's numbers for pace Dirk's are better.

Lets look at the playoffs:

Baylor 27/13/4 44% fg 77% ft
Dirk 26/10/3 47% fg 38% 3 89% ft

It was harder to shoot back in Elgin's day so the efficiency stuff shouldn't be weighed too heavily.

Even without adjusting they are very similar. When you adjust though, Dirk's become better. This is where PER is handy. It adjusts for all the proper things to make an across era comparison at least decent.

Both played exactly 41 minutes per game in the playoffs......so its a perfect match as far as per minute production....which can often be the biggest thing wrong with PER.

Anyway:

Baylor 21.8 PER
Dirk 24.7 PER

Elgin's numbers don't really make for a good argument as to why he's better.

[DMAVS41]

NBA legacy has Kobe ahead of Duncan.


Come on.:rolleyes:

Its not perfect. No list is.

We are talking about a range of players though......

Where do you rank Dirk?

[PowerGlove]

Adjusting? Now that's bullshit.He scored what he scored. Does anyone adjust Bird's/Magic's number for pace?

[DMAVS41]

As for Hondo, he of course should be in that range for sure. What an amazing career.

But no, Hondo was not a scorer on the level of Dirk.

Once again, when you make the proper adjustments you get:

Hondo 17.5 PER in playoffs
Dirk 24.7 PER in playoffs


Say what you want about PER, but in terms of comparing across eras numbers its much better than the raw data that doesn't take into account the differences.

Hondo's argument over Dirk would be in the titles and defense categories.

I have no problem with someone saying Hondo was a better player, but to sit here and act like he's in a whole different league is misleading people.

He wasn't. And very few, if any, of the objective measures would lead you to that conclusion.

[DMAVS41]

Adjusting? Now that's bullshit.He scored what he scored. Does anyone adjust Bird's/Magic's number for pace?

Yes. That is what the advanced stuff does.

Wait. So you think we should just go off numbers not adjusted for the differences in the game or how these guys played compared to their peers?

Then Wilt is the GOAT. No question.

Of course there should be adjusting. LOL.....if you don't reasonably put into context numbers then there is no point in debating across eras.

LOL @ wanting to use just raw numbers for these guys. Lets just ignore that Baylor's team was scoring 120 pts per game and playing a sped up style that inflated the crap out of his numbers compared to the current era......

[PowerGlove]

Yes. That is what the advanced stuff does.

Wait. So you think we should just go off numbers not adjusted for the differences in the game or how these guys played compared to their peers?

Then Wilt is the GOAT. No question.

Of course there should be adjusting. LOL.....if you don't reasonably put into context numbers then there is no point in debating across eras.

LOL @ wanting to use just raw numbers for these guys. Lets just ignore that Baylor's team was scoring 120 pts per game and playing a sped up style that inflated the crap out of his numbers compared to the current era......

So when they were averaging 110 in the 84-85 season, we should use raw numbers?

:wtf:

[DMAVS41]

So when they were averaging 110 in the 84-85 season, we should use raw numbers?

:wtf:

Of course not.

Why would you? You have to adjust for pace.

Numbers are not the end all be all of arguments anyway. I was just addressing the numbers aspect of your post.

You said:

"Elgin Baylor's numbers shit on Dirk's"

This is not true when all the necessary adjustments are taken. That is all I'm saying.

I'm not saying Dirk is better than Baylor because his PER is higher or anything. I'm just showing you why you can't use Baylor's raw numbers as the main crux of an argument against Dirk.

That is all.

All numbers should be put into context.....just like everything should. Without it you will get a completely inaccurate picture.

Would you claim Hondo's 8 titles were won with him as the best player every year? Or Pippen's? Of course not. You put them into proper context.

That is what you have to do with numbers as well. Its the same stuff.

[DMAVS41]

Lets hear where you have Dirk as well.

I'm curious to see where you rank Dirk if you think its laughable for him to be in the that 15 range.

[PowerGlove]

As for Hondo, he of course should be in that range for sure. What an amazing career.

But no, Hondo was not a scorer on the level of Dirk.

Once again, when you make the proper adjustments you get:

Hondo 17.5 PER in playoffs
Dirk 24.7 PER in playoffs


Say what you want about PER, but in terms of comparing across eras numbers its much better than the raw data that doesn't take into account the differences.

Hondo's argument over Dirk would be in the titles and defense categories.

I have no problem with someone saying Hondo was a better player, but to sit here and act like he's in a whole different league is misleading people.

He wasn't. And very few, if any, of the objective measures would lead you to that conclusion.

So when we compare KG to Dirk, Dirk is better because he's supposedly an ungodly clutch scorer but when we compare him to players from the past, we use PER?

[DMAVS41]

So when we compare KG to Dirk, Dirk is better because he's supposedly an ungodly clutch scorer but when we compare him to players from the past, we use PER?

I was just addressing your numbers argument with PER that is all.

Everything should be taken into account. Numbers, along with everything though, must be put into proper context.

Comparing Dirk and KG is very hard. I have them very close and honestly I go back and forth on who I think deserves to be ranked higher.

But I am very high on KG and probably rank him higher than most.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Dirk has to win again to be considered in the top 25. I can't see that happening though.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk has to win again to be considered in the top 25. I can't see that happening though.

Please don't ruin a decent discussion. Go troll somewhere else.

[PowerGlove]

Lets hear where you have Dirk as well.

I'm curious to see where you rank Dirk if you think its laughable for him to be in the that 15 range.
He isnt in that 15 range on anyone's list but people like you. I feel like the way people rank is all wrong. Peak play, skills and individual awards are what I use for the most part. I'd have him in the low 20's.

[DMAVS41]

He isnt in that 15 range on anyone's list but people like you. I feel like the way people rank is all wrong. Peak play, skills and individual awards are what I use for the most part. I'd have him in the low 20's.

Well, I just showed you a list with him in that range.

Bill Simmons has him in that range as well.

Its definitely not just me.


I understand if you rank differently, and I respect your opinion. However, I hope you realize that if you are going to make pretty much a completely subjective argument that its a difficult debate to have.

For example, I rank players differently as well for my other list. I've had Dirk in the 15 range for a couple years. Why? Because I think Dirk is simply one of the best basketball players of all time.

That is my totally subjective opinion. Just like it would be yours that Dr. J or Barkley were simply much better basketball players.

I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong or anything, but that is what happens when the debate enters a subjective range.

Because of that, I try to stay as close to the criteria used here and in the media when ranking players. Which is a combination of everything....and generally includes a little more objectivity than the arguments you seem to want to present.

[PowerGlove]

I feel like Dirk cant be in that range when in reality he hasnt outplayed his counterparts of his era.

Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG all played better and were better players. Achievements cannot carry you past those players. Well, at least that's what I thought but you've said otherwise this offseason.

Those players were so great that they knocked other back like Barkley/Hakeem/Oscar/Magic/Bird/West/Baylor//Dr J/Pippen/etc...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143465
Look at this list, albeit its incomplete but there was no way the masses were ranking Dirk anywhere near the top 25 two years ago.

Does a ring matter that much?

How much did KG's greatness jump after a ring?

[boxclever]

If Dirk wins a second ring with a playoff run like the one he just had...he should move ahead of Hakeem on any list. Dirk has been a guaranteed 50+ winner every season, while Hakeem could only do that five times. Both would have one MVP and two Finals MVPs (assuming that Dirk would win another.) He would have done more with comparable rosters. And let's face reality, one of Hakeem's rings should have had an asterick attached, since MJ did not play on the 55-27 Bulls that season. And even then, Hakeem's Rockets barely beat a Ewing-led team that had no more talent than Hakeem's Rockets.
Dirk's my boy (I'm from Europe so have always rated him highly) however he'd have to do a lot more than repeat to go ahead of Hakeem. 50win seasons and everything else you want to throw around are irrelevant. Hakeem was one of the best & skilled players on both ends of the court. I can't say the same for Dirk.

[creepingdeath]

I feel like Dirk cant be in that range when in reality he hasnt outplayed his counterparts of his era.

Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG all played better and were better players. Achievements cannot carry you past those players. Well, at least that's what I thought but you've said otherwise this offseason.

Those players were so great that they knocked other back like Barkley/Hakeem/Oscar/Magic/Bird/West/Baylor//Dr J/Pippen/etc...


Look at this list, albeit its incomplete but there was no way the masses were ranking Dirk anywhere near the top 25 two years ago.

Does a ring matter that much?

How much did KG's greatness jump after a ring?

That's the thing, though. He did jump TREMENDOUSLY in everyone's lists. Be that fair or not ... it validated the rest of his career in most people's minds.

[DMAVS41]

I feel like Dirk cant be in that range when in reality he hasnt outplayed his counterparts of his era.

Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG all played better and were better players. Achievements cannot carry you past those players. Well, at least that's what I thought but you've said otherwise this offseason.

Those players were so great that they knocked other back like Barkley/Hakeem/Oscar/Magic/Bird/West/Baylor//Dr J/Pippen/etc...


Look at this list, albeit its incomplete but there was no way the masses were ranking Dirk anywhere near the top 25 two years ago.

Does a ring matter that much?

How much did KG's greatness jump after a ring?


Why do the masses matter? They have under-rated Dirk and what he's done for years.

This is my point. You claim KG was simply a much better player. That is purely subjective.

All the objective measures for them each are extremely close.

Like I said, you can rank however you want because its your list and you value certain things differently and have different biases.

Just like I value certain things differently and have different biases.

So in that way, we'll never get anywhere.

You say KG and Barkley are easily better. I completely disagree. I think Dirk is better than both of them.

Who is right? Neither of course. You are turning this into a totally subjective argument.

Which is fine, but that is an argument nobody can win.

So you lose the right to come on here and laugh at the notion that Dirk is in the top 15 range. You are using your own standards and forming your own opinion.

Basically you are saying that your opinion should be valued higher than others that disagree. That doesn't work in discussions like this.

There has to be some common ground or at least an argument rooted in objectivity.

[PowerGlove]

That's the thing, though. He did jump TREMENDOUSLY in everyone's lists. Be that fair or not ... it validated the rest of his career in most people's minds.

Give me examples muchacho.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766

Dirk at 48.

Kobe at 24.

This was after Dirk's MVP season. Kobe had to win a regular season MVP, and two rings and FMVP's to move into the top ten.

Dirk is all of sudden top twenty material for winning a ring and a finals MVP

[DMAVS41]

Give me examples muchacho.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766

I'm confused. That proves his point does it not.

KG was 37 on that list. It was done weeks before the 08 season. KG is now pretty much universally considered top 20 all time. Or very close to it.

He got a huge bump for the ring. Why? Because his career had been seriously under-rated up until 08.

[SCdac]

ok.
should be easy to win a title with a supporting cast of kwame brown, greg oden, grant hill (38 years old), tyrus thomas and adam morrison.
i'm not saying who had the better support, just that your argumentation makes no sense at all.
now go have a bag of chips and ride your donkey!

I can understand the Morrison/Kwame/etc comparisons if we're talking about players who never even came close to fulfilling their high-draft pick potential.... but we're not... The point still stands, Dirk is not playing with players who were ever really considered "scrubs" or even 2nd round draft pick-level players coming into the league, some of them are multiple all-stars with playoff experience while you couldn't say the same about most of the Spurs in 2003. Duncan made players around him better and his 5+ assists per game in the playoffs is indicative of that.

[creepingdeath]

Give me examples muchacho.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766

Dirk at 48.

Kobe at 24.

This was after Dirk's MVP season. Kobe had to win a regular season MVP, and two rings and FMVP's to move into the top ten.

Dirk is all of sudden top twenty material for winning a ring and a finals MVP
This was also after the season Dirk had an embarassing first round loss.

But the link you provided is a perfect example how rings change EVERYTHING. KG is at #38... do you think that would do him justice? I bet if you'd make the poll one year later after the Celtics title run, he'd be top 20-25, easily.

[DMAVS41]

Give me examples muchacho.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766

Dirk at 48.

Kobe at 24.

This was after Dirk's MVP season. Kobe had to win a regular season MVP, and two rings and FMVP's to move into the top ten.

Dirk is all of sudden top twenty material for winning a ring and a finals MVP


You just yourself said you have Dirk in the low 20's......

So why do you have Dirk ranked so close to number 20 if you think its laughable that he's "all of a sudden" top 20 material?

I'm not following you at all. Do you really think the gap between number 22 all time and number 15 all time is huge or something?

Its not.

[PowerGlove]

This was also after the season Dirk had an embarassing first round loss.

But the link you provided is a perfect example how rings change EVERYTHING. KG is at #38... do you think that would do him justice? I bet if you'd make the poll one year later after the Celtics title run, he'd be top 20-25, easily.
:facepalm

Do you read my posts?

Kobe was at 24. KG was at 38. Dirk was at 48.

Four years later after Kobe has won an MVP, two titles along with two finals mvps and after Garnett won a DPOY and a ring you are telling me that dirk is greater?????

[PowerGlove]

You just yourself said you have Dirk in the low 20's......

So why do you have Dirk ranked so close to number 20 if you think its laughable that he's "all of a sudden" top 20 material?

I'm not following you at all. Do you really think the gap between number 22 all time and number 15 all time is huge or something?

Its not.

Is the gap between seven and 1 huge?

As in Bird/Kobe/Duncan and mj?

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

Do you read my posts?

Kobe was at 24. KG was at 38. Dirk was at 48.

Four years later after Kobe has won an MVP, two titles along with two finals mvps and after Garnett won a DPOY and a ring you are telling me that dirk is greater?????

He addressed this. Dirk was seriously under-rated at the time......its was just after losing to the Warriors....LOL

And who is saying Dirk is great than Kobe? Nobody.

This logic is absurd. Where does it matter he was ranked 4 years ago? That is just silly.

Its about what he's done overall for his entire career....which puts him in lofty company in many many many different objective measures.

[PowerGlove]

He addressed this. Dirk was seriously under-rated at the time......its was just after losing to the Warriors....LOL

And who is saying Dirk is great than Kobe? Nobody.

This logic is absurd. Where does it matter he was ranked 4 years ago? That is just silly.

Its about what he's done overall for his entire career....which puts him in lofty company in many many many different objective measures.
:wtf: clearly i was referring to garnett

Kobe is still top ten after getting swept, no one changed their ranking of him drastically after his poor effort in the second round. Those are excuses. You are claiming that he's underrated after an MVP, 67 win season because he lost in the first round?

[DMAVS41]

Is the gap between seven and 1 huge?

As in Bird/Kobe/Duncan and mj?

Much bigger than the gap between 15 and 22.

Lets say someone has Elgin Baylor number 15 and Kevin Garnett number 22....which is what Bill Simmons had last time he came out with his rankings.

That is close. In fact, objectively you could make very good arguments for KG over Baylor....and to be honest, when it all said and done, nobody would argue too much about somebody ranking KG over Baylor.

Ranking Kobe or Duncan over MJ? LOL......thats totally different and the gap is much much much bigger.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

to be fair to Dirk, I think it is clear that he is now a top 30 player and can be compared to other PF greats like McHale.

[PowerGlove]

Much bigger than the gap between 15 and 22.

Lets say someone has Elgin Baylor number 15 and Kevin Garnett number 22....which is what Bill Simmons had last time he came out with his rankings.

That is close. In fact, objectively you could make very good arguments for KG over Baylor....and to be honest, when it all said and done, nobody would argue too much about somebody ranking KG over Baylor.

Ranking Kobe or Duncan over MJ? LOL......thats totally different and the gap is much much much bigger.

12 Seasons (plus final two years of only 11 total games), 8 Finals, 7 Top 5 MVP
10 All-NBA (10 First Teams), (Pre-All-Defensive Era), 11x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
27/14/4 Regular Season (846 Games), 27/13/4 Playoffs (134 Games)
12 Years Playoffs, 4 Years 50+ Wins

vs

16 Seasons, 1 Title, 2 Finals, 1 MVP, 5 Top 5 MVP
9 All-NBA (4 First Teams), 11 All-Defensive (9 First Teams), 14x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
20/11/4 Regular Season (1,195 Games), 20/11/4 Playoffs (105 Games)
11 Years Playoffs, 8 Years 50+ Wins, 2 Years 60+ Wins

vs

13 Seasons, 1 Title, 2 Finals, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP, 6 Top 7 MVP
11 All-NBA (4 First Teams), 10x All-Star
23/8/3 Regular Season (993 Games), 26/10/3 Playoffs (124 Games)
11 Years Playoffs, 11 Years 50+ Wins, 3 Years 60+ Wins

vs

8 Seasons, 2 Finals, 2 MVPs, 6 Top 5 MVP
7 All-NBA (5 First Teams), 3 All-Defensive First Teams, 7x All-Star, 2 All-Star MVPs
28/7/7 Regular Season (627 Games), 28/8/7 Playoffs (92 Games)
6 Years Playoffs, 5 Years 50+ Wins, 2 Years 60+ Wins

vs

16 Seasons (13 of 60+ Games), 1 Finals, 1 MVP, 8 Top 6 MVP
11 All-NBA (5 First Teams), 11x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
22/12/4 Regular Season (1,073 Games), 23/13/4 Playoffs (123 Games)
13 Years Playoffs, 7 Years 50+ Wins, 1 Year 60+ Wins

Dirk is ranked above three of these. Come on now.

[DMAVS41]

:wtf: clearly i was referring to garnett

Kobe is still top ten after getting swept, no one changed their ranking of him drastically after his poor effort in the second round. Those are excuses. You are claiming that he's underrated after an MVP, 67 win season because he lost in the first round?

Because his legacy is cemented as one of the all time greats.

Dirk had just lost in the finals and the lost to an 8 seed.

If you don't think those events impact where the "masses" would rank him I give up.

But again, why are we talking about where people on ISH ranked Dirk 4 years ago?

What does that have to do with Dirk's place in history.

You yourself have moved Dirk up hugely since then....close to 25 spots if you agreed with where he was in 07.

So I'm confused on why you think its laughable to move him up 30 spots when you yourself moved him up 25.....

[PowerGlove]

[/B]

Because his legacy is cemented as one of the all time greats.

Dirk had just lost in the finals and the lost to an 8 seed.

If you don't think those events impact where the "masses" would rank him I give up.

But again, why are we talking about where people on ISH ranked Dirk 4 years ago?

What does that have to do with Dirk's place in history.

You yourself have moved Dirk up hugely since then....close to 25 spots if you agreed with where he was in 07.

So I'm confused on why you think its laughable to move him up 30 spots when you yourself moved him up 25.....

Because I thought I was overrating him myself until I saw your rankings.

[DMAVS41]

12 Seasons (plus final two years of only 11 total games), 8 Finals, 7 Top 5 MVP
10 All-NBA (10 First Teams), (Pre-All-Defensive Era), 11x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
27/14/4 Regular Season (846 Games), 27/13/4 Playoffs (134 Games)
12 Years Playoffs, 4 Years 50+ Wins

vs

16 Seasons, 1 Title, 2 Finals, 1 MVP, 5 Top 5 MVP
9 All-NBA (4 First Teams), 11 All-Defensive (9 First Teams), 14x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
20/11/4 Regular Season (1,195 Games), 20/11/4 Playoffs (105 Games)
11 Years Playoffs, 8 Years 50+ Wins, 2 Years 60+ Wins

vs

13 Seasons, 1 Title, 2 Finals, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP, 6 Top 7 MVP
11 All-NBA (4 First Teams), 10x All-Star
23/8/3 Regular Season (993 Games), 26/10/3 Playoffs (124 Games)
11 Years Playoffs, 11 Years 50+ Wins, 3 Years 60+ Wins

vs

8 Seasons, 2 Finals, 2 MVPs, 6 Top 5 MVP
7 All-NBA (5 First Teams), 3 All-Defensive First Teams, 7x All-Star, 2 All-Star MVPs
28/7/7 Regular Season (627 Games), 28/8/7 Playoffs (92 Games)
6 Years Playoffs, 5 Years 50+ Wins, 2 Years 60+ Wins

vs

16 Seasons (13 of 60+ Games), 1 Finals, 1 MVP, 8 Top 6 MVP
11 All-NBA (5 First Teams), 11x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
22/12/4 Regular Season (1,073 Games), 23/13/4 Playoffs (123 Games)
13 Years Playoffs, 7 Years 50+ Wins, 1 Year 60+ Wins


Point please?

So lets get this straight.

You think the gap between MJ and Kobe/Duncan is the same size as it is between Baylor and KG....

Please answer.

[creepingdeath]

:facepalm

Do you read my posts?

Kobe was at 24. KG was at 38. Dirk was at 48.

Four years later after Kobe has won an MVP, two titles along with two finals mvps and after Garnett won a DPOY and a ring you are telling me that dirk is greater?????
Kobe didn't have a ring as the man.. which is exactly my point. Bryant certainly deserved to be ranked MUCH higher back then and so did KG, too. #24 for Kobe and #38 for KG were laughable. How do you explain their jump and their current ranking on ISH if not by their rings?

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The title won't matter as much as the career numbers. When Dirk passes 30k in points, and 10k in rebounds, that will add more to his legacy than getting another title.

But then again, the career totlas are coming, the second title will be icing on the cake.

(I find it hilarious how many posters are trying to "downplay" the ring. If you took a poll I garauntee you most of the posters downplaying the ring are the same ones who said Dirk could never lead/win a championship.)

[DMAVS41]

The title won't matter as much as the career numbers. When Dirk passes 30k in points, and 10k in rebounds, that will add more to his legacy than getting another title.

But then again, the career totlas are coming, the second title will be icing on the cake.

(I find it hilarious how many posters are trying to "downplay" the ring. If you took a poll I garauntee you most of the posters downplaying the ring are the same ones who said Dirk could never lead/win a championship.)

Exactly.

And the funny part about that is that Dirk now has led a team of role players without an elite 2nd option to a title. Something that is the rare or the rare in NBA history.

So not only did he win the title, he won the title in the utmost of improbable and impressive fashions.

[DMAVS41]

12 Seasons (plus final two years of only 11 total games), 8 Finals, 7 Top 5 MVP
10 All-NBA (10 First Teams), (Pre-All-Defensive Era), 11x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
27/14/4 Regular Season (846 Games), 27/13/4 Playoffs (134 Games)
12 Years Playoffs, 4 Years 50+ Wins

vs

16 Seasons, 1 Title, 2 Finals, 1 MVP, 5 Top 5 MVP
9 All-NBA (4 First Teams), 11 All-Defensive (9 First Teams), 14x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
20/11/4 Regular Season (1,195 Games), 20/11/4 Playoffs (105 Games)
11 Years Playoffs, 8 Years 50+ Wins, 2 Years 60+ Wins

vs

13 Seasons, 1 Title, 2 Finals, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP, 6 Top 7 MVP
11 All-NBA (4 First Teams), 10x All-Star
23/8/3 Regular Season (993 Games), 26/10/3 Playoffs (124 Games)
11 Years Playoffs, 11 Years 50+ Wins, 3 Years 60+ Wins

vs

8 Seasons, 2 Finals, 2 MVPs, 6 Top 5 MVP
7 All-NBA (5 First Teams), 3 All-Defensive First Teams, 7x All-Star, 2 All-Star MVPs
28/7/7 Regular Season (627 Games), 28/8/7 Playoffs (92 Games)
6 Years Playoffs, 5 Years 50+ Wins, 2 Years 60+ Wins

vs

16 Seasons (13 of 60+ Games), 1 Finals, 1 MVP, 8 Top 6 MVP
11 All-NBA (5 First Teams), 11x All-Star, 1 All-Star MVP
22/12/4 Regular Season (1,073 Games), 23/13/4 Playoffs (123 Games)
13 Years Playoffs, 7 Years 50+ Wins, 1 Year 60+ Wins

Dirk is ranked above three of these. Come on now.


Well, one of those is Dirk.....LOL

One of those is Lebron. Lebron has no argument over Dirk at this point.....especially considering what just happened in the biggest series they have both ever played.

One of those is Baylor....and again, those numbers need to be put into context. I guess that is something you are unwilling to do.

I'm sorry, but do you realize how insane it is to go on like you did about Baylor putting up 27/13/4????? And even with just the numbers and no context, Dirk's 26/10/3 on much better efficiency is absolutely comparable.


Why wouldn't Dirk be ranked even with or above some of those guys?

[tpols]

And the funny part about that is that Dirk now has led a team of role players without an elite 2nd option to a title. Something that is the rare or the rare in NBA history.

It is such a joke to act like Dirk carried a team of role players to a championship. Not even close.:oldlol:

Dirk shot 41% in the NBA finals, and his second option shot 49%.. The Mavs also won because of their efforts on the defensive side of the floor, where Dirk was one of their least impactful defensive players[Chandler was the anchor in the paint, and marion/Kidd/Stephenson were the ones playing great D on the perimeter]. And somehow this team of role players was carried by Dirk?:roll:

His offense was mediocre. Check.

His defense was mediocre. Check.

His clutch play was GREAT. Check.

I wonder what could be blinding some people right now.

Basically, since a bunch of 'role players' overachieved and played like champions, and it led to the Mavericks winning, Dirk is getting all of the credit for the championship, when his impact was no greater than many of the other superstars to win rings in the past. This would be like if Mo Williams, and Antwan Jamison stepped up huge in the playoffs last year and actually gave Lebron a lot of help, and Cleveland ended up winning the championship.. Lebron's play/impact didn't change at all.. his teammates just exceeded expectations and played how any great supporting cast should play, but because of the 'names' and unorthodox build of the team, the lone superstar gets all of the credit.

[DMAVS41]

It is such a joke to act like Dirk carried a team of role players to a championship. Not even close.:oldlol:

Dirk shot 41% in the NBA finals, and his second option shot 49%.. The Mavs also won because of their efforts on the defensive side of the floor, where Dirk was one of their least impactful defensive players[Chandler was the anchor in the paint, and marion/Kidd/Stephenson were the ones playing great D on the perimeter]. And somehow this team of role players was carried by Dirk?:roll:

His offense was mediocre. Check.

His defense was mediocre. Check.

His clutch play was GREAT. Check.

I wonder what could be blinding some people right now.

Basically, since a bunch of 'role players' overachieved and played like champions, and it led to the Mavericks winning, Dirk is getting all of the credit for the championship, when his impact was no greater than many of the other superstars to win rings in the past. This would be like if Mo Williams, and Antwan Jamison stepped up huge in the playoffs last year and actually gave Lebron a lot of help, and Cleveland ended up winning the championship.. Lebron's play/impact didn't change at all.. his teammates just exceeded expectations and played how any great supporting cast should play, but because of the 'names' and unorthodox build of the team, the lone superstar gets all of the credit.

What?

His team did not play like most championship teams. Hell, just look at the last few years and what its taken.

Dirk was better than ok...28/8/3 overall on some of the best efficiency numbers of all time. 61% TS.....including the best free throw shooting of all time for a playoff run

Along with some of the most clutch play we've we have ever seen.

Definitely one of the most impressive and most improbable titles by a superstar player since 1980.

Just the truth.

But please don't ruin this thread creating an argument over something that has been hashed out before. Its not just me calling this team a bunch of role players....which is what they are.

ROLE PLAYERS. NO OTHER ELITE PLAYER.

That rarely happens in NBA history.

And when it does, the best player deserves the most credit. Funny how nobody blamed Terry and Howard for choking hugely in 06.......can't have it both ways


AND STOP MAKING POSTS WITH FALSE INFORMATION. DIRK SHOT 42% IN THE FINALS. YOU ROUND UP NOT DOWN YOU ****ING AGENDA DRIVEN MORON. CAN YOU EVER JUST MAKE A POST WITH ACCURATE INFORMATION?

DIRK SHOT 41.6% IN THE FINALS. EITHER STOP MAKING SHIT UP OR LEARN SIMPLE MATH.

[BEAST Griffin]

It is such a joke to act like Dirk carried a team of role players to a championship. Not even close.:oldlol:

Dirk shot 41% in the NBA finals, and his second option shot 49%.. The Mavs also won because of their efforts on the defensive side of the floor, where Dirk was one of their least impactful defensive players[Chandler was the anchor in the paint, and marion/Kidd/Stephenson were the ones playing great D on the perimeter]. And somehow this team of role players was carried by Dirk?:roll:

His offense was mediocre. Check.

His defense was mediocre. Check.

His clutch play was GREAT. Check.

I wonder what could be blinding some people right now.

Basically, since a bunch of 'role players' overachieved and played like champions, and it led to the Mavericks winning, Dirk is getting all of the credit for the championship, when his impact was no greater than many of the other superstars to win rings in the past. This would be like if Mo Williams, and Antwan Jamison stepped up huge in the playoffs last year and actually gave Lebron a lot of help, and Cleveland ended up winning the championship.. Lebron's play/impact didn't change at all.. his teammates just exceeded expectations and played how any great supporting cast should play, but because of the 'names' and unorthodox build of the team, the lone superstar gets all of the credit.

To be fair, Dirk's fever game did drag down his finals FG%. Other than that, he only had one really bad shooting game (game 6), and he came up big in every game in the clutch, even in his fever game.

[tpols]

Dirk was better than ok...28/8/3 overall on some of the best efficiency numbers of all time. 61% TS.....

28/8/3 on 61% is a very good statline.. but we have seen a statline like this from Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG.. all of the greats that have won rings in this decade alone. Maybe Kobe scored more points on less efficiency but had way more assists, and played better defense while still being just as clutch[check his 4th Q '02 numbers], or Garnett averaged slightly less points and wasn't as clutch, but was a much better rebounder and defender[in some of his peak seasons compared to Dirk's run this year], or Shaq scored more points, on better efficiency, was a better rebounder, and a better defender, but not as clutch. etc.

All of these guys have won rings while leaving an impact or footprint on the playoff run that was just as great as Dirk's individually. The only difference between some of their cases was that they already had supporting casts in place that were EXPECTED to win because they were very good and Dirk's supporting cast was NOT expected to win because they, based on past observations, were not as good.. but that's the thing. Dirk's supporting cast PLAYED as good as those supporting casts despite not being predicted to.. They overachieved. That makes the run for this Maverick TEAM improbable. You're solely crediting Dirk.. which is why most people here aren't agreeing with anything you're saying[ie check the first few pages of your second option thread. It gets discredited by some reputable posters as being illogical and agenda driven].

I mean, who would have expected this Dallas team to win the Finals against the Heat with Dirk shooting 41.5% or whatever he shot? I thought he was carrying the team? Surely they wouldn't win in 6 games against an extremely stacked team if the guy who supposedly was their whole team was shooting so poorly right? Jesus Christ, Dirk was 4/19 going into the 4th quarter of their closeout game and the Mavs were up by 9.. How is this explained?

The Mavs won their two most important and improbable series because their chemistry, composure, explosive 3 point shooting, bench scoring, and defense were all better than the opposing teams.. And many of these elements included Dirk's teammates[specifically the hot 3 pt shooting and defense that chandler/marion/kidd and stephenson/terry/peja respectively were responsible for] moreso than they included Dirk himself.

[DMAVS41]

It is such a joke to act like Dirk carried a team of role players to a championship. Not even close.:oldlol:

Dirk shot 41% in the NBA finals, and his second option shot 49%.. The Mavs also won because of their efforts on the defensive side of the floor, where Dirk was one of their least impactful defensive players[Chandler was the anchor in the paint, and marion/Kidd/Stephenson were the ones playing great D on the perimeter]. And somehow this team of role players was carried by Dirk?:roll:

His offense was mediocre. Check.

His defense was mediocre. Check.

His clutch play was GREAT. Check.

I wonder what could be blinding some people right now.

Basically, since a bunch of 'role players' overachieved and played like champions, and it led to the Mavericks winning, Dirk is getting all of the credit for the championship, when his impact was no greater than many of the other superstars to win rings in the past. This would be like if Mo Williams, and Antwan Jamison stepped up huge in the playoffs last year and actually gave Lebron a lot of help, and Cleveland ended up winning the championship.. Lebron's play/impact didn't change at all.. his teammates just exceeded expectations and played how any great supporting cast should play, but because of the 'names' and unorthodox build of the team, the lone superstar gets all of the credit.


.

Mo put up 14/3/5
Jamison put up 15/7
Shaq put up 12/6

And then you had a bunch of solid role players like parker/west/andy/z/hickson/moon

The teams are actually very comparable.

I think Dirk had more help, but not a ton more.

And guess what? The Mavs had a ton more success. They won the damn thing while Lebron got bounced in the 2nd round.

You have a clear agenda.

Just days before the finals you were saying this would be one of the best title runs of all time for Dirk.

I find the 180 funny....especially considering Dirk got no help whatsoever for the three first games. Then Dirk plays poorly in game 4, plays very good in game 5, and then plays a bad first half in game 6 and a very good 2nd half

So those three games change your tune that much about an entire playoff run? One of the 3 games Dirk was awesome.....and in the other two he was super clutch.....

LOL at the obvious agenda. Give it a rest tpols.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Top 20 is about right

[DMAVS41]

28/8/3 on 61% is a very good statline.. but we have seen a statline like this from Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG.. all of the greats that have won rings in this decade alone. Maybe Kobe scored more points on less efficiency but had way more assists, and played better defense while still being just as clutch[check his 4th Q '02 numbers], or Garnett averaged slightly less points and wasn't as clutch, but was a much better rebounder and defender[in some of his peak seasons compared to Dirk's run this year], or Shaq scored more points, on better efficiency, was a better rebounder, and a better defender, but not as clutch. etc.

All of these guys have won rings while leaving an impact or footprint on the playoff run that was just as great as Dirk's individually. The only difference between some of their cases was that they already had supporting casts in place that were EXPECTED to win because they were very good and Dirk's supporting cast was NOT expected to win because they, based on past observations, were not as good.. but that's the thing. Dirk's supporting cast PLAYED as good as those supporting casts despite not being predicted to.. They overachieved. That makes the run for this Maverick TEAM improbable. You're solely crediting Dirk.. which is why most people here aren't agreeing with anything you're saying[ie check the first few pages of your second option thread. It gets discredited by some reputable posters as being illogical and agenda driven].

I mean, who would have expected this Dallas team to win the Finals against the Heat with Dirk shooting 41.5% or whatever he shot? I thought he was carrying the team? Surely they wouldn't win in 6 games against an extremely stacked team if the guy who supposedly was their whole team was shooting so poorly right? Jesus Christ, Dirk was 4/19 going into the 4th quarter of their closeout game and the Mavs were up by 9.. How is this explained?

The Mavs won their two most important and improbable series because their chemistry, composure, explosive 3 point shooting, bench scoring, and defense were all better than the opposing teams.. And many of these elements included Dirk's teammates[specifically the hot 3 pt shooting and defense that chandler/marion/kidd and stephenson/terry/peja respectively were responsible for] moreso than they included Dirk himself.

No, the Mavs beat the Lakers mainly because Dirk was amazing. The game 4 blowout skews the numbers completely.

Game 1....Dirk had 28 and 14 on 50% shooting and out dueled Kobe in crunch time

Game 2....Dirk had 24 and 7 on 56% shooting

Game 3....Dirk had 32 and 9 on 63% shooting

Game 4....The Lakers/Kobe laid down as usual with their backs against the wall

Give me a ****ing break man. It was Dirk that opened everything up.
Deal with it.


So again, your standard for Dirk is perfection. Heaven forbid he get any help at all.

Pathetic man....really pathetic.

And I want to know why you flipped so much?????? Dirk got no help at all in the first three games. None.

Then he plays sick in game 4 and still managed to make all the big plays late.
He played awesome in game 5.
Then played a horrible first half in game 6....but answered with an awesome 2nd half and once again made all the clutch plays.

How on earth could those three games change your tune that much? LOL

[Chalkmaze]

I'm biased, but no way do I think Dirk is better than Malone was. Dirk was better at outside shooting and freethrows for sure, but his overall game wasn't as good. Karl was much more aggressive and dominant in their one on one match ups until age caught up to him a bit. Dirk played on high offense, low-defense team Dallas teams, while Malone mostly played on defense priority, half-court offense teams. These stats are just for comparison sake, make of them what you will.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6241/dirkvskarl.png

[BEAST Griffin]

No, the Mavs beat the Lakers mainly because Dirk was amazing. The game 4 blowout skews the numbers completely.

Game 1....Dirk had 28 and 14 on 50% shooting and out dueled Kobe in crunch time

Game 2....Dirk had 24 and 7 on 56% shooting

Game 3....Dirk had 32 and 9 on 63% shooting

Game 4....The Lakers/Kobe laid down as usual with their backs against the wall

Give me a ****ing break man. It was Dirk that opened everything up.
Deal with it.


So again, your standard for Dirk is perfection. Heaven forbid he get any help at all.

Pathetic man....really pathetic.

And I want to know why you flipped so much?????? Dirk got no help at all in the first three games. None.

Then he plays sick in game 4 and still managed to make all the big plays late.
He played awesome in game 5.
Then played a horrible first half in game 6....but answered with an awesome 2nd half and once again made all the clutch plays.

How on earth could those three games change your tune that much? LOL

/thread

[DMAVS41]

I'm biased, but no way do I think Dirk is better than Malone was. Dirk was better at outside shooting and freethrows for sure, but his overall game wasn't as good. Karl was much more aggressive and dominant in their one on one match ups until age caught up to him a bit. Dirk played on high offense, low-defense team Dallas teams, while Malone mostly played on defense priority, half-court offense teams. These stats are just for comparison sake, make of them what you will.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6241/dirkvskarl.png


LOL at people posting regular season numbers for all time greats.

Its about the playoffs........

I could understand if Dirk and his teams had struggled in the regular season or something, but Dirk's regular season play/success is some of the best ever.

[catch24]

No, the Mavs beat the Lakers mainly because Dirk was amazing. The game 4 blowout skews the numbers completely.

Of course they won mainly because of Dirk. He's the Catalyst of the team. But he had help and that help was GREAT against the Lakers

Game 1:

Chandler - 11/9/3 on 62% shooting
Terry - 15/3/4 on 60% shooting
Peja - 10pts on 67% shooting (from 3)
Kidd - 7/11/5 on 50% shooting

Game 2:

Marion - 14/9 on 50% shooting
Stevenson - 9pts (all from 3 on 50% shooting)
Barea - 12/4 on 44% shooting

Dirk was amazing this game though. If he carried Dallas any time in the series, it was this game.

Game 3:

Terry - 23pts on 70% shooting
Peja - 15pts on 43% shooting from 3 (3/7 from 3PT)
Kidd - 11/9/4 on 25% shooting (had some nice passes in the 4th though)

And then there was Game 4. What really killed the Lakers was guard play - specifically penetration to the basket/kicking out to Mavs perimeter shooters.

Simply put... Kobe and the Lakers lost to the better player and team.





Game 4....The Lakers/Kobe laid down as usual with their backs against the wall

What? They were down 3-2 just last year to Boston, with their backs against the wall, and ended up winning the title.

[DMAVS41]

Of course they won mainly because of Dirk. He's the Catalyst of the team. But he had help and that help was GREAT against the Lakers

Game 1:

Chandler - 11/9/3 on 62% shooting
Terry - 15/3/4 on 60% shooting
Peja - 10pts on 67% shooting (from 3)
Kidd - 7/11/5 on 50% shooting

Game 2:

Marion - 14/9 on 50% shooting
Stevenson - 9pts (all from 3 on 50% shooting)
Barea - 12/4 on 44% shooting

Dirk was amazing this game though. If he carried Dallas any time in the series, it was this game.

Game 3:

Terry - 23pts on 70% shooting
Peja - 15pts on 43% shooting from 3 (3/7 from 3PT)
Kidd - 11/9/4 on 25% shooting (had some nice passes in the 4th though)

And then there was Game 4. What really killed the Lakers was guard play - specifically penetration to the basket/kicking out to Mavs perimeter shooters.

Simply put... Kobe and the Lakers lost to the better player and team.






What? They were down 3-2 just last year to Boston, with their backs against the wall, and ended up winning the title.

That is just normal help man.

Look at the Lakers:

Game 1:

Gasol had 15/11/7
Odom had 15/12/2

And of course those numbers are skewed because Kobe took 29 shots....of course the production of his teammates will be less if he's going to dominate the ball like that

Game 2:

Bynum had 18/13 on 73% shooting.....wow
Gasol had 13/10
Artest had 11/6

Game 3:

Odom had 18/6
Gasol had 12/8
Bynum had 21/10


The difference in that series was not the role players. It was the stars. Dirk was great and super clutch. Kobe was average and not clutch. That was the difference. Not to mention that is was partly Kobe's horrific perimeter defense that led to the Mavs making so many shots. He was a total non factor in an area the Lakers got torched.


To the bold:

That was impressive in 2010....usually Kobe comes up very small on the verge of elimination. His teams have a history of being blown out in games like that. 03, 06, 08, and now 11 he's been blown out in shocking fashion. He's one of the worst elimination game players of the last 20 years.

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/the-elite-in-elimination-games-since-1991/

[GOBB]

2 titles he could be in my top 20 of all time. Also move him closer to top 5 PFs of all time since he is on the outside lookin in.

[Balla_Status]

What I've noticed is that the morons here hating on Dirk say Dirk was carried during the entire playoffs and use TWO GAMES (game 4 against the Lakers and game 6 against the Heat) as evidence of this.

Ridiculous.
Dirk is top 20 and is better than KG. And Dirk's ring is more impressive than any of Kobe's rings because he is SUPPOSED to win with the supporting cast he had. Big deal.

[DMAVS41]

What I've noticed is that the morons here hating on Dirk say Dirk was carried during the entire playoffs and use TWO GAMES (game 4 against the Lakers and game 6 against the Heat) as evidence of this.

Ridiculous.
Dirk is top 20 and is better than KG. And Dirk's ring is more impressive than any of Kobe's rings because he is SUPPOSED to win with the supporting cast he had. Big deal.

Yep, and honestly:

Game 4 should not really count for much. The series was over. Kobe had definitely given up....and has a history of that:

03 blown out by 28
06 blown out by 31
08 blown out by 39
11 blown out by 36

And again, Kobe is arguably the worst elimination game player of the last 20 years. Game 4 was a joke. The Lakers quit....plain and simple.


I have no problem with anyone saying that Dirk got carried in game 4 and 6 of the finals though. Just the truth. His team around him did enough to give Dirk a chance to make big plays late.....which of course he did.

[tpols]

What I've noticed is that the morons here hating on Dirk say Dirk was carried during the entire playoffs and use TWO GAMES (game 4 against the Lakers and game 6 against the Heat) as evidence of this.

Ridiculous.
Dirk is top 20 and is better than KG. And Dirk's ring is more impressive than any of Kobe's rings because he is SUPPOSED to win with the supporting cast he had. Big deal.
You can add Game 4 of the NBA finals to that list as well.. 6/19 and his team still won.

But no one is saying Dirk was being carried for his whole playoff run.. just that his team stepped up and played as great as any other supporting cast has in the past decade. Just a fact. They exceeded expectations and ended up playing very well and gave Dirk just as much help as Duncan got when he won, or Kobe got when he won[as the clear cut first option] or Shaq got when he won, etc.

[miles berg]

Please, Dirk got nowhere the help that Kobe got or Shaq got. I buy the argument that he got as much/a little more help than Duncan, it was really close. Hakeems 1st title he got basically no help, that is still the GOAT playoff run of any superstar that I have ever seen. Hakeems 2nd best player was Otis Thorpe.

[DMAVS41]

You can add Game 4 of the NBA finals to that list as well.. 6/19 and his team still won.

But no one is saying Dirk was being carried for his whole playoff run.. just that his team stepped up and played as great as any other supporting cast has in the past decade. Just a fact. They exceeded expectations and ended up playing very well and gave Dirk just as much help as Duncan got when he won, or Kobe got when he won[as the clear cut first option] or Shaq got when he won, etc.

No, Kobe had had much better help for all 5 of his titles. Not close.

Duncan for sure.

Shaq in 00 for sure.

Kobe? No ****ing way.

[oldschool4ever]

Actually when you adjust Elgin's numbers for pace Dirk's are better.

Lets look at the playoffs:

Baylor 27/13/4 44% fg 77% ft
Dirk 26/10/3 47% fg 38% 3 89% ft

It was harder to shoot back in Elgin's day so the efficiency stuff shouldn't be weighed too heavily.

Even without adjusting they are very similar. When you adjust though, Dirk's become better. This is where PER is handy. It adjusts for all the proper things to make an across era comparison at least decent.

Both played exactly 41 minutes per game in the playoffs......so its a perfect match as far as per minute production....which can often be the biggest thing wrong with PER.

Anyway:

Baylor 21.8 PER
Dirk 24.7 PER

Elgin's numbers don't really make for a good argument as to why he's better.


this.

[oldschool4ever]

Kobe didn't have a ring as the man.. which is exactly my point. Bryant certainly deserved to be ranked MUCH higher back then and so did KG, too. #24 for Kobe and #38 for KG were laughable. How do you explain their jump and their current ranking on ISH if not by their rings?


i hope this can be used for lebron when wade wins him a ring.

[SCdac]

You can add Game 4 of the NBA finals to that list as well.. 6/19 and his team still won.

But no one is saying Dirk was being carried for his whole playoff run.. just that his team stepped up and played as great as any other supporting cast has in the past decade. Just a fact. They exceeded expectations and ended up playing very well and gave Dirk just as much help as Duncan got when he won, or Kobe got when he won[as the clear cut first option] or Shaq got when he won, etc.

Yeah, he did get just as much help IMO, if not much more when you consider all aspects of the game (defense, playmaking, veteran leadership, etc). Dirk scored 28% of this teams total points, while Duncan scored 26% of the Spurs 2003 points. Hardly a huge difference, when you consider Dirk wasn't leading the team in many other areas like Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq/ etc were. Dirk averaged a meager 5% of the teams offensive boards, 12% of the teams assists, and 15% of the teams total blocks. None of those marks are especially high (compared to Duncan in 03 or Hakeem in 94, which he's being compared to on ISH)...

The Mavs built the perfect team around Dirk, and it took like 12 years to do it. Now, Dirk-Homers are mad because he actually had enough help to win it all - and they actually did help. You hear about how tough his competition was, yet his teammates hardly get any of the credit in toppling said competition. J Kidd lead the team assists and steals, Chandler lead the team in boards and blocks, and Terry/Kidd lead the team in three's made. He had sufficient help.

[Carbine]

Dirk with two titles as the man is a top 15 player ever....no questions, ifs, ands or buts about it.

[oldschool4ever]

Exactly.

And the funny part about that is that Dirk now has led a team of role players without an elite 2nd option to a title. Something that is the rare or the rare in NBA history.

So not only did he win the title, he won the title in the utmost of improbable and impressive fashions.

yeah, they don't have an elite 2nd option. but they had jason terry who was the closer of the team. miami would love to switch the JET for lebron in the finals.

[oldschool4ever]

Yeah, he did get just as much help IMO, if not much more when you consider all aspects of the game (defense, playmaking, veteran leadership, etc). Dirk scored 28% of this teams total points, while Duncan scored 26% of the Spurs 2003 points. Hardly a huge difference, when you consider Dirk wasn't leading the team in many other areas like Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq/ etc were. Dirk averaged a meager 5% of the teams offensive boards, 12% of the teams assists, and 15% of the teams total blocks. None of those marks are especially high (compared to Duncan in 03 or Hakeem in 94, which he's being compared to on ISH)...

The Mavs built the perfect team around Dirk, and it took like 12 years to do it. Now, Dirk-Homers are mad because he actually had enough help to win it all - and they actually did help. You hear about how tough his competition was, yet his teammates hardly get any of the credit in toppling said competition. J Kidd lead the team assists and steals, Chandler lead the team in boards and blocks, and Terry/Kidd lead the team in three's made. He had sufficient help.

this. if we only talk about offense, then why doesn't nash have any rings?

[Balla_Status]

You can add Game 4 of the NBA finals to that list as well.. 6/19 and his team still won.

But no one is saying Dirk was being carried for his whole playoff run.. just that his team stepped up and played as great as any other supporting cast has in the past decade. Just a fact. They exceeded expectations and ended up playing very well and gave Dirk just as much help as Duncan got when he won, or Kobe got when he won[as the clear cut first option] or Shaq got when he won, etc.

Oh yeah...the game where he had a fever and STILL hit clutch shots?

Yeah...ok.

[catch24]

[/B]

That is just normal help man.

Look at the Lakers:

Game 1:

Gasol had 15/11/7
Odom had 15/12/2

And of course those numbers are skewed because Kobe took 29 shots....of course the production of his teammates will be less if he's going to dominate the ball like that

Game 2:

Bynum had 18/13 on 73% shooting.....wow
Gasol had 13/10
Artest had 11/6

Game 3:

Odom had 18/6
Gasol had 12/8
Bynum had 21/10


The difference in that series was not the role players. It was the stars. Dirk was great and super clutch. Kobe was average and not clutch. That was the difference.


To the bold:

That was impressive in 2010....usually Kobe comes up very small on the verge of elimination. He's one of the worst elimination game players of the last 20 years.

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/the-elite-in-elimination-games-since-1991/

All I'm saying is you can't discount what the Mavs brought to the table against LA. Sure Dirk lead the Mavs, but to say he "carried them"? We must have watched two different series. Agree to disagree there.

And you can't leave out Odom and especially Gasol's shooting percentages. Pau was the definition of a ghost that series. Casper personified :oldlol:

How many times has Kobe played in elimination games (assuming the criteria is with the Lakers down, or tied, on the verge of being eliminated)?

Here's my list (as you know the first 3 years are somewhat skewed because of his MP):
5-12-97 - 11pts on 29% shooting
5-24-98 - 6pts on 100% shooting
5-23-99 - 16/8/3 on 44% shooting
6-04-00 - 25/11/7/4 on 47% shooting
5-15-03 - 20/6 on 47% shooting
6-15-04 - 24pts on 33% shooting (arguably his worst played elim-game)
5-06-06 - 24pts on 50% shooting
5-02-07 - 33pts on 33% shooting
6-17-08 - 22pts on 32% shooting
5-17-09 - 14/7/5/3/2 on 33% shooting
6-17-10 - 24/15 on on 25% shooting
5-08-11 - 17pts on 39% shooting

12 games - I'd say about five of those were pretty bad while the other seven were respectable (did other things besides shoot/score). Meanwhile, LeBron and Wade have only been in six elimination games (just for the sake of comparison - these 3 are always examined in contrast), and all have been pretty mediocre themselves (i.e. LeBron in '07, '09, '10 and Wade in '05, '07, '09).

What about Kobe in close-out games?

4-30-98 - 22/4/3 on 56% shooting
5-12-98 - 7pts on 50% shooting
5-13-99 (best of 3 format) - 13/5/9/2/4 on 44% shooting
5-15-99 - 24/6/8/3/2 on 36% shooting
5-02-00 (best of 3 format) - 32/6/4/2 on 43% shooting
5-05-00 - 17/6 on 44% shooting
5-14-00 - 23/5/2 on 50% shooting
5-16-00 - 17pts on 37% shooting
5-30-00 - 17/5/4 on 31% shooting
6-02-00 - 33/6/4/3 on 50% shooting
6-04-00 - 25/11/7/4 on 47% shooting
6-16-00 - 8pts on 20% shooting (probably the worst close out game of his career)
6-19-00 - 26/10/4/2 on 30% shooting

4-29-01 - 22/9/4/2 on 39% shooting
5-13-01 - 48/16/3 on 52% shooting
5-27-01 - 24/11 on 53% shooting
6-15-01 - 26/12/6 on 39% shooting
4-28-02 - 25/4/7/2 on 47% shooting
5-14-02 - 26/8/5 on 50% shooting
6-02-02 - 30/10/7/2 on 39% shooting
6-12-02 - 25/6/8/2 on 44% shooting
5-01-03 - 31/8 on 54% shooting
4-28-04 - 31/10/6/3 on 57% shooting
5-15-04 - 26/7/7 on 50% shooting

5-02-06 - 29/7/5 on 59% shooting (yup, that's how bad this Lakers team was)
5-04-06 - 50/8/5/3 on 57% shooting (oh yeah, that bad)
5-06-06 - 24pts on 50% shooting
4-28-08 - 31/7/6/3/2 on 50% shooting
5-16-08 - 34/8/6 on 47% shooting
5-29-08 - 39pts on 53% shooting
4-27-09 - 31/4/4 on 47% shooting
5-14-09 - 32pts on 41% shooting
5-17-09 - 14/7/5/3/2 on 33% shooting
5-29-09 - 35/6/10 on 60% shooting
6-14-09 - 30/6/5/4 on 43% shooting
4-30-10 - 32/7/3 on 48% shooting
5-10-10 - 32pts on 48% shooting
5-29-10 - 37/6 on 48% shooting
6-17-10 - 23/15 on 25% shooting
4-28-11 - 24pts on 37% shooting

Not too shabby for a "choke artist", don't you think?

[oldschool4ever]

All I'm saying is you can't discount what the Mavs brought to the table against LA. Sure Dirk lead the Mavs, but to say he "carried them"? We must have watched two different series. Agree to disagree there.

And you can't leave out Odom and especially Gasol's shooting percentages. Pau was the definition of a ghost that series. Casper personified :oldlol:

How many times has Kobe played in elimination games (assuming the criteria is with the Lakers down, or tied, on the verge of being eliminated)?

Here's my list (as you know the first 3 years are somewhat skewed because of his MP):
5-12-97 - 11pts on 29% shooting
5-24-98 - 6pts on 100% shooting
5-23-99 - 16/8/3 on 44% shooting
6-04-00 - 25/11/7/4 on 47% shooting
5-15-03 - 20/6 on 47% shooting
6-15-04 - 24pts on 33% shooting (arguably his worst played elim-game)
5-06-06 - 24pts on 50% shooting
5-02-07 - 33pts on 33% shooting
6-17-08 - 22pts on 32% shooting
5-17-09 - 14/7/5/3/2 on 33% shooting
6-17-10 - 24/15 on on 25% shooting
5-08-11 - 17pts on 39% shooting

12 games - I'd say about five of those were pretty bad while the other seven were respectable (did other things besides shoot/score). Meanwhile, LeBron and Wade have only been in six elimination games (just for the sake of comparison - these 3 are always examined in contrast), and all have been pretty mediocre themselves (i.e. LeBron in '07, '09, '10 and Wade in '05, '07, '09).

What about Kobe in close-out games?

4-30-98 - 22/4/3 on 56% shooting
5-12-98 - 7pts on 50% shooting
5-13-99 (best of 3 format) - 13/5/9/2/4 on 44% shooting
5-15-99 - 24/6/8/3/2 on 36% shooting
5-02-00 (best of 3 format) - 32/6/4/2 on 43% shooting
5-05-00 - 17/6 on 44% shooting
5-14-00 - 23/5/2 on 50% shooting
5-16-00 - 17pts on 37% shooting
5-30-00 - 17/5/4 on 31% shooting
6-02-00 - 33/6/4/3 on 50% shooting
6-04-00 - 25/11/7/4 on 47% shooting
6-16-00 - 8pts on 20% shooting (probably the worst close out game of his career)
6-19-00 - 26/10/4/2 on 30% shooting

4-29-01 - 22/9/4/2 on 39% shooting
5-13-01 - 48/16/3 on 52% shooting
5-27-01 - 24/11 on 53% shooting
6-15-01 - 26/12/6 on 39% shooting
4-28-02 - 25/4/7/2 on 47% shooting
5-14-02 - 26/8/5 on 50% shooting
6-02-02 - 30/10/7/2 on 39% shooting
6-12-02 - 25/6/8/2 on 44% shooting
5-01-03 - 31/8 on 54% shooting
4-28-04 - 31/10/6/3 on 57% shooting
5-15-04 - 26/7/7 on 50% shooting

5-02-06 - 29/7/5 on 59% shooting (yup, that's how bad this Lakers team was)
5-04-06 - 50/8/5/3 on 57% shooting (oh yeah, that bad)
5-06-06 - 24pts on 50% shooting
4-28-08 - 31/7/6/3/2 on 50% shooting
5-16-08 - 34/8/6 on 47% shooting
5-29-08 - 39pts on 53% shooting
4-27-09 - 31/4/4 on 47% shooting
5-14-09 - 32pts on 41% shooting
5-17-09 - 14/7/5/3/2 on 33% shooting
5-29-09 - 35/6/10 on 60% shooting
6-14-09 - 30/6/5/4 on 43% shooting
4-30-10 - 32/7/3 on 48% shooting
5-10-10 - 32pts on 48% shooting
5-29-10 - 37/6 on 48% shooting
6-17-10 - 23/15 on 25% shooting
4-28-11 - 24pts on 37% shooting

Not too shabby for a "choke artist", don't you think?

this. dmavs selectively picks and chooses only the games he likes.

[DMAVS41]

All I'm saying is you can't discount what the Mavs brought to the table against LA. Sure Dirk lead the Mavs, but to say he "carried them"? We must have watched two different series. Agree to disagree there.

And you can't leave out Odom and especially Gasol's shooting percentages. Pau was the definition of a ghost that series. Casper personified :oldlol:

How many times has Kobe played in elimination games (assuming the criteria is with the Lakers down, or tied, on the verge of being eliminated)?

Here's my list (as you know the first 3 years are somewhat skewed because of his MP):
5-12-97 - 11pts on 29% shooting
5-24-98 - 6pts on 100% shooting
5-23-99 - 16/8/3 on 44% shooting
6-04-00 - 25/11/7/4 on 47% shooting
5-15-03 - 20/6 on 47% shooting
6-15-04 - 24pts on 33% shooting (arguably his worst played elim-game)
5-06-06 - 24pts on 50% shooting
5-02-07 - 33pts on 33% shooting
6-17-08 - 22pts on 32% shooting
5-17-09 - 14/7/5/3/2 on 33% shooting
6-17-10 - 24/15 on on 25% shooting
5-08-11 - 17pts on 39% shooting

12 games - I'd say about five of those were pretty bad while the other seven were respectable (did other things besides shoot/score). Meanwhile, LeBron and Wade have only been in six elimination games (just for the sake of comparison - these 3 are always examined in contrast), and all have been pretty mediocre themselves (i.e. LeBron in '07, '09, '10 and Wade in '05, '07, '09).

What about Kobe in close-out games?

4-30-98 - 22/4/3 on 56% shooting
5-12-98 - 7pts on 50% shooting
5-13-99 (best of 3 format) - 13/5/9/2/4 on 44% shooting
5-15-99 - 24/6/8/3/2 on 36% shooting
5-02-00 (best of 3 format) - 32/6/4/2 on 43% shooting
5-05-00 - 17/6 on 44% shooting
5-14-00 - 23/5/2 on 50% shooting
5-16-00 - 17pts on 37% shooting
5-30-00 - 17/5/4 on 31% shooting
6-02-00 - 33/6/4/3 on 50% shooting
6-04-00 - 25/11/7/4 on 47% shooting
6-16-00 - 8pts on 20% shooting (probably the worst close out game of his career)
6-19-00 - 26/10/4/2 on 30% shooting

4-29-01 - 22/9/4/2 on 39% shooting
5-13-01 - 48/16/3 on 52% shooting
5-27-01 - 24/11 on 53% shooting
6-15-01 - 26/12/6 on 39% shooting
4-28-02 - 25/4/7/2 on 47% shooting
5-14-02 - 26/8/5 on 50% shooting
6-02-02 - 30/10/7/2 on 39% shooting
6-12-02 - 25/6/8/2 on 44% shooting
5-01-03 - 31/8 on 54% shooting
4-28-04 - 31/10/6/3 on 57% shooting
5-15-04 - 26/7/7 on 50% shooting

5-02-06 - 29/7/5 on 59% shooting (yup, that's how bad this Lakers team was)
5-04-06 - 50/8/5/3 on 57% shooting (oh yeah, that bad)
5-06-06 - 24pts on 50% shooting
4-28-08 - 31/7/6/3/2 on 50% shooting
5-16-08 - 34/8/6 on 47% shooting
5-29-08 - 39pts on 53% shooting
4-27-09 - 31/4/4 on 47% shooting
5-14-09 - 32pts on 41% shooting
5-17-09 - 14/7/5/3/2 on 33% shooting
5-29-09 - 35/6/10 on 60% shooting
6-14-09 - 30/6/5/4 on 43% shooting
4-30-10 - 32/7/3 on 48% shooting
5-10-10 - 32pts on 48% shooting
5-29-10 - 37/6 on 48% shooting
6-17-10 - 23/15 on 25% shooting
4-28-11 - 24pts on 37% shooting

Not too shabby for a "choke artist", don't you think?


1. Nobody said Dirk didn't get help. I said the biggest difference in that series was the play of Dirk vs Kobe...which it was. You listed some cherry picked stats for Dirk's teammates....when in reality, Kobe got as much help. Bynum was a beast in that series, and even on a bad day Gasol is better than pretty much any other Mavs player.

Blaming the "help" as the reason why the Lakers lost is silly. Plain and simple.

Kobe no showed after game 1 and was terrible in clutch moments.

2. Did I call Kobe a "choke artist" in this thread? Nope.

I merely mentioned that he is a very poor player in elimination games compared to the best. I even gave you his overall numbers. Very poor.

3. Close out games are not elimination games. Completely different. I never brought them up once and they have no relevance in this debate whatsoever. Did Kobe have a chance to close out the Mavs? Nope. Relevance? None.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, he did get just as much help IMO, if not much more when you consider all aspects of the game (defense, playmaking, veteran leadership, etc). Dirk scored 28% of this teams total points, while Duncan scored 26% of the Spurs 2003 points. Hardly a huge difference, when you consider Dirk wasn't leading the team in many other areas like Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq/ etc were. Dirk averaged a meager 5% of the teams offensive boards, 12% of the teams assists, and 15% of the teams total blocks. None of those marks are especially high (compared to Duncan in 03 or Hakeem in 94, which he's being compared to on ISH)...

The Mavs built the perfect team around Dirk, and it took like 12 years to do it. Now, Dirk-Homers are mad because he actually had enough help to win it all - and they actually did help. You hear about how tough his competition was, yet his teammates hardly get any of the credit in toppling said competition. J Kidd lead the team assists and steals, Chandler lead the team in boards and blocks, and Terry/Kidd lead the team in three's made. He had sufficient help.


Its not one or the other. I hope you realize this. No player has ever won alone at all.

Hell, even in 94 Hakeem got sufficient help.

Duncan in 03 got sufficient help.

Dirk got help for sure, but compared to most title teams his supporting cast was one of the worst to win the title in the last 30 years.

And who is saying Dirk played individually better than Hakeem or Duncan? I have never said that. So you are arguing against a ghost.

And now this thread is back to debating what a playoff run actually means and tpols hijacking it to claim Dirk's help is somehow on par with Kobe's help....and that is laughable.

Here is the truth:

Terry: 18/2/3 48%
Marion: 12/6/2 47%
Kidd: 9/5/7 40%
Barea: 9/2/3 42%
Chandler: 8/9 58%
Peja: 7/2 41%
Stevenson: 5/1 35%
Haywood: 3/4 58%

Was it a very solid supporting cast? Absolutely
Did they step up? Absolutely
Did they carry Dirk at times? Absolutely

Are they nearly as good as TPOLS is suggesting? Absolutely not.

And one thing that doesn't get enough mention is that Dirk plays unselfishly unlike most superstars. Dirk does not dominate the ball. He plays team basketball. He rarely forces it and allows his teammates to flourish. That is why his teammates played well. His style promotes team play and positive contributions from everyone. No player feels left out of the game.

Compare that to a player like Kobe. A player whose style alone inhibits the play of his teammates very often for numbers. So its not even a fair comparison to begin with.



What is so interesting is that you both go on and on about Dirk not being a defender....yet you both praise Terry. Terry is worse defensively than Dirk. Much worse actually because not only is he a liability, but he's a terrible defensive rebounder. Averaging a pathetic 1.9 total rebounds per game in 33 minutes a game. Just awful.

Tpols claims Dirk was bad in the finals because he shot 42%. Interesting how he praises Kidd and Barea.....both of whom shot under 42% for the entire playoffs.

The lack of consistency is shocking, but I expect nothing less from a person that continues to try and make Dirk look worse in each post by posting wrong information constantly.

[catch24]

1. Nobody said Dirk didn't get help. I said the biggest difference in that series was the play of Dirk vs Kobe...which it was. You listed some cherry picked stats for Dirk's teammates....when in reality, Kobe got as much help. Bynum was a beast in that series, and even on a bad day Gasol is better than pretty much any other Mavs player.

Blaming the "help" as the reason why the Lakers lost is silly. Plain and simple

Right, but people are claiming Dirk carried the Mavs that Lakers series, and, well, it's just not true.

Those stats were cherry picked? Uhh, what? lol. It was only a 4 game series; I listed 3 of the 4 games (hell I didn't even list G4 which was an entire team effort). I'd say Kobe got more help but his teammates were far less consistent. Bynum came to play, but Pau was incredibly soft and Odom was so-so. You didn't see that with the Mavericks. Each game they had a new guy stepping up all while the 3-ball continued to kill LA.

I blame Kobe mostly, because he is their leader AND he DID come up small in the clutch this series. However, I'm not gonna ignore the Lakers defense and other flaws either. Something that will be addressed this off season.


Did I call Kobe a "choke artist" in this thread? Nope.

I merely mentioned that he is a very poor player in elimination games compared to the best. I even gave you his overall numbers. Very poor.

3. Close out games are not elimination games. Completely different. I never brought them up once and they have no relevance in this debate whatsoever. Did Kobe have a chance to close out the Mavs? Nope. Relevance? None.

You're implying he's awful with his 'back against the wall'... Like he is some sort of choker. Far from. In fact he is one of the best players in elimination games (most of that "irrelevant list" includes Game 6 and 7's--take that for whatever it's worth).

[Svendiggity]

Dirk got help for sure, but compared to most title teams his supporting cast was one of the worst to win the title in the last 30 years.


In the last 30 years I can't think of any team with better ball movement, more knockdown shooters, and more poise than the Mavericks.

[SCdac]

Its not one or the other. I hope you realize this. No player has ever won alone at all.

Hell, even in 94 Hakeem got sufficient help.

Duncan in 03 got sufficient help.

Dirk got help for sure, but compared to most title teams his supporting cast was one of the worst to win the title in the last 30 years.

First off, I wasn't arguing with you.

I agree every team needs helps, it's just painfully obvious Dirk-homers are mad about the mighty Dirk actually needing help.

Secondly, agree to disagree about the Mavs talent...

"supporting cast is one of the worst to win in the last 30 years" I think is an exaggeration for the sake of glorifying Dirk Nowitzki. AS I mentioned earlier in this thread, the team is made up of former 1st round picks and players who've made AS games, and their PG lead his own team to the Finals earlier in his career.

One of the worst supporting casts, yet, it's not like Dirk was the main rebounder, it's not like Dirk was the best defensive player, it's not like Dirk was getting his hand on the most steals or blocks, and it's not like he was creating the most plays for his team. It makes no sense. That team allowed a mostly offensive player to thrive.

Personally, I don't think they are an all-time great team (compared to like the 80's Lakers and shit).... but, let's not act like they are a first round exit team either... or that it's just Dirk that made the team win. It is team game, and his team covered alot of the bases they needed to cover.

Championship teams don't play championship teams of the past... they play today's competition... and the Mavericks were clearly the best team in the league... so, to downgrade their cast, you also have to downgrade every team they played against and beat, because having lost to the "pathetic" Mavs they must be an even worse team.... no?

You can't say that "just Dirk overachieved, but the team sucked" because clearly that wasn't the case.

[DMAVS41]

Right, but people are claiming Dirk carried the Mavs that Lakers series, and, well, it's just not true.

Those stats were cherry picked? Uhh, what? lol. It was only a 4 game series; I listed 3 of the 4 games (hell I didn't even list G4 which was an entire team effort). I'd say Kobe got more help but his teammates were far less consistent. Bynum came to play, but Pau was incredibly soft and Odom was so-so. You didn't see that with the Mavericks. Each game they had a new guy stepping up all while the 3-ball continued to kill LA.

I blame Kobe mostly, because he is their leader AND he DID come up small in the clutch this series. However, I'm not gonna ignore the Lakers defense and other flaws either. Something that will be addressed this off season.



You're implying he's awful with his 'back against the wall'... Like he is some sort of choker. Far from. In fact he is one of the best players in elimination games (most of that "irrelevant list" includes Game 6 and 7's--take that for whatever it's worth).

I never said Dirk carried the Mavs against the Lakers. I said the main difference was the play between Kobe and Dirk.

1 was great and super clutch.
1 was average and not clutch.

I stand by my statement.



Not at all. In elimination games, Kobe has played poorly. I will again post his numbers in his prime:

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/the-elite-in-elimination-games-since-1991/

That list is missing his game from this year....

I never implied Kobe was a choker. I merely pointed out that he and his teams have a certain history in games like game 4. Kobe has now been a part of quite a few shocking blow outs in circumstances like game 4.

Again, he faced one of those games against the Mavs....

Had he had a closeout game your other list would be relevant. I still don't see the relevance in close out games when discussing Kobe and the Mavs this year. That is just confusing the issue further.

[DMAVS41]

First off, I wasn't arguing with you.

I agree every team needs helps, it's just painfully obvious Dirk-homers are mad about the mighty Dirk actually needing help.

Secondly, agree to disagree about the Mavs talent...

"supporting cast is one of the worst to win in the last 30 years" I think is an exaggeration for the sake of glorifying Dirk Nowitzki. AS I mentioned earlier in this thread, the team is made up of former 1st round picks and players who've made AS games, and their PG lead his own team to the Finals earlier in his career.

One of the worst supporting casts, yet, it's not like Dirk was the main rebounder, it's not like Dirk was the best defensive player, it's not like Dirk was getting his hand on the most steals or blocks, and it's not like he was creating the most plays for his team. It makes no sense. That team allowed a mostly offensive player to thrive.

Personally, I don't think they are an all-time great team (compared to like the 80's Lakers and shit).... but, let's not act like they are a first round exit team either... or that it's just Dirk that made the team win. It is team game, and his team covered alot of the bases they needed to cover.

Championship teams don't play championship teams of the past... they play today's competition... and the Mavericks were clearly the best team in the league... so, to downgrade their cast, you also have to downgrade every team they played against and beat, because having lost to the "pathetic" Mavs they must be an even worse team.... no?

You can't say that "just Dirk overachieved, but the team sucked" because clearly that wasn't the case.


Nobody is taking it that far though.

That is your problem.

Nobody is saying the Mavs sucked and it was all Dirk.


And as to the bold.....yes they were. Many picked them to lose in the first round actually. That is what everyone is forgetting. They were first round exit material.

LOL

Its just a huge double standard. What happened after the Mavs lost the Spurs last year? Dirk was hammered. Called a choker and soft yet again.

Did it matter that he actually played amazing? 27/8/3 on 55% fg, 57% 3, 95% ft.....Did that matter at all? Hell no.

But now, when his team does win, everyone here seems hell bent on not giving him the amount of credit he deserves. Which again, is funny because for years and years.....and certainly the last year here...what did everyone say;?

"As the leader of the team you get all the credit for the wins and all the blames for the losses"

Funny how that has changed now that a player won that the majority of people had BS perceptions about and are still hanging on to those instead of admitting they were wrong.

[KingBeasley08]

He will be Top 20 at that point

[SCdac]

Nobody is taking it that far though.

That is your problem.

Nobody is saying the Mavs sucked and it was all Dirk.


And as to the bold.....yes they were. Many picked them to lose in the first round actually. That is what everyone is forgetting. They were first round exit material.

LOL

What people expected to happen does not = what actually happened.

expectation do not make a team what it it is. how they play does.

The Mavs played like a championship team, and WON a championship.

You're saying "nobody is taking it that far" and "nobody is saying the Mavs sucked", yet at the same time you can't let go of the thought of people having low expectations of them coming into the playoffs. As if that is a determinant in... anything.... It's almost like you still think they are a first round exit team - despite what happened. Despite how strong of a TEAM they proved to be.

[catch24]

I never said Dirk carried the Mavs against the Lakers. I said the main difference was the play between Kobe and Dirk.

1 was great and super clutch.
1 was average and not clutch.

I stand by my statement.

I know. I'm saying "people" -- not you specifically, Gino.


I still don't see the relevance in close out games when discussing Kobe and the Mavs this year. That is just confusing the issue further.

Because "elimination games" are deceptive. Take for instance the 2006 postseason. Kobe plays like an MVP games 5 and 6 -- scores 50 points (both were close-out games), and goes into game 7 scoring 24 points in the first half, only to see his team losing by 15+. What more do you want from the guy? Not only that, but he's played in 12 elimination games. That's compared to D-Wade and LeBron who've only been apart of 6, and have been sub par in half of them. This is why there should be some context in some of those numbers -- too many people throw them out there like it depicts the players career. Close-out games are just as important, imo. Every game in the playoffs is important, lol.

Dirk has been the only player THIS ERA to really be elite if we're just talking about elimination games.

[chazzy]

AND STOP MAKING POSTS WITH FALSE INFORMATION. DIRK SHOT 42% IN THE FINALS. YOU ROUND UP NOT DOWN YOU ****ING AGENDA DRIVEN MORON. CAN YOU EVER JUST MAKE A POST WITH ACCURATE INFORMATION?

DIRK SHOT 41.6% IN THE FINALS. EITHER STOP MAKING SHIT UP OR LEARN SIMPLE MATH.
Can people scream at you like this whenever you say Kobe's a 40% scorer in the finals, when it's technically 41%? :oldlol: Holy shit

[DMAVS41]

Can people scream at you like this whenever you say Kobe's a 40% scorer in the finals, when it's technically 41%? :oldlol: Holy shit

He's done it purposely now like 5 times and I've called him on it every time.

LOL...

ISH police Chazzy....good stuff

[DMAVS41]

I know. I'm saying "people" -- not you specifically, Gino.



Because "elimination games" are deceptive. Take for instance the 2006 postseason. Kobe plays like an MVP games 5 and 6 -- scores 50 points (both were close-out games), and goes into game 7 scoring 24 points in the first half, only to see his team losing by 15+. What more do you want from the guy? Not only that, but he's played in 12 elimination games. That's compared to D-Wade and LeBron who've only been apart of 6, and have been sub par in half of them. This is why there should be some context in some of those numbers -- too many people throw them out there like it depicts the players career. Close-out games are just as important, imo. Every game in the playoffs is important, lol.

Dirk has been the only player THIS ERA to really be elite if we're just talking about elimination games.

1. Your numbers are wrong. I know Kobe has played 12 elimination games since 01. So he's definitely played more than 12 for his career.

2. I wouldn't use 06 game 7 as a good example. Kobe quit on his team in the 2nd half. Its not deceptive. It is what it is. Elimination games are different than close out games. They are totally different.

If you want to talk about close out games I'm all for it. But that is a totally different topic and again has no relevance with Kobe against the Mavs in an elimination game.

[creepingdeath]

I know. I'm saying "people" -- not you specifically, Gino.



Because "elimination games" are deceptive. Take for instance the 2006 postseason. Kobe plays like an MVP games 5 and 6 -- scores 50 points (both were close-out games), and goes into game 7 scoring 24 points in the first half, only to see his team losing by 15+. What more do you want from the guy? Not only that, but he's played in 12 elimination games. That's compared to D-Wade and LeBron who've only been apart of 6, and have been sub par in half of them. This is why there should be some context in some of those numbers -- too many people throw them out there like it depicts the players career. Close-out games are just as important, imo. Every game in the playoffs is important, lol.

Dirk has been the only player THIS ERA to really be elite if we're just talking about elimination games.
I agree with the bolded but I can't wrap my mind around the fact that you took game 7 against the Suns as an example. What did I expect from Kobe? Well, maybe to man up and not throw his own team under the bus in the second half? Even if you're losing... at least do it with grace. And it's not that a 15+ point deficit is impossible to catch up.

[catch24]

1. Your numbers are wrong. I know Kobe has played 12 elimination games since 01. So he's definitely played more than 12 for his career.

I left out his Game 7 performance vs Sac, but no, other than that, you're wrong. That's the list.


2. I wouldn't use 06 game 7 as a good example. Kobe quit on his team in the 2nd half. Its not deceptive. It is what it is. Elimination games are different than close out games. They are totally different.

Elimination games by definition, are different, but they're all in the playoffs, when every game is important a la close-out games. I used Game 7, because he wouldn't need to be playing in an elimination game had his teammates showed up. Seriously, how putrid does a team have to be when it's best player scores 24 points in a half (on flawless efficiency), in a game 7, yet still be down 15 points?


If you want to talk about close out games I'm all for it. But that is a totally different topic and again has no relevance with Kobe against the Mavs in an elimination game.

They're different, but the same when you look at the big picture. That's all I'm saying.

[catch24]

I agree with the bolded but I can't wrap my mind around the fact that you took game 7 against the Suns as an example. What did I expect from Kobe? Well, maybe to man up and not throw his own team under the bus in the second half? Even if you're losing... at least do it with grace. And it's not that a 15+ point deficit is impossible to catch up.

I heavily scrutinized Kobe after that 2nd half performance, but in heindsight... I mean damn... You score 50 points to close them out at home and your team finds a way to lose? Hell, Game 5 he was money, played the all-around game, and his team was blown out.

The guy scores 20+ points in the first half of Game 7, and his team is down by 15+. Phil asks him to start passing the ball more, and the rest is history.

I get what you're saying, and while I don't think it was right, lets be real, they weren't gonna win that game, dude.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think your numbers are right:

97: 2
98: 1
99: 1
00: 1

And then according to this:

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/the-elite-in-elimination-games-since-1991/

Kobe has played 11 elimination games from 01 to 10.....then obviously another 1 this year.

That brings the total to 17.
:confusedshrug:

[BlackJoker23]

I don't think your numbers are right:

97: 1
98: 1
99: 1
00: 1

And then according to this:

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/the-elite-in-elimination-games-since-1991/

Kobe has played 11 elimination games from 01 to 10.....then obviously another 1 this year.

That brings the total to 16.
:confusedshrug:
check yo facts bro. he played 2 elim games in 00. game 5 vs sac and game 7 vs por.

[DMAVS41]

I heavily scrutinized Kobe after that 2nd half performance, but in heindsight... I mean damn... You score 50 points to close them out at home and your team finds a way to lose? Hell, Game 5 he was money, played the all-around game, and his team was blown out.

The guy scores 20+ points in the first half of Game 7, and his team is down by 15+. Phil asks him to start passing the ball more, and the rest is history.

I get what you're saying, and while I don't think it was right, lets be real, they weren't gonna win that game, dude.

He also airballed the game winner in game 6. He makes that shot and they are in the 2nd round.

As to your point about every game being important. Absolutely. Could not agree more. I never said or implied otherwise.

I just merely pointed to the fact that Kobe has really struggled in elimination games. Its just a fact.

That does not mean those are more important at all.

[DMAVS41]

check yo facts bro. he played 2 elim games in 00. game 5 vs sac and game 7 vs por.

thanks. that even further makes my point.

bringing his total to at least 17.....LOL

[creepingdeath]

I heavily scrutinized Kobe after that 2nd half performance, but in heindsight... I mean damn... You score 50 points to close them out at home and your team finds a way to lose? Hell, Game 5 he was money, played the all-around game, and his team was blown out.

The guy scores 20+ points in the first half of Game 7, and his team is down by 15+. Phil asks him to start passing the ball more, and the rest is history.

I get what you're saying, and while I don't think it was right, lets be real, they weren't gonna win that game, dude.
As I've mentioned before, I don't put that loss on him... but what Kobe did was still a disgrace.

[DMAVS41]

CATCH 24

I just went through and counted at least 17 elimination games played by Kobe in his career.

So sorry, you are wrong.

[catch24]

I don't think your numbers are right:

97: 1
98: 1
99: 1
00: 1

And then according to this:

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/the-elite-in-elimination-games-since-1991/

Kobe has played 11 elimination games from 01 to 10.....then obviously another 1 this year.

That brings the total to 16.
:confusedshrug:

Elimination games by definition is when your team is out of the playoffs if they lose said game, correct?

From 01-10 in order:

'01 - Lakers went 16-1 in the playoffs.
'02 - There was only one Game 7, vs Sac. Every other series was in 5 or less games with the Lakers never trailing.
'03 - One elimination game vs Sac
'04 - One elimination game vs Detroit
'05 - Lakers missed the playoffs
'06 - Game 7 vs Phoenix
'07 - Game 5 vs Phoenix
'08 - Game 6 vs Boston/Game 7 vs Boston (alright, so I missed Game 6--thats one)

'09 - Played in one game 7 and never trailed in any other series.
'10 - Trailed 3-2 going to Staples (ok, so I missed another game-- that's two).

'11 - Lost to Mavs

11 games total, correct. But as you and I pointed out, he played 4 from '97-00. That's 15, not 16. He played great Game 6 vs Boston ('10), and played alright game 5 vs Boston ('08).

EDIT - 2 elimination games in 2000 (the other being SAC). That best of 5 through me off, lol. So that's 16, right Gino?

[catch24]

I don't think your numbers are right:

97: 2
98: 1
99: 1
00: 1

And then according to this:

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/the-elite-in-elimination-games-since-1991/

Kobe has played 11 elimination games from 01 to 10.....then obviously another 1 this year.

That brings the total to 17.
:confusedshrug:

Kobe only played 6 minutes and went 0-0 in that '97 game vs Portland. I didn't use that against him.

[DMAVS41]

Elimination games by definition is when your team is out of the playoffs if they lose said game, correct?

From 01-10 in order:

'01 - Lakers went 16-1 in the playoffs.
'02 - There was only one Game 7, vs Sac. Every other series was in 5 or less games with the Lakers never trailing.
'03 - One elimination game vs Sac
'04 - One elimination game vs Detroit
'05 - Lakers missed the playoffs
'06 - Game 7 vs Phoenix
'07 - Game 5 vs Phoenix
'08 - Game 6 vs Boston/Game 7 vs Boston (alright, so I missed Game 6--thats one)

'09 - Played in one game 7 and never trailed in any other series.
'10 - Trailed 3-2 going to Staples (ok, so I missed another game-- that's two).

'11 - Lost to Mavs

11 games total, correct. But as you and I pointed out, he played 4 from '97-00. That's 15, not 16. He played great Game 6 vs Boston ('10), and played alright game 5 vs Boston ('08).

EDIT - 2 elimination games in 2000 (the other being SAC). That best of 5 through me off, lol. So that's 16, right Gino?

My count:

5 before 00

11 from 01 to 10

1 in 11

I count 17 total.

But that is not what this thread is about. There is no way to twist it. Kobe has been a pretty poor elimination game player. That is all I ever said....which is just the truth.

[tpols]

Please, Dirk got nowhere the help that Kobe got or Shaq got. I buy the argument that he got as much/a little more help than Duncan, it was really close. Hakeems 1st title he got basically no help, that is still the GOAT playoff run of any superstar that I have ever seen. Hakeems 2nd best player was Otis Thorpe.
He sure did.

I posted this in another thread..

You can do this with any comparison.. watch:

LA supporting cast versus Mavs supporting cast in the Finals..

For second options[who are generally called 'second options' because of their ability to relieve offensive pressure off of their main option, hence the reason why guys like rodman and b-wallace were never considered second options despite probably being more impactful than most of them] LA had Pau put up 18 a game on 48% shooting.. Dallas had Terry put up 18 a game on 49% shooting, which is actually even more efficient than it looks when you consider his hot 3point shooting. Total wash here..

Defensive stoppers at the small forward position.. Marion averaged 14/6 on 48%. Artest averaged 11/4 on 36%. Who won this matchup? Marion EASILY as their defensive impacts are similar or marion's is better.

Point Guard play? Barea averaged 9/3 on good percentages and was a huge difference maker once put in the starting lineup and Kidd averaged 8/6/5 while being the floor general.. PGs for LA? Fisher averaged 9/2 which doesn't even match the production of the Mav's BACKUP PG.. I'm not even going to post Farmar's numbers for your own embarrassment.. Dude shot under 33% and averaged like 3 points per game.:oldlol:

Bynum versus Chandler? Bynum averaged 7/5 on 45% shooting. Chandler averaged 10/9 on 59% shooting.. Wait whats going on here? Chandler, just like the marion-artest comparison is EASILY better than Bynum, and especially so when you consider Chandler was a better defender.

As far as some X-factors.. Odom averaged 8/6 on 49% shooting. Deshawn Stevenson averaged 7ppg solely on hot 3 point shooting as he finished 13/24 from deep, putting his overall efficiency through the roof.. he also provided great energetic defense for every minute he was in the game.

Now.. explain to me how LA's supporting cast played any better than the Mav's supporting cast in the finals. I would LOVE to hear this. :oldlol:
Kobe overall had a better second option because of Gasol's defense, but Dirk then had an advantage in every single other department. He simply had a better team in place.

Huge advantage in PG play.

Solid advantage in SF play.

Solid Advantage in Center play.

Much better bench production.

As far as second options go, Gasol put up 18ppg on 48% and Terry put up 18ppg on 49%.

Hilarious really. Dirk shot 37% throughout quarters 1 through 3 in the Finals and ended up shooting 41.5% overall and his teammates shot MUCH better than him yet somehow he was just carrying a bunch of role players?:oldlol:

Kobe by comparison scored more points than Dirk on similar efficiency, was a much better playmaker, rebounded the ball better for his position, played better defense on his man[he held rondo to lower numbers than he had put up in his whole playoff run:dude went from the MVP of the celtics against the cavs to a non-factor against the lakers] and Kobe's team BARELY eeked out the series for the title against an opponent of similar strength to the heat.. so what does that tell you? Dirk's teammates simply were better.

Again, in both the laker's and heat series, Dirk's supporting cast SIGNIFIGANTLY outplayed the other team's main man's supporting cast.. which means for their respective series, Terry/Marion/Stephenson/Kidd/Chandler/Barea were better than both:

a) Lebron/Bosh/Anthony/Chalmers/Haslem

and

b) Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Fisher/Odom

So if Dirk's supporting cast outplayed both of these supporting casts, two that are supposedly the best in the league, than how can this supporting cast be looked at as one of the worst of all time? They proved, in the playoffs, that they could outplay the best supporting casts in the whole LEAGUE.. and that is the ultimate expectation of what a great supporting cast can do.. outplay all of the other teams' supporting casts.

[catch24]

My count:

5 before 00

11 from 01 to 10

1 in 11

I count 17 total.

In the 11 from 01 to 10:


But that is not what this thread is about. There is no way to twist it. Kobe has been a pretty poor elimination game player. That is all I ever said....which is just the truth.

Not really; I was responding to your post where you referenced Dirk/Kobe. It's relevant to the discussion. My point was is that Elimination games aren't so black and white like you others are lead to believe. Hell, look at Shaq's numbers. Just because he underperformed in elimination games doesn't make me think any less of him. The guy was the most dominant player player of all-time at his peak.

I get that you were just pointing out elim-games, but as a response, all I did was point out how misleading they can be, especially when close-out games are just as important.

[DMAVS41]

Not really; I was responding to your post where you referenced Dirk/Kobe. It's relevant to the discussion. My point was is that Elimination games aren't so black and white like you others are lead to believe. Hell, look at Shaq's numbers. Just because he underperformed in elimination games doesn't make me think any less of him. The guy was the most dominant player player of all-time at his peak.

I get that you were just pointing out elim-games, but as a response, all I did was point out how misleading they can be, especially when close-out games are just as important.

Ok.

But close out games aren't relevant in a discussion about Kobe this year in the playoffs vs the Mavs.

Elimination games are. That is the difference.

One is relevant, the other is not.

I never said they were black and white or that they should be used to judge a player. Never once said that.

You are reading way too much into a simple statement of the facts.

[DMAVS41]

He sure did.

I posted this in another thread..

Kobe overall had a better second option because of Gasol's defense, but Dirk then had an advantage in every single other department. He simply had a better team in place.

Huge advantage in PG play.

Solid advantage in SF play.

Solid Advantage in Center play.

Much better bench production.

As far as second options go, Gasol put up 18ppg on 48% and Terry put up 18ppg on 49%.

Hilarious really. Dirk shot 37% throughout quarters 1 through 3 in the Finals and ended up shooting 41.5% overall and his teammates shot MUCH better than him yet somehow he was just carrying a bunch of role players?:oldlol:

Kobe by comparison scored more points than Dirk on similar efficiency, was a much better playmaker, rebounded the ball better for his position, played better defense on his man[he held rondo to lower numbers than he had put up in his whole playoff run:dude went from the MVP of the celtics against the cavs to a non-factor against the lakers] and Kobe's team BARELY eeked out the series for the title against an opponent of similar strength to the heat.. so what does that tell you? Dirk's teammates simply were better.

Again, in both the laker's and heat series, Dirk's supporting cast SIGNIFIGANTLY outplayed the other team's main man's supporting cast.. which means for their respective series, Terry/Marion/Stephenson/Kidd/Chandler/Barea were better than both:

a) Lebron/Bosh/Anthony/Chalmers/Haslem

and

b) Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Fisher/Odom

So if Dirk's supporting cast outplayed both of these supporting casts, two that are supposedly the best in the league, than how can this supporting cast be looked at as one of the worst of all time? They proved, in the playoffs, that they could outplay the best supporting casts in the whole LEAGUE.. and that is the ultimate expectation of what a great supporting cast can do.. outplay all of the other teams' supporting casts.


Dirk's supporting cast did not significantly outplay either. Especially not the Lakers. LOL

Go back and check what actually happened in the LA series. I know you can't see reality with your Kobe goggles on, but now this is just getting insane.

Is Kobe ever at fault? Kobe was a factor in 1 game of the series....game 1....and even then, Kobe crumbled in crunch time and missed yet another game winner.

Dirk was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe in that series.

That was the difference. The role players were just role players. The 2 leaders were the difference.

[catch24]

Ok.

But close out games aren't relevant in a discussion about Kobe this year in the playoffs vs the Mavs.

Elimination games are. That is the difference.

One is relevant, the other is not.

I never said they were black and white or that they should be used to judge a player. Never once said that.

You are reading way too much into a simple statement of the facts.

I know they aren't. Again, I was responding to your comments about Kobe 'laying down as usual with his back against the wall' (and the link you referenced). A lot of those close-out/elimination games I researched were in Game 6 and 7's -- with Kobe and the Lakers back against the wall (i.e. on the road with a possible G7 on the horizon, down in a middle of a series in a must win game, etc).

How exactly am I reading too much into it? I'm only replying to what you said dude.

[tpols]

Dirk's supporting cast did not significantly outplay either. Especially not the Lakers. LOL

Go back and check what actually happened in the LA series. I know you can't see reality with your Kobe goggles on, but now this is just getting insane.

Is Kobe ever at fault? Kobe was a factor in 1 game of the series....game 1....and even then, Kobe crumbled in crunch time and missed yet another game winner.

Dirk was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe in that series.

That was the difference. The role players were just role players. The 2 leaders were the difference.
Jason Terry: 20/4/2 on 59%FG

Pau Gasol: 13/9/4 on 42%FG

I thought second options mattered though.

What a clown.:oldlol:

[tpols]

And yes.. Dirk's supporting cast did outplay Kobe's supporting cast in the playoffs this year. It's absolutely undebatable.:oldlol:

[creepingdeath]

And yes.. Dirk's supporting cast did outplay Kobe's supporting cast in the playoffs this year. It's absolutely undebatable.:oldlol:
Yeah, they did. Just like Dirk severely outplayed Kobe. I can live with that. :confusedshrug:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Dirk's supporting cast did not significantly outplay either. Especially not the Lakers. LOL

Go back and check what actually happened in the LA series. I know you can't see reality with your Kobe goggles on, but now this is just getting insane.

Is Kobe ever at fault? Kobe was a factor in 1 game of the series....game 1....and even then, Kobe crumbled in crunch time and missed yet another game winner.

Dirk was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe in that series.

That was the difference. The role players were just role players. The 2 leaders were the difference.

Jason Terry and JJ Barea and JKidd say "WTF???"

Jason Terry almost single-handedly eliminated the Lakers. But he got some help from Barea and JKidd....and of course Chandler's interior D.

[catch24]

Yeah, they did. Just like Dirk severely outplayed Kobe. I can live with that. :confusedshrug:

So can I :cheers:

Despite Pau playing like a coked out tranny, LA was in position to win 2/4 games deep in the 4th, and Kobe just couldn't get it done. Had this been the KB we saw a couple years ago, your Mavs would have been in for a long series... Best believe that :oldlol:

[Jotaro Durant]

My nikka DMAVS41 lighting people up. :applause:

I have Dirk as 18 or 19 on my list, hopefully the lockout doesn't interfere with Dirk's consecutive 50-win seasons.

[creepingdeath]

So can I :cheers:

Despite Pau playing like a coked out tranny, LA was in position to win 2/4 games deep in the 4th, and Kobe just couldn't get it done. Had this been the KB we saw a couple years ago, your Mavs would have been in for a long series... Best believe that :oldlol:

Still don't know what had gotten into Pau. Sure, Dirk did play some nice D on him, but Gasol's whole demeanour, his body language just screamed PUSS*. Apparently, the story about his girlfriend cheating on him was a false rumour, which makes this even more of a mystery.

€dit: On a sidenote, though, that dude tpols is just pathetic. Comparing Terry's 18.0 / 2 / 3 on 49FG% to Gasol's 18ppg / 11 / 4 on 48FG with good defense.

[get these NETS]

If Dirk wins a second ring with a playoff run like the one he just had...he should move ahead of Hakeem on any list. Dirk has been a guaranteed 50+ winner every season, while Hakeem could only do that five times. Both would have one MVP and two Finals MVPs (assuming that Dirk would win another.) He would have done more with comparable rosters. And let's face reality, one of Hakeem's rings should have had an asterick attached, since MJ did not play on the 55-27 Bulls that season. And even then, Hakeem's Rockets barely beat a Ewing-led team that had no more talent than Hakeem's Rockets.

Dirk plays in a watered down league.

the ewing.shaq.robinson.k malone.jordan.magic.stockton.gp.kemp.

era was just a tougher league

[tpols]

Yeah, they did. Just like Dirk severely outplayed Kobe. I can live with that. :confusedshrug:
Yup.. Dirk did. This was probably the best playoff performance of Dirk's career, and meanwhile Kobe has clearly declined and is not at 'that' level anymore.

Doesn't change the fact that Dirk had his supporting cast play better than one of the best supporting casts in the league thereby verifying the strength of the Mavs supporting cast.

[creepingdeath]

Yup.. Dirk did. This was probably the best playoff performance of Dirk's career, and meanwhile Kobe has clearly declined and is not at 'that' level anymore.

Doesn't change the fact that Dirk had his supporting cast play better than one of the best supporting casts in the league thereby verifying the strength of the Mavs supporting cast.
This season was the most successful of Dirk's postseason runs, but individually, he's had better years. I think he was at his very peak in 2009, when he had improved defensively and leadership-wise (in comparison to, say, 2006), smaller or more physical defenders didn't bother him anymore while he was being very clutch and still athletic. He might have become even more clutch, but he can't rebound as well as he once did and clearly lost a step.

[Myth]

If Dirk wins a second ring with a playoff run like the one he just had...he should move ahead of Hakeem on any list. Dirk has been a guaranteed 50+ winner every season, while Hakeem could only do that five times. Both would have one MVP and two Finals MVPs (assuming that Dirk would win another.) He would have done more with comparable rosters. And let's face reality, one of Hakeem's rings should have had an asterick attached, since MJ did not play on the 55-27 Bulls that season. And even then, Hakeem's Rockets barely beat a Ewing-led team that had no more talent than Hakeem's Rockets.

:facepalm

I hate to break it to you, but Dirk's championship also came in a season when Jordan didn't play.

[dallaslonghorn]

Am I the only one who thinks Dirk is pretty much the same player he was at the start of the season as he is now?

He was the same dude in '09 putting up 35/12 on 50%+ shooting against Denver as he is today. Only difference is he has Tyson Chandler and Shawn Marion starting besides him instead of Erick Dampier and Antoine Wright.

NBA titles are team accomplishments. Trying to compare individual players strictly or primarily based on team performance seems a little silly to me.

[airchibundo507]

The premise of this thread was to iterate the fact that Dirk should have two titles under his belt right now and, if that were the case, to study how that would affect our current perception of him. Posters suggesting that Dirks needs two titles to secure a spot in top-15 rankings are neglecting the robbery that was the 2006 Finals.

[airchibundo507]

Am I the only one who thinks Dirk is pretty much the same player he was at the start of the season as he is now?

He was the same dude in '09 putting up 35/12 on 50%+ shooting against Denver as he is today. Only difference is he has Tyson Chandler and Shawn Marion starting besides him instead of Erick Dampier and Antoine Wright.

NBA titles are team accomplishments. Trying to compare individual players strictly or primarily based on team performance seems a little silly to me.

Denver played no defense. That's hardly a feat.

[BlackJoker23]

Denver played no defense. That's hardly a feat.
denver was a top 10 defensive team and stuck kmart on him most of the series. thats quite the feat actually.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Denver played no defense. That's hardly a feat.

Putting up those numbers is a feat regardless and Denver wasn't bad defensively that year. I don't think they were ever really bad, just not consistent or championship-caliber defensively. Putting up 34/12/4 on that kind of efficiency(53 FG%, 39 3P%, 92 FT%) is any playoff series is amazing, not many have had series like that, and it wasn't in the first round either.

As far as Dirk's peak? It's tough to say considering how consistent he's been. He's easily been top 10 every year since 2002, and he's been top 5 or borderline top 5 most years. His game has changed, and he does certain things better and other things not as well. I'm not sure him winning a championship should necessarily determine if he's better now or not, I've said for years that 2006 proved he was capable, it's just a matter of it all coming together. He had an unbelievable run to get to the finals that year. I think Dirk did show more leadership and toughness this year, though and he may be more unstoppable offensively than ever, particularly because of his improved passing(which he's continued to improve throughout his career).

2007 may have been his best regular season. and he may have been a more complete player than any other year, though the playoffs completely prevent me from thinking of that season like 2006, 2009 or this year.

Dirk did talk about learning from the 2006 finals and that may be what gives this year the edge, he was determined to play every game towards the end and capitalized on everything this run, he didn't waste any opportunities.

Injuries brought down his regular season numbers as well this year. Prior to his injury, he was averaging 25/8 on 54% shooting in 36 mpg. Pretty much scoring the same as his MVP season with 1 less rebound per game on better efficiency. Plus, Dallas was 23-5.

I am somewhat surprised though at this run, not because I didn't think Dirk had what it took to win a title, but because I didn't think he'd play arguably the best basketball of his career, and I didn't think his cast was talented. While he was still obviously among the best players in the league, I thought his best days were behind him to some degree. Not once the season started and he looked like one of the best MVP candidates, but coming off a first round exit at 32/33, I am surprised at what a year he had.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

In this thread I learned that Dirk apparently won the Finals all by his lonesome.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

I am somewhat surprised though at this run, not because I didn't think Dirk had what it took to win a title, but because I didn't think he'd play arguably the best basketball of his career, and I didn't think his cast was talented. While he was still obviously among the best players in the league, I thought his best days were behind him to some degree. Not once the season started and he looked like one of the best MVP candidates, but coming off a first round exit at 32/33, I am surprised at what a year he had.

He put up better "numbers" in 2006, but he wasn't a better basketball player. This year, he has been a better player because of his mentality. It isn't about the numbers anymore. When Artest guarded him on a possession against LA he told Terry to dump it down to him because "he'll take care of him" as Dirk put it. When Jet made the stupid mistake of leaving Chalmers wide open to tie the game, Dirk got mad... but then said: I got your back. Dirk the other day said he has finally grown into the role of "crunchtime 5th" player. Because as dirk said: that is the winning time.

He isn't as athletic as he was in 06. He aint the rebounder. But Dirk (right now) has that calm demeanor in the 4th quarter. That demeanor of **as long as it is relatively close I will bring it home**....

[-playmaker-]

#1 overall

Jordan had Pip


jk, I think that Dirk's cast was really amazing this year...ALL OF THEM...even freakin Cardinal did exactly what he should have.

we were raining 3s all over teams...Chandler was in beast mode...Barea made a name for himself...


our coach made the perfect calls...

EVERYTHING went perfectly...this could be the most overall "chemistry" I have ever seen in a bball team...EVER

what the Mavs did this year was the definition of "TEAM PLAY"...




That being said, that team was led by Dirk...former MVP and imo current MVP

[DMAVS41]

Jason Terry: 20/4/2 on 59%FG

Pau Gasol: 13/9/4 on 42%FG

I thought second options mattered though.

What a clown.:oldlol:

Bynum was better than Gasol.

Please take out the game 4 numbers. The Lakers quit. The series was over.

Care to post the numbers through three games? Of course not. Because Kobe got just as much help in those three games and managed to lead his team to losses in all of them.

The series was over by the time Terry went off in game 4. You think that one of the worst elimination game players of the last 20 years with a history of laying down when the going gets tough is going to make the greatest comeback in NBA history? Don't think so....LOL

Terry's first three games:

1 - 15/4/3
2 - 9/5/2
3 - 23/3/2

Terry shot 50% in the first 3 games and averaged 16 points.

Oh my god. Amazing. What an amazing feat.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[kaiiu]

top 15

[Jacks3]

He'd still be borderline top 20, and he still wouldn't be a better basketball player than guys like KG, Malone, Barkley. Rings do not make a better player.

[kaiiu]

not better than Barkley, but better than Malone imo

[Mrofir]

#1 overall

Jordan had Pip


jk, I think that Dirk's cast was really amazing this year...ALL OF THEM...even freakin Cardinal did exactly what he should have.

we were raining 3s all over teams...Chandler was in beast mode...Barea made a name for himself...


our coach made the perfect calls...

EVERYTHING went perfectly...this could be the most overall "chemistry" I have ever seen in a bball team...EVER

what the Mavs did this year was the definition of "TEAM PLAY"...




That being said, that team was led by Dirk...former MVP and imo current MVP

yes, reminded me of the Suns WCF run last year, but with a happy ending

oh yeah

[kidcoolangot]

He would be second in all time PFs behind Duncan.