Peter Vecsey's interview with MJ from July '94

[Fatal9]

It seems like I've read excerpts of some of this stuff in the past but never the entire thing, so I'm guessing it's pretty rare?

It had been well over a year since I saw Michael Jordan in person; Game 6 of the 1993 Finals in Phoenix, to be precise. More than two years had evaporated since we'd had any kind of undisturbed, lengthy communication. For most of his career, Jordan had been one of sports' most accessible and cooperative superstars. Rarely did anyone in the media come away from even an impromptu interview without a great story. Then, following the Bulls' first championship stampede, there was money to be made off his legend, and his confidants were the first to capitalize.

Controversial statements regarding teammates and opponents stuff he'd been saying for years in front of familiar faces, suddenly became public. Shortly thereafter, his bent for betting, his association with lowlifes and his monumental losses in golf and cards were exposed and magnified out of proportion. Consequently, as the Bulls evolved into your every day dynasty - repeating and threepeating - and the scrutiny of Jordan's lifestyle intensified, he made himself unavailable to real reporters. Physically drained, mentally exhausted, uninspired and unchallenged, organized basketball had become a serious drag. Most people are under the impression that his father's death a year ago on July 23, eight days before his birthday, was the driving force behind Michael's premature retirement at age 31. They are mistaken.

THAT was the first point the Birmingham Barren (hitting .187) right fielder emphasized after we sat down with Magic guard Nick Anderson and former Bulls' teammate Rod Higgins following Tuesday night's 3-2, 10-inning loss to the Orlando Cubs. "During the second half of my last season, I'd tell the guys over a couple beers on flights after games I was going to retire. But they didn't believe me," Jordan recounted. " 'You'll see,' I told 'em. I
had totally lost interest. I knew I had to give it up." For several significant reasons:

"My father was after me all that season to pack it in when it was over. He felt my teammate didn't appreciate what I was doing for them," said Jordan, specifically referring to Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. "I covered their asses when they got tight at the end of games and I had to overcome fourth-quarter deficits all by myself. It bothered my father a lot, just as it bothered me, to hear them bitchin' about not getting enough credit, or not getting enough shots, or squawking about the supposed preferential treatment I was getting from [coach] Phil Jackson 'I said to Horace, 'Why should you worry about what I'm getting now when I'm not worried about what you're going to get later?"

"They had no idea how much pressure and grief I had to put up with off the court while carrying them on the court. I wanted them to find out for themselves how tough it was to be on their own," Jordan underlined. "Scottie found out the hard way what it's like to be under the microscope 24 hours a day. "For the first half of the season he did great carrying the team, the second half not so great. Sitting at the end of Game 3 against the Knicks was the worst thing he could've done. I don't think he'll ever live that down.

"He should have known better. Plenty of times Phil I would use me as a decoy in that same situation. I didn't like it either, but you can't say anything. You wait until you're behind closed doors until you wait to complain.

"The thing about it is, if Toni Kukoc missed the last shot, Phil's neck was on the line, not Scottie's. The game would've gone into overtime and Scottie
would've had the opportunity to win it."

JORDAN'S retirement was also prompted by Jackson's continual desire to down load his offensive responsibility. "I like Phil a lot," he said. "I think he's one of the best coaches in the game. He cares about the players, but he also knows how to separate himself from them, too, which is very important.

"What I objected to was Phil's insistence to diversify the offense. Each year he stressed that more and more. I didn't like it, because it put more pressure on me to produce at crunch time after being out of rhythm most of the game."

Jordan conveyed his disapproval for Jackson's offense and disinterest in playing the regular season to GM Jerry Krause two weeks before training camp was to open. A decision to retire had been made, he declared. Krause asked him to keep his mind open a little bit longer until he met with Jackson. "If Phil could have come up with something, I might have stayed," Jordan said. "If I could have sat for a large portion of the regular season, the way Bill Cartwright did, I would have stayed. But Phil couldn't come with a solution or a reason why I should stay."

"Let's face it, if I was allowed to sit out until a month before the playoffs, something like that, the media would have been all over me. They would have said, 'Who does he think he is? He thinks he's above the game. He's not a team player! He's selfish!' All those thing.

"I didn't want to make any demands about getting the ball, because it would have been perceived as being selfish. I wanted an alternative. "This wasn't about winning another scoring title. I'll admit I was selfish my first few years, but not after that. This was about the perception of fans and the media as my average diminished each year. They'd see it as me slipping when it wasn't true. I could've averaged 32-33 a game for the next four years. The last thing I wanted was to defend myself to the media night after night."

CLEARLY, the media played an influential part in Jordan's retirement. He found out, much to his dismay and disgust, that when you attain his
echelon of celebrity, people look to tear you down. It happens in sports, entertainment, politics, all walks of high visibility.

"They can't find fault in what you do for a living, so they look for warts and weaknesses in your private life," Jordan said, still angry. "The media came after me the last couple years because they couldn't write anything bad about my play. They couldn't write any longer I was a poor shooter. They couldn't write anymore I didn't make my teammates better. They couldn't write I wasn't a winner. So they harped on my gambling. "Meanwhile, I did nothing wrong, nothing that others in basketball [owners, coaches, other high-profile players, members of the media weren't doing and haven't been doing on golf courses and casinos for years."

"When my father disappeared, it was so irresponsible, so insensitive to link my father with my gambling," he went on. Why would he be a target just because I've lost big money? I've always paid my debts. Nobody had any evidence to support such speculation, but it didn't stop them from jumping to conclusions. "That was so unfair to my mother, my sisters and my brothers. Yet when it came out that his death had nothing to do with me, nobody took the time or used the same power they'd abused to apologize. They till haven't apologized."

HERE were two stories on the wire the day I arrived in Orlando. Shaquille O'Neal and Reggie Miller had been quoted saying Dream Team II was better than the original entity; and Celtic VP M.L. Carr aid he'd give the Bulls a No. 1 pick if allowed to talk to Jordan about joining Boston. Both irrational remarks drew characteristic responses from Jordan, his competitive juices boiling.

"Those guys are on the right team, because they're definitely dreaming," he said. "Not only was Dream Team I better, but we could beat them right now. The only player from our squad who wouldn't be able to contribute is Larry Bird. I'm in shape. Maglc's still playing games. Charles [Barkley] might need a little rehab on his back. The rest are still in their prime. If somebody could put it together for charity us against them that's one game I'd come out of retirement to play.

As far Carr is concerned Jordan thinks he's a loon.

"Why would I play for the Celtics?" he said. "If I were going to come back I'd play for the Bulls not a team I took such pleasure in beating. Why would I play for the Celts? Dominique is going to look strange enough in green."

JORDAN said one of the things he enjoys most about baseball is sitting around for an hour or more after the game discussing everything that had happened with his teammates (unlike in basketball when the players split quickly).

He loves the camaraderie and he loves talking baseball now that he is following it closely. However based on my four-hour visit with him he loves to talk basketball even more. He remains wired into the league and the Bulls.

Players such as Penny Hardaway and Shaq coache such as George Karl and Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf stay in constant touch whether it's to share information or to seek his opinion.

Reinsdorf for instance told him less than a month ago he almost resigned Grant. The owner had requested to talk with his unrestricted free agent without his agent present to discuss his future. At the meetng Reinsdorf asked Grant to come up with a figure he wanted and he d do the same. When they compared numbers the owner's was a few hundred thousand dollars less.

[Fatal9]

Reinsdorf said he'd make up the difference. He signed an agreement for $4M per for five and gave it to Grant when he left the office.

When Grant notified his agent Jimmy Sexton what had transpired he went berserk. Sexton also represents Pippen and is still seething at Krause pertaining to Grant's negotiations and for keeping him in the dark about Scottie's near-trade to Seattle for Shawn Kemp.

Both Karl and most recently Heat owner Billy Cunningham have also contacted Jordan regarding Pippen's talent proclivities and just compensation).

"I told Billy he's worth two good players" Jordan said. "Rice and Miner would be fair but that he shouldn't give up Seikaly. He's one of the few centers who plays inside and his game would complement Scottie's."

"Had Scottie gone to Seattle it would've been a great deal for the Sonics.
He would've made their players better. Kemp doesn't do that."

AFTER three hours with Jordan the only untouched subject was his comeback. Is he remotely considering a return to the sport he dominated for the majority of his nine NBA seasons? Since Day 1 I've maintained he wouldn't want to endure the torture of getting back into pro basketball shape.

Moreover his personality wouldn't permit him to be any less than the player he was when he left. That would be virtually impossible I submit after a year's layoff. Even for His Airness.

"You've got to be kidding," he responded. "Give me two weeks to work out and I could come back and average 32 a game. No question! Think about it that's only eight point quarter. If I only score two in one quarter that only means getting 14 in another."

It's all just a mental thing. Physically I'd have no problems. I wasn't hurting when I left and I m not hurting now.

Well then what's preventing Jordan from reversing professions before age becomes an impervious barrier?

"I can't think of anything that would make me come back," Jordan said. "If I'm through with baseball after a full year and I'm bored I can play golf. Money I've got 10-year deals with most of my sponsors and I m only in the second or third year with most of them."

I've thought about it a lot he added convincingly and I can't come up with a single reason to change my mind.

"Even if I did my pride would stop me. I'd never want the media to think they were right. Most of em predicted I'd be back. Well I won't. I still love the actual game but hate many aspects surrounding it. I'll play in charity and pickup games but I'll never play organized ball again."

[Fatal9]

I always thought Jordan's first retirement in part was to boost his legacy with what he figured would be a collapse of the Bulls team. Lot of people thought that's what would happen, maybe him too, and he didn't do them a favor by doing it right before the season started. Maybe he figures Bulls struggle because in his mind he seems to think they were nothing without him, and then he comes back mid-season (he doesn't seem opposed to joining mid-season in '94) but the success of the Bulls that year kept him away. Sounds really bitter with Scottie and Horace, taking little mini shots at Scottie (doesn't really need to bring up the game 3 incident, or give him much credit for what he did).

It was part being sick of media, partly to play baseball and maybe most of all an attempt to expose his teammates (but this failed).

[Solid Snake]

Interesting read. Jordan needs to write an autobiography.

[dd24]

That was a great post. There's some cool stuff in that article. It's fun to remember some of those story lines from back in the day.

[Harison]

Good insights :cheers:


Shaquille O'Neal and Reggie Miller had been quoted saying Dream Team II was better than the original.

Jordan: "Those guys are on the right team, because they're definitely dreaming," he said. "Not only was Dream Team I better, but we could beat them right now. The only player from our squad who wouldn't be able to contribute is Larry Bird. I'm in shape. Magic's still playing games. Charles [Barkley] might need a little rehab on his back. The rest are still in their prime. If somebody could put it together for charity us against them that's one game I'd come out of retirement to play.

Classic Jordan :roll:

[lefthook00]

Haha what a f*cking prick. I love it.

[Samurai Swoosh]

It was part being sick of media, partly to play baseball and maybe most of all an attempt to expose his teammates (but this failed).
That's the only thing you got out of this interview? Was your agenda the whole time for another "let's elevate Pip to diminish Jordan" sort of things you and Roundball Rock are known for notoriously?

Jordan was right though, even about Pippen pouting at the end of game 3.

And Jordan always was bailing them out in crunch time aka winning time aka Jordan time.

If you grew up watching the Bulls, you'd known Pippen wasn't a very good finisher late in games. And he always missed critical free-throws late in games.

None of what Jordan said here was a lie other than him never coming back to basketball. Which proved to be true.

Pippen and the Bulls didn't win anything w/o Jordan. They lost in the 2nd round. Is their some sort of alternative universe award for making it to the 2nd round? You guys act like Pippen carried the Bulls to a title. That '94 roster was an even better roster (outside of Jordan) then they were in '91, '92, and '93. You do realize this right?

What he proved was true ... Pippen's a great player, but he's not the end of game player and killer with the WILL POWER to win needed to advance to the big show.

And he was right, Pippen played best in the first half of the 1994 season, and didn't quite carry the load as well the rest of the year.

Hell in 1995, Pippen and BJ Armstrong were practically begging MJ to come back. So maybe it was a stroke to this guy's ego to have his player's acknowledge they need him in by asking him back.

But don't act like he just crapped all over Pippen. Trying to make MJ out to be evil, like you and RR always do. Did you miss the part where he said if Pippen was traded to the Heat the Bulls would deserve at least 2 good players in return?

Did you miss the part where he said Scottie is a great player who makes his teammates better, and that if that Seattle deal went through for Kemp (which almost did) ... Pippen would instantly make Seattle better than they were because "he makes people better" something Kemp clearly doesn't.

Missed all the praise he gave Pippen too, heh?

The biggest kick out of the article I got was this man's confidence, competive desire, and loyalty.

Saying he'd practice for 2 weeks come out out and immedietly average 32 ppg.

Saying he'd be willing to get the squad's together right then at the challenge and face the 2nd Dream Team.

Saying he would never on earth considering joining the Celtics, showing his loyalty to the Bulls and his desire to compete against the best.

That's a legend right there. Ultimate competitive spirit.

[KenneBell]

If Kobe said the same things about Gasol and Odom this would be a 10 page thread. :roll:

It takes a special type of person to carry a team and win. They don't have to be psycho competitive like MJ but not everyone can do it.

[che guevara]

Good post. It's always interesting to hear what superstars really think, rather than the PC bullshit you see 99% of the time.

[gengiskhan]

If Kobe said the same things about Gasol and Odom this would be a 10 page thread. :roll:

It takes a special type of person to carry a team and win. They don't have to be psycho competitive like MJ but not everyone can do it.

dumb ass

Kobe needs big men like Gasol & Odom to carry his bum knees & poor shot selection. MJ carried Grant & that garbage Cartwright for 3 rings.

[97 bulls]

That's the only thing you got out of this interview? Was your agenda the whole time for another "let's elevate Pip to diminish Jordan" sort of things you and Roundball Rock are known for notoriously?

Jordan was right though, even about Pippen pouting at the end of game 3.

And Jordan always was bailing them out in crunch time aka winning time aka Jordan time.

If you grew up watching the Bulls, you'd known Pippen wasn't a very good finisher late in games. And he always missed critical free-throws late in games.

None of what Jordan said here was a lie other than him never coming back to basketball. Which proved to be true.

Pippen and the Bulls didn't win anything w/o Jordan. They lost in the 2nd round. Is their some sort of alternative universe award for making it to the 2nd round? You guys act like Pippen carried the Bulls to a title. That '94 roster was an even better roster (outside of Jordan) then they were in '91, '92, and '93. You do realize this right?

What he proved was true ... Pippen's a great player, but he's not the end of game player and killer with the WILL POWER to win needed to advance to the big show.

And he was right, Pippen played best in the first half of the 1994 season, and didn't quite carry the load as well the rest of the year.

Hell in 1995, Pippen and BJ Armstrong were practically begging MJ to come back. So maybe it was a stroke to this guy's ego to have his player's acknowledge they need him in by asking him back.

But don't act like he just crapped all over Pippen. Trying to make MJ out to be evil, like you and RR always do. Did you miss the part where he said if Pippen was traded to the Heat the Bulls would deserve at least 2 good players in return?

Did you miss the part where he said Scottie is a great player who makes his teammates better, and that if that Seattle deal went through for Kemp (which almost did) ... Pippen would instantly make Seattle better than they were because "he makes people better" something Kemp clearly doesn't.

Missed all the praise he gave Pippen too, heh?

The biggest kick out of the article I got was this man's confidence, competive desire, and loyalty.

Saying he'd practice for 2 weeks come out out and immedietly average 32 ppg.

Saying he'd be willing to get the squad's together right then at the challenge and face the 2nd Dream Team.

Saying he would never on earth considering joining the Celtics, showing his loyalty to the Bulls and his desire to compete against the best.

That's a legend right there. Ultimate competitive spirit.
I see what your saying swoosh, but it goes both ways. You sound like a kobe fan when they say jordan didn't win in his first few years. Jordan obviously didn't take over games enough for his team to win early in his career. Otherwise, he would've won earlier. And I know youe reply will be he didn't have a good enough team. And I honestly agree. But don't hold the same thing against pippen. He hit big shots, he got clutch steals etc.

And don't try to even begin to say that kukoc was equal to pippen. And a rookie kukoc no less.

[97 bulls]

Honestly, it sounds like he retired to prove a point. The point that the bulls would suck without him. And he was kinda outdone when they still stayed competitive.

I think this was a lesson for jordan and pippen. Pippen wanted the limelight and got it. And realized how hard it was to be jordan. But I also feel 94 humbled jordan too. Im sure he thought they'd be at best a 500 team. And at best get swept out of the first round. And when it didn't happen, jordan realized that maybe the squad he had was pretty damn good.

And this is why I think they took the bulls to new levels from 96-98. They both realized they needed each other. And both were important to the others success.

[iamgine]

When you take the supposed GOAT out of a team and replace him with Pete freakin Myers, you expect a big drop-off. Instead, the Bulls won 55 games and just barely missed the conference finals. I don't know if any other championship team could have done that.

[Samurai Swoosh]

You sound like a kobe fan when they say jordan didn't win in his first few years..
What are you even talking about?

[Samurai Swoosh]

When you take the supposed GOAT out of a team and replace him with Pete freakin Myers, you expect a big drop-off.
You must be young.

We didn't expect a "HUGE drop off" ... we just knew as Bulls fans we probably wouldn't win the ring again.

As a Bulls fan we knew we would still be a playoff team, we knew we'd still be good.

We won our fair share. No one is saying Jordan didn't have a solid team. They developed a core of guys that stuck together for three championships. They were battle tested so of course expecting them to get to at least the 2nd round wasn't improbable, and of course that first season they had the emotional response of wanting to PROVE people that they weren't just the "Jordanaires" ...

So they played really hard all year. They had three guys make the all star team just for that one season. BJ played lights out that year. Grant was playing for a contract, and Pippen upped his game.

The very next season they came back down to earth, though.

I don't get why using what the Bulls did in '94 like diminishes Jordan? lol ...

With Jordan they won 3 straight championships, the first team to do it since Russell's Celtics.

But in '94 they went out in the 2nd round. Regardless if it went 7 games, they lost. Period.

There is a huge difference in a team winning 3 straight championships and a team losing in the 2nd round.

[Samurai Swoosh]

And don't try to even begin to say that kukoc was equal to pippen. And a rookie kukoc no less.
The hell are you even talking about?

[Smoke117]

You must be young.

We didn't expect a "HUGE drop off" ... we just knew as Bulls fans we probably wouldn't win the ring again.

As a Bulls fan we knew we would still be a playoff team, we knew we'd still be good.

We won our fair share. No one is saying Jordan didn't have a solid team. They developed a core of guys that stuck together for three championships. They were battle tested so of course expecting them to get to at least the 2nd round wasn't improbable, and of course that first season they had the emotional response of wanting to PROVE people that they weren't just the "Jordanaires" ...

So they played really hard all year. They had three guys make the all star team just for that one season. BJ played lights out that year. Grant was playing for a contract, and Pippen upped his game.

The very next season they came back down to earth, though.

I don't get why using what the Bulls did in '94 like diminishes Jordan? lol ...

With Jordan they won 3 straight championships, the first team to do it since Russell's Celtics.

But in '94 they went out in the 2nd round. Regardless if it went 7 games, they lost. Period.

There is a huge difference in a team winning 3 straight championships and a team losing in the 2nd round.

They fell back down to earth? Losing Grant their 2nd best player had nothing to do with that right? Regardless, Pippen still had that team over .500 before Jordan returned and that itself is an accomplishment considering how shitty that team was.

[Samurai Swoosh]

They fell back down to earth? Losing Grant their 2nd best player had nothing to do with that right? Regardless, Pippen still had that team over .500 before Jordan returned and that itself is an accomplishment considering how shitty that team was.
I don't disagree. But yes, they came back down to earth. Was BJ an all star? No. That's what I mean by coming back down to earth. The scrubs on the Bulls played SUPER motivated ball in 1994.

[Smoke117]

I don't disagree. But yes, they came back down to earth. Was BJ an all star? No. That's what I mean by coming back down to earth. The scrubs on the Bulls played SUPER motivated ball in 1994.

Uh...Bj was better in 95 then he was in 94... but he was NEVER an all star to begin with and never belonged on the team, but his 95 season was better than his season in 94. The Bulls mostly won with defense in 94 after Jordan left as they were not a great offensive team obviously. When Grant left that left a big hole in the defense which Pippen tried to fill up by himself and practically almost did. Either way, I don't see how its coming back down when you lose your 2nd best player. You are supposed to win less when you lose good players...that's kind of how it works.

[Samurai Swoosh]

You are supposed to win less when you lose good players...that's kind of how it works.
As evident with the Bulls losing Jordan, and then Grant. That is how it works.

BJ wasn't "better" in 1995.

He averaged a point and assist more per game in 1994.

C'mon, son ... don't just run your mouth off.

:oldlol:

[kentatm]

Peter Vescey?

sorry, not reading that bum.

dude is a Skip Bayless/Sam Smith/Jay Mariotti style pull it out of your ass and throw it up against the wall bullshit artist.

[Smoke117]

And he had a .577ts% to 94's .547ts%...more efficient = better...this isn't rocket science, try to keep up.

[97 bulls]

What are you even talking about?
You know exactly what im talking about. How many times have you checked a kobe fan for saying jordan didn't win in his first few years while kobe did, by saying jordan didn't have a capable team?

But then turncoat and say pippen should've won in 94

[97 bulls]

The hell are you even talking about?
In your 1st post you said pippen help in 94 was better than jordans in 93. So in essence, your saying kukoc was pippens pippen so to speak. Cuz all the other plyers were there already.

[97 bulls]

I don't disagree. But yes, they came back down to earth. Was BJ an all star? No. That's what I mean by coming back down to earth. The scrubs on the Bulls played SUPER motivated ball in 1994.
Whatever you want to call it. Scottie pippen will that team just like anyother. I mean, can you at least acknowledge that the bulls lost grant and scott williams and replaced him with dickey simpkins,lerry krystowiak and corie blount? All drastic downgrades. If wade, kobe, james, magic whoever you wanna name were in pippens position you'd be singing praises to that player.

[Samurai Swoosh]

And he had a .577ts% to 94's .547ts%...more efficient = better...this isn't rocket science, try to keep up.
:oldlol:

I didn't know people were guarded at the free-throw line.

TS% ... haha

What a clown

[Samurai Swoosh]

But then turncoat and say pippen should've won in 94
Where did I say Pippen "should've won in 1994"? I'll wait.

[Samurai Swoosh]

In your 1st post you said pippen help in 94 was better than jordans in 93. So in essence, your saying kukoc was pippens pippen so to speak. Cuz all the other plyers were there already.
No I am talking about the entire team outside of Jordan was better than they were in '91, '92, and '93.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Whatever you want to call it. Scottie pippen will that team just like anyother. I mean, can you at least acknowledge that the bulls lost grant and scott williams and replaced him with dickey simpkins,lerry krystowiak and corie blount? All drastic downgrades. If wade, kobe, james, magic whoever you wanna name were in pippens position you'd be singing praises to that player.
Where did I say Pippen wasn't playing great?

[97 bulls]

No I am talking about the entire team outside of Jordan was better than they were in '91, '92, and '93.
Swoosh, this makes no sense. NONE.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Swoosh, this makes no sense. NONE.
Makes perfect sense ... 3 years of championship experience = better players.

You don't understand that concept?

[97 bulls]

Where did I say Pippen "should've won in 1994"? I'll wait.
No, you didn't come out and say it. But your whole post imples that. Noone credits pippen and the 94 bulls as if they won. But what they did in 94 was amazing. And you love to minimize it.

[97 bulls]

Makes perfect sense ... 3 years of championship experience = better players.

You don't understand that concept?
Where's the better players? Even more, now that I think about it, paxson didn't play much, neither did cartwright. And jordan wasn't there. They replaced pax with kerr and longley with cartwright. And jordan with kukoc. Championship experience. You need to quit.

[guy]

Honestly, it sounds like he retired to prove a point. The point that the bulls would suck without him. And he was kinda outdone when they still stayed competitive.

I think this was a lesson for jordan and pippen. Pippen wanted the limelight and got it. And realized how hard it was to be jordan. But I also feel 94 humbled jordan too. Im sure he thought they'd be at best a 500 team. And at best get swept out of the first round. And when it didn't happen, jordan realized that maybe the squad he had was pretty damn good.

And this is why I think they took the bulls to new levels from 96-98. They both realized they needed each other. And both were important to the others success.

WOW@you and fatal holding on to this. There's like 2 paragraphs talking about that, while the rest of the article talks about him retiring mostly because of the media. Its clear he lost interest in the game and a number of reasons contributed to that, with his teammates' lack of appreciation being just one of them. The media's constant microscope of him, being burnt out, not having much to prove, and his dad's death (regardless of what the article says, it was at the very least possibly a tipping point and had to have crossed his mind when he made the decision) are pretty clearly much bigger reasons why he retired. His teammates lack of appreciation and dependence on him were probably just another reason why that contributed to him. Anyone honestly think that if those other reasons didn't exist that that lack of appreciation would've been enough for him to retire? In the middle of his prime? On the other hand, there's a good chance he retires anyway even if he didn't feel that way about his teammates. I'd expect this from fatal, but the both of you sound like you have an agenda.

[97 bulls]

WOW@you and fatal holding on to this. There's like 2 paragraphs talking about that, while the rest of the article talks about him retiring mostly because of the media. Its clear he lost interest in the game and a number of reasons contributed to that, with his teammates' lack of appreciation being just one of them. The media's constant microscope of him, being burnt out, not having much to prove, and his dad's death (regardless of what the article says, it was at the very least possibly a tipping point and had to have crossed his mind when he made the decision) are pretty clearly much bigger reasons why he retired. His teammates lack of appreciation and dependence on him were probably just another reason why that contributed to him. Anyone honestly think that if those other reasons didn't exist that that lack of appreciation would've been enough for him to retire? In the middle of his prime? On the other hand, there's a good chance he retires anyway even if he didn't feel that way about his teammates. I'd expect this from fatal, but the both of you sound like you have an agenda.
What agenda? The scrutiny he endured is no different than anyone else that in the limelight. And similar to kobe/shaq it sounds like it was was a 2-way street. I alluded to both sides. Not just one. They both needed each other. Pippen and apparently grant to a lesser extent wanted that limelight and jordan gave it to them. But they failed to calculate the scrutiny that comes with the praise. There I've pointed out my agreement with jordans pov.

But when jordan retired and at the start of the seaosn no less, which didn't allow for the bulls to find a suitable replacement. I think he wanted to show and thought that the bulls would stumble on a grand scale. And when they didn't, I do think it vindicated pippen and the bulls as a legit championship team. Not just jordan leading a bunch of scrubs. Which he obviously thought and believed would show. And thus kinda humbled him and made him more of a team player.

[Beavis]

Wrong facts butt munch.
Jordan got his dad killed by the mob
that same mob forced Jordan out of the game.

[97 bulls]

Wrong facts butt munch.
Jordan got his dad killed by the mob
that same mob forced Jordan out of the game.
I try to stay away from that. You don't know if that's true, no more than other rumors. I mean, your talking about the mans father. And besides, what debt could the mob possibly have on jordan that he couldn't pay?

[Jacks3]

Biggest asshole ever. :oldlol:

[jstern]

I like this quote about Pippen.


"Had Scottie gone to Seattle it would've been a great deal for the Sonics.
He would've made their players better. Kemp doesn't do that."

It reminds me of playing full court and knowing when the less talented group is going to win, simply because of how some in the better team kill the offense by wanting to take every shot.

[G-train]

Jordan was a changed man when he came back in 95. He needed to be humbled and baseball did that.
He wouldn't believe half that stuff now.

[97 bulls]

Jordan was a changed man when he came back in 95. He needed to be humbled and baseball did that.
He wouldn't believe half that stuff now.
This is a great point. I think he realized his hunger for the game that made him from watching the rest of the minor league players. And realized that the bulls were better than what he and everyone else thought he was.

[iamgine]

I don't know how to say it better.

I think it's fair and logical to expect when you take the supposed GOAT out of a team and replace him with Pete Myers, you'd expect a big drop-off. Instead, the Bulls won 55 games and just barely missed the conference finals, showing that they were one of the best teams even without the supposed GOAT.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I don't know how to say it better.

I think it's fair and logical to expect when you take the supposed GOAT out of a team and replace him with Pete Myers, you'd expect a big drop-off. Instead, the Bulls won 55 games and just barely missed the conference finals, showing that they were one of the best teams even without the supposed GOAT.
Losing in the 2nd round is "one of the best" teams?

"Almost making the conference finals" is an accomplishment because the series went 7 games?

By that remedial logic

1994 Bulls = 2011 Grizzlies

The Grizzlies "were one of the best teams in the league"

SMH ...

[AlphaWolf24]

Makes perfect sense ... 3 years of championship experience = better players.

You don't understand that concept?


dang ese...you callin people out about being "insecure"...:lol

you trying to defend Jordone every chance you get.....

Fatal merked all Jordan stans in this thread and you in here chirpin away tryin to deflect the fact that Jordan retired and the Bull's were still a great team...


then MJ tryin to to flex and say Pippen couldn't handle the pressure....Naw...it's the other way around.

Without PiP...MJ = Baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.....




Jordan stans...the worst fans in sports.......next

[Samurai Swoosh]

Fatal merked all Jordan stans in this thread
He posted an article? How did he "murk" anyone?

Bulls were a good playoff team still without Jordan. Where did I deny that ...

Far from a "great" team. Great teams win back to back to back championships.

I love how idiotic Kobe stans want to sit here and say w/o Jordan the Bulls won 55 reg. season games, and lost in the 2nd round?

Uhhh, and that makes them "great"?

That's the 2011 Grizzlies

That's the 2008 Hornets

There is a team that loses int he 2nd round every year. Pathetic Kobe fans reaching for higher status.

Jordan team never got swept after having a championship season.

And don't even front like the Lakers w/ Gasol and Odom sans Kobe couldn't at the very least make the 2nd round and lose just like the '94 Bulls. Because they could.

Without Pau Gasol ... Kobe got swept. Brooms.

[iamgine]

Losing in the 2nd round is "one of the best" teams?

"Almost making the conference finals" is an accomplishment because the series went 7 games?

By that remedial logic

1994 Bulls = 2011 Grizzlies

The Grizzlies "were one of the best teams in the league"

SMH ...
Except Grizzlies didn't win 55 games.

And the team that beat them didn't go to the finals.

Actually it's more comparable to 2011 Lakers or 2011 Celtics.

[AlphaWolf24]

Samurai Swoosh]He posted an article? How did he "murk" anyone?

posted an article and pointed out how good the Bull's were without "air"...then like clockwork "55 wins isn't great...great teams win back 2 back"
:roll:


Bulls were a good playoff team still without Jordan. Where did I deny that ...

huh?....they a great team....they lose the quote "best player ever" and replace him with a CBA Player who had'nt played in the NBA for 5 years and come within 1 bad call of the Finals. (didn't they sweep indiana in the reg season :lol ...they def gettin to the Finals)


Far from a "great" team. Great teams win back to back to back championships.

The RunTMC Warriors were Great teams....The early 00's Kings were Great teams..The 90's Knicks were great teams....the 80's Hawks were great teams...the 1994 Bull's were a great team....they faced adversity and excelled....PiP, Grant and BJ were all allstars and shot a Higher FG% without MJ...they came within 1 bad call of the ECFinals.....


I love how idiotic Kobe stans want to sit here and say w/o Jordan the Bulls won 55 reg. season games, and lost in the 2nd round?



Uhhh, and that makes them "great"?
That's the 2011 Grizzlies

That's the 2008 Hornets

There is a team that loses int he 2nd round every year. Pathetic Kobe fans reaching for higher status.

yup..insecure


Jordan team never got swept after having a championship season.

so..he retired because he lost the love of the game.....and man had 5 losing seasons and swept 2 years in a row...


And don't even front like the Lakers w/ Gasol and Odom sans Kobe couldn't at the very least make the 2nd round and lose just like the '94 Bulls. Because they could.

Without Pau Gasol ... Kobe got swept. Brooms.


WTF?....Kobe been to 7 NBA Finals in 10 years....you comparing Gasol and Odom to the stacked teamates of the 90's Bull's:lol

Jordan stans very disgruntled .....


MJ - "I'll show those guy's how it is to be the man........" " Yeah I'm gonna retire right before the season starts...watch these fools win 10 - 20 games"

(55 wins later and Pippen coming in 3rd in MVP voting while 70% of the team shoots better and plays better defense....lose in the 2nd round on a horrible call)


MJ - :wtf: ...."hey guy's.....F this Alabama sh!t..I'm comin back"


(Bull's choke vs Orlando and do worse then the year before)
MJ -

[OldSchoolBBall]

But I also feel 94 humbled jordan too. Im sure he thought they'd be at best a 500 team. And at best get swept out of the first round.

They would have lost in the first round if the Cavs (who were 4-1 vs. Chicago that season) weren't heavily depleted.

[97 bulls]

They would have lost in the first round if the Cavs (who were 4-1 vs. Chicago that season) weren't heavily depleted.
Really? How do you know that? Look at this year. Boston and chicago were 7-1 vs miami this year. How'd that turn out them?

[DJ Leon Smith]

they lose the quote "best player ever" and replace him with a CBA Player who had'nt played in the NBA for 5 years and come within 1 bad call of the Finals. (didn't they sweep indiana in the reg season ...they def gettin to the Finals)

You need to stop saying this. They were never one bad call away from the NBA Finals, they were eliminated in the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals.

You are only allowed to say the Bulls were one missed call from the NBA Finals if in every post you make from here until the end of time you say that the Dallas Mavericks played the Chicago Bulls in the 2011 NBA Finals. (Didn't they sweep Miami in the reg season ...they def gettin to the Finals)

[guy]

You need to stop saying this. They were never one bad call away from the NBA Finals, they were eliminated in the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals.

You are only allowed to say the Bulls were one missed call from the NBA Finals if in every post you make from here until the end of time you say that the Dallas Mavericks played the Chicago Bulls in the 2011 NBA Finals. (Didn't they sweep Miami in the reg season ...they def gettin to the Finals)

They weren't even one bad call away from winning that series. Just cause the Bulls won game 6 doesn't mean they would've definitely won game 6 if the circumstances were different. Its funny how people assume that every team plays every game with the exact same mindset. There's a difference between playing a game 6 on the road down 3-2 and playing a game 6 on the road up 3-2. In fact, the Knicks were down 3-2 on the road the very next series against the Pacers, and they ended up winning.

[guy]

What agenda? The scrutiny he endured is no different than anyone else that in the limelight. And similar to kobe/shaq it sounds like it was was a 2-way street. I alluded to both sides. Not just one. They both needed each other. Pippen and apparently grant to a lesser extent wanted that limelight and jordan gave it to them. But they failed to calculate the scrutiny that comes with the praise. There I've pointed out my agreement with jordans pov.

But when jordan retired and at the start of the seaosn no less, which didn't allow for the bulls to find a suitable replacement. I think he wanted to show and thought that the bulls would stumble on a grand scale. And when they didn't, I do think it vindicated pippen and the bulls as a legit championship team. Not just jordan leading a bunch of scrubs. Which he obviously thought and believed would show. And thus kinda humbled him and made him more of a team player.

It is completely ridiculous to think that Jordan would retire for that long just to prove a point to his teammates. It probably contributed to his disinterest, but its ridiculous to think that was the biggest reason why he retired or why he was disinterested in the first place.

[Samurai Swoosh]

They weren't even one bad call away from winning that series. Just cause the Bulls won game 6 doesn't mean they would've definitely won game 6 if the circumstances were different. Its funny how people assume that every team plays every game with the exact same mindset. There's a difference between playing a game 6 on the road down 3-2 and playing a game 6 on the road up 3-2. In fact, the Knicks were down 3-2 on the road the very next series against the Pacers, and they ended up winning.
Not to mention, if you were truly better than said team ... one bad call from a referee (the call really wasn't as bad as people make it out to be, Pippen does hit Davis a slight second after the ball is released ... which was a dumb move on Pip's part) ... doesn't make an entire series. Pippen jockers and Kobe stans making it sound as if the Bulls got hosed out of a series they were clearly the better team (they weren't) and losing in the 2nd round and all of a sudden they would've been in the NBA Finals? Huh? Am I missing something?

The Bulls this year took the Heat every game down to the wire, but they still lost 4 games to 1. I'm not sitting here and saying the Bulls were on the Heat's level.

[97 bulls]

:violin:
Not to mention, if you were truly better than said team ... one bad call from a referee (the call really wasn't as bad as people make it out to be, Pippen does hit Davis a slight second after the ball is released ... which was a dumb move on Pip's part) ... doesn't make an entire series. Pippen jockers and Kobe stans making it sound as if the Bulls got hosed out of a series they were clearly the better team (they weren't) and losing in the 2nd round and all of a sudden they would've been in the NBA Finals? Huh? Am I missing something?

The Bulls this year took the Heat every game down to the wire, but they still lost 4 games to 1. I'm not sitting here and saying the Bulls were on the Heat's level.
The bulls/heat series isn't the same as that bulls knicks. First, there was bad blood between the knicks and bulls and there was alot of history and that series went sven games. The bulls/ heat series only went 5 with the heat winning 4 in a row. Bad comparison.

And I agree that one call doesn't make a series. But under the circumstances, what the bulls did that year was impressive. Winning 55 games then taking the eventual eastern conference champs to seven games without your jordan was an amzing feat for the bulls. And don't forget those same knicks then took the champs to seven themselves. What did you expect from the bulls that year?

[97 bulls]

It is completely ridiculous to think that Jordan would retire for that long just to prove a point to his teammates. It probably contributed to his disinterest, but its ridiculous to think that was the biggest reason why he retired or why he was disinterested in the first place.
I don't see why. He said that had something to do with it. Either that or his feelings were hurt. And I sincerely doubt the latter.

[guy]

I don't see why. He said that had something to do with it. Either that or his feelings were hurt. And I sincerely doubt the latter.

Something to do with it. Thats a big difference from saying that proving that point was the main reason he retired. Saying that was the biggest reason is ignoring the fact that most of that interview and most of his interviews in general highlights the media looking at him with a microscope as the biggest reason as well as the fact that he felt unchallenged and had nothing to prove and was burnt out. Clearly a number of reasons led him to being disinterested and thus wanting to retire, and those other reasons look like they would play a much bigger part in one of the greatest players ever retiring in the middle of his prime.

[Duncan21formvp]

Another thing that means a lot is the franchises they went to. Kobe went to one of the most successfull franchises in not only NBA History but sports history. Lakers had already won 11 titles and had been to 24 finals before Kobe ever even came to the franchise. Jordan went to a franchise that had done absolutely ****. Had 0 finals appearances and of course no titles and turned that franchise into a dynasty and one of the best in sports history.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Another thing that means a lot is the franchises they went to. Kobe went to one of the most successfull franchises in not only NBA History but sports history. Lakers had already won 11 titles and had been to 24 finals before Kobe ever even came to the franchise. Jordan went to a franchise that had done absolutely ****. Had 0 finals appearances and of course no titles and turned that franchise into a dynasty and one of the best in sports history.
Exactly ... no pedigree of winning before he showed up.

:pimp:

[Blue&Orange]

"Those guys are on the right team, because they're definitely dreaming," he said. "Not only was Dream Team I better, but we could beat them right now. The only player from our squad who wouldn't be able to contribute is Larry Bird. I'm in shape. Maglc's still playing games. Charles [Barkley] might need a little rehab on his back. The rest are still in their prime. If somebody could put it together for charity us against them that's one game I'd come out of retirement to play.



"Why would I play for the Celtics?" he said. "If I were going to come back I'd play for the Bulls not a team I took such pleasure in beating. Why would I play for the Celts? Dominique is going to look strange enough in green."

This is so Lebron like... oh wait :facepalm

[Samurai Swoosh]

This is so Lebron like... oh wait :facepalm
Defines the very difference of the generations and true competitors and warrior leaders from biatches

[Bring-Your-Js]

So funny Jordan's game 3 in the 93 ECF is mentioned frequently by detractors. But rarely ever that he Dropped 54 on them the very next game, as if that's any small feat in the postseason. For all of Kobe's gunslinging 50+ games, he's done that exactly ONE TIME in the postseason. Lebron not 1 single time. Chamberlain averagrd 50 for an entire season and has Half As Many 50-point playoff games as Jordan, and nowhere to be found on 40-point playoff games (West and Baylor 2nd/3rd, spare the #of games argument).

[AlphaWolf24]

:violin:
The bulls/heat series isn't the same as that bulls knicks. First, there was bad blood between the knicks and bulls and there was alot of history and that series went sven games. The bulls/ heat series only went 5 with the heat winning 4 in a row. Bad comparison.

And I agree that one call doesn't make a series. But under the circumstances, what the bulls did that year was impressive. Winning 55 games then taking the eventual eastern conference champs to seven games without your jordan was an amzing feat for the bulls. And don't forget those same knicks then took the champs to seven themselves. What did you expect from the bulls that year?


most experts predicted 30 - 40 wins maybe.....No one expected them to contend for an NBA Title and win 55 games with 3 players playing better and making the allstar game.

Pippen played amazing and proved he could carry a team.....55 wins and teh 2nd round...MJ never came close to that without Pippen.

[Fatal9]

So funny Jordan's game 3 in the 93 ECF is mentioned frequently by detractors. But rarely ever that he Dropped 54 on them the very next game, as if that's any small feat in the postseason. For all of Kobe's gunslinging 50+ games, he's done that exactly ONE TIME in the postseason. Lebron not 1 single time. Chamberlain averagrd 50 for an entire season and has Half As Many 50-point playoff games as Jordan, and nowhere to be found on 40-point playoff games (West and Baylor 2nd/3rd, spare the #of games argument).
I hate on that game, but secretly I know it wasn't a bad game at all (despite the 3/18 shooting). Got to the line a lot and dominated as a playmaker. Pippen did bail him out in that series though. His clutch play was the story of that series, they were not getting past the Knicks if Pippen didn't make huge plays/shots. Grant too made huge clutch defensive plays throughout the playoffs so not sure why he's complaining about them. They stepped up when he needed them that season.

[97 bulls]

So funny Jordan's game 3 in the 93 ECF is mentioned frequently by detractors. But rarely ever that he Dropped 54 on them the very next game, as if that's any small feat in the postseason. For all of Kobe's gunslinging 50+ games, he's done that exactly ONE TIME in the postseason. Lebron not 1 single time. Chamberlain averagrd 50 for an entire season and has Half As Many 50-point playoff games as Jordan, and nowhere to be found on 40-point playoff games (West and Baylor 2nd/3rd, spare the #of games argument).
Jordan is definately the greatets ever. That's why I don't waste my time arguing with people that say otherwise. My gripe is with those that would minimze the bulls as a team to prop jordan. Guys like swoosh, old school, ghengis, angar, jasper, guy. They act as if jordan was winning championships when pippen and grant got there.

Its as if they weren't watching a basketball game. They're watching jordaan shoot.

And jordan should've been happy he didn't have to deal with egos on his team. Or if he did, it wasn't nearly to the point of shaq/kobe. What if pippen said **** it. Imma get mine. And pulls a kobe. No doubt he'd probably hit a few more game winners. But at the expense of what?

And I honestly don't know what jordan was talking about in his reference to carrying the bulls. Obviously he took over alot of games. But he mustve forgotten pippen role in those championships. The man avg damn near a triple doubles in 3 straight finals. And played defense to a level that's rarely seen.

That's why im so glad that 94 happened. Otherwise, people would've never seen pippen as more than an andre iguodala.

And the funny thing is, jordan eventualy acknowledged the role pippen played in those championships. Why can't the jordan fans?

[AlphaWolf24]

Jordan is definately the greatets ever. That's why I don't waste my time arguing with people that say otherwise. My gripe is with those that would minimze the bulls as a team to prop jordan. Guys like swoosh, old school, ghengis, angar, jasper, guy. They act as if jordan was winning championships when pippen and grant got there.

Its as if they weren't watching a basketball game. They're watching jordaan shoot.

And jordan should've been happy he didn't have to deal with egos on his team. Or if he did, it wasn't nearly to the point of shaq/kobe. What if pippen said **** it. Imma get mine. And pulls a kobe. No doubt he'd probably hit a few more game winners. But at the expense of what?

And I honestly don't know what jordan was talking about in his reference to carrying the bulls. Obviously he took over alot of games. But he mustve forgotten pippen role in those championships. The man avg damn near a triple doubles in 3 straight finals. And played defense to a level that's rarely seen.

That's why im so glad that 94 happened. Otherwise, people would've never seen pippen as more than an andre iguodala.

And the funny thing is, jordan eventualy acknowledged the role pippen played in those championships. Why can't the jordan fans?


:applause:

[97 bulls]

Exactly ... no pedigree of winning before he showed up.

:pimp:
See. This is what im sayn swoosh. Until jordan showed up? As if he came there and they started winning championships off the bat? No credit to the other players huh?

[Samurai Swoosh]

I hate on that game, but secretly I know it wasn't a bad game at all (despite the 3/18 shooting). Got to the line a lot and dominated as a playmaker. Pippen did bail him out in that series though. His clutch play was the story of that series, they were not getting past the Knicks if Pippen didn't make huge plays/shots. Grant too made huge clutch defensive plays throughout the playoffs so not sure why he's complaining about them. They stepped up when he needed them that season.
Obviously we needed Pippen. That 1993 Knicks was the best Knick team of all-time post Frazier, Monroe, Reed. Pippen played a huge role ... but don't act like MJ didn't come through with some ridiculous games, when it was clear he was the focus of the defense.

Game 4: 54 points on great defenders Starks and Rivers
Game 5: (the most critical game of the series) 29 / 10 / 14

After game 5 their spirit was clearly broken. There was no way the Bulls were going to lose the next game, regardless which Jordan showed up (distributor Jordan, or GOD MODE Jordan)

[Samurai Swoosh]

See. This is what im sayn swoosh. Until jordan showed up? As if he came there and they started winning championships off the bat? No credit to the other players huh?
What the hell are you talking about kid? No one said they just started winning rings when he got there. What are you so defensive about?

The Bulls were a bottom of the barrell franchise pre-Jordan. Do you even know the stuff you're talking about? Jordan made them a viable and relevant franchise. He established the winning pedigree, and waas enhanced FURTHER along with the development of Pippen and Grant.

:facepalm

So touchy, you are ... clearly the Bulls weren't ish till MJ came along.

Even when they had Norm Van Lier and Jerry Sloan they weren't winning anything, brew

[Fatal9]

After game 5 their spirit was clearly broken. There was no way the Bulls were going to lose the next game, regardless which Jordan showed up (distributor Jordan, or GOD MODE Jordan)
yea but, Jordan = 0/7 in fourth quarter of game 6 (they were facing game 7 on road if they lost, they already dropped two in NY, and barely escaped on last possession in game 5), while Pippen hit the big shots to send the Bulls to the finals. Come on brah, there was a big possibility they could lose. Pretty sure he made a huge three or two in game 4 I think it was? Then two blocks on Smith on the final possession in game 5? Just overall played really well in fourth quarters.

[Samurai Swoosh]

yea but, Jordan = 0/7 in fourth quarter of game 6 (they were facing game 7 on road if they lost, they already dropped two in NY, and barely escaped on last possession in game 5), while Pippen hit the big shots to send the Bulls to the finals. Come on brah, there was a big possibility they could lose. Pretty sure he made a huge three or two in game 4 I think it was? Then two blocks on Smith on the final possession in game 5? Just overall played really well in fourth quarters.
I said Pippen was critical. We needed both to show up in order for us to win that series. A series we had to fight tooth and nail to come back from 2 games down. My favorite playoff series of all-time, by the way. But are you saying Jordan didn't do the heavy lifting in the two deciding games of the series?

Game 4 with his 54 points?
Game 5 with his 29 / 10 / 14 triple double on the road?

Those were the momentum changing games of the series. So Jordan shot bad in the 4th quarter? He finally had someone step up and help carry the load in the final stretch. I'm not going to sit here and slobber Pippen. He should've always been doing that ... normally it was MJ having to do the heavy lifting in those stretches.

[Bring-Your-Js]

I said Pippen was critical. We needed both to show up in order for us to win that series. A series we had to fight tooth and nail to come back from 2 games down. My favorite playoff series of all-time, by the way. But are you saying Jordan didn't do the heavy lifting in the two deciding games of the series?

Game 4 with his 54 points?
Game 5 with his 29 / 10 / 14 triple double on the road?

Those were the momentum changing games of the series. So Jordan shot bad in the 4th quarter? He finally had someone step up and help carry the load in the final stretch. I'm not going to sit here and slobber Pippen. He should've always been doing that ... normally it was MJ having to do the heavy lifting in those stretches.

This. :applause:

WCF was spectacular that year also. Followed by my favorite Finals of the Bulls dynasty.

[Samurai Swoosh]

This. :applause:

WCF was spectacular that year also. Followed by my favorite Finals of the Bulls dynasty.
Mine too. But that 1993 New York series ... you have no idea, brew.

I had a teammate on my baseball team who had just moved from New York.

As per usual with New Yorkers, obnoxious as hell. But me and the kid are buddies. And his dad and my dad become cool. And after our baseball games him and his dad would come over and watch the games. We practically watched the whole series with them.

We were both talking such epic ish to one another. Fathers and sons alike. And the day MJ rained in 54. It was glorious. I was doing the happy dance all night rubbing it in that Jordan was spanking the hell out of them.

:oldlol:

But that game 5 ... was literally the most intense pro game I've ever watched.

[Jacks3]

dang ese...you callin people out about being "insecure"...:lol

you trying to defend Jordone every chance you get.....

Fatal merked all Jordan stans in this thread and you in here chirpin away tryin to deflect the fact that Jordan retired and the Bull's were still a great team...


then MJ tryin to to flex and say Pippen couldn't handle the pressure....Naw...it's the other way around.

Without PiP...MJ = Baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.....

This.

Jordan fans--truly the scum of the earth.

[Samurai Swoosh]

This.

Jordan fans--truly the scum of the earth.
Then that is a large majority of the planet.

:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Not really.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Not really.
I would venture to say, quite easily ... MJ is the most popular basketball player of all-time. Hell, he's one of the most iconic well known athletes of all-time. Jordan, Ali, Babe Ruth, Pele ... he's in ELITE category. You mad?

:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

lol @ putting Jordan up there with those guys when he isn't even the best in his own sport. :roll:

Jordan=overrated trash.

You mad?

[Bring-Your-Js]

Mine too. But that 1993 New York series ... you have no idea, brew.

I had a teammate on my baseball team who had just moved from New York.

As per usual with New Yorkers, obnoxious as hell. But me and the kid are buddies. And his dad and my dad become cool. And after our baseball games him and his dad would come over and watch the games. We practically watched the whole series with them.

We were both talking such epic ish to one another. Fathers and sons alike. And the day MJ rained in 54. It was glorious. I was doing the happy dance all night rubbing it in that Jordan was spanking the hell out of them.

:oldlol:

But that game 5 ... was literally the most intense pro game I've ever watched.

Awesome stuff. :cheers:

Bulls/Knicks was always FIRE. Some of the most entertaining basketball of all-time. 1992 ECSF set the stage beautifully. For New York to push it 7, then jump out to a 2-0 lead in the CF the following year... Bulls to comeback, Jordan dropping 54... Beat Bulls in 94 w/o Jordan, he comes back in '95 and drops the double nickel in the Garden (another extremely close game)...great drama.

[Samurai Swoosh]

lol @ putting Jordan up there with those guys when he isn't even the best in his own sport. :roll:

Jordan=overrated trash.
Whatever you have to tell yourself.

:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

You keep deluding yourself.

:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

lol @ putting Jordan up there with those guys when he isn't even the best in his own sport. :roll:

Jordan=overrated trash.

You mad?
I always try to stay away from this kind off stuff. But im intrigued. What could jordan have done for you to consider him the greatest? I mean, I hear people say he's not the best, but never overrated.

[Jacks3]

I always try to stay away from this kind off stuff. But im intrigued. What could jordan have done for you to consider him the greatest? I mean, I hear people say he's not the best, but never overrated.
He's overrated because many consider him the undisputed GOAT when in reality Kareem/Wilt/Bird/Magic all have legitimate cases. But you try telling that to his moronic fans and they'll just laugh. :facepalm

Anyway, I don't consider Jordan the greatest, because at his peak he didn't have the two-way impact of the best bigs ever (Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem). Hell, how can you be the G.O.A.T when you're not even top 5 in terms of peak play. :facepalm

But the media has brainwashed everyone into believing he's some sort of God...sadly.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He's overrated because many consider him the undisputed GOAT when in reality Kareem/Wilt/Bird/Magic all have legitimate cases. But you try telling that to his moronic fans and they'll just laugh. :facepalm


No.

[97 bulls]

He's overrated because many consider him the undisputed GOAT when in reality Kareem/Wilt/Bird/Magic all have legitimate cases. But you try telling that to his moronic fans and they'll just laugh. :facepalm

Anyway, I don't consider Jordan the greatest, because at his peak he didn't have the two-way impact of the best bigs ever (Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem). Hell, how can you be the G.O.A.T when you're not even top 5 in terms of peak play. :facepalm

But the media has brainwashed everyone into believing he's some sort of God...sadly.
So if someone feels kareem is the greatest, does that make him overrated? Or magic? Or in your case kobe?

[Jacks3]

So if someone feels kareem is the greatest, does that make him overrated? Or magic? Or in your case kobe?
Kobe? What?

Didn't read. :facepalm

[Jacks3]

No.
Oh, yes.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oh, yes.

Wilt was the king of "Wilting" under pressure. His playoff scoring was almost 8 ppg lower than his regular season scoring and on worse efficiency, too. His 1968 and 1969 choke jobs are probably the worst ever for a top 10 player. He led a team to a 31-49 record while completely healthy in his prime and the '64-'65 Warriors were 11-33 before they traded him. What other top 10 player was leading teams to records like that in their prime without being injured? He had unbelievably loaded teams from '67-'73 and won a total of 2 rings those years, the only 2 in his career, and that was with teams capable of winning 50+ games without him. Arguably the most overrated player ever rivaled by only Oscar.

As far as Magic? You emphasized two way impact before, well, Magic was easily the worst defender of any top 10 player and the 2nd or 3rd worst scorer of the top 10. He was great from '87-'90(but even so, quite a few had better peaks), however other than those years he wasn't playing at a top 10 level, and it's debatable whether he was ever the best player in the league.

[Jacks3]

Wilt still had the better peak, and Magic was the offensive G.O.A.T. His D isn't that important because he was a perimeter player. Those guys aren't making that much difference either way. It's not like he was a complete liability, and those Laker teams were always good on D.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wilt still had the better peak, and Magic was the offensive G.O.A.T. His D isn't that important because he was a perimeter player. Those guys aren't making that much difference either way. It's not like he was a complete liability, and those Laker teams were always good on D.

Peak is debatable, but if we're ranking players by peak only then Lebron is top 10 himself. If Magic's defense wasn't that important because he was a perimeter player then why make the point about Jordan not being GOAT because his two way impact couldn't match the great big men?

And offensive GOAT? I don't know about that. For the first half of the 80's, he really relied on transition opportunities until he developed a reliable mid-range shot, and later, a post game.

[Poochymama]

No.

Even Bird doesn't really have that much of a case. Maybe peak vs peak (even then I'd take Jordan because of his defense), but overall, Jordan is quite clearly ahead of Bird.

IMO Kareem and Russell are the only two with legitimate arguments over Jordan.