'93 Suns/'95 Rockets/'96 Sonics/'97 Jazz

[CJ Mustard]

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/barkley_mvp_190.JPG

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/hakeem_olajuwon_clyde_drexler.jpg

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/gary_payton_shawn_kemp.jpg

http://oi53.tinypic.com/14kds43.jpg

Rank these teams

[QuebecBaller]

Suns
Sonics
Jazz
Rockets

[Sarcastic]

Very tough. I would probably put the Suns at 1, Sonics at 2, Jazz at 3, and Rockets at 4.

Actually 2, 3, and 4 is almost a toss up to me. Suns were probably the best team of those that I saw play.

[BlackJoker23]

the 04 twolves with kg.

[CJ Mustard]

^ :hammerhead:

[L.Kizzle]

Very tough. I would probably put the Suns at 1, Sonics at 2, Jazz at 3, and Rockets at 4.

Actually 2, 3, and 4 is almost a toss up to me. Suns were probably the best team of those that I saw play.
And the Rockets would still end up winning.

95 Suns (59 games won) "were better" than the Rockets, as were the 95 Jazz (60 wins), 95 Spurs (62 wins) and 95 Magic (57.)

These 95 Rockets won 47 games, compared to the 62 by the 93 Suns, and 64 each by the Jazz and Sonics.

[Sarcastic]

And the Rockets would still end up winning.

95 Suns (59 games won) "were better" than the Rockets, as were the 95 Jazz (60 wins), 95 Spurs (62 wins) and 95 Magic (57.)

These 95 Rockets won 47 games, compared to the 62 by the 93 Suns, and 64 each by the Jazz and Sonics.

The Rockets were great no doubt, but they are the only team here that didn't have to go against Jordan. All the other teams shred through the Western Conference too then ran into the Bulls and were stopped short.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Barkley was injured and they couldn't close Houston out, despite a pair of 20+ rebound efforts and a 34/14 Game 6.

93 Suns only have 1 of the three best players when matched against any of those: Keem/Drex, Glove/Kemp, Malone/Stockton.... Barkley and... Kevin Johnson?

[Bring-Your-Js]

Barkley had to go ape shit for the Suns to make it out of those some rounds. 36/12 (20 in the fourth) in pivotal Game 5 vs SA followed by 28/21 w/ game winner in 6... WCF GM5: 43/15/10/71%. GM7: 44/24/1/60%

[Sarcastic]

Barkley was injured and they couldn't close Houston out, despite a pair of 20+ rebound efforts and a 34/14 Game 6.

93 Suns only have 1 of the three best players when matched against any of those: Keem/Drex, Glove/Kemp, Malone/Stockton.... Barkley and... Kevin Johnson?

Kevin Johnson was amazing during that period. Suns also have the best third option of those teams in Dan Majerle. Also MVP Barkley was in my opinion just as good if not better than Olajuwon. Only difference is Dream didn't have to play Jordan, so he got his ring.

[NugzHeat3]

Barkley was injured and they couldn't close Houston out, despite a pair of 20+ rebound efforts and a 34/14 Game 6.

93 Suns only have 1 of the three best players when matched against any of those: Keem/Drex, Glove/Kemp, Malone/Stockton.... Barkley and... Kevin Johnson?

They should've closed Houston out in game 5 if Barkley didn't pull a Nick Anderson at the line.

[az00m]

And the Rockets would still end up winning.

95 Suns (59 games won) "were better" than the Rockets, as were the 95 Jazz (60 wins), 95 Spurs (62 wins) and 95 Magic (57.)

These 95 Rockets won 47 games, compared to the 62 by the 93 Suns, and 64 each by the Jazz and Sonics.

THey made a great midseason trade, their record didnt matter. If they didnt trade for clyde they wouldnt of even made the playoffs haha.

[NugzHeat3]

Kevin Johnson was amazing during that period. Suns also have the best third option of those teams in Dan Majerle. Also MVP Barkley was in my opinion just as good if not better than Olajuwon. Only difference is Dream didn't have to play Jordan, so he got his ring.
Not even close.

Hakeem was a more dominant 2 way player regardless of who faced Jordan or not. Jordan also said his Bulls "feared" Hakeem's Rockets. So make of that what you will....

Hell, nobody remembers the refs gifting the Suns game 5 against the Lakers on a horrible call.

The Sonics should've gone to the finals in 1993.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Kevin Johnson was amazing during that period. Suns also have the best third option of those teams in Dan Majerle. Also MVP Barkley was in my opinion just as good if not better than Olajuwon.Only difference is Dream didn't have to play Jordan, so he got his ring.

:D

I know.

[NugzHeat3]

THey made a great midseason trade, their record didnt matter. If they didnt trade for clyde they wouldnt of even made the playoffs haha.
No.

They did worse after they traded for Drexler. Check their record before the all star break and after.

They just pulled a insane run out of their ass. I'll never know how the hell they did it. That team wasn't any good and they'll lose to most championship teams but that was ****ing insane run.

I wish the Heat had even a tenth of the composure and clutch play that team did.

[L.Kizzle]

No.

They did worse after they traded for Drexler. Check their record before the all star break and after.

They just pulled a insane run out of their ass. I'll never know how the hell they did it. That team wasn't any good and they'll lose to most championship teams but that was ****ing insane run.

I wish the Heat had even a tenth of the composure and clutch play that team did.
Drexler kept that team above water after the All-Star break/trade. Hakeem and Mario Elie got injured and Vernon Maxwell quit on the team after Drexler took his starting spot.

[L.Kizzle]

Barkley was injured and they couldn't close Houston out, despite a pair of 20+ rebound efforts and a 34/14 Game 6.

93 Suns only have 1 of the three best players when matched against any of those: Keem/Drex, Glove/Kemp, Malone/Stockton.... Barkley and... Kevin Johnson?
KJ is a top 45 player all-time according to ISH, way above Kemp and some say better than Stockton and Payton.

[NugzHeat3]

Drexler kept that team above water after the All-Star break/trade. Hakeem and Mario Elie got injured and Vernon Maxwell quit on the team after Drexler took his starting spot.

The guy said they don't make the playoffs if they don't trade for Drexler. I don't see it.

Before Drexler ever played a game, they were 30-17. With him, they went 17-18.

Elie only missed one game that year. Hakeem missed 9 games in that stretch and they went 3-6 in those games.

They are still making the playoffs.

Like I said, a average team that just pulled a unreal run out of their ass.

[L.Kizzle]

The guy said they don't make the playoffs if they don't trade for Drexler. I don't see it.

Before Drexler ever played a game, they were 30-17. With him, they went 17-18.

Elie only missed one game that year. Hakeem missed 9 games in that stretch and they went 3-6 in those games.

They are still making the playoffs.

Like I said, a average team that just pulled a unreal run out of their ass.
I do believe they don't make the playoffs without the trade. Don't forget Vernon Maxwell quitting.

[NugzHeat3]

I do believe they don't make the playoffs without the trade. Don't forget Vernon Maxwell quitting.

Maxwell quit cause Drexler got his spot and he wasn't getting minutes. If trade doesn't happen, he isn't quitting. Common sense.

They still have Thorpe and Hakeem only missed 9 games.

They'll easily make the playoffs. Don't kid yourself.

[L.Kizzle]

Maxwell quit cause Drexler got his spot and he wasn't getting minutes. If trade doesn't happen, he isn't quitting. Common sense.

They still have Thorpe and Hakeem only missed 9 games.

They'll easily make the playoffs. Don't kid yourself.
Maxwell was already a head case, him losing minutes to a proven hall of famer is just crazy to quit over. Everyone's numbers were down across the board except for Cassell.

I don't even remember why the trade happened. Also I could have sworn Elie missed more than 1 game. I thought he broke his wrist after a failed dunk attempt, my mistake.

[NugzHeat3]

Maxwell was already a head case, him losing minutes to a proven hall of famer is just crazy to quit over. Everyone's numbers were down across the board except for Cassell.

I don't even remember why the trade happened. Also I could have sworn Elie missed more than 1 game. I thought he broke his wrist after a failed dunk attempt, my mistake.
I heard the trade happened because Otis was causing problems.

I heard he wanted more shot attempts or something like that. Otis was important to their rebounding and defense so I don't why they did it.

Elie and Horry hated that trade at first.

The 95 Rockets are probably the only defending champs to break up their core and still repeat. Has that ever happened? I can't remember.

[ChrisKreager]

No.

They did worse after they traded for Drexler. Check their record before the all star break and after.

They just pulled a insane run out of their ass. I'll never know how the hell they did it. That team wasn't any good and they'll lose to most championship teams but that was ****ing insane run.

I wish the Heat had even a tenth of the composure and clutch play that team did.

I always thought that second Rockets title winning team ws one that seemed to flirt with disaster all the time and manage to avoid going off the cliff.

They played with fire, but didn't get burned. Hakeem was their fire extenguisher.

[Round Mound]

:D

I know.

1988-93 Barkley was as good as 94 and 95 Hakeem.

KJ played 49 games the Suns had a higher winning% without him.

Infact had KJ not played and the Suns had a pure PG that creates for others then they would have had a higher chance than playing with a Me 1st Shoot PG.

[Xsatyr]

1988-93 Barkley was as good as 94 and 95 Hakeem.

KJ played 49 games the Suns had a higher winning% without him.

Infact had KJ not played and the Suns had a pure PG that creates for others then they would have had a higher chance than playing with a Me 1st Shoot PG.

I just puked.

[JohnnySic]

The Sonics should've gone to the finals in 1993.
YES.

The Sonics peaked in '93 and '94. Sadly, no one remembers those teams, instead remembering the inferior '96 team that did in fact make the finals in against lesser competition.

[JohnnySic]

1988-93 Barkley was as good as 94 and 95 Hakeem.
......

[Mrofir]

93 barkley was the best player on any of these teams..


I love KJ and totally disagree with all the hate.


But the Suns as a team achieved what they did due primarily to Barkley's greatness. He was trying (situation he was in) to MJ a team to a championship while MJ was playing, and he came closer than anyone.

96 sonics just stiffened up in the finals and couldn't get their bearings in time to compete...

If I take the best player away from each of these teams it's

Sonics minus Kemp
Rockets minus Hakeem (WTF I dunno now.)
Jazz minus Malone
Suns minus Barkley


with Barkley, they came closer than any of these teams

[magnax1]

Suns
Jazz
Sonics
Rockets
Suns were pretty damn stacked offensively, Jazz were probably the most well rounded team, and Sonics and Rockets can battle for last place...

[Dream34]

There's no way in hell that 1988-1993 Barkley was good as 93-95 Hakeem. Barkley doesn't come relatively close to having the defensive impact of perhaps the GOAT shotblocker.
Offensively? That's alittle more debatable. However, I would take Dream's 94 and 95 postseasons over any of Barkley's runs. Additionally, 93-96 Dream- other than Drexler- had no other teammate that was as good as offensively as KJ, Majerle, Dumas, Ainge, Ceballos, and Chambers. Dream didn't have the opportunity to play on a team that made the second round without him the prior year. I don't care about Lang and Hornacek either lol.

As for this list, I think you can make a really strong argument for the 96 Sonics as the best team. They won 64 games. That half-court trap defense they ran was brutal. They could swarm any post presence (as I should know) and harass guards. Kemp was also underrated as a defender in the pain; when he focused, he was quite good. Of course, you had guys like Payton, McMillan, Askew, and Hawkins swarming the ball-handler and still have the speed to return back to harass the open shooter. That defense was so good and quick that some opponents actually questioned its legality and claimed that it was like a "zone". Offensively, they had the dynamic duo in Payton and Kemp; plus, they could shoot the ball like crazy. That team had like 7 legit outside threats.. set playoff records.. Too bad, they had to go against the GOAT and a top three/four team of all time in the 96' Bulls in the finals lol

[gengiskhan]

1993 Suns: Very Balanced. MVP. Solid Bench. Good chemistry. Could score at will. Average Defensively.

1995 Rockets: Weird Balance. Good chemistry. Solid Bench. Runner up DPOY. unpredictable at times . Plays better under extreme pressure. Great leadership from Phi slamma Jama twins.

1996 Sonics: Decent Balance. Great chemistry. Runner up MVP. DPOY. played great half court D. Could not score at will.

1997 Jazz: Very Balanced. MVP. Runner up DPOY. very good chemistry. Could score at will. Great under pressure. Solid perimeter Defense.

Its tough between 1 & 2 so......

1. 1993 Suns = 1997 Jazz

2. 1996 Sonics

3. 1995 Rockets

[Sarcastic]

There's no way in hell that 1988-1993 Barkley was good as 93-95 Hakeem. Barkley doesn't come relatively close to having the defensive impact of perhaps the GOAT shotblocker.
Offensively? That's alittle more debatable. However, I would take Dream's 94 and 95 postseasons over any of Barkley's runs. Additionally, 93-96 Dream- other than Drexler- had no other teammate that was as good as offensively as KJ, Majerle, Dumas, Ainge, Ceballos, and Chambers. Dream didn't have the opportunity to play on a team that made the second round without him the prior year. I don't care about Lang and Hornacek either lol.

As for this list, I think you can make a really strong argument for the 96 Sonics as the best team. They won 64 games. That half-court trap defense they ran was brutal. They could swarm any post presence (as I should know) and harass guards. Kemp was also underrated as a defender in the pain; when he focused, he was quite good. Of course, you had guys like Payton, McMillan, Askew, and Hawkins swarming the ball-handler and still have the speed to return back to harass the open shooter. That defense was so good and quick that some opponents actually questioned its legality and claimed that it was like a "zone". Offensively, they had the dynamic duo in Payton and Kemp; plus, they could shoot the ball like crazy. That team had like 7 legit outside threats.. set playoff records.. Too bad, they had to go against the GOAT and a top three/four team of all time in the 96' Bulls in the finals lol

:facepalm
Are you referring to 1980-present?

Shot blocking:
Wilt Chamberlain >>> Hakeem

[cdbleb]

Sonics
Suns
Jazz
Rockets

[Dream34]

Well, I did say "perhaps". I never saw Wilt play live because I- to put it bluntly- was not old enough to see the 60's and 70's. I know he did challenge Kareem and his skyhook in his twilight years so I'm not gonna deny that he's a great shotblocker. If I criticize Wilt, it's gonna be more so the about how the pace inflated his stats and his "wilting" in the playoffs. That's for another time though.. regardless, I still think Olajuwon is the best shot-blocker I have seen live.

[Micku]

Barkley was injured and they couldn't close Houston out, despite a pair of 20+ rebound efforts and a 34/14 Game 6.

93 Suns only have 1 of the three best players when matched against any of those: Keem/Drex, Glove/Kemp, Malone/Stockton.... Barkley and... Kevin Johnson?

Kevin Johnson kicked ass. Very underrated pg.

[Mrofir]

Kevin Johnson kicked ass. Very underrated pg.

he did and was and your avy is fantastic but really he's not in the same tier as stockton\payton ultimately which is why i argue barkley is not to be forgotten in the top 20 pantheon or higher

[Keith]

1. http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/hakeem_olajuwon_clyde_drexler.jpg

The only team you listed that has a good center my personal favorite The Dream.

2.http://oi53.tinypic.com/14kds43.jpg

Good team they could have won a championship if Michael Jordan wasn't born.

3. http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/gary_payton_shawn_kemp.jpg

I don't remember seeing them together in their prime but Glove was great and Kemp was a beast. Add Detlef that must have been a fun team to watch.

4. http://www.nba.com/media/suns/barkley_mvp_190.JPG

Didn't care for them. If they didn't play the Bulls they would have lost to another EC team.

[ShaqAttack3234]

1995 Rockets were the best.

Their regular season record doesn't do them justice. They got Drexler late in the season and Hakeem missed some time around then so they didn't have that much time to gel, but Hakeem played at a level comparable to anyone in NBA history during that playoff run, Clyde was rejuvanated and capable of big games himself providing an excellent sidekick, Horry was athletic and versatile back then, Smith and Cassell gave them a good duo at PG and Elie played well too. Their role players were clutch as well. It's no fluke that they beat a 60 win team, a 59 win team, a 62 win team and a 57 win team.

With Dream dominating in the post and with his mid-range game as well as his passing, Houston's 3 point shooting and Clyde's all around game giving them the necessary second scorer and perimeter threat, it was just a matter of them playing to their potential. And of course, Dream playing at such a historically great level gives them an advantage over most teams as well.


1988-93 Barkley was as good as 94 and 95 Hakeem.

:roll:

[Sarcastic]

1995 Rockets were the best.

Their regular season record doesn't do them justice. They got Drexler late in the season and Hakeem missed some time around then so they didn't have that much time to gel, but Hakeem played at a level comparable to anyone in NBA history during that playoff run, Clyde was rejuvanated and capable of big games himself providing an excellent sidekick, Horry was athletic and versatile back then, Smith and Cassell gave them a good duo at PG and Elie played well too. Their role players were clutch as well. It's no fluke that they beat a 60 win team, a 59 win team, a 62 win team and a 57 win team.

With Dream dominating in the post and with his mid-range game as well as his passing, Houston's 3 point shooting and Clyde's all around game giving them the necessary second scorer and perimeter threat, it was just a matter of them playing to their potential. And of course, Dream playing at such a historically great level gives them an advantage over most teams as well.



:roll:

Not really surprised you picked the team that beat Shaq.

[Dream34]

The craziest thing is that we didn't have a true power forward during the whole time. Thorpe was obviously traded; our backup in Herrera got injured. The 1995 Rockets used scrubs like Chilcutt (who would just roam outside for long threes), Jones (a 42 year old guy), Brown (plays hard but has no offensive game and is only 6'6), and eventually Horry who was more of a three in those days. Just ridiculous.
That series against the Jazz was just crazy.. Dream tore them up even though he was still recovering from his iron-deficiency anemia. Maxwell- also had the anemia problem-went AWOL after missing the potential game-winner in the opener of that series too, but they still managed to pull that out. The whole Suns series and coming back from shutdown.. they almost lost that series too. Wesley Person-- a hell of a shooter-- had a wide open shot from behind the arc.. was halfway in. They went 11-2 to finish the 95 postseason- pretty impressive imo.

[Keith]

Bulls vs. Rockets would have been interesting. I think Houston would have won but we'll never know..
Hakeem was unstoppable inside and blocked up the middle.

[xxxSuperStar]

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/barkley_mvp_190.JPG

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/hakeem_olajuwon_clyde_drexler.jpg

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/gary_payton_shawn_kemp.jpg

http://oi53.tinypic.com/14kds43.jpg

Rank these teams

Rockets (purely "The Dream." Nobody on the other teams could stop him, he could stop the other teams' bigs easily..and then add in The Glide)

Jazz (Best 1-2 Combo, great in finals with slow-down or transition)

Sonics (great for that year. GP means all)

Suns (Barkley isn't a winner. Period--too ball dominant. Too much short against the others' bigs etc. For as good as he was, he could be exposed, which he always was)

[Samurai Swoosh]

1 - 1993 Suns
2 - 1996 Sonics
3 - 1997 Jazz
4 - 1995 Rockets

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not really surprised you picked the team that beat Shaq.

What does that have to do with anything? They're also the only team on this list that won a title, they also have easily the best player of any of these teams, arguably the best sidekick of any of these teams and the best inside/outside balance. Not to mention that they seemed more clutch.

[Rose]

I'm not exactly sure how you chose the Rockets. IMO

Sonics
Suns(still wish Chuck hadn't gotten lazy after 94)
Jazz
Rockets

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm not exactly sure how you chose the Rockets. IMO

Just summed it up. Plus never underestimate the heart of a champion and Dream was one bad mother****er.

Those Utah teams didn't really have a 2nd scorer, or championsip-caliber second scorer, and that always put an amount of pressure on Malone that I don't think he could handle in the playoffs.

The Suns didn't have good size and they weren't a great defensive team, plus KJ wasn't really KJ that year due to injuries.

The Rockets beat similar Utah and Phoenix teams back to back years in 1994 and 1995.

The Sonics did have the defense, and an excellent duo(though I don't really like Payton or Kemp as my number 1 option on a championship team) and provided match up problems for Houston, though Dream nearly carried his team past Seattle in '93(though Payton and Kemp were better in
'96).

[Samurai Swoosh]

The 1995 Rockets were not the best team out of these mentioned.

:oldlol:

'93 Suns and '96 Sonics specifically are much better.

[Rose]

Just summed it up. Plus never underestimate the heart of a champion and Dream was one bad mother****er.

Those Utah teams didn't really have a 2nd scorer, or championsip-caliber second scorer, and that always put an amount of pressure on Malone that I don't think he could handle in the playoffs.

The Suns didn't have good size and they weren't a great defensive team, plus KJ wasn't really KJ that year due to injuries.

The Rockets beat similar Utah and Phoenix teams back to back years in 1994 and 1995.

The Sonics did have the defense, and an excellent duo(though I don't really like Payton or Kemp as my number 1 option on a championship team) and provided match up problems for Houston, though Dream nearly carried his team past Seattle in '93(though Payton and Kemp were better in
'96).
I think that no matter what those Sonics are the best team because of that defense. And in a game of 93 suns vs 95 rockets they win obviously because of the size advantage in Hakeem, but I just feel like those Suns are better. Plus they're highly entertaining to watch.:lol

And then I think the bottom two you can decide between the Rockets and Jazz. I think either one's acceptable as the worst because the Jazz didn't have a truly good clutch player. Don't get me wrong Stockton's fine and all. But you knew what he was going to do.

With the Rockets I just feel they were deeper and more clutch with Cassell and specifically Horry. So I can see the Rockets being the third, and maybe arguably the second best. But I just can't see them being the best. And I'm a HUUUUGE Hakeem fan.

[Samurai Swoosh]

How was KJ not "KJ" in 1993?

Dude averaged 16 ppg and 8 apg, was one of the best PGs in the league, and was the QB of a championship caliber team?

[Rose]

How was KJ not "KJ" in 1993?

Dude averaged 16 ppg and 8 apg, was one of the best PGs in the league, and was the QB of a championship caliber team?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html

Games missed?

And those were both below his average.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How was KJ not "KJ" in 1993?

Dude averaged 16 ppg and 8 apg, was one of the best PGs in the league, and was the QB of a championship caliber team?

16/8? Every other year from '89-'94 he was pretty much a 20/10 player.

[magnax1]

Just summed it up. Plus never underestimate the heart of a champion and Dream was one bad mother****er.

Those Utah teams didn't really have a 2nd scorer, or championsip-caliber second scorer, and that always put an amount of pressure on Malone that I don't think he could handle in the playoffs.

The Suns didn't have good size and they weren't a great defensive team, plus KJ wasn't really KJ that year due to injuries.

The Rockets beat similar Utah and Phoenix teams back to back years in 1994 and 1995.

The Sonics did have the defense, and an excellent duo(though I don't really like Payton or Kemp as my number 1 option on a championship team) and provided match up problems for Houston, though Dream nearly carried his team past Seattle in '93(though Payton and Kemp were better in
'96).
Utah made some really really big improvements from 95 to 97. Karl Malone Antoine Carr, and James Donaldson were splitting center minutes three way in that series, and that's a huge reason why they lost. Really I don't see how you can say Houston is better then 97 Utah when they're ever so slightly better then 95 Utah, and mostly because of massive matchup problems. Both Hakeem and Drexler just murdered Utah, and with a real center, and one of the best defenders in Bryon Russell, that wouldn't have happened. Well Hakeem would've, but not as badly as against Antoine Carr and Donaldson.

[Samurai Swoosh]

16/8? Every other year from '89-'94 he was pretty much a 20/10 player.
In the playoffs he was 18 / 8 ... that's still elite.

C'mon bro ... the 1995 Rockets aren't better than the 1993 Suns and 1996 Sonics.

They have a case against 1997 Jazz.

[xxxSuperStar]

The 1995 Rockets were not the best team out of these mentioned.

:oldlol:

'93 Suns and '96 Sonics specifically are much better.

The Rockets strength was every other teams' weakness. Again, Dream and Drexler are cause match-up nightmares against every other team.

They are the only team that causes disruption...hence their two titles in the decade, which is two more than any of the other teams combined.

Disruption means championships. Hakeem can't be guarded by any of the other team...any of the other team can be guarded (and DOMINATED) by Rockets/Hakeem.

GP/Kemp, Stockton/Malone, KJ/Barkley all match-up (it's a toss-up)...PG vs. PF.

Hakeem/Glide are the only one that doesn't fit and that causes completely different gameplans...SG/C that have size, scoring and defense.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The Rockets strength was every other teams' weakness. Again, Dream and Drexler are cause match-up nightmares against every other team.
1995 Drexler?

No.

Suns and Sonics have advantages at guard and wing positions.

Drexler isn't busting a 1996 GP's ass.

Kenny Smith / Sam Cassell aren't holding KJ down.

[ShaqAttack3234]

In the playoffs he was 18 / 8 ... that's still elite.

C'mon bro ... the 1995 Rockets aren't better than the 1993 Suns and 1996 Sonics.

They have a case against 1997 Jazz.

Rockets had these guys in the playoffs.

Dream- 33/10/5/3, 53 FG%, 56 TS%
Clyde- 21/7/5, 48 FG%, 59 TS%
Horry- 13/7/4, 45 FG%, 59 TS%
Cassell- 11/2/4, 45 FG%, 59 TS%
Smith- 11/2/5, 44 FG%, 61 TS%
Elie- 9/3/3, 50 FG%, 64 TS%

Come on man, with Dream playing at that level outplaying Shaq, absolutely destroying peak David Robinson and drawing so much attention inside to go along with their prolific 3 point shooting.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Come on man, with Dream playing at that level outplaying Shaq, absolutely destroying peak David Robinson and drawing so much attention inside to go along with their prolific 3 point shooting.
Magic's exterior defense isn't what the Sonics were ... the Sonics would limit those numbers a lot. They would let Hakeem do his thing, but outside of him ... it would get lonely for them. And I just feel the 1993 Suns have more fire power all around.

[xxxSuperStar]

1995 Drexler?

No.

Suns and Sonics have advantages at guard and wing positions.

Drexler isn't busting a 1996 GP's ass.

Kenny Smith / Sam Cassell aren't holding KJ down.

You're being silly.

Who is guarding Hakeem again? The guy who causes triple teams to kick out to Horry, Smith, Cassell, Elie etc.

I'm fine with anyone on the Rockets guarding the Sonics/Suns players (they were just tougher and grittier...you know this).

KJ was great (soft) as was Barkley.

Give me an answer for Hakeem. I'll give you a much better answer for any of the players on the other teams (staring with Thorpe, Elie, Cassel, etc.)

[Dream34]

I have been a Rockets fan since Dream's Etonic days, and I just can't put them above the 96 Sonics. That swarming defense was just so tough; unfortunately, it gets overshadowed by the stiffing defense of 96 Bulls and their tandem of Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman.

93 Suns though? I'll take my Rockets over those guys. Better first option, better defense (Dream anchoring the paint versus that fatass Oliver Miller?), more clutch, and KJ was a little off so Drexler was the better second option. Plus, Houston took out 94 and 95 Suns teams that were near the same level of the 1993 team.

[Dream34]

From the beggining of the 1995 season to the end of their second round match-up in 1996, the Sonics rattled off TWELVE consecutive wins against the Rockets...

[xxxSuperStar]

1995 Drexler?

No.

Suns and Sonics have advantages at guard and wing positions.

Drexler isn't busting a 1996 GP's ass.

Kenny Smith / Sam Cassell aren't holding KJ down.

And take another look at 1995 Drexler....Really.

[Samurai Swoosh]

And take another look at 1995 Drexler....Really.
I've never been a fan of Drexler, even when he was younger. He was disgusting to watch. He got a lot of his buckets in transition. As a half court player he was disgusting. Couldn't go left, dribbled with his head down ...

Yuck

[Dream34]

Drexler could definitely play well in the half-court set. He developed a really nice back to the basket game-- much better than the post-up game of a certain egomaniac in Miami lol-for instance, in the 95 series against the Jazz, he frequently abused Hornacek in the post. He also had a nice little pull-up from 13-17 feet that he could use. He was a solid spot up shooter. Even at age 32, he could still consistently take Majerle- a pretty damn good defender-off the dribble- in the 1995 WCSF. 95' Drexler was an All NBA third teamer, and he was still a very effective player in the half-court offensive set.

[xxxSuperStar]

I've never been a fan of Drexler, even when he was younger. He was disgusting to watch. He got a lot of his buckets in transition. As a half court player he was disgusting. Couldn't go left, dribbled with his head down ...

Yuck

I agree. One of the best and most disgusting players of all time. He put his bald head down and went to the basket...somehow made it work. Him and Nique make me cringe 80% of the time and were "that's cool" 20% of the time.

That said, with Glide, he was big, aggressive and not many people could guard him. Career 20 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 2spg..can't do too much better than that without being top 20.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I've never been a fan of Drexler, even when he was younger. He was disgusting to watch. He got a lot of his buckets in transition. As a half court player he was disgusting. Couldn't go left, dribbled with his head down ...

Yuck

I get what you're saying, but I think he was perfect as the second option for that Rocket team. He was rejuvenated and playing his best ball since '92. He retained his athleticism well and could get points in the flow of the offense with a transition basket here or there(was still one of the better open court players in the league, imo), a post up play or a jumpshot. He was also an excellent passer and rebounder and willing to be the 2nd option(which may be what he would have been best as all along).

[Sarcastic]

What does that have to do with anything? They're also the only team on this list that won a title, they also have easily the best player of any of these teams, arguably the best sidekick of any of these teams and the best inside/outside balance. Not to mention that they seemed more clutch.

It has to do with you being a Shaq homer.

They won the title only because they never had to play the best team of the decade. They were an opportunistic champion that played its best when the GOAT took a leave of absence.

[Lakers Legend#32]

'96 Sonics, the best hands down. The others don't matter. And F#CK OKC!

[ShaqAttack3234]

It has to do with you being a Shaq homer.

They won the title only because they never had to play the best team of the decade. They were an opportunistic champion that played its best when the GOAT took a leave of absence.

:oldlol: at this clown. That connection is a REAL stretch. The 1997 Jazz beat Shaq's team as well, but of course I wouldn't expect an idiot like you to consider that. Pretty much kills that theory.

You talk about them winning when Jordan was out, yet Jordan came back that year and was damn good in the playoffs, but they lost to Orlando who Houston swept, granted their frontcourt was weaker than other years with that being the year after Grant and before Rodman.

But Olajuwon was a clear step above any of the other team's best players in that discussion and he had a playoff run that you can put right up there with the best by Jordan, Kareem, Shaq or anyone who has played this game. And as far as 2nd options, only Seattle had one to rival 1995 Drexler. And as I mentioned, Houston had a vastly superior post presence to any of these other teams, as well as the 3 point shooting to go with it and an all-star caliber guard, a perfect combination when you have such a post player and 3 point shooting.

They beat a 60 win team, 59 win team, 62 win team and 57 win team without homecourt in any series. Just think about that for a minute.

Yet it's crazy to pick them over any of these other teams? :roll:

Much like the 2001 Lakers, I don't really judge the 1995 Rockets by their regular season record.

[CJ Mustard]

1. '96 Sonics
2. '93 Suns
3. '97 Jazz
4. '95 Rockets

[BlackJoker23]

the 04 twolves with kg.
i repeat this is all that needs to be said. GayG would destroy all these teams singlehandedly. goat pf ladies and gentlemen. :applause:

[cdbleb]

Barkley was injured and they couldn't close Houston out, despite a pair of 20+ rebound efforts and a 34/14 Game 6.

93 Suns only have 1 of the three best players when matched against any of those: Keem/Drex, Glove/Kemp, Malone/Stockton.... Barkley and... Kevin Johnson?

You're looking way too much into names, didn't you learn anything from this years Finals or the 04' Finals? The 93 Suns had Barkley, Dan Majerle, Tom Chambers, KJ, Richard Dumas, and Cedric Ceballos...That should put them in the top two of this list based off of Ceballos' rap alone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cIAOgl8yHg

[Sarcastic]

:oldlol: at this clown. That connection is a REAL stretch. The 1997 Jazz beat Shaq's team as well, but of course I wouldn't expect an idiot like you to consider that. Pretty much kills that theory.

You talk about them winning when Jordan was out, yet Jordan came back that year and was damn good in the playoffs, but they lost to Orlando who Houston swept, granted their frontcourt was weaker than other years with that being the year after Grant and before Rodman.

But Olajuwon was a clear step above any of the other team's best players in that discussion and he had a playoff run that you can put right up there with the best by Jordan, Kareem, Shaq or anyone who has played this game. And as far as 2nd options, only Seattle had one to rival 1995 Drexler. And as I mentioned, Houston had a vastly superior post presence to any of these other teams, as well as the 3 point shooting to go with it and an all-star caliber guard, a perfect combination when you have such a post player and 3 point shooting.

They beat a 60 win team, 59 win team, 62 win team and 57 win team without homecourt in any series. Just think about that for a minute.

Yet it's crazy to pick them over any of these other teams? :roll:

Much like the 2001 Lakers, I don't really judge the 1995 Rockets by their regular season record.

So it's ok to throw out regular season when picking between these 4 teams, yet when the greatest teams of all time are chosen, it always teams like the 96 Bulls or 72 Lakers that are picked as the greatest of all time.

So which is it? Do we count regular season or not?

[Fatal9]

'96 Sonics > '95 Rockets > '93 Suns > '97 Jazz

Sonics ahead only because I think they matchup really well with everyone. Only team out of the other three who I think you could expect to slow down Hakeem in a series. It was hell for post players to deal with their quick double teams and traps, you had to make your moves right away. Jazz in '95 I feel like had more talent than the '97 team, basically the same core but not as old. Got to the finals because they aged the best (behind Malone/Stockton) as the West got weaker/older but not any better than they were in '95.

People need to give the Rockets more credit, like SA mentioned their regular season record is misleading due to injuries/trades. They beat the 4 best teams in the league in their playoff run, had an assassin as their leader who was playing at a level as well as anyone ever has in the playoffs, a solid second option who carried the load when Hakeem was resting, championship experience (from '94) and they were easily the clutchest team out of all of them. Their weakness used to be rebounding though iirc.

I always lose respect for the '93 Suns because they were couple of possessions away from getting swept by 39 win Laker team in the first round. They played down to their competition a lot, played too relaxed with leads but at the same time had the talent to beat anyone.

[cdbleb]

People forget how good that 96 Sonics team really was. The 96 Bulls have been coined by many as the greatest team of all time having lost only 13 games all season (Including the playoffs) and the Sonics not only beat those Bulls 3x but 2 of those 3 wins were in back to back games of the Finals after the Bulls took a 3-0 lead. Also in one of those Finals games the Sonics held the Bulls to merely 32 points in the first half which led to a 21 point win for Seattle in the game. They had GP, Shawn Kemp, Nate McMillian and Hersey Hawkins...And 2 guys who were similar to Dirk with their size and range (I am NOT comparing Perkins or Schrempf to Dirk! I'm saying they were bigs with range SIMILAR to Dirks).

Plus Gary Payton rapped too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQZUtvYz9tw

[ShaqAttack3234]

So it's ok to throw out regular season when picking between these 4 teams, yet when the greatest teams of all time are chosen, it always teams like the 96 Bulls or 72 Lakers that are picked as the greatest of all time.

So which is it? Do we count regular season or not?

We're comparing a champion to 3 non-champions, so yes, I'd say regular season record is less important than the fact that Houston won the title and beat 4 teams that had all of the regular season wins you could ask for.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Not even close.

Hakeem was a more dominant 2 way player regardless of who faced Jordan or not. Jordan also said his Bulls "feared" Hakeem's Rockets. So make of that what you will....

Hell, nobody remembers the refs gifting the Suns game 5 against the Lakers on a horrible call.

The Sonics should've gone to the finals in 1993.
:applause:
Rockets
Sonics
Suns
Jazz

[Sarcastic]

We're comparing a champion to 3 non-champions, so yes, I'd say regular season record is less important than the fact that Houston won the title and beat 4 teams that had all of the regular season wins you could ask for.

Again, the Rockets never had to play Jordan. I am sure I made that explicitly clear in an earlier post.

[NugzHeat3]

:applause:
Rockets
Sonics
Suns
Jazz
That was a terrible call.

I'm sure you can relate it to it. That call Kareem got in 1988 was just as bogus and the Pistons should've won that year.

The refs favored the Suns against Seattle in game 7 too when Barkley and Johnson made a living at the line. It was pretty simple. Jordan-Barkley in the finals = $$$$. Seattle should have went to the finals.

As for the Rockets, there is no way they should be ranked below the Suns or Jazz. They took the Suns out in both 1994 and 1995 and they took the Jazz out in the same years as well especially the 1995 Jazz which were a 60 win team and no worse than the 97 version. The 1993 Suns are not that impressive anyway since the refs got them to the finals.

It doesn't matter if they faced Jordan or not.

Jordan was in the league in 95 and lost to a team the Rockets swept.

Jordan, Phil and the coaching staff noted that the Rockets gave them a lot of trouble due to Hakeem's versatility and Maxwell could D up Jordan pretty well. The Rockets were 5-1 against the Bulls from 1991-93. There is no guarantee the Bulls win.

[Sarcastic]

That was a terrible call.

I'm sure you can relate it to it. That call Kareem got in 1988 was just as bogus and the Pistons should've won that year.

The refs favored the Suns against Seattle in game 7 too when Barkley and Johnson made a living at the line. It was pretty simple. Jordan-Barkley in the finals = $$$$. Seattle should have went to the finals.

As for the Rockets, there is no way they should be ranked below the Suns or Jazz. They took the Suns out in both 1994 and 1995 and they took the Jazz out in the same years as well especially the 1995 Jazz which were a 60 win team and no worse than the 97 version. The 1993 Suns are not that impressive anyway since the refs got them to the finals.

It doesn't matter if they faced Jordan or not.

Jordan was in the league in 95 and lost to a team the Rockets swept.

Jordan, Phil and the coaching staff noted that the Rockets gave them a lot of trouble due to Hakeem's versatility and Maxwell could D up Jordan pretty well. The Rockets were 5-1 against the Bulls from 1991-93. There is no guarantee the Bulls win.

Because Jordan right after playing baseball was the same as he was from 87-93, or after he worked out in the offseason prior to 96 :rolleyes:

[Dream34]

Well, speaking of bad officiating jobs, we could have very well seen a 1993 match-up between the Rockets and the Bulls. Game 7 of the WCSF should have gone to the Rockets, but the refs gift-wrapped three terrible calls during crunch-time to Seattle. Then, I think the Rockets had a pretty damn good shot of beating the Suns in the WCF; I mean.. Oliver Miller on Hakeem isn't gonna work. The inside-outside game would function well, and Thorpe can certainly hold his own against Barkley.

Anyways, I still believe the 95 Rockets are better than any team not named the 96 Sonics. The 95 Jazz might have been better than the 97 Jazz in all honesty, and Houston went past them.
If it weren't for that Jim McIllvaine fiasco, the Sonics could have certainly rattled off three consecutive Western Conference Championships from 1996-1998.. they were that good imo.

[NugzHeat3]

Because Jordan right after playing baseball was the same as he was from 87-93, or after he worked out in the offseason prior to 96 :rolleyes:
No. Jordan was pretty similar to what he did in the second three peat. Look up his numbers.

It's just they didn't have any rebounder or defensive presence in the paint. That's why getting Grant for Perdue for such a good deal for them.

You can say that Jordan wasn't mentally into it cause he choked pretty bad against Orlando in game 1 but they weren't doing anything that year regardless of what kind of Jordan they had.

[NugzHeat3]

Well, speaking of bad officiating jobs, we could have very well seen a 1993 match-up between the Rockets and the Bulls. Game 7 of the WCSF should have gone to the Rockets, but the refs gift-wrapped three terrible calls during crunch-time to Seattle. Then, I think the Rockets had a pretty damn good shot of beating the Suns in the WCF; I mean.. Oliver Miller on Hakeem isn't gonna work. The inside-outside game would function well, and Thorpe can certainly hold his own against Barkley.

Anyways, I still believe the 95 Rockets are better than any team not named the 96 Sonics. The 95 Jazz might have been better than the 97 Jazz in all honesty, and Houston went past them.
If it weren't for that Jim McIllvaine fiasco, the Sonics could have certainly rattled off three consecutive Western Conference Championships from 1996-1998.. they were that good imo.
Elaborate please. I have never heard of this.

I have a hard time believing Seattle got some bad calls in their favor.

If that is the case, then the Rockets should be in the finals because the Suns should have never in the first place.

[Maniak]

Suns
Jazz
Sonics
Rockets

[Sarcastic]

No. Jordan was pretty similar to what he did in the second three peat. Look up his numbers.

It's just they didn't have any rebounder or defensive presence in the paint. That's why getting Grant for Perdue for such a good deal for them.

You can say that Jordan wasn't mentally into it cause he choked pretty bad against Orlando in game 1 but they weren't doing anything that year regardless of what kind of Jordan they had.

Not looking at the numbers, but watching him play, you can tell he was not in top basketball shape in 1995.

He only played in 17 games that year, and was a 41% shooter. When was Jordan ever that inefficient prior to that, or after (not including Wizards)?

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

That was a terrible call.

I'm sure you can relate it to it. That call Kareem got in 1988 was just as bogus and the Pistons should've won that year.

The refs favored the Suns against Seattle in game 7 too when Barkley and Johnson made a living at the line. It was pretty simple. Jordan-Barkley in the finals = $$$$. Seattle should have went to the finals.

As for the Rockets, there is no way they should be ranked below the Suns or Jazz. They took the Suns out in both 1994 and 1995 and they took the Jazz out in the same years as well especially the 1995 Jazz which were a 60 win team and no worse than the 97 version. The 1993 Suns are not that impressive anyway since the refs got them to the finals.

It doesn't matter if they faced Jordan or not.

Jordan was in the league in 95 and lost to a team the Rockets swept.

Jordan, Phil and the coaching staff noted that the Rockets gave them a lot of trouble due to Hakeem's versatility and Maxwell could D up Jordan pretty well. The Rockets were 5-1 against the Bulls from 1991-93. There is no guarantee the Bulls win.
enough said

[NugzHeat3]

Not looking at the numbers, but watching him play, you can tell he was not in top basketball shape in 1995.

He only played in 17 games that year, and was a 41% shooter. When was Jordan ever that inefficient prior to that, or after (not including Wizards)?
I too watched him play and I can admit he seemed a bit off mentally.

Still, in the playoffs he averaged 32/7/5 on 48% shooting. Those are pretty similar to his second three peat numbers.

Like I said though, they aren't beating anyone regardless of which Jordan they had because of their rebounding and interior defense.

Jordan doesn't solve that.

[Dream34]

Nugzheat, this is the best link I can find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9n6JJgq-E

I just remember watching live and being just furious with that whole debacle of officiating. It was almost like it was rigged or some shit; the Sonics were more "exciting" cause they played more up-pace. The whole Suns Sonics series did have alot of scoring, but I don't know for sure.

[millwad]

The Rockets were great no doubt, but they are the only team here that didn't have to go against Jordan. All the other teams shred through the Western Conference too then ran into the Bulls and were stopped short.

Jordan was in it in 95, he got handled by the Magic feat Shaq and Penny, the same Magic team Hakeem and the rockets SWEPT!

[Sarcastic]

I too watched him play and I can admit he seemed a bit off mentally.

Still, in the playoffs he averaged 32/7/5 on 48% shooting. Those are pretty similar to his second three peat numbers.

Like I said though, they aren't beating anyone regardless of which Jordan they had because of their rebounding and interior defense.

Jordan doesn't solve that.

He stepped up for 10 games in the playoffs, but he was still trying to play like Jordan of old at that time, and be a slasher but his body was in baseball shape still. He wasn't in basketball shape yet. He hadn't developed the signature fade away at that point yet either. That was the big difference for him in 1996.

Also losing Grant was obviously huge. Their interior defense was lacking until they got Rodman the next season.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan was in it in 95, he got handled by the Magic feat Shaq and Penny, the same Magic team Hakeem and the rockets SWEPT!

And what did Jordan do to the Magic in 1996 after he had a full season to play?

The Bulls sweeping the Magic was more impressive than the Rockets sweeping the Magic. Bulls blew them out in 2 of the games. The Rockets/Magic played every game pretty close.

[NugzHeat3]

Nugzheat, this is the best link I can find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9n6JJgq-E

I just remember watching live and being just furious with that whole debacle of officiating. It was almost like it was rigged or some shit; the Sonics were more "exciting" cause they played more up-pace. The whole Suns Sonics series did have alot of scoring, but I don't know for sure.
Wow.

The first and last calls were absolutely terrible. They weren't questionable at all.

Pierce clearly took a swipe at the ball which caused the direction to change.

On the last one, Horry wasn't anywhere near the ball. It was just a bad pass that went out of bounds.

I think the second one was called a foul because Hakeem slightly bumped him. It was a clean block obviously but they called the bump on him.

Pretty sad.

The West in 1993 definitely has some sort of question mark next to it. Way too many games that seem to be fishy.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Wow.

The first and last calls were absolutely terrible. They weren't questionable at all.

Pierce clearly took a swipe at the ball which caused the direction to change.

On the last one, Horry wasn't anywhere near the ball. It was just a bad pass that went out of bounds.

I think the second one was called a foul because Hakeem slightly bumped him. It was a clean block obviously but they called the bump on him.

Pretty sad.

The West in 1993 definitely has some sort of question mark next to it. Way too many games that seem to be fishy.
ECF also:game 5 @ Garden,Charles Smith
as you said Barkley vs.Jordan=$$$

[ChrisKreager]

The 1995 Rockets were a strange team.

Hakeem played at a high level, but his teammates were up and down at times that season, mixing up their chemistry- then in the playoffs, they cheated death more than any NBA champion I can ever recall. They dug themselves into holes, but were able to dig out of each one.

[millwad]

And what did Jordan do to the Magic in 1996 after he had a full season to play?

The Bulls sweeping the Magic was more impressive than the Rockets sweeping the Magic. Bulls blew them out in 2 of the games. The Rockets/Magic played every game pretty close.

Don't be stupid, that's a terrible comparison.

In 1995 the Bulls didn't have Dennis Rodman, the same Rodman was on the all-defensive first team in 1996 and averaged 15 rebounds a game. And lets not forget that Horace Grant in 1996 had major problems with his health and had all kinds of injuries. In the playoffs vs the Bulls he still had the same health problems and only managed to play one crappy game before going down totally in the middle of game 2 and after that he was replaced by freaking Jon Koncak.

And lets not forget that Nick Anderson got injured and didn't play game 4 and he was replaced by Antony Bowie..

The sweep done by Houston was vs a healthy Orlando team, not like the Chicago sweep which happened vs a team where Shaq missed 30 games in the regular season, Grant missed 20 games. And Houston's sweep was vs a healthy Horace Grant, not against an Orlando team where Jon Koncak was the starting PF most of the series...

Do you still think that Chicago's sweep was more impressive than Rockets? A sweep vs a healthy Orlando team or a sweep vs a team basically without Grant for 3 games and Anderson for 1 game...

[Sarcastic]

Don't be stupid, that's a terrible comparison.

In 1995 the Bulls didn't have Dennis Rodman, the same Rodman was on the all-defensive first team in 1996 and averaged 15 rebounds a game. And lets not forget that Horace Grant in 1996 had major problems with his health and had all kinds of injuries. In the playoffs vs the Bulls he still had the same health problems and only managed to play one crappy game before going down totally in the middle of game 2 and after that he was replaced by freaking Jon Koncak.

And lets not forget that Nick Anderson got injured and didn't play game 4 and he was replaced by Antony Bowie..

The sweep done by Houston was vs a healthy Orlando team, not like the Chicago sweep which happened vs a team where Shaq missed 30 games in the regular season, Grant missed 20 games. And Houston's sweep was vs a healthy Horace Grant, not against an Orlando team where Jon Koncak was the starting PF most of the series...

Do you still think that Chicago's sweep was more impressive than Rockets? A sweep vs a healthy Orlando team or a sweep vs a team basically without Grant for 3 games and Anderson for 1 game...


1996 Bulls >>> 1995 Rockets bro

[millwad]

1996 Bulls >>> 1995 Rockets bro

You just showed how crappy your previous post was, "BRO".

1995 Rockets >>> 1995 Bulls

[Sarcastic]

You just showed how crappy your previous post was, "BRO".

1995 Rockets >>> 1995 Bulls

Did I say they weren't?

[Gotterdammerung]

Sorry Gentlemen, but Shaqattack is correct.

The 1995 Rockets were clutch, hungry, ferocious on defense, posed match up problems across the board, and already beat them all except for the Sonics. While the 1993 Suns were more potent than they were in 1994 or 1995, they didn't change dramatically. And the Jazz became slightly more effective but they reached the finals only once Houston and Seattle and Phoenix and Portland all started to decline.

The Sonics would be the only team to have an edge on paper, since I remember that ignominious sweep in 1996, vs a weaker and less effective Rockets edition. But Hakeem in 1995 was on a level that only a handful of the very greatest ever reached. That alone puts the hypothetical outcome in doubt.

[millwad]

Did I say they weren't?

What did your beloved Chicago Bulls have to do with the discussion then? Your comparison was terrible to start with.. Someone wrote that MJ wasn't in it and I informed the idiot that he got his ass kicked by the Magic, which he did.

[millwad]

Sorry Gentlemen, but Shaqattack is correct.

The 1995 Rockets were clutch, hungry, ferocious on defense, posed match up problems across the board, and already beat them all except for the Sonics. While the 1993 Suns were more potent than they were in 1994 or 1995, they didn't change dramatically. And the Jazz became slightly more effective but they reached the finals only once Houston and Seattle and Phoenix and Portland all started to decline.

The Sonics would be the only team to have an edge on paper, since I remember that ignominious sweep in 1996, vs a weaker and less effective Rockets edition. But Hakeem in 1995 was on a level that only a handful of the very greatest ever reached. That alone puts the hypothetical outcome in doubt.

Couldn't agree more, well written.

[Sarcastic]

What did your beloved Chicago Bulls have to do with the discussion then? Your comparison was terrible to start with.. Someone wrote that MJ wasn't in it and I informed the idiot that he got his ass kicked by the Magic, which he did.

First of all I hate the Chicago Bulls. Only reason I brought them up is because it's been brought up that the Rockets are the only one of these teams that won the title, however they never had to face the Bulls during their dynasty runs.

Saying the Rockets beat the Magic who beat the Bulls in a season in which Jordan was not even in basketball shape is not the same as the Rockets actually beating a prime Jordan team.

[millwad]

First of all I hate the Chicago Bulls. Only reason I brought them up is because it's been brought up that the Rockets are the only one of these teams that won the title, however they never had to face the Bulls during their dynasty runs.

Saying the Rockets beat the Magic who beat the Bulls in a season in which Jordan was not even in basketball shape is not the same as the Rockets actually beating a prime Jordan team.

Exactly, they didn't face the Bulls because Shaq and Penny owned them in the playoffs in 1995. It's retarded to claim that the Bulls would have had won against Magic if Jordan would have had a full season. The difference wasn't that big and since Hakeem was the beast he was they would really not stand a chance considering the fact how much Bulls sucked in the paint that year.. After Grant and Pre-Rodman..

[Sarcastic]

Exactly, they didn't face the Bulls because Shaq and Penny owned them in the playoffs in 1995. It's retarded to claim that the Bulls would have had won against Magic if Jordan would have had a full season. The difference wasn't that big and since Hakeem was the beast he was they would really not stand a chance considering the fact how much Bulls sucked in the paint that year.. After Grant and Pre-Rodman..

Circles.

[Gotterdammerung]

First of all I hate the Chicago Bulls. Only reason I brought them up is because it's been brought up that the Rockets are the only one of these teams that won the title, however they never had to face the Bulls during their dynasty runs.
this is one of the worst argument I keep hearing from sports fans all the time.

A champion shouldn't be discredited because they did not play in the finals in other years. It implies that you pick your opponent -- a silly infantile and specious assumption.

The 49ers won 4 super bowls in the 80s but they never had to face a dominant dynasty AFC team.
The Cowboys won 3 super bowls in the 90s but they never faced a champion in the super bowl. (never mind the fact they faced off vs the 49ers in the real super bowl in the NFC title games)
The Shaq-Kobe Lakers never faced a strong opponent in their finals threepeat till the 04 Pistons.
Thus their titles don't count!
:roll:

We could make the same charge vs almost any other titleist -- including the very Chicago Bulls in 1995 who failed to face the Rockets with Jordan. But that gets us absolutely nowhere.


Saying the Rockets beat the Magic who beat the Bulls in a season in which Jordan was not even in basketball shape is not the same as the Rockets actually beating a prime Jordan team.
saying the 1986 Boston Celtics beat the Bulls in the playoffs is not the same as the Celtics beating a prime Jordan team either but nobody is making this argument. When you figure this out you'll drop this logic. :)

[Sarcastic]

this is one of the worst argument I keep hearing from sports fans all the time.

A champion shouldn't be discredited because they did not play in the finals in other years. It implies that you pick your opponent -- a silly infantile and specious assumption.

The 49ers won 4 super bowls in the 80s but they never had to face a dominant dynasty AFC team.
The Cowboys won 3 super bowls in the 90s but they never faced a champion in the super bowl. (never mind the fact they faced off vs the 49ers in the real super bowl in the NFC title games)
The Shaq-Kobe Lakers never faced a strong opponent in their finals threepeat till the 04 Pistons.
Thus their titles don't count!
:roll:

We could make the same charge vs almost any other titleist -- including the very Chicago Bulls in 1995 who failed to face the Rockets with Jordan. But that gets us absolutely nowhere.


saying the 1986 Boston Celtics beat the Bulls in the playoffs is not the same as the Celtics beating a prime Jordan team either but nobody is making this argument. When you figure this out you'll drop this logic. :)


There has never been a situation in football or any other sport similar to what happened during the 1990s NBA, where the premier player dominated for a period of time, then leaves the game, then comes back.

The closest thing I can compare it to would be a golfer winning a major when Tiger Woods didn't play. There will always be a little more credit if you can win one with Tiger in the field. You can't deny that.

[jlauber]

Well, I did say "perhaps". I never saw Wilt play live because I- to put it bluntly- was not old enough to see the 60's and 70's. I know he did challenge Kareem and his skyhook in his twilight years so I'm not gonna deny that he's a great shotblocker. If I criticize Wilt, it's gonna be more so the about how the pace inflated his stats and his "wilting" in the playoffs. That's for another time though.. regardless, I still think Olajuwon is the best shot-blocker I have seen live.


First of all, Hakeem was not even the best shot-blocker of his OWN ERA. Mark Eaton won FOUR shot-blokc titles to Hakeem's three. And, Eaton had the "post-Wilt" record of 5.6 bpg in Hakeem's era. Of course, we already KNOW that Chamberlain had SEASONS of over 10 bpg. And don't kid yourself, the "pace" was nowhere DOUBLE of what it was in Hakeem's era. Teams took about 75% of the shots in Hakeem's era than they did in Chamberlain's. We also know that in the 68-69 season, in a league that averaged 112 ppg on .441 shooting, Wilt blocked a RECORDED 23 shots in one game. BTW, Hakeem was nowhere near the best scorer, shooter, or rebounder of his era, either. He never won a scoring or FG% title, in EIGHTEEN seasons, and while he barely won two rebounding titles, when he was paired up with Barkley, Charles outrebounded him by FOUR rpg. So, he was clearly not even in Barkley's class in rebounding.

As for Wilt "wilting" in the playoffs...hmmm...14 seasons, 12 conference Finals, six conference champions, six finals, four teams with the best record in the league, four 60+ teams, two titles, and he anchored two of the greatest teams in NBA history, with records of 69-13 and 68-13. He had FOUR post-seasons of between 33.2 ppg to 37.0 ppg. Three playoff series of between 37-39 ppg. FOUR playoff series, against RUSSELL, of 30+ ppg, including a 30-31 seven game series in '65. His rebounding also CLIMBED significantly in the playoffs, and he had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7+ rpg, including one of 29 and another of 30! He also faced a HOF center in two-thirds of his 160 post-season games, and he either outplayed or downright dominated everyone of them in his 29 post-season series. He also was outgunned by HOFers in EVERY post-season (except 60-61.) In his first TEN years in the league (and remember he only played 14 seasons) the greatest dynasty in professional team sports resided. He faced Celtic teams with as many as NINE HOFers (and never less than FIVE.) Then, he faced the 69-70 Knicks (60-22) with their FOUR HOFers (and Cazzie Russell and a much deeper bench), then the 70-71 Bucks (66-16 and with Kareem and Oscar) without BOTH Baylor and West. Then he wiped out that same Buck team the very next season, and then dominated the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals. And in his LAST post-season, he got his injured Lakers to the Finals, where they lost four close games (all decided in the last minute) to the Knicks and their SIX HOFers.

Chamberlain also SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried craapy rosters in the first half of his career, and nearly took a 40-40 team, that was outgunned in HOFers, 6-2, up against a 62-18 Celtic team...and took them to a game seven, ONE point loss, in game in which Wilt scored 30 points on an 80% FG%, with 32 rebounds...in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg.

Hakeem's post-season career? In his eighteen seasons, he went to the playoffs in 15 seasons. He only played on five teams that won 50+ games, and NEVER a 60 win team. He only made it to the conference Finals in four of them. He went to the Finals in three of them. And he won two rings...one in year in which the best player in the league did not play (and would SURELY have carried that 55-27 Bulls team, that lost a close seven games serie to the Knicks, who lost a close seven games to Hakeem's Rockets...to a title.) Hakeem also played on FOUR playoff teams that lost to lower seeds, and on EIGHT that did not get past the first round.

Let's not make Hakeem out like he was some kind of immortal. He had a BORDERLINE top-10 career, and was NOWHERE near on the level of Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, or Duncan. And his career wasn't any better than Bird's or Kobe's, either. Hell, Moses was more probably a more dominant player overall.

Hakeem won ONE MVP (and it conveniently came in the 93-94 season, in which MJ skipped.) He came in second ONE other time. His next best finish was 4th. In the VAST majority of his career he wasn't even considered in the top-FIVE of the league, and he was only in the top-10 in MVP voting in NINE of his EIGHTEEN seasons.

My god, let's put an end to this NONSENSE.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

after 50 yrs of watching NBA how come you don't have the basic understanding of the game?

[jlauber]

after 50 yrs of watching NBA how come you don't have the basic understanding of the game?

Wh? Because I don't understand how a player who was SELDOM even acknowledged among the top-FIVE players in his OWN leagues, is somehow a top-5 player all-time????

Hakeem was a very good player...and NOTHING more.
His career was BORDERLINE TOP-10, and NOTHING more.

[Fatal9]

after 50 yrs of watching NBA how come you don't have the basic understanding of the game?
I wonder the same thing.

[Gotterdammerung]

There has never been a situation in football or any other sport similar to what happened during the 1990s NBA, where the premier player dominated for a period of time, then leaves the game, then comes back.The closest thing I can compare it to would be a golfer winning a major when Tiger Woods didn't play. There will always be a little more credit if you can win one with Tiger in the field. You can't deny that.


Yes I can because this isn't your original argument. You're initially saying that team X never beat team Y in the playoffs. Therefore team X titles are under doubt. Your attempt to move the goalposts is amusing but disingenuous, really.

Apply this argument to any other team, including the Bulls and you'll quickly see how absurd it is. That is if you're intellectually honest. Most sports fans aren't however but I remain an optimist. :D

[millwad]

First of all, Hakeem was not even the best shot-blocker of his OWN ERA. Mark Eaton won FOUR shot-blokc titles to Hakeem's three. And, Eaton had the "post-Wilt" record of 5.6 bpg in Hakeem's era. Of course, we already KNOW that Chamberlain had SEASONS of over 10 bpg. And don't kid yourself, the "pace" was nowhere DOUBLE of what it was in Hakeem's era. Teams took about 75% of the shots in Hakeem's era than they did in Chamberlain's. We also know that in the 68-69 season, in a league that averaged 112 ppg on .441 shooting, Wilt blocked a RECORDED 23 shots in one game. BTW, Hakeem was nowhere near the best scorer, shooter, or rebounder of his era, either. He never won a scoring or FG% title, in EIGHTEEN seasons, and while he barely won two rebounding titles, when he was paired up with Barkley, Charles outrebounded him by FOUR rpg. So, he was clearly not even in Barkley's class in rebounding.

As for Wilt "wilting" in the playoffs...hmmm...14 seasons, 12 conference Finals, six conference champions, six finals, four teams with the best record in the league, four 60+ teams, two titles, and he anchored two of the greatest teams in NBA history, with records of 69-13 and 68-13. He had FOUR post-seasons of between 33.2 ppg to 37.0 ppg. Three playoff series of between 37-39 ppg. FOUR playoff series, against RUSSELL, of 30+ ppg, including a 30-31 seven game series in '65. His rebounding also CLIMBED significantly in the playoffs, and he had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7+ rpg, including one of 29 and another of 30! He also faced a HOF center in two-thirds of his 160 post-season games, and he either outplayed or downright dominated everyone of them in his 29 post-season series. He also was outgunned by HOFers in EVERY post-season (except 60-61.) In his first TEN years in the league (and remember he only played 14 seasons) the greatest dynasty in professional team sports resided. He faced Celtic teams with as many as NINE HOFers (and never less than FIVE.) Then, he faced the 69-70 Knicks (60-22) with their FOUR HOFers (and Cazzie Russell and a much deeper bench), then the 70-71 Bucks (66-16 and with Kareem and Oscar) without BOTH Baylor and West. Then he wiped out that same Buck team the very next season, and then dominated the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals. And in his LAST post-season, he got his injured Lakers to the Finals, where they lost four close games (all decided in the last minute) to the Knicks and their SIX HOFers.

Chamberlain also SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried craapy rosters in the first half of his career, and nearly took a 40-40 team, that was outgunned in HOFers, 6-2, up against a 62-18 Celtic team...and took them to a game seven, ONE point loss, in game in which Wilt scored 30 points on an 80% FG%, with 32 rebounds...in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg.

Hakeem's post-season career? In his eighteen seasons, he went to the playoffs in 15 seasons. He only played on five teams that won 50+ games, and NEVER a 60 win team. He only made it to the conference Finals in four of them. He went to the Finals in three of them. And he won two rings...one in year in which the best player in the league did not play (and would SURELY have carried that 55-27 Bulls team, that lost a close seven games serie to the Knicks, who lost a close seven games to Hakeem's Rockets...to a title.) Hakeem also played on FOUR playoff teams that lost to lower seeds, and on EIGHT that did not get past the first round.

Let's not make Hakeem out like he was some kind of immortal. He had a BORDERLINE top-10 career, and was NOWHERE near on the level of Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, or Duncan. And his career wasn't any better than Bird's or Kobe's, either. Hell, Moses was more probably a more dominant player overall.

Hakeem won ONE MVP (and it conveniently came in the 93-94 season, in which MJ skipped.) He came in second ONE other time. His next best finish was 4th. In the VAST majority of his career he wasn't even considered in the top-FIVE of the league, and he was only in the top-10 in MVP voting in NINE of his EIGHTEEN seasons.

My god, let's put an end to this NONSENSE.

It's funny that you talk about putting an end to this "nonsense".

The nonsense here is that you came to thread and wrote a full page about Hakeem Olajuwon compared to games that was played 35 years prior to Hakeem's.. Please, get a life, you haven't even seen the games you write all that crap about, you're a pathetic little low-life watching reports and extremely old boxscore. You're the same fool who considered Nate Thurmond to be a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon.

Hakeem is better than Duncan, no doubt and please, if you would have put in Russell straight out of the 60's in todays game he would look like a fool and if he would have had todays training and everything he would have been a defender only, a Ben Wallace type of guy. Russell had no offense... And Wilt, the guy you love so much wasn't able to win crap during the years he ballhogged, individual records yes, team success, no.. Dude wasn't even the leading scorer in the playoffs for neither of his teams those years he won.

And seriously, why did you write all that nonsense just because someone wrote that Hakeem was the best shotblocker he ever saw, he just said he didn't see Wilt and those guys play and he said his opinion, he didn't say it was JUST like what he said, only his own freaking opinion. Get yourself a life ffs, you write about freaking games who were 50 years ago and in this case it didn't even have a thing to do with the freaking subject of the thread.

[jlauber]

I wonder the same thing.

And I believe you are one of the idiots that ranked Hakeem in the all-time Top-5 and ahead of Russell and Wilt.

Think about this moron...Hakeem played EIGHTEEN seasons.

He won ONE MVP (and MJ skipped that season.)
He came in second ONE other time.
He finished 4th TWICE.
He finished 5th TWICE.
He finished 7th THREE times.

That was IT. In 18 seasons, he finished in the top-10, NINE times. He wasn't even regarded as a top-10 player in his OWN leagues, in HALF of his career. And yet a complete idiot like yourself ranks him 5th all-time.:facepalm

[swi7ch]

oneo f those teams wouldn't have won a title if mj didn't retire

just proves he is the goat... denied so many greats a championship

[millwad]

And I believe you are one of the idiots that ranked Hakeem in the all-time Top-5 and ahead of Russell and Wilt.

Think about this moron...Hakeem played EIGHTEEN seasons.

He won ONE MVP (and MJ skipped that season.)
He came in second ONE other time.
He finished 4th TWICE.
He finished 5th TWICE.
He finished 7th THREE times.

That was IT. In 18 seasons, he finished in the top-10, NINE times. He wasn't even regarded as a top-10 player in his OWN leagues, in HALF of his career. And yet a complete idiot like yourself ranks him 5th all-time.:facepalm

You're the idiot here, you are the retarded fool who post crap about Wilt and Russell in a thread about 4 teams of the 90's, not the 60's so stop writing your nonsense, you are just so freaking retarded.

And Hakeem dominated damn much, the guy would have been higher up in the MVP-ranks if he wouldn't have been stuck in the crappy teams in the middle of his career. If you would make a list of the best players in the 80's and the 90's and combine them he would most definitely be in the top-10, idiot..

[millwad]

Wh? Because I don't understand how a player who was SELDOM even acknowledged among the top-FIVE players in his OWN leagues, is somehow a top-5 player all-time????

Hakeem was a very good player...and NOTHING more.
His career was BORDERLINE TOP-10, and NOTHING more.

That's pure bullshit, talentwise a guy like Russell was top 3 during his era but all-time he wouldn't even be close, just based on talent.

[Dream34]

Oh please, he definilty "Wilted", and he had a reputation/stigma of stat-padding in blowouts.
Wilt's career regular season stats- 30.1 points per game, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, 54.0 FG%, 51.1 FT%
Wilt's career playoff stats- 22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, 52.2 FG%, 46.5 FT%
I see a drop- don't give me a long-winded explanation of fabricating some ridiculous notion that Wilt elevated his game during playoff time. I like how you neglected his horrendous 1968 chokejob(where he played ridiculously passive) , his inflated 1962 finals series, how his numbers plummeted BIGTIME in the playoffs in 69, and how he got his ass swept in 61 by Kerr with HC advantage.

Pace? He had a season where he averaged 48.5 minutes a game; he took nearly 41 shots a game in one season-who the hell does that?

Also, let's not forget his atrocious free throw shooting- a huge weakness for a player who's supposably the "GOAT".

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Wh? Because I don't understand how a player who was SELDOM even acknowledged among the top-FIVE players in his OWN leagues, is somehow a top-5 player all-time????

Hakeem was a very good player...and NOTHING more.
His career was BORDERLINE TOP-10, and NOTHING more.
I don't care about that top 5 ,top 10 bs and ,as one grown ass man to another ,you shouldn't care too.
Why you're so obsessed with Wilt man?
" '93 Suns/'95 Rockets/'96 Sonics/'97 Jazz" is the name of the thread.
I fail to see the need for another 'Wilt is the man' manifest.
Are you that insecure regarding your idol's value so you have to bring him up every time somebody mentions another center?

[millwad]

I don't care about that top 5 ,top 10 bs and ,as one grown ass man to another ,you shouldn't care too.
Why you're so obsessed with Wilt man?
" '93 Suns/'95 Rockets/'96 Sonics/'97 Jazz" is the name of the thread.
I fail to see the need for another 'Wilt is the man' manifest.
Are you that insecure regarding your idol's value so you have to bring him up every time somebody mentions another center?

He is always doing this, he kills topic after topic with his off topic crap. I don't even think he is seeing the games today, I've never seen him in a thread where he doesn't spam about how great the 60's was and about reports and boxscore's he's seen and read about Wilt..

It's like an obession for him to try to prove how great the 60's and Wilt were and how bad everyone is compared to him. Like the only reason to why he reads threads not involving guys from the 60's is to find anyone making some statement he can bash by spamming about Wilt..

[ShaqAttack3234]

Sorry Gentlemen, but Shaqattack is correct.

The 1995 Rockets were clutch, hungry, ferocious on defense, posed match up problems across the board, and already beat them all except for the Sonics. While the 1993 Suns were more potent than they were in 1994 or 1995, they didn't change dramatically. And the Jazz became slightly more effective but they reached the finals only once Houston and Seattle and Phoenix and Portland all started to decline.

The Sonics would be the only team to have an edge on paper, since I remember that ignominious sweep in 1996, vs a weaker and less effective Rockets edition. But Hakeem in 1995 was on a level that only a handful of the very greatest ever reached. That alone puts the hypothetical outcome in doubt.



this is one of the worst argument I keep hearing from sports fans all the time.

A champion shouldn't be discredited because they did not play in the finals in other years. It implies that you pick your opponent -- a silly infantile and specious assumption.

The 49ers won 4 super bowls in the 80s but they never had to face a dominant dynasty AFC team.
The Cowboys won 3 super bowls in the 90s but they never faced a champion in the super bowl. (never mind the fact they faced off vs the 49ers in the real super bowl in the NFC title games)
The Shaq-Kobe Lakers never faced a strong opponent in their finals threepeat till the 04 Pistons.
Thus their titles don't count!
:roll:

We could make the same charge vs almost any other titleist -- including the very Chicago Bulls in 1995 who failed to face the Rockets with Jordan. But that gets us absolutely nowhere.


saying the 1986 Boston Celtics beat the Bulls in the playoffs is not the same as the Celtics beating a prime Jordan team either but nobody is making this argument. When you figure this out you'll drop this logic. :)



Don't be stupid, that's a terrible comparison.

In 1995 the Bulls didn't have Dennis Rodman, the same Rodman was on the all-defensive first team in 1996 and averaged 15 rebounds a game. And lets not forget that Horace Grant in 1996 had major problems with his health and had all kinds of injuries. In the playoffs vs the Bulls he still had the same health problems and only managed to play one crappy game before going down totally in the middle of game 2 and after that he was replaced by freaking Jon Koncak.

And lets not forget that Nick Anderson got injured and didn't play game 4 and he was replaced by Antony Bowie..

The sweep done by Houston was vs a healthy Orlando team, not like the Chicago sweep which happened vs a team where Shaq missed 30 games in the regular season, Grant missed 20 games. And Houston's sweep was vs a healthy Horace Grant, not against an Orlando team where Jon Koncak was the starting PF most of the series...

Do you still think that Chicago's sweep was more impressive than Rockets? A sweep vs a healthy Orlando team or a sweep vs a team basically without Grant for 3 games and Anderson for 1 game...

Great posts, this sums up pretty much every thing I was going to say. The '96 Sonics have a case, I'll say that, but the 1995 Rockets to me are the best of these teams. Showing that much mental toughness and ability in the clutch is a major factor to me. That is something that even extremely talented teams just don't have and it makes a huge difference, we saw that just a few weeks ago in the NBA Finals.

[Bring-Your-Js]

That was a terrible call.

I'm sure you can relate it to it. That call Kareem got in 1988 was just as bogus and the Pistons should've won that year.

The refs favored the Suns against Seattle in game 7 too when Barkley and Johnson made a living at the line. It was pretty simple. Jordan-Barkley in the finals = $$$$. Seattle should have went to the finals.

As for the Rockets, there is no way they should be ranked below the Suns or Jazz. They took the Suns out in both 1994 and 1995 and they took the Jazz out in the same years as well especially the 1995 Jazz which were a 60 win team and no worse than the 97 version. The 1993 Suns are not that impressive anyway since the refs got them to the finals.

It doesn't matter if they faced Jordan or not.

Jordan was in the league in 95 and lost to a team the Rockets swept.

Jordan, Phil and the coaching staff noted that the Rockets gave them a lot of trouble due to Hakeem's versatility and Maxwell could D up Jordan pretty well. The Rockets were 5-1 against the Bulls from 1991-93. There is no guarantee the Bulls win.

That's since been redefined by another player in another series. And honestly, both theories are pathetic excuses to disminish some of the greatest performances in playoff history. Why go there?

Can we also note that he had 24 Rebounds to SEATTLE'S 31 and that he had 10 on the offensive glass to SEATTLE'S 8

[NugzHeat3]

[QUOTE=Bring-Your-Js]That's since been redefined by another player in another series. And honestly, both theories are pathetic excuses to disminish some of the greatest performances in playoff history. Why go there?

Can we also note that he had 24 Rebounds to SEATTLE'S 31 and that he had 10 on the offensive glass to SEATTLE'S 8

[Bring-Your-Js]

Oh so you ignore the fact that the Suns needed a HORRIFIC call to get past the Lakers?

They should've never faced Seattle anyway so I don't care much about Barkley's performances sorry.

He was inconsistent those playoffs too. People always mention the 40/20 and the 40 point triple double but he had some terrible games in the Seattle series for an "MVP'". A young Shawn Kemp had a couple of huge games in that series too and we all know why he did.

The only reason he went off against San Antonio in the last two games was because Carr got injured and they didn't have anybody to defend him. Carr forced him away from the paint shooting perimeter jumpers and Robinson was in the paint as a shot blocker.

You have any excuse for his Suns getting bailed out by the Lakers?

I'd love to hear that. Downright pathetic.

:violin:

Way to take the topic in about five different directions in one post.

It was an honest mistake, not a HORRIFIC call with malicious intent like many of your condescending posts. Every other post you make is about what would've/should've/could've happened and its changing nothing. Chances are good you could nitpick quite a few close games, find a questionable call, assume everything else would've played out the exact same way and cry foul.

Who said anything about the San Antonio series? Barkley was at a height disadvantage in most of his games in the NBA and Carr played him exceptionally well in that series save for one game. Barkley didn't even shoot particularly well in Game 6, but as was the case in a lot of his poor shooting games, he could still find ways to contribute I.e. rebounding of course. We know he wasnt a great defender and the same could be said for others. He makes up for it quite well by being one of the most efficient scorers ever as well as dominating the boards, playmaking skills, etc etc. I don't understand the hate here.

For what its worth, the Suns had "nobody" to defend Robinson or Olajuwon in 94-95 either. You know they had nobody to defend MJ because you smeared his first 3peat in another thread: ("That's what happens when you face the 91 Lakers and 93 Suns :oldlol: ")

[Samurai Swoosh]

For what its worth, the Suns had "nobody" to defend Robinson or Olajuwon in 94-95 either. You know they had nobody to defend MJ because you smeared his first 3peat in another thread: ("That's what happens when you face the 91 Lakers and 93 Suns :oldlol: ")… There was nobody to guard Shaq in 2000-2002, nobody to guard Wade this year (40yr old Kidd?).. In theory, there shouldve been nobody to guard Lebron either.

End of the day, it is what it is and you still have to perform. Feels like every great performance is marred or void by some silly bullshit on here these days.
http://www.failkittah.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/mike-ohhhh.gif

(I) fukk with your soul like ether
(Will) Teach you the king you know you
(Not) "God's son" across the belly
(Lose) I prove you lost already

All kinds of OWNAGE right there.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Marlo Stanfield]

96' Sonics
95' Rockets
93' Suns
97' Jazz

[Maniak]

96' Sonics
95' Rockets
93' Suns
97' Jazz
:wtf:

[Audio One]

1988-93 Barkley was as good as 94 and 95 Hakeem.

:applause:

[coolhandsteve]

Tough one, any one team could beat the other but I say:

'96 Sonics (that defense tho)
'93 Suns
'95 Rockets
'97 Jazz