Given 12 years of health, Ralph Sampson or Arvydas Sabonis?

[eliteballer]

Who would you pick if both were 21 years old and you were guaranteed 12 years of health(no major injuries)? Keep in mind I think steroids made Sabonis better than he would have been otherwise.

[RoseCity07]

Not trying to be a homer, but easily Sabonis.

This dude was the best passing big I've ever seen. He could stroke the 3 ball if he had to, and he had the hook shot down. A excellent free throw shooter.

I never got to see Sampson play. I don't know if he was nearly as skilled as Sabonis.

[gengiskhan]

fcvk dat!

Give healthy 12 more yrs to Len Bias I say. & then straight kill him in 1998.

I'll pick him over Ralphy & Arvy.

[eliteballer]

Not trying to be a homer, but easily Sabonis.

This dude was the best passing big I've ever seen. He could stroke the 3 ball if he had to, and he had the hook shot down. A excellent free throw shooter.

I never got to see Sampson play. I don't know if he was nearly as skilled as Sabonis.

Come now...really?

[gigantes]

Not trying to be a homer, but easily Sabonis.

This dude was the best passing big I've ever seen. He could stroke the 3 ball if he had to, and he had the hook shot down. A excellent free throw shooter.
well said. sabonis was an amazing player who only came to the NBA after his knees were pretty run down. would have loved to have seen him in the NBA during his prime.

even so, he was just about the only guy who could meet shaq weight-for-weight and strength-for-strength. quickness? haha, not so much...

[lucky001]

How skilled was Sabonis in his athletic prime? He was pretty skilled in portland with the passing and outside shooting. From the few memories I have of Ralph, he looked pretty skilled for guy his size during his short prime.

[Rowe]

Ralph Sampson.

Its not even all that close considering the immense talent & potential he had. He was 7'4, extremely long arms, & had a 36" vertical. Was a dominant type of player who liked having the ball in crunch time too. He had a mix of low post skill, agility, & length that was supposed to make him the 2nd coming of Wilt. We'll never know how dominant he could've been considering the injuries and the arrival of another great C in Hakeem.

I've heard all of these stories about a young Sabonis, but lets keep in mind he appeared to dominate in a much lower league in Europe at the time. Please lets keep in mind the talent level in Europe then was nothing like it is now, so please for everyone who believes the Sabonis myths dont fall for that misconception.

[iamgine]

Ralph Sampson.

Its not even all that close considering the immense talent & potential he had. He was 7'4, extremely long arms, & had a 36" vertical. Was a dominant type of player who liked having the ball in crunch time too. He had a mix of low post skill, agility, & length that was supposed to make him the 2nd coming of Wilt. We'll never know how dominant he could've been considering the injuries and the arrival of another great C in Hakeem.

I've heard all of these stories about a young Sabonis, but lets keep in mind he appeared to dominate in a much lower league in Europe at the time. Please lets keep in mind the talent level in Europe then was nothing like it is now, so please for everyone who believes the Sabonis myths dont fall for that misconception.
The stories around Sabonis revolved around how he schooled Team USA, not how he dominated Europe.

[QuebecBaller]

If I'm not wrong

Sabonis was a PG in a Center's body
and
Sampson was a SF in a Center's body

[reppy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHhnDBlBMEE&feature=player_detailpage#t=135s

Some highlights from Sabonis' time in the NBA, long past his prime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZizsAdutYo

An amazing pass by Sabonis. You can hear the announcers giggling like little kids.

[KevinNYC]

Ralph Sampson.

Its not even all that close considering the immense talent & potential he had. He was 7'4, extremely long arms, & had a 36" vertical. Was a dominant type of player who liked having the ball in crunch time too. He had a mix of low post skill, agility, & length that was supposed to make him the 2nd coming of Wilt. We'll never know how dominant he could've been considering the injuries and the arrival of another great C in Hakeem.

I've heard all of these stories about a young Sabonis, but lets keep in mind he appeared to dominate in a much lower league in Europe at the time. Please lets keep in mind the talent level in Europe then was nothing like it is now, so please for everyone who believes the Sabonis myths dont fall for that misconception.

Sabonis easily. Could play on the block with a nasty hook shoot or hit any open man on the court. Could play outside with a very nice jump shot. Size gave people fits. Sabonis before he got injured was a great, great center.

Sampson never played up to his size. Before he got injured he was a very good and promising center. He was 7'4" and in his first three seasons in the league he had about as many rebounds as Larry Bird. Look at Sabonis's and Sampson's numbers per 36 minutes. At 31, a post-injury Sabonis was rebounding at a higher rate (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sabonar01.html) than a 24 year-old pre injury Ralph Sampson.


Wow, I just checked Sabonis's Wikipedia page and Bill Walton called him a 7'3" Larry Bird.

Clyde Drexler on Sabonis (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/24592)

If Arvydas Sabonis had come over immediately after he was drafted in 1986, do you think you would have won a title with the Blazers?
Clyde Drexler
(4:22 PM)


We would have had four, five or six titles. Guaranteed. He was that good. He could pass, shoot three pointers, had a great post game, and dominated the paint. And he would have been younger. He was very effective in the NBA as an older player who had suffered an ankle injury.

[Stuckey]

sabonis all day

[KevinNYC]

well said. sabonis was an amazing player who only came to the NBA after his knees were pretty run down. would have loved to have seen him in the NBA during his prime.

even so, he was just about the only guy who could meet shaq weight-for-weight and strength-for-strength. quickness? haha, not so much...

His first significant injury was an achilles tendon injury which is a brutal injury. Prime Sabonis was quick, agile and could jump. Post injury he was planted like a tree. People who saw this guy play raved about him.
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-04-21/sports/sp-61136_1_arvydas-sabonis


Picture a player with quickness, anticipation, leaping ability, soft hands and one of those genius basketball IQs one sees only a few times a decade: Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Chris Mullin, John Stockton.

Picture all that on a player as massive as Mark Eaton, 7 feet 3 and 292 pounds. That was Sabonis in his prime.

"A quicker Bill Walton," says Phoenix Sun assistant Donnie Nelson, who coaches Sabonis on the Lithuanian national team.

"You didn't have to be a rocket scientist to know he'd play well. The guy's 7-3, he has that bulk and his passing ability. He was the second-best three-point shooter on our Lithuanian team to Rinas Kurtinaitis, who's world class.

"The guys on the Dream Team told me they couldn't believe how big the guy is. You see tall guys, but you don't see guys who are that tall and that bulky or proportioned.

"When you've got guys who understand the game like Chris Mullin and Stockton and they see a guy who's got that kind of vision, who understands the game--guys like that like to play against each other.

"Coaching him was a cakewalk. The game is so easy for him. He's so smart."

He was Shaq-like (Shaq-lite?) with crazy passing skills and a 3 point game and not at all Shaq like from the foul line. 78% for his NBA career.

[Rowe]

The stories around Sabonis revolved around how he schooled Team USA, not how he dominated Europe.

Its still nothing but a myth.

Just looking at the posts above it seems as if people are talking about Sabonis like he is Bigfoot.

[Rowe]

Sampson never played up to his size. Before he got injured he was a very good and promising center. He was 7'4" and in his first three seasons in the league he had about as many rebounds as Larry Bird. Look at Sabonis's and Sampson's numbers per 36 minutes. At 31, a post-injury Sabonis was rebounding at a higher rate (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sabonar01.html) than a 24 year-old pre injury Ralph Sampson.


Well, lets factor in 3 things.

1. Larry Bird statistically is the great rebounder from the SF position post-merger as the SF position became definitive.

2. Ralph Sampson played just 1 season going for 11 RPG where he was told to not give it his all as he later confirmed 10+ years later while the Rockets planned from the beginning to tank.

3. Ralph's following 2 seasons were spent playing PF with Hakeem.

The per 36 numbers arent a reliable statistic considering they arent adjusted for pace or fatigue. They're basically taking the numbers accumulated and projecting it as if the player continued what he did in a set amount of minutes over a 36 minute threshold.

[iamgine]

Its still nothing but a myth.

Just looking at the posts above it seems as if people are talking about Sabonis like he is Bigfoot.
I dunno if it's a myth or not. Some fairly credible people seemed to confirm it.

[IGOTGAME]

I dunno if it's a myth or not. Some fairly credible people seemed to confirm it.

I remember seeing gametape of him dunking on D-Robinson and throwing his shot back in his face....can't find it on youtube through.

[L.Kizzle]

The stories around Sabonis revolved around how he schooled Team USA, not how he dominated Europe.
Team USA, you mean college players?

Third year Ralph was leading the Rockets (with 2nd year Akeem) past the Showtime Lakers in their prime and took the 86 Celtics to 6 games.

[gigantes]

His first significant injury was an achilles tendon injury which is a brutal injury. Prime Sabonis was quick, agile and could jump. Post injury he was planted like a tree.
from what i've read it wasn't quite that clear-cut. his initial rehab seemed to work out pretty well. it was mainly the years 85-88 apparently that ruined him, when he had a series of injuries, quick operations, and inadequate time to heal most of them. all under the orders of the state (soviet union). just terrible...

sorry, turrible.

[iamgine]

Team USA, you mean college players?

Third year Ralph was leading the Rockets (with 2nd year Akeem) past the Showtime Lakers in their prime and took the 86 Celtics to 6 games.
I meant US olympic team. Aren't they usually called team USA?

[Harison]

Its still nothing but a myth.

Just looking at the posts above it seems as if people are talking about Sabonis like he is Bigfoot.
Do you realize the game how Sabonis was schooling USA team is available to watch? Before talking about myths, rather enjoy the show.

Its also funny to hear from some how young Sabonis wouldnt adapt or be effective in NBA, now thats a myth :oldlol: Even old Sabonis with shot legs was a solid center in NBA per 36 Min: 22/12/2.7/1.3/1.6, TS% 61.7, do you think any center wouldnt be proud of these numbers? And we are talking about barely walking grandpa, in his prime he was a beast.

About adapting - he played in 4 totally different systems in his life: USRS, Lithuanian, Spain and NBA, and everywhere adjusted perfectly.

How stars called him:

Bill Walton (who is one of the best passing centers ever) called Sabonis... "the greatest passing center of all time" :pimp:

Magic Johnson: "He can do what most big men can't. He can shoot outside, he can score inside, and he can make passes, I'm not talking passes when you get double teamed, that's the easy pass. I'm talking about guys cutting in traffic, making a nice bounce pass for the score. He has a real good feel for the game, the whole game, and you can't teach that."

Dino Radja: "That guy without his injuries, would have been better than David Robinson. Believe me, he was that good. In 1985, he was a beast. He ran the floor like Ralph Sampson, could shoot the three, dunk. He would have been a NBA all-star ten years in a row. It's true I tell you."

Vlade Divac said: "He's now 30 years old, but I remember him when I played against him when he was 21 or 22, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. I can say easy he was a better player than Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem. . . . I'm telling you, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. He was passing the ball, dribbling, shooting three-pointers, jumping. He did everything. Now he's lost his speed because of injury, but still he's a smart player. He knows basketball."

[ShaqAttack3234]

Sabonis had a great skillset. Tremendous passer, skilled scorer with a good hook shot and great perimeter shot for his size, good rebounder and he was a very good athlete for his size in his younger years.

Sampson was a good passer from the high post, he had a mid-range shot, a competent hook shoot and he was very athletic for his size.

But I'll take Sabonis. Sampson was more of a perimeter big man, Sabonis shot his fair share of jumpers as well, but used his inside game more consistently.

Most importantly, Sampson didn't seem like an intelligent player and he was still inconsistent after 3 seasons despite being 25 turning 26. With all of that talent, he seemed to make a lot of really dumb plays in a lot of the games I've seen from him. And it doesn't seem like he improved all that much in his 3 years in the NBA. I could be wrong, but I don't think he was ever going to get the most out of his potential.

[L.Kizzle]

I meant US olympic team. Aren't they usually called team USA?
Yeah, but that was before they used the pros.

This is actually a hard choice.

[iamgine]

Yeah, but that was before they used the pros.

This is actually a hard choice.
Still, a pretty good accomplishment. I don't think NBA centers were able to school Robinson even in his rookie year.

[the_wise_one]

As talented as Sampson was, if Sabonis was healthy, he'd be GOAT center.

[KevinNYC]

Still, a pretty good accomplishment. I don't think NBA centers were able to school Robinson even in his rookie year.
Well he was an old rookie, because he served his time in the Navy. He was a 24 yo rookie.

The first pro game I ever saw was when Robinson came to New York the first time.

We scalped tickets and we ended up getting two mismatched pair....we tried the worst seats first assuming we might be able to stay in them longer, but by the second quarter the people showed up, so we tried the other seats and they turned out to be sixth row. We got to our seats just as Robinson was trailing on the fast break, he jumped and seemed to bend 90 degrees backward and then ramming home a tomahawk jam as Ewing just walked out of the lane. It was crazy.

[Xsatyr]

As talented as Sampson was, if Sabonis was healthy, he'd be GOAT center.

Wow...

[ZenMaster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHhnDBlBMEE&feature=player_detailpage#t=135s

Some highlights from Sabonis' time in the NBA, long past his prime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZizsAdutYo

An amazing pass by Sabonis. You can hear the announcers giggling like little kids.

That's some classic Nash defense!

Great pass though, crazy player.

[millwad]

Do you realize the game how Sabonis was schooling USA team is available to watch? Before talking about myths, rather enjoy the show.


First of all, Sabonis didn't dominate the Dream Team, I know people have been confusing the teams. What people claim is that Sabonis dominated Robinson in the 1988 Olympics, the same Olympics where the US only had college players in it.

Robinson in that game had: 19 points, 12 rebounds, 2 steals and 2 blocks

Sabonis in that game had: 13 points, 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal and 1 block

You should watch game yourself, Sabonis didn't school Robinson...


Its also funny to hear from some how young Sabonis wouldnt adapt or be effective in NBA, now thats a myth :oldlol: Even old Sabonis with shot legs was a solid center in NBA per 36 Min: 22/12/2.7/1.3/1.6, TS% 61.7, do you think any center wouldnt be proud of these numbers? And we are talking about barely walking grandpa, in his prime he was a beast.


And Per 36 minutes is a terrible way comparing players, there's a reason why Sabonis didn't play those 36 minutes and there are plenty of players having crazy stats per 36 minutes, when they in reality wouldn't do that well if they were given those minutes in a game..



How stars called him:

Bill Walton (who is one of the best passing centers ever) called Sabonis... "the greatest passing center of all time" :pimp:

Magic Johnson: "He can do what most big men can't. He can shoot outside, he can score inside, and he can make passes, I'm not talking passes when you get double teamed, that's the easy pass. I'm talking about guys cutting in traffic, making a nice bounce pass for the score. He has a real good feel for the game, the whole game, and you can't teach that."

Dino Radja: "That guy without his injuries, would have been better than David Robinson. Believe me, he was that good. In 1985, he was a beast. He ran the floor like Ralph Sampson, could shoot the three, dunk. He would have been a NBA all-star ten years in a row. It's true I tell you."

Vlade Divac said: "He's now 30 years old, but I remember him when I played against him when he was 21 or 22, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. I can say easy he was a better player than Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem. . . . I'm telling you, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. He was passing the ball, dribbling, shooting three-pointers, jumping. He did everything. Now he's lost his speed because of injury, but still he's a smart player. He knows basketball."

Hm, yeah, when we don't actually know how good he'd been the myths start, Vlade Divac saying that he was better than Hakeem and Shaq only shows how much BS that is. And by the way, please show me the source to that quote, I doubt that Divac was that dumb..

And back to topic, I'd take Sampson, he was just amazing when he was healthy and it was a true shame his body couldn't hold up because the combo of him and Hakeem was just crushing and while Sampson put up great stats vs teams like the show-time Lakers and the Celtics feat. Parish, Bird and McHale, Sabonis faced much worse competition..

[millwad]

Still, a pretty good accomplishment. I don't think NBA centers were able to school Robinson even in his rookie year.

He didn't even school Robinson, it's a pure myth.
URS won the game with 6 points, and again, this was only a team with college players, no actual pro's.. I've seen the game and it's on youtube as well for anyone who likes to see it.


Robinson in that game had: 19 points, 12 rebounds, 2 steals and 2 blocks

Sabonis in that game had: 13 points, 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal and 1 block

Sabonis also played against the Dream Team in 1992 olypmics, that time he had 11 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assists and 2 turnovers.

He faced the Dream Team in 1996 olympics as well, that time he had 6 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist and 2 turnovers.

[Sakkreth]

If I'm not wrong

Sabonis was a PG,SG,C in a Center's body
and
Sampson was a SF in a Center's body

fixed.

This thread can't be serious.

[JohnnySic]

Sabonis easily.

Side note - Sampson wasn't really 7'4", he was more like 7'2ish" with short arms and a short torso (his height was in his legs); Sabonis may have been taller. He was certainly bigger.

[millwad]

fixed.

This thread can't be serious.

Who did Sabonis ever dominated? He is a player built by myths while playing against european players. He did never dominate David Robinson like some of you lie about and he was decent in the NBA, not great. I know he was much better before the injuries but still, his accomplishments are done while playing against non-nba players.

[millwad]

Sabonis easily.

Side note - Sampson wasn't really 7'4", he was more like 7'2ish" with short arms and a short torso (his height was in his legs); Sabonis may have been taller. He was certainly bigger.

Sabonis height was due his enormous head, I can't find another player with a huge head like that..

[JohnnySic]

Sabonis height was due his enormous head, I can't find another player with a huge head like that..
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Gp4b8omHw20/S_Cl7DyVtlI/AAAAAAAAAQk/hmtUnFrxUGA/s1600/12.jpg

[millwad]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Gp4b8omHw20/S_Cl7DyVtlI/AAAAAAAAAQk/hmtUnFrxUGA/s1600/12.jpg

Joe Kleine's head was definitely smaller than Sabas head, not even comparable..

[ZenMaster]

Who did Sabonis ever dominated? He is a player built by myths while playing against european players. He did never dominate David Robinson like some of you lie about and he was decent in the NBA, not great. I know he was much better before the injuries but still, his accomplishments are done while playing against non-nba players.

There are very few players who at 33 could go 16-10-3-1 in the NBA with the amount of injuries Sabonis had, very few.

Just look at him at 18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyzUZWVLJy8&feature=related

[Blue&Orange]

Sampson never played up to his size. Before he got injured he was a very good and promising center. He was 7'4" and in his first three seasons in the league he had about as many rebounds as Larry Bird. Look at Sabonis's and Sampson's numbers per 36 minutes. At 31, a post-injury Sabonis was rebounding at a higher rate (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sabonar01.html) than a 24 year-old pre injury Ralph Sampson.
Let me say i only know Sampson thanks to the youtube, my first impression when saw him run that court was that no way he is 7"3 or 7"4", my second impression after looking at the stats was disappointment. The guy was so tall and fast and only 20\10? That good but not so freakish as his athletic skills.

This is a great a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGJl2MfyiI

[millwad]

Let me say i only know Sampson thanks to the youtube, my first impression when saw him run that court was that no way he is 7"3 or 7"4", my second impression after looking at the stats was disappointment. The guy was so tall and fast and only 20\10? That good but not so freakish as his athletic skills.

This is a great a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGJl2MfyiI

Sampson's stats ain't really fair compared to his skills. He was really skilled but the fact that Hakeem came just after his first year made it harder for him cause he hard to share the ball with one of the best ever. And we really didn't have the opportunity to see his true prime since he got crazy injuries, Sabonis injuries ain't nothing compared to Sampsons, dude could barely walk..

[JMT]

Not trying to be a homer, but easily Sabonis.

This dude was the best passing big I've ever seen. He could stroke the 3 ball if he had to, and he had the hook shot down. A excellent free throw shooter.

I never got to see Sampson play. I don't know if he was nearly as skilled as Sabonis.

Also, at 21, Sabonis was an experienced pro. He was a few years ahead of Sampson on the learning curve.

[iamgine]

He didn't even school Robinson, it's a pure myth.
URS won the game with 6 points, and again, this was only a team with college players, no actual pro's.. I've seen the game and it's on youtube as well for anyone who likes to see it.


Robinson in that game had: 19 points, 12 rebounds, 2 steals and 2 blocks

Sabonis in that game had: 13 points, 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal and 1 block

Sabonis also played against the Dream Team in 1992 olypmics, that time he had 11 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assists and 2 turnovers.

He faced the Dream Team in 1996 olympics as well, that time he had 6 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist and 2 turnovers.
But why did a lot of people say he schooled Robinson or team USA? With stats like that I wouldn't think so.

[millwad]

Guys like Walton who played him in international ball when he was healthy say he was among the best ever.

He was an incresibly skilled player. Far more skilled than Sampson, though not as fast or quick off the floor.

International ball? To start with, when the hell did Walton play against Sabas internationally?

This is what I'm saying, Sabas career is a work of "he said, she said" rather than actual accomplishments. I'm not taking away anything of what he accomplished, he's a 8 time European player of the year, 2 time spanish MVP, 1 time european champ. MVP and the list goes on.

Though what I'm saying is, HE'S OVERRATED, he accomplished great things but it was against weak opponents.

He was decent in the NBA, no doubt, and yes, he was old and he had been injured and everything, I know. But when people talk about him they talk about quotes and "coulda and shoulda" and make up myths, like him "schooling" David Robinson when in fact he got outscored and only had a rebound or so more than DRob in the college version of DRob or they talk about him blocking DRob twice in a row..

[millwad]

But why did a lot of people say he schooled Robinson or team USA? With stats like that I wouldn't think so.

That's what I'm saying, people make up things and start false myths. David Robinson didn't get SCHOOLED at all by Sabonis but everyone says so without even watching the actual game or even the freaking boxscore..

[iamgine]

That's what I'm saying, people make up things and start false myths. David Robinson didn't get SCHOOLED at all by Sabonis but everyone says so without even watching the actual game or even the freaking boxscore..
Can you link the boxscore of that game?

[millwad]

Can you link the boxscore of that game?

Sure!

There you can check every single stat Sabonis has put up in the Olympics:

http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/sa/arvydas-sabonis-1.html

The game against DRob is the semi's of 1988's olympics.

[rodman91]

Sabonis of course.He would be one of the top centers in NBA history if he came young & stay healthy.

[millwad]

Sabonis of course.He would be one of the top centers in NBA history if he came young & stay healthy.

Just what I wrote earlier, "he would"... He dominated Europlayer, he didn't dominate NBA players in his prime, two different things..

[JMT]

This is what I'm saying, Sabas career is a work of "he said, she said" rather than actual accomplishments. I'm not taking away anything of what he accomplished, he's a 8 time European player of the year, 2 time spanish MVP, 1 time european champ. MVP and the list goes on.

..

So...the thread asks a "he said she said" question: if both were healthy 21 year olds, which would you take for 12 years?

Sampson's career was cut short, so speculation about what he could accomplish is just like that about Sabonis.

[Harison]

Robinson in that game had: 19 points, 12 rebounds, 2 steals and 2 blocks

Sabonis in that game had: 13 points, 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal and 1 block

You should watch game yourself, Sabonis didn't school Robinson...
Those stats arent entirely accurate, I dont have game stats at hand, but I do remember Sabonis had more blocks, not sure other stats are correct as well.

Regardless, if you are a basketball fan, you should know stats dont tell everything. Sabonis was offensive hub, setting up his teammates, Robinson? Not so much. Just ask Bird or Bill Walton teammates how much helps big man through whom you can run team offense, quick outlet passes, etc. You will only partially see it in stats (passes), but those dont reflect full impact. How about the fact Sabonis was helping to beat USA full court press, as well as was actively setting screens? You wont see it in stats either.

Few bits for you of pre-injury Sabonis, check out how he looked vs Robinson and why both fans and media had no doubts who schooled who, hint - it wasnt Robinson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik



And Per 36 minutes is a terrible way comparing players, there's a reason why Sabonis didn't play those 36 minutes and there are plenty of players having crazy stats per 36 minutes, when they in reality wouldn't do that well if they were given those minutes in a game.
Per36 is terrible for bench players who play limited minutes, but for superstars? Its a good indication. Yes, Sabonis didnt played 36 min. at old age, but he did play 32 min. even older when he averaged 16/10/3. As a young pre-injury player? He could play longer and be way better than 22/12/2.7 suggests.



Hm, yeah, when we don't actually know how good he'd been the myths start, Vlade Divac saying that he was better than Hakeem and Shaq only shows how much BS that is. And by the way, please show me the source to that link, I doubt that Divac was that dumb..
Actually, Sabonis by media and experts was mentioned along with Kareem, Russell, Wilt, etc. before his injuries. He had crazy upside and talent. Just because you missed it, it doesnt mean its myth. I personally dont think Sabonis was as effective volume scorer as Shaq, but as overall talent? Yes, he has an argument.

Imagine a better and taller version of Bill Walton, with better range, even better passing and more versatile, thats who Sabonis was. If Walton was MVP, Sabonis would have a good chance being multiple MVP.

You think Divac is dumb? Actually he is a very smart player, his opinion may have bias (as anyone's, including you and me), but considering Sabonis left the biggest impression to him of all centers he ever played against, it says something.

Few more quotes for you:
"People who saw him play at a young age put (Sabonis) in the top five centers of all-time, when you watch him now and think about it, you can see it, he's got the 3-point shot, the sky hook, and he can beat people off the dribble. I wish I could have played with him when he was younger and even now. He has such a great feel for the game, and a lot of the guys could benefit more from his abilities if they had a little better feel. He can read plays before they happen. He's like Bird, Magic, and Jordan in that sense. They see it a couple of plays ahead." - Mike Dunleavy

"Sabonis was simply playing a different game than everyone else on the court." Brad Greenberg, the former Blazers G.M.

[rodman91]

Sabonis vs Robinson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik&feature=related

i count 3 dunks and 2 blocks on robinson. Maybe Robinson scored more but Saba stole the show.

[rodman91]

Just what I wrote earlier, "he would"... He dominated Europlayer, he didn't dominate NBA players in his prime, two different things..

Sabonis was almost can't move when he signed up with Blazers. 31 years old rookie.

14.5 ppg and 8.1 rpg in 23.8 minutes.
23.5 ppg 10.2 rpg in first playoffs.

He had 16 ppg and 10 rpg at 33 years old. (Tim Duncan 17.9 10.1 rpg - Garnett 14.3 7.9 rpg at 33 years old )

Of course we say he would,because he has never been same player since 1988. But he had such seasons as old & almost crippled..

We have seen his skills..Dribbling,court vision,passing,blocking,shooting,hook shots.He had huge size.How many player in league history, had such skills and size?

http://img.ntv.ru/home/news/20051221/sabonis_std.jpg

Yao Ming didn't have half skills of Sabonis had and he has been best center before injuries. And Yao is a really skilled big man with a huge size.

[28renyoy]

past prime Sabonis was still an elite center. His per 36 numbers his rookie year were

22/12/3/2 62 TS% 24.7 PER .233 WSp48


Sabonis was what, 32 at the time?

32 year old Shaq posted per 36 21/11/3/3 58 TS% .192 WSp48 his final year in LA and he hadn't dealt with any injuries near Sabonis's level.


As a matter of fact in the 3 point era only 5 centers have posted higher WSp48

Kareem
Dwight
Moses Malone
Shaq
Hakeem
David Robinson

[Rowe]

Guys like Walton who played him in international ball when he was healthy say he was among the best ever.

He was an incresibly skilled player. Far more skilled than Sampson, though not as fast or quick off the floor.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Rowe]

past prime Sabonis was still an elite center. His per 36 numbers his rookie year were

22/12/3/2 62 TS% 24.7 PER .233 WSp48


Sabonis was what, 32 at the time?

32 year old Shaq posted per 36 21/11/3/3 58 TS% .192 WSp48 his final year in LA and he hadn't dealt with any injuries near Sabonis's level.


As a matter of fact in the 3 point era only 5 centers have posted higher WSp48

Kareem
Dwight
Moses Malone
Shaq
Hakeem
David Robinson

Dude, stop with the per 36 minutes BS.

Per 36 minutes is a worhless stat to use considering it doesnt account for pace or fatigue because it isnt reflective of reality. I mean seriously you're comparing a guy who never played 36 minutes per game to Shaq who put up dominant numbers while playing 36 MPG.

Get off of basketball reference running Sabonis through the searches.

You're really using Win Share per 48? :oldlol: Another worthless stat based on projections that have nothing to do with reality.

Since you're really heavily on basketball reference, how about you look at the actual Win Share stat to the left.:oldlol:

[Rowe]

So...the thread asks a "he said she said" question: if both were healthy 21 year olds, which would you take for 12 years?

Sampson's career was cut short, so speculation about what he could accomplish is just like that about Sabonis.

Sampson has 3 prime years in the NBA to go off as a source.

There is enough proof there to project that he would've continued on at the same pace without his injuries.

Everything about Sabonis is someone claiming he would've been incredible or dominant had he played in the NBA 10 years before he actually arrived.

There is no proof to back that up because he was dominating an inferior league at the time over in Europe. He never played in the NBA, so there is nothing to go off of.

[28renyoy]

Dude, stop with the per 36 minutes BS.

Per 36 minutes is a worhless stat to use considering it doesnt account for pace or fatigue because it isnt reflective of reality. I mean seriously you're comparing a guy who never played 36 minutes per game to Shaq who put up dominant numbers while playing 36 MPG.

Get off of basketball reference running Sabonis through the searches.

You're really using Win Share per 48? :oldlol: Another worthless stat based on projections that have nothing to do with reality.

Since you're really heavily on basketball reference, how about you look at the actual Win Share stat to the left.:oldlol:

uhh...the guy couldn't stay on the court for more than 25 mpg due to injuries sustained earlier in his career.

the time he was on the court, he was an elite center producing at shaq's level at that age

[millwad]

Sabonis vs Robinson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik&feature=related

i count 3 dunks and 2 blocks on robinson. Maybe Robinson scored more but Saba stole the show.

No, people hanging on Sabas nuts claim that he stole the show, he didn't. And that was the college version of Robinson, people claiming he schooled Robinson are just biased and pathetic, I bet you haven't even seen the game. I actually have seen the game and Sabas didn't outplay Robinson at all, that's a pure myth built up by european fans, I'm european myself and I call it BULLSHIT.

[Sakkreth]

No, people hanging on Sabas nuts claim that he stole the show, he didn't. And that was the college version of Robinson, people claiming he schooled Robinson are just biased and pathetic, I bet you haven't even seen the game. I actually have seen the game and Sabas didn't outplay Robinson at all, that's a pure myth built up by european fans, I'm european myself and I call it BULLSHIT.

You didn't :facepalm

Also Sabas is only half year older than Robinson, so college Robinson is bad excuse.
Ohh and btw stop taking stats and facts out of ur ass.

[L.Kizzle]

You didn't :facepalm

Also Sabas is only half year older than Robinson, so college Robinson is bad excuse.
Ohh and btw stop taking stats and facts out of ur ass.
Half year older, but was a pro since the early 80s I believe. Sabonis was playing the best of the best his country had to offer at what 17-18 years old. Robinson was playing vs high school students at that age.

[millwad]

Sabonis was almost can't move when he signed up with Blazers. 31 years old rookie.

14.5 ppg and 8.1 rpg in 23.8 minutes.
23.5 ppg 10.2 rpg in first playoffs.

He had 16 ppg and 10 rpg at 33 years old. (Tim Duncan 17.9 10.1 rpg - Garnett 14.3 7.9 rpg at 33 years old )

Of course we say he would,because he has never been same player since 1988. But he had such seasons as old & almost crippled..

We have seen his skills..Dribbling,court vision,passing,blocking,shooting,hook shots.He had huge size.How many player in league history, had such skills and size?

http://img.ntv.ru/home/news/20051221/sabonis_std.jpg

Yao Ming didn't have half skills of Sabonis had and he has been best center before injuries. And Yao is a really skilled big man with a huge size.

Now you're on thin ice, it's fun how everyone's saying that he hasn't been the same player since 1988..

That's the same freaking year David Robinson outscored him in Olympics, if that was Sabas at his best he really doesn't have much to come with. And it's bullshit as well, Sabas retired in 2005, how can a player get so injured but still being able to play 17 years more..

[rodman91]

No, people hanging on Sabas nuts claim that he stole the show, he didn't. And that was the college version of Robinson, people claiming he schooled Robinson are just biased and pathetic, I bet you haven't even seen the game. I actually have seen the game and Sabas didn't outplay Robinson at all, that's a pure myth built up by european fans, I'm european myself and I call it BULLSHIT.
Robinson is only one years old younger than Sabonis.

Drexler on Sabonis, when he has been asked what woud happen if Sabonis came Trailblazers in 86.

"We would have had four, five or six titles. Guaranteed. He was that good. He could pass, shoot three pointers, had a great post game, and dominated the paint. And he would have been younger. He was very effective in the NBA as an older player who had suffered an ankle injury."

No disrespect to Yao, but he was pretty dominant for a while before injuries.I doubt If much more skilled&coordinated and almost same size Sabonis couldn't.

[IGOTGAME]

Now you're on thin ice, it's fun how everyone's saying that he hasn't been the same player since 1988..

That's the same freaking year David Robinson outscored him in Olympics, if that was Sabas at his best he really doesn't have much to come with. And it's bullshit as well, Sabas retired in 2005, how can a player get so injured but still being able to play 17 years more..

because he was that good to begin with. Some things dont go away with injuries:

-basketball iq
-height and length
-shooting and skill work
-passing and court vision

Sabonis had all of these in spades. He was playing on a different level mentally than most nba players.

[Harison]

Half year older, but was a pro since the early 80s I believe. Sabonis was playing the best of the best his country had to offer at what 17-18 years old. Robinson was playing vs high school students at that age.
Isnt US college and NBA basketball and training the best in the World? Those poor "pro" Russians should be a weak competition. :oldlol: Either one has to admit US basketball isnt be-all end-all, and then prop Soviets, or admit same age Robinson and Sabonis situations werent much different. Cant have it both ways "oh, Sabonis played with pros at 18!", in next post "he was playing against weaklings in EU so his career there doesnt count" :rolleyes:

[Harison]

Now you're on thin ice, it's fun how everyone's saying that he hasn't been the same player since 1988..

That's the same freaking year David Robinson outscored him in Olympics, if that was Sabas at his best he really doesn't have much to come with. And it's bullshit as well, Sabas retired in 2005, how can a player get so injured but still being able to play 17 years more..
You really dont get scoring isnt everything? :rolleyes: And no, he wasnt at his best in '88, he had Achilles' tendon injury in '86. Because of poor treatment and Soviets rushed him back on the floor before a full recovery, it took its toll on his body. Many injuries followed, etc.

Since you didnt know that, its obvious you were too young to watch pre-injury Sabonis (or maybe wasnt even born yet), so everything to you about him is a myth.

Its remarkable how Sabonis after so many heavy injuries was still playing through pain in NBA. His body was in much worse shape at 33 than Duncan this season, and yet played better than him. 16/10/3 is obviously better than 13.4/8.9/2.7. So if Sabonis is overrated, then what Duncan is? Even more overrated? :oldlol: Nonsense, neither are overrated, if anything, Sabonis is underrated, those who knew what he could (players, trainers, experts) were praising him non-stop, not everyone gets such high props.

You can say its their opinion, same applies to you, difference is, their opinion actually matter.

[ZenMaster]

Now you're on thin ice, it's fun how everyone's saying that he hasn't been the same player since 1988..

That's the same freaking year David Robinson outscored him in Olympics, if that was Sabas at his best he really doesn't have much to come with. And it's bullshit as well, Sabas retired in 2005, how can a player get so injured but still being able to play 17 years more..

That's the whole point,you'd have to be so unbelievably skilled in order to do that. Hence why people think he'd be one of the greatest if he wasn't injured.

[millwad]

Robinson is only one years old younger than Sabonis.

Drexler on Sabonis, when he has been asked what woud happen if Sabonis came Trailblazers in 86.

"We would have had four, five or six titles. Guaranteed. He was that good. He could pass, shoot three pointers, had a great post game, and dominated the paint. And he would have been younger. He was very effective in the NBA as an older player who had suffered an ankle injury."

No disrespect to Yao, but he was pretty dominant for a while before injuries.I doubt If much more skilled&coordinated and almost same size Sabonis couldn't.

I don't care what Drexler thinks, he's the same dude who called Rudy Gay a top 8 player in the league... And again, rather than true accomplishments we talk about quotes..

[Harison]

That's the whole point,you'd have to be so unbelievably skilled in order to do that. Hence why people think he'd be one of the greatest if he wasn't injured.
Not only that, but one also has to be a true warrior to play every game through a pain. Very few can do that.

[millwad]

That's the whole point,you'd have to be so unbelievably skilled in order to do that. Hence why people think he'd be one of the greatest if he wasn't injured.

Come on, there's been players more skilled than him who's had freak injuries ending their careers. It's not about skills because there are plenty of guys with more skills who's retired way earlier than 17 freaking years earlier..

[Harison]

I don't care what Drexler thinks, he's the same dude who called Rudy Gay a top 8 player in the league... And again, rather than true accomplishments we talk about quotes..
Yeah, who cares what all those stars and superstars think, along with all experts and trainers, only important what some anonymous poster on ISH thinks! :rolleyes:

Sabonis accomplishments are just fine, he is already in HoF, even though majority of his achievements were in EU and Olympics.

[millwad]

You really dont get scoring isnt everything? :rolleyes: And no, he wasnt at his best in '88, he had Achilles' tendon injury in '86. Because of poor treatment and Soviets rushed him back on the floor before a full recovery, it took its toll on his body. Many injuries followed, etc.

Since you didnt know that, its obvious you were too young to watch pre-injury Sabonis (or maybe wasnt even born yet), so everything to you about him is a myth.

Its remarkable how Sabonis after so many heavy injuries was still playing through pain in NBA. His body was in much worse shape at 33 than Duncan this season, and yet played better than him. 16/10/3 is obviously better than 13.4/8.9/2.7. So if Sabonis is overrated, then what Duncan is? Even more overrated? :oldlol: Nonsense, neither are overrated, if anything, Sabonis is underrated, those who knew what he could (players, trainers, experts) were praising him non-stop, not everyone gets such high props.

You can say its their opinion, same applies to you, difference is, their opinion actually matter.

Please, I quoted that one guy saying that Sabonis was at his best in 88, I can't do anything about you not being able to understand the context of the comment..

Oh, yeah, so now Sabonis is better than Tim Duncan?

And if you're gonna make a statement by comparing a 33 year old Duncan to a 33 year old Sabonis, at least do it right..

Tim Duncan at the age of 33 averaged: 17.9 points (on 52% shooting), 10.1 rebounds, 3.2 assists and 1.5 block.

Sabonis at the age of 33 averaged: 16 points (on 49% shooting), 10 rebounds, 3 assists and 1.1 block.

And tell me why Sabonis is "UNDERRATED", his career is built up by myths and "he said, she said" crap than actual accomplishments. Look, what Sabas did in Europe was amazing and he will always be remembered for that but considering the fact how full this thread is with quotes instead of accomplishments it's pretty obvious that he is a product of sayings rather than plays...

And what now, I know about Sabonis injury in 86 but the dude was 22 by that time, are you claiming that he was at his best in 86?

And dumbass, I know scoring isn't everything but it's a pure myth that he dominated college-version of Robinson when in fact he didn't, not on the boxscore and not in the game, I have seen the game and only an idiot would claim that he schooled Robinson..

[millwad]

Yeah, who cares what all those stars and superstars think, along with all experts and trainers, only important what some anonymous poster on ISH thinks! :rolleyes:

Sabonis accomplishments are just fine, he is already in HoF, even though majority of his achievements were in EU and Olympics.

All his his accomplishments were in the EU and the Olympics, the only thing he managed to do in the NBA was to be in the all-rookie first team.

[millwad]

because he was that good to begin with. Some things dont go away with injuries:

-basketball iq
-height and length
-shooting and skill work
-passing and court vision

Sabonis had all of these in spades. He was playing on a different level mentally than most nba players.

All those things are standard in the NBA.

[millwad]

uhh...the guy couldn't stay on the court for more than 25 mpg due to injuries sustained earlier in his career.

the time he was on the court, he was an elite center producing at shaq's level at that age

Haha, to even claim that he was an elite center producing at Shaq's level shows how stupid you are.

[millwad]

Dude, stop with the per 36 minutes BS.

Per 36 minutes is a worhless stat to use considering it doesnt account for pace or fatigue because it isnt reflective of reality. I mean seriously you're comparing a guy who never played 36 minutes per game to Shaq who put up dominant numbers while playing 36 MPG.

Get off of basketball reference running Sabonis through the searches.

You're really using Win Share per 48? :oldlol: Another worthless stat based on projections that have nothing to do with reality.

Since you're really heavily on basketball reference, how about you look at the actual Win Share stat to the left.:oldlol:

What he said:applause: ...

It's pathetic how you try to twist and turn everything just to make him look better than he really was. There's a reason why he didn't play 36 minutes a game and to even compare his 36 minutes per game to another player who actually played the 36 minutes a game is just retarded.

[Harison]

Please, I quoted that one guy saying that Sabonis was at his best in 88, I can't do anything about you not being able to understand the context of the comment..

So "it's fun how everyone's saying that he hasn't been the same player since 1988" becomes "one guy". Yeah, surely its not you who cant understand the context :oldlol:



Oh, yeah, so now Sabonis is better than Tim Duncan?

And if you're gonna make a statement by comparing a 33 year old Duncan to a 33 year old Sabonis, at least do it right..
Speaking about context, you got it wrong as always. Plus no common sense either. Player age vs same age not necessarily comparable, but its beyond your comprehension. Hence my point "His body was in much worse shape at 33 than Duncan this season, and yet played better than him." which you're unable to refute.



Tim Duncan at the age of 33 averaged: 17.9 points (on 52% shooting), 10.1 rebounds, 3.2 assists and 1.5 block.

Sabonis at the age of 33 averaged: 16 points (on 49% shooting), 10 rebounds, 3 assists and 1.1 block.
For a player who didnt had major injuries it actually looks pretty bad when comparing vs broken down player after a series of major injuries. You probably cant comprehend that either.



And tell me why Sabonis is "UNDERRATED", his career is built up by myths and "he said, she said" crap than actual accomplishments. Look, what Sabas did in Europe was amazing and he will always be remembered for that but considering the fact how full this thread is with quotes instead of accomplishments it's pretty obvious that he is a product of sayings rather than plays...
Thats your ignorant and uninformed opinion only.



And dumbass, I know scoring isn't everything but it's a pure myth that he dominated college-version of Robinson when in fact he didn't, not on the boxscore and not in the game, I have seen the game and only an idiot would claim that he schooled Robinson..
No, you dont understand stats arent everything, your all arguments are based on that, which I refuted earlier.

He schooled Robinson just fine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

[Euroleague]

Sabonis is ridiculously overrated by NBA fans. They have created this imaginary myth about how good he was in Europe. It's just as out of touch with reality as the same myth they have created about how good the NBA supposedly is.

Schmidt, Kukoc, Divac, Galis, Petrovic, McAdoo, Marciulonis were all as good, or some of them better than Sabonis was in Europe in that time.

It is another NBA only fan created myth that Sabonis was some kind of superman in Europe then. Hell, I think Sabonis was about in the same class of player as Giannakis was in that time.

He sure the hell was not in the same class as Schmidt, Petrovic, and Galis back then. At best, you could claim him as the #4 player in Europe in the 80s.

In the 90s, Kukoc was better.

[millwad]

So "it's fun how everyone's saying that he hasn't been the same player since 1988" becomes "one guy". Yeah, surely its not you who cant understand the context :oldlol:

Kid, don't get pathetic now.. Read the thread.



Speaking about context, you got it wrong as always. Plus no common sense either. Player age vs same age not necessarily comparable, but its beyond your comprehension. Hence my point "His body was in much worse shape at 33 than Duncan this season, and yet played better than him." which you're unable to refute.

No, those are his stats compared to Duncan at that age, you typed his stas from when he was 34 to make Sabonis look better, silly..





He schooled Robinson just fine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

Based on a video showing his highlights? That's actually footage from '86 and if he now dominated Robinson, tell me his stats from that game compared to Robinson's. Let me guess, you have no bloody idea, you base your opinion on a youtube video, retard..

[LA_Showtime]

Yao Ming.

[Round Mound]

This is what Sabonis was before injuries prior to 1987

He totally destroyed Robinson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

[rodman91]

Sabonis is ridiculously overrated by NBA fans. They have created this imaginary myth about how good he was in Europe. It's just as out of touch with reality as the same myth they have created about how good the NBA supposedly is.

Schmidt, Kukoc, Divac, Galis, Petrovic, McAdoo, Marciulonis were all as good, or some of them better than Sabonis was in Europe in that time.

It is another NBA only fan created myth that Sabonis was some kind of superman in Europe then. Hell, I think Sabonis was about in the same class of player as Giannakis was in that time.

He sure the hell was not in the same class as Schmidt, Petrovic, and Galis back then. At best, you could claim him as the #4 player in Europe in the 80s.

In the 90s, Kukoc was better.

Kukoc at 30, giving 19 ppg.He could do more when he was younger.
Petrovic at 28, giving 22.3 ppg before death.He was getting better every year.
Schmidt had 45 points on USA national team.
Galis had 50 points on young Jordan.3rd scorer in NCAA (Larry Bird slight scored better)

These guys are great players, they all could be much better place in NBA. Only petrovic had chance to show himself one or two year and he was one of the best guards in those years.Schmidt and Galis could be too.

So its not like these guys couldn't be elite nba players. Red Auerbach said his single biggest mistake was not keeping Galis in NBA.

Sabonis was less scorer than Petrovic,Schmidt and Galis..They were guards who took a lot of shots for their team.However he had sheer size none of them had.He was one of the most skilled big men.

Today's league Yao Ming did very well.He was giving 26.8 ppg at one point before injuries.A healthy,young sabonis could do as good as elite centers of 90's.What Yao had Sabonis didn't? It's not so hard to see, Sabonis was much more skilled than Yao.He was almost as big as Yao.

If Dirk stayed at Europe instead of NBA, he would be another european legend and then considered as myth.Now he is considered as one of the best PFs all time.

What if Sabonis were young and healty in NBA..What if Galis stayed in NBA? What if Petrovic didn't die? Who knows.. but they weren't less players than other NBA legends.

[Rowe]

uhh...the guy couldn't stay on the court for more than 25 mpg due to injuries sustained earlier in his career.

the time he was on the court, he was an elite center producing at shaq's level at that age

He wasnt producing at Shaq's level because he didnt have the role or the consistent production that Shaq brought you. Take it for what it was that he came over as nothing more than a role player. You cant re-write history pretending he was supposed to be an NBA great if he played 10 years before.

Its just simply ridiculous to even argue it.

[Rowe]

This is what Sabonis was before injuries prior to 1987

He totally destroyed Robinson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

Look a few pages back.

Stop with this BS story of him destroying Robinson.

[millwad]

Look a few pages back.

Stop with this BS story of him destroying Robinson.

I agree, pure BS...
The funny thing is that people try to make that video to some kind of proof of Robinson being dominated by Sabas... Ask them for a boxscore or even footage of the actual game and they won't have a freaking clue about the fact that URS actually lost that game and that Robinson didn't get "schooled".

Even when I posted the boxscore from the '88 meeting people still claimed he "schooled" Robinson which is just absurd and again their proof was a crappy youtube-video of him dunking a ball and some random moves..

The dude accomplished great things in Europe but he's getting credit due myths and quotes, rather than getting credit for his actual dominance.

[millwad]

Kukoc at 30, giving 19 ppg.He could do more when he was younger.
Petrovic at 28, giving 22.3 ppg before death.He was getting better every year.
Schmidt had 45 points on USA national team.
Galis had 50 points on young Jordan.3rd scorer in NCAA (Larry Bird slight scored better)

These guys are great players, they all could be much better place in NBA. Only petrovic had chance to show himself one or two year and he was one of the best guards in those years.Schmidt and Galis could be too.

So its not like these guys couldn't be elite nba players. Red Auerbach said his single biggest mistake was not keeping Galis in NBA.

Sabonis was less scorer than Petrovic,Schmidt and Galis..They were guards who took a lot of shots for their team.However he had sheer size none of them had.He was one of the most skilled big men.

Today's league Yao Ming did very well.He was giving 26.8 ppg at one point before injuries.A healthy,young sabonis could do as good as elite centers of 90's.What Yao had Sabonis didn't? It's not so hard to see, Sabonis was much more skilled than Yao.He was almost as big as Yao.

If Dirk stayed at Europe instead of NBA, he would be another european legend and then considered as myth.Now he is considered as one of the best PFs all time.

What if Sabonis were young and healty in NBA..What if Galis stayed in NBA? What if Petrovic didn't die? Who knows.. but they weren't less players than other NBA legends.

You know what the difference is between Dirk and Sabas?
Dirk actually dominated the best of the best, he played in the best league and against the best players and won, Sabas played in a league were the level of talent was much lower than what the NBA was.

When he faced the US internationally the myth started, according to alot of people he "killed" David Robinson when he faced him and the college team USA sent to the '88 olympics.

Yeah, right.. He really crushed David Robinson with his 13 points and 13 rebounds in that game and especially since the college-version of DRob put up 19 points and 12 rebounds on him.

In the Olympics he faced the US two times more, in '92 he put up 11 points and 8 rebounds and in '96 he put up 6 points and 2 rebounds.. Are you gonna compare these 3 games to Schmidt's 45 point game and Gallis 50 point game?

[KevinNYC]

I think Yao Ming is a very good comparison for Arvydas because they are almost the same size. Was there any aspect of the game that Yao was better than a healthy Sabonis.

I didnt see much of young Yao, but it appears to me that Arvydas is significant quicker and more agile.

So take Yao+add more skills+higher bball IQ+quicker and more agile. This is why people were raving about Sabonis.

[iamgine]

Sabonis' average in 97-98, counting only games when he played more than 32 minutes is roughly:

40 games
36 minutes
19 Points 59 TS%
11 Rebounds
3 Assists
1 Steal
1 Block

That's easily rivals top 5 center at the time. I think had he came to the NBA earlier and had no significant injury he'd been top 5 player every season. But not the GOAT as some claim though. Maybe he can be between Robinson and Shaq level.

[Da KO King]

I'll take Ralph Sampson. "Prime-Arvydas Sabonis" is this mythical creature that does not stand up to the reality of Sabonis pre-NBA.

I'm always amused how people who get offended by my view on Sabonis use the "experts say..." defense as though "experts" didn't make Kwame Brown and Greg Oden the first overall picks in their drafts.

[Euroleague]

Kukoc at 30, giving 19 ppg.He could do more when he was younger.
Petrovic at 28, giving 22.3 ppg before death.He was getting better every year.
Schmidt had 45 points on USA national team.
Galis had 50 points on young Jordan.3rd scorer in NCAA (Larry Bird slight scored better)

These guys are great players, they all could be much better place in NBA. Only petrovic had chance to show himself one or two year and he was one of the best guards in those years.Schmidt and Galis could be too.

So its not like these guys couldn't be elite nba players. Red Auerbach said his single biggest mistake was not keeping Galis in NBA.

Sabonis was less scorer than Petrovic,Schmidt and Galis..They were guards who took a lot of shots for their team.However he had sheer size none of them had.He was one of the most skilled big men.

Today's league Yao Ming did very well.He was giving 26.8 ppg at one point before injuries.A healthy,young sabonis could do as good as elite centers of 90's.What Yao had Sabonis didn't? It's not so hard to see, Sabonis was much more skilled than Yao.He was almost as big as Yao.

If Dirk stayed at Europe instead of NBA, he would be another european legend and then considered as myth.Now he is considered as one of the best PFs all time.

What if Sabonis were young and healty in NBA..What if Galis stayed in NBA? What if Petrovic didn't die? Who knows.. but they weren't less players than other NBA legends.
:cheers:


I never said they were worse than NBA players. I said that NBA fans have created a myth that Sabonis was the by far and away best player in Europe in that time. He was not. He was not even the best player in Europe then. That is what I meant. Of course those guys could play in NBA.

Schmidt and Galis would have wrecked the NBA.

[Euroleague]

You know what the difference is between Dirk and Sabas?
Dirk actually dominated the best of the best, he played in the best league and against the best players and won, Sabas played in a league were the level of talent was much lower than what the NBA was.

When he faced the US internationally the myth started, according to alot of people he "killed" David Robinson when he faced him and the college team USA sent to the '88 olympics.

Yeah, right.. He really crushed David Robinson with his 13 points and 13 rebounds in that game and especially since the college-version of DRob put up 19 points and 12 rebounds on him.

In the Olympics he faced the US two times more, in '92 he put up 11 points and 8 rebounds and in '96 he put up 6 points and 2 rebounds.. Are you gonna compare these 3 games to Schmidt's 45 point game and Gallis 50 point game?

You seriously overrate the level of the current NBA.

[Doko]

Sabonis is ridiculously overrated by NBA fans. They have created this imaginary myth about how good he was in Europe. It's just as out of touch with reality as the same myth they have created about how good the NBA supposedly is.

Schmidt, Kukoc, Divac, Galis, Petrovic, McAdoo, Marciulonis were all as good, or some of them better than Sabonis was in Europe in that time.

It is another NBA only fan created myth that Sabonis was some kind of superman in Europe then. Hell, I think Sabonis was about in the same class of player as Giannakis was in that time.

He sure the hell was not in the same class as Schmidt, Petrovic, and Galis back then. At best, you could claim him as the #4 player in Europe in the 80s.

In the 90s, Kukoc was better.

Actually I don't know where you live in Europe, but here Sabonis is always regarded as one of the top 2/3 european players of all times.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Actually I don't know where you live in Europe, but here Sabonis is always regarded as one of the top 2/3 european players of all times.
Where?In Lithuania?He's not the best lithuanian player let alone european.
He's been regarded as the player who could been the best of all time if...

[millwad]

Sabonis' average in 97-98, counting only games when he played more than 32 minutes is roughly:

40 games
36 minutes
19 Points 59 TS%
11 Rebounds
3 Assists
1 Steal
1 Block

That's easily rivals top 5 center at the time. I think had he came to the NBA earlier and had no significant injury he'd been top 5 player every season. But not the GOAT as some claim though. Maybe he can be between Robinson and Shaq level.

Again, you are playing with the statistics to try to make Sabonis better than he was. Obviously if he got that much in playing time it must have been the games he played good but that doesn't show the truth, that's like taking away the game where he played less good and then compare him to the rest of the players.

In fact, in '98 he averaged 16 points (on 49% shooting..), 10 rebounds, 3 assists and 1 block.

And no, that's not the stats of a top 5 center at that time, there where more than 5 center better than that, here's a few of them at that time;

David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'neal, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, Patrick Ewing etc...

Haha, and no, Sabas wouldn't have been a top 5 player in the NBA every year, stop with the bs.. Let me guess, you're gonna prove your point by giving us some quotes about how great he'd been, :roll:

[Doko]

Where?In Lithuania?He's not the best lithuanian player let alone european.
He's been regarded as the player who could been the best of all time if...

Do I look lithuanian to you son? :no:

[iamgine]

Obviously if he got that much in playing time it must have been the games he played good but that doesn't show the truth, that's like taking away the game where he played less good and then compare him to the rest of the players.

I don't get how you come to this conclusion. For me, that shows the games where he's healthy enough to play for a longer time. In fact doesn't playing longer supposedly decrease efficiency?

As for the top 5, that's my own conclusion. You can have your own.

[millwad]

I don't get how you come to this conclusion. For me, that shows the games where he's healthy enough to play for a longer time. In fact doesn't playing longer supposedly decrease efficiency?

As for the top 5, that's my own conclusion. You can have your own.

Come on, "healthy enough"?
He played freaking 73 games that season..

Your top 5 must be really shitty then, Sabas didn't have a better season than Shaq, Dikembe (DPOY and all-star), Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon or Mourning. Only an extremely biased person would claim so..

Sabonis career is more a "what could have been" rather than "what would have happened if he was allowed to play in the NBA". He just wasn't as dominant as you guys claim, I don't know if you've seen the games he played because you're the same guy that thought he schooled Robinson until I showed you the boxscore. When people talk about Sabonis they talk about myths and quotes rather than actual accomplishments..

[iamgine]

Come on, "healthy enough"?
He played freaking 73 games that season..

Your top 5 must be really shitty then, Sabas didn't have a better season than Shaq, Dikembe (DPOY and all-star), Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon or Mourning. Only an extremely biased person would claim so..

Sabonis career is more a "what could have been" rather than "what would have happened if he was allowed to play in the NBA". He just wasn't as dominant as you guys claim, I don't know if you've seen the games he played because you're the same guy that thought he schooled Robinson until I showed you the boxscore. When people talk about Sabonis they talk about myths and quotes rather than actual accomplishments..
I said when counting only those games he played 32 minutes and above. He played 73 games but only 40 of them are above 32 minutes.

He did have multiple bad injuries & surgeries and if he was still able to produce like that, I think it stands to reason he'd be top 5 without the injuries. It's okay if you disagree.

[millwad]

I said when counting only those games he played 32 minutes and above. He played 73 games but only 40 of them are above 32 minutes.

He did have multiple bad injuries & surgeries and if he was still able to produce like that, I think it stands to reason he'd be top 5 without the injuries. It's okay if you disagree.

That's cool.
Though in my eyes he's one of the most overrated players of all-time. I get you if you talk about what could have been if he'd been free from injuries but other people claiming he's top 5 of all-time on the center position based on his accomplishments are nuts.

I don't know if you've noticed it but reading this thread it feels like we're talking about Wilt or someone from that era, all the myths and all the stories and quotes explaining the guy's greatness. No need of that now, Sabonis freaking played in the same era as Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. No need of quotes or myths, everything he did is on tape and all his accomplishments are in the history books. Like, it doesn't work to start a bubble with myths and quotes about the dude because it's so easy to put a hole in the bubble, like the so called "schooling" of David Robinson.

If people wanna talk about what could have been, knock yourself out but mixing myths and quotes to make a point of how great he was doesn't work..

[iamgine]

His NBA production in 97-98 whenever playing more than 32 minutes were pretty great. A 20-10 guy with great efficiency and superb passing ability. Arguably top 5 center worthy in that season. His time in the NBA and olympics also showed that he was a very skilled big man despite his 7'3 frame. Now if we couple those with the fact that he was an old man with bum knees when he made those accomplishment, it should stand to reason that his younger & healthier self should be pretty great.

[NugzHeat3]

Wasn't 80s Sabonis an athletic beast who ran up the floor, took poundings ect ect?

How can one fathom him staying healthy for so long with such a playing style?

It's like the drawback with Ginobili. You can't play him heavy minutes and expect him to stay healthy throughout the season because he has such a wreckless playing style.

[millwad]

Wasn't 80s Sabonis an athletic beast who ran up the floor, took poundings ect ect?

How can one fathom him staying healthy for so long with such a playing style?

It's like the drawback with Ginobili. You can't play him heavy minutes and expect him to stay healthy throughout the season because he has such a wreckless playing style.

First of all, I'm pretty sure there are centers who took much worse poundings in all than Sabonis ever did...

And the thing is not even about him getting injured, it's about people who claim that he was like one of the greatest of all times and people try to back their crap up with youtube videos and myths and quotes rather than actual accomplishments. The thing is also that people always are excusing him for getting injured, no other player has gotten so many excuses for being injured. Just face it, the dude is overrated.. He was a great center but not what some of you think he is..

I think I'm gonna puke if I see someone else back up biased crap about Sabas with some random youtube-clips or quotes..

[millwad]

His NBA production in 97-98 whenever playing more than 32 minutes were pretty great. A 20-10 guy with great efficiency and superb passing ability. Arguably top 5 center worthy in that season. His time in the NBA and olympics also showed that he was a very skilled big man despite his 7'3 frame. Now if we couple those with the fact that he was an old man with bum knees when he made those accomplishment, it should stand to reason that his younger & healthier self should be pretty great.

Come on, stop with your bs...
First of all, this 32 minutes crap is a terrible way of comparing him to other players. It doesn't show the whole truth so quit it, please. And to call him a 20-10 guy in 97-98 is just retarded since the dude only had 19 games when he scored 20 points or more and grabbed 10 or more rebounds, OUT OF 73 games...

The injuries are excuses, guys like Ewing and Olajuwon had bodies looking like corpses compared to their primes and still they managed to play better than Sabonis did and they were older as well.

Bottom line, compare the players without trying to make Sabas look better than he really did.

[iamgine]

Come on, stop with your bs...
First of all, this 32 minutes crap is a terrible way of comparing him to other players. It doesn't show the whole truth so quit it, please. And to call him a 20-10 guy in 97-98 is just retarded since the dude only had 19 games when he scored 20 points or more and grabbed 10 or more rebounds, OUT OF 73 games...

The injuries are excuses, guys like Ewing and Olajuwon had bodies looking like corpses compared to their primes and still they managed to play better than Sabonis did and they were older as well.

Bottom line, compare the players without trying to make Sabas look better than he really did.
It's okay if you think it's bs. We don't have to agree. I think the 32 minutes makes sense because it represents his true ability at the time when given the minutes. I think Sabas was much more injured than his peers due to his huge body and unhealed injuries. Once again, it's okay for you to disagree. It's good to have other points of view.

[millwad]

It's okay if you think it's bs. We don't have to agree. I think the 32 minutes makes sense because it represents his true ability at the time when given the minutes. I think Sabas was much more injured than his peers due to his huge body and unhealed injuries. Once again, it's okay for you to disagree. It's good to have other points of view.

Haha, you're so democratic and polite, not often you see that on this site.
Yeah, I guess we disagree. Bottom line, the guy was terrific either way.

[rodman91]

You know what the difference is between Dirk and Sabas?
Dirk actually dominated the best of the best, he played in the best league and against the best players and won, Sabas played in a league were the level of talent was much lower than what the NBA was.

When he faced the US internationally the myth started, according to alot of people he "killed" David Robinson when he faced him and the college team USA sent to the '88 olympics.

Yeah, right.. He really crushed David Robinson with his 13 points and 13 rebounds in that game and especially since the college-version of DRob put up 19 points and 12 rebounds on him.

In the Olympics he faced the US two times more, in '92 he put up 11 points and 8 rebounds and in '96 he put up 6 points and 2 rebounds.. Are you gonna compare these 3 games to Schmidt's 45 point game and Gallis 50 point game?

I hope you mentioned Euroleague, not NBA. Because late 90's and early 00's had much better talent than today.

Also stop saying college version.David Robinson was 22.Sabonis was 23.There is no difference in age.Sabonis could be college player if he was American.

Soviet teams were stacked.So its almost impossible to score like Schmidt's team.Even if somebody score, it would be probably a wing player.Even super high scoring USA team's didn't have one profilic scorer.

92 and 96 are useless because Sabonis already had those injuries.He was in slow-motion. Also nobody could do anything to 92&96 dream teams,especially in inside. I doubt Robinson could have better games against such teams.Since he had 9 and 12 ppg in those teams. (team that average more than 110 ppg)

These are Facts.Not Myths:

USSR were as good as USA in 1986 and better in 1988.He was one of the main force of the team at 23 years old.Those USA teams weren't dream team but they had many NBA all stars..

He had major injuries before 90's.Still he had one of the best career in Europe.
At 31, in his rookie season, in 23.8 minutes,14.5 ppg & 8.1 rpg.
At 33, in 32 minutes, 16 ppg & 10 rpg.
At 39-40, he won euroleague regular season MVP.

He has been still one of the best basketball players when you don't count NBA as only league in world. Question is how good he would be if he could able to stay healthy. I agree with other NBA legends,players&writers from what i watched.He was superskilled big man but almost crippled.

If Yao managed so well before injuries,healthy Sabonis could do much better.It's not a brainer.

[Sakkreth]

I hope you mentioned Euroleague, not NBA. Because late 90's and early 00's had much better talent than today.

Also stop saying college version.David Robinson was 22.Sabonis was 23.There is no difference in age.Sabonis could be college player if he was American.

Soviet teams were stacked.So its almost impossible to score like Schmidt's team.Even if somebody score, it would be probably a wing player.Even super high scoring USA team's didn't have one profilic scorer.

92 and 96 are useless because Sabonis already had those injuries.He was in slow-motion. Also nobody could do anything to 92&96 dream teams,especially in inside. I doubt Robinson could have better games against such teams.Since he had 9 and 12 ppg in those teams. (team that average more than 110 ppg)

These are Facts.Not Myths:

USSR were as good as USA in 1986 and better in 1988.He was one of the main force of the team at 23 years old.Those USA teams weren't dream team but they had many NBA all stars..

He had major injuries before 90's.Still he had one of the best career in Europe.
At 31, in his rookie season, in 23.8 minutes,14.5 ppg & 8.1 rpg.
At 33, in 32 minutes, 16 ppg & 10 rpg.
At 39-40, he won euroleague regular season MVP.

He has been still one of the best basketball players when you don't count NBA as only league in world. Question is how good he would be if he could able to stay healthy. I agree with other NBA legends,players&writers from what i watched.He was superskilled big man but almost crippled.

If Yao managed so well before injuries,healthy Sabonis could do much better.It's not a brainer.

At 33 years old, he scored 16 & 10. Thats a fact.Not a myth.

Wow great post :applause:

[jlauber]

Robinson is perhaps the most ripped "great" of all-time (not including Wilt who gets practically no respect.) As mentioned above, as a young player he more than held his own against a veteran Sabonis, but if you read the majority of opinions, you would think that Sabonis abused him like a red-headed step-child.

Then, Robinson played ONE bad series against Hakeem (and only poorly in three of those games BTW), and yet, you would think that Hakeem absolutely crushed him in their careers. The FACT was, in their OTHER 42 H2H games, it was as close to a statistical draw as would be possible. Their rebounding, steals, blocks, and assists are almost even. Hakeem held a 21.9 ppg to 19.6 ppg scoring edge, BUT, Robinson outshot him from the floor, .488 to .441. The only real difference between the two? Robinson's Spurs went 30-12 against Hakeem's Rockets.

And of course, there was this perception that Robinson was "afraid" of Shaq. Granted, he would be in constant foul trouble against Shaq, but IMHO, no other player defended Shaq better than Robinson. Shaq rarely shot over 50% against the Spurs in their playoff games, and even had a series in the .440 range. Here again, Shaq was defended by multiple defenders, but that was the case for several of the all-time greats. Even the great Russell had to have multiple swarming defenders to curtail Chamberlain. In any case, IMHO, Robinson's career is mistakingly under-rated. Take a look at his career accomplishments, and he was among the best that ever played the game. Unfortunately for him, he played poorly in a couple of post-seasons, and has been marked for life because of it.

[millwad]

Robinson is perhaps the most ripped "great" of all-time (not including Wilt who gets practically no respect.) As mentioned above, as a young player he more than held his own against a veteran Sabonis, but if you read the majority of opinions, you would think that Sabonis abused him like a red-headed step-child.

Then, Robinson played ONE bad series against Hakeem (and only poorly in three of those games BTW), and yet, you would think that Hakeem absolutely crushed him in their careers. The FACT was, in their OTHER 42 H2H games, it was as close to a statistical draw as would be possible. Their rebounding, steals, blocks, and assists are almost even. Hakeem held a 21.9 ppg to 19.6 ppg scoring edge, BUT, Robinson outshot him from the floor, .488 to .441. The only real difference between the two? Robinson's Spurs went 30-12 against Hakeem's Rockets.

And of course, there was this perception that Robinson was "afraid" of Shaq. Granted, he would be in constant foul trouble against Shaq, but IMHO, no other player defended Shaq better than Robinson. Shaq rarely shot over 50% against the Spurs in their playoff games, and even had a series in the .440 range. Here again, Shaq was defended by multiple defenders, but that was the case for several of the all-time greats. Even the great Russell had to have multiple swarming defenders to curtail Chamberlain. In any case, IMHO, Robinson's career is mistakingly under-rated. Take a look at his career accomplishments, and he was among the best that ever played the game. Unfortunately for him, he played poorly in a couple of post-seasons, and has been marked for life because of it.

Haha, you may be one of the most pathetic posters on this site ever.. Have you ever written a comment without bashing Hakeem and praising Wilt?

And you wanna know the difference between Hakeem and Robinson beside Hakeem abusing him in the playoffs? Hakeem actually led his team to 2 championships while David Robinson jumped on Timmys back when he won his 2 chips..

And if you're gonna write a comment like that, at least tell the truth. You say that Shaq rarely shot over 50% agains Spurs but the truth is that his average field goal % against the Spurs with Robinson on the squad was at 52% during the 17 games they faced each other in the playoffs...:rolleyes:

[jlauber]

Haha, you may be one of the most pathetic posters on this site ever.. Have you ever written a comment without bashing Hakeem and praising Wilt?

And you wanna know the difference between Hakeem and Robinson beside Hakeem abusing him in the playoffs? Hakeem actually led his team to 2 championships while David Robinson jumped on Timmys back when he won his 2 chips..

And if you're gonna write a comment like that, at least tell the truth. You say that Shaq rarely shot over 50% agains Spurs but the truth is that his average field goal % against the Spurs with Robinson on the squad was at 52% during the 17 games they faced each other in the playoffs...:rolleyes:

You are including DRob's last season in those numbers, when he was 37 and averaged about 20 mpg in those playoffs. BEFORE that post-season Shaq shot about 49% in the post-season against the Spurs. He also ABUSED a 34 year old Hakeem I might add (29.5 ppg on .517 shooting) in the '99 playoffs.

And yes, Hakeem is the most over-rated player on ISH. One more time...

18 seasons. Only five with over 50+ wins, and his HIGH was 58. Only four trips to the conference Finals. Only three to the Finals. Two rings, and even one of those came when the BEST player in the league took the year off (and that team went 55-27 without him, losing a close seven game series to the Knicks, who would lose a close seven game series to Hakeem's Rockets.) And four of his team's lost to lower seeds in the playoffs (out of 15 appearances.)

ONE MVP award (and, BTW, that came in that same year when the league's BEST player did not play.) ONE 2nd place finish in MVP balloting. TWO 4th place finishes. THREE 5th place finishes. And TWO 7th place finishes. And a TOTAL of NINE TOP-10 finishes...in those EIGHTEEN seasons. My god, he was seldom even considered a top-5 player in HIS era...and only a top-10 player in HALF of his career. Yet there are those that somehow believe him to be a TOP-5 player ALL-TIME????

Two rebounding titles (and when he was paired with teammate Charles Barkley, Barkley outrebounded him by FOUR per game.) Three Blocked shot titles (and "cement shoes" Eaton was easily better.) ZERO scoring titles. ZERO FG% titles. In EIGHTEEN seasons!

His career was BORDERLINE Top-10 at best.

[millwad]

You are including DRob's last season in those numbers, when he was 37 and averaged about 20 mpg in those playoffs. BEFORE that post-season Shaq shot about 49% in the post-season against the Spurs. He also ABUSED a 37 year old Hakeem I might add.

And yes, Hakeem is the most over-rated player on ISH. One more time...

18 seasons. Only five with over 50+ wins, and his HIGH was 58. Only four trips to the conference Finals. Only three to the Finals. Two rings, and even one of those came when the BEST player in the league took the year off (and that team went 55-27 without him, losing a close seven game series to the Knicks, who would lose a close seven game series to Hakeem's Rockets.) And four of his team's lost to lower seeds in the playoffs (out of 15 appearances.)

ONE MVP award (and, BTW, that came in that same year when the league's BEST player did not play.) ONE 2nd place finish in MVP balloting. TWO 4th place finishes. THREE 5th place finishes. And TWO 7th place finishes. And a TOTAL of NINE TOP-10 finishes...in those EIGHTEEN seasons. My god, he was seldom even considered a top-5 player in HIS era...and only a top-10 player in HALF of his career. Yet there are those that somehow believe him to be a TOP-5 player ALL-TIME????

Two rebounding titles (and when he was paired with teammate Charles Barkley, Barkley outrebounded him by FOUR per game.) Three Blocked shot titles (and "cement shoes" Eaton was easily better.) ZERO scoring titles. ZERO FG% titles. In EIGHTEEN seasons!

His career was BORDERLINE Top-10 at best.

I'm not really gonna get in this discussion with you because your beloved Wilt is the most overrated player by all-time, statpadder number one while playing the worst era of basketball, haha.. And you're the same retard who claimed that Thurmond was a better basketball player than Hakeem, haha AGAIN..

And last time I checked Hakeem was a;
[U][B]
2

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

[QUOTE=millwad]I'm not really gonna get in this discussion with you because your beloved Wilt is the most overrated player by all-time, statpadder number one..

And last time I checked Hakeem was a;
[U][B]
2

[rodman91]

It turned out Sabonis vs Robinson first... now Hakeem vs Wilt.. I wouldn't surprise it will end as Jordan vs Kobe.:oldlol:

[millwad]

It turned out Sabonis vs Robinson first... now Hakeem vs Wilt.. I wouldn't surprise it will end as Jordan vs Kobe.:oldlol:

Haha, it's the JLauber-fool..
I don't even know why he wrote about Hakeem to start with but spamming about Wilt is what he's doing in every thread..

[millwad]

that's nothing -Wilt could benchpress 550lbs and had 50 inch vert

Yeah, and lets not forget that Wilt claimed that he's slept with 20 000 chicas.. He slept with 9 ladies a week from when he was 15 until the day he published his book which was around the late 80's or something.. I bet JLauber's mom was one of these ladies spreading their legs for Wilt..

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=millwad]I'm not really gonna get in this discussion with you because your beloved Wilt is the most overrated player by all-time, statpadder number one..

And last time I checked Hakeem was a;
[U][B]
2

[millwad]

I don't have a life and my hobby is to read reports about 50 year old basketball games on the net.

I could go on, but I think I made my point...

It's cool, we already new that.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

go on,go on

[millwad]

Even that resume is telling...

Six times, in EIGHTEEN seasons, he was considered a first-team player. And only HALF the time was he even considered a 1st or 2nd team player.

As for quad doubles...hopefully you are including Chamberlain who had SEVERAL RECORDED ones, and most certainly has the ALL-TIME record.

Blocked shots. Find me a RECORDED game where Hakeem blocked 23 shots.

Wilt probably would have won MVP, Finals MVP, and DPOY of the year had the FMVP and DPOY awards existed in '67.

Wilt played on TWELVE teams (and in only 14 seasons...unlike Hakeem's four in 18 seasons) that made it to the Conference Finals. He went to SIX Finals. He also won two rings, and most certainly would have won two Finals MVPs had the award existed in '67. He also played on FOUR teams that won 60+ games, and his two title teams went 68-13 and 69-13 (including 33 straight wins.)

Chamberlain won SEVEN scoring titles. He won NINE FG% titles. He won ELEVEN rebounding titles. And he not only won them, at times he won by staggering margins. He won scoring titles by 10.8 and 18.8 ppg. He won rebounding titles by 4.8 rpg. He won FG% titles by .157 and .162 margins. He holds the top-4 scoring seasons. He holds the top-3 rebounding seasons. He holds the top-2 FG% seasons (and in leagues that shot .441 and .456.) He even won an ASSIST title.

Wilt not only won those statistical titles, but how about this? He LED the NBA in scoring AND rebounding in the SAME season, FIVE times. He LED the NBA in scoring AND FG%, FOUR times. He LED the NBA in rebounding AND FG%, EIGHT times. And he LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG% at the same time, THREE times. And, oh BTW, in one of those, his TEAM had the best record in the league (for those that claim he was a "stats-padder.")

He LED the NBA in 15 statistical categories, out of 22 in '63. He was among the top-5 with 19 of the 23 statistical categories in his '68 season. And he was close to those marks in many other seasons. And, keep in mind, that does not include blocked shots, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, or rebounding percentages...of which he most certainly would have had many more.

He has SIX of the top-10 70+ scoring games in NBA history (no one lese has more than one.) He has 32 of the entire total of 62 of the 60+ scoring games in NBA history (the next best mark is FIVE shared by MJ and Kobe.) Hell, he had THREE 60+ games in his 67-68 and 68-69 seasons, when he was shooting about 15 FGAs per game. One of them was a 66 point game, which came on 29-35 shooting, which is the all-time highest FG% in a 60+ point game (and he has four of the top-6 BTW.)

Wilt also holds the rebounding record of 55 in one game (and it came against RUSSELL, whom he outrebounded in that game, 55-19.) He also holds the playoff record of 41 (and again, against Russell, in a series in which he outrebounded Russell by a 32-23 rpg margin.) He also has 15 of the entire total of 28 40+ rebound games (with a 7-1 edge over Russell H2H, and he had a 23-4 edge over Russell in their H2H's, in 35+ rebound games.)

Wilt also holds the three highest "perfect games" in NBA history, with games of 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18. And he also holds the record of 35 straight made FGAs.

How about 40-30 games? Wilt has 55 of the entire TOTAL of 61 in NBA HISTORY (including FOUR against Russell just in the post-season...and 17 total against Russell.) How about 30-30 games? Wilt has 103 of the TOTAL of 131 in NBA HISTORY. He had a 78-43 game (as well as a 100-25 game). He had the ONLY FIVE 50-40 games in NBA HISTORY.

Triple-Doubles? Wilt has a KNOWN 88 including a game of 53-32-14. And, had blocked shots been kept, that total would have sky-rocketed. And one more time...he most certainly would hold the record for quad-doubles, too.

Post-season? In his first nine PRIME seasons, he averaged 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shot .518 (in leagues that shot between .410 to .446.) He also averaged 34 ppg and 27 rpg over the course of his four best post-seasons. He had FOUR 50+ point playoff games, including a 56-35 game in a game five of a best-of-five series...and another 50-35 game (against RUSSELL) in a must-win game five (and ANOTHER 46-34 game against Russell in yet another must-win game five.) And here again, he probably averaged 8+ bpg game over the course of his entire post-season career.

Game seven's? He played in NINE of them, and he averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot a mind-boggling .626 from the field (which is the all-time record for a "great.") And that does not include a 56-35 game five in a best-of-five series.

Who did he play against in his career? He faced a HOF center in about TWO-THIRDS of his 160 post-season games, and was never outplayed in 29 post-season series. In his career he faced Lovellette, Embry, Reed, Bellamy, Lucas, McAdoo, Lanier, Cowens, Hayes, Unseld, Thurmond, Russell, Gilmore, and Kareem...ALL in the HOF.

I could go on, but I think I made my point...

Now honestly, I didn't read your comment because Wilt is not what we're discussing here and I've already seen your extremely long and terrible posts about Wilt earlier.

Please, can you now go and discuss Wilt in another thread where the topic actually is about him? Like seriously, why the hell do you write a full page about Wilt in a thread about Ralph Sampson vs Sabonis? Can you tell me that?

[NugzHeat3]

go on,go on
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Sakkreth]

It turned out Sabonis vs Robinson first... now Hakeem vs Wilt.. I wouldn't surprise it will end as Jordan vs Kobe.:oldlol:

Atleast it's still about centers :D

[jlauber]

Now honestly, I didn't read your comment because Wilt is not what we're discussing here and I've already seen your extremely long and terrible posts about Wilt earlier.

Please, can you now go and discuss Wilt in another thread where the topic actually is about him? Like seriously, why the hell do you write a full page about Wilt in a thread about Ralph Sampson vs Sabonis? Can you tell me that?

I was merely responding to this garbage...


I'm not really gonna get in this discussion with you because your beloved Wilt is the most overrated player by all-time, statpadder number one while playing the worst era of basketball, haha.. And you're the same retard who claimed that Thurmond was a better basketball player than Hakeem, haha AGAIN..



As for Thurmond...he was certainly a MUCH better defender than Hakeem. Just ask Kareem.

[millwad]

I was merely responding to this garbage...


All your posts are off topic and pure garbage, seriously.




As for Thurmond...he was certainly a MUCH better defender than Hakeem. Just ask Kareem.

Don't come with that BS, you are so retarded that you claimed that Thurmond was a better basketball player than Hakeem Olajuwon.

Now please leave this thread or read the topic again, it's not about Wilt and it's not about Olajuwon so SHUSH.

[jlauber]

All your posts are off topic and pure garbage, seriously.




Don't come with that BS, you are so retarded that you claimed that Thurmond was a better basketball player than Hakeem Olajuwon.

Now please leave this thread or read the topic again, it's not about Wilt and it's not about Olajuwon so SHUSH.

And why don't you spout your "Hakeem is GOD" nonsense to your pre-school classmates?

[millwad]

And why don't you spout your "Hakeem is GOD" nonsense to your pre-school classmates?


This is the difference between you and me, I'm a fan of basketball and Hakeem is no god but I do like his game. I'm on this site because I love basketball and I do like to discuss with other basketball fans.

You on the other side, you're on this site to spam about your obsession of Wilt, everything you write is about Wilt and if a thread like this ain't about him you make it about him the best way you can.

Your posts are pure garbage and so biased and boring, no one reads them, the funny thing is that you probably spent 30 minutes writing that crap about Wilt and his accomplishments earlier in this thread, when the freaking thread ain't about him.. And ever funnier is the fact that no one read that crap.

[jlauber]

This is the difference between you and me, I'm a fan of basketball and Hakeem is no god but I do like his game. I'm on this site because I love basketball and I do like to discuss with other basketball fans.

You on the other side, you're on this site to spam about your obsession of Wilt, everything you write is about Wilt and if a thread like this ain't about him you make it about him the best way you can.

Your posts are pure garbage and so biased and boring, no one reads them, the funny thing is that you probably spent 30 minutes writing that crap about Wilt and his accomplishments earlier in this thread, when the freaking thread ain't about him.. And ever funnier is the fact that no one read that crap.

Interesting...you didn't read them (and you probably couldn't), BUT, yet you responded to SEVERAL of my points?

[millwad]

Interesting...you didn't read them (and you probably couldn't), BUT, yet you responded to SEVERAL of my points?

Because I know what you have to say, just by seeing your name in a thread means that you're some how gonna spam about Wilt, it's that obvious. It's like someone with Asperger syndrome who gets obsessed with some hobby or person and rants about it again and again and the crap never ends...

In all honesty, I think you have some kind of mental disorder because you just don't get it. Like how can a basketball player mean that much to you? You're probably more than 50 years old and still you're freaking obsessed with a basketball player. Seriously, get your act together, the dude dribbled a ball like 50 years ago and everyone's understood by now that you like him but come on, it's getting freaking out of hand...

[jlauber]

Because I know what you have to say, just by seeing your name in a thread means that you're some how gonna spam about Wilt, it's that obvious. It's like someone with Asperger syndrome who gets obsessed with some hobby or person and rants about it again and again and the crap never ends...

In all honesty, I think you have some kind of mental disorder because you just don't get it. Like how can a basketball player mean that much to you? You're probably more than 50 years old and still you're freaking obsessed with a basketball player. Seriously, get your act together, the dude dribbled a ball like 50 years ago and everyone's understood by now that you like him but come on, it's getting freaking out of hand...

I am 56, and have SEEN every great player since the mid-60's. And I get so tired of having to defend so MANY of them here. Oscar, West, Magic, Kareem, Russell, and yes, Wilt. This nonsense that those players, in their primes, would be riding the bench in today's game is ridiculous. We KNOW that a WAY-past his prime Kareem dumped THREE 40+ games on a 22-23 year old Hakeem (and yes, even the recaps mentioned that Hakeem TRIED to guard him.) And yet, Kareem, in his prime, and in the 52 H2H meetings with Thurmond, had a HIGH game of 34 points. Without taking the time to look up the known H2H FG%'s, I would be pretty certain that a PRIME Kareem probably shot less than 45% against Thurmond in his CAREER. He had many games against Thurmond (and Wilt) of less than 40%. And a WAY-past his prime Chamberlain not only held Kareem to a career .464 FG%, he was BLOCKING some 4-5 sky-hooks in those games. And yet, a 38 year-old Kareem could averaged 33 ppg on .634 shooting against Hakeem and his Rockets. True, Hakeem outplayed Kareem in the '86 playoffs (just as Magic outplayed Hakeem in the '91 playoffs)...but my god, Kareem still had games of 33 and 31 points in that playoff series, too. Think about that...a Kareem who could barely get off the floor, was routinely hanging 30-40 point games on Hakeem (who obviously couldn't guard him.) And yet, a PRIME Kareem struggled to shoot 45% against Thurmond and Wilt, both of whom were past their primes (especially Wilt.) And think about this, as well. A PRIME Shaq, and against a washed-up Hakeem, had his highest game against Hakeem in the '99 playoffs...of 37 points (and only a total of four over 30 in all of their H2H's.) Kareem's high against Nate was 34. And a PRIME Chamberlain had several 30+ point games against Nate, including one in which he outscored Thurmond, 45-13. And, a "scoring" PRIME Chamberlain only faced Thurmond in a very small number of games. Still, as an example, in '67, when Chamberlain dramatically cut back his shooting, he was asked at halftime by his coach, to shoot more in the second half in one game against Nate. He responded with 24 second half points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game. And in the Finals, Chamberlain averaged 17.5 ppg on .560 shooting against Thurmond (who averaged 14.3 on .343 shooting against Wilt.)

Look, Hakeem was a very good player. MAYBE even top-10. But he was nowhere near in Wilt's or Kareem's class. And there is NOTHING in his career resume which suggests otherwise.

[millwad]

I am 56, and have SEEN every great player since the mid-60's. And I get so tired of having to defend so MANY of them here. Oscar, West, Magic, Kareem, Russell, and yes, Wilt. This nonsense that those players, in their primes, would be riding the bench in today's game is ridiculous. We KNOW that a WAY-past his prime Kareem dumped THREE 40+ games on a 22-23 year old Hakeem (and yes, even the recaps mentioned that Hakeem TRIED to guard him.) And yet, Kareem, in his prime, and in the 52 H2H meetings with Thurmond, had a HIGH game of 34 points. Without taking the time to look up the known H2H FG%'s, I would be pretty certain that a PRIME Kareem probably shot less than 45% against Thurmond in his CAREER. He had many games against Thurmond (and Wilt) of less than 40%. And a WAY-past his prime Chamberlain not only held Kareem to a career .464 FG%, he was BLOCKING some 4-5 sky-hooks in those games. And yet, a 38 year-old Kareem could averaged 33 ppg on .634 shooting against Hakeem and his Rockets. True, Hakeem outplayed Kareem in the '86 playoffs (just as Magic outplayed Hakeem in the '91 playoffs)...but my god, Kareem still had games of 33 and 31 points in that playoff series, too. Think about that...a Kareem who could barely get off the floor, was routinely hanging 30-40 point games on Hakeem (who obviously couldn't guard him.) And yet, a PRIME Kareem struggled to shoot 45% against Thurmond and Wilt, both of whom were past their primes (especially Wilt.) And think about this, as well. A PRIME Shaq, and against a washed-up Hakeem, had his highest game against Hakeem in the '99 playoffs...of 37 points (and only a total of four over 30 in all of their H2H's.) Kareem's high against Nate was 34. And a PRIME Chamberlain had several 30+ point games against Nate, including one in which he outscored Thurmond, 45-13. And, a "scoring" PRIME Chamberlain only faced Thurmond in a very small number of games. Still, as an example, in '67, when Chamberlain dramatically cut back his shooting, he was asked at halftime by his coach, to shoot more in the second half in one game against Nate. He responded with 24 second half points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game. And in the Finals, Chamberlain averaged 17.5 ppg on .560 shooting against Thurmond (who averaged 14.3 on .343 shooting against Wilt.)

Look, Hakeem was a very good player. MAYBE even top-10. But he was nowhere near in Wilt's or Kareem's class. And there is NOTHING in his career resume which suggests otherwise.


Wow, you really don't get it. I honestly feel sorry for you, if you don't even get my message when I wrote it that clearly, it only shows that you have some kind of mental issue, you're not 100% ok..

It's basketball, you're 56 years old, and still you're so obsessed with games and players who played 50 years ago, let it go, seriously. Let people think whatever they want, it's not a normal behaviour for a 56 year old man to spam about some freaking basketball player and it's not like you do it where people ask you to do it. You join the most random discussions where Wilt has nothing with the topic to do and spam your crap again and again..

It feels odd to tell a 56 year old man to grow up, but seriously, grow up and get some help. Only someone who's not mentally ok would reply my earlier comment with stats and facts about Wilt or Kareem...

[kNIOKAS]

Wow, you really don't get it. I honestly feel sorry for you, if you don't even get my message when I wrote it that clearly, it only shows that you have some kind of mental issue, you're not 100% ok..

It's basketball, you're 56 years old, and still you're so obsessed with games and players who played 50 years ago, let it go, seriously. Let people think whatever they want, it's not a normal behaviour for a 56 year old man to spam about some freaking basketball player and it's not like you do it where people ask you to do it. You join the most random discussions where Wilt has nothing with the topic to do and spam your crap again and again..

It feels odd to tell a 56 year old man to grow up, but seriously, grow up and get some help. Only someone who's not mentally ok would reply my earlier comment with stats and facts about Wilt or Kareem...
shut up. he made his point and backed up with facts. and you're just spouting 56-year-old. what a jerk

[millwad]

shut up. he made his point and backed up with facts. and you're just spouting 56-year-old. what a jerk

You shut up, little prick.
You don't even know what the sh*t is about, it's not about making a point or backing it with facts. The dude came here and spammed about Wilt as he always does in a thread about Sabonis and Ralph Sampson.

It's not a normal behaviour for a 56 year old man to be that obsessed with a basketball player, he jumps in every single thread and spam about Wilt, if the actual topic ain't about him he goes around it and spams anyway.

I bet your dad is obsessed with a basketball player who played 50 years ago? Guess not..

[Blue&Orange]

I actually have seen the game and Sabas didn't outplay Robinson at all, that's a pure myth built up by european fans, I'm european myself and I call it BULLSHIT.
Sure you are, and i'm Chinese. Swedes are educated people, and you're not. More like a redneck loser with a gimmick account, trying to look respectful with his anti-everything not US opinions


You shut up, little prick.
You don't even know what the sh*t is about, it's not about making a point or backing it with facts. The dude came here and spammed about Wilt as he always does in a thread about Sabonis and Ralph Sampson.

No he didn't, his first post was all about David Robinson. You're just a moron with stupid opinions that got owned really bad, and like all morons you resorted to insults.

But i understand, jlauber just did a "Tell me how my 50 years old ass taste like" on you. :lol

[millwad]

Sure you are, and i'm Chinese. Swedes are educated people, and you're not. More like a redneck loser with a gimmick account, trying to look respectful with his anti-everything not US opinions


No he didn't, his first post was all about David Robinson. You're just a moron with stupid opinions that got owned really bad, and like all morons you resorted to insults.

But i understand, jlauber just did a "Tell me how my 50 years old ass taste like" on you. :lol

He didn't? His first post was about David Robinson, Hakeem being overrated, Wilt Chamberlain being ripped and nagging about Russell.

Yeah, I got so "owned" by him going completely off topic discussing Robinson vs Hakeem and then spamming about Wilt when the thread is about Sampson and Sabonis. Learn to read, cutie.

Now go back sending PM's to your idol, jlauber.

[LJJ]

It's funny how Jlauber always makes the same argument of:

Old Wilt "crushes" Kareem
Old Kareem went toe to toe with Hakeem
therefore Wilt>>Kareem>>Hakeem.


Aren't both of these just cases of an incredibly savvy, battle-worn ,veteran superstar taking advantage of a young player (although superbly talented) who has never faced opponents like that before?

[jlauber]

It's funny how Jlauber always makes the same argument of:

Old Wilt "crushes" Kareem
Old Kareem went toe to toe with Hakeem
therefore Wilt>>Kareem>>Hakeem.


Aren't both of these just cases of an incredibly savvy, battle-worn ,veteran superstar taking advantage of a young player (although superbly talented) who has never faced opponents like that before?

It's not just about who vs. whom...it's about how so many here believe that the stars of today would just abuse the stars of yesteryear...when we have "bridges" (and not just Kareem BTW) that disprove those theories.

An old Wilt did not "crush" a prime Kareem BTW. In the 70-71 playoffs he battled him to a statistical draw (and only a year removed from major knee surgery.) And those that actually witnessed the '72 WCF's, despite Kareem outscoring Wilt by a large margin, would attest that Wilt outplayed him. In the last four games of that series, Kareem looked like a dear in headlights, and he shot .414...many of them blocked by Chamberlain.

What we never saw was a PRIME Chamberlain vs. Kareem. The closest we had was a older Wilt, in Kareem's rookie season, abusing Kareem in their one H2H game, in every facet of the game. Granted, that was not a prime Kareem...but it was also not a PRIME Chamberlain, either.

I have said it before, but in Wilt's 68-69 season, he had two 60+ point games...against Connie Dierking and Jim Fox (and he shot 29-35 against Fox.) So what you ask? That was a Wilt who took about 14 FGAs per game that season, and he seldom even TRIED to score. And yet, Kareem would face those two centers several times over the course of the next few seasons, and he never had games like that against them (nor did he ever even have a 60 point game.) Wilt also had several 30+ games against a prime Thurmond, and even outscored him one game, 45-13. Kareem's high game against Nate...34 points. Wilt also hung THREE 50+ point games on HOFer Willis Reed in his career, with a HIGH game of 58 points. And, he had THREE games of 60+ against HOFer and 6-11 Walt Bellamy, including a HIGH game of 73 points (!) And yet Kareem, who faced those two many times, never came close to those games against those two players. Chamberlain hung a 31-32 game on 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier in his 71-72 (Wilt's next to last season), and added yet another 30-30 game that season. Overall, he had 103 30-30 games in his career. Kareem had ONE, and it came in 1977. Why wasn't a prime Kareem routinely hanging 30-30 games on his peers? And, think about this...in Wilt's LAST post-season, covering 17 games...he averaged 22.5 rpg. That would be the LAST time an NBA player ever averaged 20+ rpg in the post-season...and in FACT, the next highest post-season since was Kareem's '77, when he averaged 17.3 rpg. Chamberlain also had seasons where he shot .683 (averaging 24.1 ppg) ina league that shot .441...and another of .727. in a league that shot .456...and yet, Kareem's highest FG% was .604, in a league that shot .485. How come Kareem wasn't scoring scoring, rebounding, or shooting as efficiently as Wilt did, when they faced many of the same players?

In any case, we know that an old Kareem could more than hold his own against not only Olajuwon, but against Ewing, whom he outscored one game 40-9, and held Patrick to 3-17 shooting. If an old Kareem could DOMINATE the best centers of the 90's...what would a PRIME Chamberlain have done?

[millwad]

Yadi Yadi Yadi...

In any case, we know that an old Kareem could more than hold his own against not only Olajuwon, but against Ewing, whom he outscored one game 40-9, and held Patrick to 3-17 shooting. If an old Kareem could DOMINATE the best centers of the 90's...what would a PRIME Chamberlain have done?

"Good" biased question, I have an idea, START A NEW THREAD with that topic instead of spamming pure off topic crap in this thread...

[jlauber]

Hakeem faced an extremely experienced Kareem, you are really fast at writing how good and how many points he scored on Olajuwon and Sampson but some how you always "forget" to mention how abused Kareem and the Lakers feat. Magic and Worthy were by a 2nd year pro in Hakeem Olajuwon and his Rockets. Experience is extremely important and Hakeem obviously learned his lesson from the regular season in 86 because crushing Kareem and the Lakers in the WCF was something no one expected from him and the Rockets. We are talking about a 2nd year pro leading his team easily past the previous year's champs with a crushing 4-1 in games.

And you always mention how many points Kareem put up on Hakeem when they first met, and you always end up with saying that Hakeem is an overrated defender because of that.

In that case we shouldn't even talk about how overrated your beloved Russell is since he allowed Chamberlain to score 50+ in 8 different games..

See, everything isn't stats..

But seriously now, if this subject is so important to you, start a thread about it, this is completely off topic and I'm completely off topic now as well but I'm replying to your biased comment..

First of all, it's NOT just about the POINTS. My god, a 38 year-old Kareem hung a 46 point on Hakeem (and yes, Hakeem TRIED to guard him the entire game), on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes. Kareem also averaged 33 ppg on .634 shooting in FIVE H2H games that year (and yes, I know, Sampson HAD to TRY to guard Kareem in them, as well.) And then, even as I have acknowledged, Hakeem outplayed Kareem in the playoffs that year. BUT, even then Kareem had games of 33 and 31 in that series. THAT was a 38 year-old Kareem forcryingoutloud. How great was Hakeem at age 38?

AND, Hakeem was a very good player at age 23 (in fact, he shot as well as he EVER did), and in the very next season he was voted first-team all-defense. Still, a 38 to 41 year old Kareem averaged 20 ppg on .599 shooting against Hakeem and his Rockets. Now, how great was Kareem at 23? He was scoring 31.7 ppg, on .577 shooting, with 16.0 rpg, and winning the league MVP as well as the Finals MVP. What would THAT Kareem have hung on ANY Hakeem? Given the fact that a PRIME Shaq could "only" score a career high 37 points against a washed-up Hakeem...I think that speaks volumes about not only Kareem, but players like Wilt, Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, and even Gilmore. And, yes, Russell, who held Wilt considerably below his ppg and FG%'s, even if he couldn't completely stop him.

[millwad]

First of all, it's NOT just about the POINTS. My god, a 38 year-old Kareem hung a 46 point on Hakeem (and yes, Hakeem TRIED to guard him the entire game), on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes. Kareem also averaged 33 ppg on .634 shooting in FIVE H2H games that year (and yes, I know, Sampson HAD to TRY to guard Kareem in them, as well.) And then, even as I have acknowledged, Hakeem outplayed Kareem in the playoffs that year. BUT, even then Kareem had games of 33 and 31 in that series. THAT was a 38 year-old Kareem forcryingoutloud. How great was Hakeem at age 38?

AND, Hakeem was a very good player at age 23 (in fact, he shot as well as he EVER did), and in the very next season he was voted first-team all-defense. Still, a 38 to 41 year old Kareem averaged 20 ppg on .599 shooting against Hakeem and his Rockets. Now, how great was Kareem at 23? He was scoring 31.7 ppg, on .577 shooting, with 16.0 rpg, and winning the league MVP as well as the Finals MVP. What would THAT Kareem have hung on ANY Hakeem? Given the fact that a PRIME Shaq could "only" score a career high 37 points against a washed-up Hakeem...I think that speaks volumes about not only Kareem, but players like Wilt, Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, and even Gilmore. And, yes, Russell, who held Wilt considerably below his ppg and FG%'s, even if he couldn't completely stop him.

And what has all that to do with this thread?
I really don't see a reason to discuss this with you again and especially not in a thread with the topic, "Given 12 years of health, Ralph Sampson or Arvydas Sabonis?".

[jlauber]

And what has all that to do with this thread?

What did David Robinson have to do with the topic, either?

In fact, I merely pointed out how under-rated DRob's career was (and I actually agreed with some of your points), and then you jumped in complaining about how over-rated Wilt was, and how Hakeem's two titles were better than DRob's two rings.

[jlauber]

BTW, Millwad...

I would say that at least 90% of the time, I enter a topic in which someone has either mentioned Wilt (and usually disparaging him), or SHOULD have mentioned Wilt.

As for Hakeem...why don't YOU start a thread on him...and I will be glad to respond.

[millwad]

What did David Robinson have to do with the topic, either?

In fact, I merely pointed out how under-rated DRob's career was (and I actually agreed with some of your points), and then you jumped in complaining about how over-rated Wilt was, and how Hakeem's two titles were better than DRob's two rings.

David Robinson was written about by other posters, people claimed he was "schooled" by Sabas which he wasn't and I made that clear.

Your first comment was about David Robinson compared to Olajuwon and then you mixed it up with Shaq and as always you started the spamming about Russell and Chamberlain. I made it clear to you that it was a big difference between being the best player on your team when winning it all and winning it all while being the 2nd best player on your team.

You're like the god of going OT..

[millwad]

BTW, Millwad...

I would say that at least 90% of the time, I enter a topic in which someone has either mentioned Wilt (and usually disparaging him), or SHOULD have mentioned Wilt.

As for Hakeem...why don't YOU start a thread on him...and I will be glad to respond.

I don't think there's any need of a thread about Hakeem, there are too many of them already. And no, you I've seen you bringing him up on the most odd occasions. I just don't understand why you always have to bring him up in some way and why you always must "inform" people of his greatness, let it be, if people don't wanna share your opinion, then let them be..

[jlauber]

David Robinson was written about by other posters, people claimed he was "schooled" by Sabas which he wasn't and I made that clear.

Your first comment was about David Robinson compared to Olajuwon and then you mixed it up with Shaq and as always you started the spamming about Russell and Chamberlain. I made it clear to you that it was a big difference between being the best player on your team when winning it all and winning it all while being the 2nd best player on your team.

You're like the god of going OT..

LOL! When was Wilt ever the "second best player" on his own title teams? He won the Finals MVP in '72 (with one of the greatest clinching performances in NBA history BTW....24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and at least nine blocks...all while PLAYING with one badly sprained wrist, and the other FRACTURED.) He also was overwhelmingly the 76ers best player in '67 (perhaps the greatest single season by ANY player in NBA HISTORY!)

Here again, do you really want to compare either regular season, OR post-season success??? And don't give me Wilt's 22.5 ppg post-season scoring...half of which occurred in the last half of his career, and was either by design, or because of coaching (some of it incompetent.) But, IF you really want to compare them...I am game...

[millwad]

LOL! When was Wilt ever the "second best player" on his own title teams? He won the Finals MVP in '72 (with one of the greatest clinching performances in NBA history BTW....24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and at least nine blocks...all while PLAYING with one badly sprained wrist, and the other FRACTURED.) He also was overwhelmingly the 76ers best player in '67 (perhaps the greatest single season by ANY player in NBA HISTORY!)

Here again, do you really want to compare either regular season, OR post-season success??? And don't give me Wilt's 22.5 ppg post-season scoring...half of which occurred in the last half of his career, and was either by design, or because of coaching (some of it incompetent.) But, IF you really want to compare them...I am game...

What the hell, get a freaking life, I was writing about David Robinson, couldn't care less about Wilt..

[rodman91]

https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/wiltchamberlain_schoemaker.jpg

Wilt & jlauber :oldlol:

[jlauber]

https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/wiltchamberlain_schoemaker.jpg

Wilt & jlauber :oldlol:

Damn, I look GOOD.

[Euroleague]

At 39-40, he won euroleague regular season MVP.


That award was just for like 14 games back then. That's why they changed the rules and eliminated that award. Besides that, the head of the Euroleague even admitted that they gave him those awards as a tribute to his career and not necessarily just because he deserved them.

And to put into proper perspective, after they changed the rules, you cannot win the MVP unless your team makes the final four. That means that today, he would have not even qualified for the Euroleague MVP award that season.

So it makes it seem like he was better than he really was then.

[rodman91]

That award was just for like 14 games back then. That's why they changed the rules and eliminated that award. Besides that, the head of the Euroleague even admitted that they gave him those awards as a tribute to his career and not necessarily just because he deserved them.

And to put into proper perspective, after they changed the rules, you cannot win the MVP unless your team makes the final four. That means that today, he would have not even qualified for the Euroelague MVP award that season.

So it makes it seem like he was better than he really was then.

at 39/40 years old.. 16.7 ppg 10.7 rpg 2.4 apg 1.6 bpg in 28 minutes. Pretty good i think.

[Euroleague]

at 39/40 years old.. 16.7 ppg 10.7 rpg 2.4 apg 1.6 bpg in 28 minutes. Pretty good i think.

The league was weak back then and it was just for a top 16 club, without much depth and top players. You should know this if you are a Euroleague fan.

Under the current voting system, I don't think he would have even sniffed an All-Euroleague Second Team, and would not have qualified for an MVP.

Even with the Lithuanians stuffing the online fan voting like they always do.