Most Underrated Player of the 90s

[TrueGreenFan]

Jyd.......... Junkyard Dog.

[shaq's--lakers]

Gary Payton...For many years he was better then Stockton

[L.Kizzle]

Gary Payton...For many years he was better then Stockton
He came into the league 6 years after Stockton ...

[millwad]

Kevin Johnson, he was a beast in the mid 90's..

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin Johnson, he was a beast in the mid 90's..
He's not underrated, overrated is more like it.

Now Glen Ric, he's underrated.

[JohnnySic]

Reggie Lewis. :cry:

[Round Mound]

Kemp. Many forget he was the Best Sonics Defender

[CJ Mustard]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nascar/2009/news/features/07/14/five.things.bdaugherty/brad.2.193.jpg

[Da Heroic One]

Kemp. Many forget he was the Best Sonics Defender
http://i44.tinypic.com/op68ag.gif

[ShaqAttack3234]

Both Payton and KJ were better players than Stockton. Wouldn't call Payton underrated though. KJ might be now.

Rice wasn't underrated. He was a great shooter, but all he did was shoot/score, and he got 3 all-star appearances and an all-nba second team/all-nba third team out of it.

Kemp isn't underrated either. I see more people overrate him than underrate him due to nostalgia and the highlight plays.

[L.Kizzle]

Both Payton and KJ were better players than Stockton. Wouldn't call Payton underrated though. KJ might be now.

Rice wasn't underrated. He was a great shooter, but all he did was shoot/score, and he got 3 all-star appearances and an all-nba second team/all-nba third team out of it.

Kemp isn't underrated either. I see more people overrate him than underrate him due to nostalgia and the highlight plays.
KJ is overrated on ISH. A lot of folks here think he's top 40 player All-Time.

Mark Price and Tim Hardaway, those are some underrated pgs.

[Da Heroic One]

KJ is overrated on ISH. A lot of folks here think he's top 40 player All-Time.
.
I have never seen that. Show some evidence.

[L.Kizzle]

I have never seen that. Show some evidence.
HE was voted #46.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766

[ballerz]

Kemp. Many forget he was the Best Sonics Defender
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu130/idunno271828/Funny%20Pics/GaryColemanJokingRight.gif

[Micku]

I dunno.

Tim Hardaway is more under appreciated than underrated imo. Regardless, people don't really talk about him anymore. He was one of the best PGs of the 90s. He had a killer revolutionary cross over.

Kevin Johnson is one of the better PGs who some ppl forgotten. He's a star PG, and his prime was really cool.

Terry Porter is one underrated guy too.

Elden Campbell was really solid, but I don't really blame ppl forgetting about him.

Detlef Schrempf might be underrated too.


But similar to Kevin Johnson I guess, there were a lot of potential players who had their prime cut short due to injuries or something. The most memorable are Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Larry Johnson. You...could add Ewing in there I guess since his knees gave out, but I wouldn't since he adjusted and everything.


----

Is Muggsy Bogues underrated? He might be. Dude had skill. Great story of him being 5'3 and him shooting better than some 6'11 guys.

[gengiskhan]

tim hardaway
mitch richmond
Kevin Johnson
Teri Porter
Larry Johnson
Reggie Lewis
Dominique Wilkins
Doc Rivers

[KingJay718]

Kevin Johnson is underrated. Russell Westbrook should watch tapes on KJ. KJ owned Magic Johnson in the 1990 Semi-Finals

[catch24]

Easily Mitch Richmond/Mullin.

[lakers_forever]

Easily Mitch Richmond/Mullin.

:cheers:

[Suckafree]

Both Payton and KJ were better players than Stockton. Wouldn't call Payton underrated though. KJ might be now.

Rice wasn't underrated. He was a great shooter, but all he did was shoot/score, and he got 3 all-star appearances and an all-nba second team/all-nba third team out of it.

Kemp isn't underrated either. I see more people overrate him than underrate him due to nostalgia and the highlight plays.

Ok, now don't get me wrong I'm not an expert on 90's basketball or anything but my spidey senses are telling me this is just not true

[TrueGreenFan]

Forgot about Sean Elliot.

[lakers_forever]

Ok, now don't get me wrong I'm not an expert on 90's basketball or anything but my spidey senses are telling me this is just not true

Not true at all. Revisionism at its best. Some guy here was a huge KJ fan and apparently brainwashed everyone else. Guy never made it to all NBA first team and was only one year ahead of Stockton in ALL NBA teams (he was second team and Stockton third team in 1991).

Stockton was an all star from 1989 to 1997. Kevin Johnson made 3 all stars games in his entire life.

[magnax1]

Today it's probably Tim Hardaway and Glen Rice.

[magnax1]

Ok, now don't get me wrong I'm not an expert on 90's basketball or anything but my spidey senses are telling me this is just not true
Yeah, it's definitely Bullshit. KJ was a little bit better scorer, but couldn't do anything else on the same level as Stockton.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Ok, now don't get me wrong I'm not an expert on 90's basketball or anything but my spidey senses are telling me this is just not true

It's absolutely true. Stockton's prime/peak are both overrated. He was good for a long time, but never a true elite player or MVP-caliber player. KJ was.

[magnax1]

It's absolutely true. Stockton's prime/peak are both overrated. He was good for a long time, but never a true elite player or MVP-caliber player. KJ was.
KJ was an elite MVP-caliber player? He made 3 all star games, and it's not like he was missing them because he was injured all the time. He missed 2 years in his prime in 89, and 92 for no other reason then he just didn't deserve it. In fact he had team mates picked over him multiple times.

[Suckafree]

Also, it's hard for stockton to get MVP consideration when you got hakeem, mj, robinson, ewing, barkley, malone etc.

Stockton was basically putting up mvp nash numbers + 2-3 assists and 3 steals. He wasn't the scorer that KJ was but was damn sure a better basketball player than KJ.

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Atlanta%20Hawks/Kevin%20Willis/84e730fb.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Rod%20Strickland/18PTs9ASTs.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20Crazy%20Shot/PutBack/0n%20Missing%20FT/crazyrodstrickland.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Rod%20Strickland/8dd7e579.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Sam%20Cassell/1994final-video0301.jpg

[lakers_forever]

It's absolutely true. Stockton's prime/peak are both overrated. He was good for a long time, but never a true elite player or MVP-caliber player. KJ was.

????

MVP voting:

1988 - Stockton 10th - KJ (no pts)
1989 - Stockton 7th - KJ 8th.
1990 - Stockton 9th - KJ (no points)
1991 - Stockton 12th - KJ 7th (only year ahead of Stockton).
1992 - Stockton 12th - KJ 14th
1993 - Stockton 10th - KJ (no pts)
1994 - Stotckton and KJ tied for 11th place.
1995 - Stockton 8th - KJ (no pts).
1996 - Stockton 11th - KJ (no pts)
1997 - Stockton 15th - KJ 17th

KJ highest was 7th place once just like Stockton. And only 2 times in the top 10 while Stockton was top 10 5 times (1988, 89, 90, 93 and 95).

[ShaqAttack3234]

KJ was an elite MVP-caliber player? He made 3 all star games, and it's not like he was missing them because he was injured all the time. He missed 2 years in his prime in 89, and 92 for no other reason then he just didn't deserve it. In fact he had team mates picked over him multiple times.

Didn't you see any of the numerous playoff games KJ took over and dominated, Stockton didn't have the ability to do that, if he did then Utah may have not had as many playoff disappointments because there were times when it was obvious they could've used a 2nd scorer.

[L.Kizzle]

????

MVP voting:

1988 - Stockton 10th - KJ (no pts)
1989 - Stockton 7th - KJ 8th.
1990 - Stockton 9th - KJ (no points)
1991 - Stockton 12th - KJ 7th (only year ahead of Stockton).
1992 - Stockton 12th - KJ 14th
1993 - Stockton 10th - KJ (no pts)
1994 - Stotckton and KJ tied for 11th place.
1995 - Stockton 8th - KJ (no pts).
1996 - Stockton 11th - KJ (no pts)
1997 - Stockton 15th - KJ 17th

KJ highest was 7th place once just like Stockton. And only 2 times in the top 10 while Stockton was top 10 5 times (1988, 89, 90, 93 and 95).
PGs who were All-NBA 1st team over Johnson around this time.

Johnson
Stockton
MARK PRICE
TIM HARDAWAY
Gary Payton
Anfernee Hardaway

[lovethetriangle]

Rony Seikaly!!!

[magnax1]

Didn't you see any of the numerous playoff games KJ took over and dominated, Stockton didn't have the ability to do that, if he did then Utah may have not had as many playoff disappointments because there were times when it was obvious they could've used a 2nd scorer.
Utah had playoff disappointments because Karl Malone was incapable of consistently scoring in the clutch or scoring efficiently in the half court consistently in the playoffs until the late 90s. Stockton generally performed really well in the clutch, though a 20 ppg scorer isn't enough to get you through most playoff in the clutch.
And saying KJ was capable of taking over and dominating is a massive exaggeration. He put up a little better scoring #s while being wildly inconsistent and didn't do anything else better. If you value scoring that much, so be it, but saying he was better just doesn't make much logical sense.
You're comparing a 20-10 3 time all star, to the best passer ever, an all NBA defender who put up 17-14. I never said KJ wasn't a better scorer, but that's the only thing, and not by a huge margin. KJ was a borderline all star most of his career, not a borderline top 5 player like Stockton was in his best years. KJ wasn't even better then Hardaway, who wasn't as good as Stockton in his prime either.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Utah had playoff disappointments because Karl Malone was incapable of consistently scoring in the clutch or scoring efficiently in the half court consistently in the playoffs until the late 90s. Stockton generally performed really well in the clutch, though a 20 ppg scorer isn't enough to get you through most playoff in the clutch.
And saying KJ was capable of taking over and dominating is a massive exaggeration. He put up a little better scoring #s while being wildly inconsistent and didn't do anything else better. If you value scoring that much, so be it, but saying he was better just doesn't make much logical sense.
You're comparing a 20-10 3 time all star, to the best passer ever, an all NBA defender who put up 17-14. I never said KJ wasn't a better scorer, but that's the only thing, and not by a huge margin. KJ was a borderline all star most of his career, not a borderline top 5 player like Stockton was in his best years. KJ wasn't even better then Hardaway, who wasn't as good as Stockton in his prime either.

:roll: Stockton is overrated in general, but you take it to a new level. He was NEVER a top 5 player, and it's NOT debatable. Anyone who watches games objectively and has the intelligence/knowledge to analyze the game will know this.

Stockton was a smart player and a very good passer who ran the offense well, but he was in the ideal system for him playing with the ideal teammate for him in Karl Malone. Benefitted as well, but of course, was a much better player than Stockton.

[97 bulls]

:roll: Stockton is overrated in general, but you take it to a new level. He was NEVER a top 5 player, and it's NOT debatable. Anyone who watches games objectively and has the intelligence/knowledge to analyze the game will know this.

Stockton was a smart player and a very good passer who ran the offense well, but he was in the ideal system for him playing with the ideal teammate for him in Karl Malone. Benefitted as well, but of course, was a much better player than Stockton.
I agree with the others. You're wayyyyy off base with this one. Stockton was a tough gritty defender, had a wet jumper and was arguably the best pg ever. And I know that when you say stockton didn't take over games, your refering to his scoring. That wasn't his job. And why would you want to take the ball out of malones hand in the clutch (a guy who routinely put up 30 pt games) for your 6'1 pg? If stockton did that or tried to do that sloan woouldve killed him. Look at westbrook and dirant this year. Do you really think it was in the thunders best interest to go away fron durant in favor of westbrook?

[97 bulls]

And dennis rodman is the most underrated player of the 90s.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I agree with the others. You're wayyyyy off base with this one. Stockton was a tough gritty defender, had a wet jumper and was arguably the best pg ever. And I know that when you say stockton didn't take over games, your refering to his scoring. That wasn't his job. And why would you want to take the ball out of malones hand in the clutch (a guy who routinely put up 30 pt games) for your 6'1 pg? If stockton did that or tried to do that sloan woouldve killed him. Look at westbrook and dirant this year. Do you really think it was in the thunders best interest to go away fron durant in favor of westbrook?

No he was not arguably the best point guard ever, I've seen quite a few point guards as good or better, and he has absolutely no case against Magic.

Who said take the ball out of Malone's hands? But you often need more than 1 scorer to be successful, and the Jazz could've used that, Stockton just wasn't capable of taking over a game like that. He could get a solid amount of points in the flow of the offense, but wasn't a dominant player.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Cedric Ceballos



No he was not arguably the best point guard ever, I've seen quite a few point guards as good or better, and he has absolutely no case against Magic.

What you have seen is very arguable 'cause you wrote once that you rather pick Nick Anderson over Robert Horry and Denis Scott over Glen Rice

[Suckafree]

No he was not arguably the best point guard ever, I've seen quite a few point guards as good or better, and he has absolutely no case against Magic.

Who said take the ball out of Malone's hands? But you often need more than 1 scorer to be successful, and the Jazz could've used that, Stockton just wasn't capable of taking over a game like that. He could get a solid amount of points in the flow of the offense, but wasn't a dominant player.

C'mon dude. up until now I've thought you were a really good poster. But you're really, really wrong on this one

[Bogus_Sting]

Jayson Williams.

Career ended too early, should have never bought a gun.

[blazerjimmy]

Jeff Hornacek

[NugzHeat3]

Who gives a **** about subjective trash like All-NBA teams or MVP voting that heavily factors in team success and reputation amongst the media? I'm sure Kobe was better than Wade last year. :rolleyes:

It's not revisonism when you shared a different opinion than the media back then.

I would take prime KJ over Stockton too, for the record. KJ was a much more dominant scorer and a better man defender. He combined scoring and playmaking to perfection unlike Stockton who I thought often hurt his team by not looking for his shot enough.

However, there's a few drawbacks since KJ was never healthy and he had a rather short prime.

Stockton definitely gets overrated now while Karl Malone gets underrated. People have this image of Karl choking every single time while Stockton was the one making the big plays when in reality, it was the other way round save for a few isolated instances.

Nobody mentions Stockton's shortcomings which there were plenty of.

[sh0wtime]

Mitch Richmond
Glen Rice
Chris Mullin
Mark Price
Drazen Petrovic
Dell Curry
Dale Ellis
Jeff Hornacek
Dan Majerle
Rik Smits
Tim Hardaway

[heyhey]

KJ is like Gilbert Arenas, the man was dominant for a stretch but cut down by injuries

and Stockton is like Nash, consistently great for more years

[FindingTim]

Mookie Blaylock, Terrel Brandon and yes, Scottie Pippen.

[lefthook00]

Mitch

Richmond!!!!!

[Kblaze8855]

KJ suddenly got overrated in like 2006 or so. And it really was due to one guy(gmat) making him out to be more than he was with a gang of articles and numbers and convincing a bunch of people who never saw him in his prime or did and didnt remember him well he was great when few at the time put him that highly.

I remember very clearly...virtually everyone had Tom Chambers as the man on those teams. But suddenly hes KJs sidekick and KJ was better than guys he was barely mentioned with at the time.

He had numbers partly due to his legit talent and partly due to one of the highest tempo teams of all time in an era where EVERY good PG had crazy numbers. Michael Adams doing 27/11, Stockton 17/15, Hardaway 23/10 on 48%, Magic 23/12/7, and so on. The late 80s/early 90s west created the most absurd PG numbers ever off teams like the Suns and Lakers dropping 119 a game and the Nuggets giving up 131 a game(always looks like a typo...it isnt). 6 teams in the first year I checked scored 115 or more and 4 of the mwere in the Suns division and a 5th in the west as well. clippers, Nuggets, Warriors...all giving up over 116 points a game.

Teams were running and running and running.And 20 years later people who dont seem to remember that take the numbers at face value. Give an elite point a team with 4-5 all star type scorers and run them to death...he might get 22/12. Chris Paul did it walking it up just off halfcourt brilliance.

KJ belongs in the conversation with the best points of his time. But many put him at the top of it. And only like 3 people in the world did at the itme. And lal 3 of the msaid it after they beat the Lakers once. and nobody ever said it again.

Mark Price would have beat KJ in a poll in the early 90s I bet. But lose by a wide margin if you ask people here who dont remember either one.

And that amuses me.

[magnax1]

:roll: Stockton is overrated in general, but you take it to a new level. He was NEVER a top 5 player, and it's NOT debatable. Anyone who watches games objectively and has the intelligence/knowledge to analyze the game will know this.

Stockton was a smart player and a very good passer who ran the offense well, but he was in the ideal system for him playing with the ideal teammate for him in Karl Malone. Benefitted as well, but of course, was a much better player than Stockton.
Anybody who watches games objectively doesn't say that KJ is an MVP caliber player. That's what isn't debatable. If you're looking at it objectively, Stockton was pretty close to top 5 multiple times. Jordan Hakeem Barkley Robinson Drexler and Ewing being the only guys who were consistently better then him in the late 80s early 90s. But it's not even Debatable that he was borderline top 5?

[NugzHeat3]

KJ suddenly got overrated in like 2006 or so. And it really was due to one guy(gmat) making him out to be more than he was with a gang of articles and numbers and convincing a bunch of people who never saw him in his prime or did and didnt remember him well he was great when few at the time put him that highly.

I remember very clearly...virtually everyone had Tom Chambers as the man on those teams. But suddenly hes KJs sidekick and KJ was better than guys he was barely mentioned with at the time.

He had numbers partly due to his legit talent and partly due to one of the highest tempo teams of all time in an era where EVERY good PG had crazy numbers. Michael Adams doing 27/11, Stockton 17/15, Hardaway 23/10 on 48%, Magic 23/12/7, and so on. The late 80s/early 90s west created the most absurd PG numbers ever off teams like the Suns and Lakers dropping 119 a game and the Nuggets giving up 131 a game(always looks like a typo...it isnt). 6 teams in the first year I checked scored 115 or more and 4 of the mwere in the Suns division and a 5th in the west as well. clippers, Nuggets, Warriors...all giving up over 116 points a game.

Teams were running and running and running.And 20 years later people who dont seem to remember that take the numbers at face value. Give an elite point a team with 4-5 all star type scorers and run them to death...he might get 22/12. Chris Paul did it walking it up just off halfcourt brilliance.

KJ belongs in the conversation with the best points of his time. But many put him at the top of it. And only like 3 people in the world did at the itme. And lal 3 of the msaid it after they beat the Lakers once. and nobody ever said it again.

Mark Price would have beat KJ in a poll in the early 90s I bet. But lose by a wide margin if you ask people here who dont remember either one.

And that amuses me.

Hindsight is 20/20.

I would compare this to the Nash/Amare situation. Nash was clearly more valuable than Amare despite Amare being superior statistically with the difference being Nash actually got recognized while KJ didn't.

I don't know how anyone can say those Suns' were not KJ's teams in retrospect.

Chambers benefitted more from KJ than vice versa.He was also soft and didn't play a lick of defense.

Those Suns had a deadly two man game and KJ would always get him good looks in transition and through P&Rs.

Chambers had two of his best seasons ever playing next to KJ. After those seasons, Chambers had a huge drop off in 1991 when he only did 20/6 on a pathetically low shooting percent for a big man yet the Suns actually won 1 more game than they did in 1990. They still won 53 games the next year with Chambers having an even worse season.

An injury prone KJ also had some good seasons like doing 20/10 with Barkley dominating the ball so I don't think pace affected his numbers a great deal but of course he benefitted from it just like any other PG did and would.

In 1997, KJ led the Suns to the playoffs when everybody expected them to be dogshit after Barkley left. He also missed 12 games that year where the Suns went 1-11 without him. That trade for Jason Kidd really helped them take off.

KJ wasn't an all star this year because those games he missed came early in the season and the Suns obviously had a poor record.

But how does he not make the All-NBA team that year? Did Penny really have a better season when he missed 11 more games than KJ did? Or Mitch Richmond whose Kings missed the playoffs. That's why I don't care about this stuff.

Sportswriters, the media can say whatever they want. Most of the time their opinion is worthless.

[ShaqAttack3234]

What you have seen is very arguable 'cause you wrote once that you rather pick Nick Anderson over Robert Horry and Denis Scott over Glen Rice

mid 90's Nick Anderson was clearly a better player than 2000-2002 Robert Horry and mid 90's Dennis Scott was clearly better than 2000 Glen Rice, I wasn't talking about prime Glen Rice, I was talking about an aging post-elbow surgery Glen Rice, so yes, my choice is obvious.


Anybody who watches games objectively doesn't say that KJ is an MVP caliber player. That's what isn't debatable. If you're looking at it objectively, Stockton was pretty close to top 5 multiple times. Jordan Hakeem Barkley Robinson Drexler and Ewing being the only guys who were consistently better then him in the late 80s early 90s. But it's not even Debatable that he was borderline top 5?

Malone was also consistently better and up until he retired in 1991, so was Magic. You named 6 who were hands down better(not even naming the debatable guys) and I added 2 more who obviously better.

[NugzHeat3]

Nick Anderson was better than Horry up until he missed 4 straight at the line. I would never want Anderson over Horry on my team after that happened.

I don't know what happened to him. I don't like calling players chokers since there's usually a reason as to why they don't perform well down the stretch but he pretty much defines the term.

He just had a mental block that he couldn't hit FTs since then.

He was actually pretty clutch before that whole fiasco and he hit a game winner in the playoffs at some point.

People don't remember but he had a 50 point game off the bench in the game Shaq broke the back board against New Jersey. He also played big in Shaq's return to the ORena.

He had good all around skills.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

mid 90's Nick Anderson was clearly a better player than 2000-2002 Robert Horry and mid 90's Dennis Scott was clearly better than 2000 Glen Rice, I wasn't talking about prime Glen Rice, I was talking about an aging post-elbow surgery Glen Rice, so yes, my choice is obvious.

clearly

[ShaqAttack3234]

Nick Anderson was better than Horry up until he missed 4 straight at the line. I would never want Anderson over Horry on my team after that happened.

I don't know what happened to him. I don't like calling players chokers since there's usually a reason as to why they don't perform well down the stretch but he pretty much defines the term.

He just had a mental block that he couldn't hit FTs since then.

He was actually pretty clutch before that whole fiasco and he hit a game winner in the playoffs at some point.

People don't remember but he had a 50 point game off the bench in the game Shaq broke the back board against New Jersey. He also played big in Shaq's return to the ORena.

He had good all around skills.

Yeah, he could shoot, post up, pass, was a decent defender and prior to his breakdown in the finals, did actually have a reputation as a clutch player.


clearly

:oldlol: at you being sarcastic. Anderson was a borderline all-star before his collapse and Dennis Scott was doing the one thing Rice could do post-elbow surgery and doing it better than he was, which was shoot. You'd really take 2000-2002 Horry over Anderson and 2000 Rice over mid 90's Dennis Scott?

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

:oldlol: at you being sarcastic. Anderson was a borderline all-star before his collapse and Dennis Scott was doing the one thing Rice could do post-elbow surgery and doing it better than he was, which was shoot. You'd really take 2000-2002 Horry over Anderson and 2000 Rice over mid 90's Dennis Scott?
You didn't watch Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson play.
That's why i find using of that adverb so funny

[Orlando Magic]

Michael Jordan.

He would rip your heart out and eat your children for a victory. Of which the likes has yet to be seen again. GOAT status or not... most underrated of the 90s. Didn't sweep MVP voting. Laughable.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You didn't watch Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson play.
That's why i find using of that adverb so funny

Actually, I did. And you'd have to be a moron to think that 2000-2002 Robert Horry was a better player than prime Nick Anderson and I'd love to heat your case for 2000 Glen Rice over Dennis Scott when he was on those contending Magic teams.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Actually, I did. And you'd have to be a moron to think that 2000-2002 Robert Horry was a better player than prime Nick Anderson and I'd love to heat your case for 2000 Glen Rice over Dennis Scott when he was on those contending Magic teams.
Easy with the 'moron' word there.I'm not the one who listens heavy metal music.
And,no ,you didn't watch them.We both know it's true

[Kblaze8855]

Hindsight is 20/20.

I would compare this to the Nash/Amare situation. Nash was clearly more valuable than Amare despite Amare being superior statistically with the difference being Nash actually got recognized while KJ didn't.

I don't know how anyone can say those Suns' were not KJ's teams in retrospect.

Chambers benefitted more from KJ than vice versa.He was also soft and didn't play a lick of defense.

Those Suns had a deadly two man game and KJ would always get him good looks in transition and through P&Rs.

Chambers had two of his best seasons ever playing next to KJ. After those seasons, Chambers had a huge drop off in 1991 when he only did 20/6 on a pathetically low shooting percent for a big man yet the Suns actually won 1 more game than they did in 1990. They still won 53 games the next year with Chambers having an even worse season.

Cmon. Lets not act like Tom Chambers was really made by KJ. He was like 30 when he got to the Suns. He was putting up numbers in 1981. He was an all star and all star MVP in Seattle. He had just helped lead a team to the WCF putting up good numbers doing it despite being one of 3 scoring forwards doing 20+ a game. He showed in Seattle that he could play well. And do more if given the chance. He put up 23 and 26 a game in his last 2 playoff runs before Phoenix. He was handing out 40 point games(plural...) before he ever played with KJ. Now yes he peaked numbers wise on the suns but...who on those teams didnt?

KJ did. Thunder Dan did. Eddie Johnson did. Hornacek did. They were scoring 119 a game in a conference playing no defense and running their asses off. Doesnt mean he suddenly learned to play. KJ helped him become better and he helped KJ. But dude was out there just getting buckets. He could shoot midrange and from 3. He could finish around the basket and draw contact. He was quick on his feet around the basket and had great hands. Year he had his 60 point game he had 56 a little before it. He could just score. Period. A bigman dropping 26-27 a game? He gets the credit for his team winning in every case I can think of other than Nash/Amare.

Chambers got made into a sidekick out of the blue in the 2000s. Some then said it was KJs team...of course. But generally Tom was that teams star as I remember it. Im sure he would credit KJ a lot. as he should. But he shouldnt have the sidekick status it seems many want to give him.

Tom was doing some serious heavy lifting on those teams.



An injury prone KJ also had some good seasons like doing 20/10 with Barkley dominating the ball so I don't think pace affected his numbers a great deal but of course he benefitted from it just like any other PG did and would.

In 1997, KJ led the Suns to the playoffs when everybody expected them to be dogshit after Barkley left. He also missed 12 games that year where the Suns went 1-11 without him. That trade for Jason Kidd really helped them take off.

KJ wasn't an all star this year because those games he missed came early in the season and the Suns obviously had a poor record.

But how does he not make the All-NBA team that year? Did Penny really have a better season when he missed 11 more games than KJ did? Or Mitch Richmond whose Kings missed the playoffs. That's why I don't care about this stuff.

Sportswriters, the media can say whatever they want. Most of the time their opinion is worthless.

Im thinking the general opinion of most would have been that Penny was better. And mitch? Now he is underrated. He played every part of the game well and wasted away invisible out there. I dont know what season was better. Depends on how you judge a season. But im not mad at Mitch getting all nba over KJ.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Easy with the 'moron' word there.I'm not the one who listens heavy metal music.
And,no ,you didn't watch them.We both know it's true

:oldlol: What do my tastes in music have to do with my intelligence? Let me guess, you're only knowledge of heavy metal is the garbage that's been played on the radio the last 15 years, right? And while we're at, what music do you listen to?

And no, I did watch them, I find it funny when someone like you(whose probably in their teens) thinks it's some kind of rare feat to have watched players play in the mid 90's, anyone in their mid 20's and older could've done that depending on when you started watching basketball. I started watching in '93, how long have you been watching basketball while we're on the subject?

And just as I thought, no argument from you on 2000 Horry/Rice vs 1995/1996 Anderson/Scott

[Fatal9]

KJ suddenly got overrated in like 2006 or so. And it really was due to one guy(gmat) making him out to be more than he was with a gang of articles and numbers and convincing a bunch of people who never saw him in his prime or did and didnt remember him well he was great when few at the time put him that highly.

I remember very clearly...virtually everyone had Tom Chambers as the man on those teams. But suddenly hes KJs sidekick and KJ was better than guys he was barely mentioned with at the time.

He had numbers partly due to his legit talent and partly due to one of the highest tempo teams of all time in an era where EVERY good PG had crazy numbers. Michael Adams doing 27/11, Stockton 17/15, Hardaway 23/10 on 48%, Magic 23/12/7, and so on. The late 80s/early 90s west created the most absurd PG numbers ever off teams like the Suns and Lakers dropping 119 a game and the Nuggets giving up 131 a game(always looks like a typo...it isnt). 6 teams in the first year I checked scored 115 or more and 4 of the mwere in the Suns division and a 5th in the west as well. clippers, Nuggets, Warriors...all giving up over 116 points a game.

Teams were running and running and running.And 20 years later people who dont seem to remember that take the numbers at face value. Give an elite point a team with 4-5 all star type scorers and run them to death...he might get 22/12. Chris Paul did it walking it up just off halfcourt brilliance.

KJ belongs in the conversation with the best points of his time. But many put him at the top of it. And only like 3 people in the world did at the itme. And lal 3 of the msaid it after they beat the Lakers once. and nobody ever said it again.

Mark Price would have beat KJ in a poll in the early 90s I bet. But lose by a wide margin if you ask people here who dont remember either one.

And that amuses me.
This. First thing you can notice within minutes of watching most of those Western conference teams is the number of free points available in transition because teams are trying to outgun each other. Run up, strike your small forward on the wing for an open jumper/lane, assist.

Also, Chambers was the one getting MVP votes at the time, not KJ. Chambers was getting a lot of praise for shifting his game a little bit in Phoenix. He improved his shot selection, was seen as the leader of a 50+ win team (KJ was just breaking out at the time, so maybe he didn't get the credit he deserved) and had shed the "selfish" label from his Seattle days which caused him to beef with a lot of teammates. I don't think he was more important than KJ (honestly don't know, I've mainly seen their playoff games and KJ was a bit better, mainly because when Chambers had a bad shooting game it got ugly, he could look useless) but you can't just relegate him to being a sidekick. That was a really close series they lost to the Blazers or they'd have made the finals.

[rodman91]

Mitch Richmond
Glen Rice
Chris Mullin
Mark Price
Drazen Petrovic
Dell Curry
Dale Ellis
Jeff Hornacek
Dan Majerle
Rik Smits
Tim Hardaway

These.Also these i can remember.Mostly pretty good but forgotten players..

Kevin Willis
Steve Smith
Mookie Blaylock
Damon Stoudamire
Juwon Howard (he was overrated in 90's though)
Terrel Brandon (he was overrated too back then)
Tom Gugliotta
Hersey Hawkins
Clifford Robinson
Cedric Ceballos
Christian Laettner
Ron Harper
Jayson Williams (short prime but very good rebounder & defender)
Derrick Coleman
Kenny Anderson
Detlef Schrempf

And many more probably.

[HB40TheNextStar]

Antonio McDyess, Antonio Daniels, and Antonio Davis.

[Round Mound]

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu130/idunno271828/Funny%20Pics/GaryColemanJokingRight.gif

Kemp

Defensive Rating

1992-93 NBA 100.0 (7)
1993-94 NBA 95.8 (4)
1995-96 NBA 97.1 (2)
1996-97 NBA 99.0 (10)
1997-98 NBA 96.1 (3)

Defensive Win Shares

1992-93 NBA 5.1 (7)
1993-94 NBA 6.0 (8)
1994-95 NBA 4.7 (9)
1995-96 NBA 6.1 (4)
1996-97 NBA 5.4 (9)
1997-98 NBA 5.9 (4)
Career NBA 52.2 (35)

Kemp was not just flashy dunks :no: . The dude was a Great Defender and yes a had more Impact Defensively than Payton

[rodman91]

Kemp was not just flashy dunks :no: . The dude was a Great Defender and yes a had more Impact Defensively than Payton[/B]

Kemp usually remembered with flashy dunks but he was very skilled big man.Also His impact was much beyond than his stats. I mean his stats were usually at 18 & 10 but in mid 90's ,his impact in the league was much bigger than those stats.Weird.

[Dwade305]

Kevin Willis.......WOuld shut Dwight down these days

[Xsatyr]

Has anyone said Jodan yet?

I was not even ten when I started to appreciate Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond. They were the first players I started to like that were not on the Rockets. Before them I hated other teams but I loved watching them play.

[Hondo]

PG: Tim Hardaway/ Rod Strickland
SG: Mitch Richmond/ Jeff Hornacek
SF: Detlef Schrempf/ Dale Ellis
PF: Larry Nance/ Otis Thorpe
CT: Rony Seikaly/ Brad Daugherty

Notice something about all of these guys? None of them are from the big markets.

[magnax1]

Malone was also consistently better and up until he retired in 1991, so was Magic. You named 6 who were hands down better(not even naming the debatable guys) and I added 2 more who obviously better.
I'm guessing you mean Magic was better until 91 and so was Karl Malone. Malone wasn't until the mid 90s when he developed a consistent self sustained post game (mostly based off his jumpshot/turn around though) became less turnover prone, a better defender and a better passer. In the early 90s Utah, including Malone, relied heavily on Stockton to score in the halfcourt. The opposite was true in the late 90s when Stockton declined quickly and Malone continued to improve until 99/00. Really, no one else is that debatable off the top of my head though.
And my point was that he was around the top 5 through out his prime from 88-92. You aren't making much of an argument against it. 6 guys for most of his prime, and 1 other guy for part of it.

[bizil]

I'm guessing you mean Magic was better until 91 and so was Karl Malone. Malone wasn't until the mid 90s when he developed a consistent self sustained post game (mostly based off his jumpshot/turn around though) became less turnover prone, a better defender and a better passer. In the early 90s Utah, including Malone, relied heavily on Stockton to score in the halfcourt. The opposite was true in the late 90s when Stockton declined quickly and Malone continued to improve until 99/00. Really, no one else is that debatable off the top of my head though.
And my point was that he was around the top 5 through out his prime from 88-92.

Great point about Malone. Karl Malone kept improving and improving as the years went on. He was truly like a fine wine. Even when Duncan, KG, Dirk,Webber, Mcdyess, Sheed,and that new breed of PF's came around, Malone did more than hold his own still. It was more a matter of those guys being 7 footers or some of them better ball handlers or had more range. That group of guys I named redefined the PF spot. But it wasn't so much Malone slipping a great deal. It was just a new breed of PF coming up. But as far as Malone himself, he had AWESOME longevity being a great player. And even though Dirk and Malone have totally different games, I see Dirk's talent arc in terms of gettin better with age like Malone's. Guys like TD and KG had such well rounded games early in their careers. And both have had that injury bug hit kinda hard as of late. Malone and Dirk have been lucky in the injury regard.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Kevin Willis.......Would shut Dwight down these days

this

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Atlanta%20Hawks/Kevin%20Willis/-.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/z%20Body%20and%20Muscle%20of/9e1a0955.jpg

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm guessing you mean Magic was better until 91 and so was Karl Malone. Malone wasn't until the mid 90s when he developed a consistent self sustained post game (mostly based off his jumpshot/turn around though) became less turnover prone, a better defender and a better passer. In the early 90s Utah, including Malone, relied heavily on Stockton to score in the halfcourt. The opposite was true in the late 90s when Stockton declined quickly and Malone continued to improve until 99/00. Really, no one else is that debatable off the top of my head though.
And my point was that he was around the top 5 through out his prime from 88-92. You aren't making much of an argument against it. 6 guys for most of his prime, and 1 other guy for part of it.

No, Malone was better for years, I agree that he improved as overall player as the 90's went on, he could already hit mid-range shots and score in the post, though. He just got better at those and his passing and defense did improve, but he was also more athletic when he was younger.

Players better than Stockton from '88-'92

1988
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Barkley
Hakeem
Nique
Malone
Isiah

Kevin McHale is debatable as well

1989
Jordan
Magic
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
KJ
Ewing

1990
Jordan
Magic
Ewing
Hakeem
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
KJ
Bird
Isiah

Drexler is debatable

1991
Jordan
Magic
Hakeem
Barkley
Robinson
Malone
Ewing

Drexler and Pippen are debatable

1992
Jordan
Robinson
Hakeem
Ewing
Malone
Drexler
Pippen
Barkley

KJ is debatable

[magnax1]

No, Malone was better for years, I agree that he improved as overall player as the 90's went on, he could already hit mid-range shots and score in the post, though. He just got better at those and his passing and defense did improve, but he was also more athletic when he was younger.
He had a post game, but it wasn't really a skill based or that terribly effective until maybe 92, and even after 92 it wasn't nearly as good as it was in 97/98. He really relied on getting out on the break and Stockton in the half court up until the mid 90s when he was able to consistently score without Stockton setting him up.



1988
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Barkley
Hakeem
Nique
Malone
Isiah

Kevin McHale is debatable as well

1989
Jordan
Magic
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
KJ
Ewing

1990
Jordan
Magic
Ewing
Hakeem
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
KJ
Bird
Isiah

Drexler is debatable

1991
Jordan
Magic
Hakeem
Barkley
Robinson
Malone
Ewing

Drexler and Pippen are debatable

1992
Jordan
Robinson
Hakeem
Ewing
Malone
Drexler
Pippen
Barkley

KJ is debatable

Isiah definitely wasn't better. He was neither efficient, nor could he put up a lot of volume scoring after 86 or 87. People say he sacrificed for the team, which is true in a way, but he also lost any sort of consistency that he had in the mid 80s. What I will say is that he was probably the best PG ever in his peak, or really close to it, but he fell off extremely fast. He sacrificed in the sense that if he played like he did from 84-87 (or whatever it was) in his championship years, he would've shot his team out of the games.
KJ is an obvious no, and I'd take Hardaway over him in pretty much every season you listed.
Malone and Pippen are no to me.
Drexler is probably a yes most years. Hakeem is pretty questionable in 91, he only played something like 45 games.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Otis Thorpe

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

:oldlol: What do my tastes in music have to do with my intelligence? Let me guess, you're only knowledge of heavy metal is the garbage that's been played on the radio the last 15 years, right? And while we're at, what music do you listen to?
And no, I did watch them, I find it funny when someone like you(whose probably in their teens) thinks it's some kind of rare feat to have watched players play in the mid 90's, anyone in their mid 20's and older could've done that depending on when you started watching basketball. I started watching in '93, how long have you been watching basketball while we're on the subject?
And just as I thought, no argument from you on 2000 Horry/Rice vs 1995/1996 Anderson/Scott
Wow,in '93 , you're my idol now

Players better than Stockton from '88-'92
clearly

[ShaqAttack3234]

He had a post game, but it wasn't really a skill based or that terribly effective until maybe 92, and even after 92 it wasn't nearly as good as it was in 97/98. He really relied on getting out on the break and Stockton in the half court up until the mid 90s when he was able to consistently score without Stockton setting him up.



Isiah definitely wasn't better. He was neither efficient, nor could he put up a lot of volume scoring after 86 or 87. People say he sacrificed for the team, which is true in a way, but he also lost any sort of consistency that he had in the mid 80s. What I will say is that he was probably the best PG ever in his peak, or really close to it, but he fell off extremely fast. He sacrificed in the sense that if he played like he did from 84-87 (or whatever it was) in his championship years, he would've shot his team out of the games.
KJ is an obvious no, and I'd take Hardaway over him in pretty much every season you listed.
Malone and Pippen are no to me.
Drexler is probably a yes most years. Hakeem is pretty questionable in 91, he only played something like 45 games.

I understand your opinion on Isiah to some extent, but what he was doing impressed me quite a bit more than what Stockton was doing.

Hakeem didn't play around 45 games in '91, he played 56.

KJ was a beast in '89 and '90. It isn't revisionist history either, Sports Illustrated ran an article in '90 talking about what a historically great level he was playing at.

Either way, it's obvious that we're never going to agree on Stockton, it's almost like we were watching two different players. As I've stated, his prime/peak has never stood out that much to me.


Wow,in '93 , you're my idol now
clearly

Congratulations, it can't be easy to become as much of a d*uchebag as you. Must've taken a lot of practice.

[Smoke117]

Kemp. Many forget he was the Best Sonics Defender

True..and hilarious how everyone that knows nothing about team basketball wants to to think Gary Payton was the anchor of the Seattle defense...