The Finals really ruined lebron - i mean just before the finals...

[Mamba]

Just before the Finals Lebron was being called the greatest the clutchest. everyone was losing their shit and their mothers at these games:

Lebron James 35 points against the boston celtics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOwCjHloLnI

especially at 2:16, when he was getting yelled at by the celtics bench aswell

or how about the very next game to seal the deal. the final 10 points? to kill off the celtics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lmEh1SGdT4

or how about the chicago series?

tied at 73 with 4 minutes to go, in game 2. what does lebron do? lose his shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDa7yHW5lNY

heat win by 10

every game lebron was amazing against chicago, however nothing was more unreal then his and dwayne wade busting a nut on chicago in game 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLMI784M4E

the crowd chanting miami sucks, derrick rose getting MVP chants. an 18-3 run to finish the game

i know lebron played like shit in the finals. but really after these games, i thought he and his team would win it all this season. God knows what happened in his mind in the Dallas series, but lets be serious. Lebron still kicked ass, in the prior two series, and haters, u can't hate on these games.

[28renyoy]

yet he still choked on the biggest stage in basketball

[Mamba]

yet he still choked on the biggest stage in basketball
never said he didn't. i know he did, but how can someone who did that ^^ just turn into a nothingman on the court.

[vegasdude]

He was definitely impressive before the biggest show. Lebron should just PLAY and stop TALKING. I like the guy as a basketball player minus the arrogance.

[PowerGlove]

Yeah if he would have sealed the deal, that would have been one of the greatest postseason runs I have ever seen. This dude was killing people.

The good thing is that we know he has it in him to finish games. Hopefully he will come back next year with some new moves and be more assertive.

[kaiiu]

Kind of crazy how a professional ******* can choke as much as Lebrick does

[KenneBell]

Yeah if he would have sealed the deal, that would have been one of the greatest postseason runs I have ever seen. This dude was killing people.

The good thing is that we know he has it in him to finish games. Hopefully he will come back next year with some new moves and be more assertive.
You can't be serious. Using just recent examples for non-championship playoff runs, his '09 run had he won would have been 10 times better. Kobe's '08 run up until the Game 4 of the '08 Finals was better as well.

[PowerGlove]

You can't be serious. Using just recent examples for non-championship playoff runs, his '09 run had he won would have been 10 times better. Kobe's '08 run up until the Game 4 of the '08 Finals was better as well.
Kobe's in 08????

I dont even remember anything before the WCF's to be honest.:oldlol: Obviously 09 would have been better though but I am saying if he got it done like he was doing it before, that would have been amazing. Lebron was ripping hearts out and dominating.

[KenneBell]

Kobe's in 08????
He was averaging 32/6/6 on 50% up to the Finals.


Obviously 09 would have been better though but I am saying if he got it done like he was doing it before, that would have been amazing. Lebron was ripping hearts out and dominating.
I guess but I didn't think it was all that great of a run. He had some good games and closed out well but statistically(26/9/5) and just watching the game, LeBron wasn't dominating enough to have an all-time great playoff run.

[PowerGlove]

He was averaging 32/6/6 on 50% up to the Finals.


I guess but I didn't think it was all that great of a run. He had some good games and closed out well but statistically(26/9/5) and just watching the game, LeBron wasn't dominating enough to have an all-time great playoff run.

you are so right, my homer side is taking over. sorry for the exaggeration.

I'm rewatching Kobe's 08 postseason.......damn, poor nuggets. Kenyon Martin???? Were they serious??? This team was horrendous.

[Collie]

Problem with Lebron is that when the opponents punch him in the mouth, he backs away and SHRINKS. He snowballs very well, when things are going great, he steps up to the occasion, but I feel he doesn't have that extra gear, that extra something that great players have when their backs are against the wall. I really think the Game 2 Dallas run shattered his confidence.

[kaiiu]

when the hell did 26 PPG on 45 % shooting and no gamewinners become dominating? :oldlol:

[PowerGlove]

Problem with Lebron is that when the opponents punch him in the mouth, he backs away and SHRINKS. He snowballs very well, when things are going great, he steps up to the occasion, but I feel he doesn't have that extra gear, that extra something that great players have when their backs are against the wall. I really think the Game 2 Dallas run shattered his confidence.

You just ignored game 5 against the Bulls? Game 4 against the C's?

[Da Heroic One]

You just ignored game 5 against the Bulls? Game 4 against the C's?
He started stepping up as soon as Wade hit big shots in the game. Especially that four-point play Wade got.

It's safe to call Lebron a front runner.

[Collie]

You just ignored game 5 against the Bulls? Game 4 against the C's?

Like I said, the Bulls were basically a beaten team by then. I'm not talking about clutch situations. He's a clutch guy WHEN the series is going their way. But really, when has Lebron ever won when his team was facing adversity? Like down 2 games or so? Closest I can think of is Detroit, but they were a tired team ready to be picked off. Orlando, he played great, but that was the exception than the rule, and they still lost anyway.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Doesn't change the fact that he choked. That's the definition by example of choking. You play at such a high level and come in as clear favorites, then you under-perform drastically on the biggest stage.

[PowerGlove]

Doesn't change the fact that he choked. That's the definition by example of choking. You play at such a high level and come in as clear favorites, then you under-perform drastically on the biggest stage.
:wtf:

We all know that he......:facepalm

[Kellogs4toniee]

:wtf:

We all know that he......:facepalm

Exercising my right of:

http://www.trademarkia.com/logo-images/novartis-ag/go-ahead-rub-it-in-77965558.jpg

[ChandlerParsons]

Wut u guise choking on

[Rysio]

the finals just showed his true colors. he's a sidekick that thinks he's batman and all he needed to do to win his first ring was play decent let wade dominate and win fmvp but bronzy would rather quit and get embarrassed than let that happen. :hammerhead:

[nbacardDOTnet]

the finals just showed his true colors. he's a sidekick that thinks he's batman and all he needed to do to win his first ring was play decent let wade dominate and win fmvp but bronzy would rather quit and get embarrassed than let that happen. :hammerhead:

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg

[kkling]

He started stepping up as soon as Wade hit big shots in the game. Especially that four-point play Wade got.

It's safe to call Lebron a front runner.

I had no idea someone making a shot means other people on the team automatically make their shots.

[Samurai Swoosh]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg
Technially this isn't even accurate

Game 1: Alley oop dunk after game had been decided

Actual total: 3 points

Game 3: Conceeded open floor layup after game had been decided

Actual total: 0 points

Total 4th quarter points for series: 7 points

:facepalm

[kkling]

Technially this isn't even accurate

Game 1: Alley oop dunk after game had been decided

Actual total: 3 points

Game 3: Conceeded open floor layup after game had been decided

Actual total: 0 points

Total 4th quarter points for series: 7 points

:facepalm

I don't think you understand what the word technically means.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I don't think you understand what the word technically means.
Yea, you're right ... it's actually the opposite. But you get the picture, and the point still stands.

[asdf1990]

Yea, you're right ... it's actually the opposite. But you get the picture, and the point still stands.

Y u so mad bro? cuz he raped the bulls? All you do is hate on lebron.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Y u so mad bro? cuz he raped the bulls? All you do is hate on lebron.
I hate on LeBron for his lack of respect for I game I hold near and dear. I hate on LeBron because he turned his back on his own potential. I hate on LeBron because he cheated a generation of fans out of greatness.

That's why I'm mad, bro.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron had a very good eastern conference run. No doubt.

However, Lebron played like a total scrub in the finals. And its going to really hurt his legacy....as it should.

Lebron has now played in 2 finals and he's been awful in both. He did deserve a pass for 07, but now it looks like he can't handle the pressure of playing on the biggest stage.

And its not like he walked into a an all time great team with no help or something. I don't think people understand what we just saw. We saw Dirk (not playing his best) and a bunch of specialists and role players beat a prime Wade/Lebron/Bosh in the finals. And the Heat had homecourt and a 2-1 series lead. And they blew a 15 point lead at home with 7 minutes to go.

I have defended Lebron here. And he often does deserve defending, but not for this. Lebron could not have come up smaller. Its impossible. He went from shutting down Rose to getting dominated by Terry. That isn't physical. Its mental.

Its one thing to play poorly. Like Kobe in 04. Kobe just didn't get it done. He didn't shrink from the moment and he wasn't afraid. I hate how Kobe played in that series and how he's played in the finals throughout his career, but he never just "wilted"......Lebron did.

Lebron lost his aggressiveness. He played "hot potato" with the ball in nearly every 4th qtr. He stopped playing any defense at all. He made mistakes high school coaches would be upset at their players for.

Lebron's legacy will remain tarnished for some time. Maybe forever....and it possibly should be.

The stakes are now even greater for Lebron going forward. He dropped in my rankings. I had him in the top 20 after this year, now he's around number 25 for me. When you play on a team as stacked as the Heat and can't get it even close to done in the finals....it hurts you.

If Lebron ever does something like this again in any playoff series, his legacy will be nothing. He'll never get over it.

Lebron has to win 3 titles in the next 5 years to repair this. And he has to win in impressive fashion. And if he does, he'll be up there in the top 10 range of players all time....right where he should be.

If he doesn't? He won't finish in the top 15 all time. He'd still have a great career, but nowhere near what he should have had. Like Simmons said recently, "Lebron got "everything".....he got blessed with the ability to do everything well on the court"....and he's wasting it.

[asdf1990]

I hate on LeBron for his lack of respect for I game I hold near and dear. I hate on LeBron because he turned his back on his own potential. I hate on LeBron because he cheated a generation of fans out of greatness.

That's why I'm mad, bro.

I don't get how he disrespected the game. He works on coming into training camp as fit as possible. He works on his game in the off season. He stays late after practice. There is a difference between acting like a arrogant douche vs disrespect for the game. Eddy curry disrespected the game.

He didn't turn on his own potential cuz he was living up to his potential up until the finals. He still has a shot to become the top 5 GOAT. He already dominated the regular season like a few have.

We witnessed greatness in the Eastern conference semis, and ECFs.

I want good players to be on good teams so they don't rot their primes away. Maybe you have a different view.

[rodman91]

Too early to say.He is still young and has a good team.If he wins some rings and perform well in finals first two will be forgetten for majority.

Kobe had such finals too in 2004. (22.6 ppg with %38 and 2.2 rpg &4.4 apg) What will do next is matters.

[thejumpa]

He's 26 and has a lot of basketball left in him. A LOT. As long as he wins, all this will be forgotten.

[eldanielfire]

He's 26 and has a lot of basketball left in him. A LOT. As long as he wins, all this will be forgotten.


Is that so certain? I don't think his career will end anytime soon but he's a flawed player with no post game, no clutch ability and some people have noticed he is appearing to lose some of his athlectism that is essential to his game.

[Jameerthefear]

ESPN has always PO'd me with their coverage of players. When someone is doing great (Lebron) they worship him, call him the GOAT and the Chosen One. Soon as the player does bad, they turn on them.

[Kellogs4toniee]

He's 26 and has a lot of basketball left in him. A LOT. As long as he wins, all this will be forgotten.


This is so true. If Lebron somehow wins 4 championships in the next decade, 20 years down the road revisionist history will summarize his career as one of the most dominant players to ever play the game who won 4 rings.

Which is why it is so important to rub it in right now in case that happens for those who dislike Lebron :rockon:

[Heavincent]

I really don't think Lebron's playoff run up to the finals was THAT great. It was okay, but I've seen far better.

[Indian guy]

The complete shift in coverage and people's perception of LeBron during the EC playoffs is a testament to how winning DRIVES everything. An athlete's entire image is result-oriented. You win, and people view you positively - as was the case with LeBron pre-Finals. You lose, and everything you didn't do in order to win is put under the microscope.

This is for those idiots who think LeBron's image is irredeemable or he has to do something beyond-the-court to change how people view him. NOBODY gives a crap about how arrogant you are, what you say or whom you fu*ked over AS LONG AS you kick ass on the court. As long as you win, you have everybody's respect. That's what LeBron lacks right now - people's respect for him as a player. Winning while playing well will cure all of that.

[Indian guy]

I really don't think Lebron's playoff run up to the finals was THAT great. It was okay, but I've seen far better.

You are right, but the whole "LeBron's never played better!" talk that was so prevalent during the playoffs is just another testament to how winning completely dominates your image. All LeBron had to do was play reasonably well and come through late in games and he was suddenly playing better than ever, which was a joke if you had actually followed the guy's career. 10-11 LeBron wasn't even 90% the player he was the previous 2 seasons.

[asdf1990]

I really don't think Lebron's playoff run up to the finals was THAT great. It was okay, but I've seen far better.

Name me some better ones you have seen from other wing players not named Jordan.

[asdf1990]

You are right, but the whole "LeBron's never played better!" talk that was so prevalent during the playoffs is just another testament to how winning completely dominates your image. All LeBron had to do was play reasonably well and come through late in games and he was suddenly playing better than ever, which was a joke if you had actually followed the guy's career. 10-11 LeBron wasn't even 90% the player he was the previous 2 seasons.

Its not about the monster numbers, its about him breaking hearts like only Jordan did in the 90s. Going on the road and repeatedly delivering daggers, idc if you are a hater of what the semis and ECF was greatness .

[rodman91]

Name me some better ones you have seen from other wing players not named Jordan.

There are many in league history.For last decade Kobe,Iverson,Wade i can remember.

[Indian guy]

Its not about the monster numbers, its about him breaking hearts like only Jordan did in the 90s. Going on the road and repeatedly delivering daggers, idc if you are a hater of what the semis and ECF was greatness .

He wasn't doing anything at the end of games in these series' that he hadn't done before while putting up much better numbers on far better efficiency. You, like everybody else, are just being blinded by the W's.

[guy]

He was averaging 32/6/6 on 50% up to the Finals.


I guess but I didn't think it was all that great of a run. He had some good games and closed out well but statistically(26/9/5) and just watching the game, LeBron wasn't dominating enough to have an all-time great playoff run.

Stats don't tell the whole story. He was extremely clutch in the Celtics and Bulls series and was a beast defensively. I haven't seen perimeter defense like that since Jordan and Pippen. He was hitting big shots when they needed it most. I remember looking at his stats through the ECF and being surprised they weren't better, much like I was surprised Dirk only 42% in the Finals. Like I said, stats don't tell the whole story. I wouldn't say he was better then 09, but I think it would easily be his 2nd best playoff run if it wasn't for the horrible Finals. Even with the horrible Finals, it still arguably is his 2nd best.

[BlueandGold]

never said he didn't. i know he did, but how can someone who did that ^^ just turn into a nothingman on the court.
Then /end argument.

[Indian guy]

Even with the horrible Finals, it still arguably is his 2nd best.

:oldlol:

There isn't a single metric supporting 2011 even as a Top 5 playoff run by LeBron. And it only gets worse if I throw numbers out the window, and strictly judge him by on-court play.

[DMAVS41]

The complete shift in coverage and people's perception of LeBron during the EC playoffs is a testament to how winning DRIVES everything. An athlete's entire image is result-oriented. You win, and people view you positively - as was the case with LeBron pre-Finals. You lose, and everything you didn't do in order to win is put under the microscope.

This is for those idiots who think LeBron's image is irredeemable or he has to do something beyond-the-court to change how people view him. NOBODY gives a crap about how arrogant you are, what you say or whom you fu*ked over AS LONG AS you kick ass on the court. As long as you win, you have everybody's respect. That's what LeBron lacks right now - people's respect for him as a player. Winning while playing well will cure all of that.

Some of this is true. Although Lebron wouldn't be getting half of this hate if he had played average instead of terrible.

Wade isn't getting much hate because he played well and lost.

But yes, you are right that winning will cure this. The problem is that we are grading Lebron on a certain curve. He's already one of the 20 to 25 best players of all time. He will, barring injury, go down as one of the best players of all time.

But his ceiling was a top 5 player of all time....maybe even higher as recent as 2 or 3 seasons ago. I don't think he has much of a chance to reach that anymore. Some of that is not his fault. Some of it is.

Can Lebron change the perception about him and make a run at the top 10 of all time? Sure. Can he make a run that matches his all time ranking with his talent/potential? Doubtful at this point.

And I think that is why he gets so much hate. In the past it really wasn't deserved. Lebron's first 7 years were amazing. He came up short only a few times and it was perfectly reasonable as he's a human being and not perfect. Very few players in the history of the game, if any, did more with less than Lebron did with the Cavs from 07 to 10.

But his last 2 years hurt him a lot. In the heart of his prime, he came up really small against the Celtics in 10 and then absolutely fell apart on the biggest stage in the NBA......with a loaded team at that. That is going to seriously hurt his legacy forever.

[24r2]

because pippen said he is better than jordon

[winwin]

''a low self esteem prostitute who wishes to see much more women engaged in prostitution''

that's Lebron and his jockers

Lebron is the prostitute of the NBA
his jockers are the prostitute of ISH

[Heavincent]

idc if you are a hater of what the semis and ECF was greatness .

Not really. He was pretty good, but I've seen far better.

[cotdt]

you are so right, my homer side is taking over. sorry for the exaggeration.

I'm rewatching Kobe's 08 postseason.......damn, poor nuggets. Kenyon Martin???? Were they serious??? This team was horrendous.

That's right, Kobe in his prime was Godlike.

[kaiiu]

Lebrons 2010 1st round vs Bulls>>>> any series he had this year.

[Jasper]

Do we all consider Shaq's career with all the awards , and 4 rings a flaw :confusedshrug:

I myself feel it is what it is , but in all honesty , if Shaq would of been more of a professional athlete , and concentrated on the game 10-11 months of the year it is quite possible he could of won 8 chips.

Alot of luck also has to work for a player , with rosters and opponents unless your a dominate team as was the Celtics and russel and the Bulls and Jordan.

I would not put it out of reason that Bron could get 6 rings ,but it also means he would need roster restructuring for his team to make a chase of it.

Needless to say if he had brought his 'A game' in the finals and not taken D-Wades comment to heart , he would of gotten his first chip.

[WeGetRing2012]

Yeah if he would have sealed the deal, that would have been one of the greatest postseason runs I have ever seen. This dude was killing people.

The good thing is that we know he has it in him to finish games. Hopefully he will come back next year with some new moves and be more assertive.

:wtf: :wtf:

[guy]

:oldlol:

There isn't a single metric supporting 2011 even as a Top 5 playoff run by LeBron. And it only gets worse if I throw numbers out the window, and strictly judge him by on-court play.

Tell me which one was inarguably better then besides 2009? They made the Finals in 2007, but he wasn't that spectacular aside from one all-time great game. He had some of his worse performances against the Celtics in 08. And despite the stats, he completely melted down in 2010.

[KenneBell]

Stats don't tell the whole story. He was extremely clutch in the Celtics and Bulls series and was a beast defensively. I haven't seen perimeter defense like that since Jordan and Pippen. He was hitting big shots when they needed it most. I remember looking at his stats through the ECF and being surprised they weren't better, much like I was surprised Dirk only 42% in the Finals. Like I said, stats don't tell the whole story. I wouldn't say he was better then 09, but I think it would easily be his 2nd best playoff run if it wasn't for the horrible Finals. Even with the horrible Finals, it still arguably is his 2nd best.
Like I said, statistically and watching the games, I didn't think his run was all that great up through the ECF...he had some great games but it wasn't the dominance we saw in '09.

[kaiiu]

lol at ppl saying his defense was great. He got torched by Pierce, Deng, Marion and Terry.

[DCL]

everyone only remembers you from the last series. ask dirk in 2006.

lebron might had done alright all the way up to the finals, but no one will remember that.

he'll only be remembered for being missing in 2011. those 5 games kinda paint the main picture, justly or not, of his playoff efforts. even though it ignores all the games before that, but that's just how it is. nobody remembers how well dirk played up to game 2 of the '06 finals. they just remember the final meltdown.

[thejumpa]

Is that so certain? I don't think his career will end anytime soon but he's a flawed player with no post game, no clutch ability and some people have noticed he is appearing to lose some of his athlectism that is essential to his game.

I see what you're saying but let's keep it real for a second. It's basketball. A simple game of putting a ball into a hole. No matter how old you are, you can always find ways to improve and become a better player. Even after gaining a little weight, having some miles on his knees/legs, and playing a completely different role than he's had to do in his career, he was STILL a better player in 2010-11 than he was in any other year. I have no reason to believe he's not going to be a better player next year. I dunno...that's how I look at the situation. It's not like he's gonna turn 35 overnight. 26 is young. Post game, shooting, footwork...those things can be worked on and improved and he has the time to do so.

[WeGetRing2012]

Too early to say.He is still young and has a good team.If he wins some rings and perform well in finals first two will be forgetten for majority.

Kobe had such finals too in 2004. (22.6 ppg with %38 and 2.2 rpg &4.4 apg) What will do next is matters.

Kobe and Lebron cant be mentioned as equals ever again. Kobe has proven he is a different kind of beast. Even in that bad 2004 Finals he still had 3 rings, he hit a clutch 3 to give us a win in game 2, and he was actually going through major personal issues ( court in the morning, games at night). So dont try to compare them Lebron has failed in this fashion over and over again...

[DMAVS41]

Kobe and Lebron cant be mentioned as equals ever again. Kobe has proven he is a different kind of beast. Even in that bad 2004 Finals he still had 3 rings, he hit a clutch 3 to give us a win in game 2, and he was actually going through major personal issues ( court in the morning, games at night). So dont try to compare them Lebron has failed in this fashion over and over again...

I think that is going way too far as Lebron still has a lot of years left.

I hurt his legacy no doubt, but Kobe of all people has had plenty of failings in the playoffs and finals.

We can speculate on what is likely or not, but writing off a player is something that should never really be done.

Cough....Dirk...Cough

[guy]

Kobe and Lebron cant be mentioned as equals ever again. Kobe has proven he is a different kind of beast. Even in that bad 2004 Finals he still had 3 rings, he hit a clutch 3 to give us a win in game 2, and he was actually going through major personal issues ( court in the morning, games at night). So dont try to compare them Lebron has failed in this fashion over and over again...

Kobe hasn't been that good in the Finals either, and I wouldn't say he's been that much better in the other rounds of the playoffs either. I could easily see lebron still ending up as thw better player.

[WeGetRing2012]

I think that is going way too far as Lebron still has a lot of years left.

I hurt his legacy no doubt, but Kobe of all people has had plenty of failings in the playoffs and finals.

We can speculate on what is likely or not, but writing off a player is something that should never really be done.

Cough....Dirk...Cough

Thats just not true. As he come up short during some runs yeah but most players have. But you know without a doubt that he gave 110% at all times. There is no way you can get 5 rings as a main guy without being great when your team needs you the most. Can you say the same about Lebron? Hell no. When it gets tough for him he just quits and heading into his 9th year and still playing like this is not Kobe-like,Jordan-Like, or Greatest basketball player-like.

[WeGetRing2012]

Kobe hasn't been that good in the Finals either, and I wouldn't say he's been that much better in the other rounds of the playoffs either. I could easily see lebron still ending up as thw better player.

5-7 not that great? :lol

[Samurai Swoosh]

I could easily see lebron still ending up as thw better player.
Good point. Kobe lost in two Finals. Didn't play particularly well in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2010.

Needs to polish up some skills, lose some weight so he can still take people off the dribble, keep his defensive intensity up (played bad defense in the Finals) and you're absolutely right.

[Da Heroic One]

Good point. Kobe lost in two Finals. Didn't play particularly well in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2010.

Needs to polish up some skills, lose some weight so he can still take people off the dribble, keep his defensive intensity up (played bad defense in the Finals) and you're absolutely right.
so he is never going to be better than kobe? :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

so he is never going to be better than kobe? :oldlol:
Huh?

[Da Heroic One]

Huh?
you're saying once lebron does all of that he will be better than kobe right? the chances of him doing any of that are slim to none. he is never going to have a post game, he supposedly got one or was working on it in the summer of 2009 but he never did.

lebron doesn't have the work-ethic or heart that kobe has, lebron is like tommy gunn from rocky v.

[WeGetRing2012]

Good point. Kobe lost in two Finals. Didn't play particularly well in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2010.

Needs to polish up some skills, lose some weight so he can still take people off the dribble, keep his defensive intensity up (played bad defense in the Finals) and you're absolutely right.

Kobe played fine in 2000,2008,and 2010 (dont let 6/24 fool you go back and look at the box scores).

[Jacks3]

Kobe played fine in 2000,2008,and 2010 (dont let 6/24 fool you go back and look at the box scores).
lol @ swoosh listing 2000 when he wasn't even in his prime/ considered a superstar back then.

2004/2008--Played poorly BUT it was against the two best defenses ever.

In fact, NO superstar EVER has played better defenses than what Bryant has seen in the playoffs. http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/29/who-played-the-hardest-defenses-adjusting-playoff-stats-by-competition-part-i/

[Samurai Swoosh]

you're saying once lebron does all of that he will be better than kobe right?
No, I was saying that is what LeBron needs to do for himself.

Skill wise he's never going to be Kobe.

But if he just does LeBron, polishes up some stuff for his own game, produce like he was in 2009 and 2010.

He absolutely can be better than Kobe if he racks up some rings. Even more important would be to maybe get a few more MVP trophies too.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe hasn't been that good in the Finals either, and I wouldn't say he's been that much better in the other rounds of the playoffs either. I could easily see lebron still ending up as thw better player.

Correct on the first part, but as far as the other rounds? Kobe's 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010 playoff runs were great and considerably better than any of Lebron's with the exception of 2009.

Also, I don't see Lebron having the type of longevity Kobe did. I've said for a while that I think 2009 will remain Lebron's peak. Lebron's peak was arguably as good or better than Kobe's, but I don't think his prime will be better ultimately, nor do I think he'll be able to match Kobe's accomplishments.

[Da Heroic One]

No, I was saying that is what LeBron needs to do for himself.

Skill wise he's never going to be Kobe.

But if he just does LeBron, polishes up some stuff for his own game, produce like he was in 2009 and 2010.

He absolutely can be better than Kobe if he racks up some rings. Even more important would be to maybe get a few more MVP trophies too.
yeah he is probably not gonna do that either. :oldlol:

[thejumpa]

Correct on the first part, but as far as the other rounds? Kobe's 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010 playoff runs were great and considerably better than any of Lebron's with the exception of 2009.

Also, I don't see Lebron having the type of longevity Kobe did. I've said for a while that I think 2009 will remain Lebron's peak. Lebron's peak was arguably as good or better than Kobe's, but I don't think his prime will be better ultimately, nor do I think he'll be able to match Kobe's accomplishments.

When you say "peak", what are you referring to? Stats? Overall athleticism?

I say this because the general consensus is that he is a player with a few flaws. Shaky post game, shaky mid range game, relied too much on his athleticism, etc. If he comes back a more polished player than he ever has and still is an elite athlete and player, then how can 2009 be the last of his prime/peak? I don't understand the logic.

[ShaqAttack3234]

When you say "peak", what are you referring to? Stats? Overall athleticism?

I say this because the general consensus is that he is a player with a few flaws. Shaky post game, shaky mid range game, relied too much on his athleticism, etc. If he comes back a more polished player than he ever has and still is an elite athlete and player, then how can 2009 be the last of his prime/peak? I don't understand the logic.

I meant peak season, he's still in his prime, but I don't see him playing the game better for a season(including the playoffs than he did in 2009). He's a bit more skilled now, but noticeably less explosive.

Not sure how long his prime will last, I've always been skeptical over how his game will age, and last season made me more so.

[I.R.Beast]

Yeah if he would have sealed the deal, that would have been one of the greatest postseason runs I have ever seen. This dude was killing people.

The good thing is that we know he has it in him to finish games. Hopefully he will come back next year with some new moves and be more assertive.
are you serious?....the chicago series was one of poor offensive execution in which both offenses was borderline anemic...James wasn't spectacular in that series...he made a few big shots, but he wasnt overly impressive in any series this post season. The big shots he made doesnt just erase the rest the game he had. This would've have just an okay playoff run had miami he won...james perrcentages and averages were down straight across the board and the heat were beating teams due to freethrow advantages(i.e making history against the bulls). Miami was outshot , from 2, and 3, and out rebounded by chicago and still won the series due to a 2-1 freethrow advantage, i dont find that to be impressive.

[Indian guy]

Kobe's 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010 playoff runs were great and considerably better than any of Lebron's with the exception of 2009.


:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.

[Doranku]

:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.

Probably because he didn't quit in the second round and he didn't have any 40 win teams to inflate his stats like LeBron did.

lol @ Kobe faring "much worse". Kobe was averaging ~30 points on 44-45% through 6 games, and then his game 7 tanked his stats. Despite playing horrible in the first half, he still picked it up in the second half and put up 10 points/4 boards in the 4th quarter.

LeBron, meanwhile, was terrible in games 4-6 of the series after the Cavs had a 2-1 lead w/ homecourt advantage. Game 6 is a prime example of empty stats. Dude was skying over teammates for rebounds, then playing passively (what a shock) on the offensive end and finishing 8-21 from the field.

And we all know what happened in game 5...

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.

What a moron.:oldlol:

First of all, Lebron completely choking or quitting(was convinced he quit at first, but after this year's finals, I'm not so sure) in 3 consecutive games severely hurts his playoff run. More importantly, it's much more difficult to maintain that through a run to the finals than 2 series. And it was 2 rounds later, plus Kobe's series vs Boston was clearly superior to Lebron's, I don't give a **** what the stats are. When you have 3 consecutive games like Lebron did to end that series, it makes the stats pretty irrelevant.

[chazzy]

:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.
Serious? You're comparing a "run" of 2 series, including one where he checked out early, to multiple great runs to the finals? He played 8th seeded Bulls and then played half a series against Boston. Whether you like it or not, those overall numbers aren't gonna fool anyone into thinking that was some all time great playoff run :oldlol:

[knightfall88]

Lebron playing bad in the finals is an understatement.

A franchise player plays bad sometimes but even when they do, no-one watching would say "hey I wish that guy never turned up to the game today". With lebron in the finals, I bet all his fans wished he never turned up

[The-Legend-24]

Good point. Kobe lost in two Finals. Didn't play particularly well in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2010.

Needs to polish up some skills, lose some weight so he can still take people off the dribble, keep his defensive intensity up (played bad defense in the Finals) and you're absolutely right.
In 00 Kobe was in what? 4th year in the league and 2nd as a starter, and and in 2010 he was averaging 34 ppg 46% before game 7.

[Indian guy]

Probably because he didn't quit in the second round

Myth.

He played one weird half, nothing more.


and he didn't have any 40 win teams to inflate his stats like LeBron did.

Believe me, you'd rather have LeBron face Chicago than ******* like Utah and Phoenix who couldn't guard a chair. LeBron's numbers would be better against those teams.


lol @ Kobe faring "much worse". Kobe was averaging 33 points on 45% through 5 games

The ****? :oldlol:. He averaged 30 ppg on 42% shooting through the first 5 games.


and then his game 7 tanked his stats.

Uhh, no. He was inefficient the entire series, and never more so than with the game on the line. Gong 11-40(28%) in the 4th qtrs of the series.


LeBron, meanwhile, was terrible in games 4-6 of the series after the Cavs had a 2-1 lead w/ homecourt advantage.

He had 2 bad games the entire series in Game 4 & 5. Still finished the series with much better numbers across the board than Kobe. If he wasn't stuck with a sh!t cast, he would have beaten Boston - like he did this year, despite being far from the player he was last year.


Game 6 is a prime example of empty stats.

Just because Cleveland lost? Empty stats are ones that don't really impact the game. LeBron's 27/19/10 was the ONLY reason Game 6 was even competitive.

[The-Legend-24]

:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z270/IK2121/TI.gif

[Jacks3]

The 2010 Bulls had a 105.0 DRTG (11th). 2010 Jazz were better defensively.

:facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: at IndianGuy arguing that Lebron's game 6 vs Boston was good. At no point did he seem to take control of that game. And if you're going to post the stats, why not include the 9 turnovers, or the 8/21 shooting(38%) or 51 TS%.

Those stats at least start to explain how a 27/19/10 game could be so empty, but it goes beyond that if you watch the game.

He played very well in games 1 and 3, iirc, was mediocre in game 2 and sucked the last 3 games. So 2 good games in a series that lasted 6 games? Kobe was easily better vs Boston.

[DMAVS41]

Thats just not true. As he come up short during some runs yeah but most players have. But you know without a doubt that he gave 110% at all times. There is no way you can get 5 rings as a main guy without being great when your team needs you the most. Can you say the same about Lebron? Hell no. When it gets tough for him he just quits and heading into his 9th year and still playing like this is not Kobe-like,Jordan-Like, or Greatest basketball player-like.

I am not questioning Kobe's effort. Not at all.

I'm simply stating the fact that Kobe has had his fair share of playoff letdowns. Which is true by the way.

Plenty of them. 03, 04, 06, 08, and 11.....

And Kobe didn't get 5 rings as the main guy. He got 2. No need to revise history.

[Indian guy]

First of all, Lebron completely choking or quitting(was convinced he quit at first, but after this year's finals, I'm not so sure) in 3 consecutive games severely hurts his playoff run.

This is a MYTH. Watch the games, not Dan Gilbert's mouth. The only weird thing about LeBron's series against Boston is the first half of Game 5, nothing more. Watch those games, and prove me otherwise.

It's funny how the "quit" accusation was always over Game 5, but after Gilbert's rant, it suddenly became 3 straight games. People's inability to think for themselves never ceases to amazes me.


More importantly, it's much more difficult to maintain that through a run to the finals than 2 series.

Based on what? Just the past season LeBron's best series came in the ECF(against the #1 ranked D), and '10 LeBron >> '09 LeBron anyway. No reason why he wouldn't have maintained/improved his play. Especially considering that after Boston, the opponents were only going to get weaker defensively.


plus Kobe's series vs Boston was clearly superior to Lebron's

There isn't a single metric out there that supports this. Not raw numbers, not PER, not EFF or heck, even tbe holy clutch numbers. Kobe was just brutal late in games in the Finals.


I don't give a **** what the stats are.

Yeah, why bother with something called facts :rolleyes:


When you have 3 consecutive games like Lebron did to end that series, it makes the stats pretty irrelevant.

A great player is allowed to have off nights. A couple of games don't negate your entire body of work, and LeBron's in 2010 was pretty darn impressive. In fact, statistically superior to any playoff run in Kobe's life. Your original comment about 01/08/09/10 being "considerably" better than any of LeBron's playoff runs doesn't make sense from any angle.

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol: at IndianGuy arguing that Lebron's game 6 vs Boston was good. At no point did he seem to take control of that game. And if you're going to post the stats, why not include the 9 turnovers, or the 8/21 shooting(38%) or 51 TS%.

Those stats at least start to explain how a 27/19/10 game could be so empty, but it goes beyond that if you watch the game.

He played very well in games 1 and 3, iirc, was mediocre in game 2 and sucked the last 3 games. So 2 good games in a series that lasted 6 games? Kobe was easily better vs Boston.

I agree about Lebron's series not being as good as the stats....although you conveniently ignore Lebron shutting down Pierce for most of the series.

But you can't be serious about the bold. Easily better? Kobe has very bad in that series and even worse in the 4th qtrs. If not for Fisher saving his ass in game 3 or artest/gasol/fisher saving his ass in game 7 they lose that series.

Was Kobe better? Not sure. Debatable. Easily better? No freaking way. Especially because Kobe has horrendous in the 4th qtr and crunch time throughout the series.


Edit: And lets not ignore that Perkins missed the last two games against the Lakers. He mattered. You say stats don't matter, well, Perkins being out made the Celtics a worse team. Noticeably worse I might add.

[Indian guy]

:oldlol: at IndianGuy arguing that Lebron's game 6 vs Boston was good.

It was a solid game. Laughing won't change that. Try harder.


At no point did he seem to take control of that game.

Wait, so any game where you don't "take control" is automatically a bad game? Awesome logic :rolleyes:


Those stats at least start to explain how a 27/19/10 game could be so empty

An empty stat line is one that doesn't really impact the game. LeBron's play that night on the other hand was the only thing keeping Cleveland competitive.


He played very well in games 1 and 3, iirc, was mediocre in game 2 and sucked the last 3 games. So 2 good games in a series that lasted 6 games?

He had 2 good/great games(Game 1 & 3), 2 average/solid ones(Game 2 & 6) and 2 bad ones(Game 4 & 5). Defensively, he shut down Boston's best scorer all series.


Kobe was easily better vs Boston.

Even though he was statistically inferior in every way imaginable and didn't do jack in the 4th qtrs to boot. Sorry, you fail.

[Indian guy]

Serious? You're comparing a "run" of 2 series, including one where he checked out early, to multiple great runs to the finals?

Great runs are made by teams, not individual players. Are you telling me LeBron in Kobe's position wouldn't replicate the success LA had?

At the end of the day, the only way we can compare their playoff runs is through their individual play.


those overall numbers aren't gonna fool anyone into thinking that was some all time great playoff run :oldlol:

Never said it was, just like Kobe's wasn't. What is true though is LeBron was SPECTACULAR for the most part in the 2010 playoffs. If Kobe has been "considerably" better many times, then I'd at least like to see 1 playoff run by him with superior production.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is a MYTH. Watch the games, not Dan Gilbert's mouth. The only weird thing about LeBron's series against Boston is the first half of Game 5, nothing more. Watch those games, and prove me otherwise.

I did watch the games, I'm not convinced you did though. Sorry, but when a player like Lebron who had just dominated for 2 seasons like few in history have has 3 consecutive games like that, it makes me wonder at least.



It's funny how the "quit" accusation was always over Game 5, but after Gilbert's rant, it suddenly became 3 straight games. People's inability to think for themselves never ceases to amazes me.

I've been consistent since the end of game 6. Others were saying it then as well. I never emphasized game 5. That was the worst, but I was critical of him for the 3 consecutive games, and this is coming from someone who always defends his 2009 series vs Orlando.


Based on what? Just the past season LeBron's best series came in the ECF(against the #1 ranked D), and '10 LeBron >> '09 LeBron anyway. No reason why he wouldn't have maintained/improved his play. Especially considering that after Boston, the opponents were only going to get weaker defensively.

It's more difficult to maintain great numbers over a long sample size, it doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can't compare numbers from 2 series to 4. If you want to do that, then compare Kobe's 2010 series vs Utah and Phoenix to Lebron's 2010 run, or 2001 vs Sacramento and San Antonio, 2008(first 2, even 3 rounds he put up incredible numbers), 2009 vs Utah and Denver. Take those back to back series by Kobe rather than the 4 series playoff runs and his numbers look a lot better.


There isn't a single metric out there that supports this. Not raw numbers, not PER, not EFF or heck, even tbe holy clutch numbers. Kobe was just brutal late in games in the Finals.


So basketball has to be measured in numbers? And I've never cared about PER anyway. Not everyone has to think like a nerd when it comes to sports.


Yeah, why bother with something called facts :rolleyes:

Yeah, why bother watching the games when you can just check the boxscore. :rolleyes:

And again, you left out key numbers such as turnovers and shooting percentage.


A great player is allowed to have off nights. A couple of games don't negate your entire body of work, and LeBron's in 2010 was pretty darn impressive. In fact, statistically superior to any playoff run in Kobe's life. Your original comment about 01/08/09/10 being "considerably" better than any of LeBron's playoff runs doesn't make sense from any angle.

No, superstars will receive criticism for having 3 consecutive games like that in the playoffs, it's how it is and how it will always be. And yes, those runs by Kobe are obviously better than Lebron's 2010 "run" which consisted of 1 great series and 2 impressive games in a 6 game series that he lost.

I'm done with you, this is pathetic, anyone who thinks what Lebron did in the 2010 playoffs is comparable to Kobe in the '01, '08, '09 or '10 playoffs clearly has an agenda.

[DMAVS41]

This is why people rail on Kobe.

Easily better? The more I think about that comment the funnier it becomes.

Just for fun I looked up what Lebron did to Pierce defensively. Again, conveniently ignored in this thread.

Pierce has his worst game of the playoffs against Lebron. Pierce had 4 of his worst 5 games in the playoffs against Lebron.

Pierce had one game score over 8.4 in that series. That is horrible. He played so bad people were asking if he was hurt. LOL

[DMAVS41]

I did watch the games, I'm not convinced you did though. Sorry, but when a player like Lebron who had just dominated for 2 seasons like few in history have has 3 consecutive games like that, it makes me wonder at least.




I've been consistent since the end of game 6. Others were saying it then as well. I never emphasized game 5. That was the worst, but I was critical of him for the 3 consecutive games, and this is coming from someone who always defends his 2009 series vs Orlando.



It's more difficult to maintain great numbers over a long sample size, it doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can't compare numbers from 2 series to 4. If you want to do that, then compare Kobe's 2010 series vs Utah and Phoenix to Lebron's 2010 run, or 2001 vs Sacramento and San Antonio, 2008(first 2, even 3 rounds he put up incredible numbers), 2009 vs Utah and Denver. Take those back to back series by Kobe rather than the 4 series playoff runs and his numbers look a lot better.



So basketball has to be measured in numbers? And I've never cared about PER anyway. Not everyone has to think like a nerd when it comes to sports.



Yeah, why bother watching the games when you can just check the boxscore. :rolleyes:

And again, you left out key numbers such as turnovers and shooting percentage.



No, superstars will receive criticism for having 3 consecutive games like that in the playoffs, it's how it is and how it will always be. And yes, those runs by Kobe are obviously better than Lebron's 2010 "run" which consisted of 1 great series and 2 impressive games in a 6 game series that he lost.

I'm done with you, this is pathetic, anyone who thinks what Lebron did in the 2010 playoffs is comparable to Kobe in the '01, '08, '09 or '10 playoffs clearly has an agenda.

2 series doesn't even make a playoff run. So no, there is no way to rank Lebron's playoff run in 10 over many of Kobe's.

However, are you ready to admit that Kobe's series against Boston was not "easily better"?

If not, why was Kobe easily better?

And you can't just ignore every objective measure because you feel like it. Why should your opinion count more? I watched the games. I think Lebron was better. He made a bigger impact on defense, created more for his sorry ass teammates, was better on the boards, and was more efficient from the field.....doing that against a Boston team with Perk in each game with far less help than Kobe.

[chazzy]

Great runs are made by teams, not individual players. Are you telling me LeBron in Kobe's position wouldn't replicate the success LA had?

At the end of the day, the only way we can compare their playoff runs is through their individual play.
Where do you draw the line factoring in sample size though? Wade technically had an all time great playoff "run" in 2010 but he only played 5 games


Never said it was, just like Kobe's wasn't.
His 01, 08, and 09 runs weren't great?


What is true though is LeBron was SPECTACULAR for the most part in the 2010 playoffs. If Kobe has been "considerably" better many times, then I'd at least like to see 1 playoff run by him with superior production.
He was SPECTACULAR for only a series and a half. That HAS to be considered when you compare it to other deeper playoff runs. Otherwise you start venturing into awkward territory, comparing it to a lot of other great runs in the games' history that are technically inferior statistically. He had a better PER than nearly all of Hakeem and Bird's runs in 2010 :confusedshrug:

[ShaqAttack3234]

2 series doesn't even make a playoff run. So no, there is no way to rank Lebron's playoff run in 10 over many of Kobe's.

However, are you ready to admit that Kobe's series against Boston was not "easily better"?

If not, why was Kobe easily better?

Kobe had 5 good games and won the series, Lebron had 2 and lost the series. And having 3 bad games in a row is inexcusable and when your star does that, it's really hard to win.

[G-Funk]

Kobe had 5 good games and won the series, Lebron had 2 and lost the series. And having 3 bad games in a row is inexcusable and when your star does that, it's really hard to win.

put the numbers for each game!!!

[DMAVS41]

Kobe had 5 good games and won the series, Lebron had 2 and lost the series. And having 3 bad games in a row is inexcusable and when your star does that, it's really hard to win.

I'm confused as to where you get 5 good games.

Kobe was not good in game 2, game 3, or game 7. And was he even good in game 4? Where his team got killed in the 4th?

5 good games? I don't see it.

And winning the series is a pretty weak argument considering the huge gap on help Lebron and Kobe had.

So basically you think Kobe was better because he had better teammates and a better coach. Right?

[A.R.T]

put the numbers for each game!!!

Game 1: 30/7/6/1/1 on 10-22 from the field
Game 4: 33/6/2/2/0 on 10-22 from the field
Game 5: 38/5/4/1/1 on 13-27 from the field (desperate 3's at the end killed his percentage, shot 53-54% for the game until then)
Game 6: 26/11/3/4/0 on 9-19 from the field

[Indian guy]

I did watch the games, I'm not convinced you did though.

You'd be wrong. I have watched, rewatched and triple-watched those games over the past year, and see NOTHING off about LeBron's effort/attitude/approach barring the first half of Game 5. You're free to re-watch those games and prove me otherwise.


Sorry, but when a player like Lebron who had just dominated for 2 seasons like few in history have has 3 consecutive games like that, it makes me wonder at least.

I don't see the big deal. The KG/Thibodeau-led Boston Celtics are arguably the greatest defensive team in NBA history. They own star perimeter players like no one else. Kobe in '08 and '10 against them has fared even worse than LeBron.


and this is coming from someone who always defends his 2009 series vs Orlando.

Dude, you're a little too much in love with 2009-LeBron.


It's more difficult to maintain great numbers over a long sample size

Agreed, but what in LeBron's history indicates he wouldn't be able to maintain his level of play? Especially considering what happened the previous season and more importantly, with Boston ousted, any team he'd run into would be weaker defensively. There's no doubt in my mind LeBron's production would've gotten better had Cleveland defeated Boston last season.


it doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can't compare numbers from 2 series to 4.

All I can do is INDIVIDUALLY compare how 2 players fared. Winning series' is a team accomplishment. I can't fault LeBron for not making it past the 2nd round just because he was stuck with a 20-win supporting cast, while Kobe's LAKERS on the other hand were a Top 5 team talent-wise.


If you want to do that, then compare Kobe's 2010 series vs Utah and Phoenix to Lebron's 2010 run

Nice try. Kobe's first 2 series in 2010 were against OKC and Utah, so let's compare those with LeBron's run.


or 2001 vs Sacramento and San Antonio

Why are you taking Kobe's best series' from each run? You can only take the first 2 series'.


So basketball has to be measured in numbers?

Not just numbers, no, but it's still the most objective metric of judging players out there. I will always take the combination of numbers + actual on-court play over just someone's "word".


it's how it is and how it will always be. And yes, those runs by Kobe are obviously better than Lebron's 2010 "run"

Yeah, even though he wasn't more productive in any of those runs. Sorry, winning series' while playing on FAR superior teams doesn't make you better.


which consisted of 1 great series and 2 impressive games in a 6 game series that he lost.

Those "2 impressive games" still yielded much better production than Kobe's against the exact same team. Gee, Kobe sure was much better against Boston :rolleyes:


anyone who thinks what Lebron did in the 2010 playoffs is comparable to Kobe in the '01, '08, '09 or '10 playoffs clearly has an agenda.

Kobe doesn't have a single playoff run in his life statistically superior to LeBron in 2010, yet I'm the one with the agenda for having an issue with your ignorance :rolleyes:

My issue isn't even with someone saying Kobe has some runs in his career better than LeBron's in 2010(he does). My issue is with the "considerably better" BS that you're spewing out with nothing to back-up your ignorance with.

[Doranku]

I'm confused as to where you get 5 good games.

Kobe was not good in game 2, game 3, or game 7. And was he even good in game 4? Where his team got killed in the 4th?

5 good games? I don't see it.

And winning the series is a pretty weak argument considering the huge gap on help Lebron and Kobe had.

So basically you think Kobe was better because he had better teammates and a better coach. Right?

He had 4 good games. Check above a couple posts, someone posted the stats.

You honestly think LeBron was better given his performances in the last 3 games of the series?

C'mon, son.

[chazzy]

And was he even good in game 4? Where his team got killed in the 4th?
He had a bunch of TOs but he scored 12pts on 2/5 shooting in the 4th. That was the game Big Baby threw a party inside, I think he had double digits in the 4th and Boston scored in the 30+

[ShaqAttack3234]

Like so many other threads, this is infested with idiotic trolls.

[DMAVS41]

He had 4 good games. Check above a couple posts, someone posted the stats.

You honestly think LeBron was better given his performances in the last 3 games of the series?

C'mon, son.

I'm confused as to why people think Kobe's game 7 is any better than Lebron's game 6. The only difference is that Kobe had a lot more help. That is all.

This is a really interesting topic because it proves that a team winning changes what happened.

Last 3 games? You act like Lebron was horrible in game 4. He certainly wasn't great....and he did turn it over a lot, but you have to factor in his circumstances a little. Look at his sorry ass team. Its a joke compared to Kobe's.

Oh, and game 4:

22/9/8 7 of 18 shooting and held paul pierce to 3 of 8 from the field for 9 points (5 turnovers)

And I'm supposed to think that Kobe's game 4 was somehow better than that? Total bullshit. Sorry.

[Indian guy]

Where do you draw the line factoring in sample size though?

2 series is significant enough I'd say. Especially if the amount of games you have played have hit double digits.


His 01, 08, and 09 runs weren't great?

You said all-time great, not just great. Yes, they were great runs, but certainly not all-time great runs.


He was SPECTACULAR for only a series and a half. That HAS to be considered when you compare it to other deeper playoff runs. Otherwise you start venturing into awkward territory, comparing it to a lot of other great runs in the games' history that are technically inferior statistically. He had a better PER than nearly all of Hakeem and Bird's runs in 2010 :confusedshrug:

So, do we basically deem any comparison where one player ended up playing more series' as the superior run? That isn't really being fair to the guy with the inferior team.

[DMAVS41]

He had a bunch of TOs but he scored 12pts on 2/5 shooting in the 4th. That was the game Big Baby threw a party inside, I think he had double digits in the 4th and Boston scored in the 30+

Yea. He had 2 assists and 7 turnovers and his team crumbled in the 4th. Sorry. Thats not a good game based on the standards people are using in this thread for Lebron. Not at all.

[DMAVS41]

Like so many other threads, this is infested with idiotic trolls.

Funny. Considering you made the biggest joke comment that I've seen in the thread about Kobe's boston series being easily better.

[Doranku]

I'm confused as to why people think Kobe's game 7 is any better than Lebron's game 6. The only difference is that Kobe had a lot more help. That is all.

This is a really interesting topic because it proves that a team winning changes what happened.

Last 3 games? You act like Lebron was horrible in game 4. He certainly wasn't great....and he did turn it over a lot, but you have to factor in his circumstances a little. Look at his sorry ass team. Its a joke compared to Kobe's.

Oh, and game 4:

22/9/8 7 of 18 shooting and held paul pierce to 3 of 8 from the field for 9 points (5 turnovers)

And I'm supposed to think that Kobe's game 4 was somehow better than that? Total bullshit. Sorry.

Kobe scored 11 more points on 4 more shots. Shot 46%/55%/88% compared to 39%/0%/73% (LOL) from LeBron. A couple more rebounds and six more assists somehow makes it total bullshit that Kobe's game was better than LeBron's?

Okaaaaaaaaaaay..

[N0Skillz]

DMAVs is a troll......


ignore the fool it will make your life so much easier.

[Sakkreth]

Kobe scored 11 more points on 4 more shots. Shot 46%/55%/88% compared to 39%/0%/73% (LOL) from LeBron. A couple more rebounds and six more assists somehow makes it total bullshit that Kobe's game was better than LeBron's?

Okaaaaaaaaaaay..

Kobe doesn't get that number overall to often :oldlol:

[Doranku]

Yea. He had 2 assists and 7 turnovers and his team crumbled in the 4th. Sorry. Thats not a good game based on the standards people are using in this thread for Lebron. Not at all.

So Kobe's team crumbled in the 4th being outscored by 9, but LeBron's team didn't crumble in the 4th being outscored by 8? Right...

Not to mention that Cavs only scored 15 points in the 4th compared to 27 by the Lakers. It was their defense that crumbled, more specifically their interior defense. Like chazzy mentioned, Big Baby went ham on LA's soft bigs inside. You gonna blame Kobe for that? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe scored 11 more points on 4 more shots. Shot 46%/55%/88% compared to 39%/0%/73% (LOL) from LeBron. A couple more rebounds and six more assists somehow makes it total bullshit that Kobe's game was better than LeBron's?

Okaaaaaaaaaaay..

Does Lebron get any credit for shutting down Pierce? Holding Pierce to 3 of 8 shooting and forcing 5 turnovers?

Does that not matter at all.

It must be nice to pretend that these guys play in a vacuum and pretend like Lebron doesn't have a much tougher hill to climb each game based on his teammates.

And I never said Lebron's game was better. I said its silly to claim Lebron played poorly his last three games and then turn around and say Kobe played well in game 4.

Thats a joke. Sorry.

[DMAVS41]

So Kobe's team crumbled in the 4th being outscored by 9, but LeBron's team didn't crumble in the 4th being outscored by 8? Right...

Not to mention that Cavs only scored 15 points in the 4th compared to 27 by the Lakers. It was their defense that crumbled, more specifically their interior defense. Like chazzy mentioned, Big Baby went ham on LA's soft bigs inside. You gonna blame Kobe for that? :oldlol:

So you want to talk about teammates? Really.

Again, I never said Lebron played a better game 4. I said its a double standard to claim Lebron played poorly and Kobe played well.

And LOL at acting like 6 more assists doesn't matter at all.

But you really want to talk about teammates? Who has guarding Rondo? Did he not go HAM when he went for 29/18/13 against the Cavs??? You really gonna blame Lebron for that? LOL LOL LOL

But somehow Davis going for 18 and 5 is a bigger deal....right?

Kobe stans.....:facepalm

[Jacks3]

lebron's per is inflated by the lower pace and comp. per measures against the average player, and kobe in 2010 saw d-will/nash/stoudemire/westbrook/durant/ while lebron saw...pierce?

[chazzy]

So, do we basically deem any comparison where one player ended up playing more series' as the superior run? That isn't really being fair to the guy with the inferior team.
Do you think Lebron's 2010 run was better than nearly all of Hakeem's and Bird's?

[Doranku]

How is it a double standard? Kobe shot well from the field, from 3, and from the line and scored 33 points on 22 shots while collecting 6 rebounds. LeBron shot like shit from everywhere. Given LeBron's tendency to sky over teammates for rebounds (see Game 6 of the very same series) and his uncanny 20 second dribble followed by a kick out to a player forcing them to shoot, forgive me if I'm not convinced that the 9 rebounds/8 assists makes LeBron's game "good".

How come you don't talk about the defense that Kobe played on Rondo? Rondo was nowhere NEAR the player that he was against Cleveland when he played LA. Sure, LeBron played great D on Pierce. I'll give him that. But Kobe also played good to great D on Rondo given the night. "Does that not count for anything?"

[DMAVS41]

How is it a double standard? Kobe shot well from the field, from 3, and from the line and scored 33 points on 22 shots while collecting 6 rebounds. LeBron shot like shit from everywhere. Given LeBron's tendency to sky over teammates for rebounds (see Game 6 of the very same series) and his uncanny 20 second dribble followed by a kick out to a player forcing them to shoot, forgive me if I'm not convinced that the 9 rebounds/8 assists makes LeBron's game "good".

How come you don't talk about the defense that Kobe played on Rondo? Rondo was nowhere NEAR the player that he was against Cleveland when he played LA. Sure, LeBron played great D on Pierce. I'll give him that. But Kobe also played good to great D on Rondo given the night. "Does that not count for anything?"

Of course it counts. But Lebron was a better defensive player for sure against the Celtics than Kobe was. Kobe just sagged off rondo and forced him to shoot because he had the luxury of a great front line behind him.

The cavs? not so much.

Oh, and I'd advise you to look at Rondo's orlando series. He was not good at all in that series. Who was shutting him down? Was it Nelson? Reddick? Williams?.....LOL

It was the fact that the Magic had an interior presence that could defend the paint without fouling. That is where the real credit for slowing Rondo down should go.

And, back to the game 4's. So basically you want to discount everything Lebron does. His rebounds don't count, his assists don't count, his defense just isn't that great....etc. Again, thats weak.

That is my problem with people like you. You act like Lebron was stat padding by being the only Cav to work on the boards. The Celtics out rebounded the Cavs by 14 in that game. Lebron had 9 boards. The rest of his sorry team combined for 24 rebounds and let a guard get 18 freaking boards. Yet its Lebron that is stat padding. You want to talk about the difference in a game, Being outrebounded by 14 is always a good place to start. But yea, its stat padding. He stole those rebounds.

[Doranku]

Of course it counts. But Lebron was a better defensive player for sure against the Celtics than Kobe was. Kobe just sagged off rondo and forced him to shoot because he had the luxury of a great front line behind him.

The cavs? not so much.

Oh, and I'd advise you to look at Rondo's orlando series. He was not good at all in that series. Who was shutting him down? Was it Nelson? Reddick? Williams?.....LOL

It was the fact that the Magic had an interior presence that could defend the paint without fouling. That is where the real credit for slowing Rondo down should go.

And, back to the game 4's. So basically you want to discount everything Lebron does. His rebounds don't count, his assists don't count, his defense just isn't that great....etc. Again, thats weak.

That is my problem with people like you. You act like Lebron was stat padding by being the only Cav to work on the boards. The Celtics out rebounded the Cavs by 14 in that game. Lebron had 9 boards. The rest of his sorry team combined for 24 rebounds and let a guard get 18 freaking boards. Yet its Lebron that is stat padding. You want to talk about the difference in a game, Being outrebounded by 14 is always a good place to start. But yea, its stat padding. He stole those rebounds.

I never said they didn't count. Hell, I just conceded that LeBron played great defense against Pierce. What more do you want? :oldlol:

Not saying his rebounds are stat padding because I don't remember every little detail of the game, but let's not exaggerate their importance. LeBron only had one of those rebounds in the 4th quarter of Game 4, and it was with 20 seconds left when the Cavs were down by 8. Moreover, he went 1-5 from the field and only scored 3 points in the 4th quarter. I think it was chazzy who said Kobe, on the other hand, had 12 points on 2-5 shooting in the 4th quarter of game 4?

I'm not saying Kobe's game 4 was light years better than LeBron's, but I do think Kobe had a slightly better game. I guess that makes me a stan. :confusedshrug:

Funny, though, that you keep stressing these rebounds when you completely neglect Kobe's 15 boards when talking about game 7. All it is to you is, "6-24! 6-24!" For someone who preaches consistency, you aren't very consistent yourself.

[All Net]

Sadly when you play that badly in the finals what you did to get there is all forgotten

[DMAVS41]

I never said they didn't count. Hell, I just conceded that LeBron played great defense against Pierce. What more do you want? :oldlol:

Not saying his rebounds are stat padding because I don't remember every little detail of the game, but let's not exaggerate their importance. LeBron only had one of those rebounds in the 4th quarter of Game 4, and it was with 20 seconds left when the Cavs for down by 8. Moreover, he went 1-5 from the field and only scored 3 points in the 4th quarter. I think it was chazzy who said Kobe, on the other hand, had 12 points on 2-5 shooting in the 4th quarter of game 4?

I'm not saying Kobe's game 4 was light years better than LeBron's, but I do think Kobe had a slightly better game. I guess that makes me a stan. :confusedshrug:

Funny, though, that you keep stressing these rebounds when you completely neglect Kobe's 15 boards when talking about game 7. All it is to you is, "6-24! 6-24!" For someone who preaches consistency, you aren't very consistent yourself.

I'm not preaching anything. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I have no problem with you saying Kobe's game 4 was slightly better. I personally think in terms of overall impact they were pretty even. However, I have no issue with saying one is slightly better than the other.

My issue was with you saying that Lebron played horribly his last three games. And then you turn around and credit Kobe for playing a "good" game 4. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially given the circumstances of each game for the two players and the similar outcome. I don't see how one can be considered "good" and one "poor".....that isn't consistent.

As to the rebounding. I never said Kobe's 15 boards weren't important. I said they don't make a bad game good. And Kobe played a shit game in game 7. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. I've been very clear on that. Its not even about missing shots for me. Its about him taking so many terrible shots and clearly forcing the issue in a do or die game that was on the verge of a blowout. I don't respect that kind of play. Now, if Kobe had taken those shots in the normal flow and they had been good looks? I'd have no problem with it. Again, I've been consistent about that from the beginning and you won't see my trumpeting Lebron's game 6.

However, I'm again confused as to why Lebron is getting hated on for his game 6. Did he play well? Not really. His stats are much better than his play. Did he play poorly? Hell no. He kept his team alive in the 2nd half after Mo, as usual, couldn't get it done when it really matters. Or how Jamison, a career shrinker in big games and moments, came up with a solid 2 of 10 for 5 points while KG roasted him for 22 and 12.

Do I think Lebron played awesome in games 4 and 6. Nope, but he hardly played as bad as you and others are letting on. You act like he just was awful...and thats not the case.

And I'm still confused by the people (not saying you are one of them) that hate on Lebron for game 6 and give Kobe a pass for game 7. How is that fair or consistent.

And furthermore, how is it fair to say Kobe's series was "easily better" when Lebron shot 5% better from the field (scoring only .8 less ppg), got to the ft line more often, rebounded the ball better, created more scoring chances for his teammates, forced more steals, had more blocks, and played better defense. I don't get it. And he lost in 6. To a better team. A team that had Perkins for all 6. And Lebron did that playing with far less help from his teammates and coach than Kobe had.

Saying Kobe was "easily better" is exactly why people laugh at Kobe fans. Its just simply not true by any standard or measure. Only in the hugely biased mind of Kobe stans can a statement like that make sense.

[Jacks3]

kobe averaged 29 PPG/8 RPG/4 APG/2 SPG/1 BPG/53% TS in the 2010 finals against the best D in the league. through the first 6 games he was averaging 30 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/56% TS and had many people saying he should win finals mvp even if the lakers lost. why do people keep acting like he had a poor series? overall, he was solid.

[DMAVS41]

kobe averaged 29 PPG/8 RPG/4 APG/2 SPG/1 BPG/53% TS in the 2010 finals against the best D in the league. through the first 6 games he was averaging 30 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/56% TS and had many people saying he should win finals mvp even if the lakers lost. why do people keep acting like he had a poor series? overall, he was solid.

I think the real question is how that series is considered "easily better" than:

27/9/7/2/1 54% TS (don't quote me on those numbers....got them from a site) while playing better defense and having to carry a heavier burden.....playing a team at full strength with Perk there every game.

How is Kobe's series "easily better"????

[Jacks3]

i don't think kobe's series is easily better, but i have to laugh at calling shatattack a kobe stan. wow.

[greensborohill]

LeBron loves being a ****** in big moments!! HE FVCKING LOVES IT!! Good for you LeBron, you OWN you ******ness!!!

[kaiiu]

I see Gino has gone full troll mode.

nothing wrong with being a heel :applause:

[The_Yearning]

Yeah if he would have sealed the deal, that would have been one of the greatest postseason runs I have ever seen. This dude was killing people.

The good thing is that we know he has it in him to finish games. Hopefully he will come back next year with some new moves and be more assertive.

Lol... LBJ has been in the league for almost 10 years now...almost all fails.

He doesn't have it in him. And when people thought he was clutch against the Wizards? The dude traveled on every drive, including the game winner.

[kaiiu]

Lol... LBJ has been in the league for almost 10 years now...almost all fails.

He doesn't have it in him. And when people thought he was clutch against the Wizards? The dude traveled on every drive, including the game winner.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[rodman91]

http://sportschump.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/lebron-james-cleveland-cavs-championship.jpg

:roll:

[sh0wtime]

yet he still choked on the biggest stage in basketball

Biggest "stage"? Playoffs are the biggest stage, there is no difference between a series except better (or worse) teams. The only difference between "1st round" and "Finals" is just that, that text... you lose 1st round and you are out of playoffs, you lose in the Finals and you are out of the playoffs.
Its actually more embarassing to lose earlier than later in playoffs, playoffs are the "biggest stage" or "where everything matters", the different rounds are only different series/teams.

I wonder also what the excuse would be if Lebron didnt come to Miami, because Wade sure didnt "choke" against Mavs and they still losed (actually they would probably even get swept considering the lack of Lebrons productions or they would probably not even been in the Finals).

My point is, this is a team game, the better team will win, not the better player, sorry, we have seen Lebron prove that over and over in the playoffs (including Jordan, Kobe and many other superstars, many who didnt even got a ring proved that to).

I thought many in ISH were just being sarcastic, joking, to bash Lebron or something, but i figured many here are seriously that illiterate to believe a Championship is NOT a team accomplishment and is actually the result of ONE MAN? That logic still doesnt make sense, because if you looked back at example Jordans playoffs runs i seriously couldnt find a single game he "choked", he produced like nobody and he would still not win a championship until he really got the required cast to do it when he was 27-28 years old. Michael Jordan before 1991 actually i think was a much better player than in any of his championship runs, he was much more productive, explosive, the only difference was that he had much more help.

Its ok if you hate Lebron, i dont care, but please dont come with delusionism / ridicilous statements. Its easier to just say "I HATE LEBRON", very simple, stop making stuff up.

[ATL_Bball_King]

Man yall still havent realized he just got a huge paycheck from the mob for throwing the finals...The man said his biggest goals is to become the first billinaire athlete...

Give the man a break wat else is he suppose to do...Not throw the game and get his legs broken..I mean gosh :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If this is not the case then he is just a lowsy ass finals performer

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

the finals just showed his true colors.

**Cue Cyndi Lauper music**

[kaiiu]

Biggest "stage"? Playoffs are the biggest stage, there is no difference between a series except better (or worse) teams. The only difference between "1st round" and "Finals" is just that, that text... you lose 1st round and you are out of playoffs, you lose in the Finals and you are out of the playoffs.
Its actually more embarassing to lose earlier than later in playoffs, playoffs are the "biggest stage" or "where everything matters", the different rounds are only different series/teams.

I wonder also what the excuse would be if Lebron didnt come to Miami, because Wade sure didnt "choke" against Mavs and they still losed (actually they would probably even get swept considering the lack of Lebrons productions or they would probably not even been in the Finals).

My point is, this is a team game, the better team will win, not the better player, sorry, we have seen Lebron prove that over and over in the playoffs (including Jordan, Kobe and many other superstars, many who didnt even got a ring proved that to).

I thought many in ISH were just being sarcastic, joking, to bash Lebron or something, but i figured many here are seriously that illiterate to believe a Championship is NOT a team accomplishment and is actually the result of ONE MAN? That logic still doesnt make sense, because if you looked back at example Jordans playoffs runs i seriously couldnt find a single game he "choked", he produced like nobody and he would still not win a championship until he really got the required cast to do it when he was 27-28 years old. Michael Jordan before 1991 actually i think was a much better player than in any of his championship runs, he was much more productive, explosive, the only difference was that he had much more help.

Its ok if you hate Lebron, i dont care, but please dont come with delusionism / ridicilous statements. Its easier to just say "I HATE LEBRON", very simple, stop making stuff up.
So Lebron has no help. Gotcha

[Doranku]

I'm not preaching anything. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I have no problem with you saying Kobe's game 4 was slightly better. I personally think in terms of overall impact they were pretty even. However, I have no issue with saying one is slightly better than the other.

My issue was with you saying that Lebron played horribly his last three games. And then you turn around and credit Kobe for playing a "good" game 4. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially given the circumstances of each game for the two players and the similar outcome. I don't see how one can be considered "good" and one "poor".....that isn't consistent.

As to the rebounding. I never said Kobe's 15 boards weren't important. I said they don't make a bad game good. And Kobe played a shit game in game 7. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. I've been very clear on that. Its not even about missing shots for me. Its about him taking so many terrible shots and clearly forcing the issue in a do or die game that was on the verge of a blowout. I don't respect that kind of play. Now, if Kobe had taken those shots in the normal flow and they had been good looks? I'd have no problem with it. Again, I've been consistent about that from the beginning and you won't see my trumpeting Lebron's game 6.

However, I'm again confused as to why Lebron is getting hated on for his game 6. Did he play well? Not really. His stats are much better than his play. Did he play poorly? Hell no. He kept his team alive in the 2nd half after Mo, as usual, couldn't get it done when it really matters. Or how Jamison, a career shrinker in big games and moments, came up with a solid 2 of 10 for 5 points while KG roasted him for 22 and 12.

Do I think Lebron played awesome in games 4 and 6. Nope, but he hardly played as bad as you and others are letting on. You act like he just was awful...and thats not the case.

And I'm still confused by the people (not saying you are one of them) that hate on Lebron for game 6 and give Kobe a pass for game 7. How is that fair or consistent.

And furthermore, how is it fair to say Kobe's series was "easily better" when Lebron shot 5% better from the field (scoring only .8 less ppg), got to the ft line more often, rebounded the ball better, created more scoring chances for his teammates, forced more steals, had more blocks, and played better defense. I don't get it. And he lost in 6. To a better team. A team that had Perkins for all 6. And Lebron did that playing with far less help from his teammates and coach than Kobe had.

Saying Kobe was "easily better" is exactly why people laugh at Kobe fans. Its just simply not true by any standard or measure. Only in the hugely biased mind of Kobe stans can a statement like that make sense.

Okay, maybe saying that he played awful is an exaggeration. He was definitely awful in game 5. I see where you're coming from in games 4 and 6. I don't think he played well in either of those games by any means, but I'll agree with you that saying they are awful is a bit of a push. Especially because of how his teammates (Jamison and Mo specifically) wilted and died in that series.

Kobe's game 7 was definitely not a good game by any stretch of the imagination. After the first half, I was honestly disgusted. Kobe was visibly scared and shook by the situation. The Celtics looked the same way, but it was very disappointing seeing Kobe looking and playing so vulnerable.

Luckily, like you said, his team was good enough that their defense kept them in the game and they were able to rally back from 13 down in the 3rd. Despite playing an overall poor game, I don't think Kobe gets enough credit for his 4th quarter. 10 points with two huge buckets to create a little distance and put LA in the lead for good. Played very aggressively (the opposite of what LeBron did) and adjusted for his poor shooting by getting the line. Pulled down a couple huge rebounds in traffic. Did the little things to get his team the win.

Again, not saying it was a good game at all, but at the end of the day, he came through despite playing like dog shit for 3 quarters. I feel like he deserves a little credit for that, imo. But LA as a team won that game. Huge rebounds by Pau, great game from Ron, big 3 by Fisher in the late stages of the 4th quarter, etc.

[DMAVS41]

Okay, maybe saying that he played awful is an exaggeration. He was definitely awful in game 5. I see where you're coming from in games 4 and 6. I don't think he played well in either of those games by any means, but I'll agree with you that saying they are awful is a bit of a push. Especially because of how his teammates (Jamison and Mo specifically) wilted and died in that series.

Kobe's game 7 was definitely not a good game by any stretch of the imagination. After the first half, I was honestly disgusted. Kobe was visibly scared and shook by the situation. The Celtics looked the same way, but it was very disappointing seeing Kobe looking and playing so vulnerable.

Luckily, like you said, his team was good enough that their defense kept them in the game and they were able to rally back from 13 down in the 3rd. Despite playing an overall poor game, I don't think Kobe gets enough credit for his 4th quarter. 10 points with two huge buckets to create a little distance and put LA in the lead for good. Played very aggressively (the opposite of what LeBron did) and adjusted for his poor shooting by getting the line. Pulled down a couple huge rebounds in traffic. Did the little things to get his team the win.

Again, not saying it was a good game at all, but at the end of the day, he came through despite playing like dog shit for 3 quarters. I feel like he deserves a little credit for that, imo. But LA as a team won that game. Huge rebounds by Pau, great game from Ron, big 3 by Fisher in the late stages of the 4th quarter, etc.

So it sounds like we are more in agreement. Again, I'm not that one taking the absurd stance. That would be the people claiming Kobe's series was "easily better".....nothing supports this.

Oh, and doing all the little things to help a team win should be a positive note for Kobe in game 7. Just remember that he wouldn't have that chance if he didn't get help.

Somehow I just don't see Kobe having the chance to win that game if Artest had put up 5 points and 5 boards on 20% shooting and playing shit defense like Jamison did. Artest played a very good game 7:

20 points 5 boards 5 steals on 39% shooting and played rock solid man to man defense as well as getting his hands on 5 steals.

Don't you think those two circumstances are a little different? Kobe got a ton of help from Artest and Pau.....and Fisher made a huge shot late in the 4th as well.

Conversely, Lebron did a lot of help from Mo in the first half, but got nothing from anyone else the entire game. Absolutely nothing. Jamison/Shaq/Parker/Andy/Z/West all came up as small as possible combined.

[Dbrog]

Since when has Bron ever been called clutch in his career? He's called LeBrick for a reason...

[catch24]

One of the few here that believes Kobe played better against Boston, with ease.

- didn't quit
- was more poised
- was more clutch
- had better intangibles (scoring when the team needed it/played great man to man defense on Rondo)
- displayed better leadership

Someone who wilted under pressure (or quit) 10/10 times will never be in the same conversation with someone who despite shooting worse/putting up slightly worse all-around numbers, gave it his all, was clutch and lead his team to a W.

[DMAVS41]

One of the few here that believes Kobe played better against Boston, with ease.

- didn't quit
- was more poised
- was more clutch
- had better intangibles (scoring when the team needed it/played great man to man defense on Rondo)
- displayed better leadership

Someone who wilted under pressure/quit 10/10 times will never play better than a guy, who despite shooting worse and put up slightly worse all-around numbers, gave it his all, was clutch and lead his team to a W.

Are you talking about the series or game 7? I can understand if you think Kobe's game 7 was better. I disagree, but its not unreasonable. But if you are talking about the series I just don't see it.

Because Kobe was the exact opposite of clutch in that series. He was dreadful in the 4th qtrs and crunch time....he was not the one making the big shots at any point in that series.

Kobe played great man to man defense? Ok, lets say I agree, even though I don't. Lebron played better man to man defense against a superior player. Lebron flat out shut Pierce down to the point where people were asking Pierce if he was hurt he was playing so bad. Pierce had his worst playoff game against Lebron....and 4 of his worst 5 in the playoffs as well.

No doubt Kobe hampered Rondo, but that had a lot to do with the scheme and front line defense. You should go back and check out the Orlando series. Rondo was really bad. He played almost identical against them.....and it had everything to do with the way the Magic played him and Howard in the paint.

All the other stuff is highly debatable. And LOL at using poise for Kobe. He was anything but poised in games 2 and 3. If Fisher doesn't turn in to Michael Jordan at the end of game 3, Kobe's lack of clutch play and poise kills them. And of course, Kobe had no poise whatsoever in game 7....jacking up terrible shot after terrible shot digging his team a 13 point 2nd half deficit.......and then heavily relied on Fisher/Artest/Pau to make the big plays late in that game.


Better? Sure...debatable.

Easily better? No way in hell.

[catch24]

Are you talking about the series or game 7? I can understand if you think Kobe's game 7 was better. I disagree, but its not unreasonable. But if you are talking about the series I just don't see it.

Because Kobe was the exact opposite of clutch in that series. He was dreadful in the 4th qtrs and crunch time....he was not the one making the big shots at any point in that series.

Kobe played great man to man defense? Ok, lets say I agree, even though I don't. Lebron played better man to man defense against a superior player. Lebron flat out shut Pierce down to the point where people were asking Pierce if he was hurt he was playing so bad. Pierce had his worst playoff game against Lebron....and 4 of his worst 5 in the playoffs as well.

No doubt Kobe hampered Rondo, but that had a lot to do with the scheme and front line defense. You should go back and check out the Orlando series. Rondo was really bad. He played almost identical against them.....and it had everything to do with the way the Magic played him and Howard in the paint.

All the other stuff is highly debatable. And LOL at using poise for Kobe. He was anything but poised in games 2 and 3. If Fisher doesn't turn in to Michael Jordan at the end of game 3, Kobe's lack of clutch play and poise kills them. And of course, Kobe had no poise whatsoever in game 7....jacking up terrible shot after terrible shot digging his team a 13 point 2nd half deficit.......and then heavily relied on Fisher/Artest/Pau to make the big plays late in that game.


Better? Sure...debatable.

Easily better? No way in hell.

The series.

You don't see it, I do. When someone quits during the middle of a series, they lose all credibility. Simple and plain, no ifs and or buts about it. When you're comparing that series to someone's who may have embed slightly worse all-around numbers, but still had better in-game means, it's not really all that close. Kobe treated the game with respect, LeBron did not. The guy tried coming back next game and still had a similar mentality, except he finished with a triple double. He also had 9 turnovers, which in turn made it one of the more deceiving/overrated TD's in playoff history (kind of like that TD in Dallas this past Finals--looks great on paper but much like LeBron's career, he came up short when in mattered most).

[DMAVS41]

The series.

You don't see it, I do. When someone quits during the middle of a series, they lose all credibility. Simple and plain, no ifs and or buts about it. When you're comparing that series to someone's who may have embed slightly worse all-around numbers, still had better in-game means. Kobe treated the game with respect, LeBron did not. The guy tried coming back next game and still had a similar mentality, except he finished with a triple double. He also had 9 turnovers, which in turn made it one of the more deceiving/overrated TD's in playoff history (kind of like that TD in Dallas this past Finals--looks great on paper but much like LeBron's career, he came up short when in mattered most).

If you want to claim he quit for the series, then that is your opinion and that is fine. I don't see how anyone can claim he quit in the first 4 games or how he quit in game 6.

I don't think anyone here is being even remotely fair in factoring in the completely different circumstances. The idea of Kobe playing well enough to win that series with Lebron's help is just laughable. Honestly, I'm not sure Kobe could have gotten that series to a game 6 in place of Lebron.

Nobody is saying....OMG Lebron had a triple double in game 6...he played awesome. At least I'm not. But to say he was bad in that game and then turn around and credit Kobe for things might not even exist is just silly.

Again, you have to factor in the circumstances a little. Lebron having less help. Lebron having a worse coach. Lebron playing a healthy Celtics team. That stuff matters.

And like I said, its the "with ease" horseshit that needs to stop. Nothing "easily" or "with ease" about it....especially when pretty much every objective measure favors Lebron.....

And he did it facing much more difficult circumstances and carrying a heavier burden on both ends.

[catch24]

It's not what I'm "claiming", it's what it was...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100512&sportCat=nba -- his biggest Cheerleader wrote a play-by-play of his "quit-job"

He plays the way he did this past Finals (in the 4th quarters) and it becomes more and more obvious the guy just lays down when the pressure is too great. He quit in 2010 and ran away completely this past year.

Just calling it like I see it.

[DMAVS41]

It's not what I'm "claiming", it's what it was...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100512&sportCat=nba -- his biggest Cheerleader wrote a play-by-play of his "quit-job"

He plays the way he did this past Finals (in the 4th quarters) and it becomes more and more obvious the guy just lays down when the pressure is too great. I say he quit in 2010 and ran away completely this past year.

Just calling it like I see it.

And I could say the same thing about Kobe. He lays down. In fact, he's laid down more than Lebron has throughout his career.

But that is not what this is about. Lets say he absolutely quit in game 5. You can't lose a series in 1 game. You can only lose 1 game in 1 game.

And again, he still played as well or better than Kobe for the series quitting or not. How sad is that? He has no help and "quits"....and still manages to outproduce Kobe and play better defense.

But yea, Kobe was "easily" better.......:facepalm

[catch24]

And I could say the same thing about Kobe. He lays down. In fact, he's laid down more than Lebron has throughout his career.

Of course you could, but you can't call LeBron a champion, something Kobe is.

He quit when the series was tied 2-2, at home. That's as bad as it gets.

Again, whether he played better than Kobe a few more games is irrelevant. He quit when it mattered, and laid down the next game. 3 great games vs Kobe's 3-4 good/great games and a Finals MVP. Like I said, not close.

You think someone who "quit" during the middle of a series played just as well as someone who put up slightly-less all-around numbers, but was more clutch, had better intangibles, and came up with a W. That's fine, hilarious, but your opinion nevertheless.

You will never change my opinion, stop trying.

[DMAVS41]

Of course you could, but you can't call LeBron a champion, something Kobe is.

He quit when the series was tied 2-2, at home. That's as bad as it gets.

Again, whether he played better than Kobe a few more games is irrelevant. He quit when it mattered, and laid down the next game. 3 great games vs Kobe's 3-4 good/great games and a Finals MVP. Like I said, not close.

You think someone who "quit" during the middle of a series played just as well as someone who put up slightly-less all-around numbers, but was more clutch, had better intangibles, and came up with a W. That's fine, hilarious, but your opinion nevertheless.

You will never change my opinion, stop trying.


You will never change my opinion, stop trying.

Hilarious? The only thing hilarious is saying its "not close"

So do you think Dirk's finals in 11 were "easily" better than Kobe's finals in 08?

And stop saying Kobe was clutch. He wasn't. He was actually the exact opposite. Intangibles? When? When he nearly killed his team in game 3 playing like an idiot? Or when he nearly killed his team in game 7 playing like an idiot? When he crumbled in crunch time in game 2?

Lebron played better defense. Do you dispute this?

With ease? GTFO.....

[Micku]

LBJ can bounce back and play great, but his legacy took a hit though.

[BarberSchool]

never said he didn't. i know he did, but how can someone who did that ^^ just turn into a nothingman on the court.Excellent Zone defense, coupled with cowardice and deference under pressure.