Replace Michael Jordan with Kobe Bryant on the 90s Bulls

[Da Heroic One]

How many titles do the 90s Bulls win?

Assume Kobe doesn't retire like MJ did in 94-95 either. Same roster though.

[andgar923]

1 million

[FourthTenor]

Depends, are you replacing Pippen with Shaq?

[catch24]

Maybe 1, and that being somewhere during the second 3-peat. My gut says Zero though.

[DMAVS41]

2 or 3 titles in those 8 years.

[Soundwave]

I think they'd lose to the Knicks in '93 (down 0-2 ... Kobe would fold and Scottie would go right along with him) and Jazz in '98 (Utah's year really, MJ had to summon every ounce of will power to win that year I think).

[OldSchoolBBall]

2-4 titles assuming Kobe only plays '91-'93 and '96-'98 just like MJ did (yes, I know the OP stated otherwise, but that's silly and just muddies the waters). I think that's the realistic range. I'd break it down like this:

There's an 80+% chance he wins 1 or more title
There's a 50-60% chance he wins 2 or more titles
There's a 35-40% chance he wins 3 or more titles
There's a 20-25% chance he wins 4 or more titles
There's a 5-10% chance he wins 5 or more titles
There's a 0-5% chance he wins 6 or more titles

Approximately...

I think they win in '91 and '97 almost certainly. The others are all toss-ups based on the Finalists or, in some cases, the EC competition the Bulls faced.

[Odinn]

Kobe can't win 1992, 1993, 1995, 1998.
Kobe can win 1994, 1996, 1997.
Kobe definetly would win 1991.

1-4 titles I guess.

[DMAVS41]

2-4 titles assuming Kobe only plays '91-'93 and '96-'98 just like MJ did (yes, I know the OP stated otherwise, but that's silly and just muddies the waters). I think that's the realistic range. I'd break it down like this:

There's an 80+% chance he wins 1 or more title
There's a 50-60% chance he wins 2 or more titles
There's a 35-40% chance he wins 3 or more titles
There's a 20-25% chance he wins 4 or more titles
There's a 5-10% chance he wins 5 or more titles
There's a 0-5% chance he wins 6 or more titles

Approximately...

I think they win in '91 and '97 almost certainly. The others are all toss-ups based on the Finalists or, in some cases, the EC competition the Bulls faced.

Good post. I think 91 and 97 are locks in a hypothetical like this. After that it gets really hard.

[andgar923]

Maybe 1, and that being somewhere during the second 3-peat. My gut says Zero though.

My gut feeling says zero as well.

MJ had to be legendary for them to win during their reign. He didn't just play good enough, he had to carry them far more than what Kobe's had too carry his team. Hell... all we have to do is look at deciding or important games to know that he would've lost them some series.

Kobe's teams have helped out Kobe tremendously, far more than MJ's teams have helped out MJ. And the stats prove this.

https://img.skitch.com/20110709-kn2j9u3htwk8nmkjtfj1udcyq7.jpg


https://img.skitch.com/20110709-c3berd29fa1wy35um9b1u5rkig.jpg

http://www.backpicks.com/2010/12/20/clutch-or-choker-kobe-bryant-vs-karl-malone-in-elimination-games/

[Jacks3]

They would have won it all in 91, 96, 97, and 98.

Post-prime Kobe did this in the PS on his Finals runs:

08: 30/6/6/2/58% TS
09: 30/6/5/2/56% TS
10: 29/6/6/2/57% TS

Dude would have dominated the weak 90's.

[andgar923]

They would have won it all in 91, 96, 97, and 98.

Post-prime Kobe did this in the PS on his Finals runs:

08: 30/6/6/2/58% TS
09: 30/6/5/2/56% TS
10: 29/6/6/2/57% TS

Dude would have dominated the weak 90's.

No he wouldn't.

His shits would've dropped all across the board. He's not smart enough, not physically tough enough, nor mentally strong enough.

Besides.... with what center?

You think Kobe can win in an era filled with superior big men if he played with Carthwright or Longley?

He can barely win in today's weak big men era with an all star center, how is he gonna do that with Will Purdue?

[Micku]

Well....in 91 the Bulls did have a few tough stretches against the Lakers. It's a bit underrated. MJ had some clutch shots in game 3. The score doesn't say it, but all of those games were close until one of them blew the point total out of the water in the final mins.

But anyway, I'm guessing Kobe Bulls team will have a tougher series against the Lakers. It would be fun to see Kobe guarding Magic. Haha.

But seriously, I dunno how many titles would Kobe win. Probably less. I'm guessing 4 titles overall?

Of course it depends on which Kobe you put in there.

[Jacks3]

No he wouldn't.

His shits would've dropped all across the board. He's not smart enough, not physically tough enough, nor mentally strong enough.

Yes, he would. lol @ your garbage. Not physically tough enough? Not smart enough? Not mentally strong enough? Did you miss 08-10 when a past-prime version of Bryant led LA to three straight Finals and back-to-back championships while playing three #1 defenses and 12 50+ win teams?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Bring-Your-Js]

I think they'd lose to the Knicks in '93 (down 0-2 ... Kobe would fold and Scottie would go right along with him) and Jazz in '98 (Utah's year really, MJ had to summon every ounce of will power to win that year I think).

Even if they beat the Knicks in '93, they aren't beating Phoenix in the Finals. It took monsterous performances to win that series, even with the Bulls winning the first two in Phoenix.

[andgar923]

Lets stop giving Kobe the benefit of the doubt here and be real.

He aint winning jack shit.

He isn't getting past some of the tough matchups the Bulls had to face, he hasn't shown that he can perform legendary feats over and over and over again on any sort of consistent basis... MJ did this.

Hell... I have a hard time believing that the Bulls even get past the Pistons, and thus laying the foundation with their first title.

I know what some are gonna say...

"but he has 5 rings!!!!, you're just a hater!!!"

Yeah... and check out his performances in some of the most clutch games. His teammates had to carry him or come up big, because he sure as hell didn't.

Again... if you don't believe the tapes, go look at the stats, either way the Lakers won because they just had the better team, not because Kobe was that much greater. This isn't the case with the Bulls teams, in which MJ had to will and carry them time after time after time.

Kobe just doesn't perform as well as MJ plain and simple.

They aint winning shit.

They aint getting past the Knicks, they aint getting past the Pistons, and IF they make the Finals, they're not beating anybody.

[twintowers]

The quality of threads falls down every day.....

[eliteballer]

Kobe would average 50 with that short 3 point line from 95-97.

[sekachu]

Kobe would average 50 with that short 3 point line from 95-97.



3 point line isn't the main factor, defense from 90s is the main issue for kobe

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzMWKo0uDu8

It's not an issue.

[Sakkreth]

Maybe one in 1991.

[blablabla]

3 point line isn't the main factor, defense from 90s is the main issue for kobe
defense in the early 2000 is much better than defense in the 90s
and kobe averaged 30 in 2003 so that's not a problem for him

well if we talk about 03/04 05/06 and 06/07 Kobe for the title runs from 91 to 93 he wins atleast 2 maybe even 3

and if we have 07/08 - 09/10 Kobe for 96-98
it's the same

so he wins about 4-6 titles

[andgar923]

MJ can avg 50+ pts in today's era.

It's not an issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw

[andgar923]

defense in the early 2000 is much better than defense in the 90s
and kobe averaged 30 in 2003 so that's not a problem for him

well if we talk about 03/04 05/06 and 06/07 Kobe for the title runs from 91 to 93 he wins atleast 2 maybe even 3

and if we have 07/08 - 09/10 Kobe for 96-98
it's the same

so he wins about 4-6 titles
:roll:

[LA_Showtime]

Three or four. I think they'd beat the Lakers, Blazers, and Jazz (97 seasons), and have a shot at beating the Suns and Jazz too.

[Marlo Stanfield]

Four

[Jacks3]

defense from 90s is the main issue for kobe
Too bad defenses from the 00's are easily better, especially from 99-04.

[Jacks3]

defense in the early 2000 is much better than defense in the 90s
and kobe averaged 30 in 2003 so that's not a problem for him

well if we talk about 03/04 05/06 and 06/07 Kobe for the title runs from 91 to 93 he wins atleast 2 maybe even 3

and if we have 07/08 - 09/10 Kobe for 96-98
it's the same

so he wins about 4-6 titles
:applause:

[andgar923]

I get it... it's a joke.

You guys had me for a while.. LOL.

Because there's no way that the player who has failed in historically epic proportions will be able to re-create some of MJ's legendary and epic feats.

Good one guys!

:cheers:

[LA_Showtime]

I get it... it's a joke.

You guys had me for a while.. LOL.

Because there's no way that the player who has failed in historically epic proportions will be able to re-create some of MJ's legendary and epic feats.

Good one guys!

:cheers:

Yup. You got us. Kobe, a top 10 player and the second best SG of all-time would clearly struggle to win any championships with a squad that just happened to contend even though Jordan retired and gave them no time to find a suitable replacement.

[Jacks3]

Andgar makes loco seem reasonable. :oldlol:

[LA_Showtime]

Andgar makes loco seem reasonable. :oldlol:

:oldlol: @ loco. Fitting name, really. Seriously though, Oldschool's a smart guy. He basically admits to trolling. Guys like Andgar and Gyno are just stupid.

[andgar923]

Yup. You got us. Kobe, a top 10 player and the second best SG of all-time would clearly struggle to win any championships with a squad that just happened to contend even though Jordan retired and gave them no time to find a suitable replacement.

You guys keep forgetting that without MJ's mythical performances they don't win shit.

He did this consistently time and time again, in every one of their runs.

On the flip side, Kobe has a history of consistently doing the opposite.

And.... I know you guys LOVE to bring up stats (although only when it's convenient for you guys) they're not close, specially in deciding, important games.

Ya'll can call me every name in the book. Call me delusional, an idiot, a hater etc.etc. Kobe simply has not performed to the standards that MJ has... PERIOD.

Is Kobe great? sure.

But he's no MJ.

Again... IF they even make the Finals (which imo they won't... ever) they lose to every one of the Bulls' opponents during their 6 titles. Kobe wouldn't have performed at the level needed to win, because well.... he has a history of not doing so... night and day.

[DMAVS41]

I get it... it's a joke.

You guys had me for a while.. LOL.

Because there's no way that the player who has failed in historically epic proportions will be able to re-create some of MJ's legendary and epic feats.

Good one guys!

:cheers:

Jesus man. Kobe is one of the best players ever. One player does not win a title. Teams do. Those 6 Bulls teams were very good. You really think its absurd to think that Kobe wins a couple titles?

That doesn't mean Kobe is as good as MJ. Everyone knows that is not true, but there is no ****ing way a player as great as Kobe doesn't win at least a title.

Hell, they played in the same system under the same coach....and Kobe has 5 titles.

But yea, its a joke to think he'd win on some pretty damn good Bulls teams.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

This line of thinking is exactly why titles are so ****ing over-rated when it comes to ranking players. The truth is that winning the title has a lot more to do with circumstances, luck, and the role players than it does with a star.

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol: @ loco. Fitting name, really. Seriously though, Oldschool's a smart guy. He basically admits to trolling. Guys like Andgar and Gyno are just stupid.

I find you to be one of the worst posters here.

[MaxFly]

Kobe would average 50 with that short 3 point line from 95-97.

Wild exaggeration. However, that shortened three point line during Bryant's prime would have been interesting to see.

[LA_Showtime]

You guys keep forgetting that without MJ's mythical performances they don't win shit.

He did this consistently time and time again, in every one of their runs.

On the flip side, Kobe has a history of consistently doing the opposite.

And.... I know you guys LOVE to bring up stats (although only when it's convenient for you guys) they're not close, specially in deciding, important games.

Ya'll can call me every name in the book. Call me delusional, an idiot, a hater etc.etc. Kobe simply has not performed to the standards that MJ has... PERIOD.

Is Kobe great? sure.

But he's no MJ.

Again... IF they even make the Finals (which imo they won't... ever) they lose to every one of the Bulls' opponents during their 6 titles. Kobe wouldn't have performed at the level needed to win, because well.... he has a history of not doing so... night and day.

No one's saying he's Jordan...? I just think it's ridiculous that you think replacing the #1 shooting guard of all-time with the #2 shooting guard of all-time makes them go from 6 championships to 0. That's ****ing retarded. Last time I checked, Jordan didn't win those championships by himself.

[LA_Showtime]

I find you to be one of the worst posters here.

That's wonderful. Everyone here finds you to be one of the craziest, most annoying thread killers on this site.

[andgar923]

Jesus man. Kobe is one of the best players ever. One player does not win a title. Teams do. Those 6 Bulls teams were very good. You really think its absurd to think that Kobe wins a couple titles?

That doesn't mean Kobe is as good as MJ. Everyone knows that is not true, but there is no ****ing way a player as great as Kobe doesn't win at least a title.

Hell, they played in the same system under the same coach....and Kobe has 5 titles.

But yea, its a joke to think he'd win on some pretty damn good Bulls teams.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

This line of thinking is exactly why titles are so ****ing over-rated when it comes to ranking players. The truth is that winning the title has a lot more to do with circumstances, luck, and the role players than it does with a star.

Like you mentioned... circumstances, luck etc.etc.

Kobe played with all star centers, in a weak era for big men.
Kobe has played miserably in many key games and sub par in the finals, but luckily was helped by his teammates.

Now let us look at the circumstances surrounding MJ.

No all star center in an era with great big men.
Needed to come through in legendary fashion time and time again for them to advance and/or win series, Kobe... urrr. not so much.
MJ's had to carry his teams far more than Kobe has.

Again... the stats back me up on this, and so do the tapes.

Now.... I wouldn't be stating none of this, if MJ didn't need to put on a cape, or if Kobe didn't underperformed.... but like you said.... circumstances matter. We need to bring shit into context, and clearly, some posters aren't.

Bringing shit into context means, we have to look at how the series evolved, and we have evidence that MJ had to be mythical for them to win, no ifs or buts about it. Kobe's teams have won with him stincking up the joint, time and time again. Not just a game, but multiple games and series. And shall I bring up how he's lost in legendary fashion as well?

Circumstances and context tells us that the Bulls under Kobe would be a different team that don't win. Just the fact that the Bulls didn't have a dominant center alone is against him. As soft as Gasol is, he's still a franchise player/all star and one of the top centers in the current era. The Bulls had Luc f*ckin Longley and Bill Cartwright, do any of you seriously see Kobe winnning with them?

Oh...and let us forget a certain big man that Kobe played with.

Bring on the excuses, MJ's had to deal with everything ya'll can come up with, and he still won.

[DMAVS41]

That's wonderful. Everyone here finds you to be one of the craziest, most annoying thread killers on this site.

And look around. A bunch of Kobe stan morons like yourself. Just buying into the bullshit ESPN is selling.

Shocking that you would find someone that doesn't bow down for Kobe and the Lakers annoying.

Go back to listing your GPA on here. :roll:

[andgar923]

No one's saying he's Jordan...? I just think it's ridiculous that you think replacing the #1 shooting guard of all-time with the #2 shooting guard of all-time makes them go from 6 championships to 0. That's ****ing retarded. Last time I checked, Jordan didn't win those championships by himself.

But he would have to be Jordan in order for them to win.

Go back and watch their title runs.

There was always times in every playoff season when MJ had to perform at levels Kobe has not performed, in moments in which Kobe has crumbled.

Shit... don't get mad at me, these are the facts jack.

Take off Gasol and Bynum from the Lakers squad and the Lakers go back to a middle of the pack team. I'm sure Kobe would get more points, but they aint winning a damn thing. Give him Luc and Bill in any era and their still not winnning anything, let alone the era in which the Bulls dominated.

[DMAVS41]

Like you mentioned... circumstances, luck etc.etc.

Kobe played with all star centers, in a weak era for big men.
Kobe has played miserably in many key games and sub par in the finals, but luckily was helped by his teammates.

Now let us look at the circumstances surrounding MJ.

No all star center in an era with great big men.
Needed to come through in legendary fashion time and time again for them to advance and/or win series, Kobe... urrr. not so much.
MJ's had to carry his teams far more than Kobe has.

Again... the stats back me up on this, and so do the tapes.

Now.... I wouldn't be stating none of this, if MJ didn't need to put on a cape, or if Kobe didn't underperformed.... but like you said.... circumstances matter. We need to bring shit into context, and clearly, some posters aren't.

Bringing shit into context means, we have to look at how the series evolved, and we have evidence that MJ had to be mythical for them to win, no ifs or buts about it. Kobe's teams have won with him stincking up the joint, time and time again. Not just a game, but multiple games and series. And shall I bring up how he's lost in legendary fashion as well?

Circumstances and context tells us that the Bulls under Kobe would be a different team that don't win. Just the fact that the Bulls didn't have a dominant center alone is against him. As soft as Gasol is, he's still a franchise player/all star and one of the top centers in the current era. The Bulls had Luc f*ckin Longley and Bill Cartwright, do any of you seriously see Kobe winnning with them?

Oh...and let us forget a certain big man that Kobe played with.

Bring on the excuses, MJ's had to deal with everything ya'll can come up with, and he still won.

Which is why nobody is claiming Kobe would win 6. You act like Kobe is incapable of playing great.

I'm known as the biggest Kobe hater here. A label I proudly take on.

But this is just silly. Yes, there would be a drop off....but definitely not a 6 to 0 drop off. I see him winning 2.....maybe 3.

0 in a hypothetical like this is a joke. Sorry.

And again, I love to put the moron Kobe stans like LA Showtime in their place. But for once, he's right.

[LA_Showtime]

Like you mentioned... circumstances, luck etc.etc.

Kobe played with all star centers, in a weak era for big men.
Kobe has played miserably in many key games and sub par in the finals, but luckily was helped by his teammates.

Now let us look at the circumstances surrounding MJ.

No all star center in an era with great big men.
Needed to come through in legendary fashion time and time again for them to advance and/or win series, Kobe... urrr. not so much.
MJ's had to carry his teams far more than Kobe has.

Again... the stats back me up on this, and so do the tapes.

Now.... I wouldn't be stating none of this, if MJ didn't need to put on a cape, or if Kobe didn't underperformed.... but like you said.... circumstances matter. We need to bring shit into context, and clearly, some posters aren't.

Bringing shit into context means, we have to look at how the series evolved, and we have evidence that MJ had to be mythical for them to win, no ifs or buts about it. Kobe's teams have won with him stincking up the joint, time and time again. Not just a game, but multiple games and series. And shall I bring up how he's lost in legendary fashion as well?

Circumstances and context tells us that the Bulls under Kobe would be a different team that don't win. Just the fact that the Bulls didn't have a dominant center alone is against him. As soft as Gasol is, he's still a franchise player/all star and one of the top centers in the current era. The Bulls had Luc f*ckin Longley and Bill Cartwright, do any of you seriously see Kobe winnning with them?

Oh...and let us forget a certain big man that Kobe played with.

Bring on the excuses, MJ's had to deal with everything ya'll can come up with, and he still won.

It's not that simple. That's why these hypothetical situations are stupid to begin with. You can't just plug one player into another player's shoes and expect the entire outline of events to stay the same.

What does having an all-star caliber center have to do with anything? History shows you need a strong defensive presence up front to win championships, not a dominant big man who puts up 20 and 10. The Bulls had that.

It just doesn't make sense. The gap between Jordan and Kobe isn't as wide as you'd like to think and Kobe would at the very least win 1 or 2 titles with the Bulls (probably more, I'd say 3 or 4).

[LA_Showtime]

But he would have to be Jordan in order for them to win.

Go back and watch their title runs.

There was always times in every playoff season when MJ had to perform at levels Kobe has not performed, in moments in which Kobe has crumbled.

Shit... don't get mad at me, these are the facts jack.

Take off Gasol and Bynum from the Lakers squad and the Lakers go back to a middle of the pack team. I'm sure Kobe would get more points, but they aint winning a damn thing. Give him Luc and Bill in any era and their still not winnning anything, let alone the era in which the Bulls dominated.


No one is getting mad at you. :oldlol: I just think it's idiotic to say that Kobe, a guy who probably affects the game between 5-10% less than Jordan, would make the Bulls, a dominant team with a great head coach, second option, and role players who stepped up consistently, essentially a pretender.

[DMAVS41]

But he would have to be Jordan in order for them to win.

Go back and watch their title runs.

There was always times in every playoff season when MJ had to perform at levels Kobe has not performed, in moments in which Kobe has crumbled.

Shit... don't get mad at me, these are the facts jack.

Take off Gasol and Bynum from the Lakers squad and the Lakers go back to a middle of the pack team. I'm sure Kobe would get more points, but they aint winning a damn thing. Give him Luc and Bill in any era and their still not winnning anything, let alone the era in which the Bulls dominated.

No, he wouldn't. There was room some years for a drop off. 91 for example, the Bulls lost 2 games all playoffs. You really think Kobe doesn't win that year in a hypothetical like this? You have to use a little bit of logic and evidence.

[LA_Showtime]

Wild exaggeration. However, that shortened three point line during Bryant's prime would have been interesting to see.

Yeah, especially the Lakers core comprised of Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. That would've been ridiculously fun to watch.

[andgar923]

Which is why nobody is claiming Kobe would win 6. You act like Kobe is incapable of playing great.

I'm known as the biggest Kobe hater here. A label I proudly take on.

But this is just silly. Yes, there would be a drop off....but definitely not a 6 to 0 drop off. I see him winning 2.....maybe 3.

0 in a hypothetical like this is a joke. Sorry.

And again, I love to put the moron Kobe stans like LA Showtime in their place. But for once, he's right.

He's not beating the Pistons.
He's not beating the Knicks.
He's not beating the Lakers.
He's not beating the Cavs
He's not beating the Magic.
He's not beating the Jazz.
He's not beating the Sonics.
He's not beating the Suns.

And I doubt that he can beat the Heat (under Riley) or even the better Pacers teams.

Remember.... first he needs to get to the Finals.

And if he does, we know how well he does there. How is he gonna win a ring if he has a history of sucking? against some great players and teams? Pippen aint gonna save him, he doesn't do so well himself. Luc? who is he gonna rely on? is he gonna chuck and chuck up shots like he has his entire Finals career?

or is he gonna get Pippen and his low fg% involved? oh yeah... feed it to his all star big man... oh wait.

It would be nice to believe "well... he's one of the greatest players ever, so why not just plug him in, and I"m sure he can win at least 2, at the very least."

But once we start to think about shit, it doesn't become as easy as just plugging a player in. Same with the other retarded situations and threads we've seen as of late. YOu can't just plug in a player and expect shit to automagically happen.

[LA_Showtime]

He's not beating the Pistons.
He's not beating the Knicks.
He's not beating the Lakers.
He's not beating the Cavs
He's not beating the Magic.
He's not beating the Jazz.
He's not beating the Sonics.
He's not beating the Suns.

And I doubt that he can beat the Heat (under Riley) or even the better Pacers teams.

Remember.... first he needs to get to the Finals.

And if he does, we know how well he does there. How is he gonna win a ring if he has a history of sucking? against some great players and teams? Pippen aint gonna save him, he doesn't do so well himself. Luc? who is he gonna rely on? is he gonna chuck and chuck up shots like he has his entire Finals career?

or is he gonna get Pippen and his low fg% involved? oh yeah... feed it to his all star big man... oh wait.

It would be nice to believe "well... he's one of the greatest players ever, so why not just plug him in, and I"m sure he can win at least 2, at the very least."

But once we start to think about shit, it doesn't become as easy as just plugging a player in. Same with the other retarded situations and threads we've seen as of late. YOu can't just plug in a player and expect shit to automagically happen.

:oldlol:

[Quizno]

He's not beating the Pistons.
He's not beating the Knicks.
He's not beating the Lakers.
He's not beating the Cavs
He's not beating the Magic.
He's not beating the Jazz.
He's not beating the Sonics.
He's not beating the Suns.

And I doubt that he can beat the Heat (under Riley) or even the better Pacers teams.

Remember.... first he needs to get to the Finals.

And if he does, we know how well he does there. How is he gonna win a ring if he has a history of sucking? against some great players and teams? Pippen aint gonna save him, he doesn't do so well himself. Luc? who is he gonna rely on? is he gonna chuck and chuck up shots like he has his entire Finals career?

or is he gonna get Pippen and his low fg% involved? oh yeah... feed it to his all star big man... oh wait.

It would be nice to believe "well... he's one of the greatest players ever, so why not just plug him in, and I"m sure he can win at least 2, at the very least."

But once we start to think about shit, it doesn't become as easy as just plugging a player in. Same with the other retarded situations and threads we've seen as of late. YOu can't just plug in a player and expect shit to automagically happen.
wow dude, that's a stupid ****ing post :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

He's not beating the Pistons.
He's not beating the Knicks.
He's not beating the Lakers.
He's not beating the Cavs
He's not beating the Magic.
He's not beating the Jazz.
He's not beating the Sonics.
He's not beating the Suns.

And I doubt that he can beat the Heat (under Riley) or even the better Pacers teams.

Remember.... first he needs to get to the Finals.

And if he does, we know how well he does there. How is he gonna win a ring if he has a history of sucking? against some great players and teams? Pippen aint gonna save him, he doesn't do so well himself. Luc? who is he gonna rely on? is he gonna chuck and chuck up shots like he has his entire Finals career?

or is he gonna get Pippen and his low fg% involved? oh yeah... feed it to his all star big man... oh wait.

It would be nice to believe "well... he's one of the greatest players ever, so why not just plug him in, and I"m sure he can win at least 2, at the very least."

But once we start to think about shit, it doesn't become as easy as just plugging a player in. Same with the other retarded situations and threads we've seen as of late. YOu can't just plug in a player and expect shit to automagically happen.

I can't prove you wrong, but you are not being logical.

Kobe, in his prime, was around 15% to 20% worse than Jordan. A few of those Bulls team could have seen a drop off like that and still won. 91 and 97 are examples of this.

And again, Kobe at his best is even closer to MJ. And Kobe has been at his best at times in the playoffs.

The only argument you have is that Kobe would crumble in the finals every single year. I don't buy it. He'd play well enough to win just like he has many times.

[LA_Showtime]

I don't even know why Kobe's shortcomings in the Finals are being brought up. Kobe has consistently played against the top rated defense or the team that was generally regarded as the best defensively. That always gets overlooked for some reason.

[andgar923]

No, he wouldn't. There was room some years for a drop off. 91 for example, the Bulls lost 2 games all playoffs. You really think Kobe doesn't win that year in a hypothetical like this? You have to use a little bit of logic and evidence.

And shall we look at how great MJ performed during that run?

Has Kobe ever played like Mj did in the Finals?

Like somebody mentioned, some of those games were close, and MJ had to come through big time, if not they lose... plain and simple.

Knowing what we know and having FACTS and history back us up, do we expect Kobe to lead them past the Lakers in these moments?

Me thinks not.

let us all go back and watch tape, the Bulls could've easily lost in every one of their title runs. A game here and a game there and it's over for them.

Didn't happen, cause MJ was there.

[LA_Showtime]

Well, I guess we can officially label Andgar as the Indian Guy of Jordan's Bulls.

[DMAVS41]

And shall we look at how great MJ performed during that run?

Has Kobe ever played like Mj did in the Finals?

Like somebody mentioned, some of those games were close, and MJ had to come through big time, if not they lose... plain and simple.

Knowing what we know and having FACTS and history back us up, do we expect Kobe to lead them past the Lakers in these moments?

Me thinks not.

let us all go back and watch tape, the Bulls could've easily lost in every one of their title runs. A game here and a game there and it's over for them.

Didn't happen, cause MJ was there.

Not every year. Certainly not in 91. There was plenty of margin for error actually.

[LA_Showtime]

And shall we look at how great MJ performed during that run?

Has Kobe ever played like Mj did in the Finals?

Like somebody mentioned, some of those games were close, and MJ had to come through big time, if not they lose... plain and simple.

Knowing what we know and having FACTS and history back us up, do we expect Kobe to lead them past the Lakers in these moments?

Me thinks not.

let us all go back and watch tape, the Bulls could've easily lost in every one of their title runs. A game here and a game there and it's over for them.

Didn't happen, cause MJ was there.

Since were playing this game Kobe wouldn't have retired and left the Bulls with no time to sign anyone else. Therefore, you could add those years to the discussion. :oldlol:

[andgar923]

I can't prove you wrong, but you are not being logical.

Kobe, in his prime, was around 15% to 20% worse than Jordan. A few of those Bulls team could have seen a drop off like that and still won. 91 and 97 are examples of this.

And again, Kobe at his best is even closer to MJ. And Kobe has been at his best at times in the playoffs.

The only argument you have is that Kobe would crumble in the finals every single year. I don't buy it. He'd play well enough to win just like he has many times.

That's the only argument needed!!!

You expect a player that has been as bad as he has in the Finals to just play well enough for them to win?

MJ had to play more than just well enough, he had to f*ckin be amazing for them to win! What does playing well enough even mean?

Him sucking just a little less?

I'm serious.

How less badly does Kobe need to play for them to win?

Remember.... he has Pippen and Luc as his teammates, not Gasol or Shaq.

So does Kobe need to play 10% less sucky? or 25% less sucky for them to win? Sorry.... 'well enough'.

[DMAVS41]

That's the only argument needed!!!

You expect a player that has been as bad as he has in the Finals to just play well enough for them to win?

MJ had to play more than just well enough, he had to f*ckin be amazing for them to win! What does playing well enough even mean?

Him sucking just a little less?

I'm serious.

How less badly does Kobe need to play for them to win?

Remember.... he has Pippen and Luc as his teammates, not Gasol or Shaq.

So does Kobe need to play 10% less sucky? or 25% less sucky for them to win? Sorry.... 'well enough'.


Do you realize that Pippen is a better player than Gasol? Please answer.

[andgar923]

Besides... there's one significantly huge aspect ya'll are either avoiding or ignorantly overlooking.

Knowing what we know about Kobe, and knowing what we know about the Bulls' rise to glory.

How is he gonna help transform them from a struggling team, to champions, specially Pippen?

Errrr..... ummmm....

Yeah... we all know of Pippen as a top 50 player, but if we replace MJ with Kobe, that means that he also gets the raw rookie. How is Kobe gonna transform him and the entire franchise?

Here's a hint.....

He won't.

He just started to 'get it' about 4 years ago, and even then that's debatable. And all this after MJ laid down the roadmap for him to follow, and Phil and the triangle had been established already.

[andgar923]

Do you realize that Pippen is a better player than Gasol? Please answer.

He's not a big man.

Different roles.

Shall we look at the performance differential between MJ and PIp and Kobe and Gasol or Shaq? or even Odom for shits and giggles?

We'll see who had to carry who the most. And Kobe would need to do lots more carrying than he currently does. As the difference in performance is wider for MJ and Pip than vice versa.

[sekachu]

defense in the early 2000 is much better than defense in the 90s
and kobe averaged 30 in 2003 so that's not a problem for him

well if we talk about 03/04 05/06 and 06/07 Kobe for the title runs from 91 to 93 he wins atleast 2 maybe even 3

and if we have 07/08 - 09/10 Kobe for 96-98
it's the same

so he wins about 4-6 titles


early 2000 defense is as good as 90s, not better.

Thanks for telling the truth that kobe could only average 30 ppg once on 45%when he had to deal with handchecking, body contact and physical before 2006.
So it obviously does have a problem for him

[Duncan21formvp]

0 because in no year has Kobe won a title and led his team in overall production. Shaq has led the team in Win Shares and PER from 2000-2002 and Gasol the 2 years the Lakers won especially in 2010.
Kobe would need to be wayy more productive than Pippen for the Bulls to win and he wasn't even as productive as Gasol.

[blablabla]

early 2000 defense is as good as 90s, not better.

Thanks for telling the truth that kobe could only average 30 ppg once on 45%when he had to deal with handchecking, body contact and physical before 2006.
So it obviously does have a problem for him
why do people act like basketball in the 90s was like a pick up game in the bronx
the same people who want to tell me that wilt records are irrelevant want to hype up jordan because of the"tough defense" in the 90s
real handchecking was banned in the 70s so the era before that was the toughest right the era in which wilt scored 100 in one game
sure 90s defense is tougher than the defense right now but the defense right is better
and do you think that kobe one of the greatest scorers of all time would struggle to average 25-30 points in the 90s

[catch24]

No one's saying he's Jordan...? I just think it's ridiculous that you think replacing the #1 shooting guard of all-time with the #2 shooting guard of all-time makes them go from 6 championships to 0. That's ****ing retarded. Last time I checked, Jordan didn't win those championships by himself.

I guess I'm "retarded" too. It took some of the most legendary performances of all-time (not only in the Finals but the playoffs) by MJ for the Bulls to advance and continue winning titles.

There's a reason he's regarded as the greatest postseason player ever.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

I get it... it's a joke.

You guys had me for a while.. LOL.

Because there's no way that the player who has failed in historically epic proportions will be able to re-create some of MJ's legendary and epic feats.

Good one guys!

:cheers:

So butthurt :oldlol: it's hilarious

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

0 because in no year has Kobe won a title and led his team in overall production. Shaq has led the team in Win Shares and PER from 2000-2002 and Gasol the 2 years the Lakers won especially in 2010.
Kobe would need to be wayy more productive than Pippen for the Bulls to win and he wasn't even as productive as Gasol.

:roll:

Some of you posters are hilarious really

[rodman91]

http://www.altay1914.com/news2/resim/zero.gif

[gengiskhan]

No he wouldn't.

His shits would've dropped all across the board. He's not smart enough, not physically tough enough, nor mentally strong enough.

Besides.... with what center?

You think Kobe can win in an era filled with superior big men if he played with Carthwright or Longley?

He can barely win in today's weak big men era with an all star center, how is he gonna do that with Will Purdue?

this.

I see kobe making it to 1 finals at most. But will NOT win the finals.

I see kobe & Bulls loosing to .....

-1997 & 1998 Jazz just cuz of Stockton's D & Jazz experience & chemistry
-1996 sonics cuz Payton's suffocating D on kobe & Kemps MVP finals run.
-1993 Barkley & suns cuz of true PG in KJ & true PF in Barkley having MVP finals run.

-1992 Blazers cuz of Clyde's D on Kobe & Blazer chemistry & Blazers Experience of 1990 finals loss.

1991 Lakers. Kobe & Pip looses in tough fought 6 game series. Kobe's inability to use Pip to his advantage leads to shot jocking. Magic & vastly experience lakers take full advantage of this.

Kobe just dont have to to go all the way in '90s without dominant big men. Kobe cannot handle physically aggressive D. Kobe & Pip will have lots of chemistry issues.

Besides

I can never imagine Kobe beating 1992 & 1993 Knicks to make it to NBA finals.

[DRoseOwnsACamry]

2, and I think I'm being generous. Kobe's a HOFer, yes, but what he and Mike did were very, very different...

[gengiskhan]

http://www.altay1914.com/news2/resim/zero.gif

this.

[kaiiu]

4-5. The 90s was a horrible era and the NBA is better in the 00s.

Even if he only wins 1 from 90-93, he most definitely 3 peating in that horrible second 3 peat

[tpols]

Are we really going to act like Kobe from 06 to 10 wasn't better than post 95 Jordan?:oldlol: And Jordan won 3 chips then.. so Kobe would grab 3-4 from 95 to 2000 and at least 1 before that. He'd come out with 4+.

Of course without having Jordan's style to mimmick he wouldn't be the same dominant player, but I'm transposing the Kobe we have all seen into that era just like he was.

[Anaximandro1]

Kobe, in his prime, was around 15% to 20% worse than Jordan.
To be fair,there is often a fine line between victory and defeat.Zero rings is unlikely but not impossible.

[tpols]

To be fair,there is often a fine line between victory and defeat.Zero rings is unlikely but not impossible.
Jordan's teams made it to the ECF and were a contender with Pete Myers in his place.. they are MUCH better than what Kobe won multiple titles with in the late 2000s. Anyone who thinks he's winning 0 is a fvcking clown. :oldlol:

[tpols]

The real question should be how many titles does post first retirement Jordan win with a lineup of Fisher/Ariza[Artest][Radmonovic]/Gasol/Odom + a terrible bench? No way he makes 3 Finals and wins more than 1 chip with that team.

[catch24]

Jordan's teams made it to the ECF and were a contender with Pete Myers in his place.. they are MUCH better than what Kobe won multiple titles with in the late 2000s. Anyone who thinks he's winning 0 is a fvcking clown. :oldlol:

Semi Finals, not Conference Finals

But yeah, I guess I'm a clown...

[Eric Cartman]

5 titles. Probably wouldn't have beaten Barkley's Suns.

[IGOTGAME]

I guess I'm "retarded" too. It took some of the most legendary performances of all-time (not only in the Finals but the playoffs) by MJ for the Bulls to advance and continue winning titles.

There's a reason he's regarded as the greatest postseason player ever.

I guess you are "retarded" then. Jordan's legendary performance's were not necessary to win those every title. There were years were they were nice to watch but the team could have won with him playing worst and others picking up the slack.

Kobe is winning more than 0 titles.

[Da_Realist]

The real question should be how many titles does post first retirement Jordan win with a lineup of Fisher/Ariza[Artest][Radmonovic]/Gasol/Odom + a terrible bench? No way he makes 3 Finals and wins more than 1 chip with that team.

This. I can definitely see Jordan cough up a 25+ point lead at home in a game they needed to tie the series and then quit in a deciding game six on the way to getting blown out by 39 points. 40% against the Magic is generous for Jordan and so is that 6-24 game 7 performance as the Bulls regularly carried him to titles. And I certainly can see him getting swept with homecourt advantage and quitting in another deciding game before losing by 30+ points cause that sh*t used to happen all the time. :oldlol:

[catch24]

I guess you are "retarded" then. Jordan's legendary performance's were not necessary to win those every title. There were years were they were nice to watch but the team could have won with him playing worst and others picking up the slack.

Kobe is winning more than 0 titles.

Yup. Not like everything here is hypothetical or anything...

[andgar923]

I guess you are "retarded" then. Jordan's legendary performance's were not necessary to win those every title. There were years were they were nice to watch but the team could have won with him playing worst and others picking up the slack.

Kobe is winning more than 0 titles.


Okay...... name some.

Now remember, we're talking about entire playoff runs including the Finals.

[IGOTGAME]

Okay...... name some.

Now remember, we're talking about entire playoff runs including the Finals.

No need to go through game by game. The games wouldn't play out the same with Kobe in place of Jordan(they wouldn't play out the same if you had Jordan replay the same games). I simply believe the best team would win MOST times in a seven game series. I think Kobe would win based on the latter premise at least once.

[GOBB]

If Kobe replaced the bulls in the 90's I wouldn't have watched the bulls like they were my own team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Are we really going to act like Kobe from 06 to 10 wasn't better than post 95 Jordan?:oldlol:

Kobe has never been better than 1996 Jordan, and only has two years ('06/'07 - not '06-'10) where he was as good as 1997 Jordan. From '06-'09 Kobe was equal to or better than 1998 Jordan (better in '06/'07 and POSSIBLY '08, and probably equal in '09).

[OldSchoolBBall]

The real question should be how many titles does post first retirement Jordan win with a lineup of Fisher/Ariza[Artest][Radmonovic]/Gasol/Odom + a terrible bench? No way he makes 3 Finals and wins more than 1 chip with that team.

You're kidding, right? :oldlol: Jordan wins every one of those titles. Get real. :oldlol:

[FourthTenor]

My gut feeling says zero as well.

MJ had to be legendary for them to win during their reign. He didn't just play good enough, he had to carry them far more than what Kobe's had too carry his team. Hell... all we have to do is look at deciding or important games to know that he would've lost them some series.

Kobe's teams have helped out Kobe tremendously, far more than MJ's teams have helped out MJ. And the stats prove this.

https://img.skitch.com/20110709-kn2j9u3htwk8nmkjtfj1udcyq7.jpg


https://img.skitch.com/20110709-c3berd29fa1wy35um9b1u5rkig.jpg

http://www.backpicks.com/2010/12/20/clutch-or-choker-kobe-bryant-vs-karl-malone-in-elimination-games/

Wow, that's a definite eye-opener.

[FourthTenor]

Jordan's teams made it to the ECF and were a contender with Pete Myers in his place.. they are MUCH better than what Kobe won multiple titles with in the late 2000s. Anyone who thinks he's winning 0 is a fvcking clown. :oldlol:


It's much more complex than just inserting kobe's over-all value as a player into jordan's place and deciding if that would be good enough. Almost as important as just having a collection of talent is the way the pieces fit together. Obviously we know how it worked out with Michael at the two. Speculating about ANYONE else without an extremely similar style of play would be impossible.

Even if you want to argue Kobe and Michael as roughly comparable players in a vacuum, a player's value is going to vary from team to team. Jordan may have been the perfect fit for the Bulls, and Kobe may not have been. Kobe is more of a shooter, so it benefits him to have a skilled post player who can pass, Jordan is more of a finisher, so it may have helped him not to have a big guy demanding touches in the paint.

It's feasible the Bulls with Kobe could have won multiple titles, it's also feasible they could have won none. There's no clear answer.

[Da_Realist]

Much more interesting question is what would have happened if you drafted Kobe to the 84/85 Bulls? Let's assume Kobe plays the exact same way he does now, to avoid confusion.

[Indian guy]

He would win 3-4 championships.

[Rysio]

lol at the overrating of jordan

all he tried to do every game was score. pippen was the one doing everything else and if kobe's assignment is to score and let pippen do the rest he easily would be averaging around 35-37 each year. fact

6-7 rings

[andgar923]

No need to go through game by game. The games wouldn't play out the same with Kobe in place of Jordan(they wouldn't play out the same if you had Jordan replay the same games). I simply believe the best team would win MOST times in a seven game series. I think Kobe would win based on the latter premise at least once.
Again.... history says otherwise.

And this isn't even close.

Shall we revisit at how badly Kobe's teams have struggled vs inferior teams?

Kobe's Bulls would be in a lot more trouble than MJ's Bulls would've been, and he would've had to been even more heroic more times.

Again.... they aint winning shit.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol at the overrating of jordan

all he tried to do every game was score. pippen was the one doing everything else and if kobe's assignment is to score and let pippen do the rest he easily would be averaging around 35-37 each year. fact

6-7 rings

Which I guess is why Jordan posted better all-around numbers in every respect than Kobe, and had a significantly larger defensive impact too. Go figure. :oldlol:

If "all Jordan did was score," then what can be said of Kobe, who literally does less of EVERYTHING than Jordan did, particularly first three-peat MJ? :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Wild exaggeration. However, that shortened three point line during Bryant's prime would have been interesting to see.
The shortened three point line arguments NEVER make sense. They shortened the line to raise scoring because defense was being played so well. Kobe already shoots behind the regular 3 point line, sometimes WAY behind the 3 point line ... what would a few extra feet and MORE defensive pressure due to defenses being more compact actually do for him? (closer three point line actually makes the half court set smaller) ...

And I hate how when people analyze Jordan's 3 point shooting percentage they say take out the '95, '96, and '97 season. Why? MJ didn't change the rules. It would be like saying knock 5 ppg off every permiter players scoring average from 2005 - till now, and you have their actual scoring average when you're allowed to play defense.

It's also not fair considering as Jordans career progressed he became a better shooter, every single season. By 1993, his athleticism was at the lowest it had ever been (still probably the most athletic player in the league, though) and he shot 35% from the "real" NBA three point line. That is outstanding. So given that he became a better shooter over the tenure of his career, as he stopped driving relentlessly to the bucket, and shot the jumper more ... you have to take that into account. MJ wasn't a bad three point shooter by any stretch.

Sorry for the tangent, just something that bothers me when people talk Jordan.

[LA_Showtime]

I guess I'm "retarded" too. It took some of the most legendary performances of all-time (not only in the Finals but the playoffs) by MJ for the Bulls to advance and continue winning titles.

There's a reason he's regarded as the greatest postseason player ever.

I guess so. It's ridiculous to think that replacing Jordan with the second best shooting guard of all-time essentially makes the Bulls go from contenders to pretenders. Absolutely ludicrous.

[catch24]

I guess so. It's ridiculous to think that replacing Jordan with the second best shooting guard of all-time essentially makes the Bulls go from contenders to pretenders. Absolutely ludicrous.

It just isn't that black and white.

There's a pretty significant gap between the best and "second best shooting guard". Kobe isn't even a top 10 postseason performer while Jordan is arguably #1.

[97 bulls]

It seems to me andgar is assuming that kobe takes the same shots as mj makes mjs exact moves etc. As if they're playing horse. The fact is the bulls team was good enough to win with a cushion every year. They were only taken to 7 once (98 vs the pacers). I forgot about the knicks so twice. And kobe has shown the ability to take over games. Maybe not as much as jordan, but definately enough to win championships with a team as talented as the bulls were. And definately not 6. I see it play out like this

91 yes
92 probably not
93 hell no
96 absolutely but they don't win 72 games. Maybe 65
97 absolutely but they don't win 69 games. Possible 63-64
98 possible if pippen doesn't get hurt. But with an injured pippen no way.

From reading this thread its clear that andgar has NO RESPECT for any of the bulls outside of jordan. Its as if jordan was playing 1 on 12. He obviously forgets that pippen. Pippen took over games in his own right. Remember 91? How bout game 6 of 92? He forgets what rodman did in 96. And the great series that longley had that year too, relatively speaking.

All of you that feel bryant doesnt win one championsip, You really need to open your eyes

[Samurai Swoosh]

Kobe isn't even a top 10 postseason performer while Jordan is arguably #1.
Fundamental difference. Post season performance.

Game, blouses

http://i28.tinypic.com/8yysyu.jpg

[Jacks3]

Are we really going to act like Kobe from 06 to 10 wasn't better than post 95 Jordan?:oldlol: And Jordan won 3 chips then.. so Kobe would grab 3-4 from 95 to 2000 and at least 1 before that. He'd come out with 4+.

Of course without having Jordan's style to mimmick he wouldn't be the same dominant player, but I'm transposing the Kobe we have all seen into that era just like he was.
This.

[Jacks3]

He would win 3-4 championships.
+1.

[Jacks3]

lol @ Kobe not winning 3-4 rings on a team that won 55 games and was a bad call away from the ECF WITHOUT Jordan. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

I guess so. It's ridiculous to think that replacing Jordan with the second best shooting guard of all-time essentially makes the Bulls go from contenders to pretenders. Absolutely ludicrous.
Exactly, they don't remember how dominant those bulls teams were its not like they backed their way into the playoffs. Or barely won. They won pretty convinceingly. Including years of 67,72, and 69 wins. And going 15-2 in the 91 playoffs.

[Jacks3]

Kobe has never been better than 1996 Jordan, and only has two years ('06/'07 - not '06-'10) where he was as good as 1997 Jordan.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Samurai Swoosh]

91 yes
92 probably not
93 hell no
96 absolutely but they don't win 72 games. Maybe 65
97 absolutely but they don't win 69 games. Possible 63-64
98 possible if pippen doesn't get hurt. But with an injured pippen no way
See, I don't dee Kobe winning in '91. The mental toughness, leadership, and selfless game that was required to beat the Pistons ... I don't see Kobe replicating that, honestly.

I also don't see Kobe being a great player against really physical teams. So the first three 90's chips are a long shot.

I think Kobe's best chances of winning were the two weakest years the Bulls won (and dominated in the process)

'96 and '97 would be Kobe's to win for sure.

'91, '92, '93, '98 ... I honestly don't see it.

[TheMarkMadsen]

No he wouldn't.

His shits would've dropped all across the board. He's not smart enough, not physically tough enough, nor mentally strong enough.

Besides.... with what center?

You think Kobe can win in an era filled with superior big men if he played with Carthwright or Longley?

He can barely win in today's weak big men era with an all star center, how is he gonna do that with Will Purdue?


is this dude serious? i suppose winning 5 chips is considered "barely" winning, and i hope you're not refering to gasol as an all star center, he plays power forward.

[97 bulls]

See, I don't dee Kobe winning in '91. The mental toughness, leadership, and selfless game that was required to beat the Pistons ... I don't see Kobe replicating that, honestly.

I think Kobe's best chances of winning were the two weakes years the Bulls won (and dominated in the process)

'96 and '97 would be Kobe's to win for sure.

'91, '92, '93, '98 ... I honestly don't see it.
What do you mean weak in referring to 96 and 97? And I don't see why they don't win in 91. The bulls dominated. They only lost 2 games that year. I think pippen and grant finally matured. And once that happened, there was no stopping them.

[gengiskhan]

I see it play out like this

DEFINITELY NOT


91 yes

Lakers went up 1-0. MJ had all time greatest game 2. Can kobe do that ? NO. Game 3, MJ buzzer beater & took over in OT Bulls go up 2-1.

POINT #1: KOBE NEVER SHOWS UP IN FIRST 3 games of NBA Finals. By the time kobe has a great game of 38 pts It will be Game 4. GUESS WHAT. By then Lakers are up 3-0.


92 probably not

DEFINITELY NOT.

Kobe + Pip aint beating rough & tough Physical D of NYK & Pat Riley's coaching tactics. Knicks in 5.



96 absolutely but they don't win 72 games. Maybe 65

NO WAY. Kobe & Pip loses to Payton & Kemp. WHY? DPOY Payton's D will force Kobe to have his worse ever finals (21 ppg at max). Kemp goes bezerk. Sonics in 6.


97 absolutely but they don't win 69 games. Possible 63-64

WHO DA FAAK WILL TACKLE REG SEA MVP MALONE IN THE PAINT. Stockton & Russell will neutralize kobe. NO Dominent big man, Kobe aint beating stockton + Malone + Sloan trio. Jazz in 6


98 possible if pippen doesn't get hurt. But with an injured pippen no way.
.
Pip or no Pip. Jazz were even better in '98 than '97. Kobe wont stop Jazz from winning back-2-back.

In reality, KOBE CANNOT BEAT '98 PACERS. just wont make it to finals.


All of you that feel bryant doesnt win one championsip, You really need to open your eyes

Kobe dont win any championship WITHOUT DOMINANT BIG MAN IN '90s FOR SURE.

KOBE needs a dominant big man in '00 decade to win rings with relaxed offensive era.

How is he gonna win anything when he runs into Barkley, Malone, Kemp etc.

The only person is you who need to open his eyes.

[catch24]

See, I don't dee Kobe winning in '91. The mental toughness, leadership, and selfless game that was required to beat the Pistons ... I don't see Kobe replicating that, honestly.

I also don't see Kobe being a great player against really physical teams. So the first three 90's chips are a long shot.

I think Kobe's best chances of winning were the two weakest years the Bulls won (and dominated in the process)

'96 and '97 would be Kobe's to win for sure.

'91, '92, '93, '98 ... I honestly don't see it.

Great minds think alike. I predicted he'd maybe win 1, and that would be somewhere during the second 3-peat.

People forget that even though the Bulls in '91 stomped their competition, Jordan was all-time GREAT in most of those games. Do people not consider that season his peak year (we all know where most rank Jordan's peak at) or am I living under a rock????

[thejumpa]

2 max...that ***** Kobe aint MJ. Pretty good clone, but that aint the real thang.

[LA_Showtime]

It just isn't that black and white.

There's a pretty significant gap between the best and "second best shooting guard". Kobe isn't even a top 10 postseason performer while Jordan is arguably #1.

"It just isn't that black and white."

Tell that to the people who are literally just putting Kobe in Jordan's place. The outcomes wouldn't be exactly the same. :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

What do you mean weak in referring to 96 and 97?
What do you mean .. "what do I mean"?

:oldlol:

Those were EASILY the two weakest years in terms of talent and teams in the NBA as far as I can remember.

The league had just been diluted with two pointless NBA franchises, in Stern's futile attempt to globalize a NATIONAL league.

And the league was on a down turn. There was some good teams, but they were fewer and far between. The best players from the late 80's and early 90's were aging rapidly and were shells of their former selves (Ewing and the Knicks, Hakeem, Drexler, Barkely, etc)

The exception to that was Jordan. Who is freakishly durable, and contantly refined his game with age from year to year, season to season, and he took great care of his body from '91 - '98.



And I don't see why they don't win in 91. The bulls dominated. They only lost 2 games that year. I think pippen and grant finally matured. And once that happened, there was no stopping them.
They dominated in the post season, but that was because '90 and '91 were Jordan's absolute pinnacle in terms of his prime play. The Bulls should have won in '90 too, if Pippen weren't so mentally fragile at that time.

Jordan in '91 was utterly ridiculous. That's the reason they were so good in 1991. And as you said Pippen and Grant finally being ready.

Jordan averaged 37 ppg and 35 ppg his 3rd and 4th year in the league. '91 Jordan was so much more polished, and in '91 he added more muscle mass (the summer of '90 was when he started finally working with Tim Grover) ... if that guy wanted to I could legit have seen that version of Jordan averaging 40+ ppg.

But back to the point, Bryant's caliber play, especially against physical teams like the 2010, 2008 Celtics and the 2004 Pistons ... I don't see him being playing the proper selfless floor game to beat the '91 Pistons.

I just don't ... MJ was a more mature player than Bryant is even now.

[Big#50]

We all know Kobe needs a good big to win. Kobe with Perdude, Longley, Wennington, Cartwright means no rings.

[catch24]

"It just isn't that black and white."

Tell that to the people who are literally just putting Kobe in Jordan's place. The outcomes wouldn't be exactly the same. :oldlol:

Oh I agree... which is why all these hypothetical threads are f'ing stupid. A proper (although still contingent) way of debating this would be right here:


1 title in 1986 at the most. First of all, the dumb thing about these threads is that there is no details. Neither Bird, Dirk, or any player is the same player they always are throughout their career. People are saying Dirk could've won a title on that 1981 Celtics team. Which Dirk? Are we putting Dirk at his best on each of those Celtics teams? Cause thats not very fair. Conveniently, now Dirk and Bird have played through a 13 year span, so this is easy to compare. The most appropriate thing to do is to use the same stages of their career, meaning 1999 (rookie) Dirk on the 1980 Celtics when Bird was a rookie, then 2000 Dirk on the 1981 Celtics, then 2001 Dirk on the 1982 Celtics, and etc. So here goes:

1980 Celtics with 99 Dirk - Good chance they don't even make the playoffs, and if they do its a first round knockout.

1981 Celtics with 00 Dirk - Again, there's a chance they don't make playoffs, and if they do, best case scenario is they lose in the 2nd round. There's no way they get past the Bucks or Sixers.

1982 Celtics with 01 Dirk - First great year of Dirk's career, but lose to Sixers or Bucks.

1983 Celtics with 02 Dirk - Lose to Bucks or Sixers

1984 Celtics with 03 Dirk - Lose to Lakers in Finals.

1985 Celtics with 04 Dirk - Lose to Lakers in Finals.

1986 Celtics with 05 Dirk - Beat Rockets in Finals. (Very skeptical about this since this Dirk had a really bad playoffs. But I'll give him and the rest of the Celtics the benefit of the doubt.)

1987 Celtics with 06 Dirk - Lose to Pistons in ECF or Lakers in Finals.

1988 Celtics with 07 Dirk - Lose to Pistons.

1989 Celtics with 08 Dirk - Lose to Pistons or Bulls.

1990 Celtics with 09 Dirk - Lose to Pistons or Bulls.

1991 Celtics with 10 Dirk - Lose to Pistons or Bulls.

1992 Celtics with 11 Dirk - Lose to Bulls.

1 title at the most. And by the way, I think if you put Bird on Dirk's Mavs in the same situation, I think they win 3-4 titles with 84-88 Bird on the 03-07 Mavs. The 04 Pistons, 05 Spurs, or 07 Spurs would be threats.

Different players, same idea.

[LA_Showtime]

Oh I agree... which is why all these hypothetical threads are f'ing stupid. A proper (although still contingent) way of debating this would be right here:



Different players, same idea.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think it was just a complete waste of time posting in this thread. All you're going to get is a bunch of homers arguing about their boy.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yeah, I'm beginning to think it was just a complete waste of time posting in this thread. All you're going to get is a bunch of homers arguing about their boy.
I openly root for both, I feel my opinion is pretty un-biased.

[LA_Showtime]

I openly root for both, I feel my opinion is pretty un-biased.

Change my previous post to: "You're going to get a lot of homers." :oldlol:

[catch24]

Change my previous post to: "You're going to get a lot of homers." :oldlol:

Word.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Great minds think alike. I predicted he'd maybe win 1, and that would be somewhere during the second 3-peat.

People forget that even though the Bulls in '91 stomped their competition, Jordan was all-time GREAT in most of those games. Do people not consider that season his peak year (we all know where most rank Jordan's peak at) or am I living under a rock????
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/109190631.gif

[97 bulls]

What do you mean .. "what do I mean"?

:oldlol:

Those were EASILY the two weakest years in terms of talent and teams in the NBA as far as I can remember.

The league had just been diluted with two pointless NBA franchises, in Stern's futile attempt to globalize a NATIONAL league.

And the league was on a down turn. There was some good teams, but they were fewer and far between. The best players from the late 80's and early 90's were aging rapidly and were shells of their former selves (Ewing and the Knicks, Hakeem, Drexler, Barkely, etc)

The exception to that was Jordan. Who is freakishly durable, and contantly refined his game with age from year to year, season to season, and he took great care of his body from '91 - '98.



They dominated in the post season, but that was because '90 and '91 were Jordan's absolute pinnacle in terms of his prime play. The Bulls should have won in '90 too, if Pippen weren't so mentally fragile at that time.

Jordan in '91 was utterly ridiculous. That's the reason they were so good in 1991. And as you said Pippen and Grant finally being ready.

Jordan averaged 37 ppg and 35 ppg his 3rd and 4th year in the league. '91 Jordan was so much more polished, and in '91 he added more muscle mass (the summer of '90 was when he started finally working with Tim Grover) ... if that guy wanted to I could legit have seen that version of Jordan averaging 40+ ppg.

But back to the point, Bryant's caliber play, especially against physical teams like the 2010, 2008 Celtics and the 2004 Pistons ... I don't see him being playing the proper selfless floor game to beat the '91 Pistons.

I just don't ... MJ was a more mature player than Bryant is even now.
Really? Even in 97? They played a 44 win bullets team that had chris webber, juwan howard a defensive beast in 7'7 gheorge muresan and rod strickland in the first round. Then they played the 56 win hawks that had the mutombo, steve smith, and mookie blaylock, as well as christian laetner? How bout the 61 win heat? With alonzo mourning, tim hardaway, dan majarle, pj brown and jamal mashburn and pat riley as their coach? Then they played the 64 win jazz. Hell they didn't have to play the 55 win knicks or the 54 win pistons. And that was just the eastern conference. How was that a weak league? In fact, I defy you to show me a tougher road to a finals championship.

Also, I think its insensitive to call pippen mentally fragile. His father had died during that 90 playoff run. There are more important things in life you know. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[sayitaintso]

If you replace Jordan with Kobe in the 1990s, i see the Planet Pluto getting an NBA franchise and Kobe demanding to be traded there. He would have gotten Pippen and Horace Grant traded for a veteran point guard in Dennis Johnson.

[catch24]

If you replace Jordan with Kobe in the 1990s, i see the Planet Pluto getting an NBA franchise and Kobe demanding to be traded there. He would have gotten Pippen and Horace Grant traded for a veteran point guard in Dennis Johnson.

ROFL!

[NugzHeat3]

Kobe is not winning the first three championships.

On paper, he would win with the 1991 Bulls because their competition looked weak (Detroit was past their prime and ZEKE and Laimbeer were battling injuries, Scott and Worthy were hurt) but part of the reason it looked weak was because Jordan was just that good that year and the Bulls shared that same mentality as him.

Some of those first three-peat series were ridiculously close like the 1992 game 7 against New York where Jordan went BONKERS. The 1993 Knicks and Suns series were some really close series as well coming down to some big shots like the Paxson THREE and the Armstrong 3 @ MSG.

However, Kobe is winning the 1996 and 1998 championships fairly easily and probably the 1997 one too although I am a bit skeptical about how they deal with the Jazz. Those teams was just that good. They won't be as dominant but they would still win.

One thing I would like to see is how Kobe would adapt his game during the 1996-98 years because we haven't really seen Kobe primarily work off-ball like Jordan did during those years.

Pippen facilitating the offense would give him that luxury and allow more energy on the defensive end.

I would say 2-3.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Really? Even in 97? They played a 44 win bullets team that had chris webber, juwan howard a defensive beast in 7'7 gheorge muresan and rod strickland in the first round. Then they played the 56 win hawks that had the mutombo, steve smith, and mookie blaylock, as well as christian laetner? How bout the 61 win heat? With alonzo mourning, tim hardaway, dan majarle, pj brown and jamal mashburn and pat riley as their coach? Then they played the 64 win jazz. Hell they didn't have to play the 55 win knicks or the 54 win pistons. And that was just the eastern conference. How was that a weak league? In fact, I defy you to show me a tougher road to a finals championship.
None of those teams apart from the Magic, Sonics, and '97 Heat had the talent to beat the Bulls.

That's the point. They only faced three teams who had enough talent to beat them. And they played two of them in '96 in back to back series. In '97 the Heat, and that's it.

Not the '97 Jazz
Not the '97 Bullets
Not the '97 Hornets
Not the '96 Heat
Not the '96 Knicks

'98 was a difficult road to the Finals due to the age, injury, weaker roster and mileage ...

But even then, it wasn't great competition.

[97 bulls]

Like I said eralier, this isn't H-O-R-S-E. Bryant doesn't need to do exactly what jordan did. The bulls were talented enough to win with a player that isn't quite as talented as jordan. They just wouldn't have won in as dominant a fashion ie the 72/69 wins etc. And they don't win every year. You guys forget the bulls did win 55 games in 94. Put kobe bryant in place of pete myer (jordans replacement) and they win 62 games and another championship.

[97 bulls]

None of those teams apart from the Magic, Sonics, and '97 Heat had the talent to beat the Bulls.
You can say that for just about every nba champion that was favored or had homecourt throughout the playoffs. Here we go setting standards that only the bulls have to meet
That's the point. They only faced three teams who had enough talent to beat them. And they played two of them in '96 in back to back series. In '97 the Heat, and that's it.

Not the '97 Jazz
Not the '97 Bullets
Not the '97 Hornets
Not the '96 Heat
Not the '96 Knicks

'98 was a difficult road to the Finals due to the age, injury, weaker roster and mileage ...

But even then, it wasn't great competition.
Dude, I just went through teams that had hofers and damn good talent in the first round. Again, what was wrong with the teams I mentioned? Tell me. Just saying they weren't good enough is a flawed argument.

[catch24]

Good debate going on here.

http://www.giantsfootballblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/get-your-popcorn-ready.jpg

BRB

[Samurai Swoosh]

Dude, I just went through teams that had hofers and damn good talent in the first round. Again, what was wrong with the teams I mentioned? Tell me. Just saying they weren't good enough is a flawed argument.
But just saying they were good enough isn't a flawed argument? Really? You're clearly a '97 Bulls homer. Even the champions of those teams, MJ included, have conceeded the early 90's Bulls were the better teams.

You called Gheorge Muresan a defensive beast ...

:facepalm

[NugzHeat3]

But just saying they were good enough isn't a flawed argument? Really? You're clearly a '97 Bulls homer. Even the champions of those teams, MJ included, have conceeded the early 90's Bulls were the better teams.

You called Gheorge Muresan a defensive beast ...

:facepalm
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

I agree though. In regards to both the early 90s Bulls being better and the late 90s being rather weak years.

I don't think they were as weak as the early 00s though. The East was just horrible back then cause of Zo and Hill injuries, the Pacers being broken apart ect ect.

[DeronMillsap]

1991, definitely yes.
1992, no way.
1993, nope.
1996, possibly but I don't think they would have 72 wins either.
1997, yes.
1998, yes.

So 3 titles and maybe 4.

[Chaddai]

So many dumb kobe fans here zzz. Did you know the defense in the 90s were tougher/more physical (hand checks,etc). I doubt Kobe can perform well in those times. Kobe is no MJ. If Kobe is GOAT, then why cant he shoot over 50% (some of you guys said his prime fadeaways were unstoppable, but still he only shot 45%-46% during his prime) ? Why cant he be number 1 in the Player Efficiency Ratings? Stop over hyping him. Kobe's first 3 rings have Shaq's face on them. Kobe wasnt the leader, Shaq was. Kobe only led the Lakers 2 times to a championship as the leader in contrast to MJ leading the bulls 6 times to a championship. Dont get me wrong though, Kobe is a damn good player, but kind of inconsistent. I just dont like the MJ and Kobe comparisons.

[zay_24]

Kobe wouldnt retire like no lil ho, so they win 91-til 2000

[D.J.]

They would almost certainly lose to the Knicks in 1993. Down 0-2, no chance the Bulls come back. 1992 against the Knicks, not sure. Granted game 7 was at home, but Kobe in a game 7 isn't MJ in a game 7. 1998 is an iffy too. The Bulls trailed by double digits against Indiana in game 7.

[DMAVS41]

The real question should be how many titles does post first retirement Jordan win with a lineup of Fisher/Ariza[Artest][Radmonovic]/Gasol/Odom + a terrible bench? No way he makes 3 Finals and wins more than 1 chip with that team.

This might be your worst post ever....and that is saying a lot.

No way he makes three finals? Who did the Lakers really beat those three years in the West? They beat scrubs. Straight up scrubs besides the Spurs in 08.

In 09 they didn't even play a quality team the entire playoffs. In 10 they didn't play a quality team until the Finals.....oh, and they had the fortune of a starter for the other team going down the last two games.

Yep, its absurd to think MJ could match that. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[97 bulls]

But just saying they were good enough isn't a flawed argument? Really? You're clearly a '97 Bulls homer. Even the champions of those teams, MJ included, have conceeded the early 90's Bulls were the better teams.

You called Gheorge Muresan a defensive beast ...

:facepalm
I listed the core players. And their records. You just said they werent good. Actually pippen and said the second team was better. So that's a stalemate.

And I take back the defensive beasts thing but muresan was a very good center once he got the opportunity to start. Even winning the comeback poy avg 15 9 and leading the leagu in fg%.

[rodman91]

http://haberpan.net/haber/11/02/12/5f02/kobe-bryant-thy-icin-mutfaga-girdi.jpg

Kobe would stay in kitchen in 90's...

[Micku]

What do you mean weak in referring to 96 and 97? And I don't see why they don't win in 91. The bulls dominated. They only lost 2 games that year. I think pippen and grant finally matured. And once that happened, there was no stopping them.


I don't think they would be able to dominant as much if you replace Kobe with MJ. MJ just put up some crazy numbers, some of those games in the playoffs were close.

Like someone said, the 91 Finals was a bit underrated in that aspect. Most of the games in that Finals were close. But you have to analysis the different things that would happen.

Kobe would be sticking Magic unless they want him to stick Worthy.

Jordan had this made like 13 shots in a row in game 2 along with 13 assists and 7 rebounds, along with Pippen's D and good team defense with Magic.

Kobe probably will not pull that great of performance, but I dunno if it would result in a lost. Plus, one of the things that is underrated is that Jordan's playmaking. Jordan average 11 apg in the Finals, and this lead to easy buckets. But it wasn't just the assists. Jordan was just making plays and was being a good passer, making some good plays. I'm not sure if Kobe could do the same thing as Jordan did, which will result in a harder series.

Game 3 was super close, which lead to a Jordan shot to send it to OT. It was the most important game of the series.

Game 4 and game 5 was closer than what it seemed to be. Same thing with game 2 a bit, but Jordan and John Paxson couldn't miss.


Not saying that a Kobe 91 Bulls wouldn't win it (depends on which Kobe), but it would be more difficult.

[G-Funk]

4-5 leaning more towards 4 but 5 is not far fetch to me

[TheMarkMadsen]

Replace Jordan with Kobe on the 90 bulls? Easy, 0 rings, dude was like 11 at the time.

[97 bulls]

I don't think they would be able to dominant as much if you replace Kobe with MJ. MJ just put up some crazy numbers, some of those games in the playoffs were close.

Like someone said, the 91 Finals was a bit underrated in that aspect. Most of the games in that Finals were close. But you have to analysis the different things that would happen.

Kobe would be sticking Magic unless they want him to stick Worthy.

Jordan had this made like 13 shots in a row in game 2 along with 13 assists and 7 rebounds, along with Pippen's D and good team defense with Magic.

Kobe probably will not pull that great of performance, but I dunno if it would result in a lost. Plus, one of the things that is underrated is that Jordan's playmaking. Jordan average 11 apg in the Finals, and this lead to easy buckets. But it wasn't just the assists. Jordan was just making plays and was being a good passer, making some good plays. I'm not sure if Kobe could do the same thing as Jordan did, which will result in a harder series.

Game 3 was super close, which lead to a Jordan shot to send it to OT. It was the most important game of the series.

Game 4 and game 5 was closer than what it seemed to be. Same thing with game 2 a bit, but Jordan and John Paxson couldn't miss.


Not saying that a Kobe 91 Bulls wouldn't win it (depends on which Kobe), but it would be more difficult.
I agree a kobe lead bulls team would obviously not be as talented. But they'd still be very talented though.

[97 bulls]

I think this thread has shown which who the more unresonable people are. Obviously the people that say kobe would win 6 championships are just trolls. But most of the people that have replied and are knwon kobe fans have at least knocked off 2 of the bulls championships. But the pro jordan crowd...... bullheaded. Kobe on the bulls means 0 championships. And that's shows who's more trollish

[Jacks3]

Yup. Even loco said 2-4 titles.

[Jasper]

How many titles do the 90s Bulls win?

Assume Kobe doesn't retire like MJ did in 94-95 either. Same roster though.
maybe 2 ..

The reason I say it , Jordan in the second three peat was a mistro to his teammates and got every oz. of sweat out of them.

Kobe other than the 2009 season an individual player.

Jackson even stated the same on a recent ESPN special.

* I don't pip would of been 60% effective with a running mate of Kobe.

[97 bulls]

maybe 2 ..

The reason I say it , Jordan in the second three peat was a mistro to his teammates and got every oz. of sweat out of them.

Kobe other than the 2009 season an individual player.

Jackson even stated the same on a recent ESPN special.

* I don't pip would of been 60% effective with a running mate of Kobe.
What years do you think the bulls would've won with kobe replacing jordan?

[magnax1]

Depends on what years of Kobe's career you're talking about. If he was 08-10 championship level every year, then he'd probably win in 96, probably 97, and 50/50 98, though I think it's 50/50 98 for both of them if you replay those playoffs. He wouldn't win at all 91-93 though.

[smush=mvp!]

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/6066466/1024/Anonymous/Untitled-1.jpg

replaced

[imdaman99]

No he wouldn't.

His shits would've dropped all across the board. He's not smart enough, not physically tough enough, nor mentally strong enough.

Besides.... with what center?

You think Kobe can win in an era filled with superior big men if he played with Carthwright or Longley?

He can barely win in today's weak big men era with an all star center, how is he gonna do that with Will Purdue?
lol this guy got salty real quick.
pretty much knew we couldn't take him seriously in this thread :lol

[Timmy D for MVP]

Would he have the drive? I mean Kobe is pretty driven but outside of Prime Tiger I've never seen an athlete that mentally locked in on winning. He held that team to the fire.

I honestly ask myself if Jordan were on the Lakers this year would they be swept by Dallas. I have a hard time seeing that.

Granted he's a better player so maybe talent wise they'd have an advantage but still even the mental game, that's what really sets Mike on another plane.

That said that team was so talented. I'm curious what he'd have done in the Triangle without any really good center (all the Bulls centers were solid to good but not Shaq or Pau) , but Kobe has the talent to lead a team as we've seen with the last two titles.

I think 1-3 is reasonable. I'd guess maybe 2.

[24r2]

Replace Jordan with Kobe on the 90 bulls? Easy, 0 rings, dude was like 11 at the time.

11 year old kobe would shit on 90s shooting guards

[eliteballer]

This is a pure joke. Jordans greatest comp in the East in the 90's had John Starks as the second best offensive option, dropping a whopping 14 PPG:roll:

Jordan was getting guarded by guys like a bum-knee Hornacek and the Suns who are maybe the WORST defensive team to play in the Finals in the last 30years.

Jordan had plenty of unclutch moments. Missing gamewinners in the Blazers, Lakers, and Suns series, tripping in one game of the Indiana series(getting outplayed by Travis Best) and missing a gamewinner in the other. Stinking it up in 93 against the Knicks and 95 against the Magic etc.

[nnn123]

Whenever this question is asked, it is quite lame because it suggests that we're taking the best version of Kobe (say '08) and replacing him with Jordan for every year in the 90s. More realistically, we should pick an 8 yr span of Kobe's career ('03 to '10) and ask what would happen if we inserted it into the 90s ('91-'98). I say 2 rings max. Kobe wasn't good enough in '03 to '05 to win in place of '91-'93 Jordan

[DMAVS41]

This is a pure joke. Jordans greatest comp in the East in the 90's had John Starks as the second best offensive option, dropping a whopping 14 PPG:roll:

Jordan was getting guarded by guys like a bum-knee Hornacek and the Suns who are maybe the WORST defensive team to play in the Finals in the last 30years.

Jordan had plenty of unclutch moments. Missing gamewinners in the Blazers, Lakers, and Suns series, tripping in one game of the Indiana series(getting outplayed by Travis Best) and missing a gamewinner in the other. Stinking it up in 93 against the Knicks and 95 against the Magic etc.

Do you really think MJ stunk against the Magic in 95?

19/5/3 39% TS 3 game score
38/7/3 57% TS 30 game score
40/7/4 57% TS 26 game score
26/7/3 53% TS 19 game score
39/4/2 62% TS 31 game score
24/9/7 51% TS 20 game score

Please answer. You really think he "stunk" in that series?

[eliteballer]

Jordan made tons of mistakes down the stretch of those games and couldnt guard anyone. Those gimmicky stats dont mean anything to me.

[DMAVS41]

Jordan made tons of mistakes down the stretch of those games and couldnt guard anyone. Those gimmicky stats dont mean anything to me.

Yea, MJ did not play at his usual level for sure. I just wondered if you still think he "stunk"....I guess you do.

[Hittin_Shots]

Anyone said if Kobe replaces Jordan he therefore doesn't grow up watching Jordan and modelling his game similarly and becomes a completely different player?

[rodman91]

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/6066466/1024/Anonymous/Untitled-1.jpg

replaced

:lol

[andgar923]

Anyone said if Kobe replaces Jordan he therefore doesn't grow up watching Jordan and modelling his game similarly and becomes a completely different player?

People can't grasp the chain of events which leads to effects.

They keep forgetting that if you replace Kobe with MJ then MJ's influence on the game and specially Kobe doesn't happen.

Without MJ, the Bulls don't become the Bulls, Pippen doesn't develop as a player, Phil doesn't become the legendary coach, the triangle doesn't become a successful NBA offense, Rodman can't be tamed, etc.etc. why can't people realize this?

This doesn't happen with Kobe in place.

Kobe has a history of being an even more selfish teammate than MJ, has a history of dissing and ignoring his coaching staff, even after the fact that Phil was already a 6 time world champ, pushing out the most dominant player of the modern era, being a selfish ahole to one of the greatest franchises in sports history, turning away advice from Magic, the list goes on.....

Remember...... not only are you not getting MJ, you're getting a young Kobe. Shit.... even this old Kobe is still very immature, egotistical, selfish, and incapable of being a consistent leader. How will a young Kobe deal with turning a franchise around from scratch?

While I understand that all the shit we're talking about here is pure hypothetical, I'm applying factors that we know of based on FACTS and shit that happened. I wouldn't be bringing up Kobe's failures if they were rare, I bring up Kobe's failures and bad performances because they've been a consistent pattern throughout his entire career! Not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, but too many for a player of his caliber. Sure... he has 6 rings, but he's performed sub par in every single one of the Finals and in many important games to even get to the Finals. I am not making this shit up, these are all facts. He's been fortunate enough to have teammates that have come through, not just once, or twice, or three times, but multiple times to put him in that position. And shit... .the playoff stats don't lie, and they're not even close between MJ and Kobe. Somebody stated that Kobe just needs to play well enough. But the gap between them is too big for Kobe to just play well enough, Kobe needs to play at a level that he's yet to come close to for his entire career in the Finals. The differential gap in performance between MJ and the second best performer on his team is larger than Kobe's. Hell.... Shaq outperformed him in every one of the playoff and Finals series, Gasol is right up there with Kobe, and Odom's performances have at times been around what Pippen's have been. Imagine if Kobe only had Odom to rely on. Yeah... that's something more similar to what MJ faced during his title runs. So take away Gasol and Shaq, do you really see Kobe winning 5 rings knowing what we know about Kobe's performances? Shit.... Fisher has been there more on both ends of the court than Kerr, Harper, BJ, Paxson, Brown almost combined.

People need to take into consideration that Kobe is NOT making the Bulls the Bulls, because without MJ they don't become it. And knowing Kobe's history they absolutely don't become it either. We've seen how inconsistent Kobe's teams have been and the records show this. And as we've seen during the duration of this thread, people's estimations for titles have been shrinking after some give it a little thought. Sorry... but Kobe aint winning shit with the Bulls.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

People can't grasp the chain of events which leads to effects.

They keep forgetting that if you replace Kobe with MJ then MJ's influence on the game and specially Kobe doesn't happen.

Without MJ, the Bulls don't become the Bulls, Pippen doesn't develop as a player, Phil doesn't become the legendary coach, the triangle doesn't become a successful NBA offense, Rodman can't be tamed, etc.etc. why can't people realize this?

This doesn't happen with Kobe in place.

Kobe has a history of being an even more selfish teammate than MJ, has a history of dissing and ignoring his coaching staff, even after the fact that Phil was already a 6 time world champ, pushing out the most dominant player of the modern era, being a selfish ahole to one of the greatest franchises in sports history, turning away advice from Magic, the list goes on.....

Remember...... not only are you not getting MJ, you're getting a young Kobe. Shit.... even this old Kobe is still very immature, egotistical, selfish, and incapable of being a consistent leader. How will a young Kobe deal with turning a franchise around from scratch?

While I understand that all the shit we're talking about here is pure hypothetical, I'm applying factors that we know of based on FACTS and shit that happened. I wouldn't be bringing up Kobe's failures if they were rare, I bring up Kobe's failures and bad performances because they've been a consistent pattern throughout his entire career! Not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, but too many for a player of his caliber. Sure... he has 6 rings, but he's performed sub par in every single one of the Finals and in many important games to even get to the Finals. I am not making this shit up, these are all facts. He's been fortunate enough to have teammates that have come through, not just once, or twice, or three times, but multiple times to put him in that position. And shit... .the playoff stats don't lie, and they're not even close between MJ and Kobe. Somebody stated that Kobe just needs to play well enough. But the gap between them is too big for Kobe to just play well enough, Kobe needs to play at a level that he's yet to come close to for his entire career in the Finals. The differential gap in performance between MJ and the second best performer on his team is larger than Kobe's. Hell.... Shaq outperformed him in every one of the playoff and Finals series, Gasol is right up there with Kobe, and Odom's performances have at times been around what Pippen's have been. Imagine if Kobe only had Odom to rely on. Yeah... that's something more similar to what MJ faced during his title runs. So take away Gasol and Shaq, do you really see Kobe winning 5 rings knowing what we know about Kobe's performances? Shit.... Fisher has been there more on both ends of the court than Kerr, Harper, BJ, Paxson, Brown almost combined.

People need to take into consideration that Kobe is NOT making the Bulls the Bulls, because without MJ they don't become it. And knowing Kobe's history they absolutely don't become it either. We've seen how inconsistent Kobe's teams have been and the records show this. And as we've seen during the duration of this thread, people's estimations for titles have been shrinking after some give it a little thought. Sorry... but Kobe aint winning shit with the Bulls.

You wasted a half a page typing this nonsense?

[andgar923]

You wasted a half a page typing this nonsense?
Sunday morning and I'm bored.

:banana:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Sunday morning and I'm bored.

:banana:

:oldlol: it's all good I can dig it

[97 bulls]

People can't grasp the chain of events which leads to effects.

They keep forgetting that if you replace Kobe with MJ then MJ's influence on the game and specially Kobe doesn't happen.

Without MJ, the Bulls don't become the Bulls, Pippen doesn't develop as a player, Phil doesn't become the legendary coach, the triangle doesn't become a successful NBA offense, Rodman can't be tamed, etc.etc. why can't people realize this?

This doesn't happen with Kobe in place.

Kobe has a history of being an even more selfish teammate than MJ, has a history of dissing and ignoring his coaching staff, even after the fact that Phil was already a 6 time world champ, pushing out the most dominant player of the modern era, being a selfish ahole to one of the greatest franchises in sports history, turning away advice from Magic, the list goes on.....

Remember...... not only are you not getting MJ, you're getting a young Kobe. Shit.... even this old Kobe is still very immature, egotistical, selfish, and incapable of being a consistent leader. How will a young Kobe deal with turning a franchise around from scratch?

While I understand that all the shit we're talking about here is pure hypothetical, I'm applying factors that we know of based on FACTS and shit that happened. I wouldn't be bringing up Kobe's failures if they were rare, I bring up Kobe's failures and bad performances because they've been a consistent pattern throughout his entire career! Not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, but too many for a player of his caliber. Sure... he has 6 rings, but he's performed sub par in every single one of the Finals and in many important games to even get to the Finals. I am not making this shit up, these are all facts. He's been fortunate enough to have teammates that have come through, not just once, or twice, or three times, but multiple times to put him in that position. And shit... .the playoff stats don't lie, and they're not even close between MJ and Kobe. Somebody stated that Kobe just needs to play well enough. But the gap between them is too big for Kobe to just play well enough, Kobe needs to play at a level that he's yet to come close to for his entire career in the Finals. The differential gap in performance between MJ and the second best performer on his team is larger than Kobe's. Hell.... Shaq outperformed him in every one of the playoff and Finals series, Gasol is right up there with Kobe, and Odom's performances have at times been around what Pippen's have been. Imagine if Kobe only had Odom to rely on. Yeah... that's something more similar to what MJ faced during his title runs. So take away Gasol and Shaq, do you really see Kobe winning 5 rings knowing what we know about Kobe's performances? Shit.... Fisher has been there more on both ends of the court than Kerr, Harper, BJ, Paxson, Brown almost combined.

People need to take into consideration that Kobe is NOT making the Bulls the Bulls, because without MJ they don't become it. And knowing Kobe's history they absolutely don't become it either. We've seen how inconsistent Kobe's teams have been and the records show this. And as we've seen during the duration of this thread, people's estimations for titles have been shrinking after some give it a little thought. Sorry... but Kobe aint winning shit with the Bulls.
You wanna talk about facts? Let's. Since jordan is god, why didn't the bulls win before phil jackson, and pippen came? Since hes good enough to create hof type basketball players, why didn't orlando woolridge who was a great scorer, evolve into a better player? If jordan is the sole reason for the bulls championships, why did the bulls go on to win 55 games? Even though he abruptly retired a few weeks before the season started, which hurt the bulls chances of finding a suitable replacement. And left them with nothing.

You're acting as if jordan "made" the bulls. Not lead the bulls to 6 championships. Your view on jordans role with the bulls is well past rediculous. Its as if he made all the shots, all the big defensive plays, made all the key decisions, even payed all the players.

Now im on board with you as far as jordan being the undisputed greatest of all time, but him being the only reason for the bulls success is past commical.

[AlphaWolf24]

You wanna talk about facts? Let's. Since jordan is god, why didn't the bulls win before phil jackson, and pippen came? Since hes good enough to create hof type basketball players, why didn't orlando woolridge who was a great scorer, evolve into a better player? If jordan is the sole reason for the bulls championships, why did the bulls go on to win 55 games? Even though he abruptly retired a few weeks before the season started, which hurt the bulls chances of finding a suitable replacement. And left them with nothing.

You're acting as if jordan "made" the bulls. Not lead the bulls to 6 championships. Your view on jordans role with the bulls is well past rediculous. Its as if he made all the shots, all the big defensive plays, made all the key decisions, even payed all the players.

Now im on board with you as far as jordan being the undisputed greatest of all time, but him being the only reason for the bulls success is past commical.


damn son.....you way too smart to be a Bull's fan:applause:

[LA_Showtime]

:oldlol: @ Andgar. Really? Pippen wouldn't have developed? Phil wouldn't be a legendary coach? The triangle would've sucked? Rodman would've stayed crazy? Give me a break, dude. You're delusional.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Kobe would have a tougher time making it to the NBA finals than winning it.

1991, I can see it. The Pistons were getting older. I wouldn't guarantee it as much as I would guarantee 1997 though. They would have a tough task beating Magic and the Lakers though.

1992, I could only see the Bulls winning it all if they get past the Knicks. The Blazers wouldn't be the hard part; the Knicks would be. That series went on to 7. I think the Knicks would have taken that series if Kobe replaced Jordan.

1993, same as 1992, but I don't think they would get past the Suns even if they did get past the Knicks.

1996, Jordan played very well below his standards in that finals and still won. The tougher series would be against Penny-Shaq and the Magic. I could see Kobe winning a title that season

1997 is pretty much the only year I definitely see Kobe winning a title. Karl Malone gift wrapped it to Jordan that year with his choke. It was also one of Jordan's easiest championship runs.

1998, I see the Bulls in the finals but losing to the Jazz. It really should have been the Jazz winning the title that season. Jordan unleashed every will power he had to win the title that year.


I see 1-2 at the least, 3-4 at the most. I am going to go with three. '91, '96, and '97.

[LA_Showtime]

1998, I see the Bulls in the finals but losing to the Jazz. It really should have been the Jazz winning the title that season. Jordan unleashed every will power he had to win the title that year.


.


Not to mention they were gifted two calls in game 6, which like it or not changed the momentum of the game.

[Indian guy]

It amazes me how some posters still aren't on everybody's IL. There should be a rule - 90% of LA fans, andgar23, that annoying KD fan....why would anyone wanna read what these trolls have to say?

[andgar923]

You wanna talk about facts? Let's. Since jordan is god, why didn't the bulls win before phil jackson, and pippen came? Since hes good enough to create hof type basketball players, why didn't orlando woolridge who was a great scorer, evolve into a better player? If jordan is the sole reason for the bulls championships, why did the bulls go on to win 55 games? Even though he abruptly retired a few weeks before the season started, which hurt the bulls chances of finding a suitable replacement. And left them with nothing.

You're acting as if jordan "made" the bulls. Not lead the bulls to 6 championships. Your view on jordans role with the bulls is well past rediculous. Its as if he made all the shots, all the big defensive plays, made all the key decisions, even payed all the players.

Now im on board with you as far as jordan being the undisputed greatest of all time, but him being the only reason for the bulls success is past commical.

Why can't you undertand 'process' and evolution?

Why didn't MJ make Wooldrige into an all star?

Perhaps because MJ was still young himself, and they didn't spend too much time together?

Why didn't MJ win before Phil? perhaps because he was still evolving as a player and a teammate, and perhaps because the Bulls weren't ready as a 'team'?

Again... this is all a process and an evolution that occurred, and MJ was the catalyst to this all. Anybody denying this is delusional or simply doesn't understand how things unfolded. Other players under similar circumstances wouldn't have had the same outcome. It's very easy to just think that things would've because MJ made them happen, but that's the reason MJ is considered THE Goat.

[andgar923]

It amazes me how some posters still aren't on everybody's IL. There should be a rule - 90% of LA fans, andgar23, that annoying KD fan....why would anyone wanna read what these trolls have to say?

tough.

Don't like my posts, go ahead and put me on IL, I'm sure I'll survive somehow.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe has proven he can win with one HOFer. He would certainly win with TWO HOFers....esp in the era of league expansion and high schoolers.

[catch24]

tough.

Don't like my posts, go ahead and put me on IL, I'm sure I'll survive somehow.

Yeah, kinda ironic isn't it? Lets not forget he's the same clown who thinks LeBron and Kobe are defended "no differently".

[Indian guy]

Lets not forget he's the same clown who thinks LeBron and Kobe are defended "no differently".

No, you're the same clown who hasn't done jacksh!t to prove otherwise. No to mention spewed the in a different league garbage :oldlol:

[catch24]

No, you're the same clown who hasn't done jacksh!t to prove otherwise. No to mention spewed the in a different league garbage :oldlol:

ROFL, you're the only who believes it... I don't need to "prove otherwise".

[AlphaWolf24]

Why can't you undertand 'process' and evolution?

Why didn't MJ make Wooldrige into an all star?

Perhaps because MJ was still young himself, and they didn't spend too much time together?

Why didn't MJ win before Phil? perhaps because he was still evolving as a player and a teammate, and perhaps because the Bulls weren't ready as a 'team'?

Again... this is all a process and an evolution that occurred, and MJ was the catalyst to this all. Anybody denying this is delusional or simply doesn't understand how things unfolded. Other players under similar circumstances wouldn't have had the same outcome. It's very easy to just think that things would've because MJ made them happen, but that's the reason MJ is considered THE Goat.


:lol ..Thank goodness Bill Russell , Magic , Bird , Duncan , Kobe and Wade didn't need 7 years to learn how to play..

[Indian guy]

ROFL, you're the only who believes it... I don't need to "prove otherwise".

Yeah, just because a lot of people(Kobe fans) believe something, it makes it true :rolleyes: Brilliant logic.

[game3524]

Depends on which Kobe we are talking about, if it is 06-08 Kobe then I can see him winning 2-4 championships.

[catch24]

Yeah, just because a lot of people(Kobe fans) believe something, it makes it true :rolleyes: Brilliant logic.

Wade is actually my favorite player in the game, but that's beside the point.

You're welcome to make a thread, proposing the same question, and tally up the results. Don't be shocked when 99% of the forum deduces you are mentally warped.

[Indian guy]

You're welcome to make a thread, proposing the same question, and tally up the results. Don't be shocked when 99% of the forum deduces you are mentally warped.

Majority of fans are incapable of overcoming long-held perceptions and forming an opinion based on what's actually happening on the court. These 99% of fans you speak of are probably the same morons who think LeBron's still some athletic freak and can't shoot. And considering that's all I heard on this board over the past season, it confirms the stupidity that's rampant on this board. I couldn't care less about what these people have to say.

All basketball logic and on-court evidence points towards LeBron being defended no differently 1-on-1 than Kobe. You're welcome to prove otherwise.

[catch24]

Majority of fans are incapable of overcoming long-held perceptions and forming an opinion based on what's actually happening on the court. These 99% of fans you speak of are probably the same morons who think LeBron's still some athletic freak and can't shoot. I couldn't care less about what they have to say.

All basketball logic and on-court evidence points towards LeBron being defended no differently 1-on-1 than Kobe. You're welcome to prove otherwise.

Right, we don't have your genius. It's OK, I'll do it for you though.

[97 bulls]

damn son.....you way too smart to be a Bull's fan:applause:
Andgar isn't abulls fan. He's a jordan fan. Even today, im sure he watches players and only watches them in comparison to jordan.

[97 bulls]

Why can't you undertand 'process' and evolution?

Why didn't MJ make Wooldrige into an all star?

Perhaps because MJ was still young himself, and they didn't spend too much time together?

Why didn't MJ win before Phil? perhaps because he was still evolving as a player and a teammate, and perhaps because the Bulls weren't ready as a 'team'?

Again... this is all a process and an evolution that occurred, and MJ was the catalyst to this all. Anybody denying this is delusional or simply doesn't understand how things unfolded. Other players under similar circumstances wouldn't have had the same outcome. It's very easy to just think that things would've because MJ made them happen, but that's the reason MJ is considered THE Goat.
I totally understand evolution. But im not gonna say jordan is god and created basketball players and coaches. Which is what your saying. And the reason woolridge didn't work out was cuz him and jordan were too similar. But let me ask you this. Why didn't he help brad sellers "evolve"? Sellars couldve been another garnett. He played with jordan 3 years, he had guard-like abilities at 7' (I don't know if you remember red auerbach saying that sellers was good but he wasn't a center). Why didn't jordan help him reach his potential. Why didn't jordan tell the coaching staff. To play sellersz more on the perimeter cuz that's where he was more comfortable instaed of trying to make him a center? Sellars and pippen came at roughly the same time so why didn't jordan help him evolve?

[Unstoppabull]

No, LeBron James will never approach Dwyane Wade's greatness.

[guy]

You wanna talk about facts? Let's. Since jordan is god, why didn't the bulls win before phil jackson, and pippen came?

LOL come on man. You know better then that. He played a total of 3 years without Pippen and 5 years without Phil, with 1 of these years being injured almost the whole year. That team was already pretty close to winning without Phil. They were young and still learning. If Scott Brooks left OKC and they then hired someone else like JVG and they went on to have a dynasty, are we all going to say that KD couldn't get it done without JVG? Thats stupid.

I disagreed with alot of andgar's earlier posts saying that Kobe wouldn't win 1 cause he couldn't step up as much as Jordan did. He wouldn't necessarily have to. Its not like every series they played in went 7 games. But thats assuming Pippen and everyone else develops the same way he did. And I agree with andgar that they wouldn't with Kobe instead of Jordan, so they wouldn't win any. He's just never had that same influence on his teammates IMO. And I fail to see anything wrong with someone saying Pippen was molded alot by Jordan. Many people that were around the 2 at the time say exactly that. Kobe has never molded anyone to anything great. For example, a guy like Lamar Odom with his length and athletiicism should be much better then he is after playing with Kobe, especially as a defender. But he's really not much different then he was when he first started playing Kobe, which has now been 7 seasons.

Now lets say we don't get that specific and assume the players around play no differently. For it to be a fair comparison, we also have to assume that its a year-by-year Kobe, not just prime Kobe plugged in every year, so its 1997-2010 Kobe in place of 1985-1998 Jordan. I'd say 3 titles in 94, 96, and 97. That would mean 06, 08, and 09 Kobe on those teams. 03-05 Kobe wasn't a good leader and he also had alot of injury/off-court issues, so they wouldn't win any of the first 3-peat. With 07 Kobe on the 95 Bulls, they'd run into the same frontcourt issues And no version of Kobe, especially not 2010 Kobe, would be able to will an old team like the 98 Bulls to a championship. I think he'd also win 2 MVPs, in 94 and 96 (06 and 08 Kobe).

[guy]

:lol ..Thank goodness Bill Russell , Magic , Bird , Duncan , Kobe and Wade didn't need 7 years to learn how to play..

:oldlol: at your idiocy.

[andgar923]

I totally understand evolution. But im not gonna say jordan is god and created basketball players and coaches. Which is what your saying. And the reason woolridge didn't work out was cuz him and jordan were too similar. But let me ask you this. Why didn't he help brad sellers "evolve"? Sellars couldve been another garnett. He played with jordan 3 years, he had guard-like abilities at 7' (I don't know if you remember red auerbach saying that sellers was good but he wasn't a center). Why didn't jordan help him reach his potential. Why didn't jordan tell the coaching staff. To play sellersz more on the perimeter cuz that's where he was more comfortable instaed of trying to make him a center? Sellars and pippen came at roughly the same time so why didn't jordan help him evolve?

Perhaps Sellers just didn't have it in him?
Perhaps Mj was still young at the time and still developing himself?
Perhaps he didn't have as much time?
Perhaps the coaching staff wasn't using him as they should?

Perhaps it's a combination of all these things some more than the others?

Again.... as we've mentioned a milion times.

Pip, coaching staff, journalists, ex-teammates and players, insiders, etc.etc .have all mentioned that MJ had a HUGE impact in molding Pippen into the player he became.

This isn't some sort of fanatical rant or make belief opinion, this shit actually happened, like it's a fuc*kn FACT.

Pippen just happened to be the right player and Sellers wasn't.

We can have these type of theoretical shitty questions all day....

Why didn't VC turn out to be better than Kobe?

Shit.... VC was a better athlete, came from the same college that produced MJ, wasn't as seriously injured as Tmac, so why isn't VC better?

:confusedshrug:

[sh0wtime]

I can guarantee at least less championships if that happened and you know me, i always say that a championship is a team accomplishment and the better team will always win, not the best player, but Michael Jordan was the best ever at team impact and probably the most talanted/skilled/complete player ever, i dont think anybody alive today could match the impact he brought to his team.

[Heilige]

I think Kobe wins 2 championships.

[jstern]

My gut also says zero. Like catch24, who is a Kobe fan, but a reasonable person.

Jordan was basically the GOAT, and despite Kobe having a similar style, and emulated him, he wasn't as good of a player, leader, and his personality was different so probably wouldn't mesh as well as Jordan.

The other thing is that one of the biggest things that Jordan set out to prove wrong was the notion that you needed a great big man to win multiple championships. You needed big man back then. And the biggest knock against Kobe is that he was Shaq's sidekick for 3 championships, and then had Gasol, which a lot of people think should have won Finals MVP 1 or 2 times.

[ImKobe]

08-10 Kobe has pretty much identical production to 96-98 MJ in the Playoffs

We know that Kobe could play in the Bulls' system since he was coached by Phil for all of his titles as well. Plus the fact that the 3pt line was shortened from 95-97, Kobe's long twos would give him three points instead.

I don't see why the Bulls wouldn't win at least 4-5 titles in the 90s when they never really were pushed to a brink of elimination in the Finals with Jordan, and they had a good enough supporting cast that they won 55 games and were a call away from the ECF in 1994, when Jordan was retired.