96-98 Jordan vs 08-10 Kobe

[Warriors fan]

TPOLS claims that MJ would have had no chance to replace Kobe from 08 to 10 and make 3 straight finals. He claims at most he makes 2 finals and wins 1 title.

Agree or disagree?

Also, does 98 Jordan get swept by the Mavs replacing Kobe this year?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckkLI7U8Btg

[Papaya Petee]

:roll: :roll: 96-98 Jordan is as good as Prime Kobe.

96- 30\7\4 50%
97- 30\6\4 48.5%
98- 29\6\4 47%

[gengiskhan]

wtf??

Kobe in his absolute prime ('05-'09) is like 70%-75% of 95-98 MJ at his best.

Many kobe'tards think '05-'08 Kobe = '95-'98 MJ which is a lie.

the above % is based on "efficiency" & not on some garbage overrated catagory like skillset, ball handling skills crap that kobe'tards ejaculate to.

keeping this in mind........

'08-'10 Kobe is like 65%-70% of '95-'98 MJ.

Kobe'tards need to remember why NBA MVP Kobe Lost NBA Finals to Celtics despite being clear favorites.

&

Kobe'tards need to also remember 1998 Jazz was favorite to beat old, tired & aging Bulls in 6 games. 1998 pacers also did the number on Bulls in brutal 7 game series. Plus, Pippen injury in 1998 NBA finals didnt help. Plus the fact that Bulls are weak at Big Man position.

1998 Championship over clear favorites Jazz is won because MJ just refused to Loose.

[zay_24]

Lol @ jordan stans thinkin Kobe at his PEAK was only 70% as good as old mike:lol :facepalm

06-10 Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PEAK cheese eyes

[gengiskhan]

:roll: :roll: 95-98 Jordan is clearly BETTER than Prime Kobe.


now its corrected.

MJ didnt just record 2 reg sea mvps, 3 finals mvps & 3 scoring titles in 3 full years because he was as good as prime Kobe.

Kobe has taken 15 NBA seasons to record 1 MVP & 2 Finals MVPs & 2 scoring titles in Weak Era.

1995-1998 MJ exceeded Kobe in just 3 years in much physically tough era with higher skill level.

[magnax1]

They're really close. Close enough that it's pretty tough to seperate who was better.

[zay_24]

lol @ 98 jordan taking 23 shots a game

lol @ 98 jordan taking 9 freethrows a game

disgust @ 98 jordan shooting 23% from the 3 point line :facepalm

smh @ 78% from the freethrow

scust @ this old ass negga only having 3 apg that year. My negga you old af, pass the ball more with yo 23% shootin asss

[gengiskhan]

They're really close. Close enough that it's pretty tough to seperate who was better.

Peak Kobe has won 2 scoring titles
96-98 MJ has won 3 scoring titles . Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has won 1 NBA MVP.
96-98 MJ has won 2 NBA MVPs. Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has won 2 Finals MVPs
96-98 MJ has won 3 Finals MVPs. Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has LOST 1 NBA Finals series despite being favorites.
96-98 MJ has NOT lost any NBA Finals series despite being underdog (1998). Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has failed to sweep MVP in a year.
96-98 MJ has won NBA MVP + Finals MVP TWICE. Advantage MJ

are you faking Blind. You still cannot seperate who is better. :facepalm

[magnax1]

Peak Kobe has won 2 scoring titles
96-98 MJ has won 3 scoring titles . Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has won 1 NBA MVP.
96-98 MJ has won 2 NBA MVPs. Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has won 2 Finals MVPs
96-98 MJ has won 3 Finals MVPs. Advantage MJ

are you faking Blind. You still cannot seperate who is better. :facepalm
Jordan did have the best team ever in 96, and 97, especially if you're going off defensive talent, so it's not really the same. They both are really really really close in playoff production, but I do think Jordan was a better defender, and Kobe a bit better at running the Lakers offense, and a bit more efficient. If I absolutely had to choose one, it'd probably be Jordan, but if you traded the two, you might no win any more or less games, especially since their games were extremely similar, except for Jordan getting inside more and Kobe relying more on his jumper.

[gengiskhan]

Jordan did have the best team ever in 96, and 97

excuses is all you get from Kobe fans. Nobody told Kobe not to win scoring title year after year after year once Shaq Left. Kobe should've had 6 scoring titles being a shot jocker that he is. But only 2 scoring titles is what he got.


I do think Jordan was a better defender, and Kobe a bit better at running the Lakers offense, and a bit more efficient.

Is this some joke. Kobe is more efficient. :roll: kobe runs the laker offense better.:roll: Kobe seriously LACKS efficiency & its the reason why Lakers lost to Pistons in '04 & '08 despite being favorites. Kobe has NO court vision, Low Bball IQ. Kobe will never be MJ, Bird or Magic. He can make tough shots once every 10 games.

96-98 MJ clearly mastered the game & reinvented it. Kobe in his absolute prime peak is 75% of MJ at very best. Kobe lacks mastery like MJ mastered the inside & outside game. Magic mastered PG position. Bird mastered playing without ball in his hand.

Hence MJs efficiency was clearly superior to kobe's inefficiency. shot jocking, ball hogging is different thing. Both MJ & Kobe did that at some point in their career.

Kobe just lacks mastery because of low Bball IQ. Kobe still cannot play without the ball. Kobe is a weak playmaker even compared to LBJ let alone MJ.

[kaiiu]

lol @ 98 jordan taking 23 shots a game

lol @ 98 jordan taking 9 freethrows a game

disgust @ 98 jordan shooting 23% from the 3 point line :facepalm

smh @ 78% from the freethrow

scust @ this old ass negga only having 3 apg that year. My negga you old af, pass the ball more with yo 23% shootin asss
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Solid Snake]

95-96 Jordan is better than ANY version of Kobe.

[game3524]

2007-08 Kobe is better then 96-98 Jordan.....of course 87-93 MJ blows any version of Bryant out the building.

[gengiskhan]

95-96 Jordan is better than ANY version of Kobe.

This.

One thing Kobe'tards will never admit.

Kobe seriously LACKS the ultimate mastery of the Game. Kobe can copy some of MJ but that just dont mean he can be that great without ultimate mastery of inside game & outside game & triangle offense.

Magic competely Mastered the Art of PG position & expanded it.

Bird was ultimate Master as positioning himself on the court & play without Bball in his hand.

Kobe is a cheaper immitator at best.

[gengiskhan]

2007-08 Kobe is better then 96-98 Jordan.....of course 87-93 MJ blows any version of Bryant out the building.

Yet, '08 Kobe FAILED to win Finals MVP & Pierce whoopped his ass.
Yet, '08 Kobe FAILED to win scoring titles.

1996 MJ swept NBA MVP that year.
1998 MJ swept NBA MVP again.
& 3 more scoring titles.

[game3524]

This.

One thing Kobe'tards will never admit.

Kobe seriously LACKS the ultimate mastery of the Game. Kobe can copy some of MJ but that just dont mean he can be that great without ultimate mastery of inside game & outside game & triangle offense.

Magic competely Mastered the Art of PG position & expanded it.

Bird was ultimate Master as positioning himself on the court & play without Bball in his hand.

Kobe is a cheaper immitator at best.


Not really.

The only thing that separates Bryant from Jordan is athleticism. Jordan was a freakish athlete and had cat quickness, which helped him get higher percentage shots.

[PowerGlove]

It's pretty damn sad that people try to disparage Kobe's name even though he's a legend himself, just to prop up Jordan. It is uber close, it can go either way. You cant tell me that 2010 Kobe lighting up the suns didnt remind you of MJ.

[kaiiu]

It's pretty damn sad that people try to disparage Kobe's name even though he's a legend himself, just to prop up Jordan. It is uber close, it can go either way. You cant tell me that 2010 Kobe lighting up the suns didnt remind you of MJ.
this. I hate Jordan Stans. Not even a huge Kobe fan I just hate those phaggets

[Samurai Swoosh]

gengiskhan ... you're being an ass clown. 2008 - 2010 Kobe is very much in the debate with 1996 - 1998 Jordan. You acting like there is no case to be made makes you a pathetic homer. Not realizing this comparison alone proves MJ's greatness and superiority. Kobe's absolute 3 best and most accomplished years in his prime are DEBATABLE at being better than MJ in the twighlight of his career from 33 - 35 years old. SMH ... what an idiot.

[magnax1]

It's pretty damn sad that people try to disparage Kobe's name even though he's a legend himself, just to prop up Jordan. It is uber close, it can go either way. You cant tell me that 2010 Kobe lighting up the suns didnt remind you of MJ.
Yeah. When you get called both a Kobe hater and Kobe Homer all the time is when you know you're right, lol.

[game3524]

Yet, '08 Kobe FAILED to win Finals MVP & Pierce whoopped his ass.
Yet, '08 Kobe FAILED to win scoring titles.

1996 MJ swept NBA MVP that year.
1998 MJ swept NBA MVP again.
& 3 more scoring titles.

By that line of reasoning, 2010 Kobe was better then 2010 Lebron. Kobe in 2008 was at or close to his peak, He was a better defender then Jordan at that point, and their offensive games was pretty much a wash.

Also, who gives a shit about scoring titles, Kobe had much better offensive support in 2008, he didn't need to win the award and if he wanted to he could have averaged 30-32 ppg.

[andgar923]

This.

One thing Kobe'tards will never admit.

Kobe seriously LACKS the ultimate mastery of the Game. Kobe can copy some of MJ but that just dont mean he can be that great without ultimate mastery of inside game & outside game & triangle offense.

Magic competely Mastered the Art of PG position & expanded it.

Bird was ultimate Master as positioning himself on the court & play without Bball in his hand.

Kobe is a cheaper immitator at best.

I have defended and praised Kobe for his willingness to dare aspire at being better than MJ. I have defended and praised Kobe time and time again when comparing Bron and others to him. I have given him the highest compliment any player can get when I state that he's the closest to MJ as far as 'skills set'.

But that's all Kobe is= Jordan 'lite'

He has some of MJ's skills, but not as polished and at the same level of 'consistency'. If MJ is a 9.5 in a certain skill, Kobe is an 8 (depending on what we're talking about).

But where Kobe lacks the most (and this is significant) is in the IQ department.

Lawdy is he far behind in this department.

MJ is clearly a 10, Kobe is a 5.

And this takes away from all of the other aspects in his game. MJ wasn't perfect, but he knew how to maximize his strengths while not letting his opponents exploit his weaknesses. Kobe on the other hand is the opposite. There's a huge reason why his stats aren't as impressive as MJ's (although impressive on their own right), and that's because he has never come close to MJ's overall mastery of the game.

There's an interview with MJ where he states that physically, Wade, Bron and Kobe would beat him. But when it comes to the mental aspects, it's not even close.... and he's right.

Some cats here are too young or too dumb (sorry, but it's true) to understand this very important aspect. And that's what I believe takes Kobe notches down from even being equal to MJ, let alone better.

[gengiskhan]

2010 Kobe was better then 2010 Lebron

Lebron was clearly better in 2010. Lebron stats were suprior to kobe. & Lebron won NBA MVP over kobe. BTW, you should know kobe's finals performance in 2010 against celtics. I dont need to remind you.


Kobe in 2008 was at or close to his peak, He was a better defender then Jordan at that point.

Kobe was never a better defender than MJ till 1998. Infact, it was never close. MJ was alltime great defender. Kobe is a good solid defender. MJ is multiple times steals leader, blockshots leader by Guard etc etc. too much ownage. Only pippen, payton & rodman can be compared with MJ.

Kobe is a good solid perimeter defender. Never in the league of MJ. HINT: Kobe stuggles to finish in Top 5 steals list.


Also, who gives a shit about scoring titles, Kobe had much better offensive support in 2008

Kobe cannot win scoring title without being a complete shot jocker. we all know that. So Better '08 kobe supporting cast got him the NBA MVP. Yet, Kobe with better supporting cast got his arse whipped by pierce in the Finals.

You answered the original Question.

No Kobe version is Equal to or Better than 1984-1998 MJ. NONE.



This

[andgar923]

gengiskhan ... you're being an ass clown. 2008 - 2010 Kobe is very much in the debate with 1996 - 1998 Jordan. You acting like there is no case to be made makes you a pathetic homer. Not realizing this comparison alone proves MJ's greatness and superiority. Kobe's absolute 3 best and most accomplished years in his prime are DEBATABLE at being better than MJ in the twighlight of his career from 33 - 35 years old. SMH ... what an idiot.

If one looks solely at the stats then maybe a case can be made.

But the stats only tell part of the picture.

Kobe has never been on the same level that MJ has, period. And it's deeper than just stats, skills set, etc.etc.

One thing to remember is, when Kobe was in his supposed prime, he was never the athlete MJ was. He didn't have the post up game that he has now, he wasn't as good a leader (improved yes, but never the leader he is now... and even today he aint on MJ's level), and he has never been (still isn't) close to having MJ's IQ.

Mj is regarded as the GOAT by the majority because he was the sum of all things that one can think of. He was a frankenstein of a player, created from all aspects one would come up with to make the ideal player. Kobe has some of them but always lacks some of them at any given point in time.

[97 bulls]

I definately would take 96-98 MJ over Bryant. I firmly believe that jordan at this stage was a complete and unstopable basketball player. He obviously wasn't quite the athlete he was in the begining of his career, but he learned how to utilize the talents of the rest of his team. Which made him much more unguardable.

Kobe still hasn't evolved to this point. It seemes to me that he was going to do it in the beginning of the season when he played within the flow of the game. And the lakers were unstopable. But once talk began that pau gasol was the early favorite for mvp, it seemed kobe took it on himslef to reassert his role on the team and thus hurt the lakers. His immaturity in this respect is what hurts his case over jordan

[game3524]

Oh please, you Jordan stans are getting ridiculous. The difference between Kobe and Jordan is not basketball IQ, it is athleticism and physical attributes . Jordan WAS a freakish athlete and was cat quick. Kobe is a great athlete himself, but he isn't on Jordan's level that department.

Phil has even said that Bryant is more skilled then Jordan, but MJ had the advantage when it came to the physical attributes(Bigger hands, stronger upper body).

[gengiskhan]

gengiskhan ... you're being an ass clown. 2008 - 2010 Kobe is very much in the debate with 1996 - 1998 Jordan. You acting like there is no case to be made makes you a pathetic homer. Not realizing this comparison alone proves MJ's greatness and superiority. Kobe's absolute 3 best and most accomplished years in his prime are DEBATABLE at being better than MJ in the twighlight of his career from 33 - 35 years old. SMH ... what an idiot.

There is no real case.

in all honesty.

Kobe just FAILED to sweep MVP in single season. MJ did it TWICE.

Kobe FAILED to lead any catagory in '08-'10. MJ did it THRICE & continued to be Playoff leader as well in 1996-1998.

If MJs 1996 finals MVP win is WEAK. So is Kobe's '10 Finals MVP over celtics.

MJ 1996-1998 became an unltimate master of the Game, He expanded it, reinvented it so that it can be copied by or SG like Kobe.

'08-'10 Kobe despite playing with dominant big men in his team cannot EQUAL MJ.

Besides Orlando finals, Kobe's Finals stats are average considering the rules he played under.

[kaiiu]

Mostly All Of These Jordan Stans Come From Bruce Blitz Cult.

Samurai Swoosh Is The Only One Who Isnt Brainwashed

[game3524]

Lebron was clearly better in 2010. Lebron stats were suprior to kobe. & Lebron won NBA MVP over kobe. BTW, you should know kobe's finals performance in 2010 against celtics. I dont need to remind you.



Kobe was never a better defender than MJ till 1998. Infact, it was never close. MJ was alltime great defender. Kobe is a good solid defender. MJ is multiple times steals leader, blockshots leader by Guard etc etc. too much ownage. Only pippen, payton & rodman can be compared with MJ.

Kobe is a good solid perimeter defender. Never in the league of MJ. HINT: Kobe stuggles to finish in Top 5 steals list.



Kobe cannot win scoring title without being a complete shot jocker. we all know that. So Better '08 kobe supporting cast got him the NBA MVP. Yet, Kobe with better supporting cast got his arse whipped by pierce in the Finals.

You answered the original Question.

No Kobe version is Equal to or Better than 1984-1998 MJ. NONE.



This

1. I agree that Bron was better then Bryant in 2010, my point in using him as an example was to point out the stupidity of taking 96-98 Jordan over 2008 Bryant duo to team success.

2. Bryant was a better defender in 2008 then Jordan was in 96-98, 2008 was one of Kobe's best defensive years, in fact his best year since the 3-peat days. Jordan still had the smarts, but Bryant was the better athlete at that point which gives him the edge.

3. Jordan averaged 22 shots per a game from 96-98, Bryant averaged 20 shots per a game. Kobe could have one the scoring title in 2008 on the same amount of shots MJ took from 96-98 if he wanted to, but he dialed it back to fit in more with the team.

Jordan is the greatest player of all-time, no question about it. But some of you need to get his dick out of your mouth.

[andgar923]

Oh please, you Jordan stans are getting ridiculous. The difference between Kobe and Jordan is not basketball IQ, it is athleticism and physical attributes . Jordan WAS a freakish athlete and was cat quick. Kobe is a great athlete himself, but he isn't on Jordan's level that department.

Phil has even said that Bryant is more skilled then Jordan, but MJ had the advantage when it came to the physical attributes(Bigger hands, stronger upper body).

You clearly don't understand basketball.

MJ isn't MJ because he was a freakish athlete. Yes, it was 'a' factor, but not THE factor. If Mj just had skills and athleticism he would've still been great, but not as great legendary as he became. MJ became legendary because he had a very high basketball IQ. He knew how to use his gifts to his advantage, he knew how to exploit his defenders, he knew how to control the game in every aspect etc.etc.

During a TNT tribute, Kenny and Magic alluded to this.

His drive, athleticism, skills, can all very well be crippled if he doesn't have the high IQ that he has. It's a very underrated aspect of one's game, but also very essential.

I can go on the court and still be very effective against younger competition even tho I'm older and haven't played the game in a decade. Because my iq on the court will allow me to do that, even tho my athleticism has faded into obscurity. Kobe till this day makes rookie mistakes, at times I just :facepalm at him.

[AlphaWolf24]

I have defended and praised Kobe for his willingness to dare aspire at being better than MJ. I have defended and praised Kobe time and time again when comparing Bron and others to him. I have given him the highest compliment any player can get when I state that he's the closest to MJ as far as 'skills set'.

But that's all Kobe is= Jordan 'lite'

He has some of MJ's skills, but not as polished and at the same level of 'consistency'. If MJ is a 9.5 in a certain skill, Kobe is an 8 (depending on what we're talking about).

But where Kobe lacks the most (and this is significant) is in the IQ department.

Lawdy is he far behind in this department.

MJ is clearly a 10, Kobe is a 5.

And this takes away from all of the other aspects in his game. MJ wasn't perfect, but he knew how to maximize his strengths while not letting his opponents exploit his weaknesses. Kobe on the other hand is the opposite. There's a huge reason why his stats aren't as impressive as MJ's (although impressive on their own right), and that's because he has never come close to MJ's overall mastery of the game.

There's an interview with MJ where he states that physically, Wade, Bron and Kobe would beat him. But when it comes to the mental aspects, it's not even close.... and he's right.

Some cats here are too young or too dumb (sorry, but it's true) to understand this very important aspect. And that's what I believe takes Kobe notches down from even being equal to MJ, let alone better.


yet with all your posturing Kobe and MJ are similir players in similiar roles with similiar averages...Kobe as a starter from ages of 21 - 31 are 28.3PPG 6REB 5AST....nearly identical to MJ....Championship caliber are nearly Identical...

I mean marginal differences aside Kobe is playing in a tougher era....and doing the same things MJ did.....by tweaking MJ's style and adding his own flavor....


I still feel Kobe has alot of basketball left...and skillwise Kobe is 2nd to No one....No One.

[game3524]

I definately would take 96-98 MJ over Bryant. I firmly believe that jordan at this stage was a complete and unstopable basketball player. He obviously wasn't quite the athlete he was in the begining of his career, but he learned how to utilize the talents of the rest of his team. Which made him much more unguardable.

Kobe still hasn't evolved to this point. It seemes to me that he was going to do it in the beginning of the season when he played within the flow of the game. And the lakers were unstopable. But once talk began that pau gasol was the early favorite for mvp, it seemed kobe took it on himslef to reassert his role on the team and thus hurt the lakers. His immaturity in this respect is what hurts his case over jordan

What is this bullshit?:roll:

08-10 Kobe has averaged less shots a game then 96-98 Jordan. Also LA lost because they can't guard a chair on the perimeter and didn't close out on the shooters, Kobe Bryant's shot selection was the least of their problems this year.

[andgar923]

1. I agree that Bron was better then Bryant in 2010, my point in using him as an example was to point out the stupidity of taking 96-98 Jordan over 2008 Bryant duo to team success.

2. Bryant was a better defender in 2008 then Jordan was in 96-98, 2008 was one of Kobe's best defensive years, in fact his best year since the 3-peat days. Jordan still had the smarts, but Bryant was the better athlete at that point which gives him the edge.

3. Jordan averaged 22 shots per a game from 96-98, Bryant averaged 20 shots per a game. Kobe could have one the scoring title in 2008 on the same amount of shots MJ took from 96-98 if he wanted to, but he dialed it back to fit in more with the team.

Jordan is the greatest player of all-time, no question about it. But some of you need to get his dick out of your mouth.

Kobe has never been better than MJ defensively.... NEVER.

Shit... Wizards MJ is as good as 'prime' Kobe defensively.

Seriously, go back and watch games. MJ would use angles and position to cut off his opponent, box out, disrupt the offensive flow of his opponents, etc.etc. Sure he'd get beat from time to time, but so does/did Kobe, and yet Kobe still made mistakes on defense. MJ didn't make mistakes on defense at this point, if he got beat it was because he was slower, not because he read or played his opponent the wrong way. I still see Kobe playing bad defense usually selecting the wrong way to play a high screen, using the wrong angles to guard somebody, pouting instead of getting back on defense, gambling even tho he doesn't have the same athleticism etc.etc.

[andgar923]

yet with all your posturing Kobe and MJ are similir players in similiar roles with similiar averages...Kobe as a starter from ages of 21 - 31 are 28.3PPG 6REB 5AST....nearly identical to MJ....Championship caliber are nearly Identical...

I mean marginal differences aside Kobe is playing in a tougher era....and doing the same things MJ did.....by tweaking MJ's style and adding his own flavor....


I still feel Kobe has alot of basketball left...and skillwise Kobe is 2nd to No one....No One.

Not really.

[PowerGlove]

Kobe has never been better than MJ defensively.... NEVER.

Shit... Wizards MJ is as good as 'prime' Kobe defensively.

Seriously, go back and watch games. MJ would use angles and position to cut off his opponent, box out, disrupt the offensive flow of his opponents, etc.etc. Sure he'd get beat from time to time, but so does/did Kobe, and yet Kobe still made mistakes on defense. MJ didn't make mistakes on defense at this point, if he got beat it was because he was slower, not because he read or played his opponent the wrong way. I still see Kobe playing bad defense usually selecting the wrong way to play a high screen, using the wrong angles to guard somebody, pouting instead of getting back on defense, gambling even tho he doesn't have the same athleticism etc.etc.
:roll:

[Ikill]

yet with all your posturing Kobe and MJ are similir players in similiar roles with similiar averages...Kobe as a starter from ages of 21 - 31 are 28.3PPG 6REB 5AST....nearly identical to MJ....Championship caliber are nearly Identical...

I mean marginal differences aside Kobe is playing in a tougher era....and doing the same things MJ did.....by tweaking MJ's style and adding his own flavor....


I still feel Kobe has alot of basketball left...and skillwise Kobe is 2nd to No one....No One.
Why are you not including Kobe as a 20 year old and 32 year ol he started than too. That would bring him to 13 years the same number of years Jordan played with the Bulls. What are Jordans numbers with the Bulls and Kobes numbers from 20-32 compare those numbers.

[game3524]

You clearly don't understand basketball.

MJ isn't MJ because he was a freakish athlete. Yes, it was 'a' factor, but not THE factor. If Mj just had skills and athleticism he would've still been great, but not as great legendary as he became. MJ became legendary because he had a very high basketball IQ. He knew how to use his gifts to his advantage, he knew how to exploit his defenders, he knew how to control the game in every aspect etc.etc.

During a TNT tribute, Kenny and Magic alluded to this.

His drive, athleticism, skills, can all very well be crippled if he doesn't have the high IQ that he has. It's a very underrated aspect of one's game, but also very essential.

I can go on the court and still be very effective against younger competition even tho I'm older and haven't played the game in a decade. Because my iq on the court will allow me to do that, even tho my athleticism has faded into obscurity. Kobe till this day makes rookie mistakes, at times I just :facepalm at him.

No, I understand basketball. You guys just want to turn Jordan into some mythical figure. Both Bryant and Jordan have high b-ball IQ, the difference is Jordan was a much better athlete then Bryant, which allowed him to get higher percentage shots.

[miles berg]

Kobe, at his absolute peak, was roughly 65%-75% as good as any version of Jordan from '84 to '98.

This is as silly as comparing Dirk to Bird.

[AlphaWolf24]

Not really.


yes...I watched both players whole career....Kobe skillwise is 2nd to no one.

[game3524]

Kobe has never been better than MJ defensively.... NEVER.

Shit... Wizards MJ is as good as 'prime' Kobe defensively.

Seriously, go back and watch games. MJ would use angles and position to cut off his opponent, box out, disrupt the offensive flow of his opponents, etc.etc. Sure he'd get beat from time to time, but so does/did Kobe, and yet Kobe still made mistakes on defense. MJ didn't make mistakes on defense at this point, if he got beat it was because he was slower, not because he read or played his opponent the wrong way. I still see Kobe playing bad defense usually selecting the wrong way to play a high screen, using the wrong angles to guard somebody, pouting instead of getting back on defense, gambling even tho he doesn't have the same athleticism etc.etc.

Nothin more needs to be said.:roll:

[game3524]

yes...I watched both players whole career....Kobe skillwise is 2nd to no one.

Yeah, and Phil would agree with you.

[Indian guy]

It's a close comparison, but MJ gets the edge on virtue of significantly better regular season production alone. I do think, overall, Kobe's about 90-95% the player MJ was.

[magnax1]

Kobe, at his absolute peak, was roughly 65%-75% as good as any version of Jordan from '84 to '98.

This is as silly as comparing Dirk to Bird.
Jordan wasn't the same player as 88-93 Jordan in 96-98. He wasn't nearly as good.

[game3524]

Kobe, at his absolute peak, was roughly 65%-75% as good as any version of Jordan from '84 to '98.

This is as silly as comparing Dirk to Bird.

No what is silly is people who think past his prime Jordan 96-98 was better then peak Kobe Bryant 2008.

[AlphaWolf24]

Why are you not including Kobe as a 20 year old and 32 year ol he started than too. That would bring him to 13 years the same number of years Jordan played with the Bulls. What are Jordans numbers with the Bulls and Kobes numbers from 20-32 compare those numbers.


roughly 28PPG 6REB 5AST....Kobe at 32 has 5 Championships and 1 Losing season:confusedshrug:

[miles berg]

No what is silly is people who think past his prime Jordan 96-98 was better then peak Kobe Bryant 2008.

Much better player than Kobe in 2008.

Anyone that can't see that is obviously bias.

Not worth arguing, anyone that isnt bias knows this already.

[AlphaWolf24]

Yeah, and Phil would agree with you.


even Jordan himself said Kobe is a more advanced player skilwise....:confusedshrug:

[DuMa]

What is this bullshit?:roll:

08-10 Kobe has averaged less shots a game then 96-98 Jordan. Also LA lost because they can't guard a chair on the perimeter and didn't close out on the shooters, Kobe Bryant's shot selection was the least of their problems this year.

how can perimeter defense be a problem when kobe is first team all-d!

[AlphaWolf24]

Much better player than Kobe in 2008.

Anyone that can't see that is obviously bias.

Not worth arguing, anyone that isnt bias knows this already.


"much better"....and your talking about Bias????

both comparable ...similar players in similar roles ..
IMO Kobe is a better allaround player....


lol @ Bias

[game3524]

Much better player than Kobe in 2008.

Anyone that can't see that is obviously bias.

Not worth arguing, anyone that isnt bias knows this already.

No, he wasn't.

2008 Kobe was a better defender then 96-98 Jordan, and their offensive games were pretty much a wash. And what really tilts things in Bryant's corner was his athleticism at that point was better then mid-late 90's Jordan.

I love MJ, and think he is the best player of all-time. But this stupid revisionism of his latter stages of his career is hilarious.

[game3524]

how can perimeter defense be a problem when kobe is first team all-d!

Kobe sucked on defense this year, and Fisher was more of the weak link anyway.

[andgar923]

No, I understand basketball. You guys just want to turn Jordan into some mythical figure. Both Bryant and Jordan have high b-ball IQ, the difference is Jordan was a much better athlete then Bryant, which allowed him to get higher percentage shots.

And the fact that MJ didn't settle or force as many shots has anything to do with it?

MJ has credited Dean Smith into transforming him into the player he became endlessly, this is where he learned to play smart and make the proper decisions. Kenny Smith alluded to this as well.

How many great athletes have we seen in the league with great potential come and go, but their iq kills their chances of being great (or good at all in some cases).

Kobe has a good IQ, but compared to most of the greats and to MJ it falls very short.

[game3524]

And the fact that MJ didn't settle or force as many shots has anything to do with it?

MJ has credited Dean Smith into transforming him into the player he became endlessly, this is where he learned to play smart and make the proper decisions. Kenny Smith alluded to this as well.

How many great athletes have we seen in the league with great potential come and go, but their iq kills their chances of being great (or good at all in some cases).

Kobe has a good IQ, but compared to most of the greats and to MJ it falls very short.


Bryant has the range to hit those tough shots. MJ as great as he was, never had Kobe's range. Also prime MJ was a better athlete then Bryant ever was, which allowed him to get to his spots and take much higher percentage shots.

[rodman91]

Peak Kobe has won 2 scoring titles
96-98 MJ has won 3 scoring titles . Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has won 1 NBA MVP.
96-98 MJ has won 2 NBA MVPs. Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has won 2 Finals MVPs
96-98 MJ has won 3 Finals MVPs. Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has LOST 1 NBA Finals series despite being favorites.
96-98 MJ has NOT lost any NBA Finals series despite being underdog (1998). Advantage MJ

Peak Kobe has failed to sweep MVP in a year.
96-98 MJ has won NBA MVP + Finals MVP TWICE. Advantage MJ

are you faking Blind. You still cannot seperate who is better. :facepalm

Kobe won scoring titles in 06&07. Not 08-10.

[andgar923]

Bryant has the range to hit those tough shots. MJ as great as he was, never had Kobe's range. Also prime MJ was a better athlete then Bryant ever was, which allowed him to get to his spots and take much higher percentage shots.

Even then.

Although I agree that MJ's athleticism gave him an advantage, how would you describe the following.

As Kobe's athleticism eroded, he has taken less 3pt shots and has picked his spots on the court to become an even deadlier offensive player. His post up game and mid range shots have also increased as he's taken less 3pt shots.

On the flip side, even as a Wizard MJ was getting clear looks and penetrating even tho his athleticism was clearly gone. He could no longer just blow or jump over you, he used his footwork and off the ball movement more than ever.

That's just a few examples to illustrate my point.

Again... I NEVER stated that what made MJ was primarily his IQ. I just used it as an example to show that it is what separated MJ from Kobe the most.

[game3524]

Even then.

Although I agree that MJ's athleticism gave him an advantage, how would you describe the following.

As Kobe's athleticism eroded, he has taken less 3pt shots and has picked his spots on the court to become an even deadlier offensive player. His post up game and mid range shots have also increased as he's taken less 3pt shots.

On the flip side, even as a Wizard MJ was getting clear looks and penetrating even tho his athleticism was clearly gone. He could no longer just blow or jump over you, he used his footwork and off the ball movement more than ever.

That's just a few examples to illustrate my point.

Again... I NEVER stated that what made MJ was primarily his IQ. I just used it as an example to show that it is what separated MJ from Kobe the most.


I honestly don't see the point you are trying to illustrate. So what, both guys changed their game to offset their aging.

[gengiskhan]

No what is silly is people who think past his prime Jordan 96-98 was better then peak Kobe Bryant 2008.

Have you lost your mind?

If you did please file a police complaint!

I just gave you from stats, individual accolades, efficiency how 1995-1998 MJ is simply Better than Peak Kobe Bryant.

You just seem to simply ignore it & deny it.

than I even went explaining why Kobe lost '08 NBA finals. you ignore that as well.

funny thing with Kobe stans:

Just ignore MJ stats
Just ignore MJs individual accolades
Just ignore MJs leadership, efficiency
Just ignore MJs ultimate mastery of mid range game, ouside & inside game, triagle offense.

Just shouting off the roof "Kobe is the best Kobe is the best Kobe is the best!" aint gonna make him better than MJ.

Kobe offensively or defensively Is, was, will be NEVER at same level as 1984-1998 MJ.

Every fact has gone against him so far.

[Warriors fan]

i bet Dmavs is mad i made a better thread :banana:

[Heavincent]

i bet Dmavs is mad i made a better thread :banana:

You are DMAVS. You're not fooling anybody.

[Bladers]

I have defended and praised Kobe for his willingness to dare aspire at being better than MJ. I have defended and praised Kobe time and time again when comparing Bron and others to him. I have given him the highest compliment any player can get when I state that he's the closest to MJ as far as 'skills set'.

But that's all Kobe is= Jordan 'lite'

He has some of MJ's skills, but not as polished and at the same level of 'consistency'. If MJ is a 9.5 in a certain skill, Kobe is an 8 (depending on what we're talking about).

But where Kobe lacks the most (and this is significant) is in the IQ department.

Lawdy is he far behind in this department.

MJ is clearly a 10, Kobe is a 5.

And this takes away from all of the other aspects in his game. MJ wasn't perfect, but he knew how to maximize his strengths while not letting his opponents exploit his weaknesses. Kobe on the other hand is the opposite. There's a huge reason why his stats aren't as impressive as MJ's (although impressive on their own right), and that's because he has never come close to MJ's overall mastery of the game.

There's an interview with MJ where he states that physically, Wade, Bron and Kobe would beat him. But when it comes to the mental aspects, it's not even close.... and he's right.

Some cats here are too young or too dumb (sorry, but it's true) to understand this very important aspect. And that's what I believe takes Kobe notches down from even being equal to MJ, let alone better.

Is that why Phil said that Kobe has better basketball skills than Jordan? Ouch... :roll:

[Bladers]

Guys, Dmavs/Gino = Warriors fan & gengiskhan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6173972)

Stop being so easily hoodwinked.

[Warriors fan]

You are DMAVS. You're not fooling anybody.
:lol at dis man

[gengiskhan]

And the fact that MJ didn't settle or force as many shots has anything to do with it?

MJ has credited Dean Smith into transforming him into the player he became endlessly, this is where he learned to play smart and make the proper decisions. Kenny Smith alluded to this as well.

How many great athletes have we seen in the league with great potential come and go, but their iq kills their chances of being great (or good at all in some cases).

Kobe has a good IQ, but compared to most of the greats and to MJ it falls very short.

Dead on

Kobe missing NCAA has costed him. Kobe'tards just dont realise it.

Kobe would've been lot more efficient as Pro has he finished atleast 2 yrs of NCAA at UNC or Duke.

My point is peak kobe will still get 35ppg in that year. but with lot less shot jocking and taking lesser FG attempts resulting in MVP in weaker league

Kobe would've also won 2-3 MVP like Magic & Bird instead of 1. Kobe would've won his FIRST Finals MVP in 2004 instead of 2009.

Kobe's decent IQ & average understanding of the game is killing him & Lakers, He just doesnt know when to shoot or when to pass most of the time.

[Warriors fan]

Guys, Dmavs/Gino = Warriors fan & gengiskhan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6173972)

Stop being so easily hoodwinked.
what up ******

[Anaximandro1]

96-98 Jordan vs 08-10 Kobe?

On paper looks pretty even,

Playoffs

96 Jordan 30.7 pts (45.9 %),4.9 rb,4.1 as
97 Jordan 31.1 pts (45.6 %),7.9 rb,4.8 as
98 Jordan 32.4 pts (46.2 %),5.1 rb,3.5 as

08 Kobe 30.1 pts (47.9 %),5.7 rb,5.6 as
09 Kobe 30.2 pts (45.7%),5.3 rb,5.5 as
10 Kobe 29.2 pts (45.8%),6 rb,5.5 as


but once you dig deeper Jordan's wins easily.

Jordan's Playoff runs

1996 1997 1998

PTS FG % PTS FG % PTS FG%
Jordan 30.7 45.9 31.1 45.6 32.4 46.2
Bulls 97.4 44.3 92.5 43.2 93.1 44.5
Jordan's Share 31.5% 33.6% 34.8%

League Avg 93.7 45.5 94.0 44.4 91.2 44.9

Kobe's Playoff runs

2008 2009 2010

PTS FG % PTS FG % PTS FG%
Kobe 30.1 47.9 30.2 45.7 29.2 45.8
Lakers 102.4 46.8 102.4 46.5 101.1 46.0
Kobe's Share 29.4% 29.5% 28.9%

League Avg 94.9 44.4 96.7 45.1 97.5 45.3

In short:late 90's defense was tougher than today,plus Jordan did more (three-peat) with less.

[winwin]

TPOLS claims that MJ would have had no chance to replace Kobe from 08 to 10 and make 3 straight finals. He claims at most he makes 2 finals and wins 1 title.

Agree or disagree?

Also, does 98 Jordan get swept by the Mavs replacing Kobe this year?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckkLI7U8Btg

why creating the exact thread and thread title of DMAVS?

http://i.imgur.com/m6qTX.png (http://imgur.com/m6qTX)

or you're one of his brothers? or you're him and forgot about it?

i'm confused :hammerhead:

[Warriors fan]

why creating the exact thread and thread title of DMAVS?

http://i.imgur.com/m6qTX.png (http://imgur.com/m6qTX)

or you're one of his brothers? or you're him and forgot about it?

i'm confused :hammerhead:
I thought it was a good topic so i made it and people actually responded to mine. No i'm not him or his brother

[The-Legend-24]

Kobe has never been better than MJ defensively.... NEVER.

Shit... Wizards MJ is as good as 'prime' Kobe defensively.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/082009/1249287503_ice_cube.gif

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

I don't get the whole "Kobe's lack of basketball IQ" argument or "MJ had such great shot selection"

It wasn't that Jordan had the greatest shot selection ever, he was just a great finisher and scorer. His FG% was worse during the 2nd three peat and in the 2000s, did his IQ suddenly drop off?

He was never a jump shooter. He was a bonafide slasher who had an unguardable first step. MJ used to go 1 on 5, take quick shots, etc but that wasn't always a bad shot for him because he could make it.

FG% isn't an indicator of IQ. Besides it isn't like 45% shooting for a perimeter player who primarily shoots jumpers is low.

[magnax1]

I don't get the whole "Kobe's lack of basketball IQ" argument or "MJ had such great shot selection"

It wasn't that Jordan had the greatest shot selection ever, he was just a great finisher and scorer. His FG% was worse during the 2nd three peat and in the 2000s, did his IQ suddenly drop off?

He was never a jump shooter. He was a bonafide slasher who had an unguardable first step. MJ used to go 1 on 5, take quick shots, etc but that wasn't always a bad shot for him because he could make it.

FG% isn't an indicator of IQ. Besides it isn't like 45% shooting for a perimeter player who primarily shoots jumpers is low.
What's funny about that argument is that Kobe pretty consistently was more efficient in the playoffs. He shot about 57% TS% every year from 08-10 in the playoffs, where Jordan shot 56%, 52%, and 55% in 96, 97, and 98 in the playoffs.

[guy]

I don't get the whole "Kobe's lack of basketball IQ" argument or "MJ had such great shot selection"

It wasn't that Jordan had the greatest shot selection ever, he was just a great finisher and scorer. His FG% was worse during the 2nd three peat and in the 2000s, did his IQ suddenly drop off?

He was never a jump shooter. He was a bonafide slasher who had an unguardable first step. MJ used to go 1 on 5, take quick shots, etc but that wasn't always a bad shot for him because he could make it.

FG% isn't an indicator of IQ. Besides it isn't like 45% shooting for a perimeter player who primarily shoots jumpers is low.

Jordan was almost always a great jumpshooter and had a great postgame. People seem to think he didn't just cause he didn't use it as much when he was younger. He didn't need to because of his great athleticism and finishing ability. Kobe does have significantly worse shot selection then Jordan. You won't ever find Jordan taking a fadeaway three-pointer with a man all over him with 10 seconds still left on the clock.

Its hilarious for anyone to think ANY version of Kobe was better then Jordan in 96 and 97. I just have to assume alot of you are either biased or weren't watching at the time. And I don't think any version was better then 98 Jordan. There's no way Kobe leads a team to over 60+ wins with his best teammate sidelined for half the season or will an old team like that to a championship like Jordan.

[game3524]

Jordan was almost always a great jumpshooter and had a great postgame. People seem to think he didn't just cause he didn't use it as much when he was younger. He didn't need to because of his great athleticism and finishing ability. Kobe does have significantly worse shot selection then Jordan. You won't ever find Jordan taking a fadeaway three-pointer with a man all over him with 10 seconds still left on the clock.

Its hilarious for anyone to think ANY version of Kobe was better then Jordan in 96 and 97. I just have to assume alot of you are either biased or weren't watching at the time. And I don't think any version was better then 98 Jordan. There's no way Kobe leads a team to over 60+ wins with his best teammate sidelined for half the season or will an old team like that to a championship like Jordan.

People were watching, the problem is Jordan stains are overrating him. He is the best player of all-time, but peak Kobe was better then mid-late 90's Jordan.

[guy]

People were watching, the problem is Jordan stains are overrating him. He is the best player of all-time, but peak Kobe was better then mid-late 90's Jordan.

Really? The guy that led a team to 72 and 69 wins, and 62 wins without his best teammate, and to a three-peat? You think Jordan blows a 3-1 lead and barely even shoots in a game 7? You think Jordan lets his team blow a 24-point lead at home in the freaking Finals when they are down 2-1? You think Jordan lets his team get blown out by 40 in the elimination game of the Finals? You think Jordan lets his team get pushed to 7 games by a team that is missing its 2 best players? You think the Lakers would've had the problems they had with teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Hornets with Jordan instead of Kobe? Get real.

[andgar923]

Really? The guy that led a team to 72 and 69 wins, and 62 wins without his best teammate, and to a three-peat? You think Jordan blows a 3-1 lead and barely even shoots in a game 7? You think Jordan lets his team blow a 24-point lead at home in the freaking Finals when they are down 2-1? You think Jordan lets his team get blown out by 40 in the elimination game of the Finals? You think Jordan lets his team get pushed to 7 games by a team that is missing its 2 best players? You think the Lakers would've had the problems they had with teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Hornets with Jordan instead of Kobe? Get real.

of course they do.

Because if MJ could do what he did, it's a no brainer that Kobe the 2nd greatest 2 guard of all time could as well.... duh!

[game3524]

Really? The guy that led a team to 72 and 69 wins, and 62 wins without his best teammate, and to a three-peat? You think Jordan blows a 3-1 lead and barely even shoots in a game 7? You think Jordan lets his team blow a 24-point lead at home in the freaking Finals when they are down 2-1? You think Jordan lets his team get blown out by 40 in the elimination game of the Finals? You think Jordan lets his team get pushed to 7 games by a team that is missing its 2 best players? You think the Lakers would've had the problems they had with teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Hornets with Jordan instead of Kobe? Get real.

See this is what I am talking about, you guys treat Jordan as if he was god. He is the best player of all-time, but he is slowly becoming the Reagan of basketball, where their is a ton revisionism.

Also those Bulls teams racked up a ton of wins in a water down league. Hell, the early 90's team was much better then the late 90's teams.

[DMAVS41]

Really? The guy that led a team to 72 and 69 wins, and 62 wins without his best teammate, and to a three-peat? You think Jordan blows a 3-1 lead and barely even shoots in a game 7? You think Jordan lets his team blow a 24-point lead at home in the freaking Finals when they are down 2-1? You think Jordan lets his team get blown out by 40 in the elimination game of the Finals? You think Jordan lets his team get pushed to 7 games by a team that is missing its 2 best players? You think the Lakers would've had the problems they had with teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Hornets with Jordan instead of Kobe? Get real.

Yep. The idea that 96 Jordan replacing 08 Kobe gets outplayed by Paul Pierce in the Finals just cracks me up.

There is absolutely no evidence that MJ would do worse than Kobe. The idea that MJ would have no chance to make 3 finals and would win 1 title at most is just beyond stupid.

I hope people realize what they are saying. Everyone seems to think that the 08 finals weren't close. Actually, if the Lakers don't have an epic collapse in game 4, they have a good chance to send the series back to Boston up 3-2. In that game? Kobe had 17 points on 6 of 19 shooting. Somehow I don't think Jordan does that.

[game3524]

Yep. The idea that 96 Jordan replacing 08 Kobe gets outplayed by Paul Pierce in the Finals just cracks me up.

There is absolutely no evidence that MJ would do worse than Kobe. The idea that MJ would have no chance to make 3 finals and would win 1 title at most is just beyond stupid.

I hope people realize what they are saying. Everyone seems to think that the 08 finals weren't close. Actually, if the Lakers don't have an epic collapse in game 4, they have a good chance to send the series back to Boston up 3-2. In that game? Kobe had 17 points on 6 of 19 shooting. Somehow I don't think Jordan does that.

Lmao, LA gets swept if Jordan plays the way he did in the 96 Finals..

[andgar923]

Yep. The idea that 96 Jordan replacing 08 Kobe gets outplayed by Paul Pierce in the Finals just cracks me up.

There is absolutely no evidence that MJ would do worse than Kobe. The idea that MJ would have no chance to make 3 finals and would win 1 title at most is just beyond stupid.

I hope people realize what they are saying. Everyone seems to think that the 08 finals weren't close. Actually, if the Lakers don't have an epic collapse in game 4, they have a good chance to send the series back to Boston up 3-2. In that game? Kobe had 17 points on 6 of 19 shooting. Somehow I don't think Jordan does that.

Wizards MJ was beating and outplaying prime Pierce (or close to prime), can't begin to imagine what 96 MJ would do to him.

Wizards MJ was also embarrassing Posey, KG and Ray.

[game3524]

Wizards MJ was beating and outplaying prime Pierce (or close to prime), can't begin to imagine what 96 MJ would do to him.

Wizards MJ was also embarrassing Posey, KG and Ray.

1996 Michael Jordan would have been shutdown, just like Kobe was in 2008.

[catch24]

Wizards MJ was beating and outplaying prime Pierce (or close to prime), can't begin to imagine what 96 MJ would do to him.

Wizards MJ was also embarrassing Posey, KG and Ray.

Yeah, '96 MJ with the rules today would carve Posey, Pierce and Ray-Ray to pieces.

I'm of the opinion MJ from 96-98 was better than 08-10 Kobe, btw.

[andgar923]

1996 Michael Jordan would have been shutdown, just like Kobe was in 2008.

If Wizards MJ was beating and blowing by Pierce, Allen, KG and Posey, what makes one think 96 MJ wouldn't?

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan

[guy]

See this is what I am talking about, you guys treat Jordan as if he was god. He is the best player of all-time, but he is slowly becoming the Reagan of basketball, where their is a ton revisionism.

Also those Bulls teams racked up a ton of wins in a water down league. Hell, the early 90's team was much better then the late 90's teams.

What revisionism? Since when is saying Jordan>Kobe revisionism? Since when is stating facts revisionism? I never said Jordan never made a mistake. Saying that he is better doesn't mean he's God.

Watered down league? Maybe it wasn't as strong as the early 90s or late 2000s, but its not like there was a significant difference between leagues that are only 10 years apart. Not that much has changed.

[DMAVS41]

Lmao, LA gets swept if Jordan plays the way he did in the 96 Finals..

I seriously doubt that. But then again, Gary Payton wasn't playing on the Celtics.

[game3524]

If Wizards MJ was beating and blowing by Pierce, Allen, KG and Posey, what makes one think 96 MJ would?

Because the 2008 Celtics are one of the greatest defensive teams of the modern era. This isn't 1990 MJ we are talking about, this 96 and older and slower, and easier player to defend.

MJ most likely puts up similar stats as Kobe did in 2008 Finals or worse.

[DMAVS41]

Because the 2008 Celtics are one of the greatest defensive teams of the modern era. This isn't 1990 MJ we are talking about, this 96 and older and slower, and easier player to defend.

MJ most likely puts up similar stats as Kobe did in 2008 Finals or worse.

Why would you think worse?

[DRose1899]

I seriously doubt that. But then again, Gary Payton wasn't playing on the Celtics.
Tony Allen is :violin:

INB4 Payton >>>>>>>>> Allen, ofc goddammit but let not like act they have no answer for MJ. 32-34 yo MJ will spend lot of gas vs posey, Allen, Pierce rotating to guard him.

Btw I'm just saying MJ isn't god that will hit every shot especially against legendary defensive 08' celtics.

[game3524]

What revisionism? Since when is saying Jordan>Kobe revisionism? Since when is stating facts revisionism? I never said Jordan never made a mistake. Saying that he is better doesn't mean he's God.

Watered down league? Maybe it wasn't as strong as the early 90s or late 2000s, but its not like there was a significant difference between leagues that are only 10 years apart. Not that much has changed.

It is revisionism because late 90's Jordan was not a better player then peak Bryant. Peak Bryant was a better defender then late 90's Jordan, athlete, and their offensive game are pretty much a wash.

Hell, peak Bryant was more efficient then late 90's Jordan in the playoffs as well.

Mid-late 90's NBA, the league was water down thanks to expansion. Those late 90's Bull teams were great, but they weren't as good as you think.

[guy]

It is revisionism because late 90's Jordan was not a better player then peak Bryant. Peak Bryant was a better defender then late 90's Jordan, athlete, and their offensive game are pretty much a wash.



LOL, other then athlete, NO. Not like he's far off, but he wasn't better at any of that.

[catch24]

It is revisionism because late 90's Jordan was not a better player then peak Bryant. Peak Bryant was a better defender then late 90's Jordan, athlete, and their offensive game are pretty much a wash.

Peak Bryant is from 06-08 (some argue 06-07), not 08-10...

[game3524]

Why would you think worse?

Because 2008 Bryant was at or close to his peak as a player, he had the skill, IQ, and he was still a great athlete. 1996 Jordan still had his smart, but athleticism had dipped.

Seeing how Boston was able to contain Bryant, I think they would have had an easier time with an older and slower Jordan.

Now if we are talking about 88-93 Jordan, he eats Boston up alive.

[game3524]

Peak Bryant is from 06-08 (some argue 06-07), not 08-10...

I am talking about 2008 Bryant, not 2009 or 2010.

[andgar923]

Because the 2008 Celtics are one of the greatest defensive teams of the modern era. This isn't 1990 MJ we are talking about, this 96 and older and slower, and easier player to defend.

MJ most likely puts up similar stats as Kobe did in 2008 Finals or worse.

No MJ doesn't put up the stats Kobe does, because he doesn't play like Kobe.

While they do have stylistic resemblances MJ's execution and decision making are different.

Let us go back and revisit the games.

Kobe was 'chucking' let us saying it again... CHUCKING.

And the Sonics' defense was on par if not better than the Celtics' defense. Kobe fans love to make a huge fuss about the legendary Celtics defense, but it was Kobe not playing smart. The opportunities and gaps were there, and at times he exploited them, but as I've stated repeatedly in all of my Kobe posts, it comes down to 'consistency' with Kobe. His consistency (or lack thereof) at making the proper decisions.

[game3524]

LOL, other then athlete, NO. Not like he's far off, but he wasn't better at any of that.

2008 Bryant was a better defender then 96-98 Jordan, hell 2008 may have been Bryant best defensive year since the 3-peat Lakers. And offensively they are about equal, but I give 2008 Kobe the edge since he was a better athlete then 1996-98 Jordan.

[game3524]

No MJ doesn't put up the stats Kobe does, because he doesn't play like Kobe.

While they do have stylistic resemblances MJ's execution and decision making are different.

Let us go back and revisit the games.

Kobe was 'chucking' let us saying it again... CHUCKING.

And the Sonics' defense was on par if not better than the Celtics' defense. Kobe fans love to make a huge fuss about the legendary Celtics defense, but it was Kobe not playing smart. The opportunities and gaps were there, and at times he exploited them, but as I've stated repeatedly in all of my Kobe posts, it comes down to 'consistency' with Kobe. His consistency (or lack thereof) at making the proper decisions.

That is a load of crap, the Celtics defense was better then the 96 Sonics defense. The 2008 Celtics may be a top 10 defensive team of all-time, their set, rotations, and communication were just insane. 1996 Sonics were great, but Boston was on a different level.

[DMAVS41]

Because 2008 Bryant was at or close to his peak as a player, he had the skill, IQ, and he was still a great athlete. 1996 Jordan still had his smart, but athleticism had dipped.

Seeing how Boston was able to contain Bryant, I think they would have had an easier time with an older and slower Jordan.

Now if we are talking about 88-93 Jordan, he eats Boston up alive.

I think you under estimate 96 MJ....he was on a mission to that year. Maybe more than any other to prove himself again. That is where the 72 wins came from. Kerr talked about it. He said there were like 8 to 10 games the Bulls had just no business winning and that MJ just elevated his game and wouldn't let them lose.

I don't care what version of MJ it is, the idea of Ray Allen and Posey slowing MJ down like they did Kobe doesn't fly for me.

There would be no doubt who the best player on the court was in the Finals if MJ was playing. With Kobe? Not so much. That is the difference.

[cteach111]

2008 Bryant was a better defender then 96-98 Jordan, hell 2008 may have been Bryant best defensive year since the 3-peat Lakers. And offensively they are about equal, but I give 2008 Kobe the edge since he was a better athlete then 1996-98 Jordan.

2008 Bryant was a better athlete than Jordan? :wtf:

good lord please stop.

[DMAVS41]

Tony Allen is :violin:

INB4 Payton >>>>>>>>> Allen, ofc goddammit but let not like act they have no answer for MJ. 32-34 yo MJ will spend lot of gas vs posey, Allen, Pierce rotating to guard him.

Btw I'm just saying MJ isn't god that will hit every shot especially against legendary defensive 08' celtics.

Did Tony Allen even play in the 08 finals? I can't remember him doing anything of impact at all.

[D.J.]

Prime Kobe isn't much better than Wizards Jordan. Mike put up 22.9/5.7/5.2/1.4 at 39 and 20.0/6.1/3.8/1.5 at 40.

[game3524]

2008 Bryant was a better athlete than Jordan? :wtf:

good lord please stop.

Yeah, he was a better athlete then 96-98 Jordan, not peak Jordan which was 88-93.

[game3524]

I think you under estimate 96 MJ....he was on a mission to that year. Maybe more than any other to prove himself again. That is where the 72 wins came from. Kerr talked about it. He said there were like 8 to 10 games the Bulls had just no business winning and that MJ just elevated his game and wouldn't let them lose.

I don't care what version of MJ it is, the idea of Ray Allen and Posey slowing MJ down like they did Kobe doesn't fly for me.

There would be no doubt who the best player on the court was in the Finals if MJ was playing. With Kobe? Not so much. That is the difference.

No, your just overrating 1996 Jordan, the Celtics would have contained just as well as they did Bryant, maybe even more so.

[catch24]

I am talking about 2008 Bryant, not 2009 or 2010.

You don't think Jordan feasts on those poor defenses Kobe went through during the playoffs? Utah, Denver? Jordan would average 30/5/5 on flawless efficiency too. Jordan vs Ginobili? Come on.

2003 Jordan schooled Pierce and Posey during his tenure with the Wizards at 40 f'ing years old. You honestly believe a smarter and more athletic version of Kobe would give up a 20 point lead at home in the Finals? Does any version of MJ during the second 3-peat get trounced by 30+ in an elimination game?

Get real.

[DMAVS41]

That is a load of crap, the Celtics defense was better then the 96 Sonics defense. The 2008 Celtics may be a top 10 defensive team of all-time, their set, rotations, and communication were just insane. 1996 Sonics were great, but Boston was on a different level.

Overall I agree. However, the perimeter defense of the Sonics was better. Trust me, going against Payton/McMillan/Hawkins was very difficult.

There is a reason why the Sonics had such a great defense even though they really didn't have a very good defensive front line.

That team was great on defense on the perimeter. And that is exactly where MJ and Kobe play.

[D.J.]

2003 Jordan schooled Pierce and Posey during his tenure with the Wizards at 40 f'ing years old. You honestly believe a smarter and more athletic version of Kobe would give up a 20 point lead at home in the Finals? Does any version of MJ during the second 3-peat get trounced by 30+ in an elimination game?

Get real.


Don't forget Richard Jefferson. Jordan lit up the Nets for 45 on New Year's Eve 2001 and 43 in February 2003. The latter being on Jefferson.

[DMAVS41]

No, your just overrating 1996 Jordan, the Celtics would have contained just as well as they did Bryant, maybe even more so.

Nah, you are just over-rating the shit out of 08 Kobe. Plain and simple.

[game3524]

You don't think Jordan feasts on those poor defenses Kobe went through during the playoffs? Utah, Denver? Jordan would average 30/5/5 on flawless efficiency too. Jordan vs Ginobili? Come on.

2003 Jordan schooled Pierce and Posey during his tenure with the Wizards at 40 f'ing years old. You honestly believe a smarter and more athletic version of Kobe would give up a 20 point lead at home in the Finals? Does any version of MJ during the second 3-peat get trounced by 30+ in an elimination game?

Get real.

I am talking about the Finals, MJ would have done well against the Western conference teams Kobe faced. I just don't MJ would have been leaps and bounds better then 2008 Bryant in the Finals. The Bulls may have won the series, since they were a better team then the 08 Lakers and 08 Celtics, but MJ performance would not be that much better then Bryant's.

[game3524]

Nah, you are just over-rating the shit out of 08 Kobe. Plain and simple.

It isn't overrating to suggest peak Bryant was better then past his peak Jordan.

[catch24]

Don't forget Richard Jefferson. Jordan lit up the Nets for 45 on New Year's Eve 2001 and 43 in February 2003. The latter being on Jefferson.

Yeah, both were great games

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI0l3GkvGuU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bSZSwWqum8

We're discussing what Jordan would/wouldn't do vs Boston, though.

[DMAVS41]

It isn't overrating to suggest peak Bryant was better then past his peak Jordan.

It is when you say 96 MJ would do worse. Do you really think 96 MJ would ever stop on the court in the Finals with the likes of Paul Pierce and at the end of the series most people would agree that Pierce was the better player in the series?

Hell no.

Maybe the Lakers lose, but they don't go down the way Kobe did. No ****ing way any Bulls version of MJ walks onto the Finals court with Paul Pierce and doesn't come away making sure we all know who the superior player is.

And again, if Kobe does that....maybe the Lakers win. It was a lot closer than you think.

[catch24]

I am talking about the Finals, MJ would have done well against the Western conference teams Kobe faced. I just don't MJ would have been leaps and bounds better then 2008 Bryant in the Finals. The Bulls may have won the series, since they were a better team then the 08 Lakers and 08 Celtics, but MJ performance would not be that much better then Bryant's.

Leaps and bounds better? Probably not ... but no Jordan-led team is giving up a 20 point lead during the Finals completely being shutdown and out played by Paul Pierce (nevermind losing by 30+ in an elimination game).

[LA_Showtime]

You don't think Jordan feasts on those poor defenses Kobe went through during the playoffs? Utah, Denver? Jordan would average 30/5/5 on flawless efficiency too. Jordan vs Ginobili? Come on.

2003 Jordan schooled Pierce and Posey during his tenure with the Wizards at 40 f'ing years old. You honestly believe a smarter and more athletic version of Kobe would give up a 20 point lead at home in the Finals? Does any version of MJ during the second 3-peat get trounced by 30+ in an elimination game?

Get real.

I agree with you that prime Jordan would obviously do better than Kobe, but I don't see how Jordan's numbers against Pierce and Posey are relevant because A) it was in the regular season and B) they didn't have KG and Perkins in the front court to help them.

[cteach111]

I agree with you that prime Jordan would obviously do better than Kobe, but I don't see how Jordan's numbers against Pierce and Posey are relevant because A) it was in the regular season and B) they didn't have KG and Perkins in the front court to help them.

this isn't prime Jordan. this is 96-98..

[game3524]

It is when you say 96 MJ would do worse. Do you really think 96 MJ would ever stop on the court in the Finals with the likes of Paul Pierce and at the end of the series most people would agree that Pierce was the better player in the series?

Hell no.

Maybe the Lakers lose, but they don't go down the way Kobe did. No ****ing way any Bulls version of MJ walks onto the Finals court with Paul Pierce and doesn't come away making sure we all know who the superior player is.

See, this is the crap I am talking about. You guys are turning MJ into some mythical figure.

I can understand this dick-sucking if it was peak Jordan, but mid-late 90's.....nah.

[catch24]

I agree with you that prime Jordan would obviously do better than Kobe, but I don't see how Jordan's numbers against Pierce and Posey are relevant because A) it was in the regular season and B) they didn't have KG and Perkins in the front court to help them.

Point taken. '96 wasn't Jordan in his prime though, and he just doesn't settle for jumpshots the way Kobe did that series. Jordan would have found a way to get through the seams or live at the FT line.

[DMAVS41]

See, this is the crap I am talking about. You guys are turning MJ into some mythical figure.

I can understand this dick-sucking if it was peak Jordan, but mid-late 90's.....nah.

Its turning MJ into a mythical figure to think that he wouldn't let PP upstage him on the biggest stage in basketball?

Really?

[LA_Showtime]

this isn't prime Jordan. this is 96-98..

okay, whatever, jordan from 96-98. any version of jordan is better than any version of kobe whether we're comparing their prime years, tail end years, rookie seasons, etc.

[gengiskhan]

okay, whatever, jordan from 96-98. any version of jordan is better than any version of kobe whether we're comparing their prime years, tail end years, rookie seasons, etc.

disagree

now Kobe'tards are going to another extreme.

Wizards Jordan is NOT better than '05-'10 Kobe.

[LA_Showtime]

disagree

now Kobe'tards are going to another extreme.

Wizards Jordan is NOT better than '05-'10 Kobe.

... did you even read the part after you bolded? :oldlol:

wizards jordan is obviously not better than prime kobe, but when comparing prime vs. prime, rookie vs. rookie, tail end vs. tail end, etc. than jordan obviously comes out on top. was it that hard to understand?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe has never been as good as 1996 Jordan - let's just get that out of the way. And he only has two seasons where he was roughly on par with '97 Jordan, and that's 2006 and 2007. Not '08-'10, and if so then ONLY 2008.

Kobe up to 2008 was equal to or better than 1998 Jordan. Not 2009 or 2010 Kobe though.

Also, anyone who's suggesting that '08-'10 Kobe had a larger defensive impact on games than Jordan needs to get their head examined. No way. Kobe has perhaps 2-3 years IN HIS CAREER where his defensive impact was on par with even 1998 Jordan, and none of those seasons are after 2005. Jordan's team/help defense was WORLDS beyond Kobe's and his man D was still comparable/superior, and team/help D is the largest component of overall defensive impact.

in before eliteballer's Doc Rivers' quote

[eliteballer]

You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:

No sheer coincidence how Jordan's effectiveness dropped as soon as the real 3 point line was reinstituted...

[ThaSwagg3r]

Also, anyone who's suggesting that '08-'10 Kobe had a larger defensive impact on games than Jordan needs to get their head examined. No way. Kobe has perhaps 2-3 years IN HIS CAREER where his defensive impact was on par with even 1998 Jordan, and none of those seasons are after 2005. Jordan's team/help defense was WORLDS beyond Kobe's and his man D was still comparable/superior, and team/help D is the largest component of overall defensive impact.

in before eliteballer's Doc Rivers' quote
That is not true for wing players. Team/help D is more important to big men than they are to wing players. I'd much rather have my wing players being great on-ball/man defenders than great help defenders. It's the bigs job to help on defense and block shots. It's the wings job to contest jump shots and force the offensive player into tough shots. Big men are suppose to anchor your defense and are better at it than wing players are.

Jordan was not as great of a defender in his second 3-peat as he was in his first.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:


Yeah, I'm telling you that 2007 Kobe is not better than a guy who averaged 30+/6/5/2+/50% FG/58% TS on a championship level team playing within a team concept, and who won a virtually unanimous MVP, ASG MVP, and Finals MVP en route to an NBA record 72 wins and a championship.

What could Jordan have averaged with the reins off like Kobe on a garbage team? At least 34 ppg, even at that age. And no one who isn't wearing purple and gold pajamas is betting against 1996 Jordan versus 2007 Kobe in any playoff series, I'll tell you that much. :oldlol:

An ancient, 35 year old Jordan led his Bulls who were missing Pippen for HALF THE SEASON to a better record than Kobe has ever led any of his more talented (compared to the '98 Bulls) Lakers teams to save for one year (2009). Imagine what a 33 year old 1996 MJ could have done? 66 wins with Pippen out for half the year isn't out of the question. Kobe can't even crack 60 wins with a stacked squad 3 of the last 4 seasons. :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

That is not true for wing players. Team/help D is more important to big men than they are to wing players. I'd much rather have my wing players being great on-ball/man defenders than great help defenders. It's the bigs job to help on defense and block shots. It's the wings job to contest jump shots and force the offensive player into tough shots. Big men are suppose to anchor your defense and are better at it than wing players are.

This is completely false. Great individual defense will save you PERHAPS 4-5 points per game. Great team/help defense can save you many more points per game as you disrupt post-ups, drives by other players etc. Plus it's not like MJ was helping out to the exclusion of his man D - he did both at a very high level. Watch the 1998 ECF and tell me that Kobe has EVER had that kind of defensive impact on games in any season post-2005. It's up on youtube - do yourself a favor and watch it. MJ was shutting down Jalen Rose, blanking the lightning-quick Travis Best when MJ was switched on him because he was killing Chicago's guards, breaking up 3-on-1 fastbreaks singlehandedly, making numerous deflections, making game-saving blocks with 30 seconds left etc. Kobe has never been a force on D like MJ was, even in 1998.


Jordan was not as great of a defender in his second 3-peat as he was in his first.

That's obvious. But his overall defensive impact was still clearly superior to '08-'10 Kobe's.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No sheer coincidence how Jordan's effectiveness dropped as soon as the real 3 point line was reinstituted...
Jordan shot 35% from the "real" 3 point line in 1993 before his 1st retirement.

Would Kobe's ppg numbers drop if the "real" perimeter defensive rules were reinstitued?

Do you realize how dumb you sound?

[-23-]

You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:

No sheer coincidence how Jordan's effectiveness dropped as soon as the real 3 point line was reinstituted...


Now I know 100% that you're under 18. If you knew any better you'd know that Jordan had a ripped tendon in his shooting hand from a golf game that effected his efficiency drastically. Look at his FT% for crying out loud.

[Duncan21formvp]

Kobe didn't even lead his team in Win Shares in 2009 and 2010 and in 2010 didn't even lead in PER.

[gengiskhan]

You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:


no he is not. Kobe is all time great. So was drexler & Dominique & Shaq. Both can average what Kobe did under the relaxed defensive rules he got 37ppg under. Dominique was freakish scorer, drexler was incredible slasher & had a great pull up jumper. So was Bernard King who could pull up from anywhere inside 3 pt line. All can do what kobe can.

If Kobe ave 37ppg post all-star break. Prime Shaq or Young Shaq can ave 43ppg all season under '07 rules.

MJ under '07 rules will ave 43ppg easily for whole season. & post prime '96-'98 MJ will ave 38-40ppg easily under 2007 rules.

But can Kobe do this under extremely physical Eastern Conference under defensively tough '90s NBA Rules.

1996: NBA MVP + NBA Finals MVP + Scoring Leader + 72 wins season
1997: Runner up MVP + Finals MVP+Scoring Leader + almost 70 wins
1998: NBA MVP + NBA Finals MVP + Scoring Leader

NO

[Plat]

the majority of the posters on this forum must be young as hell for this to even be asked...:oldlol: :oldlol:, whan did y'all start watching basketball, 03? LOL

[32Dayz]

You cant tell me that 2010 Kobe lighting up the suns didnt remind you of MJ.

Kobe getting embarrassed by OKC and needing Gasol to carry him did not remind me of MJ.

Kobe blowing major n*** against Boston especially at home, in the 4 games they won and in G7 and needing Gasol again to carry him did not remind me at all of MJ.

96-98 MJ is 2 or more Tiers above Peak Bryant.

[Legends66NBA7]

...

Welcome back. :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

:roll: :roll: 96-98 Jordan is as good as Prime Kobe.

96- 30\7\4 50%
97- 30\6\4 48.5%
98- 29\6\4 47%
In the Playoffs
'96 - .459%
'97 - .456%
'98 - .462%

Kobe's %, except Kobe took much more 3s, and averaged more assists at over 5.5 apg.

[32Dayz]

Playoff PER
96-98 Jordan = 27
08-10 Kobe = 25

Awards
Jordan = 2MVP + 3FMVP
Kobe = 1MVP + 1FMVP

+ Jordan won against better teams and played before the hand check rules changed which made it dramatically easier for guards to shoot efficiently while scoring on high volume these are huge differences which take the comparison from semi-reasonable to a complete joke.

Lets compare using only Pre-HC years.

Playoff PER
Jordan = 27
Kobe = 22

Either way its not close.
96-98 Jordan >> 08-10 Kobe

[Soundwave]

Kobe doesn't have the control of the game that Jordan did and I don't need numbers to be able to see that.

You just don't get the sense with Kobe that the Lakers are unbeatable. That some how, some way, Kobe can "will" them to victory, the way Jordan could with the Bulls (even the older Jordan).

Kobe's basketball I.Q. still is not as high as Jordan's either.

The Lakers are a team that completely falls apart when they lose and there's always the "we need a new All-Star for Kobe to play with" thing that comes up every 3-4 years.

I just never get that sense with a Kobe Bryant team that you'll have to kill the guy to beat the Lakers 4 times in a playoff series. When the Lakers implode, they also almost always seem to do so in the most embarrassing fashion, which IMO reflects on Kobe their leader.

[32Dayz]

Kobe doesn't have the control of the game that Jordan did and I don't need numbers to be able to see that.

You just don't get the sense with Kobe that the Lakers are unbeatable. That some how, some way, Kobe can "will" them to victory, the way Jordan could with the Bulls (even the older Jordan).

Kobe's basketball I.Q. still is not as high as Jordan's either.

The Lakers are a team that completely falls apart when they lose and there's always the "we need a new All-Star for Kobe to play with" thing that comes up every 3-4 years.

Exactly... Jordan had a brilliant BBIQ while Kobe has a poor one.

Kobe rarely seems to be able to just relax and play in rhythm he is either in score mode or defer mode.
Jordan meanwhile would always be a few steps ahead and would quickly either defer, set screens and play off the ball or immediately attack the basket and make a move for himself.

Jordan also never had to be carried through whole series like Bryant did especially in 2010.
Remember Gasol having to carry LA against OKC and severely outplaying Bryant at the staples center in the Finals and in G7?

Bryant is a great player who has honed his game over the years but certain things like BBIQ you are just born with... Kobe to me has always seemed to have a 1V1 style of play not really a style that meshes perfectly in a team game and thats why he has always been subpar at knowing when to defer or involve his teammates.

He will always be a legend and Top 15 or so player All-Time.

[Asukal]

God damn it let this thread die...... mods lock it pls. 32 days is back full retard. :hammerhead:

[TMacYaoRockets]

Exactly... Jordan had a brilliant BBIQ while Kobe has a poor one.

Kobe rarely seems to be able to just relax and play in rhythm he is either in score mode or defer mode.
Jordan meanwhile would always be a few steps ahead and would quickly either defer, set screens and play off the ball or immediately attack the basket and make a move for himself.

Jordan also never had to be carried through whole series like Bryant did especially in 2010.
Remember Gasol having to carry LA against OKC and severely outplaying Bryant at the staples center in the Finals and in G7?

Bryant is a great player who has honed his game over the years but certain things like BBIQ you are just born with... Kobe to me has always seemed to have a 1V1 style of play not really a style that meshes perfectly in a team game and thats why he has always been subpar at knowing when to defer or involve his teammates.

He will always be a legend and Top 15 or so player All-Time.
Didn't Pippen carry Jordan when he shot 5-19?

[bwink23]

lol @ 98 jordan taking 23 shots a game

lol @ 98 jordan taking 9 freethrows a game

disgust @ 98 jordan shooting 23% from the 3 point line :facepalm

smh @ 78% from the freethrow

scust @ this old ass negga only having 3 apg that year. My negga you old af, pass the ball more with yo 23% shootin asss


You obvious didn't know that Jordan was 35 years old that year, had a torn ligament in his index finger on his shooting hand, a busted knuckle on his shooting hand, and had to carry the Bulls without Scottie Pippen for the first 35 games in 1998....Hence the lower than normal FT shooting and FG shooting......FUNNY how it took all that to bring Jordan down to Kobe's level of efficiency huh??? :hammerhead:

[LakersReign]

32 dayz = bwink23 and an IP address check will confirm that:facepalm

[bwink23]

No, I understand basketball. You guys just want to turn Jordan into some mythical figure. Both Bryant and Jordan have high b-ball IQ, the difference is Jordan was a much better athlete then Bryant, which allowed him to get higher percentage shots.


Athleticism has nothing to do with Kobe's shot selection...:rolleyes:

[bwink23]

You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:

No sheer coincidence how Jordan's effectiveness dropped as soon as the real 3 point line was reinstituted...



Kobe post all-star break in 2007....

36.7ppg on 45.3%FG (27.4 FG's per game), 32.3% 3FG at 5.9 attempts per game....86.8%FT at 11.2 FTA per game....:wtf:


If that's not VOLUME SCORING, i don't know what is.....:facepalm

LOL at being a jumpshooter and getting 11.2 FTA per game...ARE YOU KIDDING?? SOFTEST ERA in NBA history for perimeter players, what a joke.


POST ALL-STAR BREAK = 27 games < 82..FOR THE RECORD

[bwink23]

32 dayz = bwink23 and an IP address check will confirm that:facepalm



:facepalm ....NO, i am not that guy....sorry to burst your bubble dumb ass...:no:

[Vienceslav]

T-t-t-t-t-riple POST! :roll:
Cmon guys with this debate , it

[LakersReign]

You should get it by now, Kobe haters have nothing better to do:facepalm

[bwink23]

You should get it by now, Kobe haters have nothing better to do:facepalm


Did you ever notice no one even talks to you here, LOL@!! :roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe didn't even lead his team in Win Shares in 2009 and 2010 and in 2010 didn't even lead in PER.
:roll:

[TheMan]

Prime MJ>>>>prime Kobe







/ thread

[AlphaWolf24]

Prime MJ>>>>prime Kobe







/ thread


"Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" - Phil Jackson 2001

now we can all move along...

[blablabla]

32 days here's a video for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgHITc1OL-c

[TheMan]

"Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" - Phil Jackson 2001

now we can all move along...
All the stats say eitherwise and your hero says MJ is the best ever...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Epu-7ITO4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://kicksaddict.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/kobe-in-mj-jersey.jpg

/thread

[AlphaWolf24]

All the stats say eitherwise and your hero says MJ is the best ever...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Epu-7ITO4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://kicksaddict.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/kobe-in-mj-jersey.jpg

/thread


stats say Kevin Love>Hakeem..what's your point?

I'm going off of watching both players whole careers and agreeing with Coach Phil...


get off of stats N@tz

[TheMan]

Call me when MJ sports a KB jersey:lol

[AlphaWolf24]

Call me when MJ sports a KB jersey:lol


he won't...but he got UMAD at Zeller for wearing Kobe 5's....:roll:

wich is even worse....he was almost as shook as when Kobe dropped 40 on him in 1half and made him cry on the bench

[TheMan]

stats say Kevin Love>Hakeem..what's your point?

I'm going off of watching both players whole careers and agreeing with Coach Phil...


get off of stats N@tz
Coach Phil says a lot of shit to motivate, if you're a Lakers fan, you know this.

MJ has every stat over KB except 3pt shooting, MVPs, Finals MVPs, playoff scoring avg etc...again, even Kobe says MJ is tha greatest eva, you gonna refute that???:roll:







/thread

[guy]

stats say Kevin Love>Hakeem..what's your point?



Actually they don't.

[TheMan]

he won't...but he got UMAD at Zeller for wearing Kobe 5's....:roll:

wich is even worse....he was almost as shook as when Kobe dropped 40 on him in 1half and made him cry on the bench
An over the hill MJ:facepalm

why does LBJ shit all over Kobe? He over the hill?

[Da_Realist]

"Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" - Phil Jackson 2001

now we can all move along...

LOL at Phil doing his best to coax Kobe into playing more team ball. He's the best all around player when he coached MJ and Pippen? That's like saying Jermaine was the most talented of all the Jacksons. :oldlol:

Let's examine Pippen, MJ, and Kobe...

Offense
1) ensures continuity and flow of the team's offense.
2) keeps teammates involved and focused
3) knows when to take over

Defense
1) Man to man defense
2) Team defense

Minor categories
Scoring
Rebounding
Passing
Blocks
Steals
Clutch (plays -- involves any play that can win the game)
Leadership

Is there more than one category where Kobe holds the top spot? Is there even ONE category that Kobe clearly owns?

[TheMan]

Actually they don't.
Don't tell him that, he doesn't believe in stats.:lol

so kevin love is greater than hakeem:oldlol:because he says so

[AlphaWolf24]

Coach Phil says a lot of shit to motivate, if you're a Lakers fan, you know this.

MJ has every stat over KB except 3pt shooting, MVPs, Finals MVPs, playoff scoring avg etc...again, even Kobe says MJ is tha greatest eva, you gonna refute that???:roll:







/thread


and Bill Russell has everything over MJ except Ballhogging, FMVP (named after him) Championships, defensive GOAT, MVP's etc.....so why don't many people consider Russell better?...or even top 3?

Just because MJ won more biased media awards don't make him better....(Look at the above example)

again...Phil Jackson said Kobe is the best allaround player....


nuff said.















next

[AlphaWolf24]

An over the hill MJ:facepalm

why does LBJ shit all over Kobe? He over the hill?


Kobe merked MJ at 18 - 19 years old too....:confusedshrug:

Lebron?....why would you bring a 2nd tier player into this convo?...

that's like asking why Drexler or Richmond beat Jordan on a few regular season games.....and besides....Kobe barely played the first 3 - 4 games vs Lebron.:confusedshrug:

again...keep this between top players who won.

[TheMan]

You're funny, keep posting!:lol

[TheMan]

Name me something other than 3pt shooting that Kobe bests Jordan

titles
scoring titles
shooting avg
assists
def
finals mvps
reg season mvps
win shares
highest playoff scoring
playoffs scoring avg
fg%
playoffs fg%

All MJ all day
:roll:

stats, what a pesky thing:lol

/thread
http://kicksaddict.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/kobe-in-mj-jersey.jpg

[Shade8780]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3342/4555131653_d2ec158101.jpg

[TheMan]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3342/4555131653_d2ec158101.jpg
Just giving AlphaWolf the rope, y'all, doing a great job hanging himself:lol

[guy]

and Bill Russell has everything over MJ except Ballhogging, FMVP (named after him) Championships, defensive GOAT, MVP's etc.....so why don't many people consider Russell better?...or even top 3?

Just because MJ won more biased media awards don't make him better....(Look at the above example)

again...Phil Jackson said Kobe is the best allaround player....


nuff said.















next

Where's the source of the quote of Phil saying that? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've heard Kobe fans claim Phil quotes like this all the time and then they cite the actual source and he's saying something different.

[andgar923]

Where's the source of the quote of Phil saying that? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've heard Kobe fans claim Phil quotes like this all the time and then they cite the actual source and he's saying something different.

He said it, it was a radio interview if I'm not mistaken.

But even Kobe fans know that this is nothing but one of Phil's infamous mind games. I seriously doubt that they actually believe this to be a sincere comment.

[jstern]

Jordan 2 (Comeback) Jordan is the best player I've ever seen. (I saw his first 3 championship, but I was like 9 to 12 years old).

[TheMan]

He said it, it was a radio interview if I'm not mistaken.

But even Kobe fans know that this is nothing but one of Phil's infamous mind games. I seriously doubt that they actually believe this to be a sincere comment.
Only KB fans believe it, the rest of the NBA world knows MJ> Kobe and it's not even close.

[jstern]

He said it, it was a radio interview if I'm not mistaken.

But even Kobe fans know that this is nothing but one of Phil's infamous mind games. I seriously doubt that they actually believe this to be a sincere comment.

Phil always says Jordan is better in an indirect way when asked, until one day in 2010 he flat out said Jordan is the greatest of all time. Mistake I made was not saving the youtube video. It would be too hard to find it.

[AlphaWolf24]

Just giving AlphaWolf the rope, y'all, doing a great job hanging himself:lol


you gave nothing but stats...wich are marginal at best...then when that failed you just used "well the whole world says it...so it's true"

I agree as does NBA.com..."MJ by acclamation is the GOAT"....in other words...the majority says it....not by stats...or championships(he's not even close)...but by majority vote.

now since the world says MJ = GOAT...then what does the world think of Kobe?....I bet it's easily top 3 alltime right now world wide vote.


top 3 = not stupid for saying maybe the GOAT.

[TheMan]

you gave nothing but stats...wich are marginal at best...then when that failed you just used "well the whole world says it...so it's true"

I agree as does NBA.com..."MJ by acclamation is the GOAT"....in other words...the majority says it....not by stats...or championships(he's not even close)...but by majority vote.

now since the world says MJ = GOAT...then what does the world think of Kobe?....I bet it's easily top 3 alltime right now world wide vote.


top 3 = not stupid for saying maybe the GOAT.
:facepalm

[macpierce]

tough decision, i'd go with MJ since they won 3 instead of 2 chips

[andgar923]

Kobe is comparable to MJ in some aspects, more noticeable his offensive skill set. But even then, he's still just an MJ 'lite' version, not even MJ 2.0, just MJ lite.

Which looking at the great scheme of things isn't bad at all, but he's not better than MJ nor on par with him.

Having 'similarities' doesn't equate to being equal or better.

MJ is at the top of a 50 high pyramid, Kobe is at the 40th level at best.

[LakersReign]

Just gotta love it how the bandwagon mentality is pathetically used on ALL Laker/Kobe fans, like we're a bunch of mindless sheep like Lebron fans. We already know Kobe isn't Jordan, that's not even debatable. What makes you haters look utterly ridiculous is that you LOVE to say Kobe isn't close to Jordan. But then turn right around and want to try and bring up Lebron when he has absolutely nothing in common with Jordan. If you can't compare Kobe to Jordan, then you can't try and do it with Lebron either. Trying to do so just makes you look hilariously delusional. Then you wonder why you get the responses you normally get from not only Laker/Kobe fans, but NBA fans in general.

[andgar923]

Just gotta love it how the bandwagon mentality is pathetically used on ALL Laker/Kobe fans, like we're a bunch of mindless sheep like Lebron fans. We already know Kobe isn't Jordan, that's not even debatable. What makes you haters look utterly ridiculous is that you LOVE to say Kobe isn't close to Jordan. But then turn right around and want to try and bring up Lebron when he has absolutely nothing in common with Jordan. If you can't compare Kobe to Jordan, then you can't try and do it with Lebron either. Trying to do so just makes you look hilariously delusional. Then you wonder why you get the responses you normally get from not only Laker/Kobe fans, but NBA fans in general.

Coulv'e fooled me.

So you're saying that all of these Kobe fans are just trolling?

Cause I know some of them in person.

Btw..... MJ fans are nowhere near as hated as Kobe fans...not close. It's overwhelmingly Kobe fans exclusively that hate MJ fans.

[SuperPippen]

stats say Kevin Love>Hakeem..what's your point?

I'm going off of watching both players whole careers and agreeing with Coach Phil...


get off of stats N@tz

Not gonna argue with the idiocy of AlphaWolf, as I've already destroyed him before, as there is not a single person on this board (with the exception of a few extremely biased Kobe fans) that will ever agree with him, but I just had to point out the exceptional idiocy of this comment. :oldlol:

AlphaWolf proving, once again, that he's ISH's funniest troll. :oldlol:







Subsequent.

[LakersReign]

Coulv'e fooled me.

So you're saying that all of these Kobe fans are just trolling?

Cause I know some of them in person.

Btw..... MJ fans are nowhere near as hated as Kobe fans...not close. It's overwhelmingly Kobe fans exclusively that hate MJ fans.


That's only cuz you want to try to apply a bandwagoners mentality to all Laker/Kobe fans that CLEARLY does not exist. Not my fault or my problem. And trying to hold ALL Laker/Kobe fans accountable for the actions and thoughts of a few. While having nothing to say to fake Heat fans who still want to try and compare Lebron to Jordan, only strengthens my point.

[bwink23]

you gave nothing but stats...wich are marginal at best...then when that failed you just used "well the whole world says it...so it's true"

I agree as does NBA.com..."MJ by acclamation is the GOAT"....in other words...the majority says it....not by stats...or championships(he's not even close)...but by majority vote.

now since the world says MJ = GOAT...then what does the world think of Kobe?....I bet it's easily top 3 alltime right now world wide vote.


top 3 = not stupid for saying maybe the GOAT.



I suggest you go check every GOAT list you can find on the net and on Youtube...i guarantee you won't find Kobe top 3 all-time anywhere, HOMER....:hammerhead:

[bwink23]

An over the hill MJ:facepalm

why does LBJ shit all over Kobe? He over the hill?


You know Kobetards are whipped when they feel it necessary to prop Kobe up over a 40-year old Jordan who physically couldn't defend himself....:facepalm

[bwink23]

Kobe merked MJ at 18 - 19 years old too....:confusedshrug:

Lebron?....why would you bring a 2nd tier player into this convo?...

that's like asking why Drexler or Richmond beat Jordan on a few regular season games.....and besides....Kobe barely played the first 3 - 4 games vs Lebron.:confusedshrug:

again...keep this between top players who won.


Kobe "merked" MJ ?? You mean the whole 6 points he scored on Jordan in the 1998 game in Chicago? :hammerhead:

[Nevaeh]

You know Kobetards are whipped when they feel it necessary to prop Kobe up over a 40-year old Jordan who physically couldn't defend himself....:facepalm

What's really funny is, not only was Jordan not even guarding Kobe that game, but Kobe was rocking Jordan's kicks in tribute during that game as well :oldlol:
It's gotta be the shoes...


"Give your Old Man a hand boy!! It's the least you can do after all I done taught ya".
http://www.kicksandchicks.com/nike-shoes/08/08/04/images/air-jordan-viii-8-retro-kobe-bryant-player-exclusives_1.jpg

http://www.sneakerfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/airjordanviiikobepemain.jpg

[pauk]

Any Jordan > Kobe today.... except maybe the Wizards one

[TheMan]

To quote AlphaWolf, stats don't matter, Kevin Love is greater than Hakeem because he says so:lol

[TheMan]

You know Kobetards are whipped when they feel it necessary to prop Kobe up over a 40-year old Jordan who physically couldn't defend himself....:facepalm
That's like me saying I'm better than Jerry West because I'm in my 30s and I'm sure I can beat a 70 year old ass West:facepalm

[lefthook00]

MJ is was a better athlete. Straight up fact. Mj, even in 2nd 3peat era, was more of a no nonsense player than Kobe. Kobe strings more moves together on individual plays and has more range. MJ was a really quick striker, a little different than Kobe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Jjl9_ZDY4
One of the best highlights I've seen. He is just too clean, it's too easy. Look at how fast MJ still was, especially on those plays where he is driving. Just a supreme athlete. Possibly GOAT athlete.

[andgar923]

MJ is was a better athlete. Straight up fact. Mj, even in 2nd 3peat era, was more of a no nonsense player than Kobe. Kobe strings more moves together on individual plays and has more range. MJ was a really quick striker, a little different than Kobe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Jjl9_ZDY4
One of the best highlights I've seen. He is just too clean, it's too easy. Look at how fast MJ still was, especially on those plays where he is driving. Just a supreme athlete. Possibly GOAT athlete.
One overlooked aspect, but highly critical was mj's faster decision making and reaction capabilities. Combine that with mj's superior peripheral vision and higher IQ and it became a nightmare trying to stop him, more so than kobe. So even in mj's later years when his athleticism had faded, he was causing tons of problems to his defenders, yes even in his wizard years.

[rodman91]

One overlooked aspect, but highly critical was mj's faster decision making and reaction capabilities. Combine that with mj's superior peripheral vision and higher IQ and it became a nightmare trying to stop him, more so than kobe. So even in mj's later years when his athleticism had faded, he was causing tons of problems to his defenders, yes even in his wizard years.

He was an MVP runner before injury.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/502/wizardjordan.png

[andgar923]

He was an MVP runner before injury.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/502/wizardjordan.png

Not to get into a whole debate over who was better Wiz MJ or any Kobe version, but my post was meant to illustrate my point. We saw that even an unathletic MJ (for his standards) he could still give defense nightmares due to his higher IQ, faster reading and reacting time. He simply made it harder for the defense to adjust, more so than Kobe ever has.

[bwink23]

He was an MVP runner before injury.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/502/wizardjordan.png


Jordan's biggest issues as a Wizard was he physically couldn't perform well every night. Much of that from injury and age. When you body isn't right, your shots not right....

If you eliminate all these absurdly horrible Jordan games...he was 23.9ppg on 47%FG in 75% of the games he played in.

NOT BAD considering he was playing during an era where 43-44% FG was average.

[bwink23]

He was an MVP runner before injury.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/502/wizardjordan.png


We can also consider the fact the Jordan has SEVERAL first quarters where he went off for 18-24 points...

It makes sense that he couldn't sustain it due to physical limitations...

[andgar923]

We can also consider the fact the Jordan has SEVERAL first quarters where he went off for 18-24 points...

It makes sense that he couldn't sustain it due to physical limitations...

What most don't understand is that MJ's efficiency wasn't low because he couldn't play, it was low because his body couldn't maintain it.

He was carrying a ton of load, he was supposed to come off the bench and play limited minutes. But as injuries and bad play piled on, he was forced to carry the entire team on both ends. He'd play great the first half, but had his efficiency drop during the second. And if one looks it up, EVERY player has a drop off in the second half, and the stats actually show that players normally have good 1st and 3rd quarters, but their stats/efficiency drop in the 2nd and 4th. And to add to this, his performance in back to back games was poor... again, due to his body not being able to handle the pressure. But in games in which he had a few days rest, he was playing like one of the best 5 players in the league and an MVP candidate.

I laugh at the notion that he couldn't play or that this generation would kill MJ.

[PTB Fan]

Not really a Kobe fan, but he may be better than 96-98 Jordan in his prime. Anyway, i can understand the argument from Jordan because they are close in this argument anyway.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Any Jordan > Kobe today.... except maybe the Wizards one
:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

One overlooked aspect, but highly critical was mj's faster decision making and reaction capabilities. Combine that with mj's superior peripheral vision and higher IQ and it became a nightmare trying to stop him, more so than kobe. So even in mj's later years when his athleticism had faded, he was causing tons of problems to his defenders, yes even in his wizard years.

Yup, and that's what's missing in Lebron and Kobe's game which causes them to shit the bed against the better defenses in the playoffs/finals. Both guys don't make quick decisions when they get the ball, there's a lot of dribbling and standing around and that gives defenses the chance to double, trap them, etc. Jordan on the other hand never let the D pigeonhole him. Like in the video Lefthook posted, MJ was always one step ahead. Whenever they would throw a double at him, he'd always put himself in a position where he could beat it or more likely avoid it. If they throw a double at him in the low post, he'd spin baseline to avoid the help. If he saw the double coming while he was at the top of the key, he'd pull a dribble move to avoid it before it was set (Dwade is great at this particular aspect, Bron and Kobe are terrible at reading help D).

Lebron usually makes up for his lack of quick decision making and play reading ability with his ridiculous court vision, so he can always find the open man. Kobe on the other hand usually decides to just chuck regardless of how ill-conceived it is, but he has gotten a lot better in the last 4 years or so in that regard. But neither guy even comes remotely close to Jordan.

[eliteballer]

jordan played in a less defense, more running and man to man vs addition of zone era. Easier to react.

[bwink23]

jordan played in a less defense, more running and man to man vs addition of zone era. Easier to react.


Tim Grover said Jordan is physically and mentally the best he's ever seen...and he's trained Jordan, Kobe and Lebron...:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

jordan played in a less defense, more running and man to man vs addition of zone era. Easier to react.

KB42PAH's gospel still lives :oldlol:

Absolute horseshit what you typed above. Most teams in the league don't even bother with zone (DAL and MIN in the past 10 years being the few notable exceptions who employ zone every once in a while). And that's not even considering the league making it virtually impossible to effectively guard perimeter players with the elimination of hand checking and any sort of physical play.