Prime Kobe & T-Mac>>>Prime Lebron & Wade

[G-Funk]

Kobe and T-mac actually had mad skills, Wade and Lebron just use their athleticism.

[Dave3]

Prime LeBron > Prime Kobe
Prime Wade > Prime Tmac
but Prime Kobe > Prime Wade

Prime Tmac was a great scorer sure. He didn't have close to the defense or passing of LeBron and Wade. Nor was he near as efficient as either of them.

I'm not going into the Kobe vs. LeBron because it's been done a million times.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Kobe and Tmac have one thing Wade/Lebron might never have : consistent and clutch range.

Hollar at me when Lebron and Wade arent scared to shoot threes in the final minutes..

Kobe and Tmac would be an insane duo.. too tall, too long, too fast, too quick, too athletic..these guys would have made the league look silly. . Guaranteed atleast 2 championships. No other players necessary.. these guys could win 5v2.

http://holdouthotline.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/kobe_tmac01.jpg

:bowdown:

[lefthook00]

Prime LeBron > Prime Kobe
Prime Wade > Prime Tmac
but Prime Kobe > Prime Wade

Prime Tmac was a great scorer sure. He didn't have close to the defense or passing of LeBron and Wade. Nor was he near as efficient as either of them.

I'm not going into the Kobe vs. LeBron because it's been done a million times.

You must have forgotten that T-Mac used to clown, and I mean CLOWN LeBron when he was still healthy. Go back and watch.

[The-Legend-24]

Prime T-mac and Kobe would destroy anybody. Too skilled, too fast, just too good.

[Dave3]

You must have forgotten that T-Mac used to clown, and I mean CLOWN LeBron when he was still healthy. Go back and watch.
I watched most of Tmac's career and all of LeBron's career. Tmac had one or two great games against 19 and 20 year old LeBron. You're telling me he was better than 2008-Present LeBron because of that? Tmac as an overall player wasn't close to what LeBron was in 2008-2010. His strongest ability (scoring) can be argued that LeBron does it better because he's a similar volume (high 20's, low 30s) on much better percentages. The rest isn't all that close. LeBron's a better rebounder, passer, playmaker, defender, and has the majority of the advantages in athleticism.

[lefthook00]

I watched most of Tmac's career and all of LeBron's career. Tmac had one or two great games against 19 and 20 year old LeBron. You're telling me he was better than 2008-Present LeBron because of that? Tmac as an overall player wasn't close to what LeBron was in 2008-2010. His strongest ability (scoring) can be argued that LeBron does it better because he's a similar volume (high 20's, low 30s) on much better percentages. The rest isn't all that close. LeBron's a better rebounder, passer, playmaker, defender, and has the majority of the advantages in athleticism.

Yeah, LeBron is better than T-Mac.

[thejumpa]

Is a prime T-Mac better than a 2011 LeBron?

FWIW, I think T-Macs playmaking ability is on par with LeBrons. It's just...LeBron impacts any given game more than TMac did. Defense, playmaking, rebounding, etc. It could be argued that TMac was the more skilled player, though. His pull up was the greatest of all time IMO.

[Theoo's Daddy]

Kobe and Tmac have one thing Wade/Lebron might never have : consistent and clutch range.

Hollar at me when Lebron and Wade arent scared to shoot threes in the final minutes..

Kobe and Tmac would be an insane duo.. too tall, too long, too fast, too quick, too athletic..these guys would have made the league look silly. . Guaranteed atleast 2 championships. No other players necessary.. these guys could win 5v2.

http://holdouthotline.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/kobe_tmac01.jpg

:bowdown:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2ltnjg7.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIwCYtUKjz8&feature=channel_video_title

[Dave3]

Is a prime T-Mac better than a 2011 LeBron?

FWIW, I think T-Macs playmaking ability is on par with LeBrons. It's just...LeBron impacts any given game more than TMac did. Defense, playmaking, rebounding, etc. It could be argued that TMac was the more skilled player, though. His pull up was the greatest of all time IMO.
His playmaking ability was good but not quite as good as LeBron's. He did have a significantly better 3 point shot, and his midrange pullup was unmatched. I'd put prime Tmac on par with a 2011 LeBron tbh.

[knightfall88]

His playmaking ability was good but not quite as good as LeBron's. He did have a significantly better 3 point shot, and his midrange pullup was unmatched. I'd put prime Tmac on par with a 2011 LeBron tbh.

Watch run down Tmac in Detroit. He has better court vision and passing skills than Lebron will ever have. Drive and kick every possession to rack up assists does not equal better playmaking ability.

Don't even need to bring up Tmac in his prime.

[The-Legend-24]

How is holding the ball for 20 seconds pass then drive and kick it to somebody good playmaking?

[Theoo's Daddy]

Watch run down Tmac in Detroit. He has better court vision and passing skills than Lebron will ever have. Drive and kick every possession to rack up assists does not equal better playmaking ability.

Don't even need to bring up Tmac in his prime.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ltnjg7.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz-5R4NNfhU

[thejumpa]

Watch run down Tmac in Detroit. He has better court vision and passing skills than Lebron will ever have. Drive and kick every possession to rack up assists does not equal better playmaking ability.

Don't even need to bring up Tmac in his prime.

You're playmaking and passing skills don't go anywhere. In that regard, TMac is the same player he was in Orlando:confusedshrug:

LeBrons playmaking is just different. Like you said, it's "drive and kick" which is why he does his best with great shooters around him. TMacs abilities are more suited for a traditional PG. His court vision is great and his passes come in a variety of ways. LeBron just makes crazy passes that hit guys right where they can pull up and shoot it. He's probably better at pick and pops/rolls too. It's actually a pretty good comparison.

[Dave3]

You're playmaking and passing skills don't go anywhere. In that regard, TMac is the same player he was in Orlando:confusedshrug:

LeBrons playmaking is just different. Like you said, it's "drive and kick" which is why he does his best with great shooters around him. TMacs abilities are more suited for a traditional PG. His court vision is great and his passes come in a variety of ways. LeBron just makes crazy passes that hit guys right where they can pull up and shoot it. He's probably better at pick and pops/rolls too. It's actually a pretty good comparison.
LeBron is also excellent at dropping it down for post dunks. How many easy dunks have Veraejo, Hickson, Z, and Gooden received from LeBron over the years that 95% of other NBA players wouldn't see or be able to make? Overall he's just a better playmaker.

[Xsatyr]

Wow Tmac's playmaking abilities are being vastly underrated here and this is coming from a Tmac hater.

[Dave3]

Wow Tmac's playmaking abilities are being vastly underrated here and this is coming from a Tmac hater.
How? He was a great playmaker, but he wasn't as good as LeBron is. This is the same LeBron that averaged 9 apg last year. Tmac's career high is 6. The difference is illustrated in the numbers. Yes Tmac's team was worse, but his playmaking wasn't quite as good as LeBron's.

[thatoneblackguy]

Wow Tmac's playmaking abilities are being vastly underrated here and this is coming from a Tmac hater.
This. Many of these cats are too young to understand. Wish Tmac never got injured. (Same with Grant Hill)

[Xsatyr]

How? He was a great playmaker, but he wasn't as good as LeBron is. This is the same LeBron that averaged 9 apg last year. Tmac's career high is 6. The difference is illustrated in the numbers. Yes Tmac's team was worse, but his playmaking wasn't quite as good as LeBron's.

Lebron never averaged 9 assist. Tmac played off the ball way more than Lebron does thus giving Lebron more opportunities for assist. If Lebron knew how to play off the ball then he would not have looked so stupid during the finals. In fact once he learns how to do this along with working on his post up skills then the Heat have a guaranteed dynasty imho. Also Tmac's assist remained solid with the emergence of Yao; the Rockets played an inside out game. People who just post stats only reveal the truth about how much they've actually watched a player.

[All Net]

I miss prime T-mac

[Nash]

Prime T-Mac is in now way better than prime Lebron. Prime Lebron is one of the best players in NBA history, ability wise.

Anyway, I think it'll be Wade and Bron. Those guys made it to the finals together while T-Mac never got past 2nd round.

[thejumpa]

LeBron is also excellent at dropping it down for post dunks. How many easy dunks have Veraejo, Hickson, Z, and Gooden received from LeBron over the years that 95% of other NBA players wouldn't see or be able to make? Overall he's just a better playmaker.

Dropping it down for post dunks is not a skill. Those dudes are 6'10 and athletic. It's not hard to pass them the ball if they get open or cut or something. Pick and roll, pick and pop, crisp passes that are on target...that's what LeBron excels at.

And like others have said, LeBron averaging 9pg doesn't mean much. Like others on here, I've watched TMacs career from the start and you are really underrating the guys playmaking abilities. Try watching some games and quit relying on stats.

[thejumpa]

Prime T-Mac is in now way better than prime Lebron. Prime Lebron is one of the best players in NBA history, ability wise.

Anyway, I think it'll be Wade and Bron. Those guys made it to the finals together while T-Mac never got past 2nd round.

lol Prime Kobe and TMac would murder the league. There would literally be no defense that could stop them. LeBron+Wade is great, but they are not ****ing with those two. No way.

[sagr32]

lol Prime Kobe and TMac would murder the league. There would literally be no defense that could stop them. LeBron+Wade is great, but they are not ****ing with those two. No way.
exactly Kobe and T mac both had ridiculous offensive arsenals and they weren't as reliant on having the ball in their hands as much as wade/lebron.

[thejumpa]

exactly Kobe and T mac both had ridiculous offensive arsenals and they weren't as reliant on having the ball in their hands as much as wade/lebron.

It's not the same, but I'd LOVE to see TMac on LA. Actually I want MIA to replace Miller with TMac but damn...to see he and Kobe on the court together would be crazy.

[sagr32]

It's not the same, but I'd LOVE to see TMac on LA. Actually I want MIA to replace Miller with TMac but damn...to see he and Kobe on the court together would be crazy.
I was hoping LA picked him up last summer instead of resigning shannon brown. I didn't catch many of his piston games but in the ones i did he looked good at the very least better then brown. Is he a free agent this summer?

[thejumpa]

I was hoping LA picked him up last summer instead of resigning shannon brown. I didn't catch many of his piston games but in the ones i did he looked good at the very least better then brown. Is he a free agent this summer?

Yup....stats don't show the strides he made this season. He still has decent quickness and vertical leap too. The guy has some years left in him. Probably as a pg and not a sg though. Rumors are that he's trying to sign win a team in Turkey. He signed a 1 year deal with Detroit so yeah he's a free agent...this lockout sucks

[Doctor Rivers]

I'm a dumba$$


:applause: :applause:

:rockon:

[G-Funk]

exactly Kobe and T mac both had ridiculous offensive arsenals and they weren't as reliant on having the ball in their hands as much as wade/lebron.

This. I would rather have them teach me how to play ball instead of Lebron and Wade. Only things you can really learn from Lebron and Wade is how be a better help defender and how to use a pick and roll, everthing else has to do with athleticism and how you wanna play the game. With T-mac and Kobe you can learn A LOT more!

[ZaaaaaH]

These 10 year olds think LeBron is still the King :facepalm

And these 15 year olds still think this is 2006 when Wade finally won with a stacked team. :facepalm

They have no Idea how sick T-Mac in his prime was and lets not even talk about Kobes prime.

[Dave3]

Lebron never averaged 9 assist. Tmac played off the ball way more than Lebron does thus giving Lebron more opportunities for assist. If Lebron knew how to play off the ball then he would not have looked so stupid during the finals. In fact once he learns how to do this along with working on his post up skills then the Heat have a guaranteed dynasty imho. Also Tmac's assist remained solid with the emergence of Yao; the Rockets played an inside out game. People who just post stats only reveal the truth about how much they've actually watched a player.
1. Yes LeBron did average 9 apg. 8.6 is rounded up to 9, not down to 8. I made a mistake though (I thought Tmac's career high was 5.9 (hence I said 6) but it was actually 6.5, so then it's 7 apg, not 6.

2. I'm talking about Orlando Tmac (the title says prime) not Houston Tmac. In Orlando he was very ball dominant, though probably not as quite as LeBron. You're forgetting in 2003 he took 24 shots/game. That's a pretty large volume of shots. He also had many passes that led to assists but weren't direct assists. And Tmac playing more off the ball in Houston (which I thought was a bad idea by VanGundy considering Yao was a sophomore and Tmac was the reigning scoring champ) didn't hurt his assists at all, but it did hurt his scoring drastically. And I didn't post any stats until my last post. Everything before then was qualitative not quantitative, but it was going in circles so I brought up stats for evidence. I doubt there are many posters here who've seen more of Tmac than I have from 2002-2008.

[Dave3]

Dropping it down for post dunks is not a skill. Those dudes are 6'10 and athletic. It's not hard to pass them the ball if they get open or cut or something. Pick and roll, pick and pop, crisp passes that are on target...that's what LeBron excels at.

And like others have said, LeBron averaging 9pg doesn't mean much. Like others on here, I've watched TMacs career from the start and you are really underrating the guys playmaking abilities. Try watching some games and quit relying on stats.
I don't mean simply dropping it down to the post. I'm talking about seeing passing lanes that no one else would see. I'm talking about bullet passes through defenses or bounce passes in the perfect spot for the player to go up and easily dunk it. If you watched the Cavs from 2005-2010 you'd know the type of passes I was talking about. I'm not talking about cuts. I'm talking about when the player is already down there, and LeBron is able to put the ball in the perfect spot the instant the defense shifts slightly so that the offensive player can catch it and go up unopposed.

And once again, I watched the majority of Tmac's games from 2002-2008. In Orlando he was very ball dominant. Yeah he probably wasn't as ball dominant as LeBron, but it's hardly a huge gap like any of you guys are making it out to be. Once he got to Houston yes he touched the ball less, and it affected his field goal attempts. He was still a playmaker as much as he was in Orlando (and his assists increased some seasons because he played with better players) but he was less of a scorer. You guys forget that even when Tmac was in his prime and LeBron was entering the league, people considered LeBron a point guard or Magic Johnson type player purely because of his playmaking passing. Even as a rookie or sophomore people thought his playmaking and passing were matched by only point guards in the league. I don't know why then you're arguing that in his absolute prime (LeBron) he still wasn't as good as Tmac, who was a great scorer first and other things second. LeBron is a playmaker first, and other things second.

[DLeagueWannabe]

Honestly...

Bryant and McGrady would have been the closest thing to Jordan and Pippen.

IMO, McGrady was always supposed to be Pippen. That's the closest comparison if there ever was one.

[thejumpa]

I don't mean simply dropping it down to the post. I'm talking about seeing passing lanes that no one else would see. I'm talking about bullet passes through defenses or bounce passes in the perfect spot for the player to go up and easily dunk it. If you watched the Cavs from 2005-2010 you'd know the type of passes I was talking about. I'm not talking about cuts. I'm talking about when the player is already down there, and LeBron is able to put the ball in the perfect spot the instant the defense shifts slightly so that the offensive player can catch it and go up unopposed.

And once again, I watched the majority of Tmac's games from 2002-2008. In Orlando he was very ball dominant. Yeah he probably wasn't as ball dominant as LeBron, but it's hardly a huge gap like any of you guys are making it out to be. Once he got to Houston yes he touched the ball less, and it affected his field goal attempts. He was still a playmaker as much as he was in Orlando (and his assists increased some seasons because he played with better players) but he was less of a scorer. You guys forget that even when Tmac was in his prime and LeBron was entering the league, people considered LeBron a point guard or Magic Johnson type player purely because of his playmaking passing. Even as a rookie or sophomore people thought his playmaking and passing were matched by only point guards in the league. I don't know why then you're arguing that in his absolute prime (LeBron) he still wasn't as good as Tmac, who was a great scorer first and other things second. LeBron is a playmaker first, and other things second.

First off, LeBron and TMac are two of my favorite players of all time. I've followed LeBron since '02 and TMac since 99 or so. I've followed Tracy even more since his decline in Houston.

That being said, I now understand what you are saying about LeBron and his crisp, direct passes into the post. He can definitely do that but come on...that isn't his game and you know it. It's drive and kick to an open shooter. That's why he had shooters around him in Cleveland and Miami. If you give LeBron the ball and tell him to be your PG and run your offense, that's what you're gonna get. He's probably the best at it. That being said, his style DID inflate assist numbers(nothing wrong with that either) so you can't really be like "Oh, LeBron average 9apg so he's better at playmaking". Nah..doesn't work like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LziwU_W97Y&feature=related

As you can see in this video(although with corny ass music), TMac has pretty much ever passing skill LeBron has minus the ability to throw extremely hard passes that hit you in the chest in your sweet spot. Him being 6'8 and with a polished offensive game kept teams on their toes, bro. They knew he had the height to see over defenses, the hands to ball fake you out of your shoes, and the IQ to make passes that would set guys up for easy baskets. His playmaking abilities were much more than drive and kick or PnR/P.

Who's arguing that a prime LeBron isn't as good as a prime TMac? Sure as hell isn't me. FWIW, I think LeBron is still in his prime and like I said earlier, he's better than TMac simply because he impacts the game more. What I am saying is that TMacs passing/playmaking/ability is on par with LeBrons and possibly even better. He's EASILY the more skilled offensive player. LBJ has him in rebounding, defense, and he's also the more efficient scorer.

[KenneBell]

IMO '03 Kobe and T-Mac would be considered better than current Lebron and Wade if they played in the league right now.

Scoring wise they both trump those two. I don't think there's any players since prime Jordan that were as dynamic and creative ,inside and out on offense.

[Xsatyr]

1. Yes LeBron did average 9 apg. 8.6 is rounded up to 9, not down to 8. I made a mistake though (I thought Tmac's career high was 5.9 (hence I said 6) but it was actually 6.5, so then it's 7 apg, not 6.

2. I'm talking about Orlando Tmac (the title says prime) not Houston Tmac. In Orlando he was very ball dominant, though probably not as quite as LeBron. You're forgetting in 2003 he took 24 shots/game. That's a pretty large volume of shots. He also had many passes that led to assists but weren't direct assists. And Tmac playing more off the ball in Houston (which I thought was a bad idea by VanGundy considering Yao was a sophomore and Tmac was the reigning scoring champ) didn't hurt his assists at all, but it did hurt his scoring drastically. And I didn't post any stats until my last post. Everything before then was qualitative not quantitative, but it was going in circles so I brought up stats for evidence. I doubt there are many posters here who've seen more of Tmac than I have from 2002-2008.

I am not going to say Tmac averaged 7 nor will I say Lebron averaged 9, I will not round up. Also Yao was way more efficient than Tmac at scoring so they played through him. Tmac also played off the the ball while in Orlando, he also half-assed his entire career. There is a reason why Raptors, Rockets and Magic fans boo him. The guy would quit on games even when they were winning or still in the game. That is why I am Tmac hater, no respect for the guy. But when he wanted to go off through scoring or playmaking he could almost at will.

Perfect example of Tmac quitting in one game which he did throughout his career. His numbers could have been higher but he has no desire. Lebron is and will always be a better player than Tmac for that reason alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjbkXewxlGI

[Samurai Swoosh]

IMO, McGrady was always supposed to be Pippen. That's the closest comparison if there ever was one.
No, McGrady was more alpha than Pippen. He was a WAY more polished scorer. McGrady is a great scorer. Pippen is a jack of all trades, master of none. The closest to Pippen, actually a superior version of Pippen IS LeBron James.

[Dave3]

First off, LeBron and TMac are two of my favorite players of all time. I've followed LeBron since '02 and TMac since 99 or so. I've followed Tracy even more since his decline in Houston.

That being said, I now understand what you are saying about LeBron and his crisp, direct passes into the post. He can definitely do that but come on...that isn't his game and you know it. It's drive and kick to an open shooter. That's why he had shooters around him in Cleveland and Miami. If you give LeBron the ball and tell him to be your PG and run your offense, that's what you're gonna get. He's probably the best at it. That being said, his style DID inflate assist numbers(nothing wrong with that either) so you can't really be like "Oh, LeBron average 9apg so he's better at playmaking". Nah..doesn't work like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LziwU_W97Y&feature=related

As you can see in this video(although with corny ass music), TMac has pretty much ever passing skill LeBron has minus the ability to throw extremely hard passes that hit you in the chest in your sweet spot. Him being 6'8 and with a polished offensive game kept teams on their toes, bro. They knew he had the height to see over defenses, the hands to ball fake you out of your shoes, and the IQ to make passes that would set guys up for easy baskets. His playmaking abilities were much more than drive and kick or PnR/P.

Who's arguing that a prime LeBron isn't as good as a prime TMac? Sure as hell isn't me. FWIW, I think LeBron is still in his prime and like I said earlier, he's better than TMac simply because he impacts the game more. What I am saying is that TMacs passing/playmaking/ability is on par with LeBrons and possibly even better. He's EASILY the more skilled offensive player. LBJ has him in rebounding, defense, and he's also the more efficient scorer.
LeBron's game was drive and kick only for the last 3 years. Before 2009 in Cleveland he had no shooters (Hughes, Snow, Gooden...) and most of his passes were the ones leading to dunks for the bigmen. His style changed when his teammates changed so as to suit their needs. He has the ability to assist both perimeter and under the basket shots. And again, I brought up 9 apg because prior to that we were going in circles with "yes he's better, no he's not"

And Tmac was a very good passer, but LeBron can do it with more consistency and he had better court vision. I'm not arguing passing directly, I'm arguing playmaking, which includes the passing, but also the ability to set up the open teammates and see openings other players won't. You can't just show that in a youtube video.

And I was talking about LeBron being better than Tmac as a playmaker, not overall.

[jlip]

Kobe and T-mac actually had mad skills, Wade and Lebron just use their athleticism.

Firstly, it is completely impossible to dominate the NBA in the 21st century with only athleticism. If one could, then players such as Gerald Green, Stromile Swift, and James White would be stars. Some level of skill must be present. Lebron and Wade are both athletic and skilled.

Secondly I laugh all the time at arguments that certain players are not legitimately good or not as good as others because they use their athletic advantages. Ummm...Isn't basketball an "ATHLETIC" competition? Aren't the players called...ATHLETES? So now an athlete using athleticism is supposed to be a bad thing...OKaaaay? Basketball is not darts or chess. It's not a sport based totally on skill. 9 times out of 10 some level of athleticism is required whether it's speed, quickness, strength, jumping ability, or endurance.

Finally there are more skills to the game than just having a nice jumper and low post footwork. Let's face it. In most discussions today, that's basically what a poster is thinking when he says that player A is more skilled than player B. I'll just let Oscar Robertson, who was arguably the most fundamentally skilled player ever, give his perspective on what constitutes basketball skills:

"...knowing how to run a good fast break is a skill. So is busting your hump and getting out on the wing and filling the lane at the proper angle...

Knowing how to rub off a defender when you use a pick is a skill. Knowing how to feel a defender with your body and read the court to see where help is coming from is a skill. Knowing how to stay in control, pace yourself, and not use all of your energy too early or give away all of your tricks, that's a skill. Setting solid picks and knowing how to get yourself open from them; knowing how to hit a guy with a pass the exact moment he frees himself and how to get him the ball in a place and at a time that allows him to shoot in rhythm; getting position low on the post; boxing out; playing solid man-to-man defense while also knowing where the ball is-- those are skills."

http://books.google.com/books?id=fs6IXDF80WEC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=Knowing+how+to+rub+off+a+defender+when+you+use+ a+pick+is+a+skill.++Knowing+how+to+feel+a+defender +with+your+body+and+read+the+court+to+see+where+he lp+is+coming+from+is+a+skill&source=bl&ots=7sChOUS55U&sig=RriVaCiL3v_UsYu1sPfnh6FSCo0&hl=en&ei=SC0fTvSQEOfm0QGImaHGAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Knowing%20how%20to%20rub%20off%20a%20defender%20 when%20you%20use%20a%20pick%20is%20a%20skill.%20%2 0Knowing%20how%20to%20feel%20a%20defender%20with%2 0your%20body%20and%20read%20the%20court%20to%20see %20where%20help%20is%20coming%20from%20is%20a%20sk ill&f=false

[thejumpa]

LeBron's game was drive and kick only for the last 3 years. Before 2009 in Cleveland he had no shooters (Hughes, Snow, Gooden...) and most of his passes were the ones leading to dunks for the bigmen. His style changed when his teammates changed so as to suit their needs. He has the ability to assist both perimeter and under the basket shots. And again, I brought up 9 apg because prior to that we were going in circles with "yes he's better, no he's not"

And Tmac was a very good passer, but LeBron can do it with more consistency and he had better court vision. I'm not arguing passing directly, I'm arguing playmaking, which includes the passing, but also the ability to set up the open teammates and see openings other players won't. You can't just show that in a youtube video.

And I was talking about LeBron being better than Tmac as a playmaker, not overall.

Ok gotcha. I guess we are gonna have agree to disagree. TMac can set up open teammates and see openings that other players don't as well. Just like LeBron. Remember, one of the biggest advantages Bron has over other ballhandlers is the fact that he's 6'8 and can see over the defense. TMac is the same height. I'd go as far to say that if he focused on his playmaking more than his offensive game in his later years(kinda like how he was in Detroit), he'd be a notch ABOVE LeBron in that area. There's no answer for a guy who can post up, hit the mid-range, hit the 3, can ball fake anyone, AND can make Steve Nash-ish passes. Plus, his first step was stupid quick. Man I miss the old TMac:cry:

You make a good point about LeBron from 03-07. He definitely didn't have shooters around him and his playmaking was clearly different. I forgot about that.

[PowerGlove]

I miss prime T-mac.:cry: I loved his fluid, aesthetically pleasing game. It was poetry in motion. I wished he and carter stayed together. I dont even care if they both left, I just wanted to see them together.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I miss prime T-mac.:cry: I loved his fluid, aesthetically pleasing game. It was poetry in motion. I wished he and carter stayed together. I dont even care if they both left, I just wanted to see them together.
I don't think Carter and VC together would've really worked, honestly.

McGrady going to Orland was what let his game flourish into "T-Mac"

[PowerGlove]

I don't think Carter and VC together would've really worked, honestly.

McGrady going to Orland was what let his game flourish into "T-Mac"

Probably not, but its always been something I've wanted to see. You didnt need much in the East back then to go far.

[Papaya Petee]

Nah, Wade and LeBron much more efficient, better defensive duo, and individually just as good or better.

Kobe wouldn't handle playing with another dude as good as him. Plus T-Mac isn't a winner.

[PowerGlove]

Nah, Wade and LeBron much more efficient, better defensive duo, and individually just as good or better.

Kobe wouldn't handle playing with another dude as good as him. Plus T-Mac isn't a winner.
:facepalm

Dude always raised his level of play in the playoffs. I'll never forget the playoff game where him and Yao scored like 70% of the Rockets points against the Jazz. That was the most disgusting performance from a supporting cast I have seen in some time.

Excuse me.... 74.6%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200704260UTA.html

[The Iron Fist]

Nah, Wade and LeBron much more efficient, better defensive duo, and individually just as good or better.

Kobe wouldn't handle playing with another dude as good as him. Plus T-Mac isn't a winner.
So Shaq wasn't all that good eh?

[KenneBell]

"...knowing how to run a good fast break is a skill. So is busting your hump and getting out on the wing and filling the lane at the proper angle...

Knowing how to rub off a defender when you use a pick is a skill. Knowing how to feel a defender with your body and read the court to see where help is coming from is a skill. Knowing how to stay in control, pace yourself, and not use all of your energy too early or give away all of your tricks, that's a skill. Setting solid picks and knowing how to get yourself open from them; knowing how to hit a guy with a pass the exact moment he frees himself and how to get him the ball in a place and at a time that allows him to shoot in rhythm; getting position low on the post; boxing out; playing solid man-to-man defense while also knowing where the ball is-- those are skills."

I think Kobe does all of those things described in that quote very well. I can't say the same for the others.

[G-Funk]

Firstly, it is completely impossible to dominate the NBA in the 21st century with only athleticism. If one could, then players such as Gerald Green, Stromile Swift, and James White would be stars. Some level of skill must be present. Lebron and Wade are both athletic and skilled.

Secondly I laugh all the time at arguments that certain players are not legitimately good or not as good as others because they use their athletic advantages. Ummm...Isn't basketball an "ATHLETIC" competition? Aren't the players called...ATHLETES? So now an athlete using athleticism is supposed to be a bad thing...OKaaaay? Basketball is not darts or chess. It's not a sport based totally on skill. 9 times out of 10 some level of athleticism is required whether it's speed, quickness, strength, jumping ability, or endurance.

Finally there are more skills to the game than just having a nice jumper and low post footwork. Let's face it. In most discussions today, that's basically what a poster is thinking when he says that player A is more skilled than player B. I'll just let Oscar Robertson, who was arguably the most fundamentally skilled player ever, give his perspective on what constitutes basketball skills:

"...knowing how to run a good fast break is a skill. So is busting your hump and getting out on the wing and filling the lane at the proper angle...

Knowing how to rub off a defender when you use a pick is a skill. Knowing how to feel a defender with your body and read the court to see where help is coming from is a skill. Knowing how to stay in control, pace yourself, and not use all of your energy too early or give away all of your tricks, that's a skill. Setting solid picks and knowing how to get yourself open from them; knowing how to hit a guy with a pass the exact moment he frees himself and how to get him the ball in a place and at a time that allows him to shoot in rhythm; getting position low on the post; boxing out; playing solid man-to-man defense while also knowing where the ball is-- those are skills."

http://books.google.com/books?id=fs6IXDF80WEC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=Knowing+how+to+rub+off+a+defender+when+you+use+ a+pick+is+a+skill.++Knowing+how+to+feel+a+defender +with+your+body+and+read+the+court+to+see+where+he lp+is+coming+from+is+a+skill&source=bl&ots=7sChOUS55U&sig=RriVaCiL3v_UsYu1sPfnh6FSCo0&hl=en&ei=SC0fTvSQEOfm0QGImaHGAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Knowing%20how%20to%20rub%20off%20a%20defender%20 when%20you%20use%20a%20pick%20is%20a%20skill.%20%2 0Knowing%20how%20to%20feel%20a%20defender%20with%2 0your%20body%20and%20read%20the%20court%20to%20see %20where%20help%20is%20coming%20from%20is%20a%20sk ill&f=false



yeah, yeah...every player in the NBA is atheletic, some more then others. Prime T-mac & Kobe were very athletic, and Wade and Lebron are really skilled just not at the level of T-mac/Kobe

[I.R.Beast]

Watch run down Tmac in Detroit. He has better court vision and passing skills than Lebron will ever have. Drive and kick every possession to rack up assists does not equal better playmaking ability.

Don't even need to bring up Tmac in his prime.


i agree. T-mac pre-fall had the best vision of all the superstar swing men...T-Mac was a beast...it's a shame he couldnt stay healthy...I'm still hope that he can be good this coming season(if it comes)

[Theoo's Daddy]

yeah, yeah...every player in the NBA is atheletic, some more then others. Prime T-mac & Kobe were very athletic, and Wade and Lebron are really skilled just not at the level of T-mac/Kobe


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: This is some funny shit.

[Heavincent]

Kobe wouldn't handle playing with another dude as good as him. Plus T-Mac isn't a winner.

Shaq would like a word with you.

And it's not like Lebron is a winner. At least not right now he's not.

[thejumpa]

Nah, Wade and LeBron much more efficient, better defensive duo, and individually just as good or better.

Kobe wouldn't handle playing with another dude as good as him. Plus T-Mac isn't a winner.

:oldlol: @you or anyone acting like Kobe couldn't play with TMac. News flash...they are really good friends and for years trained in the offseason together. Even now, they laugh and joke around on the court. It's laughable to think they couldn't co-exist together. As for defense, Kobe was once a lockdown defender. Man or help. TMac was never on his level, but I have no doubt that would have come playing next to a guy like Kobe.

BTW who cares if he never got out of the 1st round. At the end of the day, talent is talent and skill is skill. Prime Kobe+TMac could have gone down as the greatest duo of all time. lol they would dominate...

[lefthook00]

Notice how well he plays off the ball? Better than Kobe and LeBron and Wade at that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0h0A8kiAk

Against the Cavs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVY3boYcNAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOQPgeLm7AM(great playmaker, also just plain sick game highlights)

Rare Magic Clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNhgbzKkTw

[catch24]

2003 Tmac would carve LeBron up for 45+... easily.

[RazorBaLade]

:oldlol: @you or anyone acting like Kobe couldn't play with TMac. News flash...they are really good friends and for years trained in the offseason together. Even now, they laugh and joke around on the court. It's laughable to think they couldn't co-exist together. As for defense, Kobe was once a lockdown defender. Man or help. TMac was never on his level, but I have no doubt that would have come playing next to a guy like Kobe.

BTW who cares if he never got out of the 1st round. At the end of the day, talent is talent and skill is skill. Prime Kobe+TMac could have gone down as the greatest duo of all time. lol they would dominate...

seriously if theres anyone kobe could flawlessly coexist with its a tmac,vc,gasol type personality

[Rojogaqu11]

Prime Kobe and prime Tmac would be a better duo than Lebron and Wade.

Kobe and Tmac:
3ptrs, mid-range, post ups, free throws, height, rebounds, man-to-man defense, clutch, winning, chucking, injuries

Lebron and Wade:
Slashing, passing, strength, steals, blocks, flops, turnovers, choking, fake injuries

[G-Funk]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: This is some funny shit.
:rolleyes:

[PJR]

Man, I guess some of y'all dudes are suckers for deep shooting range and "bad shot" makers. I simply don't understand why Mcgrady is held in such high regard on here. Dude didn't elevate a single team to playoff series victory. Not a single one. That sh*t is hard to do, man.. Yea, he played with crap in Orlando, and put up numbers. But not ONE time? I mean just mentioning guys in that era.... Paul Pierce did. Iverson did. Hell, even Vince did. McGrady? Never.

"Tmac" is overrated to me. But that's just me.

[lefthook00]

Man, I guess some of y'all dudes are suckers for deep shooting range and "bad shot" makers. I simply don't understand why Mcgrady is held in such high regard on here. Dude didn't elevate a single team to playoff series victory. Not a single one. That sh*t is hard to do, man.. Yea, he played with crap in Orlando, and put up numbers. But not ONE time? I mean just mentioning guys in that era.... Paul Pierce did. Iverson did. Hell, even Vince did. McGrady? Never.

"Tmac" is overrated to me. But that's just me.

He wouldn't be the only one responsible for that if he was playing with Kobe. It's such a shame that Yao and T-Mac couldn't stay healthy. That would have been crazy.

[MaxFly]

2003 Kobe Bryant: 30.0/6.9/5.9
2003 Tracy McGrady: 32.1/6.5/5.5

Obviously their numbers would look different if they were playing together, but that duo would be hard to beat... extremely hard to beat. Replace D. Wade and LeBron from last year with those two and the Heat win a championship.

[MontaEllis24]

kobe and ORL tmac thats crazy 2 of them would be on highlight reel every week.

[wang4three]

I miss prime T-mac

Co-sign.

[Ikill]

There all really close Lebrons the best Wade Tmac and Kobe are tied

[Ikill]

:oldlol: @you or anyone acting like Kobe couldn't play with TMac. News flash...they are really good friends and for years trained in the offseason together. Even now, they laugh and joke around on the court. It's laughable to think they couldn't co-exist together. As for defense, Kobe was once a lockdown defender. Man or help. TMac was never on his level, but I have no doubt that would have come playing next to a guy like Kobe.

BTW who cares if he never got out of the 1st round. At the end of the day, talent is talent and skill is skill. Prime Kobe+TMac could have gone down as the greatest duo of all time. lol they would dominate...
Lebron and Wade are really good friends too

[KenneBell]

There all really close Lebrons the best Wade Tmac and Kobe are tied
Not really.

[tpols]

There all really close Lebrons the best Wade Tmac and Kobe are tied
:oldlol:

Not at all.. ranking purely as basketball players and not accomplishments/accolades based on prime/peak:

1a. Lebron
1b. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Tmac

[tpols]

Lebron and Wade are really good friends too
And Lebron and Wade were instant title competitors and favorites in their first year playing with each other.. what's your point? You're pretty much proving what the guy you quoted said.

[Ikill]

Not really.
my opinion but what don't you agree with

[thejumpa]

There all really close Lebrons the best Wade Tmac and Kobe are tied

It's LBJ+Wade vs TMac+Kobe...not who's better individually. In that case, it depends on what you want on your team. I'll take a prime Lebron over everyone but there's no right answer. Each are elite, once in a lifetime type of players.


Lebron and Wade are really good friends too

And they mesh....pretty well for only being together one year. That being said, their games would probably be harder to mesh than Kobe and TMac. With them, they would get a shitload of easy baskets...jumpers, floaters...not just dunks even though both are what most would say "freakish" athletes.

[thejumpa]

And Lebron and Wade were instant title competitors and favorites in their first year playing with each other.. what's your point? You're pretty much proving what the guy you quoted said.

:oldlol: I was like "this dude just agreed with me and didn't even know it"

[Ikill]

:oldlol: I was like "this dude just agreed with me and didn't even know it"
:oldlol: :facepalm

[amfirst]

I can definitely see Prime Kobe + T-Mac on the 2011 Heats schooling the Mavs. Unlike LeBron and Wade laying a egg.

[amfirst]

No way LeBron's prime is better than Kobe. Kobe's prime is dropping 81 points, 63 in 3 quarters and multiple 40 points game in a row.

LeBron's prime is being pared with Wade who is a better player and stinking it up in the finals when he has way better team mates.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Wade has skills too.
LeBron's a little clumsy, he's fast like a freight train, not quick like a snake(Mamba) that can change directions easily. That;s the difference.

[RazorBaLade]

do ppl honestly believe bron has been better than 06 kobe?

[Jacks3]

:oldlol:

Not at all.. ranking purely as basketball players and not accomplishments/accolades based on prime/peak:

1a. Lebron
1b. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Tmac
This..

[catch24]

:oldlol:

Not at all.. ranking purely as basketball players and not accomplishments/accolades based on prime/peak:

1a. Lebron
1b. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Tmac

Prime T-Mac (2002-05), IMO, was just as good as Wade. Nearly as good of a playmaker and defender, better rebounder, better in crunchtime, and like Kobe, a more polished scorer.

[G-Funk]

Prime T-Mac (2002-05), IMO, was just as good as Wade. Nearly as good of a playmaker and defender, better rebounder, better in crunchtime, and like Kobe, a more polished scorer.
This :oldlol:

[catch24]

This :oldlol:

Dude was putting up similar numbers to '08-10 Kobe during the postseason:

2002 Playoffs - 31/6/6 on 55% TS
2003 Playoffs - 32/7/5 on 56% TS
2005 playoffs - 31/7/7 on 56% TS

:eek:

[G-Funk]

Dude was putting up similar numbers to '08-10 Kobe during the postseason:

2002 Playoffs - 31/6/6 on 55% TS
2003 Playoffs - 32/7/5 on 56% TS
2005 playoffs - 31/7/7 on 56% TS

:eek:
swag :pimp:....what are Wades best season stats?