Kobe's all-time rank....

[The-Legend-24]

In your opinion where would Kobe rank if out of 7 finals he's been too... if he had 2 epic/dominating finals series , and one great series? Does he move up the ranking or stay the same?

Discuss.

[InspiredLebowski]

Who cares? What if Charlotte says eat a dick Kobe, you 18 year old prima donna, we drafted you and you're playing here. What then?

[Andrei89]

dominating finals?

which ones?

[N0Skillz]

Who cares? What if Charlotte says eat a dick Kobe, you 18 year old prima donna, we drafted you and you're playing here. What then?


Then he would have won 10 straight CHAMPIONSHIPS
and you would be like. KOBEH I LOVES YOU

[Bring-Your-Js]

It would've done absolute wonders. People who don't believe Jordans 1991-1993 Finals have a MASSIVE impact on his legacy are fooling themselves... THE SWITCH. THE SHRUG. THE DOUBLE NICKEL. you shitting me? If Jordan won six championships playing like he did in the 96 Finals, a ton of luster is lost. The problem for Kobe is Jordans 96 Finals are his norm.

If he destroyed '04 Detroit or '08 Boston..... :facepalm

[The-Legend-24]

It would've done absolute wonders. People who don't believe Jordans 1991-1993 Finals have a MASSIVE impact on his legacy are fooling themselves... THE SWITCH. THE SHRUG. THE DOUBLE NICKEL. you shitting me? If Jordan won six championships playing like he did in the 96 Finals, a ton of luster is lost. The problem for Kobe is Jordans 96 Finals are his norm.

If he destroyed '04 Detroit or '08 Boston..... :facepalm
Wait, what were MJs averages in those finals? wasn't it like 27-5-6 on like 43%?
i could be wrong.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Wait, what were MJs averages in those finals? wasn't it like 27-5-6 on like 43%?
i could be wrong.

1991: 31.2 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 11.4 APG, 55.8%FG
1992: 35.8 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 6.5 APG, 52.6%FG
1993: 41.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, 50.8%FG

[gengiskhan]

Top 12 all time (Top 15 guaranteed).

Had he played in '80s or '90s, Top 20 - 25 all time (neck & neck equal of drexler)

Kobe is very lucky unlike Iverson, Wade, Lebron. Played with NBAs winningest organization & won 3 rings at very young age by playing under the most unstoppable dominant center of '00 era Shaq.

Guys like Drexler, Barkley could easily envy.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Yea those finals performances pretty much cemented his legacy imo.

It's an absurd standard.

Kobe can't win no matter what, really. I thought he dominated the 2009 Finals more than what his 5-game field goal percentage indicates. It was against the No. 1 defense in the league. So what do people choose to make of it? Well, "the perimeter defense was weak" (not even true). Yet, if he'd gone up against an elite perimeter defender and done the same against a lower tier defensive team they'd say "they were a weak team defense". It's pathetic at times.

Respect and Learn about the game, that's all I can say. A lot of hate Kobe gets stems from people getting upset over a few fanboys TRASHING legends to prop their favorite player. It goes both ways, though.

Kobe is not Jordan. He doesnt have to be. He's a legend and all time great in his own right. That isn't debatable.

[DMAVS41]

It's an absurd standard.

Kobe can't win no matter what, really. I thought he dominated the 2009 Finals more than what his 5-game field goal percentage indicates. It was against the No. 1 defense in the league. So what do people choose to make of it? Well, "the perimeter defense was weak" (not even true). Yet, if he'd gone up against an elite perimeter defender and done the same against a lower tier defensive team they'd say "they were a weak team defense". It's pathetic at times.

Respect and Learn about the game, that's all I can say. A lot of hate Kobe gets stems from people getting upset over a few fanboys TRASHING legends to prop their favorite player. It goes both ways, though.

Kobe is not Jordan. He doesnt have to be. He's a legend and all time great in his own right. That isn't debatable.

Some things are fair. Some things aren't.

However, the truth is that Kobe has played something like 40 NBA finals games and he's scored 25 ppg on 41% shooting. There is really nothing wrong with that if it was just a normal player, but this is Kobe. He's being compared (and rightfully so) to some of the best players ever. His performances in the finals have been lackluster overall and its a testament to his team strength that he's won 5 titles given his overall performance on the biggest stage.

How a player performs on the biggest stage matters a lot in the company Kobe is in. And Kobes' performances hurt him a little. Its just the way it is. Imagine MJ playing horribly in game 6 in 98 and Pippen getting the steal and making the game winner. Of course that takes some of the luster off MJ's legacy.

Finals play matters. A lot actually in my opinion. Its why I don't rank Bird over Magic. Its why I have a very hard time ranking Kobe even with or ahead of Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem. Those guys all played some of their best basketball on the biggest stage. Kobe, on the other hand, has played some of his worst playoff basketball on that stage.


Is it fair? Not completely, but you are kidding yourself if you don't think people would view Kobe differently if he shot 48% in the finals for his career rather than 41% and had some dominant performances.

Imagine how differently Kobe would be ranked all time if last year in game 7 he went 12-24 and made the biggest shot of the game or something.

It was a huge difference. You'll notice that people here had Kobe around 8 to 10 before last year. After winning another title and another finals MVP? People have him in the exact same spot. Simply because he played an average series yet again and then came up really small in one of the biggest games of his career.

If that changed, you'd see Kobe ranked higher.

[Calabis]

In your opinion where would Kobe rank if out of 7 finals he's been too... if he had 2 epic/dominating finals series , and one great series? Does he move up the ranking or stay the same?

Discuss.

He would probably be in my Top 5

[jlauber]

Most fans forget that Kobe has been a great PLAYOFF performer. True, he really hasn't had his signature Finals (although he has won two FMVPs), but, he has had more than his share of playoff greatness. Take a look at all of the San Antonio series' throughout the 00's...Kobe was the BEST player on the floor in the majority of them.

Personally, I have Kobe at #8, and ahead of Bird and Hakeem. Bird may have had a slightly higher peak, and performed slightly better overall in his Finals, but Kobe's longer career play, and more team success elevates him in my opinion. And, Hakeem, while brilliant in two post-season runs, did not had the regular season career, nor the post-season team success that Kobe has had. And Hakeem played for 18 seasons, too. I really don't have a problem with those that would rank either ahead of Kobe, but they have to at least acknowledge that Kobe is right there with them.

[ImmortalD24]

Can someone ban this clown?

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Can someone ban this clown?
Which one?


Who cares? What if Charlotte says eat a dick Kobe, you 18 year old prima donna, we drafted you and you're playing here. What then?
:lol

[ImmortalD24]

The OP. Annoying little stan.

[All Net]

I have Kobe about 7th or 8th right now all time but some of his finals performances have hurt him abit in terms of the all time greats. He's had two great series, one pretty good one and a bunch of average ones. That is what separates him from the top 3-5. Still depends how he finishes his career he can still climb up a little

[millwad]

I have Kobe about 7th or 8th right now all time but some of his finals performances have hurt him abit in terms of the all time greats. He's had two great series, one pretty good one and a bunch of average ones. That is what separates him from the top 3-5. Still depends how he finishes his career he can still climb up a little

I have Kobe around top 10 but top 3-5 is not a rank he deserves. A top 3 or top 5 guy ever isn't a place deserved by the 2nd best player on his team during 3 championshipruns.

[Heavincent]

It was a huge difference. You'll notice that people here had Kobe around 8 to 10 before last year. After winning another title and another finals MVP? People have him in the exact same spot. Simply because he played an average series yet again and then came up really small in one of the biggest games of his career.


But a lot of people on here are idiots and don't know what they're talking about. Lets listen to someone who has a credible opinion like Charles Barkley.

Charles Barkley in 09: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQkYxfenDHA

Barkley in November of 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmhzDca63yg

[DMAVS41]

But a lot of people on here are idiots and don't know what they're talking about. Lets listen to someone who has a credible opinion like Charles Barkley.

Charles Barkley in 09: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQkYxfenDHA

Barkley in November of 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmhzDca63yg

Didn't Barkley rank Oscar Robertson 2nd all time? Not sure that is very credible as there is really no way you can argue that at all.

Sorry, Kobe really has no argument in the top 5 all time.

[Heavincent]

Sorry, Kobe really has no argument in the top 5 all time.

Sure he does. Personally, I have him at either 6 or 7. But putting Kobe at #5 isn't far-fetched or crazy.

Barkley knows his shit, and he's not a "what have you done for me lately?" type of guy.

[STATUTORY]

Sorry, Kobe really has no argument in the top 5 all time.

i like how you state that like fact. trolling 101 :applause:

[DMAVS41]

i like how you state that like fact. trolling 101 :applause:

Well, I didn't state it as a fact. I said he doesn't have much of an argument. Which is just true.

There are no facts in player rankings. I could rank Duncan as the GOAT and nobody can factually say I'm wrong.

I personally feel Kobe is not a top 5 player and I don't the arguments you would use to put him in the top 5 would stand up to scrutiny.

[Heavincent]

Well, I didn't state it as a fact. I said he doesn't have much of an argument. Which is just true.

There are no facts in player rankings. I could rank Duncan as the GOAT and nobody can factually say I'm wrong.

I personally feel Kobe is not a top 5 player and I don't the arguments you would use to put him in the top 5 would stand up to scrutiny.

When you look at what he has accomplished in his career, he absolutely has a case for top 5.

[DMAVS41]

When you look at what he has accomplished in his career, he absolutely has a case for top 5.

I disagree.

I don't really understand the logic of ranking Kobe over:

MJ
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem

It depends on how you rank players and what you value to a certain extent.

But what is the case? Would you pick Kobe over any of the above players to start a franchise? I highly doubt it.

[Odinn]

When you look at what he has accomplished in his career, he absolutely has a case for top 5.
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt

Top 6 is done. Kobe's resume doesn't have a case for top 5.

[catch24]

When you look at what he has accomplished in his career, he absolutely has a case for top 5.

When you put individual play and accomplishments into perspective, Kobe really has no case over Magic, Wilt, Russell, Jabbar or Jordan.

[necya]

But a lot of people on here are idiots and don't know what they're talking about.

i feel the same when i read your posts.

this forum will be interesting when people will learn the history of basketball (stop saying kobe put 55pts on MJ for exemple, kobe put 55 on the wizards would be more accurate...) then stop using statistics to compare players and finally view this sport as what he has alalways been, a TEAM sport.

there are a few of (very) good posters here with strong knowledges and objectivity, but unfortunately they don't post often... thing i understand though.

[pauk]

1 jordan
2 wilt
3 kareem
4 russell
5 bird
6 shaq
7 magic
8 oscar
9 hakeem
10 duncan
11 jerry west
12 julius erving
13 john havlicek
14 kobe bryant <---------

thats where he belongs right now.... if he wasnt a 2nd fiddle and didnt get everything handed to him on a silverplate in his 3 first championships by Shaq......... then he would probably be top 10 easily

[Heavincent]

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt

Top 6 is done. Kobe's resume doesn't have a case for top 5.

I have a tough time determining who is better between Kobe and Bird. That's why I said 6 OR 7. It's just very, very close IMO.

I don't understand this forum. People put Kobe between 8-10, but then they think I'm crazy when I put him at 6 or 7.

[pauk]

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
shaq
duncan
hakeem
oscar
jerry west
julius erving

Top 12 is done. Kobe's resume doesn't have a case for top 12.

fixed

[pauk]

I have a tough time determining who is better between Kobe and Bird. That's why I said 6 OR 7. It's just very, very close IMO..

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i477/umad91/gif%20reactions/blackbertstare.gif

[Heavincent]

Pauk, do you ever have remotely rational thoughts?

[catch24]

fixed

Having fun there sh0wtime? Wanna know an ironic fact about these "troll posts"? At least you're being yourself.

:cheers:

[pauk]

Pauk, do you ever have remotely rational thoughts?

a kobetard who thinks kobe is better or as good as bird.... says that i am not rational because i disagree with him................... :facepalm

[pauk]

im a butthurt kobetard

https://static.flashback.org/img/avatar/14/60435.jpg

[catch24]

https://static.flashback.org/img/avatar/14/60435.jpg

Ok, Sh0wtime.

[game3524]

1 jordan
2 wilt
3 kareem
4 russell
5 bird
6 shaq
7 magic
8 oscar
9 hakeem
10 duncan
11 jerry west
12 julius erving
13 john havlicek
14 kobe bryant <---------

thats where he belongs right now.... if he wasnt a 2nd fiddle and didnt get everything handed to him on a silverplate in his 3 first championships by Shaq......... then he would probably be top 10 easily

If that is the case then why is Magic in the top ten?

[IGOTGAME]

a kobetard who thinks kobe is better or as good as bird.... says that i am not rational because i disagree with him................... :facepalm

they are very comparable career wise. Plus remember that Kobe isnt done yet.

[All Net]

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell

All the only players I would rank over Kobe in the all-time lists. But certainly wouldn't bash somebody for taking Duncan over him but still. You could swap Kobe with Bird to be ranked 7th IMO.

[game3524]

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell

All the only players I would rank over Kobe in the all-time lists. But certainly wouldn't bash somebody for taking Duncan over him but still. You could swap Kobe with Bird to be ranked 7th IMO.

Kobe is going to be ahead of Shaq when he decides to hang them up.

[jlauber]

If that is the case then why is Magic in the top ten?

Magic as a "second fiddle"? Are you kidding me?????

Magic won THREE Finals MVPs, and it SHOULD have been FOUR (take a look at his play in the '88 Finals...he was CLEARLY better than Worthy.) And, BTW, Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting in EIGHT of their TEN seasons together (the last eight.) Even in '80, it was MAGIC who came through in the clinching game six on the road in the Finals...with Kareem watching from his couch.

Then, ask yourself this...where were the Lakers BEFORE Magic? Then, how well did they do AFTER Kareem? Then finally, what was their record AFTER Magic? BTW, you could make the argument that they won the title in '88 DESPITE Kareem (who was simply AWFUL in the post-season, and even WORSE in the Finals.) And I honestly believe the '87 Lakers would have won a title sans Kareem, as well (Green and Thompson playing more minutes would have done well enough.)

Give me a break!

[necya]

they are very comparable career wise. Plus remember that Kobe isnt done yet.

what a ****ing career resume has to do with it ?
Kobe has not the half of the understanding of this sport Bird has.

damn, when people will understand that kobe has never been and will never be a better player of basketball than Bird.

you got game ? :facepalm

[All Net]

Kobe is going to be ahead of Shaq when he decides to hang them up.

Depends how he finishes his career...what Kobe does the next two years with this Laker team will decide alot.

[game3524]

Magic as a "second fiddle"? Are you kidding me?????

Magic won THREE Finals MVPs, and it SHOULD have been FOUR (take a look at his play in the '88 Finals...he was CLEARLY better than Worthy.) And, BTW, Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting in EIGHT of their TEN seasons together (the last eight.) Even in '80, it was MAGIC who came through in the clinching game six on the road in the Finals...with Kareem watching from his couch.

Then, ask yourself this...where were the Lakers BEFORE Magic? Then, how well did they do AFTER Kareem? Then finally, what was their record AFTER Magic?

Give me a break!

Magic became the guy in 87, prior to that it was still Kareem's "team". I love Magic, and he is one of my favorite players of all-time. I just found hypocritical that the OP was holding it against Bryant for being drafted into a good situation, when Magic was drafted to an already great team.

[EricForman]

My list

Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Zeke. So I have Kobe at 9.

I already know people will have questions, let me debunk them now.

"Bird over Magic? Even though Magic has two more rings?"

Damn straight. Bird was never at any point NOT the best player on his team. You could make a case Magic didn't become the best player on his team until his 4th or 5th year. The West was also significantly weaker during the 80s, while Magic was battling the Rolando Blackman led Mavericks and Tom Chambers led Sonics, Bird was going against Doctor J, Jordan, the bad boy Pistons, etc. Throw in Magic's slight edge in supporting cast (he does have Kareem, the #2 all time, afterall), that more than explains the two title gap.

"No Oscar Robertson but you have Isiah?"

Isiah is mad underrated. He went against, and BEAT, Magic, Bird, and Jordan at some point in the 80s. Won two titles as the best player on his team and came absurdly close to winning a third (about as close as anyone has come to a title without winning, actually). Oscar Robertson has one ring and he won that as the second best player on his team. Triple double is cool and all but EVERYONE who was good had CRAZY numbers in that era. You had Jerry Lucas, a 6'7 white guy, dropping 19 and 18 a night for like three straight years.

"Shaq and Duncan over Kobe? YOU HATER!!"

No Kobe stans, it's the truth. Shaq was undisputedly the best player on the three Laker title teams, with the gap the first year being WIDE. Duncan has never won less than 50 games and has four rings, at least three as the best player. And don't give me that Duncan has more help bullsh*t, Kobe fans. Compile a list of teammates Kobe and Duncan has ever played with and check it out. Count the all stars on both sides. Check the big names. The Laker list is longer. Fact. Also Duncan's 2003 and 99 cast was average enough that it takes any credibility away from the BS "Duncan has more help than Kobe" argument.

So yeah. Kobe's at 9 for me. He could climb up to top 5 if he gets a six or seventh ring. It's possible.

[All Net]

My list

Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Zeke. So I have Kobe at 9.

I already know people will have questions, let me debunk them now.

"Bird over Magic? Even though Magic has two more rings?"

Damn straight. Bird was never at any point NOT the best player on his team. You could make a case Magic didn't become the best player on his team until his 4th or 5th year. The West was also significantly weaker during the 80s, while Magic was battling the Rolando Blackman led Mavericks and Tom Chambers led Sonics, Bird was going against Doctor J, Jordan, the bad boy Pistons, etc. Throw in Magic's slight edge in supporting cast (he does have Kareem, the #2 all time, afterall), that more than explains the two title gap.

"No Oscar Robertson but you have Isiah?"

Isiah is mad underrated. He went against, and BEAT, Magic, Bird, and Jordan at some point in the 80s. Won two titles as the best player on his team and came absurdly close to winning a third (about as close as anyone has come to a title without winning, actually). Oscar Robertson has one ring and he won that as the second best player on his team. Triple double is cool and all but everyone had insane numbers back in the days--you had 6'7 white folks dropping 18/14 a night.

"Shaq and Duncan over Kobe? YOU HATER!!"

No Kobe stans, it's the truth. Shaq was undisputedly the best player on the three Laker title teams, with the gap the first year being WIDE. Duncan has never won less than 50 games and has four rings, at least three as the best player. And don't give me that Duncan has more help bullsh*t, Kobe fans. Compile a list of teammates Kobe and Duncan has ever played with and check it out. Count the all stars on both sides. Check the big names. The Laker list is longer. Fact. Also Duncan's 2003 and 99 cast was average enough that it takes any credibility away from the BS "Duncan has more help than Kobe" argument.

So yeah. Kobe's at 9 for me. He could climb up to top 5 if he gets a six or seventh ring. It's possible.

I don't see anything clearly wrong with your post.

I wouldn't take Duncan over Kobe but have no problem with people who do but Zeke in the top 10? don't see that one to be honest.

[game3524]

I don't see how anyone can put Isiah over Oscar, even though Oscar's numbers are inflated due to pace. When you adjust them he is still a 25/8/7 player, which are Lebron numbers.

Zeke is great, but I wouldn't have him ahead of Oscar, or Jerry West to be honest.

[EricForman]

I don't see anything clearly wrong with your post.

I wouldn't take Duncan over Kobe but have no problem with people who do but Zeke in the top 10? don't see that one to be honest.


I already explained my case. He won two titles (and came about as close to a third as humanly possible) in the 80s AGAINST Bird, Magic, and Jordan. The three biggest legends of last few decades, Zeke went at, and BEAT.

And it wasn't like Zeke had more help too (except for against Jordan, of course). Magic and Bird had tons of help.

No one I left out of the top ten can even touch that in terms of basketball accomplishment. Not Oscar, not Jerry West, etc.

[jlauber]

My list

Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Zeke. So I have Kobe at 9.

I already know people will have questions, let me debunk them now.

"Bird over Magic? Even though Magic has two more rings?"

Damn straight. Bird was never at any point NOT the best player on his team. You could make a case Magic didn't become the best player on his team until his 4th or 5th year. The West was also significantly weaker during the 80s, while Magic was battling the Rolando Blackman led Mavericks and Tom Chambers led Sonics, Bird was going against Doctor J, Jordan, the bad boy Pistons, etc. Throw in Magic's slight edge in supporting cast (he does have Kareem, the #2 all time, afterall), that more than explains the two title gap.

"No Oscar Robertson but you have Isiah?"

Isiah is mad underrated. He went against, and BEAT, Magic, Bird, and Jordan at some point in the 80s. Won two titles as the best player on his team and came absurdly close to winning a third (about as close as anyone has come to a title without winning, actually). Oscar Robertson has one ring and he won that as the second best player on his team. Triple double is cool and all but EVERYONE who was good had CRAZY numbers in that era. You had Jerry Lucas, a 6'7 white guy, dropping 19 and 18 a night for like three straight years.

"Shaq and Duncan over Kobe? YOU HATER!!"

No Kobe stans, it's the truth. Shaq was undisputedly the best player on the three Laker title teams, with the gap the first year being WIDE. Duncan has never won less than 50 games and has four rings, at least three as the best player. And don't give me that Duncan has more help bullsh*t, Kobe fans. Compile a list of teammates Kobe and Duncan has ever played with and check it out. Count the all stars on both sides. Check the big names. The Laker list is longer. Fact. Also Duncan's 2003 and 99 cast was average enough that it takes any credibility away from the BS "Duncan has more help than Kobe" argument.

So yeah. Kobe's at 9 for me. He could climb up to top 5 if he gets a six or seventh ring. It's possible.

I get so tired of reading about how Bird had to go thru the "tougher" Eastern Conference. First of all, take a look at the first three seasons in the league. Magic's Lakers handled the Sixers pretty easily in '80 and '82 (hell, they won a clinching game, on the road, withOUT Kareem for cryingoutloud.) And in '81, Magic was playing injured, and they were stunned in a best-of-three series by the 40-42 Rockets. How about Boston in those three years? In '80, Philly routed Boston, 4-1 (and here again, Magic led LA to a relatively easy 4-2 series win.) In '81, Boston was down 3-1, and had to win three straight games by 2, 2, and 1 point.) Then, let's not act like Bird was great in that Finals (15.3 ppg on .419 shooting.) In '82 Boston lost to Philly, 4-3...while the Lakers handled the Sixers 4-2 (with Magic again winning the FMVP.) In '83 Boston was SWEPT by the inferior Bucks, while Magic's Lakers were swept by the Sixers in the Finals (but they were close in three of those losses, and Worthy did not play in that series.) In '84...ok, Boston won the Finals against LA, 4-3, but those that actually watched that series, including Bird himself, would tell you that the Lakers should have SWEPT Boston. In '85, the Lakers beat Boston 4-2, winning the deciding game on Boston's home floor (and four of the last five games.) In '86, the Rockets shocked LA, but Boston's road to the Finals wasn't overly difficult. They beat a 30-52 Bulls team. Then they beat a 50-32 Hawks team. And then they knocked off a 57-25 Bucks team. I will give you THAT season, though. From that season, Magic's Lakers played FAR better in the post-season than ANY of Bird's teams...including a dominating romp over Boston in '87 (three of their four wins were routs.) And in '88, while Bird was shooting .351 against the Pistons in a playoff series loss, Magic averaged 22 ppg on .550 shooting against that same Piston team in leading LA to a title.

H2H, and in post-season play overall, Magic was a better player than Bird.

[Horatio33]

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Duncan
West
Kobe
Wilt
Oscar

In order, thats my list.

[jlauber]

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Duncan
West
Kobe
Wilt
Oscar

In order, thats my list.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions...but just curious as to what criteria you could have used that, a) not have Shaq on this list, and b) have both Bird and West ranked ahead of Wilt?

[Stuckey]

fvck it, ima put zeke in my top 10 too

1 mike
2 kaj
3 wilt
4 russell
5 magic
6 bird
7 shaq
8 duncan
9 kobe
10 zeke

why not

[Samurai Swoosh]

1) Jordan
2) Kareem
3) Bird
4) Magic
5) Shaq
6) Kobe
7) Duncan
8) Isiah Thomas
9) Chamberlain
10) Russell

[Fatal9]

:roll: @ isiah being top 10 on so many lists.

[Samurai Swoosh]

:roll: @ isiah being top 10 on so many lists.
Before injuries the dude for like a 6 or 7 year span was ridiculous. And he lead the Pistons as their superstar player to back to back championships. I don't see what is so unreasonable about it, either. Magic Johnson is the best point forward of all-time, IMO ... Isiah Thomas is the best point guard of all-time. Chris Paul could've rivaled him IMO w/ the similar type of game and competitive nature they both share if it wasn't for injuries. All the off the court things is what made people hate him. His beef with Magic and leaking rumors Magic was gay, all the things he did on the Knicks. Truth is ... the guy is one of the best guards of all-time. A true leader and champion. Who wasn't just a cog in a championship machine, but was a back to back champions BEST player.

[ThaSwagg3r]

:roll: @ isiah being top 10 on so many lists.
Agreed. Isiah gets so overrated sometimes it is just ridiculous. Dude isn't even the third greatest PG of all-time. He was also super inefficient outside a span of 4 seasons. I'll take Chris Paul over Isiah Thomas any day of the week. Isiah has accomplished more which is why he is ranked higher, but Chris Paul was better in his prime.

[gengiskhan]

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Duncan
West
Kobe
Wilt
Oscar

In order, thats my list.

Hahahaha. :roll: :roll: Wilt after Kobe. :roll: :roll: Hakeem is not even in the list. :roll: :roll: Where is Shaq who gifted Kobe 3 rings. :roll: :roll:

faking Kobe'tards are like 10 yrs old kids.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Where is Shaq who gifted Kobe 3 rings.
That logic doesn't make sense, considering you'd have to subtract rings from Kareem or Magic. There is a blur on whose team it was. How come only Kobe gets critiqued for playing with another great player? You act like in 2001 Kobe didn't average 29 / 5 / 5 or in 2002 averaging 25 / 5 / 5 ... those aren't mere "sidekick" type numbers. Especially given he was the playmaker and go to go guy in clutch situations.

[gengiskhan]

1.MJ
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Magic
5.Bird
6.Hakeem
7.Russell
8.Shaq
9.West
10.Oscar or Duncan
11.Duncan or Oscar
12. Charles or Kobe

Kobe at best looks Top 12. He hasnt done enough to be Top 10. Cannot just put him in Top 10 because he already plays in weak NBA era & isnt much efficient.

[All Net]

That logic doesn't make sense, considering you'd have to subtract rings from Kareem or Magic. There is a blur on whose team it was. How come only Kobe gets critiqued for playing with another great player? You act like in 2001 Kobe didn't average 29 / 5 / 5 or in 2002 averaging 25 / 5 / 5 ... those aren't mere "sidekick" type numbers. Especially given he was the playmaker and go to go guy in clutch situations.

Trying to explain that to an idiot troll like him is pointless.

[gengiskhan]

That logic doesn't make sense, considering you'd have to subtract rings from Kareem or Magic. There is a blur on whose team it was. How come only Kobe gets critiqued for playing with another great player? You act like in 2001 Kobe didn't average 29 / 5 / 5 or in 2002 averaging 25 / 5 / 5 ... those aren't mere "sidekick" type numbers. Especially given he was the playmaker and go to go guy in clutch situations.

Yes they are sidekick like stats.

All attention & triple team was on Shaq & still ave 38ppg & tons of rebs. Kobe stats inflated cuz of that.

Opposition let Kobe score in order to shut down Shaq 2 feet away from basket. Still Shaq dominated & won 3 Finals MVPs like no other in his era.

Kobe was a good "side kick" no doubt. His stats inflated cuz of hack-a-shaq approach of finalists.

Its easy to score 25/5/5 when playing with most dominant big man of his era & all defensive focus on him.

Unlike Drexler who got 25+ ppg in finals series but he was prime option & all double triple team focus on him.

[Heavincent]

That logic doesn't make sense, considering you'd have to subtract rings from Kareem or Magic. There is a blur on whose team it was. How come only Kobe gets critiqued for playing with another great player? You act like in 2001 Kobe didn't average 29 / 5 / 5 or in 2002 averaging 25 / 5 / 5 ... those aren't mere "sidekick" type numbers. Especially given he was the playmaker and go to go guy in clutch situations.

Great post :applause:

I would agree that Kobe was a side-kick in 99-00, but 00-01 and 01-02? Nah. He wasn't the best player on the team, but like you said, he wasn't just a mere side-kick.

[raid09]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

Kobe is easily top 10. I only have him below Duncan because of their finals play and that Duncan was option 1a and 1b on all of his championship teams.

[gengiskhan]

Great post :applause:

I would agree that Kobe was a side-kick in 99-00, but 00-01 and 01-02? Nah. He wasn't the best player on the team, but like you said, he wasn't just a mere side-kick.

Kobe was a "good" sidekick no doubt. probably the best side kick a center can ask for.

BUT STILL A "SIDE KICK."

SHAQ's 2000-2002 Finals dominance is OFF THE FUKKKING CHART. The most dominant finals performance since 1991-1993 MJ. Kobe was merely an after thought in '00-''02 Shaq finals stats cuz he benefited enourmously from all defensive focus to stop shaq & send him to free throw line cuz he sucks at free throws.

Shaq's finals dominance alone puts him in Top 8 or even Top 7 GOATs well above Kobe.

Stupid kobe'tards need to get the taste of reality & grow a pair.

[tpols]

Kobe was a "good" sidekick no doubt. probably the best side kick a center can ask for.

BUT STILL A "SIDE KICK."
.
MJ would have been a sidekick to 2000-2002 Shaq also.:oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

I would agree that Kobe was a side-kick in 99-00, but 00-01 and 01-02? Nah. He wasn't the best player on the team, but like you said, he wasn't just a mere side-kick.
In 2000 he was a "Robin" for sure, a good one, but very much on the level of say a Scottie Pippen, Pau Gasol in their best years as a "sidekick" ...

Which really shows you the caliber player Kobe was. Even in his true "sidekick" year, he was as good as the best prototypical true beta type players the game has ever seen.

People fail to realize the restraint it takes when you're a true #1 caliber option, to have to mentally manipulate yourself to understand someone else should probably get first billing.

What Kobe did for a 3 - 4 year stretch knowing he'd be the "man" anywhere else, is quite impressive. The fact even though there was conflict, that it really didn't stop them from being a dominant team is astounding to me.

I love how he mentions Oscar Robertson, who was absolutely a sidekick when he finally won his ring ...

In 2001 and 2002? It was absolutely a two headed monster. A true duo. Sidekick's aren't the go to guy in the clutch, while averaging 29 / 5 / 5 and 25 / 5 / 5 on all-time great teams that roster wise were kind of lacking outside of the big two players on the team.

MJ wasn't giving the ball to Pippen in late game situations. Kobe wasn't giving it to Gasol to be the "guy" in late game situations, either. But somehow, it was usually Kobe making plays deep in ball games, per usual.

Also, I've never seen a "sidekick" alternate dominating series the way Shaq and Kobe often did in the playoffs.

[gengiskhan]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

Kobe is easily top 10. I only have him below Duncan because of their finals play and that Duncan was option 1a and 1b on all of his championship teams.

wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NBA MVPs: Hakeem 1, Kobe 1

Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Kobe 2 (Hakeem's clearly better cuz he beat arch rivals Ewing & Shaq. Kobe didnt even had any competition at SG in Wade. Kobe's finals MVP wins are very weak compared to Hakeem)

DPOY: Hakeem 2, Kobe 0. Hakeem also a Blocks leader for few yrs. Kobe Not even a top 5 steals leader in any year.

Hakeem clearly beats kobe. Hakeem Top 8 GOATs easily, Kobe Top 12 at best maybe even Top 15.

[gengiskhan]

MJ would have been a sidekick to 2000-2002 Shaq also.:oldlol:

Not when MJ ave 41ppg in finals a 3 more PPG ave to Shaq's 38ppg Dumb arse. :roll: :roll:

Kobe'tard OWNED!!! :applause: :applause:

[Samurai Swoosh]

MJ would have been a sidekick to 2000-2002 Shaq also.:oldlol:
Only from the perpesctive that it's best to work inside then outside on offense, given the closer you are to the basket, the higher percentage the shot. So yes, Jordan would've been probably option "B" on offense from a sheer simplicity angle of how to play the game. He wouldn't have been the lesser player however. And like Kobe in 2001 and 2002, Jordan would've been the critical player finishing off teams late in games. Thus not really being a "sidekick" at all.

[gengiskhan]

15 Full NBA Seasons & this is what Kobe produced in the Weak NBA Era.....

1x MVP
2x Finals MVP
2x Scoring Titles


Not enough to guarantee a place in Top 10. Atleast 1 more MVP is missing & 1 more Finals MVP missing & 2 more scoring titles missing.

Kobe just dont have enough competition in great centers & great power forwards that MJ, Charles, Drexler etc etc had in '90s & mid '80s.

Kobe hasnt done enough. Its a fact.

[magnax1]

I think anywhere from 9-13 is a fair place to put Kobe. Much higher then that, I have a hard time seeing.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I think anywhere from 9-13 is a fair place to put Kobe. Much higher then that, I have a hard time seeing.
Why would it not be possible for you to see him higher than #9?

His resume alone you could actually have a legit argument over Shaq, Duncan, the like.

He's got 5 rings and 1 MVP.

On those merits alone it's subjective enough you could rank him anywhere legitimately from #6 - #10.

You do realize that, right?

[gengiskhan]

I think anywhere from 9-13 is a fair place to put Kobe. Much higher then that, I have a hard time seeing.

ESPN , Media, LA Critics & 10 yrs old Kobe'tards deliberately preping up Kobe to Top 10 which he is not clearly.

Kobe's inefficiency is disregarded. Kobe's lower Bball IQ & no court vision is disregarded. His decent Finals performances are hyped up.

not just this even Shaq's dominance with Lakers is now an afterthought.

Why?

cuz NBA so desperately wants to make Kobe, an '00 Michael Jordan cuz he copys MJs mannerism, style of play the best.

[magnax1]

Why would it not be possible for you to see him higher than #9?

His resume alone you could actually have a legit argument over Shaq, Duncan, the like.

He's got 5 rings and 1 MVP.

On those merits alone it's subjective enough you could rank him anywhere legitimately from #6 - #10.

You do realize that, right?
Duncan? Yeah. Shaq? no. Maybe 8 is a good spot, but then you run into player who I just don't think he has a case for being better then. Hakeem, Shaq, Magic, Bird etc.

[gengiskhan]

Why would it not be possible for you to see him higher than #9?

His resume alone you could actually have a legit argument over Shaq, Duncan, the like.

He's got 5 rings and 1 MVP.

On those merits alone it's subjective enough you could rank him anywhere legitimately from #6 - #10.

You do realize that, right?

cuz. Shaq's dominance is disregarded by Media, critics, LA fans & ESPN. Shaq was the most dominant force of nature in Kobe's 3 rings. Kobe's stupidity also costed 2004 ring.

Kobe is all time great. Top 10 NO. Top 12, I say yes.

[gengiskhan]

Duncan? Yeah. Shaq? no. Maybe 8 is a good spot, but then you run into player who I just don't think he has a case for being better then. Hakeem, Shaq, Magic, Bird etc.

Anytime Kobe fans presented with facts, they just diregard it.

Hakeem is clearly a better player, better performer in his peak than Kobe ever was.

Shaq's dominent prime was as great as any MJs, Kareems, Wilts, Birds prime. clearly better than Kobe's

But even Shaq is not in Top 10 to some of these 10 yrs old.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Duncan? Yeah. Shaq? no.
Why?

We aren't talking about peak play. Or "dominance" as subjective as that may be. Because IMO when Kobe was doing the one man army thing in 2006 and 2007, he was one of the game's most dominant players of all-time.

We're talking about career. An argument can be made. To act otherwise, is kind of ridiculous.

Shaq 4x rings
Kobe 5x rings

Shaq 1x MVP
Kobe 1x MVP

Shaq 3x Finals MVP
Kobe 2x Finals MVP

Shaq 1x Scoring Title
Kobe 2x Scoring Title

[Heavincent]

cuz. Shaq's dominance is disregarded by Media, critics, LA fans & ESPN. Shaq was the most dominant force of nature in Kobe's 3 rings. Kobe's stupidity also costed 2004 ring.

Kobe is all time great. Top 10 NO. Top 12, I say yes.

Stop acting like it's ridiculous to put Kobe in the top 10. It's not.

Also, Shaq's dominance is rarely disregarded. Everyone knows how powerful and dominant he was.

[miles berg]

#10. He is cemented there in my eyes after Jordan, Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Russell, Duncan, & Hakeem.

#10

[magnax1]

Why?

We aren't talking about peak play. Or "dominance" as subjective as that may be. Because IMO when Kobe was doing the one man army thing in 2006 and 2007, he was one of the game's most dominant players of all-time.

We're talking about career. An argument can be made. To act otherwise, is kind of ridiculous.

Shaq 4x rings
Kobe 5x rings

Shaq 1x MVP
Kobe 1x MVP

Shaq 3x Finals MVP
Kobe 2x Finals MVP

Shaq 1x Scoring Title
Kobe 2x Scoring Title
Why does any of that stuff even matter? Shaq was just better. He scored equally as well, drew more defensive attention with his scoring, rebounded at an all time level, and is an amazing passer. I think maybe by the end of his career he could have an argument if he keeps up his level of play, but right now they aren't to terribly far apart in the longevity department. Shaq was probably equal, maybe a bit better in his 13th season (05) as Kobe is now, so Kobe maybe has a slight advantage, but not enough to make up for the pretty large difference peak vs peak and prime vs prime.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Why does any of that stuff even matter?
Because at the end of the day ... all that stuff like dominance, peak play, it's all subjective. The same way Kobe stans will argue he's better than a more productive player due to subjective things like "skills" ... so when all is said and done the only thing that should matter is resume, right?

Because what good is dominance if Shaq never won more than Bryant? What good is his "dominance" if he has the same number of MVPs as Bryant? Even as "the man" ... I mean Shaq had some really nice squads in Orlando and in LA before Kobe developed, and had a 3 - 4 year window with the Heat where he could've won more ... yet Bryant at the end of the day has more rings?

All I'm getting at is apart from the top five, number 6 through number 10 on the list is really subjective, and comes down to personal preferances.

[Odinn]

http://i1107.hizliresim.com/2011/7/18/326.jpg

...

[game3524]

Why?

We aren't talking about peak play. Or "dominance" as subjective as that may be. Because IMO when Kobe was doing the one man army thing in 2006 and 2007, he was one of the game's most dominant players of all-time.

We're talking about career. An argument can be made. To act otherwise, is kind of ridiculous.

Shaq 4x rings
Kobe 5x rings

Shaq 1x MVP
Kobe 1x MVP

Shaq 3x Finals MVP
Kobe 2x Finals MVP

Shaq 1x Scoring Title
Kobe 2x Scoring Title

Yeah, Kobe is going to surpass Shaq when he decides to call it a career. His resume is just going to look better then Shaq, even though Shaq had a better peak.

[magnax1]

Because at the end of the day ... all that stuff like dominance, peak play, it's all subjective. The same way Kobe stans will argue he's better than a more productive player due to subjective things like "skills" ... so when all is said and done the only thing that should matter is resume, right?

MVPs, All star games and other awards aren't subjective? And on top of that bringing up something like championships that really are just based on how good a superstars team is, is useless for a comparison. So "resume" should not matter at all, since it's just as subjective and based to much on what the team does instead of the individual.



Because what good is dominance if Shaq never won more than Bryant?
Kobe never won more then Shaq. The Lakers have won more then Shaq, but to attribute it to Kobe is pretty stupid.



What good is his "dominance" if he has the same number of MVPs as Bryant?
There's that subjectivity I was talking about. Who's to say the voters got it right in the first place? Many of them aren't as knowledgeable as most of the good posters on here. Why are their opinions more worthy?



Even as "the man" ... I mean Shaq had some really nice squads in Orlando and in LA before Kobe developed, and had a 3 - 4 year window with the Heat where he could've won more
He did have some nice squads in Orlando, but he wasn't as good back then. I think the only years you can really blame him at all for losing is 03 and 04. If he came in perfect shape and ready to go 100% they would've had a chance in 03, and I think would've been a lock in 04. Either way, it doesn't really matter, because it was about the team, and even in 02 and 03 when Shaq was out of shape, he was as good as most of the years of Kobe's prime.
As for Miami, they had a 3 year window, and 2 were basically ruined by Wade's injuries. It would've been a very close fight in the 05 finals if Wade was healthy (though I think the Spurs would've won) and Wade was the best player in the league in 07 (or at least very close to Kobe) before the injury. So it's really not Shaq's fault, especially when he wasn't the main man on those teams anyway. I actually do think if the Heat got a different matchup in the first round in 07 the would've had a chance at the finals though. Even with Wade not 100%, he was still pretty great, and their only competition were the Pistons, who weren't that great without Wallace, and the Cavs who weren't great at all.



All I'm getting at is apart from the top five, number 6 through number 10 on the list is really subjective, and comes down to personal preferances.
I sort of agree. Every one after Jordan Bird Kareem Shaq and Russell (6-15) is pretty close to me, but there are some obvious ones. Kobe fits more with Moses Malone and Magic then he does with Hakeem to me, so I think 8 is pretty much the highest that he could have a case for.

[Butters]

9-13 is justified.

I have him at 11.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Easily in the bottom half of the Top 10.
Anywhere from 6-10 is a reasonable argument.

[gengiskhan]

9-13 is justified.

I have him at 11.

I'd buy that. thanks to the winning organization he got drafted into & shaq's dominence. Helped kobe's legacy a lot.

His real place is probably Top 13 after FG% & Finals performance are taken into consideration. I'd like to give him Top 12th.

I mean. the guy appeared in 7 finals. Still no single outright dominant NBA Finals series. Also, lost 2 finals when he was clear favorite with dominant big men on his side.

All these need to be factored in.

[game3524]

1.MJ
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Magic
5.Bird
6.Hakeem
7.Russell
8.Shaq
9.West
10.Oscar or Duncan
11.Duncan or Oscar
12. Charles or Kobe

Kobe at best looks Top 12. He hasnt done enough to be Top 10. Cannot just put him in Top 10 because he already plays in weak NBA era & isnt much efficient.

How the hell can you have West 9th and Bryant behind him at 12th? That makes no ****ing sense. You factor in that Kobe lost two finals, Jerry West lost 8 times!

And if you look at their resumes, Bryant's is overall better.

MVP-Bryant-1 West-0
Scoring titles-Bryant-2- West-1
NBA titles-Bryant-5 West-1
All-Star appearances-Bryant-13 West-12
All-NBA First team-Bryant-9 West-10
NBA Finals MVP-Bryant-2 West-1
Olympic Medals-Bryant-1 and West-1

[ginobli2311]

Why?

We aren't talking about peak play. Or "dominance" as subjective as that may be. Because IMO when Kobe was doing the one man army thing in 2006 and 2007, he was one of the game's most dominant players of all-time.

We're talking about career. An argument can be made. To act otherwise, is kind of ridiculous.

Shaq 4x rings
Kobe 5x rings

Shaq 1x MVP
Kobe 1x MVP

Shaq 3x Finals MVP
Kobe 2x Finals MVP

Shaq 1x Scoring Title
Kobe 2x Scoring Title


This post is exactly why ranking players here is so flawed. Rings, MVP's, and Finals MVP's are almost fully dependent on circumstances outside the control of one player.

I'd love to see how many titles Shaq would have racked up playing in Minnesota his entire career like KG. I'd love to see how many titles Kobe would have racked up replacing T-Mac for most of his career.

That stuff matters for sure, but not nearly to the extent you are proposing. You know what trumps all of that? The fact that no GM would ever pick Kobe over Shaq to start a franchise.

[game3524]

This post is exactly why ranking players here is so flawed. Rings, MVP's, and Finals MVP's are almost fully dependent on circumstances outside the control of one player.

I'd love to see how many titles Shaq would have racked up playing in Minnesota his entire career like KG. I'd love to see how many titles Kobe would have racked up replacing T-Mac for most of his career.

That stuff matters for sure, but not nearly to the extent you are proposing. You know what trumps all of that? The fact that no GM would ever pick Kobe over Shaq to start a franchise.

So what?

Most GM's would take Shaq over Jordan if they were starting a franchise. Big men tend to be more valuable then elite wing players.

Shaq right now is ahead of Bryant, but Bryant is going to rank ahead of him when decides to hang up.

[LA_Showtime]

:roll:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

This post is exactly why ranking players here is so flawed. Rings, MVP's, and Finals MVP's are almost fully dependent on circumstances outside the control of one player.

I'd love to see how many titles Shaq would have racked up playing in Minnesota his entire career like KG. I'd love to see how many titles Kobe would have racked up replacing T-Mac for most of his career.

That stuff matters for sure, but not nearly to the extent you are proposing. You know what trumps all of that? The fact that no GM would ever pick Kobe over Shaq to start a franchise.

Welcome back gino :applause:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Welcome back gino :applause:
Please ... that's DMAVS41 w/ his original account. Haven't you noticed DMAVS41 stopped posting? After averaging like between 30 and 40 posts per day? And not even one of his many "brothers" who uses his account have posted?

:oldlol:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Please ... that's DMAVS41 w/ his original account. Haven't you noticed DMAVS41 stopped posting? After averaging like between 30 and 40 posts per day? And not even one of his many "brothers" who uses his account have posted?

:oldlol:

:oldlol: I know that DMAVS41 was his alternate. I'm just being literal. Because his Ginobili account is back. He is back posting on it.

I wonder why he switched back though?

[Boston C's]

wait so if they both have the same account does that make him a spurs fan or mavs fan im confused...

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

wait so if they both have the same account does that make him a spurs fan or mavs fan im confused...

He's neither.

[Heavincent]

He's neither.

Ariana :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Boston C's]

He's neither.

So what fan is he... I'll admit I'm a sonics fan whose favorite player was ray allen... I liked seattle because green was my fav color when I was a kid so it stuck haha and then when I actually paid attention to b-ball I liked ray ray since the bucks days even more so when he became a sonic... I remember joining this thread with one of the reasons because I used to see this person spudjay or w.e just bash on ray allen and thought it was ridiculous lmao

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Ariana :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:cheers:


So what fan is he... I'll admit I'm a sonics fan whose favorite player was ray allen... I liked seattle because green was my fav color when I was a kid so it stuck haha and then when I actually paid attention to b-ball I liked ray ray since the bucks days even more so when he became a sonic... I remember joining this thread with one of the reasons because I used to see this person spudjay or w.e just bash on ray allen and thought it was ridiculous lmao

He isn't a fan of anything. He's just anti Kobe

[brownmamba00]

:oldlol: I know that DMAVS41 was his alternate. I'm just being literal. Because his Ginobili account is back. He is back posting on it.

I wonder why he switched back though?
His 'brother' probably stole his account

[guy]

So what?

Most GM's would take Shaq over Jordan if they were starting a franchise.

Knowing how there careers turned out? I highly doubt it.

[LA_Showtime]

:cheers:



He isn't a fan of anything. He's just anti Kobe

I think it's especially funny that his alternate account averages 18 posts per day which is still well above the average. :lol

[L8kersfan222]

DMAVs/Gino is a lebron fan, but like all lebron fans, they are wounded.

[All Net]

I think it's especially funny that his alternate account averages 18 posts per day which is still well above the average. :lol

I'm well below the average then...:oldlol:

[LA_Showtime]

I'm well below the average then...:oldlol:

Indeed. Actually, I have no idea what the average is, but I'm going to assume/hope it's below 18.

Any mathematicians out there? Someone should combine his accounts and see how many posts per day it averages out to. :roll:

[PowerGlove]

1)MJ
2)Kareem
3)Dirk
4)Kobe

No one cares about the rest...they're garbage

[Nick Young]

GOAT
81 points
5 rings
nuff said

[zay_24]

He's top 5 already

[gengiskhan]

GOAT
81 points
5 rings
nuff said

more like FAGGOAT.
81 pts against high school defense
3 out of 5 rings came off sucking shaq's balls & ***** day & night.
nuff said.

[Boston C's]

more like FAGGOAT.
81 pts against high school defense
3 out of 5 rings came off sucking shaq's balls & ***** day & night.
nuff said.

lmaoo kobe stans are pissed :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

more like FAGGOAT.
81 pts against high school defense
3 out of 5 rings came off sucking shaq's balls & ***** day & night.
nuff said.

You're clearly angry

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc185/Strikeninja95/Iknowthatfeelbro.jpg

[Heavincent]

more like FAGGOAT.
81 pts against high school defense
3 out of 5 rings came off sucking shaq's balls & ***** day & night.
nuff said.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JoeCool-23/2vshkc2.gif

[imlmf]

problem is he didn't, that's the reason he's in the top 15-20 range because shaq gave him 3 rings and raptors gave him a 81 point game

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

problem is he didn't, that's the reason he's in the top 15-20 range because shaq gave him 3 rings and raptors gave him a 81 point game

You're clearly angry as well

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc185/Strikeninja95/Weallknowthatfeel.jpg

[Heavincent]

problem is he didn't, that's the reason he's in the top 15-20 range because shaq gave him 3 rings and raptors gave him a 81 point game

63 points in three quarters in 06 vs the Mavs.

And if scoring 81 points against the Raptors is so easy, than how come no one else has done it?

[imlmf]

You're clearly angry as well

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc185/Strikeninja95/Weallknowthatfeel.jpg


yes, i'm angry because i try to reason with you possessed kobe nut-hu99ers who defy common logic

[imlmf]

63 points in three quarters in 06 vs the Mavs.

And if scoring 81 points against the Raptors is so easy, than how come no one else has done it?


did i ever deny the fact that kobe's a great scorer? but when are you idiots going to understand the game basketball is not just about scoring?

the fact that this thread is asking "IF" kobe had a great finals series speaks the fact he doesn't step up his game when it counts most (81,63 all came in regular season against teams either flat out sucks or not known for its defense). This alone puts the guy outside of the top 15 range

[The-Legend-24]

did i ever deny the fact that kobe's a great scorer? but when are you idiots going to understand the game basketball is not just about scoring?

the fact that this thread is asking "IF" kobe had a great finals series speaks the fact he doesn't step up his game when it counts most (81,63 all came in regular season against teams either flat out sucks or not known for its defense). This alone puts the guy outside of the top 15 range
End your life asap.

:facepalm

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

yes, i'm angry because i try to reason with you possessed kobe nut-hu99ers who defy common logic

It's ok man. Just breathe slowly and try to think of something positive. Let the anger flow outward

[Bring-Your-Js]

Nobody's more angry than raptorfan_dr07

[ShaqAttack3234]

My current list which takes into consideration the following things: How good they were in their prime/at their peak, how good they were in the playoffs, rings with context(their role on the team, level of play ect.), longevity and how well I think their game would translate to other eras.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Larry Bird
6.Kobe Bryant
7.Tim Duncan
8.Magic Johnson
9.Bill Russell
10.Wilt Chamberlain

I could alternate MJ and Kareem, put 3-5 in any order and 6-9 in any order, but that's my top 10 right now.

[magnax1]

My current list which takes into consideration the following things: How good they were in their prime/at their peak, how good they were in the playoffs, rings with context(their role on the team, level of play ect.), longevity and how well I think their game would translate to other eras.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Larry Bird
6.Kobe Bryant
7.Tim Duncan
8.Magic Johnson
9.Bill Russell
10.Wilt Chamberlain

I could alternate MJ and Kareem, put 3-5 in any order and 6-9 in any order, but that's my top 10 right now.
I'm surprised you have him that high. I'm not going to ague about Russell and Wilt, because I already know your view on them and any sort of conversation between us wouldn't go anywhere, but what makes Kobe better then Magic too you?

[pauk]

1 jordan
2 wilt
3 kareem
4 russell
5 shaq
6 bird
7 oscar
8 magic
9 hakeem
10 duncan

get over it..............

[pauk]

My current list which takes into consideration the following things: How good they were in their prime/at their peak, how good they were in the playoffs, rings with context(their role on the team, level of play ect.), longevity and how well I think their game would translate to other eras.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Larry Bird
6.Kobe Bryant
7.Tim Duncan
8.Magic Johnson
9.Bill Russell
10.Wilt Chamberlain

I could alternate MJ and Kareem, put 3-5 in any order and 6-9 in any order, but that's my top 10 right now.

lol @ kobe over..... magic... duncan.... russell... wilt chamberlain....
lol @ that entire list......

are you drunk or something?


"how good they were in the playoffs, rings with context(their role on the team, level of play ect"

yes... so what is kobe doing there??? lol

[Samurai Swoosh]

lol @ kobe over..... magic... duncan.... russell... wilt chamberlain....
lol @ that entire list......

are you drunk or something?
He pretty much has very sound logic and reasoning. ShaqAttack is one of the best posters on these boards. You need to get smacked up for thinking otherwise. ******

[pauk]

He pretty much has very sound logic and reasoning. ShaqAttack is one of the best posters on these boards. You need to get smacked up for thinking otherwise. ******

he has hakeem & kobe.... not to mention shaq and so on..... over wilt chamberlain & bill russell........... explain how that is logic?

[Bring-Your-Js]

He pretty much has very sound logic and reasoning. ShaqAttack is one of the best posters on these boards. You need to get smacked up for thinking otherwise. ******

:applause:

[ShaqAttack3234]

lol @ kobe over..... magic... duncan.... russell... wilt chamberlain....
lol @ that entire list......

are you drunk or something?

:roll: at Oscar making your top 10, Wilt ranking 2nd and Kobe not making your list.

Go revisit Kobe's playoff runs in 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010. His entire 2006-2008 seasons and the fact that he's been an all-star caliber player from 1999-present. Arguably the most impressive single game scoring feats(81, 62 in 3 quarters, 4 straight 50 point games ect.) Multiple all-defensive teams, solid rebounder for his position, very good passer/playmaker. 5 rings, 4 of them as a top 3 player in the league.....

[magnax1]

He pretty much has very sound logic and reasoning. ShaqAttack is one of the best posters on these boards. You need to get smacked up for thinking otherwise. ******
Took me a second to realize what your avatar was. I really like it though.

[AlphaWolf24]

Since about 1% of the online fans here watched anything pre 1980..(heck I bet 90% didn't even watch nbasketball pre 1994)..so most are talkin outta dey arse...

Here's the real list from 1980 - Present..

1.MJ
2Kobe
3.Magic
4.Bird
5.Duncan
6.Shaq
7.Kareem
8.Dream
9.Lebron
10.Pippen
11.Wade
12.Mchale
13.Malone
14.Nique
15.Barkley

meh

[Boston C's]

1 jordan
2 wilt
3 kareem
4 russell
5 shaq
6 bird
7 oscar
8 magic
9 hakeem
10 duncan

get over it..............

call me crazy but I like pauks list better and I usually disagree with what he says... only thing I would change is take oscar out and put kobe in

I'd have it like this

1. M.J
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Not sure for 10 to be honest a lot of ppl you can slide here

I think M.J and Kareem Are Def 1 and 2 but otherwise 3-7 you can interchange

[Boston C's]

Since about 1% of the online fans here watched anything pre 1980..(heck I bet 90% didn't even watch nbasketball pre 1994)..so most are talkin outta dey arse...

Here's the real list from 1980 - Present..

1.MJ
2Kobe
3.Magic
4.Bird
5.Duncan
6.Shaq
7.Kareem
8.Dream
9.Lebron
10.Pippen
11.Wade
12.Mchale
13.Malone
14.Nique
15.Barkley

meh

Kobe is wayyyyyyy too high up there

[Bring-Your-Js]

Its just ridiculous to try and rank pioneers and legends like Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, et al. So little quality material visually. I don't advocate it completely, but it is easier to go Post-Merger, or atleast from the earlier 70s. :ohwell:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Go revisit Kobe's playoff runs in 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010. His entire 2006-2008 seasons and the fact that he's been an all-star caliber player from 1999-present. Arguably the most impressive single game scoring feats(81, 62 in 3 quarters, 4 straight 50 point games ect.) Multiple all-defensive teams, solid rebounder for his position, very good passer/playmaker. 5 rings, 4 of them as a top 3 player in the league.....
Gets it, great post per usual my dude.

He's in love with stat stuffing losers though, thus the Oscar and LeBron love.

He can't help it, man.

:oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe is wayyyyyyy too high up there


according to?......



Voted best player of his Generation by Fans....and most poll's I read from the Majority of Basketball fans ,have him either right behind Jordan on the alltime list or behind Magic and MJ

so top 3...i've been Following NBASKETBALL since 1980....only 1 player has earned the right to be called a better player then Kobe.....through my opinion of watching the game.

[Samurai Swoosh]

but what makes Kobe better then Magic too you?
Magic didn't play a lick of defense ...

It's held against other players, but not Magic for some odd reason.

[ThaSwagg3r]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

I really hate ranking Russell and Wilt since I never saw them play and many others didn't either. You almost have to just throw them somewhere.

[magnax1]

Magic didn't play a lick of defense ...

It's held against other players, but not Magic for some odd reason.
I completely agree, he sucked on D, but you can't ignore the gap on offense either.

[Boston C's]

according to?......



Voted best player of his Generation by Fans....and most poll's I read from the Majority of Basketball fans ,have him either right behind Jordan on the alltime list or behind Magic and MJ

so top 3...i've been Following NBASKETBALL since 1980....only 1 player has earned the right to be called a better player then Kobe.....through my opinion of watching the game.

Kobe isn't even the greatest laker and your forgetting about one... kareem's career resume is most def more impressive then kobes you have to put him up there along with russell who was idk um the biggest winner in nba history (11 rings) then you have bird with his 3 rings and 3 mvps (Kobe will probably be better when its all said and done) and shaq who is arguably the most dominant player to ever play along with Wilt who put up ridiculous numbers and accolades... all of these players have cases over kobe... kobe is just not up to snuff with these guys

[Samurai Swoosh]

I completely agree, he sucked on D, but you can't ignore the gap on offense either.
I don't think it's as significant to outweigh Kobe's vast superior dominance on the defensive end in comparison.

Kobe w/o his first three years as a 17, 18, 19 year old playing behind an all star already at his position.

He's a career 27 ppg scorer.

27 ppg and 5 apg is that much significantly worse than 19 ppg 11 apg?

They both have the same number of rings, too?

For 4 of them Kobe was a top 3 - 5 player in the league, even when sharing the spotlight w/ prime Shaquille O'Neal?

[game3524]

My current list which takes into consideration the following things: How good they were in their prime/at their peak, how good they were in the playoffs, rings with context(their role on the team, level of play ect.), longevity and how well I think their game would translate to other eras.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Larry Bird
6.Kobe Bryant
7.Tim Duncan
8.Magic Johnson
9.Bill Russell
10.Wilt Chamberlain

I could alternate MJ and Kareem, put 3-5 in any order and 6-9 in any order, but that's my top 10 right now.

Your list and reasons are great as usual Shaqattack, but why Kobe ahead of Magic. I love Bryant, but Magic resume is just a tad better IMO.

My list

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Hakeem
9. Bryant
10. Duncan

[ThaSwagg3r]

1 jordan
2 wilt
3 kareem
4 russell
5 shaq
6 bird
7 oscar
8 magic
9 hakeem
10 duncan

get over it..............
Wow is this a ****ing joke? :oldlol: Anyone who has Oscar in their top 10 is overrating the hell out of the guy. What I find even more funny is that you think he is better than Magic and the greatest PG of all-time.

Magic is being underrated as hell in this thread

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe isn't even the greatest laker and your forgetting about one... kareem's career resume is most def more impressive then kobes you have to put him up there along with russell who was idk um the biggest winner in nba history (11 rings) then you have bird with his 3 rings and 3 mvps (Kobe will probably be better when its all said and done) and shaq who is arguably the most dominant player to ever play along with Wilt who put up ridiculous numbers and accolades... all of these players have cases over kobe... kobe is just not up to snuff with these guys


Kareems career is more impressive then anyone's outside of Bill Russell...

Bill Russell has the darn Finals MVP named after him to go along with winning 14 major Basketball championships in 15 years and is widely considered the greatest defensive player ever...


so are you saying Russell and Kareem are better basketball players then Jordan , Kobe , Bird and Magic?

again I'm going off of what I watched since 1980....I always felt Magic was far more important to the team then Kareem....and a better player..same goes for Bird and MJ....as does Kobe.


many view Kobe as the Greatest laker ever.....many basketball fans...not the small % of elitist fans....I still hold Magic slightly ahead..But I think Kobe is right there..


But IMO Kobe is a better basketball player then anyone ever outside MJ....again I;m judging from watching the game..Kobe skillset and work ethic/will to win....... is 2nd to only MJ.....maybe no one.

again....most fans already voted and have Kobe as higher ranking player then Shaq and voted him (kobe) player of His Generation...so Kobe has serious cases to be ranked over them....definatly up to snuff...as a starter from ages 21 - 32 = 28.3PPG 6REB 5AST with 7 NBA Finals and 5 titles in almost the exact same role with similar results as MJ....

a skillset that maybe 2 nd to no one ever....def has a case to be ranked that high..and that's why he is to the majority of fans.

[Heavincent]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

I really hate ranking Russell and Wilt since I never saw them play and many others didn't either. You almost have to just throw them somewhere.

This is actually a damn good list. Personally, I'd put Kobe at 6 or 7, but 8 isn't a bad spot for him.

[Boston C's]

Kareems career is more impressive then anyone's outside of Bill Russell...

Bill Russell has the darn Finals MVP named after him to go along with winning 14 major Basketball championships in 15 years and is widely considered the greatest defensive player ever...


so are you saying Russell and Kareem are better basketball players then Jordan , Kobe , Bird and Magic?

again I'm going off of what I watched since 1980....I always felt Magic was far more important to the team then Kareem....and a better player..same goes for Bird and MJ....as does Kobe.


many view Kobe as the Greatest laker ever.....many basketball fans...not elitist fans....I still hold Magic slightly ahead..But I think Kobe is right there..


But IMO Kobe is a better basketball player then anyone ever outside MJ....again I;m judging from watching the game..Kobe skillset and work ethic/will is 2nd to only MJ

First bolded I'm not saying that they are but the career argument is definitely there for those two I'm talking accomplishments etc... especially kareem, you look at their resumes and they are extremely impressive... I just think that the ppl I have mentioned have done more then kobe to be ahead of him... only ppl I can see Kobe leapfrogging when its all said and done is bird and possibly Shaq... otherwise I have Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and WIlt all above kobe... for the second bolded if were going by the skillset criteria then yes I can agree with you but my list composes everything from skillsets to rings to individual accolades

[magnax1]

I don't think it's as significant to outweigh Kobe's vast superior dominance on the defensive end in comparison.

Kobe w/o his first three years as a 17, 18, 19 year old playing behind an all star already at his position.

He's a career 27 ppg scorer.

27 ppg and 5 apg is that much significantly worse than 19 ppg 11 apg?

For a point guard, you can't just put out stats like that. The impact is team wide. Magic's team never once dropped lower then the 5th best offense in the league, and while you can say that some of that had to do with some of the insane talent he had on his teams, especially early in his career, there are years after Kareem's retirement where his team wasn't nearly as stacked, and they still stayed above the 5th best in the league. I'm not trying to compare Kobe's lakers offensive stats directly against Magic's because that wouldn't be fair, but realistically, Kobe hasn't gotten the same offensive result out of similarly talented teams as Magic. In reality, it's hard to compare a scorer and a passer, but there is no doubt in my mind that Magic had a larger impact, and that impact offensively is really only comparable to maybe 4 other players.

[AlphaWolf24]

First bolded I'm not saying that they are but the career argument is definitely there for those two I'm talking accomplishments etc... especially kareem, you look at their resumes and they are extremely impressive... I just think that the ppl I have mentioned have done more then kobe to be ahead of him... only ppl I can see Kobe leapfrogging when its all said and done is bird and possibly Shaq... otherwise I have Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and WIlt all above kobe... for the second bolded if were going by the skillset criteria then yes I can agree with you but my list composes everything from skillsets to rings to individual accolades


how is Jordan ranked Higher then Kareem and Russell if your career acomplishments have so much value compared to Kobe.

career acomplishments wise Kareem and Russell are greater then MJ's...and some acomplishments have No bearing on anything.....Steve Nash 2 MVP's:confusedshrug:

MJ's allstar game in 2002 when NO One voted or him:confusedshrug:

Kobe's and Shaq's 1 MVP:roll: ..I'm going off what I watched.....as are the majority of real fans

again...most fans had MJ or Bird or Magic ranked Higher then Kareem and Russell in the mid 80's when their career paled in comparison....most said Bird was the GOAT in 1986...MJ in 1991...Magic in 1988....

IMO they are right..Magic , bird and MJ are better basketball players and impact the game more...as does Kobe.

Kobe is a far better skilled player then Shaq....and Impacts the game in far more areas....and has proven to be a greater Champion.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I completely agree, he sucked on D, but you can't ignore the gap on offense either.

I'm not sure there is a real gap. Kobe is one of the greatest scorers of all time, and probably the best streak scorer of all time. He's a very good playmaker for non-point guards as well and has been the Lakers de facto point guard for the majority of his career.

Magic is arguably the best passer/playmaker of all time, but in the first half of the 80's was really an opportunistic scorer who wasn't that much of a scoring threat in the halfcourt. From '87-'91 he was a really complete offensive player, though.

[Boston C's]

how is Jordan ranked Higher then Kareem and Russell if your career acomplishments have so much value compared to Kobe.

career acomplishments wise Kareem and Russell are greater then MJ's...and some acomplishments have No bearing on anything.....Steve Nash 2 MVP's:confusedshrug:

MJ's allstar game in 2002 when NO One voted or him:confusedshrug:

Kobe's and Shaq's 1 MVP:roll: ..I'm going off what I watched.....as are the majority of real fans

again...most fans had MJ or Bird or Magic ranked Higher then Kareem and Russell in the mid 80's when their career paled in comparison....most said Bird was the GOAT in 1986...MJ in 1991...Magic in 1988....

IMO they are right..Magic , bird and MJ are better basketball players and impact the game more...as does Kobe.

Kobe is a far better skilled player then Shaq....and Impacts the game in far more areas....and has proven to be a greater Champion.

Wrong Jordans career accomplishments surpass both russells and Kareems thats why I have him first... 6 rings multiple scoring titles all nba teams finals mvps DPOY etc... especially his playoff performances, you look at his playoff performances and you see that nobody dominated the big stage like M.J and that right there is what separates him from those two (barely)... Kobe impacts the game in more areas then shaq? Of course he does hes a perimeter player... but I'll tell you this the way shaq dominated you could argue nobody could dominate like he could there was simply no answer for him... kobe at times would shoot himself out of games... another thing that really separates kobe from elite company is his own playoff performances I mean come on he was part of the worst finals comeback in nba history and in that same series in a closeout game proceeds to get trounced by 40 points... I'm sorry but those guys especially M.J would never let something like that happen... Kobe is top 10 but the highest I see him finishing is 6th and thats an If...if I really wanted to look back you could see most of the finals kobe has been a part of have been subpar and what the truly great players do is raise their level come playoff/championship time... not saying kobe was a choke artist but his playoff resume isnt all that impressive compared with the elites

[AlphaWolf24]

Wrong Jordans career accomplishments surpass both russells and Kareems thats why I have him first... 6 rings multiple scoring titles all nba teams finals mvps DPOY etc... especially his playoff performances, you look at his playoff performances and you see that nobody dominated the big stage like M.J and that right there is what separates him from those two (barely)... Kobe impacts the game in more areas then shaq? Of course he does hes a perimeter player... but I'll tell you this the way shaq dominated you could argue nobody could dominate like he could there was simply no answer for him... kobe at times would shoot himself out of games... another thing that really separates kobe from elite company is his own playoff performances I mean come on he was part of the worst finals comeback in nba history and in that same series in a closeout game proceeds to get trounced by 40 points... I'm sorry but those guys especially M.J would never let something like that happen... Kobe is top 10 but the highest I see him finishing is 6th and thats an If...if I really wanted to look back you could see most of the finals kobe has been a part of have been subpar and what the truly great players do is raise their level come playoff/championship time... not saying kobe was a choke artist but his playoff resume isnt all that impressive compared with the elites

WTF?...how is 1 NCAA, 2 Gold medal, 6 NBA Titles in 15 seasons and 5 MVP's better then ...

2 NCAA Titles , 1 Gold Medal , 11 NBA Championships (7 - 9 Finals MVP's if the award was given out when he played) NBA Finals MVP award named after him....Greatest defensive player ever...NBA named him 1980 great
est Basketball player of alltime
5 MVP's and the greatest winner in American team sports History:confusedshrug: You discount all of Russell's Playoff statistical dominance from defense and rebounding because MJ scored a little more and won far less???


then you talk about Shaq dominating...he played on 7+ 50 win teams without Kobe , good enough to win a Title and won 1......he never got close to the championship success as he did playing with Kobe...despite playing with Great perimeter players..

Kobe went to 3 straight Finals and took a team with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker to the playoff's and almost beat the #1 seed..

Kobe is a better allaround player a better leader....and has more impact on his team on and off the court then Shaq.

you say he "sometimes shoots his teams out of it".....I say 7 NBA Finals in 11 years as a starter trumps that statement....

Look at the Heat this year..they had a stacked team and still lost....it's the NBA....all the players are great...it comes down to how much you work on your skillset and how much you want it.....

There's MJ and Kobe....then the rest.

_____________________________________________

Kobe's Finals sub par??....according to what?....teh 2 he lost?....age 21 he won a Title averaging what?...like 15 - 16PPG a couple rebs and asst with the Game 4 Clutch OT..and the leading of the Lakers in the WCFinals game 7 to even get to the Finals.

age 21 MJ was choking vs Idaho st. in college

01' Finals...age 22..what did he average...20+ points.....but he played great.......who cares about the minimal stats.WCFials vs the Spurs (the REAL NBA CHAMPIONSHIP) Kobe averaged 33PPG 7REB 7AST:lol

ESPN called him the best player in the NBA at only 22 years old..


MJ at age 22 was swept in the first round...in fact MJ always Ballhogged his way outta the playoff's for his first 6 - 7 years...so yeah he did let it happen...alot.




02' finals he again played amazing.......MJ again got swept....."oh but MJ stats were better":facepalm

the 09' 10' Finals were amazing...not sure what you were watching???

[magnax1]

I'm not sure there is a real gap. Kobe is one of the greatest scorers of all time, and probably the best streak scorer of all time. He's a very good playmaker for non-point guards as well and has been the Lakers de facto point guard for the majority of his career.

Magic is arguably the best passer/playmaker of all time, but in the first half of the 80's was really an opportunistic scorer who wasn't that much of a scoring threat in the halfcourt. From '87-'91 he was a really complete offensive player, though.
It really doesn't have much to do with scoring though. The fact is that Magic averaged about 20 ppg most of his career, and the real impact that he had was his passing. The reason he was great was that he made the Lakers play pretty consistently, as the best offense in the NBA.
Also, while he might have been a bit better scorer in the late 80s and early 90s, he also was one of the worst defenders in the league at that point, while earlier in his career, he was at least average.

[BEAST Griffin]

12-18

[Heavincent]

12-18

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/umadmiamiheat-kobebryant-1.jpg

[ShaqAttack3234]

It really doesn't have much to do with scoring though. The fact is that Magic averaged about 20 ppg most of his career, and the real impact that he had was his passing. The reason he was great was that he made the Lakers play pretty consistently, as the best offense in the NBA.
Also, while he might have been a bit better scorer in the late 80s and early 90s, he also was one of the worst defenders in the league at that point, while earlier in his career, he was at least average.

He was more than a "bit better" scorer by that point, he was a lot better.

And since Kobe became a starter and top 2 offensive option on the team, the Lakers have pretty consistently been among the best offensive teams in the league as well, and that's while playing with less offensive talent on average.

1999- 2nd best offensive team
2000- 5th best offensive team
2001- 2nd best offensive team
2002- 2nd best offensive team
2003- 4th best offensive team
2004- 6th best offensive team
2005- 7th best offensive team
2006- 8th best offensive team
2007- 7th best offensive team
2008- 3rd best offensive team
2009- 3rd best offensive team
2010- 11th best offensive team
2011- 6th best offensive team

And it's worth noting that injuries clearly affected his ability to perform in 2004 and 2005, plus the off the court stuff in 2004, midseason coaching change in 2005 and the fact that the 2005 team wasn't that talented.

And the 2006 and 2007 teams ranking as high as they did is a feat itself, who outside of Kobe and Odom was a notable offensive player? And Odom was inconsistent and missed significant time in 2007.

2010 is the one exception, but that's another year where his play for much of the season was really limited by injuries and both Gasol and Bynum missed significant time.

[Samurai Swoosh]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/umadmiamiheat-kobebryant-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/kobescowl.gif

[Boston C's]

WTF?...how is 1 NCAA, 2 Gold medal, 6 NBA Titles in 15 seasons and 5 MVP's better then ...

2 NCAA Titles , 1 Gold Medal , 11 NBA Championships (7 - 9 Finals MVP's if the award was given out when he played) NBA Finals MVP award named after him....Greatest defensive player ever...NBA named him 1980 great
est Basketball player of alltime
5 MVP's and the greatest winner in American team sports History:confusedshrug: You discount all of Russell's Playoff statistical dominance from defense and rebounding because MJ scored a little more and won far less???


then you talk about Shaq dominating...he played on 7+ 50 win teams without Kobe , good enough to win a Title and won 1......he never got close to the championship success as he did playing with Kobe...despite playing with Great perimeter players..

Kobe went to 3 straight Finals and took a team with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker to the playoff's and almost beat the #1 seed..

Kobe is a better allaround player a better leader....and has more impact on his team on and off the court then Shaq.

you say he "sometimes shoots his teams out of it".....I say 7 NBA Finals in 11 years as a starter trumps that statement....

Look at the Heat this year..they had a stacked team and still lost....it's the NBA....all the players are great...it comes down to how much you work on your skillset and how much you want it.....

There's MJ and Kobe....then the rest.

_____________________________________________

Kobe's Finals sub par??....according to what?....teh 2 he lost?....age 21 he won a Title averaging what?...like 15 - 16PPG a couple rebs and asst with the Game 4 Clutch OT..and the leading of the Lakers in the WCFinals game 7 to even get to the Finals.

age 21 MJ was choking vs Idaho st. in college

01' Finals...age 22..what did he average...20+ points.....but he played great.......who cares about the minimal stats.WCFials vs the Spurs (the REAL NBA CHAMPIONSHIP) Kobe averaged 33PPG 7REB 7AST:lol

ESPN called him the best player in the NBA at only 22 years old..


MJ at age 22 was swept in the first round...in fact MJ always Ballhogged his way outta the playoff's for his first 6 - 7 years...so yeah he did let it happen...alot.




02' finals he again played amazing.......MJ again got swept....."oh but MJ stats were better":facepalm

the 09' 10' Finals were amazing...not sure what you were watching???

You can say a lot of ifs for russell but FACT M.j has more mvp's finals mvps and definitely outscores russell by more then "a little bit" or did you forget that he has the highest career average in points in nba history... the gold medals and ncaa titles cancel each other out... whoopdedoo russell has an award named after him... the logo is jerry west but you dont see anyone saying o Jerry west is the logo so thats a career accomplishment... im talking about career accomplishments

6

[Jacks3]

My current list which takes into consideration the following things: How good they were in their prime/at their peak, how good they were in the playoffs, rings with context(their role on the team, level of play ect.), longevity and how well I think their game would translate to other eras.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Larry Bird
6.Kobe Bryant
7.Tim Duncan
8.Magic Johnson
9.Bill Russell
10.Wilt Chamberlain

I could alternate MJ and Kareem, put 3-5 in any order and 6-9 in any order, but that's my top 10 right now.
How the **** is Kobe at #6 ahead of Duncan,Magic,Wilt and Russell. :wtf:

Kobe is in that 10-12 range. I mean he's my favorite player ever by far but he wasn't that good.

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=Boston C's]You can say a lot of ifs for russell but FACT M.j has more mvp's finals mvps and definitely outscores russell by more then "a little bit" or did you forget that he has the highest career average in points in nba history... the gold medals and ncaa titles cancel each other out... whoopdedoo russell has an award named after him... the logo is jerry west but you dont see anyone saying o Jerry west is the logo so thats a career accomplishment... im talking about career accomplishments

6

[magnax1]

He was more than a "bit better" scorer by that point, he was a lot better.

And since Kobe became a starter and top 2 offensive option on the team, the Lakers have pretty consistently been among the best offensive teams in the league as well, and that's while playing with less offensive talent on average.

1999- 2nd best offensive team
2000- 5th best offensive team
2001- 2nd best offensive team
2002- 2nd best offensive team
2003- 4th best offensive team
2004- 6th best offensive team
2005- 7th best offensive team
2006- 8th best offensive team
2007- 7th best offensive team
2008- 3rd best offensive team
2009- 3rd best offensive team
2010- 11th best offensive team
2011- 6th best offensive team

And it's worth noting that injuries clearly affected his ability to perform in 2004 and 2005, plus the off the court stuff in 2004, midseason coaching change in 2005 and the fact that the 2005 team wasn't that talented.

And the 2006 and 2007 teams ranking as high as they did is a feat itself, who outside of Kobe and Odom was a notable offensive player? And Odom was inconsistent and missed significant time in 2007.

2010 is the one exception, but that's another year where his play for much of the season was really limited by injuries and both Gasol and Bynum missed significant time.
You're kind of proving my point though. Excluding 05, 06 and 07, the team dropped out of top 5 3 times, and was never the best offensive team compared to Magic's team being ranked #1 7 times, with quite a few years being lowered due to his injuries. And they both had pretty consistently among the top 3 or 4 talented teams (excluding those 05, 06 and 07 years)
Like I said earlier, I don't really like that sort of break down though. Magic just had a larger offensive impact. The passing difference easily makes much the 5-6 ppg difference, and then some. Would I take Kobe's 06 peak? Probably, but other then that I'd have to say Magic was pretty consistently better.

And yeah, he really was just a bit better. Early on he was a 19 ppg scorer, later on he was a 22 ppg scorer. Was he a lot better half court scorer? Yeah, but not overall, and truthfully, most of his teams didn't really need him to score in the halfcourt that much.

[blablabla]

it can't get better than number 1 right

[G-Funk]

Kobe Become The 2nd Best Player Of All-Time IF he wins 2 More F. MVP.

His case is that with 7 Championships,No other player would come close to having such resume in Modern Basketball by the time it's all set and done for his career(other than MJ). If he plays 4 more years, all this would give him more 1st NBA teams(13), All-star seasons(17), All-time scoring records(3rd All-time) and possibly even more defensive team selections(11+) and so on...

1 Championship as the 2nd best player
2 Championships as the 1b Option
4 Championships as the Best Player

I would also like to point out that Jordan in his 15 seasons averaged 30/6/5 50% And Kobe has 12 seasons(out of 15) averaging 28/6/5 46%

Note: MJ's Bar is set so hight I doubt ANY player comes close to it. from Season Achievements to his Finals Performances. By no means am i trying to compare him with MJ. I'm's just putting his career averages into perspective

[G-Funk]

The passing difference easily makes much the 5-6 ppg difference, and then some.

Just wanna point out that Magic averaged 4 turnovers for his career! where PG's of his caliver such as Stoctkton, Nash and CP3 only averaged 2.5 - 3

[G-Funk]

I have a tough time determining who is better between Kobe and Bird. That's why I said 6 OR 7. It's just very, very close IMO.

I don't understand this forum. People put Kobe between 8-10, but then they think I'm crazy when I put him at 6 or 7.


a kobetard who thinks kobe is better or as good as bird.... says that i am not rational because i disagree with him................... :facepalm


what a ****ing career resume has to do with it ?
Kobe has not the half of the understanding of this sport Bird has.

damn, when people will understand that kobe has never been and will never be a better player of basketball than Bird.

you got game ? :facepalm



The stats suggest otherwise.
Bryant posted a playoff PER of 26.8 in the 2009 playoffs, the highest of his career. Same year he won his first finals MVP.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bryanko01.html

To put that chanpionship-run PER of 26.8 into perspective: It was half a point higher than Larry Birds all-time playoff high in PER, 26.3 ('84). http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../birdla01.html

Bryants '09 career playoff high in PER @ 26.8 also tops Magic Johnsons highest all time post-season PER of 26.2 ('87) by .6.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnsma02.html

"If" Kobe peak was over in '09 then how was he able to post playoff PER numbers that peak that of Bird or Magics highest all-time production? Doesn't just apply to PER either; Bryant's '09 playoff WS of 4.7 is also identical to Birds all time high in playoff WS, 4.7 ('84). Magics all time high in playoff WS is 4.0 ('88). Bryant tops or ties both ledgends statistically peak playoff production.

His '09 WS/48 of .238, the second highest of his carrer also surpasses the career post-season highs for Bird, who paeked at .236 in ('84). Birds peak of .2.36 trails Bryants top year .260 ('01) by a more substantial margin than his ''09 margin.

Bryant finished the 2009 campaign tied for the 5th highest PER in the NBA. His playoff WS of 4.7 ties Bird, and tops Magics career highest. Bryant posted the 2nd highest WS of the playoffs; losing out to James by .01 of a point (4.7 to 4.8, James).

[guy]

Kobe Become The 2nd Best Player Of All-Time IF he wins 2 More F. MVP.

His case is that with 7 Championships,No other player would come close to having such resume in Modern Basketball by the time it's all set and done for his career(other than MJ). If he plays 4 more years, all this would give him more 1st NBA teams(13), All-star seasons(17), All-time scoring records(3rd All-time) and possibly even more defensive team selections(11+) and so on...

1 Championship as the 2nd best player
2 Championships as the 1b Option
4 Championships as the Best Player

I would also like to point out that Jordan in his 15 seasons averaged 30/6/5 50% And Kobe has 12 seasons(out of 15) averaging 28/6/5 46%

Note: MJ's Bar is set so hight I doubt ANY player comes close to it. from Season Achievements to his Finals Performances. By no means am i trying to compare him with MJ. I'm's just putting his career averages into perspective

Its funny how people use the "1B" label. Even if you don't want to call him the "2nd best player" in those years, you still basically are by calling them "1b" since "1A" is implied to be greater then "1B". So in the end, he's still the 2nd best player, just closer to the best then before. And saying that from ages 33-36 he can win two more titles as the best player is a kind of far-fetched, especially after seeing him play this past year and with teams like the Heat, Bulls, and Thunder on the rise. I can see them winning two more titles if they get Dwight Howard, but Kobe wouldn't be the best player then. Thats a much more realistic expectation, meaning 2 titles as the best player and 5 as the 2nd best player. And good lord, if he wins 4 more all-nba first teams over at least all of but one of Wade, Rose, Deron, CP3, Rondo, Westbrook, etc. in each of the next 4 years, then thats a travesty. Thats a very far-fetched assumption unless it really is that much about the hype. It was horrible that he won all-nba and all-defensive first over Wade this past year, so for him to get that benefit as he gets even worse would be very ridiculous. Even though my scenario is quite different from yours, the resume is still great and maybe enough for 2nd greatest. The problem is his peak/prime play would still be clearly below alot of those guys he'd be ahead of.

[Ikill]

Kobe Become The 2nd Best Player Of All-Time IF he wins 2 More F. MVP.

His case is that with 7 Championships,No other player would come close to having such resume in Modern Basketball by the time it's all set and done for his career(other than MJ). If he plays 4 more years, all this would give him more 1st NBA teams(13), All-star seasons(17), All-time scoring records(3rd All-time) and possibly even more defensive team selections(11+) and so on...

1 Championship as the 2nd best player
2 Championships as the 1b Option
4 Championships as the Best Player

I would also like to point out that Jordan in his 15 seasons averaged 30/6/5 50% And Kobe has 12 seasons(out of 15) averaging 28/6/5 46%

Note: MJ's Bar is set so hight I doubt ANY player comes close to it. from Season Achievements to his Finals Performances. By no means am i trying to compare him with MJ. I'm's just putting his career averages into perspective
all nba teams all defensive teams and all star teams are jokes

[Anaximandro1]

First tier (The greatest legend)

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt


Second tier (Great individual/team player)


Magic
Bird
Duncan
Olajuwon


Third tier (Great individual player)


Shaq

Fourth tier (Others)

Moses Malone
Oscar
Dr J
Kobe

[brownmamba00]

SMH@ the Magic bashing in this thread

1.Jordan
2.Kareem
3.Russell
4.Magic
5.Shaq
6.Bird
7.Kobe
8.Hakeem
9.Duncan
10.Wilt

[EllEffEll]

Strange to find myself in agreement with some :pimp: who feel similarly, but I think around 9-12 is a fair position to put Kobe. Top 5? I can't see how he could even be considered seriously for that. Phenomenal talent, but the sport has had better over the years. I think part of what has kept him from coming close to (but still not cracking into) the top 5, is that he hasn't had the ape$hit crazy finals domination. I don't think he's got it in him to do it going forward either.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, this is mine.

[Boston C's]

your silly....MJ's DPOY?....compared to Russell?

MJ's allstar games when No one voted for him?....Compared to Russell who played in an era where he had to fight for his teamates to eat in a desegregated restuarant?.....and so people didn't vote for him

11 NBA Titles
2 NCAA Titles
5MVP's
named 1980 GOAT by the NBA itself
7 Finals MVP's award named after him
at least 6 DPOY awards


vs

6 Titles in 15 years
5MVP's
6FMVP's ( Pippen and Rodman deserved 2 of them_
1 NCAA Title as a role playing Freshman...(choked the other 2 years as the leader/player of the year)
12X allstar despite in 2002 No one voted for him
Slam dunk Title in 88' even though Dominique should have won (MJ did the tired azz freethrowline dunk for a 3rd time:facepalm )

Russell wins by a lanslide...russell also a better defender and rebounder...Mj jacked up 26 FGA per game and won alot less





2EZ................next

Say what you willl but fact is that what I just showed you Jordans accomplishments trump russells whether you like it or not and lmao to rodman and pippen deserving a finals mvp you have to be on something to make such a ludacris statement... just look at the accomplishments really now... russell 3x all nba first team and dont give me some racial b.s because the only reason he wasn't getting on the teams was because wilt freakin chamberlain always trumped him during the regular season... jordans resume is better whether you like it or not I dont need to say anymore

[Ronaldinho]

How the **** is Kobe at #6 ahead of Duncan,Magic,Wilt and Russell. :wtf:

Kobe is in that 10-12 range. I mean he's my favorite player ever by far but he wasn't that good.
Can you post your top ten?

Imo, he is top 10 for sure.His range is more like 7-10 than 10-12.The worst spot that i can put Kobe is 10th.

[c3z4r]

Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Olajuwon

That's my top 10

[ShaqAttack3234]

How the **** is Kobe at #6 ahead of Duncan,Magic,Wilt and Russell. :wtf:

Kobe is in that 10-12 range. I mean he's my favorite player ever by far but he wasn't that good.

Russell is hard for me to rank, his accomplishments are GOAT level(11 rings in 13 seasons, contending all 13 years, 5 MVPs ect.), but as I said, how I think their games would translate across eras is a consideration for me. I'm not sure a player with his skillset could've been an elite player/superstar after the early/mid 70's which is what makes it tough. But out of a respect for what he did accomplish, even with that considered, maybe I should put him at 6.

Wilt was the exact opposite of Russell in terms of that winning intangible, and he also looks considerably less impressive than some would have you believe in the footage that's available making me almost certain his effectiveness would drop in later eras.

And as far as what he did in his own era? Led a team to a horrible 31-49 record when healthy and in his prime. The '65 Warriors were also 11-33 with prime Wilt before trading him. Worst playoff performer of any of the top 10 players and he won just 2 rings, but needed 2 of the most talented teams ever to do it.


You're kind of proving my point though. Excluding 05, 06 and 07, the team dropped out of top 5 3 times, and was never the best offensive team compared to Magic's team being ranked #1 7 times, with quite a few years being lowered due to his injuries. And they both had pretty consistently among the top 3 or 4 talented teams (excluding those 05, 06 and 07 years)
Like I said earlier, I don't really like that sort of break down though. Magic just had a larger offensive impact. The passing difference easily makes much the 5-6 ppg difference, and then some. Would I take Kobe's 06 peak? Probably, but other then that I'd have to say Magic was pretty consistently better.

And yeah, he really was just a bit better. Early on he was a 19 ppg scorer, later on he was a 22 ppg scorer. Was he a lot better half court scorer? Yeah, but not overall, and truthfully, most of his teams didn't really need him to score in the halfcourt that much.

Magic had much more offensive talent around him, though, and the fact that Kobe was much more capable of taking over games himself is a consideration for me. This is another example of us valuing different things, hence the huge disparity on how we view John Stockton.

And I'm not talking about stats when I mention the difference between young Magic and prime Magic as a scorer, it's a noticeable difference to me watching the games.

[jlauber]

Russell is hard for me to rank, his accomplishments are GOAT level(11 rings in 13 seasons, contending all 13 years, 5 MVPs ect.), but as I said, how I think their games would translate across eras is a consideration for me. I'm not sure a player with his skillset could've been an elite player/superstar after the early/mid 70's which is what makes it tough. But out of a respect for what he did accomplish, even with that considered, maybe I should put him at 6.

Wilt was the exact opposite of Russell in terms of that winning intangible, and he also looks considerably less impressive than some would have you believe in the footage that's available making me almost certain his effectiveness would drop in later eras.

And as far as what he did in his own era? Led a team to a horrible 31-49 record when healthy and in his prime. The '65 Warriors were also 11-33 with prime Wilt before trading him. Worst playoff performer of any of the top 10 players and he won just 2 rings, but needed 2 of the most talented teams ever to do it.


Magic had much more offensive talent around him, though, and the fact that Kobe was much more capable of taking over games himself is a consideration for me. This is another example of us valuing different things, hence the huge disparity on how we view John Stockton.

And I'm not talking about stats when I mention the difference between young Magic and prime Magic as a scorer, it's a noticeable difference to me watching the games.

Once again, a complete joke of a post. Chamberlain the WORST playoff performer of the top-10? Let's take a closer look. In Wilt's peak "scoring" seasons, he had four straight post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. Aside from MJ, there is not another player on that list that can match that, including Kareem. BTW, how many 30 ppg post-seasons did Bird have? And over the course of Chamberlain's first half of his career, covering seven seasons, and six post-seasons, all Chamberlain did was AVERAGE 33 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .510...in league's that shot .430 (of course ShaqAttack NEVER mentions that fact.) Oh, and BTW, and keep in mind his awful roster in '63 was so bad that he couldn't make the playoff...with a 44.8 ppg and .528 FG%. Had he made the playoffs that season, he could very well have added another 2-3-4 ppg to his average over that span.

And even ShaqAttack posted these numbers...in Wilt's first NINE seasons, covering eight post-seasons, all Chamberlain did was average 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shot .518 (again...in league's that shot about .430, on average...which means that Wilt was outshooting the league average by nearly 10%!) And, once again, had Wilt made the playoffs in '63, there can be no question that he would have ADDED to those numbers. Incredible...nearly a 30-27-5 .520 AVERAGE over EIGHT straight post-seasons!

So, I find it fascinating that Wilt was the WORST playoff performer, when he AVERAGED a 33-27 .510 over HALF of his post-season career. Give me a list of ANY of other great that averaged that. Give me a list of any other great that even averaged that for ONE full post-season. Give me a list of any other great that even averaged a 25-25 post-season (and on percentages that blew away the league average.) Don't bother looking...you won't find ANY.

Scoring in the post-season? Wilt had those FOUR 33.2+ post-seasons...and ALL WAY over the league average in efficiency. My god, in his '64 post-season, when he took that SAME exact crappy '63 roster all the way to the Finals, all he did was average 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .543 shooting (in a league that shot .433!) Wilt also had post-season series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, and 39 ppg! Again, aside from MJ, who else accomplished that in the top-10? How about 50 point playoff games? Well, take MJ and his EIGHT out of the equation...and guess who is next, with FOUR???? Including a 56-35 game five of a best-of-five series (in a WIN), and a 50-35 game in an elimination game, and against RUSSELL (and again, in a WIN.) BTW, Chamberlain had FOUR post-season series against RUSSELL in which he averaged 30+ ppg.

How about 40-30 playoff games? Give me a list of the all-time top-10 players who accomplished that feat. I have no idea how many times Chamberlain did it, but I KNOW that he had FOUR against RUSSELL alone!

And give me a list of the greats that had a FINALS in which they averaged 20+ ppg, 20+ rpg, and shot .600+. Don't waste your time...there has only been ONE player to accomplish that feat. Yep...Wilt...with a seven game series of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and an eye-popping .625 FG%. Oh, and BTW, give me a list of those other greats that had a 30 ppg, 31 rpg SERIES (which Chamberlain had in a seven game series against Russell in '65.)

BTW, in that Finals, in an elimination game, Chamberlain hung a 45 point, 27 rebound game (and on 20-27 shooting.) Here again, that was nowhere near his best post-season game...but in any case, give me a player who had a Finals game which equaled those numbers. (Well, Russell, at #9 on ShaqAttack's list did have a 30-40 Finals game, in a game seven.)

How about a post-season of 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and on .579 shooting...and against the likes of Russell and Thurmond (whom he held to .358 and .343 shooting, while easily outscoring and outrebounding them.) And included in that entire post-season, were TWO series of averaging a TRIPLE-DOUBLE. Against the Royals that post-season, he averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and shot .612. Against RUSSELL that post-season, he averaged 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg (yes, 32.0 rpg!), 10.0 apg, and on .556 shooting. He also had an entire post-season the very next year in which he averaged 23.7 ppg, 24.7 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on .534 shooting.

How about rebounding in the post-season? Ok, Russell edges in career post-season rebounding, 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg. BUT, Wilt averaged 26 rpg DURING the Russell era. Not only that, but Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in ALL EIGHT of their H2H post-season series...and some by HUGE margins. Wilt's WORST post-season rebounding average was 20.2 rpg. He had EIGHT entire post-seasons of 24.7 rpg, including a 27.2 rpg, 29.1 rpg, and a 30.2 rpg! My god, in his LAST post-season, covering 17 games, he averaged 22.5 rpg (in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg.) Now, Kareem played in the Wilt era for FOUR seasons...and his BEST season was 18.2 (and in the other three he was at 17.0 rpg, 16.8 rpg, a nd 16.2 rpg.) Then, think about this...Wilt averaged that 22.5 rpg in his last post-season. Since then, the next best post-season mark is Kareem's 17.3 rpg in 1977. He was LIGHT-YEARS ahead of EVERYONE in rebounding in the post-season.

Oh, and BTW, Wilt, at WAY past his PRIME, and on a surgically repaired knee battled a PRIME Kareem to a statistical draw in the '71 WCF's. Then, in the very next season, he LED his Lakers to a 4-2 series win over a PRIME Kareem's Bucks...and was UNIVERSALLY hailed as outplaying Kareem in that series. And that was the ONLY series in Chamberlain's 29 post-season series in which he was statistically outplayed...and yet, the OVERWHELMING majority of those that witnessed that series would tell you his IMPACT crushed Kareem and the Bucks. (Kareem shot .414 over the course of the last FOUR games...three of them losses.)

Continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

I could SHRED everyone of those players that ShaqAttack claims were BETTER in the post-season, but instead of going page-after-page...let's just compare Bird, who he LAUGHINGLY ranks at #5, while he HILARIOUSLY ranks Chamberlain at #10. Ok, scoring...how many 30 ppg post-seasons did Bird have? ZERO. Wilt had FOUR. FG% shooting? Bird had THREE post-seasons, in TWELVE, in which he shot even 50%. His HIGH was .524. Chamberlain had EIGHT post-seasons BETTER than that, with a high of .579. Rebounding? This is truly laughable (as it is in EVERY comparison with Wilt.) Bird's HIGH playoff average was 14.0 rpg, and he only averaged 10+ in HALF of his post-season career. Once again, Chamberlain played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. Hell, in Wilt's best post-season, he even averaged more assists than Bird did in HIS best post-season (9.2 apg to 8.8 apg.) Aside from FT shooting, (and 3pt shooting, which Bird was awful at in the post-season), Wilt CRUSHED Bird in EVERY facet of the game. And that is before we compare DEFENSIVE IMPACT...in which ONLY Russell was his equal.

And how about these Bird numbers? FIVE entire post-seasons of .450 or WORSE shooting...including .408, .422 and .427! Or the fact that Bird's post-season shooting dropped DRAMATICALLY. He shot .472 in his post-season career (.496 in his regular season career), which is bad enough...but that percentage came in league's that ranged from .477 to .492, and averaged .485. But it gets even WORSE. Bird played in FIVE Finals...and he NEVER shot higher than .488, with an AVERAGE of .455, and a LOW series of .419. WAY BELOW the league average. Then, how about this? In his greatest statistical regular season, 1987-88, he had one of his WORST post-seasons, which included shooting .351 against the Pistons (BTW, Magic would averaged 22 ppg on .550 shooting against that SAME Piston team.) My god, Bird had a game seven, in the Finals, he which he shot 6-18. BTW, Bird played in 31 Finals games...and he shot LESS than .398 in ELEVEN of them (he shot 40% or worse in as many games as he did over 50%.) So, Bird was shooting LESS than 40% in over ONE-THIRD of his Finals games (and even UNDER 30% in a few!)


And, as ridiculous as having Bird ranked over Wilt, how about Hakeem at #4 over Wilt at #10????

Hakeem played in EIGHTEEN seasons. And while ShaqAttack criticizes Wilt for his TEAM records, Hakeem PALES in comparison to Wilt. Olajuwon played on only FIVE teams that ever won 50+ games (with a HIGH of 58-24.) He also only took FOUR teams to even the Conference Finals. THREE Finals and TWO rings. Then, he also guided FOUR teams to playoff series losses against lower seeds. And one of his biggest black-eyes? EIGHT FIRST-ROUND exits (in 15 seasons...or over HALF of the time.)

Meanwhile, Chamberlain, playing with WORSE rosters in the first half of his career, still came within an eye-lash of beating the greatest dynasty in professional sports, TWICE. First, he took the same basic last place roster he joined, to a 49-31 record in '62...to a two-point game seven loss against Russell's 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers. And he got that putrid roster to that loss, despite not having ONE single teammate shoot better than .397 (and aside from Chamberlain, they collectively shot .354 in that post-season.) Then, in '65 (the same season that ShaqAttack blames Wilt for a 11-33 record with the god-awful Warriors) Wilt was traded to yet another bottom-feeder, and all he did was take that 40-40 team to a 3-1 romp over the 48-32 Royals, and then a game seven, ONE point loss against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, and their 6-2 edge in HOFers. Here again, ShaqAttack "forgot" to mention THAT fact.

And, while ShaqAttack points out Wilt's '63 record (31-49)...all he did that season was LEAD the NBA in FIFTEEN of the 22 statistical categories (most by large margins, and some NBA records at the time), while his teammates collectively shot .412. How bad was that roster? Wilt's new coach in '64 had that roster, sans Wilt, play a scrimmage against draftees and even non-draftees. Hannum was shocked when the draftees beat his veteran roster. THEN, all Wilt did was take that SAME roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals, where Russell's 8-2 edge in HOFers beat Wilt's Warriors, 4-1 (wuth two last second wins)...even though Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounded him, per game, 27-25.

That was the worse. Wilt played 14 seasons, and went to the Conference Finals, TWELVE times. He played on SIX division winners. He played on SIX Conference winners. He went to SIX Finals. He played on FOUR 60+ win teams. He played on FOUR teams with the best record in the league (and in one, he LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%.) And he not only played on TWO title teams, they were among the greatest team's in NBA history, going 68-13 and 69-13. Of course, when Wilt LEFT the team's that he played for, they either didn't make the playoffs, or were BLOWN OUT in the first round (one didn't make it, and the other two were beaten in the first round, 4-1, and 3-0.)

BTW, ShaqAttack will attempt to point out that Wilt played on some "loaded" rosters in his career. Yes, in Wilt's last seven seasons, he played on some talented teams. BUT, in his ENTIRE career, his TEAM's were OUTGUNNED by HOF-laden teams in all but one post-season ('61.) And some were by HUGE margins. In his first TEN seasons, Wilt had to face the greatest dynasty in professional team sports history, Russell's Celtics, which had between FIVE to as many as NINE HOFers on those rosters (Wilt's BEST rosters had as many as three, counting Wilt himself.) Then, he faced the NY Knicks in FOUR post-seasons, with their FOUR to SIX HOFers every season. And he also faced Oscar and Kareem's Bucks TWICE (one without BOTH Baylor and West), beating his team's once (and getting much further in the playoffs in the other two season they played in the league together BTW.) So, even when Wilt had quality surrounding talent, his team's were still OUTGUNNED.

How about statistical titles? Hakeem won TWO rebounding titles, and THREE shot-block titles, in 18 seasons. I could go on for hours with all of Wilt's statistical titles. All anyone needs to know is that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%...in the SAME season, THREE times.

Of course, how about this Hakeem fact? Once again, Hakeem played in the NBA for EIGHTEEN seasons. He won ONE MVP (and that came in a year in which MJ took the season off.) He came in SECOND ONE time. And he finished in the top-4, TWO other times. Think about that. Hakeem was only considered a top-4 player, in HIS era, in FOUR of his EIGHTEEN seasons. And as horrific as that was, he only was in the top-10 NINE times. So, Hakeem wasn't even considered a top-10 player, DURING HIS era, in HALF of his career. And yet ShaqAttack has him at #4 ALL-TIME.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Fatal9]

http://i51.tinypic.com/x0znye.jpg