Kobe in his peak was better than Magic in his

[Da Heroic One]

Yeah I said it, get mad.

[poido123]

No. Which is why Magic is higher than Kobe on GOAT lists...sorry Kobe stans

[Kblaze8855]

Its hard to get mad when so many who say such things either dont remember magic at all or barely do. Im probably older than 90% of the people here and I dont remember young Magic. I remember his prime. And Kobe was not as good as he was during it. But as much as I missed I doubt many people here know about Magics game from anything more than highlights and youtube. So why be mad?

If I make the greatest hotwings in the world and you wont try them but say Tyson frozen wings are better...what is there to be mad at? You are making an unimformed decision. My feelings arent hurt.

[poido123]

Its hard to get mad when so many who say such things either dont remember magic at all or barely do. Im probably older than 90% of the people here and I dont remember young Magic. I remember his prime. And Kobe was not as good as he was during it. But as much as I missed I doubt many people here know about Magics game from anything more than highlights and youtube. So why be mad?

If I make the greatest hotwings in the world and you wont try them but say Tyson frozen wings are better...what is there to be mad at? You are making an unimformed decision. My feelings arent hurt.

Kblaze, you really don't need to respond to this, don't know why i did, i guess the old legends of basketball need to be respected and protected on this board. Too many young Kobe stans have no clue about how good these legends were.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe is not even good enough to lick Magic's converse shoes.

Magic 3 Reg Sea MVPs as DA MAN
Kobe 1 Reg Sea MVP as DA MAN

Magic 4 Rings as DA MAN & Team Leader
Kobe 2 Rings as DA MAN & Team Leader

Magic: 1 Season of MVP Sweep (1987 Reg Sea MVP & 1987 Finals MVP)
Kobe: ZERO MVP Sweep

Magic is the original & transformed the PG position forever (his inspiration: Penny, Kidd, Paul, Nash)
Kobe is cheap poor man's copy of GOAT. (He has no inspirations besides serial Rapists in LA county Jail)

Greatest 5 Lakers of all time:
1. Kareem
2. Magic
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. West

Nuff said.

close the damb azz thread.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe is not even good enough to lick Magic's converse shoes.

Magic 3 Reg Sea MVPs as DA MAN
Kobe 1 Reg Sea MVP as DA MAN

Magic 5 Rings as DA MAN & Team Leader
Kobe 2 Rings as DA MAN & Team Leader

Magic: 1 Season of MVP Sweep (1987 Reg Sea MVP & 1987 Finals MVP)
Kobe: ZERO MVP Sweep

Magic is the original & transformed the PG position forever (his inspiration: Penny, Kidd, Paul, Nash)
Kobe is cheap poor man's copy of GOAT. (He has no inspirations besides serial Rapists in LA county Jail)

Greatest 5 Lakers of all time:
1. Kareem
2. Magic
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. West

Nuff said.

close the damb azz thread.

You could argue that Magic didn't win as "the man" until his 4th ring. In any case, there's no argument for Magic winning 5 as the man. Kareem was clearly the best plar on the 1980 Lakers.

[gengiskhan]

You could argue that Magic didn't win as "the man" until his 4th ring. In any case, there's no argument for Magic winning 5 as the man. Kareem was clearly the best plar on the 1980 Lakers.


Totally agreed.

my bad.

I got dat one wrong. Kareem was clearly robbed of MVP Sweep in 1980.

you right, Magic has 4 real championships as DA MAN & Team Leader.

[Jacks3]

What makes Magic indisputably the man in 82 or 85?:confusedshrug:

[Collie]

nope

[BEAST Griffin]

Kobe Bryant is not a top 10 player of all time. Magic Johnson is.

[ZaaaaaH]

Totally agreed.

my bad.

I got dat one wrong. Kareem was clearly robbed of MVP Sweep in 1980.

you right, Magic has 4 real championships as DA MAN & Team Leader.


Magic has 2 1/2 As the Man just like Kobe Get that shiiit straight.

Your hate for Kobe is fucccking amazing. You have Kareem as the Best Laker of ALL - TIME but You write dumb shiiit like Magic was the Man for 4 Championship. :facepalm

Why are you such a Homo?

I will Pwn you on the argument how Important Kareem was in those Championship runs Magic had.

[DuMa]

http://images.wikia.com/halofanon/images/8/87/Son-i-am-disappoint.gif

[gengiskhan]

Kobe Bryant is not a top 10 player of all time. Magic Johnson is.

This.

MAGIC is LOCKED Top 5 GOAT btw.

[gengiskhan]

Magic has 2 1/2 As the Man just like Kobe Get that shiiit straight.

Your hate for Kobe is fucccking amazing. You have Kareem as the Best Laker of ALL - TIME but You write dumb shiiit like Magic was the Man for 4 Championship. :facepalm

Why are you such a Homo?

I will Pwn you on the argument how Important Kareem was in those Championship runs Magic had.

NO disrespect to Kareem & his (6 reg sea MVPs & 5 Finals MVPs which should've been 6 & hence Best Laker of all time)

NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF NBA RAN OFFENCE BETTER THAN MAGIC MAN. Nobody till today.

He had unbelievable IQ, court vision & judgement.

He even prolonged Kareem's post prime years & made him better as an old past his prime player.

You may switch Magic for Kareem if you like as Magic only played for lakers & his best years as lakers.

I wont disagree with you.

[ZaaaaaH]

NO disrespect to Kareem & his (6 reg sea MVPs & 5 Finals MVPs which should've been 6 & hence Best Laker of all time)

NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF NBA RAN OFFENCE BETTER THAN MAGIC MAN. Nobody till today.

He had unbelievable IQ, court vision & judgement.

He even prolonged Kareem's post prime years & made him better as an old past his prime player.

You may switch Magic for Kareem if you like as Magic only played for lakers & his best years as lakers.

I wont disagree with you.


I can Agree Magic was THE best Floor GENERAL but I just dont like How you try to Support Magic just to Look down on Kobe.

I like Magic but he play no Defense Compare to Kobe.

[ZaaaaaH]

This.

MAGIC is LOCKED Top 5 GOAT btw.


See this Is why.

I Can Agree Magic is TOP 5 ALL - Time but for you to Say Kobe is not TOP 10 :no:

As of now No doubt Magic is Above Kobe BUT Magic himself said Kobe is the Greatest Laker Of ALL TIME and he said it with a Straight Face. Since Magic is a Humble Man so Im not going to take that into Full context but I think Magic is talking about Once Kobe is Done with his Career.

Why MJ is Greater then Everyone is because He DOMINATED Both Ends of the Court Magic just DESTROYS other Teams Defense but He gets Exposed in Defense as well. SO to me You are Bystanderd When it comes to Kobe because of youre hate.

[Carbine]

I don't think it's a crazy statement to make.

[get these NETS]

kobe really been a great defender for his career or did having shaq behind him make him appear to be a better defender in first half of career?

easier to gamble with diesel in the paint





don't confuse activity with accomplishment- wooden

[Da Heroic One]

kobe really been a great defender for his career or did having shaq behind him make him appear to be a better defender in first half of career?

easier to gamble with diesel in the paint

http://losthatsportsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/kareem.jpg

[ZaaaaaH]

kobe really been a great defender for his career or did having shaq behind him make him appear to be a better defender in first half of career?

easier to gamble with diesel in the paint





don't confuse activity with accomplishment- wooden


Easier to Gamble? Kobe was not really the Gambling type THAT is why he was chosen by Coaches despite the fact he never lead the league in steals and have high blocking numbers or reb.


Im not gonna Deny Shaq being behind him helped him but Kobe was bottom line Lock down Defender with High IQ.

[G-Funk]

kobe really been a great defender for his career or did having shaq behind him make him appear to be a better defender in first half of career?

easier to gamble with diesel in the paint





don't confuse activity with accomplishment- wooden

Kobe never really was a gambler. He was a lock down defender... shows how much u know

[FatComputerNerd]

Kobe Bryant is not a top 10 player of all time.

qft

[G-Funk]

qft


Kobe>Lebron

[get these NETS]

Kobe never really was a gambler. He was a lock down defender... shows how much u know


you wrote down lock down defender.. a few minutes after the guy before you did......

do you shake his dick for him after he leaks too?



who did kobe lockdown in the pistons/lakers series?

[Odinn]

In Jordan-Magic comparisons, we can say something about defense. Jordan payed some serious attention to defense.

But we can't say same for Kobe. He didn't pay attention to defense after Shaq's leaving and peak Kobe was in 06-08. He was a good defender still. But he didn't play enough defense to surpass peak Magic.

Magic's offensive impact >>> Kobe's offensive impact (Remember, Magic was 22/7/15 guy in playoffs and made his team&teammates better)
Kobe's defensive impact >> Magic's defensive impact

[FatComputerNerd]

Kobe>Lebron

As a Cavs fan I am not a big fan of Lebron, but I still have to disagree. Lebron is a much more complete player than Kobe.

Obviously right now Kobe has the edge career wise, and on accomplishments, but Lebron is far more skilled and naturally gifted.

[Doctor Rivers]

Kobe Bryant is a top 10 player of all time.

fixed.

qft.

[Da Heroic One]

In Jordan-Magic comparisons, we can say something about defense. Jordan payed some serious attention to defense.

But we can't say same for Kobe. He didn't pay attention to defense after Shaq's leaving and peak Kobe was in 06-08. He was a good defender still. But he didn't play enough defense to surpass peak Magic.

Magic's offensive impact >>> Kobe's offensive impact (Remember, Magic was 22/7/15 guy in playoffs and made his team&teammates better)
Kobe's defensive impact >> Magic's defensive impact
Um and you could say Magic didn't play defense when Kareem left.

[game3524]

I don't think it's a crazy statement to make.

it is not.

[The Iron Fist]

No. Which is why Magic is higher than Kobe on GOAT lists...sorry Kobe stans
Magic at his peak played with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, etc.

Kobe played with Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom, 19 year old Bynum, Sasha and Farmar.


GTFOH with Magic being higher. Kobe passed him long ago.

[ZaaaaaH]

In Jordan-Magic comparisons, we can say something about defense. Jordan payed some serious attention to defense.

But we can't say same for Kobe. He didn't pay attention to defense after Shaq's leaving and peak Kobe was in 06-08. He was a good defender still. But he didn't play enough defense to surpass peak Magic.

Magic's offensive impact >>> Kobe's offensive impact (Remember, Magic was 22/7/15 guy in playoffs and made his team&teammates better)
Kobe's defensive impact >> Magic's defensive impact

If thats the Case

Magic Offensive Impact >>>>>>>>>> Duncans Offensive Impact

Magic Defensive Impact << Duncans Defensive Impact

Yea its real

[Indian guy]

This is hardly a controversial thing to say. Only 2-3 players separate Kobe from Magic on the all-time list. You can easily make a case for him being better than peak Magic.

[catch24]

Nah, he really wasn't.

[Jacks3]

But we can't say same for Kobe. He didn't pay attention to defense after Shaq's leaving and peak Kobe was in 06-08. He was a good defender still. But he didn't play enough defense to surpass peak Magic.

Wut. He was still a great defender in 2001 or 2003 while being just as great offensively. 29 PPG/5 APG/56% TS in 01, 30 PPG/6 APG in 03.

[Odinn]

If thats the Case

Magic Offensive Impact >>>>>>>>>> Duncans Offensive Impact

Magic Defensive Impact << Duncans Defensive Impact

Yea its real
Did I claim peak Duncan >> peak Magic?:facepalm

With this pointless trashing, you proved you're a true idiot. Welcome to my ignore list.:applause:

[Odinn]

Wut. He was still a great defender in 2001 or 2003 while being just as great offensively. 29 PPG/5 APG/56% TS in 01, 30 PPG/6 APG in 03.
I said Kobe didn't pay enough attention in 2005-06, 2006-2007 and 2007-08 seasons. Kobe was a great defender. I don't ignore that. But I think Kobe's peak was those 3 seasons and while he was still a good defender, he didn't play much d.

[game3524]

I said Kobe didn't pay enough attention in 2005-06, 2006-2007 and 2007-08 seasons. Kobe was a great defender. I don't ignore that. But I think Kobe's peak was those 3 seasons and while he was still a good defender, he didn't play much d.

Your wrong about 2007-08,, his defense was close to his 2001 year.

[Micku]

Magic at his peak played with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, etc.

Kobe played with Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom, 19 year old Bynum, Sasha and Farmar.


GTFOH with Magic being higher. Kobe passed him long ago.

Magic played with a stack team. But a lot of the teams in the 80s were stacked. The Pistons were stacked with a nice balance with defensive/offensive players, Celtics probably had no weakness in their team, 76ers was stacked along either other teams. You can't win in the 80s without being legendary stacked.

[The Iron Fist]

Magic played with a stack team. But a lot of the teams in the 80s were stacked. The Pistons were stacked with a nice balance with defensive/offensive players, Celtics probably had no weakness in their team, 76ers was stacked along either other teams. You can't win in the 80s without being legendary stacked.
Doesn't change the fact that Kobe exceeded expectations as a player, and with those teams though.


It was said by many, that after Shaq left, Kobe would have a tougher time scoring because he would be seeing double and triple teams now that Shaq was gone.

I think I have to go over the history of what happened to show how great his peak was.

[Micku]

Doesn't change the fact that Kobe exceeded expectations as a player, and with those teams though.


It was said by many, that after Shaq left, Kobe would have a tougher time scoring because he would be seeing double and triple teams now that Shaq was gone.

I think I have to go over the history of what happened to show how great his peak was.

They are different players. Kobe does a lot of things that Magic could never never do. Kobe is a better defender and is a better scorer, and probably is the better individual player. Especially at his peak.

But you can argue that Magic will probably help the team better. Him being on the floor will produce a better offense of the team than Kobe could at his peak or anybody else because Magic might be the best at running the offense, and he was really really efficient. Magic play could produce more wins, but that is arguable and we would never know for sure I suppose.

Kobe did shine himself out of just being Shaq's "sidekick" and turned to one of greatest players.

[RazorBaLade]

This is hardly a controversial thing to say. Only 2-3 players separate Kobe from Magic on the all-time list. You can easily make a case for him being better than peak Magic.

i honestly feel like this whole bron saga has made u appreciate kobe more... sweet.

just need bruce to get off the forums (khan)

[amfirst]

I saw Magic played. And yes I Kobe is better. Magic was great at his time, but times has change. I remember watching people back then not even guarding the mid range shot. Players today would crap on them for that.

[EllEffEll]

Magic at his peak played with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, etc.

Kobe played with Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom, 19 year old Bynum, Sasha and Farmar.

If we're going to be overtly disingenuous, two can play that game.

That's like me saying Magic had to play with Mark Landsberger, Kurt Rambis, Jim Brewer, and Jim Chones, all of whom played minutes on par with Lamar Odom, not scrub minutes. And Magic won championships with those guys playing significant minutes.

[zay_24]

Kobe is a better shooter(fact) scorer(fact) defender(fact) more clutch(fact)

Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>da otha dude who said kobe was the best laker all time

[LA_Showtime]

NO disrespect to Kareem & his (6 reg sea MVPs & 5 Finals MVPs which should've been 6 & hence Best Laker of all time)

NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF NBA RAN OFFENCE BETTER THAN MAGIC MAN. Nobody till today.

He had unbelievable IQ, court vision & judgement.

He even prolonged Kareem's post prime years & made him better as an old past his prime player.

You may switch Magic for Kareem if you like as Magic only played for lakers & his best years as lakers.

I wont disagree with you.

I can't be the only one who thinks this might be Gyno. :oldlol:

[EllEffEll]

Da other dude was 20 years old and a rookie when he scored 42 points in the last game of the Finals playing center for an injured KAJ. . . . . in Philadelphia.

What/when was Kobe's peak again?

Scoring 81 against the Raptors in a meaningless regular season game?

Does Kobe have a particular Finals performance that stands out?

I know he won a couple Finals MVP's, but it seems they just couldn't quite justify not giving it to him.

To me, Kobe is Eddie Rickenbacker while Magic is George S. Patton.

If you want to win a skirmish, bring Kobe. If you want to win a war, bring Magic.

I saw Magic play too. Quite a bit. Among others, I went to 11 games his rookie year including six playoff games (2 of them in the Finals) and I had a season ticket in 82-83.

Maybe it just depends on what you value in a player. I like Kobe, but all things considered, I think I'd take Magic on my team before Kobe. YMMV.

[The Iron Fist]

If we're going to be overtly disingenuous, two can play that game.

That's like me saying Magic had to play with Mark Landsberger, Kurt Rambis, Jim Brewer, and Jim Chones, all of whom played minutes on par with Lamar Odom, not scrub minutes. And Magic won championships with those guys playing significant minutes.


Disingenuous?

Were Mihm, Brown, Parker, Walton and Odom not starters alongside Kobe?


Magic won championships with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Nixon, & Wilkes.

Don't ever dare try to act like their rosters were in any way comparable.

[The Iron Fist]

They are different players. Kobe does a lot of things that Magic could never never do. Kobe is a better defender and is a better scorer, and probably is the better individual player. Especially at his peak.

But you can argue that Magic will probably help the team better. Him being on the floor will produce a better offense of the team than Kobe could at his peak or anybody else because Magic might be the best at running the offense, and he was really really efficient. Magic play could produce more wins, but that is arguable and we would never know for sure I suppose.

Kobe did shine himself out of just being Shaq's "sidekick" and turned to one of greatest players.

Not really. We never seen Magic run with a team as atrocious as what Kobe had in 06 and 07. If anyone always had "stacked" teams, it was Magic Johnson.

[The Iron Fist]

Da other dude was 20 years old and a rookie when he scored 42 points in the last game of the Finals playing center for an injured KAJ. . . . . in Philadelphia.

What/when was Kobe's peak again?

Scoring 81 against the Raptors in a meaningless regular season game?

Does Kobe have a particular Finals performance that stands out?

I know he won a couple Finals MVP's, but it seems they just couldn't quite justify not giving it to him.

To me, Kobe is Eddie Rickenbacker while Magic is George S. Patton.

If you want to win a skirmish, bring Kobe. If you want to win a war, bring Magic.

I saw Magic play too. Quite a bit. Among others, I went to 11 games his rookie year including six playoff games (2 of them in the Finals) and I had a season ticket in 82-83.

Maybe it just depends on what you value in a player. I like Kobe, but all things considered, I think I'd take Magic on my team before Kobe. YMMV.


A 7 game series against the Boston Celtics isn't a war?

:facepalm

[nnn123]

Not really. We never seen Magic run with a team as atrocious as what Kobe had in 06 and 07. If anyone always had "stacked" teams, it was Magic Johnson.

Why are you going around parading what Kobe had in 06 and 07 - he got knocked out of the 1st round, he didn't do anything with those rosters?!

[The Iron Fist]

Why are you going around parading what Kobe had in 06 and 07 - he got knocked out of the 1st round, he didn't do anything with those rosters?!


He didn't do anything with those rosters?

Uh, mostly everyone had the Lakers not even making the playoffs in those two seasons because of those rosters. He grossly overachieved with them.

[nnn123]

He didn't do anything with those rosters?

Uh, mostly everyone had the Lakers not even making the playoffs in those two seasons because of those rosters. He grossly overachieved with them.

Mostly everyone didn't have them making the playoffs because they didn't think too highly of Kobe. He proved he was better than people thought, but this isn't the first time superstars have taken trash to the playoffs, its not some sort of grand achievement

[G-Funk]

you wrote down lock down defender.. a few minutes after the guy before you did......

do you shake his dick for him after he leaks too?



who did kobe lockdown in the pistons/lakers series?

GTFO I don't need to read anyones post to state the obvious. I reply as I read along . Are you upset cause you got educated? Do your homework before you speak on anyone... before u make urself look like an idiot.

[Phong]

If we're going to be overtly disingenuous, two can play that game.

That's like me saying Magic had to play with Mark Landsberger, Kurt Rambis, Jim Brewer, and Jim ChonesSince you picked those players lets see how much they had to contribute when they were all on the team.

During the 1980-1982 seasons:
Mark Landsberger: started 1 games and averaged 15 minutes
Kurt Rambis: started 43 games and averaged 18 minutes
Jim Brewer: started 9 games and averaged 14 minutes
Jim Chones: never was a starter and averaged 30 minutes


During the 2005-2007 seasons:
Chris Mihm: started 56 games and averaged 26 minutes
Kwame Brown: started 77 games and averaged 28 minutes
Smush Parker: started 162 games and averaged 32 minutes
Brian Cook: started 70 games and averaged 18 minutes
Luke Walton: started 66 games and averaged 26 minutes


Chris Mihm has played more starter minutes than your entire list combined.



all of whom played minutes on par with Lamar Odom, not scrub minutes.During the 2005-2007 seasons Lamar Odom averaged 40 minutes per game.

40 > 30 > 18 > 15 > 14

Are you sure you didn't mean to say: "all of whom played minutes on par with Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf?"

Scrub minutes indeed.


And Magic won championships with those guys playing significant minutes.And Kobe won championships with the "significant" minutes of Jordan Farmar (18 minutes), Sasha vujacic (16 minutes), Luke Walton (18 minutes), Vlad Radmanovich (17 minutes)


Conclusion: :facepalm

[The Iron Fist]

Mostly everyone didn't have them making the playoffs because they didn't think too highly of Kobe. He proved he was better than people thought, but this isn't the first time superstars have taken trash to the playoffs, its not some sort of grand achievement

Who said its a grand achievement?

Nobody.


Just said that despite what was said about the talent around him at the time, and the circumstances, (Shaq leaving and people saying Kobe would have a harder time scoring)

he went above and beyond what most people thought was capable.

[get these NETS]

GTFO I don't need to read anyones post to state the obvious. I reply as I read along . Are you upset cause you got educated? Do your homework before you speak on anyone... before u make urself look like an idiot.


who did kobe lock down in the pistons/lakers series?

2X

[RazorBaLade]

who did kobe lock down in the pistons/lakers series?

2X

whod he "gamble on" at the defensive end with?

[Pursuer]

I have one issue with all of this. Some people mix in Magic's overall impact on the game. That's that he and Larry helped save the NBA and brought more popularity and viewership and that he revolutionized the PG position, by being a tall ball-handling dimes-dropping machine. But the fact of the matter is, who was the better player, and people incorporate these outside arguments, which don't have much to do with it. I mean, I could even say Magic was the better player, because he played with HIV, could Kobe do that?
Sounds ridiculous, as it is. Now, looking at the two players. Magic Johnson was the best open court play-maker we have seen and with that big body had a big advantage when he went to the post against little guys. His floor general impact and overall control of the game and the flow was outstanding and I haven't seen anybody do it like him(arguably). But as a player, he really had flaws. Defensively, he wasn't really that good(nor was the whole era, of course, with exceptions), jumpshot was really shaky, but of course his competitive drive compensated for much of this. Now Kobe as a player doesn't really have flaws. In terms of skill and ability to do things on the court, nothing is exploitable. He's not like LeBron with passiveness and shaky jumpers, nor like the defense-less Carmelo. Of course many people argue his perceived selfishness, shot selection and some other aspects, but to be honest, a player with no flaws is a rare thing that we see and I don't think Magic's achievements(5 rings, 3 mvps) really outweigh Kobe's achievements that much, that we couldn't call them on par. People keep saying who's the greatest Laker and stuff that doesn't really matter, but to be honest, Kobe's the better player and Magic's the more accomplished player.

[necya]

Da other dude was 20 years old and a rookie when he scored 42 points in the last game of the Finals playing center for an injured KAJ. . . . . in Philadelphia.

What/when was Kobe's peak again?

Scoring 81 against the Raptors in a meaningless regular season game?

Does Kobe have a particular Finals performance that stands out?

I know he won a couple Finals MVP's, but it seems they just couldn't quite justify not giving it to him.

To me, Kobe is Eddie Rickenbacker while Magic is George S. Patton.

If you want to win a skirmish, bring Kobe. If you want to win a war, bring Magic.

I saw Magic play too. Quite a bit. Among others, I went to 11 games his rookie year including six playoff games (2 of them in the Finals) and I had a season ticket in 82-83.

Maybe it just depends on what you value in a player. I like Kobe, but all things considered, I think I'd take Magic on my team before Kobe. YMMV.


that's a bit trash, but i can understand how it's tough to "battle" with a kobe stan.

i know some 80's Lakers lovers and any one of them would take kobe over Magic.

[Nobler]

Should this even be arguable?

[Jacks3]

I have one issue with all of this. Some people mix in Magic's overall impact on the game. That's that he and Larry helped save the NBA and brought more popularity and viewership and that he revolutionized the PG position, by being a tall ball-handling dimes-dropping machine. But the fact of the matter is, who was the better player, and people incorporate these outside arguments, which don't have much to do with it. I mean, I could even say Magic was the better player, because he played with HIV, could Kobe do that?
Sounds ridiculous, as it is. Now, looking at the two players. Magic Johnson was the best open court play-maker we have seen and with that big body had a big advantage when he went to the post against little guys. His floor general impact and overall control of the game and the flow was outstanding and I haven't seen anybody do it like him(arguably). But as a player, he really had flaws. Defensively, he wasn't really that good(nor was the whole era, of course, with exceptions), jumpshot was really shaky, but of course his competitive drive compensated for much of this. Now Kobe as a player doesn't really have flaws. In terms of skill and ability to do things on the court, nothing is exploitable. He's not like LeBron with passiveness and shaky jumpers, nor like the defense-less Carmelo. Of course many people argue his perceived selfishness, shot selection and some other aspects, but to be honest, a player with no flaws is a rare thing that we see and I don't think Magic's achievements(5 rings, 3 mvps) really outweigh Kobe's achievements that much, that we couldn't call them on par. People keep saying who's the greatest Laker and stuff that doesn't really matter, but to be honest, Kobe's the better player and Magic's the more accomplished player.
Great post.

[All Net]

This.

MAGIC is LOCKED Top 5 GOAT btw.
Do you like replying to your own posts?

[2LeTTeRS]

I have one issue with all of this. Some people mix in Magic's overall impact on the game. That's that he and Larry helped save the NBA and brought more popularity and viewership and that he revolutionized the PG position, by being a tall ball-handling dimes-dropping machine. But the fact of the matter is, who was the better player, and people incorporate these outside arguments, which don't have much to do with it. I mean, I could even say Magic was the better player, because he played with HIV, could Kobe do that?

Sounds ridiculous, as it is. Now, looking at the two players. Magic Johnson was the best open court play-maker we have seen and with that big body had a big advantage when he went to the post against little guys. His floor general impact and overall control of the game and the flow was outstanding and I haven't seen anybody do it like him(arguably). But as a player, he really had flaws. Defensively, he wasn't really that good(nor was the whole era, of course, with exceptions), jumpshot was really shaky, but of course his competitive drive compensated for much of this. Now Kobe as a player doesn't really have flaws. In terms of skill and ability to do things on the court, nothing is exploitable. He's not like LeBron with passiveness and shaky jumpers, nor like the defense-less Carmelo. Of course many people argue his perceived selfishness, shot selection and some other aspects, but to be honest, a player with no flaws is a rare thing that we see and I don't think Magic's achievements(5 rings, 3 mvps) really outweigh Kobe's achievements that much, that we couldn't call them on par. People keep saying who's the greatest Laker and stuff that doesn't really matter, but to be honest, Kobe's the better player and Magic's the more accomplished player.

Wait did you just say that a player who was one of the biggest shot-jackers in the league and routinely broke off his team's offense because he wouldn't play within the scheme of an offense has no flaws? That is just not true.

Kobe is a great player, and as you can see I've been calling him top 10 all time before he won his 4th and 5th ring (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71999); but your going a little overboard there.

[gengiskhan]

Do you like replying to your own posts?

Magic Revolutionized the PG position. inspired a generation of PG who played like him (Penny, Nash, Kidd, Paul etc etc)

Magic was the chief architect of the Lakers "SHOWTIME" offense. His 6'9" size & IQ & Court Vision was far advanced to a point where anyone running with him had enough time to make basket from magic assist.

Magic destroys Kobe not just in individual accolades but also as an over all Bball player. Kobe is only much better scorer & better defender. But playmaker, rebounder, IQ, Leaderships, intangibles etc. Magic kills Kobe.

When Magic was on the court, He controlled the games tempo & flow. Not every PG could do that. Not even Stockton. Isiah could do somewhat. But Magic was the master.

With all this, Magic's lack of athletic ability leading to below average defense can be overlooked.

[jlauber]

Kobe's career is comparable to Birds...and Magic's career was better than both.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe's career is comparable to Birds...and Magic's career was better than both.

disagree.

Bird 3 Straight Reg sea MVPs in stacked Era
Kobe 1 MVP in weaker Era skills wise, Bball fundamentals & Relaxed defensive Era.

Bird: 2 x MVP Sweep (1984 Reg sea & Finals MVP, 1986 Reg Sea MVP & Finals MVP)
Kobe: None

Bird lost to all time great Finalists (2 times to Lakers) or else, Bird would've had 5 rings & 4 Finals MVPs.
Kobe lost to decent good finalist (Pistons & Celtics) cannot be compared to "showtime" Lakers.

Bird's true comparison is only Magic & MJ (multiple MVPs & MVP sweeps)

Kobe's career is best compared with Shaq & Duncan

Bird was just incredible Bball player. Kobe is an all time great scorer. NBA had many Kobes in Nique, Bernard King, Iverson, McGrady who go on scoring tear.

NBA never produced Bird. His IQ, intangibles, leadership, court vision, play making, scoring. par excellence.

Kobe is a lost man without Bball in his hand. Seen it 80% of his career. at times, really doesnt know what to do.

[gengiskhan]

Now Kobe as a player doesn't really have flaws. In terms of skill and ability to do things on the court, nothing is exploitable. He's not like LeBron with passiveness and shaky jumpers.

:facepalm

Is this guy serious.

Fact 1: Kobe is weak without basketball in his hand.

Fact 2: Kobe misses many more jumpshots than he makes.

Fact 3: Kobe's shot selection is well below average

Fact 4: Kobe at 6'6" is not a complete player but more of a complete offensive player with great post-up game which is a dying art now.

Fact 5: Kobe Bball IQ, Court Vision & intangibles is below average so his desicion making most offen suffers than not. specially in big games.

Fact 6: Kobe still doesnt know how to get to open spaces to get easy shots. He takes unnecessary way too difficult shots & gets into Hero complex mode.

[IGOTGAME]

:facepalm

Is this guy serious.



Fact 2: Kobe misses many more jumpshots than he makes.




:roll: :roll:

yeah, i wonder how many superstars make more jumpshots than then they miss.

[TheMarkMadsen]

:facepalm

Is this guy serious.

Fact 1: Kobe is weak without basketball in his hand.

Fact 2: Kobe misses many more jumpshots than he makes.

Fact 3: Kobe's shot selection is well below average

Fact 4: Kobe at 6'6" is not a complete player but more of a complete offensive player with great post-up game which is a dying art now.

Fact 5: Kobe Bball IQ, Court Vision & intangibles is below average so his desicion making most offen suffers than not. specially in big games.Fact 6: Kobe still doesnt know how to get to open spaces to get easy shots. He takes unnecessary way too difficult shots & gets into Hero complex mode.


This guy :facepalm. Is this guy serious :confusedshrug:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNN920v6ss. 3 peat doesnt happen if Kobe doesnt pull this 4th quarter performance out of his ass, i guess he most of forgot about his "lack of intangible & basketball IQ" for this game. And his 11 rebounds & 7 assist must have been a fluke, because as you well know Kobe can only score, and must be a hopeless chucker at that considering he misses more jumpshots than he takes..

[EllEffEll]

A 7 game series against the Boston Celtics isn't a war?

:facepalm

That was a great series, but what did Kobe do in that Game 7 when the game/series was on the line?

He was a shotjacking mofo. His contributions were more along the lines of rebounds (15 for the game, which was very helpful). It wasn't KB that put that game to bed. However, he did shiat the bed with his shooting. He was 6-24 from the field and 0-6 from 3pt.

Lifetime playoff numbers: For all the criticism about Magic's shooting (.506 FG%), he was a more efficient scorer than Kobe (.448FG%). He (Magic at 19.5ppg) scored less PPG (about 6ppg less) than Kobe (KB at 25.4ppg), but he blows KB away with assists and out-rebounded him too. KB is better at 3pt shooting, but Magic didn't take anywhere near as many (Magic had 212 attempts vs. KB at 822 attempts). Magic's lifetime playoff assist average is 12.3 compared to 4.8 for KB. That's 7.5 assists per game more, which translates to helping his team get at least 15 more ppg. If you consider that three of the other starters KB has are more efficient scorers than he is, he may be more valuable by getting more looks for his teammates. He's not a PG, but the offense goes through him, and no one else on the Lakers is really embracing the role of a true PG by getting the team involved in the offense. Playoff rebound average: KB = 5.1, Magic = 7.7. FT% = Magic .838%, KB .815%.

Statistically, the sheer number of points KB has scored is higher, but he is decidedly less efficient in doing so, and has nowhere near the impact of helping teammates to score, not to mention the intangibles Magic brought vs. the legacy of KB. In that respect, KB is far more of a double edged sword.

Kobe is a gunslinger, Magic is a floor general. If I'm picking sides, I'll take the Magic man.

[The Iron Fist]

That was a great series, but what did Kobe do in that Game 7 when the game/series was on the line?

He was a shotjacking mofo. His contributions were more along the lines of rebounds (15 for the game, which was very helpful). It wasn't KB that put that game to bed. However, he did shiat the bed with his shooting. He was 6-24 from the field and 0-6 from 3pt.

Lifetime playoff numbers: For all the criticism about Magic's shooting (.506 FG%), he was a more efficient scorer than Kobe (.448FG%). He (Magic at 19.5ppg) scored less PPG (about 6ppg less) than Kobe (KB at 25.4ppg), but he blows KB away with assists and out-rebounded him too. KB is better at 3pt shooting, but Magic didn't take anywhere near as many (Magic had 212 attempts vs. KB at 822 attempts). Magic's lifetime playoff assist average is 12.3 compared to 4.8 for KB. That's 7.5 assists per game more, which translates to helping his team get at least 15 more ppg. If you consider that three of the other starters KB has are more efficient scorers than he is, he may be more valuable by getting more looks for his teammates. He's not a PG, but the offense goes through him, and no one else on the Lakers is really embracing the role of a true PG by getting the team involved in the offense. Playoff rebound average: KB = 5.1, Magic = 7.7. FT% = Magic .838%, KB .815%.

Statistically, the sheer number of points KB has scored is higher, but he is decidedly less efficient in doing so, and has nowhere near the impact of helping teammates to score, not to mention the intangibles Magic brought vs. the legacy of KB. In that respect, KB is far more of a double edged sword.

Kobe is a gunslinger, Magic is a floor general. If I'm picking sides, I'll take the Magic man.


Grab more rebounds than anyone not named Pau Gasol.

btw, what players didn't "shit the bed" in regards to shooting in that highly defensive game?

Only one Laker shot better than 40%. That was Fisher. Artest was 7-18. Gasol was 6-16. Bynum was 1-5. Odom was 3-8. When a team as a whole is struggling that bad, why is it a bad thing for its best player to keep trying?


Either way, Kobe took his team to war, and won. You said he couldn't. I'm more than certain having back to back finals MVP is pretty meaningful and something Magic didn't do.

[DMAVS41]

Its hilarious how Kobe fans still can't just admit Kobe played a shit game in game 7 in 2010.

The moment got to him and he forced it like very few players have forced it before.

It was Gasol, Fisher, and Artest that made the biggest plays and shots as well. It wasn't a good game. Accept it and move on.

Nothing can change that.

[Samurai Swoosh]

just need bruce to get off the forums (khan)
That's not bruceblitz ... bruce may be someone who doesn't know the game as well as he prcolaims, has obvious agendas, and is a corny, massive tool bag. But he knows how to spell and punctuate. This guy isn't bruceblitz. Probably one of his idiotic lap dogs or cult followers. As evident by the "Kobe-tard" statements. Maybe that guy from his show who always says "um ... um ... um ... *repeats what bruce says as his own opinion*"

[STATUTORY]

it's not arguable that Kobe's a better player than peak Magic. Magic never had a great half court offense and could only impact the game with a stacked team

[BEAST Griffin]

Grab more rebounds than anyone not named Pau Gasol.

btw, what players didn't "shit the bed" in regards to shooting in that highly defensive game?

Only one Laker shot better than 40%. That was Fisher. Artest was 7-18. Gasol was 6-16. Bynum was 1-5. Odom was 3-8. When a team as a whole is struggling that bad, why is it a bad thing for its best player to keep trying?


Either way, Kobe took his team to war, and won. You said he couldn't. I'm more than certain having back to back finals MVP is pretty meaningful and something Magic didn't do.

Maybe Kobe going hero mode and harming the Lakers offense has something to do with his teammates struggling shooting?

You really need to watch that game again.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The moment got to him and he forced it like very few players have forced it before.
I rather my best player force the issue than be passive in a big game ala LeBron James.

It also doesn't take into account it was CLEAR defense and nerves got to everyone in that game.

No one shot the ball well.

Kobe still made the appropriate plays in crunch time, and rebounded the well extremely well for a SG which helped dictate winning the game.

It was an identical performance to Dirk's in game 6 of this year's Finals. Only difference is Kobe didn't have someone making HUGE plays and shooting lights out the way Jason Terry did.

[miles berg]

Sorry, but no.

Prime Larry & Magic were a tier above Kobe.

Nothing against Kobe though, he is fantastic.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

As far as a player and skillset, Kobe is better than Magic. Kobe is the most skilled player next to MJ, and even that is debatable.

But as far as who's overall accomplishments are better and who had more of a legacy, Magic beats Kobe in that department. Magic did more with what he had maybe, but Kobe is a more skilled player.

Anytime we mention something Kobe can't do, it's because of something he chooses not to do (Defense, better shot selection). But we've seen him do these things before. There isn't anything on a basketball court Kobe just absolutely cannot do. It may sound homer-ish, but you gotta study the game and study the players. Kobe's skillset is rivaled by few.

[DMAVS41]

I rather my best player force the issue than be passive in a big game ala LeBron James.

It also doesn't take into account it was CLEAR defense and nerves got to everyone in that game.

No one shot the ball well.

Kobe still made the appropriate plays in crunch time, and rebounded the well extremely well for a SG which helped dictate winning the game.

It was an identical performance to Dirk's in game 6 of this year's Finals. Only difference is Kobe didn't have someone making HUGE plays and shooting lights out the way Jason Terry did.


1. Kobe played a poor game. That is my point. Nobody revising history can change that.

2. It was not identical to Dirk's game at all. People here need to learn the difference between good shots and bad shots. But again, I'll never claim Dirk played well. He played an atrocious first half and was lucky Terry kept the team alive. However, Dirk did play a very good 2nd half and 4th qtr.

[DMAVS41]

As far as a player and skillset, Kobe is better than Magic. Kobe is the most skilled player next to MJ, and even that is debatable.

But as far as who's overall accomplishments are better and who had more of a legacy, Magic beats Kobe in that department. Magic did more with what he had maybe, but Kobe is a more skilled player.

Anytime we mention something Kobe can't do, it's because of something he chooses not to do (Defense, better shot selection). But we've seen him do these things before. There isn't anything on a basketball court Kobe just absolutely cannot do. It may sound homer-ish, but you gotta study the game and study the players. Kobe's skillset is rivaled by few.

Its about what you actually do and produce. Not what skills you have or the potential you have.

Could Kobe have done a lot of things? Sure, but he didn't. There is no reason for him to be under 45% shooting for his career in the playoffs. Elite skill set or not, the results are what matters.

It has to translate into results......

In theory, Kobe should be amazing with the game on the line. He can make a shot from anywhere, can attack the basket, can create and pass, and is a very good ft shooter. He has the total package.

But what has that translated into? 7 of 25 on game winners in the playoffs and a team that performs average at best in those situations. That is just an example of skill set or talent or potential not producing.

That matters.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Its about what you actually do and produce. Not what skills you have or the potential you have.

Could Kobe have done a lot of things? Sure, but he didn't. There is no reason for him to be under 45% shooting for his career in the playoffs. Elite skill set or not, the results are what matters.

It has to translate into results......

In theory, Kobe should be amazing with the game on the line. He can make a shot from anywhere, can attack the basket, can create and pass, and is a very good ft shooter. He has the total package.

But what has that translated into? 7 of 25 on game winners in the playoffs and a team that performs average at best in those situations. That is just an example of skill set or talent or potential not producing.

That matters.

That's why I said Magic did more with his skillset and had a better career (as of now)

But like I said, Kobe is the more skilled player

[catch24]

Its about what you actually do and produce. Not what skills you have or the potential you have.

Could Kobe have done a lot of things? Sure, but he didn't. There is no reason for him to be under 45% shooting for his career in the playoffs. Elite skill set or not, the results are what matters.

It has to translate into results......

In theory, Kobe should be amazing with the game on the line. He can make a shot from anywhere, can attack the basket, can create and pass, and is a very good ft shooter. He has the total package.

But what has that translated into? 7 of 25 on game winners in the playoffs and a team that performs average at best in those situations. That is just an example of skill set or talent or potential not producing.

That matters.

:applause:

[gengiskhan]

Its about what you actually do and produce. Not what skills you have or the potential you have.

Could Kobe have done a lot of things? Sure, but he didn't. There is no reason for him to be under 45% shooting for his career in the playoffs. Elite skill set or not, the results are what matters.

It has to translate into results......

In theory, Kobe should be amazing with the game on the line. He can make a shot from anywhere, can attack the basket, can create and pass, and is a very good ft shooter. He has the total package.

But what has that translated into? 7 of 25 on game winners in the playoffs and a team that performs average at best in those situations. That is just an example of skill set or talent or potential not producing.

That matters.

This

well said.

[Nick Young]

Kobe>MJ and Magic

Reason?

MJ and Magic played in weak eras compared to Kobe they never had to compete against the best power forward of all time TIM DUNCAN and the second best SG of all time MANUUU

[Psileas]

In this thread and most others of the same logic, the only argument used for prime Kobe supposedly being better than prime Magic is that he played with worse teammates (apparently, Kobe's prime was only the 2006 and 2007 seasons, but not 2008 and neither 2003-2004 or 2005, when he won like 34 games, with Odom+Butler), something for which he's partially to blame himself, anyway. Somebody explain what this proves exactly in the Magic vs Kobe debate.
Care to compare their playoff and Finals' appearances, BTW?

[gengiskhan]

In this thread and most others of the same logic, the only argument used for prime Kobe supposedly being better than prime Magic is that he played with worse teammates (apparently, Kobe's prime was only the 2006 and 2007 seasons, but not 2008 and neither 2003-2004 or 2005, when he won like 34 games, with Odom+Butler), something for which he's partially to blame himself, anyway. Somebody explain what this proves exactly in the Magic vs Kobe debate.
Care to compare their playoff and Finals' appearances, BTW?

Dude. Chillax.

This is just another 5 years old Kobe'tard dumb thread.

Magic's Peak is compared to Birds peak & MJ's peak which is totaly another Galaxy.

Bringing inefficient kobe into comparison is insult to Magic.

Kobe is only comparable to Wade, Lebron, Duncan & Shaq's peak

& kobe actually looses to Shaq & Duncan.

[nnn123]

In this thread and most others of the same logic, the only argument used for prime. Kobe supposedly being better than prime Magic is that he played with worse teammates (apparently, Kobe's prime was only the 2006 and 2007 seasons, but not 2008 and neither 2003-2004 or 2005, when he won like 34 games, with Odom+Butler), something for which he's partially to blame himself, anyway. Somebody explain what this proves exactly in the Magic vs Kobe debate.
Care to compare their playoff and Finals' appearances, BTW?

Exactly, this is what I'm trying to figure out. People always talk about how Kobe had an unfortunate career because he played with horrible teammates (although he only had 2 years where he played with true scrubs, and he spent 8 yrs with prime Shaq, gimme a freakin' break). And anyways, he didn't accomplish anything legendary with those scrub teams, so what's the point of even bringing it up, as if it proves anything?

I've noticed this in many threads, not just this one btw.

Magic, on the otherhand, spent 10 years with an OLD Kareem, so I'm not buying the whole "he had wayyyyyy better teammates" argument. And even if he did, the 80s were a more competitive era so the argument fails regardless.

[BEAST Griffin]

I rather my best player force the issue than be passive in a big game ala LeBron James.

It also doesn't take into account it was CLEAR defense and nerves got to everyone in that game.

No one shot the ball well.

Kobe still made the appropriate plays in crunch time, and rebounded the well extremely well for a SG which helped dictate winning the game.

It was an identical performance to Dirk's in game 6 of this year's Finals. Only difference is Kobe didn't have someone making HUGE plays and shooting lights out the way Jason Terry did.

Dirk took good shots within the offense and missed. Kobe Bryant forced it and made it harder for his teammates.

[Jacks3]

That was a great series, but what did Kobe do in that Game 7 when the game/series was on the line?


yeah,he choked about as bad as Magic during the 84 Finals.

[jlauber]

yeah,he choked about as bad as Magic during the 84 Finals.

Yep..."Tragic" Johnson in the '84 Finals. 18.1 ppg; he LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg; he handed out 13.0 apg; and he shot .560 from the field (while Bird shot .484 and Kareem shot .481.)

[IGOTGAME]

Its hilarious how Kobe fans still can't just admit Kobe played a shit game in game 7 in 2010.

The moment got to him and he forced it like very few players have forced it before.

It was Gasol, Fisher, and Artest that made the biggest plays and shots as well. It wasn't a good game. Accept it and move on.

Nothing can change that.

not really, it looked like he was gassed. I don't think it got to him. Again it is your opinion. Stop acting like it is a fact.

[Jacks3]

Yep..."Tragic" Johnson in the '84 Finals. 18.1 ppg; he LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg; he handed out 13.0 apg; and he shot .560 from the field (while Bird shot .484 and Kareem shot .481.)
And...he still choked badly.

[Psileas]

And...he still choked badly.

And yet, with Kobe in 2004 there was almost* not even a "still", while we are at their respective least clutch Finals' series.

*Almost=Game 2, his only good game of the series.

[All Net]

Its hilarious how Kobe fans still can't just admit Kobe played a shit game in game 7 in 2010.

The moment got to him and he forced it like very few players have forced it before.

It was Gasol, Fisher, and Artest that made the biggest plays and shots as well. It wasn't a good game. Accept it and move on.

Nothing can change that. he was bad offensively but played well every where else including comin up big in the 4th with two huge jumpers late. He wasn't great offensively but was top draw on the boards and when it counted he stepped up. He just had great support that day.

[Jacks3]

And yet, with Kobe in 2004 there was almost* not even a "still", while we are at their respective least clutch Finals' series.

*Almost=Game 2, his only good game of the series.
Nah. There's a difference between simply shooting like crap like Kobe did...and making a bunch of silly mental errors in multiple games like Magic.Oh, and Bryant was playing the best defense ever. Magic's comp wasn't close in terms of defense...

In fact Kobe in the playoffs sees FAR tougher defenses than what Magic saw.

Look at the relative DRTG's. It's not even close.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Magic actually won a championship without Kareem = Automtaically makes him better than Kobe. Kobe cant win shit without Shaq or Gasol.

[Odinn]

Magic actually won a championship without Kareem = Automtaically makes him better than Kobe. Kobe cant win shit without Shaq or Gasol.
:wtf: :no:


Nah. There's a difference between simply shooting like crap like Kobe did...and making a bunch of silly mental errors in multiple games like Magic.Oh, and Bryant was playing the best defense ever. Magic's comp wasn't close in terms of defense...

In fact Kobe in the playoffs sees FAR tougher defenses than what Magic saw.

Look at the relative DRTG's. It's not even close.
:wtf: :no:

[MiseryCityTexas]

:wtf: :no:


:wtf: :no:

kareem did get hurt in one of them old nba finals and couldnt play you idiot. magic carried the lakers on his back with jamal wilkes, and a buncha role players. kobe could only dream of doing something like that without shaq or gasol. magic proved that he can win with limited help unlike kobe.

[DMAVS41]

not really, it looked like he was gassed. I don't think it got to him. Again it is your opinion. Stop acting like it is a fact.

I'm sorry, but it is simply a fact that Kobe played a bad game in game 7 in 2010. This is the exact reason people rag on Kobe here. His fans simply can never acknowledge when he plays poorly.

Was it the worst game ever? Hardly.

Was it a really bad game? Yes, and that is just a FACT. Stop acting like it isn't.

[Odinn]

kareem did get hurt in one of them old nba finals and couldnt play you idiot. magic carried the lakers on his back with jamal wilkes, and a buncha role players. kobe could only dream of doing something like that without shaq or gasol.
You're the one who's idiot. Kareem should have won the 1980 Finals MVP. He was the man. He led Lakers to title. One game, even tho one -epic- game doesn't change the fact Magic didn't win without Kareem. Now STFU.

[DMAVS41]

And...he still choked badly.

Only based on higher standards. That might have been Kobe's best finals performance.

Magic is held to a higher standard because he was a better big game and finals performer.

The idea that anyone would claim Kobe "choked" if he played as well as Magic did in 84 is hilarious.

Yes, Magic did come up short....and his stats are better than he played. However, how many people here actually saw that series?

Here is the game by game for those that didn't see it and don't know the numbers:

1 - 19/6/10 7-11 shooting
2 - 27/10/9 10-14 shooting
3 - 14/11/21 4-6 shooting
4 - 20/11/17 8-12 shooting
5 - 10/5/13 3-9 shooting
6 - 21/6/10 10-18 shooting
7 - 16/5/15 5-14 shooting


If Kobe played like that in the Finals and lost, all the Kobe stans would be claiming he got no help at all and it was all his teammates fault. LOL at any Kobe fan claiming Magic "choked" in 84 and then turning around and claiming Kobe didn't play poorly in game 7 in 2010.....

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Yep..."Tragic" Johnson in the '84 Finals. 18.1 ppg; he LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg; he handed out 13.0 apg; and he shot .560 from the field (while Bird shot .484 and Kareem shot .481.)

I'll never claim Magic was great, but he was hardly as bad as the media made him out to be.

Just another case of the BS perceptions that people here (that likely never even saw the series) hold onto.

[Jacks3]

:wtf: :no:
Um yeah. Statistically they were the best D ever. :confusedshrug:

[MiseryCityTexas]

You're the one who's idiot. Kareem should have won the 1980 Finals MVP. He was the man. He led Lakers to title. One game, even tho one -epic- game doesn't change the fact Magic didn't win without Kareem. Now STFU.

Magic still proved that he can win without Kareem, and Kobe still proved that he can't win without help so your still the idiot. Im pretty sure Magic shot a better field goal percenatage than Kobe also.

[Jacks3]

No, Kobe has had several better performances against much better defenses.

And yes, Magic did choke. When you're making huge mental errors in the clutch in multiple games...it's a choke-job.

:pimp:

[MiseryCityTexas]

Magic started at center and won a championship with Jamal Wilkes, Norn Nixon, and a bunch of scrubs while Kareem was hurt = better than Kobe.....................

[DMAVS41]

No, Kobe has had several better performances against much better defenses.

And yes, Magic did choke. When you're making huge mental errors in the clutch in multiple games...it's a choke-job.

:pimp:

So stay consistent. If you say that, then you must claim Kobe choked in 04. He definitely choked in 08 as well. Blowing a 24 point lead in a pivotal game 4 to tie the finals? Scoring only 17 points on 6 of 19 shooting as he and his team crumble in one of the biggest games of his career.....not to mention Kobe coming up small in game 6 of that series in a do or die game. Lose and the NBA finals are freaking over. Kobe starts the game hot telling the crowd "not tonight...not tonight"....he made 4 of his first 5 shots and then he proceeds to go 3 of 17 the rest of the way finishing with 7 of 22 with 3 boards and 1 assist and shows very little "fight" as his team gets roasted by 39 points. But yea, I guess he should get a pass for that.

And if making errors with the game on the line, how about Kobe's 4th qtr and crunch time play against the Celtics in 2010? How is that not choking. He shot something like 26% in the 4th qtrs and had crucial turnovers in 2 of the games. If it wasn't for Fisher taking over game 3 or Artest/Gasol making big shots, the Lakers would have lost in 5.

All I ask is that you stay consistent. I don't see how anyone can claim Magic was "tragic" in 84 and then turn around and not say the same things about Kobe for almost all of his finals....especially game 7 in 2010.

That is the very definition of a double standard.

[Jacks3]

No, not really.

Like I said...there's a big difference between simply not shooting well against great defenses...and making mental errors with games on the line. I wouldn't be so bad if it only happened once, but in three different games? Yeah, that's choking.

And yeah, Kobe was choking badly in the first half of Game 7, he was clearly feeling the pressure, but he bounced back and had a terrific 4th Q--10 pts/62% TS/4 rebs/2 ast. Made big play after big play down the stretch.

Anyway, I'll take Magic. I don't think he's all that much better as a player, but he does have better intangibles and b-ball IQ, which gives him the edge over Kobe.

[Odinn]

Magic still proved that he can win without Kareem, and Kobe still proved that he can't win without help so your still the idiot. Im pretty sure Magic shot a better field goal percenatage than Kobe also.
Did I say something otherwise?

I'm not a Kobe-stan. I almost hate that guy.

But your "Magic won without Kareem" argument not just true. Thanks to Kareem, that epic game was a series-clinching game. Just a one game wouldn't change the -Magic didn't win without Kareem- fact.

You proved you're a true idiot who can not understand the criticism about your argument.

Face it.

[konex]

WTF, Kobe at his worst (outside of the time before he was a starter) was better than Magic :hammerhead:

[Da_Realist]

Only based on higher standards. That might have been Kobe's best finals performance.

Magic is held to a higher standard because he was a better big game and finals performer.

The idea that anyone would claim Kobe "choked" if he played as well as Magic did in 84 is hilarious.

Yes, Magic did come up short....and his stats are better than he played. However, how many people here actually saw that series?

Here is the game by game for those that didn't see it and don't know the numbers:

1 - 19/6/10 7-11 shooting
2 - 27/10/9 10-14 shooting
3 - 14/11/21 4-6 shooting
4 - 20/11/17 8-12 shooting
5 - 10/5/13 3-9 shooting
6 - 21/6/10 10-18 shooting
7 - 16/5/15 5-14 shooting


If Kobe played like that in the Finals and lost, all the Kobe stans would be claiming he got no help at all and it was all his teammates fault. LOL at any Kobe fan claiming Magic "choked" in 84 and then turning around and claiming Kobe didn't play poorly in game 7 in 2010.....

:facepalm

Excellent post :applause:

[MiseryCityTexas]

Did I say something otherwise?

I'm not a Kobe-stan. I almost hate that guy.

But your "Magic won without Kareem" argument not just true. Thanks to Kareem, that epic game was a series-clinching game. Just a one game wouldn't change the -Magic didn't win without Kareem- fact.

You proved you're a true idiot who can not understand the criticism about your argument.

Face it.

Magic went to the Finals after Kareem's retirement also in the 90s with worthy, perkins, scott , and a bunch of scrubs, and still held his own against the bulls after worthy and scott's injuries, and that one game in the early 80s was enough to prove that magic can win a play-off/finals game without kareem, and is still a defining momemnt in nba history. how many play-off games have we seen Kobe win without Shaq and Gasol when he is not pussified and soft? Magic make his teammates much better, Kobe shoots his teammates out of basketball games if his shot's not falling, and his teammates carried him in the last championship that he won. Kobe a great player, but his clutch finals performances are very overrated and over exaggerated also compared to other legends. Kobe actually a better player in the regular season than he is in the play-offs.

[jlauber]

Only based on higher standards. That might have been Kobe's best finals performance.

Magic is held to a higher standard because he was a better big game and finals performer.

The idea that anyone would claim Kobe "choked" if he played as well as Magic did in 84 is hilarious.

Yes, Magic did come up short....and his stats are better than he played. However, how many people here actually saw that series?

Here is the game by game for those that didn't see it and don't know the numbers:

1 - 19/6/10 7-11 shooting
2 - 27/10/9 10-14 shooting
3 - 14/11/21 4-6 shooting
4 - 20/11/17 8-12 shooting
5 - 10/5/13 3-9 shooting
6 - 21/6/10 10-18 shooting
7 - 16/5/15 5-14 shooting


If Kobe played like that in the Finals and lost, all the Kobe stans would be claiming he got no help at all and it was all his teammates fault. LOL at any Kobe fan claiming Magic "choked" in 84 and then turning around and claiming Kobe didn't play poorly in game 7 in 2010.....

:facepalm

Great post. Those that saw that series, including one Larry Bird who PLAYED in it, would tell you that the Lakers BLEW that series, and should have SWEPT Boston (yes, Bird said so himself.) The Lakers easily won game one in Boston (building a 19 point lead late in the 3rd quarter and coasting to a win), and they destroyed the Celtics in game three by a 137-104 margin.) However, in game two, it was "Big Game James" Worthy who made a huge blunder. The Lakers had the lead, and the ball, with only seconds remaining, and with Worthy inbounding. Instead of simply flipping the ball to Magic, who was right next to him, he threw a cross-court pass that Henderson intercepted and scored the tying layup on. The game went into OT, and Boston won.

Now, if you want to blame Magic for game three...fine (with his triple-double, including 21 assists.) Once again, though, he got "help" from Worthy. The Lakers had a five point lead with 41 seconds left, but BOTH Worthy and Magic EACH missed two FT's down the stretch (obviously FOUR total), and that enabled Boston to tie the game...and they subsequently won it in OT.

Of course, Kareem was not without blame, either. He shot a relatively poor (for him anyway) .481 from the field, including a horrible 7-25 in the pivotal game five loss, which gave Boston a 3-2 lead.

In any case, to compare Magic's 2-3 miscues in that series, to a series in which Kobe completely shot his team right out of (in 2004) is ridiculous. IMHO, Magic was the BEST player on the floor in the '84 Finals. I know Bird fans will jump down my throat for that comment, but in any case, if that was BAD series for Magic, I am sure that 99% of the NBA players would love to have a series in which they played so "poorly."

Of course, find me a Finals in which Kobe averaged 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%, and .500 3pt% like Magic had in the '87 Finals, when he DOMINATED the Celtics. And find me ONE game, in all of his Finals, that compares with Magic's clinching game six win, on the road, and without his best teammate, and in which he played every position...and scored 42 points, with 15 rebounds (which was WAY better than the next best guy on the floor, who had 10), on 14-23 FGAs, and on 9-9 FTAs, and with seven assists. And speaking of the "better defenses" that Kobe faced...how about Magic in the '88 Finals (against Rodman and the Pistons), when he averaged 22 ppg on .550 shooting (the same Piston defense that limited Bird to .351 shooting in the same playoffs), and in a series in which Magic SHOULD have won his FOURTH Finals MVP.

[jlauber]

Did I say something otherwise?

I'm not a Kobe-stan. I almost hate that guy.

But your "Magic won without Kareem" argument not just true. Thanks to Kareem, that epic game was a series-clinching game. Just a one game wouldn't change the -Magic didn't win without Kareem- fact.

You proved you're a true idiot who can not understand the criticism about your argument.

Face it.

Actually one of the common misconceptions here is that Magic did not wn a ring without Kareem. TECHNICALLY, that is true. However, Magic's Lakers won the title in '88 DESPITE Kareem's poor post-season play. And as bad as Kareem was in the entire post-season, he was just AWFUL in the Finals. He was a foul prone, statue-playing defender, who averaged 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, and shot .414. And I have long maintained that the '87 Lakers were good enough to have won with Betty White playing center. Kareem was by that time, only their third best player, and Mychel Thompson and AC Green could have played just as well in absorbing his minutes.

Now, think about this...Kareem couldn't win more than 53 games in his four Laker years before Magic, (and he played on a 40-42 team.) Nor did any of his team's even sniff the Finals...in the weakest period of title winners in NBA history ('75 thru '79.) And, in his the two seasons before Magic, Kareem played with rosters that had Nixon, Hudson, Dantley, and Wilkes...and they were blown out in the early rounds of the playoffs by a Sonic's team that had ONE borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson), and which only went 47-35 and 52-30. Furthermore, Rick Barry, playing with ROOKIE Wilkes as his lone exceptional teammate, won a title with a 48-34 team...and yet Kareem, with a much more prime Wilkes, and far better surrounding players, was wiped out in the post-season. Then, Magic arrived, and en route to leading that '80-Laker team to a 60-22 record, including a game six win on the road withOUT Kareem, they crushed that Sonic's team, 4-1.

Then, AFTER Kareem retired, the Lakers went 63-19, which was their second best mark in the decade of the 80's, and followed that up with a 58-24 record and yet another Finals. Of course, AFTER Magic retired, the Lakers plummetted to 43-39 and 39-43 records.

Not only that, but Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting in EIGHT of their TEN seasons together, (the last eight BTW.) And, LA went 1-0 in the post-season with Magic playing without Kareem...and 0-3 with Kareem playing without Magic.

[DMAVS41]

Great post. Those that saw that series, including one Larry Bird who PLAYED in it, would tell you that the Lakers BLEW that series, and should have SWEPT Boston (yes, Bird said so himself.) The Lakers easily won game one in Boston (building a 19 point lead late in the 3rd quarter and coasting to a win), and they destroyed the Celtics in game three by a 137-104 margin.) However, in game two, it was "Big Game James" Worthy who made a huge blunder. The Lakers had the lead, and the ball, with only seconds remaining, and with Worthy inbounding. Instead of simply flipping the ball to Magic, who was right next to him, he threw a cross-court pass that Henderson intercepted and scored the tying layup on. The game went into OT, and Boston won.

Now, if you want to blame Magic for game three...fine (with his triple-double, including 21 assists.) Once again, though, he got "help" from Worthy. The Lakers had a five point lead with 41 seconds left, but BOTH Worthy and Magic EACH missed two FT's down the stretch (obviously FOUR total), and that enabled Boston to tie the game...and they subsequently won it in OT.

Of course, Kareem was not without blame, either. He shot a relatively poor (for him anyway) .481 from the field, including a horrible 7-25 in the pivotal game five loss, which gave Boston a 3-2 lead.

In any case, to compare Magic's 2-3 miscues in that series, to a series in which Kobe completely shot his team right out of (in 2004) is ridiculous. IMHO, Magic was the BEST player on the floor in the '84 Finals. I know Bird fans will jump down my throat for that comment, but in any case, if that was BAD series for Magic, I am sure that 99% of the NBA players would love to have a series in which they played so "poorly."

Of course, find me a Finals in which Kobe averaged 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%, and .500 3pt% like Magic had in the '87 Finals, when he DOMINATED the Celtics. And find me ONE game, in all of his Finals, that compares with Magic's clinching game six win, on the road, and without his best teammate, and in which he played every position...and scored 42 points, with 15 rebounds (which was WAY better than the next best guy on the floor, who had 10), on 14-23 FGAs, and on 9-9 FTAs, and with seven assists. And speaking of the "better defenses" that Kobe faced...how about Magic in the '88 Finals (against Rodman and the Pistons), when he averaged 22 ppg on .550 shooting (the same Piston defense that limited Bird to .351 shooting in the same playoffs), and in a series in which Magic SHOULD have won his FOURTH Finals MVP.

:applause:

Its simple. Magic was/is held to one of the highest standards for post season and finals play because he's one of the truly elite players of all time.

His series in 84 would be great for even some of the best players of all time. Dirk, for example, has not come close to that in his 2 finals appearances. If 84 was "tragic"....then most of the finals performances of some of the best players of all time are "horrendous"

Bird, for example, was then "horrid" in a number of finals....along with Kobe.

Using 84 against Magic in a comparison with Kobe is just silly. Magic is easily the better finals performer between the two.

I'm not going to sit here and claim that its absurd to compare Magic and Kobe. I personally think Magic was the superior player and there is no question in my mind, but Kobe is no doubt a great player as well.

However, this notion of Magic vs Kobe in the finals needs to stop. There is no comparison. Magic played some of his best basketball on the biggest stage....Kobe has played some of his worst ball. Huge difference.

[jlauber]

:applause:

Its simple. Magic was/is held to one of the highest standards for post season and finals play because he's one of the truly elite players of all time.

His series in 84 would be great for even some of the best players of all time. Dirk, for example, has not come close to that in his 2 finals appearances. If 84 was "tragic"....then most of the finals performances of some of the best players of all time are "horrendous"

Bird, for example, was then "horrid" in a number of finals....along with Kobe.

Using 84 against Magic in a comparison with Kobe is just silly. Magic is easily the better finals performer between the two.

I'm not going to sit here and claim that its absurd to compare Magic and Kobe. I personally think Magic was the superior player and there is no question in my mind, but Kobe is no doubt a great player as well.

However, this notion of Magic vs Kobe in the finals needs to stop. There is no comparison. Magic played some of his best basketball on the biggest stage....Kobe has played some of his worst ball. Huge difference.


Nothing more to add to that.

:cheers:

[blablabla]

peak magic < peak kobe << peak bird

[Flamboyant]

Only based on higher standards. That might have been Kobe's best finals performance.

Magic is held to a higher standard because he was a better big game and finals performer.

The idea that anyone would claim Kobe "choked" if he played as well as Magic did in 84 is hilarious.

Yes, Magic did come up short....and his stats are better than he played. However, how many people here actually saw that series?

Here is the game by game for those that didn't see it and don't know the numbers:

1 - 19/6/10 7-11 shooting
2 - 27/10/9 10-14 shooting
3 - 14/11/21 4-6 shooting
4 - 20/11/17 8-12 shooting
5 - 10/5/13 3-9 shooting
6 - 21/6/10 10-18 shooting
7 - 16/5/15 5-14 shooting


If Kobe played like that in the Finals and lost, all the Kobe stans would be claiming he got no help at all and it was all his teammates fault. LOL at any Kobe fan claiming Magic "choked" in 84 and then turning around and claiming Kobe didn't play poorly in game 7 in 2010.....

:facepalm

Oh pretty please stop the double standard. (lol@ same people all over again calling this biased post an excellent one).

You said Kobe played bad in game 7. Read again: GAME 7. Now someone calls out Magic's 84 finals, and you bring up his series. Read again: HIS WHOLE SERIES. And you end up crying for double standards.
Before you start playing the usual "revisionist history" let me remind you that, before game 7 experts were saying that Kobe should win FMVP even if the Celtics win. That's how head and shoulders Kobe was above everyone else. Did he play great? Hell no! But he was yet again the best player on the court. He lead both teams in scoring, FT attempts, and was the 2nd in rebounding. That's what brought LA the victory. As bad as his game 7 was (by his standards that is), it was still better than Magic's 84' gm7 (who lost the game), and of Dirk's last year (who missed easy shots, and got outplayed by a teammate.)

Don't get me wrong, I'll be the last one to go on Magic for his 84 finals. (As pointed out before) That series could have been a sweep in LA's favor. But in your own words, "It's what actually happened, not what could have potentially been." Magic lost the series, and he had a bad game 7.

So now you tell me, who has a double standard? :rolleyes:

[guy]

Oh pretty please stop the double standard. (lol@ same people all over again calling this biased post an excellent one).

You said Kobe played bad in game 7. Read again: GAME 7. Now someone calls out Magic's 84 finals, and you bring up his series. Read again: HIS WHOLE SERIES. And you end up crying for double standards.
Before you start playing the usual "revisionist history" let me remind you that, before game 7 experts were saying that Kobe should win FMVP even if the Celtics win. That's how head and shoulders Kobe was above everyone else. Did he play great? Hell no! But he was yet again the best player on the court. He lead both teams in scoring, FT attempts, and was the 2nd in rebounding. That's what brought LA the victory. As bad as his game 7 was (by his standards that is), it was still better than Magic's 84' gm7 (who lost the game), and of Dirk's last year (who missed easy shots, and got outplayed by a teammate.)


I remember that only being said after his great game 5, which was a loss. I also remember experts saying Kobe was the reason they lost cause his teammates didnt get the ball enough and weren't in rhythm. I don't think thats true, just saying that you can't really trust the experts that much cause alot of times they have conflicting views. And either way, IT WOULDNT HAVE HAPPENED if the Celtics won. At the very least, Paul Pierce would've gotten MVP. It would have to take something spectacular for a player from the losing team to win FMVP, and Kobe was anything but that. It would've been like if they gave the FMVP to Shaq over Billups in 04.

[DMAVS41]

Oh pretty please stop the double standard. (lol@ same people all over again calling this biased post an excellent one).

You said Kobe played bad in game 7. Read again: GAME 7. Now someone calls out Magic's 84 finals, and you bring up his series. Read again: HIS WHOLE SERIES. And you end up crying for double standards.
Before you start playing the usual "revisionist history" let me remind you that, before game 7 experts were saying that Kobe should win FMVP even if the Celtics win. That's how head and shoulders Kobe was above everyone else. Did he play great? Hell no! But he was yet again the best player on the court. He lead both teams in scoring, FT attempts, and was the 2nd in rebounding. That's what brought LA the victory. As bad as his game 7 was (by his standards that is), it was still better than Magic's 84' gm7 (who lost the game), and of Dirk's last year (who missed easy shots, and got outplayed by a teammate.)

Don't get me wrong, I'll be the last one to go on Magic for his 84 finals. (As pointed out before) That series could have been a sweep in LA's favor. But in your own words, "It's what actually happened, not what could have potentially been." Magic lost the series, and he had a bad game 7.

So now you tell me, who has a double standard? :rolleyes:


I'm not claiming Magic played great. In fact, I said he played worse than his stats.

And I never claimed Dirk played well either. I think his game 6 was better than Kobe's game 7, but that isn't what this is about.

The double standard is when Kobe fans call out Magic for his 84 finals and then fail to mention Kobe's history of poor finals game. The double standard is when they claim Magic "choked"....and don't claim Kobe did a number of times in the finals based on the same standard. The double standard is when Kobe fans still won't ****ing admit that Kobe played a shit game 7. He went 6 of 24 and took horrible shots outside the offense and flat out killed his team through three qtrs. It literally took an act of the basketball gods that ray allen couldn't throw it in the ocean or that game was over.

You act like I claim Magic was great in 84. Never said that.
You act like I claim Dirk was great in 11. Never said that. In fact, using the absurd standards people are using for Magic......I claimed Dirk would have been "horrid" based on those standards. Dirk was horrible in the first half of game 6 this year. Horrible. He settled too many times and missed good looks. However, he played a really big 2nd half and 4th qtr and he was hardly killing the offense the way Kobe did. I'll take Dirk's performance over Kobe's, but neither was good. My post was toward people (Kobe fans) that create the double standard of failing to admit Kobe came up really small in that game. Towards the people (Kobe fans) that prop up Kobe for his 15 boards and then tear down Lebron for his game 6 performance against the same team in which he got 18 boards. Saying Lebron stat pads....etc.

That is the double standard. If you can't see it, thats on you. And again, I'm not claiming Magic was great in 84. He wasn't. But a Magic vs Kobe comparison in favor of Kobe has no business being about any finals performances....because Magic destroys Kobe in that area and his "tragic" series would have been one of Kobe's best....if not his best.

[Flamboyant]

I remember that only being said after his great game 5, which was a loss. I also remember experts saying Kobe was the reason they lost cause his teammates didnt get the ball enough and weren't in rhythm. I don't think thats true, just saying that you can't really trust the experts that much cause alot of times they have conflicting views. And either way, IT WOULDNT HAVE HAPPENED if the Celtics won. At the very least, Paul Pierce would've gotten MVP. It would have to take something spectacular for a player from the losing team to win FMVP, and Kobe was anything but that. It would've been like if they gave the FMVP to Shaq over Billups in 04.

They didn't stop saying that after the Lakers won gm 6, and the scenario was still the same. I agree that it's stupid, and that it wouldn't (and shouldn't) have happened. But if there was a player to get it in the final decade, it was definitely Kobe last year. He was spectacular in the first 6 games. Shaq 04 has no case, since his team won only a single game, and in that game he wasn't even the best player of his team.


I'm not claiming Magic played great. In fact, I said he played worse than his stats.

And I never claimed Dirk played well either. I think his game 6 was better than Kobe's game 7, but that isn't what this is about.

The double standard is when Kobe fans call out Magic for his 84 finals and then fail to mention Kobe's history of poor finals game. The double standard is when they claim Magic "choked"....and don't claim Kobe did a number of times in the finals based on the same standard. The double standard is when Kobe fans still won't ****ing admit that Kobe played a shit game 7. He went 6 of 24 and took horrible shots outside the offense and flat out killed his team through three qtrs. It literally took an act of the basketball gods that ray allen couldn't throw it in the ocean or that game was over.

You act like I claim Magic was great in 84. Never said that.
You act like I claim Dirk was great in 11. Never said that. In fact, using the absurd standards people are using for Magic......I claimed Dirk would have been "horrid" based on those standards. Dirk was horrible in the first half of game 6 this year. Horrible. He settled too many times and missed good looks. However, he played a really big 2nd half and 4th qtr and he was hardly killing the offense the way Kobe did. I'll take Dirk's performance over Kobe's, but neither was good. My post was toward people (Kobe fans) that create the double standard of failing to admit Kobe came up really small in that game. Towards the people (Kobe fans) that prop up Kobe for his 15 boards and then tear down Lebron for his game 6 performance against the same team in which he got 18 boards. Saying Lebron stat pads....etc.

That is the double standard. If you can't see it, thats on you. And again, I'm not claiming Magic was great in 84. He wasn't. But a Magic vs Kobe comparison in favor of Kobe has no business being about any finals performances....because Magic destroys Kobe in that area and his "tragic" series would have been one of Kobe's best....if not his best.

First, and foremost Dirk did play great in 2011, and wasn't bad in game 6 either.

Now... You're not claiming Magic played great. You're not claiming that Dirk played great, either. But you're claiming that Kobe played like shit. Yep, that's an effin' double standard. The game 7 was first brought up by EllEffEll, asking what did Kobe do in game 7, and Jacks replied "yeah,he choked about as bad as Magic during the 84 Finals." As you can see the post that you were replying was claiming that Kobe choked indeed (which IMO he didn't), and was in a fairly reasonable fashion for a Magic v Kobe thread. So no, there was no double standard on Kobe fans part. You (in plural) then started responding telling how underrated Magic's 84 Finals were. But you took it way too far. As an overall series, it has no business to be compared to Kobe's, or Dirk's finals. While these two had rather poor title clinching games, both had 10 4th qtr points, and neither did cost their teams any games in the series. Now Magic arguably did cost the Lakers all the four games they lost. I don't care what overall stats say, Magic didn't close the door in the first two games, and shot 3/9 & 5/14 in the letter two. No dude it wasn't even close to Kobe or Dirk. I repeat it wasn't "Tragic." But it's certainly not holding it to a higher standard.

And I like your description of Dirk's game. You give credit for his 4th qtr (credit which is due), even though he was pretty bad in the first 3 qtrs. Why can't you do same for Kobe? Kobe did score more points, had more assists, more rebounds, and also got to the line more. You claim that Kobe killed the offense, when the offense was dead to begin with, and yet somehow Kobe ended with less FGAs than Dirk. Both games were pretty identical for me. Dirk got it together in the forth, but overall he missed much easier shots than Kobe. Kobe struggled with his shooting, but he contributed with defense, rebounding, and got his by going to the line.

[Killer_Instinct]

They are different players. Kobe does a lot of things that Magic could never never do. Kobe is a better defender and is a better scorer, and probably is the better individual player. Especially at his peak.

But you can argue that Magic will probably help the team better. Him being on the floor will produce a better offense of the team than Kobe could at his peak or anybody else because Magic might be the best at running the offense, and he was really really efficient. Magic play could produce more wins, but that is arguable and we would never know for sure I suppose.

Kobe did shine himself out of just being Shaq's "sidekick" and turned to one of greatest players.


Thread should have been locked after this.

[DMAVS41]

They didn't stop saying that after the Lakers won gm 6, and the scenario was still the same. I agree that it's stupid, and that it wouldn't (and shouldn't) have happened. But if there was a player to get it in the final decade, it was definitely Kobe last year. He was spectacular in the first 6 games. Shaq 04 has no case, since his team won only a single game, and in that game he wasn't even the best player of his team.



First, and foremost Dirk did play great in 2011, and wasn't bad in game 6 either.

Now... You're not claiming Magic played great. You're not claiming that Dirk played great, either. But you're claiming that Kobe played like shit. Yep, that's an effin' double standard. The game 7 was first brought up by EllEffEll, asking what did Kobe do in game 7, and Jacks replied "yeah,he choked about as bad as Magic during the 84 Finals." As you can see the post that you were replying was claiming that Kobe choked indeed (which IMO he didn't), and was in a fairly reasonable fashion for a Magic v Kobe thread. So no, there was no double standard on Kobe fans part. You (in plural) then started responding telling how underrated Magic's 84 Finals were. But you took it way too far. As an overall series, it has no business to be compared to Kobe's, or Dirk's finals. While these two had rather poor title clinching games, both had 10 4th qtr points, and neither did cost their teams any games in the series. Now Magic arguably did cost the Lakers all the four games they lost. I don't care what overall stats say, Magic didn't close the door in the first two games, and shot 3/9 & 5/14 in the letter two. No dude it wasn't even close to Kobe or Dirk. I repeat it wasn't "Tragic." But it's certainly not holding it to a higher standard.

And I like your description of Dirk's game. You give credit for his 4th qtr (credit which is due), even though he was pretty bad in the first 3 qtrs. Why can't you do same for Kobe? Kobe did score more points, had more assists, more rebounds, and also got to the line more. You claim that Kobe killed the offense, when the offense was dead to begin with, and yet somehow Kobe ended with less FGAs than Dirk. Both games were pretty identical for me. Dirk got it together in the forth, but overall he missed much easier shots than Kobe. Kobe struggled with his shooting, but he contributed with defense, rebounding, and got his by going to the line.

I disagree.

I think there is a huge difference between good shots and bad shots. Dirk got great looks in the first half for the most part. He went 1 of 12.....8 of those shots were "must take" shots that came within the flow of the offense.

Its not about the stats for me. Which I have said from the beginning. It was the way Kobe played.

Do I give Kobe credit for his 4th? Sure, but it was gasol/artest/fisher making the biggest shots/plays.

But again, I also said Dirk played a horrible game. So its not a double standard.

And Magic was not horrible in 84. Magic's finals in 84 would be about as good as Kobe has ever played in the finals.

Hence the actual double standard.