Worst MVP in NBA history?

[JerrySteakhouse]

Well, not a tough one. Clearly it is Derrick Rose.

25ppg, 4 rpg, 8 assists

Wade was better his second year in the league with

26 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg


Yeah Bulls got the best record of the regular season but that doesn't change the fact he is the worst MVP of all time. :facepalm

[TMT]

If you watched the NBA through the years you'd know there's a system with the awards. The MVP goes to the best player on the best team during the regular season. That's just how it is.

[28renyoy]

Rose /thread


Actually Wes Unseld, but that was in the 60's when basketball was a joke.

in b4 jlauber

[JerrySteakhouse]

If you watched the NBA through the years you'd know there's a system with the awards. The MVP goes to the best player on the best team during the regular season. That's just how it is.

Did I say Rose was not the best player this year?

Just saying if you compare him with ANY MVP in the past he is the worst of all.

What a weak year.

[Lucifer]

LeBron James.

[JerrySteakhouse]

Rose /thread


Actually Wes Unseld, but that was in the 60's when basketball was a joke.

in b4 jlauber
Yeah, not even going to consider the shit back before the 80. :lol

[TMT]

Did I say Rose was not the best player this year?

Just saying if you compare him with ANY MVP in the past he is the worst of all.

What a weak year.

I wouldn't say a weak year, because there were really a lot of teams that posed strong championship threats, but as far as individuals who single-handedly lead their teams to the top of their respective conferences, yes it was relatively hard to make the MVP choice. But at the end of the regular season Rose deserved it, even with his pretty evenly talented across the board team. Not like there were any better choices.

Heat - Bron + Wade = No MVPs for you
Spurs - No clear leader worthy of MVP
Celtics - same as Spurs
Lakers - not dominant enough this year for another Kobe MVP
Mavs - didn't show full potential until playoffs
Thunder - too low a seed for Durant MVP

[28renyoy]

I wouldn't say a weak year, because there were really a lot of teams that posed strong championship threats, but as far as individuals who single-handedly lead their teams to the top of their respective conferences, yes it was relatively hard to make the MVP choice. But at the end of the regular season Rose deserved it, even with his pretty evenly talented across the board team. Not like there were any better choices.

Heat - Bron + Wade = No MVPs for you
Spurs - No clear leader worthy of MVP
Celtics - same as Spurs
Lakers - not dominant enough this year for another Kobe MVP
Mavs - didn't show full potential until playoffs
Thunder - too low a seed for Durant MVP

09-10 LeBron, Durant
08-09 LeBron, Paul, Wade, Kobe
07-08 Kobe, Paul, Garnett


All of these players from those seasons with the MVP this year

[purplch0de]

steve nash over kobe mvp

[Peteballa]

LeBron James.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: What an unexpected answer!

[GreatGreg]

Heat - Bron + Wade = No MVPs for you
Spurs - No clear leader worthy of MVP
Celtics - same as Spurs
Lakers - not dominant enough this year for another Kobe MVP
Mavs - didn't show full potential until playoffs
Thunder - too low a seed for Durant MVP
This. All these are reasons why Rose won the MVP.
And get off his jock people, for Christ's sake. He was the youngest ever to win the award. He's going to be even better next season.

[28renyoy]

This. All these are reasons why Rose won the MVP.
And get off his jock people, for Christ's sake. He was the youngest ever to win the award. He's going to be even better next season.

Wes Unseld was the youngest MVP prior to Rose. Half of this board doesn't even know who he is.

[GreatGreg]

Yeah, not even going to consider the shit back before the 80. :lol
And if you say that, then you clearly have an anti-Rose agenda which is actually kind of strange and funny.

[Scoooter]

I don't know about worst all time, but pretty weak. Should have been Dwight or Dirk.

[JerrySteakhouse]

And if you say that, then you clearly have an anti-Rose agenda which is actually kind of strange and funny.

Name one player who wasn't better than Rose?

[Swaggin916]

Wes Unseld was the youngest MVP prior to Rose. Half of this board doesn't even know who he is.

Well he wasn't that good... but most people only know a few players from the 60's and 70's you are right. It just wasn't a good era for bball. but yea I would have to agree unseld probably the worst MVP. derrick Rose? How is he any worse of an MVP than Nash?

[PHILA]

Actually Wes Unseld, but that was in the 60's when basketball was a joke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgU4nMeOQmA#t=8m58s



http://courtsideanalyst.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/did-they-understand-win-score-in-the-1960s/


[i]Did they understand the hidden game of basketball better in the 1960s?

By tywill33

http://i.imgur.com/OASq5.jpg

In the 1960s, Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics won multiple MVPs and was generally considered the game

[PHILA]

[I]The interesting thing about the All-Star teams is the number of inspired choices. I don

[ballerz]

Get over it. He lead his team to the best record, stop creating uncalled threads just to bash rose.

[1987_Lakers]

Ya, Wes Unseld is by far the worst MVP ever.

[kentatm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgU4nMeOQmA#t=8m58s



http://courtsideanalyst.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/did-they-understand-win-score-in-the-1960s/


[i]Did they understand the hidden game of basketball better in the 1960s?



that was a pretty interesting article. It makes some decent points about how it seems the view of what makes players great has changed.

[Batz]

I don't know about worst all time, but pretty weak. Should have been Dwight or Dirk.
Dwight? His team record was definitely not good enough to warrant MVP, though he's probably the best player. Just not the MVP. Dirk? 3rd seed in the west with stats worse than Rose. Definitely the best player in the playoffs, but voting for MVP ends in mid-April (?) so not much argument for Dirk.

[Meticode]

steve nash over kobe mvp
This.

[jlauber]

Ya, Wes Unseld is by far the worst MVP ever.

Not sure about the worst ever, but once again, Chamberlain was slighted in the MVP balloting that season. Unseld won the award, with his 57-25 Bullets, while averaging 13.8 ppg, 18.2 rpg, 2.6 apg, and shooting .476 from the floor. Meanwhile, Chamberlain was not in the top-NINE of the MVP balloting, and all he did that season, and with a 55-27 Laker team, was average 20.5 ppg, lead the league in rebounding at 21.1 rpg, lead the league in FG% at .583, and hand out 4.5 apg.

[Scholar]

steve nash over kobe mvp

Agreed. Kobe was the clear MVP back in 2005-06.
Just saying.

[PowerGlove]

Agreed. Kobe was the clear MVP back in 2005-06.
Just saying.
That shit was so bad....

[G-train]

Steve Nash won MVP over Shaq in Shaq's first year at Miami. That was a complete DISGRACE and the media should have been stripped of voting rights immediately.

This year Lebron James was the best player in the regular season, plus played on a winning team. He should have won, with Rose 2nd.

[get these NETS]

read that unseld won a ring and got finals mvp....

rookie of the year, mvp, ring,finals mvp

got HOF and I think 50 greatest


that's everything you could possibly hope to get as a player

[midatlantic09]

I'll go with Steve Nash on this one.

[Nick Young]

Lebron James. How can a man who only plays 3/4 of every game win two MVPs:facepalm

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Nash in 06

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Lebron James. How can a man who only plays 3/4 of every game win two MVPs:facepalm
Because the MVPs are a regular season reward, and how a man plays past that point really doesn't matter. Someone could dominate the regular season by getting his team the best record in the league, suck badly in the playoffs and still win.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: at so many mentions of Nash. Look at what he did for that Suns offense, and he had a legit case both years. He wasn't the best player in the league, but he had a legit case for MVP.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Well obviously everyone who won has a legit case, or else why would they be in the running for it?

It's called Worst MVP. And I guess people define worst is when someone wins when he clearly isn't the best guy in the league

[SteveNashMVPcro]

:oldlol: at so many mentions of Nash. Look at what he did for that Suns offense, and he had a legit case both years. He wasn't the best player in the league, but he had a legit case for MVP.
+1

@eat like a bosh:"And I guess people define worst is when someone wins when he clearly isn't the best guy in the league" it's not the best player in the league award it's the most VALUABLE player award.Nash ment to the Suns as much as Kobe did for the Lakers.And the Suns had a better record.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's called Worst MVP. And I guess people define worst is when someone wins when he clearly isn't the best guy in the league

how often has the best player in the league won it?

Since 1990.These are the years I can think of

1991- Jordan
1992- Jordan
1994- Hakeem
1996- Jordan
1998- Jordan
2000- Shaq
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2008- Kobe
2009- Lebron
2010- Lebron

So 11 times in the last 21 years the award has been given to the best player in the league.

[Duncan21formvp]

Nash in 2005. He averaged 15 ppg and 11 apg and didn't led his team in either PER, WS or WS/PER 48 minutes. At least Rose led his team in all 3.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Nash in 2005. He averaged 15 ppg and 11 apg and didn't led his team in either PER, WS or WS/PER 48 minutes. At least Rose led his team in all 3.
Except that he averaged 16 ppg and 11 apg and he also shot a 89/50/43. :rolleyes:

[DuMa]

lots of nash haters in here. or just kobe fans mad that they took his MVPs :oldlol:

[StacksOnDeck]

lots of nash haters in here. or just kobe fans mad that they took his MVPs :oldlol:

At least you admit Nash took Kobe's MVP. Stupid Korean. :oldlol:

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Nash in 2005. He averaged 15 ppg and 11 apg and didn't led his team in either PER, WS or WS/PER 48 minutes. At least Rose led his team in all 3.
stats
the Suns went 2-5 without him and 60 15 with him.The season be4 the Suns had won 29 games-that season 62

[ShaqAttack3234]

Nash in 2005. He averaged 15 ppg and 11 apg and didn't led his team in either PER, WS or WS/PER 48 minutes. At least Rose led his team in all 3.

If you're going to round the numbers, at least round them correctly. .5 is rounded up. So you'd have 16/3/12, and then consider his efficiency(50 FG%, 43 3P%, 89 FT%, 61 TS%).

At least Nash(known for their offense and the leader of their offense) was on a team that achieved the best record because of their offense.

Nash's team was the 17th best defensive or 14th worst defensive team in a 30 team league and they were outrebounded by 2 rpg per game. Why did they win? Because they were by far the best offensive team in the league.

Rose's team was the 11th best offensive team, but the best defensive team and they outrebounded opponents by an amazing 5.7 rpg.

And yes, Nash played with talent, but Phoenix was 2-5 without him.

The Suns offensive rating when Nash was on the court- 121.7
The Suns offensive rating when Nash was off the court- 104.1

Nash made that team an offensive juggernaut, can you say Rose did that for Chicago's defense and rebounding?

[Duncan21formvp]

If you're going to round the numbers, at least round them correctly. .5 is rounded up. So you'd have 16/3/12, and then consider his efficiency(50 FG%, 43 3P%, 89 FT%, 61 TS%).

At least Nash(known for their offense and the leader of their offense) was on a team that achieved the best record because of their offense.

Nash's team was the 17th best defensive or 14th worst defensive team in a 30 team league and they were outrebounded by 2 rpg per game. Why did they win? Because they were by far the best offensive team in the league.

Rose's team was the 11th best offensive team, but the best defensive team and they outrebounded opponents by an amazing 5.7 rpg.

And yes, Nash played with talent, but Phoenix was 2-5 without him.

The Suns offensive rating when Nash was on the court- 121.7
The Suns offensive rating when Nash was off the court- 104.1

Nash made that team an offensive juggernaut, can you say Rose did that for Chicago's defense and rebounding?

Nash had a guy who averaged 37 ppg in the Conference Finals against prime Tim duncan and still lost with HCA.

[Nero Tulip]

I wouldn't say a weak year, because there were really a lot of teams that posed strong championship threats, but as far as individuals who single-handedly lead their teams to the top of their respective conferences, yes it was relatively hard to make the MVP choice. But at the end of the regular season Rose deserved it, even with his pretty evenly talented across the board team. Not like there were any better choices.

Heat - Bron + Wade = No MVPs for you
Spurs - No clear leader worthy of MVP
Celtics - same as Spurs
Lakers - not dominant enough this year for another Kobe MVP
Mavs - didn't show full potential until playoffs
Thunder - too low a seed for Durant MVP

I think the Mavs showed their potential in the regular season, it's just that people weren't paying attention because of their past. Besides, a lot of their losses were from when Dirk was injured.

I've been saying all along, Dirk should've been MVP this year but people were laughing at me. I understand why Rose got it but Dirk deserved it more IMO.

[DuMa]

At least you admit Nash took Kobe's MVP. Stupid Korean. :oldlol:

this idiot cant read a simple sentence. i admit nothing.

[Nero Tulip]

If you're going to round the numbers, at least round them correctly. .5 is rounded up. So you'd have 16/3/12, and then consider his efficiency(50 FG%, 43 3P%, 89 FT%, 61 TS%).

At least Nash(known for their offense and the leader of their offense) was on a team that achieved the best record because of their offense.

Nash's team was the 17th best defensive or 14th worst defensive team in a 30 team league and they were outrebounded by 2 rpg per game. Why did they win? Because they were by far the best offensive team in the league.

Rose's team was the 11th best offensive team, but the best defensive team and they outrebounded opponents by an amazing 5.7 rpg.

And yes, Nash played with talent, but Phoenix was 2-5 without him.

The Suns offensive rating when Nash was on the court- 121.7
The Suns offensive rating when Nash was off the court- 104.1

Nash made that team an offensive juggernaut, can you say Rose did that for Chicago's defense and rebounding?

And thus every Nash hater was forced to shut their mouth :applause:

[Bigsmoke]

I'm not a Nash hater but I perfer Rose over Nash.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Nash had a guy who averaged 37 ppg in the Conference Finals against prime Tim duncan and still lost with HCA.
Nash and Amare playied well against TD and the Spurs but the rest of the team sucked.Not to mention that Timmy also scored like 30ppg on him and outrebounded him.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Nash had a guy who averaged 37 ppg in the Conference Finals against prime Tim duncan and still lost with HCA.

Wait, so you want to bring playoffs into the discussion?

Nash in 2005- 24/5/11, 52 FG%, 39 3P%, 92 FT%, 60 TS%
Rose in 2011- 27/4/8, 40 FG%, 25 3P%, 83 FT%, 50 TS%

And you're forgetting that the 2005 Spurs were a great team and that Joe Johnson was injured.

but, if you're going to bring the playoffs into the discussion, then you might want to remember that Rose shot 35% in the conference finals and also lost with homecourt advantage.

[DuMa]

I'm not a Nash hater but I perfer Rose over Nash.

im not a rose hater but i believed this year was the first time we deserved co-mvps no matter how ridiculous of an oxymoron that sounded.

but i would rather have an PG that made the offense run as flawless as those suns did. rather than a scoring PG any day.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Wait, so you want to bring playoffs into the discussion?

Nash in 2005- 24/5/11, 52 FG%, 39 3P%, 92 FT%, 60 TS%
Rose in 2011- 27/4/8, 40 FG%, 25 3P%, 83 FT%, 50 TS%

And you're forgetting that the 2005 Spurs were a great team and that Joe Johnson was injured.

but, if you're going to bring the playoffs into the discussion, then you might want to remember that Rose shot 35% in the conference finals and also lost with homecourt advantage.
And Nash was the player who made the Suns whole offence work
also the Suns had only like a 7 man rotation.Suns bench scored on average scored less than 10 points wich is really awful

[winwin]

At least you admit Nash took Kobe's MVP. Stupid Korean. :oldlol:

Vietnamese

[Rowe]

read that unseld won a ring and got finals mvp....

rookie of the year, mvp, ring,finals mvp

got HOF and I think 50 greatest


that's everything you could possibly hope to get as a player
This.

A lot of people didnt see this post.

Rookie of The Year
NBA MVP
NBA Finals MVP
NBA Champion

All in 1 season.
Anybody in this day & age to pull off that feat would get hyped to the moon.

[Samurai Swoosh]

then you might want to remember that Rose shot 35% in the conference finals and also lost with homecourt advantage.
Anyone with a brain knew they weren't the better team, though ... c'mon.

He was being guarded by LeBron who didn't have to carry the load on offense the way Rose did for the Bulls, and the whole Heat defense was determined to not let Rose get to the rim. No one else on the Bulls could create.

LMAO @ holding this series against him.

The worst MVP selections of all-time were

Magic in 1990
Barkley in 1993
Malone in 1998
Nash in 2006
Nowitzki in 2007

[DirkNowitzki41]

Anyone with a brain knew they weren't the better team, though ... c'mon.

He was being guarded by LeBron who didn't have to carry the load on offense the way Rose did for the Bulls, and the whole Heat defense was determined to not let Rose get to the rim. No one else on the Bulls could create.

LMAO @ holding this series against him.

The worst MVP selections of all-time were

Magic in 1990
Barkley in 1993
Malone in 1998
Nash in 2006
Nowitzki in 2007

What a surprise. :oldlol: :oldlol:

Rose is the worst by far brah. Sorry, but it's true.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Nowitzki in 2007
Dallas had one of the best regular season records in nba history and Dirk had a 25 9 on 51% shooting statline
he did choke in the playoofs but MVP is a regular season award

[ShaqAttack3234]

Anyone with a brain knew they weren't the better team, though ... c'mon.

He was being guarded by LeBron who didn't have to carry the load on offense the way Rose did for the Bulls, and the whole Heat defense was determined to not let Rose get to the rim. No one else on the Bulls could create.

LMAO @ holding this series against him.

Shooting 35% is pretty bad regardless, I criticize Lebron for shooting that poorly vs San Antonio and Boston who were better defensive teams than Miami.


The worst MVP selections of all-time were

Magic in 1990
Barkley in 1993
Malone in 1998
Nash in 2006
Nowitzki in 2007

You mean 1997 for Malone? If so, I'd put that one up there.

Magic in 1990? Nah, Magic was good enough so that if you combine his level of play with the fact that LA easily had the best record in the league, it's a reasonable selection. I have Jordan for that year, though, I don't question my choice much myself.

Barkley in 1993? I got Dream for MVP that year, but Barkley was also reasonable. Phoenix wound up with the best record in the league despite KJ missing 33 games and not playing like himself. Phoenix was also just 1-5 without Barkley and Charles led his team in scoring with almost 9 ppg more than their next highest scorer, led them in rebounding by almost 7 boards per game compared to their next leading scorer and only KJ averaged more assists, but again, he missed 33 games.

Nash in 2006? Well, Amare was out for the season and he still led Phoenix to 54 wins while upping his scoring average, still setting up everyone up and shooting the ball extremely well. But, that year is tough. I can see the case for Kobe(Best player in the game, team clearly overachieved), but 45-37 is extremely low for MVP. Dirk was also a legit candidate because he won 60 games and played very individually. But that year is really tough to decide on MVP.

Dirk in 2007? Well, I know that your issue with this is what took place in the playoffs, but I separate that since MVP is a regular season award. However, when discussing the best player in the game, that would come into play for me.

[Pointguard]

Well, not a tough one. Clearly it is Derrick Rose.

25ppg, 4 rpg, 8 assists

Wade was better his second year in the league with

26 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg


Yeah Bulls got the best record of the regular season but that doesn't change the fact he is the worst MVP of all time. :facepalm

Nash 15.5 and 11.5 and 3.3 rebounds with Amare, Joe Johnson, and Allstar Shawn Marion. If Rose had that company... things would have really opened up for him.

[Nachooo]

This.

A lot of people didnt see this post.

Rookie of The Year
NBA MVP
NBA Finals MVP
NBA Champion

All in 1 season.
Anybody in this day & age to pull off that feat would get hyped to the moon.

Blake didnt win 3 of those 4 achievements this year... Dont think he could get hyped any more though...

[Samurai Swoosh]

06 Nash.... Should gone to Kobe
07 Nowitzki... Should have gone to Kobe.
Exactly ...

All these clowns want to have two way arguments about "this is a regular season award"

Oh really?

Well, then it was quite CLEAR as day Kobe Bryant was the best player in the universe those two seasons.

[1Time4YourMind]

Wes Unseld 1969? 1st time blatant hype case for MVP. the guy could rebound and was amazing in team basketball (picks, outlet passes, etc.) but that's about it, in his rookie year his offense was blehhhh *vomit* (as if it improved later on...)

not saying this is the worst mvp for sure, just throwing out one of the first names that come to mind.

[Pointguard]

Nash made that team an offensive juggernaut, can you say Rose did that for Chicago's defense and rebounding?

Very much so. Rose played one of the best positions in the sport and dominated the elite. Held them far below their game level and absolutely carried an offensively challenged team. You think Rose with Marion, Johnson, Amare and Barbosa wouldn't be an offensive juggernaut??? Name me another player that held Wade the way Rose did in the playoffs? Who held Wade like that on National television ever?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Who held Wade like that on National television ever?
Kirk Hinrich and that's it ...

[Ikill]

Like who is the worst player to ever win an MVP or least deserving when they won it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Very much so. Rose played one of the best positions in the sport and dominated the elite. Held them far below their game level and absolutely carried an offensively challenged team. You think Rose with Marion, Johnson, Amare and Barbosa wouldn't be an offensive juggernaut??? Name me another player that held Wade the way Rose did in the playoffs? Who held Wade like that on National television ever?

No idea, but I seriously doubt that team plays nearly as well with Rose as tey did Nash. And are you implying that Rose is an elite defender now? :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

No idea, but I seriously doubt that team plays nearly as well with Rose as tey did Nash. And are you implying that Rose is an elite defender now? :oldlol:
Rose isn't an elite defender, but he defended every "elite" contemporary PG that faced him well last year.

Including doing a fine job on Wade in the ECF.

And I'm sure Nash doesn't suit the Bulls roster the way Rose does. Rose played essentially two guard spots. That's why referencing his FG % is utterly retarded. He had the WORST starting SG in the league playing along side him. Rose had to create and chuck shots for the Bulls to even have a chance.

It's like Iverson in 2001. Who was clearly the MVP of the league. Same situation. You just don't like a little guy who out of context is forced to shoot a lot.

Context, kids.

Context.

:facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

Rose isn't an elite defender, but he defended every "elite" contemporary PG that faced him well last year.

Including doing a fine job on Wade in the ECF.

And I'm sure Nash doesn't suit the Bulls roster the way Rose does. Rose played essentially two guard spots. That's why referencing his FG % is utterly retarded. He had the WORST starting SG in the league playing along side him. Rose had to create and chuck shots for the Bulls to even have a chance.

It's like Iverson in 2001. Who was clearly the MVP of the league. Same situation. You just don't like a little guy who out of context is forced to shoot a lot.

Context, kids.

Context.

:facepalm

It has nothing to do with not liking Rose or Iverson. I have nothing against either player. Iverson is a hall of famer and was a top 4-5 player that year. Rose is a bit overrated, imo, but see no reason to dislike him. And actually, the situations are a lot alike. People completely ignored a big part of how both of those teams won.

Like Chicago, Philly was an elite defensive team and rebounding team. Their defense was top 5 and comparable to any defense in the league and they outrebounded opponents by 4 boards per game.

But I'm sure Iverson was responsible for that. :oldlol:

And of course, people like to say that he had to play great for them to win, despite the fact that they started 12-2 with him averaging an extremely unimpressive 22/5/5 on 38% shooting and they went a respectable 6-5 with him out of the lineup altogether.

Actually, Iverson over prime Shaq might be the worst selection ever.

And it's funny that you back up your case for Kobe deserving MVP in 2006 and 2007 with him being the best player in the game, but it's not the best player award, otherwise the Iverson and Rose selections would be even more laughable. And for the record, I do have Kobe ranked as the best in the game from '06-'08, and deserving of his 2008 MVP, possibly 2006 as well, though I'm undecided on that one.

[pauk]

25 - 4 - 8 is not so bad omg........ the problem is that he was EXTREMLY UNEFFICIENT............. he was shotjacking & chucking alot (and of the PG positions... what he did is like if you had a SG/SF averaging 40 FG attempts per game and shooting 30%)...... its not a PGs job to act like michael jordan or some superstar SG/SF scorer......... he tried to take to many shots out of his comfort (SKILL) zone and so his FG% & efficiency went to hell...... and took his team with him

[necya]

the problem with Rose is that he gott the trophey too young. i mean he can improve a lot and should be better in some years thanks to experience. but you can't blame him, he deserved it more than everyone. Dirk had a case imo, but people are obsessed with stats unfortunately...not good at all.

a good exemple is the famous triple double by Shaq in november 93 against the nets. everyone know from the boxscore on basketball-reference that he recorded 24pts 28rbd and 15blk.
but in fact he did not even get a triple double. he had a great game but not as great as people think.

[Samurai Swoosh]

But I'm sure Iverson was responsible for that. :oldlol:
You act like for one to be MVP, you exclusively have to be the ignition for the best attribute from a TEAM perspective.

Team defense, and team rebounding.

The point was Iverson and Rose took care of the other things. Like, putting the ball in the hole and taking over in "money on the table" moments of games when they needed a spark by an individual player to win games.

And both Iverson and Rose took over in dramatic fashion when called upon.


Actually, Iverson over prime Shaq might be the worst selection ever.
Hardly.

Like LeBron James this year, he automatically loses votes considering he played w/ a co top 5 talent in the league.

And it was an ELITE talent both on offense and defense.

No way does Shaq deserve an MVP when he shares the team w/ a 29 / 5 / 5 guy. There is no justification for an MVP when you got a guy on another team averaging 30 ppg on a team full of hustle players and defenders.

[DMAVS41]

Exactly ...

All these clowns want to have two way arguments about "this is a regular season award"

Oh really?

Well, then it was quite CLEAR as day Kobe Bryant was the best player in the universe those two seasons.

:facepalm

Dirk was easily more deserving of Kobe for MVP in 07. You should educate yourself on what the award actually is.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Dirk was easily more deserving of Kobe for MVP in 07. You should educate yourself on what the award actually is.
:oldlol:

Obviously you don't understand the very definition of the award is so subjective, it seemingly changes from year to year.

Study up, kiddo.

Wait, which brother am I talking to right now? The one who wears a Nowitzki jersey and is a life long Mavs fan? Or the one who likes Ginobili?

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol:

Obviously you don't understand the very definition of the award is so subjective, it seemingly changes from year to year.

Study up, kiddo.

Wait, which brother am I talking to right now? The one who wears a Nowitzki jersey and is a life long Mavs fan? Or the one who likes Ginobili?

It actually doesn't. The one thing that remains constant is team success. Again, educate yourself please.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Rose is being unfairly treated in this thread. I feel like a lot of people are looking at career accomplishments in these players instead of the MVP season dominance which is why Rose seems to be considered the worst to all of you guys.

I think a lot of people won't be saying Rose is the worst MVP in NBA history once they see Rose continue to dominate for a few more seasons.

I do think that Rose is one of the few, if not the only MVP, to not be a top 5 player or the best player at their position to win the MVP.

[Doctor Rivers]

It actually doesn't. The one thing that remains constant is team success. Again, educate yourself please.

OWNED

LOL

[ShaqAttack3234]

You act like for one to be MVP, you exclusively have to be the ignition for the best attribute from a TEAM perspective.

Team defense, and team rebounding.

The point was Iverson and Rose took care of the other things. Like, putting the ball in the hole and taking over in "money on the table" moments of games when they needed a spark by an individual player to win games.

And both Iverson and Rose took over in dramatic fashion when called upon

Actually, yes, to be the most valuable player on a team, you should be the one contributing the most to the area where the team is most successful. Both players were big impact players on one side of the ball, but neither were the best/made the most impact on even that side of the ball in the league, there were others who were better offensively and much better defensively.


Like LeBron James this year, he automatically loses votes considering he played w/ a co top 5 talent in the league.

And it was an ELITE talent both on offense and defense.

No way does Shaq deserve an MVP when he shares the team w/ a 25 / 5 / 5 guy. There is no justification for an MVP when you got a guy on another team averaging 30 ppg on a team full of hustle players and defenders.

Weren't you just preaching context?

How the hell does it make any sense to hold playing with Kobe against Shaq when Kobe was playing selfishly and hurting the team early to the point where his own coach said this.


If Lakers coach Phil Jackson had the right personnel, he would tame the extremely talented, yet offensively eager Bryant.
"If we had a little bit better defensive speed and quickness, I'd probably bench him," said Jackson

The Lakers played much better without him during the regular season because of this, going 11-3. And if you look at the cast Shaq had around him in Kobe's absence, that team had no business going 11-3.

[Samurai Swoosh]

It actually doesn't. The one thing that remains constant is team success. Again, educate yourself please.
Really?

Nash's 2x Phoenix MVPs ... not the best player on the team w/ the best record?

But if that IS the case then ... then Rose is absolutely the MVP, no?

[DMAVS41]

Really?

Nash's 2x Phoenix MVPs ... not the best player on the team w/ the best record?

But if that IS the case then ... then Rose is absolutely the MVP, no?

It doesn't mean best player on best team.

How many times has the MVP been on a team that won less than 45 games? I actually don't know the answer, but I would imagine its very few.

The Lakers won 42 games in 07. I'm sorry, that just isn't good enough. Its not best player in the game. Yes, the award is subjective, by there is also an unwritten criteria that is clearly used.

Again, this is what Dirk did in 07:

25/9/3 on 50/42/90 61% TS......

Led his team to 67 wins. One of the best records in NBA history....and one of the worst rosters to ever win over 63 games in NBA history as well.

You really think that Kobe deserved it more?

[Pointguard]

Rose did this in the age of superteams. He pulled off the best record with a team that was projected to be 7 thru 9. The talent in Miami, OKC, Boston and LA was exceptionally well rounded or on the level of super. Atlanta, and Dallas were very experienced teams that were well coached. Orlando getting used to going deep into the playoffs, SA had it's second best record in the Popovich years! But a young upstart team with a new coach, new philosophy, hit hard with injuries, the second best and third best players, Noah and Boozer, having an off year on top of their injuries, not one dependapble shooter, no explosive scorers outside of Rose, AND you Bozo's want to act like what he did wasn't better than the rest!

So yall are going to hit me up with the year all of this happened before right, cause this ISH happens all the time, right? Why didn't Jordan or Kareem do it when their teams weren't all that? Rose's team was not as talented as the teams above. His team was not as experienced as the teams above. His team was not as healthy as the teams above. All of those teams have a better rebounder than Chicago. They all have better shot blockers. Where do you guys think Chicago's advantage was??? On what level of sense does it make that they should have the best record??? How many games did they win when they were behind in the fourth quarter??? Common sense will tell you that their defense didn't outscore the other team.

What? yall see things but can't tell what happened. If the stats don't tell the whole story then the story can't be great? But Wilt is somehow not the greatest player. Yall contradict yourselves so much I don't know you all put your shoes on the right foot?

[Pointguard]

Actually, yes, to be the most valuable player on a team, you should be the one contributing the most to the area where the team is most successful. Both players were big impact players on one side of the ball, but neither were the best/made the most impact on even that side of the ball in the league, there were others who were better offensively and much better defensively.


So Bill Russell wasn't the MVP of those Celtic teams? Russell was usually the fourth or fifth best scorer on his teams? Heck Russell was defensive and the rest of the league wasn't for a good eight or nine of his years. As far as Rose is concerned name me another MVP candidate that held the elite down at his position like Rose did?

[Pointguard]

No idea, but I seriously doubt that team plays nearly as well with Rose as tey did Nash. And are you implying that Rose is an elite defender now? :oldlol:

You were implying that he wasn't a good defender. I am telling you that he held down the elite pointguards as good as any pointguard. What more is he supposed to do? And then he held down the premier shooting guard in the league in ways unseen before. So, do you really think you are right?

Your boy DH got humiliated by Bynum on national TV in a crucial game. Then he didn't even guard a rookie in Sacramento when Demarcus started going off. D Rose always plays the pointguard and he just might play the best shooting guard.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So Bill Russell wasn't the MVP of those Celtic teams? Russell was usually the fourth or fifth best scorer on his teams? Heck Russell was defensive and the rest of the league wasn't for a good eight or nine of his years.

Actually, John Havlicek called Russell their most valuable offensive player.

And Russell's Celtics were known more for their defense than offense.


As far as Rose is concerned name me another MVP candidate that held the elite down at his position like Rose did?

Rose is no more than average defender and do you not understand the concept of team defense?


You were implying that he wasn't a good defender. I am telling you that he held down the elite pointguards as good as any pointguard. What more is he supposed to do? And then he held down the premier shooting guard in the league in ways unseen before. So, do you really think you are right?

Your boy DH got humiliated by Bynum on national TV in a crucial game. Then he didn't even guard a rookie in Sacramento when Demarcus started going off. D Rose always plays the pointguard and he just might play the best shooting guard.

Are you now implying that Rose is a better defender than Howard? :roll:

I knew you were stupid, but the "points" you're trying to make take it to a new level.

And no, Howard, wasn't humilated by Bynum in that game. I watched the one you're referring to. It was a night game at Staples on ESPN.

The 2 players were in completely different roles, and Bynum got outscored 22-10 and he shot just 3/10. Him outrebounding him 18-15 is not Howard getting humiliated.

[ThaRegul8r]

Wes Unseld 1969? 1st time blatant hype case for MVP. the guy could rebound and was amazing in team basketball (picks, outlet passes, etc.) but that's about it, in his rookie year his offense was blehhhh *vomit* (as if it improved later on...)

not saying this is the worst mvp for sure, just throwing out one of the first names that come to mind.

Interesting that people are so quickly naming Unseld, yet couldn't tell you one thing about his '68-69 season.

[DMAVS41]

Rose did this in the age of superteams. He pulled off the best record with a team that was projected to be 7 thru 9. The talent in Miami, OKC, Boston and LA was exceptionally well rounded or on the level of super. Atlanta, and Dallas were very experienced teams that were well coached. Orlando getting used to going deep into the playoffs, SA had it's second best record in the Popovich years! But a young upstart team with a new coach, new philosophy, hit hard with injuries, the second best and third best players, Noah and Boozer, having an off year on top of their injuries, not one dependapble shooter, no explosive scorers outside of Rose, AND you Bozo's want to act like what he did wasn't better than the rest!

So yall are going to hit me up with the year all of this happened before right, cause this ISH happens all the time, right? Why didn't Jordan or Kareem do it when their teams weren't all that? Rose's team was not as talented as the teams above. His team was not as experienced as the teams above. His team was not as healthy as the teams above. All of those teams have a better rebounder than Chicago. They all have better shot blockers. Where do you guys think Chicago's advantage was??? On what level of sense does it make that they should have the best record??? How many games did they win when they were behind in the fourth quarter??? Common sense will tell you that their defense didn't outscore the other team.

What? yall see things but can't tell what happened. If the stats don't tell the whole story then the story can't be great? But Wilt is somehow not the greatest player. Yall contradict yourselves so much I don't know you all put your shoes on the right foot?

I have no problem with Rose being MVP of the league. In fact, I think he deserved it clearly.

I simply don't think he is an elite player yet. That does not mean he's a poor MVP. I honestly don't know enough about the NBA pre 1975 to even answer that question.

What I think Shaqattack is getting at (and I completely agree with him) is that Rose is still a pretty flawed player. He is an average defender at best. He made no impact on defense or rebounding when he was on the floor this year for the Bulls. That is just a fact. The Bulls actually got better defensively with Rose off the floor.

So simply acting like he was the sole driving force behind the Bulls success is a little off. That teams greatest assets were defense and rebounding. They were actually average offensively. Again, Rose does not impact defense.

That is my point...and I think that is what some others are getting at. That doesn't change the fact that Rose is on his way to becoming an all time great player and he absolutely deserved MVP this year.

Lets just tap the brakes before we put him in the class of a Kobe or Wade.

[Pointguard]

Actually, John Havlicek called Russell their most valuable offensive player.

And Russell's Celtics were known more for their defense than offense.

Celtics first in offense fifth is defense in '57, 2nd in offense and 3rd in defense in '58, 1st in offense and 6th in defense in '59, 1st in offense and 6th ins defense again in '60. After that they were a defensive team.

You really believe Havlicek?



Rose is no more than average defender and do you not understand the concept of team defense?

So now, all of a sudden you seen the Chicago games? And no, it wasn't team defense that held down those players. You know they weren't doubling Wade. When playing big time players he is above average and is definitely the third best starting defender. Name me the point guard that holds down Wade they way Rose did. Simple question. Come on, you saw something else happening.



Are you now implying that Rose is a better defender than Howard? :roll:

I am definitely saying that Rose couldn't hide or shrink when the pressure games were on. He guarded all the other point guards. Orlando was a game and a half behind the Bulls after the All Star break. Howard played below par in nearly every major game and got himself kick out of others. They managed to fall back a full 10 games by the end of the season.


I knew you were stupid, but the "points" you're trying to make take it to a new level.

:roll: I've gone got dumbo a little upset. Up your game, punk. Point's I'm trying to make? Name me the point guard that held the elite pointguards like Rose did? Name me the point guard that held Wade like Rose did? That's clear as day to me. Is there something hard there to be understood? You haven't come close to addressing it and you trying to run behind the smoke screen that it was team defense. Rose usually guards them mano a mano.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Celtics first in offense fifth is defense in '57, 2nd in offense and 3rd in defense in '58, 1st in offense and 6th in defense in '59, 1st in offense and 6th ins defense again in '60. After that they were a defensive team.

Are you just looking at ppg and opponents ppg? :oldlol:

Boston took far more shots than anyone in the league in 1957, 1958, 1959 and 1960 so you can't go by that due to their pace, plus Cousy was league MVP in '57 and Russell missed 24 games.

And Russell was only league MVP one of those seasons.


You really believe Havlicek?

It may depend on the year. But lets put it this way, I doubt you can find one person who claims Rose was Chicago's best or most important defender.


So now, all of a sudden you seen the Chicago games? And no, it wasn't team defense that held down those players. You know they weren't doubling Wade. When playing big time players he is above average and is definitely the third best starting defender. Name me the point guard that holds down Wade they way Rose did. Simple question. Come on, you saw something else happening.

:oldlol: at you continuing to act like Rose is a lockdown 1 on 1 defender.


I am definitely saying that Rose couldn't hide or shrink when the pressure games were on. He guarded all the other point guards. Orlando was a game and a half behind the Bulls after the All Star break. Howard played below par in nearly every major game and got himself kick out of others. They managed to fall back a full 10 games by the end of the season.

Pure bullshit, and you refusing to deny that you're claiming Rose is a better defender than Dwight tells me all I need to know.


:roll: I've gone got dumbo a little upset. Up your game, punk. Point's I'm trying to make? Name me the point guard that held the elite pointguards like Rose did? Name me the point guard that held Wade like Rose did? That's clear as day to me. Is there something hard there to be understood? You haven't come close to addressing it and you trying to run behind the smoke screen that it was team defense. Rose usually guards them mano a mano.

What a moron. :oldlol: Yeah, sure man, basketball is all 1 on 1. Hahah

Rose for defensive player of the year! :bowdown:

[Pointguard]

I have no problem with Rose being MVP of the league. In fact, I think he deserved it clearly.

I simply don't think he is an elite player yet. That does not mean he's a poor MVP. I honestly don't know enough about the NBA pre 1975 to even answer that question.

What I think Shaqattack is getting at (and I completely agree with him) is that Rose is still a pretty flawed player. He is an average defender at best. He made no impact on defense or rebounding when he was on the floor this year for the Bulls. That is just a fact. The Bulls actually got better defensively with Rose off the floor.

I have no problem with him being a flawed player (Jordan was one too). He is not an average defender because you seen Wade demolish teams in the finals and playofffs by himself. No other player ever played Wade like that. What he did nobody else done. You had brainlock on before that series and simply went blind when this happened. Both Deron Williams (6 for 25 fg, 0 for 6 3pointers 8 ppg in two meetings blocked hard a couple of times) and Chris Paul 30% and 15pt) were right there in being the elite. Rose held them down. When Rose gets rest the defensive second unit comes on and isn't guarding the other teams starters. So yeah its a fact but its not a strong point you are making. Its a counter point with no measure of value.


So simply acting like he was the sole driving force behind the Bulls success is a little off. That teams greatest assets were defense and rebounding. They were actually average offensively. Again, Rose does not impact defense. Could you imagine if Dirk held down every elite powerforward down in a year and then held down prime Hakeem in the fourth quarters of WCF's and people not giving him credit? Absolutely amazing. You don't realize how you are coming off.

If Tyson Chandler leaves I guarantee you Dallas doesn't win a playoff series next year. Dallas won in the playoffs with their defense you know. Dirk can catapult to top 30 GOAT on a defensive team but Rose shouldn't get any credit despite having to be a bigger presence in leadership and control of the team (Rose plays with a young troop that had to deal with a ton of changes.)


That is my point...and I think that is what some others are getting at. That doesn't change the fact that Rose is on his way to becoming an all time great player and he absolutely deserved MVP this year.

Lets just tap the brakes before we put him in the class of a Kobe or Wade.
I agree. I think you need a few years at the level he's at to be firmly there. But you have to be the same way with Durant. I think if Derrick Rose had another player of quality that could step up like the other players all listed ahead of him... he would be in better shape than all of them, except, maybe Dirk this year. Rose did more with less and had way more to burden.

[DMAVS41]

I have no problem with him being a flawed player (Jordan was one too). He is not an average defender because you seen Wade demolish teams in the finals and playofffs by himself. No other player ever played Wade like that. What he did nobody else done. You had brainlock on before that series and simply went blind when this happened. Both Deron Williams (6 for 25 fg, 0 for 6 3pointers 8 ppg in two meetings blocked hard a couple of times) and Chris Paul 30% and 15pt) were right there in being the elite. Rose held them down. When Rose gets rest the defensive second unit comes on and isn't guarding the other teams starters. So yeah its a fact but its not a strong point you are making. Its a counter point with no measure of value.
Could you imagine if Dirk held down every elite powerforward down in a year and then held down prime Hakeem in the fourth quarters of WCF's and people not giving him credit? Absolutely amazing. You don't realize how you are coming off.

If Tyson Chandler leaves I guarantee you Dallas doesn't win a playoff series next year. Dallas won in the playoffs with their defense you know. Dirk can catapult to top 30 GOAT on a defensive team but Rose shouldn't get any credit despite having to be a bigger presence in leadership and control of the team (Rose plays with a young troop that had to deal with a ton of changes.)

I agree. I think you need a few years at the level he's at to be firmly there. But you have to be the same way with Durant. I think if Derrick Rose had another player of quality that could step up like the other players all listed ahead of him... he would be in better shape than all of them, except, maybe Dirk this year. Rose did more with less and had way more to burden.

You can't just pick out a few games here and there and expect anyone to believe Rose is a great defender. He is not. He is an average defender at his position. Does he play great defense at times? Sure. Did he do a very good job on Wade? Absolutely.

That is like me saying Dirk shut down Gasol and Aldridge when he guarded them in the playoffs (which he did by the way)....does that make Dirk an awesome defender? Nope. He's not. He's actually very similar to Rose on defense. Average.

I don't know what you want people to say about Rose. I'm saying he deserved MVP....I'm saying he was the best player on a 62 win team. I'm saying he has unlimited potential and he is on his way to being an all time great in my opinion.

That doesn't change the simple fact that he is not a complete player yet. He doesn't know how to manage a game very well and he really struggles running the offense. He settles for an absurd amount of threes and he has plenty of room to improve his defense.

Furthermore, he absolutely crumbled in many playoff games this year....especially against the Heat. I don't know how you can watch the ECF and then come on here and claim Rose is the sole driving force on that team. Rose was absolutely terrible in that series yet the Bulls had a decent chance to win every single game in the 4th qtr.

You can't expect people to ignore that Rose had the luxury of being flanked by the best defensive and rebounding team in the league. Again, its just a simple fact. It doesn't mean Rose isn't a great player. It just means that Rose has little to do with the greatest aspects of the Bulls team. I think that matters.


I don't get your point about Chandler. What does that have to do with Dirk? Dirk catapulted up all time lists because he had an amazing playoff run and one of the most clutch playoff runs of all time en route to winning the title as a huge underdog. Now a center in Chandler that can't even average 10 points or 10 rebounds is some absurd advantage. What? The Mavs were a solid defensive team, but its not the main strength of the team. Sorry.

Who is giving Rose no credit? What do you want me to say? That he is the best player in the league or something. Credit? The dude won MVP and most people consider the best or 2nd best point guard in the league.

Oh, and Dirk is top 20 GOAT by pretty much any standard.

[Pointguard]

Are you just looking at ppg and opponents ppg? :oldlol:

Boston took far more shots than anyone in the league in 1957, 1958, 1959 and 1960 so you can't go by that due to their pace, plus Cousy was league MVP in '57 and Russell missed 24 games.

And Russell was only league MVP one of those seasons.
The point is he was the MVP of the team. I never said league. They played a high scoring game. They obviously played to outscore the opponent. Their pace and their strategy was this. You are outwitting yourself.



It may depend on the year. But lets put it this way, I doubt you can find one person who claims Rose was Chicago's best or most important defender.

He's unquestionably their best player.



:oldlol: at you continuing to act like Rose is a lockdown 1 on 1 defender.

LOL, my questions are direct and to the point - no smoke screens or anything. Name me the pointguard that has done what Rose did this year on defense?



Pure bullshit, and you refusing to deny that you're claiming Rose is a better defender than Dwight tells me all I need to know.

No, I'm saying he played a much more important role overall after the allstar break. That the Bulls got a critical extra nine games on Orlando because of better Rose MVP play. Once again said plain and simple.



What a moron. :oldlol: Yeah, sure man, basketball is all 1 on 1. Hahah
Rose for defensive player of the year! :bowdown:
I never claimed defensive player of the year but he was clearly a key part of their defense and leadership. This desperation atttempt to credit ideas and concepts rather than players winning games is because you don't want to face the truth. The team went thru a lot. You need a leader to play hard defense and inspired ball. You can imagine any number of ideas you want but players win the game. Thibes credit Rose with getting the team to buy into the defense... . you guys can't even see it when it's right in front of your face.

You got one more time.

[Pointguard]

You can't just pick out a few games here and there and expect anyone to believe Rose is a great defender. He is not. He is an average defender at his position. Does he play great defense at times? Sure. Did he do a very good job on Wade? Absolutely.

That is like me saying Dirk shut down Gasol and Aldridge when he guarded them in the playoffs (which he did by the way)....does that make Dirk an awesome defender? Nope. He's not. He's actually very similar to Rose on defense. Average.
One, Wade is not Gasol or Aldrige by any stretch of imagination.
Two, Gasol stopped himself and Dirk had nothing to do with it.
Three, Those guys never dominated a finals or playoff series. Wade was thought to be unstoppable.

Please no more crackhead comparisons.


I don't know what you want people to say about Rose. I'm saying he deserved MVP....I'm saying he was the best player on a 62 win team. I'm saying he has unlimited potential and he is on his way to being an all time great in my opinion.

That doesn't change the simple fact that he is not a complete player yet. He doesn't know how to manage a game very well and he really struggles running the offense. He settles for an absurd amount of threes and he has plenty of room to improve his defense.

Furthermore, he absolutely crumbled in many playoff games this year....especially against the Heat. I don't know how you can watch the ECF and then come on here and claim Rose is the sole driving force on that team. Rose was absolutely terrible in that series yet the Bulls had a decent chance to win every single game in the 4th qtr.

Curious as to who you thought was ready to step up? You can't win with one guy doing it all. Never happens. You can get close but not the win.


You can't expect people to ignore that Rose had the luxury of being flanked by the best defensive and rebounding team in the league. Again, its just a simple fact. It doesn't mean Rose isn't a great player. It just means that Rose has little to do with the greatest aspects of the Bulls team. I think that matters. YOu just made a tremendous leap in logic. Connect the dots as to how you Rose doesn't have anything to do with defense and rebounding. You must be inspired to do those things. Who do you think is the inspiration? You really think somebody else is winning the games?They are Milwaukee without Rose. They can not close out games. They really can't dribble or make pressure shots. They have very little creativity and resourcefulness. Without a leader they won't play inspired for any length of time. Believe me you can't win AAU ball without these qualities, much less pro ball.


I don't get your point about Chandler. What does that have to do with Dirk? Dirk catapulted up all time lists because he had an amazing playoff run and one of the most clutch playoff runs of all time en route to winning the title as a huge underdog. Now a center in Chandler that can't even average 10 points or 10 rebounds is some absurd advantage. What? The Mavs were a solid defensive team, but its not the main strength of the team. Sorry.
They held down Durant, Westbrook, Kobe, Gasol and Lebron in crazy fashion - well they all had issues but the fact stands - if they play like they really could - no way does Dallas win. Defense was more key than 30 ppg much less what Dirk averaged.




Who is giving Rose no credit? What do you want me to say? That he is the best player in the league or something. Credit? The dude won MVP and most people consider the best or 2nd best point guard in the league. You keep saying this crap about his defense. SHould he hold the elite guards scoreless next year and Wade scoreless for the last two quarters of the ECFs? Unfair.


Oh, and Dirk is top 20 GOAT by pretty much any standard.
Pretty much impossible because Lebron and Wade have been better than him for most of their careers already. The top 12 (West and Oscar) are pretty much in stone. Wade, Lebron we now are at 14. David Robinson, Elgin Baylor, Pippen, Malone, KG, Isiah, Mikan, Pettite, Cousy and Moses are the next tier. Maybe you can sneak him past a couple in that number but it still isn't 20. He would be 22 tops. His great year in a year of incredible fluke play and yall claiming Rose being a fluke MVP shouldn't make him much different than Rick Barry. I know he's better, I have him right at 30 ish.

[knicksman]

Rose is being unfairly treated in this thread. I feel like a lot of people are looking at career accomplishments in these players instead of the MVP season dominance which is why Rose seems to be considered the worst to all of you guys.

I think a lot of people won't be saying Rose is the worst MVP in NBA history once they see Rose continue to dominate for a few more seasons.

I do think that Rose is one of the few, if not the only MVP, to not be a top 5 player or the best player at their position to win the MVP.

just like iverson brother?just like any score first pgs who hasnt won since the creation of the league

[one2]

I know this thread is regular MVP but I would give my vote to Tony Parker for worst Finals MVP. He was stat padding against a weak 2007 Cavs who was lucky to even get to the Finals.

[Lebron23]

LeBron should have won the MVP Award in 2006.

31/7/6

Cavaliers won 50 games for the first time since the 1993 NBA Season.

[v1ncelis]

Kobe Bryant over Chris Paul in 08 and Steve Nash over Kobe Bryant in 06.

[moe94]

Rose wasn't even in the top 5 players in the league and won.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The point is he was the MVP of the team. I never said league. They played a high scoring game. They obviously played to outscore the opponent. Their pace and their strategy was this. You are outwitting yourself.

It doesn't mean that scoring was what they did best and being the MVP of a team is different than being the MVP of the league.


He's unquestionably their best player.

Yeah, so?


LOL, my questions are direct and to the point - no smoke screens or anything. Name me the pointguard that has done what Rose did this year on defense?

Off the top of my head, I'd take Kirk Hinrich, Jrue Holiday, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry Rajon Rondo and Mario Chalmers over Rose defensively.


No, I'm saying he played a much more important role overall after the allstar break. That the Bulls got a critical extra nine games on Orlando because of better Rose MVP play. Once again said plain and simple.

No way is Rose better than Howard. Howard is easily the better player, yes, easily. He was Orlando's offense and defense.

Look at Orlando's starting lineup and tell me any big reason other than Howard that they're a top 3 defensive team and have been elite for years.

And offensively? Dwight technically one 15+ ppg scorer on his team, and that was a washed up Vince Carter who averaged 15.1 in 22 games with Orlando. Next best was Jason Richardson who Carter was traded for at 13.9 in 55 games with Orlando.

Yet Dwight was averaging 23/14 with 2.4 bpg and 1.4 spg on 59% shooting while covering for his teammates poor defense.

Deng, Boozer and Noah are all better than any of Dwight's teammates.


I never claimed defensive player of the year but he was clearly a key part of their defense and leadership. This desperation atttempt to credit ideas and concepts rather than players winning games is because you don't want to face the truth. The team went thru a lot. You need a leader to play hard defense and inspired ball. You can imagine any number of ideas you want but players win the game. Thibes credit Rose with getting the team to buy into the defense... . you guys can't even see it when it's right in front of your face.

Chicago's defense starts with their coach who was considered a great defensive mind when he was an assistant.

You're correct that Rose was a big part of their leadership, but defense? No, like I said, he's no more than average defensively. And again, it wasn't Rose and his 4 rpg that made Chicago a dominant rebounding team.

[JSmooth]

rose can lick my ass

[jlauber]

I don't think you can really find a "worst" MVP in NBA history. However, there have been seasons where you can argue that there were more deserving or dominating players.

Was Rose the BEST player in the league this year? Well, was Nash a BETTER player than Kobe in the year's he won the award? Was Iverson a BETTER player than Shaq in 2001? I seriously doubt ANY GM would have "drafted" Iverson over Shaq following the 2001 season. In fact, I suspect that had a GM had the opportunity to get Shaq or Iverson, and they took AI, that they would have been run out of town.

My god...if you want some good examples of that, just look at some baseball and football MVPs. Maury Wills beating out Willie Mays in '62. Paul Hornung winning the award in 1961 over any number of considerably BETTER players (or the fact that Hornung is even in the HOF.) Yogi Berra won THREE MVPs, and there is no way he was even among the top-10 best players in the league in any of them. Same with Zoilio Versalles in 1965. He wasn't even the best player on his own team (and once again...Wills in '62...Tommy Davis had a monster season that year.)

Still, there is no real criteria that is used to determine the MVP. Generally, it goes to a player who plays on one of the best TEAMs in the league. And, sometimes, as in Unseld's case, it is awarded to a player that dramatically improves a team.

Having said that though, no player was ever more slighted than Chamberlain. There are SEVERAL examples, but perhaps the most DISGRACEFUL case was in the 61-62 season. First of all, take a look at his and Russell's 59-69 seasons. Russell led a Celtic team, that had gone 52-20 in 58-59, to a 59-16 record. In the process, he averaged 18.2 ppg, 24.0 rpg, and shot a career high .467. Meanwhile, Wilt came to a team that had been in last place the year before, at 32-40, and immediately led them to a 49-26 record. And in the process, he averaged 37.6 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and shot .461 (the only time in his career in which he failed to shoot at least .506.) Who won the MVP? Chamberlain did (as well as the ROY.)

Two years later, in 61-62, Russell averaged 18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, and shot .457, while leading Boston, and their SEVEN HOFers to a 60-20 record. Chamberlain took that same basic crap roster to a 49-31 record, and in the process he averaged a mind-numbing 50.4 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and shot .506. Obviously Wilt won the MVP, right? Nope, despite being voted first-team center, he did not beat out Russell for the MVP. Now, you tell me what changed from the '60 season to the '62 season? The ONLY thing that changed was that Wilt was even MORE dominant. Everything else was virtually the same.

Another Wilt example... the 62-63 season. True, his TEAM went 31-49 (although that was very deceptive... they only had a -2.1 ppg differential, they were only involved in eight 20+ margin games, and they lost 35 games by single digits.) BUT, all Chamberlain did that season was LEAD the league in FIFTEEN of the 22 statistical categories. And he ran away with some of those (e.g...he won the scoring crown with a 44.8 ppg average...and Baylor was next at 34.0 ppg.) He even led the league in WIN-SHARES (and he was responsible for 67% of his team's wins.) Furthermore, his 31.8 PER is the all-time record. Ok, how did he finish? SEVENTH. And H2H, he MURDERED MVP Russell, outscoring him over the course of their nine H2H games, 38-14, and outrebounding him as well (and probably killed him in FG%...he shot .528 over the course of the season, while Russell shot .432. Now, before someone jumps in and claims that his TEAM's W-L record should have prevented him from winning the award...then explain to me how Kareem, who played in a FAR less dominant fashion in '76, won the award on a 40-42 team?

Ok, so since Wilt didn't win the award on that 31-49 team in '62-63 because of their W-L record, then why didn't he win the award the very next season, when he led that same cast of clowns to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals? All he did that season was lead the league in scoring at 36.9 ppg, averaged 22.3 rpg, and shoot .524 from the floor (and had a defensive win share rating of 10.6.)

Then there was the '71-72 season. Using Chamberlain's 61-62 shocking loss of the award to Russell as a precedent, then just how in the hell did he not win the award in '72? Kareem won the award that season, and he did so with his team DECLINING from their 66-16 mark in 70-71 to 63-19 in '71-72. Yes, he led the league in scoring, at 34.8 ppg, but Chamberlain led the league (and by a large margin) in BOTH rebounding and FG%...AND, he was voted first-team all-defense. And, BTW, he took a team that had gone 48-34 in '70-71 (and then jettisoned Baylor), to a 69-13 mark in 71-72.

And, finally, ...what has already been mentioned... the 68-69 season. Unseld led his Bullets to a 57-25 record, and in the process, he averaged 13.8 ppg, 18.2 rpg, 2.6 apg, and shot .476 from the field. Meanwhile, Chamberlain's Lakers went 55-27 (which was an LA franchise record at the time), and in doing so, he averaged 20.5 ppg, LED the league in rebounding at 21.1 rpg, averaged 4.5 apg, and LED the league in FG% at .583. Ok, Unseld won the award, but where was Wilt in the voting? He wasn't even in the top-NINE!

The FACT was, Wilt had a case for the MVP award the ENTIRE decade of the 60's, and using the criteria that DENIED him the MVP in '62, he SHOULD have won it in '72 (and he even had that same case in '73.)

Of course, Wilt was always held to a FAR greater standard than anyone else whoever played the game. Instead of "only" winning FOUR MVPs (three in a row from '66 thru '68), he probably SHOULD have won TWICE as many.

[Pointguard]

Off the top of my head, I'd take Kirk Hinrich, Jrue Holiday, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry Rajon Rondo and Mario Chalmers over Rose defensively.

I have no problem with this. But I know they didn't hold the elite down like Rose did. And I know they wouldn't be shutting down Wade in the fourth quarter of any playoff series.



No way is Rose better than Howard. Howard is easily the better player, yes, easily. He was Orlando's offense and defense.

Look at Orlando's starting lineup and tell me any big reason other than Howard that they're a top 3 defensive team and have been elite for years.

And offensively? Dwight technically one 15+ ppg scorer on his team, and that was a washed up Vince Carter who averaged 15.1 in 22 games with Orlando. Next best was Jason Richardson who Carter was traded for at 13.9 in 55 games with Orlando.

Yet Dwight was averaging 23/14 with 2.4 bpg and 1.4 spg on 59% shooting while covering for his teammates poor defense.

Deng, Boozer and Noah are all better than any of Dwight's teammates.

Noah and Boozer had years in general and were exceptionally boneheaded to the point of being counter productive in the playoffs. Boozer never learned the plays and his adlibing was horrendous. Yeah Deng was better than DH's help tho.

No way was Rose not more valuable to his teams success than DH. DH's team often played better when he wasn't playing. And Rose's team won a ton more of crucial games than Orlando did. And DH had himself disqualified a couple of times.



Chicago's defense starts with their coach who was considered a great defensive mind when he was an assistant.

You're correct that Rose was a big part of their leadership, but defense? No, like I said, he's no more than average defensively. And again, it wasn't Rose and his 4 rpg that made Chicago a dominant rebounding team.
The team had no dominant rebounders period. Rose made it possible for a lot of offensive rebounds by gettting to the rim as often as he did. Rose is directly related to about 3 additional rebounds a game, so 7 boards a game is great for a pointguard: The team gets scrappy rebounds because of the shifts he creates on the defense.

[DMAVS41]

One, Wade is not Gasol or Aldrige by any stretch of imagination.
Two, Gasol stopped himself and Dirk had nothing to do with it.
Three, Those guys never dominated a finals or playoff series. Wade was thought to be unstoppable.

Please no more crackhead comparisons.


Curious as to who you thought was ready to step up? You can't win with one guy doing it all. Never happens. You can get close but not the win.
YOu just made a tremendous leap in logic. Connect the dots as to how you Rose doesn't have anything to do with defense and rebounding. You must be inspired to do those things. Who do you think is the inspiration? You really think somebody else is winning the games?They are Milwaukee without Rose. They can not close out games. They really can't dribble or make pressure shots. They have very little creativity and resourcefulness. Without a leader they won't play inspired for any length of time. Believe me you can't win AAU ball without these qualities, much less pro ball.

They held down Durant, Westbrook, Kobe, Gasol and Lebron in crazy fashion - well they all had issues but the fact stands - if they play like they really could - no way does Dallas win. Defense was more key than 30 ppg much less what Dirk averaged.

You keep saying this crap about his defense. SHould he hold the elite guards scoreless next year and Wade scoreless for the last two quarters of the ECFs? Unfair.

Pretty much impossible because Lebron and Wade have been better than him for most of their careers already. The top 12 (West and Oscar) are pretty much in stone. Wade, Lebron we now are at 14. David Robinson, Elgin Baylor, Pippen, Malone, KG, Isiah, Mikan, Pettite, Cousy and Moses are the next tier. Maybe you can sneak him past a couple in that number but it still isn't 20. He would be 22 tops. His great year in a year of incredible fluke play and yall claiming Rose being a fluke MVP shouldn't make him much different than Rick Barry. I know he's better, I have him right at 30 ish.

1. Did I ever say Rose was a fluke MVP? No, but you over-rate the shit out of him. What do you mean who else was ready to step up? How about the fact that despite Rose's shit play in the ECF every game was there for the taking. And what did Rose do? He crumbled in crunch time. It was ****ing pathetic. He couldn't even hit the ****ing rim and he had some terrible turnovers as well. Step up? How about Rose stepping up as the best player and leader. Right? Its so much to ask of Rose to shoot over 42%.....The Bulls were undefeated in the playoffs by the way every time Rose shot over 42%. LOL....I guess that is asking too much of your boy. Nobody else needed to step up really. Rose just needed to either play better or not ****ing crumble in the most crucial parts of the game.....and not settling for a combined 17 threes in the last two games against the Heat would have helped as well.

2. So you give Rose credit for the Bulls defense and none to Dirk. What? The stats actually show the Mavs get better with Dirk on the floor on defense. I never compared Wade to Gasol. I said that Dirk also plays average defense and at times plays very good man to man defense. You really need to understand how that defense is not all about 1 vs 1. If it was, Dirk would actually be a pretty damn good defender. That is his strength on defense. But that doesn't change the fact that he is an average defender. Oh, and using your logic.....Chandler got roasted by Aldridge throughout the Blazers series. Dirk did a much better job....so your logic would lead me to say things like "Chandler couldn't stop him, Dirk could....therefore Dirk is an awesome defender.....etc. Faulty logic leading to a poor conclusion.

3. So what do you want? Where do you want people to rank Rose and what do you want people to say? He crumbled in the playoffs overall and was even worse with the games on the line. Its clear to everyone watching that Rose is already a great player with a ton of upside. Its also clear that the main strength of the Bulls is defense and rebounding....an area in which Rose makes little to no impact. You can't have it both ways. You can't lead the parade for Rose as an elite player and the true MVP and then absolve him for playing as poorly as he did.

4. As for Dirk's all time rank. Its all your opinion, but I disagree. There aren't 29 other guys that have been better players with a better resume. I have him in that 15 to 20 range. I would see 20 to 25 if a different criteria is used than the standard one here and in the media that is more about career. Lower than that? Nah, I don't see it. You'd have to get into an area of ranking guys like Stockton over Dirk. I just don't see any logical reasons for that. But anyway, regardless of where he is now.....Dirk will pretty much be locked in that top 20....maybe higher by the time he's done. Its all gravy from here on in.

Robinson? Cousy? Thomas? Pippen? Malone? KG? Barkley? Barry? Stockton? Mikan?

Some of those guys I have no issue with. Some I do. Regardless, you could easily rank Dirk over every single one of them.....

And did you really call this year a fluke for Dirk/Mavs. What? Has there ever been less of a fluke title? It was one of the hardest roads to a title I can remember. They beat the two best and most talented teams and went through so many of the top players. Beat a tough Blazers team in round 1. Beat Kobe/Gasol and Phil in round 2. The defending 2 time champs and a team coming off 3 finals in a row. Joining only the Celtics as the two teams to beat them in the playoffs in a 4 year stretch. Beat the Durant/Westbrook thunder. Then beat the Lebron/Wade Heat. A team that has two players in the top 20 all time according to you.

LOL....fluke? Its one of the most deserved titles I can remember. There is nothing flukey about it.

[Jordan23GOAT]

I think this year went exactly as it should have. Derrick Rose truely was the best player in the regular season. And Dirk (finals MVP obviously) was the best player of the playoffs.

[Pointguard]

I don't think you can really find a "worst" MVP in NBA history. However, there have been seasons where you can argue that there were more deserving or dominating players.

In a season where Dirk had the year of his career and he is supposedly top 20 GOAT by some here. Lebron and Wade are in their prime and are going to be top fifteen. Kobe was in the MVP discussion and he's top 10. Duncan's team had one of it's best records and he's top 7. Durant by all means should be top 15 as he is Dirk on steriods and scoring like he is in his prime. And DH is in his prime and he can crack top 30. If DRose is the worse MVP then the GOAT list sucks. One has to be true for the other to be true. If defense was great this year then that's what it is. Things are very different if there wasn't great players in their prime. There has to be a curve to base this on. Sure Rose looked unpolished at times but he won and was better at it than all others despite bad circumstances.

[JSmooth]

josh smith should have been the mvp this year

[jlauber]

In a season where Dirk had the year of his career and he is supposedly top 20 GOAT by some here. Lebron and Wade are in their prime and are going to be top fifteen. Kobe was in the MVP discussion and he's top 10. Duncan's team had one of it's best records and he's top 7. Durant by all means should be top 15 as he is Dirk on steriods and scoring like he is in his prime. And DH is in his prime and he can crack top 30. If DRose is the worse MVP then the GOAT list sucks. One has to be true for the other to be true. If defense was great this year then that's what it is. Things are very different if there wasn't great players in their prime. There has to be a curve to base this on. Sure Rose looked unpolished at times but he won and was better at it than all others despite bad circumstances.

I certainly didn't have a problem with Rose winning the MVP. Once again, winning the MVP does not necessarily equate to being the BEST player in the game. Does anyone honestly believe that Wills was a better player than Mays in '62? Or that Hornung was a better player than Brown in '61? Or that Iverson was a better player than Shaq in '01? Or that there were SIX players better than Chamberlain in '63, or that there were NINE players better than Wilt in '69?

Rose won it, and by most accounts, he deserved it. Now, if you could hold some kind of "draft" after this season, I seriously doubt that he would be the first player taken. Hell, he might not be in the top-5.

And who knows...he could win MULTIPLE MVPs before his career is over. He might even go on to become the GOAT. But I just don't think too many would consider him the BEST player in the league right now.

[EricForman]

At least you admit Nash took Kobe's MVP. Stupid Korean. :oldlol:


I thought Nash leading his teams to WCF without Amare and Marion separately (06 and 2010), and going to the WCF four times with four different casts (once with Mavs, three times with Suns), should be enough to shut the haters up?

[Doranku]

I thought Nash leading his teams to WCF without Amare and Marion separately (06 and 2010), and going to the WCF four times with four different casts (once with Mavs, three times with Suns), should be enough to shut the haters up?

What does any of that have to do with the 2006 MVP award?

[GiveItToBurrito]

Well, not a tough one. Clearly it is Derrick Rose.

25ppg, 4 rpg, 8 assists

Wade was better his second year in the league with

26 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg


Yeah Bulls got the best record of the regular season but that doesn't change the fact he is the worst MVP of all time. :facepalm

You have to look at those stats in context, 25 4 and 8 for a team that can put up 110 on any given night like Phoenix isn't as impressive as it is when you're team routinely holds opponents to 85 points and the 25 you drop are almost a third of what you need to win.

That said, I'm going with AI in 2001. Totally goes against the argument I just made, but Shaq was just faaaaaar more dominant than him that year. Nash in 2005 has a case, too, since you could argue that Amare was as good or better than him, but I'd still give it to him just for how much he changed the game and how shocking it was for a lottery team (I think) to win almost 60 games out of nowhere. Don't even get me started on 06, too, since he turned around and did the same thing without Amare or Joe Johnson. That would be like if Kevin Durant went out for a year and the Thunder lost Harden to free agency and they still won 50+ games with Westbrook just taking over night in and night out.

[GiveItToBurrito]

I thought Nash leading his teams to WCF without Amare and Marion separately (06 and 2010), and going to the WCF four times with four different casts (once with Mavs, three times with Suns), should be enough to shut the haters up?

:applause: :applause: :applause: Crazy, too, how Nash is (rightfully) considered a legit MVP candidate when he's playing with only one or two other legitimately good other players (Amare/Marion, Amare/JRich) but everyone forgets he exists when he's performing just as well while having to dish out to guys like Hakim Warrick, 40 year old Vince Carter, and someone claiming to be Josh Childress.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The point is he was the MVP of the team.
No, he wasn't ... because apparently, according to ShaqAttack ... in order to be MVP you clearly have to be the best at what your team excels at.

So because Rose wasn't the Bulls best rebounder or defender, he clearly isn't their best player.

I mean get with the logic. It makes total sense.

:facepalm

[swi7ch]

Gotta be DRose.

Only reason LBJ didn't win is because he's won it the past 2 years and the leauge is upset at him.

[Pointguard]

1. Did I ever say Rose was a fluke MVP? No, but you over-rate the shit out of him. What do you mean who else was ready to step up? How about the fact that despite Rose's shit play in the ECF every game was there for the taking. And what did Rose do? He crumbled in crunch time. It was ****ing pathetic. He couldn't even hit the ****ing rim and he had some terrible turnovers as well. Step up? How about Rose stepping up as the best player and leader. Right? Its so much to ask of Rose to shoot over 42%.....The Bulls were undefeated in the playoffs by the way every time Rose shot over 42%. LOL....I guess that is asking too much of your boy. Nobody else needed to step up really. Rose just needed to either play better or not ****ing crumble in the most crucial parts of the game.....and not settling for a combined 17 threes in the last two games against the Heat would have helped as well.
Miami threw the kitchen sink at him. Rose had to guard Wade and they both were exasperated by it. You keep trying to act like this didn't happen. Rose was stopping a guy that is one of the best penetrators EVER. A guy that killed Dallas in the finals in one of the best individual take overs EVER in the sport. The guy is much bigger than DRose and is now in his prime. Thibes is defense minded and stuck with it and was still asking Rose to carry the team offensively while Booze and Noah weren't playing in the fourth quarters. IF Rose stops a guy that whole teams had no answer for, he's had a great run, if on defense alone. But it cost him his energy. And I keep asking you who was stepping up to help Rose.



2. So you give Rose credit for the Bulls defense and none to Dirk. What? The stats actually show the Mavs get better with Dirk on the floor on defense. I never compared Wade to Gasol. I said that Dirk also plays average defense and at times plays very good man to man defense. You really need to understand how that defense is not all about 1 vs 1.
LOL, a guy holds down the elite consistently, almost without exception and now its not about 1 on 1. I've seen Wade beat teams 1 on 3 consistently and I seen Rose on him 1 on 1. YOU are the one saying that ROSE doesn't factor in to the defense that their team plays. Yet in the playoffs he draws the hardest cover, a one man demolition derby and does a job nobody or team did on him in the playoffs. Thibes didn't have the confidence in him because he was average.


3. So what do you want? Where do you want people to rank Rose and what do you want people to say? He crumbled in the playoffs overall and was even worse with the games on the line. Its clear to everyone watching that Rose is already a great player with a ton of upside. Its also clear that the main strength of the Bulls is defense and rebounding....an area in which Rose makes little to no impact. You can't have it both ways. You can't lead the parade for Rose as an elite player and the true MVP and then absolve him for playing as poorly as he did. He got tired because of his great defensive play on a much bigger super gifted offensive player. He didn't play good offensively but you can't win games against the quickest defensive team in the league with only one player offensively. They were young and just didn't do things right, collectively. It happened with Lebron at the same age with a more experienced team.

Players win games. Defense and rebounding are part of the equation but will never be over the player(s). Yall can keep imagining that all you want. Its getting to the point with yall that it isn't just a lack of knowledge about basketball... but how life works in general. There are no great rebounders on the team. Nobody that played stellar defense the whole year either. Collectively they play those concepts well and together as a five piece band. Rose creating rebound opportunities and an average rebounder otherwise and a good defender. Most importantly he is the key guy to them winning. Period.


4. As for Dirk's all time rank. Its all your opinion, but I disagree. There aren't 29 other guys that have been better players with a better resume. I have him in that 15 to 20 range. I would see 20 to 25 if a different criteria is used than the standard one here and in the media that is more about career. Lower than that? Nah, I don't see it. You'd have to get into an area of ranking guys like Stockton over Dirk. I just don't see any logical reasons for that. But anyway, regardless of where he is now.....Dirk will pretty much be locked in that top 20....maybe higher by the time he's done. Its all gravy from here on in.

Robinson? Cousy? Thomas? Pippen? Malone? KG? Barkley? Barry? Stockton? Mikan?

Some of those guys I have no issue with. Some I do. Regardless, you could easily rank Dirk over every single one of them.....

And did you really call this year a fluke for Dirk/Mavs. What? Has there ever been less of a fluke title? It was one of the hardest roads to a title I can remember. They beat the two best and most talented teams and went through so many of the top players. Beat a tough Blazers team in round 1. Beat Kobe/Gasol and Phil in round 2. The defending 2 time champs and a team coming off 3 finals in a row. Joining only the Celtics as the two teams to beat them in the playoffs in a 4 year stretch. Beat the Durant/Westbrook thunder. Then beat the Lebron/Wade Heat. A team that has two players in the top 20 all time according to you.

LOL....fluke? Its one of the most deserved titles I can remember. There is nothing flukey about it.
To me yall want to act like Rose was so bad then the year had to be flukey for him to win it right? I mean his team won more regular season games than the Super talented teams, the experienced teams, the healthy teams, the long term chemistry teams, while his very young team went thru injuries, style adjustments, new coach, new philosophy, key player not knowing the plays, lack of explosive scoring outside of Rose, etc. And Rose somehow still managing to be the worse MVP ever.

I never seen a path to the finals that had two players go volutarily into space (Lebron and Gasol just weren't volunteeringly applying themselves). Kobe uncharistically had little fighting spirit and Durant found himself in a civil war with Westbrook. Wade had an injury. I would have had a much better taste for the championship had not the waters parted for the Mavs. Six super key guys off of their games because of side shows. The Mavs caught all the key guys in a very bad moment. What are the odds of that happening?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Only reason LBJ didn't win is because he's won it the past 2 years and the leauge is upset at him.
And he immedietly, and unfortunately due to his choices automatically splits votes w/ his MVP caliber teammate.

How do people continually not understand this at all?

[z14h]

Dwight Howard should have won.

[Samurai Swoosh]

And he immedietly, and unfortunately due to his choices automatically splits votes w/ his MVP caliber teammate.

How do people continually not understand this at all?
Same reason you can't give Shaq MVP in 2001, and 2002 ...

Not when you share the court w/ a fellow top five player.

[Pointguard]

No, he wasn't ... because apparently, according to ShaqAttack ... in order to be MVP you clearly have to be the best at what your team excels at.

So because Rose wasn't the Bulls best rebounder or defender, he clearly isn't their best player.

I mean get with the logic. It makes total sense.

:facepalm
I know and then Rose isn't part of the collective that rebounds and defends either despite having stomped on the elite and being key to them getting offensive rebounds.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I know and then Rose isn't part of the collective that rebounds and defends either despite having stomped on the elite and being key to them getting offensive rebounds.
Yea, I know.

I watched him lock up Deron Williams, Chris Paul, all year long.

It's a team defense thing in Chicago, there is hardly any individual like LOCK down caliber defenders.

Just hustle dorks and rebounders.

Rose isn't their best player ... don't believe the hype.

To be honest. ShaqAttack just doesn't like small players. That's literally it.

[Pointguard]

I certainly didn't have a problem with Rose winning the MVP. Once again, winning the MVP does not necessarily equate to being the BEST player in the game. Does anyone honestly believe that Wills was a better player than Mays in '62? Or that Hornung was a better player than Brown in '61? Or that Iverson was a better player than Shaq in '01? Or that there were SIX players better than Chamberlain in '63, or that there were NINE players better than Wilt in '69?

The players were voting that year and being that Wilt was coming into town dropping 50 on peoples heads with regularity and leaving with the prettiest chicks, it was surely going to hurt his MVP count. When he stopped raining points on folk's heads like a monsoon he got more votes. You just don't embarass folks at their profession and then play monopoly with the women.

Rose won it, and by most accounts, he deserved it. Now, if you could hold some kind of "draft" after this season, I seriously doubt that he would be the first player taken. Hell, he might not be in the top-5.

And who knows...he could win MULTIPLE MVPs before his career is over. He might even go on to become the GOAT. But I just don't think too many would consider him the BEST player in the league right now.
I don't think he was the best player but I definitely think he was more responsible for wins than the other players were. The worse MVP isn't something I believe at all.

[Pointguard]

Yea, I know.

I watched him lock up Deron Williams, Chris Paul, all year long.

It's a team defense thing in Chicago, there is hardly any individual like LOCK down caliber defenders.
Its mostly the collective playing smartdefense, but you know that Rose isn't part of the collective. And when they do go one on one he miracolously isn't part of that either. And don't let Rose go to the basket and creat chaos so that rebounding becomes easier.


Rose isn't their best player ... don't believe the hype.

To be honest. ShaqAttack just doesn't like small players. That's literally it.

Yeah, well at least he admits it. Dmavs is just a hater.

[nathanjizzle]

let me ask you have you watched more than 5 regular season bulls games? im pretty sure its "no" since you believe d rose is the worst mvp. Hes the MVP for a reason idiot.

[nathanjizzle]

also explain these stats.
D Rose 28.5 points 7 assist against the top 6 teams in the NBA
Lebron James 25.5 7 assist aginst the top 6 teams in the NBA

stupid watch d rose play a few games before you assume he doesnt deserve MVP.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I have no problem with this. But I know they didn't hold the elite down like Rose did. And I know they wouldn't be shutting down Wade in the fourth quarter of any playoff series.

My point is, I just named a bunch of point guards who I believe are better defenders and you didn't take issue with any of those selections. The guy is simply an average defender, imo. And an average defensive point guard isn't the difference between a team being great defensively.


Noah and Boozer had years in general and were exceptionally boneheaded to the point of being counter productive in the playoffs. Boozer never learned the plays and his adlibing was horrendous. Yeah Deng was better than DH's help tho.

Better than what Dwight had. Nelson is among the worst defensive point guards in the league and among the worst at running an offense. He can shoot.

Turkoglu was also extremely inconsistent and a major disappointment.

Jason Richardson shot a lot of 3s and had some good games, but didn't do much else and was also a disappointment.

Even if you include Carter's 22 games, Howard averaged 8 more ppg than any other Orlando player, if you only include players who played there at least half the season then it's 9 ppg over Richardson/. That's while anchoring the defense.


No way was Rose not more valuable to his teams success than DH. DH's team often played better when he wasn't playing. And Rose's team won a ton more of crucial games than Orlando did. And DH had himself disqualified a couple of times.

Howard's team was 1-3 without him.


The team had no dominant rebounders period. Rose made it possible for a lot of offensive rebounds by gettting to the rim as often as he did. Rose is directly related to about 3 additional rebounds a game, so 7 boards a game is great for a pointguard: The team gets scrappy rebounds because of the shifts he creates on the defense.

Part of that is valid(not sure you can put on a number on it, though like 3 per game), but Chicago was still the second best defensive rebounding team in the league.


Same reason you can't give Shaq MVP in 2001, and 2002 ...

Not when you share the court w/ a fellow top five player.

Lebron's situation is completely different than Shaq's. First of all, he didn't play as well this season as Shaq did.

But Shaq also didn't have a 6-time all-star as his 3rd option, he didn't have anywhere near as good 3 point shooting around him, and Lebron didn't have a stretch like Shaq did in 2001 where the team excelled in his second best player's absence.

As far as 2002? Shaq didn't not win the award because he played with Kobe. He didn't win the award for 2 reasons. 1 is that he missed 15 games and the other is that Duncan had a monster season. And I agree that he didn't deserve the 2002 MVP for those reasons. He was getting a lot of MVP talk the first 2 months of the season before his injury, though, so it would have been very plausible for him to have been voted MVP that year, but 15 missed games is just too much.



To be honest. ShaqAttack just doesn't like small players. That's literally it.

:wtf: I'm not sure why you come up with nonsensical theories like this.

It's simple, I don't think that Rose is as good as you do. I've been a fan of many small players. John Starks was one of my favorite players growing up, I liked Kevin Johnson as well, Steve Nash, Chris Paul ect.

[Pointguard]

My point is, I just named a bunch of point guards who I believe are better defenders and you didn't take issue with any of those selections. The guy is simply an average defender, imo. And an average defensive point guard isn't the difference between a team being great defensively.
If Rose was holding down the elite at his position to 30% shooting and Wade to barely scoring in three games, late in the game, what is Rose going to do when he becomes a good or great defender? Maybe holding the elite down to 10%. Holding down Wade was not done before like that by the greatest defenders or whole teams. Who was the player/game that made you think Rose was average? When did that game happen? A couple of games Thibes asked Rose to channel a young player rather than D up on him. And sometimes Rose doesn't D up hard but his player is rarely not contained. The better they are, the more contained they are.

Rose was watched/hated on this board from Feb. 1st on, and believe me, not once was there a post about a guard having a good game on him. Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Nash and Rondo all were handed their heads (shot a collective 1 for 17 from 3 point land over the course of the year). There is nothing average about that.

[Pointguard]

also explain these stats.
D Rose 28.5 points 7 assist against the top 6 teams in the NBA
Lebron James 25.5 7 assist aginst the top 6 teams in the NBA

stupid watch d rose play a few games before you assume he doesnt deserve MVP.

And they didn't loose to a top 8 team since Dec. 3rd. Remember this is a young team, sufferring injuries to key players, playing a new system against mega teams, long term teams, experienced teams, healthy teams, dynasties, mature teams and beat all of them, 12 in a row since Dec. 3rd. A true testiment to Rose's leadership, Chicago was the only team of that eight that did not loose control down the stretch by loosing nearly three or more games in a row. Chicago only lost three games over the last two months.

[wagexslave]

Lakers fans still mad about Nash winning over Kobe. Nash led the Suns to the best record in the league, and by definition he was the "most VALUABLE player" during that time. He MADE that Suns team great. Without him, they would've been mediocre. lol

Same with Kobe, but Kobe didn't lead his team to the best record in the league so that's why he lost.

[PowerGlove]

Lakers fans still mad about Nash winning over Kobe. Nash led the Suns to the best record in the league, and by definition he was the "most VALUABLE player" during that time. He MADE that Suns team great. Without him, they would've been mediocre. lol

Same with Kobe, but Kobe didn't lead his team to the best record in the league so that's why he lost.

That's the most simplistic view of MVP I've ever seen.

[purplch0de]

Lakers fans still mad about Nash winning over Kobe. Nash led the Suns to the best record in the league, and by definition he was the "most VALUABLE player" during that time. He MADE that Suns team great. Without him, they would've been mediocre. lol

Same with Kobe, but Kobe didn't lead his team to the best record in the league so that's why he lost.

Comparing apples and oranges. There is no way Nash's team was anywhere near as bad as the lakers. Nash had prime marion averaging 22 ppg and barbosa coming off the bench scoring double digits like the other 5 starters. Nash averaged 18/10

Lakers that year had Kwame, Smush, odom, Cook and kobe averaged 35/5/5

[wagexslave]

Comparing apples and oranges. There is no way Nash's team was anywhere near as bad as the lakers. Nash had prime marion averaging 22 ppg and barbosa coming off the bench scoring double digits like the other 5 starters. Nash averaged 18/10

Lakers that year had Kwame, Smush, odom, Cook and kobe averaged 35/5/5
That's fine and dandy, but Kobe lead his team to the best record in the league? No. And that's one of the biggest parts taken into consideration when voting for MVP.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

My problem with MVP is that it's too subjective. It is not "the best player in the league" and yet it is considered so when people do all-time lists. It's very overrated in terms of personal achievements. People in 40 years will look back and say "well if Shaq was so dominant, why did he only win one MVP? Duncan was clearly better than Shaq because he won 2 MVPs". Is that right? Is it right that for the next year (at least) Derrick Rose will be the MVP of the league, despite being only the 7th or 8th best player in the league? If you could have any one guy on your team for the next 5 years at last year's form, Rose is not the one you'd pick. So how is he "more valuable"?