Karl Malone vs Charles Barkley vs Kevin Garnett vs Dirk Nowitzki

[Pointguard]

why not just look at what they actually did objectively on the court...and it becomes obvious. no reason to think KG is better than Dirk...especially when it comes to winning in the playoffs...and what else really matters? the fact that KG on paper should shut down Dirk/Mavs in the 02 series...Oh wait...we actually saw that play out.

Was there anyone out there that came away thinking KG was the best player on the court in that series? Of course not...and that was pre prime Dirk as well.

KG is one of those guys that is way better on paper than in reality. While Dirk is the exact opposite. At some point you won't be able to continue to ignore the evidence of what Dirk has done throughout his career.

Throughout his career Dirk didn't guard superstars.

Dirk in H2Hs is a mute point. Unless we count Dirk's helper as part of the equation. Dirk doesn't guard other superstars because they would murder him. Dirk and helper held KG to 34 total points - Same as Dirk if you count assist - and 19 rebounds, two steals, two blocks.

[DMAVS41]

Well his minutes never looked liked KG minutes. That's for sure. I think Dirk would have averaged 10 rebounds per game once if he was playing hard. And he wasn't guarding Duncan, Malone, Barkley or KG like most other power forwards. I can't say Dirk was dogging it all the time, but he definitely wasn't was going all out Malone and KG.


Integrity is integrity. You get paid to do it, you give it.
KG certainly never cared about stats. Malone or Barkley never seemed to push it either. Dirk averaged 37 mpg from 22 to 31 years of age. This isn't some great reduction in minutes. KG and Malone had crazy motors so I would expect their 2 minutes more per game. Barkley I imagine would be like Dirk's 37 minutes per game.

Dirk's team was always built around him, his whole career. When KG had the defensive reigns of his team things like this would happen:

"The Heat shot 38% with KG on the floor, 85% with KG on the bench....yes you read that right, 85%. Later that night I saw that corroborated on TV, when NBA TV reported the same numbers (except the Heat actually shot ONLY 84% when KG was on the bench).

Then, last night, it happened again. I was watching NBA TV in the aftermath of the overtime win, and they reported that the Heat had shot about 35% in Game 4 when KG was in the game, but 75% with him on the bench.

So then, I started doing the math...through the two wins, the Celtics were holding the Heat in the mid-upper 30% range with Garnett in the game...but were allowing the Heat to score at roughly an 80% clip with Garnett on the bench. To put it mildly, that seemed like a big difference."

quoted from SB Nation.com via Jkidd Kid http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

Once again the team was built around him. So he the center piece of a solid owner that wants to win. But he doesn't get extra points for that, the GM and owners made it that way - not really Dirk. Utah and Philly suffered when their stars went to the bench. KG was usually the scorer and facilitator on his team. As well as the defensive cog.

This entire argument fails. The two things a well built team around Dirk need are;

1. A quality pg that can pass
2. A quality defensive minded center that can rebound

Dirk had went large stretches not having either for his entire career. Your argument is terrible. Nellie and Cuban could literally not have a done a worse job building around Dirk after Nash left.

[DMAVS41]

Throughout his career Dirk didn't guard superstars.

Dirk in H2Hs is a mute point. Unless we count Dirk's helper as part of the equation. Dirk doesn't guard other superstars because they would murder him. Dirk and helper held KG to 34 total points - Same as Dirk if you count assist - and 19 rebounds, two steals, two blocks.

Nobody is claiming Dirk in par with KG as a defender.

I'm just wondering why this player that is so great (KG) could do nothing to stop Dirk in the playoffs that year. Why he couldn't do anything to slow down the Mavs.

Why he couldn't destroy a team on offense that literally had poor defenders at almost every position as Dirk in 02 was a poor defender in reality.

Seriously...our bigs were Dirk, Lafrentz, and Najera. And KG couldn't score over 30 a game? Couldn't take over? ROFL...

[tpols]

And a big part of that is Dirk...and you know it.

I doubt you are old enough to remember, but all the talk going into that series was how KG was going to shut down the Mavs and Dirk. And I'm simply asking how a player so much better than Dirk...didn't do anything to impact the outcome of the series. Especially when they play the same position.

Why didn't KG score 50? Why didn't he shut down one player at least. I mean...the Mavs were way worse defensively.

A big part of Steve Nash was.. Dirk? He ended up being better, without Dirk at all. Michael Finley was a great individual player and scorer.. hardly built off Dirk at all. These were great pieces period. Dirk averaged .7 assists in that series christs sake. He was getting spoonfed like a baby while KG damn near led his team in assists from the PF spot trying to create for his inept teammates.

Billups and Wally definitely relied on KG as individuals in that system waay more than Nash and Finley relied on Dirk.. what a joke.:oldlol:

[Pointguard]

And a big part of that is Dirk...and you know it.

I doubt you are old enough to remember, but all the talk going into that series was how KG was going to shut down the Mavs and Dirk. And I'm simply asking how a player so much better than Dirk...didn't do anything to impact the outcome of the series. Especially when they play the same position.

Dirk plays part time PF. On offense he was really a small forward and on defense where ever the worst offensive player is. Totally coaches call to use KG very differently than he did all year. KG doesn't overrule his coach. Coach was weird.


Why didn't KG score 50? Why didn't he shut down one player at least. I mean...the Mavs were way worse defensively.

See...the thing you ignore is that the Wolves also had a great offense. They had the 4th best offense in the league. LOL
Wow with their defensive cog leading a team of journey men in nearly every category had the 4th best offense in the league with injuries and only KG as a consistent scorer??? Steals, blocks, rebounds, points, and .03 away from leading them in assist. KG got a lot of his players but they had no experience. Minny was greatly outcoached. But this is neither here or there because it wasn't a situation where either guarded the other.

[Pointguard]

This entire argument fails. The two things a well built team around Dirk need are;

1. A quality pg that can pass
2. A quality defensive minded center that can rebound

Dirk had went large stretches not having either for his entire career. Your argument is terrible. Nellie and Cuban could literally not have a done a worse job building around Dirk after Nash left.

This is all according to you. And no offense... but you're a nut.

[DMAVS41]

A big part of Steve Nash was.. Dirk? He ended up being better, without Dirk at all. Michael Finley was a great individual player and scorer.. hardly built off Dirk at all. These were great pieces period. Dirk averaged .7 assists in that series christs sake. He was getting spoonfed like a baby while KG damn near led his team in assists from the PF spot trying to create for his inept teammates.

Billups and Wally definitely relied on KG as individuals in that system waay more than Nash and Finley relied on Dirk.. what a joke.:oldlol:

Yes. Dirk being on the court was huge for the Mavs. It allowed all those players to do what they did best.

Again...where was KG? Why didn't he do anything to stop the Mavs.

This is your position. That KG is the greater player. Well...he had the 4th best offense...and he himself is the unmatchable defensive force. And he was playing the softest team in the league probably...with a terrible defense.

So I'm just curious how it happened.

[DMAVS41]

This is all according to you. And no offense... but you're a nut.

Actually it's not. Virtually every poster here insists that Dirk needs a good center next to him. And I totally agree that is ideal. There is a literal consensus in the basketball community on this.

The pg stuff is just obvious. Dirk is a big that doesn't get the ball unless he's passed it. His best attributes are posting up and pick and roll...without a quality guard to run pick and roll...he's left in the cold.

So no offense, but you're a ****ing moron if you think those teams were perfectly built around Dirk.

[Pointguard]

Yes. Dirk being on the court was huge for the Mavs. It allowed all those players to do what they did best.

Again...where was KG? Why didn't he do anything to stop the Mavs.

This is your position. That KG is the greater player. Well...he had the 4th best offense...and he himself is the unmatchable defensive force. And he was playing the softest team in the league probably...with a terrible defense.

So I'm just curious how it happened.

It doesn't need an explanation it was totally on this guy.
http://apps.startribune.com/blogs/user_images/ajrayno_1364589457_ajrayno_1364582960_Flip.jpg

Stop your redundant arguments. Its obvious as day it wasn't a manu a manu reality.

[DMAVS41]

It doesn't need an explanation it was totally on this guy.
http://apps.startribune.com/blogs/user_images/ajrayno_1364589457_ajrayno_1364582960_Flip.jpg

Stop your redundant arguments. Its obvious as day it wasn't a manu a manu reality.

It doesn't have to be that. I'm showing you why KG isn't as good as you think he was.

Or maybe it's that you don't understand how good Dirk was. It's one or the other.

You see. Forget defense. Why was KG not able to trounce Dirk, Lafrentz, and Najera? Seriously...those guys were horrid defenders. Dirk really didn't play any defense back then and Lafrentz and Najera were truly horrendous as bigs.

And stop acting like KG had no help. Both Billups and Wally were very good back then. They won 50 games and had the 4th best offense in the league...

[Pointguard]

It doesn't have to be that. I'm showing you why KG isn't as good as you think he was.

Or maybe it's that you don't understand how good Dirk was. It's one or the other.

Riiiiight so KG is suppose to stop Dirk when he isn't guarding him. Neither player affected the other.




You see. Forget defense. Why was KG not able to trounce Dirk, Lafrentz, and Najera? Seriously...those guys were horrid defenders. Dirk really didn't play any defense back then and Lafrentz and Najera were truly horrendous as bigs.

And stop acting like KG had no help. Both Billups and Wally were very good back then. They won 50 games and had the 4th best offense in the league...

Billups would have been out of the league if he didn't play well in Minny. He was inexperienced, not consistent and new to the role as a starter. He was a backup and got the starting job due to injury - so stop with this craziness.

KG was used totally different in that series than the way they played all year long. Dallas prioritized defense on KG so that Wally would be forced to beat them. Dallas knew that couldn't happen.

http://apps.startribune.com/blogs/user_images/ajrayno_1364589457_ajrayno_1364582960_Flip.jpg

[eklip]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Dirk - Please add since it feels incomplete

NBA champion: 2011
NBA Finals MVP: 2011
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2007
11

[DirkNowitzki41]

I'm amazed more people aren't listening to the Dirk fans and picking the "Most clutch, beastly, efficient playoff player ever, all time, in history, in basketball"

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/dirkguardedbycaptainjack.jpg

one series :applause: Good to see SCdac still mad as always

Spurs fans have no room to talk. They got completely embarrased by Memphis in 2011, losing as the number 1 seed to the 8th seed. :applause:

Then they had the most epic, greatest, incredible choke ever seen in sports just this past finals :applause:

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/LeBron+James+Miami+Heat+v+San+Antonio+Spurs+on_Lf6 FgeQJl.jpg

:applause:

and now your post looks really stupid. Dirk has come up big in the playoffs every year except 07, get over it. Kinda funny how you keep going back to it, huh?

[Round Mound]

Charles Barkley and Tim Duncan > All PFs in the Play-Offs.

[russwest0]

Malone



KG
Dirk





Barkley

[DirkNowitzki41]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Help me out with this career achievement/accomplishment thing.

Kevin Garnett
Only player in NBA history to reach at least 25,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 steals and 1,500 blocks in his career

Only player in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons (1999–2000—2004–05)

Only player in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and 4 assists per game for 9 consecutive seasons (1998–99—2006–07)

Of course we can add he did these things while being on the all defensive teams.

Third player in NBA history to lead his team in all five major statistics (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks) in the same season: Minnesota Timberwolves, 2002–03

NBA Champion: 2008
Olympic gold medal: 2000
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2004
NBA Defensive Player of the Year: 2008
NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2003
15-time NBA All-Star: 1997—2011, 2013
Selected to 14 consecutive All-Star teams (1997—2011) (no game in 1999 due to lockout).
Selected, but did not play due to injury in 2008.
9-time All-NBA selection:

First Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2008
Second Team: 2001, 2002, 2005
Third Team: 1999, 2007

12-time All-Defensive:

First Team: 2000—2005, 2008—2009, 2011
Second Team: 2006—2007, 2012

NBA All-Rookie selection:

Second Team: 1996

Dirk - Please add since it feels incomplete

NBA champion: 2011
NBA Finals MVP: 2011
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2007
11

[rmt]

Spurs fans have no room to talk. They got completely embarrased by Memphis in 2011, losing as the number 1 seed to the 8th seed. :applause:

Then they had the most epic, greatest, incredible choke ever seen in sports just this past finals :applause:

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/LeBron+James+Miami+Heat+v+San+Antonio+Spurs+on_Lf6 FgeQJl.jpg

:applause:

and now your post looks really stupid. Dirk has come up big in the playoffs every year except 07, get over it. Kinda funny how you keep going back to it, huh?

I dunno - is it worse to be embarrassed in the first round during Dirk's MVP year by GSW and SJax or be beat in 7 games in the NBA Finals by Lebron/Wade/Bosh when Duncan is 37 years old? Choice seems clear to me. Mavs fans are better off discussing Malone/Barkley/KG/Dirk than bringing Duncan into the discussion.

[red1]

I take barkley first out of the bunch followed closely by kg and then dirk. Malone is overrated IMO

[Round Mound]

1-Barkley
2-Duncan
3-Malone
4-McHale
5-Pettit
6-Garnett
7-Dirk
8-Hayes
9-Webber
10-Schayes

[Pointguard]

One on the dumbest posts I have ever read. It's so ****ing obvious you have an agenda... Just stop
:lol I didn't type that I cut and paste and asked the inept people like yourself to help out. And you couldn't add to it, to level it out, but decided to just call it stupid.

You give people the opportunity to help themselves and they go the "dumbest" route. And I got the agenda.

[Purch]

Well if you post statistical accomplishments for Kg, the least you could do was add in Dirks long list of scoring accomplishments

[kentatm]

And a big part of that is Dirk...and you know it.


you'd think it'd be obvious with the year Monta Ellis is having.

[TheMarkMadsen]

It's amazing that there's even a discussion for Dirk > KG

It was never a question that KG & Duncan were the 2 best power forwards with Dirk being tier below.

2011 doesn't outweigh the 10 years that KG was clearly better for.

[Purch]

1-Barkley
2-Duncan
3-Malone
4-McHale
5-Pettit
6-Garnett
7-Dirk
8-Hayes
9-Webber
10-Schayes
What's your justification for having McHale over Garnett and Dirk?

[DMAVS41]

It's amazing that there's even a discussion for Dirk > KG

It was never a question that KG & Duncan were the 2 best power forwards with Dirk being tier below.

2011 doesn't outweigh the 10 years that KG was clearly better for.

And what years would those be?

02? When preprime Dirk outplayed KG in the playoffs?

Or when Dirk was probably better than KG from 06 to present each year other than maybe 08.

[DMAVS41]

you'd think it'd be obvious with the year Monta Ellis is having.

You'd think that, but apparently these people can't grasp stuff like that.

So you get Dirk...a player that makes his teammates better to absurd degrees...gets hate for apparently not making his teammates better.

I guess Ellis putting up 22/6/4 57% TS has nothing to do with Dirk.

[kshutts1]

I disagree, when you look at Duncan's resume, you're looking at a top 10 player of all time. Even though its arguable if you're just comparing peaks of these players, wants you take accomplishments into consideration Duncan seperates himself from the pack

I'm of the belief that KG and Duncan are basically interchangeable from a "impact" standpoint, though both in different ways. That said, I believe "Duncan's accomplishments" vs. KG's are more a product of the team and system fused nearly perfectly with the skillsets of one (Duncan), while the other has not had that luxury.

Essentially, if they switched teams from the start, I believe we'd view KG as the unquestioned #1 PF, and not Duncan.

When ranking players that I've never seen play, or have not seen a lot of, I have no choice but to rely on things such as MVPs, All NBA teams, noted defensive abilities/deficiencies, Championships (though as more of a tie-breaker, as they're team-oriented), etc.

With players I have seen extensively, however, I go almost solely by the eye-test, and not by the above criteria. For a lot of players, they're almost always one-and-the-same, but for some instances, especially where it's pretty obvious that one players was lucky as hell and another was unlucky, my opinions will differ pretty dramatically.

Edit: And I have no clue how/where to rank Pettit. Never saw him play.

[Legends66NBA7]

What's your justification for having McHale over Garnett and Dirk?

My assumption is just as high, if not better peak than both, and higher fg%.

[Legends66NBA7]

I'm of the belief that KG and Duncan are basically interchangeable from a "impact" standpoint, though both in different ways. That said, I believe "Duncan's accomplishments" vs. KG's are more a product of the team and system fused nearly perfectly with the skillsets of one (Duncan), while the other has not had that luxury.

Essentially, if they switched teams from the start, I believe we'd view KG as the unquestioned #1 PF, and not Duncan.

I honestly don't see Garnett winning as many titles on the Spurs as Duncan did. I also think the Spurs would be on the decline by now with Garnett over Duncan. Duncan also seems to have the higher longevity of the 2.

Plus, if Duncan was on the T-Wolves or Celtics (say they one the 1st overall pick the year in 1997), then we would see Duncan being used more on offense and have more responsibility, so he would have more room to show that his stats would be higher with his team being bad.

[Purch]

My assumption is just as high, if not better peak than both, and higher fg%.
O yea, I forgot, Roundmound does his rankings soley on Peaks

[spacebump]

Dirk
Barkley
Malone
KG

Imagine if Dirk had Stockton most of his career. He'd have more than one title. (and Stockton would be a champion)

[Legends66NBA7]

Dirk
Barkley
Malone
KG

Imagine if Dirk had Stockton most of his career. He'd have more than one title. (and Stockton would be a champion)

I don't know about that. Who is he winning a title over in the 80's-90's ?

[Kblaze8855]

you'd think it'd be obvious with the year Monta Ellis is having.


You say that as if Monta has not had 3 week stretches like this and better. Dude shot like 56% over 3 months once. He put up 23/6 on 48% shooting over a 16 game march last year.

Hes been up and down his whole career. Too far up and too far down to get excited over 22/6 over 19 games. Hes a career 20/5 46% shooting player.

Minus his first season dragging his averages down hes probably not far from his career usual. He wasnt coming off a 55 million dollar deal because he couldnt put in work.

[fragokota]

1-Barkley
2-Duncan
3-Malone
4-McHale
5-Pettit
6-Garnett
7-Dirk
8-Hayes
9-Webber
10-Schayes

PF position is the only one where there are so many white guys in the top 10 goat list

[DMAVS41]

You say that as if Monta has not had 3 week stretches like this and better. Dude shot like 56% over 3 months once. He put up 23/6 on 48% shooting over a 16 game march last year.

Hes been up and down his whole career. Too far up and too far down to get excited over 22/6 over 19 games. Hes a career 20/5 46% shooting player.

Minus his first season dragging his averages down hes probably not far from his career usual. He wasnt coming off a 55 million dollar deal because he couldnt put in work.

He's at 57% TS...it's how he's doing it that is the big difference. Ellis hasn't played this well since 08...when he was in a total run and gun no defense Nellie Ball system.

[rmt]

I'm of the belief that KG and Duncan are basically interchangeable from a "impact" standpoint, though both in different ways. That said, I believe "Duncan's accomplishments" vs. KG's are more a product of the team and system fused nearly perfectly with the skillsets of one (Duncan), while the other has not had that luxury.

Essentially, if they switched teams from the start, I believe we'd view KG as the unquestioned #1 PF, and not Duncan.

When ranking players that I've never seen play, or have not seen a lot of, I have no choice but to rely on things such as MVPs, All NBA teams, noted defensive abilities/deficiencies, Championships (though as more of a tie-breaker, as they're team-oriented), etc.

With players I have seen extensively, however, I go almost solely by the eye-test, and not by the above criteria. For a lot of players, they're almost always one-and-the-same, but for some instances, especially where it's pretty obvious that one players was lucky as hell and another was unlucky, my opinions will differ pretty dramatically.

Edit: And I have no clue how/where to rank Pettit. Never saw him play.

IMO, Duncan's low-post game and protection of the rim/paint was more conducive to winning in the playoffs than KG's jump shooting and versatile, (more) perimeter (further away from the basket) defense. TD's more back-to-the-basket style drew a lot of double-teams and opened up the 3-point shot - so cheap veterans like Finley, Barry, Bowen, etc could just sit on the 3-point line waiting for open shots.

I also think that KG shied away (more than Duncan) from taking shots in clutch situation. And though Duncan gets knocked for it, his versatility of being able to play Center too is something KG really couldn't do (I mean in his prime, not now when there's a dearth of good bigs).

[Kblaze8855]

The TS again....which of course makes me go back to see his numbers so no time is even really saved...which shows me...

Hes shooting 85% from the line after only shooting 80% once in his career. Who we crediting there?

You were saying not long ago Monta was as good as the MVP in 2011. Now if he has a good 19 games Dirk did it for him?

[Young X]

I honestly don't see Garnett winning as many titles on the Spurs as Duncan did.In what years don't they win?

[DMAVS41]

The TS again....which of course makes me go back to see his numbers so no time is even really saved...which shows me...

Hes shooting 85% from the line after only shooting 80% once in his career. Who we crediting there?

You were saying not long ago Monta was as good as the MVP in 2011. Now if he has a good 19 games Dirk did it for him?

What?

I'm not saying Dirk did it for him. I'm saying that his overall efficiency has greatly been helped by the Dirk pick and roll and spacing he gets.

If you knew anything you'd realize that Ellis is leading the league in getting to the rim. And he's getting great looks throughout games off pick and rolls with Dirk.

Nobody ever said it's all Dirk. It is, however, a legit response to people claiming Dirk doesn't make his teammates better.

You think it's just random that Ellis is having the most efficient year he's had in like 5 years?

[Kblaze8855]

I dont much care about the teammates better angle. It varies from guy to guy. He sure as hell wasnt making Nash better when he goes to phoenix and turns into Bob cousy with a jumper. On the other hand there are role players who make a name for themselves on the Mavs then are never heard from again elsewhere. So its pretty...whatever...to me.

I just dont know if Monta is a guy to make a big deal out of a 23/6 good shooting stretch when he does it pretty much yearly.

[DMAVS41]

I dont much care about the teammates better angle. It varies from guy to guy. He sure as hell wasnt making Nash better when he goes to phoenix and turns into Bob cousy with a jumper. On the other hand there are role players who make a name for themselves on the Mavs then are never heard from again elsewhere. So its pretty...whatever...to me.

I just dont know if Monta is a guy to make a big deal out of a 23/6 good shooting stretch when he does it pretty much yearly.

Who made a big deal about it? It was one comment from a guy in response to the notion that Dirk doesn't make his teammates better.

I'll let you slide on the Nash comment because I know you are butt hurt about getting roasted in the other thread. Even I know you aren't dumb enough to fail to comprehend the Nash thing...At least I hope you aren't.

:cheers:

[Pointguard]

I honestly don't see Garnett winning as many titles on the Spurs as Duncan did. I also think the Spurs would be on the decline by now with Garnett over Duncan. Duncan also seems to have the higher longevity of the 2.

I also think that KG shied away (more than Duncan) from taking shots in clutch situation. And though Duncan gets knocked for it, his versatility of being able to play Center too is something KG really couldn't do (I mean in his prime, not now when there's a dearth of good bigs).

Plus, if Duncan was on the T-Wolves or Celtics (say they one the 1st overall pick the year in 1997), then we would see Duncan being used more on offense and have more responsibility, so he would have more room to show that his stats would be higher with his team being bad.

IMO, Duncan's low-post game and protection of the rim/paint was more conducive to winning in the playoffs than KG's jump shooting and versatile, (more) perimeter (further away from the basket) defense. TD's more back-to-the-basket style drew a lot of double-teams and opened up the 3-point shot - so cheap veterans like Finley, Barry, Bowen, etc could just sit on the 3-point line waiting for open shots.

I also think that KG shied away (more than Duncan) from taking shots in clutch situation. And though Duncan gets knocked for it, his versatility of being able to play Center too is something KG really couldn't do (I mean in his prime, not now when there's a dearth of good bigs).


Of course we can't guess what would be if the teams were reversed but past his prime KG in a good system won it all immediately and would have definitely won another if he didn't get injured and there is a very good argument that they win two more if KG is healthy. So this post prime KG wins two maybe three rings, and this with Legends66NBA7 saying his longevity isn't as good as Duncan's. So the argument is does he get one or two in or near his prime. KG in a good system, with the best coach, and solid players in his prime, the best scouts, could definitely win two rings in his prime if he came in the league armed with those assets.

And the best thing about Popovich, along the lines of KG's best attributes, is that Pop is by far the most versatile coach in the league as his teams can morph into a running team, PNR, inside out, backdoors, and employ different defenses throughout the game.

And you would have to believe that KG with Robinson was a better fit. And KG never had a co-star that was the best perimeter defender in the league. He never had an all-team defender on his team when he was healthy.

I have Duncan ahead of KG but KG is the only one that could match him in every way. If KG was in a structured system, with a good coach its hard to say what he would have been like. Their numbers careerwise and H2H were stunningly similar over a 12 year span.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264372&page=2
Regular Season..W...MP....FG...FGA...FG%....FT...FTA..FT%.
Tim Duncan......23..37.9..7.8..16.8..0.462...4.3...6.9 ...0.628
Kevin Garnett...17..38.1..8.3..18.3..0.456...3.8...4.9.. .0.779

Regular Season..ORB..DRB..TRB...AST..STL..BLK..PTS
Tim Duncan.......3.4....8.8...12.2..3.3...0.5...1.9..1 9.9
Kevin Garnett....2.5....8.6...11.1...4.3...1.4...2....20 .6


Playoffs..........W.....MP.....FG....FGA.....FG%.. ..FT....FTA...FT%
Tim Duncan.....6....40.5....7.9...17......0.463....4.9 ...7......0.696
Kevin Garnett..2.....41.9...7.8....17.1`.0.453....5.9... 7.4`..0.797

Playoffs...........ORB...DRB..TRB.....AST...STL... .BLK..PTS
Tim Duncan......3.9....8......11.9`..3.4`...0.9....2.5 ...20.6
Kevin Garnett...3.3....8.8`..12......4........1.4....1.8 ...21.4

[Purch]

I dont much care about the teammates better angle. It varies from guy to guy. He sure as hell wasnt making Nash better when he goes to phoenix and turns into Bob cousy with a jumper. On the other hand there are role players who make a name for themselves on the Mavs then are never heard from again elsewhere. So its pretty...whatever...to me.

I just dont know if Monta is a guy to make a big deal out of a 23/6 good shooting stretch when he does it pretty much yearly.
It's a stretch to say Dirk didn't make Nash any better. If you watched Nash when he first joined Dallas, fans were ripping him apart, and didnt think he was a part of their future. However, by his third year in Dallas commentators were already referencing him as a top 5 pg in the leauge. His efficiency was excellent and his apg were top 5 in the league, and I dont think that development happens without playing in an offense next to Dirk. When he went to the Suns, he just took the next step.

[DMAVS41]

It's a stretch to say Dirk didn't make Nash any better. If you watched Nash when he first joined Dallas, fans were ripping him apart, and didnt think he was a part of their future. However, by his third year in Dallas commentators were already referencing him as a top 5 pg in the leauge. His efficiency was excellent and his apg were top 5 in the league, and I dont think that development happens without playing in an offense next to Dirk. When he went to the Suns, he just took the next step.

Not to mention he got healthy, the rules changed, and he played in a system that was perfect for him...

[amenra27]

1.Barkley
2.Malone
3.Garnett
4.Nowitzki

[K Xerxes]

Garnett is the best two way player here. Arguably the best defender of his generation and could give you a ridiculous amount of versatility on both the offensive and defensive end. I'd put him in Duncan's tier out of pure impact on the court, but his accomplishments are lacking in comparison of course, although possibly not necessarily because of variables that were under his control

Barkley... well, Barkley had one of the highest offensive peaks in history. I mean his prime and peak was off the charts. His longevity is kind of a let down, but he was absolutely unstoppable when on it.

Malone has the longevity and consistent production, but let down when it really mattered. He thrived on the system first and foremost, developed a sound partnership with Stockton in the P&R. I think he's pretty historically overrated when it comes to it, people are too quick to look at his scoring and think wow.

Dirk is different in that he has the most range out of all of them, just had a devastating all round scoring ability. But in terms of crashing the boards and defense... he's a step below.

Overall, probably like:

Garnett
Barkley/Malone
Malone/Barkley
Dirk

[Purch]

Just thought I'd post Phila's stats on Barkleys scoring in his 93 season

http://i.imgur.com/V0TZP3e.png

[PHILA]

Barkleys scoring in his 93 season

That is just 84 random games, whatever I could find on the internet.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296225

[GoranDragon]

1. Dirk - 1 ring 1 FMVP
2. KG - 1 ring
3. Malone - 2 finals appearances
4. Sir Chuck - 1 finals appearance

That's what future generation is going to remember them by.

[Purch]

That is just 84 random games, whatever I could find on the internet.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296225
Ahh, that thread confused me, on the saple you were referencing.

[East_Stone_Ya]

Malone............then the rest

[GoranDragon]

Malone............then the rest
Sorry but Malone was liability for his team in the post-season. He missed clutch freethrows which tainted his legacy of not winning the chip.

[Harison]

Sorry but Malone was liability for his team in the post-season. He missed clutch freethrows which tainted his legacy of not winning the chip.

To be fair, if not Jordan, he could have won one or two rings. And against MJ, how many could have won in the Finals?

[GoranDragon]

To be fair, if not Jordan, he could have won one or two rings. And against MJ, how many could have won in the Finals?
Not only that, Stockton could have gotten his FMVP. In hindsight, Malone held down Stockton's legacy too. Again, in crunch time, teams were looking to foul Malone because of his inability to make clutch freethrows. That alone makes him ranked below Dirk and KG.

[D-FENS]

We're missing Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit