Karl Malone vs Charles Barkley vs Kevin Garnett vs Dirk Nowitzki

[Duncan21formvp]

How would you rank them in order from best to worst?

[EnoughSaid]

Malone
Barkley
Garnett
Nowitzki

[ThaSwagg3r]

Peak

1. KG
2. Barkley
3. Malone
4. Dirk

All-time list/Career

1. Malone
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Barkley


I think Dirk will be ranked over KG in the all-time list when it's all said and done. Dirk has a lot left in the tank while KG's years as the franchise player are done and could retire in a few years.

[305Baller]

Barkley
Garnett
Malone
Nowitzki

[305Baller]

I really want to put Nowitzki over Malone.
But Im not sure head-to-head dirk could handle his physicality.

[knickswin]

Nowitzki
Barkley
Malone
Garnett

Sometimes I put Barkley ahead of Dirk depending on my mood. Dirk's got the ring and is probably the "greater" player, but Barkley is probably the better player.

[knickswin]

Peak

1. KG
2. Barkley
3. Malone
4. Dirk

All-time list/Career

1. Malone
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Barkley


I think Dirk will be ranked over KG in the all-time list when it's all said and done. Dirk has a lot left in the tank while KG's years as the franchise player are done and could retire in a few years.

I would take peak Barkley over peak Garnett pretty easily, he was looking like potentially the GOAT offensive player.

[kurt_rambis]

barkley
KG
malone
dirk
chilcutt

[Jacks3]

Peak/prime

1. KG
2. Barkley
3. Malone


4. Dirk

[Sheed]

Kobe
Lebron
Jared Dudley
Quincy Douby

[DMAVS41]

They are all on the same tier. When its all said and done:

1. Dirk
2. KG
3. Malone
4. Barkley

[Swaggin916]

Garnett
Dirk
Malone
Barkley

Garnett is the only one who plays/played both ends well and has a ship. Dirk is the most unstoppable offensively and has a ship. Malone and Barkley were great players, but don't have ships... I think it's really that simple. Ships do a lot for you they really do, especially when it's close.

[Swaggin916]

I really want to put Nowitzki over Malone.
But Im not sure head-to-head dirk could handle his physicality.

He'd just shoot over his ass. Dirk shits on physical defenders now just way too skilled and beats them off the dribble.

[blablabla]

kg
barkley
dirk/malone

[get these NETS]

He'd just shoot over his ass. Dirk shits on physical defenders now just way too skilled and beats them off the dribble.

think he meant when malone has the ball....dirk would get abused all day every day by malone's physicality and skills, even though he's a good 3 inches taller with much longer wingspan

[get these NETS]

Barkley-most talented player out of the bunch...elite offensive skills, elite rebounding, hardnosed player,

Dirk-prolific scorer,finally did in the off season what he's been doing in regular season...causing matchup headaches and destroying the other team


Malone-elite scorer, and finisher, played at a high level for over ten years

KG-modern day bill russell in terms of being the most important player on his team while never having to shoulder the responsibility of being THE man..he flourished in Boston because they used him in a pippen-esque fashion

[midatlantic09]

All I know is that Dirk should rank last out of that bunch.

[FatComputerNerd]

KG is #1 IMO

Most versatile out of the bunch, and when in his prime really could do it all.

After him it's tough to rank them. Dirk is a great player but is also not known for his defense, and is rather one dimensional. Based on that I probably put him last out of the bunch.

[305Baller]

KG is #1 IMO

Most versatile out of the bunch, and when in his prime really could do it all.

After him it's tough to rank them. Dirk is a great player but is also not known for his defense, and is rather one dimensional. Based on that I probably put him last out of the bunch.

Prime Barkley vs prime KG would have been something.

[Yung D-Will]

As Players:

Barkley
Garnett
Malone
Dirk

[brownmamba00]

KG
Bark/Dirk
Bark/Dirk
Malone

[crosso√er]

They are all on the same tier. When its all said and done:

1. Dirk
2. KG
3. Malone
4. Barkley

:roll:

[crosso√er]

1) Karl Malone
2) Charles Barkley
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Dirk Nowitzki

And it's not even debatable; only thing worth debating about is whether Charles is better then Malone. Garnett was the better overall player then Dirk; Dirk had more success as a player though.

Give Garnett Dirk's team for the last 11 years (and switch Dirk to Minnesota); Dirk wouldn't even be a top fifty player of all-time.

Sorry, he's an amazing scorer; but is average to good at everything else. Garnett is great at everything; his only downfall is being too passive in the 4th. He isn't no where near as good of a scorer as Dirk either; he's undoubtedly a better rebounder, defender and playmaker.

It's not really hard for me to choose Garnett over Dirk if I'm starting an expansion team. Dirk could be more valuable if that team were a contender though; because he most certainly is a more clutch basketball player.

Defense: Garnett
Metrical Dominance: Garnett (more well-rounded numbers)
Personal Accolades: Garnett
Success: Dirk
Clutch Ability: Dirk

The only thing I'd give to Dirk is his ability to take-over games with his scoring and being a MUCH more versatile scorer. Success is heavily circumstantial in this case considering one played in Minnesota for ten years, the other with Dallas (along side guys like Nash, Finley, Howard, Terry, Kidd etc etc etc.). :rolleyes:

[Yung D-Will]

1) Karl Malone
2) Charles Barkley
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Dirk Nowitzki

And it's not even debatable; only thing worth debating about is whether Charles is better then Malone. Garnett was the better overall player then Dirk; Dirk had more success as a player though.

Give Garnett Dirk's team for the last 11 years (and switch Dirk to Minnesota); Dirk wouldn't even be a top fifty player of all-time.

Sorry, he's an amazing scorer; but is average to good at everything else. Garnett is great at everything; his only downfall is being too passive in the 4th. He isn't no where near as good of a scorer as Dirk either; he's undoubtedly a better rebounder, defender and playmaker.

It's not really hard for me to choose Garnett over Dirk if I'm starting an expansion team. Dirk could be more valuable if that team were a contender though; because he most certainly is a more clutch basketball player.

Defense: Garnett
Metrical Dominance: Garnett (more well-rounded numbers)
Personal Accolades: Garnett
Success: Dirk
Clutch Ability: Dirk

The only thing I'd give to Dirk is his ability to take-over games with his scoring and being a MUCH more versatile scorer. Success is heavily circumstantial in this case considering one played in Minnesota for ten years, the other with Dallas (along side guys like Nash, Finley, Howard, Terry, Kidd etc etc etc.). :rolleyes:
I think Kg vs Barkley and Kg vs Malone is very debatable

[Round Mound]

[B]1-Barkley (prime: the most beastly)
2-Duncan (even though he was is more a of CF, fundamentals and post d)
3-Malone (longevity and good post game later in his career, not an efficient play-off p

[Samurai Swoosh]

KG > Barkley > Malone > Nowitzki

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Peak Barkley was better than all those other 3 guys.
Peak:
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk

All time Wise:
Barkley/Malone
Malone/Barkley
KG
Dirk

[Jacks3]

1)



Give Garnett Dirk's team for the last 11 years (and switch Dirk to Minnesota); Dirk wouldn't even be a top fifty player of all-time.



:facepalm

Dirk is one of the best offensive players ever. That alone makes him top 25-30 regardless of where he plays.

[catch24]

In their absolute peaks, I'd go:

KG - best all-around player of the group; was also the best defensive player by a WIDE margin
Barkley - best rebounder and second best (maybe best depending on what your team is looking for) offensive player of the group
Dirk - best shooter and most versatile scorer of the group
Malone - strongest (physically) and up there high on the list if you're looking for midrange/efficient points within a team offense

In that order. Honestly can't go wrong with any of these guys. It's a tossup and I can see multiple arguments for one over the other.

[knickswin]

y'all are underrating Dirk. Show me those other players' finals MVPs

[get these NETS]

y'all are underrating Dirk. Show me those other players' finals MVPs

charles Barkley was legitimately one of the top 10 players in the NBA during what many say was the golden era of league play.

Arguably 5 years as one of the top 5 players on earth......

Not just based on nba accolades but honest evaluation by anybody who watched the league back then.

[Round Mound]

charles Barkley was legitimately one of the top 10 players in the NBA during what many say was the golden era of league play.

Arguably 5 years as one of the top 5 players on earth......

Not just based on nba accolades but honest evaluation by anybody who watched the league back then.

He is also

Top 11 All Time in Season PER
Top 11 All Time in Play-Off PER
Top 10 All Time in EFF
Top 5 All Time in Plus/Minus
Top 4 All Time in Shot Made/Missed Diferential

Infact Barkley was the 2nd Best Player from 88-93 after MJ and then it was Hakeem for 94 and 95

Him Hakeem and MJ are really Top 10 Players of All Time

[knickswin]

charles Barkley was legitimately one of the top 10 players in the NBA during what many say was the golden era of league play.

Arguably 5 years as one of the top 5 players on earth......

Not just based on nba accolades but honest evaluation by anybody who watched the league back then.

yes and I put Barkley as my 1b. His peak play was outstanding and I think he was pretty easily the most talented power forward ever.

I don't get why everyone thinks Garnett is better than Dirk. He's like an overgrown Pippen . . .

[ShaqAttack3234]

No idea how to rank them all time, but Barkley was the most dominant in his prime and imo, easily the best offensive player out of the 4, and the best rebounder as well. Great passer as well, though he did have a tendency to hold the ball for a long time, but he was doubled more than any of the other players.

KG had the fewest weaknesses out of them and I'd rank him as the best defender and passer. Malone had a freakish longevity, and was very good at getting easy baskets alongside Stockton, he also became an excellent passer as well. Second best defender out of these players, and the best post defender.

Dirk has the best playoff resume and I think you could legitimately make the case that he's the second best scorer of the group. Along with Barkley, I'd trust him to be the man on offense over the other 2.

Both KG and Barkley had most of their primes wasted on teams that didn't have legit shots at winning titles which I think has to be factored in.

So, Barkley is my pick for best, and honestly, I could put the next 3 in any order.

[get these NETS]

yes and I put Barkley as my 1b. His peak play was outstanding and I think he was pretty easily the most talented power forward ever.

I don't get why everyone thinks Garnett is better than Dirk. He's like an overgrown Pippen . . .

i have kg as number 4 on the list

[knickswin]

i have kg as number 4 on the list

I pretty much agree with your list the only difference is I have Barkley and Dirk as somewhat interchangeable with maybe the slight edge given to Dirk because he went the distance.

and sorry, I didn't mean to address you with my KG comment. I was just saying that most people here are putting him among the top and better than Dirk.

[Swaggin916]

how does Barkley get so much love when he didn't play any sort of D? How does he get more love than Dirk who is the better scorer out of the 2 and at least attempts to play defense? Because he got more boards? true enough the chuckster was a great rebounder, but Dirk is a solid rebounder (has tailed off a bit as he gets older) and can score from anywhere... add on top of that you can't put him on the line.

IMO these 2 guys are pretty much strictly offensive players with Dirk playing better D, and Barkley being the better rebounder so it evens out. So judging strictly by their offensive games, I have to give the edge to Dirk.

[the_wise_one]

Dirk
Barkley
Malone
KG

[Yung D-Will]

how does Barkley get so much love when he didn't play any sort of D? How does he get more love than Dirk who is the better scorer out of the 2 and at least attempts to play defense? Because he got more boards? true enough the chuckster was a great rebounder, but Dirk is a solid rebounder (has tailed off a bit as he gets older) and can score from anywhere... add on top of that you can't put him on the line.

IMO these 2 guys are pretty much strictly offensive players with Dirk playing better D, and Barkley being the better rebounder so it evens out. So judging strictly by their offensive games, I have to give the edge to Dirk.
Exactly when did Dirk become a better scorer than Barkley

[FatComputerNerd]

yes and I put Barkley as my 1b. His peak play was outstanding and I think he was pretty easily the most talented power forward ever.

I don't get why everyone thinks Garnett is better than Dirk. He's like an overgrown Pippen . . .

You say that like it's a bad thing...

I'll gladly take a 7'0 Pippen-esque player who can guard any position, handle the rock, and score from anywhere on the court.

[Duncan21formvp]

Peak/prime

1. KG
2. Barkley
3. Malone


4. Dirk

How was Dirk's peak that far off?

You realize Dirk has better numbers than even Bird when you compare career using WS and PER?

[purplch0de]

i cannot believe how much you guys are discrediting malone... guess that's what happens when you play for a small city. Also feel bad for stockton, guys name never comes up in any top whatever chart.

[rocfan1]

Exactly when did Dirk become a better scorer than Barkley

Dirk is not a better scorer then Malone or Barkley they can all fill it up at will

last time I checked Malong avg. 30ppg twice not Dirk and is second all-time in scoring.

Dirk fans dont remember Barkley and how he dominated this usually happens after a great play-off run give it until the next season it'll go away hopefully

[NugzHeat3]

KG was the best player at his peak. He's really equal to Duncan as a player but Duncan's low-post game gives him the edge come playoff time.

Barkley is second. He's a more dominant playoff performer than KG but miles behind defensively.

Malone is an easy third. He gets a bad rep for some of his finals performances and people act like he never had a clutch game in his life. Truth is the Jazz put too much pressure on Karl and he didn't have enough support.

IRK is dead last and would get dominated by any of these guys head to head.

[alenleomessi]

barkley
malone
kg
dirk

[necya]

Malone
Barkley

KG
Dirk

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Dirk fans dont remember Barkley and how he dominated this usually happens after a great play-off run give it until the next season it'll go away hopefully

This is the only place where people believe Barkley was that special......

[DMAVS41]

KG was the best player at his peak. He's really equal to Duncan as a player but Duncan's low-post game gives him the edge come playoff time.

Barkley is second. He's a more dominant playoff performer than KG but miles behind defensively.

Malone is an easy third. He gets a bad rep for some of his finals performances and people act like he never had a clutch game in his life. Truth is the Jazz put too much pressure on Karl and he didn't have enough support.

IRK is dead last and would get dominated by any of these guys head to head.


Like when KG dominated Dirk in the playoffs in 02. Man, KG just killed Dirk in that series. It was just horrible for Dirk. He couldn't do anything.

[brain drain]

Like when KG dominated Dirk in the playoffs in 02. Man, KG just killed Dirk in that series. It was just horrible for Dirk. He couldn't do anything.

Dont't forget KG's epic defense on Dirk. In that series, he proved that he's a true all time caliber defensive anchor.

Before the first round, KG made an announcement:



Garnett was asked about how Nowitzki is handling the ball more this season, similar to what Garnett does. The question brought forth one of this season's best quotes so far.

"Dirk can see this black angel pick him up 94 feet," Garnett told the Minneapolis Star Tribune. "We'll see how well he handles it then."


The result?

A sweep, Dallas won 3-0 and Dirk dropped the following numers on KG's sorry angel ass: 30 pts /15 rpg in Game 1, 31/15 in Game 2 and 39/17 in Game three, on 52% shooting and 72% 3pt.

[Unstoppabull]

[/B]

Like when KG dominated Dirk in the playoffs in 02. Man, KG just killed Dirk in that series. It was just horrible for Dirk. He couldn't do anything.
Omg poor Dirk!

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Dirk is not a better scorer then Malone or Barkley they can all fill it up at will

Dirk is a better scorer than Barkley.. If you take out Dirk's rookie year which skews his overall averages, the gap gets even wider.

And looking at the playoff numbers... Dirk is better scorer there as well.

[rodman91]

in Prime
Barkley
Malone
Dirk
Garnett

[eliteballer]

Starting a franchise I probably choose Garnett because he can anchor a defense better than any of the others.

For a single game I would probably take Charles.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Dirk is a better scorer than Barkley.. If you take out Dirk's rookie year which skews his overall averages, the gap gets even wider.

And looking at the playoff numbers... Dirk is better scorer there as well.

Dirk has been really phenomenal in the post-season, a lot better than most give him credit for. I'm kind of ashamed for not paying more attention to previous performances where he went down playing excellent ball and got terrible labels anyway. Between he and Barkley in the playoffs, it's pretty close but considering there isn't much either brings to the table defensively to have any kind of significant edge, I believe Barkley's 23/13/4/51% > 26/10/3/46%.

Charles killed his own numbers when he became an injury prone slob, and that isn't Dirk's problem. He was significantly better than 23PPG on 51% through his first 95 or so post-season games.

[Round Mound]

Dirk has been really phenomenal in the post-season, a lot better than most give him credit for. I'm kind of ashamed for not paying more attention to previous performances where he went down playing excellent ball and got terrible labels anyway. Between he and Barkley in the playoffs, it's pretty close but considering there isn't much either brings to the table defensively to have any kind of significant edge, I believe Barkley's 23/13/4/51% > 26/10/3/46%.

Charles killed his own numbers when he became an injury prone slob, and that isn't Dirk's problem. He was significantly better than 23PPG on 51% through his first 95 or so post-season games.

True

But definetly Barkley was the Best PF Ever from and through 1985-1995

[knickswin]

You say that like it's a bad thing...

I'll gladly take a 7'0 Pippen-esque player who can guard any position, handle the rock, and score from anywhere on the court.

It is not a bad thing per se, but I would take Dirk's and Chuck's all-time great offensive abilities over it.

And Garnett cannot gaurd any position, any decent offensive center with size can demolish him.

Kevin Garnett: jack of all trades, master of none. I will take the two players who were masters at scoring.

[knickswin]

Dirk would not get "dominated" by these guys at their peaks. First of all, we have seen peak Garnett versus Dirk and he was not dominated at all.

Also, I doubt Dirk would do anything to stop Malone and Barkley but it's not like they'd be doing anything to stop him either.

[D.J.]

Barkley
Malone
Garnett
Nowitzki

[DMAVS41]

No idea how to rank them all time, but Barkley was the most dominant in his prime and imo, easily the best offensive player out of the 4, and the best rebounder as well. Great passer as well, though he did have a tendency to hold the ball for a long time, but he was doubled more than any of the other players.

KG had the fewest weaknesses out of them and I'd rank him as the best defender and passer. Malone had a freakish longevity, and was very good at getting easy baskets alongside Stockton, he also became an excellent passer as well. Second best defender out of these players, and the best post defender.

Dirk has the best playoff resume and I think you could legitimately make the case that he's the second best scorer of the group. Along with Barkley, I'd trust him to be the man on offense over the other 2.

Both KG and Barkley had most of their primes wasted on teams that didn't have legit shots at winning titles which I think has to be factored in.

So, Barkley is my pick for best, and honestly, I could put the next 3 in any order.

Good post. I disagree, but you make some solid points.

However, I take pretty big issue with the bold. I don't see how Barkley is "easily" a better offensive player than either Dirk or Malone. I have no issue with someone taking Barkley on offense, but its far from "easy".....

Just for Dirk, he provides so much versatility and is obviously a significantly better shooter from everywhere....and you'd rather run an offense through Dirk late in games as well.

[Bring-Your-Js]

It is not a bad thing per se, but I would take Dirk's and Chuck's all-time great offensive abilities over it.

And Garnett cannot gaurd any position, any decent offensive center with size can demolish him.

Kevin Garnett: jack of all trades, master of none. I will take the two players who were masters at scoring.


:applause:

[rmt]

I've never seen less consensus in a thread. The rankings are all over the place. Here's mine:

1) KG - only because has the best defense.
2/3 Barkley/Dirk
4 Malone - don't care if he's the second leading scorer - gimme clutch scoring in the playoffs. Not that KG's as good as Barkley/Dirk in that department but his defense is the best of the 4.

[DMAVS41]

I've never seen less consensus in a thread. The rankings are all over the place. Here's mine:

1) KG - only because has the best defense.
2/3 Barkley/Dirk
4 Malone - don't care if he's the second leading scorer - gimme clutch scoring in the playoffs. Not that KG's as good as Barkley/Dirk in that department but his defense is the best of the 4.

Because its pretty much all personal preference or team need. Its pretty much impossible (for me at least) to separate them.

I think its clear that Barkley had the most talent, but I don't think he reached his potential nor did he commit himself to the game the way the others did.

Its a toss up. All 4 are top 20 players in my opinion.

[Balla_Status]

KG was the best player at his peak. He's really equal to Duncan as a player but Duncan's low-post game gives him the edge come playoff time.

Barkley is second. He's a more dominant playoff performer than KG but miles behind defensively.

Malone is an easy third. He gets a bad rep for some of his finals performances and people act like he never had a clutch game in his life. Truth is the Jazz put too much pressure on Karl and he didn't have enough support.

IRK is dead last and would get dominated by any of these guys head to head.

You still sizing up for a ring?

[Ronin]

1. Barkley
2. Malone
3. Dirk
4. Garnett

I don't think you can really argue with anyones rankings here

[CJ Mustard]

1. Barkley
2. Malone
3. Garnett

[CJ Mustard]

4. Dirk

[305Baller]

You don't think Malone would have trouble with Garnett's length?

[DMAVS41]

1. Barkley
2. Malone
3. Garnett

"A Dirk led team will never win the title....therefore I won't even rank him"

Fixed it for you.

[Jacks3]

IRK is dead last and would get dominated by any of these guys head to head.
This

[DMAVS41]

This

Why do people on here insist that KG would dominate Dirk head to head? We saw them play. KG hardly "dominated" Dirk.

And in the one time they met in the playoffs, Dirk did the dominating.

[Jacks3]

Prime KG shits on Dirk. 24/15/5/2/1+ DPOY defense and was the best player in the league. Dirk isn't on that level.

[DMAVS41]

Prime KG shits on Dirk. 24/15/5/2/1+ DPOY defense and was the best player in the league. Dirk isn't on that level.

Thank you for not responding to the post. It wasn't prime vs prime. His post that you agreed with said KG would dominate Dirk head to head.

Which of course is bullshit because we actually saw them go head to head and KG was not dominant at all.

I'd take prime KG over Dirk as well, but this BS about Dirk not being in his league needs to stop.

[Jacks3]

He's not in his league though. KG has a top 12 peak ever. Dirk's might not even be in top 20.

[DMAVS41]

He's not in his league though. KG has a top 12 peak ever. Dirk's might not even be in top 20.

So now we compare players solely on peak?

[CJ Mustard]

Prime KG shits on Dirk. 24/15/5/2/1+ DPOY defense and was the best player in the league. Dirk isn't on that level.:applause:

[Bring-Your-Js]

He's not in his league though. KG has a top 12 peak ever. Dirk's might not even be in top 20.

With no other motive whatsoever other than legitimate interest, who would you say had the Top 15 or so Peak levels in league history? Don't even have to put them in order...

[DMAVS41]

:applause:

If only we used 2 or 3 years to judge players. Then this would matter a much as you want it to.

"A Dirk led team will never win the title"

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[iamgine]

Garnett
Malone
Barkley
Nowitzki

[Jacks3]

So now we compare players solely on peak?
When two players have similar longevity, yeah, peak-play is the biggest determining factor for measuring the superior player.

[Jacks3]

With no other motive whatsoever other than legitimate interest, who would you say had the Top 15 or so Peak levels in league history? Don't even have to put them in order...
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
KG
Russ
Wilt
Bird
Magic
LeBron
Erving
Hakeem
Kobe
Wade

[DMAVS41]

When two players have similar longevity, yeah, peak-play is the biggest determining factor for measuring the superior player.

And I have no issue with someone ranking KG over Dirk. Using peak play is fine as a factor. Using it as the sole factor is flawed.

Do you value playoff play highly?

An area where Dirk beats KG pretty easily.

26/10/3 on 46/38/89 58% TS for Dirk
20/11/4 on 47/30/78 52% TS for KG

If peak KG shits on peak Dirk....then playoff Dirk shits on playoff KG.

[Jacks3]

And I have no issue with someone ranking KG over Dirk. Using peak play is fine as a factor. Using it as the sole factor is flawed.
But Dirk doesn't really have an edge in those other factors, but KG's peak (the most important factor) has a huge advantage over Dirk's.


Do you value playoff play highly?

An area where Dirk beats KG pretty easily.

26/10/3 on 46/38/89 58% TS for Dirk
20/11/4 on 47/30/78 52% TS for KG

If peak KG shits on peak Dirk....then playoff Dirk shits on playoff KG.
Those numbers don't take into account KG's vastly superior defense, and are skewed by his shitty supporting casts. Plus, many of his playoff games have come in his past-prime versions (08,2010,2011).

[DMAVS41]

But Dirk doesn't really have an edge in those other factors, but KG's peak (the most important factor) has a huge advantage over Dirk's.


Those numbers don't take into account KG's vastly superior defense, and are skewed by his shitty supporting casts. Plus, many of his playoff games have come in his past-prime versions (08,2010,2011).

They also don't take into account Dirk's vastly superior crunch time and clutch play.

I don't think peak play is the most important factor....so.....

I look at the entire body of work. Did KG have a better peak? Sure. Did KG play better defense? Sure. I have no issue with that.

But I don't limit the scope of these things. Why would you? Why not take everything in?

Why not ask questions like:

"Who do you want on your team with 5 minutes left in a close playoff game?"

Stuff like that.

And if you fairly evaluate what both players have done, you'll come to the conclusion that neither is "easily" better than the other.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Good post. I disagree, but you make some solid points.

However, I take pretty big issue with the bold. I don't see how Barkley is "easily" a better offensive player than either Dirk or Malone. I have no issue with someone taking Barkley on offense, but its far from "easy".....

Just for Dirk, he provides so much versatility and is obviously a significantly better shooter from everywhere....and you'd rather run an offense through Dirk late in games as well.

Malone wasn't as good as the regular season numbers suggest, imo. While I do think that production is the most important thing, I think he benefited a lot from the system and Stockton(same goes for Stockton, btw, so those that say it's a double standard to point this out just for Karl are correct). And in general how many easier baskets he got on the break and leaking out and of course, pick and rolls.

Which isn't to say that he couldn't score in other ways. He had skills, but I think this becomes very important when you look at Malone's playoff numbers where less easy baskets were available.

Barkley on the other hand, was simply more dominant. I wouldn't hesitate to call him at the very least one of the 5 most double teamed players of the last 20 years and there's good reason for that, I think he's one of the 5 most difficult scorers to consistently contain 1 on 1 in that time. He had the half court game and the open court game.

Which isn't to say that he didn't have his flaws offensively, because he did. One being taking some bad 3s occasionally, holding the ball too long at times, and those passes where he'd leave his feet when he got doubled and throw a cross court pass(they worked out a lot of the time, but also made him turnover prone).

Dirk is a great offensive player, and I think you could make a legit case for him being the second best offensive player on this list, but Barkley was just more dominant, imo and a better passer.

[Jacks3]

And if you fairly evaluate what both players have done, you'll come to the conclusion that neither is "easily" better than the other.
Sure he is. It's simple. Peak+prime+longevity+intangibles.

KG wins in every area. Two of those areas (peak,prime) he has a HUGE advantage.

The clutch factor is already in Dirk's offense/scoring, which is better, but not enough to make up for the huge gap in defense, re-bounding, and passing.

KG is easily superior...

[DMAVS41]

Malone wasn't as good as the regular season numbers suggest, imo. While I do think that production is the most important thing, I think he benefited a lot from the system and Stockton(same goes for Stockton, btw, so those that say it's a double standard to point this out just for Karl are correct). And in general how many easier baskets he got on the break and leaking out and of course, pick and rolls.

Which isn't to say that he couldn't score in other ways. He had skills, but I think this becomes very important when you look at Malone's playoff numbers where less easy baskets were available.

Barkley on the other hand, was simply more dominant. I wouldn't hesitate to call him at the very least one of the 5 most double teamed players of the last 20 years and there's good reason for that, I think he's one of the 5 most difficult scorers to consistently contain 1 on 1 in that time. He had the half court game and the open court game.

Which isn't to say that he didn't have his flaws offensively, because he did. One being taking some bad 3s occasionally, holding the ball too long at times, and those passes where he'd leave his feet when he got doubled and throw a cross court pass(they worked out a lot of the time, but also made him turnover prone).

Dirk is a great offensive player, and I think you could make a legit case for him being the second best offensive player on this list, but Barkley was just more dominant, imo and a better passer.

Yea. I have no issue with any of that. Agree for the most part on Malone.

I don't know how that gets you to "easily" though....and just from a Dirk perspective:

Dirk scored more points per game on similar overall efficiency in the playoffs. Dirk is a significantly better ft shooter. I personally think Dirk is the better option late in close games.

[DMAVS41]

Sure he is. It's simple. Peak+prime+longevity+intangibles.

KG wins in every area. Two of those areas (peak,prime) he has a HUGE advantage.

The clutch factor is already in Dirk's offense/scoring, which is better, but not enough to make up for the huge gap in defense, re-bounding, and passing.

KG is easily superior...

Thankfully we don't break players down like that. It leads to crappy conclusions.

And sorry, saying KG is easily superior to Dirk is a crappy and flawed conclusion.

Agree to disagree.

[Jacks3]

And sorry, saying KG is easily superior to Dirk is a crappy and flawed conclusion.

.
No, prime/peak KG is easily superior as a player,which is all that really matters. It's not a flawed conclusion at all...

[Kblaze8855]

Thankfully we don't break players down like that. It leads to crappy conclusions.

2 questions...

Who is "we"?

And what crappy conclusions would it lead to?

Dont need a huge list. Just a general idea. I cant really see it. IVe always thought the better player is the player who....played the best. Barring absurd stretches like "Well _____ scored ___ once...so is he a great scorer?" its always felt pretty reasonable.

[DMAVS41]

No, prime/peak KG is easily superior as a player,which is all that really matters. It's not a flawed conclusion at all...

No its not.

Keep thinking that though.

You can keep thinking KG is easily superior while Dirk goes down as the superior player by most accounts when its all said and done.

[DMAVS41]

2 questions...

Who is "we"?

And what crappy conclusions would it lead to?

Dont need a huge list. Just a general idea. I cant really see it. IVe always thought the better player is the player who....played the best. Barring absurd stretches like "Well _____ scored ___ once...so is he a great scorer?" its always felt pretty reasonable.

We in just the general term of the basketball world.

What do you mean? You really think its fair to say that Kevin Garnett was easily as superior player than Dirk? You must be joking.

This word "easily" is being tossed around way too much here concerning players that are all on the same tier.

It depends on how you define peak or prime. If its only a couple year then its a hugely flawed notion of ranking players. If its a 5 or 6 year stretch....then it has more merit. Of course, like anything, it would be player specific.

There shouldn't be some specific criteria each player has to check off in order to be ranked in a certain spot.

In this case, all I hear is that KG had the better peak. Great. Well done. And I don't debate that. In fact, I still have KG over Dirk all time.

But I'd counter that argument with Dirk outperforming KG in the playoffs for his career. What is more important? KG having a better 2 year peak or Dirk playing better in the playoffs for his career?

I don't know. I do know that any criteria being used to say that KG was easily better than Dirk is flawed. And in many player comparisons I find too much emphasis being place on a 2 year peak.

[Jacks3]

No its not.

Keep thinking that though.

You can keep thinking KG is easily superior while Dirk goes down as the superior player by most accounts when its all said and done.
I doubt it. He might be higher on the all-time lists, but those things are flawed. They give too much credit to contextual things like team-success and accolades.

The superior player though? KG easily.

[DMAVS41]

I doubt it. He might be higher on the all-time lists, but those things are flawed. They give too much credit to contextual things like team-success and accolades.

The superior player though? KG easily.

And you give way too much credit to a 2 year peak.

When players are close I usually just focus on the playoffs. Dirk is the better playoff performer. Easily.....certainly based on your loose use of the word.

But I'm not going to change my tune just because you are being an idiot. I have KG over Dirk right now all time. When its all said and done though I'll have Dirk unless he drops off a ton.

[Jacks3]

I'm an idiot because I believe KG is easily the superior player? lol

Most knowledgeable fans would take KG without thinking twice.

:pimp:

[DMAVS41]

I'm an idiot because I believe KG is easily the superior player? lol

Most knowledgeable fans would take KG without thinking twice.

:pimp:

No, they wouldn't.

And it would depend on what kind of team you have. KG could never lead the 11 Mavs to a title. It just wouldn't happen.

Just like Dirk could never anchor a defense the way KG has.

I'd love to see KG consistently come through with the game on the line in the playoffs. Close games are inevitable....and that is why the skills Dirk has are often overlooked. They are more valuable than they get credit for. Late game play in the playoffs matters a lot. Dirk is simply far superior in this area to KG.

You aren't factoring that in enough to your formula mate.

[Jacks3]

If you have KG's DPOY defense, it's likely the games wouldn't even be close in the 4th. And I could certainly see 04 KG winning with the 2011 Mavs. They'd be the best defense in the league easily...

[DMAVS41]

If you have KG's DPOY defense, it's likely the games wouldn't even be close in the 4th. And I could certainly see 04 KG winning with the 2011 Mavs. They'd be the best defense in the league easily...

Close games are inevitable.

LOL at the idea that you put KG on the Mavs this year and they just blow everyone out.

Not how it works. Basketball doesn't work like that.

Totally agree the Mavs defense would have been great. But it wouldn't be enough. A lot of the Mavs offensive players would get worse.

[Kblaze8855]

We in just the general term of the basketball world.

Reading this topic and many others..and talking t opeople about it for decades...im not sure thats the case.



What do you mean? You really think its fair to say that Kevin Garnett was easily as superior player than Dirk? You must be joking.

This word "easily" is being tossed around way too much here concerning players that are all on the same tier.

While I totally agree that "Easily" and "its not even close" are overused...

If I have a dollar and you have a dollar and 4 cets....you easily have more money than me. Its a fact. beyond dispute. If it is beyond dispute...id call it "Not eve nclose". To people who consider the fact that KG is better than Dirk at every single thing one could do during a basketball game...except for the 20 seconds of 40 minutes you shoot....

They might take that to mean he is factually better. Inarguably so. And therefore...easily better. Not easily as in...by miles and miles. By by a measurable difference that is beyond dispute.


It depends on how you define peak or prime. If its only a couple year then its a hugely flawed notion of ranking players. If its a 5 or 6 year stretch....then it has more merit. Of course, like anything, it would be player specific.

Though there are not many examples to cite...a 2 year prime wouldnt bug me. Ive seen Bill Walton. I wouldnt argue if someone said he was better than some guys ive seen ranked top 20. Im not 100%..sure...Tmac couldnt play better than guys ive seen ranked top 20 or even top 10.

How long he was capable of it doesnt change that he was.



There shouldn't be some specific criteria each player has to check off in order to be ranked in a certain spot.

I agree. The checklist logic never made sense to me.


In this case, all I hear is that KG had the better peak. Great. Well done. And I don't debate that. In fact, I still have KG over Dirk all time.

But I'd counter that argument with Dirk outperforming KG in the playoffs for his career. What is more important? KG having a better 2 year peak or Dirk playing better in the playoffs for his career?

You are stuck on 2 years for some reason. KG was pretty much the same player from 2001 to 2006 or so. Hell he put up 23/12/5 2 steals and 2 blocks and was second in MVP voting in 2000. As a total player dirk at his very best was never as good as KG was then. Just comes down to what you want out of a player. Some people see better as...the guy who does most things better.

Some people(a lot of people) will always say the best scorer is the best player. Some kinda get abstract and go into the checklist shit....

At this points its pretty "eh" to me most of the time.



I don't know. I do know that any criteria being used to say that KG was easily better than Dirk is flawed. And in many player comparisons I find too much emphasis being place on a 2 year peak.

A dollar isnt a lot more than 99 cents. But its still not up for arguing which is more. I think thats how some people see it. Nobody think KG was the best player in the league and Dirk was 34th. You just take "Easily" the wrong way I suspect.

[Jacks3]

Close games are inevitable.
True, but there would be less close games with KG.

LOL at the idea that you put KG on the Mavs this year and they just blow everyone out.

I didn't say that...



Totally agree the Mavs defense would have been great. But it wouldn't be enough. A lot of the Mavs offensive players would get worse.
I disagree. Prime KG is a tremendous passer and he draws a ton a ton of defensive attention as well. They wouldn't be quite as good offensively, but still very good, and much better defensively. KG/Chandler on your front-court with perimeter defenders like Kidd/Marion/Stevenson would be sick...

[Butters]

The top 10 way

Dirk
KG
barkley
Malone

First 2 have somthing the second 2 don't

If this is becoming a peak play only debate,Barkley is better than all 3.

[DMAVS41]

Reading this topic and many others..and talking t opeople about it for decades...im not sure thats the case.




While I totally agree that "Easily" and "its not even close" are overused...

If I have a dollar and you have a dollar and 4 cets....you easily have more money than me. Its a fact. beyond dispute. If it is beyond dispute...id call it "Not eve nclose". To people who consider the fact that KG is better than Dirk at every single thing one could do during a basketball game...except for the 20 seconds of 40 minutes you shoot....

They might take that to mean he is factually better. Inarguably so. And therefore...easily better. Not easily as in...by miles and miles. By by a measurable difference that is beyond dispute.



Though there are not many examples to cite...a 2 year prime wouldnt bug me. Ive seen Bill Walton. I wouldnt argue if someone said he was better than some guys ive seen ranked top 20. Im not 100%..sure...Tmac couldnt play better than guys ive seen ranked top 20 or even top 10.

How long he was capable of it doesnt change that he was.




I agree. The checklist logic never made sense to me.



You are stuck on 2 years for some reason. KG was pretty much the same player from 2001 to 2006 or so. Hell he put up 23/12/5 2 steals and 2 blocks and was second in MVP voting in 2000. As a total player dirk at his very best was never as good as KG was then. Just comes down to what you want out of a player. Some people see better as...the guy who does most things better.

Some people(a lot of people) will always say the best scorer is the best player. Some kinda get abstract and go into the checklist shit....

At this points its pretty "eh" to me most of the time.




A dollar isnt a lot more than 99 cents. But its still not up for arguing which is more. I think thats how some people see it. Nobody think KG was the best player in the league and Dirk was 34th. You just take "Easily" the wrong way I suspect.

Easily implies things in this case. Your example about a person having a dollar and me having 4 more cents doesn't really fit. That is just factual. Its something that can't be disputed.

I think Dirk being ranked over KG is acceptable. When did it become a fact that Kevin Garnett is a better basketball player than Dirk? That is what the term "easily" implies.

Why would you ever compare two players if one of them is without a doubt or easily better than the other.

My question would be why certain things matter more than others. Why is peak play solely about regular season play in this case? I'm trying to stay on the broad issues, but I disagree that KG was as good in 01 as we he was in 04. I think that would only come from someone that didn't watch KG play much. Its more than the stats.

You say Dirk was never as good as KG those years. I disagree with that. But that really isn't important.

I could simply counter with Dirk having 5 playoff runs better than KG's best by PER. 3 based on win shares.

I'm all for throwing out outlier years if that is what you want. But I don't like ignoring the entire career.

Your breakdown of Dirk is absurd. He's simply a better offensive player. His mere presence on the floor and what he can do on that end actually matters. Dirk is not just worth the 20 seconds a game he shoots. You have to factor in how much more capable Dirk is with having an offense run through him. Or the fact that he's much better in the clutch. That he's a more versatile scorer....etc.

I understand your point, but boiling down Dirk to just 20 seconds of shooting a game is not fair.

Again, its not a fact that KG is/was a better player. If it is, then this debate is even more pointless. But again, I think KG was a slightly better player overall. I just don't think the degree to which jacks is saying he was is accurate.

I think its actually you that is not understanding the point of him using the word "easily".....he is using that to imply its absolutely absurd for them to even be compared. That Dirk has no business being in that conversation. And that is just not true for anyone that actually watched them both play.

Again, you say Dirk was never as good as KG from 01 to 06.....yet in 2002 (not even close to Dirk's peak as a player)....Dirk outplayed KG head to head in the series. Yes, you can come up with a bunch of excuses for KG, but I don't see how you can make that statement given the fact that 02 Dirk isn't nearly as good as 09 Dirk (his peak imo). So you really think 02 KG is definitely better than 09 Dirk? I don't see it. And this is where you get into a flawed place in my opinion.

What does the phrase "as a total player" even mean? Why isn't it just about overall impact? Sometimes there are guys that are greater players that don't have as good of an overall game.

In this case, 02 KG is the more complete player.....but 09 Dirk is the better player. He's more valuable.

And just to go back to 02:

Game 1. the score was tied going into the 4th qtr. Billups played a great game with 25/6/9 on 50% shooting. Wally and Rasho played well as well. If KG is so much better than Dirk....where was he? Why didn't he stop Dirk from getting 30 and 15????? KG got plenty of help. The Wolves outrebounded the Mavs by 19 that game. KG got 6 more than Dirk. So KG's supporting cast dominated Dirk's on the glass. KG shot 33%...the rest of his team shot 42%. Dirk shot 53%...the rest of his team shot 43%.

Game 2. KG got a combined 50 points on 53% shooting from Billups and Wally. Where was KG's defense? How come it had no impact on the game? the Mavs scored 122 points and Dirk went for 31 and 15 again.

Game 3. Dirk goes for 39 and 17 on 65% shooting. KG goes for 22 and 17 on 47% shooting. The Mavs score 115 points again. Why did KG not stop Dirk? Where was his impact????

So you state that 02 KG is superior to every version of Dirk....yet 02 Dirk outplayed 02 KG in a playoff series when it matters most. How does that work for you? No matter how crazy anyone is, everyone knows that 02 Dirk is absolutely not his peak. Its actually not even close. So if 02 Dirk can hold his own like that, what logic are you using to claim that actual "peak dirk" is inferior to that version of KG.

Doesn't make sense to me. And these are the faulty conclusions I was talking about. The truth is that Dirk has been as good or better than 01 and 02 KG many times in his career. Not as complete overall, but definitely as good or better in terms of overall IMPACT. And that is what matters.

[CJ Mustard]

No, they wouldn't.

Yes, they would.

[DMAVS41]

True, but there would be less close games with KG.

I didn't say that...



I disagree. Prime KG is a tremendous passer and he draws a ton a ton of defensive attention as well. They wouldn't be quite as good offensively, but still very good, and much better defensively. KG/Chandler on your front-court with perimeter defenders like Kidd/Marion/Stevenson would be sick...


Yep...and it would be great until those inevitable close games happen and the Mavs would rely heavily on KG......and Terry becomes less of a threat without Dirk drawing so much attention on the pick and roll.

Winning is extremely fragile. Take game 2 of the NBA finals. Lets say it comes down to the same situation and the Mavs fail to win the game because Dirk isn't there to hit the game winner. Does that change the series enough to change the outcome?

Think about the Lakers vs the Mavs this year. Do the Mavs still win the series if Kobe hits that three in game 1? We'll obviously never know, but the difference between success and failure in the NBA, especially the playoffs, can be very small.

I love KG. I always fight for him in debates, but he's gotten over-rated here. He has plenty of flaws and its hard to ignore his inability to even win a playoff series in his first 7 years. Yes, he had some bad teams, but he had teams capable of winning a series at least.

So on paper KG should be "easily" a better player. But in reality he wasn't.

[Kblaze8855]

Easily implies things in this case. Your example about a person having a dollar and me having 4 more cents doesn't really fit. That is just factual. Its something that can't be disputed.

I think Dirk being ranked over KG is acceptable. When did it become a fact that Kevin Garnett is a better basketball player than Dirk? That is what the term "easily" implies.

As I said...depends on what you consider better. What you desire out of a player.


Why would you ever compare two players if one of them is without a doubt or easily better than the other.

Which is the reason I think "And its not even close...." is rarely accurate.


My question would be why certain things matter more than others. Why is peak play solely about regular season play in this case? I'm trying to stay on the broad issues, but I disagree that KG was as good in 01 as we he was in 04. I think that would only come from someone that didn't watch KG play much. Its more than the stats.

You say Dirk was never as good as KG those years. I disagree with that. But that really isn't important.

I could simply counter with Dirk having 5 playoff runs better than KG's best by PER. 3 based on win shares.

You could counter with it but its meaningless to me. Win shares? PER?

Its the kind of thing I find usually thrown out by people who dont have anything to say that interests me. Feel free to value...win shares. I just dont care. Dirk has never been able to play basketball as well as KG could at his peak be that the playoffs or regular season. Dirk producing more in the playoffs doesnt make him a better player. It means he could likely always produce more. Long as the production isnt the sole reason you had KG over Dirk to begin with...it shouldnt change anything. Players numbers change too much from situation to situation. Playoff numbers are often much different because stars get leaned on more and the numbers being 3-10 game averages make single big games make a bigger difference.

And if I did care about those number formulas...

KG put up 24/19/5/2/1 one season and 27/16/5/2/2 the next. Then 24/15/5. If win shares or per say Dirk has 5 better runs...thats very...interesting. And ill leave it at that.


I'm all for throwing out outlier years if that is what you want. But I don't like ignoring the entire career.

Your breakdown of Dirk is absurd. He's simply a better offensive player. His mere presence on the floor and what he can do on that end actually matters. Dirk is not just worth the 20 seconds a game he shoots. You have to factor in how much more capable Dirk is with having an offense run through him. Or the fact that he's much better in the clutch. That he's a more versatile scorer....etc.

I understand your point, but boiling down Dirk to just 20 seconds of shooting a game is not fair.

Fair? No. But fact is...there is nothing a player can do during ab asketball game...that Dirk does better than prime KG...that isnt the 20 seconds a game Dirk is shooting a jumper.

For real. From tipoff to the horn blows. KG would literally be better...at every single thing skills wise. Hes a better ball handler, passer out of the post, outlet passing, and off the dribble. He was a better rebounder . A better man to man and help defender. Better at defending anyone you would ask...any position? Any kind of player? hes better. He set better screens(though they are often illegal now). He was more athletic in every way. Dirk is a better shooter...from midrange...and from outside. If Dirk is at the moment...turning to shoot a jumper...hes better at what hes doing than KG would be...at that.

If hes doing ANYTHING else...KG is better at it. That doesnt mean that 20 seconds is useless of course. It just means...he needs to be in a situation for others on his team to give him chances to shine at what he does. Which is similar to KG. KG has always had the skills to be a bigtime scorer. But he doesnt have the desire. Or too unselfish. Whatever you wanna call it. He needed a situation where that the things he wouldnt set out to do much of would get done.

With Kg...thats scorers. he needs scorers around him.

Dirk?

Dirk needs someone to do...everything. He needs people who play basketball...and allow him to shoot. Dirk needs defenders, rebounders, playmakers, the vocal leaders and all. Dirk needs an entire team....that will allow him to shoot jumpers when it gets down to score or lose time.



Again, its not a fact that KG is/was a better player. If it is, then this debate is even more pointless. But again, I think KG was a slightly better player overall. I just don't think the degree to which jacks is saying he was is accurate.

I think its actually you that is not understanding the point of him using the word "easily".....he is using that to imply its absolutely absurd for them to even be compared. That Dirk has no business being in that conversation. And that is just not true for anyone that actually watched them both play.

Id say its absurd to compare a dollar to a dollar and 4 cents. There is no comparison. Even if 4 cents isnt a lot...its factually more...and thus....clearly better. If that isnt how hes looking at it...ok then. I cant speak for him. Thats just my assumption.



Again, you say Dirk was never as good as KG from 01 to 06.....yet in 2002 (not even close to Dirk's peak as a player)....Dirk outplayed KG head to head in the series. Yes, you can come up with a bunch of excuses for KG, but I don't see how you can make that statement given the fact that 02 Dirk isn't nearly as good as 09 Dirk (his peak imo). So you really think 02 KG is definitely better than 09 Dirk? I don't see it. And this is where you get into a flawed place in my opinion.

I love when people preempt reasons being listed for something happening by saying shit like "Come and give the excuses!" as if them saying that isnt making it clear they know the reasons to begin with. I'll assume you have had the discussion about 2002 many times and spare us both the time. But ill say this..

I care as much about that series as I care about Jrich outplaying Dirk when he was the MVP making like 2 shots in game 6 as his 67 win team got beat in the first round. No idea how you combine a cry for longevity and extended great performance to be considered then talk up a 3 game series as if it shows who plays basketball better.

Dirk right after that lost in 5 to Webber and and kings and in the losses he went 8/24, 13/25, 6/15, and 9/28. But of course most dont see that as proving anything....



What does the phrase "as a total player" even mean? Why isn't it just about overall impact? Sometimes there are guys that are greater players that don't have as good of an overall game.

In this case, 02 KG is the more complete player.....but 09 Dirk is the better player. He's more valuable.

In this case...because impact varies so much with the team. A declined KG had hall of famers, role players, and coaches raving about how he changed the Celtics. Guy is monitoring eating habits, getting the team together to bond, leading practices, the emotional drive, defensive center, and somehow still leading scorer in the playoffs on a title team. He sits out...they lose in the second round after one of the best series ever going to 7 to beat a .500 team in the first round. I remember that year them getting lit up for 120 points a few times when he first went out. I watched the Bulls give them like 130 with him on the bench looking pissed off. Regular season I mean. some guy had a list showing that for the minutes he was in the game they were like...an all time elite D. But for one stretch without him they were one of the worst in the league for a while.

So...what do I call impact if that isnt it?

KG is gonna have more impact than Dirk on some teams. Dirk will have more on some teams.

Some teams need Nique more than Scottie Pippen. Scottie wouldnt win as much with some of Niques Hawks teams. And Nique wouldnt have won 55 with the 94 Bulls....

I dont think Dirk could do anything of substance KG didnt do on his teams. I dont think KG alone makes the 03 Mavs good enough on D to get by the spurs.

The rest of the team and situation determines their impact more than just how good they are.

[the_wise_one]

Dont't forget KG's epic defense on Dirk. In that series, he proved that he's a true all time caliber defensive anchor.

Before the first round, KG made an announcement:



The result?

A sweep, Dallas won 3-0 and Dirk dropped the following numers on KG's sorry angel ass: 30 pts /15 rpg in Game 1, 31/15 in Game 2 and 39/17 in Game three, on 52% shooting and 72% 3pt.

LOL bitch azz ***** got pwned.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Bill Simmons:
Dirk Nowitzki: He's already propelled himself into the top 20 and a permanent "Barkley, Malone or Nowitzki?" discussion; he's erased any lingering scars from the 2006 Finals and 2007 Playoffs; and he's clinched "one of the best clutch scorers of his generation" status. But if he wins the title with a bunch of role players? That nudges him up a level; now we'd have to discuss him with Julius Erving, Bob Pettit, John Havlicek, and maybe even Tim Duncan as one of the Greatest Forwards Ever Not Named Larry Bird. However it plays out, he's already the biggest winner from this series. You can't say enough about Dirk Nowitzki.

And offensively Dirk does more than just shoot. He is the one that creates space that KG can't. A Barea/KG pick and roll? Wouldn't work as well as a Dirk/Barea one.

From The Two Man Game.com


Yet before we immediately assume that the Heat will handcuff Barea, consider this: Dirk Nowitzki is Barea’s most common pick-and-roll partner, and he’s a deadlier threat in space than any of the screening bigs Miami has contended with so far. Recovering quickly may not be enough; the combination of Barea’s quickness (and cleverness) and Nowitzki’s ability to score from anywhere on the floor could still open up all kinds of opportunities, and it’s up to the vaunted Heat defense to close off those options.

There are many other examples of the space that he creates in the offense. One of them being the corner 3 that Carlisle used this year incolving Dirk. I'll see if I can dig up the youtube video later that breaks it down.

KG in the low/high post with shooters all around? Wouldn't work as well because KG can't score enough so therefore would not require as many double teams.

Oh, and Dirk is the better ball handler/penetrator. He routinely takes the ball from the mid post area and drives to the paint.

[rocfan1]

As I said...depends on what you consider better. What you desire out of a player.



Which is the reason I think "And its not even close...." is rarely accurate.



You could counter with it but its meaningless to me. Win shares? PER?

Its the kind of thing I find usually thrown out by people who dont have anything to say that interests me. Feel free to value...win shares. I just dont care. Dirk has never been able to play basketball as well as KG could at his peak be that the playoffs or regular season. Dirk producing more in the playoffs doesnt make him a better player. It means he could likely always produce more. Long as the production isnt the sole reason you had KG over Dirk to begin with...it shouldnt change anything. Players numbers change too much from situation to situation. Playoff numbers are often much different because stars get leaned on more and the numbers being 3-10 game averages make single big games make a bigger difference.

And if I did care about those number formulas...

KG put up 24/19/5/2/1 one season and 27/16/5/2/2 the next. Then 24/15/5. If win shares or per say Dirk has 5 better runs...thats very...interesting. And ill leave it at that.



Fair? No. But fact is...there is nothing a player can do during ab asketball game...that Dirk does better than prime KG...that isnt the 20 seconds a game Dirk is shooting a jumper.

For real. From tipoff to the horn blows. KG would literally be better...at every single thing skills wise. Hes a better ball handler, passer out of the post, outlet passing, and off the dribble. He was a better rebounder . A better man to man and help defender. Better at defending anyone you would ask...any position? Any kind of player? hes better. He set better screens(though they are often illegal now). He was more athletic in every way. Dirk is a better shooter...from midrange...and from outside. If Dirk is at the moment...turning to shoot a jumper...hes better at what hes doing than KG would be...at that.

If hes doing ANYTHING else...KG is better at it. That doesnt mean that 20 seconds is useless of course. It just means...he needs to be in a situation for others on his team to give him chances to shine at what he does. Which is similar to KG. KG has always had the skills to be a bigtime scorer. But he doesnt have the desire. Or too unselfish. Whatever you wanna call it. He needed a situation where that the things he wouldnt set out to do much of would get done.

With Kg...thats scorers. he needs scorers around him.

Dirk?

Dirk needs someone to do...everything. He needs people who play basketball...and allow him to shoot. Dirk needs defenders, rebounders, playmakers, the vocal leaders and all. Dirk needs an entire team....that will allow him to shoot jumpers when it gets down to score or lose time.




Id say its absurd to compare a dollar to a dollar and 4 cents. There is no comparison. Even if 4 cents isnt a lot...its factually more...and thus....clearly better. If that isnt how hes looking at it...ok then. I cant speak for him. Thats just my assumption.




I love when people preempt reasons being listed for something happening by saying shit like "Come and give the excuses!" as if them saying that isnt making it clear they know the reasons to begin with. I'll assume you have had the discussion about 2002 many times and spare us both the time. But ill say this..

I care as much about that series as I care about Jrich outplaying Dirk when he was the MVP making like 2 shots in game 6 as his 67 win team got beat in the first round. No idea how you combine a cry for longevity and extended great performance to be considered then talk up a 3 game series as if it shows who plays basketball better.

Dirk right after that lost in 5 to Webber and and kings and in the losses he went 8/24, 13/25, 6/15, and 9/28. But of course most dont see that as proving anything....




In this case...because impact varies so much with the team. A declined KG had hall of famers, role players, and coaches raving about how he changed the Celtics. Guy is monitoring eating habits, getting the team together to bond, leading practices, the emotional drive, defensive center, and somehow still leading scorer in the playoffs on a title team. He sits out...they lose in the second round after one of the best series ever going to 7 to beat a .500 team in the first round. I remember that year them getting lit up for 120 points a few times when he first went out. I watched the Bulls give them like 130 with him on the bench looking pissed off. Regular season I mean. some guy had a list showing that for the minutes he was in the game they were like...an all time elite D. But for one stretch without him they were one of the worst in the league for a while.

So...what do I call impact if that isnt it?

KG is gonna have more impact than Dirk on some teams. Dirk will have more on some teams.

Some teams need Nique more than Scottie Pippen. Scottie wouldnt win as much with some of Niques Hawks teams. And Nique wouldnt have won 55 with the 94 Bulls....

I dont think Dirk could do anything of substance KG didnt do on his teams. I dont think KG alone makes the 03 Mavs good enough on D to get by the spurs.

The rest of the team and situation determines their impact more than just how good they are.

Greatest post ever!!:cheers:

[DMAVS41]

As I said...depends on what you consider better. What you desire out of a player.



Which is the reason I think "And its not even close...." is rarely accurate.



You could counter with it but its meaningless to me. Win shares? PER?

Its the kind of thing I find usually thrown out by people who dont have anything to say that interests me. Feel free to value...win shares. I just dont care. Dirk has never been able to play basketball as well as KG could at his peak be that the playoffs or regular season. Dirk producing more in the playoffs doesnt make him a better player. It means he could likely always produce more. Long as the production isnt the sole reason you had KG over Dirk to begin with...it shouldnt change anything. Players numbers change too much from situation to situation. Playoff numbers are often much different because stars get leaned on more and the numbers being 3-10 game averages make single big games make a bigger difference.

And if I did care about those number formulas...

KG put up 24/19/5/2/1 one season and 27/16/5/2/2 the next. Then 24/15/5. If win shares or per say Dirk has 5 better runs...thats very...interesting. And ill leave it at that.



Fair? No. But fact is...there is nothing a player can do during ab asketball game...that Dirk does better than prime KG...that isnt the 20 seconds a game Dirk is shooting a jumper.

For real. From tipoff to the horn blows. KG would literally be better...at every single thing skills wise. Hes a better ball handler, passer out of the post, outlet passing, and off the dribble. He was a better rebounder . A better man to man and help defender. Better at defending anyone you would ask...any position? Any kind of player? hes better. He set better screens(though they are often illegal now). He was more athletic in every way. Dirk is a better shooter...from midrange...and from outside. If Dirk is at the moment...turning to shoot a jumper...hes better at what hes doing than KG would be...at that.

If hes doing ANYTHING else...KG is better at it. That doesnt mean that 20 seconds is useless of course. It just means...he needs to be in a situation for others on his team to give him chances to shine at what he does. Which is similar to KG. KG has always had the skills to be a bigtime scorer. But he doesnt have the desire. Or too unselfish. Whatever you wanna call it. He needed a situation where that the things he wouldnt set out to do much of would get done.

With Kg...thats scorers. he needs scorers around him.

Dirk?

Dirk needs someone to do...everything. He needs people who play basketball...and allow him to shoot. Dirk needs defenders, rebounders, playmakers, the vocal leaders and all. Dirk needs an entire team....that will allow him to shoot jumpers when it gets down to score or lose time.




Id say its absurd to compare a dollar to a dollar and 4 cents. There is no comparison. Even if 4 cents isnt a lot...its factually more...and thus....clearly better. If that isnt how hes looking at it...ok then. I cant speak for him. Thats just my assumption.




I love when people preempt reasons being listed for something happening by saying shit like "Come and give the excuses!" as if them saying that isnt making it clear they know the reasons to begin with. I'll assume you have had the discussion about 2002 many times and spare us both the time. But ill say this..

I care as much about that series as I care about Jrich outplaying Dirk when he was the MVP making like 2 shots in game 6 as his 67 win team got beat in the first round. No idea how you combine a cry for longevity and extended great performance to be considered then talk up a 3 game series as if it shows who plays basketball better.

Dirk right after that lost in 5 to Webber and and kings and in the losses he went 8/24, 13/25, 6/15, and 9/28. But of course most dont see that as proving anything....




In this case...because impact varies so much with the team. A declined KG had hall of famers, role players, and coaches raving about how he changed the Celtics. Guy is monitoring eating habits, getting the team together to bond, leading practices, the emotional drive, defensive center, and somehow still leading scorer in the playoffs on a title team. He sits out...they lose in the second round after one of the best series ever going to 7 to beat a .500 team in the first round. I remember that year them getting lit up for 120 points a few times when he first went out. I watched the Bulls give them like 130 with him on the bench looking pissed off. Regular season I mean. some guy had a list showing that for the minutes he was in the game they were like...an all time elite D. But for one stretch without him they were one of the worst in the league for a while.

So...what do I call impact if that isnt it?

KG is gonna have more impact than Dirk on some teams. Dirk will have more on some teams.

Some teams need Nique more than Scottie Pippen. Scottie wouldnt win as much with some of Niques Hawks teams. And Nique wouldnt have won 55 with the 94 Bulls....

I dont think Dirk could do anything of substance KG didnt do on his teams. I dont think KG alone makes the 03 Mavs good enough on D to get by the spurs.

The rest of the team and situation determines their impact more than just how good they are.


1. 1 dollar is factually more than 99 cents. Its an absurd example to use when comparing players. You could not be misunderstanding the concept of saying "easily" or "has no case" more. Player comparisons are not factual. If it was as easy as stating a fact....then there would be no debate.

Its a terrible analogy. Sorry.

2. You sit here and claim that Dirk is only better than KG for 20 seconds a game. Total rubbish. How about the last 5 minutes of a tight game. How about ft shooting. How about spacing the floor? How about pick and roll play. That adds up to a lot more than your laughable 20 seconds.

3. Again, you claim that 02 KG was better than any version of Dirk. Yet 02 Dirk got the best of him in a series. Its not even remotely similar to JRich. Dirk and KG play power forward. You and others keep claiming that KG's defense is why they are different. Why didn't KG do anything to stop him? If Dirk is only a scorer, why did he average 16 rebounds per game in that series? Why do you think the regular season is more important than the playoffs. But of course that means nothing to you. It destroys the notion that 02 KG was better than any version of Dirk.....and its easy to destroy that because its not true at all.

You think PER and win shares are worthless. I disagree. I think they value things more properly than you do if you think Dirk can be boiled down to 20 seconds of worth per game.

This is what is so funny about PER. Its far more accurate than people thing because it remains objective. Its so easy to say that KG is the better player because he's more well rounded and plays better defense. In theory KG should then be "easily better" than Dirk. But he never was. Overall, he might not be better at all.

Some day people will learn that certain skills are more valuable than others. They'll learn that while KG is a great player....he's over-rated here. They'll learn the close games are inevitable and without a guy like Paul Pierce at his side to close games, a KG led team would just not win. Much like a Dirk led team without a quality defensive center like Chandler would never win.

That is the problem I guess. Stating opinion as fact. LOL...its not a fact. And really if you go by most of the objective measures....Dirk comes out ahead.

See, if you actually watched KG play in 01 or 02....or actually watched Dirk play post 06...you would never say things like:

"01 and 02 KG are better than any version of Dirk"

LOL. 06 and 07 regular season Dirk absolutely shits on 02 KG in terms of impact. To use your logic and others.....and he does it "easily".....

Nobody that really watched them both play would ever take 02 KG over 06 Dirk. It wouldn't happen.

There are things about the game of basketball that you clearly aren't accounting for. You can ignore whatever you want....doesn't make it go away.

So I guess you either really over-rate KG or really under-rate Dirk. I don't know which it is. I do know that taking 01 and 02 KG over 06 Dirk or 09 Dirk is a joke. I don't know where your issue lies, but you are off on something if you truly believe that.

The notion that 01 KG could have led his team by the 06 Spurs and win a road game 7 against that team that only lost 1 series in three years is just laughable. Good luck on that one.

[Kblaze8855]

1. 1 dollar is factually more than 99 cents. Its an absurd example to use when comparing players. You could not be misunderstanding the concept of saying "easily" or "has no case" more. Player comparisons are not factual. If it was as easy as stating a fact....then there would be no debate.

Its a terrible analogy. Sorry.

As I said you would have to ask him to be sure. Im saying that one being clearly better...thus...inarguable...might make someone say its easily better. Even if the margin isnt large. Just beyond dispute.



2. You sit here and claim that Dirk is only better than KG for 20 seconds a game. Total rubbish. How about the last 5 minutes of a tight game. How about ft shooting. How about spacing the floor? How about pick and roll play. That adds up to a lot more than your laughable 20 seconds.

During that 5 minutes...KG is still better at everything but shooting. If Dirk shoots 5 times....hes better for that 5-10 seconds. FT...shooting. yes. Its an aspect of shooting. he is better. spacing? Yes. Because he may shoot. Pick and roll? If he shoots after it...yes. ITs all shooting. Everything Dirk is...is shooting. Dirk minus a jumper is out of the NBA. Just how it is. Kg minus shooting plays 15 years anyway.


3. Again, you claim that 02 KG was better than any version of Dirk. Yet 02 Dirk got the best of him in a series. Its not even remotely similar to JRich. Dirk and KG play power forward. You and others keep claiming that KG's defense is why they are different. Why didn't KG do anything to stop him? If Dirk is only a scorer, why did he average 16 rebounds per game in that series? Why do you think the regular season is more important than the playoffs. But of course that means nothing to you. It destroys the notion that 02 KG was better than any version of Dirk.....and its easy to destroy that because its not true at all.

Dirk averaged 16 rebounds because its a 3 game series and big averages are easier over fewer games. The same reason Kg averaged 24/19/5. Same reason Hakeem put up like 38/18 one playoffs. And Dirk didnt defend KG I wanna say Raef did. Dirk didnt defend Jrich. But KG defended Dirk...and Jrich defended Dirk along with Jackson. I dont think either situation shows who plays the best ball. Totally different situation, asked to do different things, with different teammates...over 3 games?


You think PER and win shares are worthless. I disagree. I think they value things more properly than you do if you think Dirk can be boiled down to 20 seconds of worth per game.


20 seconds of worth? No. 20 seconds a game...where he is better at what hes doing than KG could be? Yea...about that. More if you add time shooting FTs. shooting in general.


This is what is so funny about PER. Its far more accurate than people thing because it remains objective. Its so easy to say that KG is the better player because he's more well rounded and plays better defense. In theory KG should then be "easily better" than Dirk. But he never was. Overall, he might not be better at all.

Whats so funny about PER should be obvious if you read over a list of its all time rankings. PER cant factor in defense at all.


Some day people will learn that certain skills are more valuable than others. They'll learn that while KG is a great player....he's over-rated here. They'll learn the close games are inevitable and without a guy like Paul Pierce at his side to close games, a KG led team would just not win. Much like a Dirk led team without a quality defensive center like Chandler would never win.

That is the problem I guess. Stating opinion as fact. LOL...its not a fact. And really if you go by most of the objective measures....Dirk comes out ahead.

As ive said many times...in basketball...more often than not...if you can prove it its inaccurate. Because you can only prove what can be measured.


See, if you actually watched KG play in 01 or 02....or actually watched Dirk play post 06...you would never say things like:

"01 and 02 KG are better than any version of Dirk"

LOL. 06 and 07 regular season Dirk absolutely shits on 02 KG in terms of impact. To use your logic and others.....and he does it "easily".....

Nobody that really watched them both play would ever take 02 KG over 06 Dirk. It wouldn't happen.


So...where was I in 02 and 06?

A lifelong fan...stopped watching? I was here arguing KG and Duncan in 2002. I was here every moment of every season for 10 years. Ive missed like 2 televised playoff games since 1986(Kings/mavs when it was like 155 to 153 and game 7 Heat/Pistons due to a power outage that didnt end till 5 minutes left). I am not who "You dont watch..." aplies to. I watched every sumer league game on tv or streamed for years. I have tapes of kwame brown preseason games. I am not one who misses players like Kg and Dirk.


There are things about the game of basketball that you clearly aren't accounting for. You can ignore whatever you want....doesn't make it go away.

You can ignore that Dirk is out of the NBA if he couldnt shoot. Doesnt make it untrue.

Nobody is saying Dirk isnt great. But hes great...because he shoots. The entirety of his game depends on it. If he couldnt...he isnt playing. Not a good enough rebounder, defender, passer, or anything else...to justify PT on its own...if he cant shoot.

Dirk is a player totally without a place in the NBA if he isnt moving his wrist to shoot the ball int othe basket. He isnt alone. He isnt alone among all time greats either.

But its just how it is. Dirk with Eric snows shot....does not get off the bench.

KG with Eric snows shot....is still a 7 footer with swingman handles, elite rebounding, all time great bigman passing, and the ability to defend anyone from Tmac to Duncan. remove shooting/scoring KG is still a starter and perhaps a star of a Rodman variety. Remove shooting/scoring you never heard dirks name.

Dirk is better than KG at everything that relies on his shooting ability. He is factually inferior...at everything else.

[DMAVS41]

As I said...depends on what you consider better. What you desire out of a player.



Which is the reason I think "And its not even close...." is rarely accurate.



You could counter with it but its meaningless to me. Win shares? PER?

Its the kind of thing I find usually thrown out by people who dont have anything to say that interests me. Feel free to value...win shares. I just dont care. Dirk has never been able to play basketball as well as KG could at his peak be that the playoffs or regular season. Dirk producing more in the playoffs doesnt make him a better player. It means he could likely always produce more. Long as the production isnt the sole reason you had KG over Dirk to begin with...it shouldnt change anything. Players numbers change too much from situation to situation. Playoff numbers are often much different because stars get leaned on more and the numbers being 3-10 game averages make single big games make a bigger difference.

And if I did care about those number formulas...

KG put up 24/19/5/2/1 one season and 27/16/5/2/2 the next. Then 24/15/5. If win shares or per say Dirk has 5 better runs...thats very...interesting. And ill leave it at that.



Fair? No. But fact is...there is nothing a player can do during ab asketball game...that Dirk does better than prime KG...that isnt the 20 seconds a game Dirk is shooting a jumper.

For real. From tipoff to the horn blows. KG would literally be better...at every single thing skills wise. Hes a better ball handler, passer out of the post, outlet passing, and off the dribble. He was a better rebounder . A better man to man and help defender. Better at defending anyone you would ask...any position? Any kind of player? hes better. He set better screens(though they are often illegal now). He was more athletic in every way. Dirk is a better shooter...from midrange...and from outside. If Dirk is at the moment...turning to shoot a jumper...hes better at what hes doing than KG would be...at that.

If hes doing ANYTHING else...KG is better at it. That doesnt mean that 20 seconds is useless of course. It just means...he needs to be in a situation for others on his team to give him chances to shine at what he does. Which is similar to KG. KG has always had the skills to be a bigtime scorer. But he doesnt have the desire. Or too unselfish. Whatever you wanna call it. He needed a situation where that the things he wouldnt set out to do much of would get done.

With Kg...thats scorers. he needs scorers around him.

Dirk?

Dirk needs someone to do...everything. He needs people who play basketball...and allow him to shoot. Dirk needs defenders, rebounders, playmakers, the vocal leaders and all. Dirk needs an entire team....that will allow him to shoot jumpers when it gets down to score or lose time.




Id say its absurd to compare a dollar to a dollar and 4 cents. There is no comparison. Even if 4 cents isnt a lot...its factually more...and thus....clearly better. If that isnt how hes looking at it...ok then. I cant speak for him. Thats just my assumption.




I love when people preempt reasons being listed for something happening by saying shit like "Come and give the excuses!" as if them saying that isnt making it clear they know the reasons to begin with. I'll assume you have had the discussion about 2002 many times and spare us both the time. But ill say this..

I care as much about that series as I care about Jrich outplaying Dirk when he was the MVP making like 2 shots in game 6 as his 67 win team got beat in the first round. No idea how you combine a cry for longevity and extended great performance to be considered then talk up a 3 game series as if it shows who plays basketball better.

Dirk right after that lost in 5 to Webber and and kings and in the losses he went 8/24, 13/25, 6/15, and 9/28. But of course most dont see that as proving anything....




In this case...because impact varies so much with the team. A declined KG had hall of famers, role players, and coaches raving about how he changed the Celtics. Guy is monitoring eating habits, getting the team together to bond, leading practices, the emotional drive, defensive center, and somehow still leading scorer in the playoffs on a title team. He sits out...they lose in the second round after one of the best series ever going to 7 to beat a .500 team in the first round. I remember that year them getting lit up for 120 points a few times when he first went out. I watched the Bulls give them like 130 with him on the bench looking pissed off. Regular season I mean. some guy had a list showing that for the minutes he was in the game they were like...an all time elite D. But for one stretch without him they were one of the worst in the league for a while.

So...what do I call impact if that isnt it?

KG is gonna have more impact than Dirk on some teams. Dirk will have more on some teams.

Some teams need Nique more than Scottie Pippen. Scottie wouldnt win as much with some of Niques Hawks teams. And Nique wouldnt have won 55 with the 94 Bulls....

I dont think Dirk could do anything of substance KG didnt do on his teams. I dont think KG alone makes the 03 Mavs good enough on D to get by the spurs.

The rest of the team and situation determines their impact more than just how good they are.

What do you mean? Actually, that is kind of my point. 02 Webber was a better player than 02 Dirk in my opinion. You act like I'm saying KG isn't better than Dirk because of one series.

I'm not saying that. I'm just destroying your notion that 02 KG is better than every version of Dirk. Its not true.

And if we go by stats, KG was on teams that did need him to do "everything"

And I also love how conveniently ignore Dirk's rebounding. So Dirk needs help on the boards but KG doesn't. Right?

Dirk - 10.4 rebounds per game in the playoffs.
KG - 11.1 rebounds per game in the playoffs.

Yep, those .7 more rebounds per game warrant your statement. Did you ever actually watch Dirk play? Did you watch him in 06 when he put up 27/12/3.....He was a beast on the boards. Routinely getting over 12 a game. Often going for 15 or more.

But yea....he makes no impact on rebounding. Those 49 minutes he played in game 7 against the Spurs and got 15 rebounds (equaling Duncan) had no impact on the game. The other 49 minutes and 14 seconds he played were worthless. He didn't rebound. He didn't space the floor. He didn't play unselfishly. He didn't draw attention on pick and rolls. Just 20 seconds of shooting.

And you want to be taken seriously?

[DMAVS41]

As I said you would have to ask him to be sure. Im saying that one being clearly better...thus...inarguable...might make someone say its easily better. Even if the margin isnt large. Just beyond dispute.




During that 5 minutes...KG is still better at everything but shooting. If Dirk shoots 5 times....hes better for that 5-10 seconds. FT...shooting. yes. Its an aspect of shooting. he is better. spacing? Yes. Because he may shoot. Pick and roll? If he shoots after it...yes. ITs all shooting. Everything Dirk is...is shooting. Dirk minus a jumper is out of the NBA. Just how it is. Kg minus shooting plays 15 years anyway.



Dirk averaged 16 rebounds because its a 3 game series and big averages are easier over fewer games. The same reason Kg averaged 24/19/5. Same reason Hakeem put up like 38/18 one playoffs. And Dirk didnt defend KG I wanna say Raef did. Dirk didnt defend Jrich. But KG defended Dirk...and Jrich defended Dirk along with Jackson. I dont think either situation shows who plays the best ball. Totally different situation, asked to do different things, with different teammates...over 3 games?




20 seconds of worth? No. 20 seconds a game...where he is better at what hes doing than KG could be? Yea...about that. More if you add time shooting FTs. shooting in general.



Whats so funny about PER should be obvious if you read over a list of its all time rankings. PER cant factor in defense at all.



As ive said many times...in basketball...more often than not...if you can prove it its inaccurate. Because you can only prove what can be measured.



So...where was I in 02 and 06?

A lifelong fan...stopped watching? I was here arguing KG and Duncan in 2002. I was here every moment of every season for 10 years. Ive missed like 2 televised playoff games since 1986(Kings/mavs when it was like 155 to 153 and game 7 Heat/Pistons due to a power outage that didnt end till 5 minutes left). I am not who "You dont watch..." aplies to. I watched every sumer league game on tv or streamed for years. I have tapes of kwame brown preseason games. I am not one who misses players like Kg and Dirk.



You can ignore that Dirk is out of the NBA if he couldnt shoot. Doesnt make it untrue.

Nobody is saying Dirk isnt great. But hes great...because he shoots. The entirety of his game depends on it. If he couldnt...he isnt playing. Not a good enough rebounder, defender, passer, or anything else...to justify PT on its own...if he cant shoot.

Dirk is a player totally without a place in the NBA if he isnt moving his wrist to shoot the ball int othe basket. He isnt alone. He isnt alone among all time greats either.

But its just how it is. Dirk with Eric snows shot....does not get off the bench.

KG with Eric snows shot....is still a 7 footer with swingman handles, elite rebounding, all time great bigman passing, and the ability to defend anyone from Tmac to Duncan. remove shooting/scoring KG is still a starter and perhaps a star of a Rodman variety. Remove shooting/scoring you never heard dirks name.

Dirk is better than KG at everything that relies on his shooting ability. He is factually inferior...at everything else.


Well, you clearly ignored something if you really think 02 KG is better than any version of Dirk.

Some things are more valuable than others. Kevin Garnett is pretty much better than Magic Johnson at everything but passing. Defense? Not even remotely close. Scoring? KG scores more points. Rebounding? KG again. Take away Magic's passing and KG is better at every area of the game. Does that make KG the better player? Magic played almost no defense. None.

Do you rank Magic over KG? Do you not see how absurd it is to break players down like that? Some of the things Magic did are simply of more value than KG's more complete play with defense.

Do you not realize how absurd the notion of removing Dirk's scoring. Its half the ****ing game.....and Dirk's scoring/shooting is more valuable than the defense/rebounding of a guy like Ben Wallace. So its value is even more than that half of the game.

What an absurd notion. Take away Magic's vision/passing and he's probably not a top 100 player of all time. What does that prove?

[Kblaze8855]

Well, you clearly ignored something if you really think 02 KG is better than any version of Dirk.

Some things are more valuable than others. Kevin Garnett is pretty much better than Magic Johnson at everything but passing. Defense? Not even remotely close. Scoring? KG scores more points. Rebounding? KG again. Take away Magic's passing and KG is better at every area of the game. Does that make KG the better player? Magic played almost no defense. None.

Do you rank Magic over KG? Do you not see how absurd it is to break players down like that? Some of the things Magic did are simply of more value than KG's more complete play with defense.

Do you not realize how absurd the notion of removing Dirk's scoring. Its half the ****ing game.....and Dirk's scoring/shooting is more valuable than the defense/rebounding of a guy like Ben Wallace. So its value is even more than that half of the game.

What an absurd notion. Take away Magic's vision/passing and he's probably not a top 100 player of all time. What does that prove?

Kg scored more than Magics peak season what...once? 04? Magic was a much better scorer than his numbers because scoring wasnt his job.

And as an all around player of course KG is better than Magic.

As an all around player Boris Diaw is better than Shaq.

You act as if my thinking(well...knowing) that KG was better than Dirk at the extreme vast majority of the game means I think KG is 20 levels beyond him.

I picked Dirk for MVP...not one year...but 2. This is what I said of him not long ago:


Some of those shots were so well defended. That has to be depressing to watch film of. They were damn near inside his jersey and he knocks it down over and over and over as if they arent even there. One of the most impressive takeovers ive ever seen. Most impressed ive been with Dirk his entire career aside from the end of 06 Spurs series.

Play like that grabs respect. Insists on it. You cant love basketball land not respect the balls it takes to take those shots and the skill it takes to make them.

IVe never downplayed his ability to shoot. Hes at such a level that he makes defense irrelevant in most one on one situations. He doesnt even attempt to get open. He is a weapon like few ever...in that..he needs nothing to go right to get a good shot. Man all over him, off the wrong foot, clock winding down 19 feet away....its a walk in the park for him.

But unlike many players we are discussing...he is literally out of the game without his biggest strength. Magic without passing...is still a top flight ball handler and scorer for his position(the 3). Magic could have scored 25 a game pretty easily. Hes also led the league in steals and rebounding his ass off. Magic is a star or at least a very good player ifhe cant pass.

KG if he cant play defense is still a better scorer and rebounder than many all stars who made it due to those abilities.

Look at Pippen...no defense...hes still a 20ppg scorer who is athletic as hell and a great playmaker.

Kidd. Cant pass? Hes still a guy who put up 19 a game at one point. He can still go coast to coast like few ever. He still defends his ass off in his prime. He still rebounds like few guards. Worst case...he has a long career as a Lindsey Hunter type pesky defender who is smart and always has a place in the league till he develops a good 3 pointer like he has.



Ben Wallace...no D....rebounding alone wont keep him around. Look at Rodman when he stopped defending and just worried about rebounds. Glen Rice...cant shoot...cant justify PT. Dirk? He cant shoot...hes out of the NBA. He rebounds well(some years) because of the 35-40 minutes his shooting justifies. Hes 7 feet+. Hes gonna get 8-9 boards given 40 minutes. But he doesnt even do that now. HEs a better defender than hes ever gonna get credit for. Good enough to justify playing over the dozens and dozens of better defensive bigmen if not for shooting? No. Coursen ot. hes a better passer than his numbers show. Good enough that his passing is why he plays? Hell no. Few bigmen ever have been. Hes mobile for his size. But hes nothing Taj Gibson isnt...if he cant shoot. Only Taj rebounds and plays man to man D.

Dirk...no jumper. Out of the game.

Its not the same as Magic. Magic minus any aspect of his game is still a star. If he cant score hes a rich mans Rondo. If he cant pass hes a few time all star as a scorer.

KG...is a star minus anything you remove from his game. If not a star hes sure as hell a long career good player.

Dirk minus the one exceptional skill he has does not have a place in the NBA.

I cant ignore that. Has nothing to do with him personally. Guy like Ai?

Cant score? Cant justify PT. Hes still a speed demon and in the passing lanes. But hes getting lit up man to man and not giving it back?

Get him out of there.

Dirk is entirely dependant on a jumper to play basketball.

KG does everything. I almost always lean defense first. And in this case...its defense first...plus better ball handling and playmaking AND being a great scorer himself?

Just dont see the case for Dirk. Not as ap layer.

Greatness? Sure. But greatness and ability are not the same thing. Whole other discussion.

[DMAVS41]

Kg scored more than Magics peak season what...once? 04? Magic was a much better scorer than his numbers because scoring wasnt his job.

And as an all around player of course KG is better than Magic.

As an all around player Boris Diaw is better than Shaq.

You act as if my thinking(well...knowing) that KG was better than Dirk at the extreme vast majority of the game means I think KG is 20 levels beyond him.

I picked Dirk for MVP...not one year...but 2. This is what I said of him not long ago:



IVe never downplayed his ability to shoot. Hes at such a level that he makes defense irrelevant in most one on one situations. He doesnt even attempt to get open. He is a weapon like few ever...in that..he needs nothing to go right to get a good shot. Man all over him, off the wrong foot, clock winding down 19 feet away....its a walk in the park for him.

But unlike many players we are discussing...he is literally out of the game without his biggest strength. Magic without passing...is still a top flight ball handler and scorer for his position(the 3). Magic could have scored 25 a game pretty easily. Hes also led the league in steals and rebounding his ass off. Magic is a star or at least a very good player ifhe cant pass.

KG if he cant play defense is still a better scorer and rebounder than many all stars who made it due to those abilities.

Look at Pippen...no defense...hes still a 20ppg scorer who is athletic as hell and a great playmaker.

Kidd. Cant pass? Hes still a guy who put up 19 a game at one point. He can still go coast to coast like few ever. He still defends his ass off in his prime. He still rebounds like few guards. Worst case...he has a long career as a Lindsey Hunter type pesky defender who is smart and always has a place in the league till he develops a good 3 pointer like he has.



Ben Wallace...no D....rebounding alone wont keep him around. Look at Rodman when he stopped defending and just worried about rebounds. Glen Rice...cant shoot...cant justify PT. Dirk? He cant shoot...hes out of the NBA. He rebounds well(some years) because of the 35-40 minutes his shooting justifies. Hes 7 feet+. Hes gonna get 8-9 boards given 40 minutes. But he doesnt even do that now. HEs a better defender than hes ever gonna get credit for. Good enough to justify playing over the dozens and dozens of better defensive bigmen if not for shooting? No. Coursen ot. hes a better passer than his numbers show. Good enough that his passing is why he plays? Hell no. Few bigmen ever have been. Hes mobile for his size. But hes nothing Taj Gibson isnt...if he cant shoot. Only Taj rebounds and plays man to man D.

Dirk...no jumper. Out of the game.

Its not the same as Magic. Magic minus any aspect of his game is still a star. If he cant score hes a rich mans Rondo. If he cant pass hes a few time all star as a scorer.

KG...is a star minus anything you remove from his game. If not a star hes sure as hell a long career good player.

Dirk minus the one exceptional skill he has does not have a place in the NBA.

I cant ignore that. Has nothing to do with him personally. Guy like Ai?

Cant score? Cant justify PT. Hes still a speed demon and in the passing lanes. But hes getting lit up man to man and not giving it back?

Get him out of there.

Dirk is entirely dependant on a jumper to play basketball.

KG does everything. I almost always lean defense first. And in this case...its defense first...plus better ball handling and playmaking AND being a great scorer himself?

Just dont see the case for Dirk. Not as ap layer.

Greatness? Sure. But greatness and ability are not the same thing. Whole other discussion.


This is where we disagree. I think removing the best attribute of a player when comparing them makes no sense. Dirk is great because what he provides with his shooting and scoring. It allows him to play unselfishly and create scoring opportunities just by being on the court.

You favor a more complete player. That is fine. I understand that. Again, I have KG over Dirk as a player. Slightly, but I have no issue with it.

Going back to your example about the dollar and the dollar and 4 cents. The person with the extra 4 cents has more money. Sure. Does he have a lot more money. Nope. Does that extra 4 percent make the gap "big"....nope. Having less than 4% more money than someone is almost irrelevant.

If you want to say that KG is better than Dirk and its a fact. So be it. Its your opinion.

If you want to say you favor KG because he had a higher peak. So be it.

I don't have an issue with any of that. I have an issue with people saying "its not close"....and I have an issue with you breaking down Dirk to only being valuable for 20 seconds a game. I have an issue with you ignoring Dirk's rebounding.

And I have an issue with you trying to remove the best and most valuable quality and player can have from Dirk to try and devalue him as a player.

Guess what, great scoring, shooting, and clutch play is the most valuable package a player can have. That is what wins. I'll take that over defense every single time. Because I know KG could never do what Dirk did in the playoffs this year. He couldn't consistently come through like that. I don't see how he wins the title.

But I could see Dirk winning the title on the 08 Celtics. That shooting/scoring that Dirk provides is of more value than you give it credit for.

It just doesn't make sense to think of Dirk without his best quality. It don't see the relevance. That never happened anyway, and its not how basketball works.

Yes, Dirk is mainly tied to shooting/scoring/clutch play. Lucky for him those happen to be by far the most important qualities a player can have when they are as great as what Dirk brings.

[NugzHeat3]

[/B]

Like when KG dominated Dirk in the playoffs in 02. Man, KG just killed Dirk in that series. It was just horrible for Dirk. He couldn't do anything.
I would think a Mavs fan would know what happened in that series.

Nelson had Najera and LaFrentz on KG and KG wasn't even guarding IRK.

The Mavs were stacked with offensive talent and the Wolves were trash defensively besides KG so KG had to help out his guys.

It's why Saunders would always play a match up zone.

[DMAVS41]

I would think a Mavs fan would know what happened in that series.

Nelson had Najera and LaFrentz on KG and KG wasn't even guarding IRK.

The Mavs were stacked with offensive talent so KG had to help out his guys.

It's why Saunders would always play a match up zone.

Sure. And why not make other guys beat them? Especially after Dirk went off the way he did?

Its not like KG got no help. Billups was really good in that series. But that wasn't really the point. Just watching that series it was clear that Dirk was the best player on the floor. And so if 02 Dirk can best 02 KG in the playoffs.....I don't see the logic in claiming 02 KG is superior to every version of Dirk. Because 02 Dirk is far from peak Dirk.

[NugzHeat3]

Sure. And why not make other guys beat them? Especially after Dirk went off the way he did?

Its not like KG got no help. Billups was really good in that series. But that wasn't really the point. Just watching that series it was clear that Dirk was the best player on the floor. And so if 02 Dirk can best 02 KG in the playoffs.....I don't see the logic in claiming 02 KG is superior to every version of Dirk. Because 02 Dirk is far from peak Dirk.
Hard not to be good when matched up with Steve Nash. :oldlol:

Lot of points IRK got that series were from wide open jumpers created by his man helping off of him.

IRK didn't go off the same way he went off against the Thunder per say.

It's different although the stats won't show you that.

[Kblaze8855]

I didnt read all that(yet...dont take that as a "Didnt read!" thing. Itsj ustn ot what I came back in here for..ill read it later). But I saw something I think needs clearing up...

If I were judging Dirk by what he would be minus his jumper I wouldnt think he was a great player would I? I know it doesnt matter what a guy would be minus what he does best. Which is why ive always said Dirk is great...a legend...hall of famer...worthy MVP...all that. What you cant do doesnt matter as much as what you do. Which is why Dirk is great.

But what you cant do matters when the issue is who I want. Who I consider better. And Dirk just cant play the extreme vast majority of the game on KGs level. And KG in his prime was one of the best scorers in the league. There is a big gap in their total game...and a much smaller one in their scoring. So I consider Kg the better player. Now...what I actually came in here to say...


I was walking around thinking about it....

Im not sure KG is a better total player than Magic Johnson. Magic is arguably better than KG at everything on offense other than midrangej umper. In his prime he was a better 3 point shooter and arguably as reliable or morei n the post. Magic was a problem with his back to the basket inside 12 feet. He was a better ball handler. A better passer by an epic degree. He was a good rebounder as well.

KG murders him as an on the ball and team defender. But Magic was flat out average on D. This idea that Magic was always eaten alive on D is nothing but a myth. Magic was eaten alive when he got stuck on guysl ike Tim Hardaway and KJ who at 6'9'' he shouldnt have been expected to guard anyway. Magic on his usual man(a swingman to a 4) was nothing to point out. He was invisible on D like most players are. Not getting lit up enough to nothing not making enough plays to stand out. MAgic got his steals but man to man he wasnt good or bad on guys his size.

KG kills him on that end...but Magic as a point had a greater responsibility. KG leads his defense like few ive seen. Magic might be the greatest total offensive player of all time. I wouldnt say so. Id put him in the argument. But ive heard it said by people I wouldnt call idiots.

Arguably GOAT offense plus average defense....vs all time elite total D....plus star offense? Looks like it leans KGs way but...eh. Being a point is so much mroe than passing and shooting. Magic ran his offense and did so at a level most HOF points had to envy.

Point guards are hard to rank as total players vs non points because their are judged by things no other position has to do. Setting pace...calling plays...keeping egos in check. Id have to put Magic over KG at all of those skills but...how do I knock a power forward for not setting pace or knowing when his teammates should repost and directing them to do so?

Im gonna have to take back the KG>magic as a total player claim till I think of a way to account for the differences in what they are expected to do.

[KingBeasley08]

Karl
Garnett
Barkely





Dirk


and its not even close

[tpols]

You can ignore that Dirk is out of the NBA if he couldnt shoot. Doesnt make it untrue.

I believe KG is greater than Dirk, but your reasoning here is a little weird.

All Dirk does better than KG is shoot the basketball.. correct. But it's by worlds and worlds of difference. A player that impacts the game in a huge way with one dimension isn't definitively worse than a player who impacts the game in a huge way by putting in lesser impacts in every other area.

KG is great because of his overall game.. Offensively, KG can pass, dribble, finish, and create better than Dirk. So.. why is he not the better offensive player? Because Dirk's impact on the game with only his shooting is much better than KG's impact with his dribbling, passing, finishing, and creating~because he does all of these things to a much lesser degree successfuly, even combined, than Dirk does with his shooting.

[Pointguard]

Its the kind of thing I find usually thrown out by people who dont have anything to say that interests me. Feel free to value...win shares. I just dont care. Dirk has never been able to play basketball as well as KG could at his peak be that the playoffs or regular season. Dirk producing more in the playoffs doesnt make him a better player. It means he could likely always produce more. Long as the production isnt the sole reason you had KG over Dirk to begin with...it shouldnt change anything. Players numbers change too much from situation to situation. Playoff numbers are often much different because stars get leaned on more and the numbers being 3-10 game averages make single big games make a bigger difference.

KG put up 24/19/5/2/1 one season and 27/16/5/2/2 the next. Then 24/15/5. If win shares or per say Dirk has 5 better runs...thats very...interesting. And ill leave it at that.

Fair? No. But fact is...there is nothing a player can do during ab asketball game...that Dirk does better than prime KG...that isnt the 20 seconds a game Dirk is shooting a jumper.

For real. From tipoff to the horn blows. KG would literally be better...at every single thing skills wise. Hes a better ball handler, passer out of the post, outlet passing, and off the dribble. He was a better rebounder . A better man to man and help defender. Better at defending anyone you would ask...any position? Any kind of player? hes better. He set better screens(though they are often illegal now). He was more athletic in every way. Dirk is a better shooter...from midrange...and from outside. If Dirk is at the moment...turning to shoot a jumper...hes better at what hes doing than KG would be...at that.

If hes doing ANYTHING else...KG is better at it. That doesnt mean that 20 seconds is useless of course. It just means...he needs to be in a situation for others on his team to give him chances to shine at what he does. Which is similar to KG. KG has always had the skills to be a bigtime scorer. But he doesnt have the desire. Or too unselfish. Whatever you wanna call it. He needed a situation where that the things he wouldnt set out to do much of would get done.

With Kg...thats scorers. he needs scorers around him.

Dirk?

Dirk needs someone to do...everything. He needs people who play basketball...and allow him to shoot. Dirk needs defenders, rebounders, playmakers, the vocal leaders and all. Dirk needs an entire team....that will allow him to shoot jumpers when it gets down to score or lose time.

I love when people preempt reasons being listed for something happening by saying shit like "Come and give the excuses!" as if them saying that isnt making it clear they know the reasons to begin with. I'll assume you have had the discussion about 2002 many times and spare us both the time. But ill say this..

I care as much about that series as I care about Jrich outplaying Dirk when he was the MVP making like 2 shots in game 6 as his 67 win team got beat in the first round. No idea how you combine a cry for longevity and extended great performance to be considered then talk up a 3 game series as if it shows who plays basketball better.

Dirk right after that lost in 5 to Webber and and kings and in the losses he went 8/24, 13/25, 6/15, and 9/28. But of course most dont see that as proving anything....

In this case...because impact varies so much with the team. A declined KG had hall of famers, role players, and coaches raving about how he changed the Celtics. Guy is monitoring eating habits, getting the team together to bond, leading practices, the emotional drive, defensive center, and somehow still leading scorer in the playoffs on a title team. He sits out...they lose in the second round after one of the best series ever going to 7 to beat a .500 team in the first round. I remember that year them getting lit up for 120 points a few times when he first went out. I watched the Bulls give them like 130 with him on the bench looking pissed off. Regular season I mean. some guy had a list showing that for the minutes he was in the game they were like...an all time elite D. But for one stretch without him they were one of the worst in the league for a while.

So...what do I call impact if that isnt it?

KG is gonna have more impact than Dirk on some teams. Dirk will have more on some teams.

Some teams need Nique more than Scottie Pippen. Scottie wouldnt win as much with some of Niques Hawks teams. And Nique wouldnt have won 55 with the 94 Bulls....

The rest of the team and situation determines their impact more than just how good they are.

Wow, that was like watching one of your videos! Great Post!

[Kblaze8855]

I believe KG is greater than Dirk, but your reasoning here is a little weird.

All Dirk does better than KG is shoot the basketball.. correct. But it's by worlds and worlds of difference. A player that impacts the game in a huge way with one dimension isn't definitively worse than a player who impacts the game in a huge way by putting in lesser impacts in every other area.

KG is great because of his overall game.. Offensively, KG can pass, dribble, finish, and create better than Dirk. So.. why is he not the better offensive player? Because Dirk's impact on the game with only his shooting is much better than KG's impact with his dribbling, passing, finishing, and creating~because he does all of these things to a much lesser degree successfuly, even combined, than Dirk does with his shooting.

Why is he not the better offensive player?

That comes down to a few things. But mostly the issue is...if offense is offensive ability...or if offense is scoring personally.

Dirk is a greater offensive threat.

But its not much greater. Not nearly by the difference in their shooting ability. Though I guess "much" is hard to define. Its not like Dirk has been a Jordan type taking over and scoring at will year after year after year. This is a guy who put up 20 points on 38% shooting vs a team Carlos Boozer destroyed. Couple years ago he put up 24 on 48% shooting won 51 games and went out in the first round in 5 games. This year he averaged what? 23 a game or so? One year he did 21 or 22. Been under 25 a few times. Hes a knockdown shooter who can barely be defended...but a bigtime "Go win it for us" takeover and go hard scorer he has not been on a regular basis. People talk up him scoring 25 or 26 a game in the playoffs as if thats a lot for a player on his level. An MVP bigman whos entire NBA life depends on scoring? He should be scoring 25+ a game in the playoffs.

Dirk lost in the playoffs what...10 years in a row? He was usually showing up and getting his numbers but its not like he was going down dropping 40ppg. Hes had big playoff games lately where he goes 4-10. got knocked out going 8-21. Got knocked out going 2-13 for 11 points. Went 2-14 in the finals game afeter that collapse vs the Heat in 06.

Hes a great great scorer. But an always on hide the wome nand children unstoppable beast he has not been. Its not like...KG as a scorer vs Shaq or even Kobe in his prime.

KG is a great offensive player. Dirk is greater. But itsn ot like one is a 4 and the other a 9. If Shaq/Jordan/Bird/Magic types are 10s on offense...

Dirk is what? 8? With KG a....7?

Dirk is a great scorer. But 3 weeks of hot shooting dont change that fact that hes been beaten time and time again while proving either to not be a true elite scorer...or that he didnt have the desire to display it.

What Dirk is...is a true elite shooter. A shooter with few peers in all history.

But hes not some al ltime dominant offensive player. Hes not all that far ahead as an offensive player. Might be another thing id use the dollar or a dollar and change analogy.

Dirk went out without a fight too many times to act like he can just takeover with his shooting whenever he wants to. People will say "He had 29 points!" or something and its like...

And? Hes a superstar MVP bigman who does nothing at a high level but score. He puts up 24 or 25 a game. Why is him having 29 impressive? By his standards?

Dirk has always held back his scoring. Its one reason I dont think the gap between he and KG as offensive players is as wide as it could be.

Both of them could score a lot more than they have. And for all the claims of Dirks clutchness(some...by me) hes had some straight up crushing defeats in his day.

Hes never just been a lock to take over the game. Or to even try. Hes a little more passive at times than id like. Ive seen too many 4-14 or 9 of 19 games his team lost when it counted to buy him as that. KG goes 8-19 and gets knocked out its him not being a big moment player. Dirk does it its...what?

Dirk going 2-11 guarded by swingmen? Or the game coming down to a close with Tony Parker one on one and he shoots a long fadeaway? How does that happen?

Something is just off with him at times. He might make the Thunder look like children...he might go 4-15 as we get knocked out by a worse team.

Hes never seemed like he was just gonna go takeover the game whenever we needed it. Or even try.

He never pushed hs offense as far as I think he needed. Not to justify him being miles beyond KG on offense. A guy who was also one of the more talented scorers in the league.

Hes better. But not by as much as he should have been.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

KG is a great offensive player. Dirk is greater. But itsn ot like one is a 4 and the other a 9. If Shaq/Jordan/Bird/Magic types are 10s on offense...

Dirk is what? 8? With KG a....7?

Dirk is a great scorer. But 3 weeks of hot shooting dont change that fact that hes been beaten time and time again while proving either to not be a true elite scorer...or that he didnt have the desire to display it.

What Dirk is...is a true elite shooter. A shooter with few peers in all history.

So a buck 4 is easily greater than a buck, but a 8-9 over whatever you think Garnett is on offense isn't?

You are really delusional or you just say sh*t on the internet just to say say sh*t.

I'm guessing the latter. And no don't type a War and Peace response over your hypocrisy.

[tpols]

KG is a great offensive player. Dirk is greater. But itsn ot like one is a 4 and the other a 9. If Shaq/Jordan/Bird/Magic types are 10s on offense...

Dirk is what? 8? With KG a....7?

Yea I'd say thats about right.. If Dirk is an 8/10 offensively, then KG is a 7/10. But my point was to show you that having a minor edge in a bunch of trivial, lower impact things such as dribbling the ball, passing, finishing creating, etc.doesn't mean you're better than a player that puts in legendary production at just one aspect. If Dirk can dominate games offensively with just his shooting to the same or higher degree than KG can with all of his little advantages what does it really matter? Dirk, offensively, has a higher impact and that is the bottom line. Completeness does not imply one is greater than another if one of the players in the discussion is dominant enough at their one niche.

I think clutchness should be its own separate category aside from defense and offense too. Lets face it.. most NBA games boil down to the fourth quarters. Probably like 80% of all playoff games are competitive matches. So having a great closer is extremely important. And if Dirk is a 9/10 clutch player, KG is probably a 5 or a 6.

What KG lacks offensively and in the clutch though he makes up for in a big way defensively and on the glass. Dont let career averages fool you.. just look at their prime seasons where KG was leading the league in rebounding and grabbing 15+rpg on a consistent basis. He was an ACTIVE rebounder.. the type that would emphatically snatch loose balls out of the air. Dirk's rebounds were more a result of him being the tallest guy on the court playing huge minutes.. it's different. If KG is a 10/10 defensively, Dirk is a 3 or 4. This is really the tipping point for me. Garnett was a standout player on both ends while Dirk was not[and although he makes up for it with his clutch ability, its not enough to offset KG's advantage on defense and with rebounding].

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

TPols, and that is the problem with trying to separate "numbers" ranking on certain terms. It's like of like Robin Williams explaining the "poetry" lesson from Dead Poets Society. You just can't do it.

And there are nuances in the shooting ability that is HUGE on offense. Things that get fsactored in besides scoring and passing, dribbling, etc.

For example: Dirk draws more fouls than garnett EVER did. Therefore Dirk gets his team in the penalty quicker. Therefore other players become better offensively. Dirk is the better option on pick and rolls. Garnett may set better screens. But Dirk is the better weapon on the screen. And that is huge with a penetrating guard. Dirk creates space for other shooters. He can draw people away freom the hoop, and get others more opportunities to score. Doesn't show up in the boxscore. But Dirk being able to walk to the 3 point line is MORE valuable than Garnett being around the 15 foot mark. It makes it to where the defender can't rotate as easily, etc. Dirk is a triple threat position at all times. Doesn't show up in the boxcsore but it effects the offense tremendously. Dirk is GAMEPLANNED around. Doesn't show up in the boxscore but it effects the offense.Garnett for most of his career was not.

Blaze, you want to break it down into this nice little neat package. But it isn't a nice little neat package.

[Kblaze8855]

So a buck 4 is easily greater than a buck, but a 8-9 over whatever you think Garnett is on offense isn't?

You are really delusional or you just say sh*t on the internet just to say say sh*t.

I'm guessing the latter. And no don't type a War and Peace response over your hypocrisy.

This isnt that complicated...

The whole point was...

He didnt like that people said it was easily Kg...because he took it to mean it was a wide difference.

I assumed it was people thinking its close...but decisive. like a dollar vs a dollar and change. an inarguable case of one being better...doesnt mean that the bettero ne is better by a mile. Using that analogy...yes. As scorers...

One could say Dirk is the dollar and change. KG is the dollar.

Same thing. No conflicting logic at all.

But I might say...KG is a dollar...Dirk is a dollar 10...but perhaps he should be a dollar 50. And KG should be a dollar 25. Just to stretch that far beyond where it needed to go.

But it would justify saying Dirk is easily better at scoring. But perhaps not...much better. Just as I said the guy in question(not even me if you remember....) might think Kg was easily better...but not much better.

The point was showing the difference between an inarguable difference...and a large difference.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, when I said "easily" I didn't mean to imply that there was this astronomical gulf between the two, but that KG is still clearly better...

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah, when I said "easily" I didn't mean to imply that there was this astronomical gulf between the two, but that KG is still clearly better...

What I assumed. The difference between clearly better and better by a wide margin shouldnt take a whole lot of explaining. I get how one could be confused at first...but its very simple shit.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Yeah, when I said "easily" I didn't mean to imply that there was this astronomical gulf between the two, but that KG is still clearly better...

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0912/that-word-inigo-montoya-word-think-means-princess-bride-mand-demotivational-poster-1260739585.jpg

[Jacks3]

What. Clearly? lol

C'mon. This isn't hard.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

What I assumed. The difference between clearly better and better by a wide margin shouldnt take a whole lot of explaining. I get how one could be confused at first...but its very simple shit.

But now you are changing what was said. What I quoted the first time was the simple sh*t. But I can see why one would want to "change" what was said to make oneself look better.

This is what you said originally:


The superior player though? KG easily.

Now then. Clearly is not the same as easily. The reason? Because it is an opinion. Hell, Bill Simmons would rank Dirk over Garnett. I guess to him Dirk is clearly beter than Garnett? Or easily?

See? You can't use either word if there is a debate.

Then Blaze you said:


If I have a dollar and you have a dollar and 4 cets....you easily have more money than me. Its a fact. beyond dispute. If it is beyond dispute...id call it "Not eve nclose". To people who consider the fact that KG is better than Dirk at every single thing one could do during a basketball game...except for the 20 seconds of 40 minutes you shoot....

4 cents will never EASILY or clearly more than something else. Is itr more? Yes. But not easily more. If you had a buck in your pocket with small change denominations such as nickels and pennies... and a buck 4 in change in the same denominations in the other pocket. You cannot tell IMMEDIATELY which is more. hence it is not CLEARLY or EASILY discernible. Because easily or clearly implies by a wide margin as you put. Less than a nickel in your analogy? Not a wide margin.

[DMAVS41]

I didnt read all that(yet...dont take that as a "Didnt read!" thing. Itsj ustn ot what I came back in here for..ill read it later). But I saw something I think needs clearing up...

If I were judging Dirk by what he would be minus his jumper I wouldnt think he was a great player would I? I know it doesnt matter what a guy would be minus what he does best. Which is why ive always said Dirk is great...a legend...hall of famer...worthy MVP...all that. What you cant do doesnt matter as much as what you do. Which is why Dirk is great.

But what you cant do matters when the issue is who I want. Who I consider better. And Dirk just cant play the extreme vast majority of the game on KGs level. And KG in his prime was one of the best scorers in the league. There is a big gap in their total game...and a much smaller one in their scoring. So I consider Kg the better player. Now...what I actually came in here to say...


I was walking around thinking about it....

Im not sure KG is a better total player than Magic Johnson. Magic is arguably better than KG at everything on offense other than midrangej umper. In his prime he was a better 3 point shooter and arguably as reliable or morei n the post. Magic was a problem with his back to the basket inside 12 feet. He was a better ball handler. A better passer by an epic degree. He was a good rebounder as well.

KG murders him as an on the ball and team defender. But Magic was flat out average on D. This idea that Magic was always eaten alive on D is nothing but a myth. Magic was eaten alive when he got stuck on guysl ike Tim Hardaway and KJ who at 6'9'' he shouldnt have been expected to guard anyway. Magic on his usual man(a swingman to a 4) was nothing to point out. He was invisible on D like most players are. Not getting lit up enough to nothing not making enough plays to stand out. MAgic got his steals but man to man he wasnt good or bad on guys his size.

KG kills him on that end...but Magic as a point had a greater responsibility. KG leads his defense like few ive seen. Magic might be the greatest total offensive player of all time. I wouldnt say so. Id put him in the argument. But ive heard it said by people I wouldnt call idiots.

Arguably GOAT offense plus average defense....vs all time elite total D....plus star offense? Looks like it leans KGs way but...eh. Being a point is so much mroe than passing and shooting. Magic ran his offense and did so at a level most HOF points had to envy.

Point guards are hard to rank as total players vs non points because their are judged by things no other position has to do. Setting pace...calling plays...keeping egos in check. Id have to put Magic over KG at all of those skills but...how do I knock a power forward for not setting pace or knowing when his teammates should repost and directing them to do so?

Im gonna have to take back the KG>magic as a total player claim till I think of a way to account for the differences in what they are expected to do.

Well, we have now gotten to a place that is useless. Maybe that is my fault.

I don't have any issue with someone taking KG over Dirk. In fact, I would as well. For a number of your reasons. As I have said time and time again.

My issue with this before you joined in was the notion that they aren't comparable. And no matter how you want to break down the phrases "easily" or "its not even close".....that is what is meant by those things.

When someone says a player is "easily" better than another player....it implies that its not close and any comparison is pointless. Unless someone clarifies a different meaning to that, then that is how I and everyone takes it.

I now have a few different issues with how you break down Dirk. I still don't see the point in removing the best qualities of players to find their value. Of course it will favor the more complete player. Which of course KG was.

I also don't understand your comments about Dirk only being good for 20 seconds a game or when he's used as a decoy. His mere presence on the floor is of value regardless. A player doesn't accomplish the things Dirk has in his career as the best player on a team if his worth can be boiled down so easily.

That was my point about the flawed logic. Its leading to silly conclusions.

After seeing your take, I think its clear that you don't acknowledge that some things are worth more. Yes, KG is more complete, but the a few of the skills that Dirk has are simply more valuable to winning. If it was just an offense vs offense and defense vs defense and rebounding vs rebounding breakdown, then KG should be twice as good as Dirk. We all know that is not the case though.

So why is that? Because what Dirk does and provides is of paramount importance. Dirk has "it".....he has the ability to consistently carry a team offensively against the best competition in the playoffs and he has the ability to score points with the game on the line...when those points are the hardest come by. Because of the skills Dirk brings, he allows his teammates to flourish in ways that most superstars don't. He isn't ball dominant, he's a great 1 on 1 player and spot up shooter, he's great at the line....etc. Those skills are of the utmost importance. And I feel like you don't give them proper value.

But enough of this. We are actually in agreement on most fronts. You don't think there is a huge gap between them...and neither do I. That is my main issue.

[DMAVS41]

But now you are changing what was said. What I quoted the first time was the simple sh*t. But I can see why one would want to "change" what was said to make oneself look better.

This is what you said originally:



Now then. Clearly is not the same as easily. The reason? Because it is an opinion. Hell, Bill Simmons would rank Dirk over Garnett. I guess to him Dirk is clearly beter than Garnett? Or easily?

See? You can't use either word if there is a debate.

Then Blaze you said:



4 cents will never EASILY or clearly more than something else. Is itr more? Yes. But not easily more. If you had a buck in your pocket with small change denominations such as nickels and pennies... and a buck 4 in change in the same denominations in the other pocket. You cannot tell IMMEDIATELY which is more. hence it is not CLEARLY or EASILY discernible. Because easily or clearly implies by a wide margin as you put. Less than a nickel in your analogy? Not a wide margin.

Pretty much this.

We all know what was meant. Its simple shit. Clearly or easily...it really doesn't matter to me.

It implies a wide gap. You would never say Duncan was "clearly" or "easily" better than Shaq if you rank Duncan higher. Which I do.

Saying that just sounds stupid. They are both great players on the same tier for sure. Implying that one should be ahead of the other by a decisive margin is just silly. It boils down to personal preference.

Regardless, it looks like that statement has been rescinded anyway.

I'm more curious how or why someone thinks Dirk is only valuable for 20 seconds a game. Good post by the way on the value of Dirk going beyond what they seem willing to acknowledge. Which is exactly my point as to why you can't break down players in that way. It ignores the actual value of certain guys.

[Pointguard]

I believe KG is greater than Dirk, but your reasoning here is a little weird.

All Dirk does better than KG is shoot the basketball.. correct. But it's by worlds and worlds of difference. A player that impacts the game in a huge way with one dimension isn't definitively worse than a player who impacts the game in a huge way by putting in lesser impacts in every other area.

KG is great because of his overall game.. Offensively, KG can pass, dribble, finish, and create better than Dirk. So.. why is he not the better offensive player? Because Dirk's impact on the game with only his shooting is much better than KG's impact with his dribbling, passing, finishing, and creating~because he does all of these things to a much lesser degree successfuly, even combined, than Dirk does with his shooting.
KG could be a HOF for his defense, rebounding like Rodman got in. Plus throw in his ability to pass. He could have gotten in if you took out any one of his four great attributes (Passing, Scoring, Rebounding, Defense nevermind leadership, hustle and inspiration). If KG played like Dirk and only prioritized scoring its hard to imagine not scoring a couple of more baskets a game and scoring more than Dirk - if you are talking about total offense KG outscores him anyway. If you take away Dirk's one strength, as Kblaze says, he isn't even in the league.

When you say offensive impact in the playoffs are you including Assist??? In total offense KG wins that one too - playoffs or not playoffs. It's not remotely close when you include rebounding, defense, intimidation, steals, etc. KG's assist really do count because most of his teams consisted of players that could not score on their own.

Impact is about what you do and don't do. Dirk's impact is based on others taking up the slack of impact he has in other parts of his game. Somebody has to pass, block, set up, defend, steal, assist, be tough, hustle, be vocal etc. Yall keep acting like this doesn't factor in. Kobe was trashing the West coast in '08. He hardly thought about getting to the basket against Boston. KG's defensive impact in that run was as good as Dirk's offense in this run. Kobe is definitely a top five offensive player ever and sorry a step above Dirk no matter how you cut it. KG anchored an incredible impenetrable defense. So I will say KG's impact was more vast than Dirk's in 2011 as KG was also the teams leading scorer in the playoffs. His slack of impact a lot less than Dirk's too.

Another thing for impact. If KG's productivity, intensity and hustle in his prime showed that he affected 60 possessions (offense and defense) a game it is an insult to compare him to a guy that is constantly working at 35 possessions. Impact is something you have to understand from a point of totality, not just points. A player like KG is impacting every moment on the floor. When that adds up its always a lot... When compared to a great defender that is a solid scorer, you have to score a lot, to make up on the total impact scale. But it rarely got that big for Dirk - he wasn't like Wade or Kobe in their big playoff runs.

[Kblaze8855]

Are we really going to keep going on the difference between clearly and easily? It should be obvious by now what everyone thinks. even the guy first questioned on the "clearly better" thing said he didnt mean its some huge gap....



As for this:

TPols, and that is the problem with trying to separate "numbers" ranking on certain terms. It's like of like Robin Williams explaining the "poetry" lesson from Dead Poets Society. You just can't do it.

And there are nuances in the shooting ability that is HUGE on offense. Things that get fsactored in besides scoring and passing, dribbling, etc.

For example: Dirk draws more fouls than garnett EVER did. Therefore Dirk gets his team in the penalty quicker. Therefore other players become better offensively. Dirk is the better option on pick and rolls. Garnett may set better screens. But Dirk is the better weapon on the screen. And that is huge with a penetrating guard. Dirk creates space for other shooters. He can draw people away freom the hoop, and get others more opportunities to score. Doesn't show up in the boxscore. But Dirk being able to walk to the 3 point line is MORE valuable than Garnett being around the 15 foot mark. It makes it to where the defender can't rotate as easily, etc. Dirk is a triple threat position at all times. Doesn't show up in the boxcsore but it effects the offense tremendously. Dirk is GAMEPLANNED around. Doesn't show up in the boxscore but it effects the offense.Garnett for most of his career was not.

Blaze, you want to break it down into this nice little neat package. But it isn't a nice little neat package.

Ignoring for a moment that you pretty much said that dirk is a better shooter and due to his shooting...is a bigger threat to score...pretty much saying the same thing I did....just assigning more value to it....

You really think KG isnt gameplanned around? Meaning his own team or the opponent? Because there is just to way that is true.

Far as his own team...

If not playing off KG what do you think the gameplan was in his day? Lets just run around and give KG the ball now and then and let Troy Hudson shoot some threes? He wasnt getting 6 assists a game as a power forward by not being played through or a clear intended part of the offense. Hes out there in the high post with cutters, kicking out to shooters, drawing doubles with Wally and others stepping into shots. How many timesh ave you seen KG palm the ball high over his head...dribble once...pretend to go into his fadeaway only to turn and throw it out to a shooter? This is the NBA we are talking about. You dont just go hope for the best with your multitalented superstar. Of course they gameplanned around his skills. And I suspect on defense it was even more. Though people often pretend defense just happens by magic....defense takes a gameplan too. And all ive ever heard is that KG is a demanding teammate on D and a very willing teacher. Its said he spent a lot of time with young guys helping them understand what Thibs was asking out of the bigmen. It takes gameplanning to be as good as his defenses have been. And if you meant defense...

Well I just assume you didnt. Nothing you have said makes me think you are dumb enough to have meant defense. Kg goes out and drops say...33/25/6 and 3 blocks including back to back 3s to force OT in a win vs the Kings(as he did). You dont think Adleman has something to say in practice and film next time they play? Or that he gets 32/21 4 steals and 5 blocks with every FG his team made in the 4th in game 7...without Phil Jackson thinking "Hey...we might need to think about how to deal with this guy...".

Nah. Im gonna assume you know better than that.

Coaches live for basketball. Basketball lifers like Flip Saunders, Doc Rivers, and so on arent going out without an offensive gameplan and sure as hell not without a defensive one...that heavily features KG.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Ignoring for a moment that you pretty much said that dirk is a better shooter and due to his shooting...is a bigger threat to score...pretty much saying the same thing I did....just assigning more value to it....

Um, no but thanks for playing. .

And then you go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what I said.

Looky what the right hand is doing so ya don't notice the left!

[DMAVS41]

Are we really going to keep going on the difference between clearly and easily? It should be obvious by now what everyone thinks. even the guy first questioned on the "clearly better" thing said he didnt mean its some huge gap....




Ignoring for a moment that you pretty much said that dirk is a better shooter and due to his shooting...is a bigger threat to score...pretty much saying the same thing I did....just assigning more value to it....

You really think KG isnt gameplanned around? Meaning his own team or the opponent? Because there is just to way that is true.

Far as his own team...

If not playing off KG what do you think the gameplan was in his day? Lets just run around and give KG the ball now and then and let Troy Hudson shoot some threes? He wasnt getting 6 assists a game as a power forward by not being played through or a clear intended part of the offense. Hes out there in the high post with cutters, kicking out to shooters, drawing doubles with Wally and others stepping into shots. How many timesh ave you seen KG palm the ball high over his head...dribble once...pretend to go into his fadeaway only to turn and throw it out to a shooter? This is the NBA we are talking about. You dont just go hope for the best with your multitalented superstar. Of course they gameplanned around his skills. And I suspect on defense it was even more. Though people often pretend defense just happens by magic....defense takes a gameplan too. And all ive ever heard is that KG is a demanding teammate on D and a very willing teacher. Its said he spent a lot of time with young guys helping them understand what Thibs was asking out of the bigmen. It takes gameplanning to be as good as his defenses have been. And if you meant defense...

Well I just assume you didnt. Nothing you have said makes me think you are dumb enough to have meant defense. Kg goes out and drops say...33/25/6 and 3 blocks including back to back 3s to force OT in a win vs the Kings(as he did). You dont think Adleman has something to say in practice and film next time they play? Or that he gets 32/21 4 steals and 5 blocks with every FG his team made in the 4th in game 7...without Phil Jackson thinking "Hey...we might need to think about how to deal with this guy...".

Nah. Im gonna assume you know better than that.

Coaches live for basketball. Basketball lifers like Flip Saunders, Doc Rivers, and so on arent going out without an offensive gameplan and sure as hell not without a defensive one...that heavily features KG.

Yep. I agree with pretty much all of this.

To the bold....that is my issue. I don't think you or others are giving proper value to those things.

You don't accomplish what Dirk has in his career without those skills he has being of the utmost value. Especially considering Dirk has been the best player year in year out on a team with good, but not great talent that has changed over many times. Different coaches. Different players. Different league. 50 plus wins every year. A few deep playoff runs. A title.

Its the value of those things that we disagree on.

[Kblaze8855]

Um, no but thanks for playing. .

And then you go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what I said.


It is pretty much the same. I said Dirk shoots...and that...he might shoot. The fact that he might shoot...the threat of his shooting...is the source of pretty much all you mentioned he does aside from shoot. He shoots...and is a threat to shoot. That is the only reason he is in the NBA. He shoots...and unlike most shooters...can shoot when well defended. You listed a bunch of things that result from the ability to shoot.

Its kinda like if I said all Theo Ratliff does is block shots. And add that he also...might block a shot. My way of saying its clear that its not a stand alone talent. It impacts the rest of the game.

All he does well is block shots. But because hes so good at it...he impacts how the offense plays. He alters shots he doesnt block. He closes driving lanes.

But all of it...in the end...is him being able to block shots.

If you are gonna pretend to think I dont know that shooting only taking 20 seconds doesnt mean it doesnt matter....feel free to keep telling me im unaware of it.

But I dont know how else to respond at this point. If I say Dirk does nothing to get into a game but shoot....and then say hes an MVP level player. Is it not obvious I know his shooting is important?

But fact remains...its the one and only thing that keeps him on the floor.

He shoots. Or...he might shoot. Because he might shoot he requires constant attention from the defense. But in the end...he shoots or he doesnt justify PT. Thats it. Cant shoot...out of the NBA.

I cant take that over a guy who is himself a very good scorer and better at literally everything else.

Im trying to think of an exception though...

Iverson/Payton perhaps?



And you said hes not gameplanned around or for or something. Not sure how what I was saying is unrelated to that. Its what you said that stood out most to me.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

It is pretty much the same. I said Dirk shoots...and that...he might shoot. The fact that he might shoot...the threat of his shooting...is the source of pretty much all you mentioned he does aside from shoot. He shoots...and is a threat to shoot. That is the only reason he is in the NBA. He shoots...and unlike most shooters...can shoot when well defended. You listed a bunch of things that result from the ability to shoot.

Really? **shakes head and walks away**

[DMAVS41]

It is pretty much the same. I said Dirk shoots...and that...he might shoot. The fact that he might shoot...the threat of his shooting...is the source of pretty much all you mentioned he does aside from shoot. He shoots...and is a threat to shoot. That is the only reason he is in the NBA. He shoots...and unlike most shooters...can shoot when well defended. You listed a bunch of things that result from the ability to shoot.

Its kinda like if I said all Theo Ratliff does is block shots. And add that he also...might block a shot. My way of saying its clear that its not a stand alone talent. It impacts the rest of the game.

All he does well is block shots. But because hes so good at it...he impacts how the offense plays. He alters shots he doesnt block. He closes driving lanes.

But all of it...in the end...is him being able to block shots.

If you are gonna pretend to think I dont know that shooting only taking 20 seconds doesnt mean it doesnt matter....feel free to keep telling me im unaware of it.

But I dont know how else to respond at this point. If I say Dirk does nothing to get into a game but shoot....and then say hes an MVP level player. Is it not obvious I know his shooting is important?

But fact remains...its the one and only thing that keeps him on the floor.

He shoots. Or...he might shoot. Because he might shoot he requires constant attention from the defense. But in the end...he shoots or he doesnt justify PT. Thats it. Cant shoot...out of the NBA.

I cant take that over a guy who is himself a very good scorer and better at literally everything else.

Im trying to think of an exception though...

Iverson/Payton perhaps?



And you said hes not gameplanned around or for or something. Not sure how what I was saying is unrelated to that. Its what you said that stood out most to me.


And that quality is the most valuable quality to have. A player that can shoot/score at an all time great level while being unselfish and not ball dominant and impacts the game by his mere presence. That is also a great clutch player as well that can consistently produce in the most important time of games. Those are the most valuable qualities a player can have. Dirk has them. They are worth more than most think.

[Kblaze8855]

And that quality is the most valuable quality to have. A player that can shoot/score at an all time great level while being unselfish and not ball dominant and impacts the game by his mere presence. That is also a great clutch player as well that can consistently produce in the most important time of games. Those are the most valuable qualities a player can have. Dirk has them. They are worth more than most think.

That just comes down to the old offense vs defense argument. Score 100 if you give up 101 you lose. Hold the other team to 70. you score 68 you lose.

Ive seen Dirk playing with good teams that could compete for years. At least 6 or 7 times now hes had a team good enough to win...that fell short. Some of them to much worse teams. Some win 55 games and lose in the first round. Some with 5 all stars lose. Some that played great d, rebounded, had great guard play, all star swingmen, 6th man of the year types and the right mentality. Dirk has had every kind of team I can imagine. Im not gonna pretend his style(shoot...do little else) is more likely to result in victory than being great at everything because 12 years in it worked....when by talent it could have worked several times by now. Ive had Mavs fans predicting ring for them like...4 or 5 years. I remember in 03 Mavs fans telling us they were gonna run the west in the playoffs and win the ring. I remember in 06 being told that if they beat the Suns they had the ring. Guy ive posted with for 10 years...from Dallas. Laughed when we suggested the Warriors were gonna stop the Mavs. That was gonna be their year. Won 67 games and all. And then...

That they won finally....vs a team that probably should have won the series in 5 and showed no heart....

Doesnt mean the Dirk approach is a better one to take than a defense first and plug the other holes approach.

I didnt say Dirk was garbage in 2005 when I said he was more of an MVP than Nash before Nash destroyed them....I dont say hes a beast now. Dirk has always been Dirk. I think hes hit a level as a shooter that ive possibly never seen before. But its not like he wasnt one of the best shooters ever in 2003. And hes a better passer. But fundamentally Dirk has been Dirk a long time.

I dont think this year proved "Star scores...everyone else..fill in the holes" approach works any more than KG already having a ring and nearly 2 proves that a do everything centerpiece proves anything.

The score vs stop argument is never gonna end. I just side with stop...when both sides can contribute heavily to my scoring.

[Kblaze8855]

Honestly...ive been hearing "The Mavs about to win it all" for 10 years now.

Just something that makes me laugh a bit....07:



nah no way. i'm so not worried about this game that i'm watching it while posting. i rarely post while watching a mavs game but even though we're down by 2 right now i have no doubt in my mind that we're gonna win this game. mavs too raw son.

Little later:



seriously though i'm mad. what the **** man? the warriors? what is that now, like 6 out of the last 7? why can't we beat the warriors? why did we rest our players when we had a chance to possibly knock them out of the playoffs the second to last game of the season?

i wouldn't panic but this team officially owns us now. if we lose this series i don't think i will ever recover.


Later still...


i have pretty much lost all respect i had for dirk nowitzki.


And



dirk has never shown up in a big game, he has just been lucky others had bailed him out before. Its no big suprise

To which I said:


Dirk was nice vs the Spurs last year and in 03 and the Suns last year. But he has faded this series. He needs one of those 41/17 games next game.


Dallas native continued...



dirk was disgusting the whole playoffs last year before game 3 of the nba finals. he was sick in the memphis series, san antonio and phoenix, then game 3 of the finals hit and he turned into a little bitch and it's been continuing into this postseason. even when dirk has a bad game he usually bounces back in a big way, but he hasn't done that. i expected him to have a huge game in game 2, he didn't, i expected it in game 3, he didn't, and i expected it tonight and he played like an absolute bitch. if we win three games in a row, which i doubt, dirk better ball outrageous. i hope he wins the mvp now just so he can be the laughing stock of the sport's world. mvp of the league on the best team in the league who plays like a complete ****ing bitch in the first round and gets bounced by the 8th seed who defended him with stephen jackson all series.

Different mavs fan:


From the Mavs' front office: It's official.

Dirk to play in the WNBA developmental league.


seriously, wtf, dirk? this guy is gonna win mvp this year! are they gonna have to hold a press conference to give him the award? how the **** is that gonna go down? honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if dirk killed himself in the next couple days... or if he retired and went back to germany never to be heard from again.... how the **** is he gonna bounce back from this? and couple it with last year? seriously, i hate dirk.


And I was left to defend Dirk...to Mavs fans. funny times to me.

The Dirk experiment had its ups and down. Overall its failed too many times for me to conclude its a sound plan for team building.

Im thinking that more often than not...start with the defensive monster with superstar offense...over the(when he feels like it) unstoppable shooter who does nothing else of note.

I would like to add though....

I had Dirk over Karl Malone like 3 years ago....

[Carbine]

Ive seen Dirk playing with good teams that could compete for years. At least 6 or 7 times now hes had a team good enough to win...that fell short.

That's really not true though. His teams throughout his career have had lots of "talent," but how that talent complimented the team and Dirk was not up to par. I don't recal Dirk ever playing with a legit center - a championship caliber center - before Chandler, so not Erica Dampier or Shawn Bradley.

How a team fits together will always trump a more talented, but less cohesive unit.

I can honestly say, without a doubt, that this past year was the first year where he had a championship caliber team/cast around him - and it was in the lower tier at that. Yeah, the Mavs were the number 1 seed in 07 or whatever it was, but that team wasn't a championship caliber team IMO. Not with a front line where Dampier/Diop/Crosher got the majority of the burn as your "bigs."

[Kblaze8855]

They were a jumper away from going up 3-0 in the 06 finals and won 67 games...but not a title level team?

The Mavs could realistically have 3 rings right now....

[DMAVS41]

They were a jumper away from going up 3-0 in the 06 finals and won 67 games...but not a title level team?

The Mavs could realistically have 3 rings right now....

3 is far from the 6 or 7 you claimed.

And the only reason that had a chance in 06 was because they upset the Spurs.

Most championship teams aren't underdogs. Mavs were favored to win it all in 1 year. 07. You can blame Dirk for that....and rightfully so. The other years? Nah....they never really had a roster worthy of being favored to win it all.

And I'm still not sure how that 07 team was as good as it was. That roster had no business winning 67 games.

Oh, and I find you saying "the Dirk experiment" had its ups and downs. What about the "KG experiment"??????

0 playoff series wins in his first 8 seasons. I think only 7 playoff wins in that same time.

Its really not hard. Every player needs the right piece. KG needed a player like Pierce to step up with the game on the line. Dirk needs a legit defensive minded athletic center. Shaq needed elite wing players....etc.

Hard to fault Dirk because the front office continued to try and win with solely offense and surrounded him with one dimensional players that can't defend. Amazing how the Mavs finally get what true fans have been begging for....for about 11 years now....and they win the title in year 1 with Chandler/Haywood.

Funny how that works isn't it.


Also, you act like they had no success and blame them for over-achieving in the regular season at times. An argument that makes almost no sense. You bring up 03. Funny how you fail to mention they made the WCF....with Dirk going for over 30 and 10 in two game 7's....then Dirk getting hurt in game 3 and missing the rest of the series. In 06 you ignore that the Mavs were huge underdogs to even get out of the 2nd round.....

Actually take a look at the Mavs rosters. They have never been the best in the league. Not once. If you are going to hold Dirk to this standard, you better hold KG to this standard. Forget winning a playoff series, KG could barely win a playoff game. He had one great run in 04...then missed the playoffs the next 2 years. LOL

But yep, 11 straight seasons of over 50 wins with plenty of roster and coaching changes. Some of the best playoff numbers of all time. Undefeated in game 7's. Some of the best elimination game numbers of all time. One of the most clutch playoff runs of all time. Its just worth nothing.

7 chances to win the title? You must ****ing out of your damn mind.

[Carbine]

Their run to the finals was more to do with playing Memphis (young team, not ready to compete) and Dirk having a fantastic series vs the Spurs and having a truly remarkable game 7 on the road where he made big play after big play to get them past the second round....and then playing a PHX team where Dirk dropped 50/12 in game 5 to take all the momentum away from PHX. His play was stellar, and carried a faulted team.

I see how one could argue that particular team qualified as a championship level cast, but at the end of the day...they made the finals because of Dirks fantastic play, not because of a fantastic supporting cast. They lose game 7 vs. the Spurs without Dirk playing out of his mind. The series is totally different vs. PHX if he doesn't come out and put up a 50 spot in a series tied 2-2. That team had talent, more talent than this 2011 Mavericks team, but the talent didn't fit nearly as well - and in the end it was exposed.

[DMAVS41]

That just comes down to the old offense vs defense argument. Score 100 if you give up 101 you lose. Hold the other team to 70. you score 68 you lose.

Ive seen Dirk playing with good teams that could compete for years. At least 6 or 7 times now hes had a team good enough to win...that fell short. Some of them to much worse teams. Some win 55 games and lose in the first round. Some with 5 all stars lose. Some that played great d, rebounded, had great guard play, all star swingmen, 6th man of the year types and the right mentality. Dirk has had every kind of team I can imagine. Im not gonna pretend his style(shoot...do little else) is more likely to result in victory than being great at everything because 12 years in it worked....when by talent it could have worked several times by now. Ive had Mavs fans predicting ring for them like...4 or 5 years. I remember in 03 Mavs fans telling us they were gonna run the west in the playoffs and win the ring. I remember in 06 being told that if they beat the Suns they had the ring. Guy ive posted with for 10 years...from Dallas. Laughed when we suggested the Warriors were gonna stop the Mavs. That was gonna be their year. Won 67 games and all. And then...

That they won finally....vs a team that probably should have won the series in 5 and showed no heart....

Doesnt mean the Dirk approach is a better one to take than a defense first and plug the other holes approach.

I didnt say Dirk was garbage in 2005 when I said he was more of an MVP than Nash before Nash destroyed them....I dont say hes a beast now. Dirk has always been Dirk. I think hes hit a level as a shooter that ive possibly never seen before. But its not like he wasnt one of the best shooters ever in 2003. And hes a better passer. But fundamentally Dirk has been Dirk a long time.

I dont think this year proved "Star scores...everyone else..fill in the holes" approach works any more than KG already having a ring and nearly 2 proves that a do everything centerpiece proves anything.

The score vs stop argument is never gonna end. I just side with stop...when both sides can contribute heavily to my scoring.

I totally agree with you about Dirk relatively always being Dirk. Well said.

Once again, you are talking to someone that has KG higher. Lets make that clear yet again. I personally think what Dirk brings to the table on offense is more valuable than what KG brings on defense. Where you get KG over Dirk is when you combine KG's defense with his offense. I understand that and I actually agree with it. Like I said above.

I do think you still under value the importance of a player being able to consistently have an offense run through him late in close games...especially in the playoffs. Playoff games usually enter the 4th qtr in doubt. Having a reliable option for this is paramount. KG just never was that. And he would have had more success if he was. He wasn't on Dirk's level in this area. He wasn't on Duncan's level. He wasn't on Shaq's or Kobe's either. That is worth noting.

I don't think its any harder to find a Chandler to go along with Dirk than it is a Pierce to go along with KG. Neither player is winning without that in my opinion. Its funny how you use KG coming close to winning a 2nd title as a positive but Dirk coming close to winning a 2nd title as a negative. Why?

KG was awful in the finals in 2010 and even worse in game 6 and game 7. Perk went down and KG was naked on the floor. Getting pushed around on the glass by freaking pau gasol.

The truth is that KG won his title playing with much better help than Dirk won his. Dirk went through tougher teams...and did so more easily at that.

What you say flies in the face of what we all saw. There is more value to what Dirk has provided...the results speak for themselves.

[DMAVS41]

Their run to the finals was more to do with playing Memphis (young team, not ready to compete) and Dirk having a fantastic series vs the Spurs and having a truly remarkable game 7 on the road where he made big play after big play to get them past the second round....and then playing a PHX team where Dirk dropped 50/12 in game 5 to take all the momentum away from PHX. His play was stellar, and carried a faulted team.

I see how one could argue that particular team qualified as a championship level cast, but at the end of the day...they made the finals because of Dirks fantastic play, not because of a fantastic supporting cast. They lose game 7 vs. the Spurs without Dirk playing out of his mind. The series is totally different vs. PHX if he doesn't come out and put up a 50 spot in a series tied 2-2. That team had talent, more talent than this 2011 Mavericks team, but the talent didn't fit nearly as well - and in the end it was exposed.

Bingo.

I have no issue with someone saying that Dirk has played on 3 teams capable of winning the title. I feel more like you do, but I don't think its worth debating that. 3 is reasonable depending on the criteria.

What is not reasonable is saying 7. That is simply a ****ing joke.

[tpols]

Once again, you are talking to someone that has KG higher. Lets make that clear yet again. I personally think what Dirk brings to the table on offense is more valuable than what KG brings on defense. Where you get KG over Dirk is when you combine KG's defense with his offense. I understand that and I actually agree with it. Like I said above.



What you say flies in the face of what we all saw. There is more value to what Dirk has provided...the results speak for themselves.
How can you say KG was the better player and then turn around and say Dirk provided more value throughout his runs? Do you not use value/impact to judge how good a player is?

[DMAVS41]

How can you say KG was the better player and then turn around and say Dirk provided more value throughout his runs? Do you not use value/impact to judge how good a player is?

You misunderstand me. I'm am talking about Kblaze not valuing what Dirk provides on offense enough.

Not "more value" overall compared to KG.

That is all. I am saying that Dirk's value on offense is greater than he is giving him credit for. Not that Dirk's value is greater than KG's.

You and I seem to actually be on the same page on this one.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Bingo.

I have no issue with someone saying that Dirk has played on 3 teams capable of winning the title. I feel more like you do, but I don't think its worth debating that. 3 is reasonable depending on the criteria.

What is not reasonable is saying 7. That is simply a ****ing joke.

The Mavs in 03 were primed. And had they beaten the Spurs, the Nets would not have been a match. But alas, Manu bumped knees with Dirk. And Nellie didn't want to risk Dirk's career. That was the start of the falling out between Nellie and Cuban. Cuban wanted Dirk to play. Nellie didn't want Dirk to play. Dirk was cleared by the doctors to play in game 6.

Hindsight is 20/20 now that Dirk and the Mavs have their ring. But had he not gotten it... that 03 year would have been a major "what might of been....."

[tpols]

You misunderstand me. I'm am talking about Kblaze not valuing what Dirk provides on offense enough.

Not "more value" overall compared to KG.

That is all. I am saying that Dirk's value on offense is greater than he is giving him credit for. Not that Dirk's value is greater than KG's.

You and I seem to actually be on the same page on this one.
True true.. I think he's undervaluing Dirk's offensive impact a little too. But I completely understand why he thinks Garnett is better. The gap between their defense is bigger than the gap in their offense even with clutch play included.. and thats what puts it over the top for me.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

True true.. I think he's undervaluing Dirk's offensive impact a little too. But I completely understand why he thinks Garnett is better. The gap between their defense is bigger than the gap in their offense even with clutch play included.. and thats what puts it over the top for me.

And there are many that feel the exact opposite. That Dirk's offensive impact far outweight the gap between Dirk's shortcomings on d compared to Garnett.

[DMAVS41]

True true.. I think he's undervaluing Dirk's offensive impact a little too. But I completely understand why he thinks Garnett is better. The gap between their defense is bigger than the gap in their offense even with clutch play included.. and thats what puts it over the top for me.

Yep. And I agree with it. I think its closer than most, but I personally think KG was the better player for many of the reasons you have said.

My issue is solely with people acting like the gap is big....either way. I've seen people claim Dirk is better and "its not close".....

I think they are two players on the same tier that are very close....and really that is how I feel about all 4 of these guys.

[DMAVS41]

And there are many that feel the exact opposite. That Dirk's offensive impact far outweight the gap between Dirk's shortcomings on d compared to Garnett.

True. I disagree with that, but plenty of people do. Bill Simmons I know feels that way.

[tpols]

And there are many that feel the exact opposite. That Dirk's offensive impact far outweight the gap between Dirk's shortcomings on d compared to Garnett.
Bro.. it's not hard.

Offensively:

-Garnett was a low-mid 20s, middle-to-high efficiency scorer with all time great playmaking and average clutch play

-Dirk was a mid-high 20s, high efficiency scorer with mediocre playmaking[certainly worse than Garnett's] with all time great clutch play

So Dirk was the better scorer by a fair amount, an inferior playmaker by an even bigger margin, and a much better clutch player. Overall, the KG's playmaking and Dirk's scoring cancel each other out and were left with Dirk being the better offensive player in the clutch.. which gives him a sizeable advantage on offense.. lets say 20-25% better than KG.

Defensively:

-Garnett was a monster rebounder who led the league in rebounds multiple times, who played DPOY defense night in and night out and proved he could anchor an all time great defense.

-Dirk was an above average rebounder who never led the league in rebounds, but would always grab a good amount of boards.. his defense was average and he in no way could ever anchor a defense with it because, while his man defense was very good, his help defense, the most important part for a big man anchor was TERRIBLE.

What this leads to is KG being at least 50% better as far as defensive impact goes.

50%>25%.

[Kblaze8855]

3 is far from the 6 or 7 you claimed.


Should 6 or 7 teams with the talent to compete be expected to win 6 or 7 rings? The Mavs contended for all but like 2 of the last 10 years. 6 or 7 of those they had people thinking they could win it all.



And the only reason that had a chance in 06 was because they upset the Spurs.

Most championship teams aren't underdogs. Mavs were favored to win it all in 1 year. 07. You can blame Dirk for that....and rightfully so. The other years? Nah....they never really had a roster worthy of being favored to win it all.

And I'm still not sure how that 07 team was as good as it was. That roster had no business winning 67 games.

Oh, and I find you saying "the Dirk experiment" had its ups and downs. What about the "KG experiment"??????

0 playoff series wins in his first 8 seasons. I think only 7 playoff wins in that same time.

What about the KG experiment? Think I was unaware of him not winning in Minny? The second best record he ever had there....won 51 games. And he did it with 50 games of Wally and Joe Smith, Troy Hudson, rasho, Loren Woods, Kendall Gill, Anothony Peeler, 37 year old Rod Strickland, Gary Trent, Marc Jackson, and Igor Rakocevic. and won 51 games in the west.

And we cant forget the year he had Ricky davis for 36 games, Wally for 40 games, Marcus Banks for 40 games, Marc Blount for 42 games, Troy Hudsons 9ppg on 38% shooting for 36 games, Trenton Hassell as his second best player(I kinda liked him...underrated defender) with all too brief looks at Anthony Carter, Kandi Man, Justin Reed, and Eddie Griffin.

Or lets talk about when he had 18 games of Marbury 27 games of Terrell then Joe smith and Sam Mitchell with Dennis scott and Dean Garrett.

All under the great coaches Randy Wittman, Dwayne Casey, and Kevin Mchale wrapped around Flip.

Meanwhile Mavs fans were complaining about having the wrong mix of 5 all stars or how Nash and Finley were getting old(one of which won the next 2 MVPs and is still a star 6 years later) and task master Avery was too hard on Devin Harris who they had off the bench. KG has mike James and ricky Davis with Casey coaching and Mavs fans upset over Avery Johnsons use of Howard, Terry, and Kidd.

07 and 08 Josh Howard alone would have been the best 2 years KG got out of any teammate between them handing him the team in 99 and him leaving. Not of cassell played healthy more than like half of 05 but...he didnt.



Its really not hard. Every player needs the right piece. KG needed a player like Pierce to step up with the game on the line. Dirk needs a legit defensive minded athletic center. Shaq needed elite wing players....etc.

I think my second topic here was in 01/02 and I suggested KG needed a guy like Stackhouse(at the time...good player) and I wasl aughed at for suggesting anyone else be the first option because people still had not accepted the difference between first option and best player(seems many still have not....). I find it funny that even with Pierce and Ray KG still led them in the playoffs in scoring though. As if he wasnt doing enough...





Hard to fault Dirk because the front office continued to try and win with solely offense and surrounded him with one dimensional players that can't defend. Amazing how the Mavs finally get what true fans have been begging for....for about 11 years now....and they win the title in year 1 with Chandler/Haywood.

Funny how that works isn't it.

Ehhhh....the Mavs have not been a team full of scorers for quite a while now.


Also, you act like they had no success and blame them for over-achieving in the regular season at times. An argument that makes almost no sense. You bring up 03. Funny how you fail to mention they made the WCF....with Dirk going for over 30 and 10 in two game 7's....then Dirk getting hurt in game 3 and missing the rest of the series. In 06 you ignore that the Mavs were huge underdogs to even get out of the 2nd round.....

Actually take a look at the Mavs rosters. They have never been the best in the league. Not once. If you are going to hold Dirk to this standard, you better hold KG to this standard. Forget winning a playoff series, KG could barely win a playoff game. He had one great run in 04...then missed the playoffs the next 2 years. LOL

Second part....see above.

First part...why would I mention they made the WCF? You thought I was hiding it? Im talking to basketball fans. When I mention the 03 Mavs I assumed all that information comes to mind. I dont need to mention everything that happened. You watched it. I watched it.


But yep, 11 straight seasons of over 50 wins with plenty of roster and coaching changes. Some of the best playoff numbers of all time. Undefeated in game 7's. Some of the best elimination game numbers of all time. One of the most clutch playoff runs of all time. Its just worth nothing.

And...the hyperbole.


7 chances to win the title? You must ****ing out of your damn mind.

You act like I said they should have 7 rings.

The Mavs were contenders from 2002 to 2007 with at most 2 years put aside(05 and 04...though people were saying they could do things both years). They were the second seed last year. They contended for at least 5 years...and im sitting aside a season during which they won 58 games.

Lets not rerwite the usual meaning of contender to mean only the team or two teams most likely to win it all. They were contenders for 6 or 7 years the way the Suns were from 05-10. Lets not go back into arguing over what a word means...

The Mavs were an elite team for most of the last 10 years. If you want to use "elite" in place of contender to avoid a pointless argument feel free.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

And no it can't all be measured. And that's is why there is debate. The all have 4 first team all-nba honors. They all have an MVP. Two have rings. One was a great defender, the other 3 weren't. One was a great clutch performance, one was so-so and the other two weren't. 3 were first options, one was not. 3 guys have longevity, one does not. two guys redefined the power forward position. One was a great passer. the other 3 were good for their position.

People that say that so and so is head and shoulders or "easily" better than the other live in a dream world.

[Carbine]

I honestly cannot believe you think the Mavs have been championship contenders for 6-7 years - with those big men.

It doesn't matter if "people" were saying they could win in 6 or 7 years, it's what YOU think...just because other people say stupid shit doesn't make it true.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Bro.. it's not hard.

Offensively:

-Garnett was a low-mid 20s, middle-to-high efficiency scorer with all time great playmaking and average clutch play

-Dirk was a mid-high 20s, high efficiency scorer with mediocre playmaking[certainly worse than Garnett's] with all time great clutch play

So Dirk was the better scorer by a fair amount, an inferior playmaker by an even bigger margin, and a much better clutch player. Overall, the KG's playmaking and Dirk's scoring cancel each other out and were left with Dirk being the better offensive player in the clutch.. which gives him a sizeable advantage on offense.. lets say 20-25% better than KG.

Defensively:

-Garnett was a monster rebounder who led the league in rebounds multiple times, who played DPOY defense night in and night out and proved he could anchor an all time great defense.

-Dirk was an above average rebounder who never led the league in rebounds, but would always grab a good amount of boards.. his defense was average and he in no way could ever anchor a defense with it because, while his man defense was very good, his help defense, the most important part for a big man anchor was TERRIBLE.

What this leads to is KG being at least 50% better as far as defensive impact goes.

50%>25%.

You are trying with numbers. Hence the Robin Williams. "I give Byron a 42 but I can't dance to it."

Basketball doesn't work that way when players are extremely close.

[tpols]

You are trying with numbers. Hence the Robin Williams. "I give Byron a 42 but I can't dance to it."

Basketball doesn't work that way when players are extremely close.
No.. I broke down their overall impact on both sides of the ball including clutch play. Thats how you break down individual players.

What you are doing is using accolades and awards to determine who is better and those have a lot more to do with the teams you play on rather than what your individual impact is. Even the MVP award requires you to have a team capable of winning 30 or 40 games[minus the main option] because you need a 1 or 2 seed to get it.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

No.. I broke down their overall impact on both sides of the ball including clutch play. Thats how you break down individual players.

Yes, but you are being subjective and it is your opinion. Ask 100 peple on who is "better" and it will be about a 50-50 split. (And no I don't mean just here.) So if that is the case.... then they must be breaking it down differently than you.

Just on RealGM a few weeks ago:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1125587&view=viewpoll

Then you have Bill Simmons comments. And other journalists saying some of the same things that Simmons has said....

[DMAVS41]

Should 6 or 7 teams with the talent to compete be expected to win 6 or 7 rings? The Mavs contended for all but like 2 of the last 10 years. 6 or 7 of those they had people thinking they could win it all.




What about the KG experiment? Think I was unaware of him not winning in Minny? The second best record he ever had there....won 51 games. And he did it with 50 games of Wally and Joe Smith, Troy Hudson, rasho, Loren Woods, Kendall Gill, Anothony Peeler, 37 year old Rod Strickland, Gary Trent, Marc Jackson, and Igor Rakocevic. and won 51 games in the west.

And we cant forget the year he had Ricky davis for 36 games, Wally for 40 games, Marcus Banks for 40 games, Marc Blount for 42 games, Troy Hudsons 9ppg on 38% shooting for 36 games, Trenton Hassell as his second best player(I kinda liked him...underrated defender) with all too brief looks at Anthony Carter, Kandi Man, Justin Reed, and Eddie Griffin.

Or lets talk about when he had 18 games of Marbury 27 games of Terrell then Joe smith and Sam Mitchell with Dennis scott and Dean Garrett.

All under the great coaches Randy Wittman, Dwayne Casey, and Kevin Mchale wrapped around Flip.

Meanwhile Mavs fans were complaining about having the wrong mix of 5 all stars or how Nash and Finley were getting old(one of which won the next 2 MVPs and is still a star 6 years later) and task master Avery was too hard on Devin Harris who they had off the bench. KG has mike James and ricky Davis with Casey coaching and Mavs fans upset over Avery Johnsons use of Howard, Terry, and Kidd.

07 and 08 Josh Howard alone would have been the best 2 years KG got out of any teammate between them handing him the team in 99 and him leaving. Not of cassell played healthy more than like half of 05 but...he didnt.




I think my second topic here was in 01/02 and I suggested KG needed a guy like Stackhouse(at the time...good player) and I wasl aughed at for suggesting anyone else be the first option because people still had not accepted the difference between first option and best player(seems many still have not....). I find it funny that even with Pierce and Ray KG still led them in the playoffs in scoring though. As if he wasnt doing enough...






Ehhhh....the Mavs have not been a team full of scorers for quite a while now.



Second part....see above.

First part...why would I mention they made the WCF? You thought I was hiding it? Im talking to basketball fans. When I mention the 03 Mavs I assumed all that information comes to mind. I dont need to mention everything that happened. You watched it. I watched it.



And...the hyperbole.



You act like I said they should have 7 rings.

The Mavs were contenders from 2002 to 2007 with at most 2 years put aside(05 and 04...though people were saying they could do things both years). They were the second seed last year. They contended for at least 5 years...and im sitting aside a season during which they won 58 games.

Lets not rerwite the usual meaning of contender to mean only the team or two teams most likely to win it all. They were contenders for 6 or 7 years the way the Suns were from 05-10. Lets not go back into arguing over what a word means...

The Mavs were an elite team for most of the last 10 years. If you want to use "elite" in place of contender to avoid a pointless argument feel free.

You said they had 6 or 7 chances at the title. I disagree. The only way they could have possibly won in any of those years was for Dirk to something legendary or better to win.

In 06 they were huge dogs to beat the Spurs. Huge. They were the only team to beat the Spurs in a 3 year stretch....and it was in large part because of Dirk.

You don't have to go through the rosters of KG. I know they weren't great....but you act like he had even remotely the kind of success Dirk did. Dirk was busy leading his team to 50 plus wins each year and making runs in the playoffs....or playing great.

Its just not remotely fair to bring one up as a negative and then make excuses for the other.

Regardless, the Mavs were not contenders for 7 years. They had a few chances to make runs at the title as underdogs. If you actually look at the rosters and not the regular season win totals you would understand this. Almost no teams in NBA history have won titles with a player the likes of Jason Terry as the 2nd option. Almost no teams win titles without a 2nd all nba teammate. Dirk has had that in Nash...that is it.

It doesn't matter what people thought. Doesn't change reality. Who cares what Mavs fans were telling you 5 years ago? That is supposed to make the Mavs better than they were? LOL...that makes absolutely no sense at all.

11 straight years of over 50 wins
3 trips to the WCF
2 trips to the finals
1 title

I'd say that is pretty damn good considering the rosters and coaches Dirk has had. Especially playing against the loaded teams in the West. Only 3 teams have made the NBA finals since 98. Lakers/Spurs/Mavs.....

[kaiiu]

Barkley
Malone
Dirk
KG

[tpols]

Yes, but you are being subjective and it is your opinion. Ask 100 peple on who is "better" and it will be about a 50-50 split. (And no I don't mean just here.) So if that is the case.... then they must be breaking it down differently than you.
Or they're not breaking it down at all and their just voicing their subjective opinion based on the select games they have seen, what they have heard in the media, who their favorite player is etc.

I just broke down how KG's advantage on defense is bigger than Dirk's on offense.. and it was easy to do. If you think it is the reverse why cant you give a breakdown like I did but in Dirk's favor?

It's because you cant.. there's no way Dirk's offensive advantages over KG eclipse his defensive woes. KG was a great defensive and offensive player. Dirk was a legendary offensive player and a mediocre defensive player.

[DMAVS41]

Or they're not breaking it down at all and their just voicing their subjective opinion based on the select games they have seen, what they have heard in the media, who their favorite player is etc.

I just broke down how KG's advantage on defense is bigger than Dirk's on offense.. and it was easy to do. If you think it is the reverse why cant you give a breakdown like I did but in Dirk's favor?

It's because you cant.. there's no way Dirk's offensive advantages over KG eclipse his defensive woes. KG was a great defensive and offensive player. Dirk was a legendary offensive player and a mediocre defensive player.

While I'm usually not in favor of breaking down players like that because I do think you lose some of the unseen impact, I agree overall with this.

I will say that I would have loved to see KG in his prime get more chances to contend in the playoffs. Its a bit of an issue with this debate. Sadly, we'll never know.

I do disagree a bit about Dirk and KG canceling each other out on offense other than clutch. KG's playmaking is a bit overstated here. You also aren't factoring in Dirk's versatility enough either in my opinion.

Put it this way. If KG and Dirk were the exact same in terms of clutch play....I'd still take Dirk over KG on offense. So I don't think they cancel each other out. Throw out clutch play and I still think Dirk is the better offensive force.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

But you said their offense cancels each other out, except for Dirk's clutchness. Really? Hence why you are throwing out 50% or 25%, etc.

I imagine there are quite a few people that would disagree with you. That Dirk and KG do not cancel each other out offensively.

[ballerz]

I cannot put dirk above kg simply because of kg's defensive abilities

[tpols]

But you said their offense cancels each other out, except for Dirk's clutchness. Really? Hence why you are throwing out 50% or 25%, etc.

I imagine there are quite a few people that would disagree with you. That Dirk and KG do not cancel each other out offensively.
I meant that, during the regular course of a game, Dirk and Garnett are pretty much equals offensively. Dirk provides better scoring and Garnett provides better playmaking. Thats what I meant by canceling out. During the last couple minutes of games, however, Dirk is considerably better than KG. Like a lot. Probably 30-40% better. But those last few minutes are only a small part of a basketball game. They are very important but I wouldn't say they are overall more important than the rest of the game. It's that clutch boost though that gives Dirk a 25% edge on offense.

Then when you look at defense, KG was the better defender, rebounder, and clutch defensive player. Obviously clutch defense is less important than clutch offense in many cases but I'm just mentioning it. Point is, Garnett is better at EVERYTHING on defense than Dirk but Dirk is not better at everything on offense as compared to KG.. as KG has a sizeable advantage in playmaking.

[DMAVS41]

I meant that, during the regular course of a game, Dirk and Garnett are pretty much equals offensively. Dirk provides better scoring and Garnett provides better playmaking. Thats what I meant by canceling out. During the last couple minutes of games, however, Dirk is considerably better than KG. Like a lot. Probably 30-40% better. But those last few minutes are only a small part of a basketball game. They are very important but I wouldn't say they are overall more important than the rest of the game. It's that clutch boost though that gives Dirk a 25% edge on offense.

Then when you look at defense, KG was the better defender, rebounder, and clutch defensive player. Obviously clutch defense is less important than clutch offense in many cases but I'm just mentioning it. Point is, Garnett is better at EVERYTHING on defense than Dirk but Dirk is not better at everything on offense as compared to KG.. as KG has a sizeable advantage in playmaking.

I don't disagree much, although I don't think KG and Dirk are equal offensively minus clutch. I don't think KG's playmaking makes up the difference.

Not a huge difference, but I think Dirk brings more to the table.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

I meant that, during the regular course of a game, Dirk and Garnett are pretty much equals offensively. Dirk provides better scoring and Garnett provides better playmaking. Thats what I meant by canceling out. During the last couple minutes of games, however, Dirk is considerably better than KG. Like a lot. Probably 30-40% better. But those last few minutes are only a small part of a basketball game. They are very important but I wouldn't say they are overall more important than the rest of the game. It's that clutch boost though that gives Dirk a 25% edge on offense.

And I imagine that many would feel that they don't cancel each other out for the first 40+ minutes of the game. That Dirk is still better offensively during that time. And then "clutchness" comes into play from that point on.

See?

You think they cancel each other out. I imagine other people would disagree with you. What criteria are you going to use? EXACTLY. Everyone has their own criteria for their subjective opinion anyway.

I just showed you a poll on RealGM. They thought Dirk was better, but not by much. In fact it came out to be 46% to 43%. And that was with over 250 people voting.

They must have thought that **something** of Dirk outweighs Kg's defensive abilities. Or as you said since they don't have your opinion, they must be brainwashed or some such......

It is not all about numbers. Or even ability. There are so many things that are intangible. You cannot quantify. It is about preference

[Round Mound]

Prime Barkley any other PF. Period :sleeping :violin:

[ballerz]

Prime Barkley any other PF. Period :sleeping :violin:
What a surprise :rolleyes:

[tpols]

And I imagine that many would feel that they don't cancel each other out for the first 40+ minutes of the game. That Dirk is still better offensively during that time. And then "clutchness" comes into play from that point on.

See?

You think they cancel each other out. I imagine other people would disagree with you. What criteria are you going to use? EXACTLY. Everyone has their own criteria for their subjective opinion anyway.

Even if you say Dirk is better offensively throughout the normal course of a game, how much can it be by? He gathers more of his points in the clutch so their scoring volume is very similar. Dirk may be slightly more efficient.. Does that small efficiency boost out do KG's much better playmaking? Were talking double the assists here. Even if you say Dirk throughout the normal course of a game is.. 10 percent better...that makes him 35-40% better offensively[which many would agree is too high to begin with]. That STILL doesn't eclipse the 50+% advantage KG has on defense. And thats a conservative figure.. the gap is probably around 80% meaning KG leaves almost twice the impact on the defensive end.


I just showed you a poll on RealGM. They thought Dirk was better, but not by much. In fact it came out to be 46% to 43%. And that was with over 250 people voting.

When was the poll taken? Dont tell me right after Dirk won the ring.. you have to be able to see the flaw in taking a poll like that right after such an event. It's called living in the moment.

[Smoke117]

Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Charles Barkley
Dirk Nowitzki

[DMAVS41]

Even if you say Dirk is better offensively throughout the normal course of a game, how much can it be by? He gathers more of his points in the clutch so their scoring volume is very similar. Dirk may be slightly more efficient.. Does that small efficiency boost out do KG's much better playmaking? Were talking double the assists here. Even if you say Dirk throughout the normal course of a game is.. 10 percent better...that makes him 35-40% better offensively[which many would agree is too high to begin with]. That STILL doesn't eclipse the 50+% advantage KG has on defense. And thats a conservative figure.. the gap is probably around 80% meaning KG leaves almost twice the impact on the defensive end.

When was the poll taken? Dont tell me right after Dirk won the ring.. you have to be able to see the flaw in taking a poll like that right after such an event. It's called living in the moment.


That poll was just about career. Not the players. I think there is a difference. Dirk already has the better career and unless something changes, that gap will only continue to grow. So that poll really doesn't have any relevance to this discussion.

I'd imagine if it was changed to the better player...and not career...that KG would get closer to 75% of the votes. Not that it proves anything, but that poll at real gm isn't of much use to this.

I'm assuming we are all talking about the actual players and not their career ranking or all time rank. Because if we are talking about careers, there is no way in hell KG has "clearly" or "easily" had a better career. That statement is even more of a joke if we are going by careers.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

That poll was just about career. Not the players. I think there is a difference. Dirk already has the better career and unless something changes, that gap will only continue to grow. So that poll really doesn't have any relevance to this discussion.

I'd imagine if it was changed to the better player...and not career...that KG would get closer to 75% of the votes. Not that it proves anything, but that poll at real gm isn't of much use to this.

I'm assuming we are all talking about the actual players and not their career ranking or all time rank. Because if we are talking about careers, there is no way in hell KG has "clearly" or "easily" had a better career. That statement is even more of a joke if we are going by careers.

I imagine Duncan meant career. Of course he didn't spell out any criteria with his question, he just said to rank them.

And I believe most knew it was career when you have posts such as:


Peak

1. KG
2. Barkley
3. Malone
4. Dirk

All-time list/Career

1. Malone
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Barkley
They are all on the same tier. When its all said and done:

1. Dirk
2. KG
3. Malone
4. Barkley

Peak Barkley was better than all those other 3 guys.
Peak:
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk

All time Wise:
Barkley/Malone
Malone/Barkley
KG

So, Barkley is my pick for best, and honestly, I could put the next 3 in any order.

I've never seen less consensus in a thread. The rankings are all over the place. Here's mine:

1) KG - only because has the best defense.
2/3 Barkley/Dirk
4 Malone - don't care if he's the second leading scorer - gimme clutch scoring in the playoffs. Not that KG's as good as Barkley/Dirk in that department but his defense is the best of the 4.

Man most of yall want to debate just to debate. Like I said earlier and it still applies, there are some that think Dirk's offense outweighs KG's defense. And there are MANY who believe Dirk is/was the better player and had the better career than Garnett. Besides Simmons, now FoxSports just updated their overall rankings:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-power-forwards-in-NBA-history

The rankings aren't as cut and dried as many on this message board want it to be.

[DMAVS41]

I imagine Duncan meant career. Of course he didn't spell out any criteria with his question, he just said to rank them.

And I believe most knew it was career when you have posts such as:



Man most of yall want to debate just to debate. Like I said earlier and it still applies, there are some that think Dirk's offense outweighs KG's defense. And there are MANY who believe Dirk is/was the better player and had the better career than Garnett. Besides Simmons, now FoxSports just updated their overall rankings:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-power-forwards-in-NBA-history

The rankings aren't as cut and dried as many on this message board want it to be.

Oh I agree. I'm not saying its cut and dried. I just think there is a difference between evaluating a player and evaluating a career. Dirk should be ahead of KG on all time lists.....but I think KG deserves an edge as a slightly better player.

That is just my opinion though.

I personally think ranking players and ranking careers is different.

[Fatal9]

KG
Barkley
Dirk
Malone

Really close. KG is the only one I usually have no problem ranking as the best out of the 4, the other three are difficult.

[creepingdeath]

It's not remotely close when you include rebounding, defense, intimidation, steals, etc.
This clearly shows us that the stupidity in this thread knows no boundaries.

[Yung D-Will]

This clearly shows us that the stupidity in this thread knows no boundaries.

Intimidation actually isn't as stupid as you think . Shaq had people intimidated to take it up on him just because if they did he'd make sure they hit the ground hard

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Why is he not the better offensive player?

That comes down to a few things. But mostly the issue is...if offense is offensive ability...or if offense is scoring personally.

Dirk is a greater offensive threat.

But its not much greater. Not nearly by the difference in their shooting ability. Though I guess "much" is hard to define. Its not like Dirk has been a Jordan type taking over and scoring at will year after year after year. This is a guy who put up 20 points on 38% shooting vs a team Carlos Boozer destroyed. Couple years ago he put up 24 on 48% shooting won 51 games and went out in the first round in 5 games. This year he averaged what? 23 a game or so? One year he did 21 or 22. Been under 25 a few times. Hes a knockdown shooter who can barely be defended...but a bigtime "Go win it for us" takeover and go hard scorer he has not been on a regular basis. People talk up him scoring 25 or 26 a game in the playoffs as if thats a lot for a player on his level. An MVP bigman whos entire NBA life depends on scoring? He should be scoring 25+ a game in the playoffs.

Dirk lost in the playoffs what...10 years in a row? He was usually showing up and getting his numbers but its not like he was going down dropping 40ppg. Hes had big playoff games lately where he goes 4-10. got knocked out going 8-21. Got knocked out going 2-13 for 11 points. Went 2-14 in the finals game afeter that collapse vs the Heat in 06.

Hes a great great scorer. But an always on hide the wome nand children unstoppable beast he has not been. Its not like...KG as a scorer vs Shaq or even Kobe in his prime.

KG is a great offensive player. Dirk is greater. But itsn ot like one is a 4 and the other a 9. If Shaq/Jordan/Bird/Magic types are 10s on offense...

Dirk is what? 8? With KG a....7?

Dirk is a great scorer. But 3 weeks of hot shooting dont change that fact that hes been beaten time and time again while proving either to not be a true elite scorer...or that he didnt have the desire to display it.

What Dirk is...is a true elite shooter. A shooter with few peers in all history.

But hes not some al ltime dominant offensive player. Hes not all that far ahead as an offensive player. Might be another thing id use the dollar or a dollar and change analogy.

Dirk went out without a fight too many times to act like he can just takeover with his shooting whenever he wants to. People will say "He had 29 points!" or something and its like...

And? Hes a superstar MVP bigman who does nothing at a high level but score. He puts up 24 or 25 a game. Why is him having 29 impressive? By his standards?

Dirk has always held back his scoring. Its one reason I dont think the gap between he and KG as offensive players is as wide as it could be.

Both of them could score a lot more than they have. And for all the claims of Dirks clutchness(some...by me) hes had some straight up crushing defeats in his day.

Hes never just been a lock to take over the game. Or to even try. Hes a little more passive at times than id like. Ive seen too many 4-14 or 9 of 19 games his team lost when it counted to buy him as that. KG goes 8-19 and gets knocked out its him not being a big moment player. Dirk does it its...what?

Dirk going 2-11 guarded by swingmen? Or the game coming down to a close with Tony Parker one on one and he shoots a long fadeaway? How does that happen?

Something is just off with him at times. He might make the Thunder look like children...he might go 4-15 as we get knocked out by a worse team.

Hes never seemed like he was just gonna go takeover the game whenever we needed it. Or even try.

He never pushed hs offense as far as I think he needed. Not to justify him being miles beyond KG on offense. A guy who was also one of the more talented scorers in the league.

Hes better. But not by as much as he should have been.

You're trying to be objective, I see it, but this is totally out of touch.
The difference as far as offensive impact between the two is huge, I really don't see how you can suggest the opposite. Dirk is actually much closer to jordon in offensive impact than Garnett to him, and all the numbers confirm that.
You might focus on when he didn't play well and his shot was off, but at the end the day NOBODY in history scores more and more efficiently than Dirk in the playoffs, sign that those games were exceptions
In the meantime, Dallas has always been one of the top offensive teams in the league, also post Nash when the offensive talent was not as huge and the offence was totally built around him.
I know you're not a numbers guy, but there are reasons for that:
- Dirk can score at bunches and efficiently if left in single coverage
- the defence is already pre-rotaing and is focused on him, opening space for his teamates
- he just generates offence receiving the ball because of the attention he gets. We can discuss if Garnett is a better passer, but he doesn't break the balance as Dirk so he doesn't create the same opportunity. I know you'll bring his multiple 5apg seasons, but that becaus he was playing like a guard, handlin the ball too much and passing to the shooters for assist that DO NOT have the same impact, because are just passes to the shooter, are not really creating the opportunity
- because of his shot AND his ability to take it off balance AND his fakes his ability of putting the ball on the floor is much more lethal than Garnett's. And I'm not sure how you come out that Garnett is a better finisher

Really, what has Garnett ever done to be considered such an elite offensive player? There are a lot of people fantasising about what he could have done, but there's little focus on what he actually did.

PS: I'm one of those who, after seeing the '02 serie, thought that Dirk was a much better player.

[Best Shot 41]

1.Dirk
2.Malone
3.Barkley
4.KG

[Yung D-Will]

Updated

1. Barkley
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Malone

[moe94]

lol @ people arguing that Dirk is better than KG because of his offensive advantage, when their disparity in defense triples it and makes the comparison asinine.

[East_Stone_Ya]

Malone....then the rest

[Yung D-Will]

lol @ people arguing that Dirk is better than KG because of his offensive advantage, when their disparity in defense triples it and makes the comparison asinine.
Still, there were a lot of critics of Kg's abilty to take over games ,when he was the main man in Minny

[NLZ]

1. Malone
2. Garnett
3. Barkley
4. Dirk

[TheCorporation]

I would take peak Barkley over peak Garnett pretty easily, he was looking like potentially the GOAT offensive player.

Who? Barkley?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=318195

Charles - Once
KG - Zero

[TonyMontana]

The answer is clearly Dirk.

He is the only one who has carried a team to a championship. And it's not just about winning a ring either, the ring is just a way to showcase that he is a winner. It's the fact that Dallas was consistently a 50 win team for his entire career despite never having an amazing supporting cast. Dirks mere presence makes you relevant.

This cannot be said for a guy like KG who missed the playoffs for consecutive years in his prime. A team with Prime Dirk would NEVER miss the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

My favorite is Kblaze saying Dirk went out without a fight too many times...when Dirk is one of the best elimination game players in NBA history. With an undefeated game 7 record...

But he's not a stats or facts guy...so I guess that makes sense in his world.

[Purch]

Who? Barkley?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=318195

Charles - Once
KG - Zero
Why would you base your whole thread on a number like 26.5 ppg? What made you think that was the best place to start from

[DMAVS41]

The answer is clearly Dirk.

He is the only one who has carried a team to a championship. And it's not just about winning a ring either, the ring is just a way to showcase that he is a winner. It's the fact that Dallas was consistently a 50 win team for his entire career despite never having an amazing supporting cast. Dirks mere presence makes you relevant.

This cannot be said for a guy like KG who missed the playoffs for consecutive years in his prime. A team with Prime Dirk would NEVER miss the playoffs.

I don't think it's clear, but I would take Dirk.

Just have to laugh at people acting like it's clear that it's KG....they seriously need to watch more basketball or read the stat sheet a little more closely.

[moe94]

Just have to laugh at people acting like it's clear that it's KG....they seriously need to watch more basketball or read the stat sheet a little more closely.

You're as biased as anyone, man.

Do you think Dirk's peak is better than KG's?

[TheCorporation]

Why would you base your whole thread on a number like 26.5 ppg? What made you think that was the best place to start from

I wanted a number that wasn't too low, or too high. I didn't want a number like 20 or 25 where everyone and their mom has done it at least once. I also didn't want a number too high like 28-30 where only a very select few have done it. I wanted somewhere in between 25 and 28. Is it not interesting to you how many players that were considered great scorers, yet only achieved the mark 3 times at best, and for others, not even once?

[DMAVS41]

You're as biased as anyone, man.

Do you think Dirk's peak is better than KG's?

I'm biased for sure, like everyone, but not as much as someone claiming that KG is on a different level.

What was KG's peak? 04?

Hard to say. I'm not sure exactly what year was peak Dirk. I think maybe 09 might have been the year he was at his absolute peak as a player.

It's a tossup to me...I'd probably lean towards 09 Dirk as the player I'd want though.

[TheCorporation]

As for this thread, man, this has got to be one of the toughest debated questions.

Rank the following power forwards, from best to worst:

Malone, Barkley, Garnett, Nowitzki.

As for me, hmm...I'd go:

Malone
Garnett
Barkley
Nowitzki

(Assuming we are having the player for his career).

Having Dirk and Barkley ever so slightly below Malone and KG isn't a knock on them by any means. They are all so close, all in the same tier more or less, and I could see an argument for any one of them at the #1 spot, as the debates in this thread are indicative of our opinions. No one will agree here, and that's just fine.

I just have a hard time putting someone over super longevity and automatic Karl Malone.

KM32 is second only to KAJ in total career points scored. He has grabbed more defensive rebounds than any player in NBA history, and has shot and made more free throws than anyone else in NBA history. He also managed to earn 2 MVPs; Jordan fans, I know what you're going to say :P

Malone's peak season he put up 31 and 11 on 56%. He put up 20/10 for 12 straight years. His career numbers are simply astounding. Career averages of 25 and 10 with .516 FG%

[Purch]

I wanted a number that wasn't too low, or too high. I didn't want a number like 20 or 25 where everyone and their mom has done it at least once. I also didn't want a number too high like 28-30 where only a very select few have done it. I wanted somewhere in between 25 and 28. Is it not interesting to you how many players that were considered great scorers, yet only achieved the mark 3 times at best, and for others, not even once?
I feel like a number this high, penalizes players who are willing to sacrifice their numbers for the sake of the team. A number this high rewards players in specific roles like A.I, kobe and Melo, but it would punish guys like Timmy, who were excellent scorers, but played within the offense.

[TheCorporation]

I feel like a number this high, penalizes players who are willing to sacrifice their numbers for the sake of the team. A number this high rewards players in specific roles like A.I, kobe and Melo, but it would punish guys like Timmy, who were excellent scorers, but played within the offense.

I see what you're saying, but some people that were never able to reach a number this high even once probably didn't have it in them. If I look at someone, say Ray Allen, a great scorer and the best 3-point shooter of all time, and I see that even during his best statiscal season (as far as ppg go) and he did not reach that level, it probably was best for his team that he didn't go for more.

I also feel that some players were able to score more because of the team they were on. A perfect example that comes to mind is Jordan with Pippen and Rodman, (or before, with Horrace Grant) and also, someone like LeBron, who early in his career, was given the green light. We must also realize that some players were able to achieve a high mark, WHILE still playing with another good/great scorer. Examples of this would be LeBron (with Wade) Durant (with Westbrook) Chamberlin (with West, vice-versa), Shaq with Kobe (and vice-versa) etc.

[TheCorporation]

I don't think it's clear, but I would take Dirk.

Just have to laugh at people acting like it's clear that it's KG....they seriously need to watch more basketball or read the stat sheet a little more closely.

I agree that no choice is clear, and that we all have our own opinions on this matter. As I mentioned earlier, I could see a case being made for any one of them.

[joeyjoejoe]

Malone
Barkley
Dirk
Kg

But it's crazy close all were incredible forces

[Alan Ogg]

Without relooking at stats, I'll go with:

Malone
KG
Barkley
Dirk

[moe94]

Without relooking at stats, I'll go with:

Malone
KG
Barkley
Dirk

If you looked at stats, your answer would probably remain the same.

[TheCorporation]

Without relooking at stats, I'll go with:

Malone
KG
Barkley
Dirk

My exact order, too :applause:

[Purch]

It's interesting that I see people ranking Barkley and Dirk the lowest. In my view they're the guys you could trust you to get a bucket regardless of the defense. However, understand the ranking when you take defense into account

[Purch]

Also, you have to wonder if Kevin McHale would be in this convo if he had a team where he had to be the first option consistently

[Micku]

Also, you have to wonder if Kevin McHale would be in this convo if he had a team where he had to be the first option consistently

Maybe. He had his chance, but didn't really do that much.

But as you said, if he was the first option consistently. He does have the best post moves (best post player ever imo), probably the hardest to guard, the second most efficient scorer after Barkley, and is the second most versatile defender. He is the weakest rebounder, but he often guard SFs and sometimes big SGs to take the pressure off of Bird, so it didn't give him room to rebound defensively. He was a solid offensive rebounder tho (on par or slightly better than Bird).

Anyway, peak Mchale on 86 and 87 pre injury was pretty unstoppable scoring wise since he can take it inside and out and was probably the team's best defender. I think he was on par with the best individual because you can't stop him from scoring and he was an awesome defender. He could probably lead his own team, but we don't know how much could he contribute to the team.

He could've been a Bob Mcadoo, who nobody remember or mention. In his prime he was doing over 30 ppg and over 12 rebounds. Three straight scoring titles and he even won MVP. Nobody ever mentions him. He wasn't on great teams aside from the Lakers outside of his prime.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

KG
Dirk
Chuck
Mailman

[CJ Mustard]

Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk

[AintNoSunshine]

Who cares they're neck and neck, Malone, Barkley and Dirk are all unstoppable forces on offense while Garnett is clearly the best defender

[DirkNowitzki41]

Who cares they're neck and neck, Malone, Barkley and Dirk are all unstoppable forces on offense while Garnett is clearly the best defender
:applause:

[TheCorporation]

It's interesting that I see people ranking Barkley and Dirk the lowest. In my view they're the guys you could trust you to get a bucket regardless of the defense. However, understand the ranking when you take defense into account

Well I can speak on my own list by saying that all four PFs are in the same tier, no doubt, and I could see a case being made for any of them. It would be insane to not include all four in the conversation, versus making a top 3 list of SGs and not adding Jordan, or a top 3 list of SFs and not adding Bird/LBJ, etc. But as for why I chose to respectfully but KG slightly above (I already mentioned why I put Malone above in a previous post) is simply because of both his longevity and defense.

PS: Small attempt at a funny trolling, Barkley shot too damn many threes! lol (@ a terrible clip, too).

[RoundMoundOfReb]

KG
Dirk/Barkley
Malone

[Pointguard]

This clearly shows us that the stupidity in this thread knows no boundaries.
CreepyDead, every professional sport makes a play on intimidation. You obviously have never played one if you think otherwise.

[kshutts1]

Super late to the thread, but KG shouldn't be ranked with these guys, but rather should be ranked with Duncan.

Then Malone, Barkley and Dirk can be lumped together.

[Purch]

Super late to the thread, but KG shouldn't be ranked with these guys, but rather should be ranked with Duncan.

Then Malone, Barkley and Dirk can be lumped together.
I disagree, when you look at Duncan's resume, you're looking at a top 10 player of all time. Even though its arguable if you're just comparing peaks of these players, wants you take accomplishments into consideration Duncan seperates himself from the pack

[eklip]

Dirk
KG
Barkley
Malone

[longhornfan1234]

Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk

[creepingdeath]

CreepyDead, every professional sport makes a play on intimidation. You obviously have never played one if you think otherwise.
So it took you over two years to respond to my post? Wow, you really showed me!
http://i.imgur.com/GkTCVJY.gif

[DMAVS41]

So it took you over two years to respond to my post? Wow, you really showed me!
http://i.imgur.com/GkTCVJY.gif


:roll: :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

Serious question - why isn't Bob Pettit above them all?

10 All NBA First team selections

2x league MVP (one with scoring + rebounding title, the other with scoring title)

1xFMVP NBA Champion, 50pt NBA Finals performance 19 of his teams 20pts in 4th quarter alone, 5 NBA Finals appearances

26.4ppg, 16.2rpg (~18 TRB%) 3apg

[crisoner]

1. Malone
2. KG
3. Barkley
4. Dirk

[DMAVS41]

Serious question - why isn't Bob Pettit above them all?

10 All NBA First team selections

2x league MVP (one with scoring + rebounding title, the other with scoring title)

1xFMVP NBA Champion, 50pt NBA Finals performance 19 of his teams 20pts in 4th quarter alone, 5 NBA Finals appearances

26.4ppg, 16.2rpg (~18 TRB%) 3apg

He very well should be. It's just hard to accurately talk about a player in which most here have never heard of...let alone seen.

On paper...it seems Pettit should be the clear cut 2nd best pf ever.

[CavaliersFTW]

He very well should be. It's just hard to accurately talk about a player in which most here have never heard of...let alone seen.

On paper...it seems Pettit should be the clear cut 2nd best pf ever.
I made a mix about him recently - I was skeptical if his abilities would be modern enough for people to take seriously at first because he played more than half of his career in the 1950's but he actually did have a thoroughly modern game, people should watch his footage and take notice of his career accolades, the guy could play and I do not think he should be excluded or written off of these types of all-time PF lists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdeiZRW7gSo

And I'm guessing your referring to Duncan as #1? If so, than yeah I'd agree Bob Pettit on paper, appears to be #2 unless I'm forgetting someone. The other 4 mentioned in the OP are all elite all-time no question though - but looking at Pettits resume - he's up there for sure and should at the very least be getting a nod here.

[DMAVS41]

I made a mix about him recently - I was skeptical if his abilities would be modern enough for people to take seriously at first because he played more than half of his career in the 1950's but he actually did have a thoroughly modern game, people should watch his footage and take notice of his career accolades, the guy could play and I do not think he should be excluded or written off of these types of all-time PF lists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdeiZRW7gSo

And I'm guessing your referring to Duncan as #1? If so, than yeah I'd agree Bob Pettit on paper, appears to be #2 unless I'm forgetting someone. The other 4 mentioned in the OP are all elite all-time no question though - but looking at Pettits resume - he's up there for sure and should at the very least be getting a nod here.

From what I have seen generally.

It's Duncan the clear cut number 1 PF...and rightfully so.

And then you see KG, Pettit, Dirk, Malone, and Barkley in just about every order imaginable...and again I thing that makes sense.

[lakerspng]

KG - best two way player in the bunch, amazing peak, championship
Malone - consistency, excellence, longevity and dominance. a championship would put him on top.
Barkley - highest peak of the group, if you didn't see young barkley, you really missed out
Dirk - championship is the only reason he's ranked with these legends, if not for 2011, he'd be a tier below despite his incredible career.

[Pointguard]

So it took you over two years to respond to my post? Wow, you really showed me!
http://i.imgur.com/GkTCVJY.gif
A word for the wise, if your screename has creep in it, and you post a creepy gif, it's not a good look. But judging by your fan section, creep is obviously an accomplished theme you are working on.

[leMVP]

Pure abilities

1.Barkley
2.Malone
3.KG
4.Dirk

if you took stats and achievements overall (team and individual)

1.Dirk
2.KG
3.Malone
4.Barkley

[Purch]

Pure abilities

1.Barkley
2.Malone
3.KG
4.Dirk

if you took stats and achievements overall (team and individual)

1.Dirk
2.KG
3.Malone
4.Barkley
I see what you did there, but I feel like you should have separated Stats and achievements into 2 separate categories. Because if you're looking at stats its very hard to argue Barkley that low

[Pointguard]

Pure abilities

1.Barkley
2.Malone
3.KG
4.Dirk

if you took stats and achievements overall (team and individual)

1.Dirk
2.KG
3.Malone
4.Barkley

Dirk is by far the worse if you by stats. Its not even close.

[TheCorporation]

KG - best two way player in the bunch, amazing peak, championship
Malone - consistency, excellence, longevity and dominance. a championship would put him on top.
Barkley - highest peak of the group, if you didn't see young barkley, you really missed out
Dirk - championship is the only reason he's ranked with these legends, if not for 2011, he'd be a tier below despite his incredible career.

Agreed with all of this. :applause:

[DMAVS41]

Dirk is by far the worse if you by stats. Its not even close.

What? Dirk has by far better stats than KG when it matters...

ISH...where meaningless regular season games matter more than the playoffs...

[eklip]

Dirk is by far the worse if you by stats. Its not even close.
Dirk has the best playoff stats and only Barkley is close.

[Pointguard]

What? Dirk has by far better stats than KG when it matters...

ISH...where meaningless regular season games matter more than the playoffs...
When you go in the HOF they quote your regular season numbers on your plaque. Most fans across the board know who is the all time leader in points scored and that Kobe is approaching that. Everybody does the regular season - not just ish.

Dirk basically dogged it during the regular season. He was fresher than all the other greats because he didn't play much defense and never averaged an honest ten rebounds per game during the regular season. If you looked at the game in totality, every possession offense and defense for the 82 regular season and however many playoff games, Dirk is definitely not in the discussion. If you take away his last playoff run he's definitely not in the discussion.

Dirk never had the capacity to lead the league in any raw category (lets be honest, we are only talking about scoring) simply because he didn't have the endurance. He's the super one dimensional player that never was the top scorer in the league. KG could have gotten Dirk's numbers and much much more in the playoffs if he took the RS easy and rarely guarded anybody of significance in the postseason.

[DMAVS41]

When you go in the HOF they quote your regular season numbers on your plaque. Most fans across the board know who is the all time leader in points scored and that Kobe is approaching that. Everybody does the regular season - not just ish.

Dirk basically dogged it during the regular season. He was fresher than all the other greats because he didn't play much defense and never averaged an honest ten rebounds per game during the regular season. If you looked at the game in totality, every possession offense and defense for the 82 regular season and however many playoff games, Dirk is definitely not in the discussion. If you take away his last playoff run he's definitely not in the discussion.

Dirk never had the capacity to lead the league in any raw category (lets be honest, we are only talking about scoring) simply because he didn't have the endurance. He's the super one dimensional player that never was the top scorer in the league. KG could have gotten Dirk's numbers and much much more in the playoffs if he took the RS easy and rarely guarded anybody of significance in the postseason.


this is completely false. you want the real truth? Dirk just doesn't stat pad. that's it. he doesn't give a shit about his numbers and just plays to win. he doesn't stay in games the Mavs were up 20 points in the regular season.

the only difference between dirk in the regular season and playoffs is minutes played.

his per 36 production is nearly identical...made all the more impressive considering it's against better competition.

23/8/3 vs 23/9/2...that's regular season vs playoffs production...LOL

And dogged it? Dirk was the epitome of consistency and greatness in the regular season for 11 straight seasons. He rarely missed a game and led the Mavs to 50 or more wins 11 straight times (done only 4 times in NBA history)

The truth is that people that actually know the game don't give a shit about meaningless regular season games against the ****ing bobcats and all the many other terrible teams in the league.

People that know the game want to see what these guys do when the other team is actually trying hard and cares as much.

And with that...

Dirk has career playoff averages of 26/10/3 on 58.4% TS

KG? 19/11/4 52% TS...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

And people claim Dirk is only relevant because of his title? ROFL...Dirk was the better playoff player for years...KG needed a team way better than Dirk ever had to win a title in 08...


Seriously...how were the Mavs winning so much with just average rosters compared to the other elite teams if Dirk wasn't that valuable? Why did his teams routinely fall apart without him? Like in 11 when they went 2-7 without him and in the playoffs were straight up dreadful without him on the court...They were something like 13 points worse per 100 possessions without him offensively...and 4 points worse defensively.

But yea...he just isn't that valuable...


And why do you people insist on taking away things that Dirk has done? It makes no sense. Winning a title without an all nba teammate is a huge accomplishment as a player. Something that is very rare.

[MavsSuperFan]

Malone is a choker. I remember thinking during the late 90s that his choking especially at the ft line was a major factor in them failing to finish the deal and win a championship. But he does deserve a break in the fact that he lost to jordan.

Barkley- I feel really bad for him as he just was unfortunate enough to be in the jordan era. But I think the fact that he never worked hard to stay in shape should be counted against him. Probably could have extended his career.

Dirk- Im biased towards him. Worst defense of the 4, but imo the best offensive player. He is also the clutchest of the 4 and his 2011 playoff run was amazing. he willed his team to wins against the lakers and okc. He was less amazing in the finals but still amazing.

KG- Incredible defender, but imo kind of a choker who won a title as a second offensive option.

Primes/peaks

Barkley
KG
Malone
Dirk

Alltime/accomplishments

Dirk
Barkley
KG
Malone

[Pointguard]

this is completely false. you want the real truth? Dirk just doesn't stat pad. that's it. he doesn't give a shit about his numbers and just plays to win. he doesn't stay in games the Mavs were up 20 points in the regular season.

the only difference between dirk in the regular season and playoffs is minutes played.

his per 36 production is nearly identical...made all the more impressive considering it's against better competition.

23/8/3 vs 23/9/2...that's regular season vs playoffs production...LOL

And dogged it? Dirk was the epitome of consistency and greatness in the regular season for 11 straight seasons. He rarely missed a game and led the Mavs to 50 or more wins 11 straight times (done only 4 times in NBA history)

The truth is that people that actually know the game don't give a shit about meaningless regular season games against the ****ing bobcats and all the many other terrible teams in the league.

People that know the game want to see what these guys do when the other team is actually trying hard and cares as much.

And with that...

Dirk has career playoff averages of 26/10/3 on 58.4% TS

KG? 19/11/4 52% TS...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

And people claim Dirk is only relevant because of his title? ROFL...Dirk was the better playoff player for years...KG needed a team way better than Dirk ever had to win a title in 08...
The majority of KG's playoff games were when his focus was defense and rebounding. KG is a top five defender ever and was part of one of the greatest defensive teams ever - And this came to light the very first time he was given a defensive coach. The playoffs are mostly about defense and rebounding according to most of the greatest coaches of the game. Its obvious he wasn't being compared to Malone and Barkley on those grounds either. If you throw in assist as total points, KG is in the same tier as all three. Not one is in the tier below KG in defense. KG was also a top tier rebounder as well. Only Barkley could pass like him. KG was also culture changer and his leadership is definitely above the rest as well.

I don't recall any of the four as being stat padders? Are you suggesting something? And since when do people not care about a good game being played by guys earning millions. They are supposed to play hard all the time. Its an insult to the game to not play hard. That's the integrity of the game, or anything you get paid to do.

He can't take credit for 50 wins a year when he didn't even go all out. Or we can flip it and say he didn't even have to play hard to win 50 because his teams were constructed very well.

[CJ Mustard]

KG- Incredible defender, but imo kind of a choker who won a title as a second offensive option.


Pierce scored one more PPG in the regular season in 3 more MPG, and scored less in the Playoffs (in the same amount of minutes). This myth that he was the Celtics best offensive player needs to end.

[DMAVS41]

The majority of KG's playoff games were when his focus was defense and rebounding. KG is a top five defender ever and was part of one of the greatest defensive teams ever - And this came to light the very first time he was given a defensive coach. The playoffs are mostly about defense and rebounding according to most of the greatest coaches of the game. Its obvious he wasn't being compared to Malone and Barkley on those grounds either. If you throw in assist as total points, KG is in the same tier as all three. Not one is in the tier below KG in defense. KG was also a top tier rebounder as well. Only Barkley could pass like him. KG was also culture changer and his leadership is definitely about the rest as well.

I don't recall any of the four as being stat padders? Are you suggesting something? And since when do people not care about a good game being played by guys earning millions. They are supposed to play hard all the time. Its an insult to the game to not play hard. That's the integrity of the game, or anything you get paid to do.

He can't take credit for 50 wins a year when he didn't even go all out. Or we can flip it and say he didn't even have to play hard to win 50 because his teams were constructed very well.

If you think Dirk dogs it in the regular season then you are just ignorant. Nothing could be further from the truth. He just didn't play big minutes like he had to in the playoffs.

In case you weren't aware, the competition in the regular season at times is a joke. Dirk led teams were blowing a lot of teams out during his prime. And Dirk didn't stay in games...he never cared about stats or anything like that.

You talk about KG's teams needing him in the regular season. Well, historically Dirk improves his teams more than KG does in the regular season. I don't make much of that, but it does kill your assertion that KG does more. Dirk improves his teams offense in the regular season by 9.3 points. KG improves it by 5.5 points. Dirk improves his teams defense by 1.9 points. KG improves it by 3.9 points.

If the Mavs were so good without Dirk? Why did they get so much better when he's on the floor...especially offensively? Doesn't it seem odd that a player "dogging it" would have such a profound impact not only statistically, but on wins and losses as well?

[Pointguard]

Help me out with this career achievement/accomplishment thing.

Kevin Garnett
Only player in NBA history to reach at least 25,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 steals and 1,500 blocks in his career

Only player in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons (1999

[creepingdeath]

A word for the wise, if your screename has creep in it, and you post a creepy gif, it's not a good look. But judging by your fan section, creep is obviously an accomplished theme you are working on.
http://i.imgur.com/JQpldPU.gif
Almost as imaginative as calling me CreepyDead. Damn, it feels so bad to be mocked by someone with the basketball knowledge of an infant.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Help me out with this career achievement/accomplishment thing.

Kevin Garnett
Only player in NBA history to reach at least 25,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 steals and 1,500 blocks in his career

Only player in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons (1999–2000—2004–05)

Only player in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and 4 assists per game for 9 consecutive seasons (1998–99—2006–07)

Of course we can add he did these things while being on the all defensive teams.

Third player in NBA history to lead his team in all five major statistics (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks) in the same season: Minnesota Timberwolves, 2002–03

NBA Champion: 2008
Olympic gold medal: 2000
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2004
NBA Defensive Player of the Year: 2008
NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2003
15-time NBA All-Star: 1997—2011, 2013
Selected to 14 consecutive All-Star teams (1997—2011) (no game in 1999 due to lockout).
Selected, but did not play due to injury in 2008.
9-time All-NBA selection:

First Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2008
Second Team: 2001, 2002, 2005
Third Team: 1999, 2007

12-time All-Defensive:

First Team: 2000—2005, 2008—2009, 2011
Second Team: 2006—2007, 2012

NBA All-Rookie selection:

Second Team: 1996

Dirk - Please add since it feels incomplete

NBA champion: 2011
NBA Finals MVP: 2011
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2007
11

[tpols]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]

Dirk - Please add since it feels incomplete

NBA champion: 2011
NBA Finals MVP: 2011
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2007
11

[tpols]

the fact that KG on paper should shut down Dirk/Mavs in the 02 series...Oh wait...we actually saw that play out.
.
How is one man supposed to shutdown a 25/7 Michael Finley, a 21/9/4 Steve Nash, a 13/5 Nick Van Exel, on top of a 33/16 Dirk? :oldlol:


this is Dirk's mediocre help..

[DMAVS41]

How is one man supposed to shutdown a 25/7 Michael Finley, a 21/9/4 Steve Nash, a 13/5 Nick Van Exel, on top of a 33/16 Dirk? :oldlol:


this is Dirk's mediocre help..

You act like KG had no help.

22/6/5 billups and a 20/7/2 wally

How is Dirk supposed to win when KG is so much better? With that help on top of a 24/19/5 defensive force in KG????

[DMAVS41]

How is one man supposed to shutdown a 25/7 Michael Finley, a 21/9/4 Steve Nash, a 13/5 Nick Van Exel, on top of a 33/16 Dirk? :oldlol:


this is Dirk's mediocre help..

I also wouldn't call that mediocre help. If they had played like that against the Kings...it would have been a different story.

But also, the 02 Kings were a truly great team. Put the 02 Mavs against the competition in 03 with a healthy team and they likely win the title. Same thing for 07...and I'd argue 13 as well.

A lot of this has to do with what year a team is going for the title. The 02 Mavs lost in the 2nd round, but might have won the title in other years. Hell, maybe even 06...I like Finley/Nash a lot better than Terry/Howard.

[SCdac]

I'm amazed more people aren't listening to the Dirk fans and picking the "Most clutch, beastly, efficient playoff player ever, all time, in history, in basketball"

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/dirkguardedbycaptainjack.jpg

[tpols]

You act like KG had no help.

22/6/5 billups and a 20/7/2 wally

How is Dirk supposed to win when KG is so much better? With that help on top of a 24/19/5 defensive force in KG????
Chauncey Billups and Wally Scerbiak are NOT comparable to Steve Nash and Michael Finley.. and you know it. :oldlol:

Steve Nash averaged 9 assists per game.. NVE averaged 5.. Dirk averaged .7

Chauncey Averaged 6 apg.. Garnett averaged 5.. and Wally averaged 2.


On top of having way better scorers, Mavs had a stacked offense that involved great ball movement.. Wolves didnt. And you expect KG as one man to shutdown an offense thats predicated on great creators dishing it out to 3 point shooters smh.

[Pointguard]

If you think Dirk dogs it in the regular season then you are just ignorant. Nothing could be further from the truth. He just didn't play big minutes like he had to in the playoffs.

Well his minutes never looked liked KG minutes. That's for sure. I think Dirk would have averaged 10 rebounds per game once if he was playing hard. And he wasn't guarding Duncan, Malone, Barkley or KG like most other power forwards. I can't say Dirk was dogging it all the time, but he definitely wasn't was going all out Malone and KG.



In case you weren't aware, the competition in the regular season at times is a joke. Dirk led teams were blowing a lot of teams out during his prime. And Dirk didn't stay in games...he never cared about stats or anything like that.
Integrity is integrity. You get paid to do it, you give it.
KG certainly never cared about stats. Malone or Barkley never seemed to push it either. Dirk averaged 37 mpg from 22 to 31 years of age. This isn't some great reduction in minutes. KG and Malone had crazy motors so I would expect their 2 minutes more per game. Barkley I imagine would be like Dirk's 37 minutes per game.


You talk about KG's teams needing him in the regular season. Well, historically Dirk improves his teams more than KG does in the regular season. I don't make much of that, but it does kill your assertion that KG does more. Dirk improves his teams offense in the regular season by 9.3 points. KG improves it by 5.5 points. Dirk improves his teams defense by 1.9 points. KG improves it by 3.9 points.
Dirk's team was always built around him, his whole career. When KG had the defensive reigns of his team things like this would happen:

"The Heat shot 38% with KG on the floor, 85% with KG on the bench....yes you read that right, 85%. Later that night I saw that corroborated on TV, when NBA TV reported the same numbers (except the Heat actually shot ONLY 84% when KG was on the bench).

Then, last night, it happened again. I was watching NBA TV in the aftermath of the overtime win, and they reported that the Heat had shot about 35% in Game 4 when KG was in the game, but 75% with him on the bench.

So then, I started doing the math...through the two wins, the Celtics were holding the Heat in the mid-upper 30% range with Garnett in the game...but were allowing the Heat to score at roughly an 80% clip with Garnett on the bench. To put it mildly, that seemed like a big difference."

quoted from SB Nation.com via Jkidd Kid http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314


If the Mavs were so good without Dirk? Why did they get so much better when he's on the floor...especially offensively? Doesn't it seem odd that a player "dogging it" would have such a profound impact not only statistically, but on wins and losses as well?
Once again the team was built around him. So he the center piece of a solid owner that wants to win. But he doesn't get extra points for that, the GM and owners made it that way - not really Dirk. Utah and Philly suffered when their stars went to the bench. KG was usually the scorer and facilitator on his team. As well as the defensive cog.

[DMAVS41]

Chauncey Billups and Wally Scerbiak are NOT comparable to Steve Nash and Michael Finley.. and you know it. :oldlol:

Steve Nash averaged 9 assists per game.. NVE averaged 5.. Dirk averaged .7

Chauncey Averaged 6 apg.. Garnett averaged 5.. and Wally averaged 2.


On top of having way better scorers, Mavs had a stacked offense that involved great ball movement.. Wolves didnt. And you expect KG as one man to shutdown an offense thats predicated on great creators dishing it out to 3 point shooters smh.

And a big part of that is Dirk...and you know it.

I doubt you are old enough to remember, but all the talk going into that series was how KG was going to shut down the Mavs and Dirk. And I'm simply asking how a player so much better than Dirk...didn't do anything to impact the outcome of the series. Especially when they play the same position.

Why didn't KG score 50? Why didn't he shut down one player at least. I mean...the Mavs were way worse defensively.

See...the thing you ignore is that the Wolves also had a great offense. They had the 4th best offense in the league. LOL...and the Mavs had the 25th ranked defense.

[DMAVS41]

I'm amazed more people aren't listening to the Dirk fans and picking the "Most clutch, beastly, efficient playoff player ever, all time, in history, in basketball"

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/dirkguardedbycaptainjack.jpg

Are you still butt hurt over Dirk destroying your team in 06? Or that your team choked in the finals this year? I can't tell...