say LeBron James wins in 2012 and 2013.

[ThemBombs]

how will the board react? how would the level of hate be different from now to then? say he beats

Lakers in 2012, 4-0
Thunder in 2013, 4-2

and wins FMVP for both of them.

[AlphaWolf24]

well according to LBJ stans....."winning has no bearing on how good a player is".."it's just blind luck and special teammates"


so .....:confusedshrug:

[GreatGreg]

how will the board react? how would the level of hate be different from now to then? say he beats

Lakers in 2012, 4-0
Thunder in 2013, 4-2

and wins FMVP for both of them.
If this happens, than ISH will be a massive shitstorm and a place everyone would want to avoid. Can you imagine? All the "U MAD?!?!"s being thrown, all the threads being made, it'll be a war.

[Papaya Petee]

Doesn't really do much. People already know how great of a player he is, they just use the no rings to hate on him because they don't like his decisions as a person.

However, sweeping LA would officially end this unnecessary debate between him and Kobe

[ThaSwagg3r]

Not like he would be the finals MVP in either one of them. The best player in the finals usually gets the finals MVP and that will more than likely be Wade, who is also the best player on the Heat.

[Bless Mathews]

Not like he would be the finals MVP in either one of them. The best player in the finals usually gets the finals MVP and that will more than likely be Wade, who is also the best player on the Heat.



LOL. Funny but true.

[Phong]

After 8 years, people are not tired to make hypothetical scenarios for LeBust?

He hasn't won shit and people here are already awarding him 2 titles, 2 FMVPs and whatnot. :facepalm

[kaiiu]

But according to U Lebron Stans rings dont matter right? Its a team accomplishment right?

Why should we praise Lebrick for a TEAM achievement :confusedshrug:

[Irish]

Depends how he wins them.

If he puts his head down, works hard on his game then respect the man,

if he acts like an ass like usual, then the NBA in general is screwed.

[nbacardDOTnet]

lbj guarantee 8 rings at least, right ?

[ZaaaaaH]

Doesn't really do much. People already know how great of a player he is, they just use the no rings to hate on him because they don't like his decisions as a person.

However, sweeping LA would officially end this unnecessary debate between him and Kobe

ur post screams

I LOVE LEBRONS DICCCCK !!!

fagggot

[Dbrog]

It doesn't matter. Those scenarios won't happen.

[thejumpa]

Everybody would be back to being on his dick. That's how things work.

[AlphaWolf24]

Doesn't really do much. People already know how great of a player he is, they just use the no rings to hate on him because they don't like his decisions as a person.

However, sweeping LA would officially end this unnecessary debate between him and Kobe



I see what U did there.....



PS: sweeping L.A. would'nt prove anything remember?.....he used his "decisions" as a person to join the most stacked team in NBA History...and quit on a 65 win team.

so:confusedshrug:

[Samurai Swoosh]

ur post screams

I LOVE LEBRONS DICCCCK !!!

fagggot
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/hustlin.gif

[Heavincent]

well according to LBJ stans....."winning has no bearing on how good a player is".."it's just blind luck and special teammates"


so .....:confusedshrug:

This.

If Lebron wins a championship, Lebron stans will change their tune.

And even with this hypothetical non-sense, Kobe still has more rings than Lebron :oldlol:

[Carbine]

All will be forgotten, pretty much. His struggles will be a blip on the radar, and his championships will overshadow the failures.

[RRR3]

I'll be glad if LBJ wins a championship, but even if he does win FMVP, it will be because of the team as a whole. Individual players don't win titles. I will stand by this, even if LBJ does win. However, that doesn't mean I won't troll some of my friends who hate him :roll:

[NumberSix]

If this happens, than ISH will be a massive shitstorm and a place everyone would want to avoid. Can you imagine? All the "U MAD?!?!"s being thrown, all the threads being made, it'll be a war.
Why would it be a shitstorm if the Heat beat the Lakers? In my lifetime the Lakers have won 9 championships. It would be cool if the Heat got another one, but it in no way makes them a better or even equal franchise.

[Butters]

2 rings and 2 finals mvp's while keeping the same stat line will shoot him into the top 12-15 all time.

Rings and finals MVP's do alot for a players career on this board and the media.

[Simple Jack]

After 8 years, people are not tired to make hypothetical scenarios for LeBust?

He hasn't won shit and people here are already awarding him 2 titles, 2 FMVPs and whatnot. :facepalm

If by not winning shit you mean winning/achieving more than most of the HOF through 8 years in their respective careers, then yea, he hasn't won shit.

[Simple Jack]

I see what U did there.....



PS: sweeping L.A. would'nt prove anything remember?.....he used his "decisions" as a person to join the most stacked team in NBA History...and quit on a 65 win team.

so:confusedshrug:

Certainly not the most stacked team of all-time. And it was 66 wins, where he apparently "quit" and averaged 39 8 8 for the series against Orlando...I'd love to know what he could have done had he not quit.

[AMISTILLILL]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/hustlin.gif

:oldlol: :roll:

[knightfall88]

Lebron has the most hypothetical championships in NBA history

[RazorBaLade]

Lebron has the most hypothetical championships in NBA history

5 star post

[TheCorporation]

But according to U Lebron Stans rings dont matter right? Its a team accomplishment right?

Why should we praise Lebrick for a TEAM achievement :confusedshrug:

Because you idiots don't praise him for his individual achievements? :confusedshrug:

[dee-rose]

Lebron has the most hypothetical championships in NBA history
:roll: :roll: :roll: :applause:

[Marikina]

After 8 years, people are not tired to make hypothetical scenarios for LeBust?

He hasn't won shit and people here are already awarding him 2 titles, 2 FMVPs and whatnot. :facepalm

I think someone mentioned it once that Lebron has the most hypothetical titles ever.

[GS1905]

Winning 2 ships wouldn't really change anything. People don't like him because he is a coward who ran away and teamed up with Wade and Bosh to win rings.

Which makes it pointless for Lebron stans to say team accomplishments don't matter. If it didn't matter your boy Lebron wouldn't team up with Wade and Bosh like a little girl.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Winning 2 ships wouldn't really change anything. People don't like him because he is a coward who ran away and teamed up with Wade and Bosh to win rings.

Which makes it pointless for Lebron stans to say team accomplishments don't matter. If it didn't matter your boy Lebron wouldn't team up with Wade and Bosh like a little girl.

like this

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/PastyKobe_insidehoops.jpg

[z14h]

Lol, close this thread down and reopen it when he actually wins. I'm not a LeBron fan but I honestly think he'll win with the Heat in time.

[Jacks3]

LeBron wins a ring and he's automatically top 10 ever....His peak is already top 5 All-Time..

[TheTank]

how will the board react? how would the level of hate be different from now to then? say he beats

Lakers in 2012, 4-0
Thunder in 2013, 4-2

and wins FMVP for both of them.

Wait, didn't he guarantee 6, 7, 8 championships? So he still has a long way to go if ever they win the chip for 2012 and 2013.

[Lebron23]

All of the Kobe stans would commit suicide which is a actually a very good thing because those guys are the most useless posters in this forum.

No Kobe stans = All of ISH would appreciate the greatness of Kobe.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Then everyone on this forum would end up giving LeBron blowjobs

[NumberSix]

No Kobe stans = All of ISH would appreciate the greatness of Kobe.
This.

Speaking as a lifelong Laker fan, Kobe Bryant worshipers/stalkers really spoil everything. I swear there wouldn't be as much Kobe/Laker hate if it wasn't for these fake-fans/groupies.

The funny thing is that all these people accomplish is turning people off to Kobe/The Lakers and making people hate them who otherwise wouldn't have.

[RRR3]

All of the Kobe stans would commit suicide which is a actually a very good thing because those guys are the most useless posters in this forum.

No Kobe stans = All of ISH would appreciate the greatness of Kobe.

It's not a good thing for them. Well, I sincerely hope they don't hurt themselves, but I do think they'd troll less, which would be more pleasant.

[Nick Young]

Wait, didn't he guarantee 6, 7, 8 championships? So he still has a long way to go if ever they win the chip for 2012 and 2013.
He actually guaranteed 0 titles. He said

"I'm not going to win 1 title. Not 2. Not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7..."

we all just misinterpreted what he meant

[Rose]

He actually guaranteed 0 titles. He said

"I'm not going to win 1 title. Not 2. Not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7..."

we all just misinterpreted what he meant
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[macpierce]

All of the Kobe stans would commit suicide which is a actually a very good thing because those guys are the most useless posters in this forum.

No Kobe stans = All of ISH would appreciate the greatness of Kobe.
kobestans are as bad as lebron hypothetical championship stans.........
so maybe you should commit suicide if lebron never won.....:cry:

[Ikill]

he will be top 10 all time

[Warriors fan]

LeBron wins a ring and he's automatically top 10 ever....His peak is already top 5 All-Time..
Jordan Shaq Hakeem Wilt Kareem i guess its not

[PowerGlove]

Everybody would be back to being on his dick. That's how things work.
/thread.

[jrong]

Lebron has the most hypothetical championships in NBA history

Best post ever.

[Phong]

Lebron has the most hypothetical championships in NBA history:roll: :applause:


Why win championships in real life when your fans can make you a multiple champion in their wet dreams? :oldlol:

[kaiiu]

LeBron wins a ring and he's automatically top 10 ever....His peak is already top 5 All-Time..
His peak is not even top 5 of the 2000s.

Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, KG, Tmac and im missing some others.

[AlphaWolf24]

Certainly not the most stacked team of all-time. And it was 66 wins, where he apparently "quit" and averaged 39 8 8 for the series against Orlando...I'd love to know what he could have done had he not quit.


yes quite certainly the most stacked team of alltime....Back 2 back MVP and maybe the most gifted athlete in NBA History joining a top 3 player witha top 5 power forward all in their peak.....all this after quitting on a 63 win team with the best record in the NBA...

f'ing disgusting.....and his stats vs Orlando/Boston don't prove sh!t....watch the games.

[Simple Jack]

yes quite certainly the most stacked team of alltime....Back 2 back MVP and maybe the most gifted athlete in NBA History joining a top 3 player witha top 5 power forward all in their peak.....all this after quitting on a 63 win team with the best record in the NBA...

f'ing disgusting.....and his stats vs Orlando/Boston don't prove sh!t....watch the games.

I did watch those games; multiple times. THere was no "quitting" involved in that series. Say what you want about 2010, but 2009 is a different story. He played his ass off and loss due to the horrendous play of his teammeates in that series. When did they have 63 wins?

LOL @ your basketball history knowledge if you think a team with 2 HOF and Bosh is the best team of all-time.

[Heavincent]

I myself have never understood the supporting cast excuse for Lebron. I'm sorry, but a team with 60+ wins isn't just a team with one good player. Any 60+ win team is perfectly capable of winning the championship. If Lebron's supporting cast was so bad, then how come they were one of the favorites to win the championship in the 09-10 season? :confusedshrug:

[Heavincent]

LOL @ your basketball history knowledge if you think a team with 2 HOF and Bosh is the best team of all-time.

If Lebron just played an average (yes, average) series in the 2011 Finals, the Heat would have won. But no, he played like complete shit for the entire series.

[AlphaWolf24]

I did watch those games; multiple times. THere was no "quitting" involved in that series. Say what you want about 2010, but 2009 is a different story. He played his ass off and loss due to the horrendous play of his teammeates in that series. When did they have 63 wins?

LOL @ your basketball history knowledge if you think a team with 2 HOF and Bosh is the best team of all-time.

well then tell us...wich team was more stacked?....I'm going from 1982 - present day...I have never seen a team with that much talent and skill....

the only team from top to Bottom that could compete with the 2011 Heat talent wise is the 96 Bull's.....but Wade, Bosh and Haslem outweigh PiP , Kukoc and Rodman IMO

[RRR3]

If Lebron just played an average (yes, average) series in the 2011 Finals, the Heat would have won. But no, he played like complete shit for the entire series.

LOL 17.9 PPG or whatever he averaged is above average. LBJ played above average for a random NBA player. He played like horseshit for his standards, admittedly, but let's not go nuts here.

[RRR3]

His peak is not even top 5 of the 2000s.

Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, KG, Tmac and im missing some others.
:facepalm :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[RRR3]

I myself have never understood the supporting cast excuse for Lebron. I'm sorry, but a team with 60+ wins isn't just a team with one good player. Any 60+ win team is perfectly capable of winning the championship. If Lebron's supporting cast was so bad, then how come they were one of the favorites to win the championship in the 09-10 season? :confusedshrug:

If Lebron's supporting cast WASN'T so bad, why did they go 17-63 without him? Must have been the loss of Big Z, eh? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[dirtydez]

His peak is not even top 5 of the 2000s.

Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, KG, Tmac and im missing some others.

tracy mcgrandy is so overrate on these website! the man can never even lead hes team out of 1st round! Prime Tmac blah blah blah, hes was a chucker with no work ethnic, hes was more lazy then hes lazy eye

[RRR3]

tracy mcgrandy is so overrate on these website! the man can never even lead hes team out of 1st round! Prime Tmac blah blah blah, hes was a chucker with no work ethnic, hes was more lazy then hes lazy eye
Kobe.

[dirtydez]

Kobe.
i dont give a sh*t, at lest kobe have balls to force sex on girl in colarado, kobe just copy GOAT mitchell jordan

[LA_Showtime]

If LeBron wins 1 ring he cracks the top 10, probably the top 8. If he wins 2 rings I'd argue he belongs in the 4-6 range. His peak was that good.

[Heavincent]

LOL 17.9 PPG or whatever he averaged is above average. LBJ played above average for a random NBA player. He played like horseshit for his standards, admittedly, but let's not go nuts here.

When I said average, I meant Lebron's average level of play. If he just averaged at least 25 points in the Finals, the Heat most likely win the series.

We're seriously gonna sit here and pretend the Finals loss wasn't mainly because of Lebron's poor performance? From 27 PPG in the regular season to 18 PPG in the Finals. That's the biggest drop-off in NBA history. Pretty ****ing pathetic.

[Simple Jack]

If Lebron just played an average (yes, average) series in the 2011 Finals, the Heat would have won. But no, he played like complete shit for the entire series.

How does that make it the best team ever? Star players have played sub-par in the finals while their team went on to win. If anything that hurts your logic.

[RRR3]

How does that make it the best team ever? Star players have played sub-par in the finals while their team went on to win. If anything that hurts your logic.

Biased Kobe fans don't like logic.

[Simple Jack]

well then tell us...wich team was more stacked?....I'm going from 1982 - present day...I have never seen a team with that much talent and skill....

the only team from top to Bottom that could compete with the 2011 Heat talent wise is the 96 Bull's.....but Wade, Bosh and Haslem outweigh PiP , Kukoc and Rodman IMO

Celtics
Pistons
Lakers
Philly
Bulls

Going back into the 60's, some of these teams, more than once.

Having 2 top 5 players, Bosh, and a TERRIBLE bench and relatively inexperienced coach does not mean it is the most stacked team in history. Unless 4-12 doesn't matter for you.

Greatest 1-3? Even that's debatable; but sure as hell a bit easier to prove than the most stacked TEAM (1-12) ever.

I've seen people say the Lakers (this year) were more stacked than the Heat. Now that they lost, you, and a bunch of others, want to overrate the quality of the team to hate on LeBron. What a surprise.

[DMAVS41]

I myself have never understood the supporting cast excuse for Lebron. I'm sorry, but a team with 60+ wins isn't just a team with one good player. Any 60+ win team is perfectly capable of winning the championship. If Lebron's supporting cast was so bad, then how come they were one of the favorites to win the championship in the 09-10 season? :confusedshrug:

There is no excuse this year thats for sure. Lebron flat out choked in the biggest series of his life. Not only that, but the best player on his team stepped up and played pretty much great. That is all on Lebron....

However, those Cavs teams were simply not legit contending teams. It would have taken Lebron playing out of his mind to win the title either of those years. Good teams? Sure. Championship? No way. Too many flaws, no reliable 2nd option, average coach for the situation. Not enough. If Lebron had carried either of those teams to a title it would be up there with Hakeem in 94 as the best playoff run of all time.

[DMAVS41]

well then tell us...wich team was more stacked?....I'm going from 1982 - present day...I have never seen a team with that much talent and skill....

the only team from top to Bottom that could compete with the 2011 Heat talent wise is the 96 Bull's.....but Wade, Bosh and Haslem outweigh PiP , Kukoc and Rodman IMO

Are you serious?

The Heat had an inexperienced coach. A historically bad bench. An over-rated as **** 3rd guy in Bosh. And then they had 2 great players. If Bosh was really a top 10 player in the game then they might have a case for best top 3 ever....but Bosh is not a top 10 player. He might barely be top 20.....

Anyway....as far as more stacked teams.....

83 Sixers
85 Lakers
86 Celtics
87 Lakers
89/90 Pistons
08 Celtics
10 Lakers

And I'm not defending Lebron this year. He deserves to be hammered for his finals. It was pathetic and it will forever be a huge black mark on his career. Made worse by the fact that the rest of his team (outside the over-rated Bosh) played well. That series alone might prevent him from ever cracking the top 8 to 10 all time....

However, that was not even remotely close to the most stacked team ever. You are over-rating Bosh hugely and giving no thought to the role players or coach.

I said this before the Mavs series. All the people claiming the Heat were so good its unfair were going to look silly if a team like the Mavs beat them without homecourt. And they look even dumber now that Dirk played an average series....and the Mavs still won in 6.

Stacked? Sure. All time stacked? Maybe. Most stacked team ever? Nope.

[RRR3]

Are you serious?

The Heat had an inexperienced coach. A historically bad bench. An over-rated as **** 3rd guy in Bosh. And then they had 2 great players. If Bosh was really a top 10 player in the game then they might have a case for best top 3 ever....but Bosh is not a top 10 player. He might barely be top 20.....

Anyway....as far as more stacked teams.....

83 Sixers
85 Lakers
86 Celtics
87 Lakers
89/90 Pistons
08 Celtics
10 Lakers

And I'm not defending Lebron this year. He deserves to be hammered for his finals. It was pathetic and it will forever be a huge black mark on his career. Made worse by the fact that the rest of his team (outside the over-rated Bosh) played well. That series alone might prevent him from ever cracking the top 8 to 10 all time....

However, that was not even remotely close to the most stacked team ever. You are over-rating Bosh hugely and giving no thought to the role players or coach.

I said this before the Mavs series. All the people claiming the Heat were so good its unfair were going to look silly if a team like the Mavs beat them without homecourt. And they look even dumber now that Dirk played an average series....and the Mavs still won in 6.

Stacked? Sure. All time stacked? Maybe. Most stacked team ever? Nope.

You don't think a great finals performance will make up for it? People seem to forgive athletes when they become "champions".

[DMAVS41]

You don't think a great finals performance will make up for it? People seem to forgive athletes when they become "champions".

Sure. That is why I said might.

It will take multiple titles and Lebron will have to play great in the finals to make up for it.

Just winning now won't be enough. It will need to be winning combined with great play. Lebron's play in the finals now for his 2 appearances is atrocious....and when you combine awful play with losing....its not a good look for a legacy.

[I.R.Beast]

There is no excuse this year thats for sure. Lebron flat out choked in the biggest series of his life. Not only that, but the best player on his team stepped up and played pretty much great. That is all on Lebron....

However, those Cavs teams were simply not legit contending teams. It would have taken Lebron playing out of his mind to win the title either of those years. Good teams? Sure. Championship? No way. Too many flaws, no reliable 2nd option, average coach for the situation. Not enough. If Lebron had carried either of those teams to a title it would be up there with Hakeem in 94 as the best playoff run of all time.

Trying to defend James Horrible post season play is pointles IMO...Why would u try...just give it up James fans...the guy folded , it's a simple as that

[Friday]

Lebron has the most hypothetical championships in NBA history
LOL, Agreed completely.

[winwin]

The Heat are the first and only team in NBA history to field three teammates
with at least five All-Star appearances each before the age of 30.








facts are facts

[RRR3]

Trying to defend James Horrible post season play is pointles IMO...Why would u try...just give it up James fans...the guy folded , it's a simple as that
He wasn't defending it at all you idiot. Did you even read the post?

[kaiiu]

Dirk won a ring with a bench player as his 2nd option. Dont give me that teammate shit

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/0%20Players/Lebron%20James/115f0d9c.jpg

[RRR3]

Dirk won a ring with a bench player as his 2nd option. Dont give me that teammate shit

DALLAS won a ring with their second option being the 6th man.

[kaiiu]

DALLAS won a ring with their second option being the 6th man.
So why couldnt MIAMI win with their 3rd option being Mr 25/10

[RRR3]

So why couldnt MIAMI win with their 3rd option being Mr 25/10

Because LeBron ****ed up. Period. I am a huge LeBron fan, but I am not going to make excuses for him. He had a very poor performance for his standards, but he's still the best player in the NBA currently.

[kaiiu]

Because LeBron ****ed up. Period. I am a huge LeBron fan, but I am not going to make excuses for him. He had a very poor performance for his standards, but he's still the best player in the NBA currently.
not at all.

[RRR3]

not at all.
Who is then?

[Heavincent]

He had a very poor performance for his standards, but he's still the best player in the NBA currently.

I disagree.

[RRR3]

I disagree.
Same question.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Who is then?
Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, and Dwight Howard are all better, Wade especially...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229979

[RRR3]

Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, and Dwight Howard are all better, Wade especially...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229979
:facepalm

[cteach111]

If LeBron wins 1 ring he cracks the top 10, probably the top 8. If he wins 2 rings I'd argue he belongs in the 4-6 range. His peak was that good.

i understand that there are many posters here that rate Lebron's peak high, but I strongly disagree with this statement.

[Heavincent]

Same question.

why do some Lebron fans act like it's not debatable?

Dwayne Wade, Dirk, and maybe Dwight Howard (just like ThaSwagg3r said). I think Kobe will be better than Lebron next season as well.

[RRR3]

why do some Lebron fans act like it's not debatable?

Dwayne Wade, Dirk, and maybe Dwight Howard (just like ThaSwagg3r said). I think Kobe will be better than Lebron next season as well.


[http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww250/jh2up/qs1k3q.gif:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :hammerhead: :wtf:

[Heavincent]

[http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww250/jh2up/qs1k3q.gif

He was a top 5 player last year even with all of the nagging injuries. If you don't think he has a chance of being the best player in the league next year, you're fooling yourself.

And why are some Lebron fans so bitter about Kobe? Is it because he's an all time great and Lebron isn't?

[DMAVS41]

He was a top 5 player last year even with all of the nagging injuries. If you don't think he has a chance of being the best player in the league next year, you're fooling yourself.

And why are some Lebron fans so bitter about Kobe? Is it because he's an all time great and Lebron isn't?

I'm not a fan of either. I defend Lebron because he's hated on too much....well, at least he was until the finals this year. Now its actually warranted.

Kobe is absolutely an all time great. Top 10. So is Lebron. If Lebron retired tomorrow he'd go down as one of the 25 best players of all time.

Barring a serious injury or a huge drop off in play, Lebron will go down as one of the 15 best players of all time at worst.

LOL @ not being an all time great.

[Heavincent]

I'm not a fan of either. I defend Lebron because he's hated on too much....well, at least he was until the finals this year. Now its actually warranted.

Kobe is absolutely an all time great. Top 10. So is Lebron. If Lebron retired tomorrow he'd go down as one of the 25 best players of all time.

Barring a serious injury or a huge drop off in play, Lebron will go down as one of the 15 best players of all time at worst.

LOL @ not being an all time great.

I consider all time great top 10.

[DMAVS41]

I consider all time great top 10.

Fair enough.

So you don't consider Moses, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit, Malone, Barkley, KG, Dirk all time greats?

[Heavincent]

Fair enough.

So you don't consider Moses, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit, Malone, Barkley, KG, Dirk all time greats?

Perhaps. Come to think of it, I don't really care about the terminology that much.

[DMAVS41]

Perhaps. Come to think of it, I don't really care about the terminology that much.

Terminology aside, this is why I defend Lebron. He's 8 years in and he's already one of the 25 best players of all time. Has he reached his potential? No. Has he come through in his biggest moments? No. Does he deserve blame for that? Absolutely.

However, he's done things only a few players of all time have. Even without ever winning a title he'll go down as one of the top 15 or so players ever.

I mean, that is pretty damn amazing. If we were back at the night of Lebron's first game and somebody said that Lebron would go down as one of the 15 best players of all time when his career was over.

Would you really look at that person and say that Lebron would be underachieving with that. That doing that wouldn't be good enough. I just don't get that logic.

[tpols]

Would you really look at that person and say that Lebron would be underachieving with that? That doing that wouldn't be good enough. I just don't get that logic.
Yes.

Lebron is the most talented basketball specimen of all time imo.. right behind or tied with Wilt. He's a 6'9 250+lb beast with a combo of speed, strength, and hops that are off the charts.. and he's got the coordination to harness the full power of those physical attributes. He's also an extremely high IQ player.. Lebron almost always makes the right plays. He knows when to pass and when to attack. He's probably the best one man wrecking crew to ever play. If I have a team of scrubs/mediocre players, I will trust Lebron over anyone in the history of the league to drag that team to the top. Simply put, being a top 15 all time would be underachieving for Lebron because he had the potential to be better, especially considering his lack of injuries.

But what he lacks is that mental switch.. he doesn't know what to do when he's surrounded by guys of his caliber[like Wade]. He cant handle pressure well. He doesn't have that killer instinct that many other greats had yet in his career. Can you imagine a Lebron with the MJ's mindset? Can you imagine if he knew how to gather all of the hate and criticism he gets and turn it all into anger-->insane on court production? That shit would be crazy. But he cant. Maybe as he gets older he will develop a more veteran mindset.. who knows.

[DMAVS41]

Yes.

Lebron is the most talented basketball specimen of all time imo.. right behind or tied with Wilt. He's a 6'9 250+lb beast with a combo of speed, strength, and hops that are off the charts.. and he's got the coordination to harness the full power of those physical attributes. He's also an extremely high IQ player.. Lebron almost always makes the right plays. He knows when to pass and when to attack. He's probably the best one man wrecking crew to ever play. If I have a team of scrubs/mediocre players, I will trust Lebron over anyone in the history of the league to drag that team to the top. Simply put, being a top 15 all time would be underachieving for Lebron because he had the potential to be better, especially considering his lack of injuries.

But what he lacks is that mental switch.. he doesn't know what to do when he's surrounded by guys of his caliber[like Wade]. He cant handle pressure well. He doesn't have that killer instinct that many other greats had yet in his career. Can you imagine a Lebron with the MJ's mindset? Can you imagine if he knew how to gather all of the hate and criticism he gets and turn it all into anger-->insane on court production? That shit would be crazy. But he cant. Maybe as he gets older he will develop a more veteran mindset.. who knows.

I disagree. Top 15 all time is an exclusive list......and honestly, that is probably the worst he can do barring some catastrophic injury or a huge drop off in play.

[tpols]

I disagree. Top 15 all time is an exclusive list......and honestly, that is probably the worst he can do barring some catastrophic injury or a huge drop off in play.
Top 15 is great.. legendary even. It would be an honor for any player to make that list.. but what I was talking about was your point on under or over-achieving. And for Lebron, top 15 is definitely underachieving.

The thing is.. Lebron was already pretty much annointed a top 15-20 player of all time BEFORE he got to play with this Heat team. And if he doesn't move up to top ten at least, that means he will only end up having won at most 1 FMVP on a super stacked team. Lebron with 2 FMVPs is a top 10 player of all time to a lot of people. Lebron with one though? I'm sorry but he isn't with just one. His resume wouldn't be strong enough. And he has the same luxuries all the other greats had now of being able to play on a good/stacked team.

Bird turned stacked teams into 3 rings.
Kareem 4+.
Magic 6.
Jordan 6.
Shaq 4.
Hakeem[not even stacked] 2.
Russel 11.
Kobe 4[not really counting 2000 as much as 01 and 02].
Duncan 4.
Lebron 1?

The goal in this game is winning.. and Lebron has the best supporting cast by a mile in the league right now. If he ends up with 1 ring/FMVP who the hell is he replacing? Even with 2 rings and 1 FMVP he isn't taking out anyone on that list.

[Jacks3]

His peak is not even top 5 of the 2000s.

Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, KG, Tmac and im missing some others.
Those guys aren't better than 08-10 LBJ. Did u guys forgot how ridiculously good this dude was?

2010: 30-9-7-2-1-60% TS and the best defender at his position. Insane.

:bowdown:

[The Iron Fist]

I myself have never understood the supporting cast excuse for Lebron. I'm sorry, but a team with 60+ wins isn't just a team with one good player. Any 60+ win team is perfectly capable of winning the championship. If Lebron's supporting cast was so bad, then how come they were one of the favorites to win the championship in the 09-10 season? :confusedshrug:
Because the playoffs hadn't started yet.

[The Iron Fist]

If Lebron's supporting cast WASN'T so bad, why did they go 17-63 without him? Must have been the loss of Big Z, eh? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
The loss of Big Z, Shaq, Mo, and basically the entire nucleus of that team. They didn't just lose one guy, they lost several key members.

[The Iron Fist]

Because LeBron ****ed up. Period. I am a huge LeBron fan, but I am not going to make excuses for him. He had a very poor performance for his standards, but he's still the best player in the NBA currently.
This belongs in the Lebron Joke thread.

[The Iron Fist]

I'm not a fan of either. I defend Lebron because he's hated on too much....well, at least he was until the finals this year. Now its actually warranted.

Kobe is absolutely an all time great. Top 10. So is Lebron. If Lebron retired tomorrow he'd go down as one of the 25 best players of all time.

Barring a serious injury or a huge drop off in play, Lebron will go down as one of the 15 best players of all time at worst.

LOL @ not being an all time great.
Kobes hated on too much,

why don't you defend him?

[winwin]

Kobes hated on too much,

why don't you defend him?

LOL

GINO

ONWED

LOL

or at least one of his brothers :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Top 15 is great.. legendary even. It would be an honor for any player to make that list.. but what I was talking about was your point on under or over-achieving. And for Lebron, top 15 is definitely underachieving.

The thing is.. Lebron was already pretty much annointed a top 15-20 player of all time BEFORE he got to play with this Heat team. And if he doesn't move up to top ten at least, that means he will only end up having won at most 1 FMVP on a super stacked team. Lebron with 2 FMVPs is a top 10 player of all time to a lot of people. Lebron with one though? I'm sorry but he isn't with just one. His resume wouldn't be strong enough. And he has the same luxuries all the other greats had now of being able to play on a good/stacked team.

Bird turned stacked teams into 3 rings.
Kareem 4+.
Magic 6.
Jordan 6.
Shaq 4.
Hakeem[not even stacked] 2.
Russel 11.
Kobe 4[not really counting 2000 as much as 01 and 02].
Duncan 4.
Lebron 1?

The goal in this game is winning.. and Lebron has the best supporting cast by a mile in the league right now. If he ends up with 1 ring/FMVP who the hell is he replacing? Even with 2 rings and 1 FMVP he isn't taking out anyone on that list.

And I disagree. Top 15 all time for Lebron isn't under achieving. You can't separate physical from the mental......or anything for that matter. It all goes together.

You say imagine Lebron with Jordan's mindset/iq....well, he doesn't have that. He may not be able to control that anymore than he can control his ft shooting or jumpshooting. Players are who they are. Lebron is a freak athlete that has good, but not great basketball skills. He suffers from coming out of high school and not learning the game in college. He's suffered from never having a great coach to teach him the game.

Some of his faults are on him...some aren't.

And again, top 15 is probably at worst...even at this point. West, Oscar, Moses, Baylor......all will be debatable by the time Lebron is done.

There is a lot more that goes into the game than just physical skills. Lebron has the total package when it comes to the physical part in terms of athleticism.

I think its easy to credit players that have a great basketball mind as of its something they can control. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know. I do know that something mentally happened to Lebron last year and this year in the playoffs that prevented him from flourishing. You have to factor that in when you speak of overachieving and underachieving.

Some guys just don't have what it takes to perform on the biggest stage consistently. Some guys even with the strongest minds struggle at times in those situations....like Bird and Kobe. The jury is still out on Lebron being able to come through when it matters most, but the last 2 years don't inspire a lot of confidence in me for his future in those situations. That is part of the person and player Lebron is. Basketball is not just about who jumps the highest and who can run the fastest.

[DMAVS41]

Kobes hated on too much,

why don't you defend him?

He's widely regarded as a top 10 player of all time. Exactly where he should be based on the way people rank here.

His fans (such as you) bring it on......

[TAC602]

LeBron wins a ring and he's automatically top 10 ever....His peak is already top 5 All-Time..

All-Time?

Lebron was/is unbelievable, but over the last 20 years alone I'd say Jordan, Olajuwon, O'Neal and Duncan all had better peaks, whether through dominance, impact on the floor, playoff success or all of the above. Lebron failed to even reach the Finals during what you considered his 3-year peak (08-10) despite having a team that catered to his game. At this point of his career with a visually evident decline in his athleticism, it's unlikely he'll ever have a Finals performance on par with Jordan or O'Neal's dominance and he certainly isn't going to "lead" a lesser team to a title in the same manner as '94 Olajuwon or '03 Duncan.

[NumberSix]

The loss of Big Z, Shaq, Mo, and basically the entire nucleus of that team. They didn't just lose one guy, they lost several key members.
LOL @ your avatar that claims the "Los Angeles Lakers" have 16 "NBA Championships".


If LeBron wins 1 ring he cracks the top 10, probably the top 8. If he wins 2 rings I'd argue he belongs in the 4-6 range. His peak was that good.
What sense does that make? He's already arguably past his prime. Even if he wins a ring, how does that make him better than a couple years ago when he was better than he is now?

Look at Kobe for example. People like to say he'll be on Jordan's level if he gets another ring. Obviously in like 2005, Kobe was better than he is now. How does an older, worse Kobe somehow get considered better than he was when he was younger and a better player?

If LeBron is a top 10 player, it's because he already is. If he wins some stuff as a worse player you don't then go back and retroactively declare as a better player even though he was already better than he was before winning. Unless he how somehow magically becomes even better as he gets older, if he's a top 10 player, he already is or isn't.

[Simple Jack]

The loss of Big Z, Shaq, Mo, and basically the entire nucleus of that team. They didn't just lose one guy, they lost several key members.

This would hold weight if they didn't completely dominate with those guys being injured at various times throughout the year. They didn't miss a step, UNLESS LeBron was out.

[Simple Jack]

LOL @ your avatar that claims the "Los Angeles Lakers" have 16 "NBA Championships".


What sense does that make? He's already arguably past his prime. Even if he wins a ring, how does that make him better than a couple years ago when he was better than he is now?

Look at Kobe for example. People like to say he'll be on Jordan's level if he gets another ring. Obviously in like 2005, Kobe was better than he is now. How does an older, worse Kobe somehow get considered better than he was when he was younger and a better player?

If LeBron is a top 10 player, it's because he already is. If he wins some stuff as a worse player you don't then go back and retroactively declare as a better player even though he was already better than he was before winning. Unless he how somehow magically becomes even better as he gets older, if he's a top 10 player, he already is or isn't.

It's an excuse; an excuse to admit the obvious for LeBron. Regardless, one's career, no matter what level they are at individually, improves when a ring is won. I don't think anyone would argue, all things being equal, that the person with more rings (while maybe not the better player) has had the better career (context included).

[Jacks3]

All-Time?

Lebron was/is unbelievable, but over the last 20 years alone I'd say Jordan, Olajuwon, O'Neal and Duncan all had better peaks, whether through dominance, impact on the floor, playoff success or all of the above. Lebron failed to even reach the Finals during what you considered his 3-year peak (08-10) despite having a team that catered to his game. At this point of his career with a visually evident decline in his athleticism, it's unlikely he'll ever have a Finals performance on par with Jordan or O'Neal's dominance and he certainly isn't going to "lead" a lesser team to a title in the same manner as '94 Olajuwon or '03 Duncan.
Hakeem and Duncan are very arguable. And the reason he failed to make the Finals is because his supporting cast wasn't very good. It's incredible he was able to get back-to-back 60+ win seasons with that group. Mo as your second best player? lol. C'mon man.

[BlueandGold]

After 8 years, people are not tired to make hypothetical scenarios for LeBust?

He hasn't won shit and people here are already awarding him 2 titles, 2 FMVPs and whatnot. :facepalm

Guess not.

[DMAVS41]

LOL @ your avatar that claims the "Los Angeles Lakers" have 16 "NBA Championships".


What sense does that make? He's already arguably past his prime. Even if he wins a ring, how does that make him better than a couple years ago when he was better than he is now?

Look at Kobe for example. People like to say he'll be on Jordan's level if he gets another ring. Obviously in like 2005, Kobe was better than he is now. How does an older, worse Kobe somehow get considered better than he was when he was younger and a better player?

If LeBron is a top 10 player, it's because he already is. If he wins some stuff as a worse player you don't then go back and retroactively declare as a better player even though he was already better than he was before winning. Unless he how somehow magically becomes even better as he gets older, if he's a top 10 player, he already is or isn't.


People here and in most places rank players on a number of different things. The truth is that no player can crack the top 10 all time without winning a ring unless they just suffered on horrible teams throughout their career.

That isn't the case with Lebron. Its not that winning a ring makes him better or anything, but it validates him. He has to prove he can do what it takes to win.

Up until this year...everything about Lebron was hypothetical. If only he had help. If only he had a 2nd option. Many people (me included) thought he would have led the Cavs to the title with a little more help in 09 and 10. Now, I'm not so sure. Lebron crumbled in the biggest playoff series of his life right in the heart of his prime. This was his 8th season. He's a veteran with a ton of experience. He had a better team than the team he lost to. He had a player in Wade play great for the majority of the series.

That hurts him. That holds him back from being the player we thought he was. So Lebron isn't top 10 now or never. He has to do things that prove he could be. He might have already peaked, but his all time rank certainly hasn't.

[NumberSix]

People here and in most places rank players on a number of different things. The truth is that no player can crack the top 10 all time without winning a ring unless they just suffered on horrible teams throughout their career.

That isn't the case with Lebron. Its not that winning a ring makes him better or anything, but it validates him. He has to prove he can do what it takes to win.

Up until this year...everything about Lebron was hypothetical. If only he had help. If only he had a 2nd option. Many people (me included) thought he would have led the Cavs to the title with a little more help in 09 and 10. Now, I'm not so sure. Lebron crumbled in the biggest playoff series of his life right in the heart of his prime. This was his 8th season. He's a veteran with a ton of experience. He had a better team than the team he lost to. He had a player in Wade play great for the majority of the series.

That hurts him. That holds him back from being the player we thought he was. So Lebron isn't top 10 now or never. He has to do things that prove he could be. He might have already peaked, but his all time rank certainly hasn't.
You're not talking about the best player. You're talking about the most accomplished player.

Michael Jordan from the first 3peat and couple seasons before that was the greatest NBA player of all time. Winning another 3 championships after the fact has no impact on that. If he would have only had those 3 championships he still would be the best ever. The second 3peat MJ has nothing to do with that. MJ from the first 3 was CLEARLY better. Adding accomplishments after you're not the best anymore doesn't change what you were before. That's already done.

Shaq from the Lakers 3peat is a top 10 player. You wouldn't demote him because he was worse after. What someone does afterwards doesn't change what they were at the time.

[TAC602]

Hakeem and Duncan are very arguable. And the reason he failed to make the Finals is because his supporting cast wasn't very good. It's incredible he was able to get back-to-back 60+ win seasons with that group. Mo as your second best player? lol. C'mon man.

I understand that, it just felt like you were saying it in a matter-of-fact type way when its arguable he could be 5th over the last two decades alone. From a strictly individual standpoint I'd probably agree. It's just a matter of what you take into account.

Unfortunately for elite NBA players, the standards by which your measured are a lot more strict than your typical football or baseball hall of famer and everybody knows the reason for it, although it remains a team game and admittedly, those Cavs - while catered to Lebron's ball dominant game and abilities to fill a stat sheet and rack up wins in the regular season by way of his brilliance - weren't really compatible with playoff success. Although, from the way people were talking about them during those 60+ win seasons, you wouldn't know it. I mean, how many analysts had the Cavaliers into and winning the Finals in 2010? I'm sure somebody has the screen shots or links from the time.

[NumberSix]

Unfortunately for elite NBA players, the standards by which your measured are a lot more strict than your typical football or baseball hall of famer and everybody knows the reason for it
That's not true at all. The reasons by which most people judge individual basketball players are very frivolous.

[TAC602]

That's not true at all. The reasons by which most people judge individual basketball players are very frivolous.

How many players in the consensus top 10 would you remove just based on individual play? And who would you have replace them? In a lot of cases, they'd be there anyway. And if not, they aren't too far from the cream of the crop. In fact, their individual play was a significant factor in why they were able to win titles in the first place.

[DMAVS41]

You're not talking about the best player. You're talking about the most accomplished player.

Michael Jordan from the first 3peat and couple seasons before that was the greatest NBA player of all time. Winning another 3 championships after the fact has no impact on that. If he would have only had those 3 championships he still would be the best ever. The second 3peat MJ has nothing to do with that. MJ from the first 3 was CLEARLY better. Adding accomplishments after you're not the best anymore doesn't change what you were before. That's already done.

Shaq from the Lakers 3peat is a top 10 player. You wouldn't demote him because he was worse after. What someone does afterwards doesn't change what they were at the time.

I'm simply explaining to you how people rank players here. If you want to use your own criteria...i'm all for it. I think ranking players the way most do here can be extremely flawed.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I understand what both DMavs and NumberSix are saying.

I don't think Lebron will ever be better than he was in '09 and '10, but you're left to wonder because he didn't have a team that I'd expect him or any other player to win a title with.

This year's finals have to make you question Lebron a bit. I did think Miami would win when last season, but I also said that I'd allow them one year. However, that kind of goes out the window because they were in the finals with home court vs a team with less talent who virtually nobody expected to be there, he had the help necessary to win in the series, and probably would have had he played anywhere near his usual level. That factors in to how I rank him.

And even last year vs Boston, I wouldn't expect him to win with the cast he had(though I didn't think Boston was going to be as good as they were in the playoffs either), but the Cavs definitely had a chance if Lebron played near his usual level. He dominated 2 games(both of which they won), and played well below his usual level in the other 4.

You're left to wonder when with a 2-1 lead, Lebron shoots under 40% each of the last 3 games, has more turnovers than made field goals and shoots worse than the rest of his team in each game.

As I've said, I couldn't have asked for more in 2009. They had no business looking as dominant as they did in the regular season and first 2 rounds of the playoffs, and while they had a very good cast as far as shooters, defenders and rebounders, they simply suffered from the match up problems Lewis and Howard caused, the fact that Orlando had more talent and then there's bad luck involved(games 1 and 4 were decided by a shot, so was game 2, but Lebron made that shot). Not to mention that his second option shot 37%. But with what we've seen from Lebron mentally in the biggest moments, is there a guarantee, he would have kept it up in the finals?

And as laughable as it would be to expect him to beat Boston in 2008. When you look at how horrible he was most of that series and the fact that it went to 7 games, it's worth mentioning that Lebron shot 36% in the series and averaged over 5 turnovers. I give him credit for his great game 7, but with how bad he played for most of the series, you're left to wonder, and considering that Ray was in the worst shooting slump of his career, that was a good opportunity for an upset. Though I took that to be Lebron's flaws being exposed to some degree compared to the improved '09-'11 version.

Was horrible in the 2007 finals, but it's not hard to see why, he wasn't nearly as good then, and it was tough going up against that Spurs team with his team overmatched.

But right now, Lebron doesn't merely have a "good cast" that is about average compared to other stars who have won, imo. He has Wade(who is at worst, a top 4 player, arguably better) and a 6-time all-star as his 3rd option.

How much 2 rings would move Lebron up depends on his performance during those runs, because of the amazing talent he plays with, if he's not really impressing me(whether it be Miami completely dominating or Lebron having to dominate for Miami to win), then he won't move up much higher on my list, though I already rank him in the top 11-15 range, probably not as high as 11, though. He does have something to prove.

[Jacks3]

That's not true at all. The reasons by which most people judge individual basketball players are very frivolous.
This. I'll never understand why people use contextual things like accolades and rings to judge players.

[kentatm]

well according to LBJ stans....."winning has no bearing on how good a player is".."it's just blind luck and special teammates"


so .....:confusedshrug:


but we all know thats not what they would say if he won :lol

[NumberSix]

This. I'll never understand why people use contextual things like accolades and rings to judge players.
I just don't understand how anyone can say a player might someday be "top whatever" when he's already past his peak. If he's not already there and he's just going to decline from this point, how can he be considered better than what he already is? How does your status get higher as you're getting worse?

If you wanna argue that LeBron hasn't past his prime, then fine, that's a different story. But, if you do agree that he's declining, how could he ever be considered better than he was in his prime?

How do you say "Oh, now he's a top 10 player, but he wasn't back when he was better"?

[RRR3]

I just don't understand how anyone can say a player might someday be "top whatever" when he's already past his peak. If he's not already there and he's just going to decline from this point, how can he be considered better than what he already is? How does your status get higher as you're getting worse?

If you wanna argue that LeBron hasn't past his prime, then fine, that's a different story. But, if you do agree that he's declining, how could he ever be considered better than he was in his prime?

How do you say "Oh, now he's a top 10 player, but he wasn't back when he was better"?
:cheers: Keep in mind that Kobe today would get embarassed by Afro Kobe, but Kobe is considered the best today way more than he was back in the Shaq days. Rings really seem to change people's views of players. If LeBron averages 20/5/5 next year, but hits the finals winning shot I guarantee a lot of people will be saying "he's now the best player after all these years".

[d.bball.guy]

If he wins FMVP, great(IMO). If not, f*ck off ring chaser.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I understand what both DMavs and NumberSix are saying.

I don't think Lebron will ever be better than he was in '09 and '10, but you're left to wonder because he didn't have a team that I'd expect him or any other player to win a title with.

This year's finals have to make you question Lebron a bit. I did think Miami would win when last season, but I also said that I'd allow them one year. However, that kind of goes out the window because they were in the finals with home court vs a team with less talent who virtually nobody expected to be there, he had the help necessary to win in the series, and probably would have had he played anywhere near his usual level. That factors in to how I rank him.

And even last year vs Boston, I wouldn't expect him to win with the cast he had(though I didn't think Boston was going to be as good as they were in the playoffs either), but the Cavs definitely had a chance if Lebron played near his usual level. He dominated 2 games(both of which they won), and played well below his usual level in the other 4.

You're left to wonder when with a 2-1 lead, Lebron shoots under 40% each of the last 3 games, has more turnovers than made field goals and shoots worse than the rest of his team in each game.

As I've said, I couldn't have asked for more in 2009. They had no business looking as dominant as they did in the regular season and first 2 rounds of the playoffs, and while they had a very good cast as far as shooters, defenders and rebounders, they simply suffered from the match up problems Lewis and Howard caused, the fact that Orlando had more talent and then there's bad luck involved(games 1 and 4 were decided by a shot, so was game 2, but Lebron made that shot). Not to mention that his second option shot 37%. But with what we've seen from Lebron mentally in the biggest moments, is there a guarantee, he would have kept it up in the finals?

And as laughable as it would be to expect him to beat Boston in 2008. When you look at how horrible he was most of that series and the fact that it went to 7 games, it's worth mentioning that Lebron shot 36% in the series and averaged over 5 turnovers. I give him credit for his great game 7, but with how bad he played for most of the series, you're left to wonder, and considering that Ray was in the worst shooting slump of his career, that was a good opportunity for an upset. Though I took that to be Lebron's flaws being exposed to some degree compared to the improved '09-'11 version.

Was horrible in the 2007 finals, but it's not hard to see why, he wasn't nearly as good then, and it was tough going up against that Spurs team with his team overmatched.

But right now, Lebron doesn't merely have a "good cast" that is about average compared to other stars who have won, imo. He has Wade(who is at worst, a top 4 player, arguably better) and a 6-time all-star as his 3rd option.

How much 2 rings would move Lebron up depends on his performance during those runs, because of the amazing talent he plays with, if he's not really impressing me(whether it be Miami completely dominating or Lebron having to dominate for Miami to win), then he won't move up much higher on my list, though I already rank him in the top 11-15 range, probably not as high as 11, though. He does have something to prove.

This is exactly my opinion on the matter as well. Although I don't have him in the top 11-15 range, I do have him in my top 20, and simply being that high is saying much considering how much I dislike the guy and he has yet to win a ring.

How he's viewed in my eyes if (hypothetically) he wins the next two chips largely depends on the degree to which he accomplished said tasks.

[Simple Jack]

I just don't understand how anyone can say a player might someday be "top whatever" when he's already past his peak. If he's not already there and he's just going to decline from this point, how can he be considered better than what he already is? How does your status get higher as you're getting worse?

If you wanna argue that LeBron hasn't past his prime, then fine, that's a different story. But, if you do agree that he's declining, how could he ever be considered better than he was in his prime?

How do you say "Oh, now he's a top 10 player, but he wasn't back when he was better"?


Because the issue becomes career achievements. I don't think anyone would argue that KG in 08 is > 04, but his career took a huge boost because he led the team to a ring. It's not always the most logical thing, but for the most part, it's 2 separate topics. Most people would like to think it goes hand in hand, and it sometimes does, but there are many other factors in play.

[Butters]

There is a player who is in everybodies top 6 players of all time.Everybodies.He has also lost in the finals 4 times.

The point?Winning heals all.Nobody will remember or talk about LeBron losing if he starts winning now.

3-4 titles with his same production stat wise over a long term career and he's going to go down as a top 8-10 player of all time.

[AlphaWolf24]

There is a player who is in everybodies top 6 players of all time.Everybodies.He has also lost in the finals 4 times.

The point?Winning heals all.Nobody will remember or talk about LeBron losing if he starts winning now.

3-4 titles with his same production stat wise over a long term career and he's going to go down as a top 8-10 player of all time.


did he also quit on a back 2 back 60+ win team with the best record in the NBA?...and go Ring chasing by joining 2 other Allstars in the their prime , one being a top 3 player in the NBA?



http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2129000/AlphaWolf-2129139_600_409.jpg

[AlphaWolf24]

Celtics
Pistons
Lakers
Philly
Bulls

Going back into the 60's, some of these teams, more than once.

Having 2 top 5 players, Bosh, and a TERRIBLE bench and relatively inexperienced coach does not mean it is the most stacked team in history. Unless 4-12 doesn't matter for you.

Greatest 1-3? Even that's debatable; but sure as hell a bit easier to prove than the most stacked TEAM (1-12) ever.

I've seen people say the Lakers (this year) were more stacked than the Heat. Now that they lost, you, and a bunch of others, want to overrate the quality of the team to hate on LeBron. What a surprise.


The only team that has a chance to claim "stacked" next to the Heat is the 80's Celtics....

Chris Bosh is a better scorer and a better overall player then Parish

Wade is one of the greatest perimeter players of all time..IMO a better player then Mchale.

Bird is a better player then Lebron....but again...Lebron has a top 3 player and a top 5 PF...

Bibby vs DJ = wash

maybe Ainge slightly over Chalmers...

....Haslem , Z , Chalmers and Anthony are good....not sure why you discredit them?

your whole arguement comes down to coaching...

in other words ...FAIL



No one outside a few Kobe ditractors said the Lakers with Kobe and gasol were as stacked as the Heat.


please.....keep fishing.

[Butters]

did he also quit on a back 2 back 60+ win team with the best record in the NBA?...and go Ring chasing by joining 2 other Allstars in the their prime , one being a top 3 player in the NBA?



http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2129000/AlphaWolf-2129139_600_409.jpg

Ring chasing and having people "think" you quit on your team wont get you out of your deserved position.

See Kobe and Shaq.One who obviously went chasing and the other who has been accused of quitting on his team.One is top 10 all time,the other is accepted as top 8-12.

[DMAVS41]

I understand what both DMavs and NumberSix are saying.

I don't think Lebron will ever be better than he was in '09 and '10, but you're left to wonder because he didn't have a team that I'd expect him or any other player to win a title with.

This year's finals have to make you question Lebron a bit. I did think Miami would win when last season, but I also said that I'd allow them one year. However, that kind of goes out the window because they were in the finals with home court vs a team with less talent who virtually nobody expected to be there, he had the help necessary to win in the series, and probably would have had he played anywhere near his usual level. That factors in to how I rank him.

And even last year vs Boston, I wouldn't expect him to win with the cast he had(though I didn't think Boston was going to be as good as they were in the playoffs either), but the Cavs definitely had a chance if Lebron played near his usual level. He dominated 2 games(both of which they won), and played well below his usual level in the other 4.

You're left to wonder when with a 2-1 lead, Lebron shoots under 40% each of the last 3 games, has more turnovers than made field goals and shoots worse than the rest of his team in each game.

As I've said, I couldn't have asked for more in 2009. They had no business looking as dominant as they did in the regular season and first 2 rounds of the playoffs, and while they had a very good cast as far as shooters, defenders and rebounders, they simply suffered from the match up problems Lewis and Howard caused, the fact that Orlando had more talent and then there's bad luck involved(games 1 and 4 were decided by a shot, so was game 2, but Lebron made that shot). Not to mention that his second option shot 37%. But with what we've seen from Lebron mentally in the biggest moments, is there a guarantee, he would have kept it up in the finals?

And as laughable as it would be to expect him to beat Boston in 2008. When you look at how horrible he was most of that series and the fact that it went to 7 games, it's worth mentioning that Lebron shot 36% in the series and averaged over 5 turnovers. I give him credit for his great game 7, but with how bad he played for most of the series, you're left to wonder, and considering that Ray was in the worst shooting slump of his career, that was a good opportunity for an upset. Though I took that to be Lebron's flaws being exposed to some degree compared to the improved '09-'11 version.

Was horrible in the 2007 finals, but it's not hard to see why, he wasn't nearly as good then, and it was tough going up against that Spurs team with his team overmatched.

But right now, Lebron doesn't merely have a "good cast" that is about average compared to other stars who have won, imo. He has Wade(who is at worst, a top 4 player, arguably better) and a 6-time all-star as his 3rd option.

How much 2 rings would move Lebron up depends on his performance during those runs, because of the amazing talent he plays with, if he's not really impressing me(whether it be Miami completely dominating or Lebron having to dominate for Miami to win), then he won't move up much higher on my list, though I already rank him in the top 11-15 range, probably not as high as 11, though. He does have something to prove.

Yep. Lebron is difficult to rank now. I don't have him as high as you, but I will by the time he's done for sure. He's now crumbled in the finals twice. He had that weird last three games against Boston last year. And all the other things you say. That factors in for sure. On the other hand, 07 should be viewed as a positive. He came the closest to beating the Celtics out of any team in 08. He was amazing in 09. He has 2 MVP's and some of the best numbers ever. He's only 26.

So its just a really tough case. This year really hurts him though. Better team than the team he lost to in the finals and if Lebron plays just average the Heat win. I hate to put so much emphasis on one series, but it was by far the biggest series of Lebron's career and he could not have played worse...on both ends mind you.

Right now I have Lebron around 20 to 25 all time. He'll move up for sure and is a lock for the top 15...probably top 12 when he's done regardless of what happens.

Moving up much higher than that is going to be more dependent on how he plays than what he accomplishes. Yes, he has to win multiple titles, but just winning won't be enough. To get in the top 10 he has to pass guys like Kobe and Hakeem and West and Moses...etc. He's going to need longevity combined with great play and winning. Can he do that? Sure, but the 11 finals will always be a huge blackmark.

But again, this is why I defend Lebron. You already have him in the 11 to 15 range as a player after 8 years. I don't care what anyone says, the day before his first game if someone told you that this high school kid would be at worst the 15th best player of all time....no way would anyone look at them and say:

"Damn...that is underachieving"

Maybe you could say that after the 09 season where it looked like Lebron was going to do things not even the people with the highest expectations imagined. But not before his first game ever played.

So to the thread. If Lebron plays great and wins the title the next 2 years....I'll have him right around number 10 to 12 all time.

[RRR3]

Yep. Lebron is difficult to rank now. I don't have him as high as you, but I will by the time he's done for sure. He's now crumbled in the finals twice. He had that weird last three games against Boston last year. And all the other things you say. That factors in for sure. On the other hand, 07 should be viewed as a positive. He came the closest to beating the Celtics out of any team in 08. He was amazing in 09. He has 2 MVP's and some of the best numbers ever. He's only 26.

So its just a really tough case. This year really hurts him though. Better team than the team he lost to in the finals and if Lebron plays just average the Heat win. I hate to put so much emphasis on one series, but it was by far the biggest series of Lebron's career and he could not have played worse...on both ends mind you.

Right now I have Lebron around 20 to 25 all time. He'll move up for sure and is a lock for the top 15...probably top 12 when he's done regardless of what happens.

Moving up much higher than that is going to be more dependent on how he plays than what he accomplishes. Yes, he has to win multiple titles, but just winning won't be enough. To get in the top 10 he has to pass guys like Kobe and Hakeem and West and Moses...etc. He's going to need longevity combined with great play and winning. Can he do that? Sure, but the 11 finals will always be a huge blackmark.

But again, this is why I defend Lebron. You already have him in the 11 to 15 range as a player after 8 years. I don't care what anyone says, the day before his first game if someone told you that this high school kid would be at worst the 15th best player of all time....no way would anyone look at them and say:

"Damn...that is underachieving"

Maybe you could say that after the 09 season where it looked like Lebron was going to do things not even the people with the highest expectations imagined. But not before his first game ever played.

So to the thread. If Lebron plays great and wins the title the next 2 years....I'll have him right around number 10 to 12 all time.
You honestly think if LeBron wins a few titles, he won't have a case for top 5? I do.

[All Net]

You honestly think if LeBron wins a few titles, he won't have a case for top 5? I do.
No he won't but then again it depends how he wins

[RRR3]

No he won't but then again it depends how he wins

LeBron's numbers are definitely top 5 worthy, the thing he is missing is the championships. If he gets a few rings and finals mvp's, and doesn't completely tank in his ability, then I think he could easily be top 5 all time.

[catch24]

No he won't but then again it depends how he wins

Yup, which is exactly why titles can be overrated AND overstated in a players pedigree. What matters is how that person performed obtaining a ring. Does Pippen (who was obviously GREAT) have the same legacy as Jordan because he also won 6 championships?

[ShaqAttack3234]

The only team that has a chance to claim "stacked" next to the Heat is the 80's Celtics....

Chris Bosh is a better scorer and a better overall player then Parish

Wade is one of the greatest perimeter players of all time..IMO a better player then Mchale.

Bird is a better player then Lebron....but again...Lebron has a top 3 player and a top 5 PF...

Bibby vs DJ = wash

maybe Ainge slightly over Chalmers...


:roll: Not sure why I'm even responding to you considering the garbage you typically post.

Parish was a considerably better defender and rebounder than Bosh. He was also more of a post player and fit in much better as a 3rd option, especially considering he was one of the best centers at running the floor.

DJ vs Bibby? Really?

It's also worth mentioning that contenders were more stacked in general in the 80's, but your statements are way off as usual.

:oldlol: at the 80's Lakers not being up there, and how about the '83 Sixers? Moses, Dr. J(MVP winner and another all-nba first team/top 5 MVP candidate even that year), Andrew Toney(20 ppg scorer), Mo Cheeks(good offensive point guard and one of the best defensive point guards). That team had gone 58-24 and lost in game 6 of the finals the previous year to incredibly loaded Laker team and then added league MVP Moses Malone to that.......think about that for a minute.

The '67 Sixers? Went 68-13, ended a run of 8 consecutive Celtics titles by beating them in 5, beat a Warrior team with 2 all-time greats in Thurmond and Barry, had the best player in the game that year and MVP Wilt Chamberlain and several other good/great players such as hall of famer Hal Greer(10-time all-star and 7-time all-nba player), hall of famer Billy Cunningham(top 3 MVP candidate 2 years later, 3 all-nba first teams ect.) Chet Walker(7-time all-star) and Luke Jackson(all-star 2 years earlier) all in the primes of their career on the same team.

I could go on and on, the Heat have a ton of talent, especially compared to their era, but :oldlol: at no other teams comparing.


Yep. Lebron is difficult to rank now. I don't have him as high as you, but I will by the time he's done for sure. He's now crumbled in the finals twice. He had that weird last three games against Boston last year. And all the other things you say. That factors in for sure. On the other hand, 07 should be viewed as a positive. He came the closest to beating the Celtics out of any team in 08. He was amazing in 09. He has 2 MVP's and some of the best numbers ever. He's only 26.

So its just a really tough case. This year really hurts him though. Better team than the team he lost to in the finals and if Lebron plays just average the Heat win. I hate to put so much emphasis on one series, but it was by far the biggest series of Lebron's career and he could not have played worse...on both ends mind you.

Right now I have Lebron around 20 to 25 all time. He'll move up for sure and is a lock for the top 15...probably top 12 when he's done regardless of what happens.

Moving up much higher than that is going to be more dependent on how he plays than what he accomplishes. Yes, he has to win multiple titles, but just winning won't be enough. To get in the top 10 he has to pass guys like Kobe and Hakeem and West and Moses...etc. He's going to need longevity combined with great play and winning. Can he do that? Sure, but the 11 finals will always be a huge blackmark.

But again, this is why I defend Lebron. You already have him in the 11 to 15 range as a player after 8 years. I don't care what anyone says, the day before his first game if someone told you that this high school kid would be at worst the 15th best player of all time....no way would anyone look at them and say:

"Damn...that is underachieving"

Maybe you could say that after the 09 season where it looked like Lebron was going to do things not even the people with the highest expectations imagined. But not before his first game ever played.

So to the thread. If Lebron plays great and wins the title the next 2 years....I'll have him right around number 10 to 12 all time.

I defended Lebron quite a bit with the sidekick talk and all of that before the season, and still think it's ridiculous to call him a sidekick. But I feel like defending him a lot less after the finals this year, he really disappointed me. Never considered myself a Lebron stan or anything, and think I've been pretty objective in my praise and criticism of him, which is pretty much that he's already played at a level and accomplished things individually(and to some extent, from a team perspective in Cleveland) that very few in the history of the game can match, but that he's also had some shockingly disappointing moments for a player of that caliber.

[catch24]

:roll: Not sure why I'm even responding to you considering the garbage you typically post.

Parish was a considerably better defender and rebounder than Bosh. He was also more of a post player and fit in much better as a 3rd option, especially considering he was one of the best centers at running the floor.

DJ vs Bibby? Really?

It's also worth mentioning that contenders were more stacked in general in the 80's, but your statements are way off as usual.

:oldlol: at the 80's Lakers not being up there, and how about the '83 Sixers? Moses, Dr. J(MVP winner and another all-nba first team/top 5 MVP candidate even that year), Andrew Toney(20 ppg scorer), Mo Cheeks(good offensive point guard and one of the best defensive point guards). That team had gone 58-24 and lost in game 6 of the finals the previous year to incredibly loaded Laker team and then added league MVP Moses Malone to that.......think about that for a minute.

The '67 Sixers? Went 68-13, ended a run of 8 consecutive Celtics titles by beating them in 5, beat a Warrior team with 2 all-time greats in Thurmond and Barry, had the best player in the game that year and MVP Wilt Chamberlain and several other good/great players such as hall of famer Hal Greer(10-time all-star and 7-time all-nba player), hall of famer Billy Cunningham(top 3 MVP candidate 2 years later, 3 all-nba first teams ect.) Chet Walker(7-time all-star) and Luke Jackson(all-star 2 years earlier) all in the primes of their career on the same team.

I could go on and on, the Heat have a ton of talent, especially compared to their era, but :oldlol: at no other teams comparing.



I defended Lebron quite a bit with the sidekick talk and all of that before the season, and still think it's ridiculous to call him a sidekick. But I feel like defending him a lot less after the finals this year, he really disappointed me. Never considered myself a Lebron stan or anything, and think I've been pretty objective in my praise and criticism of him, which is pretty much that he's already played at a level and accomplished things individually(and to some extent, from a team perspective in Cleveland) that very few in the history of the game can match, but that he's also had some shockingly disappointing moments for a player of that caliber.

It's good to hear he's working with Hakeem this off season. Not sure how much it's going to help, but at least he's willing to improve. I think above all else, LeBron needs to become mentally tougher. His demeanor his last two postseason exits have been uninspired and borderline shameful. It's almost as if he quit. Clearly he's capable of performing better AND until he figures how to approach the games correctly, he isn't winning anything.

[cteach111]

let's put some opinions out here: if Lebron continues to play like he did these past playoffs and wins a few titles, then I wouldn't rank him past guys like Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, etc.

I'm a bit different with how I see Lebron from other guys on this forum. Even at his peak, he wasn't better than those guys IMO. My criticisms come from the shortcomings in his game. At 24-25 years old, i don't see how he would have the tools necessary to deal with those greats.


LeBron's numbers are definitely top 5 worthy, the thing he is missing is the championships. If he gets a few rings and finals mvp's, and doesn't completely tank in his ability, then I think he could easily be top 5 all time.

From a historical perspective, his numbers look great, but his game at those points in time still left a lot to be desired. You could easily argue that as good as Lebron was, he may not have been a true elite perimeter player.

This is a hypothetical situation, but say Lebron wins with a different style of game than the one he had at 24-25.. that absolutely needs to be taken into account. What if he learns some off-ball, post-scoring game that he goes to quite often? IMO, that needs to be accounted for when ranking him among the upper echelon of greats.

You can't just say, well if Lebron wins 4 titles, then imagine what 09 Lebron would do.

[Butters]

LeBron's numbers are definitely top 5 worthy, the thing he is missing is the championships. If he gets a few rings and finals mvp's, and doesn't completely tank in his ability, then I think he could easily be top 5 all time.

Top 7 is what he can shoot for.LeBron will never pass anyone in the immortal 6.Kobe can't even do it,i doubt any player can at this point.

[Simple Jack]

let's put some opinions out here: if Lebron continues to play like he did these past playoffs and wins a few titles, then I wouldn't rank him past guys like Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Duncan, etc.

I'm a bit different with how I see Lebron from other guys on this forum. Even at his peak, he wasn't better than those guys IMO. My criticisms come from the shortcomings in his game. At 24-25 years old, i don't see how he would have the tools necessary to deal with those greats.



From a historical perspective, his numbers look great, but his game at those points in time still left a lot to be desired. You could easily argue that as good as Lebron was, he may not have been a true elite perimeter player.

This is a hypothetical situation, but say Lebron wins with a different style of game than the one he had at 24-25.. that absolutely needs to be taken into account. What if he learns some off-ball, post-scoring game that he goes to quite often? IMO, that needs to be accounted for when ranking him among the upper echelon of greats.

You can't just say, well if Lebron wins 4 titles, then imagine what 09 Lebron would do.


No you can't.

[cteach111]

No you can't.

I realize i'm in the minority on this but look at the top 10

MJ
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Magic
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt

9 out of 10 of those players have a vast array of skills/moves that are competent enough to keep elite defenses honest with Magic perhaps having the most limited skillset of those 9, but he could run an offense so well and post up quite effectively. Keep in mind that I'm not really talking about early-80s Magic.

Tell me, what's a 24-25 year old Lebron gonna be able to do to an elite team? If his jumper wasn't falling, he's got nothing else to fall back on. At that point in time, he was more of a rhythm shooter.

There was also talk of Wade/Amare coming to the Cavs at that time, but we're already seeing that the chemistry between Wade/James hasn't been THAT good. The reason for that is skill for the most part. Sure, they got to the finals, but I believe they did so mostly on talent.


Look... I have a very strict definition of an elite perimeter player and there's only been perhaps 3 or 4 of them... MJ, Bird, Magic, and a big maybe on Kobe.

Bird was extremely efficient from the field and could hit jumpers with the near-consistency of Nowitzki. Of course, the guy was one of the best passers in basketball and his defense was at least average.

Magic's D left a lot to be desired, but he was so good on the offensive end that it made up for it. He could run an all-time offense, hit his FT's, and postgame made him almost impossible to defend.

Jordan? He was an all-time perimeter defender. We've all seen enough to know that he is the greatest scorer the game has seen, but how did he get those points? Off-ball game, iso-game, post-up game, averaging 84% from the FT line. He was so good at scoring that you HAD to double-triple team him and that opened up the passing game quite a bit. He was literally almost the best of Kobe's skills/Wade finishing ability hybrid.

I've always had problems with Lebron's game. He's predictable when he drives to the basket, his FT shooting is just average, his shooting game at that age was suspect. Overall, his scoring game lacks versatility. His defense at that time was pretty good (in 2010) though. It's a game that he can use to great effectiveness against average to below-average teams, but he just needs more in his toolbox to deal with the upper-level teams.

I would say Lebron is around Kobe's level in a sense. Lebron puts up a lot of numbers, but when you watch his game, it's clear he lacks versatility. Kobe is opposite in a way; he has all the moves and his defense is not too shabby, but his overall effectiveness does not match up with Lebron's.

[Jacks3]

Kobe isn't an elite perimeter player?:roll:

[DMAVS41]

I realize i'm in the minority on this but look at the top 10

MJ
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Magic
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt

9 out of 10 of those players have a vast array of skills/moves that are competent enough to keep elite defenses honest with Magic perhaps having the most limited skillset of those 9, but he could run an offense so well and post up quite effectively. Keep in mind that I'm not really talking about early-80s Magic.

Tell me, what's a 24-25 year old Lebron gonna be able to do to an elite team? If his jumper wasn't falling, he's got nothing else to fall back on. At that point in time, he was more of a rhythm shooter.

There was also talk of Wade/Amare coming to the Cavs at that time, but we're already seeing that the chemistry between Wade/James hasn't been THAT good. The reason for that is skill for the most part. Sure, they got to the finals, but I believe they did so mostly on talent.


Look... I have a very strict definition of an elite perimeter player and there's only been perhaps 3 or 4 of them... MJ, Bird, Magic, and a big maybe on Kobe.

Bird was extremely efficient from the field and could hit jumpers with the near-consistency of Nowitzki. Of course, the guy was one of the best passers in basketball and his defense was at least average.

Magic's D left a lot to be desired, but he was so good on the offensive end that it made up for it. He could run an all-time offense, hit his FT's, and postgame made him almost impossible to defend.

Jordan? He was an all-time perimeter defender. We've all seen enough to know that he is the greatest scorer the game has seen, but how did he get those points? Off-ball game, iso-game, post-up game, averaging 84% from the FT line. He was so good at scoring that you HAD to double-triple team him and that opened up the passing game quite a bit. He was literally almost the best of Kobe's skills/Wade finishing ability hybrid.

I've always had problems with Lebron's game. He's predictable when he drives to the basket, his FT shooting is just average, his shooting game at that age was suspect. Overall, his scoring game lacks versatility. His defense at that time was pretty good (in 2010) though. It's a game that he can use to great effectiveness against average to below-average teams, but he just needs more in his toolbox to deal with the upper-level teams.

I would say Lebron is around Kobe's level in a sense. Lebron puts up a lot of numbers, but when you watch his game, it's clear he lacks versatility. Kobe is opposite in a way; he has all the moves and his defense is not too shabby, but his overall effectiveness does not match up with Lebron's.

So Jerry West and Oscar weren't elite players?

Lebron at his peak in 09 was doing crazy things on both ends. That evolution in his game from 08 to 09 is what started most of the top 5 of all time hype.

If 09 Lebron wasn't an elite perimeter player....then the only elite perimeter player all time is MJ. Because peak MJ is the only perimeter guy I can think of that I would take over 09 Lebron. He was great on both ends of the floor. Not sure what more you want.

And Kobe is definitely an elite perimeter player.

[cteach111]

So Jerry West and Oscar weren't elite players?

Lebron at his peak in 09 was doing crazy things on both ends. That evolution in his game from 08 to 09 is what started most of the top 5 of all time hype.

If 09 Lebron wasn't an elite perimeter player....then the only elite perimeter player all time is MJ. Because peak MJ is the only perimeter guy I can think of that I would take over 09 Lebron. He was great on both ends of the floor. Not sure what more you want.

And Kobe is definitely an elite perimeter player.

you're saying you'd take 09 lebron over a prime bird/magic. i disagree with that.

[RRR3]

you're saying you'd take 09 lebron over a prime bird/magic. i disagree with that.
09 LeBron had an amazing year

[chips93]

you've got a pretty high opinion of what elite is

you should have just said that lebron wont end up being a top 3 offensive perimeter player

[DMAVS41]

you're saying you'd take 09 lebron over a prime bird/magic. i disagree with that.

No. I'm saying that if 09 Lebron doesn't qualify for "elite"....then really only MJ is an elite perimeter player.

I don't know if peak Bird was better than 09 Lebron. Same with Magic. Its debatable either way....that is for sure.

Did you actually see what he did? By pretty much any production/objective measure it was one of the best seasons ever. And if we are comparing Lebron to Magic/Bird....Lebron played defense at a level that neither of those guys ever did.

Lebron was definitely elite in 09....

[TAC602]

Lebron in 09 was fantastic, but was he really that much greater than Dwyane Wade that season individually? I don't see anybody giving him credit for a Top 5 peak. Anybody who thinks Wade wasn't on the same tier wasn't paying attention. He was elite in every facet that season.

[TAC602]

And before the torrent of objections, I realize Wade wasn't himself physically in those playoffs and Lebron had 35/9/7 and what have you. Is that what its being singled down into? It's so miniscule, if that's the case... a couple of phenomenal playoff series?

[DMAVS41]

And before the torrent of objections, I realize Wade wasn't himself physically in those playoffs and Lebron had 35/9/7 and what have you. Is that what its being singled down into? It's so miniscule, if that's the case... a couple of phenomenal playoff series?

Wade was definitely elite in 09...

[TAC602]

Wade was definitely elite in 09...

Probably played the best basketball of his life, at least where the regular season is concerned.

What I'm stuck on is this whole peak talk. From 08-10, Lebron was legendary in the regular season. In the 08 playoffs, he wasn't all time great. In 09, he was miraculous, sure. Somehow this is just the greatest postseason ever apparently. In 10, as great as his numbers appear to be, people who watched those games know better. How this puts him in the same league as Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq and Jordan, I guess I'll never know. Its not like their runs took place in the 1960s or even the 80s. Two of them came in the same decade.

[Jacks3]

Dude led a team with Mo Williams as his second best player to 66 wins,was #1 in every single objective measurement (Volume stats/PER/WS/pure +/-,adj +/-,WP,etc) and was the best defender at his position. Then he had perhaps the best post-season ever.

lol @ Wade being on the same level. There's a reason LBJ is compared to guys like Bird/Magic/Jordan and is a legitimate potential top 5 player ever...Wade really isn't close..

[TAC602]

Dude led a team with Mo Williams as his second best player to 66 wins,was #1 in every single objective measurement (Volume stats/PER/WS/pure +/-,adj +/-,WP,etc) and was the best defender at his position. Then he had perhaps the best post-season ever.

lol @ Wade being on the same level. There's a reason LBJ is compared to guys like Bird/Magic/Jordan and is a legitimate potential top 5 player ever...Wade really isn't close..

Yeah, except Wade was better in PPG, APG, BPG, SPG... Lebron was No. 1 in everything, for sure.

And he's definitely on par with the aforementioned four players. Nevermind that two of them are probably the best defensive anchors since the post-merger. Wow, let's also penalize them for getting to and performing on the biggest stage. Perhaps if we only compare them up to the rounds in which Lebron was eliminated, then he can be the greatest of all time.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Yeah, except Wade was better in PPG, APG, BPG, SPG... Lebron was No. 1 in everything, for sure.

And he's definitely on par with the aforementioned four players. Nevermind that two of them are probably the best defensive anchors since the post-merger. Wow, let's also penalize them for getting to and performing on the biggest stage. Perhaps if we only compare them up to the rounds in which Lebron was eliminated, then he can be the greatest of all time.
He is a typical Wade hater, I would ignore any of his posts regarding Wade.

Anyways, you have made some pretty damn good posts here, let me ask you a question that you probably already know what I'm going to ask you, but who is currently better to you Wade or Lebron?

[TAC602]

Wade, in a heartbeat.

Lebron James is a total joke until further notice.

[LeFraud James]

I'm actually looking forward to seeing LeBron finish his career without a ring; if he fails to shift into that final gear that everyone knows he is capable of, then I doubt he wins a chip.


Knowing LeBron, his ego is scrutinizing every inch of his brain to no avail.



He doesn't have much longer......

[TAC602]

Hmm.... I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not but would you mind clarifying your answer.

No sarcasm at all. Lebron just had one of the biggest meltdowns possibly ever for a player of his caliber.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, except Wade was better in PPG, APG, BPG, SPG... Lebron was No. 1 in everything, for sure.
LBJ was easily superior numbers-wise, had more impact outside the box-score, and was better defensively. He also had a much better playoff run. You think Wade is getting that team to to 66 wins?:oldlol:

And yeah, he was #1 in literally every single stat out there. PER/WS/WS48/ADJ +/-,raw +/-, etc. Wade isn't close.

And he's definitely on par with the aforementioned four players. Nevermind that two of them are probably the best defensive anchors since the post-merger. Wow, let's also penalize them for getting to and performing on the biggest stage. Perhaps if we only compare them up to the rounds in which Lebron was eliminated, then he can be the greatest of all time.
And those two guys aren't on LBJ's level offensively...

Regardless whether u think peak Hakeem/Duncan/Shaq/Jordan are better doesn't really matter...The fact is his peak is still top 6-7 ever, arguably top 5.

Wade might not be in the top 15. Not.Close.

[Jacks3]

He is a typical Wade hater, I would ignore any of his posts regarding Wade.


:oldlol:

I'm a hater for telling the truth?

LBJ>Wade

Deal with it. :pimp:

[chips93]

Knowing LeBron, his ego is scrutinizing every inch of his brain to no avail.





:roll:

what, you go to high school with him?

:facepalm at you 'knowing' lebron

[TAC602]

LBJ was easily superior numbers-wise, had more impact outside the box-score, and was better defensively. He also had a much better playoff run. You think Wade is getting that team to to 66 wins?:oldlol:

And yeah, he was #1 in literally every single stat out there. PER/WS/WS48/ADJ +/-,raw +/-, etc. Wade isn't close.

I never said James didn't have a better season, especially considering the playoffs. I asked how much greater he was than Wade and individually, it is close. Wade in all likelihood isn't taking that particular team to 66 wins, but its funny how you want to include team success when before it wasn't relevant. Save the abtract numbers. Do you actually recite that stuff when talking to a person in real life about basketball? I'd be embarrassed.


And those two guys aren't on LBJ's level offensively...

The gap isn't large enough to make up the difference. And Hakeem is most definitely on Lebron's level, is that a joke? One of Olajuwon's most valuable and underrated traits was his ability to get any shot he wanted, whether in the low post or mid-range, back to basket or face up. He had perimeter star like closing ability, especially under Tomjonovich when the Rockets finally got their shit together offensively. Go back and see how many shots Olajuwon was taking during those runs. In 1995 for example, Olajuwon increased his FGA by nearly a whopping 5 Shots Per Game in the playoffs and had virtually zero drop off in efficiency. He went ballistic, easily topping 30+ shots multiple times, 40+ points multiple times on blistering efficiency. For touting how much shot attempts are skill, you ought to be floored by that. He shot them right into the Finals in one of the toughest roads to the Finals in league history

He's anything but a liability in crunch time, and even hit FTs at a respectable rate. His scoring in the regular season compared to the playoffs when the star players are supposed to step up is drastically different, and in favor of postseason play. Lebron even by TS% has no real advantage and he certainly wasn't as versatile. I'm sure you were including playmaking into the equation, but again.. he's getting beat on the boards as well as defensively overall.


The fact is his peak is still top 6-7 ever, arguably top 5.

Wade might not be in the top 15. Not.Close.

Getting warmer. I don't really care where Wade ranks.

[ThaSwagg3r]

No sarcasm at all. Lebron just had one of the biggest meltdowns possibly ever for a player of his caliber.
Is this your only argument? Would you mind explaining your thoughts on this comparison thoroughly like you did in your last post in this thread??

[zay_24]

Doesn't really do much. People already know how great of a player he is, they just use the no rings to hate on him because they don't like his decisions as a person.

However, sweeping LA would officially end this unnecessary debate between him and Kobe
How? Kobe would be around 35 in 2012??

[TAC602]

Is this your only argument? Would you mind explaining your thoughts on this comparison thoroughly like you did in your last post in this thread??

Honestly, it would come out looking like a reworded paste job of the post Vragrant made in your other thread. There's no doubt my opinion of James as a player got even more drastically worse after the Finals like a lot of people. But even before that I felt like he was getting a lot of unwarranted adulation for what he did in the Boston series. Wade did work against Boston and anybody who watched that series knows that, but yet because James hits a few three-pointers, he's somehow the player of the series. And while theres no doubt he had a better ECF, all of the clutch plays Wade made at the end of those games go unnoticed or without mention.

There wasn't any type of substantial pressure on James in that "heroic" Game 5 to deliver. They were up 3-1 with Game 6 to be played in Miami. It reeks of frontrunning performance. I feel like Wade has always been the one who doesn't bat an eye at situations when the chips aren't in his favor. 2010, he was down 0-3 against Boston and comes out and delivers one his best playoff performances ever. He wasn't rolling over nor was he out there to meet a stat quota. James on the otherhand, was locked in a 2-2 series with HCA as the No. 1 seed and completely shuts it down midway through the game when Boston gains momentum... pretty disgusting, really.

[TAC602]

Here's a perfect example. This piece of garbage from the Chicago Sun-Times, no less:

Lebron James Has Equaled MJ's Greatness
CHICAGO SUN-TIMES
MAY 28, 2011
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/5633807-417/lebron-james-has-equaled-mjs-greatness.html


We’ve been waiting for the next Jordan to show up. He’s here. He arrived Thursday night. He doesn’t have Jordan’s six NBA titles. He doesn’t have any titles. But barring injury to Miami’s Big Three, those titles are going to issue forth in a gush. There are going to be flood warnings by the time James is done.

That look of determination, of supreme confidence, of amusement at someone else’s pain —


He’s as good as The Best There Ever Was.

I know: It was only the Eastern Conference finals.

I know: He hasn’t won anything yet.

But the NBA is all about talent, and the Heat has more of it than anybody else, just as the Bulls did in Jordan’s day. And in the middle of those halcyon days in the 1990s, it would’ve been impossible for any of us to be swayed in our belief that we were watching something special in progress

[Simple Jack]

I never said James didn't have a better season, especially considering the playoffs. I asked how much greater he was than Wade and individually, it is close. Wade in all likelihood isn't taking that particular team to 66 wins, but its funny how you want to include team success when before it wasn't relevant. Save the abtract numbers. Do you actually recite that stuff when talking to a person in real life about basketball? I'd be embarrassed.



The gap isn't large enough to make up the difference. And Hakeem is most definitely on Lebron's level, is that a joke? One of Olajuwon's most valuable and underrated traits was his ability to get any shot he wanted, whether in the low post or mid-range, back to basket or face up. He had perimeter star like closing ability, especially under Tomjonovich when the Rockets finally got their shit together offensively. Go back and see how many shots Olajuwon was taking during those runs. In 1995 for example, Olajuwon increased his FGA by nearly a whopping 5 Shots Per Game in the playoffs and had virtually zero drop off in efficiency. He went ballistic, easily topping 30+ shots multiple times, 40+ points multiple times on blistering efficiency. For touting how much shot attempts are skill, you ought to be floored by that. He shot them right into the Finals in one of the toughest roads to the Finals in league history

He's anything but a liability in crunch time, and even hit FTs at a respectable rate. His scoring in the regular season compared to the playoffs when the star players are supposed to step up is drastically different, and in favor of postseason play. Lebron even by TS% has no real advantage and he certainly wasn't as versatile. I'm sure you were including playmaking into the equation, but again.. he's getting beat on the boards as well as defensively overall.



Getting warmer. I don't really care where Wade ranks.

Says the guy, who just a page ago, said LeBron may not even be an elite perimeter player.

Being more versatile on offense does not always translate, and often DOES NOT translate, to being a more effective and efficient offensive player.

[catch24]

Says the guy, who just a page ago, said LeBron may not even be an elite perimeter player.

Being more versatile on offense does not always translate, and often DOES NOT translate, to being a more effective and efficient offensive player.

That was 'cteach111'.

[Lebron23]

He's no longer my favorite player in the league, BUT I am still rooting for him to win an NBA title next season.

[PowerGlove]

He's no longer my favorite player in the league, BUT I am still rooting for him to win an NBA title next season.
:oldlol:

[cteach111]

That was 'cteach111'.

i stand by what i said. As good as he was at that time, he's not a guy that's gonna be a problem for elite teams. If he's not hitting his J, he's got nothing else to bring to the table. His driving game? It's effective until he faces teams that are smart enough or have the capabilities to cut off the lanes. He doesn't drive with the same effectiveness that a Wade, Jordan, and a number of other players could.

He can't shoot the ball like a Bird, Dirk. He can't run a team to the same effectiveness that Magic could. He can't score like MJ could. So, even despite what his absurd numbers say, what kind of threat is he really to great teams? Teams give him the open jumpshot because up to this point, he's been inconsistent with it. His FT shooting is average, so fouling him doesn't hurt the opposing team as much as it should.

How do we know if we were to add a guy like Wade to that team, that his assertivness wouldn't go down? His offball game is nonexistent as we've seen this year.

My point is teams can exploit him because he has absolutely no moves except you're standard jumper and the absurd athleticism to get in the paint. As a supposed elite perimeter player, that's not gonna get it done against elite teams because you have to keep the defenses guessing.

Jordan, Bird, Magic (because of his absurd ability to run an offense AND play in the post) all had a much wider skillset to supplement their gaudy statistics. Lebron's been mostly a one-trick pony. He's got the statistics, but he lacks the skill in comparison to what a true elite perimeter player should be and it makes him predictable.

If Lebron wants to maximize the offensive capabilities of the team, he himself needs to be indefensible. He doesn't need to be Jordan or Bird, but he at least needs to be Magic in terms of having some sort of move that screams "you can't stop me".

His defense is good though, but not in an all-time sense. He hasn't brought the same consistency on that end that many of the best perimeter players in the league have been able to like Jordan, Moncrief, Payton, etc. He plays all-time D in spurts.

I guess I'll just say, Lebron does a lot of things well, but not one thing truly great and that hurts him.

[TAC602]

Says the guy, who just a page ago, said LeBron may not even be an elite perimeter player.

Are you sure?


Being more versatile on offense does not always translate, and often DOES NOT translate, to being a more effective and efficient offensive player.

Who could possibly be more of an exception to this rule than the guy Lebron's been taking lessons from? I wasn't speaking in generalities, I was talking about Hakeem Olajuwon. Dude above who was probably shitting in pampers when Olajuwon was going on his historic runs said he wasn't on the same level. Considering the esteem I have for O'Neal at his peak, I'm not up for being lectured on production vs versatility.

[AlphaWolf24]

ShaqAttack3234]:roll: Not sure why I'm even responding to you considering the garbage you typically post.

Parish was a considerably better defender and rebounder than Bosh. He was also more of a post player and fit in much better as a 3rd option, especially considering he was one of the best centers at running the floor.

DJ vs Bibby? Really?

It's also worth mentioning that contenders were more stacked in general in the 80's, but your statements are way off as usual.

:oldlol: at the 80's Lakers not being up there, and how about the '83 Sixers? Moses, Dr. J(MVP winner and another all-nba first team/top 5 MVP candidate even that year), Andrew Toney(20 ppg scorer), Mo Cheeks(good offensive point guard and one of the best defensive point guards). That team had gone 58-24 and lost in game 6 of the finals the previous year to incredibly loaded Laker team and then added league MVP Moses Malone to that.......think about that for a minute.

The '67 Sixers? Went 68-13, ended a run of 8 consecutive Celtics titles by beating them in 5, beat a Warrior team with 2 all-time greats in Thurmond and Barry, had the best player in the game that year and MVP Wilt Chamberlain and several other good/great players such as hall of famer Hal Greer(10-time all-star and 7-time all-nba player), hall of famer Billy Cunningham(top 3 MVP candidate 2 years later, 3 all-nba first teams ect.) Chet Walker(7-time all-star) and Luke Jackson(all-star 2 years earlier) all in the primes of their career on the same team.

I could go on and on, the Heat have a ton of talent, especially compared to their era, but :oldlol: at no other teams comparing.


You sound all Fussy again.....

why do you respond to me?

Answer = because I know when to call you on all your BullSh!t...

Your spit is whack and you try to hide behind looped hooks ....and yet I can still see through your lack of knowledge.

I'm talking about a team bieng "Stacked".....not being a great "team"...but being stacked talent and skill wise.

No way in Hell Parish is a more talented or skilled player then Chrish Bosh....did Parish fit in the system better and become a better 3rd option?.....maybe...But Chris Bosh is a Better player then Parish ....

I watched Parish in the 80's and I never seen him have ability to create offensively or be the stretched out defender Bosh has been....Bosh is a better offensive player and a slightly better stretched out defender also...

so please save us the Agenda B.S....

Dr.J was 32 and on his last legs.....LBJ>Dr.J....Moses Malone was putting up 24 and 10... Moses>Bosh....Wade> Toney ....fo sho...No where near 2 of the top 3 NBA players on the same team at their peak

Miami had a better team on paper with Miami's Big 3 outscoring Philly's Big 3....Miami having 3 allstars in their peak ..your only hope for your argument is Mo Cheeks playing so much better then Bibby and Chalmers...

But in terms of talent and skill ...Miami having 2 of the top 3 players in the NBA at their peak outshines Mo Cheeks slightly better perimeter defense then Chalmers and Bibby:lol

all your other BS is just you talkin outta your behind....you never watched any of those teams from the 60's.....you just tryinn to sound Big...but failing just like Shaq.


please don't respond....i see right through your revisionist history.



next

[ShaqAttack3234]

You sound all Fussy again.....

why do you respond to me?

Answer = because I know when to call you on all your BullSh!t...

Your spit is whack and you try to hide behind looped hooks ....and yet I can still see through your lack of knowledge.

I'm talking about a team bieng "Stacked".....not being a great "team"...but being stacked talent and skill wise.

No way in Hell Parish is a more talented or skilled player then Chrish Bosh....did Parish fit in the system better and become a better 3rd option?.....maybe...But Chris Bosh is a Better player then Parish ....

I watched Parish in the 80's and I never seen him have ability to create offensively or be the stretched out defender Bosh has been....Bosh is a better offensive player and a slightly better stretched out defender also...

so please save us the Agenda B.S....

Dr.J was 32 and on his last legs.....LBJ>Dr.J....Moses Malone was putting up 24 and 10... Moses>Bosh....Wade> Toney ....fo sho...No where near 2 of the top 3 NBA players on the same team at their peak

Miami had a better team on paper with Miami's Big 3 outscoring Philly's Big 3....Miami having 3 allstars in their peak ..your only hope for your argument is Mo Cheeks playing so much better then Bibby and Chalmers...

But in terms of talent and skill ...Miami having 2 of the top 3 players in the NBA at their peak outshines Mo Cheeks slightly better perimeter defense then Chalmers and Bibby:lol

all your other BS is just you talkin outta your behind....you never watched any of those teams from the 60's.....you just tryinn to sound Big...but failing just like Shaq.


please don't respond....i see right through your revisionist history.



next

Actually, I know a lot more about NBA history than you do, and anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge on the subject knows how talented the '67 Sixers were.

What ****ing agenda could I possibly have here?

As far as the '83 Sixers? You're exposing yourself as a complete moron and troll once again.

Dr. J was on his last legs? Hmmm.

1982- 3rd in MVP voting, led Philadelphia to a 58-24 record and to the finals.

That's what he did as the man on his team, just a year earlier. Now onto the year in question.

1983- 5th in MVP voting, all-nba first team

A team is more than just 3 players.

Moses Malone was the MVP and he replaced Caldwell Jones on a 58-24 finals team.

Bobby Jones had made the all-star team in both 1981 and 1982(4 NBA all-star teams overall and another ABA all-star selection), he also made 8 consecutive all-defensive first teams from '77-'84, 10 if you include the 2 that he made in the ABA and he made an additional all-defensive second team in 1985.

That all-star and perennial member of the all-defensive team was pushed to the bench and played only 24 mpg because the '83 Sixers were so loaded. He went on to win the 6th man of the year award.

Mo Cheeks also made the all-star team in 1983(the first of 4 selections) and the first of 4 consecutive all-defensive first teams and 5 consecutive all-defensive teams overall.

Andrew Toney was the 3rd option, and still putting up 20/5 on 50% shooting, he also made the all-star team in '83, he'd make another one in '84 but his career went downhill due to injuries.

The '83 Sixers had the MVP, 2 all-nba first team members, 4 all-stars overall, 3 members of the all-defensive first team and the 6th man of the year who had been an all-star the previous 2 seasons.

These are facts.

[AlphaWolf24]

Actually, I know a lot more about NBA history than you do, and anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge on the subject knows how talented the '67 Sixers were.

What ****ing agenda could I possibly have here?

As far as the '83 Sixers? You're exposing yourself as a complete moron and troll once again.

Dr. J was on his last legs? Hmmm.

1982- 3rd in MVP voting, led Philadelphia to a 58-24 record and to the finals.

That's what he did as the man on his team, just a year earlier. Now onto the year in question.

1983- 5th in MVP voting, all-nba first team

A team is more than just 3 players.

Moses Malone was the MVP and he replaced Caldwell Jones on a 58-24 finals team.

Bobby Jones had made the all-star team in 1982, he also made 8 consecutive all-defensive first teams from '77-'84, 10 if you include the 2 that he made in the ABA and he made an additional all-defensive second team in 1985.

That all-star and perennial member of the all-defensive team was pushed to the bench and played only 24 mpg because the '83 Sixers were so loaded. He went on to win the 6th man of the year award.

Mo Cheeks also made the all-star team in 1983(the first of 4 selections) and the first of 4 consecutive all-defensive first teams and 5 consecutive all-defensive teams overall.

Andrew Toney was the 3rd option, and still putting up 20/5 on 50% shooting, he also made the all-star team in '83, he'd make another one in '84 but his career went downhill due to injuries.

The '83 Sixers had the MVP, 2 all-nba first team members, 4 all-stars overall, 3 members of the all-defensive first team and the 6th man of the year who had been an all-star the previous season.

These are facts.


1rst...so you admit you never watched the 60's teams?...great so your full of sh!t


2nd......Your saying a 32 year old Dr.J is on par with a 26 year old Lebron James?...your full of sh!t again...and Toney was No where near D Wade....

3rd....the 80's were a totally different era...when many teams had multiple stars....were talking about modern NBA with 3 Top 15 players all in their prime with 2 top 3 players....to go along with a former allstar Big Man coming off the bench.

if Bobby Jones making the ABA allstar team in the 70's is proving you right when Udonis Haslem is putting up better numbers then You got me.

But in the Modern era having the Roster that the Heat have with 2 top 3 players in their peak is like having 7 allstars on 1 team during the 80's


Your knowledge is blinded by your bland elitist attitude that reeks of BS....really comparing Toney and 32 year old Dr.J to Wade and James is silly and Tired.

2X League MVP and perhaps the most Athletically gifted player ever....plus one of the greatest SG's in NBA History..to go along with a 24PPG 10 reb caliber Top 5 PF all In Their Prime> 32 year old Dr.J , Toney , Malone and Bobby Jones....those are facts.

I have forgotten more basketball while watching Head Bangers Ball and Yo MTV Raps then you and your weak azz BS will ever post on the interwebz...



next

[ShaqAttack3234]

1rst...so you admit you never watched the 60's teams?...great so your full of sh!t


2nd......Your saying a 32 year old Dr.J is on par with a 26 year old Lebron James?...your full of sh!t again...and James Toney was No where near D Wade....

3rd....the 80's were a totally different era...when many teams had multiple stars....were talking about modern NBA with 3 Top 15 players all in their prime with 2 top 3 players....to go along with a former allstar Big Man coming off the bench.

if Bobby Jones making the ABA allstar team in the 70's is proving you right when Udonis Haslem is putting up better numbers then You got me.

But in the Modern era having the Roster that the Heat have with 2 top 3 players in their peak is like having 7 allstars on 1 team during the 80's


Your knowledge is blinded by your bland elitist attitude that reeks of BS....really comparing Toney and 32 year old Dr.J to Wade and James is silly and Tired.


I have forgotten more basketball while watching Head Bangers Ball and Yo MTV Raps then you and your weak azz BS will ever post on the interwebz...



next

:roll: You didn't even know who Andrew Toney was. But yeah, you've forgotten more than I know. Ok....

Who the hell is comparing just Dr. J and Toney to Wade? A basketball team is more than 2 players, The '83 Sixers had 5 all-star caliber players, one of them coming off the bench, 2 of them on the all-nba first team that year.

Think about this, regardless of era, they add the league MVP to a team that was already in the finals...

Once again, I'm done arguing with you. You don't even attempt to have a real discussion. I come here to discuss basketball, but I have no idea why you do. I don't believe that you actually believe a lot of what you post, and this is a prime example.

A guy who claims to be in their 30's, yet spends a good chunk of his time trolling a message board? :facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: You didn't even know who Andrew Toney was. But yeah, you've forgotten more than I know. Ok....

Who the hell is comparing just Dr. J and Toney to Wade? A basketball team is more than 2 players, The '83 Sixers had 5 all-star caliber players, one of them coming off the bench, 2 of them on the all-nba first team that year.

Think about this, regardless of era, they add the league MVP to a team that was already in the finals...

Once again, I'm done arguing with you. You don't even attempt to have a real discussion. I come here to discuss basketball, but I have no idea why you do. I don't believe that you actually believe a lot of what you post, and this is a prime example.

A guy who claims to be in their 30's, yet spends a good chunk of his time trolling a message board? :facepalm

I know who "toney" is..he's a chubby Middleweight that just got merked by a 46 year old wrestler...

I caught my self thinking about MMA that's why changed it...(before you said anything)..so neener...neener...neener!

and Your saying the Sixers having Cheeks and Bobby Jones makes them more stacked then the Heat with James , Wade , and Bosh all in their prime.

again....Your saying Cheeks and Jones somehow make up for the clear gap in skill and athleticism.....that Bosh Wade and James have over Toney and Dr.J?????

and to add....The Heat have Haslem (who was putting equal or better numbers then Jones) and Bibby/Chalmers....not exactly scrubs..


and you don't come here to talk Hoops....you come here to sound like a elitist fan spewing trash to sound smart.:lol ..you just got all fussy because I see through your Bunk.

I just come here to have fun....I don't need to spew garbage and act like I'm better then everyone because I know how to type about the 67' sixers or Drew Toney and bobby Jones:lol

please don't respond to me....your fussy and Butthurt because I know my game and can call you on it.



pleez...Next

[Simple Jack]

Are you sure?



Mixed you guys up. Sorry about that.

[DMAVS41]

I know who "toney" is..he's a chubby Middleweight that just got merked by a 46 year old wrestler...

I caught my self thinking about MMA that's why changed it...(before you said anything)..so neener...neener...neener!

and Your saying the Sixers having Cheeks and Bobby Jones makes them more stacked then the Heat with James , Wade , and Bosh all in their prime.

again....Your saying Cheeks and Jones somehow make up for the clear gap in skill and athleticism.....that Bosh Wade and James have over Toney and Dr.J?????

and to add....The Heat have Haslem (who was putting equal or better numbers then Jones) and Bibby/Chalmers....not exactly scrubs..


and you don't come here to talk Hoops....you come here to sound like a elitist fan spewing trash to sound smart.:lol ..you just got all fussy because I see through your Bunk.

I just come here to have fun....I don't need to spew garbage and act like I'm better then everyone because I know how to type about the 67' sixers or Drew Toney and bobby Jones:lol

please don't respond to me....your fussy and Butthurt because I know my game and can call you on it.



pleez...Next


Bibby: 3.6 PER in the playoffs this year. 28% fg. 26% 3. 50% FT. 37% TS. He's a horrible defender as well. He was the very definition of a scrub. Its hard to play worse in 21 minutes a game. 4 points 2 boards 1 assist. LOL

You obviously didn't watch so many of the great teams to play in the NBA. Its not just about raw talent. Yes, that is probably the most important aspect of winning in the NBA, but that talent has to fit together. And teams need certain things to win. The Heat were/are definitely stacked....but they are hardly the most stacked team ever in terms of ability to win. Wade and Lebron don't fit together. Bosh doesn't bring anything to the table defensively and he's mentally/physically soft. Why is Bosh still considered an elite player? He's a rich man's Antawn Jamison if I'm being kind. Maybe he would be better in a different role on a different team, but that is not where he is. He's on the Heat....and on the Heat he's probably not even a top 20 player in the league.

The 83 Sixers were simply a more "stacked" team in terms of winning. Along with the 86 Celtics.....and many other teams throughout NBA history.

But anyway...back to Bibby not being a scrub. LOL...he was probably the worst player in the entire playoffs based on impact combined with minutes played. He was simply all time bad.

[RRR3]

@Dmavs,

Why on earth wasn't Chalmers starting? I still don't get this, :wtf:

[DMAVS41]

@Dmavs,

Why on earth wasn't Chalmers starting? I still don't get this, :wtf:

There must have been some issue about Bibby not being able to play with the bench unit because of his inept play on both sides. I'm sure the thinking was that if he's that bad with star players out there....how bad would he be in the 2nd unit.

But that speaks to the point. Bibby was absolutely horrible....and he was playing 21 minutes a game. On a team that already was paper thin.

I just think people forget that Bibby was terrible. Miller didn't do anything. James Jones fell out of the rotation for some nagging injury reasons. Chalmers has little experience. Anthony can't get a rebound or finish to save his life. I love Haslem, but he wasn't himself yet really. He only played 12 games in the playoffs and was a 5/5 player in 24 minutes and shot under 40%.

Then you get to the big 3. Wade and Lebron don't compliment each other great. Bosh provides very little of what the Heat actually needed out of a big.

Now, if Miller and Haslem had been healthy and played like they normally do then this conversation might be different. But think about this:

Miller/Haslem/Anthony/Bibby combined for 15 points 15 boards 4 assists and shot somewhere around 35% from the field combined in the playoffs. LOL

That is not the most stacked team ever. No ****ing way. Stacked? Absolutely. All time stacked big 3? Sure. Most stacked team ever? LOL