ISH Group Project: Ranking the top 25 NBA guards of all-time

[G.O.A.T]

ISH GROUP Project

Ranking the top 25 Guards in American Pro Basketball History

If you would like to join the project or participate in the upcoming forward and center projects, let us know in this thread...

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Official rules of the project

1) Only the votes of ISH members included in the main roster will count towards the final tally
1A) Please BOLD your vote to make it easier for me to see.

2) Voting starts when I create the thread and ends when I close it. All threads will stay open for at least 48 hours or until one candidate has received more than 50% of the possible votes.

3) In the event of a tie at the end of the 48+ hour period, I will announce sudden death and the next vote from a roster member or contributor will break the tie.

4) Anyone who distracts from the topic of the thread or those closely related and/or is seen as a general nuisance by the majority of interested parties on the roster may be removed from the project at any time. There is no appeal process.

5) Don't ****ing take this seriously, it's an online list made by anonymous strangers.

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The Roster

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
Kblaze8855 (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)



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Top 25
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#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton
#9
#8

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Debate Threads
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#7
#8 Dwyane Wade vs. Walt Frazier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234923)
#9 John Stockton vs. Walt Frazier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234778) (11-12)
#10 John Stockton vs. Jason Kidd (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234708) (13-3)
#11 Steve Nash vs. Jason Kidd (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234593) (9-10)
#12 Steve Nash vs. Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6327028#post6327028) (10-9)
#13 Steve Nash vs. Gary Payton (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234317) (11-4)
#14 Allen Iverson vs. Gary Payton (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234184) (3-13)
#15 Allen Iverson vs. George Gervin (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234012) (9-6)
#16 Hal Greer vs. George Gervin (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233956) (2-10)
#17 Hal Greer vs. Sam Jones (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6308405#post6308405) (8-7)
#18 Hal Greer vs. Ray Allen (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233690) (11-3)
#19 Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233539) (4-8)
#20 Reggie Miller vs. Dennis Johnson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233386) (10-4)
#21 Tiny Archibald vs. Dennis Johnson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233240) (6-7)
#22 Tiny Archibald vs. Tracy McGrady (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233078) (7-6)
#23 Earl Monroe vs. Tiny Archibald (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232980) (0-9)
#24 Earl Monroe vs. Joe Dumars (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232748) (5-3)
#25 Bill Sharman vs. Joe Dumars (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232506) (4-5)
Kevin Johnson vs. Bill Sharman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232342) (4-6)
Chris Paul vs. Joe Dumars (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232340) (7-8)

[L.Kizzle]

So here is the idea. We take the collective intelligence of ISH (I know scary right) and try to come up with a list of the best 25 guards, forwards and centers in NBA history.

We eliminate PG vs. SG and SF vs. PF which eliminates those pointless debates. The only tough one will be Tim Duncan, but I think he has to go as a F since PF is officially his position.

Here's how it works. Volunteer to participate, if two other members vouch for you, you're in. We'll take between 15 and 25 people for the project.

The opening round will be everyone making their own top 25 list and posting it/editing it as the debate goes on. After a week everyone's list will be final. I'll assign points (25 for first, 1 for 25th) and tally up each players score then post the top 26. From there we will debate and vote on individual match-ups starting with #26 vs. #25. The player who wins the vote will advance to face the #24 ranked player and we will debate that. The player who losses the vote will be slotted in the appropriate spot and that will be our final result.

Do we have any interest?
I'm down. I have an old list I made a while back I'll try to search for.

[ThaSwagg3r]

I will participate in this project.

[L.Kizzle]

We gotta start off by who a guard and who's a forward?

Arizin
McGrady
Vince Carter
Lou Hudson
Cliff Hagan
Richie Guerin

Are they gonna be small forwards or shooting guards in these rankings.

[WillC]

I know I'm new to the boards, but I'd be very interested and feel qualified to join in.

[G.O.A.T]

We gotta start off by who a guard and who's a forward?

Arizin
McGrady
Vince Carter
Lou Hudson
Cliff Hagan
Richie Guerin

Are they gonna be small forwards or shooting guards in these rankings.

Arizin and Hagan almost always played forward. They never started at guard.

I see Vince and T-MAC as guards as well as Richie Guerin who always played guard from what I can recall, first alongside Dick McGuire, then Lenny Wilkens.

Hudson is a forward.

Any objections there?

[ThaSwagg3r]

Here's how it works. Volunteer to participate, if two other members vouch for you, you're in. We'll take between 15 and 25 people for the project.

I think you're asking for too much here. I feel like only 10-15 will participate at the most, 25 is too much. And I don't know about the vouching part because that will probably take a while. Maybe you should just get these possible participants to just show (link) their best posts on this site and you judge whether they are worthy or not.

[G.O.A.T]

I know I'm new to the boards, but I'd be very interested and feel qualified to join in.

I'll be the first to vouch for you based on your blog alone.

Also @ ALL

Here is a list of sixty-four guards I believe we should consider:

Allen, Ray
Archibald, Nate
Billups, Chauncey
Bing, Dave
Bryant, Kobe
Carter, Vince
Cassell, Sam
Cheeks, Maurice
Cousy, Bob
Davies, Bob
Davis, Walter
Drexler, Clyde
Dumars, Joe
Frazier, Walt
Gervin, George
Ginobili, Manu
Gola, Tom
Goodrich, Gail
Greer, Hal
Guerin, Richie
Hardaway, Anfernee
Hardaway, Tim
Iverson, Allen
Johnson, Dennis
Johnson, Kevin
Johnson, Magic
Jones, Sam
Jordan, Michael
Kidd, Jason
Maravich, Pete
Martin, Slater
McGrady, Tracy
McGuire, Dick
Miller, Reggie
Moncrief, Sidney
Monroe, Earl
Nash, Steve
Nixon, Norm
Parker, Tony
Paul, Chris
Payton, Gary
Price, Mark
Richmond, Mitch
Robertson, Alvin
Robertson, Oscar
Rodgers, Guy
Rose, Derrick
Seymour, Paul
Sharman, Bill
Sloan, Jerry
Sprewell, Latrell
Stockton, John
Thomas, Isiah
Thompson, David
Van Lier, Norm
Wade, Dwyane
Wanzer, Bobby
West, Jerry
Westphal, Paul
White, JoJo
Wilkens, Lenny
Williams, Deron
Williams, Gus
Zaslofsky, Max

[G.O.A.T]

I think you're asking for too much here. I feel like only 10-15 will participate at the most, 25 is too much. And I don't know about the vouching part because that will probably take a while. Maybe you should just get these possible participants to just show (link) their best posts on this site and you judge whether they are worthy or not.


I was mostly just trying to put a limit on it. This project is very flexible. Just gauging response right now.

[RRR3]

This isn't in order or final, just off the top of my head...

MJ
Kobe
Magic
Gervin
Oscar Robertson
T-Mac
Vince Carter
AI
Drexler
West
Havlicek?
DWade
Ray Allen
Payton
Frazier
Stockton
Kidd

[Rose]

This isn't in order or final, just off the top of my head...

MJ
Kobe
Magic
Gervin
Oscar Robertson
T-Mac
Vince Carter
AI
Drexler
West
Havlicek?
DWade
Ray Allen
Payton
Frazier
Stockton
Kidd
I'm gonna start with this guys list and take off Havlicek because I think he's more of a Small forward. And I'd add Nash, KJ, Dwill, Cousy, Zeke and then for the other 3 slots probably...Reggie, Pistol, and hmm...I have no clue. Those are around my top 25. Although Carter and T-Mac I could easily say their way out of it.

Sam Jones, Hal Greer, and Jerry Sloan as well. Shit forgot Pearl

Just realized I forgot CP3. lol. That definitely throws out Dwill.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm gonna start with this guys list and take off Havlicek because I think he's more of a Small forward. And I'd add Nash, KJ, Dwill, Cousy, Zeke and then for the other 3 slots probably...Reggie, Pistol, and hmm...I have no clue. Those are around my top 25. Although Carter and T-Mac I could easily say their way out of it.

Sam Jones, Hal Greer, and Jerry Sloan as well.

you in? this is sort of the next best thing to my failed panel of 21 idea...

[RRR3]

I'm gonna start with this guys list and take off Havlicek because I think he's more of a Small forward. And I'd add Nash, KJ, Dwill, Cousy, Zeke and then for the other 3 slots probably...Reggie, Pistol, and hmm...I have no clue. Those are around my top 25. Although Carter and T-Mac I could easily say their way out of it.

Sam Jones, Hal Greer, and Jerry Sloan as well.
You have to consider that McGrady's peak shits on most of those guys you listed. He's had a better career than Cousy, DWill and KJ IMO. Certainly Dwill who hasn't played long enough. VC's peak was pretty great too. One thing that always shocks me is how good of a 3pt shooter VC was.

[Rose]

you in? this is sort of the next best thing to my failed panel of 21 idea...
Haha it failed? Not enough interest?

I'll definitely comment and help. But much before the 80s, and basically all I know is Bill Simmons opinion.:lol Except on the important guys that are top 50 or so,

[WillC]

You have to consider that McGrady's peak shits on most of those guys you listed. He's had a better career than Cousy, DWill and KJ IMO. Certainly Dwill who hasn't played long enough. VC's peak was pretty great too. One thing that always shocks me is how good of a 3pt shooter VC was.

McGrady has had a better career than Cousy? Wow. What criteria are you using? PPG?

Cousy was All-NBA 1st Team 10 times and won multiple championships.

McGrady never got out of the 1st round of the playoffs.

[Rose]

You have to consider that McGrady's peak shits on most of those guys you listed. He's had a better career than Cousy, DWill and KJ IMO. Certainly Dwill who hasn't played long enough. VC's peak was pretty great too. One thing that always shocks me is how good of a 3pt shooter VC was.
Oh I agree. I think if Tmac gave a shit he's a top 20 player. I wouldn't say he's had a better career than those guys for sure though. Specifically Cousy. I think when judging guys before the modern era. You have to take into account how well they dominated it. And with the exception of Oscar, he was above all his peers.

D-will's had some pretty good effective seasons. He's been as much as I hate this word,...very efficient, which makes up for the lack of sheer numbers. I can definitely see how you'd say he's not top 25 though. He didn't really do much the first 1.5 years of his career.

[RRR3]

McGrady has had a better career than Cousy? Wow. What criteria are you using? PPG?

Cousy was All-NBA 1st Team 10 times and won multiple championships.

McGrady never got out of the 1st round of the playoffs.


McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era. McGrady played on terrible Orlando teams, and he and Yao were rarely healthy at the same time in Houston.

[RRR3]

Oh I agree. I think if Tmac gave a shit he's a top 20 player. I wouldn't say he's had a better career than those guys for sure though. Specifically Cousy. I think when judging guys before the modern era. You have to take into account how well they dominated it. And with the exception of Oscar, he was above all his peers.

D-will's had some pretty good effective seasons. He's been as much as I hate this word,...very efficient, which makes up for the lack of sheer numbers. I can definitely see how you'd say he's not top 25 though. He didn't really do much the first 1.5 years of his career.


Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)

[WillC]

McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era.

And this is the absolute proof that PER and WS/48 are completely meaningless. I'll say it again: Cousy is a 10-time All-League 1st Team member and has multiple championships. TMac never got past the 1st round of the playoffs. So who gives a damn what his PER and WS/48 were at his peak? It's all meaningless.

[G.O.A.T]

McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era. McGrady played on terrible Orlando teams, and he and Yao were rarely healthy at the same time in Houston.


The problem with this post is that the first point cancels out the second.

The reason McGrady's PER (which is a made up number by the way) is higher is because he had less players around him to share the statistical load. Right?

[RRR3]

The problem with this post is that the first point cancels out the second.

The reason McGrady's PER (which is a made up number by the way) is higher is because he had less players around him to share the statistical load. Right?

McGrady played well with Yao Ming too when he was healthy. He also only had one year (2002-03) where he truly played as well as he should have IMO.

[Rose]

Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)
Totally agree. I say top 10 sometimes, and get called foolish. But He did some amazing shit the first half of last decade. His peak is honestly one of the best for guards. ever.

[RRR3]

And this is the absolute proof that PER and WS/48 are completely meaningless. I'll say it again: Cousy is a 10-time All-League 1st Team member and has multiple championships. TMac never got past the 1st round of the playoffs. So who gives a damn what his PER and WS/48 were at his peak? It's all meaningless.

Team accomplishment.

[G.O.A.T]

Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)

Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the 4th best player in the league.

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?


Team accomplishment.

Basketball is a team sport. An individual player should be measured by how much he helps his team achieve those type of things.

[WillC]

Team accomplishment.

Something McGrady never learned how to contribute to.

[RRR3]

Totally agree. I say top 10 sometimes, and get called foolish. But He did some amazing shit the first half of last decade. His peak is honestly one of the best for guards. ever.

Agreed. People laugh at me too when I say I think McGrady could have been better than Kobe and LeBron (at least at offense, they both give a shit on D lol). However, McGrady could play very good D when he wanted, although that wasn't nearly often enough. As it is, I think he's top 50 all time, but that's way lower than I expected him to end up.:(

[RRR3]

Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the 4th best player in the league.

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?

Basketball is a team sport. An individual player should be measured by how much he helps his team achieve those type of things.

You can make a legitimate case for McGrady deserving the 2002-2003 MVP.

[Rose]

Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the 4th best player in the league.

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?
I'm a huge T-mac guy. But can you honestly say he had a team to lead(aside from the couple of years where Yao was healthy with him).

To me, he offered one of the more complete packages a player can offer. Not a Pippen/LeBron type package. But the next big thing.

I'd also add, that to me him not caring, was him not taking care of his body. It's why Jordan, was so effective for so long, or at least a large part. He made sure to take care of all his physical attributes and then maximize them with sheer talent/will. Tracy was never capable of that, mostly because outside of a year or two in Orlando, and maybe a season in Houston he never cared.

[RRR3]

Something McGrady never learned how to contribute to.
You do realize his playoff stats are exellent, don't you? I'd like to see anyone win shit with those Orlando teams he played on (Freakin Andrew Declerq was the starting C)

[Rose]

Agreed. People laugh at me too when I say I think McGrady could have been better than Kobe and LeBron (at least at offense, they both give a shit on D lol). However, McGrady could play very good D when he wanted, although that wasn't nearly often enough. As it is, I think he's top 50 all time, but that's way lower than I expected him to end up.:(
I'd disagree with him being top 50 all time. Maybe 75.


I like how the first couple pages of this are about a guy who's not even a top 10 guard ever.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Odinn]

This is my list;

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jerry West
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Oscar Robertson
7. George Gervin
8. Bob Cousy
9. Dwyane Wade
10. Clyde Drexler
11. Allen Iverson
12. Reggie Miller
13. John Stockton
14. Walt Frazier
15. Gary Payton
16. Ray Allen
17. Jason Kidd
18. Tracy McGrady
19. Pete Maravich
20. Steve Nash
21. Tiny Archibald
22. Vince Carter
23. Joe Dumars
24. Chauncey Billups
25. Chris Paul

[Rose]

Nice work Odinn, only a couple things I'd disagree with.:applause:

Also I realized I forgot CP3, when he's had arguably 2 of the best seasons for a pg ever.

[G.O.A.T]

You can make a legitimate case for McGrady deserving the 2002-2003 MVP.

Totally disagree. Duncan, Shaq and Garnett were all in their prime and on another level. If the award was going to go to anyone on an average team it was going to be Garnett. McGrady only got 4 of 199 first place votes. Kobe, who got twice as many votes, posted just as good of numbers while playing with Shaq.

[Wukillabeez78]

Nice work Odinn, only a couple things I'd disagree with.:applause:

Also I realized I forgot CP3, when he's had arguably 2 of the best seasons for a pg ever.

This is funny... Isiah Thomas's four season run from 1983-84 through 1986-87 is better than anything Chris Paul has done...

[G.O.A.T]

Just reminding everyone the purpose of this thread...please let me know if you intend to participate in the project.











So here is the idea. We take the collective intelligence of ISH (I know scary right) and try to come up with a list of the best 25 guards, forwards and centers in NBA history.

We eliminate PG vs. SG and SF vs. PF which eliminates those pointless debates. The only tough one will be Tim Duncan, but I think he has to go as a F since PF is officially his position.

Here's how it works. Volunteer to participate, if two other members vouch for you, you're in. We'll take between 15 and 25 people for the project.

The opening round will be everyone making their own top 25 list and posting it/editing it as the debate goes on. After a week everyone's list will be final. I'll assign points (25 for first, 1 for 25th) and tally up each players score then post the top 26. From there we will debate and vote on individual match-ups starting with #26 vs. #25. The player who wins the vote will advance to face the #24 ranked player and we will debate that. The player who losses the vote will be slotted in the appropriate spot and that will be our final result.

Do we have any interest?

Interested Members:

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
Will3
RRR3
Odinn

[L.Kizzle]

My list.



1. Michael Jordan
2. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Isiah Thomas
7. John Stockton
8. Bob Cousy

9. Walt "Clyde" Frazier
10. Jason Kidd
11. Clyde Drexler
12. Gary Payton
13. Allen Iverson
14. Dywane Wade
15. George Gervin
16. Steve Nash

17. Sam Jones
18. Hal Greer
19. Nate "Tiny" Archibald
20. Earl "the Pearl" Monroe
21. Reggie Miller
22. Tracy McGrady
23. Ray Allen
24. Dave Bing
25. David Thompson

Pistol Pete did get knocked out, happy Dash!

Wow, this was harder than it looked. I left off guys like DJ, CP3, Moncrief, Sharman, Lenny Wilkens, Dumars ect.

The group I bolded in the middle might be the toughest of the bunch to rank.

[WillC]

I'm definitely up for this. I feel quite strongly so look forward to joining in some good debates!

[Rose]

This is funny... Isiah Thomas's four season run from 1983-84 through 1986-87 is better than anything Chris Paul has done...
I...respectfully disagree. Because he had Dumars, and Microwave(while I realize they didn't share the floor together a lot), not to mention Tripucka(sp?) and Lambieer weren't slouches either and those two guards alone are better options than CP3 had in West, and Peja.

Although I do admit that zeke's pistons advancing farther in the playoffs does count for something.

[Wukillabeez78]

Add my name to the list, I will participate. Just make sure you decide on how you want to do this. Is the group you decide on going to come up with the lists privately and then after coming to a consensus post it or is it just going to be a free-for-all with us just posting our lists individually (like some have done in this thread)?

[Wukillabeez78]

I...respectfully disagree. Because he had Dumars, and Microwave(while I realize they didn't share the floor together a lot), not to mention Tripucka(sp?) and Lambieer weren't slouches either and those two guards alone are better options than CP3 had in West, and Peja.

Although I do admit that zeke's pistons advancing farther in the playoffs does count for something.

Not sure if you know that era very well. Tripucka was there but he was just a one-dimensional scorer (which is why they got rid of him later on). Laimbeer was definitely good. Dumars was only there for the last 2 of those seasons I posted and he only averaged 10 points a game his 1st two years. Vinnie Johnson was there but again he was just a complementary player who was only a scorer. The Pistons in those years were no more talented than the teams Paul has been at the helm of recently and they weren't going far in the playoffs at that point. West is a better scorer (both inside and outside) than anyone Isiah had back then. CP3 has played with good scorers and slashers like Ariza, Posey, Bonzi Wells, Peja in addition to a good young center (Chandler) who was athletic enough to go up and finish alley oops. In their early years both Isiah and Paul were surrounded with a bunch of complementary players. The difference is the Pistons continued to build and add players through the draft and trades while the Hornets are basically more concerned about saving money.

Isiah in those years was putting up incredible numbers and trying to carry the team all by himself because he didn't have enough help to make headway against the 76ers, Boston, Bucks (hell they couldn't even beat the Knicks who really only had Bernard King). I'd rank Tim Hardaway's 4 year stretch from 1990-91 through 1994-1995 as being more comparable to Paul than what Isiah did...

[ThaSwagg3r]

Here is my top 25 at the moment, maybe you guys can change my mind along the way...

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. West
5. Oscar
6. Wade
7. Frazier
8. Isiah
9. Cousy
10. Drexler
11. Nash
12. Payton
13. Stockton
14. Kidd
15. Gervin
16. Iverson
17. Dennis Johnson
18. Archibald
19. Ray Allen
20. Dumars
21. Cp3
22. Greer
23. Sam Jones
24. Monroe
25. Moncrief

[rmt]

This is my list;

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jerry West
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Oscar Robertson
7. George Gervin
8. Bob Cousy
9. Dwyane Wade
10. Clyde Drexler
11. Allen Iverson
12. Reggie Miller
13. John Stockton
14. Walt Frazier
15. Gary Payton
16. Ray Allen
17. Jason Kidd
18. Tracy McGrady
19. Pete Maravich
20. Steve Nash
21. Tiny Archibald
22. Vince Carter
23. Joe Dumars
24. Chauncey Billups
25. Chris Paul

I don't even think Reggie Miller belongs on that list, much less at #12 - above Stockton, Kidd and Nash - yikes!

[L.Kizzle]

I don't even think Reggie Miller belongs on that list, much less at #12 - above Stockton, Kidd and Nash - yikes!
Miller belongs on the list, just not at number 12. The lower half of 25 is about right. I had him at number 23.

[Odinn]

much less at #12 - above Stockton, Kidd and Nash - yikes!
He led his team 1 time to finals and forced to P-Jax's Shaq's Lakers to game6 and he forced Jordan's Bulls to game game7. It's pretty impressive IMO. But I also started to consider drop him off to 17-22 range. #12 is definetly too much for Reggie. You're right.

-----

Top 3 is obvious. Right?
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kobe

I don't see anything to discuss about it.

[alenleomessi]

pistol pete is the most underappreciated player on this forum
he basically changed the game and some of u dont have him as a top 25 guard :ohwell:

[L.Kizzle]

pistol pete is the most underappreciated player on this forum
he basically changed the game and some of u dont have him as a top 25 guard :ohwell:
How did he change the game?

[KGMN]

I'm interested... are we supposed to post top 25 here, or on a different post later?
I promise not to be extremely biased towards the Minnesota Timberwolves, like I normally am.

[ThaSwagg3r]

pistol pete is the most underappreciated player on this forum
he basically changed the game and some of u dont have him as a top 25 guard :ohwell:
He was Stephon Marbury and he was voted as the 50 greatest players of all-time. He is overrated and he is not a top 25 guard of all-time.

[i3etz]

How did he change the game?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3527881&postcount=465

[L.Kizzle]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3527881&postcount=465
In your words, not from the thread starter ...

And that doesn't state how he changed the game.

[alenleomessi]

How did he change the game?
obviously his passing and dribbling style, he had ball skills that no one had seen before
being flashy was unknown before he came, dudes just stood around and pass

[L.Kizzle]

obviously his passing and dribbling style, he had ball skills that no one had seen before
being flashy was unknown before he came, dudes just stood around and pass
Tricky Dick McGuirre, Bob Cousy, Earl Monroe, Elgin Baylor, ect would beg to differ.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm interested... are we supposed to post top 25 here, or on a different post later?



Add my name to the list, I will participate. Just make sure you decide on how you want to do this. Is the group you decide on going to come up with the lists privately and then after coming to a consensus post it or is it just going to be a free-for-all with us just posting our lists individually (like some have done in this thread)?

Just post them here, we have some momentum, we'll keep it going. Remember too that you can edit your list as we go. A week from now we'll add up everyones lists and I'll start a new thread with the Top 26 vote getters.

[Dasher]

Pete Maravich and Reggie Miller shouldn't be on anyone's list, neither should Joe Dumars or Chris Paul.

[L.Kizzle]

Pete Maravich and Reggie Miller shouldn't be on anyone's list.
I think they should, just not anywhere near the top. I have them at 23 and 24.

[Dasher]

I think they should, just not anywhere near the top. I have them at 23 and 24.
Pete and Reggie are undeserving. I really don't think Joe Dumars should be on the list either.

[G.O.A.T]

1. Jeffrey
2. Buck
3. Bean
4. O
5. Logo
6. Zeke
7. Cooz
8. Clyde
9. Flash
10. J-Kidd
11. Drexler
12. Stockton
13. Payton
14. Nash
15. Iverson
16. Gervin
17. Hal Greer
18. Sam Jones
19. Dennis Johnson
20. Joe Dumars
21. Bill Sharman
22. Nate Archibald
23. Earl Monroe
24. Bob Davies
25. Reggie Miller
---------------
26. Sidney Moncrief
27. Ray Allen
28. Pistol
29. T-MAC

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, these are the guys I'm considering.

[G.O.A.T]

Pete Maravich and Reggie Miller shouldn't be on anyone's list, neither should Joe Dumars or Chris Paul.

What's your reasoning on Maravich, Dumars and Miller...?

Who is better and for what reasons?

[L.Kizzle]

Pete and Reggie are undeserving. I really don't think Joe Dumars should be on the list either.
I don't have Joe D on my list, or D Johnson.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Pete and Reggie are undeserving. I really don't think Joe Dumars should be on the list either.
If we are talking peaks, maybe so, but looking at Joe's career he should be.
1. Jeffrey
2. Buck
3. Bean
4. O
5. Logo
6. Zeke
7. Cooz
8. Clyde
9. Flash
10. J-Kidd
11. Drexler
12. Stockton
13. Payton
14. Nash
15. Iverson
16. Gervin
17. Sam Jones
18. Hal Greer
19. Dennis Johnson
20. Bill Sharman
21. Joe Dumars
22. Nate Archibald
23. Earl Monroe
24. Bob Davies
25. Reggie Miller
---------------
26. Sidney Moncrief
27. Ray Allen
28. Pistol
29. T-MAC

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, these are the guys I'm considering.
I thought when I saw Clyde above Wade you were talking Drexler but then I saw Drexler after Wade. :oldlol: Pretty good list, the only disagreement I have is that Allen should be way above Miller. No way was Miller better than him. Ray should be above Dumars too.

I actually forgot about DJ, good eye. :applause:

[G.O.A.T]

If we are talking peaks, maybe so, but looking at Joe's career he should be.

Just to be clear, I am not defining any criteria, to each their own. I would hope people would weigh peak, prime, longevity, resume, stats, popular/expert opinion etc. but in the end, it's a bunch of biased lists trying to produce one unbiased one.


I thought when I saw Clyde above Wade you were talking Drexler but then I saw Drexler after Wade. :oldlol: Pretty good list, the only disagreement I have is that Allen should be way above Miller. No way was Miller better than him. Ray should be above Dumars too.


Why should Allen be above Miller?

I mean, I can see a case for it, but you essentially have two guys who played a very similair style with similair results, except that Miller's teams were consitently good and frequently contenders and Allen's team were almost never contenders and missed the playoffs more often than they made them. Now the Boston yeas help sure, but Ray was the third or fourth best player on those teams. That's a much different role. Reggie taking the Pacers to the Finals plus two or three more ECF's puts him above Ray for me, but they are very very close IMO.

[Dasher]

I rank them thusly:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Walt Frazier
Jerry West
Bob Cousy
Lenny Wilkens
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Manu Ginnobili
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Clyde Drexler
Bill Sharman
Richie Guerin
Sam Jones
Dennis Johnson
Hal Greer
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Tiny Archibald
Earl Monroe

[L.Kizzle]

1. Jeffrey
2. Buck
3. Bean
4. O
5. Logo
6. Zeke
7. Cooz
8. Clyde
9. Flash
10. J-Kidd
11. Drexler
12. Stockton
13. Payton
14. Nash
15. Iverson
16. Gervin
17. Sam Jones
18. Hal Greer
19. Dennis Johnson
20. Bill Sharman
21. Joe Dumars
22. Nate Archibald
23. Earl Monroe
24. Bob Davies
25. Reggie Miller
---------------
26. Sidney Moncrief
27. Ray Allen
28. Pistol
29. T-MAC

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, these are the guys I'm considering.
Surprised by you having Bob Davies here. But he was the best guards before Bob Cousy emerged.

[KGMN]

Can I use a formula to rank them mathematically, then change as discussion continues? I don't have a formula yet, but I am currently putting statistics in Microsoft Excel for all of the guards you mentioned could possibly be in there earlier.

[G.O.A.T]

Surprised by you having Bob Davies here. But he was the best guards before Bob Cousy emerged.

I've learned a lot about him in the past two years. He was the unquestioned leader of the Royals (the second best team behind Mikan's Lakers for the first 4-5 years of the NBA) He led them to a title in 1951 as their best player, he was all-NBA first team four straight years. Won a NBL MVP in 1947 (while Mikan was in the league) and also played for a Royals title team (1946) in that league, and did all this while giving up wha would have been his first three years as a pro to WWII.

He was the first star guard of post WWII pro basketball. He did what Cousy couldn't do and led his team to a title and accomplished many of Cousy's other single season feats and even once had over 20 assists in a game durin an era when 5 a night might lead he league.


Can I use a formula to rank them mathematically, then change as discussion continues? I don't have a formula yet, but I am currently putting statistics in Microsoft Excel for all of the guards you mentioned could possibly be in there earlier.

Sure, but I forgot Isiah and Sid Moncrief...add them.

Also where does Doug West rank on your all-time 25 greatest Timberwolve guards list?

[KGMN]

Sure, but I forgot Isiah and Sid Moncrief...add them.

Also where does Doug West rank on your all-time 25 greatest Timberwolve guards list?

I wish I could say, but I only became a Timberwolves fan after I moved to the USA in 2000. I don't know much about him, but I know that many Timberwolves fans on Canis Hoopus really enjoyed watching him play. I'm guessing that he would be somewhere in the top 5-10 Wolves guards, but I really don't know too much about him.

[D-Wade316]

Top 10's, 25's, 100's is highly subjective. Especially when we group together two highly different positions.

[G.O.A.T]

Top 10's, 25's, 100's is highly subjective. Especially when we group together two highly different positions.

They aren't really that different when you consider that most of the guys in consideration for the top ten played both positions at some point of their career either on offense, defense or both.

The reason I've chose guards and not Point and shooting positions is because of this and because a lot of people have a "prototype" for what each position shoul be and use that as a criteria, I was trying to avoid that and instead wanted to just rank basketball players.

[L.Kizzle]

I rank them thusly:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Walt Frazier
Jerry West
Bob Cousy
Lenny Wilkens
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Manu Ginnobili
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Clyde Drexler
Bill Sharman
Richie Guerin
Sam Jones
Dennis Johnson
Hal Greer
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Tiny Archibald
Earl Monroe
Why

[G.O.A.T]

I rank them thusly:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Walt Frazier
Jerry West
Bob Cousy
Lenny Wilkens
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Manu Ginnobili
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Clyde Drexler
Bill Sharman
Richie Guerin
Sam Jones
Dennis Johnson
Hal Greer
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Tiny Archibald
Earl Monroe

One of these things is not like the other ones...

Anyway, good stuff though, you in?

[D-Wade316]

They aren't really that different when you consider that most of the guys in consideration for the top ten played both positions at some point of their career either on offense, defense or both.

The reason I've chose guards and not Point and shooting positions is because of this and because a lot of people have a "prototype" for what each position shoul be and use that as a criteria, I was trying to avoid that and instead wanted to just rank basketball players.
If that were the case, Big O would trump them all.

[G.O.A.T]

If that were the case, Big O would trump them all.

Use the quote option when you reply to make it more clear who you are talking to. EDIT: (You got it nvm)

And to your point here, no, he wouldn't.

Even if you put the team successes aside, Oscar was not nearly as good a defensive player as three of the other four guys in te top five. It's very much debatable.

[rmt]

Why should Allen be above Miller?

I mean, I can see a case for it, but you essentially have two guys who played a very similair style with similair results, except that Miller's teams were consitently good and frequently contenders and Allen's team were almost never contenders and missed the playoffs more often than they made them. Now the Boston yeas help sure, but Ray was the third or fourth best player on those teams. That's a much different role. Reggie taking the Pacers to the Finals plus two or three more ECF's puts him above Ray for me, but they are very very close IMO.

What about on the defensive end? Is it just me or don't you think Allen's better on that end? I thought he did a pretty good job on Kobe. I'd choose Allen over Miller. Maybe I'm just biased because I hate his commentating.

[D-Wade316]

Use the quote option when you reply to make it more clear who you are talking to. EDIT: (You got it nvm)

And to your point here, no, he wouldn't.

Even if you put the team successes aside, Oscar was not nearly as good a defensive player as three of the other four guys in te top five. It's very much debatable.
I know. My mistake.

He averaged triple-double in his first 5 seasons. (Pace users, don't come here. There are no such things such as inflated stats). He was the first of the big guards. It's hard to know how good defensively he was, when stl and blk weren't even recorded back in his time. We'll just put him as a good defender. Regarding success, I don't put it in consideration. His legacy to the game went beyond the success.

[Boston C's]

Just to be clear, I am not defining any criteria, to each their own. I would hope people would weigh peak, prime, longevity, resume, stats, popular/expert opinion etc. but in the end, it's a bunch of biased lists trying to produce one unbiased one.



Why should Allen be above Miller?

I mean, I can see a case for it, but you essentially have two guys who played a very similair style with similair results, except that Miller's teams were consitently good and frequently contenders and Allen's team were almost never contenders and missed the playoffs more often than they made them. Now the Boston yeas help sure, but Ray was the third or fourth best player on those teams. That's a much different role. Reggie taking the Pacers to the Finals plus two or three more ECF's puts him above Ray for me, but they are very very close IMO.

Allen was just a better basketball player then Miller period... got mad love for reggie but ray is equal to him in shooting while doing more then that... reggie provided scoring but not much else... ray in his prime was a good rebounder and playmaker (played some point for seattle) he has a ring at worst as the 3rd best player but still a ring nonetheless and if you wanna point out teams allen played on a shit sonics team that in the west gave the spurs the biggest scare in 05 and as for philly the bucks got absolutely robbed (wouldnt matter as the lakers would thrash them anyway) if you look at individual accolades all across the board ray trumps reggie in basically every category... reggie is deserving to be on the top 25 but over ray I just dont see a case for it

[Dasher]

What's your reasoning on Maravich, Dumars and Miller...?

Who is better and for what reasons?
Maravich was a bad pro. Miller was a specialist who wasn't as good as Mitch Richmond or Ray Allen, players I left off. Dumars is overrated, and shouldn't be in the HOF. Alvin Robertson and Sidney Moncrief were better players, and I left them off the list.

[Dasher]

Why
Manu has a legacy as a player that few players can match. Manu's combination of individual brilliance, and team success has to be respected. He was a key cog in championship runs, and is one of the most disruptive and effective forces to play the guard.

[Boston C's]

Manu has a legacy as a player that few players can match. Manu's combination of individual brilliance, and team success has to be respected. He was a key cog in championship runs, and is one of the most disruptive and effective forces to play the guard.

I do think you can make a case for Manu in the top 25 list but the one thing that stood out to me is that you have him over wade even if its by one spot I just dont see it... there are a few other things that I disagree with as well but overall its a solid list and I dont feel like writing an extensive response right now lol

[Dasher]

I do think you can make a case for Manu in the top 25 list but the one thing that stood out to me is that you have him over wade even if its by one spot I just dont see it... there are a few other things that I disagree with as well but overall its a solid list and I dont feel like writing an extensive response right now lol
Wade will eventually move ahead of Manu. Manu is probably the most difficult player to slot on the list other than Allen Iverson.

[ThaRegul8r]

Miller was a specialist who wasn't as good as Mitch Richmond or Ray Allen, players I left off.

Travis Best: [I]

[Dasher]

One of these things is not like the other ones...

Anyway, good stuff though, you in?
I'm down.

[Boston C's]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Travis Best: [I]

[Boston C's]

Wade will eventually move ahead of Manu. Manu is probably the most difficult player to slot on the list other than Allen Iverson.

Honestly doing this list period is difficult lmao thats why I choose not to make one because even if I tried I would probably scramble and change so many things around because there are a lot of players that are deserving to be top 25

[Dasher]

I watched Reggie in real time. He wasn't as good as Mitch Richmond, who made the cover of NBA Live. Richmond was a better all-around player, who made 6 All-NBA teams. Reggie benefited from being a better show man than Mitch, and playing some epic games against The Knicks and The Bulls. He was not as good as Mitch.

[G.O.A.T]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Travis Best: [I]

[L.Kizzle]

Manu has a legacy as a player that few players can match. Manu's combination of individual brilliance, and team success has to be respected. He was a key cog in championship runs, and is one of the most disruptive and effective forces to play the guard.
I'm not a Manu hater, but you could make the case about any star player for a championship team. Where is Jo Jo White at on your list or Joe Dumars or DJ?

He just doesn't have the individual accomplishments to make a top 25 list. He only has what 2 All-Star games and 2 All-NBA 3rd teams under his belt in about 10 seasons.

[Dasher]

I'm not a Manu hater, but you could make the case about any star player for a championship team. Where is Jo Jo White at on your list or Joe Dumars or DJ?

He just doesn't have the individual accomplishments to make a top 25 list. He only has what 2 All-Star games and 2 All-NBA 3rd teams under his belt in about 10 seasons.
DJ did make my list. Joe Dumars did not. Manu is a legitimate all-time great.

[G.O.A.T]

I watched Reggie in real time. He wasn't as good as Mitch Richmond, who made the cover of NBA Live.

Well that settles it. NBA Live covers are one of my main criteria. That's why i rate Kareem so low.

I also watched both of them in real time. Mitch Richmond wasn't even close to the player Reggie was. Reggie was constantly in motion, constantly putting pressure on the defense. He was ALWAYS doing something to help his team win. Richmond needed everything to revolve around him and in that scenario he could produce major numbers. But very little success. In fact, in nine seasons where Mitch Richmond was his teams leading scorer, those teams won just one playoff game.

On the contrary in Miller's ten seasons as his teams top scorer (which run almost parallel to Richmond's , the Pacers made nine playoff appearances and from 1994-2000 made five trips to the Eastern Conference Finals and even made the NBA Finals in 2000.

Another important number to note about Miller. From 1992-2002 over ten consecutive playoff appearances Miller raised his playoff scoring average over his regular season average without fail. Richmond's scoring average decreased every time he went to the postseason without exception.

In fact Reggie Miller scored more points in the 2000 playoff season alone than Richmond did in his entire playoff career.

This will be a fun topic.

[iamgine]

I'd be happy to provide my expertise in this project.

[G.O.A.T]

DJ did make my list. Joe Dumars did not. Manu is a legitimate all-time great.

It's fun to say, but he's not. The numbers, the stories, the accolades. None of them support your argument. And as you can see by the lists here, either does the eyeball test for most.


I'd be happy to provide my expertise in this project.

Be happier to have you.

[Dasher]

Reggie played for better teams than Mitch Richmond. Reggie's playoff success, and had a lot to do with him playing with one of the deepest front courts in basketball at the time. The Davis Boys, Rik Smits, and Derrick McKey may not have had star power, but they were one of the best in the game. Reggie was a limited player. He was a poor defender, who couldn't create for others. Reggie was barely a better 3 point shooter than Mitch, and did not come close to him in the other facets of the game.

[L.Kizzle]

DJ did make my list. Joe Dumars did not. Manu is a legitimate all-time great.
Manu may be great, but not top 25 great. Sidney Moncrief didn't make my list, but I'd take him over Manu with no hesitation.

[Boston C's]

Well that settles it. NBA Live covers are one of my main criteria. That's why i rate Kareem so low.

I also watched both of them in real time. Mitch Richmond wasn't even close to the player Reggie was. Reggie was constantly in motion, constantly putting pressure on the defense. He was ALWAYS doing something to help his team win. Richmond needed everything to revolve around him and in that scenario he could produce major numbers. But very little success. In fact, in nine seasons where Mitch Richmond was his teams leading scorer, those teams won just one playoff game.

On the contrary in Miller's ten seasons as his teams top scorer (which run almost parallel to Richmond's , the Pacers made nine playoff appearances and from 1994-2000 made five trips to the Eastern Conference Finals and even made the NBA Finals in 2000.

Another important number to note about Miller. From 1992-2002 over ten consecutive playoff appearances Miller raised his playoff scoring average over his regular season average without fail. Richmond's scoring average decreased every time he went to the postseason without exception.

In fact Reggie Miller scored more points in the 2000 playoff season alone than Richmond did in his entire playoff career.

This will be a fun topic.

Very good argument for reggie but in regards to both ritchmond and allen I believe that reggies teams were vastly superior compared to their own... you could say that reggie was a better leader then the both of them possibly but in terms of basketball skill and abilities those two had more to offer then reggie did... u look at the numbers across the board for both players along with their individual achievements and you can see that they both trump reggie

[L.Kizzle]

Reggie played for better teams than Mitch Richmond. Reggie's playoff success, and had a lot to do with him playing with one of the deepest front courts in basketball at the time. The Davis Boys, Rik Smits, and Derrick McKey may not have had star power, but they were one of the best in the game. Reggie was a limited player. He was a poor defender, who couldn't create for others. Reggie was barely a better 3 point shooter than Mitch, and did not come close to him in the other facets of the game.
Pacers had a good front line, but it's not like they had star players in the pivot like Ewing, Morning or hell even a Charles Oakley, Otis Thorpe or Ho Grant.

I agree (like everyone else) that Mitch had the better skill set, but Miller did more with his limited set.

I mean Chris Webber, way more talented than Dirk Nowitzki but we know how that story turned out.

[G.O.A.T]

Reggie played for better teams than Mitch Richmond. Reggie's playoff success, and had a lot to do with him playing with one of the deepest front courts in basketball at the time. The Davis Boys, Rik Smits, and Derrick McKey may not have had star power, but they were one of the best in the game. Reggie was a limited player. He was a poor defender, who couldn't create for others. Reggie was barely a better 3 point shooter than Mitch, and did not come close to him in the other facets of the game.

The 1994 team featured only one other double-figure scorer in the playoffs and had Haywoode Workman starting at point guard. Nice try, but it doesn't hold up. Richmond had just as many good players around him. He played with Mullin at his peak and Tim Hardaway and never got to a conference final. I understand you have your opinions, but at some point you have to show you are at least listening to the other side.

Another look at the 1994 roster:

Reggie
Smits (16 & 6)
McKey (12-5-4)
2nd year Dale Davis (12-11)
Haywoode Workman (never averaged more than 8 pts or 6 apg)
--------------------
Rookie Antonio Davis
Byron Scott (injured only 17 mpg)
Vern Fleming
Sam Mitchell

The 1994 Sacramento Kings

Richmond
Lionel Simmons (15 & 8 - averaged 18-8 over the past three years)
Wayman Tisdale (17 & 7 - proven 20 per game scorer in the league)
Spud Webb (13 & 7)
Olden Polynice (12 & 12 - traded to Detroit)
-------------------------
2nd year Walt Williams (averaged 17 & 5 as a rookie)
Trevor Wilson
Pete Chilcutt
Mike Peplowski

The Kings have a more talented starting line-up for sure, I like the Pacers team better, but the Kings are not a whole lot worse. They are better at at least three of the top six spots. Four if you count Richmond as I assume you do.

The Pacers went to the Conference Finals. The Kings lost 54 games.

[G.O.A.T]

Very good argument for reggie but in regards to both ritchmond and allen I believe that reggies teams were vastly superior compared to their own... you could say that reggie was a better leader then the both of them possibly but in terms of basketball skill and abilities those two had more to offer then reggie did... u look at the numbers across the board for both players along with their individual achievements and you can see that they both trump reggie

They just weren't though. At least not to the extent that the difference in success reflects. Go back and look. Reggie's #2 was Rick Smits. The Zydrunnas Ilgauskas of his day. (Except Z rebounded better in his heyday) Until Jalen Rose came around and had his best years with the Pacers, Reggie's best perimeter teammates was Chuck Person or Detlef Schrempf, both proved better suited form #3 or #4 roles.

Allen teamed with Big Dog and Sam Cassell in Milwaukee and lost to a team with Iverson/Mutombo and Eric Snow leading the way at their very best and with Rashard Lewis for his best years in Seattle and they had just one good season there. Ray didn't play for great teams, but so much worse than what Miller had as to account for the difference in success. And also, once Ray got to Boston, and had talent around him, he assumed a #3 and then #4 role. Reggie played that role just as well for the 2005 Pacers.

The numbers do suggest that those guys were better than Reggie, but that's why you shouldn't trust numbers. The numbers suggest Wilt Chamberlain was easily the greatest player of all-time, and that Vince Carter was twice the player of Manu Ginobili. As you can see, the numbers lie.

Thanks for the response.

[Dasher]

Pacers had a good front line, but it's not like they had star players in the pivot like Ewing, Morning or hell even a Charles Oakley, Otis Thorpe or Ho Grant.

I agree (like everyone else) that Mitch had the better skill set, but Miller did more with his limited set.

I mean Chris Webber, way more talented than Dirk Nowitzki but we know how that story turned out.
The NBA's corruption robbed Webber at his best chance at a title. The Kings would have brutalized my poor Nets.

Both Davis boys were equal to, if not better than Otis Thorpe, Oak, and Horace Grant.

Mitch never played with a frontcourt as good as Reggie's. The best big men Mitch played with during his prime were Wayman Tisdale and Brian Grant(not at the same time), about time he linked up with Juwan Howard he was 33 and on the decline.

[G.O.A.T]

Both Davis boys were equal to, if not better than Otis Thorpe, Oak, and Horace Grant.

Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good point. You'd need to back this up with something I don't know, because I rank those other three guys amongst the top 50 at their position all-time and the Davis boys miss the cut. I think most would agree. It's not a blow out, but guys like Thorpe, Grant and Oakley were #2 and #3 players on title contenders. The Davis' were role guys #4 at best.

[Dasher]

Walt Williams missed a 3rd of the season.

Olden played less than half of the season, and shot less than 40% in the games he did play.

Mitch, Wayman, Lionel Simmons, Randy Brown, and Spud Webb were the only players to play more than 60 games that year.

Reggie played with better players. That really can't be argued.

[Dasher]

All of them are one time coaches selection All Stars. Dale Davis was one of the fiercest defenders in his era, while being a better athlete than Chuck. He also had a comparable jumper, that he hit a higher percentage of. Antonio Davis was also rugged, a great defender, and could get it done in the post. If you were to rank the players it would be:

Otis
Dale Davis
Charles Oakley
Antonio Davis

[NugzHeat3]

Richmond was voted the most underrated player in the NBA by a poll conducted by USA today that featured coaches, players, GMs and trainers. I have to believe they knew the terrible support Mitch had in Sacramento and how he had to carry the team night in and night out.

I know people can say Mitch could put up big numbers on a losing team but you should also consider the amount of double teams one would see, how much of a load they'd have to carry ect ect if they're stuck on a bottom-dweller like the 90s Kings.

Mitch was a perenniall All-Star and I'm positive he wasn't making it due to popularity which shows he was respected around the league. He made 5 straight All-NBA teams (two 2nd, three 3rd). That's more All-NBA teams and All-Star appearances than Reg.

If you compare their games, Reggie was a better all around shooter but that's about it. Mitch was a better passer, better ball handler, more versatile, definitely a better defender and better rebounder too.

Still, it's hard for me to put Mitch above Reggie since we never got to see Mitch in the playoffs (not really his fault). Reggie usually took his game to a new level come playoff time and always showed a great deal of fire and competitiveness. There's a reason why he's regarded as one of the great clutch players though I personally think it's slightly undeserved and based on selective memory.

[G.O.A.T]

Walt Williams missed a 3rd of the season.

Olden played less than half of the season, and shot less than 40% in the games he did play.

Mitch, Wayman, Lionel Simmons, Randy Brown, and Spud Webb were the only players to play more than 60 games that year.

Reggie played with better players. That really can't be argued.

Just to be clear, I agree. The Pacers were a better team, I said as much in my post. However...

Not conference finals compared to 50+ loss season better. That also can't be argued.

[G.O.A.T]

Richmond was voted the most underrated player in the NBA by a poll conducted by USA today that featured coaches, players, GMs and trainers. I have to believe they knew the terrible support Mitch had in Sacramento and how he had to carry the team night in and night out.

I know people can say Mitch could put up big numbers on a losing team but you should also consider the amount of double teams one would see, how much of a load they'd have to carry ect ect if they're stuck on a bottom-dweller like the 90s Kings.

Mitch was a perenniall All-Star and I'm positive he wasn't making it due to popularity which shows he was respected around the league. He made 5 straight All-NBA teams (two 2nd, three 3rd). That's more All-NBA teams and All-Star appearances than Reg.

If you compare their games, Reggie was a better all around shooter but that's about it. Mitch was a better passer, better ball handler, more versatile, definitely a better defender and better rebounder too.

Still, it's hard for me to put Mitch above Reggie since we never got to see Mitch in the playoffs (not really his fault). Reggie usually took his game to a new level come playoff time and always showed a great deal of fire and competitiveness. There's a reason why he's regarded as one of the great clutch players though I personally think it's slightly undeserved and based on selective memory.

You should join us here, you'd be a very good addition.

Your post does a great job of weighing both sides of the argument. I think it's clear that guys like Richmond, Vince Carter, Ray Allen were more skilled, more versatile players. But Reggie was unique and Reggie was clutch. I've seen the studies that suggest our recollection is a result of selective memory, but you've seen some of the quotes. You can't remember anybody else doing to the Bulls what Jordan always did to them in the Semi-Finals or Finals, you can't remember anybody else scoring 8 points in 9 seconds. Or scoring 25 in the fourth quarter at MSG. Or Torturing one franchise the way Reggie did the Knicks. Or Making not one but two final possession shots to tie a game with first a three pointer and then a dunk. Reggie Miller is more significant because he understood what the truly great understand. How to save it for when you needed it most.

[NugzHeat3]

You should join us here, you'd be a very good addition.
I would love to but I have no idea how to rate guys like Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Hal Greer and such because I really have no idea or knowledge about their games, their impact ect ect.

I can chip in if people are debating someone like Dumars or Ray Allen, Iverson or Nash and such. But I would just feel dishonest if I ranked the older guys without knowing anything about them.

I would definitely follow the thread though.

[Dasher]

Just to be clear, I agree. The Pacers were a better team, I said as much in my post. However...

Not conference finals compared to 50+ loss season better. That also can't be argued.
It can be ignored. The Kings frontline essentially consisted of only Wayman Tisdale. The Kings regularly faced Hakeem, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, David Robinson etc. Outside of Ewing and Shaq, The Pacers did not regularly run into the quality of opposing bigs that The Kings did. The 5th best team in the Eastern Conference were The Pacers, in The West it was The Jazz. The Pacers should have won more games than The Kings, they were the most complete team, played in an easier conference, while having the better front-line out of the two teams.

NBA insiders regularly rated Mitch superior to Reggie, and any other 2 guard not named MJ.

[1987_Lakers]

Maravich was a bad pro. Miller was a specialist who wasn't as good as Mitch Richmond or Ray Allen, players I left off. Dumars is overrated, and shouldn't be in the HOF. Alvin Robertson and Sidney Moncrief were better players, and I left them off the list.

I agree with you on Dumars, he was a very good pro, but not HOF worthy. I see Dumars as the Tony Parker of his era, both played completely different, but they are both All-Star players who managed to win Finals MVP.

If we are talking about prime play I'll take Moncrief over alot of these guards in the list, injuries just caught up to Moncrief.

[G.O.A.T]

NBA insiders regularly rated Mitch superior to Reggie, and any other 2 guard not named MJ.

That's a fair point. I recall that as well. And Mitch got more attention in the all-star and all-NBA department as well.

But again, this is not a draft on potential. This is based on what happened. Reggie Miller was the best player on five teams that made the conference finals or beyond. Richmond won playoff game as his teams best player. Add to the equation one guy got better in the playoffs consistently and one guy got worse without exception. I don't think it's a coincidence. NBA insiders are wrong quite a bit, just look at the draft.

[G.O.A.T]

I agree with you on Dumars, he was a very good pro, but not HOF worthy. I see Dumars as the Tony Parker of his era, both played completely different, but they are both All-Star players who managed to win Finals MVP.

If we are talking about prime play I'll take Moncrief over alot of these guards in the list, injuries just caught up to Moncrief.

Could use you too, despite your anti-Joe D blasphemy.

Whaddya say? You in?


I would love to but I have no idea how to rate guys like Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Hal Greer and such because I really have no idea or knowledge about their games, their impact ect ect.

I can chip in if people are debating someone like Dumars or Ray Allen, Iverson or Nash and such. But I would just feel dishonest if I ranked the older guys without knowing anything about them.

I would definitely follow the thread though.

I hope you'll reconsider for the forwards and centers rounds. I thin you'll find when we move on to the next round (individual match-ups) that there are a lot creative ways to look at players impacts across eras without interjecting a bias one way or the other. In the meantime, please do follow and opine.

[1987_Lakers]

Could use you too, despite your anti-Joe D blasphemy.

Whaddya say? You in?

I knew you weren't going to enjoy that post since you're a Detroit fan, lol. I've been in a couple of projects on realgm which were fun so I guess I'm in.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Why should Allen be above Miller?

I mean, I can see a case for it, but you essentially have two guys who played a very similair style with similair results, except that Miller's teams were consitently good and frequently contenders and Allen's team were almost never contenders and missed the playoffs more often than they made them. Now the Boston yeas help sure, but Ray was the third or fourth best player on those teams. That's a much different role. Reggie taking the Pacers to the Finals plus two or three more ECF's puts him above Ray for me, but they are very very close IMO.



Reggie played for better teams than Mitch Richmond. Reggie's playoff success, and had a lot to do with him playing with one of the deepest front courts in basketball at the time. The Davis Boys, Rik Smits, and Derrick McKey may not have had star power, but they were one of the best in the game. Reggie was a limited player. He was a poor defender, who couldn't create for others. Reggie was barely a better 3 point shooter than Mitch, and did not come close to him in the other facets of the game.
I pretty much feel the same way about the Reggie which is why I have Ray above him. I don't know about Richmond though. Reggie did not accomplish nearly as much as Ray did.

Ray has double the amount of all-star selections that Reggie has had. Ray has made 10 all-star teams in his career while Reggie has only made 5.

Reggie doesn't really have an argument over Ray as a player in their peaks or as a whole in their career. Ray was just flat out better than Reggie at everything. I don't think there is a single thing that Reggie may have been better than Ray at except maybe clutch, but it is not like Ray is some choker like Peja.

Ray also has a championship over him. Sure he was the third best player on that team, but you could easily argue that he should have been the 2008 Finals MVP and he was very key to the Celtics championship run. I don't take away championships from someone that was a key part of the success, because it is not like Ray came off the bench and played limited minutes or anything, he was a starter and one of the stars on the team.

You can't really penalize Ray for not being as good as the #1 guy as Reggie was because if you compare their teammates Reggie's teammates win by a landslide. Ray took his team to the ECF in 2001 in the Bucks and you could argue that there was some questionable officiating in that Game 7 ECF. (I am not going to get into that though).

Ray was the better player and has accomplished more, it's really just that simple.

[G.O.A.T]

I knew you weren't going to enjoy that post since you're a Detroit fan, lol. I've been in a couple of projects on realgm which were fun so I guess I'm in.

Really glad your in. Your experience will help what I think is a mostly new to this sort of thing contingent thus far.

Here is my perspective on the Pistons. Bill Laimbeer is the Mother Theresa of 1980's centers and did not touch Kareem on that play in the 1988 Finals. Rick Mahorn is a sweetheart who the NBA stole a 2nd ring from because we needed a team in Minnesota. Isiah, Dumars and Vinnie is the best back court three deep of all-time. Chuck Daly is the best coach not named Red or Phil ever. Rodman is the best defensive player/rebounder of the decade and peaked as a Piston in that regard. John Salley is awesome on that best something sports whatever. Well you get my point.

All that aside. I understand where you are coming from though. Dumars was sort of non-spectacular, but he's exactly the kind of guy you always want on your team. Smart, unselfish, can't be left open, plays hard on defense and can shut someone down, plays multiple positions, can score but doesn't need to to have a good game. A perfect teammate. His career and the role he played on one of the NBA's all-time greatest teams (the '89 Pistons) separates him from the JoJo White's, Chauncey Billups, Arnie Risens, Tony Parker's and Bob Dandridge's of the world who had great series for teams that were fortunate to get to the Finals and/or had an over matched finals opponent. Dumars and the Pistons were an exclamation point on a four year rise from fringe playoff team to contender to NBA Champion. The next year they cemented their place in history with Dumars as their sole All-NBA appointee.

[G.O.A.T]

I pretty much feel the same way about the Reggie which is why I have Ray above him. I don't know about Richmond though. Reggie did not accomplish nearly as much as Ray did.

Ray has double the amount of all-star selections that Reggie has had. Ray has made 10 all-star teams in his career while Reggie has only made 5.

Reggie doesn't really have an argument over Ray as a player in their peaks or as a whole in their career. Ray was just flat out better than Reggie at everything. I don't think there is a single thing that Reggie may have been better than Ray at except maybe clutch, but it is not like Ray is some choker like Peja.

Ray also has a championship over him. Sure he was the third best player on that team, but you could easily argue that he should have been the 2008 Finals MVP and he was very key to the Celtics championship run. I don't take away championships from someone that was a key part of the success, because it is not like Ray came off the bench and played limited minutes or anything, he was a starter and one of the stars on the team.

You can't really penalize Ray for not being as good as the #1 guy as Reggie was because if you compare their teammates Reggie's teammates win by a landslide. Ray took his team to the ECF in 2001 in the Bucks and you could argue that there was some questionable officiating in that Game 7 ECF. (I am not going to get into that though).

Ray was the better player and has accomplished more, it's really just that simple.

This whole teammates argument is so weak.

The divide is not nearly as great as some of you want to make it out to be.

Show me another team whose second best player was Rick Smits or the same level that went to four conference finals and didn't have a unique star who could win you close games on his own and isn't ranked in your top 75.

Reggie's success as a best player and leader of a team that went to five ECF's or beyond is all the argument he needs. A player doing that is far more rare than a player achieving the statistical heights Allen or Richmond did. It's totally hypocritical to say that Miller had better teammates and then say that Allen and Richmond were better because they had better stats. (If that's someone's argument or how they present it) Obviously if your teammates are so much better that your team is a title contender instead of a lottery team, your stats are gonna go way down. Good players are gonna take up some of those numbers, right?

That's all I am saying.

[ThaSwagg3r]

This whole teammates argument is so weak.

The divide is not nearly as great as some of you want to make it out to be.

Show me another team whose second best player was Rick Smits or the same level that went to four conference finals and didn't have a unique star who could win you close games on his own and isn't ranked in your top 75.

Reggie's success as a best player and leader of a team that went to five ECF's or beyond is all the argument he needs. A player doing that is far more rare than a player achieving the statistical heights Allen or Richmond did. It's totally hypocritical to say that Miller had better teammates and then say that Allen and Richmond were better because they had better stats. (If that's someone's argument or how they present it) Obviously if your teammates are so much better that your team is a title contender instead of a lottery team, your stats are gonna go way down. Good players are gonna take up some of those numbers, right?

That's all I am saying.
Reggie had deeper teams. Sure maybe he didn't play with another star or anything like that but they were very good borderline all-stars. Rik Smits was a good player himself. Smits made one all-star team which is pretty good considering how he played in an era where the Center position was actually deep and productive.

Reggie got to play with very good players in Indiana, Detlef Schrempf, Rik Smits, Dale Davis, Jalen Rose, Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Jermaine O'Neal, etc.

Ray's teammates were literally hot garbage after himself and another player or two. In the Bucks? It was just him, Robinson, and Cassell. In the Sonics? It was just him and Rashard and the rest were trash.

Gotta look at the context my friend....

[NugzHeat3]

Really glad your in. Your experience will help what I think is a mostly new to this sort of thing contingent thus far.

Here is my perspective on the Pistons. Bill Laimbeer is the Mother Theresa of 1980's centers and did not touch Kareem on that play in the 1988 Finals.]/b] Rick Mahorn is a sweetheart who the NBA stole a 2nd ring from because we needed a team in Minnesota. Isiah, Dumars and Vinnie is the best back court three deep of all-time. Chuck Daly is the best coach not named Red or Phil ever. [b]Rodman is the best defensive player/rebounder of the decade and peaked as a Piston in that regard. John Salley is awesome on that best something sports whatever. Well you get my point.

All that aside. I understand where you are coming from though. Dumars was sort of non-spectacular, but he's exactly the kind of guy you always want on your team. Smart, unselfish, can't be left open, plays hard on defense and can shut someone down, plays multiple positions, can score but doesn't need to to have a good game. A perfect teammate. His career and the role he played on one of the NBA's all-time greatest teams (the '89 Pistons) separates him from the JoJo White's, Chauncey Billups, Arnie Risens, Tony Parker's and Bob Dandridge's of the world who had great series for teams that were fortunate to get to the Finals and/or had an over matched finals opponent. Dumars and the Pistons were an exclamation point on a four year rise from fringe playoff team to contender to NBA Champion. The next year they cemented their place in history with Dumars as their sole All-NBA appointee.
Definitely agree about the call. Kareem was gifted that based on his reputation and legend. That's a three-peat for Detroit in my book.

I disagree about Rodman being the best defensive player of the decade. Rebounding is a lot more arguable and I always go back and forth between him and Barkley.

Rodman won DPoYs based on his man defense and that was deadly when he was locked in but Dennis never had the impact that a traditional defensive anchor would. I think he was the best man defender in the league but due to being a perimeter player (SF in Detroit), he could never match the impact a big man could.

I would never put him in the same class as Robinson/Hakeem/Mutombo. I believe those DPoYs came at a time where the voters considered individual defense just as important as help and team defense. For the same reason, I think Michael Jordan should have never won DPoY over Mark Eaton or Akeem.

Even Bill Russell, the consensus defensive GOAT, said stopping a team is a lot more important than stopping an individual. I have read Russell would never get into the individual battles with Wilt and would always focus on getting whatever it took for the team to win.

I agree about Rodman peaking as a Piston though. In his time with Chicago, the coaches picked him as either the most overrated rebounder or defender because he would neglect man defense and roam around in search for grabbing rebounds (can't remember what it was).

[WillC]

G.O.A.T, I'm not sure when you want us to post our top 25 lists, but I'll do it now - I can always post it again elsewhere at a later date if need be.

01 - Michael Jordan
02 - Magic Johnson
03 - Oscar Robertson
04 - Kobe Bryant
05 - Jerry West
06 - Isiah Thomas
07 - Bob Cousy
08 - John Stockton
09 - Walt Frazier
10 - Dwyane Wade
11 - Jason Kidd
12 - Allen Iverson
13 - George Gervin
14 - Gary Payton
15 - Clyde Drexler
16 - Steve Nash
17 - Nate Archibald
18 - Earl Monroe
19 - Sam Jones
20 - Pete Maravich
21 - Dennis Johnson
22 - Hal Greer
23 - Reggie Miller
24 - Lenny Wilkens
25 - Bill Sharman

[Stuckey]

kobe is a pg?? lol ur worthless

[WillC]

kobe is a pg?? lol ur worthless

"Ranking the top 25 GUARDS of all-time."

Not point guards.

Learn to read. Thanks.

[Stuckey]

"Ranking the top 25 GUARDS of all-time."

Not point guards.

Learn to read. Thanks.

lawwwd i'm a roll this week :facepalm

[WillC]

Apology accepted.

[Toizumi]

I would like to join in.

[necya]

Jesus you could have start with the centers ! guards are a touhg task ! :D

anyway, some cases need to be defended so i'm in.

[Jacks3]

G.O.A.T, I'm not sure when you want us to post our top 25 lists, but I'll do it now - I can always post it again elsewhere at a later date if need be.

01 - Michael Jordan
02 - Magic Johnson
03 - Oscar Robertson
04 - Kobe Bryant
05 - Jerry West
06 - Isiah Thomas
07 - Bob Cousy
08 - John Stockton
09 - Walt Frazier
10 - Dwyane Wade
11 - Jason Kidd
12 - Allen Iverson
13 - George Gervin
14 - Gary Payton
15 - Clyde Drexler
16 - Steve Nash
17 - Nate Archibald
18 - Earl Monroe
19 - Sam Jones
20 - Pete Maravich
21 - Dennis Johnson
22 - Hal Greer
23 - Reggie Miller
24 - Lenny Wilkens
25 - Bill Sharman
Why Oscar over Bryant?

[RobertdeMeijer]

For your convenience, here are the top guards according to Bill Simmon's Pyramind Hall of Fame (taken from the second edition of his Book of Basketball, published about a year ago)

1. Michael Jordan #1
2. Magic Johnson #4
3. Kobe Bryant # 8
4. Jerry West # 9
5. Oscar Robertson #10
6. Bob Cousy #21
7. Isiah Thomas #23
8. John Stockton # 25
9. Dwyane Wade # 28
10. Walt Frazier #32
11. Sam Jones # 33
12. George Gervin # 34
13. Steve Nash # 36
14. Allan Iverson #37
15. Gary Payton #41
16. Jason Kidd #43
17. Clyde Drexler #44
18. Hal Greer #48
19. Bill Sharman #53
20. Dennis Johnson #54
21. Nate Archibald #60
22. Ray Allen #62
23. Reggie Miller #63
24. Earl Monroe #67
25. Pete Maravich #68
__________________
26. David Thompson #70
27. Lenny Wilkins #71
28. Sidney Moncrief #73
29. Joe Dumars #74
30. Tracy McGrady #77
31. Paul Wetphal #79
32. Dave Bing #81
33. Gail Goodrich #87
34. Vince Carter #89
35. Chris Paul #90
36. Kevin Johnson #93
37. JoJo White #95

[WillC]

Why Oscar over Bryant?

He was less selfish than Kobe, a better team player, had the same amount of All-League 1st Team awards, arguably the best all-around player in history. Kobe has more rings. It's an extremely close call. Honestly, it's 50/50 in my opinion.

[WillC]

For your convenience, here are the top guards according to Bill Simmon's Pyramind Hall of Fame (taken from the second edition of his Book of Basketball, published about a year ago)

1. Michael Jordan #1
2. Magic Johnson #4
3. Kobe Bryant # 8
4. Jerry West # 9
5. Oscar Robertson #10
6. Bob Cousy #21
7. Isiah Thomas #23
8. John Stockton # 25
9. Dwyane Wade # 28
10. Walt Frazier #32
11. Sam Jones # 33
12. George Gervin # 34
13. Steve Nash # 36
14. Allan Iverson #37
15. Gary Payton #41
16. Jason Kidd #43
17. Clyde Drexler #44
18. Hal Greer #48
19. Bill Sharman #53
20. Dennis Johnson #54
21. Nate Archibald #60
22. Ray Allen #62
23. Reggie Miller #63
24. Earl Monroe #67
25. Pete Maravich #68
__________________
26. David Thompson #70
27. Lenny Wilkins #71
28. Sidney Moncrief #73
29. Joe Dumars #74
30. Tracy McGrady #77
31. Paul Wetphal #79
32. Dave Bing #81
33. Gail Goodrich #87
34. Vince Carter #89
35. Chris Paul #90
36. Kevin Johnson #93
37. JoJo White #95

If you swap Lenny Wilkens for Ray Allen, Simmons and I have exactly the same players... just in an ever-so-slightly different order.

[nycelt84]

I'd be interested in this project as well.

[Clippersfan86]

I like Simmons list besides Iceman ranking so high. 12th when he didn't win crap in his career? He was basically what Durant is now but worse statistically. Don't get me wrong I love the game of Gervin but 12th best guard... above Drexler and more all around players who won a lot more? Hell no.

Also noticed an underrated player on everyone including Simmons' list which is Gary Payton. I'd take prime Gary Payton over any PG in NBA history besides Magic probably. It's sad his elite, league best defense and basketball IQ will never get the same praise of someone like Stockton who did the more traditional PG things. Let's not forget Payton locked up prime Jordan, something very few if any others could say. George Karl to this day still says he regrets not keeping Payton on Jordan the entire finals because he truly feels they would of won the championship.

Payton>Stockton.


Stockton had Malone who was a lot better than Kemp. Payton not only has the more impressive career resume in my opinion... but he has an amazing 9x defensive first teams tied with freaking Michael Jordan. He won defensive player of the year once and won a ring as a 6th man in Miami (stockton finished with 0 of course thanks to Jordan's Bulls). This doesn't even factor in that Payton had 7 20 ppg scoring seasons which were more than Stockton.

So basically Payton won more, scored more and played ELITE defense...... anyone want to explain how he's not higher up the list and how Stockton and these other guys rank above The Glove?





1 NBA Championship
1 Defensive Player of the Year
9X All-NBA Team (Two 1st, five 2nd, two 3rd)
9X All-Defensive First Team (Record Tied With Michael Jordan).
7 Seasons Averaging 20 PPG Or More
9X NBA All-Star


VS


10

[G.O.A.T]

I would like to join in.


Jesus you could have start with the centers ! guards are a touhg task ! :D

anyway, some cases need to be defended so i'm in.


I'd be interested in this project as well.

Be GREAT to have all three of you.

[G.O.A.T]

Okay so we almost got a full roster here. 17 on board, I'll add up to 4 more. Three others have been invited and not yet responded or committed. Below I've posted the roster and rather or not each person has posted their top 25 list.

After today, we're officially starting the project. The top 25 debate will go Monday to Sunday, at that point your list should be final and I will tally the points and next Monday we'll start the individual match-up voting.

Please let me know if you or your list have not been included on the roster below...ADD YOUR LIST AS SOON AS YOU ARE READY


The Roster so Far

L.Kizzle (posted on pg 3)
ThaSwagg3r (posted on pg 3)
Rose (posted on pg 10)
Will3 (posted on pg 8)
RRR3
Odinn (posted on pg 3)
G.O.A.T (posted on pg 5)
Wukillabeez78
KGMN
Dasher (posted on pg 5)
iamgine
1987 Lakers
nycelt84
neyca
Toizumi
Rowe
wally world (posted on pg 10)
------------

Invited awaiting reply

Shaqattack3234
The Regul8r
NugzHeat3


Here is a list of sixty-four guards I believe we should consider:

Allen, Ray
Archibald, Nate
Billups, Chauncey
Bing, Dave
Bryant, Kobe
Carter, Vince
Cassell, Sam
Cheeks, Maurice
Cousy, Bob
Davies, Bob
Davis, Walter
Drexler, Clyde
Dumars, Joe
Frazier, Walt
Gervin, George
Ginobili, Manu
Gola, Tom
Goodrich, Gail
Greer, Hal
Guerin, Richie
Hardaway, Anfernee
Hardaway, Tim
Iverson, Allen
Johnson, Dennis
Johnson, Kevin
Johnson, Magic
Jones, Sam
Jordan, Michael
Kidd, Jason
Maravich, Pete
Martin, Slater
McGrady, Tracy
McGuire, Dick
Miller, Reggie
Moncrief, Sidney
Monroe, Earl
Nash, Steve
Nixon, Norm
Parker, Tony
Paul, Chris
Payton, Gary
Price, Mark
Richmond, Mitch
Robertson, Alvin
Robertson, Oscar
Rodgers, Guy
Rose, Derrick
Seymour, Paul
Sharman, Bill
Sloan, Jerry
Sprewell, Latrell
Stockton, John
Thomas, Isiah
Thompson, David
Van Lier, Norm
Wade, Dwyane
Wanzer, Bobby
West, Jerry
Westphal, Paul
White, JoJo
Wilkens, Lenny
Williams, Deron
Williams, Gus
Zaslofsky, Max

[Rowe]

I'm interested in this. Glad to see any project that gets us working together talking basketball.

[wally_world]

Am i qualified enough to participate? :)

[G.O.A.T]

The players I am seeing the most variance in and I think will cause the most heated debates is the group below, the edge of the top 10-15

Nash
Iverson
Payton
Stockton
Gervin
Drexler
Kidd

It seems like this group really divides people and I can see why. Every one of these guys has something the others don't and lacks something in their game/resume that kept them from being in the elite group above them.


Am i qualified enough to participate? :)

Good to have you!

[wally_world]

I'll rank the guards by tiers to start off, and my actual list/ranking will be slowly formed day by day.

Tier One (The guaranteed top 10s)
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Isiah Thomas
Oscar Robertson

Tier Two (Candidates for top 10)
John Stockton
Bob Cousy
Steve Nash
George Gervin
Dwyane Wade
Allen Iverson
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Walt Frazier

Tier Three (Rest of the top 25)
Clyde Drexler
Bill Sharman
Sam Jones
Hal Greer
Tiny Archibald
Earl Monroe
Ray Allen
Dennis Johnson
Pete Maravich
Mitch Richmond

Tier Four (Strong considerations)
Reggie Miller
Lenny Wilkins
Joe Dumars
Tracy McGrady
Chris Paul

anyone have Norm Van Lier on their list? Just curious.

[Rose]

My list will feature less guys from the 60/70s than your lists, because I don't know much about them aside from the BoB. So whenever you guys debate them aside from Clyde, Oscar, West, and Sam Jones I'll stick out of the debate pretty much, so that way the "bias"? towards guys on my list stays on my list in not in the final results. I think that's fair enough. While I'm including people like Pearl for instance, I'm doing it more so because of the BoB, and basic stats/accomplishments as well.

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Oscar
4. Kobe(although I think you can definitely say Kobe over Oscar)
5. West
6. Zeke
7. Cousy
8. Stockton
9. Frazier
10. Kidd
11. Nash
12. Wade(his injury time missed and not consistent defense lowers him)
13. Drexler
14. Glove
15. AI
16. Sam Jones
17. Ice Man
18. Hal Greer
19. Kevin Johnson
20. Ray Allen
21. Joe Dumars
22. Dennis Johnson
23. T-mac
24. Pistol
25. CP3/Reggie?

Flipped Nash, Glove and Drexler around


Edit 2: even though this skews the actual vote tallying around I'm changing it anyways because I can. Edited my **** up at 19, replacing Dennis with Kevin Johnson, then bumped T-mac, Pistol, and Reggie down one.

[RRR3]

My list will feature less guys from the 60/70s than your lists, because I don't know much about them aside from the BoB. So whenever you guys debate them aside from Clyde, Oscar, West, and Sam Jones I'll stick out of the debate pretty much, so that way the "bias"? towards guys on my list stays on my list in not in the final results. I think that's fair enough. While I'm including people like Pearl for instance, I'm doing it more so because of the BoB, and basic stats/accomplishments as well.

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Oscar
4. Kobe(although I think you can definitely say Kobe over Oscar)
5. West
6. Zeke
7. Cousy
8. Stockton
9. Frazier
10. Kidd
11. Drexler
12. Wade(his injury time missed and not consistent defense lowers him)
13. Glove
14. Nash
15. AI
16. Sam Jones
17. Ice Man
18. Hal Greer
19. Dennis Johnson
20. Ray Allen
21. Joe Dumars
22. T-mac
23. Pistol
24. Reggie Miller
25. CP3


Nice list. You do realize that guys like Kobe and Kidd aren't consistent with defense either though.

[Rose]

Nice list. You do realize that guys like Kobe and Kidd aren't consistent with defense either though.
True. In particular Kobe.:lol

[RRR3]

True. In particular Kobe.:lol
Haha. That's because he's realized over the years that he doesn't have to even try to play defense-he'll still get first team all-nba defense!:banana: :lol :roll:

[ThaSwagg3r]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]I like Simmons list besides Iceman ranking so high. 12th when he didn't win crap in his career? He was basically what Durant is now but worse statistically. Don't get me wrong I love the game of Gervin but 12th best guard... above Drexler and more all around players who won a lot more? Hell no.

Also noticed an underrated player on everyone including Simmons' list which is Gary Payton. I'd take prime Gary Payton over any PG in NBA history besides Magic probably. It's sad his elite, league best defense and basketball IQ will never get the same praise of someone like Stockton who did the more traditional PG things. Let's not forget Payton locked up prime Jordan, something very few if any others could say. George Karl to this day still says he regrets not keeping Payton on Jordan the entire finals because he truly feels they would of won the championship.

Payton>Stockton.


Stockton had Malone who was a lot better than Kemp. Payton not only has the more impressive career resume in my opinion... but he has an amazing 9x defensive first teams tied with freaking Michael Jordan. He won defensive player of the year once and won a ring as a 6th man in Miami (stockton finished with 0 of course thanks to Jordan's Bulls). This doesn't even factor in that Payton had 7 20 ppg scoring seasons which were more than Stockton.

So basically Payton won more, scored more and played ELITE defense...... anyone want to explain how he's not higher up the list and how Stockton and these other guys rank above The Glove?





1 NBA Championship
1 Defensive Player of the Year
9X All-NBA Team (Two 1st, five 2nd, two 3rd)
9X All-Defensive First Team (Record Tied With Michael Jordan).
7 Seasons Averaging 20 PPG Or More
9X NBA All-Star


VS


10

[RobertdeMeijer]

I just did more research with stats and stuff and Payton should definitely be ahead of Stockton.

When I look at the statistics, John Stockton seems to fare better to me.

According to Wages of Wins, John Stockton had the 11th prime since 1974, based on Wins Produced. Payton it not even in the top 25
http://wagesofwins.net/2011/08/04/the-top-25-nba-players-in-their-prime/

When we compare Basketball Reference's Win Shares, we also see Stockton having a better prime.
Stockton's best six seasons are between 15.6 and 13.6
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html
Payton's best six seasons are between 13.9 and 11.5
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoga01.html

If you look at offensive and defensive ratings, Stocktong has a whopping +17 difference for his career. Payton has an impressive +5.

Looking at playoffs, we see that Stockton has had seven seasons with at least 1.5 Win Shares in the playoffs, one of them above 3.0. Payton has three seasons of at least 1.5 win shares and one above 3.0.

Besides the overall quality that Stockton has shown stat-wise, he's THE beast when it comes to quantity.

[hayden695]

When I look at the statistics, John Stockton seems to fare better to me.

According to Wages of Wins, John Stockton had the 11th prime since 1974, based on Wins Produced. Payton it not even in the top 25
http://wagesofwins.net/2011/08/04/the-top-25-nba-players-in-their-prime/

When we compare Basketball Reference's Win Shares, we also see Stockton having a better prime.
Stockton's best six seasons are between 15.6 and 13.6
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html
Payton's best six seasons are between 13.9 and 11.5
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoga01.html

If you look at offensive and defensive ratings, Stocktong has a whopping +17 difference for his career. Payton has an impressive +5.

Looking at playoffs, we see that Stockton has had seven seasons with at least 1.5 Win Shares in the playoffs, one of them above 3.0. Payton has three seasons of at least 1.5 win shares and one above 3.0.

Besides the overall quality that Stockton has shown stat-wise, he's THE beast when it comes to quantity.
:facepalm

Good thread GOAT, I will not participate since I am not as knowledgable on the older players, and would only be going off Simmons book mostly and what I have read. Would feel dirty shoving my uninformed opinion.

Definitely will be observing though.

[G.O.A.T]

:applause: I think you just convinced me to put Payton above Stockton. I really didn't do any research on this argument when I made my list, but I didn't realize their accomplishments were that similar. I just did more research with stats and stuff and Payton should definitely be ahead of Stockton. I guess I tend to overrate Stockton because he was the all-time assists leader. I always thought Payton was the better player in their peak, but I didn't know they accomplished similar amount of features.

10. Payton
12. Stockton
13. Kidd


I'd argue that you now have the best of all three last.

Here's a comparison of their careers similar to what Clippersfan posted.

Prime/Longevity
Payton - 17 seasons, 15 as a starter, 10 prime years
Stockton - 19 seasons, 16 as a starter, 10 prime years
Kidd - 17 seasons and counting, 17 as a starter, 13 prime years

All-NBA, All-Defensive and All-Star Selections, Awards
Payton - 9x all-NBA (2x 1st team), 9x all-Defensive (9x 1st team), 9x All-Star, 1996 Defensive Player of the Year
Stockton - 11x all-NBA (2x 1st team), 5x all-Defensive 2nd team, 10x All-Star 1993 ASG co-MVP
Kidd - 6x all-NBA (5x 1st team), 9x all-Defensive (4x 1st team), 10x All-Star, 1995 co-Rookie of the Year

MVP Recognition
Payton - 3rd in 1998, 8 top ten finishes
Stockton - 7th in 1999, 5 top ten finishes
Kidd - 2nd in 2002, 2 top fives, 6 top ten finishes

Team Success
Payton - Reached Finals as 1A Best player in 1996, Won 2006 NBA title as a reserve (24 mpg). Played in three NBA Finals and four conference finals. Had an 8-11 record in playoff series during his extended prime*
Stockton - Reached Finals as 2nd best player in 1997 & 1998. Played in two NBA Finals and five conference finals. Had a 16-15 record in playoff series during his extended prime.
Kidd - Reached Finals as best player in 2002 and 2003, Won title as 3rd best player in 2011 (35 mpg). Played in three NBA Finals and three conference finals. Had a 14-11 record in playoff series during his extended prime.

*Extended Prime = Years played as a starter and top three contributor

Statistical Titles & All-time Rankings
Payton - 1x SPG - 4th all-time in steals, 8th in assists, 8th in games played, 7th in minutes played, 26th in points
Stockton - 9x APG, 2x SPG - All-time Assists Leader, All-Time Steals Leader, 3rd in games played, 5th in minutes played
Kidd - 5x APG - 2nd all-time in assists, 3rd all-time in steals, 3rd in three-pointers made, 8th in minutes played

I think Jason Kidd is the best of those three.

[L.Kizzle]

I edited my players.

I switched 13 and 14 around (Iverson in front of Wade), and 20-25 is totally different.

20. Monroe (was 22)
21. Miller (was 23)
22. McGrady (was 20)
23. Ray Allen (was 21)
24. Dave Bing (was 25)
25. Pistol (was 24)

I'm still torn towards that last 5. They might change again with some more thinking.

[Boston C's]

They just weren't though. At least not to the extent that the difference in success reflects. Go back and look. Reggie's #2 was Rick Smits. The Zydrunnas Ilgauskas of his day. (Except Z rebounded better in his heyday) Until Jalen Rose came around and had his best years with the Pacers, Reggie's best perimeter teammates was Chuck Person or Detlef Schrempf, both proved better suited form #3 or #4 roles.

Allen teamed with Big Dog and Sam Cassell in Milwaukee and lost to a team with Iverson/Mutombo and Eric Snow leading the way at their very best and with Rashard Lewis for his best years in Seattle and they had just one good season there. Ray didn't play for great teams, but so much worse than what Miller had as to account for the difference in success. And also, once Ray got to Boston, and had talent around him, he assumed a #3 and then #4 role. Reggie played that role just as well for the 2005 Pacers.

The numbers do suggest that those guys were better than Reggie, but that's why you shouldn't trust numbers. The numbers suggest Wilt Chamberlain was easily the greatest player of all-time, and that Vince Carter was twice the player of Manu Ginobili. As you can see, the numbers lie.

Thanks for the response.

You cant say the numbers lie completely though especially when its so one sided... across the board ray had better accolades then reggie All NBA second teamer reggie never was twice as many all star appearances points boards assists etc... ray was everything reggie was but better... I think some of reggies intangibles is the reason why you rate him so high and rightfully so but just not above allen... rashard was a no show in the 05 playoffs ray was by himself you cant really fault him for having a crap sonics team for his whole tenure... reggie played with more superior players then ray... smits was vastly underrated plus playing with guys like mark jackson chris mullin etc it goes on (chris mullin wasnt in his prime but still solid) ray had rashard in seattle who was inconsistent and then nothing else... that 05 sonics roster was absolute crap and as a fan i still cant believe they made the playoffs let alone nearly beat the spurs in a series... numbers can be overrated but when you have someone beat in pretty much every statistical category and individual accolade its pretty hard to make an argument for the other player... again i respect reggie and you can make a case for top 25 guard of all time but over ray allen on the list i just dont see it

[1987_Lakers]

Alright, here is my list...

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Jerry West
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Bob Cousy
8. Dwyane Wade
9. Walt Frazier
10. Jason Kidd
11. Clyde Drexler
12. Steve Nash
13. Gary Payton
14. Allen Iverson
15. John Stockton (I always thought Stockton was overrated)
16. George Gervin
17. Sam Jones
18. Ray Allen
19. Dennis Johnson
20. Nate Archibald
21. Reggie Miller
22. Hal Greer
23. Tracy McGrady
24. Joe Dumars
25. Sidney Moncrief

[ShaqAttack3234]

Edited my list a bit.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Jerry West
5.Oscar Robertson
6.Dwyane Wade
7.Steve Nash
8.Clyde Drexler
9.Isiah Thomas
10.Jason Kidd
11.Gary Payton
12.Walt Frazier
13.Allen Iverson
14.John Stockton
15.Bob Cousy
16.Kevin Johnson
17.Tracy McGrady
18.Chris Paul
19.George Gervin
20.Hal Greer
21.Sam Jones
22.Tiny Archibald
23.Tim Hardaway
24.Ray Allen
25.Reggie Miller

I'll explain all of my changes.

Moved Oscar over Wade because Wade's career just seems a bit incomplete. While I do think that Wade will ultimately be remembered for his championship in 2006 and his performance during those playoffs as well as his amazing 2009 season, his 8 year career still revolves a little too much around those 2 seasons. He had a solid rookie season, though not one that ultimately factors into his ranking much. He had a great second season, and was playing like arguably the best player in the playoffs, but he got injured with a 3-2 lead in the ECF. He was playing as well as basically anyone in the NBA in his 4th season, but couldn't really contribute much after the all-star break due to injuries. Wasn't himself in 2008 due to the injuries from the previous season and that season doesn't factor into his rankings. He was a top 2-3 player and arguably the best guard in 2010(I have Kobe over him that year for best guard, but it's debatable). And you could rank him anywhere from the best player to 4th best last year, and he was the best guard, imo.

Another great season or 2, and he's a top 5 guard. If he plays really well and wins another title, then that's enough.

Deron Williams was dropped as well. He's a great player, but he's been in the league 6 seasons, his rookie year was insignificant and he's had some injuries as well.

Same with Tim Hardaway, he was a very good player, but not all that significant historically, so he ends up at 23, just in front of Allen and Miller.

Put Tiny Archibald on the list as well. I do remember watching a Celtics game not long ago from '81-'82 where Bill Russell stated that Tiny didn't like how he played in his 34/11 season, but the numbers are amazing, he was considered one of the best players for a while, and he made the all-nba second team the year he won a title with Boston.

Moved Hal Greer over Sam Jones as well. Seemed that he was a better all around player, and he made a lot more all-nba teams. Plus, looking into those '67 and '68 Sixer seasons, what he did really impressed me.

Based on just peak(1-2 years), both Paul and McGrady would be higher, but because Paul had a major disappointment in the playoffs in 1 of those years, got injured after that and missed 37 games, and was very good, but not at that level last year, his longevity is simply nowhere near most guys on the list. McGrady had one unbelievable peak year that stands head and shoulders above his others(2003), but in general, from 2002-2005, he was right near Kobe's level(except for 2004), so his prime was really impressive, and I don't hold the first round thing against him too much because it was wasted on teams with no chance, I mean look at KG who ranks high historically, when he had teams that were in similar situations to McGrady's, he didn't make it past the first round either.

Maybe I'm overrating Steve Nash, but consider this.

Despite his prime starting late, it's not really short.

2005- Nash signs with a team that had gone 29-53 the previous season and had been the 9th worst offensive team. In 2005, they went 62-20 and were easily the best offensive team in the league. Not only that, but they were 2-5 without Nash. And with Nash on the court, they scored 121.7 points per 100 possessions, but with him off the court, they scored just 104.1 points per 100 possessions. Granted, Amare Stoudemire had missed 29 games the previous season, and was bound to improve at his age, and there were a few other additions, but the big difference was Nash. He only averaged 15.5 ppg, but also averaged 11.5 apg and shot 50% from the field with a TS% of 61%. He increased his scoring to 24 ppg in the playoffs while maintaining his efficiency and still averaging over 11 apg. This included a series vs Dallas where he averaged over 30 ppg and 12 apg.

2006- Amare Stoudemire misses the season, Nash stepped up his scoring to 18.8 ppg, while his efficiency improved(led the league in TS% and FT% while shooting 51% from the field), still led the league in assists and Phoenix still made it to the conference finals. Despite Amare and his 26 ppg missing, the Suns still had the second best offense in the league.

2007- Led Phoenix to 61 wins and had his finest statistical season. He averaged 18.6 ppg, a career high 11.6 apg to lead the league, shot a career best 53.2% from the field and led the league in TS% and eFG% with mindblowing percentages of better than 65% and 61%, respectively. Phoenix was just 2-5 without him as well. They were the best offensive team in the league once again.

2008- Was having another similar season, but the Shaq trade slowed everything down, they had to adjust midseason and despite finishing strong after the initial adjustment period, they had the misfortune of facing the defending champion Spurs in the first round due to the strength of the West. Despite that, they finished with 55 wins and had the second best offensive team in the league.

2009- Not his best season, but still more than solid at around 16/10 on his usual great efficiency. Phoenix still finished 46-36 and had the second best offense in the league, despite the coaching mess with terry Porter making Shaq the first option in the first half and trying to make them more of a half court team. When they finally start looking to run more with Porter fired, Amare almost instantly goes out for the season with the eye injury.

2010- Back to the league's best offensive team and a 3rd conference finals where they gave the Lakers a good challenge. They overachieved and Nash had a season not that much different than his MVP seasons. Nash led the league in assists for the 4th time in his career.

2011- Only finished 40-42, but Amare Stoudemire left and Nash was left with a 38 year old Grant Hill as his second best player. They were still the second best offensive team in the league, and they were 39-36 with Nash in the lineup. They also scored 114.9 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor, but just 103.1 when he was off the floor. He led the league in assists again despite playing with nagging injuries at 37 years old.

Few would question that Nash is an all-time great passer and shooter, but he also has the ability to take over games as a scorer if needed, but doesn't look to do so most of the times, and I've seen him make numerous clutch shots. He's pretty much an ideal point guard offensively, the only thing that he doesn't do is post up, but he's an unbelievable shooter from 3, mid-range and the foul line as well as a creative finisher and he has the ability to hit some real tough shots.

Criteria: I heavily factor in how good a guy was for their best 5 years. For example, when I think of how great Jordan was, I think of him mostly from '90-'93, doesn't mean I disregard 80's Jordan or second 3peat Jordan, but '90-'93 was when he was at the level to be arguably the greatest of all time. Same with Magic, when I think of him, I think of '87-'90, doesn't mean I disregard his game on the earlier Lakers championships, but Magic separates himself because of his prime years.

Longevity is also a factor, but this goes to the Barkley/Malone years. Malone will give you many more years, but if you build an equal team, who am I betting on to get it done and win? I'm betting on Barkley because in those best 5 years, he was that much better than Malone who may stay competitive, but still fall short each year.

And overall, what you accomplish is a consideration, but a lot of that depends on circumstances.

And how well your game translates to other eras is also a consideration for me because if I'm being honest, it's really hard for me to look at a guard who dribbles with his head down and shoots a set shot that takes forever to shoot and compare him to Kobe or Wade, or West and Oscar for that matter. I do try to look a lot at how good they were for their era because sports naturally progress over time, and it doesn't mean the newer is better attitude is always correct, but at the same time, I see it progressing much less now because the sport has been around a lot longer, while the NBA was a very new league in the 50's, and we saw a lot of changes such as the shot clock which completely changed the sport and then things such as the lane widening and eventually, the 3 point line.

[WillC]

Deron Williams ahead of George Gervin and Sam Jones? Wow, just wow.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Deron Williams ahead of George Gervin and Sam Jones? Wow, just wow.

I value all around players more than just scorers. Deron can score as well, but he's an excellent passer/playmaker. Sam made just 3 all-nba teams, all of them being second teams, lets not act like he was a 1st tier superstar.

Sam was part of a great, great team, with many great players, 3 of whom rank higher than him, those being Russell, Havlicek and Cousy.

And ThaRegul8r posted this quote from Walt Frazier regarding Sam's defense.


Sam was an adequate defensive player, but then, we all would have been adequate defensively with Russell behind us.

Sam was pretty much a 60's version of Reggie Miller from what i can tell, except he didn't have to be the best player on the team like Reggie did.

Deron has already gotten his teams as far as Gervin ever did as well.

[WillC]

A quote about Sam Jones for you to consider:

[ShaqAttack3234]

So his teammate, John Havlicek says he was a great defender, while Walt Frazier says he was just adequate and credited Russell for most of that. 2 legends with opinions that contradict each other. As far as those Celtics teams, I've always heard Sanders, KC Jones and John Havlicek credited as their best defenders, other than Russell, of course.

[Rose]

I totally forgot KJ. I'm ashamed of me.

[L.Kizzle]

So his teammate, John Havlicek says he was a great defender, while Walt Frazier says he was just adequate and credited Russell for most of that. 2 legends with opinions that contradict each other. As far as those Celtics teams, I've always heard Sanders, KC Jones and John Havlicek credited as their best defenders, other than Russell, of course.
Wilt als gave him great praise. He had great battles with Oscar. He put up 51 on him in a playoff game I believe.

[ThaRegul8r]

[QUOTE=WillC]A quote about Sam Jones for you to consider:

[ThaRegul8r]

So his teammate, John Havlicek says he was a great defender, while Walt Frazier says he was just adequate and credited Russell for most of that. 2 legends with opinions that contradict each other. As far as those Celtics teams, I've always heard Sanders, KC Jones and John Havlicek credited as their best defenders, other than Russell, of course.

Wilt als gave him great praise. He had great battles with Oscar. He put up 51 on him in a playoff game I believe.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with Sam's defensive ability. I don't think anyone (who knows anything about basketball) would deny that Sam was clutch.

[ThaSwagg3r]

I think Jason Kidd is the best of those three.
I am taking everything to account here, peak play, longevity, accomplishments, all of that...

Kidd and Payton have similar resumes for the most part.

Sure, Kidd led his team further as the #1 guy on his team, but you have to look at the context. Kidd led his team to the finals, but his conference was ridiculously weak. Who was really his competition then? Paul Pierce's Celtics? Ben Wallace's Pistons? Jermaine O'Neal and the Pacers? There really was no great team in the East. If you really think about it, if the Nets played in the West they would probably get eliminated in the 1st round; 2nd round at the furthest.

Payton pretty much played in the tough West his entire career aside from his one season with Boston and half with Milwaukee.

Payton was also the 1st and only PG to ever win the DPOY award in '96. Pretty impressive especially since he did it in the 90s when the Center position was at its peak and most productive.

Kidd and Payton's resumes are similar for the most part. Maybe Kidd's championship has a little bit more meaning since he played a bigger role to his team in 2011 than Payton did in 2006. If you ask me, I think both of these guys could replace each other and both of their respective teams would have still won the title.


Now lets compare their skills, individual play, primes/peaks, etc.

Kidd was the better rebounder and passer than Payton and I would say that was about it. I would like to add that Kidd was just a slightly better passer than Payton and it was nothing significant. It is not like Payton was some ball-hog chucker that had no clue how to pass. Rebounding does not mean much especially since these guys are guards and specifically point guards. Rebounding is not as important and crucial to them as other aspects are.

Every other aspect of the game in which Payton is better than Kidd in is why I feel Payton was better.

The biggest separator for me is Payton's ability to score and shoot which was one of Kidd's biggest weakness. Payton had the ability to take over games at the end of games, in the clutch, and could score 20+ points on any given night. He had seasons where he averaged multiple 20+ ppg while Kidd has never had a season where he averaged 20 or more.

Also look at their shooting %s and efficiency, Kidd was a horribly inefficient shooter and he consistently shot at the 37-42% range which is pretty bad for the most part. Payton typically shot in the 45-50% range, which is significant difference for the most part. Kidd's career shooting % is 40% while Payton's is 47%. That is a pretty big difference there and that definitely tips to Payton's advantage.

It is the same reason why I feel Stockton should be above Kidd. Stockton was a very efficient shooter, the most efficient of the three actually. Sure, he may not have scored as much or shot as much but at least his presence was there and defenses know they can't just sag off on guys like Payton and Stockton like they can with Kidd.

I would say Payton was a better defender than Kidd for the most part as you can see from their all-defensive selections. Payton was selected as a 1st team member defensively for 9 years while Kidd reached the 1st team only for a few seasons but did make the 2nd team for those other. I would say Kidd was pretty much overrated and somewhat inconsistent defensively. I have seen series where guys like Anthony Johnson and Avery Johnson would light this guy up. Payton was much more consistently defensively and he played better defensively during his peak too.

Payton also has a DPOY (which I mentioned earlier) over Kidd which is huge since Payton is the 1st and only PG to ever win a DPOY Award.

Payton's prime as a player is pretty much what separates himself from Kidd if you ask me. Their career resumes are similar for the most part, but I guess you can tip that advantage towards Kidd. I would say that Payton in his prime has a bigger advantage over Kidd than Kidd has over Payton in their careers which is why I feel Payton should be ranked above Kidd .

[ShaqAttack3234]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Another quote to consider:

Bob Ryan:

[PHILA]

23.Hal Greer
:facepalm


Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champions - Wayne Lynch

"I think I'm better than the fourth guard," Greer told reporters. "You gotta realize that Oscar is the greatest. Jerry West is right behind Oscar, but I think I should be up there. I think I'm on a par with West.


The Black Athlete: Emergence & Arrival - 1968

No one in basketball is more effective than Hal Greer at sprinting down the middle of the court on a fast break, stopping just beyond the keyhole and scoring on a jump shot. "Hal," said one NBA coach, "has the finest middle-distance shot in the game." From fifteen to eighteen feet, Greer is more deadly than the Big O." At 6 ft. 3 in. and 178 pounds, Greer frequently gives away 40 pounds and 6 inches to NBA adversaries assigned to shutting off the middle. The key to Greer's success, therefore, is maneuverability and speed. Particularly speed.


Great teams of pro basketball - 1971

First there was Hal Greer, one of the best guards in the game. He was fast. "I must be fast," Greer said, "always, always quick. The day I slow down I'm finished." And he was a constant scoring threat. Said his former coach, Dolph Schayes, "Hal has the finest middle-distance shot in the game. From 15 to 18 feet, Hal is more deadly than Oscar Robertson." At 6'2", 175 pounds, Greer was agile, strong and not prone to injury. An eight-year veteran of NBA play, he could be counted on to average 20 points a game and contribute steadily in assists.



The Game Within the Game - Walt Frazier

http://i.imgur.com/kEw3J.png


Dynasty's End: Bill Russell And the 1968-69 World Champion Boston Celtics - Thomas J. Whalen

"Hal needs a certain amount of recognition to show people that he's on par with Robertson and West," All-Star teammate Wilt Chamberlain said afterward.

Greer needed no convincing himself. He knew he was the equal of any elite guard in the league, and that included Sam Jones of the Celtics. "He's on a team where they work for him," Greer said. "Our team is balanced. We're a team all the way. We don't work for one guy. Sam doesn't really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He's strictly offense, I'm offense plus I move the ball, too. I move on the fast break." Always intense and demanding of himself as a player, Greer strove for nothing short of basketball perfection in every contest. "After a game," he once revealed, "I think about the mistakes I made on defense that night. Sometimes I stay up all night thinking about defense, like after I've been chasing Oscar all over the court. That's enough to keep any man awake."'



Jet Magazine - Mar 15, 1982

http://i.imgur.com/2jfMK.png



Hal Greer: Productive, Consistent and Durable

This article originally appeared in the January 2006 issue of Hoop.

Star Guard on a Team for the Ages

Hal Greer made the All-NBA Second Team seven straight years but never was selected to the All-NBA First Team. That’s what happens when you play during the same era as Oscar Robertson and Jerry West, but Greer--a 10-time All-Star who was honored as one of the NBA’s 50 Greatest Players--accomplished something that neither Robertson nor West did: being the leading playoff scorer on a team that defeated Bill Russell’s Boston Celtics in the playoffs and went on to win an NBA championship.

Russell’s Celtics won eight straight titles and 11 in 13 seasons, but many observers still maintain that the greatest single season team in NBA history is the 1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers. The Sixers beat Boston 4-1 in the Eastern Division finals and then defeated the Rick Barry-Nate Thurmond San Francisco Warriors in the NBA Finals. Greer produced 27.7 ppg, 5.9 rpg and 5.3 apg in the playoffs, while his teammate Wilt Chamberlain posted these mind-boggling numbers: 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg and 9.0 apg. Hall of Famer and Top 50 selection Billy Cunningham, the sixth man on the 1967 championship team, says, “Hal Greer was such a smart player. In his mind he had a book about every player he played against and what he had to do to make sure that he got free to get shots. He was probably as fine a screener as a guard as anybody. The thing about it was he knew that if he set a good screen then he would be open because he would force a switch and he would end up being matched up with a bigger, slower player that he knew he could easily beat to get whatever shot he wanted.”

Remember the old shoe commercial with playground legend Lamar Mundane? The voiceover said that Mundane would shoot as soon as he crossed midcourt and the fans would yell, “Layup!” That would be a good way to describe Hal Greer’s top of the key jump shot; Sixers coach Alex Hannum said that Greer made that shot at a 70% clip and gave Greer the green light to launch from that range whenever he was open. Greer’s jump shot was so fluid and so deadly that he shot his free throws that way, connecting on better than 80% of his career attempts. Cunningham offers high praise for Greer’s jump shot: “It was as good as anybody’s who ever played the game. I think the beauty of Hal Greer’s game is that he knew where he was most effective and he never shot the ball from an area where he was not completely confident and comfortable. He never went outside of 18-20 feet maximum, but he was deadly and he had the ability to get to that spot.”



The Palm Beach Post - Apr 2, 1967

"Greer plays the complete game,' said Hannum, "He's an offensive threat every minute he's in there. He has the perfect disposition, is well liked by everybody. We wouldn't have near the record this team has without Hal. You hear about our powerful front line of Wilt, Luke Jackson, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham, but Greer's outside shooting helps make this possible."

Greer admits that the toughest guard in the league against him is Boston's K.C. Jones, but denies the rap placed on him by some writers that he gets "K.C.-itus"

"The three best games of my career have been against Boston," he notes. "I scored 50 points against them my first year in the league, 45 against them here, and 38 this season in Boston."

While he is recognized generally as one of the top offensive players in the game, few people are aware that Greer can play defense with the best. Often, Hannum will send Greer after Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Rick Barry, or Sam Jones, at least until the 76ers' guard gets into foul difficulty.



The Sun - Nov 16, 1965

It's generally acknowledged in basketball circles that there are three superstar backcourters, Oscar Robertson. Jerry West and Sam Jones . . . and then there's Philadelphia's Hal Greer. Greer is the most underrated player in the league He's among the top five in my opinion. Teammate Al Bianchi adds, "He has to be one of the greatest backcourt shooters ever." He rates with Sharman, Robertson, and West when it comes to hitting the 15-20 foot jumper.

"My wife and I talk about it a lot", admits the eight year veteran who climbed over the 10000 figure with 33 tallies at New York's expense Saturday night. Howell and West reached it Sunday. "I don't like it but what can you do about it. As long as we're winning that's the important thing The ink is all right but winning is the thing. I think I'm better than fourth guard in the league."

[L.Kizzle]

Great quote, after you posted it, it seemed familiar, maybe you or someone else has posted it here before. But this also shows why ranking players in different roles is so difficult, especially when someone appears to have the talent to carry a team, but doesn't have to every night, some may appear capable, but don't have it in them, and aside from when quotes like this are available, you can often be left to guess what one guy would do if he were a franchise player, or if another guy who normally was, didn't have to be.
Sam was a walk on, he didn't even think he was gonna make the team. Hell, I don't even think he wanted to play, I gotta look up the quotes. I think if he had too, he easily could havecarried a team day in and day out.

[ShaqAttack3234]

[QUOTE=PHILA]:facepalm


Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champions - Wayne Lynch

"I think I'm better than the fourth guard," Greer told reporters. "You gotta realize that Oscar is the greatest. Jerry West is right behind Oscar, but I think I should be up there. I think I'm on a par with West.


The Black Athlete: Emergence & Arrival - 1968

No one in basketball is more effective than Hal Greer at sprinting down the middle of the court on a fast break, stopping just beyond the keyhole and scoring on a jump shot. "Hal," said one NBA coach, "has the finest middle-distance shot in the game." From fifteen to eighteen feet, Greer is more deadly than the Big O." At 6 ft. 3 in. and 178 pounds, Greer frequently gives away 40 pounds and 6 inches to NBA adversaries assigned to shutting off the middle. The key to Greer's success, therefore, is maneuverability and speed. Particularly speed.


Great teams of pro basketball - 1971

First there was Hal Greer, one of the best guards in the game. He was fast. "I must be fast," Greer said, "always, always quick. The day I slow down I'm finished." And he was a constant scoring threat. Said his former coach, Dolph Schayes, "Hal has the finest middle-distance shot in the game. From 15 to 18 feet, Hal is more deadly than Oscar Robertson." At 6'2", 175 pounds, Greer was agile, strong and not prone to injury. An eight-year veteran of NBA play, he could be counted on to average 20 points a game and contribute steadily in assists.



The Game Within the Game - Walt Frazier

http://i.imgur.com/kEw3J.png


Dynasty's End: Bill Russell And the 1968-69 World Champion Boston Celtics - Thomas J. Whalen

"Hal needs a certain amount of recognition to show people that he's on par with Robertson and West," All-Star teammate Wilt Chamberlain said afterward.

Greer needed no convincing himself. He knew he was the equal of any elite guard in the league, and that included Sam Jones of the Celtics. "He's on a team where they work for him," Greer said. "Our team is balanced. We're a team all the way. We don't work for one guy. Sam doesn't really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He's strictly offense, I'm offense plus I move the ball, too. I move on the fast break." Always intense and demanding of himself as a player, Greer strove for nothing short of basketball perfection in every contest. "After a game," he once revealed, "I think about the mistakes I made on defense that night. Sometimes I stay up all night thinking about defense, like after I've been chasing Oscar all over the court. That's enough to keep any man awake."'



Jet Magazine - Mar 15, 1982

http://i.imgur.com/2jfMK.png



[I]Hal Greer: Productive, Consistent and Durable

This article originally appeared in the January 2006 issue of Hoop.

Star Guard on a Team for the Ages

Hal Greer made the All-NBA Second Team seven straight years but never was selected to the All-NBA First Team. That

[ThaSwagg3r]

10.Jason Kidd
11.Gary Payton

Just curious, why do you think Kidd is above Payton? I just made a post explaining why I feel Payton should be ahead of him.

Post #159

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6243927&postcount=159

I think Nash shits on Kidd, Payton, and Stockton if we are talking prime/peak play but his longevity wasn't as good as any of those guys which is why he isn't ahead of any of them. Nash pretty much had growing pains. He didn't really dominate until he left Dallas and went on to play for Phoenix. Maybe in a few years Nash can and will surpass those guys, but till then I have Nash ranked behind those guys.

[Dasher]

I would like to see a good reason for Pistol to be on people's lists.

[L.Kizzle]

I would like to see a good reason for Pistol to be on people's lists.
He's a great player, but the more I look at him, the more I want to slide him off the list.

He's currently at #25 on my list. Lenny, Dumars, Moncrief, Sharman, CP3 are next up on my list.

[Boston C's]

I'll give it a shot, as I told GOAT, my criteria changes quite a bit from time to time, but I think I can come pretty close to being satisfied with this list.

I heavily factor in how good a guy was for their best 5 years. For example, when I think of how great Jordan was, I think of him mostly from '90-'93, doesn't mean I disregard 80's Jordan or second 3peat Jordan, but '90-'93 was when he was at the level to be arguably the greatest of all time. Same with Magic, when I think of him, I think of '87-'90, doesn't mean I disregard his game on the earlier Lakers championships, but Magic separates himself because of his prime years.

Longevity is also a factor, but this goes to the Barkley/Malone years. Malone will give you many more years, but if you build an equal team, who am I betting on to get it done and win? I'm betting on Barkley because in those best 5 years, he was that much better than Malone who may stay competitive, but still fall short each year.

And overall, what you accomplish is a consideration, but a lot of that depends on circumstances.

And how well your game translates to other eras is also a consideration for me because if I'm being honest, it's really hard for me to look at a guard who dribbles with his head down and shoots a set shot that takes forever to shoot and compare him to Kobe or Wade, or West and Oscar for that matter. I do try to look a lot at how good they were for their era because sports naturally progress over time, and it doesn't mean the newer is better attitude is always correct, but at the same time, I see it progressing much less now because the sport has been around a lot longer, while the NBA was a very new league in the 50's, and we saw a lot of changes such as the shot clock which completely changed the sport and then things such as the lane widening and eventually, the 3 point line.

Anyway, here's my list.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Jerry West
5.Dwyane Wade
6.Oscar Robertson
7.Steve Nash
8.Clyde Drexler
9.Isiah Thomas
10.Jason Kidd
11.Gary Payton
12.Walt Frazier
13.Allen Iverson
14.John Stockton
15.Bob Cousy
16.Kevin Johnson
17.Tracy McGrady
18.Chris Paul
19.Tim Hardaway
20.Deron Williams
21.George Gervin
22.Sam Jones
23.Hal Greer
24.Ray Allen
25.Reggie Miller

Based on just peak(1-2 years), both Paul and McGrady would be higher, but because Paul had a major disappointment in the playoffs in 1 of those years, got injured after that and missed 37 games, and was very good, but not at that level last year, his longevity is simply nowhere near most guys on the list. McGrady had one unbelievable peak year that stands head and shoulders above his others(2003), but in general, from 2002-2005, he was right near Kobe's level(except for 2004), so his prime was really impressive, and I don't hold the first round thing against him too much because it was wasted on teams with no chance, I mean look at KG who ranks high historically, when he had teams that were in similar situations to McGrady's, he didn't make it past the first round either.

Maybe I'm overrating Steve Nash, but consider this.

Despite his prime starting late, it's not really short.

2005- Nash signs with a team that had gone 29-53 the previous season and had been the 9th worst offensive team. In 2005, they went 62-20 and were easily the best offensive team in the league. Not only that, but they were 2-5 without Nash. And with Nash on the court, they scored 121.7 points per 100 possessions, but with him off the court, they scored just 104.1 points per 100 possessions. Granted, Amare Stoudemire had missed 29 games the previous season, and was bound to improve at his age, and there were a few other additions, but the big difference was Nash. He only averaged 15.5 ppg, but also averaged 11.5 apg and shot 50% from the field with a TS% of 61%. He increased his scoring to 24 ppg in the playoffs while maintaining his efficiency and still averaging over 11 apg. This included a series vs Dallas where he averaged over 30 ppg and 12 apg.

2006- Amare Stoudemire misses the season, Nash stepped up his scoring to 18.8 ppg, while his efficiency improved(led the league in TS% and FT% while shooting 51% from the field), still led the league in assists and Phoenix still made it to the conference finals. Despite Amare and his 26 ppg missing, the Suns still had the second best offense in the league.

2007- Led Phoenix to 61 wins and had his finest statistical season. He averaged 18.6 ppg, a career high 11.6 apg to lead the league, shot a career best 53.2% from the field and led the league in TS% and eFG% with mindblowing percentages of better than 65% and 61%, respectively. Phoenix was just 2-5 without him as well. They were the best offensive team in the league once again.

2008- Was having another similar season, but the Shaq trade slowed everything down, they had to adjust midseason and despite finishing strong after the initial adjustment period, they had the misfortune of facing the defending champion Spurs in the first round due to the strength of the West. Despite that, they finished with 55 wins and had the second best offensive team in the league.

2009- Not his best season, but still more than solid at around 16/10 on his usual great efficiency. Phoenix still finished 46-36 and had the second best offense in the league, despite the coaching mess with terry Porter making Shaq the first option in the first half and trying to make them more of a half court team. When they finally start looking to run more with Porter fired, Amare almost instantly goes out for the season with the eye injury.

2010- Back to the league's best offensive team and a 3rd conference finals where they gave the Lakers a good challenge. They overachieved and Nash had a season not that much different than his MVP seasons. Nash led the league in assists for the 4th time in his career.

2011- Only finished 40-42, but Amare Stoudemire left and Nash was left with a 38 year old Grant Hill as his second best player. They were still the second best offensive team in the league, and they were 39-36 with Nash in the lineup. They also scored 114.9 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor, but just 103.1 when he was off the floor. He led the league in assists again despite playing with nagging injuries at 37 years old.

Few would question that Nash is an all-time great passer and shooter, but he also has the ability to take over games as a scorer if needed, but doesn't look to do so most of the times, and I've seen him make numerous clutch shots. He's pretty much an ideal point guard offensively, the only thing that he doesn't do is post up, but he's an unbelievable shooter from 3, mid-range and the foul line as well as a creative finisher and he has the ability to hit some real tough shots.

I dont think paul should be that high (yet) hes still in the prime in his career and i think he belongs in the lower half of the top 25 for now or the cusp of it... mcgrady def does not belong that high to me because were lookin at this list in terms of more then peak play and injuries derailed his career greatly... I'm not sure I would put him in the top 25 at all either but this list is tough... I just think that paul and mcgrady shouldnt be that high is all otherwise you have a solid list... also deron williams is on this list too early as well I dont think in terms of career hes up there yet

[RRR3]

McGrady's 2002-2003 year: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Rose]

I would like to see a good reason for Pistol to be on people's lists.
My reasoning is: he somewhat brought flash(although he's not the main guy, or even a particularly key guy, but he is credited for it) to the game.

And second: I think that without him, the 3 point line takes longer to come into existence. Yes I know he's not the sole reason it was invented. But how many other long range shooters were there before him? Plus if he had played in the era of the 3 point line...he'd have a buttload more points. He had an effect on the game that brought more distance shooting to it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Just curious, why do you think Kidd is above Payton? I just made a post explaining why I feel Payton should be ahead of him.

Post #159

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6243927&postcount=159

I think Nash shits on Kidd, Payton, and Stockton if we are talking prime/peak play but his longevity wasn't as good as any of those guys which is why he isn't ahead of any of them. Nash pretty much had growing pains. He didn't really dominate until he left Dallas and went on to play for Phoenix. Maybe in a few years Nash can and will surpass those guys, but till then I have Nash ranked behind those guys.

To me, if Nash hasn't passed those guys already, then he won't do anything now after age 37 to make him better than them. I'm pretty sure that we've seen Nash at his best, and it's a significant enough sample size for me to put him over those guys.

Kidd's prime wasn't really much longer. He really became elite around '99, took his game to the next level in New Jersey in '02, fell off a bit after the microfracture surgery in '04 and really fell off after '07.

While Nash wasn't an MVP candidate in Dallas, he did make a couple of all-nba teams and him becoming a free agent was big news in '04 because he was already one of the best point guards in the league.

Payton definitely has an argument over Kidd, and I go back and forth on those 2, but I think the gap between them as passers is bigger than you do. And despite being a better scorer, he did tend to hold the ball quite a bit.


I dont think paul should be that high (yet) hes still in the prime in his career and i think he belongs in the lower half of the top 25 for now or the cusp of it... mcgrady def does not belong that high to me because were lookin at this list in terms of more then peak play and injuries derailed his career greatly... I'm not sure I would put him in the top 25 at all either but this list is tough... I just think that paul and mcgrady shouldnt be that high is all otherwise you have a solid list... also deron williams is on this list too early as well I dont think in terms of career hes up there yet

Well, as I mentioned prime/peak is something that I place a lot of emphasis on.

[Clippersfan86]

I am taking everything to account here, peak play, longevity, accomplishments, all of that...

Kidd and Payton have similar resumes for the most part.

Sure, Kidd led his team further as the #1 guy on his team, but you have to look at the context. Kidd led his team to the finals, but his conference was ridiculously weak. Who was really his competition then? Paul Pierce's Celtics? Ben Wallace's Pistons? Jermaine O'Neal and the Pacers? There really was no great team in the East. If you really think about it, if the Nets played in the West they would probably get eliminated in the 1st round; 2nd round at the furthest.

Payton pretty much played in the tough West his entire career aside from his one season with Boston and half with Milwaukee.

Payton was also the 1st and only PG to ever win the DPOY award in '96. Pretty impressive especially since he did it in the 90s when the Center position was at its peak and most productive.

Kidd and Payton's resumes are similar for the most part. Maybe Kidd's championship has a little bit more meaning since he played a bigger role to his team in 2011 than Payton did in 2006. If you ask me, I think both of these guys could replace each other and both of their respective teams would have still won the title.


Now lets compare their skills, individual play, primes/peaks, etc.

Kidd was the better rebounder and passer than Payton and I would say that was about it. I would like to add that Kidd was just a slightly better passer than Payton and it was nothing significant. It is not like Payton was some ball-hog chucker that had no clue how to pass. Rebounding does not mean much especially since these guys are guards and specifically point guards. Rebounding is not as important and crucial to them as other aspects are.

Every other aspect of the game in which Payton is better than Kidd in is why I feel Payton was better.

The biggest separator for me is Payton's ability to score and shoot which was one of Kidd's biggest weakness. Payton had the ability to take over games at the end of games, in the clutch, and could score 20+ points on any given night. He had seasons where he averaged multiple 20+ ppg while Kidd has never had a season where he averaged 20 or more.

Also look at their shooting %s and efficiency, Kidd was a horribly inefficient shooter and he consistently shot at the 37-42% range which is pretty bad for the most part. Payton typically shot in the 45-50% range, which is significant difference for the most part. Kidd's career shooting % is 40% while Payton's is 47%. That is a pretty big difference there and that definitely tips to Payton's advantage.

It is the same reason why I feel Stockton should be above Kidd. Stockton was a very efficient shooter, the most efficient of the three actually. Sure, he may not have scored as much or shot as much but at least his presence was there and defenses know they can't just sag off on guys like Payton and Stockton like they can with Kidd.

I would say Payton was a better defender than Kidd for the most part as you can see from their all-defensive selections. Payton was selected as a 1st team member defensively for 9 years while Kidd reached the 1st team only for a few seasons but did make the 2nd team for those other. I would say Kidd was pretty much overrated and somewhat inconsistent defensively. I have seen series where guys like Anthony Johnson and Avery Johnson would light this guy up. Payton was much more consistently defensively and he played better defensively during his peak too.

Payton also has a DPOY (which I mentioned earlier) over Kidd which is huge since Payton is the 1st and only PG to ever win a DPOY Award.

Payton's prime as a player is pretty much what separates himself from Kidd if you ask me. Their career resumes are similar for the most part, but I guess you can tip that advantage towards Kidd. I would say that Payton in his prime has a bigger advantage over Kidd than Kidd has over Payton in their careers which is why I feel Payton should be ranked above Kidd .

My favorite post in this thread, good job. What most of these older guys in this thread don't value is defense. In the eras of Cousy and West.. guards didn't really play defense. Gary Payton was the 2nd or at worst 3rd best PG of all time. Let me repeat to you guys again. He shut down PRIME and HEALTHY Michael Jordan. Literally made him look human and like an average player. Tell me another player that has done that. Not to mention Jordan was a bigger player and a dominant post player.

Kidd has been a great defender but at times an overrated one. Go watch Youtube videos or old games of the Glove in his prime and you'll see what real defense is. He not only was elite in the passing lanes and off the ball defense but also was an elite man defender. I'd actually say Gary Payton is the most flawless defender in NBA history. Usually players are either great off the ball defenders or great on ball defenders, not elite at both.

I'd put money in a head to head on prime Payton over any PG in NBA history besides Magic. Unfortunately Payton's prime was during Stockton's decline. Gary Payton would lock up any of these other guards on the list probably.

[Clippersfan86]

BTW Payton obliterated Stockton in the WCF in 96'. Stockton was on the tail end or just out of his prime but Stockton aged pretty well and was still a high caliber player.

Stockton only managed to average 9.8 ppg, 7.6 apg, 3 rpg and 1.7 spg on 39.7 percent shooting thanks to Payton's defense.

Payton averaged 20.7 ppg, 6 apg, 5.1 rpg, 1.6 spg on 50.4 percent shooting.

[ThaRegul8r]

What most of these older guys in this thread don't value is defense. In the eras of Cousy and West.. guards didn't really play defense.

This "older guy" notices that, evidently, you're unaware of the fact that West, whom you mentioned, was a great defender.

K.C. Jones, Walt Frazier, Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier, just to name a few, would like a word with you.

[Clippersfan86]

This "older guy" notices that, evidently, you're unaware of the fact that West, whom you mentioned, was a great defender.

K.C. Jones, Walt Frazier, Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier, just to name a few, would like a word with you.

West was a good defender for his time. I never meant to imply he was flat out terrible. I'm saying a guy like West with elite offense and solid-good defense is going to be valued over a guy with elite defense and great offense, it's just how it is. Gary Payton would shutdown West blindfolded.

It's definitely true that the defensive load in early eras was almost entirely on the bigs in the paint. Guards weren't really taught to play defense. Gary Payton would of ripped West a new one.

[Dasher]

My reasoning is: he somewhat brought flash(although he's not the main guy, or even a particularly key guy, but he is credited for it) to the game.

And second: I think that without him, the 3 point line takes longer to come into existence. Yes I know he's not the sole reason it was invented. But how many other long range shooters were there before him? Plus if he had played in the era of the 3 point line...he'd have a buttload more points. He had an effect on the game that brought more distance shooting to it.
Those aren't particularly good reasons. Flash has been in the games since The Harlem Rens were playing. Earl Monroe was flashy himself, the only difference was actually good as a pro. Pete's refusal to adapt to the pro game where his dad wasn't there to tolerate his bs makes him unfit for top 25 inclusion.

[iamgine]

While having a great defensive PG is nice, PG is probably the least important position in terms of where you want your defense to be. After all, how many NBA champions have a great defensive PG? Big men is where you want your defense to be.

[ThaSwagg3r]

While having a great defensive PG is nice, PG is probably the least important position in terms of where you want your defense to be. After all, how many NBA champions have a great defensive PG? Big men is where you want your defense to be.
I agree which is why I feel that Nash was better than Stockton, Payton, and Kidd during their primes. I am kind of indecisive in ranking the four right now and I may have to do more research before concluding. I think the one thing I know for sure right now is that Kidd will more than likely be last out of the four.

[G.O.A.T]

Sure, Kidd led his team further as the #1 guy on his team, but you have to look at the context. Kidd led his team to the finals, but his conference was ridiculously weak. Who was really his competition then? Paul Pierce's Celtics? Ben Wallace's Pistons? Jermaine O'Neal and the Pacers? There really was no great team in the East. If you really think about it, if the Nets played in the West they would probably get eliminated in the 1st round; 2nd round at the furthest.
Payton pretty much played in the tough West his entire career aside from his one season with Boston and half with Milwaukee.


Payton and the Sonics only advanced past the second round once during on his all-NBA seasons. The West was very tough, but Payton had a lot more around him during the 90's in Seattle than Kidd had with the Nets from 2002-2004. Not to mention that Kidd was leading Phoenix to 50 win seasons in the West from 1998-2001 prior to the trade. His best teammates were Cliff Robinson, Tom Guggliotta and Rex Chapman.


Maybe Kidd's championship has a little bit more meaning since he played a bigger role to his team in 2011 than Payton did in 2006. If you ask me, I think both of these guys could replace each other and both of their respective teams would have still won the title.

I disagree. Payton had a chance to play that same role for the 2004 Lakers and instead was on the losing end of one of the most lopsided match-ups in NBA Finals history. Chauncey Billups annihilated Payton. Meanwhile Kidd was guarding Wade and LeBron effectively for long stretches and hitting multiple big threes and at an even later stage of his career.



Kidd was the better rebounder and passer than Payton and I would say that was about it. I would like to add that Kidd was just a slightly better passer than Payton and it was nothing significant. It is not like Payton was some ball-hog chucker that had no clue how to pass.

Payton was a good passer, but Kidd is one of the all-time best. He was first or second in assists like nine straight years. Payton never finished higher than 3rd.

And surely you must have forgot to add that Payton's edge over Kidd as a defender is nothing significant. After all, Kidd made exactly the same amount of all-defensive teams, and has more total steals and has averaged more steals than Payton throughout their careers.


Rebounding does not mean much especially since these guys are guards and specifically point guards. Rebounding is not as important and crucial to them as other aspects are.

Butt when Kidd got a defensive rebound, it was instant fast break. That makes other players better.



The biggest separator for me is Payton's ability to score and shoot which was one of Kidd's biggest weakness. Payton had the ability to take over games at the end of games, in the clutch, and could score 20+ points on any given night. He had seasons where he averaged multiple 20+ ppg while Kidd has never had a season where he averaged 20 or more.

The one time of the game Kidd was a good scorer was in the clutch. Kidd could get someone else 20 points for the game and then hit the big shots down the stretch.

Payton was unquestionably a better scorer, but I don't think of him as an all-time great scorer or clutch player. And while Kidd never averaged 20 during the season he did in the playoffs during both of New Jersey runs if I recall correctly.


Also look at their shooting %s and efficiency, Kidd was a horribly inefficient shooter and he consistently shot at the 37-42% range which is pretty bad for the most part. Payton typically shot in the 45-50% range, which is significant difference for the most part. Kidd's career shooting % is 40% while Payton's is 47%. That is a pretty big difference there and that definitely tips to Payton's advantage.

No doubt Kidd's numbers are ugly, but he got the job done just the same.

It is the same reason why I feel Stockton should be above Kidd. Stockton was a very efficient shooter, the most efficient of the three actually. Sure, he may not have scored as much or shot as much but at least his presence was there and defenses know they can't just sag off on guys like Payton and Stockton like they can with Kidd.

I would say Payton was a better defender than Kidd for the most part as you can see from their all-defensive selections. Payton was selected as a 1st team member defensively for 9 years while Kidd reached the 1st team only for a few seasons but did make the 2nd team for those other. I would say Kidd was pretty much overrated and somewhat inconsistent defensively. I have seen series where guys like Anthony Johnson and Avery Johnson would light this guy up. Payton was much more consistently defensively and he played better defensively during his peak too.

Payton also has a DPOY (which I mentioned earlier) over Kidd which is huge since Payton is the 1st and only PG to ever win a DPOY Award.


Payton's prime as a player is pretty much what separates himself from Kidd if you ask me. Their career resumes are similar for the most part, but I guess you can tip that advantage towards Kidd. I would say that Payton in his prime has a bigger advantage over Kidd

Kidd made 5 all-NBA first teams in his prime, Payton just two. While Payton was posting the best numbers of his career, Kidd was the all-NBA first team point guard every year.

They are very close, it could go either way. I don't like looking at it how you are. By breaking down elements of their games. It's too subjective and as these two players careers evidence, potentially misleading. Payton is probably a better overall individual offensive and defensive player than Kidd, but something about the way Kidd played and the way his talents meshed with others made Kidd a better player.

It allowed Kidd's teams to consistently come through where Payton's teams rarely did. When Kidd had the talent around him to win his conference, his team did twice, Payton, who had that talent for a longer stretch of time, won it just once. Then there is the DAL/LA thing. Kidd plays great in the Finals and Payton plays awful, Mavs win, Lakers lose. It's a slight thing, intangible, but the evidence is there enough for me to feel like I'd rather have Jason Kidd as my PG and/or franchise player than Gary Payton.

[Big164]

Here is my top 5 PGs post-Magic.

1. John Stockton
2. Isiah Thomas
3. Steve Nash
4. Jason Kidd
5. Gary Payton

Stockton wins hands down. He has a winning record against all 4 pgs on the list.

Solid from 3p
Solid at FT
.500 FG%
Most Assists per game
Most steals per game

Only mistake was running into Jordan Twice.

[Rose]

Those aren't particularly good reasons. Flash has been in the games since The Harlem Rens were playing. Earl Monroe was flashy himself, the only difference was actually good as a pro. Pete's refusal to adapt to the pro game where his dad wasn't there to tolerate his bs makes him unfit for top 25 inclusion.
I think having that big of an effect on the game (the 3 point line, more than flash) Is worth something. It's why Mikan has to be in a top ten center's list. Now if anyone can show me who else was spacing the floor at the time by shooting that much from that far out, I'll happily remove him. I just think his historical importance on the game warrants him being at the bottom of the top 25. I realize his teams had no success in the playoffs if they even made, except his last year. And he was more or less a ball hog. But he pretty much made the three point line.

[Wukillabeez78]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Jerry West
7. Dwayne Wade
8. Walt Frazier
9. Bob Cousy
10. Jason Kidd
11. Gary Payton
12. Allen Iverson
13. Steve Nash
14. John Stockton
15. Clyde Drexler
16. George Gervin
17. Hal Greer
18. Sam Jones
19. Earl Monroe
20. Joe Dumars
21. Ray Allen
22. Reggie Miller
23. Dennis Johnson
24. Nate Archibald
25. Pete Maravich

[G.O.A.T]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Jerry West


This is my top six as well and I am hoping the top six for the final project. I really don't see a good case for anyone except Wade and I think his career is too incomplete at this point to join these ranks, but one day he will i suspect.





7. Dwayne Wade
8. Walt Frazier
9. Bob Cousy


I have the same three here as well, but again in a different order. This is where the individual match-up debates will be very interesting.



10. Jason Kidd
11. Gary Payton
12. Allen Iverson
13. Steve Nash
14. John Stockton
15. Clyde Drexler
16. George Gervin


I've said this group will bring the most debate of any. I can see a legit argument for any of these guys first or last in this group. Reallly a cool discussion just waiting to happen here.



17. Hal Greer
18. Sam Jones
19. Earl Monroe
20. Joe Dumars
21. Ray Allen
22. Reggie Miller
23. Dennis Johnson
24. Nate Archibald
25. Pete Maravich

From this point down, I think its going to cme down to player and era preference more than anything else The younger generation will have McGrady, Carter, Richmond and the like in the discussion while the fogies will push for Pistol and Pearl and Tiny etc.

Really nice job with your list. We have essentially the same tiers which always makes it easier for me to discuss players we disagree on head to head.

[Gifted Mind]

Excellent thread and discussion. Probably too late to join, but I guess I can provide input here and there

[G.O.A.T]

Excellent thread and discussion. Probably too late to join, but I guess I can provide input here and there

We have two spots left. You would be the PERFECT Penultimate addition. Please...

[Gifted Mind]

We have two spots left. You would be the PERFECT Penultimate addition. Please...
Though the project sounds very interesting, I'm not sure if I am a good fit with respect to the time commitment required. I tend to vanish from time to time.

[tredigs]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Jerry West
7. Dwayne Wade
8. Walt Frazier
9. Bob Cousy
10. Jason Kidd
11. Gary Payton
12. Allen Iverson
13. Steve Nash
14. John Stockton
15. Clyde Drexler
16. George Gervin
17. Hal Greer
18. Sam Jones
19. Earl Monroe
20. Joe Dumars
21. Ray Allen
22. Reggie Miller
23. Dennis Johnson
24. Nate Archibald
25. Pete Maravich

I'd like to see Stockton higher (without question ahead of Iverson), and Jerry West goes ahead of Isiah. But, outside of that it looks pretty solid to me. Nice list.

[DirtySanchez]

I just wanted to give you guys props on the thread.
Great read!!! Thanks!!

[magnax1]

Definitely a cool thread. I'm up for joining if there is a spot.
1-Jordan
2-Oscar
3-Magic
4-Kobe
5-West
6-Wade
7-Cousy
8-Stockton
9-Isiah
10-AI
11-Nash
12-Frazier
13-Kidd
14-Drexler
15-Gervin
16-TMac
17-Payton
18-Sam Jones
19-Greer
20-Monroe
21-Reggie
22-Ray
23-Deron
24-CP3
25-Dumars
Not very finished at all. I just put it together in a couple of seconds, so there's probably something pretty stupid on it.

[Toizumi]

Definitely a cool thread. I'm up for joining if there is a spot.
1-Jordan
2-Oscar
3-Magic
4-Kobe
5-West
6-Wade
7-Cousy
8-Stockton
9-Isiah
10-AI
11-Nash
12-Frazier
13-Kidd
14-Drexler
15-Gervin
16-TMac
17-Payton
18-Sam Jones
19-Greer
20-Monroe
21-Reggie
22-Ray
23-Deron
24-CP3
25-Dumars
Not very finished at all. I just put it together in a couple of seconds, so there's probably something pretty stupid on it.

Nice list.

I'm wondering about the criteria you used to make your list (eventhough it was a quick one). It seems that you have some players ranked based on their career achievements, longevity and others on their peak (individual) play.

Stockton at 8 is pretty high, considering you have him listed over some MVP level players and guys that were the clear no.1 players on finals teams.
He is definitely is one of the best PG's ever, has great longevity, solid career numbers, but in terms of individual play I would rank him lower, as I think most posters have done in this thread..
I can see that you are a Utah fan though. Watching a player first hand and following him over the course of his career leads makes you recognize a player's value and greatness.
When you rank Stockton this high, it seems that you put emphasis on longevity and career numbers, but than you have Deron and CP3 on your list. players that will go down as two of the best PG's but haven't accomplished enough IMO yet (still I have one of them in my list).
Overall, great list.


My list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Bob Cousy
7. Jason Kidd
8. Isiah Thomas
9. Walt Frazier
10. Dwyane Wade
11. Clyde Drexler
12. Steve Nash
13. John Stockton
14. Allen Iverson
15. Gary Payton
16. George Gervin
17. Hal Greer
18. Ray Allen
19. Reggie Miller
20. Tracy Mcgrady
21. Sam Jones
22. Bill Sharman
23. Mitch Richmond
24. Chris Paul
25. Vince Carter (probably doesnt deserve this, but whatever)

I realize that I have Kidd pretty high, but I hold him in high regard. The term glue guy is often used for wing (role)players that do a little bit of everything.. but if there's one player who made a team out of loose pieces (glued everything together) and did all the little (big) things, it was Jason Kidd.

Ranking Steve Nash was hard. The guy was a late bloomer, yet won 2 MVP's, putting up great numbers and being a terrific offensive player (making his whole team better). However, his defense has always been an issue and his teams have come up short a couple of times (most of the players on the list have at least one finals appearance). Also, he needs good teammates around him, for him to utilize his skills and be effective. Not individually, as he will always be great.. but for the team to have any succes. This goes for some other guys on the list as well, but some have worked with bad rosters and still had some sort of succes. Still, I have Nash ranked high, over Stockton even (that was hard). His 7 year run in Phoenix, as the orchestrator of the offense has been too good.


I'm surprised Bill Sharman hasn't made a lot of lists in this thread. He played way before my day and it's hard to find good footage of him, however (checks NBA reference..), in 11 seasons, he made 8 ASG (1 ASG MVP), 7 All NBA teams (4 first) and won 4 titles.
Yes, he played on great teams, with Cousy, Russell, Heinsohn.. but he led 2 of those championship teams in scoring. If Sam Jones makes a lot of lists, why not Sharman. Yes, Sam Jones won 6 more rings and was a big part of those championship winning teams, but on those first 4 championship teams, Sharman played a bigger role than Jones (eventhough Jones took over the starting job in Sharman last year). It wasnt untill Sharman was out of the league that Jones took over as one of the top scorers (increase in minutes) for the C's. Pretty close between those two in my opinion. If Sam Jones makes most lists and is top 20 in some of these lists, than Sharman can't drop out of the top 25 IMO.

Chris Paul makes my list, because in 6 seasons (one of which he only played 45 games) he has accomplished a lot and has shown to be an all time great PG already. 3 All NBA selections, 3 all defensive teams, MVP level play for two seasons. Even if his career would end right now, he would be remembered as one of the great what ifs (think Bill Walton). He will only climb up the ladder in coming years.

[ShaqAttack3234]

25. Vince Carter (probably doesnt deserve this, but whatever)

Actually, Carter is a really tough player to rank. I left him off, but that's why I had trouble ranking Ray Allen. Carter was considered a better player than Ray by most during their primes(2000-2007). Well, aside from 2003 when he barely played half the season. Then they ended up in completely different situations the next 2 seasons with Ray being the 3rd option on a great Celtic team and Carter remaining the first option on a bad Net team. The difference is that Ray has continued to be a solid player the last 2 seasons, while Vince has really fallen off.

This is why it gets difficult because you started having to consider players who were always good, but you never thought were THAT good. Several players on my list were never top 10 players in the league, imo, which is why it was hard to even include them, but when I got towards the bottom of the list, I felt at least ok putting them there.

That's why I put Paul so high, he was legitimately a top 2-3 player in 2008 and top 5 in 2009. Same with McGrady to some degree who was a legit top 5 player at his peak, and in the top 5 discussion for several seasons. Granted, McGrady didn't accomplish anything with his teams, but he was on teams that were as bad or worse than the teams that Kobe and Wade were getting no farther with and most regard them very highly.

[necya]

this is a first selection for each spot, not a definitive rank though.
need to discuss this group of players : thomas, frazier, payton, kidd, stockton, cousy at PG position.

magic
oscar
isiah
stockton
kidd
payton
frazier
cousy
KJ
DJ
Nash
Archibald
tim Hardaway
Price

MJ
West
Drexler
Kobe
Gervin
Wade
Hal
Miller
Moncrief
Jones
Petrovic
Richmond
Monroe
Mcgrady
Iverson
Pistol

--------------

Penny Hardaway*

* he doesn't belong to any list, anyway i would take him over 70% of those players i mentioned but he represents my biggest issue : why? cause he is the only one with Oscar who plays the 2 positions very well.
at point guard he became quickly the best in the mid 90's and when he had to play at SG, he fulfilled the responsabilities as well.
i will develop later.

[RRR3]

this is a first selection for each spot, not a definitive rank though.
need to discuss this group of players : thomas, frazier, payton, kidd, stockton, cousy at PG position.

magic
oscar
isiah
stockton
kidd
payton
frazier
cousy
KJ
DJ
Nash
Archibald
tim Hardaway
Price

MJ
West
Drexler
Kobe
Gervin
Wade
Hal
Miller
Moncrief
Jones
Petrovic
Richmond
Monroe
Mcgrady
Iverson
Pistol

--------------

Penny Hardaway*

* he doesn't belong to any list, anyway i would take him over 70% of those players i mentioned but he represents my biggest issue : why? cause he is the only one with Oscar who plays the 2 positions very well.
at point guard he became quickly the best in the mid 90's and when he had to play at SG, he fulfilled the responsabilities as well.
i will develop later.

Petrovic? He played like 4 years.

[G.O.A.T]

We have 21 people now participating. We have no open spots, but we encourage people to follow the project in the event that you want to join in later and/or we need to replace someone.

We're still waiting on six of you to post your lists and I know a few others who are still working on theirs while they are readng and discussing within the thread. Remember to have your list finalized (I suggest putting it in bold font) before Sunday Morning. That's when I will be collecting he data and preparing for the head-to-head debates. i am thinking just two days of voting for each match-up. i can't be on here every day and I know others can't either, but I think most of us can check in for a half hour once every few days or often enough to keep it moving. We can extend an extra day if there is a close vote or low participation.

Once again, please let me know if you or your list have not been included on the roster below...ADD YOUR LIST AS SOON AS YOU ARE READY


The Roster so Far

L.Kizzle (posted on pg 3)
ThaSwagg3r (posted on pg 3)
Rose (posted on pg 10)
Will3 (posted on pg 8)
Odinn (posted on pg 3)
G.O.A.T (posted on pg 5)
Wukillabeez78 (posted on pg 13)
Dasher (posted on pg 5)
1987 Lakers (posted on pg 10)
neyca (posted on pg 13)
Toizumi (posted on pg 13)
wally world (posted on pg 10)
Shaqattack3234 (posted on pg 10)
Magnax1 (posted on pg 13)

nycelt84
Tha Regul8r
iamgine
KGMN
RRR3
Rowe

[ThaSwagg3r]

Payton is probably a better overall individual offensive and defensive player than Kidd, but something about the way Kidd played and the way his talents meshed with others made Kidd a better player.

It allowed Kidd's teams to consistently come through where Payton's teams rarely did. When Kidd had the talent around him to win his conference, his team did twice, Payton, who had that talent for a longer stretch of time, won it just once. Then there is the DAL/LA thing. Kidd plays great in the Finals and Payton plays awful, Mavs win, Lakers lose. It's a slight thing, intangible, but the evidence is there enough for me to feel like I'd rather have Jason Kidd as my PG and/or franchise player than Gary Payton.
Certainly you don't want a shoot 1st, shoot 2nd and shoot 3rd pg, but how many pg's in that classic "pass first" mold have won rings in the past 30 years? And how many of them were considered more than role players?

I'll take the Isiahs and Paytons over Stockton. Give me Chris Paul or Deron Williams. It's really a bit of an oddity the way Stockton is lifted up on this pedestal for the way he played. Do you look at Chris Paul and go "Damn, he could be as good as Stockton if he'd be less of an individual force offensively"? Of course you don't. And yet we praise Stockton for being exactly that. I just don't get it.

Being able to make players better is all good and well, and it wins you a lot of regular season games...but when it comes down to it I still want that guy that can individually dominate. That guy that can strap a team on his back and say "I'm taking you with me" and drag them across the finish line whether they deserve to be there or not. And I'll gladly trade a few assists for a guy that can do that.

Stockton might look to score a bit more at times, but essentially he's the same guy in the 1st quarter that he is in the 4th. Where I think guys like Isiah, Paul, Magic etc have the advantage is their ability to individually dominate at times. They could be playmakers, but could also get it done themselves when they needed to. I'll say it again; it's not about averages, it's about impact. And sometimes it not what you do, but when you do it.

To put it succinctly neither Kidd or Stockton were closers. Payton could be. Plus GP obviously had the defensive edge, despite the fact that both Kidd and Stockton were very good defenders themselves.


something about the way Kidd played and the way his talents meshed with others made Kidd a better player.
Taking Kidd over Payton for those reasons is pretty much the same reason why one would take Stockton over Payton.


Stockton over Kidd is an easy choice for me...

Stockton and Kidd were virtually the same player except Stockton shot and scored with high efficiency while Kidd was a very inefficient shooter and scorer. Stockton also had a shooters presence, Kidd was pretty much sagged off all the time and the defense dared him to shoot the three. The defender on Kidd could have easily just doubled or trapped another player on his team because the defense wouldn't miss a beat. However, doing that against Stockton would just be plain stupid since Stockton would drain that shot since he was a 52% shooter and a near 40% shooter from downtown.

Not sure how much weight Kidd's championship ring in 2011 means in this situation because I also feel that Stockton could have won that ring if he was put in that situation. I understood your point about Payton not being able to perform well in the 2004 finals so there was no guarantee that Payton could replace Kidd on the Mavericks last season and they still win. Payton did not age as well as either Stockton or Kidd did, but I feel like his prime/peak was just better than both of them.

Still, Kidd was just a 7/6 role player for the Mavericks last season. That is not too difficult to replace.

[wally_world]

Sorry i cant participate too much in discussions because of time constraints. But i've read through most of the arguments and find some of which well thought-out, particularly ShaqAttack's take on Steve Nash, and the posts between Clipperfan, Swagg3r and GOAT on Payton/Kidd/Stock.

This is tentatively my rankings.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson/Kobe Bryant
4) Jerry West/Isiah Thomas /Oscar Robertson
7) Steve Nash/Dwyane Wade/Jason Kidd/Bob Cousy
11) Gary Payton/John Stockton
13) Allen Iverson
14) Walt Frazier/George Gervin

Will rank the rest later

Tier Three (Rest of the top 25)
Clyde Drexler
Bill Sharman
Sam Jones
Hal Greer
Tiny Archibald
Earl Monroe
Ray Allen
Dennis Johnson
Pete Maravich
Mitch Richmond

Tier Four (Strong considerations)
Reggie Miller
Lenny Wilkins
Joe Dumars
Tracy McGrady
Chris Paul

[RRR3]

After the first 6, it gets hard...
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Big O
4. Kobe
5. West
6. Wade

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Big O isn't better than Kobe.He just has empty stats nothing more.Based on team success Kobe is way ahead-1MVP and 1 title as a 2nd option on Kareem's team is not better than 1 MVP and 5 titles(2 FMVP)

[RRR3]

Big O isn't better than Kobe.He just has empty stats nothing more.Based on team success Kobe is way ahead-1MVP and 1 title as a 2nd option on Kareem's team is not better than 1 MVP and 5 titles(2 FMVP)

Robert Horry (7 rings) better than both of them! OMGZ! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[ThaSwagg3r]

Robert Horry (7 rings) better than both of them! OMGZ! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
:facepalm Was Robert Horry ever an MVP caliber player? Did he ever win the league MVP before or the finals MVP before?

Anyone who isn't an idiot knows that rings are useful for ranking leaders and 2nd options on the team (mainly leaders), not role players.

[iamgine]

So far I have

1. Michael Jordan


Will finish list soon.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Robert Horry (7 rings) better than both of them! OMGZ! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
Horry=role player on a chapionship team and a top 100 player in the league(bench player)
Kobe=2 time FMVP on a chapionship team and a top 3 player in the league(best player on the team-u can argue about him being a 1a option with Gasol as the 1b)
Big O=2nd option on a chapionship team and a top 30 player in the league(2nd option on the team)
you have to consider this stuff when ranking players.You can't just rank players based on stats

[necya]

So far I have

1. Michael Jordan


Will finish list soon.

:D nice one

[SteveNashMVPcro]

1-Jordan
2-Magic
3-Kobe
4-Oscar
5-West
6-Wade
7-Cousy
8-Isiah
9-Drexler
10-Nash
11-Stockton
12-Kidd
13-Frazier
14-Payton
15-AI
16-Gervin
17-Sam Jones
18-Greer
19-Monroe
20-Dennis Johnson
21-Reggie
22-Ray Allen
23-Archibald
24-Mitch Richmond
25-Tmac

I dont have the amount of knowledge as some people here do(had a lot of trouble ranking this older players) but im bored so i would like to take part :cheers:

[magnax1]

Nice list.

I'm wondering about the criteria you used to make your list (eventhough it was a quick one). It seems that you have some players ranked based on their career achievements, longevity and others on their peak (individual) play.
Well I value peak/prime more then longevity, but It's also hard to say someone is better if their peak is close and one of them had another 5 years of all star play.


Stockton at 8 is pretty high, considering you have him listed over some MVP level players and guys that were the clear no.1 players on finals teams.
He is definitely is one of the best PG's ever, has great longevity, solid career numbers, but in terms of individual play I would rank him lower, as I think most posters have done in this thread..
Well peak vs peak I have him a bit behind Isiah and AI, but not by a whole lot, and I do think that his longevity is enough to put him over.


When you rank Stockton this high, it seems that you put emphasis on longevity and career numbers, but than you have Deron and CP3 on your list. players that will go down as two of the best PG's but haven't accomplished enough IMO yet (still I have one of them in my list).
Really, I just can't think of anyone who was good of them. The other three guys who I thought of were Archibald, VC, and Maravich, none of whom I think were as good in their best years as Deron and CP3. Their level of play is really closer to the 15-20 range then 20-25, but I can't put them that high yet.

1-Jordan
2-Oscar
3-Magic
4-Kobe
5-West
6-Wade
7-Cousy (probably the hardest to rank for me)
8-Stockton
9-Isiah
10-AI
11-Nash
12-Kidd
13-Drexler
14-TMac
15-Gervin
16-Frazier
17-Payton
18-Sam Jones
19-Greer
20-Monroe
21-Reggie
22-Ray
23-Deron
24-CP3
25-Dumars
I changed the middle of it quite a bit

[Jacks3]

Kobe=2 time FMVP on a chapionship team and a top 3 player in the league(best player on the team-u can argue about him being a 1a option with Gasol as the 1b)

No you can't.

[RobertdeMeijer]

FINALIZED

If you want my list, I present it humbly:
(I realize I am new here and I have only followed the NBA since 1991 and have only read half a dozen books about basketball. I probably spend more time on Basketball Reference than I should. So take my opinion for what you think it's worth.)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jerry West
5. Oscar Robertson
6. John Stockton (The longer I look at him, the more amazed I am how good he was, even without Karl)
7. Bob Cousy
8. Walt Frazier (led to two championships, great on both sides)
9. Isiah Thomas
10. Dwyane Wade
11. Steve Nash
12. Sam Jones
13. Clyde Drexler (led two teams to finals in tough era and was compared to Jordan for a brief moment)
14. Jason Kidd (Better than Payton because of more team success and longer career)
15. Gary Payton
16. Allan Iverson (Could only win on one type of team, with Larry Brown as coach, in a weak division)
17. George Gervin
18. Hal Greer
19. Bill Sharman
20. Dennis Johnson
21. Ray Allen
22. Reggie Miller
23. Sidney Moncrief (I wish I could rate this guy higher)
24. Joe Dumars
25. Nate Archibald

[Toizumi]

If you want my list, I present it humbly:
(I realize I am new here and I have only followed the NBA since 1991 and have only read half a dozen books about basketball. I probably spend more time on Basketball Reference than I should. So take my opinion for what you think it's worth.)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jerry West
5. Oscar Robertson
6. John Stockton (The longer I look at him, the more amazed I am how good he was, even without Karl)
7. Bob Cousy
8. Walt Frazier (led to two championships, great on both sides)
9. Isiah Thomas
10. Dwyane Wade
11. Steve Nash
12. Sam Jones
13. Clyde Drexler (led two teams to finals in tough era and was compared to Jordan for a brief moment)
14. Jason Kidd (Better than Payton because of more team success and longer career)
15. Gary Payton
16. Allan Iverson (Could only win on one type of team, with Larry Brown as coach, in a weak division)
17. George Gervin
18. Hal Greer
19. Bill Sharman
20. Dennis Johnson
21. Ray Allen
22. Reggie Miller
23. Sidney Moncrief (I wish I could rate this guy higher)
24. Joe Dumars
25. Nate Archibald

I've seen one or two of your posts.. Nice to have you on this board :cheers: Also, if you have been following since 91, you're probably one of the older posters on this board..


You have Sam Jones at 12 over guys like Drexler, Kidd. I find it hard to rank him. Jones had a great career, being a big part of 10 championship teams, but I still feel that he was also lucky playing for a great C's team. Bill Sharman, in the same situation, with Russell and other stars, did just as well as Jones (his replacement). Jones missed out of a lot all NBA teams, due to playing in the same era as Robertson and West, but with 3 All NBA second teams, 5 all star selections, his individual resume is not as impressive as some of the other guards. He was a key member of several championship teams, but he was he really that much better than the other guys in the top 20, on an individual level.. guys that were the no. 1 option on finals teams/MVP type players?...



Really, I just can't think of anyone who was good of them. The other three guys who I thought of were Archibald, VC, and Maravich, none of whom I think were as good in their best years as Deron and CP3. Their level of play is really closer to the 15-20 range then 20-25, but I can't put them that high yet.

agreed. I almost put Deron at 25 as well..
Both players still have long ways to go though and you never know how their careers might turn out.
Take Gilbert Arenas for instance... His career fizzled out after his 06-07 season, due to injuries and personal (public) issues. In the three years prior to that, he put up great numbers, made all nba teams, was an MVP candidate, led his teams to the playoffs etc. Still, not many people would rank him over a player like VC even, eventhough Arenas was great for a short span and held in the same regards as a player like Deron, or even higher. shows that ranking is pretty subjective. Nobody is really wrong or right..



Actually, Carter is a really tough player to rank. I left him off, but that's why I had trouble ranking Ray Allen. Carter was considered a better player than Ray by most during their primes(2000-2007). Well, aside from 2003 when he barely played half the season. Then they ended up in completely different situations the next 2 seasons with Ray being the 3rd option on a great Celtic team and Carter remaining the first option on a bad Net team. The difference is that Ray has continued to be a solid player the last 2 seasons, while Vince has really fallen off.


What hurts Vince is that he has been labeled a choker and a quiter and hasnt enjoyed much team succes. With Ray, it's the complete opposite (clutch/leads when he has to/considered a winner).
Individually, Vince has always been a great, skilled player.. More so than Ray Allen, who is considered a specialist (eventhough he was solid all around).
In 06-07 VC still averaged 30, 7 and 5 throught 11 playoff games (wow.. really didnt remember that). Ray never came close to those numbers. still not many people would take prime VC over Ray and careerwise, Allen definitely has the edge. Clutch play/winning matters. This is also the reason why Carter didnt make some lists and I almost left him off of mine.
I picked him over guys like Maravich and Pearl, because of Vince's skilllevel/scoring/regular season play/brilliance at times.. but I'm not sure about my pick. I'm shocked to see Vince only made 2 All NBA teams though..

[iamgine]

Put this list on top of my head. Thinking more about prime plays and less longevity. Probably forgetting a lot of guys. I put some older guys that hasn't been on anyone's list before just to gauge response if they deserve a consideration based on their stats and accomplishment.

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kobe Bryant
3 Oscar Robertson
4 Magic Johnson
5 John Stockton
6 Dwyane Wade
7 Jerry West
8 Chris Paul
9 Clyde Drexler
10 Allen Iverson
11 George Gervin
12 Steve Nash
13 Vince Carter
14 Gary Payton
15 Manu Ginobili
16 Ray Allen
17 Chauncey Billups
18 Kevin Johnson
19 Sam Cassell
20 Bob Cousy
21 Walter Davis
22 Reggie Miller
23 Mark Price
24 Tiny Archibald
25 Paul Westphal

[G.O.A.T]

Put this list on top of my head. Thinking more about prime plays and less longevity. Probably forgetting a lot of guys. I put some older guys that hasn't been on anyone's list before just to gauge response if they deserve a consideration based on their stats and accomplishment.

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kobe Bryant
3 Oscar Robertson
4 Magic Johnson
5 John Stockton
6 Dwyane Wade
7 Jerry West
8 Chris Paul
9 Clyde Drexler
10 Allen Iverson
11 George Gervin
12 Steve Nash
13 Vince Carter
14 Gary Payton
15 Manu Ginobili
16 Ray Allen
17 Chauncey Billups
18 Kevin Johnson
19 Sam Cassell
20 Bob Cousy
21 Walter Davis
22 Reggie Miller
23 Mark Price
24 Tiny Archibald
25 Paul Westphal

Guessing you just forgot Isiah...

Nice to see a few guys like Westphal and the Greyhound getting mentioned.

[L.Kizzle]

Guessing you just forgot Isiah...

Nice to see a few guys like Westphal and the Greyhound getting mentioned.
Even more crazier, no one has mentioned DAVID THOMPSON. Has he showed up on anyone's list?

I actually just overlooked him, I gotta go back and edit my list once more, I think he deserves a spot on the top 25.

[magnax1]

agreed. I almost put Deron at 25 as well..
Both players still have long ways to go though and you never know how their careers might turn out.
Take Gilbert Arenas for instance... His career fizzled out after his 06-07 season, due to injuries and personal (public) issues. In the three years prior to that, he put up great numbers, made all nba teams, was an MVP candidate, led his teams to the playoffs etc. Still, not many people would rank him over a player like VC even, eventhough Arenas was great for a short span and held in the same regards as a player like Deron, or even higher. shows that ranking is pretty subjective. Nobody is really wrong or right..
Well I think CP3 and Deron were better then Gilbert, though honestly if there was one top ten guy I never watched a lot of this decade it's probably Gilbert. Don't know why, but I just never watched him except in the playoffs.
And you're right, all this stuff is subjective, and I do hate when people act like all NBA selections our stats are some sort of proof when most stats are so obviously flawed, and all NBA selections are made by writers who really are less knowledgeable then a lot of posters on here.

[G.O.A.T]

http://i.acdn.us/image/A1487/148764/300_148764.jpg

I am almost certain he will be ignored by most but even if you do not feel compelled to include Davies in your top 25, it should be noted that he unquestionably warrants consideration and on the merits of his achievements only, regardless of era, he is a no-brainer top-25 if not top 10-15.

Davies was the NBA's first star at the guard position. Before that he was the best guard of the BAA/NBL era. Before that he was the best player in the Armed forces league, his team losing three games in three years in-between his service overseas in both the European and Pacific theaters. Before that he was an all-American for two years at Seton Hall and their best player for three as they lost just five games in those three years.

Davies was a star in college who sacrificed the first three years of his career to military service. When he returned he was offered by Lester B. Harrison to join Harrison's newly formed NBL franchise, the Rochester Royals. Davies started the season on the bench playing behind future Hall of Famers Al- Cervi and Red Holzman, but by the end of the year he was their key player and leading scorer during the playoffs which concluded with Rochester winning the 1945-46 NBL Championship. The next season the BAA began operations and George Mikan invaded the NBL. Despite the presence of Mikan, Davies named MVP of the NBL in 1946-47. The next season Davies was again an all-league selection as the Royals won their division but lost the title to the newly formed Lakers and George Mikan.

The Royals jumped to the BAA for the 1948-49 season. Davies was first team all-league in 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952. In 1953 he was second team all-league, but only one guard (Cousy) made the first team along with Dolph Schayes and three centers. Davies was the top vote getter on the second team.

So if your keeping track, from 1947-1953 Davies was either the best or second best guard in the best league in pro basketball. That's a seven year stretch even with losing ages 23-25 to Military service.

Davies led the league in assists in 1948 (NBL) and 1949 (BAA) and finished in the top six in that category every year from 1947-1954. He consistently shot above the league average from the field and scored as well as any ball handling guard from the 1950's.

He led the Royals to the 1951 title as the #2 vote getter for all-NBA.
He was the first player in NBA history to record 20 assists in a game
He was the originator of the behind the back pass and dribble in major college basketball.
At age 35 and 26 in his final NBA season, the first with the shot clock posted his best per 36 minute numbers of his career and shot a career best 42% from the field.

http://images.sportscarddatabase.com/0/700000/760000/760000/760410.jpg

Davies began his career in an era dominated by ball handling and passing and was the best player in the world in both regards.

Should we exclude him, he'll be the only player to be all-NBA and his teams star during a title season not in our top 25 by position.

I hope some of you give him more consideration, but if not, I hope you at least learned something about how great his career was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLAqMZNBqhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE2WuLunKA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4PslB00b6w

In the last one you get two Davies highlights (#11) starting at 1:30 you can see a two hand set shot off the dribble from three-point range and then a flying left handed scoop shot off the dribble. Both in the 1951 NBA Finals.

[ThaSwagg3r]

G.O.A.T, I responded to your Kidd-Payton-Stockton argument a couple pages back, not sure if you read it or not or if you have just no comment on it. Anyways I am just curious but is the next group project you are going to set up involving Forwards? I think you should set up a project involving the best players in each year and stuff. I hope you will do that eventual.

Post #194
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6248754&postcount=194

[KGMN]

This is how my (not very well thought out) calculated rankings went:

EDIT: CHANGED, mostly done!

Jordan, Michael
Johnson, Magic
Bryant, Kobe
Robertson, Oscar
West, Jerry
Stockton, John
Gervin, George
Cousy, Bob
Kidd, Jason
Wade, Dwyane
Frazier, Walt
Nash, Steve
Thomas, Isiah
Iverson, Allen
Johnson, Kevin
McGrady, Tracy
Jones, Sam
Paul, Chris
Drexler, Clyde
Thompson, David
Moncrief, Sidney
Maravich, Pete
Greer, Hal
Carter, Vince
Richmond, Mitch

-----------------------------------
26. Monroe, Earl
27. Payton, Gary
28. Allen, Ray
29. Miller, Reggie
30. Guerin, Richie
31. Sharman, Bill
32. Ginobili, Manu
33. Davies, Bob
34. Westphal, Paul
35. Hardaway, Tim
36. Davis, Walter
37. Williams, Deron
38. Johnson, Dennis
39. Price, Mark
40. Parker, Tony
41. Williams, Gus
42. Goodrich, Gail
43. Archibald, Nate
44. Bing, Dave
45. Billups, Chauncey
46. Cheeks, Maurice
47. Dumars, Joe
48. Wilkens, Lenny
49. White, Jo Jo
50. Rose, Derrick
51. Robertson, Alvin
52. Hardaway, Anfernee
53. Rodgers, Guy
54. Nixon, Norm
55. Gola, Tom
56. Sloan, Jerry
57. Sprewell, Latrell
58. Van Lier, Norm
59. McGuire, Dick

I have changed this with my actual opinions.

[L.Kizzle]

I am almost certain he will be ignored by most but even if you do not feel compelled to include Davies in your top 25, it should be noted that he unquestionably warrants consideration and on the merits of his achievements only, regardless of era, he is a no-brainer top-25 if not top 10-15.

Davies was the NBA's first star at the guard position. Before that he was the best guard of the BAA/NBL era. Before that he was the best player in the Armed forces league, his team losing three games in three years in-between his service overseas in both the European and Pacific theaters. Before that he was an all-American for two years at Seton Hall and their best player for three as they lost just five games in those three years.

Davies was a star in college who sacrificed the first three years of his career to military service. When he returned he was offered by Lester B. Harrison to join Harrison's newly formed NBL franchise, the Rochester Royals. Davies started the season on the bench playing behind future Hall of Famers Al- Cervi and Red Holzman, but by the end of the year he was their key player and leading scorer during the playoffs which concluded with Rochester winning the 1945-46 NBL Championship. The next season the BAA began operations and George Mikan invaded the NBL. Despite the presence of Mikan, Davies named MVP of the NBL in 1946-47. The next season Davies was again an all-league selection as the Royals won their division but lost the title to the newly formed Lakers and George Mikan.

The Royals jumped to the BAA for the 1948-49 season. Davies was first team all-league in 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952. In 1953 he was second team all-league, but only one guard (Cousy) made the first team along with Dolph Schayes and three centers. Davies was the top vote getter on the second team.

So if your keeping track, from 1947-1953 Davies was either the best or second best guard in the best league in pro basketball. That's a seven year stretch even with losing ages 23-25 to Military service.

Davies led the league in assists in 1948 (NBL) and 1949 (BAA) and finished in the top six in that category every year from 1947-1954. He consistently shot above the league average from the field and scored as well as any ball handling guard from the 1950's.

He led the Royals to the 1951 title as the #2 vote getter for all-NBA.
He was the first player in NBA history to record 20 assists in a game
He was the originator of the behind the back pass and dribble in major college basketball.
At age 35 and 26 in his final NBA season, the first with the shot clock posted his best per 36 minute numbers of his career and shot a career best 42% from the field.


Davies began his career in an era dominated by ball handling and passing and was the best player in the world in both regards.

Should we exclude him, he'll be the only player to be all-NBA and his teams star during a title season not in our top 25 by position.

I hope some of you give him more consideration, but if not, I hope you at least learned something about how great his career was.
It's always interesting reading about the early pros like Davies, ect. But I notice with them, it's either one or the other.

Bob Cousy gets all the praise as the first true great pg and ball handler.

Paul Arizin get's that praise as the first great small forward/jump shooter, but what about Joe Fulks? He was doin it years before, as was Davies.

Dolph Schayes also get's knocked down (to a lesser extent) to Bob Pettit as the first great power forward.


What about other guards from that era like Andy Phillip, Davies tammate Bobby Wanzer, Dick McGuire (who SLAM top 500 has him about 10 spots ahead of Davies) and Slater Martin?

[G.O.A.T]

G.O.A.T, I responded to your Kidd-Payton-Stockton argument a couple pages back, not sure if you read it or not or if you have just no comment on it. Anyways I am just curious but is the next group project you are going to set up involving Forwards? I think you should set up a project involving the best players in each year and stuff. I hope you will do that eventual.

Post #194
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6248754&postcount=194

I am trying not to dominate the conversation with one topic. I've enjoyed our discussion and I think it has helped some other people sort their thoughts out to. In regards to your last response...

I did see it and I don't agree with very much, but I can see your point. I think if you look at their numbers in the NBA finals or Payton's elimination game numbers though you'll see he wasn't exactly a closer. A superb all-around player to be sure, but I still think I'd rather be Jason Kidd's coach or teammate and neither one did so much more in aspect of the game that I can distinguish them. And I think you saying Kidd was an easily replaceable 7-6 player sums up our difference of opinion. To me Kidd was the perfect fit and understood especially what Dirk needed out of him. He played exceptional defense in the finals in match-ups I'd have expected him to get trounced in. He hit multiple big clutch shots and had five good games and one stinker. Without him, they don't win the title in my opinion, in yours he is replaceable. There is obviously something about Kidd I value that doesn't resonate with you. Good discussion though.



This is how my (not very well thought out) calculated rankings went:


Jordan, Michael
Johnson, Magic
Gervin, George
West, Jerry
Robertson, Oscar
Wade, Dwyane
Bryant, Kobe
Johnson, Kevin
Paul, Chris
Jones, Sam
Westphal, Paul
McGrady, Tracy
Stockton, John
Thompson, David
Drexler, Clyde
Davis, Walter
Ginobili, Manu
Moncrief, Sidney
Price, Mark
Nash, Steve
Cousy, Bob
Carter, Vince
Maravich, Pete
Frazier, Walt
Williams, Gus
Guerin, Richie
Iverson, Allen
Monroe, Earl
Billups, Chauncey
Thomas, Isiah
Miller, Reggie
Allen, Ray
Sharman, Bill
Rose, Derrick
Greer, Hal
Richmond, Mitch
Hardaway, Tim
Williams, Deron
Wilkens, Lenny
Payton, Gary
Parker, Tony
Goodrich, Gail
Kidd, Jason
Archibald, Nate
Cheeks, Maurice
Bing, Dave
Robertson, Alvin
Hardaway, Anfernee
Rodgers, Guy
Gola, Tom
Sloan, Jerry
Davies, Bob
Dumars, Joe
Zaslofsky, Max
Johnson, Dennis
Nixon, Norm
McGuire, Dick
Wanzer, Bobby
Sprewell, Latrell
White, JoJo
Van Lier, Norm
Seymour, Paul
Martin, Slater


I will change this with my actual opinions later.

I appreciate your efforts nonetheless.

[iamgine]

Do people feel like Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, Walter Davis, Mark Price, Paul Westphal can arguably be put in the top 25?

[KGMN]

I appreciate your efforts nonetheless.

Thank you. Now I will change the rankings to fit my actual opinion.

[magnax1]

Do people feel like Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, Walter Davis, Mark Price, Paul Westphal can arguably be put in the top 25?
VC and Westphal have good cases, but the other guys would be difficult. I thought about dropping someone for Wesphal, but he's one of those guys that's hard to rank because of lack of footage.

[L.Kizzle]

Do people feel like Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, Walter Davis, Mark Price, Paul Westphal can arguably be put in the top 25?
Some more than others.

From this list Vince and Billups probably have the best shot to make the top 25.

Westphal does have the most individual accolades out of this group. 3 All-NBA 1st team. Cassell probably the least likely though he has the most rings (tied with Manu and I think Manu is the second least likely.)

Walter Davis never really stood out in the 80s. Was he that much better than Otis Birdsong and Michael Ray Richardson and Norm Nixon and Reggie Theus and Alvin Robertson, the 2nd tier group of 80s guards?

The same can be said about Mark Price and the 90s guards he was grouped with. Stockton, Timmy, KJ and Terry Porter.

[WillC]

This is how my (not very well thought out) calculated rankings went:

EDIT: CHANGED!

Jordan, Michael
Johnson, Magic
Bryant, Kobe
Robertson, Oscar
West, Jerry
Stockton, John
Wade, Dwyane
Gervin, George
Thompson, David
Johnson, Kevin
Cousy, Bob
Paul, Chris
Frazier, Walt
Maravich, Pete
Jones, Sam
Westphal, Paul
McGrady, Tracy
Drexler, Clyde
Iverson, Allen
Davis, Walter
Moncrief, Sidney
Nash, Steve
Carter, Vince
Price, Mark
Williams, Gus
Ginobili, Manu
Guerin, Richie
Monroe, Earl
Billups, Chauncey
Thomas, Isiah
Miller, Reggie
Allen, Ray
Sharman, Bill
Rose, Derrick
Greer, Hal
Davies, Bob
Richmond, Mitch
Hardaway, Tim
Williams, Deron
Wilkens, Lenny
Payton, Gary
Parker, Tony
Goodrich, Gail
Kidd, Jason
Archibald, Nate
Cheeks, Maurice
Dumars, Joe
Bing, Dave
Robertson, Alvin
Hardaway, Anfernee
Rodgers, Guy
Gola, Tom
Sloan, Jerry
Sprewell, Latrell
Zaslofsky, Max
Johnson, Dennis
Nixon, Norm
McGuire, Dick
White, JoJo


I will change this with my actual opinions later.

What kind of criteria does your calculation use if it means Isiah Thomas ends up 30th? That must be a very weak calculation. If it uses stats, then Isiah would be much higher. If it uses awards, then Isiah would be much higher. If it uses championship success, Isiah would be much higher.

If it uses all three, then he should be a top 5 or 6 guard of all-time.

[Toizumi]

What kind of criteria does your calculation use if it means Isiah Thomas ends up 30th? That must be a very weak calculation. If it uses stats, then Isiah would be much higher. If it uses awards, then Isiah would be much higher. If it uses championship success, Isiah would be much higher.

If it uses all three, then he should be a top 5 or 6 guard of all-time.

And Jason Kidd at 44..
I think it is stat based, with scoring/shooting percentages (scoring effeciency) being a big factor. Anyways KGMN himself posted that he calculation wasn't that great and that these aren't his personal rankings.

Coming up with good formula's to rank players is tough, especially for PG's as their value relies on certain intangibles that can't be measured (making everyone around them better, running a team).

[RobertdeMeijer]

You have Sam Jones at 12 over guys like Drexler, Kidd. I find it hard to rank him. Jones had a great career, being a big part of 10 championship teams, but I still feel that he was also lucky playing for a great C's team. Bill Sharman, in the same situation, with Russell and other stars, did just as well as Jones (his replacement). Jones missed out of a lot all NBA teams, due to playing in the same era as Robertson and West, but with 3 All NBA second teams, 5 all star selections, his individual resume is not as impressive as some of the other guards. He was a key member of several championship teams, but he was he really that much better than the other guys in the top 20, on an individual level.. guys that were the no. 1 option on finals teams/MVP type players?...

Very good points Toizumi. It's so hard to rank those 60's Celtics because they were all at least very good. But how many were great? My assumption was that Sam Jones led that team offensively (his fg% was surpringly high) and deserves almost as much credit as Russell, Cousy and Havlicek. Then again, he's not THAT great individually. Honestly, I don't know. I ended up putting him below the decisively greats and higher than the almost greats. Tough!


What kind of criteria does your calculation use if it means Isiah Thomas ends up 30th? That must be a very weak calculation. If it uses stats, then Isiah would be much higher. If it uses awards, then Isiah would be much higher. If it uses championship success, Isiah would be much higher.

Win Shares and Statistical +/- are not kind to Zeke, either. Stats just don't seem to like him. Same goes for Joe Dumars. Bill Laimbeer on the other hand...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1986

[KGMN]

And Jason Kidd at 44..
I think it is stat based, with scoring/shooting percentages (scoring effeciency) being a big factor. Anyways KGMN himself posted that he calculation wasn't that great and that these aren't his personal rankings.

Coming up with good formula's to rank players is tough, especially for PG's as their value relies on certain intangibles that can't be measured (making everyone around them better, running a team).

Yep. It was entirely stat-based giving a high value to shooting percentages. I wanted to divide it up into shooting guards and point guards and have different formulae, but it was too much work, so I just decided to keep my barely-thought-out formula.

I am changing them to my actual opinions right now, but it's difficult considering I know almost nothing about players from a long time ago as I became an NBA fan around the year 2000.

[Mike Barrett]

Silly stuff removed

[iamgine]

After some consideration, my Final ranking goes like this:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Jerry West
7. Chris Paul
8. George Gervin
9. John Stockton
10. Clyde Drexler
11. Steve Nash
12. Isiah Thomas
13. Gary Payton
14. Allen Iverson
15. Vince Carter
16. Walt Frazier
17. Kevin Johnson
18. Ray Allen
19. Chauncey Billups
20. Mark Price
21. Bob Cousy
22. Reggie Miller
23. Sidney Moncrief
24. Jason Kidd
25. Nate Archibald

[G.O.A.T]

Hope this helps put some of the defensive impact of the older players into better, more clear context. Just my opinions below, but the result of two years of research.

1955 - Defensive Player of the Year: Dolph Schayes
C: Clyde Lovellette
F: Bob Pettit
F: Dolph Schayes
G: Paul Seymour
G: Slater Martin

Second Team
C: Larry Foust
F: Earl Lloyd
F: Red Rocha
G: George King
G: Dick McGuire

1956 Defensive Player of the Year: Maurice Stokes
C: Maurice Stokes
F: Bob Pettit
F: Dolph Schayes
G: Paul Seymour
G: Bill Sharman

Second Team
C: Red Kerr
F: Jack Coleman
F: George Yardley
G: Tom Gola
G: Bobby Wanzer

1957 - Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Bob Pettit
F: Jack Coleman
G: Bill Sharman
G: Slater Martin

Second Team
C: Maurice Stokes
F: Jim Loscutoff
F: Paul Arizin
G: Richie Regan
G: Bob Cousy

1958 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Bob Pettit
F: Dolph Schayes
G: Tom Gola
G: Slater Martin

Second Team
C: Maurice Stokes
F: Paul Arizin
F: Cliff Hagan
G: Bill Sharman
G: Dick McGuire

1959 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Dolph Schayes
F: Tom Gola
G: Bill Sharman
G: Slater Martin

Second Team
C: Red Kerr
F: Bob Pettit
F: Elgin Baylor
G: Jack McMahon
G: Dick McGuire

1960 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Bob Pettit
F: Elgin Baylor
G: Tom Gola
G: Larry Costello

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Dolph Schayes
F: Frank Ramsey
G: Bill Sharman
G: Johnny McCarthy

1961 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Elgin Baylor
F: Tom Gola
G: Hal Greer
G: Larry Costello

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Bob Pettit
F: Rudy LaRusso
G: Johnny McCarthy
G: K.C. Jones

1962 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Rudy LaRusso
F: Tom Sanders
G: Al Attles
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Elgin Baylor
F: Tom Gola
G: Hal Greer
G: Jerry West

1963 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Rudy LaRusso
F: Tom Sanders
G: Al Attles
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Bob Pettit
F: Elgin Baylor
G: Jerry West
G: Lenny Wilkens

1964 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Nate Thurmond
F: Tom Sanders
G: Al Attles
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Bob Pettit
F: Rudy LaRusso
G: Jerry West
G: Oscar Robertson

1965 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Nate Thurmond
F: Tom Sanders
G: Jerry West
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Rudy LaRusso
F: Dave DeBusschere
G: Oscar Robertson
G: Lenny Wilkens

1966 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Tom Sanders
F: Dave DeBusschere
G: Jerry West
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Luke Jackson
F: John Havlicek
G: Hal Greer
G: Al Attles

1967 Defensive Player of the Year: Wilt Chamberlain
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Luke Jackson
F: Dave DeBusschere
G: Jerry West
G: K.C Jones

Second Team
C: Bill Russell
F: Nate Thurmond
F: John Havlicek
G: Hal Greer
G: Al Attles

1968 Defensive Player of the Year: Wilt Chamberlain
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Luke Jackson
F: Dave DeBusschere
G: Hal Greer
G: Al Attles

Second Team
C: Bill Russell
F: Rudy LaRusso
F; John Havlicek
G: Jerry Sloan
G: Jerry West

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Guards only? This is based on all time as of the year 2011.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Isiah Thomas
7. John Stockton
8. Bob Cousy
9. Walt "Clyde" Frazier
10. Clyde Drexler
11. Jason Kidd
12. Gary Payton
13. Allen Iverson
14. Dwayne Wade
15. George Gervin
16. Steve Nash
17. Sam Jones
18. Hal Greer
19. Nate "Tiny" Archibald
20. Earl "the Pearl" Monroe
21. Tracy McGrady
22. Ray Allen
23. Reggie Miller
24. Dave Bing
25. David Thompson

[WillC]

Hope this helps put some of the defensive impact of the older players into better, more clear context. Just my opinions below, but the result of two years of research.

1955 - Defensive Player of the Year: Dolph Schayes
C: Clyde Lovellette
F: Bob Pettit
F: Dolph Schayes
G: Paul Seymour
G: Slater Martin

Second Team
C: Larry Foust
F: Earl Lloyd
F: Red Rocha
G: George King
G: Dick McGuire

1956 Defensive Player of the Year: Maurice Stokes
C: Maurice Stokes
F: Bob Pettit
F: Dolph Schayes
G: Paul Seymour
G: Bill Sharman

Second Team
C: Red Kerr
F: Jack Coleman
F: George Yardley
G: Tom Gola
G: Bobby Wanzer

1957 - Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Bob Pettit
F: Jack Coleman
G: Bill Sharman
G: Slater Martin

Second Team
C: Maurice Stokes
F: Jim Loscutoff
F: Paul Arizin
G: Richie Regan
G: Bob Cousy

1958 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Bob Pettit
F: Dolph Schayes
G: Tom Gola
G: Slater Martin

Second Team
C: Maurice Stokes
F: Paul Arizin
F: Cliff Hagan
G: Bill Sharman
G: Dick McGuire

1959 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Dolph Schayes
F: Tom Gola
G: Bill Sharman
G: Slater Martin

Second Team
C: Red Kerr
F: Bob Pettit
F: Elgin Baylor
G: Jack McMahon
G: Dick McGuire

1960 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Bob Pettit
F: Elgin Baylor
G: Tom Gola
G: Larry Costello

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Dolph Schayes
F: Frank Ramsey
G: Bill Sharman
G: Johnny McCarthy

1961 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Elgin Baylor
F: Tom Gola
G: Hal Greer
G: Larry Costello

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Bob Pettit
F: Rudy LaRusso
G: Johnny McCarthy
G: K.C. Jones

1962 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Rudy LaRusso
F: Tom Sanders
G: Al Attles
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Elgin Baylor
F: Tom Gola
G: Hal Greer
G: Jerry West

1963 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Rudy LaRusso
F: Tom Sanders
G: Al Attles
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Bob Pettit
F: Elgin Baylor
G: Jerry West
G: Lenny Wilkens

1964 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Nate Thurmond
F: Tom Sanders
G: Al Attles
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Bob Pettit
F: Rudy LaRusso
G: Jerry West
G: Oscar Robertson

1965 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Nate Thurmond
F: Tom Sanders
G: Jerry West
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Rudy LaRusso
F: Dave DeBusschere
G: Oscar Robertson
G: Lenny Wilkens

1966 Defensive Player of the Year: Bill Russell
C: Bill Russell
F: Tom Sanders
F: Dave DeBusschere
G: Jerry West
G: K.C. Jones

Second Team
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Luke Jackson
F: John Havlicek
G: Hal Greer
G: Al Attles

1967 Defensive Player of the Year: Wilt Chamberlain
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Luke Jackson
F: Dave DeBusschere
G: Jerry West
G: K.C Jones

Second Team
C: Bill Russell
F: Nate Thurmond
F: John Havlicek
G: Hal Greer
G: Al Attles

1968 Defensive Player of the Year: Wilt Chamberlain
C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Luke Jackson
F: Dave DeBusschere
G: Hal Greer
G: Al Attles

Second Team
C: Bill Russell
F: Rudy LaRusso
F; John Havlicek
G: Jerry Sloan
G: Jerry West

I found this extremely interesting. Thank you for doing the research to compile such a list. Everything I've read suggests Bill Sharman was a great defender. A really tough player.

[crosso√er]

I tend to use brackets for these type of rankings, analyzing each match-up carefully and determining the #1 player; #2 and so forth.

You do 24 brackets (for this type of list, example: top 25 players). If Kobe Bryant is better then Isiah Thomas, and Michael Jordan is better then Kobe Bryant; then Michael Jordan is also better then Isiah Thomas. It's a grueling process but it's probably the most effective way to rank players or anything.

Since you're evaluating match-ups individually, you concentrate your efforts on each particular player further. The scale is reduced and a more accurate evaluation is determined.

I'll try to make my own list, but not promising anything. Don't really have much free time these days.

[nycelt84]

Here's my list
1. Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4.Jerry West
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Bob Cousy
8. John Stockton
9. Jason Kidd
10. Gary Payton
11.Walt Frazier
12. Steve Nash
13. Dwayne Wade
14. Allen Iverson
15.Clyde Drexler
16. George Gervin
17. Hal Greer
18. Ray Allen
19. Nate Archibald
20. Reggie Miller
21. Bill Sharman
22. Sam Jones
23. Joe Dumars
24. Tracy McGrady
25. Chris Paul

[Rose]

The more I think about it, the more I want to put Nash above Glove.

[ThaSwagg3r]

The more I think about it, the more I want to put Nash above Glove.
Nash over Payton was an easy choice for me, kind of. Originally I had Payton, Stockton, and Kidd all over Nash but the more I think about it Nash was better than all of them in his peak and is arguably the greatest the offensive PG of all-time. I don't think Payton and Kidd's championship rings should alter much now that I think about it. They both had "Derek Fisher" roles. It's not like these guys were the best or the second best players on their team. Kidd was probably the 4th or 5th best player on the 2011 Mavericks team while Payton wasn't even the starter on that 06 Heat team.

They both deserve credit for their rings but not as much as I initially thought and not enough to overcome Nash's peak play and his two MVPs.




Fatal9 made a great post and showed a nice statistic of Nash in this post...


IMO Nash is actually a better playmaker. Stockton could get the ball exactly where it needed to go in a set and was just as good a passer. Nash however could do more, he could break down defenses better, hold his dribble alive and circle around your entire defense, was much more creative...I don't think who the better playmaker is arguable either. Nash can do everything Stockton can on offense but it's not true the other way around.

And as you pointed out, Stockton was not on the same level of Nash as a scorer. Nash can get his basically whenever he wants and only really looks to score when the team needs it, but if he cares he can drop 25+ whenever needed provided his shot isn't off. Stockton did not have that ability.

Playoffs:

30+ point games - Nash has 8, Stockton has 2
25+ point games - Nash has 28, Stockton has 7

Stockton has played 182 playoff games, Nash has played only 118.

That's really bad for Stockton considering how much Utah always needed a secondary scorer to step up beside Malone. I would say there's a comfortable gap in their offensive ability/impact. Nash's in/out numbers are ridiculous as well, his value to his teams, particularly the Suns years is easily MVP-worthy.

Even this year, at 37, he led them to a .500+ record when he was in (1-6 without him, 5 of them double digit losses), made them around a top 5 offensive team in the games he played (they have NO business being there when you look at the roster). Nash has also led the best offenses relative to league average in history, it's not a coincidence.



Rk Team Year Ortg AL PG
1. Dallas Mavericks 2004 112.1 9.2 Nash
2. Phoenix Suns 2005 114.5 8.4 Nash
3. Phoenix Suns 2010 115.3 7.7 Nash
4. Chicago Bulls 1997 114.4 7.7
5. Utah Jazz 1998 112.7 7.7 Stockton
6. Dallas Mavericks 2002 112.2 7.7 Nash
7. Chicago Bulls 1996 115.2 7.6
8. Boston Celtics 1988 115.4 7.4
9. Phoenix Suns 2007 113.9 7.4 Nash
10. Denver Nuggets 1982 114.3 7.4
11. Sacramento Kings 2004 110.3 7.4
12. Los Angeles Lakers 1987 115.6 7.3 Magic
13. Chicago Bulls 1992 115.5 7.3
14. Dallas Mavericks 2003 110.7 7.1 Nash
15. Los Angeles Lakers 1998 111.9 6.9



In case people think it's all because of the talent Nash played with...

Suns '04-'07 with Nash: 173-57 (.752)
Suns '04-'07 without Nash: 4-12 (.250)
Suns '04-'07 without Amare: 54-27 (.667)

They had a good replacement in Barbosa to back up Nash as well. We all know where the Suns were the season before Nash got there too. His in/out +/- numbers are nuts. Usually average of +10 when he's in and then a negative rating when he's out. Maybe if I have time I'd check how much the offense of his teams fell off when he was out. Regardless though, people should not doubt his MVP type impact.

And besides, no one ever thought of Stockton in his prime like they thought of Nash. The overrating of Stockton after his retirement is crazy (usually due to lack of perspective on his assist numbers).

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6236840&postcount=35

[iamgine]

The argument against Nash though, was that he only really become "The Steve Nash" exactly after the rule change.

[ThaSwagg3r]

The argument against Nash though, was that he only really become "The Steve Nash" exactly after the rule change.
True, but either way you cannot deny his production. There is no evidence that he wouldn't have been the same with that Suns team. I do feel like that Suns team was just a perfect team constructed for Nash offensively not defensively though. I never thought Nash and Nowitzki meshed well together to be honest with you. I always felt that an athletic big was a better fit for Nash than a finesse jump shooting one.

Even when he was on Dallas he still had all-star appearances and All-NBA selections, but he pretty much became an all-time great as a Phoenix Sun and coincidentally the year he joined the Suns was the year they made the rule change.

[iamgine]

True, but either way you cannot deny his production. There is no evidence that he wouldn't have been the same with that Suns team. I do feel like that Suns team was just a perfect team constructed for Nash offensively not defensively though. I never thought Nash and Nowitzki meshed well together to be honest with you. I always felt that an athletic big was a better fit for Nash than a finesse jump shooting one.
It's not really denying his production. But I thought his penetration moves that wreck the defense would be harder to do under the old rule. Especially because he's not extraordinarily strong or quick like some other guard.


Even when he was on Dallas he still had all-star appearances and All-NBA selections, but he pretty much became an all-time great as a Phoenix Sun and coincidentally the year he joined the Suns was the year they made the rule change.
I think the rule change has at least play a part in his sudden improvement. Well, opinion varies.

[magnax1]

The argument against Nash though, was that he only really become "The Steve Nash" exactly after the rule change.
I don't know how true that is. I think more then anything, he was just under rated before the rule change. He definitely wasn't as good in Dallas, however it wasn't the borderline all star to MVP candidate the Media made it out to be. I think the biggest difference in his level of play wasn't the rule change, but it was that Dantoni just gave him the green light to run the offense the way he wanted, and it really allowed him to flourish in a way he couldn't in Dallas with other players like Dirk Finely, and Van Exel taking up possesions. Not that he had bad team mates in Phoenix, but pretty much all of the 05 team was reliant on him for getting points, and that's basically the way it has been for his career in Phoenix.

[The_Yearning]

Bean Bryant gotta be #2 on everybody's list.

[iamgine]

I don't know how true that is. I think more then anything, he was just under rated before the rule change. He definitely wasn't as good in Dallas, however it wasn't the borderline all star to MVP candidate the Media made it out to be. I think the biggest difference in his level of play wasn't the rule change, but it was that Dantoni just gave him the green light to run the offense the way he wanted, and it really allowed him to flourish in a way he couldn't in Dallas with other players like Dirk Finely, and Van Exel taking up possesions. Not that he had bad team mates in Phoenix, but pretty much all of the 05 team was reliant on him for getting points, and that's basically the way it has been for his career in Phoenix.
Well as I've said, opinion varies. I just thought his usual penetration moves that wreck the defense would be harder to do under the old rule. Especially because he's not extraordinarily strong or quick like some other guard.

[Rose]

I don't know how true that is. I think more then anything, he was just under rated before the rule change. He definitely wasn't as good in Dallas, however it wasn't the borderline all star to MVP candidate the Media made it out to be. I think the biggest difference in his level of play wasn't the rule change, but it was that Dantoni just gave him the green light to run the offense the way he wanted, and it really allowed him to flourish in a way he couldn't in Dallas with other players like Dirk Finely, and Van Exel taking up possesions. Not that he had bad team mates in Phoenix, but pretty much all of the 05 team was reliant on him for getting points, and that's basically the way it has been for his career in Phoenix.
This. And that's why I'm really tempted to flip flop them. I can't wait till we start discussing this stuff though.

[magnax1]

Well as I've said, opinion varies. I just thought his usual penetration moves that wreck the defense would be harder to do under the old rule. Especially because he's not extraordinarily strong or quick like some other guard.
True, but it doesn't really change the fact of how good he is comparatively. I think you could say the same thing of athletic point guards too though. In fact maybe more so, because I don't really remember too many point guards that play the same type of game as Rose, Westbrook, and Harris before the rule change while I can think of quite a few point guards who played a more fundamental game like Nash before the rule change.

[magnax1]

This. And that's why I'm really tempted to flip flop them. I can't wait till we start discussing this stuff though.
Yeah. Honestly I don't like Gary Payton on offense at all. I think he might very well be the least effective player offensively on my list, but I'll type up why later. I'd definitely take issue with Payton being over Nash or Kidd though.

[Rose]

Yeah. Honestly I don't like Gary Payton on offense at all. I think he might very well be the least effective player offensively on my list, but I'll type up why later. I'd definitely take issue with Payton being over Nash or Kidd though.
I dislike Glove.

In fact, the only person I know that likes him, is the fan of him on here. That's seriously it. And I've always felt that yes, he was the best guard defender outside of Jordan, but he was too ballhoggy, and not that great of a passer. And certainly not in the Kidd, Nash realm.

[magnax1]

I dislike Glove.

In fact, the only person I know that likes him, is the fan of him on here. That's seriously it. And I've always felt that yes, he was the best guard defender outside of Jordan, but he was too ballhoggy, and not that great of a passer. And certainly not in the Kidd, Nash realm.
Yeah completely agree. Then it kind of becomes difficult to directly compare offense to defense, but I think his defense really fell of quickly, so it makes it easier for me to rank him below a lot of guys.
And yeah, GP_20 is the only person I know who likes Payton too lol.

[Rose]

Yeah completely agree. Then it kind of becomes difficult to directly compare offense to defense, but I think his defense really fell of quickly, so it makes it easier for me to rank him below a lot of guys.
And yeah, GP_20 is the only person I know who likes Payton too lol.
Personally, I think his whole game fell off rather quickly. But that's just me. Plus being a good defender at the point guard spot doesn't matter really. I mean, I'm not using that as an excuse, for Nash. BUT, if your defense is at least average at the point, you're fine. And I feel Nash's is slightly below average, BUT his offensive brilliance more than makes up for it.

**** it. Nash is better.

[iamgine]

True, but it doesn't really change the fact of how good he is comparatively. I think you could say the same thing of athletic point guards too though. In fact maybe more so, because I don't really remember too many point guards that play the same type of game as Rose, Westbrook, and Harris before the rule change while I can think of quite a few point guards who played a more fundamental game like Nash before the rule change.
Well I certainly wasn't saying that Nash wasn't a good PG before the rule change. Just that the rule change helped him become great, along with some other factors like changing system and teammates. PGs like Stockton or Payton don't really have the luxury of the rule change although we don't know how it would affect them. That's all I'm saying.

[magnax1]

Personally, I think his whole game fell off rather quickly. But that's just me. Plus being a good defender at the point guard spot doesn't matter really. I mean, I'm not using that as an excuse, for Nash. BUT, if your defense is at least average at the point, you're fine. And I feel Nash's is slightly below average, BUT his offensive brilliance more than makes up for it.

**** it. Nash is better.
Well I don't really think he got any worse offensively after 96 or 97, when I think he peaked out overall, but he definitely wasn't better. He just played more minutes and stopped playing such great defense. Maybe a bit more polished, but definitely no better overall.

[magnax1]

Well I certainly wasn't saying that Nash wasn't a good PG before the rule change. Just that the rule change helped him become great, along with some other factors like changing system and teammates. PGs like Stockton or Payton don't really have the luxury of the rule change although we don't know how it would affect them. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, well that's why you just have to compare against the era they played in. I believe Westbrook would not be the same player in 99 as he would today, but I'm not going to hold it against him. It's just a bad idea to try and adjust for eras in my opinion, because in reality nobody has any good clear idea on how a player would change from era to era.

[Rose]

Well I don't really think he got any worse offensively after 96 or 97, when I think he peaked out overall, but he definitely wasn't better. He just played more minutes and stopped playing such great defense. Maybe a bit more polished, but definitely no better overall.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoga01.html Here's my problem.

He basically had a decade of a career. And once he started passing more, he was basically done. And he never shot particularly efficient, especially from the free throw line. His assist/TO ratio is bad.

[magnax1]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoga01.html Here's my problem.

He basically had a decade of a career. And once he started passing more, he was basically done. And he never shot particularly efficient, especially from the free throw line. His assist/TO ratio is bad.
Yeah, I pretty much agree. The amount of times he created for his team mates compared to the amount of time he had the ball was just atrocious. Just not what I want for a point guard at all.

[iamgine]

Yeah, well that's why you just have to compare against the era they played in. I believe Westbrook would not be the same player in 99 as he would today, but I'm not going to hold it against him. It's just a bad idea to try and adjust for eras in my opinion, because in reality nobody has any good clear idea on how a player would change from era to era.
No, I only said that because some said that Nash is better than Payton or Stockton. Like, people would be comparing them side to side. I just merely point out that not everyone has the benefit of a rule change and that the rule change has in fact helped a lot of players greatly although not all of them.

Of course when ranking players we must consider the era they played in. But not for comparing side to side. For example, I think Gilbert Arenas or even JR Smith would own Bob Cousy but Bob is still higher in rank.

[crosso√er]

No, I only said that because some said that Nash is better than Payton or Stockton. Like, people would be comparing them side to side. I just merely point out that not everyone has the benefit of a rule change and that the rule change has in fact helped a lot of players greatly although not all of them.

Of course when ranking players we must consider the era they played in. But not for comparing side to side. For example, I think Gilbert Arenas or even JR Smith would own Bob Cousy but Bob is still higher in rank.

Exactly, I think people who make propositions such as "Russell would be a poor-man (fill in the blank) in today's era" are totally short-sighting their views.

Players in the 50's-60's-70's etc. prepared their body & mind completely differently (just like all of their peers) and for most part were at a big disadvantage then players of today. Sectors were inferior across the board; less advanced equipment, diet was no-where as profound, trainers were not equipped with the tools nor knowledge of today; just like everything, evolution occurs. It's completely ignorant to suggest a guy like LeBron James would be as athletic as he is today back in the 60's; or Dwight Howard.

They would not have the training facilities, diet or personal trainers back in the day that they have now. People so often overlook those tangible benefits. It's only fair to compares players within their own era because it's not only relevant but essential. Just like you can't compare any other industry across decades; technological advances occur not just in basketball but in anything.

Can we compare a manager's performance for Ford from the 60's and state that he was no where near as effective as as a manager today? Of course not, we have to put things in perspective. We have to take into account the change in machinery, processes, plant size, advances in human labor and so forth.

Same applies to basketball. Vince Carter could very easily be no more athletic then George Mikan in the 50's given the limited resources available to him back in the day.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Edited my list a bit.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Jerry West
5.Oscar Robertson
6.Dwyane Wade
7.Steve Nash
8.Clyde Drexler
9.Isiah Thomas
10.Jason Kidd
11.Gary Payton
12.Walt Frazier
13.Allen Iverson
14.John Stockton
15.Bob Cousy
16.Kevin Johnson
17.Tracy McGrady
18.Chris Paul
19.George Gervin
20.Hal Greer
21.Sam Jones
22.Tiny Archibald
23.Tim Hardaway
24.Ray Allen
25.Reggie Miller

I'll explain all of my changes.

Moved Oscar over Wade because Wade's career just seems a bit incomplete. While I do think that Wade will ultimately be remembered for his championship in 2006 and his performance during those playoffs as well as his amazing 2009 season, his 8 year career still revolves a little too much around those 2 seasons. He had a solid rookie season, though not one that ultimately factors into his ranking much. He had a great second season, and was playing like arguably the best player in the playoffs, but he got injured with a 3-2 lead in the ECF. He was playing as well as basically anyone in the NBA in his 4th season, but couldn't really contribute much after the all-star break due to injuries. Wasn't himself in 2008 due to the injuries from the previous season and that season doesn't factor into his rankings. He was a top 2-3 player and arguably the best guard in 2010(I have Kobe over him that year for best guard, but it's debatable). And you could rank him anywhere from the best player to 4th best last year, and he was the best guard, imo.

Another great season or 2, and he's a top 5 guard. If he plays really well and wins another title, then that's enough.

Deron Williams was dropped as well. He's a great player, but he's been in the league 6 seasons, his rookie year was insignificant and he's had some injuries as well.

Same with Tim Hardaway, he was a very good player, but not all that significant historically, so he ends up at 23, just in front of Allen and Miller.

Put Tiny Archibald on the list as well. I do remember watching a Celtics game not long ago from '81-'82 where Bill Russell stated that Tiny didn't like how he played in his 34/11 season, but the numbers are amazing, he was considered one of the best players for a while, and he made the all-nba second team the year he won a title with Boston.

Moved Hal Greer over Sam Jones as well. Seemed that he was a better all around player, and he made a lot more all-nba teams. Plus, looking into those '67 and '68 Sixer seasons, what he did really impressed me.

This list feels a little better to me, I'm still not sure about putting Nash, Drexler or Isiah as high as they are, but after the top 6, the guards aren't as good. I'll keep thinking about this in case I want to make some alterations before Sunday.

[WillC]

Edited my list a bit.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Jerry West
5.Oscar Robertson
6.Dwyane Wade
7.Steve Nash
8.Clyde Drexler
9.Isiah Thomas
10.Jason Kidd
11.Gary Payton
12.Walt Frazier
13.Allen Iverson
14.John Stockton
15.Bob Cousy
16.Kevin Johnson
17.Tracy McGrady
18.Chris Paul
19.George Gervin
20.Hal Greer
21.Sam Jones
22.Tiny Archibald
23.Tim Hardaway
24.Ray Allen
25.Reggie Miller

I'll explain all of my changes.

Moved Oscar over Wade because Wade's career just seems a bit incomplete. While I do think that Wade will ultimately be remembered for his championship in 2006 and his performance during those playoffs as well as his amazing 2009 season, his 8 year career still revolves a little too much around those 2 seasons. He had a solid rookie season, though not one that ultimately factors into his ranking much. He had a great second season, and was playing like arguably the best player in the playoffs, but he got injured with a 3-2 lead in the ECF. He was playing as well as basically anyone in the NBA in his 4th season, but couldn't really contribute much after the all-star break due to injuries. Wasn't himself in 2008 due to the injuries from the previous season and that season doesn't factor into his rankings. He was a top 2-3 player and arguably the best guard in 2010(I have Kobe over him that year for best guard, but it's debatable). And you could rank him anywhere from the best player to 4th best last year, and he was the best guard, imo.

Another great season or 2, and he's a top 5 guard. If he plays really well and wins another title, then that's enough.

Deron Williams was dropped as well. He's a great player, but he's been in the league 6 seasons, his rookie year was insignificant and he's had some injuries as well.

Same with Tim Hardaway, he was a very good player, but not all that significant historically, so he ends up at 23, just in front of Allen and Miller.

Put Tiny Archibald on the list as well. I do remember watching a Celtics game not long ago from '81-'82 where Bill Russell stated that Tiny didn't like how he played in his 34/11 season, but the numbers are amazing, he was considered one of the best players for a while, and he made the all-nba second team the year he won a title with Boston.

Moved Hal Greer over Sam Jones as well. Seemed that he was a better all around player, and he made a lot more all-nba teams. Plus, looking into those '67 and '68 Sixer seasons, what he did really impressed me.

This list feels a little better to me, I'm still not sure about putting Nash, Drexler or Isiah as high as they are, but after the top 6, the guards aren't as good. I'll keep thinking about this in case I want to make some alterations before Sunday.

Can I ask how you justify ranking Kevin Johnson ahead of George Gervin?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Can I ask how you justify ranking Kevin Johnson ahead of George Gervin?

KJ was simply a better player. And he raised his game in the playoffs as well.

These are some of KJ's playoff runs.

1989- 24/4/12, 50 FG%, 62 TS%, 12 games
1990- 21/3/11, 48 FG%, 56 TS%, 16 games
1992- 24/4/12, 48 FG%, 59 TS%, 8 games
1994- 27/4/10, 46 FG%, 54 TS%, 10 games
1995- 25/4/9, 57 FG%, 66 TS%, 10 games

He could take over a game himself at will due to his quickness and mid-range shot, and he could set up his teammates because of his ability to penetrate and pass. Very dangerous in the open court and half court.

Gervin was a great scorer, but that's all he was. He was a pretty one-dimensional player from what I can tell.