kobe>bird

[Nick Young]

5 rings>4 rings nuff said

[greensborohill]

5 rings>4 rings nuff said


Pippen > Kobe

Nuff said

[Papaya Petee]

3 MVP's > 1 MVP

nuff said.

[Kblaze8855]

Bird has 3 rings...

[rodman91]

No robert horry reference yet?

[Vienceslav]

There was a multiple page thread on this not too long ago and we basically agreed that we disagree and moved on i think.
Let the hilarity ensue.

[rodman91]

Larry Bird has better stats,more MVPs,tied as FMVPs.2 more rings as sidekick can't beat that career.

[Droid101]

3 MVP's > 1 MVP

nuff said.
LOL

Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups, and Tony Parker have finals MVP's. They are worthless and mean jack-and-shit.

[Miller for 3]

LOL

Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups, and Tony Parker have finals MVP's. They are worthless and mean jack-and-shit.

k. they dont have regular season MVPs though genius, which is what he was referring to

[The-Legend-24]

I agree with the OP. :applause:

[ThaSwagg3r]

In a 1 on 1 game I would say Kobe would mop the floor with Bird.

However basketball is a 5 on 5 game and Bird played 5 on 5 basketball better than almost all but around 4-5 players to ever play the game.

Give Bird 4 random players to work with and then give Kobe 4 random players to work with. I could almost guarantee you that Bird's team would win the majority of the time.

[TheLogo]

In a 1 on 1 game I would say Kobe would mop the floor with Bird.

However basketball is a 5 on 5 game and Bird played 5 on 5 basketball better than almost all but around 4-5 players to ever play the game.

Give Bird 4 random players to work with and then give Kobe 4 random players to work with. I could almost guarantee you that Bird's team would win the majority of the time.

failure.

If Kobe can't mop the floor with Bird, like you said, and you give them random teammates....I don't see how Bird would still win.

Scrubs and random teammates would both cancel each other out...Kobe will mop the floor with Bird.

[ThaSwagg3r]

failure.

If Kobe can't mop the floor with Bird, like you said, and you give them random teammates....I don't see how Bird would still win.

Scrubs and random teammates would both cancel each other out...Kobe will mop the floor with Bird.
Because Bird would make his scrubs and random teammates better because that was how he played. Kobe also had the capability of making teammates better but certainly not as much and not as well as Bird did.

Bird could impact the game in more ways than Kobe could.

[Joey Zaza]

25.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg on 45%
24.3ppg, 10rpg, 6.3apg on 50%

Give me the guy with less bds, less assts, and worse shooting everytime. I mean how often do you find a guy with 25-5-5...its pretty darn rare in this league.

[TheLogo]

Because Bird would make his scrubs and random teammates better because that was how he played. Kobe also had the capability of making teammates better but certainly not as much and not as well as Bird did.

Bird could impact the game in more ways than Kobe could.

Bird would probably play dirty and start diving on people's ankles and knees.

[ThaSwagg3r]

25.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg on 45%
24.3ppg, 10rpg, 6.3apg on 50%

Give me the guy with less bds, less assts, and worse shooting everytime. I mean how often do you find a guy with 25-5-5...its pretty darn rare in this league.
I like how facetious you are.

[rodman91]

25.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg on 45%
24.3ppg, 10rpg, 6.3apg on 50%

Give me the guy with less bds, less assts, and worse shooting everytime. I mean how often do you find a guy with 25-5-5...its pretty darn rare in this league.
http://data.whicdn.com/images/10847836/see-what-you-did-there-13_large.jpg

[TheLogo]

25.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg on 45%
24.3ppg, 10rpg, 6.3apg on 50%

Give me the guy with less bds, less assts, and worse shooting everytime. I mean how often do you find a guy with 25-5-5...its pretty darn rare in this league.

I agree.

I would still take Kobe because he has the intangibles.

He has hit more game winners and played more shutdown defense than Bird.

[gengiskhan]

25.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg on 45%
24.3ppg, 10rpg, 6.3apg on 50%

Give me the guy with less bds, less assts, and worse shooting everytime. I mean how often do you find a guy with 25-5-5...its pretty darn rare in this league.

This.

Bird will butt rape the Rapist easily

I mean come on

3 back-2-back-2-back MVPs over Top 5 GOAT MAGIC

vs

1 consolidation MVP in 15 seasons.

3 rings as "Da Man" in Stacked Golden NBA Era of '80s

vs

2 rings.

Bird Top 5 GOAT & best SF Evvaaa easily.

"overrated" Kobe aint fit enough to lick Larry Legend's sneakers.

[Jan95]

http://troll.me/images/ronald-mcdonald-call/hello-*******-police-who-the-fck-keeps-releasing-the-op.jpg

[Big164]

If Larry bird had prime shaq for 8 years he'd win no less than 6 rings.

Shaq is basically a bigger more devastating versiOn of Kevin mchale. Larry never envied his team mates and would never sabotage an NBA finals to get someone traded. Ballhogging on 38% shooting Against the 04 pistons would never happen.

There are only 3 players in history I'd choose over bird, mr 38% is not one of them.

[bizil]

For me the top 4 perimeter players of all time are MJ, Kobe, Magic, and Bird. MJ and Kobe have the great D and athletic ability that seperates them from Magic and Bird. But Magic is a better rebounder, passer, and can play 4-5 positions. Bird is a better shooter, rebounder, and many feel a better passer. So as a player and career resume, I'm taking Kobe over Bird at this point. But if one were to say Bird, I wouldn't argue too hard.

[Joey Zaza]

For me the top 4 perimeter players of all time are MJ, Kobe, Magic, and Bird. MJ and Kobe have the great D and athletic ability that seperates them from Magic and Bird. But Magic is a better rebounder, passer, and can play 4-5 positions. Bird is a better shooter, rebounder, and many feel a better passer. So as a player and career resume, I'm taking Kobe over Bird at this point. But if one were to say Bird, I wouldn't argue too hard.

its just so easy to gobb on Kobe knob, isn't it. Well, Kobe's a great perimeter player like Bird. But he D's it better so Kobe

He did nothing as well as Bird did it. 0. Took a ton more shots to score 1 more ppg, he didn't pass like Bird, he couldn't shoot like Bird, he couldn't board like Bird. But somehoe, he did it great like Bird.

...and this Kobe D dream that everyone has. This BS when he wants to he shuts down the other team's best player. He doesn't, he didn't, he hasn't. Its a dream - based on every now and then Kobe meeting a guy at half-court and fouling him while trying to look tough. He's not that player...and he never took a turn on Nash, Duncan, Kidd, KG, Shaq, Dirk, Amare, Melo, Deron, CP3, AI or really any of the best players of Kobe's generation.

His 1.5 spg tell the exact story of kobe's d. Its pretty average.

[Droid101]

His 1.5 spg tell the exact story of kobe's d. Its pretty average.
I guess Allen Iverson is the best defender in history then.
:facepalm

This ****ing clown. How is he not banned?

[Joey Zaza]

I guess Allen Iverson is the best defender in history then.


Defensive stats do not tell the story of defense -- but in Kobe's case, 1.5 spg represents his level of defense. He is good. He can make a play, but he's not a beast or a demon. He's not Tony Allen or Bruce Bowen. For an offensive player, he's good.


This ****ing clown. How is he not banned?

Rule No.1 of Kobe fan-dom any dissent as to Kobe's greatness is met with personal insults.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Defensive stats do not tell the story of defense -- but in Kobe's case, 1.5 spg represents his level of defense. He is good. He can make a play, but he's not a beast or a demon. He's not Tony Allen or Bruce Bowen. For an offensive player, he's good.

He was back when he was Frobe in the early 2000s. Kobe still played great defense from 06-09. The 2009-2010 season was when Kobe officially stopped playing defense and when he couldn't play defense anymore.

[Joey Zaza]

He was back when he was Frobe in the early 2000s. Kobe still played great defense from 06-09. The 2009-2010 season was when Kobe officially stopped playing defense and when he couldn't play defense anymore.

If you say so - I never saw "great" defense. Offensive players seldom play "great" defense except when they are iso'd against and the world is watching them. The away from the ball, ball denial, battling for position--is not really an offensive player focus...then again fans doon't watch that either, so maybe Kobe did that great. Maybe Bird did that great too.

[Round Mound]

:facepalm Bird was so much better than Bryant its not even funny

End this thread

[bizil]

its just so easy to gobb on Kobe knob, isn't it. Well, Kobe's a great perimeter player like Bird. But he D's it better so Kobe

He did nothing as well as Bird did it. 0. Took a ton more shots to score 1 more ppg, he didn't pass like Bird, he couldn't shoot like Bird, he couldn't board like Bird. But somehoe, he did it great like Bird.

...and this Kobe D dream that everyone has. This BS when he wants to he shuts down the other team's best player. He doesn't, he didn't, he hasn't. Its a dream - based on every now and then Kobe meeting a guy at half-court and fouling him while trying to look tough. He's not that player...and he never took a turn on Nash, Duncan, Kidd, KG, Shaq, Dirk, Amare, Melo, Deron, CP3, AI or really any of the best players of Kobe's generation.

His 1.5 spg tell the exact story of kobe's d. Its pretty average.

U r insane! It's a FACT that Kobe was an elite perimeter defender. He SMOKES Bird as a one on one defender. Kobe had lockdown ability when it came to defense. I'm not saying he's better than MJ, Cooper, Bowen, Moncrief, or guys like that. But I feel Kobe was still an elite, All League defender who could defend three positons.

As far as rebounding, Bird was an SF at 6'9 230 pounds who played a lot of PF. So that's to be expected. Passing u can say Bird. But Kobe is a guy who has the vision and handles to be a great passer. Kobe can set his guys up better than Bird can off the dribble. Kobe is more than capable of playing PG. Even though Bird has point forward skills, I wouldn't play Bird at point.

As far as shooting, Bird has more range on his shot. But he's NOT a better midrange shooter than Kobe or MJ. If you are talking pure midrange shooting, Kobe, MJ, and the Iceman are guys who take a backseat to NOBODY! Bird belongs in that group has an all time great midrange shooter too. Hell Bird could be the best shooter of all time. But Bird IS NOT a better midrange shooter than Kobe. If anything you slob on Bird's knob! I'm just keeping it real and Kobe is the closest thing to MJ. MJ is better than Bird. And Kobe is close enough to MJ. So Kobe is better than Bird too. But Bird isn't far off in my book either. But MJ and Kobe can do ANYTHING Bird can do pound for pound except prolific three point shooting. And when they get hot, they can kill u from three point range.

Bird can't touch Kobe's defensive capabilities or athletic ability. Kobe's mix of skills and athletic ability enable him to do shit Bird could only dream of. Most guys with those set of skills DIDN'T have that kind of freak athletic ability. MJ was the guy to combine the two and guys like Kobe, Wade, and T Mac followed suit.

[rodman91]

Afro Kobe's one on one defense was good.But nothing special to make a case for him over Bird.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Defensive stats do not tell the story of defense -- but in Kobe's case, 1.5 spg represents his level of defense. He is good. He can make a play, but he's not a beast or a demon. He's not Tony Allen or Bruce Bowen. For an offensive player, he's good.


Why are referencing spg when mentioning Bowen? He didn't get tons of steals or blocks but was a prolific defender. Monta Ellis gets lots of steals but mostly because he is out of position. More times than not he gets burned on D.

[bizil]

I see some posters on here are dissing Kobe's defense. I'm not saying he's Pip, MJ, Moncrief, Bowen, or Cooper. But Kobe was CLEARLY one of the elite perimeter defenders in the NBA. Bird was a great help defender and even made some All D teams. But he's not on Kobe's level in terms of defense. And YES it's enough to give him the edge on Bird. If a player has the ability to get 35 a night on you AND shut you down or make u work harder for offense then of course it makes a difference. It's one of the key factors that gave MJ the edge over Magic and Bird back in the day.

[Joey Zaza]

If anything you slob on Bird's knob! I'm just keeping it real and Kobe is the closest thing to MJ. MJ is better than Bird. And Kobe is close enough to MJ. So Kobe is better than Bird too. But Bird isn't far off in my book either. But MJ and Kobe can do ANYTHING Bird can do pound for pound except prolific three point shooting. And when they get hot, they can kill u from three point range.

Bizil's whole post summed up here. Follow MJ > Bird. Kobe is close to MJ (except for being worse than him in every conceivable facet of the game) so therefore, even though their prodcution and every objective measure tells a different story, Kobe > Bird.

That, right there, is the source of all Kobe logic. Kobe is like MJ, MJ is great so Kobe is great. What's lost in translation is that while Kobe does so much like MJ, he does nothing NOTHING as well as MJ. Not even close. He's a poor fascimilie.

Kobe:
25.3 5.3 4.7 .450 w/ 1.5 spg

MJ
30.1 6.2 5.3 .497 w/ 2.3spg

Kobe had 3 great scoring seasons - MJ's AVERAGE is equal to one of them. MJ had 12 seasons scoring better than Kobe's average...and we haven't even had his decline, yet.

[brownmamba00]

Bird was a weak man-to-man defender. Stop acting like he was legendary on D or some shit.

His passing,rebounding ability and tough leadership is what made him special.

[andgar923]

5 rings>4 rings nuff said
:lol :lol :lol

[Joey Zaza]

Why are referencing spg when mentioning Bowen? He didn't get tons of steals or blocks but was a prolific defender. Monta Ellis gets lots of steals but mostly because he is out of position. More times than not he gets burned on D.

Well, Kobe > Bird based on defense, I am giving examples of perimeter guys whose defense made a difference and by comparison, Kobe's didn't.

Statistically, Monta is alot like Kobe w/ more stls. Thank you for the comparison

[bizil]

Why are referencing spg when mentioning Bowen? He didn't get tons of steals or blocks but was a prolific defender. Monta Ellis gets lots of steals but mostly because he is out of position. More times than not he gets burned on D.

Great point! Steals can be misleading. A guy like Bowen plays EPIC position D. Steals involve gambling and many great steals guys were ALSO great defenders. Like MJ and Alvin Robertson. Or even Hakeem for big guys. But u have many great defenders who are known for keeping their man in front of them. And taking away certain go to moves. That is more valuable than a guy who JUST simply gambles for steals.

[Joey Zaza]

And YES it's enough to give him the edge on Bird. If a player has the ability to get 35 a night on you AND shut you down or make u work harder for offense then of course it makes a difference.

Kobe avged 35 a night ONCE in his career. He averaged over 30 a grand total of 3 times.

..and who did he ever shut down. I've never seen a guy get shut down by Kobe. didn't "shut down" rip or AI, never shut down Nash, Francis ran wild all over him for a series.

who did this shut down happen to?

[catch24]

Kobe avged 35 a night ONCE in his career. He averaged over 30 a grand total of 3 times.

..and who did he ever shut down. I've never seen a guy get shut down by Kobe. didn't "shut down" rip or AI, never shut down Nash, Francis ran wild all over him for a series.

who did this shut down happen to?

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Kobe shuts down Iverson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY)

Educate yourself.

[TheLogo]

Kobe avged 35 a night ONCE in his career. He averaged over 30 a grand total of 3 times.

..and who did he ever shut down. I've never seen a guy get shut down by Kobe. didn't "shut down" rip or AI, never shut down Nash, Francis ran wild all over him for a series.

who did this shut down happen to?

The term "shutdown" refers to a stretch of the game or perhaps near the end of a game when a player needs to be stopped.

In today's league no one player can shutdown the other. Impossible considering how good these guys are and the intricate zone schemes.

[Joey Zaza]

The term "shutdown" refers to a stretch of the game or perhaps near the end of a game when a player needs to be stopped.

In today's league no one player can shutdown the other. Impossible considering how good these guys are and the intricate zone schemes.

Talk to Bizil - Kobe shut down so many people playing so many positions that he made up for his extreme offensive deficiencies as compared to Bird.

[Joey Zaza]

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Kobe shuts down Iverson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY)

Educate yourself.

His defensive mastery over AI was so great they put Ty. Lue on him.

Ty. Lue > Bird.

[TheLogo]

Talk to Bizil - Kobe shut down so many people playing so many positions that he made up for his extreme offensive deficiencies as compared to Bird.

extreme offensive deficiencies?

Kobe has the most offensive weapons in his arsenal than anyone I can remember.

[catch24]

His defensive mastery over AI was so great they put Ty. Lue on him.

Ty. Lue > Bird.

You claimed you've never seen Kobe shut down guys like Iverson, right? Well, the footage I just posted doesn't lie. Iverson was rendered to 7 of 25 shooting which includes his GW shot attempt being blocked by, you guessed it, Kobe Bryant.

Shut-down.

[Joey Zaza]

extreme offensive deficiencies?

Kobe has the most offensive weapons in his arsenal than anyone I can remember.

Except Bird did it better.

[Joey Zaza]

You claimed you've never seen Kobe shut down guys like Iverson, right? Well, the footage I just posted doesn't lie. Iverson was rendered to 7 of 25 shooting which includes his GW shot attempt being blocked by, you guessed it, Kobe Bryant.

Shut-down.

True and true. I'll take my lumps.

Despite shooting worse, getting less bds and less assts, the 5 blks on AI in a regular season game from 13 years ago truly mean that Kobe > Bird.

[TheLogo]

Except Bird did it better.



I know you must be lonely and want to start debating to kill time but any true basketball fan will tell you that Kobe is better than Bird.

People actually forget about Bird in GOAT discussions because he's not that good compared to guys coming up or taking the spot....like a Duncan or a Kobe.

The 80's era was an era of inflated stats and Bird was a media darling. A sport that was dominated by black players and you have this one white guy. He is truly where he's at because of his skin color.

[NugzHeat3]

So LeBron didn't shut down Derrick Rose? :roll:
He didn't. Don't be delulded by the 6% ESPN was shoving down your throat.

Rose was able to blow by LeBron off the dribble but the HEAT sent several defenders in the paint to alter his shot. He was also trapped off the P&R to make him give the ball up.

Think about it. Do you really think LeBron with all the added weight could stay in front of a blur like Rose? He doesn't have the foot speed to do so.

James played great defense but he didn't shut him down single handedly. Team effort.

[catch24]

True and true. I'll take my lumps.

Despite shooting worse, getting less bds and less assts, the 5 blks on AI in a regular season game from 13 years ago truly mean that Kobe > Bird.

Anyone that has an ounce of basketball perspective would rank Bird over Kobe. I was only addressing your 'never seen Kobe do this' claim.

[TheLogo]

The truth of the matter is, when Kobe is being compared to other greats, they are usually MJ, Magic, Duncan or Shaq.

Nobody compares Kobe to Bird because Bird is an afterthought. People know Kobe is better than Bird.

Only Kobe haters and Boston homers would say otherwise.

[rodman91]

You claimed you've never seen Kobe shut down guys like Iverson, right? Well, the footage I just posted doesn't lie. Iverson was rendered to 7 of 25 shooting which includes his GW shot attempt being blocked by, you guessed it, Kobe Bryant.

Shut-down.
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3937/2001lol.jpg

Iverson usually raped Kobe & teammates over years but he was unguardable in those years..still Kobe wasn't that great defender to put him over Bird as overall player.

[Droid101]

The truth of the matter is, when Kobe is being compared to other greats, they are usually MJ, Magic, Duncan or Shaq.

Nobody compares Kobe to Bird because Bird is an afterthought. People know Kobe is better than Bird.

Only Kobe haters and Boston homers would say otherwise.
I think even Bill Simmons ranks Kobe ahead of Bird these days, and he's the worst Bird homer of all time.

[NugzHeat3]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3937/2001lol.jpg
That's the only time Iverson ever had a big game against Kobe.

The game catch24 posted, the game @ LA from the 2001 season, the game where AI had 49 points in 3 quarters and only 2 in the 4th were games where Kobe flatout shut him down.

[catch24]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3937/2001lol.jpg

Remind me who won that series again? Iverson wasn't even defending Kobe anyway :oldlol:

If you read the post I was quoting, you'd understand I wasn't downplaying Iverson. Dude said he never saw Kobe shut down players like Iverson so I gave him the footage he was looking for.

[TheLogo]

I think even Bill Simmons ranks Kobe ahead of Bird these days, and he's the worst Bird homer of all time.

/thread.

I believe he does now.

[rodman91]

[QUOTE=rodman91]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3937/2001lol.jpg[/QUOTE

Remind me who won that series again? Iverson wasn't even defending Kobe anyway :oldlol:

Lakers won series.It doesn't mean Kobe defend Iverson well.Plus,it would be delusional to expect 6'0 player to guard 6'6 in a series...

[catch24]

Sh-sh-sh-sh-shuh-shuh-shut d-d-d-d-down!!!!!!!:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

He didn't shut anyone down. Are you his yes-man?

[brownmamba00]

Iverson usually raped Kobe & teammates over years but he was unguardable in those years..still Kobe wasn't that great defender to put him over Bird as overall player.
:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Anyone that has an ounce of basketball perspective would rank Bird over Kobe. I was only addressing your 'never seen Kobe do this' claim.

I have Bird over Kobe, but I don't understand this notion. Why?

Wouldn't it depend heavily on your criteria? How much does longevity play a factor? How much do stats play a factor?...etc.

There are certainly some criteria that could lead to Kobe being ranked over Bird. I do personally think there was a gap, but not this huge one that means anyone saying Kobe was better is a moron.

I don't see that.

[catch24]

Iverson usually raped Kobe & teammates over years but he was unguardable in those years..still Kobe wasn't that great defender to put him over Bird as overall player.

He wasn't "raping" anyone. Especially not with his sub ~ 30% shooting vs the Lakers :oldlol:

Get real.

[NugzHeat3]

Derek Fisher shut down Iverson in game 2 and dunked on his face, I might add.

Real unguardable with that 40% shooting. :rolleyes:

[bizil]

Bizil's whole post summed up here. Follow MJ > Bird. Kobe is close to MJ (except for being worse than him in every conceivable facet of the game) so therefore, even though their prodcution and every objective measure tells a different story, Kobe > Bird.

That, right there, is the source of all Kobe logic. Kobe is like MJ, MJ is great so Kobe is great. What's lost in translation is that while Kobe does so much like MJ, he does nothing NOTHING as well as MJ. Not even close. He's a poor fascimilie.

Kobe:
25.3 5.3 4.7 .450 w/ 1.5 spg

MJ
30.1 6.2 5.3 .497 w/ 2.3spg

Kobe had 3 great scoring seasons - MJ's AVERAGE is equal to one of them. MJ had 12 seasons scoring better than Kobe's average...and we haven't even had his decline, yet.

Wow u are for real on Bird's dick! LMBAO! Kobe is close enough to MJ's level for me to pick Kobe over Bird. Even when looking at criteria for a GOAT list, which includes talent, numbers, team accolades, solo accolads, and longevity being great, Kobe in my mind has passed Bird by. Many people don't wanna accept that fact, but it's time to consider Kobe being ranked past Bird on a GOAT list. It can go either way, but hell Kobe as five rings, two finals MVPs, a gold medal, almost 28,000 points, numerous All Star, All NBA, and All Defensive teams, an MVP and 4 All Star Game MVP's.

What's saving Magic still from Kobe taking him over as of now on a GOAT list is how he totally changed the PG position and those five rings. As unique as Bird was, Magic was even more unique. Arguably the most unique player of all time. Bird was very versatile, but Magic has played all five positions in a game. And Magic had arguably the greatest game of all time when he did it. Getting those 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists to win the title as a rookie. And replacing at the time (and arguably still) the greatest player of all time in Kareem.

[catch24]

I have Bird over Kobe, but I don't understand this notion. Why?

Wouldn't it depend heavily on your criteria? How much does longevity play a factor? How much do stats play a factor?...etc.

There are certainly some criteria that could lead to Kobe being ranked over Bird. I do personally think there was a gap, but not this huge one that means anyone saying Kobe was better is a moron.

I don't see that.

As players you can argue who's skillset or other different intangibles were better, but on an all-time list? For their careers? It's definitely Bird.

I personally feel Bird was a more dominant and well-rounded player too.

[TheLogo]

the only thing I will compare Kobe to Bird is this and that's it.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ51a5AbJi0

[pauk]

Havlicek > everybody

8 rings

[bizil]

I have Bird over Kobe, but I don't understand this notion. Why?

Wouldn't it depend heavily on your criteria? How much does longevity play a factor? How much do stats play a factor?...etc.

There are certainly some criteria that could lead to Kobe being ranked over Bird. I do personally think there was a gap, but not this huge one that means anyone saying Kobe was better is a moron.

I don't see that.

Well said! I wouldn't think anybody would be a moron to think Bird over Kobe and vice versa. Me personally, the defensive side of the ball has me leaning to Kobe. Offensively I group guys as far as if they are a true Batman and then work my way down. No question Bird and Kobe are epic and clutch as Batman. Both are very versatile and can stuff the stat sheet. Bird's career statline of 24 pts, 10 boards, and 6 dimes could be the greatest stat line in terms of the big three stats ever. But at the end of the day give me Kobe. On certain teams, Bird could be the better fit though.

[DMAVS41]

As players you can argue who's skillset or other different intangibles were better, but on an all-time list? For their careers? It's definitely Bird.

I personally feel Bird was a more dominant and well-rounded player too.

And wouldn't that be dependent on a number of things and your specific criteria?

Couldn't you understand someone valuing longevity and titles heavily ranking Kobe ahead of Bird when its all done?

[The Iron Fist]

In a 1 on 1 game I would say Kobe would mop the floor with Bird.

However basketball is a 5 on 5 game and Bird played 5 on 5 basketball better than almost all but around 4-5 players to ever play the game.

Give Bird 4 random players to work with and then give Kobe 4 random players to work with. I could almost guarantee you that Bird's team would win the majority of the time.
Heres 4 random players Bird played with

Robert Parrish HOF
Kevin McHale HOF
Dennis Johnson HOF
Bill Walton HOF

Heres 4 random players Kobe played with
Chris Mihm
Kwame Brown
Smush Parker
Shaquille Oneal

[catch24]

To add onto that, DMAVS41 - I don't think people are "morons" for ranking Kobe>Bird all-time. I do think they're knowledge of Bird's career is suspect though. More often than not, the people that do rank Kobe ahead of Bird are trolls and/or have limited perspective.

[Round Mound]

U r insane! It's a FACT that Kobe was an elite perimeter defender. He SMOKES Bird as a one on one defender. Kobe had lockdown ability when it came to defense. I'm not saying he's better than MJ, Cooper, Bowen, Moncrief, or guys like that. But I feel Kobe was still an elite, All League defender who could defend three positons.

As far as rebounding, Bird was an SF at 6'9 230 pounds who played a lot of PF. So that's to be expected. Passing u can say Bird. But Kobe is a guy who has the vision and handles to be a great passer. Kobe can set his guys up better than Bird can off the dribble. Kobe is more than capable of playing PG. Even though Bird has point forward skills, I wouldn't play Bird at point.

As far as shooting, Bird has more range on his shot. But he's NOT a better midrange shooter than Kobe or MJ. If you are talking pure midrange shooting, Kobe, MJ, and the Iceman are guys who take a backseat to NOBODY! Bird belongs in that group has an all time great midrange shooter too. Hell Bird could be the best shooter of all time. But Bird IS NOT a better midrange shooter than Kobe. If anything you slob on Bird's knob! I'm just keeping it real and Kobe is the closest thing to MJ. MJ is better than Bird. And Kobe is close enough to MJ. So Kobe is better than Bird too. But Bird isn't far off in my book either. But MJ and Kobe can do ANYTHING Bird can do pound for pound except prolific three point shooting. And when they get hot, they can kill u from three point range.

Bird can't touch Kobe's defensive capabilities or athletic ability. Kobe's mix of skills and athletic ability enable him to do shit Bird could only dream of. Most guys with those set of skills DIDN'T have that kind of freak athletic ability. MJ was the guy to combine the two and guys like Kobe, Wade, and T Mac followed suit.

Bryant can`t Play the Team Defense like Bird
Bryant can`t Pass or Create like Bird
Bryan`t cant Rebound like Bird
As far as Post Game and Mid Range Game: They had to put CFs, PFs and SFs quicker and taller or heavier and still he would fadeway and it was inn
As Far as Pure Shooting Bird was Better than Both Too

Bird is a Better Player than Bryant.

Bird is also a Better Team Player than MJ

[NugzHeat3]

If Kobe can play a couple of years at a high level, then longevity can definitely tilt the comparison in Kobe's favor.

But that's for the people who pay heavy emphasis on longevity. Peak and prime play will always favor Bird.

[Round Mound]

Heres 4 random players Bird played with

Robert Parrish HOF
Kevin McHale HOF
Dennis Johnson HOF
Bill Walton HOF

Heres 4 random players Kobe played with
Chris Mihm
Kwame Brown
Smush Parker
Shaquille Oneal

Don`t Forget to Mention The Team`s Bird Faced in the Difficult 80s.

Don`t forget about Cedric Ceballos, Robert Horry, Byron Scott, Nick Van Exel, Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone etc that played with Kobe as a 2nd Fiddle To Shaq

Don`t forget to mention Gasol : a Future HOF, Bynum and Odom: Best Sixth Man: And a Consistant Big 3 with Bryant at SG.

Kobe`s Career is served with playing with Great Role Players and Future HOFs in a Weak Era of Team vs Team ofcourse

[rodman91]

He wasn't "raping" anyone. Especially not with his sub ~ 30% shooting vs the Lakers :oldlol:

Get real.

He averaged over 35 ppg per game vs Lakers in finals.

Also had many 30 & 40 points games against Lakers..and 51 point game as well.

Anyway, It's Bird vs Kobe thread.

[bizil]

Havlicek > everybody

8 rings

Hondo was a stud! Awesome all around player who I feel was the GOAT among SF's until Doc and Bird came along. Some would argue he's still the 2nd SF for a GOAT list. But he's no lower than 3rd or 4th even as of now. In terms of the better player, I think Bird and Kobe are better. But it takes that level of player to be ranked over a Hondo. In terms of ability or a GOAT list.

Many posters have stated correctly that different criteria determines what player to give the edge to. You have a GOAT list which factors talent, solo accolades, team accolades, longevity being great, and numbers. Then u have a list in terms of who is the best player in terms of just talent and peak value. Two different criteria. For example, I would take TMac over every two guard except MJ and Kobe in terms of talent and peak value. But on a GOAT list for SG's, T Mac wouldn't be in the top ten. He would be I'm sure in the top 15-20 though.

[pauk]

Bird is a Better Player than Bryant.

Bird is also a Better Team Player than MJ

Who would disagree with that?

Kobe might had better man to man defense tho.... but Bird could do EVERYTHING else better.... literally everything... just name it...

scoring - scoring arsenal (unfortunately he was not selfish / shotjacker so we couldnt see him taking almost 50 FieldGoal attempts in a game like Kobe did)

passing
court vision
rebounding
teamplay
basketball iq
offensive versatility
defensive versatility
clutchness
intangibles
fundamentals
post game
3pt shooting
midrange
ft shooting
efficiency
leadership

jesus... just name anything... he was better at it...

LARRY BIRD WAS EASILY ONE OF THE MOST COMPLETE PLAYERS IN NBA HISTORY (IF NOT THE MOST COMPLETE)..... HE COULD DO EVERYTHING WITH THE BEST OF THEM.......

[catch24]

And wouldn't that be dependent on a number of things and your specific criteria?

Couldn't you understand someone valuing longevity and titles heavily ranking Kobe ahead of Bird when its all done?

If Kobe were to retire today, I'd be prone to rank him below Bird. Some people may value titles and other various intangibles differently than me, but from what I've seen from their games and the information I've gathered, I just can't fathom how Kobe would be ahead of Bird (even WITH the differences I just spoke of). Bird was more dominant (evident by his MVPs and playoff performances), lead three teams to championships against some of the GREATEST teams ever assembled, was more clutch, had less blemishes in his career (be it in do-or-die situations or flat-out just playing inconsistent basketball), etc. I can go on, but you get the picture.

I just don't see it - so no, I couldn't understand.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Who would disagree with that?

Kobe might had better man to man defense tho.... but Bird could do EVERYTHING else better.... literally everything... just name it...
Kobe was a better scorer than Bird was especially if we are talking prime/peak years.

[catch24]

He averaged over 35 ppg per game vs Lakers in finals.



And shot 40%, missing 20+ shots a game.

[Droid101]

LARRY BIRD WAS EASILY ONE OF THE MOST COMPLETE PLAYERS IN NBA HISTORY..... HE COULD DO EVERYTHING WITH THE BEST OF THEM.......
Answer me this then.

If a player came in the league next year, joined the worst team (say, Timberwolves), turned them into a 66 win team, wins the championship, and averages 39ppg, 7apg, 8rpg, 2stl, 2blk, 50% shooting over the season and playoffs, then retires the following year.

Is he the best ever?

[DMAVS41]

If Kobe were to retire today, I'd be prone to rank him below Bird. Some people may value titles and other various intangibles differently than me, but from what I've seen from their games and the information I've gathered, I just can't fathom how Kobe would be ahead of Bird (even WITH the differences I just spoke of). Bird was more dominant (evident by his MVPs and playoff performances), lead three teams to championships against some of the GREATEST teams ever assembled, was more clutch, had less blemishes in his career (be it in do-or-die situations or flat-out just playing inconsistent basketball), etc. I can go on, but you get the picture.

I just don't see it - so no, I couldn't understand.

I agree with Bird over Kobe, but you acted like its absurd to rank Kobe over Bird all time. It really isn't.....depending on what criteria is used.

Agree to disagree.

[The Iron Fist]

Don`t forget to mention The Team`s Bird Faced in the difficult 80s.

Don`t forget about Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone etc that played with Kobe as a 2nd Fiddle To Shaq

Don`t forget to mention Gasol : a Future HOF, Bynum and Odom: Best Sixth Man: A Big 3.


Who Bird faced isn't the issue. The point is, he played with 4 other HOFers, on the same team, at the same time, while in his prime.

Kobe played with Payton (35), Rice (31,32) and Malone (40) while they were at the ass end of their careers. The only Celtic comparable to that, is Walton. Leave him off, and there are still 3 HOF players, with Bird, in their primes. Parish, from 27 to 32. McHale, 23-28. Johnson, 26-13. So please, don't come at me with that corny ass argument about Rice, Payton and Malone when each one was past their best years and Bird had his teammates in their absolute primes.



Its funny how when people downplay Kobe, its because, "he played on a stacked team and thats the only reason he won any title".

Yet, somehow, Bird and Magic get a pass for playing on truly stacked teams. Their all time ranking never suffers one bit either. I love the hypocrisy.


So, with that, eat a turd.

[bizil]

To add onto that, DMAVS41 - I don't think people are "morons" for ranking Kobe>Bird all-time. I do think they're knowledge of Bird's career is lacking though. More often than not, the people that do rank Kobe ahead of Bird are trolls and/or have limited perspective.

I know about Bird's career. A lifelong hoops fan that was reading Basketball Digest at age 8 when the other kids were reading little kids books. And for me I go with Kobe. That doesn't mean I don't know about Bird's career. Kobe can dominate both sides of the ball in a manner Bird can't. And on a GOAT list, Bryant has already arguably passed Bird by. You can't deny Kobe's accomplishments. But if someone said Bird I can dig it and WON'T doubt their knowledge. Unless they say some dumb shit.

[catch24]

I agree with Bird over Kobe, but you acted like its absurd to rank Kobe over Bird all time. It really isn't.....depending on what criteria is used.

Agree to disagree.

Right now I do think it would be kind of absurd. So because Kobe has 2 more titles and "better defense" (defense that he hasn't played in how many years now?), people want to rank him ahead of the greatest SF ever?

Doesn't make any sense to me, dude.

[rodman91]

And shot 40%, missing 20+ shots a game.

Same like Kobe's overall finals.:oldlol:

If a guy puts more than 35 ppg on finals, rest is just making excuses.

[bizil]

T-Mac had more raw talent than Kobe.

U can say that! But that's because Mac had many of Kobe's skills in a 6'10 body. But that if Mac were 6'6 that would make a difference. But its not a stretch to say Kobe has more raw talent than T Mac either.

[The Iron Fist]

I know about Bird's career. A lifelong hoops fan that was reading Basketball Digest at age 8 when the other kids were reading little kids books. And for me I go with Kobe. That doesn't mean I don't know about Bird's career. Kobe can dominate both sides of the ball in a manner Bird can't. And on a GOAT list, Bryant has already arguably passed Bird by. You can't deny Kobe's accomplishments. But if someone said Bird I can dig it and WON'T doubt their knowledge. Unless they say some dumb shit.


Heres a prime example of someone saying dumb shit,


"Don`t forget about Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone etc that played with Kobe as a 2nd Fiddle To Shaq"


Yea, because a group of guys who were in their 30s and one who was actually 40 years old, compares to a group of guys who were in their 20s when they played with eachother.

[catch24]

I know about Bird's career. A lifelong hoops fan that was reading Basketball Digest at age 8 when the other kids were reading little kids books. And for me I go with Kobe. That doesn't mean I don't know about Bird's career. Kobe can dominate both sides of the ball in a manner Bird can't. And on a GOAT list, Bryant has already arguably passed Bird by. You can't deny Kobe's accomplishments. But if someone said Bird I can dig it and WON'T doubt their knowledge. Unless they say some dumb shit.

I disagree somewhat. Kobe was a great defender during his peak/prime, but what about the last few years (making unjustified all-defensive teams over Wade), where people like to credit him for playing longer than Bird? At what point do you actually start breaking down and gauging individual play? Kobe should be applauded for playing longer despite performing/playing like a shell of his former self? During his prime, Bird was better than Kobe on the offensive end due to his play-making ability while simultaneously playing good-to-great defense (evident by his steals/blocks/all-defensive teams; difference is they were justified). So, I'm not sure what you meant by Bird not doing it in the manner Kobe could.

[catch24]

Same like Kobe's overall finals.:oldlol:

I never claimed Kobe was "raping" anyone, much less in the Finals.

We were talking about Kobe 'shutting down' players (like Iverson), and he did (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY)

[bizil]

Who Bird faced isn't the issue. The point is, he played with 4 other HOFers, on the same team, at the same time, while in his prime.

Kobe played with Payton (35), Rice (31,32) and Malone (40) while they were at the ass end of their careers. The only Celtic comparable to that, is Walton. Leave him off, and there are still 3 HOF players, with Bird, in their primes. Parish, from 27 to 32. McHale, 23-28. Johnson, 26-13. So please, don't come at me with that corny ass argument about Rice, Payton and Malone when each one was past their best years and Bird had his teammates in their absolute primes.



Its funny how when people downplay Kobe, its because, "he played on a stacked team and thats the only reason he won any title".

Yet, somehow, Bird and Magic get a pass for playing on truly stacked teams. Their all time ranking never suffers one bit either. I love the hypocrisy.


So, with that, eat a turd.

Exactly right! I've seen games where the Lakers have Magic, Scott (criminally underrated and easily an All Star SG), Worthy, McAdoo, and Kareem on the floor together. That's sick right there having a guy like McAdoo coming off your bench. The Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, and many teams of that era had stacked deck teams. Meaning having 4-5 All Star (or some teams HOFers) on a team. It's not like that these days.

Kobe plays with one HOFer in his prime in Shaq people had the nerve to say Kobe was just a Robin. If anything it was Superman-Batman or Batman-Batman however u wanna put it.

[Odinn]

The Iron Fist

78-79 Celtics, some of them;
30 year old Dave Cowens
23 year old Cedric Maxwell
30 year old Chris Ford
30 year old Tiny Archibald
32 year old Jo-Jo White
27 year old Bob McAdoo (for 20 games)
Team Record: 29-53

---

In 1979-80 season, Bird joined Boston Celtics and their record was 61-21 for Bird's rookie season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1979.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1980.html

Now, shut up.

[bizil]

I disagree somewhat. Kobe was a great defender during his peak/prime, but what about the last few years (where he's been making unjustified all-defensive teams over Wade), where people like to credit him for playing longer than Bird? At what point do people actually start breaking down and gauging individual play? Kobe should be applauded by playing longer despite playing like a shell of former self? During his prime, Bird was easily better than Kobe on the offensive end due to his play-making, and simultaneously played good-to-great defense (evident by his steals/blocks/all-defensive-teams; difference is they were justified). So I'm not sure what you meant by Bird not doing it in the manner Kobe could?

I'm talking on an island and you have Jordan, Nique, or Bernard King with the ball, who do u want guarding them. Kobe or Bird? Easily Kobe. I'm not talking about the last couple of years for Kobe. I'm talking at his best. That would be like me pointing out Bird laying on his stomach and looking worse than Kobe EVER has. And I wouldn't say Kobe is a shell of his former self. He hasn't fallen off HARD like ya boy Bird yet. As a matter of fact, Kobe is gonna come back better than many people think. Watch and see!

Kobe at his best was a great all around player as well. Kobe has put up 6 assists seasons before. But I can dig Bird with the passing and rebounding edge though. But on a GOAT list, Kobe has the accomplishments to pass Bird by, if he hasn't already. I don't know why this is such a bitter pill to swallow for many. But as far as a player, if one says Bird over Kobe then no argument. Even though I disagree.

[bizil]

I disagree. Kobe always struck me as a guy who got the most out of his ability (though he had a shitload of natural talent to be sure). T-Mac not so much, he kind of seemed to get by on his talent alone.

I see what u are saying and agree with u! It did seem that Mac did get by huge on talent. But might not have got the most outta it. It seemed like Mac had a killer instinct and wanted to be the best player at the time. But Kobe was like a mass murderer instinct and wanted to be the best ever! Great point!

[catch24]

I'm talking on an island and you have Jordan, Nique, or Bernard King with the ball, who do u want guarding them. Kobe or Bird? Easily Kobe. I'm not talking about the last couple of years for Kobe.

I want Kobe defending. On the flip side of that coin, who would you want finding a teammate and/or scoring the GW basket, Kobe or Bird?

17ppg with piss-poor defense vs. Dallas says otherwise. Now, I'm not saying Kobe won't come back next season and tear shit up (I hope he does), but facts are facts.


I don't know why this is such a bitter pill to swallow for many.

Because it's totally unjustified. Bird was an all-around better player and postseason performer with SLIGHTLY less accomplishments (given the context, i.e., who he did it against and what ERA he did it in).

I just don't see it. In a couple years? Possibly; really just depends what Kobe does from here on out.

[rodman91]

I never claimed Kobe was "raping" anyone, much less in the Finals.

We were talking about Kobe 'shutting down' players (like Iverson), and he did (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY)

Iverson wasn't good example about shutting down since they tried tyron lue on him after 1st half at biggest stage in NBA.

Anyway, Afro Kobe was a good defender..He had athletism,focus and will.I just dont put him in best "shut down defenders" list.

Also while defensive edge is on Kobe, i don't find it can fill the gaps between him and Bird when you consider other aspects of game.

Bird was much better rebounder,passer,shooter..better court vision, IQ.Also better individual stats & awards.

Better athletism and defense at Kobe's side.

[chips93]

give me bird by an inch.

hes a much better rebounder, regardless of pace (bird: 14.5 TRB% > kobe:8.2TRB%)

hes a more efficeint scorer, and he can play with great players, he has the versatility on the court and the mentality to co-exist with great players. this is something kobe doesnt have.

kobe's a better defender and iso scorer, but that doesnt close the gap enough for it to be a contest for me.

[TheLogo]

give me bird by an inch.

hes a much better rebounder, regardless of pace (bird: 14.5 TRB% > kobe:8.2TRB%)

hes a more efficeint scorer, and he can play with great players, he has the versatility on the court and the mentality to co-exist with great players. this is something kobe doesnt have.

kobe's a better defender and iso scorer, but that doesnt close the gap enough for it to be a contest for me.

last time I checked winning 5 rings involve some pretty good teammates. Kobe has done it better than Bird.

[catch24]

Iverson wasn't good example about shutting down

Of course it was. "Zaza" claimed he's never seen Kobe shut-down players like Iverson; he was wrong. Since when was the criteria in the playoffs/Finals or even multiple games? That's right, it wasn't.

Admit it; you posted a pic that had absolutely nothing to do with my link or post.

[TheLogo]

So you admit Kobe didn't win by himself? Good, you're learning.

you can't play 1 on 5. If Kobe had to, he probably can.

It's against NBA rules. I believe you have to have 5 on the floor and no bench.

[TheLogo]

:facepalm Against who? The Timberwolves? LOL

He did against the NBA Champions, Dallas Mavericks, years ago when he outscored the whole team.

At the pace he was going, he probably could have beat a NBA team.

[rmt]

25.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg on 45%
24.3ppg, 10rpg, 6.3apg on 50%



I'm just keeping it real and Kobe is the closest thing to MJ. MJ is better than Bird. And Kobe is close enough to MJ. So Kobe is better than Bird too.

That's some logic there.


I know you must be lonely and want to start debating to kill time but any true basketball fan will tell you that Kobe is better than Bird.


Maybe you should let others speak for themselves.


People know Kobe is better than Bird.

It's amazing what you know.


Kobe is close enough to MJ's level for me to pick Kobe over Bird.

Again, that's some logic there. Kobe is a pale imitation of MJ.

RS
MJ 30.1pts / 6.2 reb / 5.3 asst / 2.3 stl on 50% FG
Kobe 25.3 pts / 5.3 reb / 4.7 asst / 1.5 stl on 45% FG

Playoffs
MJ 33.4 pts / 6.4 reb / 5.7 asst on 49%FG
Kobe 25.4 pts / 5.1 reb / 4.8 asst on 45% FG

6 rings as the man > 2 rings as the man
5 MVPs > 1 MVP
6 FMVPs > 2 FMVPs
10 scoring champ > 2
1 DPOY > 0

[Big164]

Robert parish is a hof but no way is he a top 50 player. If we take the top 10 guys from each of the 5 positions, parish ain't getting in the centers club and Dj won't make it in the sg club.

Mchale was the only buddy bird had in the top 50 and he is 30ish at best.

Kobe played with a prime toP 5 center

Kareem played with the no 1 and no 2 PGs of all time.

The reason we rank bird so high because he did it without having team mates in the top 30.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Robert parish is a hof but no way is he a top 50 player. If we take the top 10 guys from each of the 5 positions, parish ain't getting in the centers club and Dj won't make it in the sg club.

Mchale was the only buddy bird had in the top 50 and he is 30ish at best.

Kobe played with a prime toP 5 center

Kareem played with the no 1 and no 2 PGs of all time.

The reason we rank bird so high because he did it without having team mates in the top 30.

Is Pau Gasol a Top 50 player?

[gengiskhan]

Reasons why Bird is clearly BETTER than Kobe

Bird clearly more CLUTCH performer (PO clutchness, steal to win series etc etc) & arguably the most clutch player ever to play the game.

Bird clearly more efficient scorer (Knew how to play off the ball brilliantly, positioning himself) scores lot more easily. takes 1/2 a second to get a proper shot off.

Bird clearly has better intangibles, Bball IQ, Court Vision (makes team mates much better, presence on the court makes whole team better)

Bird Much better Passer & playmaker & probably 2nd best ever after Magic Johnson. his passing so effortless

Kobe clearly better defender than Bird

Bird is so much better than Kobe. Its not even close.

Bird guaranteed Top 5 GOAT who transformed NBA forever.

Kobe guaranteed Top 15 GOAT with highest position at 12th.

Kobe just lacks the impact Bird had.

[rodman91]

Reasons why Bird is clearly BETTER than Kobe

Bird clearly more CLUTCH performer (PO clutchness, steal to win series etc etc) & arguably the most clutch player ever to play the game.

Bird clearly more efficient scorer (Knew how to play off the ball brilliantly, positioning himself) scores lot more easily. takes 1/2 a second to get a proper shot off.

Bird clearly has better intangibles, Bball IQ, Court Vision (makes team mates much better, presence on the court makes whole team better)

Bird Much better Passer & playmaker & probably 2nd best ever after Magic Johnson. his passing so effortless

Kobe clearly better defender than Bird

Bird is so much better than Kobe. Its not even close.

Bird guaranteed Top 5 GOAT who transformed NBA forever.

Kobe guaranteed Top 15 GOAT with highest position at 12th.

Kobe just lacks the impact Bird had.

this might add 10 pages alone:D

[SuperPippen]

Almost everyone who has a modicum of intellect agrees that Bird>Kobe, at least at this point of Kobe's career.

[imlmf]

at what? raping white girls? you f ucking fa99ot

[Big164]

Is Pau Gasol a Top 50 player?
Pau is worth more than parish ainge or dj for sure. Has time to surpass mchale which would make him top 50.

Kobe played with better guys, he's basically the Robert horry of the top 10.

[gengiskhan]

Pau is worth more than parish ainge or dj for sure. Has time to surpass mchale which would make him top 50.

Kobe played with better guys, he's basically the Robert horry of the top 10.

But the reality is Kobe aint Top 10 by any stretch. 1 consolidation MVP + 2 Finals MVPs out of 7 NBA Finals in 15 season after playing for winningest franchise like Lakers just aint enough.

could've worked if played for Bulls, sixers, rockets or even hornets that drafted him.

[kaiiu]

give me Bird

[kaiiu]

So LeBron didn't shut down Derrick Rose? :roll:
no he didnt actually

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Pau is worth more than parish ainge or dj for sure. Has time to surpass mchale which would make him top 50.

Kobe played with better guys, he's basically the Robert horry of the top 10.

Is he Top 50 right now? Or when the Lakers won their last two titles?

[gengiskhan]

Michael Jordan says hi.

in terms of sheer clutchness, Bird & MJ are neck to neck.

Bird got the shot off better at less than 1/2 a second & made many of them.

MJ got the shot off more artistically at less than second & made many.

If I have 0.4 secs left for catch & shoot, Bird should be picked over MJ easily.

If I have 0.9 secs left for catch & shoot, Pick either. both are clutch winners.

btw, ignore kobe'tards in subsequent posts who'll say "pick kobe" (just remind them 2011 dallas vs lakers, game 1 with tons of time left for buzzer brick kobe laid with no hand in his face.)

[Vertical-24]

at what? raping white girls? you f ucking fa99ot

LOL I farted

[G-Funk]

If Kobe were to retire today, I'd be prone to rank him below Bird. Some people may value titles and other various intangibles differently than me, but from what I've seen from their games and the information I've gathered, I just can't fathom how Kobe would be ahead of Bird (even WITH the differences I just spoke of). Bird was more dominant (evident by his MVPs and playoff performances), lead three teams to championships against some of the GREATEST teams ever assembled, was more clutch, had less blemishes in his career (be it in do-or-die situations or flat-out just playing inconsistent basketball), etc. I can go on, but you get the picture.

I just don't see it - so no, I couldn't understand.



I agree with Bird over Kobe, but you acted like its absurd to rank Kobe over Bird all time. It really isn't.....depending on what criteria is used.

Agree to disagree.



Right now I do think it would be kind of absurd. So because Kobe has 2 more titles and "better defense" (defense that he hasn't played in how many years now?), people want to rank him ahead of the greatest SF ever?

Doesn't make any sense to me, dude.

Bird has a career Player Efficiency Rating (PER) of 23.5. Kobe Bryant has a career player efficiency rating of 23.6. You might think the difference is negligible, but remember Kobe came into the league as a 17-year-old. He didn’t play much his rookie or sophomore year – two years in which he posted PERs under 20. Kobe Bryant’s playoff PER average is exactly at 22.0, while Bird’s is only 21.4. Again, Kobe’s Player Efficiency Rating is higher, despite coming into the league much earlier than Larry Bird and having limited minutes in his first three years. PER, is not the dispositive factor in who is a better player, but it does eliminate the idea that “Bird was just flat-out better than Kobe.”

All star games: Kobe has 12; Bird, 12.

All-NBA First Teams: Kobe has 8; Bird has 9.

All-NBA Team total selections: Kobe has 12 and Bird has 10

So far, Bird and Kobe are as close as they come, but where Kobe truly surpasses Bird is on the defensive end. Kobe Bryant is one of the all-time great defenders. While many fans think that Bryant’s defensive reputation is overrated, the coaches of the NBA have nine times put Kobe on the All-Defensive Team.

MVPs: Bird has 2 over Kobe, but in reality that is the weakest argument one can make for Bird. First, Bird won in '84, '85 and '86. Who else was going to win? It was either going to be Magic or Bird in the '80s. There was no one else until Jordan came along' and even then it took a while for the Bulls to become good enough for Michael to warrant MVP consideration.
Politics and personality robbed Kobe of a few MVP awards.


Bird was a better shooter. Kobe is a flat out scorer.

1. better longevity: Kobe
2. better overall talent: Kobe
3. better scorer: Kobe
4. better defender: Kobe
5. better clutch: Tie

Larry Bird's drive and desire to win was insane. It is reminescent of Kobe's.

[jlauber]

VERY CLOSE.

I have no problem with anyone ranking them, along with Hakeem, in any order from 8th thru 10th.

[G-Funk]

That's some logic there.



Maybe you should let others speak for themselves.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/editor/menupop.gif
It's amazing what you know.



Again, that's some logic there. Kobe is a pale imitation of MJ.

RS
MJ 30.1pts / 6.2 reb / 5.3 asst / 2.3 stl on 50% FG
Kobe 25.3 pts / 5.3 reb / 4.7 asst / 1.5 stl on 45% FG



LOL stupid way to compare them. Kobe at age 21 and on(same age Jordan came into the league) has been averaging 28/6/5/1 on 46%..thats 12 years of averaging that as a starter...

"hey it makes a lot of sense to compare Kobe's career averages to the GOATS when we know he came off the bench his first few years! It fits our agenda!!!!" lmao

[All Net]

VERY CLOSE.

I have no problem with anyone ranking them, along with Hakeem, in any order from 8th thru 10th.

Agreed

You could rank Bird, Kobe, Duncan and even Hakeem in any order.

I have Bird ahead of Kobe right now but that could change by the time Kobe calls it a day.

[jlauber]

Agreed

You could rank Bird, Kobe, Duncan and even Hakeem in any order.

I have Bird ahead of Kobe right now but that could change by the time Kobe calls it a day.

100% agreed.

:cheers:

[ImmortalD24]

Bird has a career Player Efficiency Rating (PER) of 23.5. Kobe Bryant has a career player efficiency rating of 23.6. You might think the difference is negligible, but remember Kobe came into the league as a 17-year-old. He didn’t play much his rookie or sophomore year – two years in which he posted PERs under 20.

Kobe Bryant’s playoff PER average is exactly at 22.0, while Bird’s is only 21.4. Again, Kobe’s Player Efficiency Rating is higher, despite coming into the league much earlier than Larry Bird and having limited minutes in his first three years.

PER, is not the dispositive factor in who is a better player, but it does eliminate the idea that “Bird was just flat-out better than Kobe.”

All star games: Kobe has 13; Bird, 12.

All-NBA First Teams: Kobe has 9; Bird has 9.

All-NBA Team total selections: Kobe has 11 (he actually has 13 total, but All-NBA 3rd team wasn't around till 1989) and Bird has 10

So far, Bird and Kobe are as close as they come, but where Kobe truly surpasses Bird is on the defensive end. Kobe Bryant is one of the all-time great defenders. While many fans think that Bryant’s defensive reputation is overrated, the coaches of the NBA have nine times put Kobe on the All-Defensive Team.

MVPs: Bird has 2 over Kobe, but in reality that is the weakest argument one can make for Bird. First, Bird won in '84, '85 and '86. Who else was going to win? It was either going to be Magic or Bird in the '80s. There was no one else until Jordan came along' and even then it took a while for the Bulls to become good enough for Michael to warrant MVP consideration.
Politics and personality robbed Kobe of a few MVP awards.


Bird was a better shooter. Kobe is a flat out scorer.

1. better longevity: Kobe
2. better overall talent: Kobe
3. better scorer: Kobe
4. better defender: Kobe
5. better clutch: Tie

Larry Bird's drive and desire to win was insane. It is reminescent of Kobe's.
Fixed for you.

[Fatal9]

Agreed

You could rank Bird, Kobe, Duncan and even Hakeem in any order.
One of those four is simply not as good as the others. "Rank in any order" is for guys who were on the same basic level as each other, and Kobe just...isn't.

[jlauber]

One of those four is simply not as good as the others. "Rank in any order" is for guys who were on the same basic level as each other, and Kobe just...isn't.

In the entire decade of the 00's, Kobe was the best player on the floor in the majority of the Western Playoffs series between Duncan's Spurs and Kobe's Lakers (even when playing with Shaq.)

[Vienceslav]

Comparing a player who is still playing and isn

[Nick Young]

Larry Bird has better stats,more MVPs,tied as FMVPs.2 more rings as sidekick can't beat that career.
less points, injured more, played in a weak era where only Lakers and Celtics were legit every year, way worse endurance, never even scored 80 points, 2 less rings...

[Nick Young]

I agree.

I would still take Kobe because he has the intangibles.

He has hit more game winners and played more shutdown defense than Bird.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Yes bird might be a higher percentage shooter but it didn't matter because he got lit up on defense so much, whereas Kobe shuts down his man every time.

Also Bird played his entire career with the man that many call the greatest post scorer of all time. Kobe only had what, 5-6 years with Shaq? And then he managed to win without him.

The case for Kobe keeps getting stronger

[G-Funk]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Yes bird might be a higher percentage shooter but it didn't matter because he got lit up on defense so much, whereas Kobe shuts down his man every time.

Also Bird played his entire career with the man that many call the greatest post scorer of all time. Kobe only had what, 5-6 years with Shaq? And then he managed to win without him.

The case for Kobe keeps getting stronger


lies

[Simple Jack]

no he didnt actually
:facepalm What exactly did he do to him then?

While I do think Bird was the better player for a variety of reasons, it's not nearly as big of a gap as people are making it out to be. You're talking about two top 10 players of all-time who can play with and be better than anyone who's ever played the sport on a given night.

[KevinNYC]

Heres 4 random players Bird played with

Robert Parrish HOF
Kevin McHale HOF
Dennis Johnson HOF
Bill Walton HOF

Heres 4 random players Kobe played with
Chris Mihm
Kwame Brown
Smush Parker
Shaquille Oneal

this could be the dumbest, most dishonest post I've ever read.

[KevinNYC]

at what? raping white girls? you f ucking fa99ot

Kobe never raped her. Read the trial transcripts and a Kobe-Bird thread doesn't need race brought into it.

[KevinNYC]

less points, injured more, played in a weak era where only Lakers and Celtics were legit every year, way worse endurance, never even scored 80 points, 2 less rings...

If there was a basketball commenting penalty box, you'd be in it.

Also what are you talking about with endurance? Bird played major minutes and was always fresh at the end of the game.

Are you talkin about career longevity? cuz that is a different thing. is Robert Parish better than Bill Russell because he played longer?

[necya]

:facepalm this thread and this site are clueless.

what you can read on ISH is just unbelievable. maybe some are paid to post bullshit in order to get 10 pages of...bullshit.

[Butters]

Posting in a troll thread

feelsgoodman

[rodman91]

less points, injured more, played in a weak era where only Lakers and Celtics were legit every year, way worse endurance, never even scored 80 points, 2 less rings...

less points...
Kobe : 25.3 ppg (45.4%)
Bird: 24.3 ppg (49.6%)
1 ppg more..but %4 less...

Injured more..
Except last 2 season,Bird played most of the games..There isn't difference between two players.

Weak Era...
80's had most stacked teams...:wtf:

Endurance..
Not much difference.Both played heavy minutes. Where did you get the idea way worse?

Never scored 80 points..
True.So?

2 less rings...
1 more as franchise player though.

Bird played 13 season..Kobe played 15..But still..

Bird's worst %FG season when he was injured, was %45.4.. That's Kobe's career %FG.

Bird had 5 seasons over %50 and one season almost %50 at FG%.Kobe has 0 season near to %50.

Bird had 6 seasons over %40 at 3 points.Kobe has 0 seasons so far.

Bird had 5 seasons over %90 at FT.Kobe has 0 seasons..

Despite he was PF/SF, Bird had 3 seasons more than 7 assist per game.Kobe has 0 seasons.

He had 8 seasons more than 6 assist per game.Kobe has 1 season assisted 6 per game.

As PF/SF, he has better steal per game than Kobe.

:violin:

[OmniStrife]

Magic > Bird >>>>>> Kobe

http://i.imgur.com/Hk2Vb.png

[rodman91]

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/575560/2010_20october_2024_2021_2027_202.jpeg
:lol

[DirtySanchez]

I think Kobe and Bird is a good debate.

Both different type players who played different positions as well.

Of course Kobe is the better athlete and better defender. Bird is the better shooter. Both are competitive and both demand the ball in the clutch. IMO you can not go wrong with either or.

This one is a tough one for me because I really like and respect both players and I watched both in their primes. But by a very narrow margin I would go with Kobe. Yes I understand he is a scorer rather then a shooter but Kobe has more intangibles with his game. He can hurt you in more ways IMO. In his prime he can lock down on Dee, take a fall away J, post up, drive pass you, etc. etc. And just like Larry Kobe wants to cut your heart out.

So there you go Kobe > Larry

[DirtySanchez]

Magic > Bird >>>>>> Kobe

http://i.imgur.com/Hk2Vb.png

Wow...that is really reaching but damn funny. lol

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Is he Top 50 right now? Or when the Lakers won their last two titles?

:confusedshrug:

[oolalaa]

Bird has a career Player Efficiency Rating (PER) of 23.5. Kobe Bryant has a career player efficiency rating of 23.6. You might think the difference is negligible, but remember Kobe came into the league as a 17-year-old. He didn’t play much his rookie or sophomore year – two years in which he posted PERs under 20. Kobe Bryant’s playoff PER average is exactly at 22.0, while Bird’s is only 21.4. Again, Kobe’s Player Efficiency Rating is higher, despite coming into the league much earlier than Larry Bird and having limited minutes in his first three years. PER, is not the dispositive factor in who is a better player, but it does eliminate the idea that “Bird was just flat-out better than Kobe.”

All star games: Kobe has 12; Bird, 12.

All-NBA First Teams: Kobe has 8; Bird has 9.

All-NBA Team total selections: Kobe has 12 and Bird has 10

So far, Bird and Kobe are as close as they come, but where Kobe truly surpasses Bird is on the defensive end. Kobe Bryant is one of the all-time great defenders. While many fans think that Bryant’s defensive reputation is overrated, the coaches of the NBA have nine times put Kobe on the All-Defensive Team.

MVPs: Bird has 2 over Kobe, but in reality that is the weakest argument one can make for Bird. First, Bird won in '84, '85 and '86. Who else was going to win? It was either going to be Magic or Bird in the '80s. There was no one else until Jordan came along' and even then it took a while for the Bulls to become good enough for Michael to warrant MVP consideration.
Politics and personality robbed Kobe of a few MVP awards.


Bird was a better shooter. Kobe is a flat out scorer.

1. better longevity: Kobe
2. better overall talent: Kobe
3. better scorer: Kobe
4. better defender: Kobe
5. better clutch: Tie

Larry Bird's drive and desire to win was insane. It is reminescent of Kobe's.

1. better longevity: unquestionably kobe

2. better overall talent: it depends what you mean by 'overall talent'. To me, prime bird was the better player so does that mean he has better overall talent? obviously kobe is the better athlete and makes a lot of tough shots but does that mean he has more 'overall talent'? I'm not sure...

3. better scorer: was kobe really the better scorer?

kobes 4 prime years 06 - 09:
31.1 ppg/23.9 fga (per 36 mins) on .491 efg%
27.9 ppg/20.1 fga ( " ) on .502 efg%
26.2 ppg/19.1 fga ( " ) on .503 efg%
26.8 ppg/20.8 fga ( " ) on .502 efg%

birds 4 prime years 85 - 88:
26.1 ppg/20.0 fga (per 36 mins) on .538 efg%
24.5 ppg/18.6 fga ( " ) on .521 efg%
24.9 ppg/17.9 fga ( " ) on .555 efg%
27.6 ppg/20.3 fga ( " ) on .556 efg%

to me they are very close but i would give the edge to kobe because of his superior ability to get to the line...

4. better defender: undoubtedly kobe though i think birds defence was a little underrated.

5. better clutch: tie?? :facepalm :banghead: the only player more clutch than bird was jordan. kobe is the most overrated player of all time 'in the clutch'. enough said.

lets add a couple more shall we?

6. better playmaker: undeniably bird

7. better leader/teamate: bird

and you said "Politics and personality robbed Kobe of a few MVP awards." :roll:
kobe should NOT have won in 07/08. chris paul got robbed. maybe he deserved it in 05/06 but ultimately kobe should thank his lucky stars that he has one.

[oolalaa]

Magic > Bird >>>>>> Kobe

http://i.imgur.com/Hk2Vb.png

:bowdown:

[Butters]

I think Kobe and Bird is a good debate.

Both different type players who played different positions as well.

Of course Kobe is the better athlete and better defender. Bird is the better shooter. Both are competitive and both demand the ball in the clutch. IMO you can not go wrong with either or.

This one is a tough one for me because I really like and respect both players and I watched both in their primes. But by a very narrow margin I would go with Kobe. Yes I understand he is a scorer rather then a shooter but Kobe has more intangibles with his game. He can hurt you in more ways IMO. In his prime he can lock down on Dee, take a fall away J, post up, drive pass you, etc. etc. And just like Larry Kobe wants to cut your heart out.

So there you go Kobe > Larry

:roll: :roll:

This thread delivers:applause:

[MiseryCityTexas]

Bird's one on one defense was shitty, but Bird's team defense was the shit. so yeah bird and random players could possibly beat kobe and random players.

[bizil]

That's some logic there.



Maybe you should let others speak for themselves.



It's amazing what you know.



Again, that's some logic there. Kobe is a pale imitation of MJ.

RS
MJ 30.1pts / 6.2 reb / 5.3 asst / 2.3 stl on 50% FG
Kobe 25.3 pts / 5.3 reb / 4.7 asst / 1.5 stl on 45% FG

Playoffs
MJ 33.4 pts / 6.4 reb / 5.7 asst on 49%FG
Kobe 25.4 pts / 5.1 reb / 4.8 asst on 45% FG

6 rings as the man > 2 rings as the man
5 MVPs > 1 MVP
6 FMVPs > 2 FMVPs
10 scoring champ > 2
1 DPOY > 0

For one Kobe is no pale imitation of MJ. Kobe is Kobe. But at the same time you can't help but to see the similarities. I'm talking in terms of talent and skillset. Awards wise MJ has Kobe beat in terms of MVP's. But MVP's can become political. Kobe and Shaq both deserved more than one MVP. And yes I said it, Kobe is close enough to MJ's skillset and talent to where you can conclude he's better than Bird too. I'm not saying it's a huge margin. But Kobe

As far as scoring titles, Kobe played with Shaq at at time where Kobe could have been racking up more scoring titles. And it kills me when people diss Kobe for playing with Shaq. Most great teams have multiple HOFers anyway. Kobe and Shaq was a Batman-Batman combo. It was a Dream Team combo. Just like Magic-Kareem, West-Baylor, Wade-Bron, Doc-Moses. So if Kobe get dissed then u gotta diss all the other combos I named as well.

So far we have been mostly talking about whose the better players in terms of skills and ability. But let's go to GOAT list talk. Where u factor solo and team accolades, numbers, and longevity being great. Kobe is at a point to where he's arguably past even Bird by on a GOAT list. Kobe has 28,000 points, 5 rings, a gold medal, 4 All Star MVPs, an MVP, etc. So when u factor this in, Kobe haters gotta understand that Kobe's resume is looking better than Bird's every day. Bird has the distinction for saving the NBA with Magic and setting the trail up for MJ. But at a certain point, u can't penalize Kobe cause he played in a different generation. Kobe's resume dictates that he has all it takes to pass even Bird on a GOAT list. If anything in terms of skills and ability it's close. But believe it or not, Kobe's resume at 33 years old looks more impressive than Bird's as of now.