2002 WCF Game 6 - Every 4th Quarter Foul

[chazzy]

The general view of G6 WCF is not just that it was poorly officiated, but deliberately rigged in favor of the Lakers. I've always thought this to be a product of groupthink, due to the fact that the game occurred nearly 10 years ago and people have not watched the game in a normal setting in so long. There's a standout missed call (Kobe elbow) and a FT disparity stat that is often used to paint a broad stroke over the entire game/quarter with little mention of the fouls which led to the penalty situation. The biggest piece of evidence people use now is that sensationalist "Greatest Tragedy" video, filled with dramatic music cuts and misleading editing/interpretation of fouls. For something so controversial and widely discussed, this deserves better insight than a clearly biased and edited video.

No one's really legitimately challenged this idea lately, so I thought I would create an open discussion about this. I am linking to every foul or possible missed foul of the 4th quarter, unedited, and including my own interpretation. I'm a Laker fan obviously and tried to be as unbiased as possible, so feel free to contest anything I say.

After going through the entire 4th, pausing and replaying many of the fouls, I felt that there were several calls that went in the Lakers' favor, but the majority were not blatant enough to label the game anything beyond bad officiating. Missed/bad calls happen in every single game. I didn't see anything that suggested the game was rigged beforehand to ensure a Laker W.

Keep in mind that:


1. The home team generally gets the benefit of the doubt in 50/50 situations

2. Referees do not have the benefit of replay, and pay attention to which specific referee calls each foul - they view the play from different angles.

3. Commentators see the same replays we do, so their opinion has no more authority than anyone else watching the same thing.

4. This is prime Shaq, arguably the most difficult player to officiate


Foul #1 Pollard moving screen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=3828s)

-Tough call. Pollard moved to set the screen kind of late and the ref could have thought his feet were not set by the time George made contact. A replay would be needed to see it more clearly, but I would've let that play go.


Foul #2 Pollard undercut foul against Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=3857s)

-Understandable why so many people think this is a bad call because he's straight up and the replay doesn't show Pollard's lower body, but he clearly undercuts Shaq as he goes up for the shot. As a defender, you cannot move into a shooter's position when he is in the air. Look where Shaq's feet are when he goes up, and look at where Pollard's feet end up after the shot.


Foul #3 Webber fastbreak foul against George (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4151s)<-- Can't find a clip

-Clear foul


Foul #4 George foul against Peja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=4081s)

-Clear foul


Foul #5 Vlade foul against Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=4369s")

-Vlade invades Shaq's space on the initial fake and then gets him on the forearm on the shot attempt


Foul #6 Offensive foul by Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=4444s)

-Reasonable call. A bit of acting by Webber but Shaq gets him with the elbow/hip on his spin


Foul #7 Clear path foul on Jackson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=4532s)

-Clear foul


Foul #8 Funderburke illegal post D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=4663s)

-Post defenders cannot use both arms. Ref had a better angle of it on the other side. The Kings are now in the penalty for the rest of the quarter


Foul #9 Reach in by Horry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=4955s)

- Good call


Foul #10 Foul by Horry against Divac (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5041s)

- Clear foul


Foul #11 Foul by Webber on Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5115s)

- Webber gets Shaq on the head. You could also argue Vlade's arms weren't straight up and Shaq hit them on his way up.


Foul #12 Webber charge against Horry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5258s)

- Tough call. From the broadcast angle (and the angle of the ref) it looks like he uses his forearm, but the replay from the side shows he just gives him a shoulder shrug.


Foul #13 Foul by Vlade against Horry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5258s)

- Clear foul, Vlade lands on top of Horry. Could've also called a foul on Webber for the reach as well.


Foul #14 Kobe reach on Bibby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5578s)

- Clear foul


Foul #15 Foul by Funderburke on Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5612s)

- Foul on the post entry, holding with the left arm and reaching over with the right.


Foul #16 Foul by Shaq on Funderburke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5668s)

-Could've been a flagrant


Foul #17 Foul by Christie on Kobe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5722s)

- Tough call. It looks like contact live, but the replay shows Christie was riding Kobe and went straight up on the shot attempt. I'm not sure if it's considered a foul because he was into Kobe's body as he went up for the shot. It's not clear enough to me, so I probably would've let that go.


Foul #18 Loose ball foul by Funderburke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5790s)

- Clear foul


Foul #19 Foul by Fisher on Bibby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5851s)

- Fisher reaches and grabs Bibbys shooting arm right before he goes up


Foul #20 Foul by Turkoglu on Fox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=5919s)

- Turk gets him on his shooting arm/shoulder


Foul #21 Blocking foul by Fox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=6207s)

- No replay so it's hard to tell if Fox had position. But it looks like their feet get tangled up, so it's a reasonable call.


Foul #22 - Intentional foul by Jackson


Missed foul - Elbow by Kobe on Bibby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sn_5Iiu_AZI#t=6559s)

-Obvious missed call


Foul #23 -Intentional foul by Christie

Foul #24 - Intentional foul by Turkoglu


The only BLATANT missed call or bad call is the Kobe elbow IMO. There are a couple of other missed/bad calls, but they were not nearly as clear cut. Basically, I didn't see anything that led me to believe the refs had an agenda to make sure the Lakers won this game going into it.

The full video is there. I don't care what Ralph Nader said etc., you can see every play in the video yourself. Feel free to add any other plays that you think were questionable from the 4th and/or do your own breakdown. I'll edit in the additional questionable calls.

[Droid101]

Can you do a breakdown of game 5 and game 3 also? Try to be unbaised as well there too.

[DMAVS41]

The general view of G6 WCF is not just that it was poorly officiated, but deliberately rigged in favor of the Lakers. I've always thought this to be a product of groupthink, due to the fact that the game occurred nearly 10 years ago and people have not watched the game in a normal setting in so long. There's a standout missed call (Kobe elbow) and a FT disparity stat that is often used to paint a broad stroke over the entire game/quarter with little mention of the fouls which led to the penalty situation. The biggest piece of evidence people use now is that sensationalist "Greatest Tragedy" video, filled with dramatic music cuts and misleading editing/interpretation of fouls. For something so controversial and widely discussed, this deserves better insight than a clearly biased and edited video.

No one's really legitimately challenged this idea lately, so I thought I would create an open discussion about this. I am linking to every foul or possible missed foul of the 4th quarter, unedited, and including my own interpretation. I'm a Laker fan obviously and tried to be as unbiased as possible, so feel free to contest anything I say.

After going through the entire 4th, pausing and replaying many of the fouls, I felt that there were several calls that went in the Lakers' favor, but the majority were not blatant enough to label the game anything beyond bad officiating. Missed/bad calls happen in every single game. I didn't see anything that suggested the game was rigged beforehand to ensure a Laker W.

Keep in mind that:


1. The home team generally gets the benefit of the doubt in 50/50 situations

2. Referees do not have the benefit of replay, and pay attention to which specific referee calls each foul - they view the play from different angles.

3. Commentators see the same replays we do, so their opinion has no more authority than anyone else watching the same thing.

4. This is prime Shaq, arguably the most difficult player to officiate


Foul #1 Pollard moving screen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=3979s)

-Tough call. Pollard moved to set the screen kind of late and the ref could have thought his feet were not set by the time George made contact. A replay would be needed to see it more clearly, but I would've let that play go.


Foul #2 Pollard undercut foul against Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4010s)

-Understandable why so many people think this is a bad call because he's straight up and the replay doesn't show Pollard's lower body, but he clearly undercuts Shaq as he goes up for the shot. As a defender, you cannot move into a shooter's position when he is in the air. Look where Shaq's feet are when he goes up, and look at where Pollard's feet end up after the shot.


Foul #3 Webber fastbreak foul against George (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4151s)

-Clear foul


Foul #4 George foul against Peja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4253s)

-Clear foul


Foul #5 Vlade foul against Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4375s)

-Vlade invades Shaq's space on the initial fake and then gets him on the forearm on the shot attempt


Foul #6 Offensive foul by Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4522s)

-Reasonable call. A bit of acting by Webber but Shaq gets him with the elbow/hip on his spin


Foul #7 Clear path foul on Jackson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4610s)

-Clear foul


Foul #8 Funderburke illegal post D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4738s)

-Post defenders cannot use both arms. Ref had a better angle of it on the other side. The Kings are now in the penalty for the rest of the quarter


Foul #9 Reach in by Horry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4891s)

- Good call


Foul #10 Foul by Horry against Divac (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=4978s)

- Clear foul


Foul #11 Foul by Webber on Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5033s)

- Webber gets Shaq on the head. You could also argue Vlade's arms weren't straight up and Shaq hit them on his way up.


Foul #12 Webber charge against Horry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5197s)

- Tough call. From the broadcast angle (and the angle of the ref) it looks like he uses his forearm, but the replay from the side shows he just gives him a shoulder shrug.


Foul #13 Foul by Vlade against Horry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5277s)

- Clear foul, Vlade lands on top of Horry. Could've also called a foul on Webber for the reach as well.


Foul #14 Kobe reach on Bibby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5409s)

- Clear foul


Foul #15 Foul by Funderburke on Shaq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5444s)

- Foul on the post entry, holding with the left arm and reaching over with the right.


Foul #16 Foul by Shaq on Funderburke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5500s)

-Could've been a flagrant


Foul #17 Foul by Christie on Kobe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5552s)

- Tough call. It looks like contact live, but the replay shows Christie was riding Kobe and went straight up on the shot attempt. I'm not sure if it's considered a foul because he was into Kobe's body as he went up for the shot. It's not clear enough to me, so I probably would've let that go.


Foul #18 Loose ball foul by Funderburke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5620s)

- Clear foul


Foul #19 Foul by Fisher on Bibby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5682s)

- Fisher reaches and grabs Bibbys shooting arm right before he goes up


Foul #20 Foul by Turkoglu on Fox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5735s)

- Turk gets him on his shooting arm/shoulder


Foul #21 Blocking foul by Fox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5893s)

- No replay so it's hard to tell if Fox had position. But it looks like their feet get tangled up, so it's a reasonable call.


Foul #22 - Intentional foul by Jackson


Missed foul - Elbow by Kobe on Bibby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYV3-Mi8fw&feature=player_detailpage#t=6132s)

-Obvious missed call


Foul #23 -Intentional foul by Christie

Foul #24 - Intentional foul by Turkoglu


The only BLATANT missed call or bad call is the Kobe elbow IMO. There are a couple of other missed/bad calls, but they were not nearly as clear cut. Basically, I didn't see anything that led me to believe the refs had an agenda to make sure the Lakers won this game going into it.

The full video is there. I don't care what Ralph Nader said etc., you can see every play in the video yourself. Feel free to add any other plays that you think were questionable from the 4th and/or do your own breakdown.


If Lakers fans can't admit that game 6 was a one sided game....well...its pathetic.

It goes beyond just specific calls as well. There is a level of frustration that comes from playing a tough team and getting jobbed by the refs as well. And you won't get that through isolated plays. There was a reason why so many people in the sports world (fans, players, and writers) all agree that something was fishy in game 6.

Not to mention of course that Donaghy claimed it was rigged...and he seems to be right way more often than wrong about his allegations..etc.

Much like game 5 in the 2006 finals, game 6 of the 02 wcf was a horribly one sided game and the refs had way too big of an impact in determining the winner.

But of course this ISH and Lakers fans. You have to debate facts with them constantly.

[Droid101]

If Lakers fans can't admit that game 6 was a one sided game....well...its pathetic.
So, you didn't watch the links. You can just say that.

[chazzy]

If Lakers fans can't admit that game 6 was a one sided game....well...its pathetic.

It goes beyond just specific calls as well. There is a level of frustration that comes from playing a tough team and getting jobbed by the refs as well. And you won't get that through isolated plays. There was a reason why so many people in the sports world (fans, players, and writers) all agree that something was fishy in game 6.

Not to mention of course that Donaghy claimed it was rigged...and he seems to be right way more often than wrong about his allegations..etc.

Much like game 5 in the 2006 finals, game 6 of the 02 wcf was a horribly one sided game and the refs had way too big of an impact in determining the winner.

But of course this ISH and Lakers fans. You have to debate facts with them constantly.
I'm asking people like you to put away your preconceived notions and just watch the video. Contest my interpretations of the fouls and tell me how this was a clearly rigged 4th quarter. Honestly, I'm just trying to generate discussion with the cold hard facts right in front of us. I just haven't been thoroughly convinced it was rigged

[catch24]

The Walter White of the forum, OP? I think so. :applause:

[DMAVS41]

I'm asking people like you to put away your preconceived notions and just watch the video. Contest my interpretations of the fouls and tell me how this was a clearly rigged 4th quarter. Honestly, I'm just trying to generate discussion with the cold hard facts right in front of us. I just haven't been thoroughly convinced it was rigged

Because I've seen the game like 4 or 5 times. It was obvious when watching it.

Again, I'll take my impressions along with many others and a ref claiming there was a mandate to push it to 7.

[RRR3]

If Lakers fans can't admit that game 6 was a one sided game....well...its pathetic.

It goes beyond just specific calls as well. There is a level of frustration that comes from playing a tough team and getting jobbed by the refs as well. And you won't get that through isolated plays. There was a reason why so many people in the sports world (fans, players, and writers) all agree that something was fishy in game 6.

Not to mention of course that Donaghy claimed it was rigged...and he seems to be right way more often than wrong about his allegations..etc.

Much like game 5 in the 2006 finals, game 6 of the 02 wcf was a horribly one sided game and the refs had way too big of an impact in determining the winner.

But of course this ISH and Lakers fans. You have to debate facts with them constantly.
:applause: :cheers:

[Blackisbig]

Look at the total number of fouls called over the course of the series. The Kings shot far more ft's than the Lakers in a couple of games, keeping in mind that the Lakers had prime Shaq, and no one ever brings that up. The series was poorly officiated, but it wasn't rigged.

[chazzy]

:applause: :cheers:
The factual video is in the OP. I linked to every foul. You're welcome to debate over it

[DMAVS41]

The factual video is in the OP. I linked to every foul. You're welcome to debate over it

There are like at least 4 or 5 poor calls. Now, what you don't seem to understand is how officiating impacts plays in which there aren't even a whistle blown to begin with.

Also, the 4th qtr (much like the 4th qtr of the Blazers series in 00 and the 4th qtr of game 7 in the finals in 10) saw a 180 degree change in the way the game was being called. And it just happened that LA got the huge benefit of that change and the calls. Players go from the game being called one way....to another way in the midst of a game in the 4th qtr. Again, you have to take stuff like that into account. Its not just specific calls every time....but even if that is the approach, I still see a lopsided amount of bs calls against the kings in a crucial 4th qtr.

The entire sports world just didn't wake up after that game in outrage because of some "Laker Hate" or anything.....even LA beat writers and fans were willing to admit something just wasn't right about that game.

I don't have it, but Wilbon wrote a good article on that game. People just didn't make it up.

[chazzy]

There's a bit of a leap between claiming a game wasn't officiated well and claiming it was rigged. From breaking down every foul I never got the overwhelming sense that there was an agenda behind the way the calls were being made. No game is officiated perfectly.. and while the Lakers had several tough calls go their way, nearly all of them were debatable during live action.

If someone feels strongly about this game being rigged, I would love for them to do their own breakdown and counter what I saw. I could just be seeing things differently since I'm a Laker fan, but I did my best to analyze each foul objectively.

[DMAVS41]

There's a bit of a leap between claiming a game wasn't officiated well and claiming it was rigged. From breaking down every foul I never got the overwhelming sense that there was an agenda behind the way the calls were being made. No game is officiated perfectly.. and while the Lakers had several tough calls go their way, nearly all of them were debatable during live action.

If someone feels strongly about this game being rigged, I would love for them to do their own breakdown and counter what I saw. I could just be seeing things differently since I'm a Laker fan, but I did my best to analyze each foul objectively.

It just depends on the definition of "rigged"

I watched game 6 and came away thinking the refs did everything they could to help force a game 7. It went beyond just a poorly officiated game for me.

And I think that is commonly accepted in the sports world.

[chazzy]

It just depends on the definition of "rigged"

I watched game 6 and came away thinking the refs did everything they could to help force a game 7. .
How though? This is what I'm asking.. what were all these calls that made it clear who the refs wanted to win? It's easy to point at the FT disparity, but only 4 out of the 24 total fouls were debatable to me. And only one was CLEARLY a missed call. For a game that's so widely believed to be rigged, I expected more clearly blown calls.

[eliteballer]

:applause:

Also of note, the biggest FT disparity in this series wasnt Game 6, it was Game 5 or 3 forgot which...where the Kings had the edge.

Its funny how these clowns act like "but but but some sportswriter hack says this" who is writing that to generate controversy and publicity...overrides what your own eyes tell you. Classic example of one person saying something and everyone taking the ball and running with it.

[catch24]

And I think that is commonly accepted in the sports world.

Doesn't necessarily mean the concept (or game in this instance) can't be re-examined.

Most of the sports-world thought Dirk was a choker and/or soft player before winning it all this past season. I've seen you disagree with that notion VEHEMENTLY, providing cold-hard facts that say otherwise. What's the difference?

[eliteballer]

And I think that is commonly accepted in the sports world.


No it's not, this isnt the Black Sox scandal for crying out loud:roll:

[eliteballer]

On that Kobe elbow, Bibby grabs him around the waist first, that should have been a foul on Bibby.

[eliteballer]

Gotta love how the haters have NOTHING to say:pimp:

[tpols]

There is a level of frustration that comes from playing a tough team and getting jobbed by the refs as well.
THIS is what it all stems from. The Lakers were the two time defending champs.. a sort of evil empire.. the big dogs. Regular fans outside of LA and fans in general across all sports tend to always route for the underdog.. and ESPECIALLY when the underdog has the champs on the ropes. Of course there will be a level of frustration when the team you want to lose wins.. and especially so if they got a bunch of calls go their way. But bad calls and bs happen all the time in the NBA.

I remember a HUGE momentum turner in this years Finals.. The Heat were down 2 points I believe with 1 minute left in the 4th Q of a pivotal game 5 in Dallas. Lebron scored a bucket on the fastbreak that was recalled and he was issued an offensive foul.. but 95% of the time, Lebron gets that call in HIS favor. Not saying the game was rigged, but that call was the turning point in the series.. and it was not consistent with what we have seen called for Lebron his whole career.



The entire sports world just didn't wake up after that game in outrage because of some "Laker Hate" or anything.....even LA beat writers and fans were willing to admit something just wasn't right about that game.



Doesn't necessarily mean the concept (or game in this instance) can't be re-examined.

Most of the sports-world thought Dirk was a choker and/or soft player before winning it all this past season. I've seen you disagree with that notion VEHEMENTLY, providing cold-hard facts that say otherwise. What's the difference?
Exactly.. people didn't just wake up one morning and decide that Dirk was a choker. There were a few select plays and chokejobs he had that gave him that image.. much like Kobe's elbow hitting Bibby being called a foul on Bibby. All it takes are a few polarizing plays to have the media sensationalize something that isn't necessarily true as a 'fact'.

[eliteballer]

Just posted this to another board.

[Holy Random]

On that Kobe elbow, Bibby grabs him around the waist first, that should have been a foul on Bibby.

God you are a complete ****ing moron

[RRR3]

God you are a complete ****ing moron
I love your avatar! :cheers:

[Holy Random]

I love your avatar! :cheers:

:cheers: I made a full gif a while back and then thought it would be perfect for an avy.

[DMAVS41]

THIS is what it all stems from. The Lakers were the two time defending champs.. a sort of evil empire.. the big dogs. Regular fans outside of LA and fans in general across all sports tend to always route for the underdog.. and ESPECIALLY when the underdog has the champs on the ropes. Of course there will be a level of frustration when the team you want to lose wins.. and especially so if they got a bunch of calls go their way. But bad calls and bs happen all the time in the NBA.

I remember a HUGE momentum turner in this years Finals.. The Heat were down 2 points I believe with 1 minute left in the 4th Q of a pivotal game 5 in Dallas. Lebron scored a bucket on the fastbreak that was recalled and he was issued an offensive foul.. but 95% of the time, Lebron gets that call in HIS favor. Not saying the game was rigged, but that call was the turning point in the series.. and it was not consistent with what we have seen called for Lebron his whole career.




Exactly.. people didn't just wake up one morning and decide that Dirk was a choker. There were a few select plays and chokejobs he had that gave him that image.. much like Kobe's elbow hitting Bibby being called a foul on Bibby. All it takes are a few polarizing plays to have the media sensationalize something that isn't necessarily true as a 'fact'.

this has nothing to do with dirk.

its about a lakers game that has one of the worst and most one sided reffed games of all time.

lol at bring dirk into it....:roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Doesn't necessarily mean the concept (or game in this instance) can't be re-examined.

Most of the sports-world thought Dirk was a choker and/or soft player before winning it all this past season. I've seen you disagree with that notion VEHEMENTLY, providing cold-hard facts that say otherwise. What's the difference?

there are no cold hard facts here. i count 5 bs calls....and just the way the game was reffed was a joke in that 4th qtr.

much like game 7 in the finals in 10....most of those were fouls by the letter of the law....but most of those weren't called the first 3 qtrs...which is why stuff like this has to be experienced more in the moment to get an accurate read

posting isolated plays is fine, but it doesn't give you the entire picture.

[tpols]

this has nothing to do with dirk.

its about a lakers game that has one of the worst and most one sided reffed games of all time.

No.. it's about how you can declare all of the media calling dirk a choker for years bullshit, but turn around and act like the media couldn't be wrong in how the depicted game 6 in 02.:oldlol:

Saying people didn't one day wake up and all of a sudden make this up can be used to describe both scenarios. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that that series as a whole was reffed evenly with both sides getting the benefit of the whistle in different games.. just like how there is plenty of evidence of Dirk being clutch outside of his few horrific meltdowns.

[DMAVS41]

No.. it's about how you can declare all of the media calling dirk a choker for years bullshit, but turn around and act like the media couldn't be wrong in how the depicted game 6 in 02.:oldlol:

Saying people didn't one day wake up and all of a sudden make this up can be used to describe both scenarios. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that that series as a whole was reffed evenly with both sides getting the benefit of the whistle in different games.. just like how there is plenty of evidence of Dirk being clutch outside of his few horrific meltdowns.

are you serious? its not even remotely the same thing....

Dirk did choke at times....there is evidence of that. I never disputed that. I said labeling him a choker because of a couple poor moments is silly. totally different.

My issue with that is that every player has "choked"....like your boy kobe. he's choked plenty of times. lol


That game was just a simple screw job by the refs. Same with game 5 in 06 finals.....were most of the fouls in that game called properly? I bet, but it was the huge nature of the refs involvement that allowed the game to get out of control like it did with Wade just flopping all over the place and getting every call while the Mavs couldn't get a call.

Was it rigged? I have no idea.

The reason the term "rigged" comes up in the kings/lakers series is because it forced a game 7 and because donaghy talked about it.

And if you can't understand the difference in calling dirk a "choker"...when he's actually one of the most clutch players compared to calling a game "rigged"....that any way you slice it...it was a one sided reffed game

Again, totally different.

[tpols]

are you serious? its not even remotely the same thing....

Dirk did choke at times....there is evidence of that. I never disputed that. I said labeling him a choker because of a couple poor moments is silly. totally different.
And acting like this whole series was rigged for the Lakers to win or that the refs had an agenda to keep LA in it and to win it in the end because of ONE quarter in ONE game is silly as well.

Dont act like people think of this whole scandal as a one game thing.. most see the whole series as rigged from the start because of a few 'poor moments' from the refs in one of the games.

[DMAVS41]

And acting like this whole series was rigged for the Lakers to win or that the refs had an agenda to keep LA in it and to win it in the end because of ONE quarter in ONE game is silly as well.

Dont act like people think of this whole scandal as a one game thing.. most see the whole series as rigged from the start because of a few 'poor moments' from the refs in one of the games.

I didn't say that. I said that game. I already talked about how the Kings got a lot of help in game 5.

Most see it that way because the Kings were the better team. They should have won the series. Partly their fault for blowing some key moments and game 7....and partly the refs fault in my opinion for not staying consistent and favoring the Lakers more.

The series is another topic. This is about game 6. Chazzy sees only 1 bad call. I see around 5 or so. Some of those calls simply were not fouls leading up the 4th qtr and some just aren't fouls at all.

[catch24]

there are no cold hard facts here. i count 5 bs calls....and just the way the game was reffed was a joke in that 4th qtr.

Some of those foul calls were legit, though; contrary to popular belief.

Off the subject a little; I remember reading a Kings forum after they traded Jason Williams for Bibby and they were all pouting. They had no clue. Of course, Fisher makes a household name out of every pointguard, but Mike was the only one from Sac that had any sack. The rest I felt were all prone to choking in the clutch and they went at the refs from the first game on. Even if most fans think they got screwed, I think their OWN preoccupation with the refs was a constant emotional distraction for them.

[Doranku]

I love the people who continually insist that this game was rigged, yet these n!ggas ain't even got 2008 Game 2 of the Finals in their collective memory banks. :facepalm

[eliteballer]

Some of those foul calls were legit, though; contrary to popular belief.

Off the subject a little; I remember reading a Kings forum after they traded Jason Williams for Bibby and they were all pouting. They had no clue. Of course, Fisher makes a household name out of every pointguard, but Mike was the only one from Sac that had any sack. The rest I felt were all prone to choking in the clutch and they went at the refs from the first game on. Even if most fans think they got screwed, I think their OWN preoccupation with the refs was a constant emotional distraction for them.

Can't blame the Queenz fans, must have been too much for their little hearts. They'd never been on the big stage before:pimp:

[DMAVS41]

Some of those foul calls were legit, though; contrary to popular belief.

Off the subject a little; I remember reading a Kings forum after they traded Jason Williams for Bibby and they were all pouting. They had no clue. Of course, Fisher makes a household name out of every pointguard, but Mike was the only one from Sac that had any sack. The rest I felt were all prone to choking in the clutch and they went at the refs from the first game on. Even if most fans think they got screwed, I think their OWN preoccupation with the refs was a constant emotional distraction for them.

I completely agree. Part of being a championship team is dealing with adversity. The Mavs let it get to them in 06 at the end of game 3 and in game 5 and it played a factor. The issue that people have with that is simply that its something that shouldn't be a big part of the game. Refs should not impact the game as much as they do....so when its obviously one sided in a crucial 4th qtr in the WCF...people care more.

And of course Kings fans will overblow what happened. Just like Lakers fans like Chazzy want to play it down. Some of those calls were of course fouls....some of them were not.

Was it rigged? No idea. I do think it was extremely one sided and the calls were not consistent at all throughout the series. The "rigged" tag really came from Donaghy claiming it was. And again, that counts for something in my book. Donaghy is looking more and more accurate on this stuff as more information comes to pass.

The way Chazzy describes it though is that it was similar to the Boston vs LA game 7 4th qtr in 10. It wasn't. It was much much much worse than that. And that is why you saw the public outcry.....

[eliteballer]

Why dont you point out the specific calls clown. The Kings shot more total FT's in the series and the game with the biggest FT discrepency favored the Kings.

[jlauber]

IMHO, game FIVE was officiated even WORSE, in favor of the Kings. Sacramento got nearly every call down the stretch. And, think about this...Shaq averaged over 10 FTAs per game in that series...and yet, in game five...he took exactly ONE FT.

[EricForman]

Chazzy, thank you for trying to be as non-biase as possible on this. I respect that.

But several of those fouls by Vlade and Funderburke on Shaq that you explained as reasonable calls were indeed VERY ticky tack.

And foul #12, Webber "charge" on Horry. I can't believe you defended that call.

Also, check Walton's reaction to that Christie-on-Kobe foul

"*laughs* Mike Bibby cannot believe this. What is happening here? *snickers*"

Even Walton was hinting at "what the hell? this is ridiculous!"

I'm sorry but the video doesn't support your case. All I see are ticky tack calls on Vlade/Pollard/Funderburke (#15, #16, etc), two-three crucial, momentum-changing calls against Kings (charge on Webber, Christie on Kobe, no flagrant call on Shaq on that foul that even you admitted coulda been flagrant) and of course, the most crucial elbow foul.

[EricForman]

On that Kobe elbow, Bibby grabs him around the waist first, that should have been a foul on Bibby.

You f*cking troll... Bibby had one arm slightly touching Kobe at the point of the elbow. It was after the elbow Bibby grabbed onto Kobe. Even the OP admits that's a blatant no call (although the OP downplays it by saying it's 'just one no call" too when that no call could have led to um, THE LEAD CHANGING HANDS.

[All Net]

I will say this, a fair few were legit calls but I remember seating down with my mates watching and we were laughing hard as there were at least 4 straight calls that were made on the Kings that weren't close to be fouls.

It's hard for me as a fan to say 27 free-throws in the 4th somehow makes the game a fairly even contest. Kings did get jobbed in alot of the calls in that quarter and it showed.

Problem was and why Kings blew the game was they let what happened effect their performance which played a big factor in why they lost.

They had so many chances to win that series but choked. Refs are not why they lost. They simply threw away great chance to win that series and the title. They blew it big time in game 4 and in game 7 by missing so many free-throws. I can see why people bring up the refs but it is used too much in terms of deciding the series as that was not why they lost.

[EricForman]

I will say this, a fair few were legit calls but I remember seating down with my mates watching and we were laughing hard as there were at least 4 straight calls that were made on the Kings that weren't close to be fouls.

It's hard for me as a fan to say 27 free-throws in the 4th somehow makes the game a fairly even contest. Kings did get jobbed in alot of the calls in that quarter and it showed.

Problem was and why Kings blew the game was they let what happened effect their performance which played a big factor in why they lost.

They had so many chances to win that series but choked. Refs are not why they lost. They simply threw away great chance to win that series and the title. They blew it big time in game 4 and in game 7 by missing so many free-throws. I can see why people bring up the refs but it is used too much in terms of deciding the series as that was not why they lost.


I will admit that the Kings failed themselves in game 7 (still, they went against PRIME Shaq and near-prime Kobe and came up inches away from winning, I'm not sure if they should be condemned for failing)

BUT to continually poke fun at their game 4 doesn't make sense to me. Yes, they blew a 20 point 1st quarter lead to lose (on a miraculous situation that led to Horry three). BUT instead of saying the Kings "choked", what about Lakers falling behind by 20 in the first quarter? It's like, if the Kings just got destroyed from tip off to final buzzer they'd get less flack for losing a lead and going down by 1? And really, 20 point over three quarters isn't that big a meltdown, and when you consider Kings played perfect D on final possesion but a fluke incident happened to lead to Horry's three, I don't see how Kings should be ashamed or emabrassed about their game 4.

The Kings should be mad about being outplayed by games 1 and 7. That's about it. They did their jobs and outplayed the Lakers in games 2 to 6. They just lost two of those due to officiating and horribly bad luck.

Also, TOTAL UNRELATED note I thought I'd mention: Both Horry and Fox had a double double in that game 7. The Lakers were absolutely determined and played to 130% potential that night.

[chazzy]

Chazzy, thank you for trying to be as non-biase as possible on this. I respect that.
Thanks

And foul #12, Webber "charge" on Horry. I can't believe you defended that call.
The replay confirms it should have been a noncall, but the ref who made the call had essentially the same angle of the play as the viewers do. Watching it live, Horry sold it well as it looked like Webber gave him a little forearm push, but that obviously wasn't the case. Point is, it was a debatable call because of the sell job factoring in the ref's vantage point. Not a call that screams conspiracy to me


Also, check Walton's reaction to that Christie-on-Kobe foul
I'm torn on that call. He's straight up, but he's not squared up with Kobe when he cuts him off with his body and jumps straight up while perpendicular to Kobe. I don't know for sure what the actual ruling is on that.. and since I don't know what the rule is, I would've let that go like I said.

The main point of showing the video footage is that I expected more obvious missed calls based on the way people talk about how rigged that quarter was. I saw several calls that were tough/debatable factoring in everything and the elbow one was the only foul that really stood out as a really bad missed call. Obviously the timing of it in that situation makes it a huge call, but going with the narrative that the game was rigged from the onset.. it doesn't add up to me.

[qrich]

I'll actually watch those clips and try to base it off of how calls were/are generally made and NOT the officiating rule book:

Foul #1:
-Those calls are almost always let go, even though it should be a foul. Can't go based off the rule book, have to go based off the way the calls are generally made. Watching the replay multiple times, the official was really quick on the call too.

Foul #2:
-Clear foul, by the rule book but those are/were hardly ever called. Little questions on that one, would have been horrid had the official waited until the shot was missed to call it like many do.

Foul #3&4:
-No dispute in the slightest.

Foul #5:
-If that shot goes in, the official doesn't blow the whistle. My LEAST favorite thing that officials do.

Foul #6:
-Flop, but have to go based off how the calls are made, not the rules and it was a good call.

Foul #7:
-Clearly, but I wish officials would let those go.

Foul #8:
-Too tick-tack, iffy in my opinion.

Foul #9 & 10:
-Clear as day.

Foul #11:
-Watching it multiple times, I can't see Webber clearly hitting Shaq's head but it could be the quality of the vid. Glad whistle came before the shot was a clear miss though.

Foul #12:
-Amazing acting. Bad call or not, those were called (less often this past year though) and the official got it the way they used to make those calls.

Foul #13:
-Worst call thus far. Seemed like nothing more than a make-up call (Webber's reach) since Vlade knocked the ball out of Horry's possession before making contact worthy of a foul.

Foul #14:
-Good call as well.

Foul #15:
-Had Lawrence not had his arm around Shaq, it'd be a good knock a way, but good call.

Foul #16:
-Shaq made the play on the ball, but got his head. Do think it should have been a flagrant, but not atrocious by any means.

Foul #17:
-Just a bad call imo. Christie matched Kobe stride for stride and went straight up. Webber also got a clean block so nothing could be argued there.

Foul #18:
-Clear.

Foul #19:
-Clear.

Foul #20:
-Looked like Turk's arm was straight up. Should've been a no call imo.

Foul #21:
-Had there been no tangling of the feet, would have been a charge.

Missed Foul:
-Clearly a foul, anyone who says otherwise is on some good ish. Would have been a semi-understanding missed call had the officials not blown the whistle for over 20 fouls in the QUARTER alone. From the grainy vid, it looks like 2 officials were looking right in the vicinity and let it go. With 12.3 left, Kings having the ball, down by 1, the game would be entirely different.

Intention fouls that followed were just that.

Going solely based off replays on single play incidents and off with the general officiating style, there was 1 bad call, 2 so/so calls and one of the biggest missed calls of all-time.

But just going off solo replays don't show the whole picture as it doesn't show what the officiating style was throughout the first 36 minutes (forget the rest of the series) and it doesn't show if there was consistency on both ends of the floor. While I don't think the series was rigged in any way rather than the NBA trying to force a Game 7 (throughout the whole series) in the rivalry, the officiating was horrid and did benefit the Lakers throughout these 12 minutes. It is understandable it being the Lakers were the home squad (I'm sure Kings got some good calls at Arco Arena throughout Games 1, 2 & 5), the missed call has to be the biggest one to view. Sacramento though, can't go on blaming the officials. Again, going off these replays, tick-tack calls were made and they should have forced some calls to go there way and still had an opportunity to close out the series at home.

Props to go through all this Chazzy :cheers:

[Big#50]

So Bibby fouling Kobe's elbow with his nose was a good call?

[chazzy]

Thanks qrich, that's the type of response I was looking for. I think the main one we disagreed on was the Vlade loose ball foul - is he typically allowed to have the much contact on Horry in that situation? I'm by no means a rule book guru so that's why I wanted this to be more of a discussion than anything.

[qrich]

Thanks qrich, that's the type of response I was looking for. I think the main one we disagreed on was the Vlade loose ball foul - is he typically allowed to have the much contact on Horry in that situation? I'm by no means a rule book guru so that's why I wanted this to be more of a discussion than anything.

From what I saw in the replay and what I've seen from officials at every level and was told at my officiating classes (granted, it was just rec league/middle school/JV level officiating classes), Vlade knocked the ball loose before making contact (at least from what I saw) and those are generally live plays but had Vlade made contact than knocked the ball loose, it'd be a clear foul.

I'll have to check that play out again to see if I can clearly figure out had the ball been knocked loose before the contact or not.

[Rose]

I agree with most of your analysis on this. But there's a few I disagree with #12. In my eyes is pretty undefendable. And there's a couple ticky-tack fouls. that I think can go either way. but too me, it's the 4th quarter number fouls comparison. I'm not saying the Kings DIDNT foul. They did some of the time. BUT I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a few uncalled ones on the Lakers. Not that Webber would have hit any.:lol

[Batz]

I agree with most of your analysis on this. But there's a few I disagree with #12. In my eyes is pretty undefendable. And there's a couple ticky-tack fouls. that I think can go either way. but too me, it's the 4th quarter number fouls comparison. I'm not saying the Kings DIDNT foul. They did some of the time. BUT I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a few uncalled ones on the Lakers. Not that Webber would have hit any.:lol
How about you go and pick out those 'missed calls' and em tacks ya lazy bum.

[ukplayer4]

If Lakers fans can't admit that game 6 was a one sided game....well...its pathetic.

It goes beyond just specific calls as well. There is a level of frustration that comes from playing a tough team and getting jobbed by the refs as well. And you won't get that through isolated plays. There was a reason why so many people in the sports world (fans, players, and writers) all agree that something was fishy in game 6.

Not to mention of course that Donaghy claimed it was rigged...and he seems to be right way more often than wrong about his allegations..etc.

Much like game 5 in the 2006 finals, game 6 of the 02 wcf was a horribly one sided game and the refs had way too big of an impact in determining the winner.

But of course this ISH and Lakers fans. You have to debate facts with them constantly.




i completely agree, i watched all games of the series at the time. laker fans pointing to things like- "oh the series was pretty even in terms of ft's" and "lots of those calls are just tough debatable calls" are just missing the point. i have watched every finals since 96 and i have listened to all the garbage about 06 and 2010(although the officiating suddenely went back to touch fouls in the 4th allowing the lakers to get back from a double digit deficit, but lets not get into that). i have never thought much about the conspiracy theorists who come out and claim each series/games are rigged even with strange ft disparity(mavs/heat) or bad officiating but GAME 6 2002 WESTERN CONFERENCE WAS ****ING RIGGED. they didnt technically hand the lakers the series and title there and then but that is effectively what happened. game 7 was fine- the kings should have won, they chocked it away in ot, peja was tossing up air balls, all of that i agree with but there would have never been a game 7 if the refs didnt force it by robbing the kings of game 6.
all of those calls such as the cristie on kobe foul you can make an argument and say well theres contact its a tough call(its actually just good d but whatever) to the official it could have looked 50/50. well heres the thing, these things happened about 100 times a quarter, several times a possession probably. if every bit of incidental contact is used to justify a whistle and in every case it only ever favors the lakers that is just one of the many ways the refs allowed the lakers to win this game. you cannot overcome things like that. the kings were clearly the better team, its a traversty, poloticians have ordered investigations, a ref has actually admited as much. its the biggest misjustice in the history of the nba lets just move on.... if it hadnt been for bad luck horrys three/samaki walkers after the buzzer half court shot that counted the kings win that series 4-1. if it wasnt for rigged game 6 they still win 4-2. everything had to favor the lakers, they got handed a game and extremely lucky, i think this is why everyone is so bitter about that series.

[EricForman]

"rigged" is too strong a word. I don't think Stern sat in a dark room and told his minions "the Lakers must win this series" from the get go.

i believe there was a mandate to suggest favoritism to push for a game 7 (once game 7 came it was all fair, so league still gave Sac a chance lol).

this happens with the Lakers alot in the early 2000s. there's one game against Minnesota in 2003 (after the league CHANGED PLAYOFF FORMATS MIDSEASON because Lakers were stumbling and looked like they may be a low seed) where Wally Szwlkjkwelkejlkjsglkjsg ran after Kobe on a fastbreak, and right when Kobe went up, Wally put both arms up to show "look i ain't touching him" and then a whistle was still blown. That was game 2 or 3. I forgot. KG fouled out on a touch call too but the Wolves won miraculously thanks to Gary Trent or ssomeone of that sort who hit a bunch of ridiculous shots. Simmons mentioned that in a column years ago. That Wally "two arms up" call was pretty hilarious in replays.

here's a video of another Wally/Kobe call from that series (not THE one I just mentioned though, couldn't find it) but if you read the comments, many people still remember the calls hahaha http://youtu.be/5XS1r0svFuQ

[Droid101]

i completely agree, i watched all games of the series at the time. laker fans pointing to things like- "oh the series was pretty even in terms of ft's" and "lots of those calls are just tough debatable calls" are just missing the point. i have watched every finals since 96 and i have listened to all the garbage about 06 and 2010(although the officiating suddenely went back to touch fouls in the 4th allowing the lakers to get back from a double digit deficit, but lets not get into that). i have never thought much about the conspiracy theorists who come out and claim each series/games are rigged even with strange ft disparity(mavs/heat) or bad officiating but GAME 6 2002 WESTERN CONFERENCE WAS ****ING RIGGED. they didnt technically hand the lakers the series and title there and then but that is effectively what happened. game 7 was fine- the kings should have won, they chocked it away in ot, peja was tossing up air balls, all of that i agree with but there would have never been a game 7 if the refs didnt force it by robbing the kings of game 6.
all of those calls such as the cristie on kobe foul you can make an argument and say well theres contact its a tough call(its actually just good d but whatever) to the official it could have looked 50/50. well heres the thing, these things happened about 100 times a quarter, several times a possession probably. if every bit of incidental contact is used to justify a whistle and in every case it only ever favors the lakers that is just one of the many ways the refs allowed the lakers to win this game. you cannot overcome things like that. the kings were clearly the better team, its a traversty, poloticians have ordered investigations, a ref has actually admited as much. its the biggest misjustice in the history of the nba lets just move on.... if it hadnt been for bad luck horrys three/samaki walkers after the buzzer half court shot that counted the kings win that series 4-1. if it wasnt for rigged game 6 they still win 4-2. everything had to favor the lakers, they got handed a game and extremely lucky, i think this is why everyone is so bitter about that series.
Go watch game 5 and then come back here.

[Doctor Rivers]

If Lakers fans can't admit that game 6 was a one sided game....well...its pathetic.

It goes beyond just specific calls as well. There is a level of frustration that comes from playing a tough team and getting jobbed by the refs as well. And you won't get that through isolated plays. There was a reason why so many people in the sports world (fans, players, and writers) all agree that something was fishy in game 6.

Not to mention of course that Donaghy claimed it was rigged...and he seems to be right way more often than wrong about his allegations..etc.

Much like game 5 in the 2006 finals, game 6 of the 02 wcf was a horribly one sided game and the refs had way too big of an impact in determining the winner.

But of course this ISH and Lakers fans. You have to debate facts with them constantly.

you obviously didn't get the point of this thread

[chazzy]

Can people start listing these other missed calls that the Lakers got away with in that quarter? I'll take a look at them and add them to the list.

[tpols]

here's a video of another Wally/Kobe call from that series (not THE one I just mentioned though, couldn't find it) but if you read the comments, many people still remember the calls hahaha http://youtu.be/5XS1r0svFuQ
That happens all the time in the NBA.:oldlol:

The ONLY reason Wally put his hands up like that was to compensate for the fact that he just fouled Kobe.. you see it all the time. A player fouls someone and then shoots their arms up into the air acting like they were there the whole time.

The fact is Wally ran into Kobe[even if it was slight contact] with his arms pointed outwards, Kobe sold it, and then Wally tried to act like he didnt do anything by raising his arms after the play was over.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Great post, chazzy. I pretty much agree with your analysis. I've never bought the conspiracy theories, and there are a lot of weak arguments and double standards from those that support such theories.

And :oldlol: at using Tim Donaghy to support the fixed theory. He has numerous reasons to lie(to make himself not look as bad, sell a book ect.) and given what we know about him, he certainly doesn't seem like a guy who would be above lying. And he certainly picked an easy target in that 2002 WCF which fans have been bitching about for years, not like he picked one that was never suspected.

In other words, his claims don't prove anything.

[D.J.]

What the OP doesn't include is the non-calls from the Lakers side that game. Shaq got away with quite a few elbows that game.

[chazzy]

Bump. Updated the youtube links since the original was taken down.

[zizozain]

Bump. Updated the youtube links since the original was taken down.
OP: good job
laker haters: middle finger