Who is a better offensive player? MJ or kobe?

[sekachu]

Kobe-81 points, 62 in three quarters

MJ-10 scoring titles, probably 12 if he didn't retire.


81 and 62>>>>>>10 scoring titles????

[Doranku]

MJ and it's not close.

[donald_trump]

i honestly dont know one thing that kobe does better than mj apart from shooting outside 18 feet and ball handling.

[tobethdope]

MJ and it's not close.

this

[jstern]

i honestly dont know one thing that kobe does better than mj apart from shooting outside 18 feet and ball handling.

Phil while talking about Jordan's hand said that Jordan's handling are better than Kobe's. Perhaps you're talking about trying to be more stylish.

A good example was last year, when Kobe tried to drive in for the win and lost the ball, and walked off staring at his hand, and they started calling him butter fingers, perhaps the ball would have not slipped away if his hands were bigger.

[Jon_Koncak]

http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/3ytzdCRgLolhz8ObuYzaLw581260/GW270H15930

[GS1905]

http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/3ytzdCRgLolhz8ObuYzaLw581260/GW270H15930

:lol

[Dragonyeuw]

The thing when looking at Jordan's scoring vs Kobe's scoring, Kobe's prime as a scorer coincided with him being on a mediocre team, giving him a certain carte blanche to rack up phenomenal scoring games and streaks. Jordan's offensive game peaked( the outside jumpshot, the post game, the mental aspects) at the same time the Bulls evolved into a championship caliber unit. Thus the need for him to go buckwild offensively wasn't there anymore with competent pieces around him( though he did still manage to rack up his 50 and 60 point games in the 90's)

Even the 69 point Jordan in 1990 wasn't really at his peak scoring-wise; his jumpshot and post game got better after this. Personally I think that if Jordan at 28-30, at the peak of his offensive, athletic and mental ability, had the Bulls team he had prior to the arrival and development of Pippen, Grant, Phil etc etc, you'd have seen a number of 70 point games. As it was, the guy as a 2nd year player put up 63 IN THE PLAYOFFS on the Celtics at the peak of their powers, and he was still pretty much raw and relying purely on athletic talent at that point.

[All Net]

:facepalm Don't you trolls get tired of this crap?

[CHi1PriDe]

:facepalm Don't you trolls get tired of this crap?

That's what I'm saying
:facepalm

[pauk]

is this a ****ing joke?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

:lol

why do you even repost that?:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[EricForman]

NEW ISH RULE.

For all troll threads started by Kobe stans, don't even bother replying, just post a picture from 9gag.com

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/224425_460s.jpg

[EricForman]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/228756_460s.jpg

[LeFraud James]

Michael Jordan was leaps and bounds a better scorer.

Kobe at his peak, however, was the better offensive player.

[EricForman]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/228574_460s.jpg

[pauk]

Michael Jordan was leaps and bounds a better scorer.

Kobe at his peak, however, was the better offensive player.

hahahahahah at these kobetards

http://www.gamers-forum.com/imagehosting/474492e17ba51d33.gif

[LeFraud James]

hahahahahah at these kobetards

http://www.gamers-forum.com/imagehosting/474492e17ba51d33.gif

I would ask if you're mad, but seeing you type in ALL CAPS every other post already confirms my suspicions. :cheers:

You are and forever will be a complete nincompoop.

[EricForman]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/227192_460s.jpg

[Boston C's]

I'll go jordan here but ppl saying its jordan and not close are crazy its indeed very close

[scm5]

Put it this way...

Kobe on his best scoring day will put up more points than Jordan on his best scoring day. He just has more range which makes scoring easier when he's hot. Kobe could literally score 60 on majority pull up jumpers if he needed to.

However, Jordan will consistently put up more points at greater efficiency than Kobe would. Jordan attacks more and will post up more, creating shots at better efficiency. Jordan just has more stamina and can do it more consistently.

I would take Jordan over Kobe, but both are great choices.

Laker fan here btw.

[Dragonyeuw]

Put it this way...

Kobe on his best scoring day will put up more points than Jordan on his best scoring day. He just has more range which makes scoring easier when he's hot. Kobe could literally score 60 on majority pull up jumpers if he needed to.



Hypothetical scenario: 29 year old Jordan, physically, mentally, skillwise all at their peak. Put him on a crappy team...what kind of scoring numbers are talking here? Because Jordan's absolute peak coincided with him being on a competent team, which to some degree may have prevented us from seeing his true scoring potential. Actually, I think the 2nd threepeat Jordan might have been more likely to go off for 70+ points because of the automatic-ness of his midrange game, plus the closer 3-point line which made him a more prolific threat from 3point land. And he was still able to get to the rim...partly a product of how much you had to respect his jumpshot, even if he had physically gone past his peak.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Put it this way...

Kobe on his best scoring day will put up more points than Jordan on his best scoring day. He just has more range which makes scoring easier when he's hot. Kobe could literally score 60 on majority pull up jumpers if he needed to.

However, Jordan will consistently put up more points at greater efficiency than Kobe would. Jordan attacks more and will post up more, creating shots at better efficiency. Jordan just has more stamina and can do it more consistently.

I would take Jordan over Kobe, but both are great choices.

Laker fan here btw.

Not just that, but people are neglecting passing as part of "offense." Due to the type of shots Jordan got himself as compared to the type of shots Kobe takes, as well as simply being a better and more willing passer, he generally had more assists in his high scoring games than Kobe does. In fact, Jordan has 17 games of 50+ pts/5+ ast as compared to Kobe's 5 games of 50+/5+, and Jordan has 13 games of 50+ pts/6+ ast to Kobe's 4 such games. Jordan is also, as you mentioned, more efficient than Kobe in his games of 50+ points.

This is to say nothing of the fact that Jordan was significantly less ball dominant than Kobe (i.e., he didn't have the ball in his hands nearly as long as Kobe did) and thus doesn't stagnate offense to the same degree as Kobe does, and doesn't need 5-7 seconds to set up a good shot for himself like Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

As far as skills with the ball? Kobe is Jordan's equal and prime Kobe was arguably the best streak scorer ever. But Jordan was the better, more consistent scorer due to his superior off the ball play, athleticism and shot selection. I'd give Jordan the edge as a passer as well.


The thing when looking at Jordan's scoring vs Kobe's scoring, Kobe's prime as a scorer coincided with him being on a mediocre team, giving him a certain carte blanche to rack up phenomenal scoring games and streaks. Jordan's offensive game peaked( the outside jumpshot, the post game, the mental aspects) at the same time the Bulls evolved into a championship caliber unit. Thus the need for him to go buckwild offensively wasn't there anymore with competent pieces around him( though he did still manage to rack up his 50 and 60 point games in the 90's)

Even the 69 point Jordan in 1990 wasn't really at his peak scoring-wise; his jumpshot and post game got better after this. Personally I think that if Jordan at 28-30, at the peak of his offensive, athletic and mental ability, had the Bulls team he had prior to the arrival and development of Pippen, Grant, Phil etc etc, you'd have seen a number of 70 point games. As it was, the guy as a 2nd year player put up 63 IN THE PLAYOFFS on the Celtics at the peak of their powers, and he was still pretty much raw and relying purely on athletic talent at that point.

I disagree with you that 1990 Jordan wasn't Jordan's peak as a scorer. I think that may have been MJ at his absolute best as far as scoring(arguably as an overall player as well rivaled only by the 1991 and 1992 versions).

Jordan became less ball dominant and improved his range that season, he had most(if not all) of his athleticism, had gotten stronger and could already punish smaller guards in the post, but did a good amount of his damage playing without the ball.

His shooting ability was really good by that point. He had his best 3 point shooting season with the normal line and his 4th best FT%.

[The-Legend-24]

Kobe.

And IT Ain't IT Even Close

[Sampsonsimpson]

30 PPG on 50% from the field > 25 PPG on 45% from the field

[SuperPippen]

HURR DURR KOBE GOT 5 RINGZZ AND DA KILLER INSTINCT. DURR HURR HE DA GOAT
http://i.imgur.com/FYy0e.jpg

Typical Legend-24 response:

HATERZ GONNA HATE

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

[zay_24]

MJS career high= 69 in overtime against the cavs
Kobes= 62 in 3 quarters

Bean is the GOAT, get over it

[KingBeasley08]

MJ and it's not close.
this.

[kaiiu]

Kobe, not close

[zay_24]

81 points on 60% shooting - scoring, checc
12 3's in one game, range, checc
62 points, plus multiple 50+ point games while sitting out the 4th quarter

Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>da old dude

[zay_24]

Against the legendary Toronto Raptors defense!
out scored a team that made the finals by himself in 3 quarters

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe, not close

So a guy who averages fewer points, fewer assists, is a less efficient scorer, and is more ball dominant than another player is somehow is a better offensive player. Gotcha. :oldlol:

[Ronaldinho]

People saying Kobe are just lying to themselves.:oldlol:
http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/disgusted/grand/19378612_disgusted_gif.gif

[SuperPippen]

People saying Kobe are just lying to themselves.:oldlol:

No need to point out something so obvious.

They know MJ can be statistically proven by anyone with a modicum of brainpower to be significantly superior to Kobe, but they still constantly say shit like "81 points KOBE DA GOAT" in a desperate attempt to delude themselves into thinking that maybe..... just MAYBE.... Kobe is the GOAT. You know, as long as one doesn't look at the facts. Or use logic.

It's funny because if MJ had played for the Lakers and Kobe for the Bulls (or any other team) than these idiots would be blindly singing Jordan's praises as the GOAT instead of Kobe..... only they would actually have a case.

[SuperPippen]

out scored a team that made the finals by himself in 3 quarters

That game WAS more impressive than the 81 point game, I'll give you that.

[zay_24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVapB6CozvE&feature=channel_video_title

[SuperPippen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVapB6CozvE&feature=channel_video_title

.........and what does this prove?

[zay_24]

.........and what does this prove?
MJ never made a shot even close to that difficulty.

[zay_24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_CGxj3dHGA Go to 22 to 26 seconds. Even better shot.
lol, you need to post a tmac vid to counter kobes shot?

just more proof that bean>>>>>>>>.jordan

[SuperPippen]

MJ never made a shot even close to that difficulty.

Even if that were true...............

........................ again, what does this prove?

That one video negates the entire career full of obvious statistical superiority that MJ has over Kobe? Really?

I don't get why cocky, arrogant-ass Laker fans like you can't be content with knowing that you're fans of hands-down the greatest NBA franchise ever.

You've already got 4, maybe even 5 or 6 of the top 10 greatest NBA players of all time having succeeded with your team (Kareem, Magic, Kobe, West, Shaq, Wilt, etc.) but no............................ you've got to have the GOAT on your team, too.

:facepalm

[zay_24]

Even if that were true...............

........................ again, what does this prove?

That one video negates the entire career full of obvious statistical superiority that MJ has over Kobe? Really?

I don't get why cocky, arrogant-ass Laker fans like you can't be content with knowing that you're fans of hands-down the greatest NBA franchise ever.

You've already got 4, maybe even 5 or 6 of the top 10 greatest NBA players of all time having played for you, but no............................ you've got to have the GOAT, too.

:facepalm
Kobe is a better scorer than jordan-81>>>69 in overtime, 62 in 3 quarters, 55 in one half

better shooter- kobe set the NBA 3 point record, MJ shot 17% one season:roll:

better defender- Kobe will retire with more defensive teams than MJ

u :mad: ?

facts are facts...sorry

[SuperPippen]

Kobe is a better scorer than jordan-81>>>69 in overtime, 62 in 3 quarters, 55 in one half

better shooter- kobe set the NBA 3 point record, MJ shot 17% one season:roll:

better defender- Kobe will retire with more defensive teams than MJ

u :mad: ?

facts are facts...sorry

:facepalm

I shouldn't waste my time.

Congratulations, you've successfully trolled me. But just know that you are my biggest disappointment. Even guys like TheLogo, AlphaWolf, don't actually seem like they believe the garbage that they regurgitate. But you......... you're actually stupid.

There aren't enough facepalms in the world.

[Boston C's]

:facepalm

I shouldn't waste my time.

Congratulations, you've successfully trolled me. But just know that you are my biggest disappointment. Even guys like TheLogo, AlphaWolf, don't actually seem like they believe the garbage that they regurgitate. But you......... you're actually stupid.

There aren't enough facepalms in the world.

lmfaoooo I laughed out loud reading this response :applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe is a better scorer....he played in a different era for a majority of his career then MJ did....

Jordan was a 42% FG player in the modern era...Jordan stans attribute this to MJ bieng so Old he couldn't play....but the truth is he took 2 - 3 years off during his career to rest his body...his game at 38 was nearly identical to his game at 33...

MJ shot 50% only once or twice his final 9 seasons....

Kobe Bryant is a better more versatile scorer then Jordan ever was....and much more aesthetically pleasing player to watch at the offensive end also.



similar players in similar roles......with very similar results..Kobe just took it to another level.....no matter what marginal stats say.

[kaiiu]

They mad Zay. They mad as fvck.

Kobe>>

[Boston C's]

Kobe is a better scorer....he played in a different era for a majority of his career then MJ did....

Jordan was a 42% FG player in the modern era...Jordan stans attribute this to MJ bieng so Old he couldn't play....but the truth is he took 2 - 3 years off during his career to rest his body...his game at 38 was nearly identical to his game at 33...

MJ shot 50% only once or twice his final 9 seasons....

Kobe Bryant is a better more versatile scorer then Jordan ever was....and much more aesthetically pleasing player to watch at the offensive end also.



similar players in similar roles......with very similar results..Kobe just took it to another level.....no matter what marginal stats say.

They were similar players in similar roles with very similar results I'll give you that but kobe didn't take it to another level... they were both amazing scorers and again I'll say its close but I'll give the edge to M.J although I wont have a problem with anyone saying kobe either because they were that close and I'm not a ******ging M.J/Kobe stan to disagree with that

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ this zay_24 clown saying MJ has never hit a shot even close to that difficulty. Wow, epic fail. :oldlol:

Jordan was a superior offensive player: scored more ppg, was more efficient, averaged more assists, and was less ball dominant. Jordan didn't need to dribble the ball for 5-8 seconds like 2006/2007 Kobe frequently did to set up his shot, get defenders off-balance, or get a good look.

The largest difference between MJ and Kobe is and has always been their basketball IQ/court awareness/decision-making. Jordan read defenses and reacted instantly. Kobe, not so much. As an example, look at this game 5 vs. Cleveland from the '89 playoffs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnczeZDkWhM&feature=feedu#t=9m24s

Counting the amount of time he had the ball in his hands inside 30 feet (the effective zone for scoring) before taking the shot, we get these values:

2 seconds
6-7 seconds
1 seconds
2 seconds
2 seconds
4 seconds
1 second
5-6 seconds
2 seconds
1 second
2-3 seconds
3 seconds
8-9 seconds
2 seconds
2 seconds
2 seconds
2 seconds

So out of 17 FGM, you had 2-3 instances of MJ holding the ball more than 5 seconds before making a shot, with the vast majority being under 3 seconds. Good luck finding any game by Kobe (or, even more unlikely, Lebron/Wade) where he does the same. Jordan's game was simply much more elegant and efficient (in terms of economy of motion) than Kobe's, and that's because he had a higher bball IQ and far better court awareness. The above video is not an anomaly, btw.

Note that I counted the seconds from any time he had the ball inside 30 feet to when he got the shot off. In most cases the amount of time from when he caught the ball to when he made his initial move was less than 1 second or instantaneous (this is different than what I measured).

[Round Mound]

Another MJ and Kobe thred :facepalm :rolleyes:

Now he aint Mike!!! He want`s to be but he can`t

[eliteballer]

LMAO Loco. Using a clip showing such utter matador defense by Cleveland is not helping your cause...thats really what it comes down to. He played weaker defenses in a higher paced running league.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO Loco. Using a clip showing such utter matador defense by Cleveland is not helping your cause...thats really what it comes down to. He played weaker defenses in a higher paced running league.

Keep deluding yourself. :oldlol: He made the defense look worse than it was at times because he made his moves instantly and didn't dawdle around with the ball and let the defense locate him or load up on him. Jordan always made defenses react to HIM, rather than vice versa.

[andgar923]

Keep deluding yourself. :oldlol: He made the defense look worse than it was at times because he made his moves instantly and didn't dawdle around with the ball and let the defense locate him or load up on him. Jordan always made defenses react to HIM, rather than vice versa.

A point that seems to be missed by these idiots.

Yeah... if one holds the ball and dribbles and dribbles, or isn't quick enough to attack the defense then the defense looks better than they actually are. Because they adjust their rotation and stick to their schemes. But if you read, react before they do, you break down their rotation and defensive schemes.

MJ was known to read and react before the doubles could arrive, split, or pass and move without the ball to set up a better shot.

Kobe doesn't do this anywhere as consistently nor as good as MJ does, never has and never will.

So it wasn't that the defense MJ was facing were weak, he just made them look weak..... that's how good he was.

[eliteballer]

:oldlol: Jordan's era was one where the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Nash/Dirks Mavs. It's just the style of play.

You show a guy making a fullcourt dribble into the paint with 4 other guys watching him the whole way and doing nothing about it and claim its too quick for them to read...as they stand and watch him the whole time:roll:

This is what it is:

Kobe's a more skilled player. Even Phil said it.

He can hit tougher shots because he has a better jumper and better handles.

Meanwhile Jordan has played on less balanced teams offensively. At least when talking about the Lakers since 2008.

That's why he operated in the post more and closer to the basket. Kobe has all the post skills, but he doesnt need to go to it since he's had Shaq, Gasol/Bynum in the lane most of his career.

Thats not even mentioning how much easier it was to ISO your man without the zone.

Jordan played more off the ball to get his points. Kobe does play off the ball well...but its to get to his spots and then decide what to do because defenses are tighter on the man now both because of individuals but also because doubles and triples can come quicker and be sustained longer because there is no illegal D now vs taking a quick jumper or drive like Jordan.

You guys make it sound like Jordan was the only one shooting over 50% from the field then or that Barkley wasnt having a season shooting 60% from the field.

But as far as pure individual scoring skills? Its Kobe no contest because of the handle and jumpshot.

[Jacks3]

Jordan moved quicker because he didn't have the isolation ability/craftiness/variety Kobe had, or the handles, or the shooting ability. He could never pull off the moves Kobe has. Jordan stans are ****ing delusional. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Jordan was a superior offensive player: scored more ppg, was more efficient, averaged more assists, and was less ball dominant. Jordan didn't need to dribble the ball for 5-8 seconds like 2006/2007 Kobe frequently did to set up his shot, get defenders off-balance, or get a good look.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[andgar923]

:oldlol: Jordan's era was one where the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Nash/Dirks Mavs. It's just the style of play.

You show a guy making a fullcourt dribble into the paint with 4 other guys watching him the whole way and doing nothing about it and claim its too quick for them to read...as they stand and watch him the whole time:roll:

This is what it is:

Kobe's a more skilled player. Even Phil said it.

He can hit tougher shots because he has a better jumper and better handles.

Meanwhile Jordan has played on less balanced teams offensively. At least when talking about the Lakers since 2008.

That's why he operated in the post more and closer to the basket. Kobe has all the post skills, but he doesnt need to go to it since he's had Shaq, Gasol/Bynum in the lane most of his career.

Thats not even mentioning how much easier it was to ISO your man without the zone.

Jordan played more off the ball to get his points. Kobe does play off the ball well...but its to get to his spots and then decide what to do because defenses are tighter on the man now both because of individuals but also because doubles and triples can come quicker and be sustained longer because there is no illegal D now vs taking a quick jumper or drive like Jordan.

You guys make it sound like Jordan was the only one shooting over 50% from the field then or that Barkley wasnt having a season shooting 60% from the field.

But as far as pure individual scoring skills? Its Kobe no contest because of the handle and jumpshot.

:lol :lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Jordan was a 42% FG player in the modern era...Jordan stans attribute this to MJ bieng so Old he couldn't play....but the truth is he took 2 - 3 years off during his career to rest his body...his game at 38 was nearly identical to his game at 33...

:oldlol: I know you don't seriously believe this, so I shouldn't even bother, but if you're anywhere near the age that you claim, it's pretty pathetic that you spend so much effort trolling message boards. I'd expect that stuff out of kids who are probably 15/16 like The Legend 24 or pauk.

So Wizards Jordan could do this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qILAxbyOtQ#t=0m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFP2Rbhth1w&feature=related#t=9m31s

That's 33 year old Jordan with a bad back.

39/40 year old Jordan in 2003 was still able to average 20 ppg over an 82 game season, efficiency wasn't great as his 44.5 FG% was just slightly over the league average(44.3%) and his 49.1 TS% was below the league average which was a little under or over 52%, iirc, but definitely 52% rounded.

But that's without anywhere near the stamina, elevation or quickness that Jordan had in his prime, and the difference was massive. Everyone knows that.

[Vertical-24]

Being both a huge MJ and Kobe fan, this is a hard question to answer but I am going to go with.....Kobe.

Michael Jordan had developed one of the greatest offensive skill-sets of all time and evolved it nearly every season. You could compare no one to Michael skill-wise. He just had an arsenal of techniques that he could use to light you up at any minute and this one of the sole reasons why he is the GOAT.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand (and this is my opinion), took what MJ had put-forth, studied it intensely and in my opinion enhanced it. Kobe is perhaps the most offensively skilled player of all time and most analysts would agree (even Phil Jackson would attest to this).

Who could put up more points (or who WOULD put up more points given the opportunity) in this case, I would say Kobe. Kobe on fire WILL give you more points in a game then MJ would. This is not to say MJ neccessarily can't, but Kobe would out-shine MJ in this aspect imo. MJ would perhaps have better shot efficiency as someone had said prior to my response (he would take more shots from the left-right block, closer range jumpers, etc.) but he wouldn't put up as many points.

Kobe's nail in the coffin for me would be his shot-range. He is the superior shooter, in my humble opinion (and i'm a Jordan-stan), and could kill you much like MJ could from anywhere on the court and slightly better.

This is way too debatable if you put in shot selection, set-ups, timing, etc.

Then again....my opinion changes all the time. Tommorow i'll probably wake up and say, Jordan > Kobe offensively, but at this moment i'm gonna take Kobe's side. Goodbye now.

[eliteballer]

:lol :lol

The only thing we need to laugh at is when you said Rik Smits was better than Dwight Howard:roll:

[Sampsonsimpson]

Bottom line is 30/6/5 with 2 steals on 50% from the field and 6 rings >25/5/4 with 1.5 steals on 45% from the field with 5 rings. Its that simple. There shouldnt be any arguing. Kobe is great in his own right, perhaps the best in our era but he just isnt better than Jordan.

[Vertical-24]

Bottom line is 30/6/5 with 2 steals on 50% from the field and 6 rings >25/5/4 with 1.5 steals on 45% from the field with 5 rings. Its that simple. There shouldnt be any arguing. Kobe is great in his own right, perhaps the best in our era but he just isnt better than Jordan.

I'm better than Jordan :confusedshrug:

[sekachu]

Being both a huge MJ and Kobe fan, this is a hard question to answer but I am going to go with.....Kobe.

Michael Jordan had developed one of the greatest offensive skill-sets of all time and evolved it nearly every season. You could compare no one to Michael skill-wise. He just had an arsenal of techniques that he could use to light you up at any minute and this one of the sole reasons why he is the GOAT.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand (and this is my opinion), took what MJ had put-forth, studied it intensely and in my opinion enhanced it. Kobe is perhaps the most offensively skilled player of all time and most analysts would agree (even Phil Jackson would attest to this).

Who could put up more points (or who WOULD put up more points given the opportunity) in this case, I would say Kobe. Kobe on fire WILL give you more points in a game then MJ would. This is not to say MJ neccessarily can't, but Kobe would out-shine MJ in this aspect imo. MJ would perhaps have better shot efficiency as someone had said prior to my response (he would take more shots from the left-right block, closer range jumpers, etc.) but he wouldn't put up as many points.

Kobe's nail in the coffin for me would be his shot-range. He is the superior shooter, in my humble opinion (and i'm a Jordan-stan), and could kill you much like MJ could from anywhere on the court and slightly better.

This is way too debatable if you put in shot selection, set-ups, timing, etc.

Then again....my opinion changes all the time. Tommorow i'll probably wake up and say, Jordan > Kobe offensively, but at this moment i'm gonna take Kobe's side. Goodbye now.


When kobe is on fire, he is unstoppable but most of his high scoring game comes from against mediocre team in the regular season. MJ did it against better team and in the playoff. yes, they are close but I take MJ

[Collie]

Being both a huge MJ and Kobe fan, this is a hard question to answer but I am going to go with.....Kobe.

Michael Jordan had developed one of the greatest offensive skill-sets of all time and evolved it nearly every season. You could compare no one to Michael skill-wise. He just had an arsenal of techniques that he could use to light you up at any minute and this one of the sole reasons why he is the GOAT.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand (and this is my opinion), took what MJ had put-forth, studied it intensely and in my opinion enhanced it. Kobe is perhaps the most offensively skilled player of all time and most analysts would agree (even Phil Jackson would attest to this).

Who could put up more points (or who WOULD put up more points given the opportunity) in this case, I would say Kobe. Kobe on fire WILL give you more points in a game then MJ would. This is not to say MJ neccessarily can't, but Kobe would out-shine MJ in this aspect imo. MJ would perhaps have better shot efficiency as someone had said prior to my response (he would take more shots from the left-right block, closer range jumpers, etc.) but he wouldn't put up as many points.

Kobe's nail in the coffin for me would be his shot-range. He is the superior shooter, in my humble opinion (and i'm a Jordan-stan), and could kill you much like MJ could from anywhere on the court and slightly better.

This is way too debatable if you put in shot selection, set-ups, timing, etc.

Then again....my opinion changes all the time. Tommorow i'll probably wake up and say, Jordan > Kobe offensively, but at this moment i'm gonna take Kobe's side. Goodbye now.


It's not really debatable. MJ is better in just about every conceivable measure, unless you want to count "hypotheticals" like who can score the most points in 5 minutes type of stuff, which is pretty inane.

Is 12 more points of a career high enough basis to be a debate? I'm pretty certain it isn't. Does having more range make up for the fact that he isn't as talented a scorer within the 3 point line? Quality > Quantity of skills as far as I'm concerned.

I'm a man of facts, so I go with what I see and what I can measure.

It would be debatable if it was something like 30 ppg to 29 ppg and 10 scoring titles to 8 scoring titles. But as it is now, there is NO debate.

And that's just counting scoring as well. Passing is part of offense too, and Michael was also a superior passer, both in vision and creativity.

Basically this:


Bottom line is 30/6/5 with 2 steals on 50% from the field and 6 rings >25/5/4 with 1.5 steals on 45% from the field with 5 rings. Its that simple. There shouldnt be any arguing. Kobe is great in his own right, perhaps the best in our era but he just isnt better than Jordan.

[TennesseeFan]

Kobe is a better scorer, MJ is a better player.

[SuperPippen]

Kobe is a better scorer....he played in a different era for a majority of his career then MJ did....

Jordan was a 42% FG player in the modern era...Jordan stans attribute this to MJ bieng so Old he couldn't play....but the truth is he took 2 - 3 years off during his career to rest his body...his game at 38 was nearly identical to his game at 33...

MJ shot 50% only once or twice his final 9 seasons....

Kobe Bryant is a better more versatile scorer then Jordan ever was....and much more aesthetically pleasing player to watch at the offensive end also.



similar players in similar roles......with very similar results..Kobe just took it to another level.....no matter what marginal stats say.


:roll: I just love how you pull statements like these out of your ass and casually state them as if they're anything other than bullshit. So you're saying that, as long as you don't play basketball, you and your body don't age? As long as you don't play basketball, you actually age in reverse?!? :roll:

MJ scored 20 per game at age 40 in 2003, when the average team defensive rating was 103.6 and teams allowed 95.1 PPG, compared to 107.3 and 99.6 PPG in the 2011 season.

So, MJ at age 40 (just 8 years ago, which I'm PRETTY sure counts as "the modern era") scored just 5 PPG less than Kobe at age 32 in 2011 on roughly the same efficiency, while MJ faced a league in '03 that was tougher defensively as a whole than the league in 2011. And yet you say, "Jordan was a 42% FG player in the modern era"? :roll:

Also, MJ actually shot at or 50% for 5 of his final 9 seasons, discounting '95, as he only played 17 games then. Compare this to Kobe, who has yet to have a single season shooting above 47%!

Man, it's so fun to argue against you and your absurd logic, AlphaWolf. Your arguments are so ridiculous that they actually make me lol.

This whole Jordan vs. Kobe shit gets old, and some of you trolls are simply :facepalm - worthy, but it's always entertaining to have you and your half-assed excuse for rationale around, AlphaWolf.


Go ahead, make another asinine rebuttal, and I'll proceed to shoot it down yet again.









subsequent

[SuperPippen]

Being both a huge MJ and Kobe fan, this is a hard question to answer but I am going to go with.....Kobe.

Michael Jordan had developed one of the greatest offensive skill-sets of all time and evolved it nearly every season. You could compare no one to Michael skill-wise. He just had an arsenal of techniques that he could use to light you up at any minute and this one of the sole reasons why he is the GOAT.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand (and this is my opinion), took what MJ had put-forth, studied it intensely and in my opinion enhanced it. Kobe is perhaps the most offensively skilled player of all time and most analysts would agree (even Phil Jackson would attest to this).

Who could put up more points (or who WOULD put up more points given the opportunity) in this case, I would say Kobe. Kobe on fire WILL give you more points in a game then MJ would. This is not to say MJ neccessarily can't, but Kobe would out-shine MJ in this aspect imo. MJ would perhaps have better shot efficiency as someone had said prior to my response (he would take more shots from the left-right block, closer range jumpers, etc.) but he wouldn't put up as many points.

Kobe's nail in the coffin for me would be his shot-range. He is the superior shooter, in my humble opinion (and i'm a Jordan-stan), and could kill you much like MJ could from anywhere on the court and slightly better.

This is way too debatable if you put in shot selection, set-ups, timing, etc.

Then again....my opinion changes all the time. Tommorow i'll probably wake up and say, Jordan > Kobe offensively, but at this moment i'm gonna take Kobe's side. Goodbye now.


Glad to see someone who is also a big fan of both MJ and the Mamba. As an overall player, MJ is superior to Kobe, and THAT'S NOT A KNOCK TO KOBE (just stating that for anyone who thinks otherwise).

Also, I agree with you that in his prime, when Kobe was hot, he was arguably the most dominant scorer in NBA history, (with the exception of Wilt, of course) due to his great slashing ability and his superior long-range shot compared to MJ's shot.

When he went off on one of his dominant scoring runs, like the 81 point game for example, Kobe was just GODLY. However, even then, Kobe was pretty streaky, and MJ has always been a more consistent, efficient, and, IMO, better overall scorer.

Again, I have nothing but the utmost respect for both of them.

:cheers:

[jlauber]

Glad to see someone who is also a big fan of both MJ and the Mamba. As an overall player, MJ is superior to Kobe, and THAT'S NOT A KNOCK TO KOBE (just stating that for anyone who thinks otherwise).

Also, I agree with you that in his prime, when Kobe was hot, he was arguably the most dominant scorer in NBA history, (with the exception of Wilt, of course) due to his great slashing ability and his superior long-range shot compared to MJ's shot.

When he went off on one of his dominant scoring runs, like the 81 point game for example, Kobe was just GODLY. However, even then, Kobe was pretty streaky, and MJ has always been a more consistent, efficient, and, IMO, better overall scorer.

Again, I have nothing but the utmost respect for both of them.

:cheers:

Unfortunately, in most any of these "debates", it ultimately comes down to praising one particular player, and ripping the other. Same with the Wilt-Russell discussions. Is it not possible to accept these all-time greats for what they accomplished, without having to bash another one?

I have long admired Kobe. And I have been defending him in these MJ-Kobe debates for years now. IMHO, Kobe improved on some areas of MJ's game, especially from long range. And I have been blessed to have witnessed some of his amazing all-around offensive skills. Still, his CAREER just does not stack up to MJ's. So what? Had MJ never played, Kobe's career would be considered near G.O.A.T level, and even now, the vast majority of intelligent fans rank him in the Top-10 all-time. In fact, and in all honesty, there actually seems to be a pretty solid consensus for all all-time Top-10, which is amazing in itself. Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Kobe, and Hakeem, in no particular order. And, yes, Mikan, Oscar and Moses sometimes crack these lists, as well. Think about that...of all of the NBA (and ABA) players who have been playing since 1946, the same TEN players almost always come up in these all-time discussions. So, in the grand scheme of the NBA universe, these players are all within an eyelash of one another.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Still, his CAREER just does not stack up to MJ's. So what?


Kobe's LEVEL OF PLAY does not stack up to MJ's either. Not just his career resume.


So, in the grand scheme of the NBA universe, these players are all within an eyelash of one another.

Kobe is certainly not "within an eyelash" or Jordan. Maybe guys like Wilt and Kareem are, but not Kobe.

[Jacks3]

lol @ Kobe not being within a eyelash. Retard.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

81 is the most impressive scoring game I've ever seen. He's had several 50 and 60 point games where he essetially sat the fourth quarter. As a Kobe fan I still have to say Jordan was a better offensive player because he was more efficient. Kobe has unlimited range and he can hit the more difficult to damn near impossible shots. Both of these two guys are Gods on the court and legendary champions.

Jordan is slightly "better" in my mind but better has many definitions.

[Micku]

Jordan. He was more consistent with his point volume and more efficient than Kobe overall, career and prime. But Kobe was no slouch either tho. He played very similar to Jordan, and is dangerous everywhere on the floor.

[EricForman]

Yo, non Kobe-homers...

STOP REPLYING TO THIS THREAD. this is a stupid topic that isn't even worth discussion. you're just enabling the Kobe trolls by arguing with them.
instead, post that picture of that long cat and other sh*t off 9gag. this thread doesn't deserve words or basketball thoughts.

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/229562_460s_v1.jpg

[EricForman]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/224536_460s_v4.jpg

[gotbacon23]

am i the only one who doesn't get the whole "81 points and 62 points through 3 quarters, therefore kobe > mj" argument? it is statistically insignificant to just cherry pick their best games, especially when jordan's career scoring average is about 18% higher that kobe's over 1,000+ game sample size for each and his playoff scoring average is over 30% more that Kobe's in a sample size of over 170 games for each player. i mean, do people presenting this argument not know of sample sizes and statistical insignificance?

and the whole "top scoring game" argument pretty much falls out the window pretty quickly if you expand it to "top scoring games" check out their top 10 scoring games:

http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/points_50or_more.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_40-plus_point_games_by_Kobe_Bryant

jordan: 69, 64, 63, 61, 61, 59, 58, 57, 56, 56 = 604 points (5 overtimes total)
kobe: 81, 65, 62, 61, 60, 58, 56, 55, 53, 53 = 604 points (7 overtimes total)

i know what i did is not statistically significant since a 10 game sample is so small, but are we really gonna say kobe > jordan??

nobody is arguing that david robinson or david thompson are better scorers than MJ despite having higher career highs.

in terms of other sports, the 81 > 69 argument is the equivalent of saying that kerry wood is a better strike out artist than pedro martinez because he's had a 20 strike out game and pedro's high is only 17. or that corey dillon is a greater running back than emmitt smith because his career high in rushing yards in a game is 278 and emmit's is 237 and dillon has 3 career 200 yard rushing games and smith only has 1. be smart with your arguments people but don't rely too much on evidence from 1 or 2 games out of a whole career. frankly, its stupid and can lead to stupid conclusions like tony delk > kevin gartnett because his "career high" is higher. so effing stupid.

[Da_Realist]

For around 1100 reg season games, MJ scored 5 more points per game than Kobe and was more efficient doing it while also averaging more assists.

MJ had eight seasons >= 30 ppg (nine if you round up). Kobe three. If you combine the top ten scoring seasons between them, MJ has eight of them.

MJ also had six seasons scoring over 50% (eight if you round up). Kobe's never had a season over 47%.

And yet, if you combine the top ten assists seasons between them, MJ has seven of them.

Should be pretty clear. The question is who is the better offensive player, not who is the player with the highest scoring game.

[Dragonyeuw]

I disagree with you that 1990 Jordan wasn't Jordan's peak as a scorer. I think that may have been MJ at his absolute best as far as scoring(arguably as an overall player as well rivaled only by the 1991 and 1992 versions).

Jordan became less ball dominant and improved his range that season, he had most(if not all) of his athleticism, had gotten stronger and could already punish smaller guards in the post, but did a good amount of his damage playing without the ball.

His shooting ability was really good by that point. He had his best 3 point shooting season with the normal line and his 4th best FT%.

I don't agree, by the end of the first 3peat his shooting and post game were all better than in 1990, mentally he was more experienced, and he still had the athleticism. I'm talking about a combo of factors all coming together at once here.....1992>1990 in that aspect, but by that point he had a championship level team around him. I think the 1992-1993 version was very capable of putting up a 70+ point game, given full carte blanche.

[Toizumi]

I'd take the guy who scorers more points, at a better percentage, who hands out more assists and averages less turnovers.

[Calabis]

Kobe-81 points, 62 in three quarters

MJ-10 scoring titles, probably 12 if he didn't retire.


81 and 62>>>>>>10 scoring titles????

MJ is the far better and consistent scorer, Kobe is more dangerous when it comes to being hot(peaks), due to range.

Also u forgot this

15 seasons Jordan 32,292(with two missed seasons) 8 seasons of 30+

15 seasons Kobe 27,868(with the forgotten Kobe years, as the tards like to act like never occurred) 3 seasons of 30+

and lets not even get into when it mattered most...The Playoffs

[eliteballer]

Gotta love the deliberate lack of analytics from Jordan fans.

As far as career goes, Kobe came out of high school and was 18 his first year. Jordan turned 22 midway through his rookie season.

As far as percentages go, thats an era related issue.

As far as numbers, Kobe deferred to Shaq when they played together. Its why he was averaging 30 a game in 2001 when he wanted to take a bigger role in the offense before pulled back when Shaq started getting mad.

It whys why he only averaged 25 in 2002. He got married before the season and was content to let Shaq have his.

In 2004 theres the issue of Colorado and not having rehab from offseason knee and shoulder surgeries.

Then, from 2008 to now he's played on more balanced teams offensively than Jordan ever did.

When Kobe has had to pick up the scoring load(2003 averaging 30 while playing with Shaq, 2006/2007) he's shown he's at LEAST a match for Jordan as a scorer.

He averaged 35 a game in 2006 when he couldnt drive or jump because he had a busted knee that needed to be warmed up for 40 min before games.

In 2007 once he got over the knee surgery he averaged 37 a game post AS break.

[eliteballer]

read what I said about the knee kid, and the dude in your avatar shot 45% in his best years

[eliteballer]

Perimeter players in Jordans era shot what big men did in Kobes.

[OmniStrife]

2004

[Eat Like A Bosh]

You can't really argue on this one

[Dragonyeuw]

Perimeter players in Jordans era shot what big men did in Kobes.

Notable perimeter players( PG, SG, SF) in Jordan's era( career percentages; above 50% bolded):

Magic Johnson: .520
Isiah Thomas: .452
Tim Hardaway: .431
Mark Price: .472
Clyde Drexler: .472
Reggie Miller: .471
John Stockton .515
Anfernee Hardaway: .458
Scottie Pippen: .473
Mitch Richmond:.455
Dan Majerle: .431
Gary Payton: .466
Glen Rice: .456
John Starks .412
Latrell Sprewell: .425
Chris Mullin:.509
Dominique Wilkins: .461


Notable Bigmen (PF, C) in Kobe's era( career percentages; above 50% bolded)

Shaquille O'neal .582
Tim Duncan: .508
Kevin Garnett: .498 (close enough to 50%)
Chris Webber: .479
Yao Ming: .524
Dwight Howard: .578
Pau Gasol: .522
Chris Bosh: .493 (close enough to 50%)
Andrew Bynum: .569
Andrew Bogut: .525
Rasheed Wallace: .468
Elton Brand: .502
Dirk Nowitzki: .476
Al Jefferson: .502
Zach Randolph: .474
Carlos Boozer: .537
Amare stoudamire: .537

[Da_Realist]

Gotta love the deliberate lack of analytics from Jordan fans.

As far as career goes, Kobe came out of high school and was 18 his first year. Jordan turned 22 midway through his rookie season.

:confusedshrug:


As far as percentages go, thats an era related issue. Not really. It's a "how many shots you make vs how many shots you miss" issue.


As far as numbers, Kobe deferred to Shaq when they played together. Its why he was averaging 30 a game in 2001 when he wanted to take a bigger role in the offense before pulled back when Shaq started getting mad.

It whys why he only averaged 25 in 2002. He got married before the season and was content to let Shaq have his.

In 2004 theres the issue of Colorado and not having rehab from offseason knee and shoulder surgeries.

Then, from 2008 to now he's played on more balanced teams offensively than Jordan ever did.

And yet MJ, without deferring to anyone, averaged more assists than Kobe did.


When Kobe has had to pick up the scoring load(2003 averaging 30 while playing with Shaq, 2006/2007) he's shown he's at LEAST a match for Jordan as a scorer.

He averaged 35 a game in 2006 when he couldnt drive or jump because he had a busted knee that needed to be warmed up for 40 min before games.

In 2007 once he got over the knee surgery he averaged 37 a game post AS break.

MJ was in a situation where he was always the premier scorer in his offense yet he still averaged more assists than Kobe did working in a system where he saw less double teams early on and, as you stated, played "on more balanced teams offensively than Jordan ever did". Add in that he was more efficient, averaged less turnovers and grabbed more offensive rebounds and it becomes obvious. Jordan was a better offensive player than Kobe is.

[Dragonyeuw]

And yet MJ, without deferring to anyone, averaged more assists than Kobe did.




And that's with Scottie Pippen averaging 6 assists himself once he hit his peak.....

[Killer_Instinct]

Let's be real. It's MJ, and that shouldn't be debatable. He had a superior basketball mind, and had the ability and desire to get himself easier shots more consistently than Kobe. As far as it not being close, however, stop it. Kobe is easily the second greatest offensive guard in the history of the sport behind MJ, and he he is arguably the most explosive player to play the game on the professional level; capable of exploding for an absurd amount of points in a short span of time. That being said, MJ had intangibles on that end of the court that make him the better player on the offensive end.

[tontoz]

Perimeter players in Jordans era shot what big men did in Kobes.


Wade and Lebron are both perimeter players who don't have a problem shooting 50% in this era even though they have suspect jumpers.

[eliteballer]

:confusedshrug:

Not really. It's a "how many shots you make vs how many shots you miss" issue.



And yet MJ, without deferring to anyone, averaged more assists than Kobe did.



MJ was in a situation where he was always the premier scorer in his offense yet he still averaged more assists than Kobe did working in a system where he saw less double teams early on and, as you stated, played "on more balanced teams offensively than Jordan ever did". Add in that he was more efficient, averaged less turnovers and grabbed more offensive rebounds and it becomes obvious. Jordan was a better offensive player than Kobe is.

Averaging more assists is a product of two things:

Era(Jordan never even averaged 5 assists as a bull post 95) and the fact that when you dominate the ball more you will have more opportunities for assists. Why do you think LeBron averaged more assists his last season with Cleveland than in Miami.

[eliteballer]

Notable perimeter players( PG, SG, SF) in Jordan's era( career percentages; above 50% bolded):

Magic Johnson: .520
Isiah Thomas: .452
Tim Hardaway: .431
Mark Price: .472
Clyde Drexler: .472
Reggie Miller: .471
John Stockton .515
Anfernee Hardaway: .458
Scottie Pippen: .473
Mitch Richmond:.455
Dan Majerle: .431
Gary Payton: .466
Glen Rice: .456
John Starks .412
Latrell Sprewell: .425
Chris Mullin:.509
Dominique Wilkins: .461


Notable Bigmen (PF, C) in Kobe's era( career percentages; above 50% bolded)

Shaquille O'neal .582
Tim Duncan: .508
Kevin Garnett: .498 (close enough to 50%)
Chris Webber: .479
Yao Ming: .524
Dwight Howard: .578
Pau Gasol: .522
Chris Bosh: .493 (close enough to 50%)
Andrew Bynum: .569
Andrew Bogut: .525
Rasheed Wallace: .468
Elton Brand: .502
Dirk Nowitzki: .476
Al Jefferson: .502
Zach Randolph: .474
Carlos Boozer: .537
Amare stoudamire: .537

Dont use career percentages, they will be dragged down by late 90's when defenses were vastly improved...look at the percentages from mid 80's to early 90's...and you're forgetting guys like Dantley, Ellis, English etc.

[Da_Realist]

Averaging more assists is a product of two things:

Era(Jordan never even averaged 5 assists as a bull post 95) and the fact that when you dominate the ball more you will have more opportunities for assists. Why do you think LeBron averaged more assists his last season with Cleveland than in Miami.

It's also a product of being a better offensive player. More points, more assists, more offensive rebounds, better efficiency and less turnovers. You can make excuses for one of them, but how can Jordan be better at all this at the same time and not be a better offensive player?

[Dragonyeuw]

Dont use career percentages, they will be dragged down by late 90's when defenses were vastly improved...look at the percentages from mid 80's to early 90's...and you're forgetting guys like Dantley, Ellis, English etc.

I got those guys off the top of my head, I figured I'd left a few out. I'm just throwing out the numbers..... I'll let the board chew on those to whatever end.

[gengiskhan]

haha

This thread is a disgrace to human life!

MJ: 30 ppg reg sea
Kobe: 25 ppg reg sea

MJ: 33.5 ppg PO
Kobe: 25 ppg PO

MJ: 33.5 ppg FINALS
Kobe: 22 ppg FINALS

No comparison!

Competition gets tougher & better. MJ gets better.
competition gets tougher. Kobe starts getting worse & worse.

MJ GOAT
Kobe Top 15 GOATs.

thats the truth.


NEXT.....

[eliteballer]

He's not better at all of it. Everyone had higher numbers across the board back then.

There's no point in having this discussion if you're going to purposefully ignore the difference in pace, team situation, and defense.

I mean, Jordan's numbers cant compare to Wilt, Oscar, or a young Kareem, but does the discussion end there. No.

[tontoz]

I got those guys off the top of my head, I figured I'd left a few out. I'm just throwing out the numbers..... I'll let the board chew on those to whatever end.


The numbers were predictable. No matter how obvious it is that eliteballer is wrong he won't admit it.

:facepalm @ calling Dantley a perimeter player.

[Da_Realist]

He's not better at all of it. Everyone had higher numbers across the board back then.

There's no point in having this discussion if you're going to purposefully ignore the difference in pace, team situation, and defense.

I mean, Jordan's numbers cant compare to Wilt, Oscar, or a young Kareem, but does the discussion end there. No.

No one's talking about Wilt, Oscar or young Kareem, we're talking Kobe and Jordan :confusedshrug:

I'm not ignoring any of that. Jordan was better at all of it.

[gengiskhan]

No one's talking about Wilt, Oscar or young Kareem, we're talking Kobe and Jordan :confusedshrug:

I'm not ignoring any of that. Jordan was better at all of it.

The difference is really big

Jordan at 33 vs Kobe at 33

32ppg Reg sea v/s 25 ppg reg sea (7 pts differential)
34ppg PO v/s 25 ppg PO (9 pts differential)
35ppg Finals v/s 22ppg Finals (13 pts differential)

Jordan playing past his prime decreased his numbers across the board.

MJ really makes Kobe look crappy & cheaper immitator to put it bluntly.

[tontoz]

In addition to Wade and Lebron here are some other perimeter players that have shot 50% in recent years;

Tony Parker
Pierce
Deron
Chris Paul
Nash

Ray Allen almost did it (49%)

Yeah, it is sooooo much harder for perimeter players to shoot a good percentage in this era. :rolleyes:

[rmt]

Kobe-81 points, 62 in three quarters

MJ-10 scoring titles, probably 12 if he didn't retire.


81 and 62>>>>>>10 scoring titles????

Do you not see the idiocy of comparing the result of 2 single games to the result of 10 whole regular seasons?

Kobe is a pale "imitation" of MJ.

[Vertical-24]

Glad to see someone who is also a big fan of both MJ and the Mamba. As an overall player, MJ is superior to Kobe, and THAT'S NOT A KNOCK TO KOBE (just stating that for anyone who thinks otherwise).

Also, I agree with you that in his prime, when Kobe was hot, he was arguably the most dominant scorer in NBA history, (with the exception of Wilt, of course) due to his great slashing ability and his superior long-range shot compared to MJ's shot.

When he went off on one of his dominant scoring runs, like the 81 point game for example, Kobe was just GODLY. However, even then, Kobe was pretty streaky, and MJ has always been a more consistent, efficient, and, IMO, better overall scorer.

Again, I have nothing but the utmost respect for both of them.

:cheers:

I respect your opinion and yes its cool to finally see someone else who appreciates the both of them. All this Kobe - Jordan fan seperation is pretty crazy. So many MJ fans bash Kobe and so many Kobe fans find ways to bash MJ. I appreciate both talents almost equally. Easily my two favorite players of all time :cheers:

[andgar923]

In addition to Wade and Lebron here are some other perimeter players that have shot 50% in recent years;

Tony Parker
Pierce
Deron
Chris Paul
Nash

Ray Allen almost did it (49%)

Yeah, it is sooooo much harder for perimeter players to shoot a good percentage in this era. :rolleyes:

What most of these idiots fail to realize is that the fg% from past eras are higher because they didn't take as many 3pt shots, plain and simple. There was also more ball and off the ball movement back then as well, which created different opportunities for players.

Fg% were also better back then, not because the defense sucked, but because players didn't take these long distance shots like they do today. Past eras also had big men that shot from the 'paint' more. Combine higher percentage shots, with more ball movement and you have an era with higher ppg. If teams today shot less 3pt shots, passed the ball more, had big men that scored in the paint more, then you'll see the team ppg increase as well. Because well.... higher fg%= more points

These dumb mufuc%as don't know shit but looking at a f*ckin stat page and coming to wrong conclusions.

[Da_Realist]

These dumb mufuc%as don't know shit but looking at a f*ckin stat page and coming to wrong conclusions.

I'm surprised they even kept stats back in Jordan's "era". :D

[andgar923]

I'm surprised they even kept stats back in Jordan's "era". :D

They had to write them down on papyrus.

[OldSchoolBBall]

elityeballer is a clown who no sane person takes seriously. Kobe can't even outperform his contemporaries statistically, yet here he's stating that Kobe is a better offensive player than one of the top 3 offensive players in history (at a minimum)? Please.

[Big#50]

MJ scored 55 in the finals. What is Kobe's high in the finals? I think he had 40 once. Not sure. They're close but Kobe will shoot stupid wtf shots more often than not. You can't say Kobe's fg% is low because he shoots more threes. How about he shoots higher percentage shots instead. That's bad offense if you ask me. We should excuse a player for shooting ridiculous shots? I don't get it.

[Doranku]

This forum has really gone to shit lately. I don't think it's a coincidence that these fanatical Kobe haters like RRR3/Pauk/EricForman/genghiskhan are extremely immature. I mean, just reading their 12 year old-esque posts in this thread is cringeworthy.. :facepalm

[Nevaeh]

81 is the most impressive scoring game I've ever seen. He's had several 50 and 60 point games where he essetially sat the fourth quarter. As a Kobe fan I still have to say Jordan was a better offensive player because he was more efficient. Kobe has unlimited range and he can hit the more difficult to damn near impossible shots. Both of these two guys are Gods on the court and legendary champions.

Jordan is slightly "better" in my mind but better has many definitions.

These are the kind of statements that basically let Kobe off the hook, in terms of his bad shot selection, which ties directly back to B-Ball IQ. His shots wouldn't be half as "difficult" if he wasn't so hell bent on forcing them up. That 45% career shooting mark is tied directly to this flaw (yes FLAW) in Kobe's game.

[tontoz]

Kobe's career high True Shooting percentage (which takes into account 3 pointers and foul shots) is 58%. Jordan had a TS% over 60% for 4 straight years.

[Asukal]

Kobe truly has unlimited range, hell he can shoot from the backcourt so easily lol! Kobe's range is overrated, this is the very reason why he can never average a 50%fg in a season. Remember Jordan's interview about the 3 point shot and why he didn't want to excel in it. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

He couldn't have excelled at it even if he wanted to. Dude couldn't even shoot past 25 feet without changing his form and pushing the ball. Kobe is easily the better shooter.

[Asukal]

He couldn't have excelled at it even if he wanted to. Dude couldn't even shoot past 25 feet without changing his form and pushing the ball. Kobe is easily the better shooter.

Whether he could or couldn't we will never know. Yet he holds a remarkable performance of 6 three's in a half in a finals game. Yeah maybe he really can't excel in it. :pimp:

[Jacks3]

Kobe can't even outperform his contemporaries statistically, .
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

Kobe at his peak was a better scorer than Jordan, and he's a more naturally gifted passer too, which is why he's the one averaging more assists in his post-athletic decline phase. Once Jordan lost his ridiculous quickness and speed he became a much more limited passer,as he lost much of his penetrate-and-pitch ability. See 1998: 3.5 APG. :roll:

Kobe, meanwhile, still averaged 5 APG lost year despite a huge loss in quickness compared to his prime.

Jordan stans--u mad?

[andgar923]

Kobe at his peak was a better scorer than Jordan, and he's a more naturally gifted passer too, which is why he's the one averaging more assists in his post-athletic decline phase. Once Jordan lost his ridiculous quickness and speed he became a much more limited passer,as he lost much of his penetrate-and-pitch ability. See 1998: 3.5 APG. :roll:

Kobe, meanwhile, still averaged 5 APG lost year despite a huge loss in quickness compared to his prime.

Jordan stans--u mad?

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: At all of this, specially the 'passing' part.

[ThaSwagg3r]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: At all of this, specially the 'passing' part.
I have no idea why you and other people continue to take his posts seriously. I can't find or think one of his posts that have been correct or not a complete spew of bullshit.

[Asukal]

Kobe at his peak was a better scorer than Jordan, and he's a more naturally gifted passer too, which is why he's the one averaging more assists in his post-athletic decline phase. Once Jordan lost his ridiculous quickness and speed he became a much more limited passer,as he lost much of his penetrate-and-pitch ability. See 1998: 3.5 APG. :roll:

Kobe, meanwhile, still averaged 5 APG lost year despite a huge loss in quickness compared to his prime.

Jordan stans--u mad?

Keep on smoking that Kobe weed bro. Its doing you wonders, soon you'll be full retard if you are not one already. :roll:

[Jacks3]

Still pissed because LeBron>Wade huh. Get over it. :roll:

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: At all of this, specially the 'passing' part.
He's a better scorer, passer, floor-spacer, ball-handler and is more skilled.

Must suck for u. :roll:

[Jacks3]

Keep on smoking that Kobe weed bro. Its doing you wonders, soon you'll be full retard if you are not one already. :roll:
Jordan stans so :mad:

[Nevaeh]

He's a better scorer, passer, floor-spacer, ball-handler and is more skilled.

Must suck for u. :roll:

Right. Skilled his way to 1 whole MVP for his 15 year (and counting) career. Dude, let it go. He's joining the "Rest of us" group that Magic talked about, rather you like it or not.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe at his peak was a better scorer than Jordan, and he's a more naturally gifted passer too, which is why he's the one averaging more assists in his post-athletic decline phase.

No, he's averaging more assists because A) he plays with worse passers, and B) he plays significantly more pick & roll ball than Jordan ever did, and handles the ball more than second three-peat Jordan ever did. The Bulls actually ran the triangle offense way more than LA does. The absence of handchecking also allows Kobe (in his current form) to get into the lane more than he would have under late 90's rules.


Per36 ast/gm of LA's top 5 mpg players besides Kobe this year:

Fisher - 3.5 ast/per36
Odom - 3.4 ast/per36
Gasol - 3.2 ast/per36
Artest - 2.6 ast/per36
Bynum - 0.5 ast/per36

Total - 13.2 ast/per36


Per36 ast/gm of Chicago's top 5 mpg players besides Jordan in 1997:

Kukoc - 5.7 ast/per36
Pippen - 5.4 ast/per36
Harper - 4.0 ast/per36
Longley - 3.4 ast/per36
Rodman -3.1 ast/per36

Total: 21.6 ast/per36


Well would you look at that. :hammerhead: The Bulls played at a slightly slower pace, too.

[Jacks3]

Yup. It's so disappointing to see my favorite player go down as merely top 10 ever.

:cry:

[andgar923]

He's a better scorer, passer, floor-spacer, ball-handler and is more skilled.

Must suck for u. :roll:


What the hell is "floor spacer"?

[Jacks3]

So Kobe has a lot more passing/play-making responsibility while Jordan can focus more on scoring. Good to know. :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

So Kobe has a lot more passing/play-making responsibility while Jordan can focus more on scoring. Good to know. :oldlol:

Nice obfuscation and redirection, but anyone with a brain realizes that I just obliterated your previous "point."

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall] B) he plays significantly more pick & roll ball than Jordan ever did,
:oldlol: So wrong.

and handles the ball more than second three-peat Jordan ever did.
Probably cause he's a better ball-handler.

The absence of handchecking also allows Kobe (in his current form) to get into the lane more than he would have under late 90's rules.
It has nothing to do with hand-checking. It's because he's a much better ball-handler and is able to get by guys solely off of positioning, foot-work, and craftiness...unlike Jordan, who relied more on quickness. Try again son.

[andgar923]

No, he's averaging more assists because A) he plays with worse passers, and B) he plays significantly more pick & roll ball than Jordan ever did, and handles the ball more than second three-peat Jordan ever did. The Bulls actually ran the triangle offense way more than LA does. The absence of handchecking also allows Kobe (in his current form) to get into the lane more than he would have under late 90's rules.


Per36 ast/gm of LA's top 5 mpg players besides Kobe this year:

Fisher - 3.5 ast/per36
Odom - 3.4 ast/per36
Gasol - 3.2 ast/per36
Artest - 2.6 ast/per36
Bynum - 0.5 ast/per36

Total - 13.2 ast/per36


Per36 ast/gm of Chicago's top 5 mpg players besides Jordan in 1997:

Kukoc - 5.7 ast/per36
Pippen - 5.4 ast/per36
Harper - 4.0 ast/per36
Longley - 3.4 ast/per36
Rodman -3.1 ast/per36

Total: 21.6 ast/per36


Well would you look at that. :hammerhead: The Bulls played at a slightly slower pace, too.

Kobe fans reacting to FACTS....

http://www.ldinfo.com/images/scared.gif


http://images.inmagine.com/img/corbis/crb714/crb714037.jpg

[Jacks3]

Nice obfuscation and redirection, but anyone with a brain realizes that I just obliterated your previous "point."
And anyone with a brain realizes that your post just showed how Kobe had a ton more responsibility as a play-maker. Thanks for that, you moron. :oldlol:

[poido123]

And anyone with a brain realizes that your post just showed how Kobe had a ton more responsibility as a play-maker. Thanks for that, you moron. :oldlol:

everyones laughing at you, not with you :oldlol:

when your as dumb as you are(dont know you personally thank god) its not all bad. at least you are too dumb to know when you have been taken to the cleaners on your trolling :rolleyes:

Wish posters like you, fatal, alphawolf and the other ass clowns would disappear onto the childrens board. this site is for grown adults? But i guess you fill space on here, so your not completely worthless? :sleeping

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: So wrong.

No, it's not wrong, and a cursory examination of any Bulls game from '96-'98 and Lakers games from '10/'11 will show that you have no idea what you're talking about.


Probably cause he's a better ball-handler.

No, because his off the ball game isn't developed enough to play as well as Jordan did while other players assume more of the ballhandling responsibilities.


It has nothing to do with hand-checking. It's because he's a much better ball-handler and is able to get by guys solely off of positioning, foot-work, and craftiness...unlike Jordan, who relied more on quickness. Try again son.

Kobe relies a TON more on his ballhandling to get by guys than Jordan did. lol @ you trying to act like Kobe is some Jedi master in terms of attacking defenders. Jordan was FAR more savvy and skilled when it came to reading defenses and attacking defenders appropriately.

And again, for anyone who missed it, I destroyed your previous argument above.

[Jacks3]

everyones laughing at you, not with you :oldlol:


You keep telling yourself that, clown. :roll:

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]No, it's not wrong,
It's 100% wrong. Watch some games retard.



No, because his off the ball game isn't developed enough to play as well as Jordan did while other players assume more of the ballhandling responsibilities.
:roll:

No, it's because he's a much better ball-handler and a superior play-maker, so he doesn't need a off-the ball game. Plus, he has nowhere the amount of play-making talent Jordan had on his team.

He could if he wanted, but unlike Jordan...he was asked to do more than just score.



Kobe relies a TON more on his ballhandling to get by guys than Jordan did. lol @ you trying to act like Kobe is some Jedi master in terms of attacking defenders. Jordan was FAR more savvy and skilled when it came to reading defenses and attacking defenders appropriately.
No, Jordan relied a ton more on his off-the ball game because he was nowhere near Kobe as a ball-handler, shooter, or isolationist.

And yeah, Kobe is a Jedi master in terms of attacking defenders. Easily better than Jordan. Deal with it.




And again, for anyone who missed it, I destroyed your previous argument above.
You did no such thing. The only thing you did was show just how much more Bryant was asked to do as a play-maker/passer. Nice job.

:roll:

[j3lademaster]

Perimeter players in Jordans era shot what big men did in Kobes.

Then how come Lebron and Wade are able to shoot 50%? They are perimeter players of Kobe's era, are they not?

[RazorBaLade]

Then how come Lebron and Wade are able to shoot 50%? They are perimeter players of Kobe's era, are they not?

less threes, less shots, more fts?

[Dragonyeuw]

This is a ridiculous conversation. Both Jordan and Kobe were great at attacking defenders, and did it in different ways. Kobe came up during the 'and-1' era and his handles have a streetball-esque style to them. Jordan's handles were more basic but doesn't mean they were any less effective, especially since he employed more quick-strike moves which made the defense react to him, as opposed to him reacting to the defense. Different styles, and they each have advantages. Anyone who says 'nowhere near' when comparing these two are talking out of their ass, each has advantages and it's much closer than both Jordan and Kobe nuts care to admit. The gaps are small no matter who has the advantage in just about every comparable facet.They're two great all-time talents folks; aren't you tired of this bullshit back and forth yet??

What this comes down to is a generational gap; anyone who's too young to have witnessed a prime Jordan cannot fully appreciate the kind of player he was simply by watching youtube clips or maybe the odd 'greatest' game on NBATV. You would have had to watch him night in, night out; I was privileged to do so. Jordan stans need to accept that yes, Kobe is a talent and skill match for Jordan. Mostly it comes down to how each player utilizes the talent they had, the application of said skills so to speak.

[tontoz]

[QUOTE]
:oldlol: So wrong.

Probably cause he's a better ball-handler.

It has nothing to do with hand-checking. It's because he's a much better ball-handler and is able to get by guys solely off of positioning, foot-work, and craftiness...unlike Jordan, who relied more on quickness. Try again son.


If he is able to get by guys so easily then why does he take so many 3s when he is a career .339 shooter from 3?:confusedshrug:

[tontoz]

less threes, less shots, more fts?


In other words Kobe's lower shooting percentages are due to shot selection and not the era he plays in. That is the point.

FYI Lebron took 4.2 three pointers per game this season which just so happens to be Kobe's career average.

[OldSchoolBBall]

TJordan stans need to accept that yes, Kobe is a talent and skill match for Jordan.

He really isn't, though. That's the problem. Jordan was clearly a more talented player than Kobe.

[Da_Realist]

No, he's averaging more assists because A) he plays with worse passers, and B) he plays significantly more pick & roll ball than Jordan ever did, and handles the ball more than second three-peat Jordan ever did. The Bulls actually ran the triangle offense way more than LA does. The absence of handchecking also allows Kobe (in his current form) to get into the lane more than he would have under late 90's rules.


Per36 ast/gm of LA's top 5 mpg players besides Kobe this year:

Fisher - 3.5 ast/per36
Odom - 3.4 ast/per36
Gasol - 3.2 ast/per36
Artest - 2.6 ast/per36
Bynum - 0.5 ast/per36

Total - 13.2 ast/per36


Per36 ast/gm of Chicago's top 5 mpg players besides Jordan in 1997:

Kukoc - 5.7 ast/per36
Pippen - 5.4 ast/per36
Harper - 4.0 ast/per36
Longley - 3.4 ast/per36
Rodman -3.1 ast/per36

Total: 21.6 ast/per36


Well would you look at that. :hammerhead: The Bulls played at a slightly slower pace, too.

Kobe's last 3 years -- 26 ppg on 45%, 1.1 off rebs, 4.9 assists and 2.9 tov's

MJ's last 3 years (Bull) -- 30 pts on 48%, 1.6 off rebs, 3.7 assists and 2.1 tov's

MJ was still the better offensive player.

[Dragonyeuw]

He really isn't, though. That's the problem. Jordan was clearly a more talented player than Kobe.

I tend to agree; I'm just trying to play peacemaker. If I was a mod I'd delete every damn Jordan-Kobe thread that pops up because it's nothing but a troll-fest.

[kaiiu]

06- 08 Kobe was more skilled than MJ has ever been

[D-Wade316]

http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/3ytzdCRgLolhz8ObuYzaLw581260/GW270H15930

[Calabis]

Kobe at his peak was a better scorer than Jordan, and he's a more naturally gifted passer too, which is why he's the one averaging more assists in his post-athletic decline phase. Once Jordan lost his ridiculous quickness and speed he became a much more limited passer,as he lost much of his penetrate-and-pitch ability. See 1998: 3.5 APG. :roll:

Kobe, meanwhile, still averaged 5 APG lost year despite a huge loss in quickness compared to his prime.

Jordan stans--u mad?

What a moron....

Kobe a better ball handler and playmaker??

Career T.O. avg: MJ 2.43 > KB 2.94

Career T.O. Per 40 Mins: MJ 2.65 > KB 3.22

Lowest T.O. avg Per 40 Season: MJ 2.0 > KB 2.8

Highest T.O. Per Game Season: MJ 3.3 > KB 4.1

can see u now"Quit using facts!!!"""

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j454/oJayRocko/Gifs/tumblr_lqmllygvQi1qg863l.gif

[NumberSix]

Kobe

[Jacks3]

06- 08 Kobe was more skilled than MJ has ever been
Very true.

[OmniStrife]

Very true.
2004 Kobe was more skilled than Jordan could've ever dream of being.
Causing a team with 3 fellow HOFers to lose like ***** certainly takes immense levels of skill that Jordan never had

[aau]

No, he's averaging more assists because A) he plays with worse passers, and B) he plays significantly more pick & roll ball than Jordan ever did, and handles the ball more than second three-peat Jordan ever did. The Bulls actually ran the triangle offense way more than LA does. The absence of handchecking also allows Kobe (in his current form) to get into the lane more than he would have under late 90's rules.

what a load of crap . . . . .

he plays with worse passers and plays more pick n roll???!!!

lmao

the only thing you said that's correct is kobe handles the ball more , but
the reason is not as you suggested above , it's because he's not just
a SG . . . he's a combo guard who's led his team in both scoring and
assists 7 times including the 2009 and 2010 title years . . . . . .

conversely , , , pippen led the team in assists every year
the bulls won the title . . . . . . . kobe didn't have that

.

as for handchecking and getting into the lane , you can't be serious
show me one player that was kept out of the lane via handcheck
just one

.

which would you prefer . . . . . . .

facing handcheck in isolation or check-free in zone coverage

personally , i'd rather have a guy handcheck me 1-on-1 than to have
another defender or two , or three sitting & waiting for the blow by

but to each his own

[Jacks3]

2004 Kobe was more skilled than Jordan could've ever dream of being.
Causing a team with 3 fellow HOFers to lose like ***** certainly takes immense levels of skill that Jordan never had
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

keep believing what you hear like a sheep. :roll:

[Asukal]

2004 Kobe was more skilled than Jordan could've ever dream of being.
Causing a team with 3 fellow HOFers to lose like ***** certainly takes immense levels of skill that Jordan never had
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

what a load of crap . . . . .

he plays with worse passers and plays more pick n roll???!!!

Yes, as the data I presented CLEARLY demonstrates (+9 ast/per36 for the Bulls top 6 mpg players vs. LA's top 6). He also definitely plays more pick & roll than Jordan ever did, much less during the second three-peat. A simple look at the games will bear this out. You act like no one watches Laker games or has seen Bulls games. :oldlol: Kobe/Gasol have run a TON of P&R the last several years.


conversely , , , pippen led the team in assists every year
the bulls won the title . . . . . . . kobe didn't have that

You're right - he only had perhaps the most dominant player ever at his peak and then the best frontline in the league along with tons of offensive firepower. :rolleyes:


as for handchecking and getting into the lane , you can't be serious
show me one player that was kept out of the lane via handcheck
just one

Is this a joke?

[Jacks3]

Yeah, that monster role-player in Odom, and the 6/5 Bynum. Not to mention the worst starting PG in the league and the worst offensive SF in the league in Artest. Plus, no shooters. What fire-power. :roll:

What a moron.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Miller for 3]

http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/3ytzdCRgLolhz8ObuYzaLw581260/GW270H15930

lolwtf

[Miserio]

Manu is on twitcam and someone asked him "who is the hardest player to guard Kobe or Wade?" and Manu said "Kobe, by far".

[andgar923]

Manu is on twitcam and someone asked him "who is the hardest player to guard Kobe or Wade?" and Manu said "Kobe, by far".

So.

Artest, Battier, Bowen and basically everybody else have mentioned that MJ was harder to guard, and they didn't even play against him during his prime.

[BlackJoker23]

So.

Artest, Battier, Bowen and basically everybody else have mentioned that MJ was harder to guard, and they didn't even play against him during his prime.
lmao sure. wizards mgay aka the most inefficient 20 ppg scorer ever was harder to guard.

[ThaSwagg3r]

2004 Kobe was more skilled than Jordan could've ever dream of being.
Causing a team with 3 fellow HOFers to lose like ***** certainly takes immense levels of skill that Jordan never had
:applause: :oldlol: Nice.

[andgar923]

lmao sure. wizards mgay aka the most inefficient 20 ppg scorer ever was harder to guard.

They said it not me.

[D-Wade316]

Aren't you Kobetards tired with this crap? Because you aren't, this thread deserves another long cat.
http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/3ytzdCRgLolhz8ObuYzaLw581260/GW270H15930

[Sarcastic]

This long cat is better than both of them.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

This long cat is better than both of them.

http://n3t.net/humor/WideDog.JPG

[EricForman]

http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/3ytzdCRgLolhz8ObuYzaLw581260/GW270H15930