If Jordan never rested...how many rings would he win?

[TheLogo]

http://img.skysports.com/09/09/496x259/Michael-Jordan-drives-cigar_2363308.jpg

If MJ never "retired", or how I like to say rested his body because he wasn't mentally strong to play through the grueling season. How many rings would he have won?

I believe mj would win a total of 3 rings max. If he played through his years, his averages would drop and his body would have broken down.

Jordan in his career rested his body twice and that is a competitive advantage and helped him through his career when players are playing he is rehanging his body. He wasn't very durable.

Imagine if all the all time greats could do this...

[GS1905]

Your logic is stupid, but again you're just a troll.

Instead of looking at it that way(which is beyond stupid) look at it his way : He took 93-94 and most of 94-95 off and he still managed to win 6 rings. If Jordan never took those years off, Bulls would probably won in 93-94 and 94-95 as well.

So he would end up with 8 rings.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

If he had to go through the wear and tear of those seasons I would say anywhere from 5-7 rings. A lot of those 2nd three peat series were close

[TheLogo]

Your logic is stupid, but again you're just a troll.

Instead of looking at it that way(which is beyond stupid) look at it his way : He took 93-94 and most of 94-95 off and he still managed to win 6 rings. If Jordan never took those years off, Bulls would probably won in 93-94 and 94-95 as well.

So he would end up with 8 rings.

I believe he would be too tired to even make it past the 2nd round.

You have to remember that he rested his body and was able to come back and play at 40.

3 rings max because while teams were beating the crap out of each other he was rehabbing and playing golf.

[TheLogo]

If he had to go through the wear and tear of those seasons I would say anywhere from 5-7 rings. A lot of those 2nd three peat series were close

They were close but high mileage mj wouldn't be able to carry his team like he did when he came back fresh.

[guy]

If MJ never "retired", or how I like to say rested his body because he wasn't mentally strong to play through the grueling season. How many rings would he have won?

I believe mj would win a total of 3 rings max. If he played through his years, his averages would drop and his body would have broken down.

Jordan in his career rested his body twice and that is a competitive advantage and helped him through his career when players are playing he is rehanging his body. He wasn't very durable.

Imagine if all the all time greats could do this...

Probably killed his own father as well to justify resting his body.

[Clippersfan86]

Logo thanks for being the only source of humor lately on ISH. I seriously get a kick out of your threads. What's more funny is that people try to actually argue and debate about something you're clearly doing to get a rise out of people. :cheers: Good stuff.

[TheLogo]

A perfect example of this would be Kobe, I hate to bring him up but imagine if Kobe could take years off to rest.

He would be beasting that much more with the proper rest. Jordan, like Kobe, played deep into the playoffs and that cuts down your off season.

[Dragonyeuw]

I can see winning in 91,92,93, and 94. They'd have burnt out in 1995, maybe losing to a young Magic squad. And then maybe rebounded in 1996 and 1997 when they get Rodman. Don't think they'd have won in 98. Of course this all depends on how much Jordan's game would have been impacted by playing all the way through as opposed to taking a break.

[Dragonyeuw]

A perfect example of this would be Kobe, I hate to bring him up but imagine if Kobe could take years off to rest.

He would be beasting that much more with the proper rest. Jordan, like Kobe, played deep into the playoffs and that cuts down your off season.

If there's no season this year, you may get to see this. Kobe may come back at 34 in a year and be better than the past season...

[GS1905]

I believe he would be too tired to even make it past the 2nd round.

You have to remember that he rested his body and was able to come back and play at 40.

3 rings max because while teams were beating the crap out of each other he was rehabbing and playing golf.

Give it up. He could've come back and play after the 2nd 3peat but he didn't because Pippen decided not to play for the Bulls. Jordan already had 6 rings by then and accomplished everything. He was also 34 at that time so he decided to retire.

For his first retirement it doesn't have anything to do with "resting his body". If you look at it he retired after that 3peat. He already had 3 rings, finals MVP, regular season MVPs, scoring titles, etc. He retired because his dad was murdered earlier that year and it was his father's dream to see him play professional baseball. That's why he retired and signed a deal with Chicago White Sox.

Read For the Love of the Game before you make idiotic ignorant threads.

[Chicago Ted]

A perfect example of this would be Kobe, I hate to bring him up but imagine if Kobe could take years off to rest.

He would be beasting that much more with the proper rest. Jordan, like Kobe, played deep into the playoffs and that cuts down your off season.

Made me lol.

[TheLogo]

I can see winning in 91,92,93, and 94. They'd have burnt out in 1995, maybe losing to a young Magic squad. And then maybe rebounded in 1996 and 1997 when they get Rodman. Don't think they'd have won in 98. Of course this all depends on how much Jordan's game would have been impacted by playing all the way through as opposed to taking a break.

Good post.

I was thinking the same thing. It seems like the magic number is 3 Finals appearances before your body takes a toll on you. Look at the lakers who were eliminated early coming off 3 finals.

[lefthook00]

MJ really needed that break, more for his head than his body. But being the psychopath that he was, he could have just went crazy and kept winning all the way until 98, or win 3 out of the next 5 finals and still have 6.

[TheLogo]

MJ really needed that break, more for his head than his body. But being the psychopath that he was, he could have just went crazy and kept winning all the way until 98, or win 3 out of the next 5 finals and still have 6.

He may have but I doubt it.

He wasn't very mentally strong because he was so obsessed with winning and showing up his opponent. He could have been easily "u mad"....

The man definitely wouldn't have won any more than 3 rings.

[EricForman]

A perfect example of this would be Kobe, I hate to bring him up .

:oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

:oldlol:

:applause: I was going to quote the EXACT same thing :oldlol:

[TheLogo]

:oldlol:

It seems like rest and relaxation is the name of the game in life.

Jordan took that to heart....I just wished guys like Kobe would do the same thing so they can make another title run and call it quits.

When that happens it elevates your status like Jordan.

[Dragonyeuw]

Good post.

I was thinking the same thing. It seems like the magic number is 3 Finals appearances before your body takes a toll on you. Look at the lakers who were eliminated early coming off 3 finals.

I was thinking that too( how the Lakers flamed out). You have to figure that after a while going through the annual grind must take the edge off, in addition to the physical toll. I suspect without the time-off that the Jordan we saw in 98, who was at the absolute end of his prime and showing signs of slippage, may very well have showed up a few years earlier. I don't think 96 Jordan was possible without that 1 1/2 years off. You also have to figure that Jordan's retirement was beneficial in the sense of allowing Pippen to flourish and truly establish himself, and allowed for more of a 1a and 1b dynamic in the second 3peat than a clear 1 and 2 in the 1st 3peat. Pippen, people may forget, was himself playing MVP caliber ball in 1996, before he got injured and lost a bit of momentum.

[guy]

Good post.

I was thinking the same thing. It seems like the magic number is 3 Finals appearances before your body takes a toll on you. Look at the lakers who were eliminated early coming off 3 finals.

Cause thats what happened to Kobe, no one could do any better right? :oldlol:

Both the Lakers and Celtics in the 80s made 4 straight Finals at one point.

[LBJFTW]

Over 6. Countless players were mopping their brow saying "whew... we may actually win a title" when he took his little break. Kobe looked at his TV screen in awe.

-Jordan dominates
-Gets board and takes a break
-Comes back and dominates some more

Nuff said

[Big164]

A perfect example of this would be Kobe, I hate to bring him up but imagine if Kobe could take years off to rest.

He would be beasting that much more with the proper rest. Jordan, like Kobe, played deep into the playoffs and that cuts down your off season.
Kobe could've gotten plenty of rest if he simply allowed shaq to carry the team in 04 ring instead of chucking up 113 shots on 38% shooting.

Imagine how many rings Kobe would've gotten... He'd have 8 by now just like havilicek, and on fresher legs as well.

Kobe was never going to match mj in stats or ppg but had a decent shot at getting twice as many rings.

[SuperPippen]

Even if he never took a powder, I don't see him winning any less than 6 rings. Maybe 7, possibly even 8.

I think it's possible that he could have put together the greatest run of titles since Russell and the 60's Celts. With Pippen coming into his own and developing into an all-NBA player himself, it certainly would have been in the cards.

The only question is if he could have withstood Hakeem in his prime and young Shaq. I believe he could have.

[Miller for 3]

Your troll threads have been slacking lately.

[LBJFTW]

Even if he never took a powder, I don't see him winning any less than 6 rings. Maybe 7, possibly even 8.

I think it's possible that he could have put together the greatest run of titles since Russell and the 60's Celts. With Pippen coming into his own and developing into an all-NBA player himself, it certainly would have been in the cards.

The only question is if he could have withstood Hakeem in his prime and young Shaq. I believe he could have.

It definitely would have been in the cards. Were talking about Jordan and Pippen here.

[OmniStrife]

Comparing Kobe to MJ is basically like comparing a Toyota to a Porsche.
Both have headlights, taillights and 4 wheels.
Basically could appear the same to the untrained eye.
However are not the same, and the margin is rather large.
See the Toyota got towed by a Hummer for it's 1st three laps.





Oh... The Toyota is also a rapist.

[asdf1990]

probably 8 rings, 6-7 MVP, 8 FMVP and making hakeem a nobody in the history books like he did to barkley, malone, stockton, drexler and payton.

[TheLogo]

I was thinking that too( how the Lakers flamed out). You have to figure that after a while going through the annual grind must take the edge off, in addition to the physical toll. I suspect without the time-off that the Jordan we saw in 98, who was at the absolute end of his prime and showing signs of slippage, may very well have showed up a few years earlier. I don't think 96 Jordan was possible without that 1 1/2 years off. You also have to figure that Jordan's retirement was beneficial in the sense of allowing Pippen to flourish and truly establish himself, and allowed for more of a 1a and 1b dynamic in the second 3peat than a clear 1 and 2 in the 1st 3peat. Pippen, people may forget, was himself playing MVP caliber ball in 1996, before he got injured and lost a bit of momentum.

Your assessment is basically what I was thinking and I thought when making this thread.

If Jordan was durable or had the mental toughness to not quit and rest, the '98 Jordan would have shown up earlier and they would have never went on a second run like he did. Pippen should be given more credit for that second run, as well as Rodman should too.

I find it funny that these Jordan fans would assume he win 8 straight titles. I don't even think he wins more than 3, if it wasn't for him retiring to recoup his mind and body.

[Hondo]

I really think Jordan is a bum for retiring in 98. For me, he is not the GOAT, because he quite the sport 3 times. He missed two years of his prime, and he missed some later parts of his career where he could have really set himself far apart from Bill, Wilt, Magic, Larry and Kareem. But, to me he is on their level because we didn't get to see what would happen in 93-94, 94-95, 98-99, 99-00.

Jordan is constantly praised for being this tough "killer" type, but I see a quitter and a big baby, when he doesn't get what he wants.

It would have been interesting to see him go to the Wizards after the final championship in 98, or to go to the Lakers. How does our perception of him change if he wins 3-4 titles as Shaq's sidekick? What happens to Kobe's career? He surely would have benefited going up against Jordan everyday, but he might not have had the minutes necessary right away. Maybe Eddie Jones is traded for a killer of a power forward instead of Rice, with Jordan moving to the 3.

[LBJFTW]

Jordan would have made up whatever difference Rodman and Pippen lacked anyway. Would not have mattered. It amazes me how people somehow try to equate what Jordan would have done, based on their present day knowledge of Kobe. One had limitations, one didn't.

[TheLogo]

I really think Jordan is a bum for retiring in 98. For me, he is not the GOAT, because he quite the sport 3 times. He missed two years of his prime, and he missed some later parts of his career where he could have really set himself far apart from Bill, Wilt, Magic, Larry and Kareem. But, to me he is on their level because we didn't get to see what would happen in 93-94, 94-95, 98-99, 99-00.

Jordan is constantly praised for being this tough "killer" type, but I see a quitter and a big baby, when he doesn't get what he wants.

It would have been interesting to see him go to the Wizards after the final championship in 98, or to go to the Lakers. How does our perception of him change if he wins 3-4 titles as Shaq's sidekick? What happens to Kobe's career? He surely would have benefited going up against Jordan everyday, but he might not have had the minutes necessary right away. Maybe Eddie Jones is traded for a killer of a power forward instead of Rice, with Jordan moving to the 3.

Very true about him being a bum and a quitter.

The reason why he retired was because Phil and Scottie was coming back.

The Bulls didn't even want to resign Jordan either. Remember he didn't even retire, nobody signed him.

[LBJFTW]

Jordan was just that good that he could leave, and simply come back and recondition himself to win 3 more. I don't see any other player pulling it off. Just makes his career that much more impressive. :bowdown:

[BlackJoker23]

mgay was so overrated. he came back to get smacked around by shaq only to beg rodman to come to chicago to grab all the bricks he'd throw up. smh

[Jacks3]

mgay was so overrated. he came back to get smacked around by shaq only to beg rodman to come to chicago to grab all the bricks he'd throw up. smh
this

[DirtySanchez]

Hard one....I think what gave the Bulls the spark in 96 is when the added the toughness and boards of Rodman. Jordan would of not had that in 94-95....would Horace Grant stay with the Bulls those years? He went to the Magic to play with Shaq and some $$$$.

But who knows...we will never know.

[DirtySanchez]

Jordan was just that good that he could leave, and simply come back and recondition himself to win 3 more. I don't see any other player pulling it off. Just makes his career that much more impressive. :bowdown:


Ummm when he came back he got knock out of the second round of the playoffs by the Pacers I Believe. Jordan had to get back in to B-ball shape the Bulls picked up another Hall of Famer in Rodman retoll the team a bit and then they won 3 straight. Remember...basketball is a TEAM sport.

Dumb kids....

[Eric Cartman]

mgay was so overrated. he came back to get smacked around by shaq only to beg rodman to come to chicago to grab all the bricks he'd throw up. smh


spot on guy

[Droid101]

Lettuce be realism.

What NBA team has ever made four straight Finals?

That kind of physical toll is insane.


Props to Jordan and Kobe for making THREE straight Finals multiple times in their careers. :cheers:

[jlauber]

Lettuce be realism.

What NBA team has ever made four straight Finals?

That kind of physical toll is insane.


Props to Jordan and Kobe for making THREE straight Finals multiple times in their careers. :cheers:

Huh? Do the Celtics of the 50's and 60's not count? Hell, they WON EIGHT straight titles.

[Hondo]

Very true about him being a bum and a quitter.

The reason why he retired was because Phil and Scottie was coming back.

The Bulls didn't even want to resign Jordan either. Remember he didn't even retire, nobody signed him.

He could have had the best legacy ever had he gone to LA after his retirement and not retired between 3-peats.

Imagine this:
Finals MVP in 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98
Champion in 99, 00, 01, 02, 03

It might be hard to win every year, but imagine if this was his resume instead of quitting the sport 3 times.
-We might have been looking at a 13 time NBA champion.
-Kobe probably wouldn't be viewed as a top 10 player.
-Tim Duncan's legacy would have been severely tarnished (he might have signed with Orlando teaming with Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady to try meet Jordan, Shaq and Kobe in the finals)

[Droid101]

Huh? Do the Celtics of the 50's and 60's not count? Hell, they WON EIGHT straight titles.
Hey now, different era back then. How many regular season games did they play? Playoff games? How many plays were them just "holding the ball" and standing around because there was no shot clock yet?

Other than that team, what other team made four straight Finals appearances?

[Jacks3]

-Kobe probably wouldn't be viewed as a top 10 player.

false

[BlackJoker23]

Huh? Do the Celtics of the 50's and 60's not count? Hell, they WON EIGHT straight titles.
weak eras dont count. theres an asterisk on every title before 1973.

[Droid101]

Other than that team, what other team made four straight Finals appearances?
Well, I answered my own question, the 82-85 Lakers made four finals in a row (and the 84-87 Celtics).

So we're looking at some of the greatest teams of all time.

Three is great. Four is nearly impossible.

[jlip]

Edit...Didn't see the post above

[TheLogo]

If Jordan hadn't retire, I don't think there will be a 2nd 3peat.

Teams would have built there teams to combat Jordan but they thought he was gone.

[Boston C's]

Honestly theres not a single doubt in my mind that he would have won 8 straight... Imagine if the bulls didnt seperate in 98... I thought they could of possibly won another title or 2 with that team... possibly giving jordan 10 rings if he didnt retire the first time... then he can leave with 10 rings have better stats/accomplishments and not come back with the wizards... but this is all speculation... I see Jordan at least matching his six but in my opinion I think he wins 8 straight no problem

GOAT btw with this thread you officially are the best kobe troll in this board he would only be a 3 time champ really now :facepalm

[TheLogo]

Honestly theres not a single doubt in my mind that he would have won 8 straight... Imagine if the bulls didnt seperate in 98... I thought they could of possibly won another title or 2 with that team... possibly giving jordan 10 rings if he didnt retire the first time... then he can leave with 10 rings have better stats/accomplishments and not come back with the wizards... but this is all speculation... I see Jordan at least matching his six but in my opinion I think he wins 8 straight no problem

GOAT btw with this thread you officially are the best kobe troll in this board he would only be a 3 time champ really now :facepalm

Your theory may be correct but most likely wrong.

If you go back and look at Jordan's career, it would show that he took two breaks from basketball.

MJ kept his mileage low.

We would have seen '98 Jordan in '96 and MJ would have never came back to play at 40 either.

Basketball is a long season and I don't blame him for taking a break. The fans might blame him but I am not really a fan of his.

[TheLogo]

The tops shooting guard in history didn't quit on their team.

I will rank Kobe above MJ for this reason.

Kobe
West
MJ

[Hondo]

false

Kobe only had to battle Eddie Jones when he first showed up in LA, but imagine having to get by Jones and Jordan? He would learn a lot, but the Lakers 3 peat would have seen Jordan in the spotlight as 2nd fiddle instead of Kobe, and the 3 peat probably would have happened straight after the Bulls 3-peat in my scenario. Kobe would have had a slower start to his career, but who knows, maybe Jordan would have made him stronger. I can see a lot of fights at practice that's for sure. They're both talented and stubborn as hell.

[Boston C's]

Your theory may be correct but most likely wrong.

If you go back and look at Jordan's career, it would show that he took two breaks from basketball.

MJ kept his mileage low.

We would have seen '98 Jordan in '96 and MJ would have never came back to play at 40 either.

Basketball is a long season and I don't blame him for taking a break. The fans might blame him but I am not really a fan of his.

I don't understand how it would be wrong... I dont count his wizards days because the fact is if he didnt retire the first time he probably wouldn't come back with washington because his accomplishments would be better... your acting like the minute he won his third ring we would see an immediate drop off which is not good logic at all... if you wanna say that he would win like 5 rings instead of six fine even though i strongly disagree with that but the fact your sitting here saying if he never took a break he wouldn't win a single ring is absurd... hakeem should call Jordan everyday for the rest of his life to thank him for retiring because if Jordan didn't retire then Hakeem wouldn't get any consideration for top 10 GOAT players... Again I think in my opinion he would run off 8 straight... yea he was just that good... so we would be looking at 8 championships 8 finals mvps a scoring title or two possibly some all Defensive first teams all star appearances etc... I for one think its extremely impressive that he came back from retirement just to show the world that he could still dominate as he did but if you seriously wanna sit there and think he wouldnt win a single ring if he didn't retire then I cant take you seriously as a poster

[TheLogo]

I don't understand how it would be wrong... I dont count his wizards days because the fact is if he didnt retire the first time he probably wouldn't come back with washington because his accomplishments would be better... your acting like the minute he won his third ring we would see an immediate drop off which is not good logic at all... if you wanna say that he would win like 5 rings instead of six fine even though i strongly disagree with that but the fact your sitting here saying if he never took a break he wouldn't win a single ring is absurd... hakeem should call Jordan everyday for the rest of his life to thank him for retiring because if Jordan didn't retire then Hakeem wouldn't get any consideration for top 10 GOAT players... Again I think in my opinion he would run off 8 straight... yea he was just that good... so we would be looking at 8 championships 8 finals mvps a scoring title or two possibly some all Defensive first teams all star appearances etc... I for one think its extremely impressive that he came back from retirement just to show the world that he could still dominate as he did but if you seriously wanna sit there and think he wouldnt win a single ring if he didn't retire then I cant take you seriously as a poster

he never retired...he was rehabbing his mind and body.

all the GOATs never had the chance to do that because they were to competitive.

[Boston C's]

he never retired...he was rehabbing his mind and body.

all the GOATs never had the chance to do that because they were to competitive.

More like he was bored because it was too easy for him... or maybe his dad dying and wanting him to play baseball had somethin to do with it... I just don't understand why you seriously think that he wouldn't win another ring when its more then likely he would of won 8 straight... I'm sry but when you talk about the true GOATS like it or not around the world Jordan is the consensus GOAT... btw the only ppl who have an argument for GOAT are Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, and Russell... Kobe will never reach their level especially at this stage of his career you have to try and accept that and not try to rip Jordan for being as great as he is

[OldSchoolBBall]

What a freaking troll The Logo is. :oldlol:

[Big164]

he came back to get smacked around by shaq only to beg rodman to come to chicago to grab all the bricks he'd throw up. smh
Now this I can agree with! Mj doesn't beat a shaq led team w/o rodman crashing the boards.

Rodman taking the pressure off mj defensively and media wise did more than the 2 years off.

[ihatetimthomas]

OP usually trolling, but there is somewhat of a valid point. People think he would have won 8 straight had he not retired. I doubt that would have happened. Many of the series he played in the title runs were pretty close. I am not sure how well his body would have held up playing those 2 years where he was retired. That time off def. helped preserve himself. I say 5-6 rings he would have won, def. not more than what he has now.

[TheLogo]

OP usually trolling, but there is somewhat of a valid point. People think he would have won 8 straight had he not retired. I doubt that would have happened. Many of the series he played in the title runs were pretty close. I am not sure how well his body would have held up playing those 2 years where he was retired. That time off def. helped preserve himself. I say 5-6 rings he would have won, def. not more than what he has now.

spoken like a true knowledgeable fan of basketball.

[ukplayer4]

OP usually trolling





spoken like a true knowledgeable fan of basketball.




:cheers:

[imlmf]

he would have broken russel's record, with the momentum of 8 straight titles, he would have kept going for 5 more years. 13 in total

[gengiskhan]

The tops shooting guard in history didn't quit on their team.

I will rank Kobe above MJ for this reason.

Kobe
West
MJ

How about one of the SG in that list is a RAPIST & Uncoachable & jealous of his team mates success.

[SuperPippen]

The tops shooting guard in history didn't quit on their team.

I will rank Kobe above MJ for this reason.

Kobe
West
MJ

You know, you don't have to keep grasping at none existent straws. You don't have to keep making up idiotic reasons to rank Kobe over MJ on your list.

If you really want to deceive yourself into thinking Kobe was better than MJ, than that's your prerogative. Do as you please. You're a troll. No one with more than half a brain will respect your opinion either way.

[DMAVS41]

It depends.....if MJ never retired and kept his competitive drive then I think he wins 8 in a row...maybe 7 I guess...but the truth is that MJ had reached a level as a player by 93 in which he was almost impossible to beat in the playoffs.

If he kept his same will to win that he had lost after the 93 title.....I don't really see anyone beating him or the Bulls.

If its a question about if he doesn't rest and gets burned out, then I still think off talent alone he wins 6 or more in those 8 years. He and his team were just too good.....and once the playoffs hit he'd be locked in.

[EricForman]

people,

i understand the OP is an annoying troll, and i understand that the Kobe over Jordan claim is so laughably ridiculous that it makes you wanna come back with a ridiculous statement, too.

but please... lay off the rape jokes already. it's of poor taste, especially since nothing can be proven.

there are enough ways to get at Kobe for things he did on the basketball court. like his horrendous 2004 finals performance or the fact the greatness gap between Shaq and him during the 2000 title is probably the third biggest gap between best player and second best player on any title teams in the last 20 years (behind 94 Rockets and 2003 Spurs)

[jlip]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228628

[Jacks3]

there are enough ways to get at Kobe for things he did on the basketball court. like his horrendous 2004 finals performance or the fact the greatness gap between Shaq and him during the 2000 title is probably the third biggest gap between best player and second best player on any title teams in the last 20 years (behind 94 Rockets and 2003 Spurs)
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMV2]

8 straight easily.

[TheLogo]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228628

Here's a list you should follow:

1.) Didn't know a thread was made on this.

2.) That thread was presented poorly....one sentence....really.

3.) Compare my thread to his and you will see how a thread should be presented.

[EricForman]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


2000 Shaq was dropping 35/15/3 blocks every night in the playoffs while fouling out other team's big man and literally demanding at least two to three bodies on him everytime he touched the ball.

Kobe, in 2000, was just a good but inconsistent player who averaged 15 points on, what 40% shooting in the finals.

2000 Shaq is inarguably a top 3 most dominant/unstoppable force in the history of all basketball.

So yeah, the gap is MILES wide between the two.

YOU MAD?
:oldlol:

[TheLogo]

2000 Shaq was dropping 35/15/3 blocks every night in the playoffs while fouling out other team's big man and literally demanding at least two to three bodies on him everytime he touched the ball.

Kobe, in 2000, was just a good but inconsistent player who averaged 15 points on, what 40% shooting in the finals.

2000 Shaq is inarguably a top 3 most dominant/unstoppable force in the history of all basketball.

So yeah, the gap is MILES wide between the two.

YOU MAD?
:oldlol:

Insecure Jordan fans researching and bringing up Kobe's stats when the thread is about "can Jordan win if he didn't rehab his mind and body."

[EricForman]

Insecure Jordan fans researching and bringing up Kobe's stats when the thread is about "can Jordan win if he didn't rehab his mind and body."


I didn't need to research on those numbers, I know more basketball off the top of my head than you and your trolls combined.

Insecure about Jordan? I didn't even bother addressing that because there is no Jordan vs Kobe debate. I've been spending time on Kobe vs Lebron because there's at least an argument there.

[SuperPippen]

Insecure Jordan fans researching and bringing up Kobe's stats when the thread is about "can Jordan win if he didn't rehab his mind and body."

Not everyone who uses logic and reason while arguing is an "Insecure Jordan fan." Just thought I'd let you know.

BTW, you obviously know the reason the reason you made this thread was to get a rise out of posters and start arguments.

You can be a troll, that's okay, it's all good, every message board needs a good troll. Just try not to be a hypocrite too, K?

:cheers:

[Soothing Layup]

Jordan would have won 7 out of 8 and retired after losing his 8th. Jordan still plays even today and is pretty healthy and quick, I never saw a game where Michael Jordan was tired, it's unheard of.

[raptorfan_dr07]

If Kobe and his agent never demand a trade to LA and he stays in Charlotte like he was supposed to, he has ZERO rings and isn't even considered a top 50 player of all time.

If Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, or Vince Carter were drafted to the Lakers and played with Prime Shaq, they have a 3peat. Possibly even more since they would be content with feeding the big fella and winning.

If Lebron James played with Prime Shaq, they would go down as the greatest duo to ever play the game.

[TheLogo]

If Kobe and his agent never demand a trade to LA and he stays in Charlotte like he was supposed to, he has ZERO rings and isn't even considered a top 50 player of all time.

If Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, or Vince Carter were drafted to the Lakers and played with Prime Shaq, they have a 3peat. Possibly even more since they would be content with feeding the big fella and winning.

If Lebron James played with Prime Shaq, they would go down as the greatest duo to ever play the game.

prime example of not staying on topic because his hero isn't being criticized.

[RazorBaLade]

If Kobe and his agent never demand a trade to LA and he stays in Charlotte like he was supposed to, he has ZERO rings and isn't even considered a top 50 player of all time.

If Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, or Vince Carter were drafted to the Lakers and played with Prime Shaq, they have a 3peat. Possibly even more since they would be content with feeding the big fella and winning.

If Lebron James played with Prime Shaq, they would go down as the greatest duo to ever play the game.

get the **** back in your cave

[Dragonyeuw]

2000 Shaq was dropping 35/15/3 blocks every night in the playoffs while fouling out other team's big man and literally demanding at least two to three bodies on him everytime he touched the ball.

Kobe, in 2000, was just a good but inconsistent player who averaged 15 points on, what 40% shooting in the finals.

2000 Shaq is inarguably a top 3 most dominant/unstoppable force in the history of all basketball.

So yeah, the gap is MILES wide between the two.

YOU MAD?
:oldlol:

The chasm between the 2 narrowed in 2001, however. Kobe quantum-leaped as a player between the 2000 and 2001 seasons. This is why and when tension between the two started. 2001 Kobe put up some sterling performances in the 2001 playoffs against the Kings and Spurs, so while Shaq was the more valuable, the gap wasn't as wide as it was in 2000.

[Dragonyeuw]

And, sticking to the main topic, Jordan wouldn't have won 8 straight. And I'm a Jordan nut... the 60's Celtics accomplished their legendary run in an era of significantly less teams and shorter seasons. The modern game, with a grinding 82 game season and playoff format, isn't designed for a team to keep up that kind of year-in, year-out intensity over 5,6, 7 years. In one of Jordan's videos, he admits that he was burning out at the end of the first 3peat, and because of that he was considering retirement even before his father was murdered.

So taking that into account, if he was burning out in 1993, how on earth would he have managed another 5 straight titles??!! Someone would have taken them out. Even if Jordan was able to keep up his play, basketball is a team sport; The rest of the Bulls may very well have burnt out. As it is, the entire roster aside from Jordan, Pippen and Phil turned over from 1993 to 1996. Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, John Paxson, BJ Armstrong,Stacey King, Craig Hodges became Dennis Rodman, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Judd Buechler, Randy Brown, and so on. The ENTIRE team changed over, this would have surely disrupted any attempt to run off a string of 8 titles.

[LBJFTW]

Ummm when he came back he got knock out of the second round of the playoffs by the Pacers I Believe. Jordan had to get back in to B-ball shape the Bulls picked up another Hall of Famer in Rodman retoll the team a bit and then they won 3 straight. Remember...basketball is a TEAM sport.

Dumb kids....

:facepalm Nobody wanted Rodman at that time though. The guy was a freak show and the only people that could influence Rodman was Jackson and Jordan. LOL at the irony of you calling someone dumb. I was watching Jordan when you were just a twinkle in your mamma's eye.

[az00m]

Trollol

[guy]

7-13 titles. Yes, I said it. Crazy range, but here's why. First of all, I don't buy the Bulls having trouble being worn out and all. Jordan and Pippen were very well conditioned. These players even in the offseason are always working out and putting strain on their body and traveling all the time as well. They might have some more injuries during the season because or there minutes reduced and they could get rest that way. Jordan was an iron man after 1986. I see no reason why he couldn't have stayed healthy and durable the way Karl Malone and John Stockton were. Not say he definitely would've, but people are acting like it would've been impossible for one of the greatest athletes ever to keep it up. Lets also not forget, its not like he wasn't doing anything during his time off. He was playing minor league baseball traveling around the country on a bus.

I say 7 and not 8, because I do think the 95 Rockets would've had a chance. Lets also not forget though that the 95 Bulls wouldn't be what they were. People forget that during the 94 offseason, Grant was pretty much gone and the Bulls weren't looking to compete for a championship but were contemplating completely rebuilding. They were shopping Pippen around and a Pippen/Kemp trade was almost a done deal. They didn't care about a championship at that point. If Jordan was around, no way is Pippen shopped like that, and no way do the Bulls just do nothing about Grant leaving. They either keep him or sign a suitable replacement. And even with that being the case, I see no reason why they wouldn't have gotten Rodman since they got him for nothing and no one wanted him. Either way, the Rockets and Hakeem specifically were that good by the time the playoffs came that they would've been a really hard time and I would give them a chance.

After 98 is where I think age/mileage may have gotten to the Bulls. If they had won 8 straight to that point, maybe they keep the together for at least 1 season to go after the 60s Celtics record of 8 straight. So maybe they win in 99, and if they stay together after that, maybe they win in 2000 especially since Phil wouldnt be on the Lakers. Not sure after that. The 13 max is cause if the Bulls break up in 98 or 99, maybe Jordan goes to another contending team. Possibly the Lakers where his coach went? So at best, we're talking about maybe 9 titles with the Bulls from 91-99 and 4 more titles with the Lakers from 00-03 or with a retooled Bulls (who knows, maybe they somehow attract Duncan and T-Mac during that FA). Like I said, this is the best case scenario though.

[Dragonyeuw]

7-13 titles. Yes, I said it. Crazy range, but here's why. First of all, I don't buy the Bulls having trouble being worn out and all. Jordan and Pippen were very well conditioned. These players even in the offseason are always working out and putting strain on their body and traveling all the time as well. They might have some more injuries during the season because or there minutes reduced and they could get rest that way. Jordan was an iron man after 1986. I see no reason why he couldn't have stayed healthy and durable the way Karl Malone and John Stockton were. Not say he definitely would've, but people are acting like it would've been impossible for one of the greatest athletes ever to keep it up. Lets also not forget, its not like he wasn't doing anything during his time off. He was playing minor league baseball traveling around the country on a bus.



Jordan himself said he was burnt out...at 30. That was in 1993. The guy is an all-time great athlete, but he's not superhuman. Neither is Pippen. And sometimes it's as much about being in the mental frame of mind as it is being in peak shape. Jordan even challenged Jackson at the end of the 3peat to present him with challenges. He had none, for Jordan had done all there was to do. This is a guy that thrived on challenges, after proving himself beyond doubt the best player in the world, clearly the mental focus to continue committing to Basketball was no longer there.

So he retired....fast forward to 1995 and the Bulls were a different unit, and the league had a new group of stars coming into their own. Jordan had a challenge again. Come back at an age when most great guards start slowing, with a new team, reinvent his game, and beat the new up and comers. I think at most the Bulls would have won 4 straight 91-94, but I honestly think they'd have lost to the Rockets in 95. And I say that taking into account that the team would have been at the end of its rope by then as it was currently constructed, with Jordan playing throughout. If you took, say, the 92 Bulls against the Rockets...give me the Bulls. They were at their peak then. But I don't think a 95 Bulls team, coming off 4 titles with Jordan, would have withstood those Rockets. That was a team of destiny that year, and hell I'd even have to question if Jordan would have been able to match Hakeem's level of play at that point. Hakeem was legendary in that 95 playoff run, playing historic basketball.

[guy]

Jordan himself said he was burnt out...at 30. That was in 1993. The guy is an all-time great athlete, but he's not superhuman. Neither is Pippen. And sometimes it's as much about being in the mental frame of mind as it is being in peak shape. Jordan even challenged Jackson at the end of the 3peat to present him with challenges. He had none, for Jordan had done all there was to do. This is a guy that thrived on challenges, after proving himself beyond doubt the best player in the world, clearly the mental focus to continue committing to Basketball was no longer there.

So he retired....fast forward to 1995 and the Bulls were a different unit, and the league had a new group of stars coming into their own. Jordan had a challenge again. Come back at an age when most great guards start slowing, with a new team, reinvent his game, and beat the new up and comers. I think at most the Bulls would have won 4 straight 91-94, but I honestly think they'd have lost to the Rockets in 95. And I say that taking into account that the team would have been at the end of its rope by then as it was currently constructed, with Jordan playing throughout. If you took, say, the 92 Bulls against the Rockets...give me the Bulls. They were at their peak then. But I don't think a 95 Bulls team, coming off 4 titles with Jordan, would have withstood those Rockets. That was a team of destiny that year, and hell I'd even have to question if Jordan would have been able to match Hakeem's level of play at that point. Hakeem was legendary in that 95 playoff run, playing historic basketball.

I agree with alot of this, thats why I said the 95 Rockets could've won anyway. But after that, that would just provide Jordan with the motivation that maybe he didn't have before, just like the 95 Magic actually did, and they win another 3. Thats why I said 7 titles at the minimum.

[Dragonyeuw]

I agree with alot of this, thats why I said the 95 Rockets could've won anyway. But after that, that would just provide Jordan with the motivation that maybe he didn't have before, just like the 95 Magic actually did, and they win another 3. Thats why I said 7 titles at the minimum.

But then you'd have to wonder if not taking a break would have allowed for another 3 titles after a hypothetical 95 Rockets loss. Jordan was physically and mentally rejuvenated in 96, even if a Rockets loss may have 'mentally' stoked his competitive flames, it's anyone's guess as to whether his body could have withstood another 3peat if he hadn't taken a rest. I think 35 year old Jordan, in terms of basketball body age, was probably 33 because the break allowed his knees and joints a rest from the nightly hardwood pounding.

[guy]

But then you'd have to wonder if not taking a break would have allowed for another 3 titles after a hypothetical 95 Rockets loss. Jordan was physically and mentally rejuvenated in 96, even if a Rockets loss may have 'mentally' stoked his competitive flames, it's anyone's guess as to whether his body could have withstood another 3peat if he hadn't taken a rest. I think 35 year old Jordan, in terms of basketball body age, was probably 33 because the break allowed his knees and joints a rest from the nightly hardwood pounding.

Of course its possible, but I don't think it would've happened. Jordan always kept himself in great shape and like I said, I think the whole mileage thing in this case is overblown. Its not like players are just sitting on their ass when they're not playing NBA basketball. And in Jordan's case, he was playing a whole other sport traveling around the country on a bus. I know its not the same thing, but my point is he wasn't exactly "resting". Plus, maybe he would've suffered an injury or something that sidelines him or maybe the Bulls reduce his minutes the way the Spurs have with Duncan and the way the Lakers have with Kobe. Its possible he would've broke down physically. Its also very possible that one of the most durable and hardest working players ever could've kept it going. There's really no way of proving it either way so we can agree to disagree.

[Dragonyeuw]

Of course its possible, but I don't think it would've happened. Jordan always kept himself in great shape and like I said, I think the whole mileage thing in this case is overblown. Its not like players are just sitting on their ass when they're not playing NBA basketball. And in Jordan's case, he was playing a whole other sport traveling around the country on a bus. I know its not the same thing, but my point is he wasn't exactly "resting". Plus, maybe he would've suffered an injury or something that sidelines him or maybe the Bulls reduce his minutes the way the Spurs have with Duncan and the way the Lakers have with Kobe. Its possible he would've broke down physically. Its also very possible that one of the most durable and hardest working players ever could've kept it going. There's really no way of proving it either way so we can agree to disagree.

Exactly, there's no way to know one way or the other beyond mere guessing. I only have Jordan's own word to go off, that he was mentally worn out in 1993. And if he was having a hard time motivating *himself* at that point, it would have trickled down to the team, because it's well-chronicled how his competitive spirit drove his teammates. It may or may not have anything to do with whether or not he would physically break down, we can argue that point all day, but mentally he was losing it by 1993, he's so much as admitted that.

[jlip]

I'm happy to see that some people recognize that b-ball is a team game. How many rings MJ would have ended up with rests a lot more on just him playing. You have to ask yourself, how would the Bulls continue to be constructed. Does Grant leave as he did in '94? Do the Bulls make a move for Rodman if he does? Do all of these long postseasons cause injuries? Seriously, people, you don't just throw MJ on a team and they win. It may be portrayed in the sports conscience like that, but it's not the case. There are way too many factors to consider. I often ask myself, what if Shaq had left the Lakers after '02? Would we be asking the same question? After a dominating 3 peat with Shaq at the end of his prime and Kobe entering his, would we be asking, "How many titles would the Lakers have won if Shaq hadn't left?"

[Da_Realist]

Exactly, there's no way to know one way or the other beyond mere guessing. I only have Jordan's own word to go off, that he was mentally worn out in 1993. And if he was having a hard time motivating *himself* at that point, it would have trickled down to the team, because it's well-chronicled how his competitive spirit drove his teammates. It may or may not have anything to do with whether or not he would physically break down, we can argue that point all day, but mentally he was losing it by 1993, he's so much as admitted that.

It's also important to note that MJ was mentally fatigued due to his rising stardom and vanishing privacy, not basketball. Remember, this was right after the gambling scandal AND his father's death.

Also, he measured himself to his immediate contemporaries. It was important for him to win enough titles to be mentioned alongside Magic and Bird. The three-peat was important because neither of them were able to accomplish that.

And lastly, MJ was driven by challenges, not accolades. By 93, Bird and Magic had retired, he was king of the hill and had just won 3 straight titles in overwhelming fashion. He felt he'd done enough. He didn't need to match Magic's five. He didn't need to go after Kareem's scoring record. He felt like the quality of his career was on par with Magic's despite not having as many rings at that point.

How many does he win if the game was conducive to his competitive lust? Who knows? I don't think that with the Bulls core of MJ, Pippen and that fantastic coaching staff do they NOT win at least a couple from 94 - 98. One thing's for sure, though. He would have given the game many more "moments" and his stats across the board would undoubtedly be better than it already is. Quite a few more 50 point games, etc. If you look at his game in the 93 season and then in 96, there should have been a much more subtle progression there where we would have seen his game shift much more fluidly while still averaging 30 pts and 50%. That's 2 seasons (80+ games a piece) at a production rate somewhere in between his 93 and 96 seasons.

It would be interesting to project his career numbers by adding 2 seasons at his 93 (or 96) season production rate, subtract the 17 games from the 95 season and the 2 wizard seasons (since he wouldn't have a need to "comeback" after playing for 15 straight years).

[bizil]

I think the matchup that could have been scary for the Bulls woulda been the Rockets with Hakeem and Clyde. That team is built to give the Bulls serious trouble. Hakeem was at the peak of his career and Clyde was still in his prime. And they also had Horry, Smith, and Cassell around them. I think that team would have gave the Bulls their toughest Finals challenge.

[TheLogo]

I think the matchup that could have been scary for the Bulls woulda been the Rockets with Hakeem and Clyde. That team is built to give the Bulls serious trouble. Hakeem was at the peak of his career and Clyde was still in his prime. And they also had Horry, Smith, and Cassell around them. I think that team would have gave the Bulls their toughest Finals challenge.

I don't think that the bulls would even maKe it to the finals.

[LBJFTW]

In the 1996

[guy]

It's also important to note that MJ was mentally fatigued due to his rising stardom and vanishing privacy, not basketball. Remember, this was right after the gambling scandal AND his father's death.


This too. I don't think younger people understand just how popular Jordan was at his peak. Him and Michael Jackson were arguably the 2 most popular people in the world at one point. And on top of that he had the media constantly attacking his character and then his father not just dying, but being brutally murdered.

[Dragonyeuw]

It's also important to note that MJ was mentally fatigued due to his rising stardom and vanishing privacy, not basketball. Remember, this was right after the gambling scandal AND his father's death.

Also, he measured himself to his immediate contemporaries. It was important for him to win enough titles to be mentioned alongside Magic and Bird. The three-peat was important because neither of them were able to accomplish that.

And lastly, MJ was driven by challenges, not accolades. By 93, Bird and Magic had retired, he was king of the hill and had just won 3 straight titles in overwhelming fashion. He felt he'd done enough. He didn't need to match Magic's five. He didn't need to go after Kareem's scoring record. He felt like the quality of his career was on par with Magic's despite not having as many rings at that point.

How many does he win if the game was conducive to his competitive lust? Who knows? I don't think that with the Bulls core of MJ, Pippen and that fantastic coaching staff do they NOT win at least a couple from 94 - 98. One thing's for sure, though. He would have given the game many more "moments" and his stats across the board would undoubtedly be better than it already is. Quite a few more 50 point games, etc. If you look at his game in the 93 season and then in 96, there should have been a much more subtle progression there where we would have seen his game shift much more fluidly while still averaging 30 pts and 50%. That's 2 seasons (80+ games a piece) at a production rate somewhere in between his 93 and 96 seasons.

It would be interesting to project his career numbers by adding 2 seasons at his 93 (or 96) season production rate, subtract the 17 games from the 95 season and the 2 wizard seasons (since he wouldn't have a need to "comeback" after playing for 15 straight years).

Whatever the reasons for his burning out, my main point is merely to say that he was losing his edge at the end of the first 3peat. I'm aware of all the gambling scandals and everything else that took place around that time.

I agree about the challenge thing and I mentioned as much earlier. This is why he specifically asked Phil to present him with challenges...to no avail. The thing is, I hear often from some people that if Kobe wins one more title, he'll be considered better. What some don't realize is that Jordan was getting GOAT talk after 3 titles. That was when he had less titles than Jabbar, Magic, and same number as Bird. That's how transcendent he had become. In fact, Jordan was getting GOAT talk BEFORE he won his first title. It was premature, upon reflection, but that shows you *how good* he was for people to even start uttering that kind of thing without any rings.

As for what the Bulls would have won had he not retired, I predict 4 straight from 91-94, a loss to *someone* in 95, and at least 2 titles between 96 and 98. Which would put him at the same amount of titles he has now...6. *Maybe* he gets another 3peat and caps at 7. I don't see the Bulls winning 8 straight though. *Something* would have caught up to them, whether it be losing their mental edge, injuries, take your pick.

In terms of what we missed, had Jordan not lost almost the entire 86 season with a broken foot, not retired, and played through 2000, I'm sure he'd have broken Kareem's scoring record. I'd imagine he'd have at least 13 scoring titles, 6 MVPs, and I'll say 7 rings with matching Finals MVPs. I don't think we would have seen 'the Wizard' years if he hadn't retired.

[LBJFTW]

In terms of what we miss, had Jordan not missed almost the entire 86 season with a broken foot, not retired, and played through 2000, I'm sure he'd have broken Kareem's scoring record. I'd imagine he'd have at least 13 scoring titles, 6 MVPs, and I'll say 7 rings with matching Finals MVPs.

:applause: And that's being conservative.

[knickscity]

Had Jordan not took that break, I think he'd definitely have the two out of the three rings in the middle.

Possibly all three, Jordan would have had most likely 8 rings.

[LBJFTW]

Kobe's response after being told that Jordan wouldn't have won more than 3 rings if he had never retired:

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/lol/grand/7877887211.gif