Ben Wallace 2001-2004

[D.J.]

These are four of the great defensive seasons by any player, let alone a legit 6'7" player playing the 5.


2000-01
-13.2 RPG(2nd)
-1.3 SPG
-2.3 BPG(10th)
-6.0 defensive win shares(3rd)
-303 offensive rebounds(2nd)
-749 defensive rebounds(led NBA)
-1052 total rebounds(led NBA)
-186 blocks(9th)
-11.5% team's offensive rebounds(4th)
-29.6% team's defensive rebounds(2nd)
-20.4% team's total rebounds(3rd)
-94 defensive rating(5th)


2001-02
13.0 RPG(led NBA)
1.7 SPG
3.5 BPG(led NBA)
DPOY
All-NBA 3rd team
All-Defensive 1st team
7.2 defensive win shares(led NBA)
.019 MVP shares(10th)
318 offensive rebounds(2nd)
721 defensive rebounds(3rd)
1039 total rebounds(2nd)
278 blocks(led NBA)
12.9% team's offensive rebounds(3rd)
28.9% team's defensive rebounds(2nd)
21.0% team's rebounds(2nd)
92.9 defensive rating(led NBA)
11.6 win shares(10th)


2002-03
-15.4 RPG(led NBA)
-1.4 SPG
-3.2 BPG(2nd)
-All-Star
-All-NBA 2nd team
-All-Defensive 1st team
-7.9 defensive win shares(led NBA)
-.028 MVP shares(8th)
-293 offensive rebounds(led NBA)
-833 defensive rebounds(2nd)
-1126 total rebounds(led NBA)
-230 blocks(3rd)
-11.9% team's offensive rebounds(6th)
-34.9% team's defensive rebounds(led NBA)
-23.2% team's rebounds(led NBA)
-90 defensive rating(led NBA)


2003-04
-12.4 RPG(3rd)
-1.8 SPG(8th)
-3.0 BPG(2nd)
-All-Star
-All-NBA 2nd team
-All-Defensive 1st team
-Championship
-9.1 defensive win shares(led NBA)
-.020 MVP shares(7th)
-324 offensive rebounds(2nd)
-682 defensive rebounds(2nd)
-1006 total rebounds(2nd)
-143 steals(6th)
-246 blocks(2nd)
-12.5% team's offensive rebounds(4th)
-25.5% team's defensive rebounds(6th)
-19.1% team's rebounds(3rd)
-87.5 defensive rating(led NBA)




4 season average
13.4 RPG
1.57 SPG
2.99 BPG


Also in those 4 seasons, he never averaged more than 2.5 fouls per game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g23KfT3Rq0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzXzMW27MBg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRAlgw-jSag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuivG44plqQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy9gfx3TKQI&feature=related


:applause:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

And to think he was undrafted

[D.J.]

And to think he was undrafted


That he was. From undrafted to 4 time DPOY. :bowdown:

[SCdac]

not even sure where I have him all-time, but feel like he's generally underrated on this "what have you done for me lately" board. dude was the anchor to one of the best defensive teams ever, just a beast defensively. to think that both him and Bruce Bowen (also one of the the best defenders of the decade) were both undrafted is pretty crazy, but it's not to say they didn't improve a great deal at their craft from the time they were passed up to their best days.

[kaiiu]

He went to Tri C here to. :applause:

[LBJ 4 MVP]

That swat on T-Mac was nasty!

[Smoke117]

He was a beast defensively and seems to have gotten underrated as where he is all time defensively. I'd say he's right below Dream and Robinson as far as modern defensive players and the impact they had. The only thing is he only had about 7 great seasons. I still think it was good enough because how dominant they were to put him behind those 2 though especially with the peak you have posted.

[ThaRegul8r]

2003-04
-12.4 RPG(3rd)
-1.8 SPG(8th)
-3.0 BPG(2nd)
-All-Star
-All-NBA 2nd team
-All-Defensive 1st team
-Championship
-9.1 defensive win shares(led NBA)
-.020 MVP shares(7th)
-324 offensive rebounds(2nd)
-682 defensive rebounds(2nd)
-1006 total rebounds(2nd)
-143 steals(6th)
-246 blocks(2nd)
-12.5% team's offensive rebounds(4th)
-25.5% team's defensive rebounds(6th)
-19.1% team's rebounds(3rd)
-87.5 defensive rating(led NBA)

Just wanted to comment on this. Wallace's 87.5 defensive rating was the best mark ever recorded, and his 9.1 defensive win shares was the highest in 31 years, and the 12th-highest single-season total in NBA history. Only Russell (eight times), Chamberlain (twice), and Dave Cowens had more defensive win shares in a season.

Then in the postseason, Wallace led the playoffs in total rebounds (328), offensive rebounds (95), defensive rebounds (233), steals (44), total rebound percentage (20.3%), defensive win shares (2.8) and defensive rating (83.9), was second in total blocks (56) and third in win shares. His 2.8 defensive win shares were the highest in NBA postseason history, eclipsing the record of 2.7 established by Tim Duncan in 2003.

:applause: to the OP

[Rake2204]

My contribution to the topic:

Ben Wallace's Tip-Dunk Over Bryon Russell in the 2004 NBA Finals Clincher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwQfNrlNoC0

Ben Wallace's Tip-Dunk Over Shaquille O'Neal later in the same game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRkzVIKEvTI

Ben Wallace with an afro-swaying goaltend on Shaq (again same game): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nkgcSW7rY0

[Clippersfan86]

I made a similar thread few months ago and agree with you guys that Big Ben is greatly underrated on ISH. Top 5 all around defender in NBA history NO QUESTION. Where you rank them can be subjective but he belongs in the discussion for best defender. People look at the blocked shots but don't realize he also racked up a ton of steals for a big... and despite being 6'7 played elite man defense on 7 footers. Not only that but he was quick enough and athletic enough to switch out to the perimeter and lock up a SG or SF for possessions.

All of this while being undrafted as you guys said.

[Math2]

Wonderful, wonderful defender, paired with a splendid afro

[PTB Fan]

Ben Wallace is one of the best defenders of all time.

[DetroitPiston]

Dude was a powerhouse, but quite good at getting steals, too. I think that's been helping Greg Monroe, too.

What I hate nowadays is when any offensively limited player who is somewhat decent on defense starts getting comparisons to Big Ben just because of those same limitations. What they forget is that Ben was a monster on defense, a guy who played elite big men quite well despite his height.

That afro by the way was quite popular at Pistons games. It was amusing to see a bunch of people wearing Ben jerseys and afro wigs.

[ThaRegul8r]

What I hate nowadays is when any offensively limited player who is somewhat decent on defense starts getting comparisons to Big Ben just because of those same limitations. What they forget is that Ben was a monster on defense, a guy who played elite big men quite well despite his height.

"Most people" like simplism. One doesn't have to think that way.

[Maniak]

I wish there was more Ben Wallaces.

Especially the 'fro. Bring back the 'fro.

[ShaqAttack3234]

As far as defensive big men in the last 20 years or so, the only guys I'd put up there with Wallace in terms of anchoring a defense are Hakeem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard.

Now, there have been quite a few better post defenders, but that's typically less valuable than what Wallace brought which could make an impact every night. Obviously he was a phenomenal rebounder and shot blocker, but because of his energy and intensity, he was actually getting some MVP consideration despite not being a great offensive player(don't remember if it was '03 or '04, but I remember some bringing him up in MVP discussions).

When he first got to Detroit(and he wasn't even as good as he'd become), the Pistons became the 8th best defensive team after being just being the 9th worst the previous season. By 2003, even before Larry Brown became the coach, or Rasheed got there, they were the 4th best defensive team and the 2004 Pistons remain the most dominant defensive team I've ever seen, which is why they won a title despite being a mediocre offensive team.

I can't disregard Larry Brown as he's coached many elite defensive teams for years or Sheed's impact in making their defense even better, but the biggest factor was Big Ben. When you have a guy who is that great of a shot blocker who is also a dominant rebounder, can steal the ball and go out to the perimeter, chances are, you're going to have a really good defensive team.

He also did get offensive rebounds, and while the 4 per game he averaged were very impressive, he also tipped a lot of balls back so he got more second chance points than what you see in the box score.

And the numbers themselves are really impressive. As much as 11.4 defensive rebounds per game one year, 15.4 total rpg and an unbelievable TRB% of 23.2% while blocking 3.2 shots per game and getting 1.4 spg. I don't believe that numbers are the best way to judge a player's defense, but that should help people who didn't see Ben in his prime or pay much attention to him get an idea of what he brought.

I believe he should be in the hall of fame for what he accomplished. He tied Mutombo's record for most Defensive Player Of The Year awards, is one of only 5 players to lead the league in shot blocking and rebounding in the same season and he won a title as the best player on his team(not your typical championship team, but still significant).

While he was also considered a disappointment in Chicago(because of the contract), it's also worth noting that Ben made an impact there even though he was on the decline. In his first season, the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA, won 49 games despite being a mediocre offensive team and Ben's defense vs Shaq was a big reason why Chicago swept Miami. I'll also acknowledge that Scott Skiles was the coach, and like Larry Brown, he has a multi-team track record of coaching elite defensive teams, but Skiles was also there the previous season yet they weren't the best defensive team, they were only 7th. And the Piston team he left fell off defensively as well(both statistically and it was noticeable watching the games).

[ThaRegul8r]

As far as defensive big men in the last 20 years or so, the only guys I'd put up there with Wallace in terms of anchoring a defense are Hakeem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard.

Now, there have been quite a few better post defenders, but that's typically less valuable than what Wallace brought which could make an impact every night. Obviously he was a phenomenal rebounder and shot blocker, but because of his energy and intensity, he was actually getting some MVP consideration despite not being a great offensive player(don't remember if it was '03 or '04, but I remember some bringing him up in MVP discussions).

I'm glad someone other than myself remembers this. If I'd brought this fact up, I knew I'd be ignorantly laughed at.

I know I remember Ben Wallace being listed as someone's MVP choice in Sports Illustrated one year, but since I no longer have the issue, I can't cite it as proof, as I only go by facts, not what I "remember seeing."

[jlauber]

Pretty amazing stuff considering that Wallace was somewhere around 6-7, and couldn't shoot from five feet away. Had he led the NBA in rebounding in the 60's, and with his limited offensive skills, the majority of fans of the current generation would laugh at those that would claim that he could be such a force in the 00's. In fact, they would probably claim that he couldn't make an NBA roster in the 00's. And yet, that is exactly how Russell is viewed by much of the current generation. And, if you watch the limited footage of Russell that is available out there, you can clearly see that he was a considerably more skilled offensive player (including his passing ability.)

[millwad]

Pretty amazing stuff considering that Wallace was somewhere around 6-7, and couldn't shoot from five feet away. Had he led the NBA in rebounding in the 60's, and with his limited offensive skills, the majority of fans of the current generation would laugh at those that would claim that he could be such a force in the 00's. In fact, they would probably claim that he couldn't make an NBA roster in the 00's. And yet, that is exactly how Russell is viewed by much of the current generation. And, if you watch the limited footage of Russell that is available out there, you can clearly see that he was a considerably more skilled offensive player (including his passing ability.)

What has his shot to do with his defense? Have you ever heard anyone give him credit for his offensive skills? Ben Wallace was a defensive force, not offensive.

And I don't even understand why you as usual have to come to a thread and whine about the 60's.. And Russell was still a crappy scorer and yes, he had better offense than Ben Wallace.

But I don't really see why you are whining about people bashing Russell for his poor scoring skills while comparing him to Ben Wallace. Bill Russell is considered to be a top 10 player of all time and a top 5 center while Ben Wallace is no where close any list like that.. I have full understanding for people who bash Russell for his crappy scoring skills, he's the worst scorer by far in the TOP 10 all-time list...

And no one would laugh at Wallace for having a season where he grabbed 15 rebonds which is his career best, when the guy looked like this:

http://dmkimages.co.cc/_cacheimg/b/e/ben%20wallace.jpg

It's not like the 60's where the 6'5 Elgin Baylor had a season where he almost grabbed 20 rebounds per game..

[magnax1]

I'm glad someone other than myself remembers this. If I'd brought this fact up, I knew I'd be ignorantly laughed at.

I know I remember Ben Wallace being listed as someone's MVP choice in Sports Illustrated one year, but since I no longer have the issue, I can't cite it as proof, as I only go by facts, not what I "remember seeing."
Not that I wouldn't say he wasn't a top 5 candidate for MVP that year, but you also have to consider that people in the media do dumb stuff for attention all the time. Like saying Pau was the MVP halfway through last year lol.

[D.J.]

he was actually getting some MVP consideration despite not being a great offensive player(don't remember if it was '03 or '04, but I remember some bringing him up in MVP discussions).


It was '03. After 53 games, Detroit was 37-16(#1 in East) and Ben was averaging 14.6 RPG/3.0 BPG. Him, T-Mac, Kobe, Duncan, and KG were all getting MVP talks. That year, the award was wide open.

[Rake2204]

I've been watching some prime Ben Wallace lately. I have many early 2000's Pistons games on tape. He was just such a difference maker in so many different aspects of the game. I miss watching him play and as nice as some of his defensive statistics are, they don't really do him justice. I'm not making a direct comparison, but he reminds me of Dennis Rodman only in the way that each player put up crazy numbers, but still offered more than you could ever find on a scoresheet.

Good times.

[Bigsmoke]

As far as defensive big men in the last 20 years or so, the only guys I'd put up there with Wallace in terms of anchoring a defense are Hakeem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard.

.

ummmmmmmmmm....

debatable but Big Ben > Dwight on defense

better shot blocker, faster on his feet on pick&Roll defense, ect.

[The Macho Man]

Is it just me or are players who are great offensively and poor defensively get criticized way more than players who are great defensively and poor offensively?

[boozehound]

Is it just me or are players who are great offensively and poor defensively get criticized way more than players who are great defensively and poor offensively?
I think its just you. Offensive players get the glory and the spotlight. Defensive players get overlooked massively.



I am very glad ben returned to detroit to finish his career, despite the shenanigans by the other "pros" on the team.

Also, while his offense was clearly quite limited, dude was a winner and would get a score when we needed one through his hustle (especially in the squads pre-rip, chauncy and sheed).

[The Macho Man]

I think its just you. Offensive players get the glory and the spotlight. Defensive players get overlooked massively.



I am very glad ben returned to detroit to finish his career, despite the shenanigans by the other "pros" on the team.

Also, while his offense was clearly quite limited, dude was a winner and would get a score when we needed one through his hustle (especially in the squads pre-rip, chauncy and sheed).
No doubt offense gets glorified more and gets more attention in the media. But when actually discussing basketball I think it's different. Nash can't be brought up on this board without people criticizing his defense. Doesn't seem like the Wallace, Rodman types get criticized as much for their lack of offense.

Not tryin' to hate, Wallace was incredible. Just something that came to mind.

[StroShow4]

Ben Wallace with an afro-swaying goaltend on Shaq (again same game): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nkgcSW7rY0

Elevation.

[LJJ]

No doubt offense gets glorified more and gets more attention in the media. But when actually discussing basketball I think it's different. Nash can't be brought up on this board without people criticizing his defense. Doesn't seem like the Wallace, Rodman types get criticized as much for their lack of offense.

Not tryin' to hate, Wallace was incredible. Just something that came to mind.

Ben Wallace also never won two MVP's. If he did, maybe you'd have a point.

[DuMa]

should have never left the pistons in the first place.

and yes he should be in the Hall. always love him for stopping the farce that was the 2004 Lakers.

[boozehound]

No doubt offense gets glorified more and gets more attention in the media. But when actually discussing basketball I think it's different. Nash can't be brought up on this board without people criticizing his defense. Doesn't seem like the Wallace, Rodman types get criticized as much for their lack of offense.

Not tryin' to hate, Wallace was incredible. Just something that came to mind.
that may be so. I would argue that both nash and wallace were/are transcendent players. I was thinking more like, say, reggie evans (not really top defender, but incredible rebounder) vs brandon jennings.

[LJJ]

should have never left the pistons in the first place.

Of course he should have. He made as much money during the three years of that Chicago contract as the entire rest of his 14 season career combined.

[Bigsmoke]

Of course he should have. He made as much money during the three years of that Chicago contract as the entire rest of his 14 season career combined.

dont mention it.

16 millions a year.:mad:

[Detroit]

:bowdown: One of the greatest players to don a Detroit Pistons jersey:bowdown:

[gasolina]

:applause: to the OP for bringing Ben up. One of my favorite players of all time and was a joy (pain) to play (against) in NBA 2K.

However, I don't get why people give him props for being only 6'7.

It's the same with Rodman, Chuck, Iverson, or any other undersized player. Part of the reason they were so good is because they wever very quick for their position and strong / athletic enough that they could get away with it. Put a couple of inches on those guys and they'd be a step slower and may not be the elite players we know now.

It's the same as "what if Chris Bosh was 6'6 and kept all that mass, maybe he'd be less soft and actually play inside"

[hoopaddict08]

I miss prime Wallace, along with the Wallace and Wallace front-court. Those were the days.

[MeLO MvP 15]

I love Ben Wallace... he is a prime example of how hard work is more important than talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRAlgw-jSag
:bowdown: @ #9 specifically

[Rake2204]

Elevation.
Seriously. Pretty insane replay angle there.

[D.J.]

Is it just me or are players who are great offensively and poor defensively get criticized way more than players who are great defensively and poor offensively?


Defense wins championships. Someone like Nash(great offense/folding chair-esque defense) deserves the criticism because his lack of D is why he's never been to the Finals.

[Rake2204]

Dug deeper into the vault for these two (two of 19 Pistons blocks that night):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK8ya2zof9Q

Notice the score with 50 seconds left in the third versus the score 7 minutes later.

[Rake2204]

Came across another clip that sort of personifies what Ben was all about. People will surely remember him as a great defender and shot blocker. But his presence was felt equally so throughout the Pistons organization for the amount of times he was able to keep possessions alive on offense with his tips or boards. He'd then often cause havoc after a made basket by pressuring the inbounder or, in this case, by racing back down the court in time to make a play on the other end.

Part of what made Ben so great at what he did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJGF333658g&feature=youtu.be

[Teanett]

As far as defensive big men in the last 20 years or so, the only guys I'd put up there with Wallace in terms of anchoring a defense are Hakeem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/files/original/dikembe_finger2.jpg
NO, NO, NO!

[Apocalyptic0n3]

I sat in Rebound Row once. One of the coolest things in the world sitting in the middle of that row knowing that each rebound the man got was one seat closer to you getting a t-shirt.

[Bigsmoke]

he cant make free throws.

[D-Wade316]

One of the best defensive anchors of all-time, right up there with Russell, Duncan, Thurmond, Eaton, Wilt, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning, and Garnett.

[Bigsmoke]

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/files/original/dikembe_finger2.jpg
NO, NO, NO!

not only that

Ben Wallace > Dwight on defense.

[D-Wade316]

Defensive peak:
Hakeem - 94
Robinson - 91
Eaton - 89
Mourning - 97
Mutombo - 99
Ewing - 93 (anchored the best defensive team of all-time relative to league average)
Wallace - 04
Duncan - 04
Russell - 64 (+9.2 defensive rating :bowdown:)
Wilt - 64

[Rake2204]

Thought this would be a good thread in which to share this clip - Ben Wallace blocking an Hakeem Olajuwon dunk attempt. Obviously, to some, this will only half count, since it's from Hakeem's Toronto days but still, Hakeem was going for it all on this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fegi_jQyexM

[fsvr54]

One of my all time faves. Pistons should have repeated in 2005.

[Smoke117]

Defensive peak:
Hakeem - 94 Wrong.
Robinson - 91 Wrong.
Eaton - 89
Mourning - 97
Mutombo - 99
Ewing - 93 (anchored the best defensive team of all-time relative to league average)
Wallace - 04
Duncan - 04
Russell - 64 (+9.2 defensive rating :bowdown:)
Wilt - 64

Hakeem - 90
Robinson - 92

[Freedom Kid7]

Pretty amazing stuff considering that Wallace was somewhere around 6-7, and couldn't shoot from five feet away. Had he led the NBA in rebounding in the 60's, and with his limited offensive skills, the majority of fans of the current generation would laugh at those that would claim that he could be such a force in the 00's. In fact, they would probably claim that he couldn't make an NBA roster in the 00's. And yet, that is exactly how Russell is viewed by much of the current generation. And, if you watch the limited footage of Russell that is available out there, you can clearly see that he was a considerably more skilled offensive player (including his passing ability.)
I miss you.

[Pushxx]

As far as defensive big men in the last 20 years or so, the only guys I'd put up there with Wallace in terms of anchoring a defense are Hakeem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard

WTF? No Kevin Garnett? :eek: :biggums: :facepalm

[Force]

I was listening to Mike and Mike a while back and they scoffed at the idea of Ben making the HOF. Jalen Rose was the one saying he can make it but the hosts weren't buying it at all. Defense is half of the game and for a good stretch Ben was the best at it.

To me he is EASILY a HOF, not even debatable.

[Toizumi]

I was listening to Mike and Mike a while back and they scoffed at the idea of Ben making the HOF. Jalen Rose was the one saying he can make it but the hosts weren't buying it at all. Defense is half of the game and for a good stretch Ben was the best at it.

To me he is EASILY a HOF, not even debatable.

Ben Wallace, in my opinion, should definitely make the hall of fame.

Accomplishments:
- 4 time all star
- 4 time DPOY
- 5 time All NBA (no first teams)
- 6 time all defense (five first teams)
- 2 rebounding titles
- 1 time leader in BPG
- 1 NBA title
- 4 straight conference finals (including 2 finals appaerances)

Ben Wallace was one of the emotional leaders of that great Detroit team. His averages in Detroit and his impact overall was great. He sorta failed after leaving Detroit (there were very high expectations, especially in Chicago) and he was overpaid, but still one of the best defenders and rebounders in the league..
He should be honoured for being a hard worker and the defensive anchor for one of the best teams of the decade.

[L.A. Jazz]

Ben Wallace, in my opinion, should definitely make the hall of fame.

Accomplishments:
- 4 time all star
- 4 time DPOY
- 5 time All NBA (no first teams)
- 6 time all defense (five first teams)
- 2 rebounding titles
- 1 time leader in BPG
- 1 NBA title
- 4 straight conference finals (including 2 finals appaerances)

Ben Wallace was one of the emotional leaders of that great Detroit team. His averages in Detroit and his impact overall was great. He sorta failed after leaving Detroit (there were very high expectations, especially in Chicago) and he was overpaid, but still one of the best defenders and rebounders in the league..
He should be honoured for being a hard worker and the defensive anchor for one of the best teams of the decade.

For me he was the finals mvp and thats something Rodman, Mutombo or Howard (other great defenders with limited offense) havent done. he will get in.

[sundizz]

Ben Wallace > Bill Russell..true story.

[Toizumi]

For me he was the finals mvp and thats something Rodman, Mutombo or Howard (other great defenders with limited offense) havent done. he will get in.

He didn't get it though and as great as he was, I think that that squad didn't have one player who was the star. Ben is often mentioned as the key piece/should have been finals MVP. but I tend to disagree. The team worked great as a unit.
Ben was the defensive anchor to a team that won it all because of their defense, so that means a lot, but he wasn't the only leader on that team.
Billups was a leader as well, especially on offense. Not to mention Larry Brown, who put emphasis on the defense work ethic of this squad.

Sheed was an all star PF. He didnt make all star that year, but he was an all star level player and great defender. 13 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 1.9BPG for the playoffs.

Rip was an all star level scorer as well and had a great playoff run (21.5PPG, 4.6RPG, 4.2APG).

Prince was great. Solid bench as well. Total team effort.. with Ben arguably being the best player on that squad (because of his defense and leadership).

No doubt on him making the hall of fame though..

[feyki]

One of the top 60-65 players ever .