Prime Kevin Garnett = Best PF of all Time?

[GS1905]

He was a beast at the both ends of the floor in his prime. What do you guys think? Is he the best PF of all time in terms of individual performance. Not talking about rings, finals MVPs, etc.

[LBJDWADE63]

Garnett>> Duncan

Without ginobili and parker duncan is nothing.

[dee-rose]

Agreed

[SuperPippen]

IMO, no.

I'd still put Duncan above him. Duncan was superior offensively, they were both equally good rebounders, and defensively Duncan was a better anchor, and protected the rim better, although it could be argued that KG was more versatile defensively.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Prime Tim Duncan was better. Tim Duncan showed everyone in 02-03 that he was not the best PF in the league but the greatest power forward ever.

The Admiral in his final season on his last legs. Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little. Malik Rose getting major minutes, along with Stephen Jackson when he was a nobody. Tony Parker a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs. Duncan led that crew to a title. Duncan led them past the 3-peat Lakers, going for 37/16 on the Lakers own home court to finish them off. He then almost had a quadruple double in the last game of the finals, going for 21 points, 20 boards, 10 dimes and 8 blocks. Meanwhile, the guy he was guarding, K-Mart, went 3-19 for 6 points. It doesn't get much more dominating than that.

Did KG ever do that in his prime or anything remotely similar?

[GS1905]

IMO, no.

I'd still put Duncan above him. Duncan was superior offensively, they were both equally good rebounders, and defensively Duncan was a better anchor, and protected the rim better, although it could be argued that KG was more versatile defensively.

I won't argue about Duncan since it's very close between Duncan and KG but KG being more versatile defensively is not arguable. That's a fact. I remember KG guarding guys like Kobe, McGrady, and other guards in his prime. I don't ever remember Duncan doing that.

[GS1905]

Prime Tim Duncan was better. Tim Duncan showed everyone in 02-03 that he was not the best PF in the league but the greatest power forward ever.

The Admiral in his final season on his last legs. Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little. Malik Rose getting major minutes, along with Stephen Jackson when he was a nobody. Tony Parker a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs. Duncan led that crew to a title. Duncan led them past the 3-peat Lakers, going for 37/16 on the Lakers own home court to finish them off. He then almost had a quadruple double in the last game of the finals, going for 21 points, 20 boards, 10 dimes and 8 blocks. Meanwhile, the guy he was guarding, K-Mart, went 3-19 for 6 points. It doesn't get much more dominating than that.

Did KG ever do that in his prime or anything remotely similar?

KG had a shitty supporting cast and coaching where Duncan had many good role players and one of the best coaches of all time around him.

[ThaSwagg3r]

KG had a shitty supporting cast and coaching where Duncan had many good role players and one of the best coaches of all time around him.
Not in 2003. Duncan's teammates were in the same playing field as Garnett's in Minnesota. The ultimate difference between the two is the fact that Duncan could close out games and anchor the paint defensively while Garnett couldn't. Those two reasons were what ultimately made Duncan better than KG.

[knickswin]

No way. Duncan was always better. I'll take Dirk, Charles Barkley, and maybe Karl Malone over him too.

[PowerGlove]

I think prime KG and prime Duncan are on the same tier.

[Odinn]

Prime Tim Duncan was better. Tim Duncan showed everyone in 02-03 that he was not the best PF in the league but the greatest power forward ever.

The Admiral in his final season on his last legs. Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little. Malik Rose getting major minutes, along with Stephen Jackson when he was a nobody. Tony Parker a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs. Duncan led that crew to a title. Duncan led them past the 3-peat Lakers, going for 37/16 on the Lakers own home court to finish them off. He then almost had a quadruple double in the last game of the finals, going for 21 points, 20 boards, 10 dimes and 8 blocks. Meanwhile, the guy he was guarding, K-Mart, went 3-19 for 6 points. It doesn't get much more dominating than that.

Did KG ever do that in his prime or anything remotely similar?
:cheers: :cheers:

Also he had another of the greatest individual NBA Finals performances in game 1;
32 points / 20 rebounds / 6 asissts / 7 blocks / 3 steals / 0.647fg

And held K-Mart 0.417 from the field. (10/24)

[PowerGlove]

Not in 2003. Duncan's teammates were in the same playing field as Garnett's in Minnesota. The ultimate difference between the two is the fact that Duncan could close out games and anchor the paint defensively while Garnett couldn't. Those two reasons were what ultimately made Duncan better than KG.
:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Nah. Prime Duncan was just a better player. Smarter and more consistent offensively with his post game. KG in his prime was amazing and I have him as the 2nd best PF ever....but Duncan was a littler better in my opinion.

[Nick Young]

lol he never delivered in big games and still never has, needed to be a third option to finally win a ring, HOW IS HE EVEN CLOSE TO DUNCAN OR MALONE OR EVEN DIRK OR BARKLEY'S LEVEL? Not to mention Kevin McHale

[ThaSwagg3r]

:facepalm
Tell me what is so wrong about what I said.

Kevin Garnett couldn't get out of the 1st round until '03-'04 and Duncan already had two championships by then.

That '02-'03 season pretty much defines Duncan's career. Without it people would probably still argue today whether or not he was greater than Malone, KG, Barkley, or even Dirk. They would question him because people would think he was put in a greater situation than those other four rather than him being the one creating the greater situation for his teammates.

[GS1905]

:facepalm

Agreed. :facepalm Lol @ Duncan's teammates being like KG's teammates. KG was basically playing with bunch of scrubs. That wasn't the case with Duncan. He had good role players.

Stephen Jackson, Malik Rose, Parker and Ginobili were all good role players. Let's not act like Duncan won it all by himself.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Duncan was clearly the best player in the league in 2003, imo, but he got more help than KG. He didn't have a consistent second option night in and night out, but he had a deep team with a lot of different guys who stepped up when they needed to, played defense and more often than not, he had a teammate score 20+ during that run. Jackson, Bowen, Parker, Ginobili, Rose and Robinson all made notable contributions during that run. Look at the Spurs 4 wins in the Lakers series(the best team they faced) and tell me he didn't have teammates stepping up, in particular, Bowen's defense on Kobe was a huge factor.

Not to take anything away from Tim, he had one of he greatest playoff runs ever and he did have to carry that team quite a bit, but nobody wins titles alone and he's no exception.

[GS1905]

Duncan was clearly the best player in the league in 2003, imo, but he got more help than KG. He didn't have a consistent second option night in and night out, but he had a deep team with a lot of different guys who stepped up when they needed to, played defense and more often than not, he had a teammate score 20+ during that run. Jackson, Bowen, Parker, Ginobili, Rose and Robinson all made notable contributions during that run. Look at the Spurs 4 wins in the Lakers series(the best team they faced) and tell me he didn't have teammates stepping up, in particular, Bowen's defense on Kobe was a huge factor.

Not to take anything away from Tim, he had one of he greatest playoff runs ever and he did have to carry that team quite a bit, but nobody wins titles alone and he's no exception.

Agreed. I'm sick of people acting like Duncan won it all by himself. No one is saying he didn't carry his team but acting like he has done it all by himself is just stupid.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Agreed. :facepalm Lol @ Duncan's teammates being like KG's teammates. KG was basically playing with bunch of scrubs. That wasn't the case with Duncan. He had good role players.

Stephen Jackson, Malik Rose, Parker and Ginobili were all good role players. Let's not act like Duncan won it all by himself.
Parker was a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs. Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little. Malik Rose getting major minutes, along with Stephen Jackson when he was a nobody.

There was no other all-star on the Spurs other than Duncan himself that season.

How much better do you really think his teammates actually was compared to Garnett's?

[GS1905]

Parker was a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs. Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little. Malik Rose getting major minutes, along with Stephen Jackson when he was a nobody.

There was no other all-star on the Spurs other than Duncan himself that season.

How much better do you really think his teammates actually was compared to Garnett's?

I didn't say Duncan had star players. I said good role players. Parker averaged around 15 points in the finals that year. Admiral and Jackson both put up 10+ in the finals too. Then he had Malik Rose and Ginobili who put up close to 10 points a game.

This is just the offensive side of the game tho. On the defensive end pretty much every Spurs player was decent. You have guys like Bowen who helped defending Kobe or Malik Rose who helped defending Shaq, etc. I can't believe you're seriously arguing about Duncan's teammates being as crappy as KG's teammates. :facepalm

[chips93]

Prime Tim Duncan was better. Tim Duncan showed everyone in 02-03 that he was not the best PF in the league but the greatest power forward ever.

The Admiral in his final season on his last legs. Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little. Malik Rose getting major minutes, along with Stephen Jackson when he was a nobody. Tony Parker a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs. Duncan led that crew to a title. Duncan led them past the 3-peat Lakers, going for 37/16 on the Lakers own home court to finish them off. He then almost had a quadruple double in the last game of the finals, going for 21 points, 20 boards, 10 dimes and 8 blocks. Meanwhile, the guy he was guarding, K-Mart, went 3-19 for 6 points. It doesn't get much more dominating than that.

Did KG ever do that in his prime or anything remotely similar?

pretty much this

i know that kg does all of his antics becasue of a love of the game, and not just to draw attention to himself . . . buuuuuut if kg was as attention grabbing as kg, then this wouldnt even be a discussion

[ThaSwagg3r]

Parker averaged around 15 points in the finals that year.
He also shot 39% and all those players you listed could thank their points to Tim Duncan.


Admiral and Jackson both put up 10+ in the finals too. Then you had Malik Rose and Ginobili who put up close to 10 points a game.
:oldlol: So does that mean he has a great supporting cast now? :applause: Nice, he got one other player scoring over 10 points a game and two other players scoring close to 10 a game. Pretty damn stacked team.

I can play this stupid game too....

In the 2002 playoffs, KG had two other teammates scoring over 20 ppg, one other teammate scoring over 10 ppg, and one player scoring close to 10 ppg.

Billups scored 22 ppg, Wally S. scored 20 ppg, Rasho scored over 10 ppg, and Anthony peeler scored close to 10 ppg.

Using your logic, Garnett had a pretty good supporting cast in 2002. :rolleyes:



This is just the offensive side of the game tho. On the defensive end pretty much every Spurs player was decent. You have guys like Bowen who helped defending Kobe or Malik Rose who helped defending Shaq, etc.
And who was their anchor defensively? Tim Duncan. The defense starts and ends with him. He was a great pick n roll defender back in those days, he was obviously a great shot blocker, and he was a great post-defender.


I can't believe you're seriously arguing about Duncan's teammates being as crappy as KG's teammates. :facepalm
Garnett's teammates were worse but not by a big margin. If you think it was by a significant amount you are either kidding yourself or you don't know what you're talking about. It's looking like the latter of the two.

[kaiiu]

current Dirk> Prime KG

[DMAVS41]

He also shot 39% and all those players you listed could thank their points to Tim Duncan.

:oldlol: So does that mean he has a great supporting cast now? :applause: Nice, he got one other player scoring over 10 points a game and two other players scoring close to 10 a game. Pretty damn stacked team.

I can play this stupid game too....

In the 2002 playoffs, KG had two other teammates scoring over 20 ppg, one other teammate scoring over 10 ppg, and one player scoring close to 10 ppg.

Billups scored 22 ppg, Wally S. scored 20 ppg, Rasho scored over 10 ppg, and Anthony peeler scored close to 10 ppg.

Using your logic, Garnett had a pretty good supporting cast in 2002. :rolleyes:


And who was their anchor defensively? Tim Duncan. The defense starts and ends with him. He was a great pick n roll defender back in those days, he was obviously a great shot blocker, and he was a great post-defender.


Garnett's teammates were worse but not by a big margin. If you think it was by a significant amount you are either kidding yourself or you don't know what you're talking about. It's looking like the latter of the two.


Yea...kind of agree with this. By the arguments people are presenting here...then KG's 02 team was pretty damn good. He definitely got a lot of help against the Mavs. He had players step up and make big plays...etc. And they got swept in the first round and KG was not the best player in the series.

If we are going to start acting like Duncan's 03 title isn't special, then those same people better hammer KG for getting his ass swept in 02 with plenty of help to at least make the series competitive....which it wasn't by the way.

Just for fun:

KG's help in 02:

Billups 22/5/6
Wally 20/7/2
Rasho 11/7/1
Peeler 9/4/1
Trent 6/3
Smith 4/4

Duncan's help in 03:

Parker 15/3/4
Jackson 13/4/3
Manu 9/4/3
Rose 9/6/1
Robinson 8/7/1
Bowen 7/3/2
Claxton 5/2/2


Obviously Duncan had more help defensively and had the better team, but KG had some quality players as well and its not a night and day difference or anything. And again, the results could not be more different. Duncan led his team to the title. KG couldn't even win a game in the first round.

[GS1905]

He also shot 39% and all those players you listed could thank their points to Tim Duncan.

:oldlol: So does that mean he has a great supporting cast now? :applause: Nice, he got one other player scoring over 10 points a game and two other players scoring close to 10 a game. Pretty damn stacked team.

I can play this stupid game too....

In the 2002 playoffs, KG had two other teammates scoring over 20 ppg, one other teammate scoring over 10 ppg, and one player scoring close to 10 ppg.

Billups scored 22 ppg, Wally S. scored 20 ppg, Rasho scored over 10 ppg, and Anthony peeler scored close to 10 ppg.

Using your logic, Garnett had a pretty good supporting cast in 2002. :rolleyes:


And who was their anchor defensively? Tim Duncan. The defense starts and ends with him. He was a great pick n roll defender back in those days, he was obviously a great shot blocker, and he was a great post-defender.


Garnett's teammates were worse but not by a big margin. If you think it was by a significant amount you are either kidding yourself or you don't know what you're talking about. It's looking like the latter of the two.

Why are you acting like I said Duncan is a bad player or something? I know Duncan was their best player and that he carried the Spurs. I'm not arguing against anything like that. I also never said anything like Duncan had a good supporting cast. All I was saying is KG had a worse supporting cast. I didn't say anything about Duncan's supporting cast other than comparing it to KG's supporting cast. I said Duncan's teammates were better than Kg's. That's all. Don't make up stuff to prove your point.

What I'm saying is prime KG > prime Duncan and KG's supporting cast and coaching was worse than Duncan's and that's why you can't blame KG for not winning.

[RRR3]

No way. Duncan was always better. I'll take Dirk, Charles Barkley, and maybe Karl Malone over him too.
:roll:

[RRR3]

I think you can argue Garnettt had the best peak for any power forward ever, but Duncan for sure has had a better career and some others (Barkley, K. Malone maybe) have arguments as well.

[G.O.A.T]

In 2002 Garnett had the following teammates...

A 24-year old All-Star wing
A 25-year old PG who would win Finals MVP in two years
A 26-year old former #1 overall pick at PF who averaged 15 and 8 for his career to that point
A 25-year old center who would later win a title alongside Duncan
Four solid rotation guys in Anthony Peeler, Marc Jackson, Gary Trent and Sam Mitchell.

That's plenty enough talent to contend.

They struggled in close games though 9-10 for the season in games decided by four points or less or in overtime. Then they got swept in the playoffs and ended the season losing 16 of their last 25 games.

[GS1905]

I think you can argue Garnettt had the best peak for any power forward ever, but Duncan for sure has had a better career and some others (Barkley, K. Malone maybe) have arguments as well.

I totally agree. I think Duncan is the GOAT PF if you consider everything like rings, finals MVP, normal season MVP, stats, etc. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying KG at his best was better than Duncan at his best.

[DMAVS41]

In 2002 Garnett had the following teammates...

A 24-year old All-Star wing
A 25-year old PG who would win Finals MVP in two years
A 26-year old former #1 overall pick at PF who averaged 15 and 8 for his career to that point
A 25-year old center who would later win a title alongside Duncan
Four solid rotation guys in Anthony Peeler, Marc Jackson, Gary Trent and Sam Mitchell.

That's plenty enough talent to contend.

They struggled in close games though 9-10 for the season in games decided by four points or less or in overtime. Then they got swept in the playoffs and ended the season losing 16 of their last 25 games.

I don't think its enough talent to realistically contend, but its definitely enough to at least win a game in the first round or challenge to get out of the first round.

Again, if people are going to start acting like Duncan's run is something common....then they better turn around and criticize KG for underachieving big time compared to Duncan in 02 with a worse, but not terribly worse supporting cast around him.

[GS1905]

In 2002 Garnett had the following teammates...

A 24-year old All-Star wing
A 25-year old PG who would win Finals MVP in two years
A 26-year old former #1 overall pick at PF who averaged 15 and 8 for his career to that point
A 25-year old center who would later win a title alongside Duncan
Four solid rotation guys in Anthony Peeler, Marc Jackson, Gary Trent and Sam Mitchell.

That's plenty enough talent to contend.

They struggled in close games though 9-10 for the season in games decided by four points or less or in overtime. Then they got swept in the playoffs and ended the season losing 16 of their last 25 games.

Plenty enough talent to contend? :facepalm

It doesn't matter what those players accomplished after. What counts is how they played at that time. They only had 2 good players. Szczerbiak and Billups. Same Billups who averaged around 10 points. Yes, Billups ended up being a great player but he wasn't that good when he was playing for Minnesota. He got really better in 03-04.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Parker was a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs.

Inconsistent, yes, but he had his fair share of big games that run. 29 points in game 3 vs Phoenix, 21 in game 5 vs the Lakers and 27 in game 6 vs the Lakers, back to back games of 29 points and 25 points vs Dallas and back to back games of 21 and 26 points vs the Nets.


Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little.

Not true, he had a 21 point game off the bench that run and 13 double digit scoring games off the bench during the playoffs.


The Spurs, upgraded defensively and athletically around Tim Duncan, who scored 28 points tonight, got an especially strong performance from Manu Ginobili, the versatile shooting guard from Argentina. His long-range shooting and slashing drives were worth 15 points, but the play that might affect the series most occurred early in the fourth quarter, when Ginobili stripped Brian Shaw and accelerated upcourt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/06/sports/pro-basketball-lakers-as-a-team-of-2-can-t-catch-the-spurs.html

[QUOTE]Ignited by the Frenchman Parker and Argentina's Manu Ginobili, Monsieur Speed and Se

[GS1905]

I don't think its enough talent to realistically contend, but its definitely enough to at least win a game in the first round or challenge to get out of the first round.

Again, if people are going to start acting like Duncan's run is something common....then they better turn around and criticize KG for underachieving big time compared to Duncan in 02 with a worse, but not terribly worse supporting cast around him.

This thread is not about Duncan. I'm not here trying to bash him. I feel like Garnett at his best was the best PF of all time in terms of individual performance. I just wanted to know what others think about that but all of a sudden some people turned this thread into Duncan vs Garnett thread.

[DMAVS41]

This thread is not about Duncan. I'm not here trying to bash him. I feel like Garnett at his best was the best PF of all time in terms of individual performance. I just wanted to know what others think about that but all of a sudden some people turned this thread into Duncan vs Garnett thread.

Well its of course going to become a Duncan vs KG thread because Duncan is really the only other PF that should be ranked over KG in my opinion.

I like KG, but I do think he's a bit over-rated as a player if he's getting compared to Duncan. I don't see it. Duncan was just the better player in my opinion. Prime vs prime or otherwise.

[GS1905]

Inconsistent, yes, but he had his fair share of big games that run. 29 points in game 3 vs Phoenix, 21 in game 5 vs the Lakers and 27 in game 6 vs the Lakers, back to back games of 29 points and 25 points vs Dallas and back to back games of 21 and 26 points vs the Nets.



Not true, he had a 21 point game off the bench that run and 13 double digit scoring games off the bench during the playoffs.



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/06/sports/pro-basketball-lakers-as-a-team-of-2-can-t-catch-the-spurs.html



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/09/sports/sports-of-the-times-parker-should-make-spurs-forget-kidd.html



You say this as if he was a scrub. In the 13 games that he started that year, he averaged 16.5 ppg and 9.2 rpg on 51.3% shooting.

In the Phoenix series, he had 5 consecutive double digit scoring games including games of 15/7 in 26 minutes, 10/14 in 29 minutes and 27/13 in 29 minutes. He also had a 25 point game in 27 minutes in game 2 vs Dallas and a double double in the closeout game 6.



That "nobody" opened up the playoffs with 3 consecutive 20 point games vs Phoenix and a 21 point game in the closeout game 6 and he also had back to back 20+ point games in the final 2 games of the Dallas series.

And then there's Robinson who was a good defender and rebounder, especially for a limited minutes guy. And Bruce Bowen, who was essential to the Spurs beating the Lakers.



http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/access/334495361.html?dids=334495361:334495361&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+09%2C+2003&author=David+DuPree&pub=USA+TODAY&desc=Bowen+beats+Lakers+on+both+ends+of+floor+%3B+ Defensive+stalwart+erupts+for+27+points+as+Spurs+g o+up+2-0&pqatl=google



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/playoffs/2003-05-08-spurs-lakers-2_x.htm

It's funny how much worse that team is considered now compared to 2003.

Great post man. This pretty much explains everything. Smh @ people who act like Duncan played all by himself. He had no star players playing with him but he had lots of good role players who played decent on both ends of the floor.

[DMAVS41]

Great post man. This pretty much explains everything. Smh @ people who act like Duncan played all by himself. He had no star players playing with him but he had lots of good role players who played decent on both ends of the floor.

Nobody actually thinks anyone wins alone. It just happens to be one of the worst supporting casts around a star player to ever win a NBA title. Simple as that.

[Bigsmoke]

Plenty enough talent to contend? :facepalm

It doesn't matter what those players accomplished after. What counts is how they played at that time. They only had 2 good players. Szczerbiak and Billups. Same Billups who averaged around 10 points. Yes, Billups ended up being a great player but he wasn't that good when he was playing for Minnesota. He got really better in 03-04.

Billups started getting good in the playoffs that year in 02.

[Odinn]

In the 2002 playoffs, Nowitzki destroyed Prime KG.
33.3 ppg
15.7 rpg
0.7 apg
3.0 spg
1.3 bpg
2.0 tpg
0.526 fg
0.727 3pt.
0.889 ft
41.67 efficiency
0.962 efficiency per min.

[LBJDWADE63]

In the 2002 playoffs, Nowitzki destroyed Prime KG.
33.3 ppg
15.7 rpg
0.7 apg
3.0 spg
1.3 bpg
2.0 tpg
0.526 fg
0.727 3pt.
0.889 ft
41.67 efficiency
0.962 efficiency per min.

Ulan odin ne zaman bir duncan konusu gorsem o konuda seni gorcegimi biliyorum:lol bundan sonra sana ulasmak istedigim zaman duncan konusu acacam.

[Odinn]

Ulan odin ne zaman bir duncan konusu gorsem o konuda seni gorcegimi biliyorum:lol bundan sonra sana ulasmak istedigim zaman duncan konusu acacam.
Hoca sen Forum DH

[chazzy]

Top 10 Minny dunks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc55hijZgRs)

[Big#50]

The reason Bowen, Manu, Jackson were hitting threes was because of the doubles on Tim. He passed the ball so well that post season. Never seen anyone pass off the double that well. KG rarely got doubled.

[KGMN]

Top 10 Minny dunks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc55hijZgRs)
I've watched that video like 20 times! :D
<---- is awesome

[KGMN]

Billups started getting good in the playoffs that year in 02.

He "started getting good", but wasn't ever thought (by anyone) to be a potential HOF'er as he is right now. Chauncey was thought of as a pretty good player, but not even near an all-star.

[Pointguard]

In 2002 Garnett had the following teammates...

A 24-year old All-Star wing
A 25-year old PG who would win Finals MVP in two years
A 26-year old former #1 overall pick at PF who averaged 15 and 8 for his career to that point
A 25-year old center who would later win a title alongside Duncan
Four solid rotation guys in Anthony Peeler, Marc Jackson, Gary Trent and Sam Mitchell.

That's plenty enough talent to contend.

They struggled in close games though 9-10 for the season in games decided by four points or less or in overtime. Then they got swept in the playoffs and ended the season losing 16 of their last 25 games.

This post is rather deceptive.
A 24-year old All-Star wing-Scerbiak had a weak career - Allstar by default, had no defense. KG usually had to guard his man. Was anti clutch.

A 25-year old PG who would win Finals MVP in two years
Billups was journeyman and this was the first time he was starter. He didn't start the year as a starter. After 5 years its hard to adapt to playing against starters. He wasn't ready to run a team and KG was a better set up man at this point.

A 26-year old former #1 overall pick at PF who averaged 15 and 8 for his career to that point
Definitely one of the biggest bust at the time as well. Generally is considered the reason why Minny couldn't contend for years - McHale was greatly criticized for incredibly dumb move in getting him. McHale ruined the franchise in attaining him. A player without a strong point.

A 25-year old center who would later win a title alongside Duncan
Nestrovic averaged 8.4 and 6.5 had little experience.



Four solid rotation guys in Anthony Peeler, Marc Jackson, Gary Trent and Sam Mitchell.

That's plenty enough talent to contend.

Anthony Peeler was the only solid bench player at that time. Do you remember '02 at all??? You are saying that Minny had the talent of LA, Sacramento, Portland or SA you are totally crazy. Minny was a poorly constructed team without a strength outside of KG and weaknesses all over and at every position.

[ballerz]

No. Even as an avid kevin garnett fan duncan is better. If KG was on a better team earlier in his career maybe he would have a better case

[MastahX]

Garnett best PF of all time? No chance.

Malone was the best PF - I'd take Barkley and Duncan and probably a few others before Garnett.

[jlip]

This post is rather deceptive.
A 24-year old All-Star wing-Scerbiak had a weak career - Allstar by default, had no defense. KG usually had to guard his man. Was anti clutch.

A 25-year old PG who would win Finals MVP in two years
Billups was journeyman and this was the first time he was starter. He didn't start the year as a starter. After 5 years its hard to adapt to playing against starters. He wasn't ready to run a team and KG was a better set up man at this point.

A 26-year old former #1 overall pick at PF who averaged 15 and 8 for his career to that point
Definitely one of the biggest bust at the time as well. Generally is considered the reason why Minny couldn't contend for years - McHale was greatly criticized for incredibly dumb move in getting him. McHale ruined the franchise in attaining him. A player without a strong point.

A 25-year old center who would later win a title alongside Duncan
Nestrovic averaged 8.4 and 6.5 had little experience.



Anthony Peeler was the only solid bench player at that time. Do you remember '02 at all??? You are saying that Minny had the talent of LA, Sacramento, Portland or SA you are totally crazy. Minny was a poorly constructed team without a strength outside of KG and weaknesses all over and at every position.

I agree with this. Also, why are people speaking as if 2002 was KG's peak? I know that all NBA selections and all star voting are criteria with holes in them, but in '02, KG wasn't even an all NBA 1st team player and had his lowest finish ever in MVP voting since he had started getting votes.

'03 and '04 were clearly his best seasons. I would take Duncan over him slightly in '03, based on just simple dominance, especialy in the playoffs, but KG was verrrry close that season IMO.

[anyonebutmiami]

Garnett best PF of all time? No chance.

Malone was the best PF - I'd take Barkley and Duncan and probably a few others before Garnett.


the Mailman is #1 for sure..... KG isn't close to him yet.....

Barkley was too much of a ball hog in his prime... but certainly was
one of the greatest rebounders of all time...

[miles berg]

LMAO @ this thread.

KG the PF of all time in his prime?

ROFL

Whats your address? I want to send you a Tim Duncan DVD.

[FireDavidKahn]

Not in 2003. Duncan's teammates were in the same playing field as Garnett's in Minnesota. The ultimate difference between the two is the fact that Duncan could close out games and anchor the paint defensively while Garnett couldn't. Those two reasons were what ultimately made Duncan better than KG.
Garnett's best sidekick was Wally freaking Szczerbiak until the 03-04 season:oldlol: , unless you want to count the 2 years he got with Marbury when he was a rookie and before he got good.

[FireDavidKahn]

LMAO @ this thread.

KG the PF of all time in his prime?

ROFL

Whats your address? I want to send you a Tim Duncan DVD.
You act like prime Tim Duncan was on another level than prime Garnett:lol

I'll take a prime Duncan over a prime Garnett but both players were really really close to having the same impact in their primes. This isn't a ridiculous thread at all.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I agree with this. Also, why are people speaking as if 2002 was KG's peak? I know that all NBA selections and all star voting are criteria with holes in them, but in '02, KG wasn't even an all NBA 1st team player and had his lowest finish ever in MVP voting since he had started getting votes.

'03 and '04 were clearly his best seasons. I would take Duncan over him slightly in '03, based on just simple dominance, especialy in the playoffs, but KG was verrrry close that season IMO.

Good post. I have Duncan and KG ranked 1 and 2 for 2003 and then KG and Duncan at 1 and 2 for 2004. They were close, though I favor Duncan as far as peak vs peak and prime vs prime without thinking twice.

But with that said, Duncan seems immune to getting blamed for things that KG would(or did get blamed for in similar situations).

Here are 3 examples from Duncan's absolute prime. In fact 3 years from a 4 year stretch which exclude just his peak season in 2003.

2001- Got swept with homecourt advantage by an average margin of almost 22 ppg. Put up big numbers in the first 2 games, but had just 9 points on 3/14 from the field and 3/8 from the line in game 3 and averaged just 12/10 on 8/24 from the field and 8/17 from the line over the final 2 games.

Is it that simple? Of course not, Duncan's second leading scorer Derek Anderson was injured and that Laker team played much better in the playoffs than they did in the regular season. But why give Duncan a pass(even with a valid excuse) when KG doesn't get one?

2002- The Spurs lost to the Lakers for a 2nd consecutive year, this time in 5 games, but the games were close and Duncan didn't play well in the 4th quarters.

Sound familiar? Now KG gets blamed for this sort of thing, but Duncan gets a pass all of these years later(though he did get criticized at the time). Now, if you look past the surface, you can at least factor in that Robinson was injured and this was Duncan's worst cast of his career, imo.

2004- The Spurs went up 2-0 on the Lakers, but lost the next 4 and in those 4 losses, Duncan averaged just 17.5 ppg on 38.3% shooting with 4.3 turnovers per game.

No way KG would get a pass for this.

And this does not reflect my view on Duncan, aside from 2004, I wouldn't have expected him to win those series, and he lost to more talented teams.

But are we forgetting that KG lost to teams that were clearly more talented as well?

1999- Lost to the champion Spurs
2000- Lost to the Blazers
2001- Lost to the Spurs
2002- Lost to the Mavs
2003- Lost to the Lakers
2004- Lost to the Lakers

There's not one year that you can argue KG had a better team than the one he lost to.


Garnett's best sidekick was Wally freaking Szczerbiak until the 03-04 season:oldlol: , unless you want to count the 2 years he got with Marbury when he was a rookie and before he got good.

Nah, 2000 Terrell Brandon was clearly better than Wally, imo.

[FireDavidKahn]

Garnett best PF of all time? No chance.

Malone was the best PF - I'd take Barkley and Duncan and probably a few others before Garnett.
We are talking primes not careers.

[JellyBean]

I am a KG homer, so I am a little bias when it comes to KG and what he could do in the NBA. But to say that he was the best PF of all-time in his prime? That diminishes Karl Malone. I could KG a close second. If we are talking all-around individual performance, KG was tops among PFs. KG could guard the PG-C. He was too quick for most PFs to guard. Too strong, if you can believe that, for SFs to guard. He had the mid-range game. He had the footwork of a guard. He had the post moves of a center. He had the wing-span. the guy could defend. I mean, KG was unreal!

And I have been down this road before with the Tim Duncan comparison, but I will say it again; Give KG; a David Robinson, Stephon Jackson, Bruce Bowen, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Sean Elliot, Mario Elie, a Steve Kerr, and some nice role players on the bench...and people would be saying KG was the best PF of all-time. But we get the Tim Duncan crowd saying that Tim Duncan is the best of all-time. Nothing wrong with that. I give Tim Duncan much respect. But like I have said before, Tim got lucky. That is the fate of the NBA Gods. We are cool with that. But I still like KG over Duncan :D

[PTB Fan]

I'd take personally Duncan...he was arguably the best defensive and overall player in the league in his prime. He was also a dominant presence on the glass, superb offensive force and excellent leader...

He dominated the Nets in the '03 Finals...

[artificial]

I don't think Prime Kevin Garnett is the best PF of all time. I base that on his offense.

First of all, we are talking about all time greats. I acknowledge Garnett's offense is well above average.

That said, I don't think Garnett ever had all-time great offense. Watching him play, even in his prime, he rarely took over a game offensively. It's as if he couldn't be the main man on his team's scoring for long stretches, or at least when most needed. And I know he had good offensive stats, but that is not what I'm talking about.

Players as Duncan and Barkley -specially in their primes-, you could just give them the ball at any point of the game, and not worry about the posession. Watching Garnett (even in his prime), I thought he was going to end up throwing a mid range jumper half of the time (which was and is very effective), or pass hoping another teammate could score. Barkley on his prime would find a way to get that freakin bucket himself, even if he ballhogged sometimes. Duncan would find a way to score, and if he passed, it was for an open shot.

I'm not discussing defense, because I think prime Garnett's defense was as good as anyone.

But again, I disagree in that Prime Kevin Garnett is the best PF of all time. To his credit , there are only a couple of players I would take ahead of him.

[DMAVS41]

Good post. I have Duncan and KG ranked 1 and 2 for 2003 and then KG and Duncan at 1 and 2 for 2004. They were close, though I favor Duncan as far as peak vs peak and prime vs prime without thinking twice.

But with that said, Duncan seems immune to getting blamed for things that KG would(or did get blamed for in similar situations).

Here are 3 examples from Duncan's absolute prime. In fact 3 years from a 4 year stretch which exclude just his peak season in 2003.

2001- Got swept with homecourt advantage by an average margin of almost 22 ppg. Put up big numbers in the first 2 games, but had just 9 points on 3/14 from the field and 3/8 from the line in game 3 and averaged just 12/10 on 8/24 from the field and 8/17 from the line over the final 2 games.

Is it that simple? Of course not, Duncan's second leading scorer Derek Anderson was injured and that Laker team played much better in the playoffs than they did in the regular season. But why give Duncan a pass(even with a valid excuse) when KG doesn't get one?

2002- The Spurs lost to the Lakers for a 2nd consecutive year, this time in 5 games, but the games were close and Duncan didn't play well in the 4th quarters.

Sound familiar? Now KG gets blamed for this sort of thing, but Duncan gets a pass all of these years later(though he did get criticized at the time). Now, if you look past the surface, you can at least factor in that Robinson was injured and this was Duncan's worst cast of his career, imo.

2004- The Spurs went up 2-0 on the Lakers, but lost the next 4 and in those 4 losses, Duncan averaged just 17.5 ppg on 38.3% shooting with 4.3 turnovers per game.

No way KG would get a pass for this.

And this does not reflect my view on Duncan, aside from 2004, I wouldn't have expected him to win those series, and he lost to more talented teams.

But are we forgetting that KG lost to teams that were clearly more talented as well?

1999- Lost to the champion Spurs
2000- Lost to the Blazers
2001- Lost to the Spurs
2002- Lost to the Mavs
2003- Lost to the Lakers
2004- Lost to the Lakers

There's not one year that you can argue KG had a better team than the one he lost to.



Nah, 2000 Terrell Brandon was clearly better than Wally, imo.


There also really isn't one year in which KG did anything spectacular or over-achieved...other than 2004 really.

And the 02 Mavs weren't clearly better. Better? Sure...but its not like it would have been the biggest upset ever or something...especially in a 5 game series.

I don't think anyone (with a brain) is saying that KG should be faulted for not winning a title in Minny or something...its just that he never really over-achieved or did anything like Duncan did in 03. Did KG have as much help? Of course not....but he also didn't play on the worst teams ever or anything. The 02 team is a good example of this. It was a decent squad and absolutely a good enough squad to at least challenge to get out of the first round. Stuff like that matters.

I'm pretty much an objective measure or stats guy, but KG's stats are better than the player he actually was in terms of impact. I think it was obvious when watching Duncan and KG play.

[ShaqAttack3234]

There also really isn't one year in which KG did anything spectacular or over-achieved...other than 2004 really.

And the 02 Mavs weren't clearly better. Better? Sure...but its not like it would have been the biggest upset ever or something...especially in a 5 game series.

I don't think anyone (with a brain) is saying that KG should be faulted for not winning a title in Minny or something...its just that he never really over-achieved or did anything like Duncan did in 03. Did KG have as much help? Of course not....but he also didn't play on the worst teams ever or anything. The 02 team is a good example of this. It was a decent squad and absolutely a good enough squad to at least challenge to get out of the first round. Stuff like that matters.

I'm pretty much an objective measure or stats guy, but KG's stats are better than the player he actually was in terms of impact. I think it was obvious when watching Duncan and KG play.

I agree that Duncan is better, but some of KG's teams did overachieve outside of '04, imo. Not all of those teams had the talent of a 50 win team in the West back then.

And yes, the '02 Mavs were much better.

They had Dirk(all-nba second team and his second straight all-nba team)
Nash(all-nba third team)
Finley(21 ppg scorer and coming off back to back all-star selections in '00 and '01)
Nick Van Exel(coming off the bench, but he was a 21/8 guy as a starter with Denver that same year before coming to Dallas)
LaFrentz(An above average center)

Only Sacramento was more talented, imo, and maybe you could make a case for Portland being up there.

Minnesota was arguably the least talented team to make the playoffs in the West that year.

[DMAVS41]

I agree that Duncan is better, but some of KG's teams did overachieve outside of '04, imo. Not all of those teams had the talent of a 50 win team in the West back then.

And yes, the '02 Mavs were much better.

They had Dirk(all-nba second team and his second straight all-nba team)
Nash(all-nba third team)
Finley(21 ppg scorer and coming off back to back all-star selections in '00 and '01)
Nick Van Exel(coming off the bench, but he was a 21/8 guy as a starter with Denver that same year before coming to Dallas)
LaFrentz(An above average center)

Only Sacramento was more talented, imo, and maybe you could make a case for Portland being up there.

Minnesota was arguably the least talented team to make the playoffs in the West that year.

I disagree....especially how the series played out. Billups and Wally both played well....so did Rasho. KG had no business being outplayed by Dirk that badly or getting swept. A lot of people thought that KG would destroy Dirk and lead the Wolves to an upset in that series. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people would have picked minny in that series if they had known that wally and billups would average 42/12/8 between them for the series.

Can't just make excuses for years like that.....Duncan might have led that team to the WCF.

KG won 7 playoff games from 97 through 03. He never made it out of the first round. He won a total of 17 playoff games in his 12 year in minny (fact check required)......

[magnax1]

KG and Duncan are the two guys who have a case for best PF ever to me. I personally have KG one or two spots higher then Duncan, but they were basically 1a/1b in terms of who was best in the league in their peaks. Overall, Duncan was a better scorer, KG was a better passer, everything else is arguable.

[Butters]

Duncan will have that title for a loooong time.

[SCdac]

2002- The Spurs lost to the Lakers for a 2nd consecutive year, this time in 5 games, but the games were close and Duncan didn't play well in the 4th quarters.

Sound familiar? Now KG gets blamed for this sort of thing, but Duncan gets a pass all of these years later(though he did get criticized at the time). Now, if you look past the surface, you can at least factor in that Robinson was injured and this was Duncan's worst cast of his career, imo.

It IS important to factor that in... Without Robinson it's an incomplete team, and the rookie Parker shot horribly against the eventual champions (outside of one game), scoring at a 41% clip and making a weak 17% of his 3's (he took way too many three's early in his career).

Duncan was criticized at the time (some of which came straight from LA coaching staff (no surprsise, knowing Phil)) , but it's partly for something that would later make him a HOF player - he was unselfish. Even in 4th quarters. But you can't blame him. He's not going to shot-jack, or force bad shots (for the most part - everybody does at one time or another, but Duncan didn't do it consistently). Even if he tried to "take over" the 4th, it was questionable at the time if it would have even helped... I mean, Duncan was getting double and triple teamed in some of the Lakers games - by design of the LA coaching staff, they admittedly wanted to make him a passer.

It's also important to note that Duncan played progressively better in every game of that Lakers series - or at least, his scoring literally went up in every game and it was obvious he was all the Spurs had. In the Final/deciding game his 25 rebounds was like 1/3 of the total rebounds grabbed in that game, and well more than half of the Spurs rebounds...

It's leads to the fact that, that team was bad (for a team trying to contend, at least). A great indication of that is Game 4 against the Sonics when Duncan's father died and he couldn't/didn't attend the game. Spurs were down 26 at half time, shot a dismal 33% as a team and 25% from beyond the arch. Held to under 80 points by that 45-win Supersonics team, it was ugly needless to say.

I wouldn't say Duncan "gets a pass all these years later" --- it's just, you have to look at the following year after this, it would be blind to not notice how he redeemed himself in a huge way. Meaning, these failure weren't lingering and tarnishing in the grand scheme, like maybe they were for otehrs. Duncan, and his team, got over the hump way sooner than Garnett and his team (for a variety of reasons, some of which were and weren't out of said players control).

[knickswin]

yeah I usually give players passes for bad playoff series if they redeem themselves in others. Even though Duncan had some bad years, he also had 2003, 2005, and 1999. He also played very well in 2006 even though his team lost. Kevin Garnett does not really have a playoff run he can hang his hat on. 2004 and 2008 were pretty good, but not exactly extraordinary.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Not really, back to the old Duncan Garnett debate. In terms of impact, both are extremely close. KG is a better shooter and perimeter defender, while Duncan is a better rim protector and has been more consistent throughout the years. Both were fantastic defenders and great rebounders though.

I would give Duncan a slight edge even without his 4 rings, but it's really really close.

[D.J.]

Garnett isn't even top 3. He may be the most versatile, but certainly not the most dominant.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Garnett isn't even top 3. He may be the most versatile, but certainly not the most dominant.
He has an argument for top three but I don't think he is top three either. I think it is arguable that Dirk was greater than him as well. KG reminds me of a more liked version of LeBron, not his playing style but the way media and fans views him. Not a lick of blame ever went on Garnett despite the fact that he couldn't get past the 1st round for eight seasons.

KG is like a loyal version of LeBron. LeBron is more likeable on the court because he isn't pompous asshole that talks trash constantly like KG is while KG is more likeable off the court because he is loyal and he isn't some arrogant dumbshit that doesn't know what he is talking about like LeBron is.

[D.J.]

He has an argument for top three but I don't think he is top three either. I think it is arguable that Dirk was greater than him as well. KG reminds me of a more liked version of LeBron, not his playing style but the way media and fans views him. Not a lick of blame ever went on Garnett despite the fact that he couldn't get past the 1st round for eight seasons.

KG is like a loyal version of LeBron. LeBron is more likeable on the court because he isn't pompous asshole that talks trash constantly like KG is while KG is more likeable off the court because he is loyal and he isn't some arrogant dumbshit that doesn't know what he is talking about like LeBron is.


No he doesn't. Duncan, Barkley, Malone.

[Pointguard]

IN 2002, if KG was guarded by Dirk and Dirk guarded by KG, KG would have destroyed Dirk. Dirk never guarded good power forwards back then. Rasho didn't box Dirk out. Dirk always had it waaaaay easier than other superstar PF's. This lie that Dirk did it on KG is one of the biggest hoaxs on basketball forums.

The Mavs thought Wally was a joke and never took him serious. There wasn't much Nash could do with the much stronger Billups but why concern themselves with it. Neither Billups or the Wolves were used to him being a viable option and the offense became a bit unbalanced. The Mavs just focused on KG. It was a very quick 3game series. And Minny just didn't recoup in the third game.

[DMAVS41]

IN 2002, if KG was guarded by Dirk and Dirk guarded by KG, KG would have destroyed Dirk. Dirk never guarded good power forwards back then. Rasho didn't box Dirk out. Dirk always had it waaaaay easier than other superstar PF's. This lie that Dirk did it on KG is one of the biggest hoaxs on basketball forums.

The Mavs thought Wally was a joke and never took him serious. There wasn't much Nash could do with the much stronger Billups but why concern themselves with it. Neither Billups or the Wolves were used to him being a viable option and the offense became a bit unbalanced. The Mavs just focused on KG. It was a very quick 3game series. And Minny just didn't recoup in the third game.

And when KG tried to guard Dirk....Dirk blasted him. If KG could have shut down Dirk as easily as you say....why didn't the wolves put KG on Dirk and make lesser players beat them?

Especially when it became apparent that KG playing in the zone was making no impact defensively at all.

Could it be that KG actually couldn't stop Dirk? You know...reality.

[Nero Tulip]

This thread is an insult... Duncan is better in every possible way and in terms of accomplishements there's just no comparison. Barkley is also better.

Garnett was flashy though, I'll give him that.

[Scoooter]

The Dirk/KG debate is close enough that you mostly just wish they had been matched up in the playoffs more often. I give the nod to Dirk over KG. Dirk can put a team on his back and get things done when no one else will; you can build around the German. KG's a great piece, a championship piece, but just not that kind of guy.

I'd take both those guys over Malone though. No hesitation.

[Nero Tulip]

No he doesn't. Duncan, Barkley, Malone.

The overrating of Malone will have to stop some day. I used to love this player but those who actually watched him know that he doesn't belong in the same category as Duncan.

[ThaSwagg3r]

The overrating of Malone will have to stop some day. I used to love this player but those who actually watched him know that he doesn't belong in the same category as Duncan.
I am pretty sure he was just mentioning the top three PFs of all-time.


No he doesn't. Duncan, Barkley, Malone.
He has an argument over both Malone and Barkley

[Haymaker]

T. Duncan will always have the better B-ball IQ. Garnett was more talent and effort than anything. Duncan always played the game like a veteran.

[Nero Tulip]

Good post. I have Duncan and KG ranked 1 and 2 for 2003 and then KG and Duncan at 1 and 2 for 2004. They were close, though I favor Duncan as far as peak vs peak and prime vs prime without thinking twice.

But with that said, Duncan seems immune to getting blamed for things that KG would(or did get blamed for in similar situations).

Here are 3 examples from Duncan's absolute prime. In fact 3 years from a 4 year stretch which exclude just his peak season in 2003.

2001- Got swept with homecourt advantage by an average margin of almost 22 ppg. Put up big numbers in the first 2 games, but had just 9 points on 3/14 from the field and 3/8 from the line in game 3 and averaged just 12/10 on 8/24 from the field and 8/17 from the line over the final 2 games.

Is it that simple? Of course not, Duncan's second leading scorer Derek Anderson was injured and that Laker team played much better in the playoffs than they did in the regular season. But why give Duncan a pass(even with a valid excuse) when KG doesn't get one?

2002- The Spurs lost to the Lakers for a 2nd consecutive year, this time in 5 games, but the games were close and Duncan didn't play well in the 4th quarters.

Sound familiar? Now KG gets blamed for this sort of thing, but Duncan gets a pass all of these years later(though he did get criticized at the time). Now, if you look past the surface, you can at least factor in that Robinson was injured and this was Duncan's worst cast of his career, imo.

2004- The Spurs went up 2-0 on the Lakers, but lost the next 4 and in those 4 losses, Duncan averaged just 17.5 ppg on 38.3% shooting with 4.3 turnovers per game.

No way KG would get a pass for this.

And this does not reflect my view on Duncan, aside from 2004, I wouldn't have expected him to win those series, and he lost to more talented teams.

But are we forgetting that KG lost to teams that were clearly more talented as well?

1999- Lost to the champion Spurs
2000- Lost to the Blazers
2001- Lost to the Spurs
2002- Lost to the Mavs
2003- Lost to the Lakers
2004- Lost to the Lakers

There's not one year that you can argue KG had a better team than the one he lost to.



Nah, 2000 Terrell Brandon was clearly better than Wally, imo.

Those are nice points, but I should point out that before Garnett joined the Celtics, Duncan had about 3 times as many playoff games as him. In such a large sample size of course you'll find bad performances, and those are lost among the great games he had.

So it's true that Garnett would be blamed, but there's a good reason for that.

[Pointguard]

why didn't the wolves put KG on Dirk and make lesser players beat them?

Especially when it became apparent that KG playing in the zone was making no impact defensively at all.

Could it be that KG actually couldn't stop Dirk? You know...reality.
LOL, now you are resorting to imagining things again? Dirk didn't blast KG. That never happened. That's a delusional reality. You want to believe it happened, but the coach saw no need to put KG on Dirk...

Dirk ran behind a lot of picks, stayed away from the basket. Why take away your only strength to go after a perimeter player? KG would have to run around picks all night and probably not end up on Dirk anyway. If the series was longer he would have had to put KG on Dirk but in three games I guess it happened to fast. Whatever the reasons, coach didn't do it and that's the only reality we have. I know that you have others, but we don't.

KG even outscores Dirk in their head to head meetings and that's with a defender better than Dirk guarding KG most of the time. KG destroys Dirk in every other category, obviously. And in regular season games they let KG guard Dirk.

[Pointguard]

Good post. I have Duncan and KG ranked 1 and 2 for 2003 and then KG and Duncan at 1 and 2 for 2004. They were close, though I favor Duncan as far as peak vs peak and prime vs prime without thinking twice.

But with that said, Duncan seems immune to getting blamed for things that KG would(or did get blamed for in similar situations).

Here are 3 examples from Duncan's absolute prime. In fact 3 years from a 4 year stretch which exclude just his peak season in 2003.

2001- Got swept with homecourt advantage by an average margin of almost 22 ppg. Put up big numbers in the first 2 games, but had just 9 points on 3/14 from the field and 3/8 from the line in game 3 and averaged just 12/10 on 8/24 from the field and 8/17 from the line over the final 2 games.

Is it that simple? Of course not, Duncan's second leading scorer Derek Anderson was injured and that Laker team played much better in the playoffs than they did in the regular season. But why give Duncan a pass(even with a valid excuse) when KG doesn't get one?

2002- The Spurs lost to the Lakers for a 2nd consecutive year, this time in 5 games, but the games were close and Duncan didn't play well in the 4th quarters.

Sound familiar? Now KG gets blamed for this sort of thing, but Duncan gets a pass all of these years later(though he did get criticized at the time). Now, if you look past the surface, you can at least factor in that Robinson was injured and this was Duncan's worst cast of his career, imo.

2004- The Spurs went up 2-0 on the Lakers, but lost the next 4 and in those 4 losses, Duncan averaged just 17.5 ppg on 38.3% shooting with 4.3 turnovers per game.

No way KG would get a pass for this.

And this does not reflect my view on Duncan, aside from 2004, I wouldn't have expected him to win those series, and he lost to more talented teams.

But are we forgetting that KG lost to teams that were clearly more talented as well?

1999- Lost to the champion Spurs
2000- Lost to the Blazers
2001- Lost to the Spurs
2002- Lost to the Mavs
2003- Lost to the Lakers
2004- Lost to the Lakers

There's not one year that you can argue KG had a better team than the one he lost to.

Nah, 2000 Terrell Brandon was clearly better than Wally, imo.

Solid points as usual. I feel the same way. I got Duncan ahead.

[DMAVS41]

LOL, now you are resorting to imagining things again? Dirk didn't blast KG. That never happened. That's a delusional reality. You want to believe it happened, but the coach saw no need to put KG on Dirk...

Dirk ran behind a lot of picks, stayed away from the basket. Why take away your only strength to go after a perimeter player? KG would have to run around picks all night and probably not end up on Dirk anyway. If the series was longer he would have had to put KG on Dirk but in three games I guess it happened to fast. Whatever the reasons, coach didn't do it and that's the only reality we have. I know that you have others, but we don't.

KG even outscores Dirk in their head to head meetings and that's with a defender better than Dirk guarding KG most of the time. KG destroys Dirk in every other category, obviously. And in regular season games they let KG guard Dirk.

Why are you bringing up things outside of the 02 series? I actually have KG over Dirk all time and its true that KG has gotten the best of Dirk head to head.

My response was simply about the 02 series. And you obviously didn't watch it. They did put KG on Dirk at times....and Dirk got everything he wanted. He got to the rim and got open looks.....they took KG off him because it was clear KG couldn't stop him...and it was a waste of his defensive talents.

It just so happened that the Mavs were rolling and KG (in any role) didn't have a defensive impact.

Its not imagining things. Dirk outplayed KG in that series. Just a fact. KG played pretty good, but he shot poorly, didn't impact the series much defensively, and his stats are far greater than his impact.

Again, not sure why you bring up anything else.....I was talking about the 02 series....which is what you brought up in your post.

[D.J.]

The overrating of Malone will have to stop some day. I used to love this player but those who actually watched him know that he doesn't belong in the same category as Duncan.


Duncan is the clear GOAT at PF, but Malone is still top 3 at that position.



He has an argument over both Malone and Barkley


No he doesn't. Duncan is the clear cut #1. 2 and 3 are interchangable between Barkley and Malone. 4-6 is between Dirk, Garnett, and McHale, whichever you prefer.

[knickswin]

The overrating of Malone will have to stop some day. I used to love this player but those who actually watched him know that he doesn't belong in the same category as Duncan.

I agree, I actually always thought Barkley was better and I think Dirk is too. Malone was great, but he was a notch below those guys as a first option. I never watched Malone and though "unstoppable"--at least when he had to create for himself. He had the same problem Garnett had and Bosh has, his go-to move was a not that great midrange shot (granted that's Dirk's go-to move too, but he's the rare bird that's good at it)

[Pointguard]

Why are you bringing up things outside of the 02 series? I actually have KG over Dirk all time and its true that KG has gotten the best of Dirk head to head.

My response was simply about the 02 series. And you obviously didn't watch it. They did put KG on Dirk at times....and Dirk got everything he wanted. He got to the rim and got open looks.....they took KG off him because it was clear KG couldn't stop him...and it was a waste of his defensive talents.

It just so happened that the Mavs were rolling and KG (in any role) didn't have a defensive impact.

Its not imagining things. Dirk outplayed KG in that series. Just a fact. KG played pretty good, but he shot poorly, didn't impact the series much defensively, and his stats are far greater than his impact.

Again, not sure why you bring up anything else.....I was talking about the 02 series....which is what you brought up in your post.

KG guarded Dirk on switches and sometimes on fast breaks. He wasn't assigned to him or taken off of him because he couldn't check him, that's just a lie. KG was rocking 19 rebounds a game and you are saying he was guarding a player that was as much as a perimeter player as Reggie Miller at the time? KG would be on the cover of a Marvel comic strip if he could pull that off.

Dirk was incredibly hot that series, players get that way sometimes. It was an abberation series (just like Stephen Jackson's work on Dirk in '07) it wasn't anything Dirk could do consistently. Its deceptive and false to act like Dirk did it on KG and if KG had Dirk on him he scores more and Dirk scores less. KG averaged 24/19/5 which meant he was doing his thing as well. Dirk did play better because he was hot and his defensive assignment was Rasho who averaged what 6ppg?

[Harison]

Best PF rankings usually include accolades, and there is no question Duncan had the best career. However Timmy spend a lot of his career as center, so some argue he isnt a true PF, but I digress.

Pure skill and impact wise KG has an argument over Duncan, but it again depends how team is managed. Perception is everything, as someone here mentioned, swap those players and Timmy would be seen as a "loser from Minny", while KG de facto best PF ever from Spurs.

As it is now, Duncan is 1st, KG 2nd, as it should be IMO.

[rodman91]

I rather choose prime Duncan,Barkley,Malone and Nowitzki over Garnett.Actually prime Webber could be better as well.

[PowerGlove]

I rather choose prime Duncan,Barkley,Malone and Nowitzki over Garnett.Actually prime Webber could be better as well.
Webber?:facepalm

[ThaSwagg3r]

Actually prime Webber could be better as well.
Seriously? Those other four you listed are fine and arguable but Webber? :wtf:

[rodman91]

Webber,in his Kings years, wasn't far from those players listed.

[L.A. Jazz]

It's the offense that hurts KG. he is no scrub there but not consistent enough among elite competition. on my top 5 PFs of all time KG is no. 5 when i have to decide who gets the ball in the last 5 minutes of a game.

[bizil]

Regardless of rings, I feel Duncan, Barkley, and Garnett are the top three PF's of all time. Now when u thrown in rings and other criteria, then Duncan is the man. But in terms of talent, numbers, and being a great player for a long period of time, I feel KG has a case for the GOAT. He and Barkley are the most versatile PF's of all time in my book. But both could play big like a PF should and combine it with SF or even point forward type of skills. Duncan is very versatile and skilled himself. He combined it with the skillset of a center. Which is very unique shit for a PF as well. But I feel Barkley, KG, and Duncan are the best players to ever play the four. It's a tossup. But in GOAT terms, Duncan is clearly the man.

[rmt]

KG guarded Dirk on switches and sometimes on fast breaks. He wasn't assigned to him or taken off of him because he couldn't check him, that's just a lie. KG was rocking 19 rebounds a game and you are saying he was guarding a player that was as much as a perimeter player as Reggie Miller at the time? KG would be on the cover of a Marvel comic strip if he could pull that off.

So why is it that I read so many posts from KG fans about how versatile a defender he is, how he can guard 4 positions, etc? Would seem to me that Dirk would be an ideal type of player for him to guard. KG's body type is similar to Dirk's (on the thin, wiry side as opposed to the bigger, thicker body types like Duncan) and have heard him referred to as a PF/SF type as opposed to a PF/C type like TD. It would seem to me that in this series, whoever he was guarding (whether it was Dirk or some other perimeter player) that he wasn't effective defensively.

[DMAVS41]

KG guarded Dirk on switches and sometimes on fast breaks. He wasn't assigned to him or taken off of him because he couldn't check him, that's just a lie. KG was rocking 19 rebounds a game and you are saying he was guarding a player that was as much as a perimeter player as Reggie Miller at the time? KG would be on the cover of a Marvel comic strip if he could pull that off.

Dirk was incredibly hot that series, players get that way sometimes. It was an abberation series (just like Stephen Jackson's work on Dirk in '07) it wasn't anything Dirk could do consistently. Its deceptive and false to act like Dirk did it on KG and if KG had Dirk on him he scores more and Dirk scores less. KG averaged 24/19/5 which meant he was doing his thing as well. Dirk did play better because he was hot and his defensive assignment was Rasho who averaged what 6ppg?

I never said Dirk did it solely on KG...but it is you that is making shit up if you act like KG never actually guarded Dirk in sets. False. Here is the video proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmo1L83Vcc

In that one video alone there is evidence that doesn't fit with your description of what happened. KG started off on Dirk in game 2. So this notion that KG just never guarded Dirk is a joke. Dirk wasn't even really that hot......he shot 53%, 43%, 65% in the series.....nothing crazy for Dirk.

Honestly, this is now beyond absurd. The fact that people can't just accept that Dirk outplayed KG in that 02 series is just pathetic. It was obvious to anyone watching the ****ing games. Obvious. And again....I don't really care for the reasons.....KG did nothing to slow down Dirk or any other player on the Mavs. His defensive impact was rarely felt...if ever. And offensively, Dirk was simply much better.

[magnax1]

So why is it that I read so many posts from KG fans about how versatile a defender he is, how he can guard 4 positions, etc? Would seem to me that Dirk would be an ideal type of player for him to guard. KG's body type is similar to Dirk's (on the thin, wiry side as opposed to the bigger, thicker body types like Duncan) and have heard him referred to as a PF/SF type as opposed to a PF/C type like TD. It would seem to me that in this series, whoever he was guarding (whether it was Dirk or some other perimeter player) that he wasn't effective defensively.
KG was effective. It was Nash, Finley and the other perimeter guys pushing the tempo and scoring on the perimeter guys especially Wally on every possession that won the game.

[DMAVS41]

KG was effective. It was Nash, Finley and the other perimeter guys pushing the tempo and scoring on the perimeter guys especially Wally on every possession that won the game.

And it was KG's inability to score efficiently on offense that lost some of the games for the Wolves.

43% against one of the worst defenses in the league just isn't good enough.

[Teanett]

how can he be the best when we saw that duncan and dirk were better when he faced them?

[rmt]

KG was effective. It was Nash, Finley and the other perimeter guys pushing the tempo and scoring on the perimeter guys especially Wally on every possession that won the game.

So, who exactly was KG guarding then?

[magnax1]

So, who exactly was KG guarding then?
Changed from possession to possession. He guarded Dirk for a couple possessions each game, mostly when the bench came in, but he didn't really guard him at all during game 2 and 3 excluding a couple possessions since he got moved almost exclusively to SF on offense and defense.
I think the plan was that he was supposed to guard the opposing SF so he could roam off and help because the Mavs SF position kind of sucked. However, he just ended up guarding whoever he could get to because Wally and Billups weren't getting back quickly enough. Especially off of turnovers, which were pretty rampant.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Garnett will go down as possibly the 2nd best PF ever, neck to neck with TD. I'm counting Hakeem as a center.

[rmt]

KG was effective. It was Nash, Finley and the other perimeter guys pushing the tempo and scoring on the perimeter guys especially Wally on every possession that won the game.


Changed from possession to possession. He guarded Dirk for a couple possessions each game, mostly when the bench came in, but he didn't really guard him at all during game 2 and 3 excluding a couple possessions since he got moved almost exclusively to SF on offense and defense.
I think the plan was that he was supposed to guard the opposing SF so he could roam off and help because the Mavs SF position kind of sucked. However, he just ended up guarding whoever he could get to because Wally and Billups weren't getting back quickly enough. Especially off of turnovers, which were pretty rampant.

So who was KG effective against? If, as you say, KG didn't guard Dirk during games 2 and 3 and he was helping Wally (Finley's defender) and Billups (Nash's defender), then KG was not effective because Finley averaged 29 and Nash 21 in those games.

[DMAVS41]

So who was KG effective against? If, as you say, KG didn't guard Dirk during games 2 and 3 and he was helping Wally (Finley's defender) and Billups (Nash's defender), then KG was not effective because Finley averaged 29 and Nash 21 in those games.

That would be nobody. KG's defense made almost no impact on that series. The Mavs were scoring 8 more ppg than the regular season on pretty solid efficiency across the board.

The player that played KG's position on the opponent torched the wolves. And, according to him...so did everyone else on the Mavs.

He wasn't effective on defense because he didn't make much of an impact. He was great on the defensive boards though...that matters. Other than that, he didn't do much of anything to stop the Mavs from scoring.

[Pointguard]

I never said Dirk did it solely on KG...but it is you that is making shit up if you act like KG never actually guarded Dirk in sets. False. Here is the video proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmo1L83Vcc

In that one video alone there is evidence that doesn't fit with your description of what happened. KG started off on Dirk in game 2. So this notion that KG just never guarded Dirk is a joke.

KG outplayed Dirk in that game btw. My statement was: "KG guarded Dirk on switches and sometimes on fast breaks." If he was guarding him, he wasn't guarding him any length of time. Dirk was just hot from the outside. He wasn't taking anybody off of the dribble. He was hot. KG was not assigned to him. Dirk was more perimeter than Reggie Miller. If he was missing his outside shot he sucks big time. It could go either way, good luck or bad luck. It wasn't like he was all world and doing it a variety of ways either. Did Dirk ever have another series like that one?


Dirk wasn't even really that hot......he shot 53%, 43%, 65% in the series.....nothing crazy for Dirk.
Dirk was never that hot again over three games in his life.


Honestly, this is now beyond absurd. The fact that people can't just accept that Dirk outplayed KG in that 02 series is just pathetic.
When you get flustered you just start making stuff up, loose reading comprehension and get real dramatic. I said Dirk had a better series. But Dirk isn't like other great power forwards. Dirk doesn't rebound in the regular season and then in the playoffs he plays the weakest link on defense. Dirk has a crutch system, a handicap when he plays - regular season and the postseason in most of his years. If Dirk plays KG straight up KG's 24/19/5 has to go up. And Dirk exerts some energy on defense.

One more thing about the series. Dallas pushed the ball extremely hard and they were all hot. Flip Sanders is a horrible defensive coach (right now he has a team that could be the best defensive team ever - like the Atlanta Hawks on steroids but they don't play defense). Flip simply had no counter to what the Mavs were doing.

[Odinn]

Dirk was never that hot again over three games in his life.

Not true.

In the 2009 Playofffs, against Denver Nuggets;
34.4 ppg
11.6 rpg
4.0 apg
0.534 fg
0.385 3pt. (5/13, he didn't try many 3s)
0.919 ft

FG%s; 0.545 , 0.550 , 0.474 , 0.560 , 0.529

---

In the 2011 Playoffs, agains LA Lakers;
25.3 ppg
9.3 rpg
2.5 apg
0.574 fg
0.727 3pt.
0.938 ft

FG%s; 0.500 , 0.563 , 0.632 , 0.636

Also, in the 2006 playoffs he averaged 27.1 ppg against Duncan and he was 52.7% from the field. (irrelevant ps: Duncan outperformed him in that series.)

[DMAVS41]

KG outplayed Dirk in that game btw. My statement was: "KG guarded Dirk on switches and sometimes on fast breaks." If he was guarding him, he wasn't guarding him any length of time. Dirk was just hot from the outside. He wasn't taking anybody off of the dribble. He was hot. KG was not assigned to him. Dirk was more perimeter than Reggie Miller. If he was missing his outside shot he sucks big time. It could go either way, good luck or bad luck. It wasn't like he was all world and doing it a variety of ways either. Did Dirk ever have another series like that one?

Dirk was never that hot again over three games in his life.

When you get flustered you just start making stuff up, loose reading comprehension and get real dramatic. I said Dirk had a better series. But Dirk isn't like other great power forwards. Dirk doesn't rebound in the regular season and then in the playoffs he plays the weakest link on defense. Dirk has a crutch system, a handicap when he plays - regular season and the postseason in most of his years. If Dirk plays KG straight up KG's 24/19/5 has to go up. And Dirk exerts some energy on defense.

One more thing about the series. Dallas pushed the ball extremely hard and they were all hot. Flip Sanders is a horrible defensive coach (right now he has a team that could be the best defensive team ever - like the Atlanta Hawks on steroids but they don't play defense). Flip simply had no counter to what the Mavs were doing.


Ignoring for a second that if Dirk had never again been that hot in a series its an argument that works against you. LOL...you know, I wouldn't go around touting that KG would destroy Dirk head to head and then turn around and say that was Dirk's best offense series ever. Are you serious? You do realize that isn't an argument that supports your side...right?

But of course that is complete and total utter bs.

2006....Spurs vs Mavs.....last four games of the series....including a game 7...against a team that lost exactly 1 playoff series in 3 years (to the Mavs/Dirk)...with one of the greatest players of all time playing the same position as Dirk on the team....without homecourt:

28/9/3 58% fg 75% TS
31/10/4 59% fg 65% TS
26/21/5 56% fg 67% TS
37/15/3 55% fg 68% TS

Still think you know anything about Dirk? Still think he was never that hot again? That is the stuff of legends right there my friend. 4 straight absolutely great playoff games against the best team in the league with a top 10 player of all time playing great. LOL at saying 02 was Dirk peaking.....educate yourself son.

The difference? It was far more impressive to do it against a better player in Duncan is games that actually mattered. Not some first round series in which KG's defense made no impact and he couldn't even score efficiently against a terrible defense. Again...if Dirk's defense is so bad....and we all know the rest of the Mavs played horrible defense....who was stopping KG???? LOL

And there are many more examples of Dirk playing far better than he did against the Wolves in that series.

Just admit you are wrong. Admit you actually don't know shit about Dirk. You actually think the 02 series was the best he ever played? GTFO.....

[Pointguard]

So why is it that I read so many posts from KG fans about how versatile a defender he is, how he can guard 4 positions, etc? Would seem to me that Dirk would be an ideal type of player for him to guard. KG's body type is similar to Dirk's (on the thin, wiry side as opposed to the bigger, thicker body types like Duncan) and have heard him referred to as a PF/SF type as opposed to a PF/C type like TD. It would seem to me that in this series, whoever he was guarding (whether it was Dirk or some other perimeter player) that he wasn't effective defensively.

Are you in doubt about KG's defensive ability? Dirk runs behind screens and stays on the perimeter. Putting KG on Dirk destroys Minny's only dependable strength. But I can't tell you what's on Flip Sanders mind. Dallas was pushing the ball hard and played helter skelter - exactly what the Warriors did the Mavs in 07. Flip wasn't a good defensive coach and KG was vastly underutilized. You could see the many more dimensions Thibes had for KG.

[DMAVS41]

Are you in doubt about KG's defensive ability? Dirk runs behind screens and stays on the perimeter. Putting KG on Dirk destroys Minny's only dependable strength. But I can't tell you what's on Flip Sanders mind. Dallas was pushing the ball hard and played helter skelter - exactly what the Warriors did the Mavs in 07. Flip wasn't a good defensive coach and KG was vastly underutilized. You could see the many more dimensions Thibes had for KG.

We are in doubt over KG's ability to make an impact defensively in that series. I don't really care the reasons.....he just wasn't as good as Dirk in that series.

And no, KG has never been a great 1 on 1 defender....he's good of course, but his value lies in team defense. It just so happens that he wasn't able to make a defensive impact in the series.

So all this talk about "just scoring" makes no sense. KG didn't do anything defensively. And his rebounding was really only marginally better.

You can continue to look like a fool and act like Dirk was playing the best ball of his career or whatever....but that is far from the truth. The fact that you actually think that shows you have no clue what you are talking about.

It sounds like you are willing to concede that Dirk outplayed KG now anyway....so i'm done with this.

[magnax1]

So who was KG effective against? If, as you say, KG didn't guard Dirk during games 2 and 3 and he was helping Wally (Finley's defender) and Billups (Nash's defender), then KG was not effective because Finley averaged 29 and Nash 21 in those games.
KG was not the one guarding Finley or Nash.

[rmt]

Changed from possession to possession. He guarded Dirk for a couple possessions each game, mostly when the bench came in, but he didn't really guard him at all during game 2 and 3 excluding a couple possessions since he got moved almost exclusively to SF on offense and defense.
I think the plan was that he was supposed to guard the opposing SF so he could roam off and help because the Mavs SF position kind of sucked. However, he just ended up guarding whoever he could get to because Wally and Billups weren't getting back quickly enough. Especially off of turnovers, which were pretty rampant.


KG was not the one guarding Finley or Nash.

KG was not guarding Dirk, Finley or Nash and he's roaming off the Mavs SF (13mins) who sucked. So that leaves LaFrentz (10pts), Najera (8pts) and Van Exel (9pts). Rasho averaged 31 mins so he must be guarding either LaFrentz or Najera and KG's not guarding Van Exel. So, please tell me again who KG was guarding so effectively.

[Pointguard]

Ignoring for a second that if Dirk had never again been that hot in a series its an argument that works against you. LOL...you know, I wouldn't go around touting that KG would destroy Dirk head to head and then turn around and say that was Dirk's best offense series ever. Wow, let me just keep count on how bad you intepret things. Example 4. KG wasn't guarding Dirk! Dirk had his best series ever because he was hot from the perimeter while being guarded by players other that KG a vast majority of the series. It was anything but Mano a Mano.



28/9/3 58% fg 75% TS
31/10/4 59% fg 65% TS
26/21/5 56% fg 67% TS
37/15/3 55% fg 68% TS

Still think you know anything about Dirk? Still think he was never that hot again? That is the stuff of legends right there my friend. 4 straight absolutely great playoff games against the best team in the league with a top 10 player of all time playing great. LOL at saying 02 was Dirk peaking.....educate yourself son.

Are you on crack? Dirk was hotter in the Minny series '02. 33/17 is better than 30/16 and he was making more threes, he was scoring more and just on go. You are caught up in the dramatics of the game. He was hot in 06 too but he wasn't as prolific. I think he played better and smarter in the SA series and had a better all around offensive game, but he scored more and shot without conscience in 02.


The difference? It was far more impressive to do it against a better player in Duncan is games that actually mattered. Not some first round series in which KG's defense made no impact and he couldn't even score efficiently against a terrible defense. Again...if Dirk's defense is so bad....and we all know the rest of the Mavs played horrible defense....who was stopping KG???? LOL
LOL, Dirk plays with a handicap, you know he wasn't guarding Duncan.
On the second point KG scored 24ppg and another 10ppg on assist. Who was stopping him? You tell me? He still was accountable for the same amount of points as Dirk and outrebounded him in Dirk's hottest playoff series ever. And Dirk is two dimensional on his best days. But I hear you this is Dirk's light in the sun on KG.



And there are many more examples of Dirk playing far better than he did against the Wolves in that series......
Sorry buddy you didn't prove it the first time nor can you prove it another time.


Just admit you are wrong. Admit you actually don't know shit about Dirk. You actually think the 02 series was the best he ever played? GTFO.....
LOL at you having another transcendent moment at the expense of reality. Dirk, and his handicap in H2H competition doesn't do anything better than KG. And this is with Dirk's handicap being a better defender than he is. KG has a 55% point advantage and Dirk is a basically a specialist. Want to guess who is better at steals, blocks, assist, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds. 33 games is a large sample and it doesn't even seem like we are comparing equals - And this is with Dirk's handicap.

[magnax1]

KG was not guarding Dirk, Finley or Nash and he's roaming off the Mavs SF (13mins) who sucked. So that leaves LaFrentz (10pts), Najera (8pts) and Van Exel (9pts). Rasho averaged 31 mins so he must be guarding either LaFrentz or Najera and KG's not guarding Van Exel. So, please tell me again who KG was guarding so effectively.
I don't know what exactly you're trying to imply. That I'm not telling the truth about who he's guarding? If you think so, then just go look it up on youtube. That KG isn't one of the best defenders ever? Can't you just watch a game from last year to figure that out? That KG can't stop Wally from being an atrocious defender and not getting back fast enough?

[rmt]

Changed from possession to possession. He guarded Dirk for a couple possessions each game, mostly when the bench came in, but he didn't really guard him at all during game 2 and 3 excluding a couple possessions since he got moved almost exclusively to SF on offense and defense.
I think the plan was that he was supposed to guard the opposing SF so he could roam off and help because the Mavs SF position kind of sucked. However, he just ended up guarding whoever he could get to because Wally and Billups weren't getting back quickly enough. Especially off of turnovers, which were pretty rampant.


KG was not the one guarding Finley or Nash.

KG was not guarding Dirk, Finley or Nash and he's roaming off the Mavs SF (13mins) who sucked. So that leaves LaFrentz (10pts), Najera (8pts) and Van Exel (9pts). Rasho averaged 31 mins so he must be guarding either LaFrentz or Najera and KG's not guarding Van Exel. So, please tell me again who KG was guarding so effectively.

Edit: sorry for the double post

[Pointguard]

We are in doubt over KG's ability to make an impact defensively in that series. I don't really care the reasons.....he just wasn't as good as Dirk in that series.

And no, KG has never been a great 1 on 1 defender....he's good of course, but his value lies in team defense. It just so happens that he wasn't able to make a defensive impact in the series.

So all this talk about "just scoring" makes no sense. KG didn't do anything defensively. And his rebounding was really only marginally better.
Three full rebounds per game isn't maginal. The produced scoring is only .7 in Dirk's favor. Now that's minimal. This is Dirk's playoff series of his life.



You can continue to look like a fool and act like Dirk was playing the best ball of his career or whatever....but that is far from the truth. The fact that you actually think that shows you have no clue what you are talking about..
Show me a series where Dirk was hotter and scored more. Simple task. It isn't out there. ERGO you are yet again being delusional and trying to displace it on me. You are his biggest fan this shouldn't be that hard. Who is the fool if I can call out your guys peak and you didn't know it? Don't you feel stupid???


It sounds like you are willing to concede that Dirk outplayed KG now anyway....so i'm done with this.
I don't know if you are in denial or caught in a stupid zone. I said Dirk played better than KG in at least three other post. You also keep saying Dirk had a better series and you haven't shown me that either. That was Dirk best playoff series ever.

[Pointguard]

KG was not guarding Dirk, Finley or Nash and he's roaming off the Mavs SF (13mins) who sucked. So that leaves LaFrentz (10pts), Najera (8pts) and Van Exel (9pts). Rasho averaged 31 mins so he must be guarding either LaFrentz or Najera and KG's not guarding Van Exel. So, please tell me again who KG was guarding so effectively.

Watch the video. Tell me what you think Minny's defensive strategy was? If you can't describe it, its on the coach. KG seems to be stuck between a roaming zone and something that could be described as a triangle crack cocaine defense. It's a truly busted system. Dallas had created enough chaos that players rarely occupied the spot they were supposed to. Momentum had totally engulfed Minny.

[DMAVS41]

Three full rebounds per game isn't maginal. The produced scoring is only .7 in Dirk's favor. Now that's minimal. This is Dirk's playoff series of his life.


Show me a series where Dirk was hotter and scored more. Simple task. It isn't out there. ERGO you are yet again being delusional and trying to displace it on me. You are his biggest fan this shouldn't be that hard. Who is the fool if I can call out your guys peak and you didn't know it? Don't you feel stupid???

I don't know if you are in denial or caught in a stupid zone. I said Dirk played better than KG in at least three other post. You also keep saying Dirk had a better series and you haven't shown me that either. That was Dirk best playoff series ever.


Are you serious? You think that was Dirk's best playoff series ever? What the **** are you on? At first you asked for a 3 game stretch in which Dirk was hotter. I showed you a 4 game stretch against a better player and better team.

Now its a playoff series? OK......you ****ing ignorant moron:

09 Nuggets

28/10/4
35/9/4
33/16/2
44/13/3
32/10/7

You also have to take circumstances into account. The Wolves were awful in that series defensively (including your boy) and it was easy to get everything Dirk wanted....LOL

Dirk's performance against the 06 Spurs.....the 09 Nuggets.....the 11 Thunder and the 11 Lakers are all far more impressive.

in 02 Dirk averaged 33 a game on 52.6% from the field against the wolves. that was not the best series of Dirk's career. If you honestly believe that you know even less than it looks like.

And again, if it was Dirk's best playoff series ever...which it wasn't...but if it was....it came against your boy. Your boy that plays the same position.....ROFL

[Pointguard]

Are you serious? You think that was Dirk's best playoff series ever? What the **** are you on? At first you asked for a 3 game stretch in which Dirk was hotter. I showed you a 4 game stretch against a better player and better team.

Now its a playoff series? OK......you ****ing ignorant moron:

09 Nuggets

28/10/4
35/9/4
33/16/2
44/13/3
32/10/7

You also have to take circumstances into account. The Wolves were awful in that series defensively (including your boy) and it was easy to get everything Dirk wanted....LOL

Dirk's performance against the 06 Spurs.....the 09 Nuggets.....the 11 Thunder and the 11 Lakers are all far more impressive.

in 02 Dirk averaged 33 a game on 52.6% from the field against the wolves. that was not the best series of Dirk's career. If you honestly believe that you know even less than it looks like.

Your boy already said the Nuggets 20 post up. But we know the Nuggets don't play defense. Even you didn't pick up on his argument.


And again, if it was Dirk's best playoff series ever...which it wasn't...but if it was....it came against your boy. Your boy that plays the same position.....ROFL
LOL, yes I understand you laughing because Dirk doesn't really play the same position. The majority of Dirk's career he played with a handicap. Its never man to man with Dirk. He was running behind picks and didn't play with the big boys. Now, KG and Duncan! they went at each other hard and like true big men - true wars with incredible give and take and equality in their battles - even in the playoffs its marked by each giving a levelness rarely seen in the sport.

Dirk doesn't do the big man thing. His handicap guards those guys. Both KG and TD rip Dirk's handicap for 52% shooting and both score as much as Dirk in their head to head battles and both categorically are better in all non shooting areas. He doesn't have their intensity. He plays about half of their game.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Webber?:facepalm

this


Webber,in his Kings years, wasn't far from those players listed.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kevin%20Garnett/Playoffs%201%20%20Wolves/NBAPlayoffs20040519Kings-WolvesG-1.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kevin%20Garnett/VS/Chris%20Webber/chriswebbercantstopkevingarnett2.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kevin%20Garnett/VS/Chris%20Webber/chriswebbercantstopkevingarnett1.gif

As result,

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kevin%20Garnett/Playoffs%201%20%20Wolves/06dd009f.jpg

[Harison]

Three full rebounds per game isn't maginal. The produced scoring is only .7 in Dirk's favor. Now that's minimal. This is Dirk's playoff series of his life.

Indeed, some fans cant understand few games sample doesnt matter much when we're considering players careers and their level of play.

For example, Stephen Jackson walked all over prime Dirk in '07, beating 1st seed Mavs as 8th seed GSW. Close out game Jackson 33 PTS (52.6% FG) vs Dirk 8 PTS (15.4%(!) FG, 0-6 from 3PT).

Or we could remember how Amare was burning Duncan, or countless other hot streaks by inferior players. In the same way few games sample by Dirk in '02 means just as much :rolleyes: Or for argument sake we could use Dirk's fanboy logic shown here, and apply it to Dirk, claiming he is worse than Stephen Jackson :cheers: Ridiculous? Exactly, thats how much worth Dirk's fanboys logic is.

[rodman91]

this



http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kevin%20Garnett/Playoffs%201%20%20Wolves/NBAPlayoffs20040519Kings-WolvesG-1.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kevin%20Garnett/VS/Chris%20Webber/chriswebbercantstopkevingarnett2.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kevin%20Garnett/VS/Chris%20Webber/chriswebbercantstopkevingarnett1.gif

As result,

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kevin%20Garnett/Playoffs%201%20%20Wolves/06dd009f.jpg

I didn't say Webber is better than Garnett.But when he was in Kings, he was almost as good as Garnett.

Btw,Webber has never been same player due to his famous knee injury which happened before Kings vs Timberwolves.

He played only 23 games that season and never able to be same player he was before.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20Crazy%20Shot/from%20Crazy%20Pass/e0b5122b.gif
Thanks for the gif.

[All Net]

Yeah that injury ruined webber, such a shame too. Dude was great before he got hurt.

[Pointguard]

Indeed, some fans cant understand few games sample doesnt matter much when we're considering players careers and their level of play.

For example, Stephen Jackson walked all over prime Dirk in '07, beating 1st seed Mavs as 8th seed GSW. Close out game Jackson 33 PTS (52.6% FG) vs Dirk 8 PTS (15.4%(!) FG, 0-6 from 3PT).

Or we could remember how Amare was burning Duncan, or countless other hot streaks by inferior players. In the same way few games sample by Dirk in '02 means just as much :rolleyes: Or for argument sake we could use Dirk's fanboy logic shown here, and apply it to Dirk, claiming he is worse than Stephen Jackson :cheers: Ridiculous? Exactly, thats how much worth Dirk's fanboys logic is.

Thanks Harison, some folks will act like '02 is proof of the Big bang theory.

[DMAVS41]

Your boy already said the Nuggets 20 post up. But we know the Nuggets don't play defense. Even you didn't pick up on his argument.

LOL, yes I understand you laughing because Dirk doesn't really play the same position. The majority of Dirk's career he played with a handicap. Its never man to man with Dirk. He was running behind picks and didn't play with the big boys. Now, KG and Duncan! they went at each other hard and like true big men - true wars with incredible give and take and equality in their battles - even in the playoffs its marked by each giving a levelness rarely seen in the sport.

Dirk doesn't do the big man thing. His handicap guards those guys. Both KG and TD rip Dirk's handicap for 52% shooting and both score as much as Dirk in their head to head battles and both categorically are better in all non shooting areas. He doesn't have their intensity. He plays about half of their game.

Stop changing the argument. This was about 02...and you being seriously misinformed about Dirk's playoff career.

I will say again:

I rank both Duncan and KG over Dirk all time. Although I do think Dirk will ultimately pass KG on my list....

Nobody is using 02 to say Dirk is better than KG...it was only 3 games. I solely was arguing with you about that series. You brought up all the other irrelevant stuff....not me.

[DMAVS41]

Indeed, some fans cant understand few games sample doesnt matter much when we're considering players careers and their level of play.

For example, Stephen Jackson walked all over prime Dirk in '07, beating 1st seed Mavs as 8th seed GSW. Close out game Jackson 33 PTS (52.6% FG) vs Dirk 8 PTS (15.4%(!) FG, 0-6 from 3PT).

Or we could remember how Amare was burning Duncan, or countless other hot streaks by inferior players. In the same way few games sample by Dirk in '02 means just as much :rolleyes: Or for argument sake we could use Dirk's fanboy logic shown here, and apply it to Dirk, claiming he is worse than Stephen Jackson :cheers: Ridiculous? Exactly, thats how much worth Dirk's fanboys logic is.

Has anyone said that? Nope....so you can keep on pretending like I have ever said that the 02 series means anything. Never said it did.

All I said was that Dirk was better than KG in that series...and that a better player like Duncan would have had more success with that 02 Wolves team than KG did.

Stop spewing BS like I have been saying that 02 proves something. All it proves is that Dirk outplayed KG head to head in a playoff series that year. Thats it...nothing more.

[ZaaaaaH]

Duncan is the better Power Forward/ Big man. KG is very versatile with more skills but Duncan is much more effective as a BIG which is more important to ur team. Duncan is also smarter and does not shy away in Clutch moments. I can def say KG might of won maybe 1 or 2 rings with Duncans squad and Pop being his coach but what Duncan has done during his Peak was unstoppable. Only thing I dont like about Duncans career is not winning Back 2 Back which hurts him in my rankings but other then that He has done it all.

[Round Mound]

Great All Around Player and Played Some SF Too.

Although Barkley, Duncan and Malone where more dominant.

[Teanett]

91-93 barkley > any version of kg
*but kg is the better defender*... fukk it barkley was the better player.

[Pointguard]

Duncan is the better Power Forward/ Big man. KG is very versatile with more skills but Duncan is much more effective as a BIG which is more important to ur team. Duncan is also smarter and does not shy away in Clutch moments. I can def say KG might of won maybe 1 or 2 rings with Duncans squad and Pop being his coach but what Duncan has done during his Peak was unstoppable. Only thing I dont like about Duncans career is not winning Back 2 Back which hurts him in my rankings but other then that He has done it all.
I agree with you Zaaah, but why do you think KG isn't as smart? I think Duncan and Pop were an extension of each other and they got a lot of out of each other because they were in accord. KG was more talented than Flip could coach and was somewhat underutilized. In Thibes defensive system and his offensive versatility he makes more right decisions to close out offensive schemes and how and when to make the right offensive play as good as any bigman ever.

In Thibes defensive system KG was operating the command center and made quick decisions and could commit to them quicker than most other big men could but KG was also telling the defense how to shift and forecast plays. On offense he always made an option (pass or shoot) of plays as good as any other big man.

[ZaaaaaH]

I agree with you Zaaah, but why do you think KG isn't as smart? I think Duncan and Pop were an extension of each other and they got a lot of out of each other because they were in accord. KG was more talented than Flip could coach and was somewhat underutilized. In Thibes defensive system and his offensive versatility he makes more right decisions to close out offensive schemes and how and when to make the right offensive play as good as any bigman ever.

In Thibes defensive system KG was operating the command center and made quick decisions and could commit to them quicker than most other big men could but KG was also telling the defense how to shift and forecast plays. On offense he always made an option (pass or shoot) of plays as good as any other big man.


I never said KG was not smart. KG is actually very smart as a Basketball player. KG sometime is too smart for his own good and pass the ball too often especially when he was in TWolves. He wanted to make the Correct play so he rarely force up shots but imo as a Franchise player/ Star you need to take over and take some bad shots to get urself going. During Boston it clearly show how great of a Defender KG was since he had a lot of vets who knew how to rotate. This is why a lot of stars struggle playing against Boston since there is always someone shadowing from behind which KG is amazing at.

Yea I think Pop really helped out Duncan a lot but then again I could be wrong because Duncan was a beast soon as he step in to the League. :D

Honestly I really love both players equally and watched since they were drafted and they are both very different but it is a lot easier to build around Duncan and also the skill set Duncan carries is more effective then KG's skill set and that is my main reason I vote Duncan from rings aside.

[Big#50]

I agree with you Zaaah, but why do you think KG isn't as smart? I think Duncan and Pop were an extension of each other and they got a lot of out of each other because they were in accord. KG was more talented than Flip could coach and was somewhat underutilized. In Thibes defensive system and his offensive versatility he makes more right decisions to close out offensive schemes and how and when to make the right offensive play as good as any bigman ever.

In Thibes defensive system KG was operating the command center and made quick decisions and could commit to them quicker than most other big men could but KG was also telling the defense how to shift and forecast plays. On offense he always made an option (pass or shoot) of plays as good as any other big man.
**** POP. You must not have seen Duncan play at Wake. Dude was destined for greatness. Pop had never coached before. All this stuff people write about POP and his system is the reason Tim won rings is bullshit. Pop's system works because of Tim ****ing Duncan. Not a jab at you btw.

[twintowers]

Garnett>> Duncan

Without ginobili and parker duncan is nothing.

Without ginobili and parker duncan won 99 you damn kid...without pierce and allen garnett would have won it...never :violin:

[Pointguard]

**** POP. You must not have seen Duncan play at Wake. Dude was destined for greatness. Pop had never coached before. All this stuff people write about POP and his system is the reason Tim won rings is bullshit. Pop's system works because of Tim ****ing Duncan. Not a jab at you btw.

Hey Big, I hear you and its all good. I'm not saying Pop made Time by any means. I think Pop was defensive minded and would have utilized KG a lot better than Flip Sanders did. I think Duncan would do better than KG in more situations than vice versa with coaches because Duncan plays bigger and more traditional. A big that plays defense primarily with his feet as KG did is rare and needs a kind of innovative defensive coach to get the max out of him. With that said, I think Flip even butchers up Duncan if he had him. I have Tim only behind the big five in my GOAT list. I also have Tim as doing the most with the least.