ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #14 - Allen Iverson vs. Gary Payton

[G.O.A.T]

Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Allen Iverson or Gary Payton should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #15 in our project.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-q6f4kgWCdXk/TdLTLSZWkfI/AAAAAAAABfQ/73ZmgB6TYTc/s1600/Allen%2BIverson.jpg

14 seasons
7x all-NBA
10x all-star
2001 MVP
1997 Rookie of the Year
2001 & 2005 All-Star Game MVP
4x Scoring Champion
3x Steals Leader
6th All-time career PPG (26.7)

Votes (3)
WillC
magnax1
Toizumi



http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2008/04/gary-payton-sonics-425.jpg


17 seasons
9x all-NBA
9x all-star
9x all-defensive (all 1st team)
1996 DPOTY
1x steals leader
4th all-time in steals
8th all-time in assists
2006 NBA Champion

Votes (13)
crossover
Shaqattack3234
iamgine
ThaSwagg3r
SteveNashMVPcro
KGMN
Boston C's
nycelt84
Gotterdammerung
SuperPippen
1987 Lakers
Rose
RobertdeMeijer

[ballerz]

Gary Payton

[G.O.A.T]

SuperPippen added to the project roster, now has a vote.

[crosso√er]

This is really tough; Iverson is a more legendary name but Payton did more things for a team on the basketball court. Both were relatively small but Gary had that physicality to him very few small guards had. He was one of the absolute greatest point guard at going in the low post, bullying-up his man and getting the bucket. Iverson was obviously on a different tier, scoring wise. He was as creative as we've seen from a guard his size; and because of his size and the position he played, he had to be a demi-god in order to achieve everything he has on his resume.

I'm torn between this match-up; I actually had an easier time choosing Gervin over Iverson mostly because Iceman was simply better then Iverson at the one thing both players are known for. However, I don't think Gary can actually carry a team like Iverson could. He is a terrific 2nd option but I've never known Gary to take-over games like Isiah could. Both were ball-dominant guards and honestly; I wouldn't say Iverson was any worse of a passer then Gary. Despite being ranked 8th overall in career assists, Gary was never an eye-opening passer to me. It seemed like he racked up assists mostly because he controlled the ball so often. I don't think their assist numbers would have any discrepancy if Iverson didn't take more shots and was expected to scorer.

To me Iverson is a better scorer (clearly) and Payton was a far greater defensive presence. Now everything else I simply need to put in perspective for me to make a valid conclusion.

Success = A Draw, I wouldn't give anyone the edge. Iverson led his team to the championship; Payton had a great team around him every-time he went deep in the playoffs. Him winning a title in 06' doesn't hold much water to me, since he wasn't a focal point to that championship squad.

Impact = A Draw, I think Iverson being a better scorer is neutralized by Gary's prolific defensive prowess, scoring efficiency & being better at protecting the ball. Gary also naturally (due to his position) had more assists per game and even had the edge in the rebounding department. Both played the passing lanes really well but Payton could actually dominate an opposing guard defensively (man to man, help, low-post, passing lanes etc.). Iverson could not; he often gambled defensively and was no where near as ferocious.

Defense = Payton, by a landslide.

Personal Accolades = A Draw.

Iverson's case: MVP, ROTY, 4 scoring titles, 1 All-Star & 1 All-NBA
Payton's case: DPOTY & 9 more All-Defensive teams.

Uhm, Iverson clearly demonstrated his superiority by placing the ball in the basket. He was rewarded four times and even won the MVP. Payton on the other hand, dominated at something he was known for (aka The Glove); defense. In my opinion, his legacy should live longer then Iverson's; but it won't because a casual fan doesn't care about defense or fundamentals, they tend to give love to those players who were really spectacular at one particular thing (Iverson was also flashier & more exciting to watch due to his creativity & crossovers). His defensive accolades exceed Iverson's scoring accomplishments, IMHO. AI was a ball-dominant guard who didn't have an overly impressive FG%, TS%, PPS etc. He racked up points and will always be known as one of the greatest scoring guards of All-Time. Payton quite possibly is the greatest defensive guard of All-Time; perhaps that's a stretch, but he is certainly higher on his respective ladder then Allen Iverson is on his. There's only about four/five guards that have ever won the illustrious DPOTY award; how many times has a guard collected the scoring title?

In conclusion, I pick Gary Payton. I believe he would make my team better more times then Iverson would. He brings a little of everything to the table; efficient scorer, capable scorer, great rebounder (due to his physicality), good passer, terrific ball-handler, legendary defender and most importantly fierce competitor. Their resumes are almost identical; Iverson might have slightly more personal accolades but that's only because he excelled at something that put him in an ideal position to win awards that media tends to favor. However, Gary's resume is just as legendary and he kept his team's more relevant for longer. Surely Iverson has had more highlight reel moments and will be remembered for his clutch performances; but that's only because people have a selective memory and will never really reminiscence on all the times he was a detriment to team success.

Payton is my choice, yep, it took a bit of convincing on my part.
It's definitely close.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I vote for Gary Payton. Much better defender and while he wasn't the scorer that Iverson was, he was a better passer/playmaker(though not by that much). I also saw Payton fit in very successfully with talent, but carry bad teams as well. Look at the 1999-2002 Sonics, all worse than Iverson's Sixer teams defensively and some were not that much better offensively playing in a much tougher conference and the worst they finished was .500. With that being said, Payton had some bad habits as well, such as being pretty ball dominant, and as his career went on, his shot selection got more questionable. But I've seen Payton on three 60+ win teams as the best or second best player, he's also reached the finals as the best player(in a better conference than Iverson), he's carried teams and co-existed with stars, so I'd be more confident building a team around him. Though a lot of that has to do with Payton being a 6'4" point guard and Iverson being a 6'0" shooting guard. I've also always liked guards who can post up, and Payton was one of the best post up guards.

With that being said, their primes and peaks aren't far apart, and I think that you could make a case for Iverson having the better peak.

[HylianNightmare]

Iverson

though i'm thinkin payton takes this one

[Kellogs4toniee]

Gary Payton to me, and it's a pretty solid choice, don't really have to think about it too much. Payton is one of the most complete guards to ever play the game. His defense wasn't just upper tier, it was elite of elite status for most of his career. Easily one of the best scoring point guards of not only his generation, but all time. Could have easily signed for up to 35 mil but signed the mid-level to go ring chasing, which is what he should be doing at that point in his career. Ultimately won a ring, albeit as a role player.

Iverson had a greater cultural impact, scored more (which makes sense becuase he was predominantly a SG and never had another scorer by him at Kemps level when on the 76er's), and was a very good off ball defender in his prime. But Payton's 10+ years of elite balance, rival'ed only by Jordan (in terms of overall offense and defense), trumps Iveron's elite scoring years and team success. Factor it to the quality of team-mates or not, but Payton simply had better team success. This is a good thing because it postively correlates directly to his role on the team : the point guard.

[iamgine]

I had Payton at #13 and Iverson at #14.

[PTB Fan]

Gary Payton

I'd argue him over AI for couple of reasons and they are:

-All-Around Game:He was one of the most complete players of all time, who did everything right, was terrific offensively and defensively as well. He patrolled the passing lanes well. He beats AI in this aspect.


Defense:Payton was simply said, one of the best defenders in the NBA History. He was arguably the most elite defensive PG, whose ability to defend the ball were arguably second to none. His perimeter defense was the best ever too and he was superb on the lanes.

It's safe to say that Payton was arguably the top defender of all time!



Achievements: Payton's resume is just as good as AI's.


Passing: While AI was excellent passer for a guy with a scorer's mentality, he wasn't greater passer than Payton. Gary ranks top 10 in terms of career assists and he led the league in assists.

[CAstill]

I pick GP too but he has never lead a team to the finals as the best player.
96 Kemp>>>anyone in the league that year (yup MJ too)
Go back and watch the whole playoff run. Kemp was better in every series and was given the chances for the game winners. How you going to give a PF the chance to try to hit a game winner to go to the finals when you have a DPOY shooting point gaurd GP that was deadly from the three and could back down his defender at will? CUZ KEMP WAS BETTER! Kemp didn't miss and choke on FT's when the game was on the line. Kemp's 96 turnaround and fadeaway that he learned from Jordan was unstoppable. GP did give WADE that ring in 06 though when he hit that 3 from the corner in game 5 i believe. And he definitely cost the Lakers 04, Kobe and Shaq beef or Not. That was on GP, not Kobe and Shaq.

[FatComputerNerd]

There are not 13 pointguards who were better than Payton.

Or is this for guards in general?

[rodman91]

Iverson.
He has better career stats.
He won MVP.
He carried his team better with lesser support.

Also Iverson has
6th most ppg in season history
2nd most ppg in playoffs history
3rd most scoring titles.
most stealing titles in history.

Career stats
Iverson : 26.7 ppg 3.7 rpg 6.2 apg 2.2 spg
Payton: 16.3 ppg 3.9 rpg 6.7 apg 1.8 spg

As career peak season
Iverson: 33.0 ppg 7.4 rpg 3.2 rpg
Payton: 24.2 ppg 8.9 apg 6.5 rpg

Despite Payton's amazing defensive pressure, Iverson has edge.

[Soothing Layup]

Allen Iverson was a top 5 offensive player being only 1 of 3 players to average over 30 ppg during their lifetime in the playoffs. (MJ and Wilt are the other two.)

Also, his MVP also helps a lot. Gary was a great great player don't get me wrong, but he wasn't on Iversons level. Simple as that.

[Big164]

Iverson was the guy who crossed Jordan. Scoring-wise he came closer to jordans career ppg than anyone else including Kobe.

It's unfortunate that his place on this list is a function of the lackluster teams he played for. He never even had a detlef let alone a kemp or a shaq to carry him to the promise land.

I don't see Payton or even Kobe carrying dikembe and snow to an NBA finals.

[Big164]

Iverson.


Career stats
Iverson : 26.7 ppg 3.7 rpg 6.2 apg 2.2 spg
Payton: 16.3 ppg 3.9 rpg 6.7 apg 1.8 spg


This really says it all. Iverson and Payton are pretty much even in rebounds assists and steals but ai is a full 10 points ahead in scoring.

[Pushxx]

Payton is one of my top 5 favorite players ever, but he was not better than Iverson.

My vote: Allen Iverson

[RRR3]

This really says it all. Iverson and Payton are pretty much even in rebounds assists and steals but ai is a full 10 points ahead in scoring.
Those numbers really don't tell the whole story. I am not saying GP>AI or AI>GP (I don't have a vote in this anways), but it's just worth remembering.

[JohnnySic]

Tough choice, very tough, but its Iverson.

AI was a first-tier superstar who could carry a team. GP was.......really good, but not quite that.

[OmniStrife]

Iverson.

[NuggetsFan]

Few things

- Iverson has 3x first team All-NBA, Payton has x1.

- Payton has averaged 20+ 7 times. Iverson averaged 26+ 10 times in his career. Payton's career high is like .7 off Iverson's 4th lowest, 2nd if you disregard the Piston\Grizz situations. Sure Payton was more efficient but he never got to the line alot so the gap isn't as massive as you'd think. When Payton hit 24 a game he was taking 20 shots. Iverson was hitting 26 a game on 19 shots in Denver. Iverson also lacked offensive options next to him alot of the time. Iverson was literally like 10+ more points than Payton in there peak playoff runs. He has a massive advantage as a scorer.

- Payton is pretty much as elite as you can get defensively. Iverson is an elite scorer. One has an MVP the other a DPOTY. I'd rather the MVP. Payton's finished top 5 in MVP voting 1x, Iverson 3x. While the gap is pretty big defensively Iverson did force turnovers, albeit gambling alot getting 2+ steals a game still has some impact.

- Payton was the better passer, Iverson was still capable of getting others involved. His ability to penetrate and break down the D isn't exactly being a "floor general" but still effective non the less.

I'll go with Iverson. Not as complete and harder to build around but one of the best scorers of All-Time while being capable in other area's as well as having arguably a better resume. Has a better peak IMO too. I don't really factor in winning a ring while playing 20 minutes a game in comparisons like this either.

Iverson was a 30\7\3 player that was elite at playing the lanes while Payton was more of a 20\8\5 kinda guy with elite defense. Iverson just impacts the game more imo.

[WillC]

Gary Payton was a great player but I always felt he was a second banana type of player.

Iverson, meanwhile, could lead a team and carry them on his back to the Finals. Imagine if Iverson had someone like Kemp on his team?

It's extremely close but I'm going with Allen Iverson in this vote.

[RobertdeMeijer]

Just some interesting statistics:

Gary Payton's average of seven best SPM seasons: 5.58
Allen Iverson's average of seven best SPM seasons: 5.70

Gary Paytons average of seven best Win Shares seasons: 12.27
Allen Iverson's average of seven best Win Shares seasons: 9.77

Gary Paytons total Playoff win shares: 11.1
Allen Iverson's total playoff win shares: 7.3

[ThaSwagg3r]

My vote goes to Gary Payton. I thought the debate for #14 was going to be Drexler vs. Iverson, not Iverson vs. Payton. Anyways the posters in the first page already explained their argument for Glove and I can't really add anything else to it.

[Clippersfan86]

Gary Payton no question. Why? He was a 20 ppg+ scorer for 7 seasons ON TOP of being the best perimeter defender in NBA history (yes better than Rodman). Payton's defense was astounding. PG's never defended like that before. They are definitely on the same tier... but give me The Glove.

[andgar923]

Payton.

[Miller for 3]

I would go with Payton. Iverson is the better fit to carry a team of scrubs, but Payton is the preferred PG if you are building a championship caliber team. Everyone knows about his defense, but I wanted to praise his post game. Besides Magic, I don't think any PG had the post game of GP. Payton would just overpower guys who were bigger than him and get a nice 10 foot fadeaway off. After Kemp fell off the map he had some pretty crazy statistical seasons leading the Sonics as well

[rodman91]

I didn't defend KJ when this thing was going on (was busy), and he didn't even make Top 25 guards. There went 1 very underrated player just because he didn't have anyone showing how underrated he was. He should be Top 15-20

But I will defend Gary Payton, another very underrated player. But not in this thread, it is completely unnecessary because this is not even close. Even KJ belongs ahead of Iverson All-Time. Iverson is not even close to Payton and this thread is a waste.

See you guys next round. Just looking for and will give fair/logical arguments

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/thateddielongshanksp1.gif

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Gary Payton

[Kensta]

The Glove

[Papaya Petee]

Allen Iverson

[KGMN]

Gary Payton

[LBJFTW]

Payton, and it's not even close. J/K, Payton by a hair.

[Clippersfan86]

Iverson was an amazing scorer and for his size just amazing PERIOD. That being said Payton had such a dominant impact on BOTH ends of the floor. Not to mention he was a better passer and equal rebounder. His post game was excellent and he was more efficient.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not sure payton was a better passer than ai. Just averaged more assists. They are not at all the same. Anyway...id say iverson

[Lebowsky]

Gary Payton

[sipitri]

Allen Iverson. He's criminally underrated over here.

[Kblaze8855]

That was among the most predictable responses ever. The only reason i didnt point it out to begin with is to see if someone actually would say it. And you throw in the emoticon too? You have been around too long to be on some rookie shit like that.

[NugzHeat3]

First of all, I'd just like to say it's a travesty Iverson got in over Gervin.

GP should win this comparison fairly easily although I'm sure some people with delusions of grandeur will/have already vote(d) for AI.

I disagree that Payton wasn't a better passer. I've always differentiated between passing and playmaking. Iverson was probably a better playmaker just by the virtue of the pressure he put on defense. I don't think any perimeter player in the early 00s put more pressure on defenses than AI.

Due to that, he was able to draw defenders towards him kick out to the open man and his teammates got a few offensive boards after his missed shot since he'd get surrounded when he got into the lane.

But Payton was a much better facilitator. He didn't need to dominate the ball to the same extent Iverson did; made good, smart plays and effective and precise passes. He was also much better at feeding the post which Iverson could never do since he couldn't see over the defense. GP actually combined his scoring and distributing very well. Fairly equal I would say. It's one of the reasons the Sonics remained a great offensive team after being broken apart in the late 90s.

Iverson would get a lot of bailout assists where he'd dribble into nowhere and pass to someone with the clock running out. That's not really an efficient play.

Defense is a blowout. GP could guard various positions because he had the size and was strong as a bull. He is probably an overrated defender because he was never DPoY worthy but I could say the same thing about AI's MVP. Iverson was often a liability at that end unless paired up with a PG who had the ability to guard SGs.

I can't see a situation where I'd take Iverson unless I'm on a team like the 2001 Sixers that heavily relied on Iverson's scoring and playmaking ability. But a team like the 2001 Sixers was never going to realistically contend. They were lucky as hell Zo and Hill got injured.

They were roughly the same team in 1999 and 2000 and got their ass handed to them by the Pacers. The only difference was the Mutombo trade and I'm pretty sure they had a better record before the trade than they did with him.

[Story Up]

Kblaze is an agenda poster, if you carefully analyze what he says: he essentially tries to suck off Jordan as much as possible.

The crap he writes about Kobe, Pippen, Miller, Ewing, Payton etc. over the years just seems like he tries to promote Jordan by belittling any player that stole his spotlight at one point. This same guy claimed Kobe wouldn't be top five player in 91'. I hate how he tries to make his opinion a universal fact; he's the most humbled poster with the greatest amount of arrogance all in one.

[NugzHeat3]

Kblaze is an agenda poster, if you carefully analyze what he says: he essentially tries to suck off Jordan as much as possible.

The crap he writes about Kobe, Pippen, Miller, Ewing, Payton etc. over the years just seems like he tries to promote Jordan by belittling any player that stole his spotlight at one point. This same guy claimed Kobe wouldn't be top five player in 91'. I hate how he tries to make his opinion a universal fact; he's the most humbled poster with the greatest amount of arrogance all in one.
Eh, you're reaching a bit. I haven't seen him post a lot but I don't see any type of agenda he's promoting.

Out of curiosity, what Kobe were you talking about? Prime or current. Current wouldn't be top 5 but prime definitely would.

[crosso√er]

Eh, you're reaching a bit. I haven't seen him post a lot but I don't see any type of agenda he's promoting.

Out of curiosity, what Kobe were you talking about? Prime or current. Current wouldn't be top 5 but prime definitely would.

Current Kobe isn't top five today...

[ThaSwagg3r]

Kblaze is an agenda poster, if you carefully analyze what he says: he essentially tries to suck off Jordan as much as possible.

The crap he writes about Kobe, Pippen, Miller, Ewing, Payton etc. over the years just seems like he tries to promote Jordan by belittling any player that stole his spotlight at one point. This same guy claimed Kobe wouldn't be top five player in 91'. I hate how he tries to make his opinion a universal fact; he's the most humbled poster with the greatest amount of arrogance all in one.
I don't think his goal is to promote Jordan. If anything I am pretty sure he likes LeBron more than Jordan. I do think that most of his posts are very biased and one-sided though. He never really gives both sides of the argument.....just one and it is his own.



Anyways I will be voting for Payton for a while. Payton should be over Kidd and Stockton as well. I think Payton will win this round.....as he should.

[colorz]

Allen Iverson

[Boston C's]

Ill vote payton here but its very close

[G.O.A.T]

^remember to BOLD your votes please

[Kblaze8855]

Im trying to sneakily support Jordan and tear down his opponents? Funny. Ive been told I hate and love Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, and Wade lately. Its not often I say anything about any of them. The last time I really talked about Jordan was probably:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142357

And I dont think anyone could take that to mean I think MJ deserves to be put up over everyone else and praised as if hes the only great player.

And really...guy thinks I hate Gary Payton and Kevin Johnson?

Who hates Kevin Johnson? Ever? anywhere?

Lot of people get emotional and cant separate thinking that an individual is overrating someone(say...Kevin Johnson when you put him over MVPs and guys who led teams to titles) and hating that person.

Because of it depending on the moment ive been told I hate Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Lebron, Wade, Payton, KJ, Melo, Penny, Reggie Miller, Ewing, Magic, David Robinson, and on and on and on. And at least 7 of those ive been told I love too much to be fair. Really...jauber or whatever claimed I was one of a bunch of wilt haters....when ive been defending wilt for 10 years.

I remember once a guy I dont think posts anymore reposted something I said about Wade not being gifted the 06 finals 10 or 20 times to some Kobe lovers arguing that Wade has it easy far as calls....and like 2 days later he said I was too big an idiot to respond to when I said Kobe is clutch regardless of some...random number he had.

I seem to swing wildly from brilliant to an idiot of epic proportions based entirely on what side im on at the moment. Funny how that works.

If I said what came to mind in the Pippen leading a 55 win team I bet id have been called both a Jordan lover and hater today alone....

[RRR3]

I don't think his goal is to promote Jordan. If anything I am pretty sure he likes LeBron more than Jordan. I do think that most of his posts are very biased and one-sided though. He never really gives both sides of the argument.....just one and it is his own.



Anyways I will be voting for Payton for a while. Payton should be over Kidd and Stockton as well. I think Payton will win this round.....as he should.
http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/35048/2901336910100112691S600x600Q85.jpg

[nycelt84]

Gary Payton

[Gotterdammerung]

So far, most of GOAT's threads were on-topic... :facepalm

Iverson didn't deserve to get ranked over Gervin, but of course, ISH is full of little kids who haven't watched the game long enough.

Iverson is a great player, one of the greatest offensive machines ever. But I'd pick Patyon for reasons many other posters already listed:

Ballhandling (passes were crisp, in the flow of offense. I refreshed my memory with a game from Bulls-Sonics finals in 1996 today on NBATV)
Post-up (pick apart a team's defense by abusing weak defender and find the open man)
Defense (both on & off the ball, any type of perimeter threat)
Play any style effectively (uptempo or slowdown, on or off the ball)
Rebounding (being taller and stronger)
Easier to build a championship-style team around


Iverson is the better playground player, and probably better one-on-one in a streetball game.

Gary Payton is the better NBA player. :bowdown:

NEXT!

[NugzHeat3]

This is really tough; Iverson is a more legendary name but Payton did more things for a team on the basketball court. Both were relatively small but Gary had that physicality to him very few small guards had. He was one of the absolute greatest point guard at going in the low post, bullying-up his man and getting the bucket. Iverson was obviously on a different tier, scoring wise. He was as creative as we've seen from a guard his size; and because of his size and the position he played, he had to be a demi-god in order to achieve everything he has on his resume.

I'm torn between this match-up; I actually had an easier time choosing Gervin over Iverson mostly because Iceman was simply better then Iverson at the one thing both players are known for. However, I don't think Gary can actually carry a team like Iverson could. He is a terrific 2nd option but I've never known Gary to take-over games like Isiah could. Both were ball-dominant guards and honestly; I wouldn't say Iverson was any worse of a passer then Gary. Despite being ranked 8th overall in career assists, Gary was never an eye-opening passer to me. It seemed like he racked up assists mostly because he controlled the ball so often. I don't think their assist numbers would have any discrepancy if Iverson didn't take more shots and was expected to scorer.

To me Iverson is a better scorer (clearly) and Payton was a far greater defensive presence. Now everything else I simply need to put in perspective for me to make a valid conclusion.

Success = A Draw, I wouldn't give anyone the edge. Iverson led his team to the championship; Payton had a great team around him every-time he went deep in the playoffs. Him winning a title in 06' doesn't hold much water to me, since he wasn't a focal point to that championship squad.

Impact = A Draw, I think Iverson being a better scorer is neutralized by Gary's prolific defensive prowess, scoring efficiency & being better at protecting the ball. Gary also naturally (due to his position) had more assists per game and even had the edge in the rebounding department. Both played the passing lanes really well but Payton could actually dominate an opposing guard defensively (man to man, help, low-post, passing lanes etc.). Iverson could not; he often gambled defensively and was no where near as ferocious.

Defense = Payton, by a landslide.

Personal Accolades = A Draw.

Iverson's case: MVP, ROTY, 4 scoring titles, 1 All-Star & 1 All-NBA
Payton's case: DPOTY & 9 more All-Defensive teams.

Uhm, Iverson clearly demonstrated his superiority by placing the ball in the basket. He was rewarded four times and even won the MVP. Payton on the other hand, dominated at something he was known for (aka The Glove); defense. In my opinion, his legacy should live longer then Iverson's; but it won't because a casual fan doesn't care about defense or fundamentals, they tend to give love to those players who were really spectacular at one particular thing (Iverson was also flashier & more exciting to watch due to his creativity & crossovers). His defensive accolades exceed Iverson's scoring accomplishments, IMHO. AI was a ball-dominant guard who didn't have an overly impressive FG%, TS%, PPS etc. He racked up points and will always be known as one of the greatest scoring guards of All-Time. Payton quite possibly is the greatest defensive guard of All-Time; perhaps that's a stretch, but he is certainly higher on his respective ladder then Allen Iverson is on his. There's only about four/five guards that have ever won the illustrious DPOTY award; how many times has a guard collected the scoring title?

In conclusion, I pick Gary Payton. I believe he would make my team better more times then Iverson would. He brings a little of everything to the table; efficient scorer, capable scorer, great rebounder (due to his physicality), good passer, terrific ball-handler, legendary defender and most importantly fierce competitor. Their resumes are almost identical; Iverson might have slightly more personal accolades but that's only because he excelled at something that put him in an ideal position to win awards that media tends to favor. However, Gary's resume is just as legendary and he kept his team's more relevant for longer. Surely Iverson has had more highlight reel moments and will be remembered for his clutch performances; but that's only because people have a selective memory and will never really reminiscence on all the times he was a detriment to team success.

Payton is my choice, yep, it took a bit of convincing on my part.
It's definitely close.
I don't know why it shouldn't.

Payton played a crucial role on that squad and his play is overlooked because of the conspiracy theories related to the finals. He was instrumental in the ECF since his defense limited Billups really well.

He also hit the GW jumper in game 3 of the finals and a unreal two handed scoop shot banked high off the glass in OT of game 5. He did a decent job on Devin Harris as well.

Iverson, meanwhile, showed an unwillingness to adjust his game, come off the bench and accept a smaller role which is why nobody offered him a contract. How's this not something in Payton's favor?

[D.J.]

Take away scoring, Payton was a better ball handler, much better defender, better passer, made smarter decisions with the basketball, and led the Sonics to multiple 60+ win seasons. With Seattle, they made the Finals once and the WCF on one other occasion. My vote is for the Glove.

[NuggetsFan]

Ballhandling (passes were crisp, in the flow of offense. I refreshed my memory with a game from Bulls-Sonics finals in 1996 today on NBATV)

Play any style effectively (uptempo or slowdown, on or off the ball)



I'd say Iverson was the better ballhandler. Alot more riskier witch lead to more TO's but overall skill wise, think Iverson's the choice.

Iverson could play in any offensive system as well :confusedshrug:



Oh please :oldlol:

Im not sure iverson was a better scorer than gp. Just averaged more shots. They are not at all the same.

Like I said earlier, GP's career high in scoring(24) he took 20 shots. Iverson took 19 in Denver and still hit 26. Payton doesn't have a massive edge in 3 point shooting and doesn't get to the line alot and hit them at a high rate. Iverson just FAR better at creating his own offense, witch is evident by there massive difference in scoring accomplishments.

[Miller for 3]

Take away scoring, Payton was a better ball handler, much better defender, better passer, made smarter decisions with the basketball, and led the Sonics to multiple 60+ win seasons. With Seattle, they made the Finals once and the WCF on one other occasion. My vote is for the Glove.

:wtf: :facepalm

[D.J.]

:wtf: :facepalm


You serious? :eek: Payton averaged under 3 turnovers per game in all but two seasons. Iverson from his rookie season until 2007-08 never averaged under 3 and he had several over 4.

[NuggetsFan]

You serious? :eek: Payton averaged under 3 turnovers per game in all but two seasons. Iverson from his rookie season until 2007-08 never averaged under 3 and he had several over 4.

So? Why are you trying to put numbers on something like ball handling? Jose Calderon averages like what 1.7 turn overs or something crazy like that, compared to Chris Paul's 2+ .. does that make him a better ball handler? No.

Payton was just smarter with the ball and wasn't as reckless as A.I thus less turnovers.

[D.J.]

Payton's turnovers per game from 1990-91 until 2004-05
2.2
2.1
1.8
2.1
2.5
3.2
2.6
2.8
3.1
2.7
2.6
2.5
2.3
1.8
1.9

^^^ And that's while regularly playing 40 MPG or near it.


Iverson's turnovers per game from 1996-97 until 2007-08
4.4
3.1
3.5
3.3
3.3
4.0
3.5
4.4
4.6
3.4
4.1
3.0


:facepalm at Iverson being the better ball handler.

[NuggetsFan]

Payton's turnovers per game from 1990-91 until 2004-05
2.2
2.1
1.8
2.1
2.5
3.2
2.6
2.8
3.1
2.7
2.6
2.5
2.3
1.8
1.9

^^^ And that's while regularly playing 40 MPG or near it.


Iverson's turnovers per game from 1996-97 until 2007-08
4.4
3.1
3.5
3.3
3.3
4.0
3.5
4.4
4.6
3.4
4.1
3.0


:facepalm at Iverson being the better ball handler.

:oldlol: at you for using a statistic for ball handling

[Miller for 3]

Dude it not about turnovers (which can come from bad passes as well). AI could just do things with the ball that Payton couldn't. And i voted for Payton, but I think it was pretty clear who had the better handles of the two

[NugzHeat3]

You serious? :eek: Payton averaged under 3 turnovers per game in all but two seasons. Iverson from his rookie season until 2007-08 never averaged under 3 and he had several over 4.

That's not really telling me much. Iverson's handle was lethal and allowed him to create a lot of space between him and his defender.

Iverson also dominated the ball more than Payton did so that's one thing that has to be considered regarding their turnovers.

Iverson was also surrounded by weak finishers who didn't exactly have good hands so if they fumble a pass, Iverson is going to be credited with the turnover. A minor thing but it adds up over the course of the season.

Iverson also drew a lot of offensive fouls (clearing with his off hand, charging) and certainly to a greater extent than Payton did. Those things are considered turnovers and they don't exactly pertain to his ball handling.

[D.J.]

So? Why are you trying to put numbers on something like ball handling? Jose Calderon averages like what 1.7 turn overs or something crazy like that, compared to Chris Paul's 2+ .. does that make him a better ball handler? No.


Calderon and Paul don't have the ball in their hands the same amount. For the bulk of Calderon's time in Toronto, Bosh was playing there. Bosh had the ball a lot.



Payton was just smarter with the ball and wasn't as reckless as A.I thus less turnovers.


Hence being a better ball handler.

[DPittman]

:banana:
Allen Iverson

[ThaSwagg3r]

Hence being a better ball handler.
Who was the better ball-handler to you, Clyde Drexler or Allen Iverson?

[rodman91]

Since when turnovers mean ball handling ability?

Iverson's ball handling skills were one of the best ever. Anybody watch their game style know the reason why Iverson had higher turnovers.

[NuggetsFan]

Calderon and Paul don't have the ball in their hands the same amount. For the bulk of Calderon's time in Toronto, Bosh was playing there. Bosh had the ball a lot.





Hence being a better ball handler.

Calderon was still handling the ball alot that season. Averaged like 8.3 dimes with 1.5 turnovers. Is he a better ball handler than Dwayne Wade, or LeBron James? Allen Iverson as well?. No he's not. He just doesn't make as riskier plays as them. Iverson was like a one man wrecking ball, his turnovers could be from a bad pass, a drawn charge, getting stuck in the corner after a drive etc.

Turnovers = ball skills is one of the most absurd things I've seen. That's more of a indicator of how smart a player is and how under control he plays.

[Ghettobird]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0804/nba.players.onthe.spot/images/iverson.jpg

Allen Iverson

so glad i got to see him during his time in denver

[KareemCambell]

Allen Iverson

so glad i got to see him during his time in denver


me too, i never got to see him live in his prime but i did catch a few of his last season games:bowdown:
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/01/14/alg_76ers_iverson.jpg

Allen "the answer" Iverson

[SonOfMattGeiger]

Allen Iverson and it's sad that people have to even question this. AI is EASILY a top 14 guard all time.

gimme iverson over wade, drexler, nash, stockton too. yeah, come at me bro.

[SuperPippen]

I don't think this one is nearly as tough as some are making it out to be.

As legendary of a baller as we came to perceive Iverson as (and he was), Payton was just the better all-around player.

He was the better rebounder, the better playmaker, he was smarter about himself and about the game, he had more tools to work with offensively and Iverson wasn't even in his ballpark defensively.

Both had a mean-streak, but I think Payton had more upside.

I really don't see much of a justifiable argument for Iverson over GP.

It wouldn't be a stretch to argue that Iverson was more dominant at his peak than Payton was at his, but even if your heart might tell you to take Iverson, your brain HAS to be telling you to to pick Gary Payton, arguably the best two-way point guard ever.

[RRR3]

Allen Iverson and it's sad that people have to even question this. AI is EASILY a top 14 guard all time.

gimme iverson over wade, drexler, nash, stockton too. yeah, come at me bro.
Career wise? Maybe for now. Wade will pass him shortly, if he hasn't already.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'd say Iverson was the better ballhandler.
No. He was fancier with the ball, and made wicked crossovers, but ball handling consists far more than that.

Ball-handling is taking care of the offense. Taking care of other players, knowing when to feed the big man for running down the floor, who needs the ball after a few minutes, etc.

Ball-handling consists of much more than And 1 plays, but don't let that insight stop you from watching Sportscenter highlights. :hammerhead:


Alot more riskier witch lead to more TO's but overall skill wise, think Iverson's the choice.
Turnovers moot your assertion. :confusedshrug:


Iverson could play in any offensive system as well :confusedshrug:
Assertion that has zero evidence to back it up. Homer logic again. Just because he played for your team a couple years doesn't mean you have to pick him. :confusedshrug:

As for your nonsense about scoring - he was the better scorer because he was quicker to the hoop, and almost unguardable off the dribble. Sure.

However, his shot selection was spotty and his consistency was not great. Hence the high volume of shots as opposed to Payton's.

Payton's low-post offense is one reason I think he had more success than Iverson in the playoffs. :no:

[NugzHeat3]

No. He was fancier with the ball, and made wicked crossovers, but ball handling consists far more than that.

Ball-handling is taking care of the offense. Taking care of other players, knowing when to feed the big man for running down the floor, who needs the ball after a few minutes, etc.

Ball-handling consists of much more than And 1 plays, but don't let that insight stop you from watching Sportscenter highlights. :hammerhead:


Turnovers moot your assertion. :confusedshrug:


Assertion that has zero evidence to back it up. Homer logic again. Just because he played for your team a couple years doesn't mean you have to pick him. :confusedshrug:

As for your nonsense about scoring - he was the better scorer because he was quicker to the hoop, and almost unguardable off the dribble. Sure.

However, his shot selection was spotty and his consistency was not great. Hence the high volume of shots as opposed to Payton's.

Payton's low-post offense is one reason I think he had more success than Iverson in the playoffs. :no:
This is news to me because I've never heard those things associated with ball handling.

[NuggetsFan]

Assertion that has zero evidence to back it up.

Played in a run and gun system in Denver. Played off the ball with Larry Brown, as an off guard. He could play in the half court, transition. Didn't think you needed evidence with that.

I don't really care, you can chose Payton. It's not like Iverson's easily better or anything like that just my opinion.

Also turnovers = ball handling abilities is beyond stupid. Can be debunked 100x. Seriously Jose Calderon would be the one of the best ball handlers of All-Time going by that logic. It's called just not playing risky, witch can be a negative on your team sometimes. Plus turnovers range from multiple things, not just your ability to handle the rock. It's like your ignoring players abilities to break down a D, beat his man, handle it in transition because of turnovers.

[Nelson14]

Iverson takes this one for me, it's very very close though

[Gotterdammerung]

This is news to me because I've never heard those things associated with ball handling.

That explains why you refuse to accept that turnovers is a direct correlation to ball-handling. :oldlol:

A low-post center like Olajuwon holds the ball above his head before he dribbles. Guys can't get at it.

Other bigs like David Robinson keep them low for some reason. Smaller defenders like Malone swipe at the ball and knock it loose.

Olajuwon is therefore the better ball-handler than Robinson. You had to guard him with bigger guys, who were slower. Thus the Rockets were more successful in the playoffs than the Spurs before Duncan came along.

Now, Iverson will take more chances with the ball than Payton because his game is predicated on getting by his defender with crossovers and quick moves to the hoop. He was more skilled with the ball - no question.

The crux is simple: dribble skills isn't the entirety of ball-handling.

Bottom line: the game is predicated on successful possessions. Turnovers hurt the team more than you are ready to admit. :confusedshrug:

[Gotterdammerung]

Played in a run and gun system in Denver. Played off the ball with Larry Brown, as an off guard. He could play in the half court, transition. Didn't think you needed evidence with that.
The Nuggets were first round victims both years.

Sorry that's not enough evidence. Iverson could flourish in both offenses, and I thank you for that.

But Payton was better at that, and had more success.


Also turnovers = ball handling abilities is beyond stupid. Can be debunked 100x. Seriously Jose Calderon would be the one of the best ball handlers of All-Time going by that logic. It's called just not playing risky, witch can be a negative on your team sometimes. Plus turnovers range from multiple things, not just your ability to handle the rock. It's like your ignoring players abilities to break down a D, beat his man, handle it in transition because of turnovers.
I agree.

Ball handling is part of turnovers, not the entirety of turnovers - but the player who instigates the pass to the unwitting recipient gets credited with the turnover. :no:

[NugzHeat3]

That explains why you refuse to accept that turnovers is a direct correlation to ball-handling. :oldlol:

A low-post center like Olajuwon holds the ball above his head before he dribbles. Guys can't get at it.

Other bigs like David Robinson keep them low for some reason. Smaller defenders like Malone swipe at the ball and knock it loose.

Olajuwon is therefore the better ball-handler than Robinson. You had to guard him with bigger guys, who were slower. Thus the Rockets were more successful in the playoffs than the Spurs before Duncan came along.

Now, Iverson will take more chances with the ball than Payton because his game is predicated on getting by his defender with crossovers and quick moves to the hoop. He was more skilled with the ball - no question.

The crux is simple: dribble skills isn't the entirety of ball-handling.

Bottom line: the game is predicated on successful possessions. Turnovers hurt the team more than you are ready to admit. :confusedshrug:
The stuff you listed, "Taking care of other players, knowing when to feed the big man for running down the floor, who needs the ball after a few minutes, etc." has more to do with running an offense and facilitating than ball handling skills.

Different definitions I guess. I could never relate feeding players in transition with ball handling.

Turnovers aren't always caused by poor ball handling, either. An offensive foul or a bad pass isn't always indicative of poor ball handling. There are exceptions because if a charge is called on Clyde Drexler, I could relate that to his ball handling since he dribbled with his head down.

To me, ball handling isn't just fancy in between the legs dribbling skills. Knowing to use your off-hand, protecting the ball from guys reaching in, changing direction, being deceptive all comes to consideration.

But knowing your definition, I can see why you think Payton was better in this regard.

[magnax1]

The things that each one is better at are obvious. Payton is a far better defender, and AI was a far better offensive player.
Offensively, Payton has a lot of the same deficiencies as AI did, but wasn't comparable to AI in most of his best facets. Payton, just like AI, was very inefficient, had poor shot selection, and took up a lot of possessions compared to his offensive output. Possibly more so then Iverson.
Iverson definitely has a large advantage in scoring output. His ability to work off the ball also probably makes him more useful in more situations, where Payton was kind of useless when he didn't have the ball on offense. Also Iverson garnered much much more defensive attention, and the way he was constantly on the move caused a lot of issues for defenses.
Defensively, there was also a huge difference that goes to Payton. Everything Iverson could do, Payton did and did better. However to say he was one of only a few guards to ever win the Defensive player of the year, makes him sound better then he was. Especially since I don't really think he was really deserving over Mutumbo or Pippen, and his defensive peak doesn't really matchup with his statistical peak.
That also brings up another interesting subject. That neither of them really peaked out during their best statistical seasons. Iversons best statistical season, 06, was probably not as good as 01 when he played Shooting guard and worked alot off the ball. He also was really bad defensively by 06, where in 01 I think he at least made a positive defensive impact, despite his flaws.
Payton probably peaked out in 96 or 97 where he was much better defensively. Also, the only real difference between 97 and 00 in terms of offensive impact was that he wasn't as efficient in 00 (partially shot selection, and partly a larger offensive load) and played extra minutes.
Anyway, it's difficult to compare the impact of offensive and defensive players head to head. Just like there really isn't any way to fairly compare an all offense guy like Dirk to an all defense guys like Ben Wallace, there really isn't a fair way to compare AI to Payton. I do remember thinking AI was better in his peak. He was a worthy MVP recipient to me, where I don't think there was ever a season where Payton was an MVP caliber player to me, and the only season I think he might've been a top 5 player was the year when Robinson was injured.
Iverson

[Gotterdammerung]

Another reason to go with the Glove over the Answer: he takes less away from the table. :no:

A better way to compare the two great players, but differently dominant, is to place them on equally matched title winning teams and compare them: who would win?

[SonOfMattGeiger]

Career wise? Maybe for now. Wade will pass him shortly, if he hasn't already.

yes, career wise. if we were talking skill wise/peak wise, i STILL think AI takes it over wade. but, you are correct when saying that wade will soon pass AI (if he hasn't thus far). but i don't think you can call anyone crazy regardless of which they pick at this point, wade or AI. very good arguments for both. :cheers:

[G-train]

If you want to talk basketball skills in terms of what is inside one player, then AI is better.

If you want to talk basketball skills in terms of this being a 5 on 5 game played on both ends the answer is Payton.

The numbers are there for AI. He is unquestionably one of the most talented scorers ever.

But Payton played the game of basketball better, a game that is 5 on 5 at both ends.

I am bias though. Iverson was everything that was wrong with the NBA in term of how to play IMO. Jordan started it with the all about me attitude, the 'jordan and Jordanaires' stuff, blah blah. Iverson took that, then threw it out of balance with inefficiency and poor defence and leadership. He had the talent to score, but he didnt have the IQ to know that teams win.
In other words I found him to be an immature, selfish basketball player with enough talent to still score 30ppg.
Payton I found to be a mature, high IQ, unselfish, win at all costs player.

I expect to be flamed by all the 20-30 year old posters who are casual fans and have had cornrows for the last decade in memory of their hero.

[iamgine]

Next is Payton vs Nash then? Another polar opposite :oldlol:

Nash is getting my vote though.

[magnax1]

People are acting like Payton was a really good team mate, and that's just really not true. Most of his coaches hated him, and George Karl constantly tried to get him traded for guys like Mookie Blaylock.

[G-train]

People are acting like Payton was a really good team mate, and that's just really not true. Most of his coaches hated him, and George Karl constantly tried to get him traded for guys like Mookie Blaylock.

George Karl was a bigger loudmouth and hated by more people than Payton.
Payton was a brash personality, but he played team bball. You dont have to be well like to play bball properly.

[G-train]

I dont remember Karl complaining either when the Bucks acquired Payton for Ray.

[G-train]

Allen Iverson and it's sad that people have to even question this. AI is EASILY a top 14 guard all time.

gimme iverson over wade, drexler, nash, stockton too. yeah, come at me bro.

Ironic considering the 76ers tried to trade AI for Geiger in 2000 but it fell through.

[1987_Lakers]

Gary Payton

Allen Iverson is probably the last superstar I would want on my team, attitude problems, too ball dominant, inefficient, & doesn't have a natural position. Iverson is the better scorer, but Payton's GOAT perimeter defense evens that out & Payton is better at every other aspect of the game.

[SonOfMattGeiger]

Ironic considering the 76ers tried to trade AI for Geiger in 2000 but it fell through.

also very ironic considering Geiger played for the sixers starting the first game in the 1999 season. thus, they were teammates well before 2000. thats like the lakers trading kobe for lamar. that just doesn't add up to me. not sure where u were trying to go with that.

[G-train]

also very ironic considering Geiger played for the sixers starting the first game in the 1999 season. thus, they were teammates well before 2000. thats like the lakers trading kobe for lamar. that just doesn't add up to me. not sure where u were trying to go with that.

I wrote 'for' not 'with' by accident.

Either way they agreed to trade him and it fell through.

[Rose]

The last 2.5 pages, have been pretty informative. I was on the rocks somewhat, but overall, I'm going to go with Glove.

[magnax1]

George Karl was a bigger loudmouth and hated by more people than Payton.
Payton was a brash personality, but he played team bball. You dont have to be well like to play bball properly.
I don't really agree. He definitely didn't play the most team oriented game on offense. He was really ball dominant for a guy who only averaged 20ish ppg on low efficiency.
I don't know about Karl being hated by more people then Payton either. He seemed to get along with other stars that other coaches struggled to get along with. Carmelo and AI for example. And Phil Jackson had similar complaints about getting Payton to play within the offense, though Phil tends to exaggerate.

[G-train]

Karl was a different man at Denver.

[el gringos]

Karl was no different in Denver- he sabatoged the best players, Carmelo in particular. Carmelo was to good a businessman to complain about the guy who paid him a hundred million dollars (kroenke) or the guy who put himself keeping his job as long as possible and always setting up a scapegoat over trying to win by using his best players in the best spots for them to succeed (karl). George Karl is a scumbag, Carmelo "got along" with Karl just about as well as Jr smith or billups did. Karl will do anything to keep coaching and keep himself looking good, even at the expense of trying to win
--------
Anyone who chooses Iverson over payton does not understand basketball past stats or maybe video games

[RobertdeMeijer]

To me it's fairly close.

Both players seem to get worse the longer I look at them. Iverson really wasn't that good for his teams or the offense, gameplay-wise.
I feel the same about Payton, social-wise. His ego hurt his teams.

I'm giving Gary Payton my vote because he has something that worth being remembered for: being the best perimeter defender of all time.

[Kblaze8855]

Forget 2001 when he actually won....

Iverson got more first place MVP votes in 1999(5) than Gary Payton got in his entire career(4).

But of course we do the forgetting what people actually thought at the time thing around here. Which is probably why relentless arguing and propping him up to people who barely remember the 90s got GP ranked over Ewing in the ISh list when 4 people on the planet would have said he was better than Ewing at the time. Or even in the late 90s...that he was better than Ewing was a few years earlier. But we disregard how good players actually were...what the world thought...all that. And decide in retrospect to bump a guy or two up based on emotional attachment.

Kinda makes me wonder if in 10-15 years people will be saying Deron Williams was miles ahead of Wade around now ignoring that next to nobody would have said so at the time.

Dont know what it is about being years in the past that gives people a much clearer view than people had at the time. Happens time and time again.

Like people now acting like the great debate in the 80s/early 90s was Karl vs Barkley...when nobody had Karl as Barkleys equal till after he fell off then started calling him the best 4 ever in the late 90s when Barkley was a shadow of himself. People were debating if Barkley was the best...player...in the game.

But 20 years later...Karl vs Barkley was always a hot topic...

I really wish I could get a look at ISH of 2030. I bet there will be a Shaq vs Dwight topic people take serious as if anyone now who got to watch them both would bother asking.

[NuggetsFan]

:facepalm

While there have been many stupid posts in this thread, this one takes the grand prize. Did I just hear someone who shot 47% in his prime (94-03) and was not TO prone (had a high Ast:TO ratio for a PG) called inefficient? Wow. Didn't know 47% had suddenly become inefficient for a guard not to mention having a high Ast:TO ratio (as high as Kidd's prime-wise) is also bad.
Amazing. And AI is in this discussion.

Not calling Payton inefficient but his career FG% is a little deceiving. He never got to the line alot and when he did he never shot that great of a percentage. Wasn't a great 3 point shooter. Career average of 16.3 points a game, while having a career average of 14 FGA. Compare that to somebody like Iverson who shot 42% for his career but averaged 26.7 on 21.8 shot attempts.

Wouldn't call him inefficient but wouldn't use that as an argument for him over A.I, atleast in the scoring department because not really a major advantage once you look past raw FG%. A|T ratio obviously is very much true.

[G-train]

Most of Iverson's MVP votes are BS. Its just whoever the media wanna hype, and many had a love affair with AI.

[iamgine]

Forget 2001 when he actually won....

Iverson got more first place MVP votes in 1999(5) than Gary Payton got in his entire career(4).

But of course we do the forgetting what people actually thought at the time thing around here. Which is probably why relentless arguing and propping him up to people who barely remember the 90s got GP ranked over Ewing in the ISh list when 4 people on the planet would have said he was better than Ewing at the time. Or even in the late 90s...that he was better than Ewing was a few years earlier. But we disregard how good players actually were...what the world thought...all that. And decide in retrospect to bump a guy or two up based on emotional attachment.

Kinda makes me wonder if in 10-15 years people will be saying Deron Williams was miles ahead of Wade around now ignoring that next to nobody would have said so at the time.

Dont know what it is about being years in the past that gives people a much clearer view than people had at the time. Happens time and time again.

Like people now acting like the great debate in the 80s/early 90s was Karl vs Barkley...when nobody had Karl as Barkleys equal till after he fell off then started calling him the best 4 ever in the late 90s when Barkley was a shadow of himself. People were debating if Barkley was the best...player...in the game.

But 20 years later...Karl vs Barkley was always a hot topic...

I really wish I could get a look at ISH of 2030. I bet there will be a Shaq vs Dwight topic people take serious as if anyone now who got to watch them both would bother asking.
That's natural though. People who didn't get the chance to watch or live in that moment would use what's available, which is stats, accomplishments and hearsay.

[Kblaze8855]

People?

"People" dont think AI was overrated now. 19 year old fans on the internet do. The kinds of people who post Derrick Roses field goal percentage daily, say they dont see what was special about Tmac in Orlando because he needed 23 shots to score 30 points, and talk up Adrian Dantley(who they dont even remember) as some kind of god.

AI just got caught up in the wave of mostly know nothings on the internet plugging numbers into a formula to determine who is great and who isnt.

There are people who think AI made the 01 7ers...worse...because of his true shooting percentages...when any basketball person(including his basketball lifer coach with 50 years in the game) would tell them 300 reasons why that isnt the case.

People dont care about that garbage any more than they used to. People...arent aware of it.

Children and numbers blinded adults on the internet are aware of it.

Nothing more than that.

Anyone who greatly changes their opinion on a player from 15 years ago...a player they actually got to see...because of the kinds of empty numbers thrown out all over these days...is not worth the effort it would take to read them explain why.

[sundizz]

Payton.

[Kblaze8855]

That's natural though. People who didn't get the chance to watch or live in that moment would use what's available, which is stats, accomplishments and hearsay.

Perhaps im just older than I feel at times. The 90s doesnt feel long enough ago to need anything but memory. Not like we are talking about 1961 when even the people alive at the time...if you were not on the road with the team...didnt get to see many games.

This is like...1998....2001...2002?

I see so many people say they read these topics...then decide who is better...its almostl ike..who are we asking? And why?

Someone needs to read other peoples opinion to decide on Gary Payton vs AI? And we are using those...someones...to rank them? Why ask someone who needs to ask someone else? Like I said..this isnt a matter of people from the 60s.

How long ago was 1999?

[iamgine]

Perhaps im just older than I feel at times. The 90s doesnt feel long enough ago to need anything but memory. Not like we are talking about 1961 when even the people alive at the time...if you were not on the road with the team...didnt get to see many games.

This is like...1998....2001...2002?

I see so many people say they read these topics...then decide who is better...its almostl ike..who are we asking? And why?

Someone needs to read other peoples opinion to decide on Gary Payton vs AI? And we are using those...someones...to rank them? Why ask someone who needs to ask someone else? Like I said..this isnt a matter of people from the 60s.

How long ago was 1999?
How long ago doesn't really matter. Most people don't watch basketball religiously. Even right now, how many of us are catching those stars who aren't on national TV very often? LaMarcus Aldridge? Kevin Love?

Even for these stars people would use stats, accomplishments and hearsay.

[Kblaze8855]

I would kinda like to see how one justifies Gary Payton over AI but votes Reggie Miller over Dennis Johnson...who only did...everything...EVERYTHING...better...aside from jumpers.

Dennis better at every aspect of defense....and better at every aspect of offense jumpers aside. EVery skill one could want out of a basketball player..aside from flicking ones wrist to shoot a jumper...DJ is better than Reggie. But Reggie wins. Cant even mention as a reason since DJ won 3 rings one of them as a finals MVP and a flat out key part of the other 2...and DJ was an all nba first teamer...and Reggie was 3rd team...barely.

But Reggie beats DJ because people remember 6 famous jumpers. Reeeeeeeeally dont see how that happened.

[Kblaze8855]

KBlaze by this logic it's not even possible for a player to be overrated or underrated. A player is just rated exactly what people think of him at the time lol? Does the phrase overrated and underrated just not exist in your dictionary?

People can be either. I just find it funny when virtually the entire world thinks one thing then people later act like it isnt true and isnt even close...as if they have a better look at a world they cant even see and often dont remember.


Iverson was overrated in his prime because of his flash and media attention and hype.

ANd now that is all gone, we are not overrating him anymore .It's that simple

Id say its more because....hes gone....and most talking about him dont even seem to remember him well. Which is amazing to me because hes probably like...35.

People arent learning more about him or understanding him better the less they get to see.

And anyone impressionable enough to be blinded by the things you claim made AI highly rated? Them being on your side now isnt a good thing....

How can you pretty much call people idiots then consider yourself right when you think they are on your side?

Id try to distance my opinions from those of anyone I thought pretty much plucked them from the media.

[Kblaze8855]

How long ago doesn't really matter. Most people don't watch basketball religiously. Even right now, how many of us are catching those stars who aren't on national TV very often? LaMarcus Aldridge? Kevin Love?

Even for these stars people would use stats, accomplishments and hearsay.

I am the kind of person who watches everyone. Always have been. I had a program setup years ago to record the streams of the Orlando summer league. I have rss feeds that record to folders on my computer whenever a couple sites post NBA related information. I figured out what folder ESPN motion saved NBA highlights in on my computer in like 2004 and got them out every morning for review. Right this moment...I have like 6 tabs open...5 of them basketball related.

I watched much of a Jazz/Blazers game from like 1993 earlier. I have 8 hour tapes in this room that are the NBA on NBC.

I once turned off the superbowl to watch a tape of Kwame Brown in the summer league.

My 360 has an ESPN app for the express purpose of watching the euroleague streams.

I got up at 5am to watch Tmac and yaos first preseason games together in china.

Ive not missed a team USA scrimmage that was on tv ever. I have vivid memory of Jordan diving out of bounds saving the ball over his head and it ended up being an open jumper for Bird on the left side of the floor from like 16 feet.

I have the Katrina charity game on a tape and ive watched the Tmac/Arenas back and forth 3s part 200 times.

The bookmarks on my phones browser go to 3 sites that stream basketball games live.

I am not normal...but I am not...uninformed.

I dont expect people to care as much as I care. I just find it odd...when people need help to remember what they think of guys who retired 2-3 years ago.

[iamgine]

I am the kind of person who watches everyone. Always have been. I had a program setup years ago to record the streams of the Orlando summer league. I have rss feeds that record to folders on my computer whenever a couple sites post NBA related information. I figured out what folder ESPN motion saved NBA highlights in on my computer in like 2004 and got them out every morning for review. Right this moment...I have like 6 tabs open...5 of them basketball related.

I watched much of a Jazz/Blazers game from like 1993 earlier. I have 8 hour tapes in this room that are the NBA on NBC.

I once turned off the superbowl to watch a tape of Kwame Brown in the summer league.

My 360 has an ESPN app for the express purpose of watching the euroleague streams.

I got up at 5am to watch Tmac and yaos first preseason games together in china.

Ive not missed a team USA scrimmage that was on tv ever. I have vivid memory of Jordan diving out of bounds saving the ball over his head and it ended up being an open jumper for Bird on the left side of the floor from like 16 feet.

I have the Katrina charity game on a tape and ive watched the Tmac/Arenas back and forth 3s part 200 times.

The bookmarks on my phones browser go to 3 sites that stream basketball games live.

I am not normal...but I am not...uninformed.

I dont expect people to care as much as I care. I just find it odd...when people need help to remember what they think of guys who retired 2-3 years ago.
I don't really find it odd. Some people trust their instinct and watching experience when evaluating players. Some find it more comfortable to ask many people to get a more accurate picture. Others rely on statistics as an unbiased tool. All of these have their own flaws and biases.

[Toizumi]

That's natural though. People who didn't get the chance to watch or live in that moment would use what's available, which is stats, accomplishments and hearsay.

Understandable.. I have to do the same with players who played before my day. I try to watch footage and read up on those players as well.

Based on stats and stories, it's easy to argue for GP over AI.
Easy to say that AI was much less efficient on offense and that GP had much better defense and therefore GP>AI. Stats and accomplishments back that up. Yeah Iverson had an MVP, but damn look at his numbers, he was overrated etc. etc. and everyone remembers how AI's career burned out, since it was so recent. I can understand why posters who never witnessed the late 90's, early 00's pick GP over AI..

However, having watched both players, no way I'm taking GP over AI. As Kblaze pointed out, this wouldnt even be a discussion back in the day.. hardly anybody would take prime GP over AI. Yes, GP played greater D, but AI's impact on his team offensively was on a whole nother level. AI was an MVP type player (even won one), GP was a superstar, but never as big a star as AI. It had nothing to do with popularity, AI was just the better player. It's not like they played in different era's either.

Iverson gets my vote.

[iamgine]

Talking about stats, here's their head to head from 98-02 (both players in their primes). Take it how you want.

8 games (4-4)

Iverson
27.5 PPG (52.7 TS%)
3 AST
4.6 RBD
2.7 TO

Payton
21.8 PPG (52.6 TS%)
7.9 AST
4.5 RBD
3.4 TO

[RobertdeMeijer]

I watched my fair share of Payton and Iverson. I remember Payton giving everybody he defended a hard time. We all agree on this.

But I also remember Iverson taking alot of shots he should not have taken.

If you only watched the highlight reels of Iverson, I imagine you think he's a great scorer, because he's so fast and nimble. But the 76ers had a bad offense. I always felt that they would be better with another player.

Looking at the 2001 playoffs, I recall thinking how the offensive plan for the 76ers was to have Iverson try to shoot and have Mutombo score with the offensive rebound. Then Mutombo got owned by Shaq.

[G.O.A.T]

GP_20

Stay the **** out of the Thread

[Soothing Layup]

I watched my fair share of Payton and Iverson. I remember Payton giving everybody he defended a hard time. We all agree on this.

But I also remember Iverson taking alot of shots he should not have taken.

If you only watched the highlight reels of Iverson, I imagine you think he's a great scorer, because he's so fast and nimble. But the 76ers had a bad offense. I always felt that they would be better with another player.

Looking at the 2001 playoffs, I recall thinking how the offensive plan for the 76ers was to have Iverson try to shoot and have Mutombo score with the offensive rebound. Then Mutombo got owned by Shaq.

Hey, your bias is showing.

[Gotterdammerung]

GP_20

Stay the **** out of the Thread
Can't expect a GP homer to stay mum whenever his hero is subjected to scrutiny by his peers.

But for the record are u comparing shooting guards to point guards in one single category?

[G.O.A.T]

Can't expect a GP homer to stay mum whenever his hero is subjected to scrutiny by his peers.

But for the record are u comparing shooting guards to point guards in one single category?

Yes, the list covers all players who spent the majority of their career as guards.

GP has been asked for years to stay out of threads I create because of his constant trolling.

[Pushxx]

I think people forgot how bad Iverson's teammates were on offense on those Sixers teams.

This is a sad debate...I mean...who votes Reggie Miller over Dennis Johnson? LOL This isn't a debate of who is the better color commentator.

[SFMF]

I would like to begin by readdressing something that others said: Gary Payton was a better fit for a championship caliber team. Iverson worked truly hard being an undersized 'score-first' guard, and accomplished a lot with the Sixers for a short period. However, the superstar's Sixers missed the playoffs 4 times out of 10 seasons, and he could not find a proper franchise for him to lead the team to success. It is clear to me that he wasn't a better fit for a championship caliber team compared to Payton because after his years as a Sixer, Iverson could not even find a right place while maintaining his 'score-first' guard style as an undersized guard, which led to this: wherever he went his teams did not do well (playoffs).

Payton's all-around play while arguably being the best defensive guard of all time, and his teams' success during his years as a Sonic as well as playing on other teams, convinces me to go with Gary Payton.

[EricForman]

Gary Payton is probably my favorite player ever, but damn this is tough. I feel that, in their absolute peaks, AI "impacted" the game slightly more, BUT i think overall, if you have one guy over a decade, GP could probably get you more wins AND is easier to build around because he is a great defender and a real PG
(Iverson was never a PG, assists numbers can be misleading, see Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury...both guys had high assist numbers but I bet someone like Duncan involve their teammates/get them good looks more. I'm NOT putting Iverson on that horrible Marbury/Francis level but I feel his assist numbers lean towards that end than the Stockton/Nash types)

Anyway, I'd have to give it to GP by a hair because of the defense. Although in today's league where rules make playing perimeter defense HARDER, GP may lose that edge.

[Kblaze8855]

I would kinda like to see what GP does when he cant really touch a guy. And it love to see young speedy AI these days when guards are allowed to run wild. AI put up 33 a game past his prime once they changed up how the ycalled the game. Same year Kobe dropped 35, Lebron like 31, Arenas 30 and on and on. I wanna see 22-23 year old AI out there now. He took more than 200 more FTs at 30 than he did at his peak shooting just as much.

At 30...

34/8 a game on 45% shooting in november
34.4/7 on 46% in december
32/8 on 45% in january

31/7 on 42%, 32/8 on 44%, and 34/7 on 45% to end the year.

And he turned 31 during the season.

Makes me wonder what a 22-23 year old AI might do if he got to play from like 05-2012 in his prime instead of his peak being the lowest scoring post shot clock stretch in history.

Young AI on the current Warriors in place of Monta....in 06 to 08....wouldnt shock me if he put up 35 a game. He did 33 as it was.....

[Kblaze8855]

Not sure about that. Not that he couldnt if he put his mind to it...but I dont know that he would. Plus his style of scoring(open court quickness and spins to the basket...quick post ups....midrange jumpers...spot up shots) doesnt beenfit as muc has Ais faceup one on one back you off and hit the jumper or get by you and get fouled or lay it up style.

AI was made to play the style the rules favor now.

[Gotterdammerung]

Yeah I was away for the KJ topic, but there is no way I am staying away for the GP topic.


Besides I will just be providing rational and logical arguments for Payton. Nothing wrong with that.
There was no KJ thread. In case u were talking about a thread KJ was discussed did u build him up to prop up Payton? They were rivals although KJ peaked before Payton did.

Ad hominem attacks are neither rational nor logical arguments no matter who your favorite player is.

Perhaps GOAT was right. Only trolls use ad hom attacks and other fallacies.

[Soothing Layup]

2000-2001: 31.1 ppg 4.8 assts
2001-2002: 31.4 ppg 6.8 assts
2002 - 2003: 27.6 ppg 5.5 assts
2004-2005; 30.7 ppg 7.9 assts
2005-2006: 33.0 ppg 7.4 assts

Allen Iverson was a beast offensively.

P.S. I'll always take the guy with beast offense and decent D over a guy with vice versa.

[Kblaze8855]

Good as anyone? Nah. He wasnt KJ, AI, Wade or anything like that. He was pretty good. Not one of the top level finishers. He wasnt even Tony Parker.

[Sampsonsimpson]

Allen Iverson

Gary was bigger and could be more effective on defense in that way and he may have been a slightly,just barely better playmaker. But I think Iverson was the better basketball player

[G.O.A.T]

PROJECT POSTPONED UNTIL GP_20 leaves of his own accord or the mods suspend his account.

Sorry, you lost your privilege to participate in my threads a long time ago.

You are not capable of doing anything but making the project worse

[NuggetsFan]

He was as good at driving to the basket and getting a lay-up as anyone.

Payton wasn't near the slasher Iverson was, let alone "good as anyone".

[RRR3]

PROJECT POSTPONED UNTIL GP_20 leaves of his own accord or the mods suspend his account.

Sorry, you lost your privilege to participate in my threads a long time ago.

You are not capable of doing anything but making the project worse
Ouch. What'd he do?

[G-train]

PROJECT POSTPONED UNTIL GP_20 leaves of his own accord or the mods suspend his account.

Sorry, you lost your privilege to participate in my threads a long time ago.

You are not capable of doing anything but making the project worse

LOL

'Privilege to participate in my threads'... biggest ego in ISH?

[Kblaze8855]

I disagree. He wasn't called the "lay-up king" for nothing. Every time I saw him try to drive in and get a lay-up I was the most confident he would score.

So Gary Payton is an all time great finisher going to the basket like the players I mentioned? Hes as good as a guy like tony Parker who was at one point leading the NBA in points in the paint over every bigman and shooting like 55%. Hes as good as Wade who is going to the HOf almost entirely due to his slashing ability.

Things like this are probably why dude doesnt want you in the topics. People get so in love with their favorite players they cant concede that they arent top flight in anything. Like the Jordan fans who want to bring him up as one of the best ____ of all time no matter what it is.

[G-train]

I can agree with Payton over Iverson.

I know is a little obsessive when GP20 argued with me about Payton being greater than Kobe Bryant.

[RRR3]

I can agree with Payton over Iverson.

I know is a little obsessive when GP20 argued with me about Payton being greater than Kobe Bryant.
Wow. Now there's an argument I'd love to hear LOL.

[Kblaze8855]

I dontcare if someone wants Payton over AI. Ai is a bit of a specialist. Hes a 5'11'' scorer. But guy is making claims like hes 2 full tiers over AI?

You know the level right above AI? Just...factually superior far as all time level and accomplishments?

Maybe...

Jerry West?

just off accomplishments the way they measure it here:

http://databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadershof.htm

There are only 5 guards over AI.

Being 2 full levels over AI pretty much means you are top 15-20 all time. This is an MVP, 3-4 time all nba first teamer, who led the nba in scoring 4 times, took a team to the finals, and is the 5th all time leading scorer per game.

You have to accomplish a lot more than Gary Payton did or be a lot more dominant that Gary was to be 2 levels over Iverson.

[rodman91]

GP_20 makes me wanna change my nick. :lol

[magnax1]

But of course we do the forgetting what people actually thought at the time thing around here. Which is probably why relentless arguing and propping him up to people who barely remember the 90s got GP ranked over Ewing in the ISh list when 4 people on the planet would have said he was better than Ewing at the time. Or even in the late 90s...that he was better than Ewing was a few years earlier. But we disregard how good players actually were...what the world thought...all that. And decide in retrospect to bump a guy or two up based on emotional attachment.
That happened? That's extremely surprising, even if most of the people on here never saw them play much.
Anyway, I understand why GOAT wants GP_20 gone. He honestly is the most useless poster on this board, and I thought at one point he agreed hed never post again because he lot a bet. All he ever does is try and prop up KJ and Payton though.

[magnax1]

:facepalm

While there have been many stupid posts in this thread, this one takes the grand prize. Did I just hear someone who shot 47% in his prime (94-03) and was not TO prone (had a high Ast:TO ratio for a PG) called inefficient? Wow. Didn't know 47% had suddenly become inefficient for a guard not to mention having a high Ast:TO ratio (as high as Kidd's prime-wise) is also bad.
Amazing. And AI is in this discussion.
I'm not going to argue with you, but Gary Payton in his 24 ppg season had the same TS% as AI in his 33 ppg season (54%) Just wanted to point that out so everyone could see the BS you're spewing.

[bizil]

Wow this one is tough! I think AI gets a bad rap due at times. Sure he isn't as effcient as some other great scorers. But AI had a lot on his plate in Philly. With him being 6'0 and 160 he used to play so fearless and get beat up. He played with guys most of the time who couldn't throw a rock in the ocean. And even though he was a SG, he had to be the main assist guy as well. To sum it up, it formed AI's mentality to take bad shots in order to win at times. If anything he was too over anxious at times in trying to win. So it led to him not being as efficient. But moving AI to SG meant constructing a team around him built the right way. You needed a bigger PG out there at least at 6'3 or 6'4 who could D up SG's. AI was an excellent ball handler and passer, but his mentality was better at the SG.

GP, along with Clyde Frazier, on the other hand is the GOAT PG in terms of combining scoring, assists, and defense. That's a hell of a accomplishment. Magic is the GOAT PG hands down. But Payton is the greatest in another regard. GP proved he could be a Batman scorer at PG when needed and will a team. He could check PG, SG, and even some SF's. So in the end I feel this argument comes down to what team it is. On a GOAT list, AI might get the nod over GP even though its very, very, very close. But for my team I will take GP. Awesome floor general and if I need him to go off on a scoring binge he can do it. Just like PG's such as Magic, Zeke, Big O, Tiny, Clyde, and even Nash.

[ZaaaaaH]

:oldlol: at you for using a statistic for ball handling


Thats what She said ~

[Gotterdammerung]

Actually Tony Parker was much quicker than Payton, and he perfected a tear drop in the paint that was deadlier than Payton's layup. I watched both players' entire careers (started in 1986 sporadically, and religiously in 1991).

So, while Payton seemed to have better grip, enabling him to palm the ball & shoot layups from different point releases, Parker's quickness enabled him to get by defenders much easier and his tear drop's release point was higher than Payton.

Complaining about hand check rules has zero to do with this, and a classic case of goalpost moving, so drop the act. :no:


Says the guy who ranked John Stockton over Magic Johnson :facepalm Do you have any credibility at all?

No opinion is objective. Magnax is entitled to his own, no matter how backassward it may seem. All you can do is argue the point, persuade the crowd, instead of attacking the person.

But hey! When you can't play your hand, you play the man! :oldlol:

[ZaaaaaH]

A lot of Overrating on Payton and A lot of Underrating on Iverson in this thread.

[magnax1]

Actually Tony Parker was much quicker than Payton, and he perfected a tear drop in the paint that was deadlier than Payton's layup. I watched both players' entire careers (started in 1986 sporadically, and religiously in 1991).

So, while Payton seemed to have better grip, enabling him to palm the ball & shoot layups from different point releases, Parker's quickness enabled him to get by defenders much easier and his tear drop's release point was higher than Payton.

Complaining about hand check rules has zero to do with this, and a classic case of goalpost moving, so drop the act. :no:



No opinion is objective. Magnax is entitled to his own, no matter how backassward it may seem. All you can do is argue the point, persuade the crowd, instead of attacking the person.

But hey! When you can't play your hand, you play the man! :oldlol:
It's not even my opinion
:lol

[iamgine]

PROJECT POSTPONED UNTIL GP_20 leaves of his own accord or the mods suspend his account.

Sorry, you lost your privilege to participate in my threads a long time ago.

You are not capable of doing anything but making the project worse
Neither will happen so it's suspended forever?

Come on lets goo Nash vs Payton!

[magnax1]

Neither will happen so it's suspended forever?

Come on lets goo Nash vs Payton!
Yeah. The only way we get him banned is if we got everyone to press his little complain button. Even then, it probably won't happen, so just go on with the project.

[G-train]

Neither will happen so it's suspended forever?

Come on lets goo Nash vs Payton!

It's easily solved: GOAT can put GP on ignore, have his set time frame then tally the votes.

[G-train]

Yeah. The only way we get him banned is if we got everyone to press his little complain button. Even then, it probably won't happen, so just go on with the project.

He wont ever get banned for just arguing about bball.
Especially when arguing about a top ten PG ever being better than a top ten SG ever.

[magnax1]

He wont ever get banned for just arguing about bball.
Especially when arguing about a top ten PG ever being better than a top ten SG ever.
:lol
That's not all he's done, and there have been guys banned for a lot less. Hell, I think GOAT was banned for a while.

[Kblaze8855]

Tony Parker only gets to the paint so well because of these hand-checking rules. Wade is a better slasher, but his 'finishes' are more at the FT line rather than the lay-ups Payton was so good at. All I'm saying is driving in and getting a lay-up (not FT line, not dunk, not anything else), GP is one of the best ever. And if you have seen him play and remember him well, that should be obvious.

Really removing plays because a guy who is more athletic than GP can just dunk it and not have to lay it up? And throwing out getting to the basket and getting fouled...which Wade has used to win titles? No justification for it at all.

Long as Jordan, Wade, AI, Parker, KJ, Lebron, and many others exist...Gary doesnt belong in a discussion with the best players ever going to the basket.


He was better than Parker

........

[Gotterdammerung]

One of the greatest games I've ever seen and never saw again:
Link (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/10/pbts-retroball-suns-sonics-93-and-the-night-barkley-wouldnt-lose/)

[quote=Matt Moore]
Gary Payton isn

[Kyle_korver]

I see gary Payton is gonna win but I choose iverson
Better career achievements
Stats of a god
Gary got a cheap ring with less value then Luke walton
N Gary stopped being relevant after the 90s
He's overrated in my eyes tbh
Alot of people thinks he locked up Jordan in the finals but NBA tv just showed that series this week n it wasnt the case at all plus bulls won
iverson in finals > Payton in finals

[ShaqAttack3234]

I would kinda like to see what GP does when he cant really touch a guy. And it love to see young speedy AI these days when guards are allowed to run wild. AI put up 33 a game past his prime once they changed up how the ycalled the game. Same year Kobe dropped 35, Lebron like 31, Arenas 30 and on and on. I wanna see 22-23 year old AI out there now. He took more than 200 more FTs at 30 than he did at his peak shooting just as much.

At 30...

34/8 a game on 45% shooting in november
34.4/7 on 46% in december
32/8 on 45% in january

31/7 on 42%, 32/8 on 44%, and 34/7 on 45% to end the year.

And he turned 31 during the season.

Makes me wonder what a 22-23 year old AI might do if he got to play from like 05-2012 in his prime instead of his peak being the lowest scoring post shot clock stretch in history.

Young AI on the current Warriors in place of Monta....in 06 to 08....wouldnt shock me if he put up 35 a game. He did 33 as it was.....

Yeah, I think the rule changes did benefit Iverson's scoring/efficiency, but his move to point guard in '04-'05 should also be noted when it comes to free throw attempts. He played off the ball more under Larry Brown, used more screens and shot more jumpers which isn't going to get you as many foul calls.

By 2008, there were a variety of factors that made his season so much more efficient such as Iverson playing with another elite scorer who was roughly his equal, the rule changes and playing on the fastest paced team in the league who were averaging anywhere from an extra 7-11 possessions per game than his 2000-2003 Sixer teams.

The rule changes were definitely something that varied from player to player, though. Pierce saw a similar boost compared to his previous high scoring years(2001-2003) while Kobe's free throws per shot weren't much different and he had already showed a similar ability when given the green light midseason in 2003.


I dontcare if someone wants Payton over AI. Ai is a bit of a specialist. Hes a 5'11'' scorer. But guy is making claims like hes 2 full tiers over AI?

Well said, I think they're pretty similar in terms of level of play during their primes/peaks, but different and I prefer Payton's style for more teams which is the difference for me.

Most years throughout their primes(maybe '00-'06 for Iverson and '95-'02 for Payton), they were around the lower part of the top 10 each season, maybe a little higher or lower depending on their year. I think that Iverson peaked as a top 4-5 player in 2001(behind Shaq, Duncan and Kobe) and right around with KG, and could accept an argument for Iverson over Kobe that year as reasonable.

Payton peaked as a top 4-6 player in 1998, imo behind Jordan, Shaq and Malone and in the same range as Duncan and Robinson that year(Duncan was a rookie).

But as far as both of their peaks, Iverson's is more impressive to me.

They're not tiers apart. Take 2000 for example, neither were at their best that season, imo(though it was Payton's best statistically), but they were both close to their primes, if not in part of their primes and Payton made all-nba first team over Iverson, but the following year, Iverson was all-nba first team and Payton was on the third team, and both were second team in 2002(though Iverson missed 22 games).


I'm not going to argue with you, but Gary Payton in his 24 ppg season had the same TS% as AI in his 33 ppg season (54%) Just wanted to point that out so everyone could see the BS you're spewing.

Well, in fairness, the league average for TS% in 2000 was around 52% and most of the best/most efficient scorers were big men.

In 2000, the only perimeter players who scored more than Payton were

Iverson- 28.4 ppg, 42.1 FG%, 49.6 TS%
Hill- 25.8 ppg, 48.9 FG%, 56.5 TS%
Carter- 25.7 ppg, 46.5 FG%, 54.3 TS%

And the other perimeter players who were at least within 2 ppg of Payton were Stackhouse(23.6 ppg, 54.5 TS%), Finley(22.6 ppg, 52.2 TS%), Kobe(22.5 ppg, 54.6 TS%) and Marbury(22.2 ppg, 52.8 TS%)

So a direct comparison to 2006 isn't really fair, imo, I doubt any version of Iverson is putting up 33 ppg on 54 TS% in 2000. I am aware that there was more perimeter talent in 2006 too so I'm not necessarily saying that listing the other top perimeter players proves a point.

But the funny thing is, I don't think either Payton or Iverson were as good in their 2000 and 2006 seasons, respectively as their stats suggest.

But there should be no questions that Iverson was a superior scorer, that is blatantly obvious to anyone who watched both of them play, and for those that need stats, you don't need to go across eras to show that.

Look at 2001, Iverson puts up 31 ppg on 52 TS%, is there any reasonable argument for 24 ppg on 54 TS% in the same era being a better scoring season? The difference in points is a lot bigger than the difference in efficiency, and once again, stats shouldn't even be necessary to state that Iverson was a better scorer. And in that same 2001 season, Payton averaged 23 ppg and had the same TS% as Iverson did averaging 31(52%).

[SuperPippen]

Have all of GP_20's posts mysteriously disappeared from the thread?

[iamgine]

Have all of GP_20's posts mysteriously disappeared from the thread?
It has disappeared...but not mysteriously.

[Kblaze8855]

That is...outstanding.

[GP_20]

Wow f*uck this

[artificial]

My faith in the ISH mods is re-established. Wow. Nice work guys!

[Kblaze8855]

Yea...some of the best moderating in recent history. Im voting the mod responsible onto my all mod first team and giving him a first place MVP vote provided his forum finishes top 3.

[magnax1]

Yeah, I think the rule changes did benefit Iverson's scoring/efficiency, but his move to point guard in '04-'05 should also be noted when it comes to free throw attempts. He played off the ball more under Larry Brown, used more screens and shot more jumpers which isn't going to get you as many foul calls.

By 2008, there were a variety of factors that made his season so much more efficient such as Iverson playing with another elite scorer who was roughly his equal, the rule changes and playing on the fastest paced team in the league who were averaging anywhere from an extra 7-11 possessions per game than his 2000-2003 Sixer teams.

The rule changes were definitely something that varied from player to player, though. Pierce saw a similar boost compared to his previous high scoring years(2001-2003) while Kobe's free throws per shot weren't much different and he had already showed a similar ability when given the green light midseason in 2003.



Well said, I think they're pretty similar in terms of level of play during their primes/peaks, but different and I prefer Payton's style for more teams which is the difference for me.

Most years throughout their primes(maybe '00-'06 for Iverson and '95-'02 for Payton), they were around the lower part of the top 10 each season, maybe a little higher or lower depending on their year. I think that Iverson peaked as a top 4-5 player in 2001(behind Shaq, Duncan and Kobe) and right around with KG, and could accept an argument for Iverson over Kobe that year as reasonable.

Payton peaked as a top 4-6 player in 1998, imo behind Jordan, Shaq and Malone and in the same range as Duncan and Robinson that year(Duncan was a rookie).

But as far as both of their peaks, Iverson's is more impressive to me.

They're not tiers apart. Take 2000 for example, neither were at their best that season, imo(though it was Payton's best statistically), but they were both close to their primes, if not in part of their primes and Payton made all-nba first team over Iverson, but the following year, Iverson was all-nba first team and Payton was on the third team, and both were second team in 2002(though Iverson missed 22 games).



Well, in fairness, the league average for TS% in 2000 was around 52% and most of the best/most efficient scorers were big men.

In 2000, the only perimeter players who scored more than Payton were

Iverson- 28.4 ppg, 42.1 FG%, 49.6 TS%
Hill- 25.8 ppg, 48.9 FG%, 56.5 TS%
Carter- 25.7 ppg, 46.5 FG%, 54.3 TS%

And the other perimeter players who were at least within 2 ppg of Payton were Stackhouse(23.6 ppg, 54.5 TS%), Finley(22.6 ppg, 52.2 TS%), Kobe(22.5 ppg, 54.6 TS%) and Marbury(22.2 ppg, 52.8 TS%)

So a direct comparison to 2006 isn't really fair, imo, I doubt any version of Iverson is putting up 33 ppg on 54 TS% in 2000. I am aware that there was more perimeter talent in 2006 too so I'm not necessarily saying that listing the other top perimeter players proves a point.

But the funny thing is, I don't think either Payton or Iverson were as good in their 2000 and 2006 seasons, respectively as their stats suggest.

But there should be no questions that Iverson was a superior scorer, that is blatantly obvious to anyone who watched both of them play, and for those that need stats, you don't need to go across eras to show that.

Look at 2001, Iverson puts up 31 ppg on 52 TS%, is there any reasonable argument for 24 ppg on 54 TS% in the same era being a better scoring season? The difference in points is a lot bigger than the difference in efficiency, and once again, stats shouldn't even be necessary to state that Iverson was a better scorer. And in that same 2001 season, Payton averaged 23 ppg and had the same TS% as Iverson did averaging 31(52%).
I was really just comparing their highest scoring seasons to eachother to try and make the point that Payton really wasn't any more efficient. I don't really disagree with anything you said. However I don't really doubt that Iverson could've shot around 54% in 01 if he had Chris Webber instead of Mutumbo as his first option. I do think Iverson's innefeciency in most of his seasons has more to do with lack of help (and injuies a couple seasons) then anything else. Not that he was ever going to be a high efficiency scorer in the first place.

[magnax1]

Yea...some of the best moderating in recent history. Im voting the mod responsible onto my all mod first team and giving him a first place MVP vote provided his forum finishes top 3.
I thought only ISH administrators had the power to delete posts?

[ThaSwagg3r]

I thought only ISH administrators had the power to delete posts?
They only have the power to ban although on other sites Global mods can ban too. I don't think there is any global mods on this site other than the admin.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Its time to move on to Payton vs. Nash......too bad one of these guys will have to stop at #13 because both of these guys should be ahead of both Kidd and Stockton, not one of them.

[magnax1]

I understand if it was frustrating or if you personally dont like someone, but he wrote pages of basketball debate and then some d-bag deletes them?
Dunno about that.
It's not like he was trying to participate in the discussion. He just wants everyone to know that they're all wrong, and Gary Payton is actually as good as Kobe, not Allen Iverson.

[G-train]

It's not like he was trying to participate in the discussion. He just wants everyone to know that they're all wrong, and Gary Payton is actually as good as Kobe, not Allen Iverson.

Not delete worthy.

[magnax1]

Not delete worthy.
It is to me. He's been asked to leave by GOAT..... for 2 years, or however long it is that GOAT has been on here. He doesn't spawn any sort of civil debate, and the only time he comes around is if he feels KJ or Payton have been slandered. That's basically what guys like Thelogo do, and he was banned.

[G-train]

It is to me. He's been asked to leave by GOAT..... for 2 years, or however long it is that GOAT has been on here. He doesn't spawn any sort of civil debate, and the only time he comes around is if he feels KJ or Payton have been slandered. That's basically what guys like Thelogo do, and he was banned.

So? GOAT has no power. He is just a poster that disagrees with him. His opinions are false in plenty of people eyes too.
I have been on this site for years and while GP20 can be frustrating, he brings solid arguments to the table, even when I disagree. He is nothing like the logo.

[Story Up]

Glove did in the past contribute some real good basketball threads, similar threads to this. I also think it was wrong to at least let him post his opinion, not letting him participate would have been just enough. A little too much power trips going on here; I do feel somewhat bad for him being singled out like this.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Glove did in the past contribute some real good basketball threads, similar threads to this. I also think it was wrong to at least let him post his opinion, not letting him participate would have been just enough. A little too much power trips going on here; I do feel somewhat bad for him being singled out like this.
GOAT posted earlier that the project will be on hold until Glove stops posting in this thread, deleting his posts is the only way that would cause him to stop.


PROJECT POSTPONED UNTIL GP_20 leaves of his own accord or the mods suspend his account.

Sorry, you lost your privilege to participate in my threads a long time ago.

You are not capable of doing anything but making the project worse

[G-train]

GOAT posted earlier that the project will be on hold until Glove stops posting in this thread, deleting his posts is the only way that would cause him to stop.

Well the posts are gone now so he achieved his goal of eradicating him.

He can keep his little project going.

[winwin]

little girls

[EricForman]

so why did the mods single out GP20's post but let the Kobe trolls keep going? I mean there is no way GP20 was worse than Kobe trolls, who, in the past week or two, have implied the following:

A: Jordan's 2003 Wizards cast is as good as Dirk's 2011 cast, that means Jordan sucks because he couldn't make playoffs. Oh and Kobe's better.

B: Jordan played in a steroid era so he probably used steroids, that means he's really not that good. Oh and Kobe's better.

C: Pippen won 55 games in 94 and was one blown call from winning it all, that means Jordan's not that good. Oh and Kobe's better.

the mods let this sh*t go but get all controlling over everything else? :confusedshrug:

GP over Iverson is hardly "ridiculous", a good case can be made for both. And to those of you pointing out that had younger AI played in today's rules he woulda done more, well... wouldn't have GP as well? ALL PERIMETER PLAYERS benefited from the 2005 rule change, in addition to Iverson, Ray Allen, Iverson, Michael Redd, Nash, Pierce all suddenly had career years post-2005. Ray Allen went from a 20-22 point scorer for like 8 straight years to suddenly dropping 26 a night and breaking 50 points multiple times. Michael Redd dropped 58 and Damon Stoudemire dropped 50 when guys like Grant Hill and Penny couldn't crack 45 in the 90s.

So when you're saying "Young Iverson woulda had better numbers in today's era"... are you thinking GP wouldn't get a numbers boost as well?

[Kblaze8855]

Glove once told me Zo was only a great defender for 2 years when he was making the case that Payton had more defensive impact on games than Zo. Zo...who was on a team with few real defensive players that was holding teams to 42-43% shooting for years. Zo who was at times the best defender in the playoffs...like...7-8 years past his prime after his illness.

When people take the love of anyone to that extent there is very little they have to say that needs saying. Plus...hes just gonna flat out refuse not to argue in the guys topic? Guy is making an effort to do something hes spending weeks on...and he just flatly refuses to stay out? Claims nobody can stop him?

Its at least a little funny to see that someone can.

Free speech it seems has no place on the internet. At times troubling...when its just some guy not being allowed to be a cheerleader for a guy when hes been asked not to do it?

Not so troubling.

[Story Up]

That's why there is an ignore function. Him being a homer or troll already makes him ineligible for this project. GOAT should have just ignored him and anyone who didn't want to read his posts; freedom of speech is everyone's right and people who actually read his posts should be allowed to. Deleting his posts just demonstrates inequality when idiots like Paul are allowed to create redundant threads every second of every day.

I'm not a dan of Glove, he can be really annoying but the guy does know basketball despite his lack of objectivity concerning his favorite players.

Like I said, ignoring him would have been just to anyone who wish to do so; others who wish to discuss ball with him should be allowed to do so. Kblaze, you were attacked by many in the Reggie thread; no one singles you out despite your obvious hatred.

[Kblaze8855]

When I mentioned it a while back I was told freedom of speech doesnt exist in privately owned places because even if you have the right to speak you dont have the right to exist where you arent wanted if someone has the right to remove you by force. If you walk into a library they arent violating your rights to make you leave if you are being loud. As public as a forum may seem...they really arent.

Setting out to disrupt(in the eyes of its creator) a project it seems ISH has an interest in seeing completed appears to be enough to warrant a response.

If he made a topic saying "I think this about ____" I doubt its bothered. It isnt the opinions. its the "Im gonna say this here and you cant stop me" part of it I suspect.

Long story short....if someone spends weeks with a project and doesnt want you involved its probably best to not be a dick and force your way in because you think nobody will stop you.

I doubt anyone cares enough to stop him if he wants to be a GP cheerleader in his own way. Just not in a way that disrupts other peoples efforts.

[ThaRegul8r]

When I mentioned it a while back I was told freedom of speech doesnt exist in privately owned places because even if you have the right to speak you dont have the right to exist where you arent wanted if someone has the right to remove you by force. If you walk into a library they arent violating your rights to make you leave if you are being loud. As public as a forum may seem...they really arent.

It doesn't. It's ridiculous that people try to talk about "freedom of speech" (which is an American thing (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/us/12hate.html?pagewanted=all)) on a message board. You have to agree to a Terms of Service before you can even do anything on a message board. There are rules laid out as to what you cannot say and cannot do. If you violate these rules, you can be banned. If one doesn't like it, one can get gone. Go make your own board where you can do whatever you want. (And when people talk about "freedom," they always mean "license to do whatever I want," and they're never interested in responsibility that comes with freedom, as in taking responsibility, when you've got people doing things like suing airlines for not waking them up when they fell asleep and subsequently miss their flight. I wanna do whatever I want, but then blame any outcomes on my actions on anyone else other than me.) There is no "freedom of speech" on a message board, other than being free to abide by the guidelines the creators of the board set.

[StroShow4]

Yea...some of the best moderating in recent history. Im voting the mod responsible onto my all mod first team and giving him a first place MVP vote provided his forum finishes top 3.

Vote for Glove_20.

http://i56.tinypic.com/21evz84.jpg

[iamgine]

In what season did Gary Payton became one of the GOAT defender? Was it in his DPOY season or earlier? And when did he lose that title?

[G.O.A.T]

Payton advances

Thanks to the moderators here and the admins for the support.

The last two days were the most frustrating and time consuming for the project. I read every post from someone not on my ignore list to make sure I don't miss any votes or requests to join the voting, or even miss the chance to invite someone who is doing a good job opining.

GP_20 makes that very tough to do because he constantly instigates arguments. Not debates but arguments where he presents his side and ignores everything else. It was bringing down the project.

I haven't posted in a thread he's created in years and have asked him numerous times to stay out of mine. I don't see why that's unfair. It's one or two threads at a time on a forum with literally thousands of topics being discussed.

Had he shown up at any other time except only when KJ and Payton votes came up, maybe I could take him serious, but you all seen when he popped in and how many posts he was making.

Thanks again to everyone for the support, sorry to those who think it was a childish move (it is to some extent) but this project takes up at least an hour a day for me. I didn't feel spending that hour frustrated.

[Gotterdammerung]

Vote for Glove_20.
Ah what did the GP troll say in response to my posted excerpt? :confusedshrug:

[StroShow4]

Ah what did the GP troll say in response to my posted excerpt? :confusedshrug:

Neither post acknowledged it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I was really just comparing their highest scoring seasons to eachother to try and make the point that Payton really wasn't any more efficient. I don't really disagree with anything you said. However I don't really doubt that Iverson could've shot around 54% in 01 if he had Chris Webber instead of Mutumbo as his first option. I do think Iverson's innefeciency in most of his seasons has more to do with lack of help (and injuies a couple seasons) then anything else. Not that he was ever going to be a high efficiency scorer in the first place.

Nah, I don't see teams paying any less attention to one of the most dangerous scorers in the game because of C-Webb post-microfracture surgery. I liked C-Webb in Sacramento, he was one of the top 5-10 players in the league there for several years and he had an amazing skill set with good athleticism, but once he got to Philadelphia, he wasn't much of a factor, despite his numbers.

I don't think that Webber by that point was really any better than Derrick Coleman when he went back to Philly in '01-'02 or Keith Van Horn when he played there.

[EricForman]

i'm quite surprised people on ISH voted for GP over Iverson.