Most Balanced Player In NBA History?

[PTB Fan]

Player who was equally great on both offense and defense.

Who is it?

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Jordan

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Hakeem
Duncan

[Aidan]

Hakeem
MJ
Pippen
Duncan
Malone
Young Shaq

[HylianNightmare]

magic
oscar

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan
Chamberlain
Hakeem
West

[eliteballer]

Well rebounding is a huge part of defense. Controlling the boards. Guys like Magic, Bird, Shaq when you combine their playmaking, efficient scoring with that are insurmountable.

[guy]

I'm not sure there was ever a player that was equally as great on offense and defense. The only players that come close IMO are Wilt, Hakeem, and Jordan.

[pauk]

jordan
oscar
lebron
pippen

[PTB Fan]

No one mention Wilt yet...neither the Logo or Kareem

[NugzHeat3]

Jordan was definitely more dominant on offense than defense.

Hakeem's defensive prime didn't overlap with his offensive prime save for a couple of years.

David Robinson and Tim Duncan deserve a mention.

[AirTupac]

jordan
oscar
lebron
pippen


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[PowerGlove]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
he isnt balanced now?:wtf:

[QuebecBaller]

AK47

Points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, offense, defense...

[Harison]

Dream probably. Jordan was fantastic defender, but much better know for his offense. Robinson maybe.

[Hondo]

Larry Bird
-amazing offensive player
-great passer
-one of the best shooters ever
-one of the best rebounders in the league year in, year out
-average man defender
-excellent in team defense
-one of the top hustle players

If he was faster laterally he would be the goat.

Everyone seems to have a hole in their game that makes them unbalanced. Jordan couldn't shoot from the perimeter, and wasn't as good defensively as what people make him out to be.
Pippen couldn't shoot consistently.
Magic, not much of a defender or a shooter (until later in his career).
LeBron is a choker, and is a terrible shooter

Actually, prime Kobe would probably be my pick. NO real weakness in his game at all. I liked a focused Kobe on defense more than a focused MJ.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan couldn't shoot from the perimeter, and wasn't as good defensively as what people make him out to be.

Actually, prime Kobe would probably be my pick. NO real weakness in his game at all. I liked a focused Kobe on defense more than a focused MJ.

This entire post is bullshit. :oldlol: lmao @ "couldn't shoot from the perimeter" and "I liked Kobe better than MJ on defense." Yeah, no agenda whatsoever. :oldlol:

[pauk]

Larry Bird
-amazing offensive player
-great passer
-one of the best shooters ever
-one of the best rebounders in the league year in, year out
-average man defender
-excellent in team defense
-one of the top hustle players

If he was faster laterally he would be the goat.

Everyone seems to have a hole in their game that makes them unbalanced. Jordan couldn't shoot from the perimeter, and wasn't as good defensively as what people make him out to be.
Pippen couldn't shoot consistently.
Magic, not much of a defender or a shooter (until later in his career).
LeBron is a choker, and is a terrible shooter

Actually, prime Kobe would probably be my pick. NO real weakness in his game at all. I liked a focused Kobe on defense more than a focused MJ.

bird was my favorite player of all time.....

but you need to drop dead... u are biased and blinded like hell...

lebron & pippen were much more balanced than bird...... magic is debatable tho... both of them were terrible defensively compared to pippen & lebron.... that "team defense" excuse needs to go...... pippen & lebron were both runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year... and are 1st team all-nba defenders....

not only that... but pippen & lebron were easily the most versatile defenders in NBA history aswell... alongside rodman.... what that means is they could efficientely defend up to 4 positions... even some centers...

[bizil]

PG: Payton (Clyde is so right there though)
SG: Jordan
SF: Pip (Hondo is right there and Bron could be the guy eventually)
PF: KG
C: Dream

Honorable mentions:

Kobe
Duncan
West
Wade
Dennis Johnson
Joe Dumars
Big O
Kareem
David Robinson
Ewing
Chris Paul
Isiah

[Jacks3]

Everyone seems to have a hole in their game that makes them unbalanced. Jordan couldn't shoot from the perimeter, and wasn't as good defensively as what people make him out to be.
Pippen couldn't shoot consistently.
Magic, not much of a defender or a shooter (until later in his career).
LeBron is a choker, and is a terrible shooter

Actually, prime Kobe would probably be my pick. NO real weakness in his game at all. I liked a focused Kobe on defense more than a focused MJ.
Great post. It's true that Jordan was a very mediocre shooter outside 18 feet and obviously he was terrible from three. Not to mention his mediocre handles.

I'd definitely say prime Kobe. In terms of technical proficiency, he was pretty much perfect.

[97 bulls]

Id say jordan, jabaar, olajuwan. Wilt, duncan, and shaq fts take them out of this. Magics defense hurts him. Birds athleticism hurts him. I could gon on and on

[jlauber]

Id say jordan, jabaar, olajuwan. Wilt, duncan, and shaq fts take them out of this. Magics defense hurts him. Birds athleticism hurts him. I could gon on and on

Chamberlain (and Shaq) MADE FTs. Wilt MADE over 600 more FTs in four less years than Hakeem. He also averaged 432 MADE per season, to Kareem's 335. Chamberlain was perhaps the game's greatest shot blocker, too. More and more evidence points to him averaging about 7 per game in his 71-72, and about six per game in his LAST season. And, of course, Pollack had him with over 10+ bpg in some SEASONS in the 60's.

[Hondo]

This entire post is bullshit. :oldlol: lmao @ "couldn't shoot from the perimeter" and "I liked Kobe better than MJ on defense." Yeah, no agenda whatsoever. :oldlol:

No bias at all. Jordan couldn't shoot from the perimeter, he was sooo streaky.
.173 (52 attempts)
.167 (18)
.182 (66)
.132 (53)
.276 (98)
.376 (245) - What happened in this season? Anomaly much?
.312 (93)
.270 (100)
.352 (230) - Again, another season with a higher percent and more attempts?
.500 (1994-95, shortened line distance and only 19 games played)
.427 (1995-96, shortened line)
.374 (1996-97, shortened line)
.238 (126)
.189 (53) Wizards
.291 (55) Wizards

You call that good 3 point shooting? 2 good seasons from the regular distance and 3 good seasons with a shortened line. Color me impressed.

And what is wrong with me saying I think Kobe on top of his game was a better defender? In my opinion he was, but he takes too many plays off. Jordan was by far more consistent, but I think a motivated Kobe is a better defender. Yeah yeah, I know Jordan has more defensive win shares etc (though Kobe has a higher defensive rating) - but from an subjective stand point, I watched both, and a locked in and focused Kobe is more of a shut down defender. He was a real terror. A game changer when focused. Jordan was a great defender, and overall I would consider him to be the better defender, he just didn't have that high level that Kobe could reach

[bizil]

I think two guys that could have been on this list eventually were G Hill and Penny Hardaway. It seem some guys get better on D as they age, kinda like Wade and Bron. I think Penny and Hill would have done the same, even though both were very good defenders to begin with.

[qrich]

Boris Diaw

[Odinn]

Id say jordan, jabaar, olajuwan. Wilt, duncan, and shaq fts take them out of this. Magics defense hurts him. Birds athleticism hurts him. I could gon on and on
Regular season; 0.688 ft%
Playoffs; 0.678 ft%

Not bad for a big man.

[gtfomyface]

bird was my favorite player of all time.....

but you need to drop dead... u are biased and blinded like hell...

lebron & pippen were much more balanced than bird...... magic is debatable tho... both of them were terrible defensively compared to pippen & lebron.... that "team defense" excuse needs to go...... pippen & lebron were both runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year... and are 1st team all-nba defenders....

not only that... but pippen & lebron were easily the most versatile defenders in NBA history aswell... alongside rodman.... what that means is they could efficientely defend up to 4 positions... even some centers...

sounds familiar

[OldSchoolBBall]

No bias at all. Jordan couldn't shoot from the perimeter, he was sooo streaky.
.173 (52 attempts)
.167 (18)
.182 (66)
.132 (53)
.276 (98)
.376 (245) - What happened in this season? Anomaly much?
.312 (93)
.270 (100)
.352 (230) - Again, another season with a higher percent and more attempts?
.500 (1994-95, shortened line distance and only 19 games played)
.427 (1995-96, shortened line)
.374 (1996-97, shortened line)
.238 (126)
.189 (53) Wizards
.291 (55) Wizards

You call that good 3 point shooting? 2 good seasons from the regular distance and 3 good seasons with a shortened line. Color me impressed.


Any time Jordan took more than a miniscule number of threes (1990, 1993, 1996, 1997; the latter two obviously with the shortened line) he shot a good percentage - your numbers above bear this out. He also shot 38.5+% from deep in the '91-'93 playoffs (including nearly 40% on 4 attempts per game in the '93 postseason). This suggests that Jordan was a rhythm three point shooter. Had he taken more threes on a consistent basis, he'd be in the 33.5-36.5+% range annually without question. he didn't do so because he felt it detracted from his definition of his own game (and he has said so).


And what is wrong with me saying I think Kobe on top of his game was a better defender? In my opinion he was, but he takes too many plays off. Jordan was by far more consistent, but I think a motivated Kobe is a better defender. Yeah yeah, I know Jordan has more defensive win shares etc (though Kobe has a higher defensive rating) - but from an subjective stand point, I watched both, and a locked in and focused Kobe is more of a shut down defender. He was a real terror. A game changer when focused. Jordan was a great defender, and overall I would consider him to be the better defender, he just didn't have that high level that Kobe could reach

lol This entire argument is farcical and doesn't deserve to be addressed. Kobe isn't as good as (much less better than) Jordan in any defensive area, be it one-on-one defense, team/help defense, or disruptive defense. The area they are the closest is one-on-one D, but Jordan is still better there (and more consistent to boot). lmao @ calling Kobe a "game changer" on defense when he never, in any season, even APPROACHED Jordan's defensive impact on games from '88-'92.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan, Lebron, & Chamberlain.

[tpols]

:roll: at Jordan making the list here.

Great defender.
Legendary offensive player.

The scales clearly tip in favor of his offensive game.

The only players that should be on this list are big men because their defensive impact can actually match their offensive impact.

Duncan
Hakeem
Wilt
Garnett
DRob
etc.

[Hondo]

lol This entire argument is farcical and doesn't deserve to be addressed. Kobe isn't as good as (much less better than) Jordan in any defensive area, be it one-on-one defense, team/help defense, or disruptive defense. The area they are the closest is one-on-one D, but Jordan is still better there (and more consistent to boot). lmao @ calling Kobe a "game changer" on defense when he never, in any season, even APPROACHED Jordan's defensive impact on games from '88-'92.

Well I guess we share different points of view. I just know if I had to trust one guy for one position of a big game, it would be Kobe. I'm a Celtics fan for life, and I find Kobe Bryant to be a repulsive individual. I have seen Michael Jordan play on numerous occasions over my life, and he is far and away the better defender, but for one meaningful possession, give me Kobe.

[jlauber]

While I honestly believe Chamberlain's 66-67 as THE greatest season in NBA history, his defense that season was very under-rated (however, in the post-season he outshot Russell, .556 to .358, and then Thurmond, .560 to .343), but how about Wilt's 67-68 and 63-64 seasons.

In his 67-68 season, he averaged 24.3 ppg on .595 shooting ( in a league that shot .446), as well as LEADING the league in ASSISTS. AND, his Defensive Win Shares that season was 10.73, which ranks SEVENTH all-time (Russell has the top-SIX seasons BTW.) Oh, and he LED the NBA in rebounding (and by a wide margin, at 23.8...Lucas was a distant 2nd at 19.0 rpg.)

And in his 63-64 season, he LED the NBA in scoring, at 36.9 ppg, as well as coming in second in FG% at .524 (behind Lucas' .527), in a league that shot .433. AND, he had a Defensive Win Share rating of 10.58, which ranks 8th ALL-TIME (once again, Russell has the Top-SIX, and then Wilt has the next two highest of all-time.) Oh, and BTW, he came in 2nd, behind Russell, in rebounding, at 22.3 rpg.

You could also throw Wilt's '65-66 season in there, as well. An 8.50 Defensive Win Share rating, which ranks 17th all-time (and just behind Hakeem's BEST season of 8.74 in '90.) THEN, all Chamberlain did that season was LEAD the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, AND FG% (a then record of .540, in a league that shot .433), as well as leading the league in rebounding at 24.6 rpg. He also found time to hand outy 5.2 apg, too.

[NauruDude]

I think Ilgauskas at least never seen him fall.

[Sarcastic]

:roll: at Jordan making the list here.

Great defender.
Legendary offensive player.

The scales clearly tip in favor of his offensive game.

The only players that should be on this list are big men because their defensive impact can actually match their offensive impact.

Duncan
Hakeem
Wilt
Garnett
DRob
etc.

So what you are saying is only big men can have an impact on defense?

[jlauber]

For those that see value in individual Defensive Ratings (which were begun in the 73-74 season...and AFTER Chamberlain and Russell retired)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_season.html

Kareem just blows Hakeem away.

[Hondo]

For those that see value in individual Defensive Ratings (which were begun in the 73-74 season...and AFTER Chamberlain and Russell retired)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_season.html

Kareem just blows Hakeem away.

Nice to see you talk about someone other than Wilt.

Question for you, excluding the 60's and 70's, who is your GOAT? Who are your top 5 players after the 70's?

[jlauber]

Nice to see you talk about someone other than Wilt.

Question for you, excluding the 60's and 70's, who is your GOAT? Who are your top 5 players after the 70's?

Well, here is my all-time Top-10...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Bird


So, it depends on where you place Kareem I guess.

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
6. Kobe, with Hakeem and Bird right there.

[RRR3]

Well, here is my all-time Top-10...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Bird


So, it depends on where you place Kareem I guess.

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
6. Kobe, with Hakeem and Bird right there.

I thought you thought Wilt was the GOAT. LOL @ Russell first.

[jlauber]

I thought you thought Wilt was the GOAT. LOL @ Russell first.

Actually, I think you could make a case for almost any of my Top-10. Individually, and IMHO, Chamberlain was the most dominant player to ever play the game. Russell's strength resided in his ability to make his teammates better, and his opposing team's worse. Magic and Duncan were very similar.

I have gotten to the point where I won't argue with other's, though (as long as their opinions are educated one's.)

In any case, all of those guys were great. Why bother disparaging ANY of them?

[jlauber]

Regarding Kareem's defense, how about the Bucks FG% against in his '71, '72, '73, and '74 seasons?

.424, .420, .422, and .425.

[Hondo]

Well, here is my all-time Top-10...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Bird


So, it depends on where you place Kareem I guess.

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
6. Kobe, with Hakeem and Bird right there.

That;s really interesting. As a lifelong Celtics fan, stretching back to the late 70's, I find it hard seeing Russ at number 1. He was too Zo Mourning for me to put him in at number 1. My top 10 looks a little like this:
1. Abdul-Jabbar
2. Jordan
3. Chamberlain
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Johnson
7. O'Neal
8. Duncan
9. Bryant
10. Olajuwon/ Robertson/ Moses Malone

[NumberSix]

Kobe

[jlauber]

That;s really interesting. As a lifelong Celtics fan, stretching back to the late 70's, I find it hard seeing Russ at number 1. He was too Zo Mourning for me to put him in at number 1. My top 10 looks a little like this:
1. Abdul-Jabbar
2. Jordan
3. Chamberlain
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Johnson
7. O'Neal
8. Duncan
9. Bryant
10. Olajuwon/ Robertson/ Moses Malone

I think that those 12, with West perhaps, are the general consensus for Top-13 in NBA history. Some might argue Mikan, but my problem with his place was that he was dominant before the 24 second clock (and really before the great Black players.) Of course, the order will change in most discussions, but those 13 are pretty much set in stone.

[millwad]

Chamberlain (and Shaq) MADE FTs. Wilt MADE over 600 more FTs in four less years than Hakeem.

Again this crap, yes, he made FT's but he did it with pathetic %. He missed most FT's by far and he is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time.

[jlauber]

Again this crap, yes, he made FT's but he did it with pathetic %. He missed most FT's by far and he is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time.

I have covered this STUPID response MANY times. Chamberlain's TEAMs benefitted from Wilt's FT shooting. EVERYONE of his TEAMS were among the leaders in FTAs, year-after-year. His '67 Sixers were MILES ahead of the league. And how about this...his 68-69 Lakers LED the league in FTAs. However, he was injured in game nine of the 69-70 season, and missed nearly the entire season. The result? LA finished ELEVENTH out of 14 teams in FTAs. THEN, he came back in the post-season, and the result? In the Finals, the Lakers probably shot nearly TWICE as many FTs as did the Knicks.

Chamberlain (and Shaq) probably had, BY FAR, the most "and-one's" in NBA history. On top of that, they not only got opposing centers in foul trouble, but ENTIRE teams in foul trouble...which resulted in more "unguarded" baskets for teammates, because either opposing players were in foul trouble, or they had an inferior bench player guarding them. And, of course, he got his team's into the "bonus" situation sooner, which resulted in MORE FTAs.

[millwad]

I have covered this STUPID response MANY times. Chamberlain's TEAMs benefitted from Wilt's FT shooting. EVERYONE of his TEAMS were among the leaders in FTAs, year-after-year. His '67 Sixers were MILES ahead of the league. And how about this...his 68-69 Lakers LED the league in FTAs. However, he was injured in game nine of the 69-70 season, and missed nearly the entire season. The result? LA finished ELEVENTH out of 14 teams in FTAs. THEN, he came back in the post-season, and the result? In the Finals, the Lakers probably shot nearly TWICE as many FTs as did the Knicks.

Chamberlain (and Shaq) probably had, BY FAR, the most "and-one's" in NBA history. On top of that, they not only got opposing centers in foul trouble, but ENTIRE teams in foul trouble...which resulted in more "unguarded" baskets for teammates, because either opposing players were in foul trouble, or they had an inferior bench player guarding them. And, of course, he got his team's into the "bonus" situation sooner, which resulted in MORE FTAs.


Which still doesn't change the freaking fact that he was one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time. I'm not talking about anything but the fact that he was a terrible FT-shooter and saying "Oh, but he made a ton of FT's" doesn't mean crap when he missed the same amount of FT's.

That's like someone who takes alot of FGA attempts with crappy FG% and then someone excuses him by saying that he still made a lot of shots during his career.

Wilt to this date is one of the worst FT-shooters of ALL-TIME, PERIOD!

[jlauber]

Which still doesn't change the freaking fact that he was one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time. I'm not talking about anything but the fact that he was a terrible FT-shooter and saying "Oh, but he made a ton of FT's" doesn't mean crap when he missed the same amount of FT's.

That's like someone who takes alot of FGA attempts with crappy FG% and then someone excuses him by saying that he still made a lot of shots during his career.

Wilt to this date is one of the worst FT-shooters of ALL-TIME, PERIOD!

There is a HUGE difference in taking FGAs and FTAs. A FGA is a shot. A FTA is the RESULT of a PLAY. Chamberlain stuffing a shot while a defender was trying to deliberately foul him before that shot...is a BONUS. And getting team's in the PENALTY much earlier is a BENEFIT for the ENTIRE team...for a VARIETY of reasons.

BTW, Chamberlain holds the record for FTS MADE in a game (28, in a game in which he went 28-32), and his 835 MADE in his 61-62 season is the SECOND HIGHEST SEASON in NBA history (only Jerry West's 840 in '66 is ahead of him.) AND, once again, Chamberlain currently ranks 14th in NBA history, in FTs MADE. He MADE 600 more, in FOUR less seasons, than Hakeem. And, in roughly the same number of years, he MADE 2000 MORE than Bird did in his career.

[magnax1]

Duncan, Garnett, Hakeem and Robinson come to mind.

[millwad]

There is a HUGE difference in taking FGAs and FTAs. A FGA is a shot. A FTA is the RESULT of a PLAY. Chamberlain stuffing a shot while a defender was trying to deliberately foul him before that shot...is a BONUS. And getting team's in the PENALTY much earlier is a BENEFIT for the ENTIRE team...for a VARIETY of reasons.

Wow, good that you told me that, I didn't know that...

BTW, Chamberlain holds the record for FTS MADE in a game (28, in a game in which he went 28-32), and his 835 MADE in his 61-62 season is the SECOND HIGHEST SEASON in NBA history (only Jerry West's 840 in '66 is ahead of him.) AND, once again, Chamberlain currently ranks 14th in NBA history, in FTs MADE. He MADE 600 more, in FOUR less seasons, than Hakeem. And, in roughly the same number of years, he MADE 2000 MORE than Bird did in his career.

I don't give a crap about Wilt's record he achieved in one game, the man over his career was one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time, why the hell is that so hard to get? He was a horrible FT-shooter.

And why are you bringing up Hakeem? Are you 5 years old, seriously? "Oh, you diss my favourite player so I have to get you in some way".. Grow up, and btw, Hakeem was WAY BETTER than Wilt was from the line, not even close.

Yeah, he made more FT's than Hakeem and Bird but he shot way more FT's on MUCH LOWER FT% and he missed most FT's in league HISTORY..

Wilt from the FT-line is equal to crap.

[tpols]

So what you are saying is only big men can have an impact on defense?
No.

Only big men can have a defensive impact that can match their offense[given that they are superstars].

Big men advantages over swingmen:
-huge advantage in defensive impact

Swingmen advantages over big men:
-better in the clutch

One has a defensive advantage and the other an offensive.

[tpols]

Duncan, Garnett, Hakeem and Robinson come to mind.
Damn bro.. you stealin my list.:cheers:

[jlauber]

I don't give a crap about Wilt's record he achieved in one game, the man over his career was one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time, why the hell is that so hard to get? He was a horrible FT-shooter.

And why are you bringing up Hakeem? Are you 5 years old, seriously? "Oh, you diss my favourite player so I have to get you in some way".. Grow up, and btw, Hakeem was WAY BETTER than Wilt was from the line, not even close.

Yeah, he made more FT's than Hakeem and Bird but he shot way more FT's on MUCH LOWER FT% and he missed most FT's in league HISTORY..

Wilt from the FT-line is equal to crap.

Once again...there were VERY FEW players, in NBA HISTORY, who had the IMPACT from the FT line that Chamberlain did. He POUNDED opposing teams from the line. AND, in doing so, he allowed his teammates to score much more from the FT line, as well.

[magnax1]

Damn bro.. you stealin my list.:cheers:
Yeah, they definitely seemed like the obvious choices.


No.

Only big men can have a defensive impact that can match their offense[given that they are superstars].

Big men advantages over swingmen:
-huge advantage in defensive impact

Swingmen advantages over big men:
-better in the clutch

One has a defensive advantage and the other an offensive.

I mostly agree, but I think there are exceptions. Jordan wasn't balanced in the sense that he was the best offensive player, and obviously isn't the best defender ever. However, he made the impact of a lot of DPOTY level bigs, because he was a legitimate rim protector, created havoc by running around doubling and caused tons of turnovers. His only issue was that he also gave up some points because he gambled way to much when he did this and really ended up playing little one on one defense because of his roaming, which caused mismatches.
Anyway, my point was that there are some defensive wings who can do the same damage as defensive bigs. Usually they're super athletes like Jordan, but Bowen could have a DPOTY impact if he was guarding a superstar perimeter player. I'd agree that Perimeter guys that make that impact are extremely rare though.
Also I just wanted to say this to the people talking about Magic. He was among the worst defenders in the league. In no way was he balanced.... at all....

[LastEpisode]

Jordan.. Beast on offense and defense..

[EnoughSaid]

Hakeem. A monster on defense and arguably the best defensive center of all time, and the best post player of all time. Sounds balanced to me.

[jlauber]

How many other players have been considered the best defensive player in the league at times in their careers; have led the NBA in scoring; have led the NBA in rebounding; have led the league in FG%; led the NBA in FTs MADE in a season; and led the league in assists in a season? In fact, how many players have been considered the best defensive player in the league in seasons, as well as having the highest scoring season in NBA history; the highest rebounding season in NBA history; the highest FG% season in NBA history; the second most FTS MADE in a season in NBA history; and led the league in assists?

[chips93]

For those that see value in individual Defensive Ratings (which were begun in the 73-74 season...and AFTER Chamberlain and Russell retired)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_season.html

Kareem just blows Hakeem away.


how is defensive rating calculated?

[millwad]

How many other players have been considered the best defensive player in the league at times in their careers; have led the NBA in scoring; have led the NBA in rebounding; have led the league in FG%; led the NBA in FTs MADE in a season; and led the league in assists in a season? In fact, how many players have been considered the best defensive player in the league in seasons, as well as having the highest scoring season in NBA history; the highest rebounding season in NBA history; the highest FG% season in NBA history; the second most FTS MADE in a season in NBA history; and led the league in assists?

He played in a league with 9 teams and with less competition, the only top 10 center he faced in his prime was Bill Russell.

And stop spam about his FT-shooting, Wilt to this date is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time, it's not even funny anymore.

[millwad]

Once again...there were VERY FEW players, in NBA HISTORY, who had the IMPACT from the FT line that Chamberlain did. He POUNDED opposing teams from the line. AND, in doing so, he allowed his teammates to score much more from the FT line, as well.

Once again, what you just wrote ain't what I'm talking about. I'm only talking about his skills from the FT-line and to this date he is one of the worst of all-time from the charity stripe so all the excuses you put up, quit them, it doesn't make him a better FT-shooter..

[jlauber]

He played in a league with 9 teams and with less competition, the only top 10 center he faced in his prime was Bill Russell.

And stop spam about his FT-shooting, Wilt to this date is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time, it's not even funny anymore.

Chamberlain played in leagues that ranged from eight in '60 and '61, to nine from '62 to '66, to ten in '67, to 12 in '68, to 14 in '69, and 17 by the time he retired.

As for his "prime", just what is your definition of his "prime?" In his LAST season he LED the NBA in rebounding, was voted first team all-defense (over the likes of Thurmond, Cowens, Hayes, Lanier, Unseld, Reed, and Kareem...ALL among the greatest DEFENSIVE centers of all-time), AND, he shot .727 from the field...all while taking his Laker team to a 60-22 record and a trip to the Finals, where they lost four close games (all decided in the last minute) to a NY team that had SIX HOFers (and BTW, he averaged 22.5 rpg over the course of his 17 post-season games, and in 47.1 mpg..in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg.)

BTW, how good were those defensive centers I just mentioned?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_season.html

Hayes, Unseld, and Cowens all had a higher CAREER rating than Hakeem, AND, Hayes, Cowens, Lanier, Unseld, Thurmond, and Kareem all had higher PEAKS than Hakeem. And, keep in mind that that defensive rating was not established until the '73-74 season, and AFTER Wilt and Russell retired.


Or, perhaps you are referring to a "scoring" prime Chamberlain, who averaged 40 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED...and against the likes Reed, Bellamy, Beaty, Embry, Thurmond and Russell. And he was scoring that 40 ppg on shooting that was near 100 points higher than the league average in FG%, too. Of course, just because he cut back his scoring after the '66 season, didn't mean that he couldn't score. He put up the league highs in scoing in each season from '67 thru '69 (including THREE games of 60+ points), and, at the start of the '70 season, when his new coach asked him to score, he was averaging 32.2 ppg on 60% shooting in his first nine games, when he went down with a devastating knee injury.

Of course, he was the game's greatest rebounder his ENTIRE career, as well as the most efficient. He played in 29 post-season series, and was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of them. As for his competition? Reed, Bellamy, Lovellette, Embry, Thurmond, Unseld, Cowens, Lanier, Hayes, Lucas, Russell, and Kareem...ALL in the HOF. And he was outplaying them all even into his last season.

[chips93]

yo jlauber, how do they calculate defensive rating? just wondering.

[jlauber]

yo jlauber, how do they calculate defensive rating? just wondering.

I'm no expert on it, but here is a link...

http://www.basketballgeek.com/2009/10/30/individual-defensive-efficiency-ratings-extracted-from-play-by-play-data/

[chips93]

I'm no expert on it, but here is a link...

http://www.basketballgeek.com/2009/10/30/individual-defensive-efficiency-ratings-extracted-from-play-by-play-data/


thanks man

[Pointguard]

Which still doesn't change the freaking fact that he was one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time. I'm not talking about anything but the fact that he was a terrible FT-shooter and saying "Oh, but he made a ton of FT's" doesn't mean crap when he missed the same amount of FT's.

That's like someone who takes alot of FGA attempts with crappy FG% and then someone excuses him by saying that he still made a lot of shots during his career.

Wilt to this date is one of the worst FT-shooters of ALL-TIME, PERIOD!

LOL, it really is time for you to stop with the free throw thing. Wilt's presence at the free throw line caused a lot of advantages: He got teams in the penalty, teams softened their defense because of the penalty, Wilt created extra shots because of the penalty, got other guys extra shots because of the penalty, Wilt made a lot of "and ones," and was likely the top three point maker back then, I believe it was two shots to make three back then so effectively his makes were at a higher percentage than guys today. So when the effective free thow stat comes out he's going to be in the higher 70s and at the top of game changing strategies from the free throw line. Believe me the stat is coming because people here overuse TS% which is a much weaker stat strategically than what I just mentioned above.

I mean a GM is estatic to have great free throw shooters like Meschery and Arizin in at the end of quarters because of Wilt's presence at the foul line. True it could have been better but relative to league average he wasn't as bad as Shaq's free throw shooting, which rarely gets mentioned. Strategicallly, his presence created a whole different option to win the game. And teams in those days played quanitity over quality of shots anyway. His presence at the line was a strength in one way despite being percentage wise poor.

[jlauber]

LOL, it really is time for you to stop with the free throw thing. Wilt's presence at the free throw line caused a lot of advantages: He got teams in the penalty, teams softened their defense because of the penalty, Wilt created extra shots because of the penalty, got other guys extra shots because of the penalty, Wilt made a lot of "and ones," and was likely the top three point maker back then, I believe it was two shots to make three back then so effectively his makes were at a higher percentage than guys today. So when the effective free thow stat comes out he's going to be in the higher 70s and at the top of game changing strategies from the free throw line. Believe me the stat is coming because people here overuse TS% which is a much weaker stat strategically than what I just mentioned above.

I mean a GM is estatic to have great free throw shooters like Meschery and Arizin in at the end of quarters because of Wilt's presence at the foul line. True it could have been better but relative to league average he wasn't as bad as Shaq's free throw shooting, which rarely gets mentioned. Strategicallly, his presence created a whole different option to win the game. And teams in those days played quanitity over quality of shots anyway. His presence at the line was a strength in one way despite being percentage wise poor.

Great post.

Look, Wilt was not a good FT shooter. That is common knowledge (although he was not bad in his early NBA seasons.) BUT, those that make it out as a blatant weakness need to understand his true IMPACT at the line. He was not going 0-3 at the line in his games. At his peak, he was shooting 12-20. And I feel very confident that no player had more 20+ FTA games than Chamberlain (in fact, I don't think that it would even be close.) Even in his bad games he was probably going 7-20.

And, good point about Wilt's "effective FT%." Back then players had 3-to-make-2's and 2's-to-make-1's (and yes, they also had single shot fouls, too.) So, a 2-3, while an actual 67%, would have effectively been 100%, and a 1-3, while an actual 33%, would have been 50%.

BTW, another great point about Wilt's TS%'s. They were in fact DISTORTED, because of the very fact you just presented. While Wilt's ACTUAL FT% may have been .511 over the course of his career, it would truly be a great question as to what his "Effective FT%", added to his ACTUAL FG%'s would have been? It would certainly have been CONSIDERABLY higher. So, just a brilliant point about how absurd TS% is, at least in Wilt's case.

And, once again, Chamberlain's FT shooting affected more than just his own numbers. Teammates got easier baskets because of opposing players being in foul trouble, and, of course, they also got more FT opportunities because of earlier penalties.

[Rnbizzle]

I'd say Lebron and Wade are up there with the rest of those guys you all listed. Just keeping it real.

[DixieNourmous]

Magic Johnson

Played all positions and excelled at them all

[Harison]

Magic Johnson

Played all positions and excelled at them all
Balanced player also assumes defense, and Magic wasnt anywhere near as elite on D as his was in O.

[az00m]

Great post. It's true that Jordan was a very mediocre shooter outside 18 feet and obviously he was terrible from three. Not to mention his mediocre handles.

I'd definitely say prime Kobe. In terms of technical proficiency, he was pretty much perfect.

funny thing is theyb oth suck behind the arc in the playoffs.

lawl

[OldSchoolBBall]

funny thing is theyb oth suck behind the arc in the playoffs.

lawl

Jordan's 3FG% in the playoffs:

1991 - 38.5% *normal line
1992 - 38.6% *normal line
1993 - 38.9% *normal line (on nearly 4 threes per game)
1995 - 36.7%
1996 - 40.3%

So yeah...no.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm not sure there was ever a player that was equally as great on offense and defense.

You hear fans of respective players say, "Well, if X focused on defense, then X would be just as good or better than Y, but it's just that he has to score and carry the load on offense." Well, then they can't possibly be equally as great on offense and defense. "Most people" value the offense more than any defense they play anyway. For instance, all those people who wanted to "Be Like Mike" weren't talking about his defense.

[Sampsonsimpson]

Jordan
Oscar
Lebron
Pippen
Hakeem

[jlauber]

You hear fans of respective players say, "Well, if X focused on defense, then X would be just as good or better than Y, but it's just that he has to score and carry the load on offense." Well, then they can't possibly be equally as great on offense and defense. "Most people" value the offense more than any defense they play anyway. For instance, all those people who wanted to "Be Like Mike" weren't talking about his defense.

I think playing defense is the constant, though. Depending on the surrounding personnel, offensive contributions can vary. However, the great defenders play defense as close to 100% of the time, as they can.

[jlip]

Regarding Kareem's defense, how about the Bucks FG% against in his '71, '72, '73, and '74 seasons?

.424, .420, .422, and .425.

Also, for the bulk of the 70's Kareem was perennially a top 5 scorer, rebounder, and shot blocker (after they were counted in '74) all at the same time. It's surprising not to see his name a little more in this thread.

[jlauber]

Also, for the bulk of the 70's Kareem was perennially a top 5 scorer, rebounder, and shot blocker (after they were counted in '74) all at the same time. It's surprising not to see his name a little more in this thread.

He was also a very good passer, as well. He was routinely putting up 4-5 apg in the 70's. His defense is probably under-rated because he played 20 years, and for the bulk of the last half, he was no longer as physically gifted. From '82 on he was average, at best, in rebounding and blocked shots. Still, he was among the BEST players in the league even at age 38, and a decent player in his last three years.

It's too bad we don't have the Defensive Rating's for the years before the 73-74 seasons. Given the fact that his 73-74 season ranks EIGHTH all-time, there is a pretty good chance his '70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons were, at the very least, as great.

[Pointguard]

You hear fans of respective players say, "Well, if X focused on defense, then X would be just as good or better than Y, but it's just that he has to score and carry the load on offense." Well, then they can't possibly be equally as great on offense and defense. "Most people" value the offense more than any defense they play anyway. For instance, all those people who wanted to "Be Like Mike" weren't talking about his defense.

Sidney Moncrief.

[the_wise_one]

magic
oscar

Magic's defense is atrocious, worse than Adam Morrison's.

[gengiskhan]

Most balanced in the truest sense (POs too):

Jordan
Hakeem
Drexler

Fakers offensively or Defensively:

Kobe: Offense is great. Defense is clearly a suspect against good offensive teams & in POs. Kobe cannot guard PGs & quicker SGs particularly in POs.
Pippen: Defense is great. Offense is a suspect as he often disappear in 4th Q & Clutch time specially in POs & let to too much MJ dependence. Pips outside Jumper was always a suspect.

[Smoke117]

Most balanced in the truest sense (POs too):

Jordan
Hakeem
Drexler

Fakers offensively or Defensively:

Kobe: Offense is great. Defense is clearly a suspect against good offensive teams & in POs. Kobe cannot guard PGs & quicker SGs particularly in POs.
Pippen: Defense is great. Offense is a suspect as he often disappear in 4th Q & Clutch time specially in POs & let to too much MJ dependence. Pips outside Jumper was always a suspect.

Drexler was nothing to call home about defensively.