Why do some People call MJ the greatest defensive player ever?

[Big#50]

He isnt even top ten. He is barely top ten as a wing defender.

[zay_24]

Kobe dropped 60 on this clown:roll:

[Teanett]

who calls him that?

[Nick Young]

cus people are idiots, even the average Bron Bron finished second in defensive player of the year and has all defensive first teams:lol :lol :lol :lol

Lebron a better defender than guys like Marion, Battier, Sefelosha, Batum, Wallace, Jackson:lol :lol :lol :lol


I know it's hilarious but that's what the NBA tried to market Lebron as, and that's how they have marketed Jordan.

[Manslavedave11]

Ya, I definitely don't agree with calling him the greatest defensive player ever! He was a great defender and arguably the greatest player ever but for this title I would have to lean toward Bill Russell.

[Big#50]

who calls him that?
Millions of people. Media. Come on.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He isnt even top ten. He is barely top ten as a wing defender.

You're insane. Only Pippen has a case over him as a wing defender in terms of overall defensive impact on games. Some others (e.g., Moncrief, Cooper) may have been equal or possibly slightly superior to MJ in terms of man-to-man defense (and even then, not when he focused inl their effort was generally more consistent, however), but none were even in his universe as far as team/help defense is concerned, and team/help defense is the largest component of defensive impact.

Pound for pound, and ignoring positional differences in defensive impact (that is, looking only as how large a defensive impact each player had relative to the maximum possible defensive impact for their position), Jordan does have a case as the best defender ever. But obviously the actual list is dominated by big men, because of their inherent advantages defensively. No perimeter player except for Pippen has any case to be above Jordan on that list, however.

[ThaRegul8r]

He isn't.

This is another case in which it's irrelevant what "some people" say.

[Teanett]

Millions of people. Media. Come on.

he has 1 dpoy, rodman, olajuwon, mourning have 2 each...
nothing wrong with the media there.

[SuperPippen]

I've never come across any form of media or anyone calling MJ the greatest defensive player ever. The greatest overall player ever? Sure. But not greatest defensively.

As a perimeter player, he's in the top 10 along with players like GP, Frazier, Pip, Bowen, etc.

I don't think I would put him in the top 10 overall, because that list is inhabited by centers, whose defensive impact far outweighs the the defensive impact of perimeter players.

[Teanett]

Pound for pound, and ignoring positional differences in defensive impact (that is, looking only as how large a defensive impact each player had relative to the maximum possible defensive impact for their position), Jordan does have a case as the best defender ever. But obviously the actual list is dominated by big men, because of their inherent advantages defensively. No perimeter player except for Pippen has any case to be above Jordan on that list, however.

i agree with this.

[knickswin]

because somehow people find a way to overrate Michael Jordan. I remember getting in a fight with one of my friends (a Bulls fan) because I said Kobe, TMac, and Carmelo all have better handle than he ever did. It's like it's not enough that he was the greatest player of all time, he has to also be the greatest at every individual aspect of the game . . .

[Big#50]

I remember Harper being a better defender on the second three peat Bulls.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I remember Harper being a better defender on the second three peat Bulls.

Then you remember very, very wrong. That, or you have no clue as to how to judge defensive impact.

[ThaRegul8r]

I've never come across any form of media or anyone calling MJ the greatest defensive player ever. The greatest overall player ever? Sure. But not greatest defensively.

I recall one sportswriter asserting Jordan was the greatest defensive player ever, and another publication listing him as #2 behind Russell. I don't doubt that others may have made claims that Jordan was the greatest defensive player ever, considering that of course he was the best at absolutely every single aspect pertaining to basketball.

[Big#50]

Then you remember very, very wrong. That, or you have no clue as to how to judge defensive impact.
I remember Jordan making all nba defensive first teams based on his name.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I remember Jordan making all nba defensive first teams based on his name.

And again, you remember clearly wrong or have no concept of how to judge defensive impact. There was no guard besides Payton during the second three-peat who had a greater defensive impact on games. Only one or two guards had a comparable or perhaps slightly superior one-on-one defenders (most notably Eddie Jones), but none were in the same galaxy as MJ as a team/help defender. And again, team/help defense is the largest component of defensive impact. You're clearly clueless and/or have an agenda.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The greatest defensive players in general are big men, and that's why they've dominated the DPOY award, and on a list of greatest defensive players ever. I often think of big men first(Russell, Thurmond, late 60's/early 70's Wilt, Hakeem, Eaton, Robinson, Duncan, Wallace, Howard ect.)

But when discussing perimeter players, Jordan is one of the best ever, and I agree with OldSchool that you have to look at overall defensive impact and not just man to man defense(where the impact depends more on the team you're facing).

Early 90's Jordan was amazing defensively and I've always been particularly impressed with how well he played on that end in 1990 considering how much he did offensively(34 ppg/6 apg)

Here's just an average regular season game(and play like this wasn't uncommon for Jordan at the time).

Embarrasses Vinnie Johnson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeF74F27guA#t=6m33s

Jordan was all over Dumars and forces the turnover. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzFoNufM7os&feature=related#t=11m57s

Aguirre tries to post him up and Jordan strips him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAeIMqDF60&feature=related#t=5m48s

Helped trap Isiah and force him into a big turnover. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FryDvgAmmsw#t=8m43s

Because he was looking to help out a lot, he could get burned by shooters from time to time, but most defensive players have a flaw that can be exposed.

[cteach111]

I don't recall anyone calling him the greatest defensive player ever..

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

because somehow people find a way to overrate Michael Jordan. I remember getting in a fight with one of my friends (a Bulls fan) because I said Kobe, TMac, and Carmelo all have better handle than he ever did. It's like it's not enough that he was the greatest player of all time, he has to also be the greatest at every individual aspect of the game . . .

THIS x 1000

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ the OP saying Jordan was "barely top 10" as a perimeter defender. No perimeter defender save for Pippen had the type of defensive impact on games that Jordan did in his prime. Here's one game from the 1990 playoffs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dut0RXe-UB4

Take note of how many balls Jordan got his hands on for steals/blocks/deflections. 1990 or '91 was MJ's defensive peak, and his disruption and defensive dominance was on full display during this series and the 1990 series vs. Detroit. Just devastating defensively. It's a joke that people try to act like certain players today are on his level defensively. THIS IS ONE GAME, PEOPLE. He makes more defensive plays and hustles more here than others make in 5 games. But yeah, "barely top 10." :facepalm :rolleyes:

And regarding the second three-peat, all anyone has to do is watch the 1998 ECF vs. Indiana to see that Jordan's defensive impact was still top 2 at the guard spot even at age 35. Shutting down Miller in crucial 4th quarters, making game saving steals/blocks, breaking up 3-on-1 fastbreaks singlehandedly, getting his hands on a ton of balls, shutting down Jalen Rose every time he tried to attack him, blanketing the lightning quick Travis Best when Best was destroying the Chicago PG's with his penetration etc. Watch that series and then get back to me about MJ's defensive impact during the second three-peat. And this was 35 year old Jordan, here.

I wish this game vs. Toronto from the '98 season was up in its entirety (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199803220TOR.html). Jordan completely disrupts Toronto's post offense all game from both the weak and strong side, records 5 steals/3 blocks (and gets his hands on a number of balls besides those for TO's, to break up plays or cause rushed/bad shots etc.), and holds Chauncey Billups to like 2-10 shooting when he was on him. His defensive impact was monstrous. 35 years old. But yeah, "barely top 10 among perimeter defenders." :oldlol:

[B-Low]

Cuz Jordan's the best at everything duh. I saw a thread on here before saying he was the GOAT at palming the ball. One would assume that anyone with bigger hands than him would be better, but nope, Jordan could palm the ball better than anyone ever.

[knickswin]

Cuz Jordan's the best at everything duh. I saw a thread on here before saying he was the GOAT at palming the ball. One would assume that anyone with bigger hands than him would be better, but nope, Jordan could palm the ball better than anyone ever.

that scrub Shaq had nothing on him in that department.

[Big164]

At the guard position he is the besT.

Steals, blocks, team d and man to man, icant think of any guard that trumps him in all 4 categories. You have to go taller to find a better defender.

[knickscity]

He isnt even top ten. He is barely top ten as a wing defender.
You trying to start trouble, nobody is saying that.

[Asukal]

Another agenda driven thread...... :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Jordan is not the greatest defensive player of all time but your favorite player isn't in his level defensively. :rockon:

[bizil]

Clearly MJ is a top ten perimeter defender. He can defend PG, SG, and SF all great. But their is nothing like a great defensive big man that can defend the paint. That alters so much shit! That's why guys like Russell, Mutumbo, Howard, and Hakeem had such a huge impact on that end. It allows perimeter guys to gamble more and makes life easier.

[asdf1990]

MJ got overrated on the defensive end but not as much as kobe. Kobe has been getting bs first team defense for 5 straight years.

[Fatal9]

Because MJ needs to be the greatest at everything he did or his stans get restless.

[juju151111]

Because MJ needs to be the greatest at everything he did or his stans get restless.
Name 10 perimeter defenders who are better?

[ThaSwagg3r]

Name 10 perimeter defenders who are better?
Being a top 10 great is not the same as being the all-time great....

[NugzHeat3]

lol @ the OP saying Jordan was "barely top 10" as a perimeter defender. No perimeter defender save for Pippen had the type of defensive impact on games that Jordan did in his prime. Here's one game from the 1990 playoffs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dut0RXe-UB4

Take note of how many balls Jordan got his hands on for steals/blocks/deflections. 1990 or '91 was MJ's defensive peak, and his disruption and defensive dominance was on full display during this series and the 1990 series vs. Detroit. Just devastating defensively. It's a joke that people try to act like certain players today are on his level defensively. THIS IS ONE GAME, PEOPLE. He makes more defensive plays and hustles more here than others make in 5 games. But yeah, "barely top 10." :facepalm :rolleyes:

And regarding the second three-peat, all anyone has to do is watch the 1998 ECF vs. Indiana to see that Jordan's defensive impact was still top 2 at the guard spot even at age 35. Shutting down Miller in crucial 4th quarters, making game saving steals/blocks, breaking up 3-on-1 fastbreaks singlehandedly, getting his hands on a ton of balls, shutting down Jalen Rose every time he tried to attack him, blanketing the lightning quick Travis Best when Best was destroying the Chicago PG's with his penetration etc. Watch that series and then get back to me about MJ's defensive impact during the second three-peat. And this was 35 year old Jordan, here.

I wish this game vs. Toronto from the '98 season was up in its entirety (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199803220TOR.html). Jordan completely disrupts Toronto's post offense all game from both the weak and strong side, records 5 steals/3 blocks (and gets his hands on a number of balls besides those for TO's, to break up plays or cause rushed/bad shots etc.), and holds Chauncey Billups to like 2-10 shooting when he was on him. His defensive impact was monstrous. 35 years old. But yeah, "barely top 10 among perimeter defenders." :oldlol:
:oldlol: :oldlol:

You definitely had a mental breakdown of some sort reading this thread.

[Leviathon1121]

I think I can count on one hand the number of times in all my years of reading forums that I have seen someone try to claim that Jordan is the greatest defensive player of all time.

Of course, leave it to Fatal9 and the Kobe brigade to completely agree with the OP and act like it is a daily occurrence around here...:rolleyes:

[Dave3]

He isnt even top ten. He is barely top ten as a wing defender.
If you're going to make a claim like that you should probably name the 10 better wing defenders. Even if you say barely, then you have to name 8 or 9 better wing defenders. I'd like to see that list...
Oh, and not once have I seen him called the best defender ever BTW.

[Jacks3]

loco going crazy.

10 better defenders:
moncrief
b. jones
pippen
payton
artest
bowen
battier
dumars
cooper
robertson

[StarJordan]

^most of those guys aren't better defenders than jordan at all...michael jordan is pretty high alltime in steals and he's probably one of 2-3 guys who can have lots of steals (3+) and multiple blocks in same game and repeat it......and .if there was one stop needed....just one defensive stop for the championship....you put jordan on the ballhandler and chancers are jordan will stop him or deflect the ball or force a turnover some other way.

[andgar923]

I mean... it aint as if MJ wasn't revered/feared by his contemporaries and hailed by them as the best defender. And it also isn't as if he doesn't have the numbers to back up any argument made in his favor, or the accolades for that matter.

Magic, Barkley, coaches, and an array of other past greats have all mentioned that MJ was a force defensively (not sure if I can quote them saying that he was THE best defensively), but it isn't too far fetched at all to imply that he was the best.

And as Oldschool mentioned, there's various aspects to playing defense.

When every aspect is considered, MJ does have a very strong case as being the best defender of all time.

He can defend the perimeter like a point guard, and disrupt the offense like a big man at elite levels, possibly like no other player. And once again... the defensive rating stats, individual stats, and accolades all make a strong case in MJ's favor.

[Big#50]

^most of those guys aren't better defenders than jordan at all...michael jordan is pretty high alltime in steals and he's probably one of 2-3 guys who can have lots of steals (3+) and multiple blocks in same game and repeat it......and .if there was one stop needed....just one defensive stop for the championship....you put jordan on the ballhandler and chancers are jordan will stop him or deflect the ball or force a turnover some other way.
LoL Stans gone crazy. Give me Bowen in that scenario.

[EricForman]

I've never heard anyone call Jordan the "greatest defender ever", and he wasn't. But he was one of the best perimeter defenders ever, definitely in the top ten.

Anyway, this is another troll thread, and the only response is: "he's still a better defender than Kobe"

[Odinn]

Jordan top3 perimeter defender ever. Nothing wrong with this imo.

[PHILA]

Magic, Barkley, coaches, and an array of other past greats have all mentioned that MJ was a force defensively (not sure if I can quote them saying that he was THE best defensively), but it isn't too far fetched at all to imply that he was the best.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u40J0ttZy1U#t=4m24s

[Big#50]

I mean... it aint as if MJ wasn't revered/feared by his contemporaries and hailed by them as the best defender. And it also isn't as if he doesn't have the numbers to back up any argument made in his favor, or the accolades for that matter.

Magic, Barkley, coaches, and an array of other past greats have all mentioned that MJ was a force defensively (not sure if I can quote them saying that he was THE best defensively), but it isn't too far fetched at all to imply that he was the best.

And as Oldschool mentioned, there's various aspects to playing defense.

When every aspect is considered, MJ does have a very strong case as being the best defender of all time.

He can defend the perimeter like a point guard, and disrupt the offense like a big man at elite levels, possibly like no other player. And once again... the defensive rating stats, individual stats, and accolades all make a strong case in MJ's favor.
Like a big man? Stop. Just freaking stop.

[andgar923]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u40J0ttZy1U#t=4m24s

Aside from this, I've seen other interviews by Chuck and others that echo the same sentiment. I'm sure others can post them since I'm not great at remembering where I saw/read them, but they're out there.

[andgar923]

Like a big man? Stop. Just freaking stop.

YES disrupt offense like a big man. Because the offense was always alert of where he was which disrupted their game plan. If he didn't come up with a steal, he'd reflect the ball, take a charge or block it. I've seen MJ stop the perimeter on one side of the court, then disrupt the offense the next play on an entirely different side inside the paint. He was just that quick at reading and reacting. And as it has been stated, the stats back this up as MJ usually ranks as high as most big men in various defensive ratings and productivity statistics. This isn't some shit that I or others made up, this shit is on tape and backed up by statistical data as well as those that are involved in the game.

[Jacks3]

Jordan stans. :roll: :roll: :roll:

The Bulls got BETTER on defense after MJ retired the first time. You think that happens with the real G.O.A.T defenders? :roll:

[Big#50]

YES disrupt offense like a big man. Because the offense was always alert of where he was which disrupted their game plan. If he didn't come up with a steal, he'd reflect the ball, take a charge or block it. I've seen MJ stop the perimeter on one side of the court, then disrupt the offense the next play on an entirely different side inside the paint. He was just that quick at reading and reacting. And as it has been stated, the stats back this up as MJ usually ranks as high as most big men in various defensive ratings and productivity statistics. This isn't some shit that I or others made up, this shit is on tape and backed up by statistical data as well as those that are involved in the game.
****. MJ fans are worst than Kobe. Never thought of that.

[andgar923]

Just another small example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2nZ2gsnzcs&NR=1

Of course, this isn't the end all to this discussion (on either side of the argument). But this is an example of why MJ has a legit chance of being the greatest defender of all time, and why I stated that MJ's impact was also as big as a big man's.

One could assemble clips like these from almost every single game he played and the results would be nearly identical (of course with variations in effectiveness depending on which era).

[Dave3]

****. MJ fans are worst than Kobe. Never thought of that.
Was it MJ fans who gave him the DPOY award? One of the very few perimeter defenders ever to receive the award. Was it his fans that made him average 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks? You can argue all you want about his all NBA defense team selections being rewarded because of his hype, but what star hasn't had that advantage over possibly better defenders? I don't know much about MJ and won't pretend to, but even from my point of view, you don't seem like you're arguing very well.

[Pointguard]

Thee were times when teams didn't pass on the side of the court MJ was on. It takes more sophistication to judge perimeter players and their impact. People had trouble assessing KG much less a Jordan type defensively. Perimeter defenders play defense with their feet, were as most centers play it with their height. Rodman could guard centers with his feet. Pippen and KG covered more ground than most centers did and did things like prevent penetration from other players. Many centers protect the rim and can affect several other positional players shots as the rim is a great meeting place. Centers are usually at a convergence point.

[G-train]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u40J0ttZy1U#t=4m24s

LOL Jordans pals.

[G-train]

Just another small example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2nZ2gsnzcs&NR=1

Of course, this isn't the end all to this discussion (on either side of the argument). But this is an example of why MJ has a legit chance of being the greatest defender of all time, and why I stated that MJ's impact was also as big as a big man's.

One could assemble clips like these from almost every single game he played and the results would be nearly identical (of course with variations in effectiveness depending on which era).

He is not even guarding anyone. This is a combo of Bogues not shooting and and Charlotte faultering under playoff pressure.

[G-train]

Jordan was just a smart player on both ends.

He is not as good man to man as say Bruce Bowen.

But he read situations and made smart plays, and was a top 10 wing defender without a doubt.

He could also gamble due to the well drilled teams he was on and the other great defenders he played with.

[andgar923]

LOL Jordans pals.

Damn Jordan pals:

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 101.5 (6)
1990-91 NBA 101.6 (7)
1991-92 NBA 101.7 (5)
1995-96 NBA 99.6 (9)

Defensive Win Shares

1986-87 NBA 5.0 (4)
1987-88 NBA 6.1 (3)
1988-89 NBA 5.2 (5)
1990-91 NBA 5.4 (5)
1991-92 NBA 5.6 (5)
1992-93 NBA 5.2 (6)
1995-96 NBA 6.2 (2)
1997-98 NBA 5.4 (6)
Career NBA 64.1 (19)
Career 64.1 (21)

Steal Pct

1986-87 NBA 3.6 (3)
1987-88 NBA 3.9 (2)
1988-89 NBA 3.6 (4)
1989-90 NBA 3.5 (4)
1990-91 NBA 3.7 (4)
1991-92 NBA 3.0 (9)
1992-93 NBA 3.7 (3)
1995-96 NBA 3.1 (5)
Career NBA 3.1 (10)
Career 3.1 (12)

Steals

1984-85 NBA 196 (4)
1986-87 NBA 236 (2)
1987-88 NBA 259 (1)
1988-89 NBA 234 (2)
1989-90 NBA 227 (1)
1990-91 NBA 223 (3)
1991-92 NBA 182 (4)
1992-93 NBA 221 (1)
1995-96 NBA 180 (3)
Career NBA 2514 (2)
Career 2514 (2)



Jordan was the first player in NBA history to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season. He performed this feat in back-to-back seasons, making him the only player to achieve it multiple times. Hakeem Olajuwon and Scottie Pippen later achieved 200 steals and 100 blocks in one season.

Michael Jordan is #3 all time in rebounding by a guard (behind Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson).

Michael Jordan is #3 all time in steals per game and #2 all time in total steals.

Michael Jordan is #1 all time in blocks by a guard.


F*ckin MJ's pals.

[EricForman]

why the f*ck do you Jordan fans fall for this trap? NO ONE ever declared Jordan as the greatest defender ever, the OP made up a lie, just dismiss him, say "Jordan is one of the greatest though" and move the hell on. Argument over a non-issue?

[Psileas]

why the f*ck do you Jordan fans fall for this trap? NO ONE ever declared Jordan as the greatest defender ever, the OP made up a lie, just dismiss him, say "Jordan is one of the greatest though" and move the hell on. Argument over a non-issue?

Just in this very thread, you have at least one poster who thinks that Jordan has a great case. Quoting him:



When every aspect is considered, MJ does have a very strong case as being the best defender of all time.

[Nick Young]

3rd best defender on his own team

That's right I said it. It's hard to not win 6 titles when playing next to the best perimeter defender of all time and a top 5 post defender of all time.

[guy]

I get the feeling some people are just naming guys that are considered great perimeter defenders when they are ranking other perimeter defenders above Jordan, without any real reason at all. I mean, the idea that players like Artest, Battier,and Bowen were as good as Jordan defensively is just :oldlol: . Its like they can't fathom the idea that someone could be a top 5-10 player ever in both offense and defense, or that one player could be the GOAT at his position for both offense and defense. It really shouldn't be hard to fathom, when you're combining a ridiculously high basketball I.Q. with all-time great athleticism, length, and stamina. And for the people blaming it on the hype, Jordan's defense was the least hyped aspect of his game.

[Asukal]

Can we all just ignore a thread with an agenda? It would help a lot if we just stop feeding all these trolls. :confusedshrug:

[EricForman]

Just in this very thread, you have at least one poster who thinks that Jordan has a great case. Quoting him:

Yes, that's ONE Jordan homer being sucked in, the Kobe trolls do this all the time, start BS threads based on lies (like that steroid era post)

And for the record, what Jordan homers argue are closer to reality than what Kobe trolls argue. You dont think Jordan is closer to #1 perimeter defender than "not even top 10"?

Jordan's one of few guards to have won the DPOY and his steals/block numbers were insane in his younger days. I don't believe he's the GOAT perimeter defender (very few actually makes that claim) but he's definitely closer to that than what the Kobe trolls are claiming.

You wanna side with them? You really wanna sink to that level?

[andgar923]

Yes, that's ONE Jordan homer being sucked in, the Kobe trolls do this all the time, start BS threads based on lies (like that steroid era post)

And for the record, what Jordan homers argue are closer to reality than what Kobe trolls argue. You dont think Jordan is closer to #1 perimeter defender than "not even top 10"?

Jordan's one of few guards to have won the DPOY and his steals/block numbers were insane in his younger days. I don't believe he's the GOAT perimeter defender (very few actually makes that claim) but he's definitely closer to that than what the Kobe trolls are claiming.

You wanna side with them? You really wanna sink to that level?

Apparently they lack reading comprehension.

[Psileas]

Yes, that's ONE Jordan homer being sucked in, the Kobe trolls do this all the time, start BS threads based on lies (like that steroid era post)

And for the record, what Jordan homers argue are closer to reality than what Kobe trolls argue. You dont think Jordan is closer to #1 perimeter defender than "not even top 10"?

Jordan's one of few guards to have won the DPOY and his steals/block numbers were insane in his younger days. I don't believe he's the GOAT perimeter defender (very few actually makes that claim) but he's definitely closer to that than what the Kobe trolls are claiming.

You wanna side with them? You really wanna sink to that level?

I don't deal with either Jordan or Kobe homers. Both have nothing to offer me. I didn't even mention somebody here as being a homer (regardless of whether I believe he's or not) and I didn't even comment on where Jordan belongs. The comment was on whether there exist people who believe Jordan is (or has a good case of being) the GOAT defender. You claimed there is no one (and you capitalized it), but that's not the case. Obviously they are not many, but who's to say that if (at least) one person out of the 30 or so who have commented here believes so, there won't be more (maybe a few million worldwide)?

Jordan is somewhere in top-5 as a perimeter defender (including perimeter oriented SF's). My top-10 defensive players ever (regardless of position) would probably all be big men, except maybe Rodman, for having been so versatile throughout his career.

[I.R.Beast]

he's jordan he was the best at everything and it's impossible to be better than him, because the only way to be better is to have the exact same success he had as a player and then some, because that how things just are....get with it or get lost

[gengiskhan]

he's jordan he was the best at everything and it's impossible to be better than him, because the only way to be better is to have the exact same success he had as a player and then some, because that how things just are....get with it or get lost

This

100+ blks/200+ stls seasons: MJ 2, Pippen 1, Kobe ZERO, Lebron ZERO, Wade ZERO, Drexler ZERO

NBA DPOY: MJ 1, Pippen ZERO, Kobe ZERO, Lebron ZERO, Wade ZERO, Drexler ZERO

Steals Leader: MJ 3, Iverson 3, Pippen 1, Kobe ZERO, Lebron ZERO, Wade ZERO, Drexler ZERO

defensively, MJ will wipe his air jordans with that shethole called kobe easily.

[bond10]

Jordan was a top defender

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213322

[RRR3]

This

100+ blks/200+ stls seasons: MJ 2, Pippen 1, Kobe ZERO, Lebron ZERO, Wade ZERO, Drexler ZERO

NBA DPOY: MJ 1, Pippen ZERO, Kobe ZERO, Lebron ZERO, Wade ZERO, Drexler ZERO

Steals Leader: MJ 3, Iverson 3, Pippen 1, Kobe ZERO, Lebron ZERO, Wade ZERO, Drexler ZERO

defensively, MJ will wipe his air jordans with that shethole called kobe easily.

You missed the sarcasm.

[MasterDurant24]

loco going crazy.

10 better defenders:
moncrief
b. jones
pippen
payton
artest
bowen
battier
dumars
cooper
robertson
Jordan is definetly a better defender than Battier.

[PowerGlove]

THIS x 1000
That squared.


Its crazy how Jordan has to be the fastest, strongest, best looking, etc...

[OldSchoolBBall]

loco going crazy.

10 better defenders:
moncrief
b. jones
pippen
payton
artest
bowen
battier
dumars
cooper
robertson

Only Pippen is arguable and probably superior. None of the others are. Again, if we're talking STRICTLY man-to-man defense, then yes, some of those guys are comparable and possibly superior (certainly more consistent given that most were specialists). But in terms of overall defensive impact on game - changing the entire complexion of games defensively - none of them even approach Jordan except for Pippen and possibly Payton. The rest of their team/help defense isn't nearly good enough to be in the discussion with Jordan. Learn the game.

[Teanett]

Only Pippen is arguable and probably superior. None of the others are. Again, if we're talking STRICTLY man-to-man defense, then yes, some of those guys are comparable and possibly superior (certainly more consistent given that most were specialists). But in terms of overall defensive impact on game - changing the entire complexion of games defensively - none of them even approach Jordan except for Pippen and possibly Payton. The rest of their team/help defense isn't nearly good enough to be in the discussion with Jordan. Learn the game.

artest was maybe as good man-to-man but didnt cover as much ground as jordan or pippen, nor could he cover small, fast guards.
bowen, while being an excellent man defender, had the big advantage of having admiral/tim behind him.

[andgar923]

I don't deal with either Jordan or Kobe homers. Both have nothing to offer me. I didn't even mention somebody here as being a homer (regardless of whether I believe he's or not) and I didn't even comment on where Jordan belongs. The comment was on whether there exist people who believe Jordan is (or has a good case of being) the GOAT defender. You claimed there is no one (and you capitalized it), but that's not the case. Obviously they are not many, but who's to say that if (at least) one person out of the 30 or so who have commented here believes so, there won't be more (maybe a few million worldwide)?

Jordan is somewhere in top-5 as a perimeter defender (including perimeter oriented SF's). My top-10 defensive players ever (regardless of position) would probably all be big men, except maybe Rodman, for having been so versatile throughout his career.

You quoted me to try and prove your point.... but misread my comment. I never stated that he was the GOAT.

[I.R.Beast]

You missed the sarcasm.

LMAO...he sure did

[Psileas]

No, Andgar, I read what you wrote. Did you read what I wrote?


Just in this very thread, you have at least one poster who thinks that Jordan has a great case. Quoting him:


The comment was on whether there exist people who believe Jordan is (or has a good case of being) the GOAT defender.

Where did I say that you claimed Jordan was the GOAT? You did write though that he has a great case and, unless in your mind there are like 20 different candidates, that's not far from belonging to the "Jordan = GOAT defender" category (not to mention that it doesn't sound exactly convincing to say that 20 different candidates have "great cases", unless you're comparing loads of people).
Remember, people usually get ignored/laughed at if they claim that even players who are usually ranked at #7-12 All-Time (Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan...) have a great case for being GOAT. Did Jordan stand out as a defender more than these stood out as players? I don't think so.

[andgar923]

No, Andgar, I read what you wrote. Did you read what I wrote?





Where did I say that you claimed Jordan was the GOAT? You did write though that he has a great case and, unless in your mind there are like 20 different candidates, that's not far from belonging to the "Jordan = GOAT defender" category (not to mention that it doesn't sound exactly convincing to say that 20 different candidates have "great cases", unless you're comparing loads of people).
Remember, people usually get ignored/laughed at if they claim that even players who are usually ranked at #7-12 All-Time (Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan...) have a great case for being GOAT. Did Jordan stand out as a defender more than these stood out as players? I don't think so.

I stand corrected.

[StarJordan]

NBA all time steals leaders:

Jordan is #2 ahead of 'the glove', would have been #1 had he not retired...

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersSTLQuery.html?topic=4&stat=13

[Big#50]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.

[Smoke117]

He isnt even top ten. He is barely top ten as a wing defender.

He's definitely not top 10 all time. Top 10 as a wing defender? Absolutely. I have him 2nd after Pippen myself. Having said that...would I consider even Pippen top 10 ALL TIME? Probably not. The great defensive big man are just going to have more of an impact and a top 10 list is going to be full of Centers. Having said that it takes away nothing from Scottie as he is the only non C or PF to truly anchor a top notch defensive team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.

No, we're basing it on having watched him play and having a solid understanding of what exactly comprises defensive impact.

Only Pippen is arguable and probably superior. None of the others are. Again, if we're talking STRICTLY man-to-man defense, then yes, some of those guys are comparable and possibly superior (certainly more consistent given that most were specialists). But in terms of overall defensive impact on games - changing the entire complexion of games defensively - none of them even approach Jordan except for Pippen and possibly Payton. The rest of their team/help defense isn't nearly good enough to be in the discussion with Jordan. Learn the game.

[97 bulls]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.
Are you talking about man defense? Or defense as a whole? There more involved in being an all-time great defender than just man defense. And if your talking as a whole, take out cooper, bowen, artest, hell all of them. Except pippen and jordan. All the guys you mentioend were great man defenders but not much else.

[juju151111]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.
Lol MJ defense is not only based around stats. With the huge offensive load MJ still top 5 Perimeter defense ever. MJ was Dpoty and was assign to players like Isaiah,magic,clyde,hardaway,miller in playoff situation and either shut their ass down or made reduced their impact.

Lol at wat MJ did to Isaiah http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARzR8_S0mbY
Watch the 1993 knicks series to see MJ going nut on defense especially game 5.
A few highlights of MJ defensive awareness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ZrmsSUfsI In fact Mj was voted by the coaches has the best defender in 1993. Not the media the ****ing coaches.2nd 3 peat MJ took less assignments because of stamina but he still shitted on people. Guarding PGs like its a joke at 34 years old http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0lx-Is3dnE&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2A98D20B18FDB3B3

[andgar923]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.

The stats/accolades are only provided to help support our argument, not as THE main argument/reason.

[Big#50]

Are you talking about man defense? Or defense as a whole? There more involved in being an all-time great defender than just man defense. And if your talking as a whole, take out cooper, bowen, artest, hell all of them. Except pippen and jordan. All the guys you mentioend were great man defenders but not much else.
So if Bowen makes Dirk, Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade have a sub par game, that doesn't disrupt game plans? Wouldn't that **** up an entire offense? I get it, you only disrupt game plans if you get a steal or a block. You only disrupt an offense if you gamble on the passing lanes. GTFO...Jordan fans need to go jack off to Space Jam.

[B-Low]

NBA DPOY:MJ 1, Pippen ZERO, Kobe ZERO, Lebron ZERO, Wade ZERO, Drexler ZERO



one of the great injustices in NBA history honestly

[Big#50]

BTW Jordan's whole defense relied on hand checking.

[gengiskhan]

one of the great injustices in NBA history honestly

agreed sorta

BUT

as a perimeter defender Bar has been set very high by '80s MJ with blk shots & Steals for single season.

Pippen barelly made it to 100 blk shots in 1994. Hakeem rightly won DPOY that year with the supporting cast he had. Hakeem was DA BEST. Pippen was always 2nd with or without MJ on Bulls.

The reason why MJ won DPOY & set the perimeter bar too high:

1988: 100+ blks /+ 250+ steals (even better than 1987) :bowdown:

1988: Steals leader with 3.18 SPG. :bowdown:

& top of that, this guys was averaging 36 ppgs in 2 season.

1994 or 1995 Pippen didnt come close to 1988 MJ stats perimeter defense wise.

or else, 1994 or 1995, pippen would've edge Hakeem or D'Rob for DPOY.

[andgar923]

BTW Jordan's whole defense relied on hand checking.

Exactly!

[gengiskhan]

BTW Jordan's whole defense relied on hand checking.

wrong.

thats only partly true.

He played gambling anticipation defense ( always looking for steal in the passing lane

He also played lot of weak side defense (tons of weak side block shots)

[97 bulls]

So if Bowen makes Dirk, Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade have a sub par game, that doesn't disrupt game plans? Wouldn't that **** up an entire offense? I get it, you only disrupt game plans if you get a steal or a block. You only disrupt an offense if you gamble on the passing lanes. GTFO...Jordan fans need to go jack off to Space Jam.
Your right. Being able to take the opposing teams best player is invaluable. But the point is jordan and pippen did it along with being fantastic help defenders, man defenders, rebounders (for their positions), defend multiple positions, defend the post, playing passing lanes, block shots, shutting down the opposition best wing scorers, playing trap defense, full court press. There wasn't anything jordan and pippen couldn't do on defense. Rodman is a great defender cuz he could literally defend 1-5 effectively

[Dave3]

So if Bowen makes Dirk, Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade have a sub par game, that doesn't disrupt game plans? Wouldn't that **** up an entire offense? I get it, you only disrupt game plans if you get a steal or a block. You only disrupt an offense if you gamble on the passing lanes. GTFO...Jordan fans need to go jack off to Space Jam.
Kobe averages 26 ppg on 43% FG against Bowen. Slightly above his career average in volume, and slightly below in efficiency. This is also against the team defense of the Spurs. Not a very big difference at all.

LeBron averages 29 ppg and 50% FG against Bowen. Slightly above both his averages. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bowenbr01&p2=jamesle01)

Dirk averages 24 ppg on 45% (though he was guarded by Duncan more than Bowen) but you mentioned him. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bowenbr01&p2=nowitdi01)

Chris Paul averages 19 ppg on 46%. This is also including his rookie/sophomore seasons, so this is technically still above his career average in volume, and slightly below in efficiency.

Finally, Wade averages 26 ppg on 46% FG.

The same pattern for every player (except LeBron)? Higher volume than their career averages, and slight dip in efficiency (probably from having to play against the Spurs, teammates aren't as good and thus needed to show up).

But let me guess, in spite of all these stats showing the players still did their stuff, you're going to tell me "stats don't matter"

So accolades (DPOY awards and first team selections) don't matter, the praise from peers regarding defense don't matter, and stats don't matter. What does then? Only your opinion?

[Sarcastic]

one of the great injustices in NBA history honestly

Which year would you have given it to him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Defensive_Player_of_the_Year_Award

1987

[cteach111]

honestly, no one should really care for DPOY, NBA 1st awards. Actually pretty much all awards should be ignored for the most part. They're worthless.

It's not like they make a player any better. Let your eyes judge that.

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Which year would you have given it to him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Defensive_Player_of_the_Year_Award

1987

[G-train]

Pippen definately should've won in 95.

nah Mutombo actually did disrupt entire teams offensive schemes.

[Big#50]

Kobe averages 26 ppg on 43% FG against Bowen. Slightly above his career average in volume, and slightly below in efficiency. This is also against the team defense of the Spurs. Not a very big difference at all.

LeBron averages 29 ppg and 50% FG against Bowen. Slightly above both his averages. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bowenbr01&p2=jamesle01)

Dirk averages 24 ppg on 45% (though he was guarded by Duncan more than Bowen) but you mentioned him. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bowenbr01&p2=nowitdi01)

Chris Paul averages 19 ppg on 46%. This is also including his rookie/sophomore seasons, so this is still above his career average in volume, and slightly below in efficiency.

Finally, Wade averages 26 ppg on 46% FG.

The same pattern for every player (except LeBron)? Higher volume than their career averages, and slight dip in efficiency (probably from having to play against the Spurs, teammates aren't as good and thus needed to show up).

But let me guess, in spite of all these stats showing the players still did their stuff, you're going to tell me "stats don't matter"

So accolades (DPOY awards and first team selections) don't matter, the praise from peers regarding defense don't matter, and stats don't matter. What does then? Only your opinion?
LOL So where did I talk bullshit? I said when Bowen makes them play a subpar game, you bring career averages. Opinions are ****ing opinions. I think Bowen is better.

[Big#50]

Jordan fans always bring up the perimeter friendly era. How Kobe has it so easy to score. Which only means playing D is harder, right? Here you guys are lauging because I mentioned Bowen and Artest. MJ used the hand check more than anyone I've seen. I know defenders still use it, but nothing close to what MJ got to do. Think about Bowen being allowed to be even more dirty and tricky. Bowen played D with his sick footwork. Hands down and to the side. That shit is super hard to do. It is way more impressive to the D MJ played. Much more.

[Dave3]

LOL So where did I talk bullshit? I said when Bowen makes them play a subpar game, you bring career averages. Opinions are ****ing opinions. I think Bowen is better.
These are all their career averages against Bowen....showing that their averages against Bowen compared to their career averages are pretty much the same, showing that they didn't have anymore subpar games against Bowen than any other defensive player...(and it was probably more the Spurs overall defense). How are you not following?

[Big#50]

These are all their career averages against Bowen....showing that their averages against Bowen compared to their career averages are pretty much the same, showing that they didn't have anymore subpar games against Bowen than any other defensive player...(and it was probably more the Spurs overall defense). How are you not following?
So you're saying they never had a subpar game against Bowen?

[G-train]

So you're saying they never had a subpar game against Bowen?

He had many, and also good games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=bowenbr01

:cheers:

[RazorBaLade]

So you're saying they never had a subpar game against Bowen?

ppl have subpar games against bad defenders too

what is your point

[G-train]

I dont think a knowledgable fan with no agenda can argue that Bowen wasn't a fantastic defender, the premier wing defender of the 00's and regularly guarded the star players and lessoned their impact.

[Big#50]

These are all their career averages against Bowen....showing that their averages against Bowen compared to their career averages are pretty much the same, showing that they didn't have anymore subpar games against Bowen than any other defensive player...(and it was probably more the Spurs overall defense). How are you not following?
Drexler averaged 24 against MJ. Four points over his career average. Miller averaged 19, one more than his career average. Richmond averaged about 24 in his prime against MJ. Whats your point? I'm pretty sure they're not better than Kobe, etc.

[Big#50]

ppl have subpar games against bad defenders too

what is your point
That if a great player has a subpar game against you, you disrupted the game plan. And it's not all about playing the lanes and blocking the shot.

[LebronairJAMES]

Guy1: What if Phong wasn't himself but some other gay with every dick stacked in his favor?

Guy2: OMG he would so scary and would rulez teh ass holes!

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan fans always bring up the perimeter friendly era. How Kobe has it so easy to score. Which only means playing D is harder, right? Here you guys are lauging because I mentioned Bowen and Artest. MJ used the hand check more than anyone I've seen. I know defenders still use it, but nothing close to what MJ got to do. Think about Bowen being allowed to be even more dirty and tricky. Bowen played D with his sick footwork. Hands down and to the side. That shit is super hard to do. It is way more impressive to the D MJ played. Much more.

You're either batshit insane or a flat out liar if you think that Jordan handchecked a lot. MJ used his hands on defense much less than all other great defenders of his time (Dumars, Rodman, Pippen, Payton, Robertson, Moncrief, and Cooper all handchecked way more than Jordan). To say that a guy with perhaps the quickest feet and best anticipation of anyone over 6'4" in history needed to rely on handchecking any more than other defenders is a joke. Shows you haven't watched much of MJ.

[Dave3]

Drexler averaged 24 against MJ. Four points over his career average. Miller averaged 19, one more than his career average. Richmond averaged about 24 in his prime against MJ. Whats your point? I'm pretty sure they're not better than Kobe, etc.
It has nothing to do with how they compare to modern players. It's how the numbers against the defender compare to their career numbers. Bowen's last real season was 2008, so he never really played against LeBron at his best, or Wade at his best, and his majority of games against Chris Paul came when Paul was a rookie and sophomore, and yet their volume numbers (in their non prime years) are still higher than their normal career numbers (which include their prime years). When Jordan played Drexler,he was mostly playing him in Drexler's prime, so his numbers were higher during that period than his career averages.

[Big#50]

You're either batshit insane or a flat out liar if you think that Jordan handchecked a lot. MJ used his hands on defense much less than all other great defenders of his time (Dumars, Rodman, Pippen, Payton, Robertson, Moncrief, and Cooper all handchecked way more than Jordan). To say that a guy with perhaps the quickest feet and best anticipation of anyone over 6'4" in history needed to rely on handchecking any more than other defenders is a joke. Shows you haven't watched much of MJ.
LOL quickest feet. MJ hand checked like a mothafukka. It sure helped to play in an era where athletic freaks like him werent the norm.

[Big#50]

It has nothing to do with how they compare to modern players. It's how the numbers against the defender compare to their career numbers. Bowen's last real season was 2008, so he never really played against LeBron at his best, or Wade at his best, and his majority of games against Chris Paul came when Paul was a rookie and sophomore, and yet their volume numbers (in their non prime years) are still higher than their normal career numbers (which include their prime years). When Jordan played Drexler,he was mostly playing him in Drexler's prime, so his numbers were higher during period tha his career averages.
All those players were top five by 08. All are better than Drexler/Miller/Richmond. I would say way better in my eyes.

[Micku]

Jordan wasn't the greatest, but he is one of the best perimeter defensive players.

Besides, you cannot really call one person the absolute best anyway at that sort of thing.

[GOBB]

Hey I'm not from America. I have a question. Is MJ the only guy who played basketball in the NBA? I ask because I constantly see threads about the guy all the time. Yearly even. Thanks

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL quickest feet. MJ hand checked like a mothafukka. It sure helped to play in an era where athletic freaks like him werent the norm.

You're flat-out wrong and a lair to boot. Not worth arguing with someone so obviously biased.

[guy]

LOL quickest feet. MJ hand checked like a mothafukka. It sure helped to play in an era where athletic freaks like him werent the norm.

What the hell is so funny about saying Jordan had the quickest feet?

Its hilarious how you can tell who didn't watch back then. First Ron Artest and Shane Battier were better defenders then Jordan, and now saying Jordan had the quickest feet is some kind of preposterous claim.

[NugzHeat3]

Jordan definitely had some ridiculously quick feet. He moved so well laterally and I have said it before, I'd take first three-peat Jordan over anybody else when it comes to defending PGs. Over Payton and Kidd who weren't as adept at defending the quicker ones with creative handles.

He had some very nice anticipation skills as well which allowed him to read plays.

Even on the play where Jordan got "embarassed" by Iverson, it really wasn't that big of a deal. Iverson hit a tough shot but he didn't create a whole lot of seperation on the move. Jordan recovered very well and almost blocked the shot. Jordan defended him on another switch in 1998 I think and contested it very well that Iverson shot an air ball.

I can see him being overrated though when people say he deserved his DPoY or is a top 10 all-time defender. If he really was, the 1994 and 1995 Bulls wouldn't have done so well defensively. I can buy the Bulls giving more effort on defense as a team since their offense clearly took a hit with Jordan out.

It just shows that perimeter players aren't that impactful as opposed to bigs. Whenever bigs go down, their team's defense took a nosedive as well. Look at the games that Robinson, Hakeem, Duncan and such didn't play. Their teams took a pretty big hit.

From the guys I have seen, Jordan is top 2 when it comes to perimeter defense right after Pippen.

I'd put Rodman up there but he was solely a defensive stopper which allowed him to exert more energy and he wasn't the help or team defender Jordan was. Better at man to man though. Bulls Rodman neglected defense to pad his rebounding totals and he wasn't a perimeter player anyway.

[Da_Realist]

Jordan definitely had some ridiculously quick feet. He moved so well laterally and I have said it before, I'd take first three-peat Jordan over anybody else when it comes to defending PGs. Over Payton and Kidd who weren't as adept at defending the quicker ones with creative handles.

He had some very nice anticipation skills as well which allowed him to read plays.

Even on the play where Jordan got "embarassed" by Iverson, it really wasn't that big of a deal. Iverson hit a tough shot but he didn't create a whole lot of seperation on the move. Jordan recovered very well and almost blocked the shot. Jordan defended him on another switch in 1998 I think and contested it very well that Iverson shot an air ball.

I can see him being overrated though when people say he deserved his DPoY or is a top 10 all-time defender. If he really was, the 1994 and 1995 Bulls wouldn't have done so well defensively. I can buy the Bulls giving more effort on defense as a team since their offense clearly took a hit with Jordan out.

It just shows that perimeter players aren't that impactful as opposed to bigs. Whenever bigs go down, their team's defense took a nosedive as well. Look at the games that Robinson, Hakeem, Duncan and such didn't play. Their teams took a pretty big hit.

From the guys I have seen, Jordan is top 2 when it comes to perimeter defense right after Pippen.

I'd put Rodman up there but he was solely a defensive stopper which allowed him to exert more energy and he wasn't the help or team defender Jordan was. Better at man to man though. Bulls Rodman neglected defense to pad his rebounding totals and he wasn't a perimeter player anyway.

^^ Can't be more fair than this. I do think Jordan and other perimeter players should be recognized for their defense (they should all be candidates to win DPOY) but that's my only gripe. I think players should be judged relative to their position, but that's splitting hairs.

[Teanett]

So if Bowen makes Dirk, Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade have a sub par game, that doesn't disrupt game plans?

no, it doesnt, since they're still getting their shots.
now watch the '92 bulls half court trap...

[Big#50]

You're flat-out wrong and a lair to boot. Not worth arguing with someone so obviously biased.
You wouldn't happen to be a Jordan stan, would you?

[Teanett]

I can see him being overrated though when people say he deserved his DPoY or is a top 10 all-time defender. If he really was, the 1994 and 1995 Bulls wouldn't have done so well defensively.

this was also result of phil slowing their game down a lot, since they basically lost one 3rd of their offense.

[Big#50]

What the hell is so funny about saying Jordan had the quickest feet?

Its hilarious how you can tell who didn't watch back then. First Ron Artest and Shane Battier were better defenders then Jordan, and now saying Jordan had the quickest feet is some kind of preposterous claim.
I never mentioned Battier. I also said Artest has a case over him. Yes, saying MJ had the quickest feet is freaking preposterous. Shit is ****ing idiotic.

[Big#50]

no, it doesnt, since they're still getting their shots.
now watch the '92 bulls half court trap...
1992 LOL the early 90's. Half court trap lol. Because Jordan trapped teams by himself, right? Damn, that MJ sure was perfect. Could beat the aliens and trap teams by himself in the back court.

[DMV2]

He was better than Wade, LeBron and Kobe combined for sure.

[Teanett]

1992 LOL the early 90's. Half court trap lol. Because Jordan trapped teams by himself, right? Damn, that MJ sure was perfect. Could beat the aliens and trap teams by himself in the back court.

no. 'team defense' is the key word and speed.
mj, pippen and horace grant had it. perfection.

[Big#50]

He was better than Wade, LeBron and Kobe combined for sure.
LOL this is getting out of hand.

[nnn123]

I never mentioned Battier. I also said Artest has a case over him. Yes, saying MJ had the quickest feet is freaking preposterous. Shit is ****ing idiotic.

He said MJ has the quickest feet of players over 6'4. That sounds reasonable (to me), unless you can think of some good examples of that not being the case

[GiveItToBurrito]

No one does. The only people who would say that on this board are the trolls with multiple accounts.

By the way, DPOY and all defense teams mean jack shit, anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that they just go to the most well known players vs the guys who are actually the best defenders at their positions.

[Big#50]

He said MJ has the quickest feet of players over 6'4. That sounds reasonable (to me), unless you can think of some good examples of that not being the case
Didnt read the 6'4 part. Who did he have to go GUARD? Starks, Blackman, Theus, Richmond, Miller, Paxson, Ehlo, Horny, Malone, Scott, who else? I have a hard time remembering guards from that era. None of those players were close to being as good as Wade, Kobe, Lebron, TMAC, Carter, etc.
By the time second three peat Bulls came around he wasn't in his prime anymore, so I can't really fault him for his average defense. But it would have been great to see how he could check a TMAC or Lebron.

[Teanett]

Didnt read the 6'4 part. Who did he have to go GUARD? Starks, Blackman, Theus, Richmond, Miller, Paxson, Ehlo, Horny, Malone, Scott, who else? I have a hard time remembering guards from that era. None of those players were close to being as good as Wade, Kobe, Lebron, TMAC, Carter, etc.


watch some games first before coming on here, you lil elementary school hairless ******** noitall b!tch.

[Big#50]

watch some games first before coming on here, you lil elementary school hairless ******** noitall b!tch.
Jim Paxson still played some good ball after MJ came into the league. I said I had a hard time remembering. I know his best days were before MJ. Never said I knew it all. I'm 31 btw. Been watching since late 87. Your opinion on MJ is well noted. I'm just arguing my opinion of what I saw. No need to get personal.

[StarJordan]

1993 ECF Decisive game 5 sequence at MSG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tazKgs21JTs

Highlight example of lethal bulls team defense, but Knicks most dangerous shooter that year was john starks....jordan made him give up the shot that set this up

[Big#50]

1993 ECF Decisive game 5 sequence at MSG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tazKgs21JTs

Highlight example of lethal bulls team defense, but Knicks most dangerous shooter that year was john starks....jordan made him give up the shot that set this up
Great team defense. Those Bulls had sick team D. Grant is really underrated these days.

[Jacks3]

Jordan is definetly a better defender than Battier.
Definitely not.

[Jacks3]

Only Pippen is arguable and probably superior. None of the others are. Again, if we're talking STRICTLY man-to-man defense, then yes, some of those guys are comparable and possibly superior (certainly more consistent given that most were specialists). But in terms of overall defensive impact on game - changing the entire complexion of games defensively - none of them even approach Jordan except for Pippen and possibly Payton. The rest of their team/help defense isn't nearly good enough to be in the discussion with Jordan. Learn the game.
You're hyperbole is ridiculous. None of them even approach Jordan? Really? You're telling me Jordan was far better defensively than a guy like Bowen?

Please. You're totally overrating the impact team/help defense has on the perimeter. You'd have a case if we're talking bigs, but on the perimeter? Man-to-man/on-ball defense is just as important...if not more so. Learn the game son.

Jordan's team got better defensively after he left. Better. He has no case for defensive G.O.A.T. He's not even close and is certainly not indisputably better than the guys I listed. Get off Jordan's dick son. ****ing *******.

[Jacks3]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.
THIS.

[Jacks3]

He was better than Wade, LeBron and Kobe combined for sure.
LeBron the last couple of years has been a more impactful defender than Jordan ever was. Kobe circa 00-02 was a better on-ball defender than Jordan ever was. G.O.A.T lateral quickness. :pimp:

[SuperPippen]

Don't want to see any of what Jacks3 just posted, but, for fun, I'm gonna try to guess what he said. Probably something along the lines of:

"LOL at those clowns who think MJ was a great defender.:roll: :roll: :roll:

Those Jordan dick-riders really need to hop off his nuts and hop onto Kobe's. Kobe is DA GOAT perimeter defender:pimp: :pimp: :pimp: :pimp: "

[catch24]

Don't want to see any of what Jacks3 just posted, but, for fun, I'm gonna try to guess what he said. Probably something along the lines of:

"LOL at those clowns who think MJ was a great defender.:roll: :roll: :roll:

Those Jordan dick-riders really need to hop off his nuts and hop onto Kobe's. Kobe is DA GOAT perimeter defender:pimp: :pimp: :pimp: :pimp: "

LOL, you got the PIMP emoticon correct :oldlol:

[Big164]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ

You want to "forget stats because MJ smokes all the other guards in Rebounds, Steals, and Blocks.

So we resort to comparing him to forwards and over-rating Cooper. Ignoring the fact that Cooper was anchored by Kareem, while Pip and MJ never had an elite center to clean up their mess.

[Big#50]

You want to "forget stats because MJ smokes all the other guards in Rebounds, Steals, and Blocks.

So we resort to comparing him to forwards and over-rating Cooper. Ignoring the fact that Cooper was anchored by Kareem, while Pip and MJ never had an elite center to clean up their mess.
Stats can be misleading on defense.
Player A can have to blocks and two steals but the man he's covering can go 12 for 19 and 30 points.
Player B doesn't block a shot, doesn't get a steal, his man goes 10 for 25 for 22points.
who's the better defender?? We'd have to watch the game, right? Did those steals and blocks come in garbage time? Did the block or steal come on a crucial possession?
Not saying MJ never had crucial defensive plays. He did. Just trying to make my case here. Stats aren't everything.
Camby averaged more blocks than Duncan, even has a DPOY to Duncan's zero, yet everyone knows Tim is better than Camby and of the best ever.

[rodman91]

Nobody calls him greatest defender.But he was one of the best.

He has case for being best perimeter defender though.

[StarJordan]

1993 ECF Decisive game 5 sequence at MSG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tazKgs21JTs

Highlight example of lethal bulls team defense, but Knicks most dangerous shooter that year was john starks....jordan made him give up the shot that set this up
Great team defense. Those Bulls had sick team D. Grant is really underrated these days.

Great coordination even though it was basically a dogfight at the end...bulls came away with it