Peak DWade or Peak TMac?

[Rojogaqu11]

Ignoring injuries to both players. Teammates and coaches being the same.
Who's better individually? Who would you add to your favorite team right now?

[Doctor Rivers]

Wade --> Finals MVP

[L8kersfan222]

Wade --> Finals MVP


/thread
Doctor Rivers GOAT

[15yearmagicfan]

Prime T-Mac anyday.

[Vienceslav]

Winning a playoff series is gotta count for something.

["Jesus"]

Prime TMAC.

[All Net]

Wade but it's closer than people think

[HylianNightmare]

Tmac

[RRR3]

Prime? Wade. Absolute peak? McGrady. His 2002-03 season was godly.

[Dragonyeuw]

Whose season would you guys rate better? Wade 2008-09 or Tmac 2002-2003.

[Dragonyeuw]

Wade --> Finals MVP

Mcgrady never a team nearly as good as the 2005-2006 Miami Heat. We've seen Wade, in 2008 and 2009 with the same circumstances as Tmac( mediocre teammates) and the results were the same. Same with Kobe in 2005-2006 and 2006-2007. Unfortunately Tmac and Yao could never stay healthy enough after 2005 to really gel as a unit, I think that team could have done some damage given better health.

[pauk]

Damn..... thats a tough one.... but... ill go with WADE

[Smoke117]

Whose season would you guys rate better? Wade 2008-09 or Tmac 2002-2003.

Wade's 2009 season is better and his peak is better in general.

[Doctor Rivers]

Damn..... thats a tough one.... but... ill go with WADE

damn straight

[RRR3]

I hope that everyone saying Wade thinks wades peak>kobe's peak because t-mac's peak season is arguably better than kobes best season.

[L8kersfan222]

I hope that everyone saying Wade thinks wades peak>kobe's peak because t-mac's peak season is arguably better than kobes best season.



you stupid or what bro

[RRR3]

you stupid or what bro
Jesus Christ I hate Kobe fans. You can't say that anyone has been better that him at anything at any point in time without getting attacked. Everyone knows Kobes career shits on T-Mac's, but that's not enough is it? You can't accept that T-Mac was better at one brief point in time.

[donald_trump]

wade... not close.

better offensive player, and better defensive player.

[L8kersfan222]

:mad:

what u mad at me for

[RRR3]

what u mad at me for
Wow typical Kobe Stan response...the completely original hasn't already been used 8 zillion times classic "u mad?". Tell me, how'd you get so brilliant and creative?

[L8kersfan222]

:cry:


:eek:

[catch24]

Peak? Very close; I consider Wade's peak to be in 2009 and Mac's in 2003. I think they're about as 1A and 1B as you can get when comparing/contrasting individual players. In their primes though? Wade all-day.

[Dave3]

:eek:
Yeah, sorry to say, but you're not coming off as very intelligent right now...someone makes a statement and you call them stupid.

They say it's not that ludicrous to think so, you reply with "u mad?"

They say the "u mad" response is stupid, and change their post into crying.

You've actually said nothing intelligent, and yet you were the one starting a thread on "trolls" derail threads. Not hypocritical at all....

Oh, and I'll save you a step. Here....:cry: ...so you don't have to add it in yourself.

[Miller for 3]

03 Tmac > Any version of Wade, but its close.

[Dragonyeuw]

better offensive player.

Tmac had practically unlimited offensive potential, a complete arsenal of skills. Don't agree here, and I'm a Wade fan.

[chazzy]

09 Wade was better IMO

You can't say that anyone has been better that him at anything at any point in time without getting attacked.
Speak for yourself dude; I see you get PISSED when people suggest Kobe was better in 03 as if that was some untouchable season from TMac. It's definitely debatable..

[ShaqAttack3234]

T-Mac's peak season(2003) and Wade's(2009) are very close. Both were amazing individually and played on garbage teams that they had to drag to the playoffs.

I might side slightly with McGrady. Even better scorer, better shooter, at least as good of a passer and a better rebounder.

Wade was better defensively, though.

But for overall primes? Wade's overall prime has been better than McGrady's though.

[D.J.]

2002-03 McGrady
32.1 PPG
6.5 RPG
5.5 APG
1.7 SPG
0.8 BPG
45.7% from the field
38.6% from downtown
56.4 TS%
50.5 eFG%
30.3 PER
116 offensive rating
104 defensive rating


2008-09 Wade
30.2 PPG
5.0 RPG
7.5 APG
2.2 SPG
1.3 BPG
49.1% from the field
31.7% from downtown
57.4 TS%
51.6 eFG%
30.4 PER
115 offensive rating
105 defensive rating

[Doctor Rivers]

I hope that everyone saying Wade thinks wades peak>kobe's peak because t-mac's peak season is arguably better than kobes best season.

Wade >> Kobe

2nd best SG of all time

[ThaSwagg3r]

I hope that everyone saying Wade thinks wades peak>kobe's peak because t-mac's peak season is arguably better than kobes best season.
http://oi55.tinypic.com/34g3fk0.jpg


There isn't a single person other than maybe yourself that actually thinks that.


The only way for this debate to be legit is if we say Tmac's peak lasted for last 35 seconds in that Rockets-Spurs game.

[rodman91]

I think 06 Wade was better than 09 Wade..Not by stats but he had much more agressive playing style both on defense and offense.

Because of that agression in early years I'll go with Wade.Since injury he has a lot "out of focus" games even if he scores high.

[PJR]

If you're a sucker for deep shooting range, and guys who can make bad shots you take McGrady. If you value efficiency and winning, you'll side with Wade's brand of basketball(as most coaches and top tier basketball executives would).

[Dragonyeuw]

If you're a sucker for deep shooting range, and guys who can make bad shots you take McGrady. If you value efficiency and winning, you'll side with Wade's brand of basketball(as most coaches and top tier basketball executives would).

What had Wade done in terms of winning, without a great team around him? In 2008 and 2009, he had mediocre teammates and was ousted in the first round. Tmac,during his Orlando career, had mediocre teammates and couldn't get out of the first round. What's the difference? Tmac's body broke down just as he was getting a decent team around him in Houston, and it didn't help matters that the franchise center was just as brittle as he was. Reality is we never got to see a healthy Tmac with a 'really' good team.

[thejumpa]

Give me TMac. They are both extremely close though.

["Jesus"]

Peak T-Mac > Any version of wade.

:applause:

[RRR3]

http://oi55.tinypic.com/34g3fk0.jpg


There isn't a single person other than maybe yourself that actually thinks that.


The only way for this debate to be legit is if we say Tmac's peak lasted for last 35 seconds in that Rockets-Spurs game.
You're an idiot. I guarantee you I could find a few people who'd agree with me. And I said arguable you ****tard.

[catch24]

You're an idiot. I guarantee you I could find a few people who'd agree with me. And I said arguable you ****tard.

Prime or peak? Because Kobe's 2006-2008 seasons were clearly better than any of Mac's (including his 2002-2003 season).

[RRR3]

Prime or peak? Because Kobe's 2006-2008 seasons were clearly better than any of Mac's (including his 2002-2003 season).
It wasn't clearly better. As bad his supporting cast was, T-Mac's was even worse, and he was more efficient. T-Mac is one of the few in history to have a PER over 30, which he did in 2002-03. He scored 32 PPG as opposed to Kobe's 35, but Kobe shot an insane amount that year (even for a volume scorer, which both of them were) and the handchecking rule was in effect and that year featured some insane scoring.

The top 20 scorers of 2005-06:
1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2
13. Jason Richardson-GSW 23.2
14. Chris Bosh-TOR 22.5
15. Shawn Marion-PHO 21.8
16. Kevin Garnett-MIN 21.8
17. Mike Bibby-SAC 21.1
18. Antawn Jamison-WAS 20.5
19. Pau Gasol-MEM 20.4
20. Mike James-TOR 20.3

That's a lot of guys around 25 or more a game, and you multiple have players on that list scoring near or at their absolute peak.

[catch24]

It wasn't clearly better. As bad his supporting cast was, T-Mac's was even worse, and he was more efficient.

How was T-Mac more efficient?

Mcgrady in 2003: .564 TS%; .505 eFG%

Bryant in 2006: .559 TS%; .502 eFG% on 3+ more PPG
in 2007: .580; .502
in 2008: .576; .503

When you factor in postseason play, Kobe was clearly better (don't confuse clearly with 'easily'). If you're including defense you'll find few and far between that disagree with me.

I understand Mac had a 30+ per, which is an incredible feat (really shows how legendary he was an all-around player that year), but Kobe was a better scorer, shooter, and defender.

The top 20 scorers of 2005-06:
1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2
13. Jason Richardson-GSW 23.2
14. Chris Bosh-TOR 22.5
15. Shawn Marion-PHO 21.8
16. Kevin Garnett-MIN 21.8
17. Mike Bibby-SAC 21.1
18. Antawn Jamison-WAS 20.5
19. Pau Gasol-MEM 20.4
20. Mike James-TOR 20.3


That's a lot of guys around 25 or more a game, and you multiple have players on that list scoring near or at their absolute peak.

Kobe was putting up 30+ in the regular and postseasons prior to the rule changes (arguably had his best all-around statistical season in 2002-2003 as well); the rule changes were noticeable but are overstated on these boards... just saying.

[ThaSwagg3r]

You're an idiot. I guarantee you I could find a few people who'd agree with me. And I said arguable you ****tard.
Nope, not even. If Tmac and Kobe were arguable in '02-'03 (upper hand probably goes to Kobe) and Kobe has had much better seasons than '02-'03 what does that say?

[RRR3]

How was T-Mac more efficient?

Mcgrady in 2003: .564 TS%; .505 eFG%

Bryant in 2006: .559 TS%; .502 eFG% on 3+ more PPG
in 2007: .580; .502
in 2008: .576; .503

When in you factor in postseason play, Kobe was clearly better (don't confuse clearly with 'easily'). If you're including defense I'm sure you'll find few and far between that disagree with me.

I understand Mac had a 30+ per, which is an incredible feat (really shows how legendary he was an all-around player that year).

The top 20 scorers of 2005-06:
1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2
13. Jason Richardson-GSW 23.2
14. Chris Bosh-TOR 22.5
15. Shawn Marion-PHO 21.8
16. Kevin Garnett-MIN 21.8
17. Mike Bibby-SAC 21.1
18. Antawn Jamison-WAS 20.5
19. Pau Gasol-MEM 20.4
20. Mike James-TOR 20.3



Kobe was putting up 30+ in the regular and postseason prior to the rules changes (arguably had his best all-around statistical season in 2002-2003 as well); the rule changes were noticeable but overstated on these boards... just saying.

T-Mac was more efficient in 2002-03. I didn't say he was more efficient in any other year (not sure if he was but they were fairly even in efficiency until McGrady started declining in 2005). And McGrady teammates on that 2002-03 squad are just unbelievably bad. And what he did against the Pistons, taking them to 7 games (I realize they were up 3-1, but that in itself is incredible) was ridiculous. Here are his teammates from that year http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html. And remember Grant Hill was hurt most of the year and for the playoffs, and Mike Miller was traded midway through the year. McGrady's defense gets underrated too much, as he was lazy, but could definitely play defense when he wanted too, and there were some years that he played pretty damn good d the whole season.

[RRR3]

Nope, not even. If Tmac and Kobe were arguable in '02-'03 (upper hand probably goes to Kobe) and Kobe has had much better seasons than '02-'03 what does that say?
He's never had a "MUCH" better season and he was not better in 02-03. I swear you would argue with me if I said the sky was blue.

[RRR3]

Also, McGrady has averaged 28.5 PPG in the playoffs career wise. Granted, it's only a 38 game sample size, but it's just worth noting.

[catch24]

T-Mac was more efficient in 2002-03.

More efficient in 2003 than Kobe? I agree; however he's never been more efficient than 2006-2008 Kobe which is what I thought we were debating.


And McGrady teammates on that 2002-03 squad are just unbelievably bad.

Kobe dragged a cast of clowns into the postseason too; in a deeper/better conference faring much better (talking about individual play here).

It's close but it's clear that Kobe was better when you take into account the other aspects I've posted (defense, postseason-play, supporting casts, etc).

[ThaSwagg3r]

More efficient in 2003 than Kobe? I agree; however he's never been more efficient than 2006-2008 Kobe which is what I thought we were debating.


Kobe dragged a cast of clowns into the postseason too; in a deeper/better conference faring much better (talking about individual play here).

It's close but it's clear that Kobe was better when you take into account the other aspects I've posted (defense, postseason-play, supporting casts, etc).
Game over.

[ShaqAttack3234]

2002-03 McGrady
32.1 PPG
6.5 RPG
5.5 APG
1.7 SPG
0.8 BPG
45.7% from the field
38.6% from downtown
56.4 TS%
50.5 eFG%
30.3 PER
116 offensive rating
104 defensive rating


2008-09 Wade
30.2 PPG
5.0 RPG
7.5 APG
2.2 SPG
1.3 BPG
49.1% from the field
31.7% from downtown
57.4 TS%
51.6 eFG%
30.4 PER
115 offensive rating
105 defensive rating

I think that while looking at the numbers, it's also important to factor in that the league was tougher defensively in 2003. '98-'04 was without question tougher defensively than the league has been before or since, imo.

2003 league averages
Defensive rating- 103.6
ppg- 95.1
FG%- 44.2%
eFG%- 47.4%
TS%- 51.9%

2009 league averages
Defensive rating- 108.3
ppg- 100
FG%- 45.9%
eFG%- 50%
TS%- 54.4%

The differences are too big to ignore, imo, bigger than Wade's advantages in eFG% which is 52% vs 51% and TS% which is 57% vs 56%. Then you have McGrady's edge of 32 ppg vs 30 ppg.

McGrady's scoring season was not only more impressive statistically, but watching the 2 seasons, McGrady seemed more complete and unstoppable as a scorer in 2003 than Wade in 2009 due to his height advantage of 3-4 inches, at least equal athleticism, superior shooting ability(both off the dribble and catch and shoot) and I think he was a better off the ball player.

McGrady has the advantage as a rebounder(yes mainly due to his height advantage, but because they played the same position, the advantage can't be used against him).

Assist numbers favor Wade(though he was more turnover prone, but I don't actually think he was a better passer. T-Mac also averaged 6.5 apg in 2007 when he didn't have the same athleticism and without looking like he could make any passes that he couldn't in 2003 which proves that assist numbers don't necessarily reflect passing ability.


I think 06 Wade was better than 09 Wade..Not by stats but he had much more agressive playing style both on defense and offense.

Because of that agression in early years I'll go with Wade.Since injury he has a lot "out of focus" games even if he scores high.

I disagree, he played aggressively in 2009 at both ends, and added to his game. He never shot the ball as well as he did in 2009 in any other season. He played the best basketball of his life in the 2006 ECF and Finals, but as far as overall ability as a player and consistency over a season, I'd take 2009 Wade over 2006 Wade.

I doubt 2006 Wade would've even gotten the 2009 Heat to the playoffs.

[RRR3]

More efficient in 2003 than Kobe? I agree; however he's never been more efficient than 2006-2008 Kobe which is what I thought we were debating.



Kobe dragged a cast of clowns into the postseason too; in a deeper/better conference faring much better (talking about individual play here).

It's close but it's clear that Kobe was better when you take into account the other aspects I've posted (defense, postseason-play, supporting casts, etc).

Okay, first of all, T-Mac's 2002-03 supporting cast is worse than ANYTHING Kobe has ever played with. Secondly, although Kobe was certainly a better defender, the gap was not that large in some years (particularly) in 2000-01, 2004-05, and 2006-07. McGrady's size did make him a more versatile defender, though as I said, Kobe was the better defender. Finally, when Kobe has been on teams that are anywhere close to as bad as McGrady's team in 2002-03, he has achieved the exact same results: a first round exit (and blowing a 3-1 lead one year, same as T-Mac) or missing the playoffs completely. And in those brief postseasons, he did not play any better than McGrady did in his years with Orlando.

[RRR3]

Game over.
Not really, but at least catch24 is making his case in a respectful manner, and not just being an immature dickhead.

[NugzHeat3]

I'd take Wade but its really close. TMac was simply amazing that year, shame he couldn't sustain that level of play or even come close to it.

Stats are roughly a wash when you factor in rule changes but the intangibles give Wade the edge as far as I am concerned.

[RRR3]

Here's another way to look at it:
I don't think any version of Kobe (or Wade for that matter) could have done more than what T-Mac did on the Magic in 2002-03. There's certainly a good case to be made that he could have produced very similar results, but I fail to see how he would do more with that shitty team. We often hear about LeBron leading a terrible team to finals in 2007, but T-Mac's cast in 2002-03 makes LeBron's team look like the ****ing showtime Lakers.

[catch24]

Okay, first of all, T-Mac's 2002-03 supporting cast is worse than ANYTHING Kobe has ever played with.

What I'm saying is that Kobe's cast was nearly as atrocious AND that he fared better in a tougher Western Conference (5+ teams won 50+ games while in the EC, just two teams barely scratched 50).

I do agree that the defense isn't some monumental gap, but it's significant enough to point out when you're comparing players.


Finally, when Kobe has been on teams that are anywhere close to as bad as McGrady's team in 2002-03, he has achieved the exact same results

But played better. Like I said, his supporting cast wasn't exactly top drawer either.

[NugzHeat3]

Here's another way to look at it:
I don't think any version of Kobe (or Wade for that matter) could have done more than what T-Mac did on the Magic in 2002-03. There's certainly a good case to be made that he could have produced very similar results, but I fail to see how he would do more with that shitty team. We often hear about LeBron leading a terrible team to finals in 2007, but T-Mac's cast in 2002-03 makes LeBron's team look like the ****ing showtime Lakers.
Quality of supporting cast doesn't make a player better or worse. Its the level of play they play at or sustain. Supporting cast matters when you bring team results into account because players normally have no control over who they play with.

Kobe, TMAC or Wade weren't going to win it all if they replace Iverson on the 2001 Sixers but they would have performed better and they would have an easier time getting to the finals instead of going 7 games with Milwaukee and Toronto. Does that mean Iverson is as good as any of them? No.

[RRR3]

What I'm saying is that Kobe's cast was nearly as atrocious AND that he fared better in a tougher Western Conference (5+ teams won 50+ games while in the EC, just two teams barely scratched 50).

I do agree that the defense isn't some monumental gap, but it's significant enough to point out when you're comparing players.



But played better. Like I said, his supporting cast wasn't exactly top drawer either.
In the years when Kobe had a poor supporting cast, he played no better than McGrady did in the playoffs with Orlando.

[RRR3]

Quality of supporting cast doesn't make a player better or worse. Its the level of play they play at or sustain. Supporting cast matters when you bring team results into account because players normally have no control over who they play with.

Kobe, TMAC or Wade weren't going to win it all if they replace Iverson on the 2001 Sixers but they would have performed better and they would have an easier time getting to the finals instead of going 7 games with Milwaukee and Toronto. Does that mean Iverson is as good as any of them? No.

True, and a good point. I'm not saying this proves anything on my part, it was just something to consider. I would also say that Iverson in 2001 had a better supporting cast than T-Mac on the Magic, Kobe in the post-Shaq pre-Twin Towers years, and Wade post-Shaq pre-Big 3 years.

[catch24]

In the years when Kobe had a poor supporting cast, he played no better than McGrady did in the playoffs with Orlando.

I'd take 28/6/5 on 50%FG/59%TS/55%eFG and 33/5/4 on 46%FG/56%TS/50%eFG with better defense against a better team over 32/7/5 on 45%/56%TS/50%eFG any day.

[NugzHeat3]

True, and a good point. I'm not saying this proves anything on my part, it was just something to consider. I would also say that Iverson in 2001 had a better supporting cast than T-Mac on the Magic, Kobe in the post-Shaq pre-Twin Towers years, and Wade post-Shaq pre-Big 3 years.
I agree. That's why I was saying the quality of the supporting cast can often skew things when comparing individuals.

I like using the 2001 Iverson example because people act as if other star wings couldn't have produced similar results. They were never going to beat LA in the finals but a finals appearance isn't out of the question.

[kaiiu]

If you're a sucker for deep shooting range, and guys who can make bad shots you take McGrady. If you value efficiency and winning, you'll side with Wade's brand of basketball(as most coaches and top tier basketball executives would).
What the hell has Wade done without a good team around him?

[kaiiu]

Tmac and it aint even close. Tmac was a top 5 player in his prime with all those stars back then. Wade wouldnt even be relevant if he played in the early 2000s

[RRR3]

I'd take 28/6/5 on 50%FG/59%TS/55%eFG and 33/5/4 on 46%FG/56%TS/50%eFG with better defense against a better team over 32/7/5 on 45%/56%TS/50%eFG any day.
Those are the regular season numbers, not the playoff numbers and it has often been said thatKobe's defense was not as good in those years as it was in his earlier years. I am not saying it was or wasn't, I am just putting that out there.

[catch24]

Those are the regular season numbers, not the playoff numbers and it has often been said thatKobe's defense was not as good in those years as it was in his earlier years. I am not saying it was or wasn't, I am just putting that out there.

These are both players numbers from the postseason.

[RRR3]

These are the numbers from the postseason.
PER and WS (which I don't like BTW, just throwing it out there) tend to favor McGrady. It's close either way, my point is that it's foolish to act like Kobe did anything more with a shitty cast than T-Mac did in 02-03 w/o the handcheck shit and with a worse team.

[kaiiu]

why the hell did this thread become about Kobe? :oldlol:

dude u obsessed as fvck. *******

[RRR3]

why the hell did this thread become about Kobe? :oldlol:

dude u obsessed as fvck. *******
Look who's talking mr. I mention LeBron James every other post. And I mentioned Kobe because I think that if you're going to say Wade's best season is better than T-Mac's best, you have to say Wade's best season is better than Kobe's best because I think T-Mac's best is ≥ Kobe's best.

[ThaSwagg3r]

because I think T-Mac's best is ≥ Kobe's best.
Yet there hasn't been a single person that thinks that in this thread or on this site other than yourself. :oldlol:

You've been doing nothing but dancing around the arguments being thrown at you.

[catch24]

PER and WS (which I don't like BTW, just throwing it out there)

You don't like those adjusted stats but you're throwing them out there? lol.

Who played better in the postseason; Mac in '03 or Kobe in '06 and '07? Simple question.

From an individual perspective, including postsseason play, Kobe was better. That's all I'm saying. While I do think Mcgrady had a worst cast it wasn't that much worse than Kobe's; they were both awful.

[RRR3]

You don't like those adjusted stats but you're throwing them out there? lol.

Who played better in the postseason; Mac in '03 or Kobe in '06 and '07? Simple question.

From an individual perspective, including postsseason play, Kobe was better. That's all I'm saying. While I do think Mcgrady had a worst cast it wasn't that much worse than Kobe's; they were both awful.
I like PER. I don't like WS because it seems inconsistent to me, but I've seen a fair amount of people on ISH use them. And from an individual perspective it's close either way in the years we're talking about. Obviously, Kobe has had much better playoff runs since he's actually been far in the playoffs, but McGrady can't be faulted too badly for not winning on the Teams he was on.

[RRR3]

Yet there hasn't been a single person that thinks that in this thread or on this site other than yourself. :oldlol:

You've been doing nothing but dancing around the arguments being thrown at you.
There is one person disagreeing with me right now (catch24), and one person trolling me as usual (you). Hardly the "entire site".

[ThaSwagg3r]

There is one person disagreeing with me right now (catch24), and one person trolling me as usual (you). Hardly the "entire site".
And who is the one agreeing with you? :oldlol:

[catch24]

I like PER. I don't like WS because it seems inconsistent to me, but I've seen a fair amount of people on ISH use them. And from an individual perspective it's close either way in the years we're talking about. Obviously, Kobe has had much better playoff runs since he's actually been far in the playoffs, but McGrady can't be faulted too badly for not winning on the Teams he was on.

I like PER too and like you, I'm of the opinion WS are pretty useless (i.e., Kobe having more than Shaq during the 2001 postseason).

Strictly from the 2006 and 2007 seasons when both players had shit for help - which player had the better year?

[RRR3]

I like PER too and like you, I'm of the opinion WS are pretty useless (i.e., Kobe having more than Shaq during the 2001 postseason).

Strictly from the 2006 and 2007 seasons when both players had shit for help - which player had the better year?
Do you mean who had a better year between T-Mac in 2002-03 vs Kobe in 06-07 and 07-08. I would argue (though I admit I could be wrong) T-Mac, but it's very close either way. Keep in mind that Kobe's defense is usually said to have declined at some level by those years. If you mean both players for 06-07 and 07-08 then Kobe easily. McGrady was hurt a lot in those years and had begun to decline noticeably, especially in athleticism and shooting efficiency.

[RRR3]

And who is the one agreeing with you? :oldlol:
What does that prove? You would probably agree with anyone if they are debating with me, even if I am arguing that 2+2=4 and they say 2+2=235234. And that still doesn't excuse your ridiculous hyperbole. At least catch24 is making a legitimate argument, you have just passed off your opinions as facts and posted emoticons and childish remarks. So, only one person in this thread has actually been legitimately arguing with me, because even if I am wrong, you are hardly going to prove it using the methods you have been using, while catch24 has as good a chance as any to prove me wrong (assuming I am) since he is using nonbiased and fair arguments.

[catch24]

Do you mean who had a better year between T-Mac in 2002-03 vs Kobe in 06-07 and 07-08. I would argue (though I admit I could be wrong)

Yes, this is what I'm asking. And when I say 'better year', I include postseason play. You may think Kobe regressed as an invidual defender but his defense was significantly better than it was in 2009, 10 and '11. Significant enough to say he was better than '03 Mac as well.

[RRR3]

Yes, this is what I'm asking. When I say 'better year', I include postseason play. You may think Kobe regressed as an invidual defender but his defense was significantly better than it was in 2009, 10 and '11. Significant enough to say he was better than '03 Mac as well.
03 T-Mac was at least a good defender. And like I've said, you could make a good argument for either player. I've argued as well as I can (at least from what I know) so we'll have to agree to disagree.

[rodman91]

Kobe's best was unforgettable because of he had over 35 ppg for a season and had some crazy scoring nights. (81 and i guess more than 40 ppg for a month and stuff) Also playing for Lakers adds hype too.

However,T-Mac,Iverson,Lebron,Wade had similar or better peak seasons.

Kobe : 35.4 ppg 5.3 rpg 4.5 apg (45%)
Iverson: 33.0 ppg 3.2 rpg 7.4 apg (44.7%)
T-Mac:32.1 ppg 6.5 rpg 5.5 apg (45.7%)
Lebron: 31.4 ppg 7.0 rpg 6.6 apg (48%)
Wade : 30.2 ppg 5.0 rpg 7.5 apg (49.1%)

[KNOW1EDGE]

i think per can be very misleading thats why I dont like it. Heck stats can be misleading too.

T-Mac and D-Wade is a good debate. Kobe is better than both of them though.


Not taking into consideration rings, mvps, stats or anything like that, just their play on the court, I think D-Wade is still slightly better than Traci

[ThaSwagg3r]

What does that prove? You would probably agree with anyone if they are debating with me
It really isn't my fault that all of your opinions are dead wrong.

And it proves that you are the only person dumb enough to think such a thing.

[RRR3]

i think per can be very misleading thats why I dont like it. Heck stats can be misleading too.

T-Mac and D-Wade is a good debate. Kobe is better than both of them though.


Not taking into consideration rings, mvps, stats or anything like that, just their play on the court, I think D-Wade is still slightly better than Traci

To be sure, both Wade and especially Kobe have had much longer peaks than T-Mac did. T-Mac only had one year where I think he played up to his full potential (02-03) IMO (yes I think he was that good). Wade and Kobe have both had multiple seasons quite comparable to McGrady's best, while McGrady's best year was noticeably better than his second best.

[RRR3]

It really isn't my fault that all of your opinions are dead wrong.

And it proves that you are the only person dumb enough to think such a thing.
By the law of averages, I cannot be wrong all the time. And it doesn't prove anything, especially when you haven't shown how it is proven and instead resorted to your typical childish remarks.

[catch24]

03 T-Mac was at least a good defender. And like I've said, you could make a good argument for either player. I've argued as well as I can (at least from what I know) so we'll have to agree to disagree.

As good of a defender or just a good defender? Because I agree with the latter. You definitely had some great points (that do make sense), but I just think you're not factoring in Kobe's intangibles properly (defense, clutch-play, competition and what not).

All good though. Like you said, it's CLOSE but to me it's Kobe clearly; not easily though.

[ThaSwagg3r]

By the law of averages, I cannot be wrong all the time. And it doesn't prove anything, especially when you haven't shown how it is proven and instead resorted to your typical childish remarks.
Yup, you have never posted childish remarks in any of your posts......my b.

And you break the law of averages with your stupidity.

[catch24]

It really isn't my fault that all of your opinions are dead wrong.

And it proves that you are the only person dumb enough to think such a thing.

In all fairness, it is pretty close man. Funny thing is that we're talking about ONE great year from Mac whereas Kobe has had 3-4+ seasons just as good if not better. Crazy...

[RRR3]

As good of a defender or just a good defender? Because I agree with the latter. You definitely had some great points (that do make sense), but I just think you're not factoring in Kobe's intangibles properly (defense, clutch-play, competition and what not).

All good though. Like you said, it's CLOSE but to me Kobe was clearly; not easily though.
Final points: I meant the latter, I don't think peak T-Mac was ever equal to peak Kobe in defense, although IMO he could have been, but Kobe tried almost always back then on D, whereas McGrady tried when he felt like it. McGrady focused more on defense in some of his later years with the Rockets, but he was already in decline by then, so I can't use that in my argument. I don't really believe clutch play is that important (or that it is there at all) but McGrady certainly made some big plays in many games during his prime. Obviously, he didn't have a chance to do so in the later rounds of the playoffs. You also had many good points, and while I don't agree with all of them, I can certainly see your side of the argument. Thanks for taking this seriously unlike theswagger.

[ThaSwagg3r]

In all fairness, it is pretty close man. Funny thing is that we're talking about ONE great year from Mac whereas Kobe has had 3-4+ seasons just as good if not better. Crazy...
Talent wise, sure. Factor in everything like intangibles, post-season play, defense, etc.? It really isn't.

[RRR3]

Yup, you have never posted childish remarks in any of your posts......my b.

And you break the law of averages with your stupidity.
I don't constantly post childish remarks IMO, whereas you do the majority of the time. And, I am of the opinion that my screen name is RRR3. There, I was right about something. you lose.

[catch24]

Talent wise, sure. Factor in everything like intangibles, post-season play, defense, etc.? It really isn't.

I completely disagree, but can see why you think that.

[RRR3]

In all fairness, it is pretty close man. Funny thing is that we're talking about ONE great year from Mac whereas Kobe has had 3-4+ seasons just as good if not better. Crazy...

True which is why Kobe is top being considered for the top 10 all time and McGrady is much, much lower on the GOAT lists. I really think T-Mac could have been up there with Kobe if he hadn't got hurt so much and had a better work ethic, but that's all speculation.

[ThaSwagg3r]

I don't constantly post childish remarks IMO
http://oi55.tinypic.com/34g3fk0.jpg

[RRR3]

Talent wise, sure. Factor in everything like intangibles, post-season play, defense, etc.? It really isn't.

In terms of raw talent, T-Mac was pretty clearly better IMO. Obviously, Kobe gave a lot more of a shit and produced at an elite level for a much longer period of time.

[RRR3]

http://oi55.tinypic.com/34g3fk0.jpg
Never seen that one before.

[Sampsonsimpson]

Whose season would you guys rate better? Wade 2008-09 or Tmac 2002-2003.

I gotta go with Wade on that one.

30/7/5 with 2 steals and over a block a game on 49% from the field.

He was just as potent of a scorer and did it more efficiently and he had a bigger defensive impact than Mcgrady.

Although Mcgrady had a beast season too

32/6/5 with a steal a game on 46% from the field.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You don't like those adjusted stats but you're throwing them out there? lol.

Who played better in the postseason; Mac in '03 or Kobe in '06 and '07? Simple question.

From an individual perspective, including postsseason play, Kobe was better. That's all I'm saying. While I do think Mcgrady had a worst cast it wasn't that much worse than Kobe's; they were both awful.

I disagree. Both were facing teams that were considerably more talented their own, but I don't see how what Kobe did in either the '06 or '07 playoffs is any more impressive than what T-Mac's 2003 series vs Detroit.

In fact, the outcome of their 2003 and 2006 series was almost identical. Both went up 3-1 on a team they had no business going up 3-1 on, and both lost those series.

But when comparing numbers, I think it's important to note how different the '03 Pistons were from the '06/'07 Suns. Anyone who remembers those teams(should be most on these boards and I know you remember) should know right away how superior Detroit was defensively, but for those who don't.

2003 Pistons- 99.9 defensive rating, allowed 87.7 ppg on 43.8% shooting
2006 Suns- 105.8 defensive rating, allowed 102.8 ppg on 45.4% shooting

2007 Suns- 106.4 defensive rating, allowed 102.9 ppg on 45.7% shooting

T-Mac did open up the playoffs with 43 points in a game 1 victory and then 46 points in a game 2 loss. In fact that game 2 loss shows how bad his cast truly was as he scored on great efficiency shooting 16/26 from the field(62%), making 4 threes and shooting 10/11 at the line, while the rest of his team scored 31 points total on 26% shooting and they lost by 12.

I'll give 2006 and 2007 Kobe the edge over T-Mac, though not really because of defense(because I thought Kobe was average at best defensively in 2007 and not any better than 2003 T-Mac), but because I thought he did what T-Mac excelled at even better than T-Mac and because I feared Kobe more, and somewhat due to the eye test, not necessarily any deeper analysis than that, but that's all I need to satisfy myself at least for whatever that's worth. :oldlol:

I'd also rank 2008 Kobe over any of T-Mac's seasons simply because of how much he elevated his teammates, how much he dominated in the playoffs, his defense(I thought that was his best defensive season in years), leadership and the fact that I think he still had the ability to score at least 32-33 ppg if he wanted, but played so well throughout the whole game and seemed to know exactly when to score and exactly when to make his teammates look better than they really were.

But with that being said, I'd rank T-Mac over Kobe in 2003.

[The_Yearning]

Prime/Peak T-Mac is probably the best player this decade skill wise.

[kaiiu]

Prime/Peak T-Mac is probably the best player this decade skill wise.
this

[catch24]

But when comparing numbers, I think it's important to note how different the '03 Pistons were from the '06/'07 Suns. Anyone who remembers those teams(should be most on these boards and I know you remember) should know right away how superior Detroit was defensively, but for those who don't.

2003 Pistons- 99.9 defensive rating, allowed 87.7 ppg on 43.8% shooting
2006 Suns- 105.8 defensive rating, allowed 102.8 ppg on 45.4% shooting

2007 Suns- 106.4 defensive rating, allowed 102.9 ppg on 45.7% shooting

Not going to lie, that's a solid argument. Good post. Looking back at what I typed, the numbers actually show they're both as good (in '03, Mac had +4 more PPG than Kobe in 2006 and slightly better production than Kobe in 2007). So in that regard, I'll admit, I definitely overstated who was 'better'.

Seeing that their stats are pretty much a wash, just off intangibles, I felt what Kobe did in the 2006 postseason was crazy. Yeah, I know, the Pistons were quite clearly better defensively BUT on the flip side of that coin, Phoenix was definitely better on offense. What really impressed me about him was the fact he knew hanging 40 a night on 'em wouldn't do much if anything. They were a potent offensive team. They could withstand Kobe's insane scoring because of their pace. Kobe had to get his teammates involved, sacrifice his scoring, and ante up on the defensive end - and did so brilliantly. I'm not sure Mac could have done the same. Who knows though?



I'll give 2006 and 2007 Kobe the edge over T-Mac, though not really because of defense(because I thought Kobe was average at best defensively in 2007 and not any better than 2003 T-Mac), but because I thought he did what T-Mac excelled at even better than T-Mac and because I feared Kobe more, and somewhat due to the eye test, not necessarily any deeper analysis than that, but that's all I need to satisfy myself at least for whatever that's worth. :oldlol:

Exactly. Different facets like defense (negligible in your opinion) ability to make difficult shots and clutch play are what really stand out for me. I've always thought Kobe was one of if not the most skilled scorer the games seen. Strictly off scoring, Kobe has no weaknesses.


I'd also rank 2008 Kobe over any of T-Mac's seasons simply because of how much he elevated his teammates

Really? I can understand why you see it that way, but I've always thought 2006 and 2007 Kobe was every bit as good as he was in 2008 and more. He was notably more explosive the previous two years (athletically and as an offensive player) and IMO all he really needed was the right cast around him to replicate another MVP year. Not sure what it is exactly, but 2006 for me was the year I stepped back and thought Kobe really matured as a player. Someone who didn't watch that season will look at his FGA and say some idiotic crap like he was just a shot-jacker but you had to REALLY be there and watch that season to understand his help (or lack there of) and the circumstances behind all that shooting. His demeanor and attitude on the court really showed strides as the season progressed. I'll admit, I'm a homer of that year for a number of reasons (mainly because of what he had to do from a scoring standpoint whilst dragging a bunch of no-names into the postseason), but seriously...to me, the combination of both his athleticism and skill were never better than in 2006.

I would also rank T-Mac over Kobe in 2003.

[inclinerator]

wade is better but id rather have tmac on my team because he could shoot

[D-Wade316]

Wade. it's very close though.

[catch24]

I'd like to hear opinions from Chazzy, Fatal9, Samurai Swoosh (where have you been man?), OSB, All Net, and LA_showtime (if you still post here) on which season of Kobe's was he at his absolute best.

Not to derail the thread or anything but I've always found this topic pretty interesting. Would appreciate the perspective, thanks :cheers:

[kaiiu]

I think Kobe was the same player from 06-08. In 06 he was just a flat out scorer due to his team. In 07 he was half playmaker, half scorer. He was a playmaker for half of the season and after the Lakers had those injuries and losing streak he became the 06 scorer again. In 08 he had his best all around season when it came to mixing his playmaking and scoring.He didnt have to do one or the other to do it effective this season. In 01 Kobe was at his best defensively and was more of a slasher and spot up shooter.In 03 he expanded his scoring arsenal and was his best athletically.Hard to say which was the best from 06-08 because they were all the same just different roles.

[chazzy]

I'd like to hear opinions from Chazzy, Fatal9, Samurai Swoosh (where have you been man?), OSB, All Net, and LA_showtime (if you still post here) on which season of Kobe's was he at his absolute best.

Not to derail the thread or anything but I've always found this topic pretty interesting. Would appreciate the perspective, thanks :cheers:
Tough to pick one definitive season but I might have to go with 07. He was able to play a more team oriented game (like 08) for the first half of the season while recovering from surgery and then was able to pick up the load during the 2nd half of the season when they needed his scoring. 08 also has a case because he had a great playoff run, he was healthier, and was in better shape for the year so his defense was better. But I feel like 07 Kobe could've had a run like that if he had a better team, there was just no way they were beating that 07 Suns team.

06 was just a great individual season from him, ridiculous to average that PPG nowadays but I just don't think it was entirely conducive to run so much of your offense through one player like that. I felt like he had better balance in 07. 03 was just a fun season to watch, that was probably his athletic peak and he went on some amazing scoring runs.. and the league defense was better that year. But he just seemed more mature in his later years.

[catch24]

kaiiu holding it down. Good post man.


Tough to pick one definitive season but I might have to go with 07. He was able to play a more team oriented game (like 08) for the first half of the season while recovering from surgery and then was able to pick up the load during the 2nd half of the season when they needed his scoring. 08 also has a case because he had a great playoff run, he was healthier, and was in better shape for the year so his defense was better. But I feel like 07 Kobe could've had a run like that if he had a better team, there was just no way they were beating that 07 Suns team.

06 was just a great individual season from him, ridiculous to average that PPG nowadays but I just don't think it was entirely conducive to run so much of your offense through one player like that. I felt like he had better balance in 07. 03 was just a fun season to watch, that was probably his athletic peak and he went on some amazing scoring runs.. and the league defense was better that year. But he just seemed more mature in his later years.

Thanks chazzy. Hard to disagree with those points; had Kobe not been injured (well recovering from injury) at the beggining of the 2007 season, who knows what type of prioduction he'd of put up? I think the injury more than anything else slowed him down. Kobe was a bit faster/agile in 2006.

[ZaoMing]

i would take peak tmac over kobe or wade.:rockon:

[RRR3]

i would take peak tmac over kobe or wade.:rockon:
Agreed. I might even take peak tmac over lebron too except lbj in 2008-09 when he was godlike.

[Jacks3]

Peak Kobe crushes both of them. :pimp:

[RRR3]

Peak Kobe crushes both of them. :pimp:
Not at all.

[Dave3]

Really? I can understand why you see it that way, but I've always thought 2006 and 2007 Kobe was every bit as good as he was in 2008 and more. He was notably more explosive the previous two years (athletically and as an offensive player) and IMO all he really needed was the right cast around him to replicate another MVP year. Not sure what it is exactly, but 2006 for me was the year I stepped back and thought Kobe really matured as a player. Someone who didn't watch that season will look at his FGA and say some idiotic crap like he was just a shot-jacker but you had to REALLY be there and watch that season to understand his help (or lack there of) and the circumstances behind all that shooting. His demeanor and attitude on the court really showed strides as the season progressed. I'll admit, I'm a homer of that year for a number of reasons (mainly because of what he had to do from a scoring standpoint whilst dragging a bunch of no-names into the postseason), but seriously...to me, the combination of both his athleticism and skill were never better than in 2006.

Kobe was more talented definitely in 2005-2007 then he was in 2007-2008, but he was a different player mentally or stylistically in the latter year. There's a reason that his team was all of a sudden winning games at a much better clip (even before Gasol arrived). He played a team game, and his team benefited, even though his stats suffered. In the previous years he played a selfish games (yes I know his teammates were bad, but I think he could have done better with them had his game style been different), and put up great numbers, but I still believe those numbers came at the expense of wins. His team was almost unchanged from 2007 to 2008 (added Fisher, Bynum improved, that's it until Gasol arrived) and all of a sudden his winning percentage went from 51% to 66% (through 44 games I believe). His body may not have been 100% of what it was in 2006, but he was doing way more with it than he was in 2006, even though the stats show him to be much worse.

I'm sure you remember the general surprise around the league on how Kobe wasn't the same player he was anymore. People were talking about how for the first time in his career he didn't appear to be playing selfishly, but was playing a more team oriented game.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Seeing that their stats are pretty much a wash, just off intangibles, I felt what Kobe did in the 2006 postseason was crazy. Yeah, I know, the Pistons were quite clearly better defensively BUT on the flip side of that coin, Phoenix was definitely better on offense. What really impressed me about him was the fact he knew hanging 40 a night on 'em wouldn't do much if anything. They were a potent offensive team. They could withstand Kobe's insane scoring because of their pace. Kobe had to get his teammates involved, sacrifice his scoring, and ante up on the defensive end - and did so brilliantly. I'm not sure Mac could have done the same. Who knows though?

Definitely impressive after the approach he had to carry them to 45 wins and the playoffs. That's always impressed me as well, not to mention almost ending the series with 50 points in game 6.



Exactly. Different facets like defense (negligible in your opinion) ability to make difficult shots and clutch play are what really stand out for me. I've always thought Kobe was one of if not the most skilled scorer the games seen. Strictly off scoring, Kobe has no weaknesses.

Can't argue with any of that.


Really? I can understand why you see it that way, but I've always thought 2006 and 2007 Kobe was every bit as good as he was in 2008 and more. He was notably more explosive the previous two years (athletically and as an offensive player) and IMO all he really needed was the right cast around him to replicate another MVP year. Not sure what it is exactly, but 2006 for me was the year I stepped back and thought Kobe really matured as a player. Someone who didn't watch that season will look at his FGA and say some idiotic crap like he was just a shot-jacker but you had to REALLY be there and watch that season to understand his help (or lack there of) and the circumstances behind all that shooting. His demeanor and attitude on the court really showed strides as the season progressed. I'll admit, I'm a homer of that year for a number of reasons (mainly because of what he had to do from a scoring standpoint whilst dragging a bunch of no-names into the postseason), but seriously...to me, the combination of both his athleticism and skill were never better than in 2006.

It's tough for me to pick a best year for Kobe between 2006-2008. I think that he seemed more athletic and quicker in 2008 actually than 2007.

A big part of the difference between all 3 seasons was the situation. As far as what he was capable of? It's hard for me to put any on a different level than the other. I like 2006 as well for several reasons such as entertainment, and putting a team on his back and carrying them all season with some of the greatest scoring feats in NBA history.

2007 is great too for the reasons Chazzy stated and that display towards the end of the season when you knew he was going to score 50 whenever he wanted is still one of the most amazing stretches I can remember.

As far as overall game, 2008 was his best, imo, but for individual dominance, 2006 and 2007 are his best. But how well he played in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs also makes me favor 2008 somewhat.

[Jacks3]

Not at all.
Oh yes. It's true. Neither peak T-Mac or Wade have a case.

[RRR3]

Durrrrrrrrr......
I see.

[Jacks3]

Good. Good.

[RRR3]

Good. Good.
HURR DURR! KOBE!!!!! 5 RINGZ!!!! DURR!

[Friday]

Prime/Peak T-Mac is probably the best player this decade skill wise.
lol....

[The-Legend-24]

Kobe has all the rings, and Tmac and lebron don't have any :cry: :cry:
Stop crying. :oldlol:

[purplch0de]

tmac.... not even close