What is with the Scottie Pippen obsession on this board?

[Smoke117]

Scottie is actually my favorite player but I have made ZERO THREADS on him...oh I"ve responded to more then a few and gotten into discussions about him, but why does he keep coming up? More then half of you aren't even fans that make threads about him...and frankly to make a thread just to hate on a player is a pathetic gesture. I guess as a fan I should take the position that any publicity is good publicity but it pisses me off to see him brought up just so you idiots can belittle him or raise up your own player.

If you can't bring up Jordan or Lebron without bringing up Scottie Pippen then you frankly have very little basketball know how to begin with. It's embarrassing how both of you fans or haters bring up this man. His accomplishments stand on their own and he doesn't need you fan boys (for other players) or haters screwing up his legacy.

[purplch0de]

Didn't read because its a cool story bro.

[G.O.A.T]

Three Things

1) Good stats and resume - had the all-around game, that attracts an elemnt of people.

2) Jordan's sidekick. If your a Jordan lover or hater you need to tear Pippen down or build him up.

3) Kobe Fans - These sickening creatures want to make Pippen as great as possible to explain why Kobe is better than MJ.

[Smoke117]

Three Things

1) Good stats and resume - had the all-around game, that attracts an elemnt of people.

2) Jordan's sidekick. If your a Jordan lover or hater you need to tear Pippen down or build him up.

3) Kobe Fans - These sickening creatures want to make Pippen as great as possible to explain why Kobe is better than MJ.


Indeed. It just sickens me the way things have gone. To chant Scottie Pippen at lebron is supposed to be an insult? To be the greatest perimeter defender of all time, one of the greatest all around players, and a top 30-40 of all time player of all time is an insult? There is something wrong with sport fans when chanting a great players name to another player is supposed to be an insult to him.

[andgar923]

Three Things

1) Good stats and resume - had the all-around game, that attracts an elemnt of people.

2) Jordan's sidekick. If your a Jordan lover or hater you need to tear Pippen down or build him up.

3) Kobe Fans - These sickening creatures want to make Pippen as great as possible to explain why Kobe is better than MJ.


Most of it is a result of no.3.

Only reason it appears as tho MJ fans tear him apart is because Kobe fans (MJ haters) build him up as something that he aint. Pip is def a top 50 of all time HOF player, one of the most versatile players and defenders of all time, but they make him seem as tho he was on the same level as MJ or other greats.

Bill Simmons' 'pyramid' level is a good measuring stick at ranking players.

Kobe fans (MJ haters) build him up as being at the top of the pyramid, when in fact he wasn't, and is properly ranked by Simmons.

Now... I've been accused as being a Pip hater because I stated what was the truth. But again, it was only in response to Kobe fans (MJ haters).

[Da_Realist]

Indeed. It just sickens me the way things have gone. To chant Scottie Pippen at lebron is supposed to be an insult? To be the greatest perimeter defender of all time, one of the greatest all around players, and a top 30-40 of all time player of all time is an insult? There is something wrong with sport fans when chanting a great players name to another player is supposed to be an insult to him.

Totally agree with this. That was classless. Same thing with all the "bald headed Dominique" references.

[97 bulls]

What frustrates me most is when people call him overrated and then refer to his career stats. Career stats should never be used when comparing player cuz they're extremely decieving.

As an example, kareem abdul-jabaars career ppg avg is 24.6. Paul pierce is 22.2. You gonna tell me paul pierce is is on par with jabaar offensively? Pippens ppg would be much higher had he

1. Not played behind jordan his whole career

2. Play limited minutes in his first few 2 years and last 2-3 years. Scottie pippen at his best was a 20/8/6 player on good efficiency and arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever.

[Asukal]

To every Kobe ******ger who brings him up, just agree and respond with a Pippen>Kobe remark. :rockon:

[Miserio]

MJ is the GOAT and Pippen is the GOAT sidekick

[AlphaWolf24]

simple...

Jordan stans always point out how much help any other top 5 player had...and try to make it seem like MJ carried scrubs to 6 titles...

When anyone points out how great Pippen was (or any of MJ's HOF teammates) then they attack and say Pippen was overrated and could never be a franchise star without MJ.

even though everything points out just the opposite.

[G.O.A.T]

simple...

Jordan stans always point out how much help any other top 5 player had...and try to make it seem like MJ carried scrubs to 6 titles...

When anyone points out how great Pippen was (or any of MJ's HOF teammates) then they attack and say Pippen was overrated and could never be a franchise star without MJ.

even though everything points out just the opposite.

example of #3 in it's embryonic stages...

[andgar923]

simple...

Jordan stans always point out how much help any other top 5 player had...and try to make it seem like MJ carried scrubs to 6 titles...

When anyone points out how great Pippen was (or any of MJ's HOF teammates) then they attack and say Pippen was overrated and could never be a franchise star without MJ.

even though everything points out just the opposite.

Misleading.

The truth is, Kobe stans warp reality.

Yes everybody needs a great sidekick to win, but Kobe WAS the sidekick, while MJ wasn't. Even then, the disparity between MJ and Pip is greater than that of other great players and their teammates.

Except of course, between Shaq and Kobe.

Shaq and Kobe's disparity was bigger, since Shaq outperformed Kobe greater.

[Sarcastic]

What frustrates me most is when people call him overrated and then refer to his career stats. Career stats should never be used when comparing player cuz they're extremely decieving.

As an example, kareem abdul-jabaars career ppg avg is 24.6. Paul pierce is 22.2. You gonna tell me paul pierce is is on par with jabaar offensively? Pippens ppg would be much higher had he

1. Not played behind jordan his whole career

2. Play limited minutes in his first few 2 years and last 2-3 years. Scottie pippen at his best was a 20/8/6 player on good efficiency and arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever.

Awful example. KAJ played for 20 seasons, while PP has played for 13 years. If PP gets up to 20 seasons his average will drop to below 17.

[97 bulls]

Three Things

1) Good stats and resume - had the all-around game, that attracts an elemnt of people.

2) Jordan's sidekick. If your a Jordan lover or hater you need to tear Pippen down or build him up.

3) Kobe Fans - These sickening creatures want to make Pippen as great as possible to explain why Kobe is better than MJ.
But what did he say that was off base?

[jlip]

Awful example. KAJ played for 20 seasons, while PP has played for 13 years. If PP gets up to 20 seasons his average will drop to below 17.

Actually that's his point. When the average poster or fan compares career stats they do not take into consideration context such as role, system, and number of seasons played. They just look at the raw stats and compare.

[AlphaWolf24]

example of #3 in it's embryonic stages...


Misleading.

The truth is, Kobe stans warp reality.

Yes everybody needs a great sidekick to win, but Kobe WAS the sidekick, while MJ wasn't. Even then, the disparity between MJ and Pip is greater than that of other great players and their teammates.

Except of course, between Shaq and Kobe.

Shaq and Kobe's disparity was bigger, since Shaq outperformed Kobe greater.


My point proven.....


MJ was barely more valuable then Pete Myers:roll: and dis fool talkin bout "disparity"....

[97 bulls]

Awful example. KAJ played for 20 seasons, while PP has played for 13 years. If PP gets up to 20 seasons his average will drop to below 17.
Exactly. And if you were to X out the years kareem played as an old man, his career ppg would probably be around 28-29.

The parallel is that pippen played 18 years as opposed to the players that are in their prime that they're being compared to.

[bizil]

For one when u factor in defense, Pip is the most skilled SF of all time along with Bron, even over Bird. Pip combined Dr. J athletic ability with many of the skills of Havlicek. He actually followed MJ and Drexler in terms of guys who were freak athletes and awesome all around players. The shit MJ, Drexler, and Pippen were doing hadn't been seen before EVER in bball. So he was a revolutionary player at the SF who has all the accolades besides MVP that you can ask for.

But Pip's place in history is controversial because he wasn't a true number one option like MJ or Clyde. Then he played the SF, which was the deepest position in L right before and even during the start of Pip's run. So we were used to Bird, Doc, Nique, Bernard King,Mullin, English, Aguirre, Dantley, Kiki, Worthy, etc. All of these guys were masters at scoring the ball. All had their unique spin on the SF spot. All were the best at what they did. But out of all the guys I named, the only two that were great all around players were Bird and Mullin. So when Pip got going he was the next great all around SF on the food chain.

So with Pip on a GOAT list, he will rank as high as 4 or 5 for SF's because of the rings and accolades. But in terms of the better player or peak value, many prefer a Batman scorer type like Bernard King or Nique over the better all around player in Pip. Better all around doesn't mean the better player all the time. But the beauty of Pip is if your team needs a PG, SG, or SF u can take Pip and he will do great at all three spots. U can't say that about too many other great SF's. I would say only a Bron, prime GHill, or a Havlicek. Maybe a Barry, Bird, or Mullin cause they had great passing skill. But I don't think they had the pace or motor like G Hill, Pip, or Hondo. Plus Bird, Barry, or Mullin couldn't defend a PG like the other three could.

[andgar923]

Exactly. And if you were to X out the years kareem played as an old man, his career ppg would probably be around 28-29.

The parallel is that pippen played 18 years as opposed to the players that are in their prime that they're being compared to.

The biggest issue I've ever taken is with your insistence that Pip could be transplanted without MJ and have the same career.

When in FACT it has been documented repeatedly, that Pip would've never been the same player without MJ's influence. I've always argued that without MJ pushing him, he'd be struggling to even be an all star.

Yes, Pip had some of the tools needed to be a good player, but plenty of players have those coming into the league. What MJ did, was help Pip develop not just his skills but more importantly his mentality.

Again... you can go ahead and start dismissing me and call me all the names in the book, but those are the FACTS according to coaches, players, and Pip himself.

[AlphaWolf24]

The biggest issue I've ever taken is with your insistence that Pip could be transplanted without MJ and have the same career.

When in FACT it has been documented repeatedly, that Pip would've never been the same player without MJ's influence. I've always argued that without MJ pushing him, he'd be struggling to even be an all star.

Yes, Pip had some of the tools needed to be a good player, but plenty of players have those coming into the league. What MJ did, was help Pip develop not just his skills but more importantly his mentality.

Again... you can go ahead and start dismissing me and call me all the names in the book, but those are the FACTS according to coaches, players, and Pip himself.


So he goes to college as a water boy , works his tail off to just make the practice squad , works his azz off for 2 years straight to go from walk on in college to a top NBA Lottery Pick.....

and MJ made him have a stronig mentality??.....why couldn't he make all his other teammates mentality strong all those losing seasons without Pippen?

if MJ had so many "bad teammates" (that's why it took so long for him to finally win) why couldn't he make them all better like he did with Pippen??:confusedshrug:


Jordan stans??

[andgar923]

So he goes to college as a water boy , works his tail off to just make the practice squad , works his azz off for 2 years straight to go from walk on in college to a top NBA Lottery Pick.....

and MJ made him have a stronig mentality??.....why couldn't he make all his other teammates mentality strong all those losing seasons without Pippen?

if MJ had so many "bad teammates" (that's why it took so long for him to finally win) why couldn't he make them all better like he did with Pippen??:confusedshrug:


Jordan stans??

Of course you wouldn't understand, since Kobe collapses under pressure when it counts the most.

[bizil]

Just because many of us don't think Pip was a true number one option DOESN"T mean he wasn't a great player. Pip was a great player no doubt. But me personally I would rather have Nique, Dr. J, or Bernard King over Pip. But I realize on a GOAT list, Pip will probably be ranked higher than Nique, definitely over King because of injury, and just below Doc. But when it comes to guys like Bird, he's a great all around player and number one option. U can say the same about Hondo, Bron, and Barry at the SF. But after than, I would rather have guys like Nique, King, English, Dantley, and Doc. Or guys today like Durant and Melo.

But Pip is the ultimate swiss army knife who can do anything on a bball court in the pound for pound sense. It's just that he's not a number one option. Think about it, if Pip was a number one option he would be ranked in the top 10-15 GOAT players of all time. Because he has all the accolades you want for a GOAT list. And he revolutionized the SF spot. Most have Pip 30-40 on a GOAT list. That tells you right there something. The reason why Pip is that low is because he wasn't a Batman.

[97 bulls]

The biggest issue I've ever taken is with your insistence that Pip could be transplanted without MJ and have the same career.

When in FACT it has been documented repeatedly, that Pip would've never been the same player without MJ's influence. I've always argued that without MJ pushing him, he'd be struggling to even be an all star.

Yes, Pip had some of the tools needed to be a good player, but plenty of players have those coming into the league. What MJ did, was help Pip develop not just his skills but more importantly his mentality.

Again... you can go ahead and start dismissing me and call me all the names in the book, but those are the FACTS according to coaches, players, and Pip himself.


But I've never argued whether or not jordan mentored pippen. I said name me an nba player or any pro athlete that can't attribute their greatness to someone else? Why does pippen get held to such a standard? Would michael jordan be the same great player without the tuteledge of 2 of the greatest coaches ever in phil jackson and dean smith?

[andgar923]

But I've never argued whether or not jordan mentored pippen. I said name me an nba player or any pro athlete that can't attribute their greatness to someone else? Why does pippen get held to such a standard? Would michael jordan be the same great player without the tuteledge of 2 of the greatest coaches ever in phil jackson and dean smith?

Then I apologize, I must've mistaken you with others.

The reason Pip seems to get scrutinized so much, is because people assume that without MJ he'd still be a top 50 player. They create scenarios that transplant the Pip we all know and respect, to scenarios without MJ. But there's no way that we can take the hall of fame Pip without MJ. Also, the argument is never... take MJ and place him in UNLV. It's always "take prime Pip and put him on X situation".

[97 bulls]

My point proven.....


MJ was barely more valuable then Pete Myers:roll: and dis fool talkin bout "disparity"....
This is really stretching it. We agree both kobe and pippen have played much bigger roles than they get credit for. But the difference between jordan and myers is drastic. When jordan and rodman replaced myers and grant, the bulls went from 55 wins to 72 wins and a championship.

[97 bulls]

Just because many of us don't think Pip was a true number one option DOESN"T mean he wasn't a great player. Pip was a great player no doubt. But me personally I would rather have Nique, Dr. J, or Bernard King over Pip. But I realize on a GOAT list, Pip will probably be ranked higher than Nique, definitely over King because of injury, and just below Doc. But when it comes to guys like Bird, he's a great all around player and number one option. U can say the same about Hondo, Bron, and Barry at the SF. But after than, I would rather have guys like Nique, King, English, Dantley, and Doc. Or guys today like Durant and Melo.

But Pip is the ultimate swiss army knife who can do anything on a bball court in the pound for pound sense. It's just that he's not a number one option. Think about it, if Pip was a number one option he would be ranked in the top 10-15 GOAT players of all time. Because he has all the accolades you want for a GOAT list. And he revolutionized the SF spot. Most have Pip 30-40 on a GOAT list. That tells you right there something. The reason why Pip is that low is because he wasn't a Batman.
You really need to get away from the batman 1st option stuff. It a lot more involved to leading a team than just being a first option. Bill russell, kevin garnett, ben wallace, dwight howard aren't first option type players, but they were the most important players on their teams.

And why couldn't pippen be a first option? He was on a 55 win team. And they probably would've had the best record had pippen not missed 10 games.

[Jacks3]

Of course you wouldn't understand, since Kobe collapses under pressure when it counts the most.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

What an idiot.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

MJ was barely more valuable then Pete Myers:roll: and dis fool talkin bout "disparity"....
this.

[EricForman]

97 Bulls i hope you're paying attention to this thread and seeing what Kobe trolls claim "Jordan barely more valuable than Pete Meyers".

Keep that in mind next time you claim Jordan fans are worst or more delusional or whatever.

[97 bulls]

Then I apologize, I must've mistaken you with others.

The reason Pip seems to get scrutinized so much, is because people assume that without MJ he'd still be a top 50 player. They create scenarios that transplant the Pip we all know and respect, to scenarios without MJ. But there's no way that we can take the hall of fame Pip without MJ. Also, the argument is never... take MJ and place him in UNLV. It's always "take prime Pip and put him on X situation".
Because pippen never got the chance, a legit chance to see what he could do as a first option. And based on what he did in 94 and 95, the possibility is definately there.

[EricForman]

You really need to get away from the batman 1st option stuff. It a lot more involved to leading a team than just being a first option. Bill russell, kevin garnett, ben wallace, dwight howard aren't first option type players, but they were the most important players on their teams.

And why couldn't pippen be a first option? He was on a 55 win team. And they probably would've had the best record had pippen not missed 10 games.


Pip coulda been first option, coulda been a franchise player. But do you agree that he'd be an inferior first option/franchise player than Jordan, or Kobe, or Shaq, or Duncan (aka the pantheon of legends), etc?

If you answer no, then I know all I need to know about your Pippen homerness.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls i hope you're paying attention to this thread and seeing what Kobe trolls claim "Jordan barely more valuable than Pete Meyers".

Keep that in mind next time you claim Jordan fans are worst or more delusional or whatever.
Lol I see. Set em straight.

[97 bulls]

Pip coulda been first option, coulda been a franchise player. But do you agree that he'd be an inferior first option/franchise player than Jordan, or Kobe, or Shaq, or Duncan (aka the pantheon of legends), etc?

If you answer no, then I know all I need to know about your Pippen homerness.
Yes, I don't think pippen would've been a top 10 type franchise player. I do see him being able to lead a team to a championship along with winning an mvp and a dpoy. But not multiple

I always say the reason the bulls were able to win 70 games is cuz they had 2 franchise players. And one of them is the greatest ever.

[jlauber]

Of course, on ISH, it is impossible for there to be an appreciation of greatness, without ripping another great player. IMHO, Pippen was at least a top-30 player. I don't agree with those that say he could have been a 25-30 ppg scorer, though. He had his opportunities without MJ, and was a 21-22 ppg scorer. Still, 22-9-6 seasons, along with exceptional defense, are rare.

But, MJ was a FIVE time MVP, and a SIX time FMVP. I understand that Pippen complimented MJ, and was a valuable contributor to those six titles, but clearly, Jordan was the major reason.

As for any Pippen-Kobe comparisons...well, there really aren't any. Kobe was a better all-around player, and a FAR better scorer. There have only been a handful of players in NBA history that were as unstoppable as Kobe was on the offensive end,... and Pippen wasn't close to being one of them.

Kobe-MJ? Here again...just use common sense. As great as Kobe has been...and he is a Top-10 player all-time...it pales in comparison to MJ's. And, while Bryant's career is not over, and he may very well win one or two more rings, it is STILL highly unlikely that he would be be considered a greater player (probably a 1% chance at best.) So what? Magic, Bird, Russell, et. al, had brilliant careers. Do we have to constantly compare them to MJ's career? I remember Magic's game six in '80...one of the most enjoyable sporting events of my lifetime. There was nothing that MJ did that will ever erase that from my memory. Same with Walton's '73 NCAA Finals, Wilt's '72 game six of the WCF's (and game five of the Finals), Shaq's dominance from '00 to '02, Kareem's (Alcindor's) "revenge" game against Hayes and Houston in the '68 NCAA semis, and Kobe's playoff runs in '09 and '10.

I have no problem with those that claim MJ as the GOAT. I just believe that there are several other players who also have a case. And I doubt that anyone will ever change my mind.

In any case, it is completely ridiculous to trash a great player in an attempt to build up another's career.

[EricForman]

I have a question, does anyone really pay attention to anything the Alpha Wolf, Jacks3, The Logo, Eliteballer say? LOL those guys jump into every thread saying something exaggerated and disappears.

[Nevaeh]

Of course, on ISH, it is impossible for there to be an appreciation of greatness, without ripping another great player. IMHO, Pippen was at least a top-30 player. I don't agree with those that say he could have been a 25-30 ppg scorer, though. He had his opportunities without MJ, and was a 21-22 ppg scorer. Still, 22-9-6 seasons, along with exceptional defense, are rare.

But, MJ was a FIVE time MVP, and a SIX time FMVP. I understand that Pippen complimented MJ, and was a valuable contributor to those six titles, but clearly, Jordan was the major reason.

As for any Pippen-Kobe comparisons...well, there really aren't any. Kobe was a better all-around player, and a FAR better scorer. There have only been a handful of players in NBA history that were as unstoppable as Kobe was on the offensive end,... and Pippen wasn't close to being one of them.

Kobe-MJ? Here again...just use common sense. As great as Kobe has been...and he is a Top-10 player all-time...it pales in comparison to MJ's. And, while Bryant's career is not over, and he may very well win one or two more rings, it is STILL highly unlikely that he would be be considered a greater player (probably a 1% chance at best.) So what? Magic, Bird, Russell, et. al, had brilliant careers. Do we have to constantly compare them to MJ's career? I remember Magic's game six in '80...one of the most enjoyable sporting events of my lifetime. There was nothing that MJ did that will ever erase that from my memory. Same with Walton's '73 NCAA Finals, Wilt's '72 game six of the WCF's (and game five of the Finals), Shaq's dominance from '00 to '02, Kareem's (Alcindor's) "revenge" game against Hayes and Houston in the '68 NCAA semis, and Kobe's playoff runs in '09 and '10.

I have no problem with those that claim MJ as the GOAT. I just believe that there are several other players who also have a case. And I doubt that anyone will ever change my mind.

In any case, it is completely ridiculous to trash a great player in an attempt to build up another's career.

Hung up the phone right there (but still read some of your post). You, of all people should be the last person to talk about appreciating a certain player without bringing down another one.:oldlol:

Bottom line is, Scottie Pippen was a Great Player, who was never given the chance to prove his worth as a Franchise Player over a long stretch, nor did he command the fear and respect of a Franchise Player when he was given a chance to be a team leader. Scottie= GOAT Sidekick. It is what it is.

[Toizumi]

I have a question, does anyone really pay attention to anything the Alpha Wolf, Jacks3, The Logo, Eliteballer say? LOL those guys jump into every thread saying something exaggerated and disappears.

Thing is, it's posters like them that made the OP start this thread. Quality posters and people with NBA knowledge and love for the game know how to appreciate Pippen, Kobe, Jordan without trying to discredit one of them to make the other look better.

Pippen is my favorite player of all time, just because I enjoyed watching him so much. He had a very smooth game and was a pleasure to watch on both ends of the court. One of the best players of all time and eventhough he wasn't the first point forward, he was still a very unique player. He has a lot of fans because of this. Too bad some people only like him because his impact in games can be used to discredit Jordan's career :facepalm

[Collie]

I have a question, does anyone really pay attention to anything the Alpha Wolf, Jacks3, The Logo, Eliteballer say? LOL those guys jump into every thread saying something exaggerated and disappears.

They're on my blocked list so no.

Anyway, Pip is what he is. A top 30 player who was blessed to have played with MJ and the Bulls, but who was also good enough to be a big star on any other team.

[NumberSix]

Indeed. It just sickens me the way things have gone. To chant Scottie Pippen at lebron is supposed to be an insult? To be the greatest perimeter defender of all time, one of the greatest all around players, and a top 30-40 of all time player of all time is an insult? There is something wrong with sport fans when chanting a great players name to another player is supposed to be an insult to him.
Yeah, it's disgusting that people use "Pippen" as an insult.

[Teanett]

jordan and pippen are my two favourite players.
everything they won they did it together.
both would have been successful on their own but they needed each other to be great.
i dont see how you can like one and not the other.

[Asukal]

Yeah, it's disgusting that people use "Pippen" as an insult.

Yeah, Kobe was Pippen-like in his first three rings. A great compliment to Shaq. :cheers:

[Doctor Rivers]

I think people take things far too seriously here when you have posters like andgar923 and Nevaeh who seem to have done psychological studies on the Kobe stans.

[Dragonyeuw]

Three Things


3) Kobe Fans - These sickening creatures want to make Pippen as great as possible to explain why Kobe is better than MJ.

Agreed. Pippen is the lightning rod between the Jordan and Kobe camps, depending on the argument he's either overrated( to prop up Jordan) or underrated( to prop up Kobe). It's sickening.... I'm a huge Jordan fan and I can fully appreciate the value and intangibles Pippen brought to those Bulls title teams.

[aau]

Keep that in mind next time you claim Jordan fans are worst or more delusional or whatever.

you are

watch this

[Boston C's]

Three Things

1) Good stats and resume - had the all-around game, that attracts an elemnt of people.

2) Jordan's sidekick. If your a Jordan lover or hater you need to tear Pippen down or build him up.

3) Kobe Fans - These sickening creatures want to make Pippen as great as possible to explain why Kobe is better than MJ.

This... especially number 3

[Nevaeh]

I think people take things far too seriously here when you have posters like andgar923 and Nevaeh who seem to have done psychological studies on the Kobe stans.

And when exactly have I done "psychological studies" on Kobe Stans? If they post bullsh!t, I call them out on posting bullsh!t. You're not even a Kobe Fan, so why the hell do you care so much? Besides, the last 2 threads I posted in were dealing with Pip anyway.

[bond10]

Misleading.

The truth is, Kobe stans warp reality.

Yes everybody needs a great sidekick to win, but Kobe WAS the sidekick, while MJ wasn't. Even then, the disparity between MJ and Pip is greater than that of other great players and their teammates.

Except of course, between Shaq and Kobe.

Shaq and Kobe's disparity was bigger, since Shaq outperformed Kobe greater.


Look at what you wrote. Specifically the contradicting piece of junk in bold.

[aau]

[QUOTE=andgar923Only reason it appears as tho MJ fans tear him apartQUOTE]

as if that's possible with a

Top 10 Player - 5 Time Champion

you jordan fans are rediculous . . . you act like he's the
only mf to ever lace'm up . . . . don't kid yourselves
you're only tearing yourselves apart . . trust that
nobody cares what you think about the guy

you've been proven wrong since forever!!!

want proof King Kobe-haters?

make a list of all the times you've been proven right
and put it here . . . . you can start with

"he'll never sniff the top 10"

and then touch on

.

The Heir Apparent

did he NOT live up to this billing?

explain how this acclaim was totally undeserving

20 year old kid with no college experience

first ever HS to PRO Guard co-leading team to 3-peat
before LEADING a team without shaq to 3 straight
finals and consecutive fmvp . . . do you really
think you can rip this kid apart . . . lmao

that's mike tyson ludicrous

you guys are nuts

.

GOAT-repellant . . . . seems redundant, no?

GOAT perimeter defender . . . . really??!!

.

Silly at Best!

[bond10]

I wonder why Pippen didn't just leave the Bulls in 95 when MJ came back. If really wanted to be first option/leader/batman/alpha/dpoy/the_face_of_a_championship_team

[97 bulls]

I wonder why Pippen didn't just leave the Bulls in 95 when MJ came back. If really wanted to be first option/leader/batman/alpha/dpoy/the_face_of_a_championship_team
Why does he have to leave? Pippen never had a problem with playing alongside jordan. He just wanted to be appreciated. And acknowledged. And he should've won dpoy in 95.

[aau]

I wonder why Pippen didn't just leave the Bulls in 95 when MJ came back. If really wanted to be first option/leader/batman/alpha/dpoy/the_face_of_a_championship_team

.

not sure if his deal was up but if it wasn't
how do you just walk from a contract

and according to the man himself

he would not have come back if pippen wasn't there

[bizil]

You really need to get away from the batman 1st option stuff. It a lot more involved to leading a team than just being a first option. Bill russell, kevin garnett, ben wallace, dwight howard aren't first option type players, but they were the most important players on their teams.

And why couldn't pippen be a first option? He was on a 55 win team. And they probably would've had the best record had pippen not missed 10 games.

Your love affair with Pip is getting outta hand buddy. If you read my post I said Pip on a GOAT list for SF's will likely be ranked anywhere from 4-6. I've said he was a revolutionary player that's the most skilled SF of all time (with Bron) when u factor in defense. But it's clear that Pip is not a true number one option guy. A true number one option is a guy that can put a team on his back and carry the scoring load. They are clutch and can turn it up a notch or two when needed. A true number one option are guys that other teams game plan to stop. And their scoring prowess scares other teams.

I feel a student of the game knows a number one option when they see it. Some PG's like Magic and Isiah were number one option type guys even though they were PG's. They can will a team to victory through scoring. Take a guy like Reggie Miller. He might not have been as dominant scoring as MJ,Nique, Bird, or other great scorers of his era. But when the game was on the line, he would will a team through scoring. Reggie was a Batman more than Pip ever will be.

U mention KG and Howard. Well KG showed enough of a willingness to score and put a team on his back to be considered a Batman. KG is miles ahead of Pip in that respect. Pip has the added bonus of being a perimeter player with the ball in his hands a lot, hell bascially as a point forward-point guard. So he could pick and choose when he wanted to takeover cause the ball was in his hands in the season without MJ. He didn't show enough of a willingness to be the man scoring the ball. Sure he had an awesome season. Sure he led the Bulls to 55 wins. But that team needed Pip to do more scoring to take the next step. A REAL BATMAN STEPS UP THE SCORING AS MUCH AS IT NEEDS TO BE STEPPED UP! That's why great PG's like Isiah, Magic, Big O, Clyde, Nash, Paul, etc turn up the scoring when needed and get lines like 30 + points to go with 15+ assists. Pip didnt show that enough. These are facts.

[97 bulls]

Your love affair with Pip is getting outta hand buddy. If you read my post I said Pip on a GOAT list for SF's will likely be ranked anywhere from 4-6. I've said he was a revolutionary player that's the most skilled SF of all time (with Bron) when u factor in defense. But it's clear that Pip is not a true number one option guy. A true number one option is a guy that can put a team on his back and carry the scoring load. They are clutch and can turn it up a notch or two when needed. A true number one option are guys that other teams game plan to stop. And their scoring prowess scares other teams.
I thought I covered this the last time you brought it up. You obviously don't care about facts otherwise this wouldn't be an issue.


I feel a student of the game knows a number one option when they see it. Some PG's like Magic and Isiah were number one option type guys even though they were PG's. They can will a team to victory through scoring. Take a guy like Reggie Miller. He might not have been as dominant scoring as MJ,Nique, Bird, or other great scorers of his era. But when the game was on the line, he would will a team through scoring. Reggie was a Batman more than Pip ever will be.
You know biz, I think your making a common mistake. Your trying to say that a number 1 option "batman" as you put it, is the same as being the best player on the team. I'm sorry bro, but your wrong. Magic was never a number 1 option on the lakers. In the early 80s it was kareem then it was passed on to worthy. Although magic did lead the lakers in scoring in 87 I believe. He could score, but he was not the "number 1 option".


U mention KG and Howard. Well KG showed enough of a willingness to score and put a team on his back to be considered a Batman. KG is miles ahead of Pip in that respect.
Another untruth. Garnett had developed a reputation for shying away from pressure. He wouldn't even look for his shot. I rememebr that series in 04 vs the lakers. It was sprewell and friggn troy hudson that had to try to finish games. You could tell he didn't want it.


Pip has the added bonus of being a perimeter player with the ball in his hands a lot, hell bascially as a point forward-point guard. So he could pick and choose when he wanted to takeover cause the ball was in his hands in the season without MJ. He didn't show enough of a willingness to be the man scoring the ball. Sure he had an awesome season. Sure he led the Bulls to 55 wins. But that team needed Pip to do more scoring to take the next step. A REAL BATMAN STEPS UP THE SCORING AS MUCH AS IT NEEDS TO BE STEPPED UP! That's why great PG's like Isiah, Magic, Big O, Clyde, Nash, Paul, etc turn up the scoring when needed and get lines like 30 + points to go with 15+ assists. Pip didnt show that enough.
I honestly don't know what more you want from pippen. That knicks series was a tough one. And pippen did avg 23 ppg. It probably would've been 25 but he had a terrible game where he just didn't have it. And it drug his % and scoring avg wayyy down. And unlike most stars, pippen had to do everything. This is the biggest point you miss. How many batmen had to be the teams best everything? Not magic, he wasn't asked to be the lakers best defender. Not thomas, he too was asked to be the teams best defender. Not drexler, he wasn't asked to run thee offense. Not garnett, he didn't have to run the offense. Nash, paul none of them were asked, no expected to do what pippen had to do for his team. What's more biz..... the 94 bulls just weren't good enough. They barely beat the knicks in 93 in 7 games. Now they're supposed to best the knicks without jordan?

These are facts.
I'm sure all these points will fall on blind eyes cuz when this topic comes up again, youll be saying the same things. In spite of the facts and circumstances. What does this say about you?

[AlphaWolf24]

I'm sure all these points will fall on blind eyes cuz when this topic comes up again, youll be saying the same things. In spite of the facts and circumstances. What does this say about you?



I honestly don't know what more you want from pippen. That knicks series was a tough one. And pippen did avg 23 ppg. It probably would've been 25 but he had a terrible game where he just didn't have it. And it drug his % and scoring avg wayyy down. And unlike most stars, pippen had to do everything. This is the biggest point you miss. How many batmen had to be the teams best everything? Not magic, he wasn't asked to be the lakers best defender. Not thomas, he too was asked to be the teams best defender. Not drexler, he wasn't asked to run thee offense. Not garnett, he didn't have to run the offense. Nash, paul none of them were asked, no expected to do what pippen had to do for his team. What's more biz..... the 94 bulls just weren't good enough. They barely beat the knicks in 93 in 7 games. Now they're supposed to best the knicks without jordan?


OWNT him beyond all recognition.....


and PS: to all the Jordan legacy police.....I said he was slightly more valuable to the win/loss column then Pete Myers, (yes I know it's not 100% true)...I get called names, yet when Kobe is putting up 29PPG 6REB 6AST championship runs at 21 - 22 years old haterz call him a "_______" fill in randomhater name here"(even though he was the first option in crunchtime and as I have shown numerous times widely viewed as the best allaround player as early as 2001)..and none of the "Bias elititist" fans ay anything.....

how convenient....

[EricForman]

and PS: to all the Jordan legacy police.....I said he was slightly more valuable to the win/loss column then Pete Myers, (yes I know it's not 100% true)...I get called names, yet when Kobe is putting up 29PPG 6REB 6AST championship runs at 21 - 22 years old haterz call him a "_______" fill in randomhater name here"(even though he was the first option in crunchtime and as I have shown numerous times widely viewed as the best allaround player as early as 2001)..and none of the "Bias elititist" fans ay anything.....

how convenient....

Are you really asking why people clown you and dismiss your opinions? It's because you're a troll. You, Nick Young, TheLogo, Jacks3, the Mount Rushmore of trolls.

I used to think of those little dolls with the crazy hair when I hear trolls. Now I think of you and Nick Young. Poor real Nick Young of the Washington Wizards.

[bizil]

I'm sure all these points will fall on blind eyes cuz when this topic comes up again, youll be saying the same things. In spite of the facts and circumstances. What does this say about you?

For one I said Magic had the HEART and ABILITY to be a Batman. Magic was a Batman, but he played a lot his career with Kareem. It was two alpha dogs on the same team. U can have more than one Batman on one team. Magic in his rookie year proved he was a Batman! LMBAO How dare u question Earvin in that aspect! Secondly the best player on a team ISN'T always a Batman. If anything U are making that mistake by labeling Pip a Batman. U keep referring to the Bulls 55 win team in giving Pippen props. U keep glossing over the fact that Pip needed to SCORE MORE POINTS FOR THE BULLS TO WIN A RING! It's the damn truth! Replace MJ with Scottie on that team. It wouldn't have came down to that Hue Hollins call. MJ would have given that team the scoring punch it needed. Pip only averaged like a point more than his best previous scoring average.

KG showed more of a willingness to takeover a game scoring than Pip. I'm not saying KG is on the level of Dirk, Malone, Barkley, or even Duncan terms of that. But he showed enough heart to takeover. Secondly, KG did play with guys such as Cassell and Sprewell. So he could defer some. Who did Pip have to defer to on the Bulls that year without MJ? Horace Grant? lol Pete Myers? lol And Phil showed more confidence in Kukoc in clutch moments than Pip. Toni was a nice, maybe even borderline All Star player. Cassell and Spree were regarded as top ten players at their positions for many years. Many feel it's a travesty Cassell only made one All Star team.

So buddy I just owned u! Looking at Pip's supporting cast, he needed to do more scoring. KG on Minny and Boston had superior talent than Pip had on that Bulls team without MJ. Which means KG can be like Duncan and defer some. Pip on that Bulls team got them very far given the talent on that team. No denying it. But if Pip was a true Batman, he woulda got them even farther.

[97 bulls]

For one I said Magic had the HEART and ABILITY to be a Batman. Magic was a Batman, but he played a lot his career with Kareem. It was two alpha dogs on the same team. U can have more than one Batman on one team. Magic in his rookie year proved he was a Batman! LMBAO How dare u question Earvin in that aspect! Secondly the best player on a team ISN'T always a Batman. If anything U are making that mistake by labeling Pip a Batman. U keep referring to the Bulls 55 win team in giving Pippen props. U keep glossing over the fact that Pip needed to SCORE MORE POINTS FOR THE BULLS TO WIN A RING! It's the damn truth! Replace MJ with Scottie on that team. It wouldn't have came down to that Hue Hollins call. MJ would have given that team the scoring punch it needed. Pip only averaged like a point more than his best previous scoring average.

KG showed more of a willingness to takeover a game scoring than Pip. I'm not saying KG is on the level of Dirk, Malone, Barkley, or even Duncan terms of that. But he showed enough heart to takeover. Secondly, KG did play with guys such as Cassell and Sprewell. So he could defer some. Who did Pip have to defer to on the Bulls that year without MJ? Horace Grant? lol Pete Myers? lol And Phil showed more confidence in Kukoc in clutch moments than Pip. Toni was a nice, maybe even borderline All Star player. Cassell and Spree were regarded as top ten players at their positions for many years. Many feel it's a travesty Cassell only made one All Star team.

So buddy I just owned u! Looking at Pip's supporting cast, he needed to do more scoring. KG on Minny and Boston had superior talent than Pip had on that Bulls team without MJ. Which means KG can be like Duncan and defer some. Pip on that Bulls team got them very far given the talent on that team. No denying it. But if Pip was a true Batman, he woulda got them even farther.
Looking at the team pippen was on, he needed to do everything. Not just score. This is what your failing to realize. Your putting to much stock into scoring the ball. Maybe if he had someone to help him out, he could've scored more. You don't think you expend energy playing defense, rebounding running the offense, playing full court press, trap, playing passing lanes, etc? If you expected pippen to do all that and then still drop 30 a game then he's not batman, he's superman.

And please stop with the toni was a borderline all-star player nonsense. HE WAS A ROOKIE in 94.

And jackson going with kukoc wasn't an indication he had no faith in pippen. In 92 during the nba finals game 6, jackson sat jordan down along with all the starters with the bulls down 15 in the fourth, and put pippen and four reserves on the floor. Pippen responded with 11 pts in the quarter and led the bulls back from being down 15. Jackson had plenty of faith in pippen.

Think about the situation, the team has 1.8 seconds to get a shot off. I'm gonna admit, kukoc even as a rookie had a better jumpshot than pippen. And he's 6"11 to boot. So he could shoot over the defense. With 1.8 seconds left, a jumpshot is all the bulls had time for.

I honestly question how much you know about basketball. I think you look more at stats. I remember listing a few games that pippen took over when we discussed this before. But you never responded back, why?

[Teanett]

97bulls>>>the rest of the posters in this thread

[Smoke117]

For one I said Magic had the HEART and ABILITY to be a Batman. Magic was a Batman, but he played a lot his career with Kareem. It was two alpha dogs on the same team. U can have more than one Batman on one team. Magic in his rookie year proved he was a Batman! LMBAO How dare u question Earvin in that aspect! Secondly the best player on a team ISN'T always a Batman. If anything U are making that mistake by labeling Pip a Batman. U keep referring to the Bulls 55 win team in giving Pippen props. U keep glossing over the fact that Pip needed to SCORE MORE POINTS FOR THE BULLS TO WIN A RING! It's the damn truth! Replace MJ with Scottie on that team. It wouldn't have came down to that Hue Hollins call. MJ would have given that team the scoring punch it needed. Pip only averaged like a point more than his best previous scoring average.

KG showed more of a willingness to takeover a game scoring than Pip. I'm not saying KG is on the level of Dirk, Malone, Barkley, or even Duncan terms of that. But he showed enough heart to takeover. Secondly, KG did play with guys such as Cassell and Sprewell. So he could defer some. Who did Pip have to defer to on the Bulls that year without MJ? Horace Grant? lol Pete Myers? lol And Phil showed more confidence in Kukoc in clutch moments than Pip. Toni was a nice, maybe even borderline All Star player. Cassell and Spree were regarded as top ten players at their positions for many years. Many feel it's a travesty Cassell only made one All Star team.

So buddy I just owned u! Looking at Pip's supporting cast, he needed to do more scoring. KG on Minny and Boston had superior talent than Pip had on that Bulls team without MJ. Which means KG can be like Duncan and defer some. Pip on that Bulls team got them very far given the talent on that team. No denying it. But if Pip was a true Batman, he woulda got them even farther.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Toni Kukoc was a borderline all star in 94 like Robert Horry is a hofer. You got jokes.

[RRR3]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Toni Kukoc was a borderline all star in 94 like Robert Horry is a hofer. You got jokes.
But....but...but...Horry has 7 rings!!!!!!

[Teanett]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Toni Kukoc was a borderline all star in 94 like Robert Horry is a hofer. You got jokes.

smoke+bulls97>>>the rest
:rockon:

[bizil]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Toni Kukoc was a borderline all star in 94 like Robert Horry is a hofer. You got jokes.

I'm talking Kukoc at his best. I realize Toni in '94 wasn't at that level. That just proves my point even more that Pip had to do more on that Bulls team to win. And no excuses. U saw what MJ was doing BEFORE Pip was even on Bulls. And u saw what MJ was doing while Pip's was Rodman's bitch. MJ manned up and gave the Bulls the scoring punch it needed.

[97 bulls]

I'm talking Kukoc at his best. I realize Toni in '94 wasn't at that level. That just proves my point even more that Pip had to do more on that Bulls team to win. And no excuses. U saw what MJ was doing BEFORE Pip was even on Bulls. And u saw what MJ was doing while Pip's was Rodman's bitch. MJ manned up and gave the Bulls the scoring punch it needed.
Say what? I knew you was all about stats man, what did THE BULLS do before pip?

[AlphaWolf24]

Are you really asking why people clown you and dismiss your opinions? It's because you're a troll. You, Nick Young, TheLogo, Jacks3, the Mount Rushmore of trolls.

I used to think of those little dolls with the crazy hair when I hear trolls. Now I think of you and Nick Young. Poor real Nick Young of the Washington Wizards.


Who's dismissing my opinion....I get 10 - 20 comments on my youtube page a day! from people who agree with everything I say...

many posters here recognize game...and the ones who "dismiss" were probably the same ones posing as me and making up fake accounts with my my name to cause trouble...


most of the "AlphaWolf" posters pre 2010 were not even me .....just other Wolf's posting under my name.



Quit Hating and apply yourself son.

[bizil]

Looking at the team pippen was on, he needed to do everything. Not just score. This is what your failing to realize. Your putting to much stock into scoring the ball. Maybe if he had someone to help him out, he could've scored more. You don't think you expend energy playing defense, rebounding running the offense, playing full court press, trap, playing passing lanes, etc? If you expected pippen to do all that and then still drop 30 a game then he's not batman, he's superman.

And please stop with the toni was a borderline all-star player nonsense. HE WAS A ROOKIE in 94.

And jackson going with kukoc wasn't an indication he had no faith in pippen. In 92 during the nba finals game 6, jackson sat jordan down along with all the starters with the bulls down 15 in the fourth, and put pippen and four reserves on the floor. Pippen responded with 11 pts in the quarter and led the bulls back from being down 15. Jackson had plenty of faith in pippen.

Think about the situation, the team has 1.8 seconds to get a shot off. I'm gonna admit, kukoc even as a rookie had a better jumpshot than pippen. And he's 6"11 to boot. So he could shoot over the defense. With 1.8 seconds left, a jumpshot is all the bulls had time for.

I honestly question how much you know about basketball. I think you look more at stats. I remember listing a few games that pippen took over when we discussed this before. But you never responded back, why?

I'm talking about Kukoc at his best. I'm not talking '94 Kukoc. I was just givin Toni props for his talent as a whole. But even then, Toni was a rare player at 6'11 doing the things he could do. Kukoc made the all rookie team and looked very promising.

We can agree to disagree but DON't question my hoop knowledge. All I'm simply saying is that Pip wasn't a true number one option type guy. MJ had to do everything for the Bulls back in the day before Pip even showed up as well. MJ showed the willingness to man up and and be a true Batman while Pip was getting bitched out by Detroit and Rodman. U keep denying the fact that the Bulls team needed more punch while MJ was gone. I don't wanna hear that Pip had to do everything shit. Perimeter guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Wade, a prime TMac, or a prime G Hill woulda got that Bulls team farther. And it u deny that, then I feel u must be Pip secret lover or somethin! lol

[Jacks3]

Have to defend Pippen against the ridiculous Jordan stans like Guy,Loco, Eric Forman etc who seek to downgrade him just to make their boy look better. It's really quite pathetic.

[bizil]

Say what? I knew you was all about stats man, what did THE BULLS do before pip?

Once again I'm not denying Pip's greatness. But there was a point in time where MJ had to do EVERYTHING for the Bulls too. Like when he lit up Boston for 63 in his second year. And he took more of a willingness to DOMINATE scoring. I'm tired of going in circles with u. Most of the true greats knew at times they had to DOMINATE scoring. Pip in my book wasn't on that level. His greatness was his great all around game. As I've said, u can be and HOFer without have the killer instinct scoring wise. U don't have to have the killer instinct the way MJ or Kobe does it. U can do it the way Reggie did it. Or do it the way Magic, Isiah, or Clyde did it from point. It 's about being a closer. Pip was NEVER a closer. I'm talking scoring closer.

[AlphaWolf24]

I'm talking about Kukoc at his best. I'm not talking '94 Kukoc. I was just givin Toni props for his talent as a whole. But even then, Toni was a rare player at 6'11 doing the things he could do. Kukoc made the all rookie team and looked very promising.

We can agree to disagree but DON't question my hoop knowledge. All I'm simply saying is that Pip wasn't a true number one option type guy. MJ had to do everything for the Bulls back in the day before Pip even showed up as well. MJ showed the willingness to man up and and be a true Batman while Pip was getting bitched out by Detroit and Rodman. U keep denying the fact that the Bulls team needed more punch while MJ was gone. I don't wanna hear that Pip had to do everything shit. Perimeter guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Wade, a prime TMac, or a prime G Hill woulda got that Bulls team farther. And it u deny that, then I feel u must be Pip secret lover or somethin! lol


WOW , so much FAIL....

so did you just say a player who came in 3rd in MVP Voting and was only the 2nd player in over 30 years to lead his team in every statistical catagory and is widely viewed as one of the greatest allaround players ever isn't a true "#1 option guy"??..

see this is what I'm talking about...why would you say TMAC off all people would do a better job then Scottie Pippen?....

when has TMAC ever shown the ability to be a great leader on and off the court?...his teams failed miserably.....but you and many others just look at one aspect , Grant Hill has had so many issues with Health , yet you Have Scottie Pippen who is one of the greatest winners in NBA History and even without MJ he has put together a greater winning resume then Hill and TMAC combined!!!


yet here you are saying he wouldn't be as good of a #1 option???....when absolutly Nothing backs up that staement...in fact just the opposite...


Take TMAC's highlight scoring....you can have it..I'll Take PIPPEN's game all dey everydey and twice on Sunday....

see you in the Conference Finals...

[AlphaWolf24]

Once again I'm not denying Pip's greatness. But there was a point in time where MJ had to do EVERYTHING for the Bulls too. Like when he lit up Boston for 63 in his second year. And he took more of a willingness to DOMINATE scoring. I'm tired of going in circles with u. Most of the true greats knew at times they had to DOMINATE scoring. Pip in my book wasn't on that level. His greatness was his great all around game. As I've said, u can be and HOFer without have the killer instinct scoring wise. U don't have to have the killer instinct the way MJ or Kobe does it. U can do it the way Reggie did it. Or do it the way Magic, Isiah, or Clyde did it from point. It 's about being a closer. Pip was NEVER a closer. I'm talking scoring closer.


If you followed basketball back in 1986 then you would know that one of the strategies in the first 2 games of the playoff's was to let Jordan score and get his...Bird and Mchale both knew this....they knew if MJ jacked up a ton of shots and scored alot of points then Boston would easily win.

did they expect him to score 63 points and play out of his mind in Game 2??...probably not, but in Game 3 in Chicago they made it a point to try to slow his scoring...and they did...in the close out game he only scored 5 points in the 2nd half.....I think he finished with 15 - 19 points..

Jordan 0 - 6 swept 2 years in a row...if that's dominating...then your doing it all wrong.

[Nevaeh]

If you followed basketball back in 1986 then you would know that one of the strategies in the first 2 games of the playoff's was to let Jordan score and get his...Bird and Mchale both knew this....they knew if MJ jacked up a ton of shots and scored alot of points then Boston would easily win.

did they expect him to score 63 points and play out of his mind in Game 2??...probably not, but in Game 3 in Chicago they made it a point to try to slow his scoring...and they did...in the close out game he only scored 5 points in the 2nd half.....I think he finished with 15 - 19 points..

Jordan 0 - 6 swept 2 years in a row...if that's dominating...then your doing it all wrong.

Well, even in losing you had no doubt about who the Leader of the Bulls were back then. You also had no doubt about MJ's fire and determination to do whatever he could to keep his team competitive against the EVENTUAL NBA Champions with no real help. He was also never the second best Player on his team at any time either. Only a few Legends can say that.

[bizil]

WOW , so much FAIL....

so did you just say a player who came in 3rd in MVP Voting and was only the 2nd player in over 30 years to lead his team in every statistical catagory and is widely viewed as one of the greatest allaround players ever isn't a true "#1 option guy"??..

see this is what I'm talking about...why would you say TMAC off all people would do a better job then Scottie Pippen?....

when has TMAC ever shown the ability to be a great leader on and off the court?...his teams failed miserably.....but you and many others just look at one aspect , Grant Hill has had so many issues with Health , yet you Have Scottie Pippen who is one of the greatest winners in NBA History and even without MJ he has put together a greater winning resume then Hill and TMAC combined!!!


yet here you are saying he wouldn't be as good of a #1 option???....when absolutly Nothing backs up that staement...in fact just the opposite...


Take TMAC's highlight scoring....you can have it..I'll Take PIPPEN's game all dey everydey and twice on Sunday....

see you in the Conference Finals...

Wow u guys get emotional when it comes to Scottie. I NEVER SAID HE WASN'T A GREAT PLAYER! I said he wasn't a true scoring closer and a guy u want to carry the scoring load. It's wasn't his mentality and that's okay. As much heat as Lebron catches, he shows more of a willingness to do this before Pip. This is the truth when it comes to Pippen. If your team is down by 9 with the game on the line at the 3:00 mark, who do u want willing the team to victory with clutch shots, Pip or Bernard King? Of course Bernard King. If your team needs a true closer or Batman scorer to complete the team who would u rather all, Durant or Pip? U take Durant!

If your teams needs a defensive stopper and a swiss army knife who's a great player then u take Scottie over damn near any SF EVER! That's Scottie's greatness. But he's not a true scoring closer. I define a Batman as a guy who can carry the scoring load, come up big in the clutch, and close out a game. U guys need to keep in mind GREAT OFFENSE BEATS GREAT DEFENSE!

[Asukal]

Well, even in losing you had no doubt about who the Leader of the Bulls were back then. You also had no doubt about MJ's fire and determination to do whatever he could to keep his team competitive against the EVENTUAL NBA Champions with no real help. He was also never the second best Player on his team at any time either. Only a few Legends can say that.

Not even Kobe can say that. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[bizil]

Now some people consider a Batman or true number one scoring option as a guy who's merely a great player. That's not the case at all! EVERY TEAM has a number one scoring option per say they look to. But a TRUE number one scoring option is feared throughout the league as a guy who can carry a team. Ideally, u want a well balanced team when it comes to scoring. But shit aint perfect. And teams are trying to win. That's why it's important to have those great scorers who command double teams. It frees up the other players. When a team is down, u need a guy that can will your team back and go head to head with another superstar. Some teams had the luxury to have more than one scorer of that magnitude. Other guys didn't, so they had to shoulder more of the scoring load.

That Bulls team without MJ NEEDED more scoring for that team to go further. That's the bottom line point blank. They played great as a team and Pip had his best season in terms of solo accolades. But the standard in Chicago was titles. And Pip was very upset when Kukoc got that last shot. So mad he refused to go back in the game. What kind of leadership is that? U don't refuse to go back in a playoff game. Pip was mad because he was the best player on the team. Which was true. But Phil didn't trust Scottie in that moment so He went with Toni!

U Pip dick riders NEVER bring this up. If that was MJ, he's taking the last shot. If it's Kobe, Wade, TMac, etc. they are taking the last shot point blank. That Bulls team wasn't deep at all. They didn't need a three, they only needed a two. They could have designed a baseline or wing play for Scottie to get a good shot. 1.8 seconds is longer than some think. The pink elephant in the room was that Pip wasn't clutch and differed to a rookie. And to top it off, that rookie made the shot! LOL

[bizil]

Hung up the phone right there (but still read some of your post). You, of all people should be the last person to talk about appreciating a certain player without bringing down another one.:oldlol:

Bottom line is, Scottie Pippen was a Great Player, who was never given the chance to prove his worth as a Franchise Player over a long stretch, nor did he command the fear and respect of a Franchise Player when he was given a chance to be a team leader. Scottie= GOAT Sidekick. It is what it is.

Well said sir! That's all I'm trying to say as well. We can only go on what we know. Pip didn't get the chance over the long haul. When he had the chance, he didn't step up the scoring like a TRUE close or Batman scoring option should have. On that Bulls team, it was essential bump it up the scoring to at least 27-28 points on that team. They still had a great year, but replace guys like MJ, Kobe, or Wade on that team. They put that team on a completely different level, not even close. They would have been averaging over 30 points, dropping just as many dimes or damn close, still play all league D, and will a team. It's the total truth.

Some of yall on here are delusional! U can be a team's best player without being a top notch closer. But how far will that team go? The 2004 Pistons were a team full of very good players. Four of them were All Stars and Prince was a very versatile SF. None of them were true blue number one options that the L feared. But Billups was known to hit the big shot and come up big in the clutch. Sheed had all the talent in the world, but he wasn't a Batman. Rip was a very good scorer, but not a true Batman either. So in this case, u didn't need a Batman to win a ring. That Bulls cast without MJ didn't have anywhere close to the talent that Pistons team had. Therefore Scottie HAD TO STEP UP THE SCORING MORE THAN HE DID!

[Smoke117]

Well said sir! That's all I'm trying to say as well. We can only go on what we know. Pip didn't get the chance over the long haul. When he had the chance, he didn't step up the scoring like a TRUE close or Batman scoring option should have. On that Bulls team, it was essential bump it up the scoring to at least 27-28 points on that team. They still had a great year, but replace guys like MJ, Kobe, or Wade on that team. They put that team on a completely different level, not even close. They would have been averaging over 30 points, dropping just as many dimes or damn close, still play all league D, and will a team. It's the total truth.

Some of yall on here are delusional! U can be a team's best player without being a top notch closer. But how far will that team go? The 2004 Pistons were a team full of very good players. Four of them were All Stars and Prince was a very versatile SF. None of them were true blue number one options that the L feared. But Billups was known to hit the big shot and come up big in the clutch. Sheed had all the talent in the world, but he wasn't a Batman. Rip was a very good scorer, but not a true Batman either. So in this case, u didn't need a Batman to win a ring. That Bulls cast without MJ didn't have anywhere close to the talent that Pistons team had. Therefore Scottie HAD TO STEP UP THE SCORING MORE THAN HE DID!

Jordan and especially Kobe and Wade never once came close to the defensive player Pippen was in 94 and especially 95 so that is just a joke. Another thing: You have no ****ing idea what you are talking about. I've tried to stay out of this as my thread basically ended up becoming what EVERY thread that has Scottie's name in it becomes, but frankly you've run your mouth enough. Scottie didn't shoot or score more in 94 because that isn't what Phil wanted. That team was not going to succeed with Pippen taking 20+ shots and averaging 25+ points. That team succeeded because they played some of the best damn team ball any team has EVER PLAYED and that started with their super star Scottie Pippen. If he wasn't on board with that then that was not going to catch on

All this batman ****ing shit I could care less about, who takes the last second shot, scores the clutch baskets. There is more to basketball then all that. Scottie Pippen was an all universe defensive player, A GAME CHANGER, he ran your offense, he rebounded, he dropped 20+ a game, he is a franchise player, period. He is a guy you could build your team around. You even brought Reggie Miller into this a couple pages ago (you or somebody, you're not worth me backtracking) and that was just ridiculous. Who cares what Reggie did at the end of games...I tell you this, you are going to be put in that position to make clutch shots a lot less if you have Pippen instead of Miller. Why? Because he's a vastly superior player and your team is just going to be better with him. I hate this crap when all this crunch time and clutch shooting nonsense comes up and people basically try and say the rest of the game doesn't matter. Why even play three quarters if it doesn't matter? The Bulls didn't win 72 games because Michael Jordan was so clutch in crunch time...they beat the shit out of everyone by an average of a dozen or so points because they had great players that dominated you THROUGHOUT THE GAME. Stop overrating the last 5 mins of a game and discarding the rest.

[bizil]

Jordan and especially Kobe and Wade never once came close to the defensive player Pippen was in 94 and especially 95 so that is just a joke. Another thing: You have no ****ing idea what you are talking about. I've tried to stay out of this as my thread basically ended up becoming what EVERY thread that has Scottie's name in it becomes, but frankly you've run your mouth enough. Scottie didn't shoot or score more in 94 because that isn't what Phil wanted. That team was not going to succeed with Pippen taking 20+ shots and averaging 25+ points. That team succeeded because they played some of the best damn team ball any team has EVER PLAYED and that started with their super star Scottie Pippen. If he wasn't on board with that then that was not going to catch on

All this batman ****ing shit I could care less about, who takes the last second shot, scores the clutch baskets. There is more to basketball then all that. Scottie Pippen was an all universe defensive player, A GAME CHANGER, he ran your offense, he rebounded, he dropped 20+ a game, he is a franchise player, period. He is a guy you could build your team around. You even brought Reggie Miller into this a couple pages ago (you or somebody, you're not worth me backtracking) and that was just ridiculous. Who cares what Reggie did at the end of games...I tell you this, you are going to be put in that position to make clutch shots a lot less if you have Pippen instead of Miller. Why? Because he's a vastly superior player and your team is just going to be better with him. I hate this crap when all this crunch time and clutch shooting nonsense comes up and people basically try and say the rest of the game doesn't matter. Why even play three quarters if it doesn't matter? The Bulls didn't win 72 games because Michael Jordan was so clutch in crunch time...they beat the shit out of everyone by an average of a dozen or so points because they had great players that dominated you THROUGHOUT THE GAME. Stop overrating the last 5 mins of a game and discarding the rest.

Your problem is Smoke that u suck Pip's dick so much that u are delusional. All I said about Pip was he's not a scoring closer. I never said he wasn't a great player.

U bring up Phil didn't want Scottie taking 20 + shots to get 25 + points. How do u know Phil Jackson said that? U can get shoot 10-15 from the field and get 20 points u idiot. And if a couple of those are threes then that's even more points. U get to the line 10 times and hit 7 of them that's 27 points right there. U don't have to take 20 shots to get 25 points. And if u do take 20 shots at times to get those 25 points then there is nothing wrong with that. The bottom line is that Bulls team needed more points from Pip or more closeout ability to take the team farther.

U are also so busy licking Pip's nuts that u never watch TNT or ESPN. They always say their is a premium for great closers. Just because I think Pip lacks in that ability doesn't mean he's not a great player. He just lacks in that ability. Nique is a great player, but he's not a great all around player. Dennis Rodman is a great player with non-existent scoring. Wow Pip must be ****ing yo ass real good for u to get so emotional. Never said he wasn't a great player. I just said he's not a closer or a Batman type scorer. Never said Batman scoring was the be all end all. But if u look at the top 15 players of all time, the only guy that wasn't a Batman is Bill Russell. Batman scoring is more than numbers. It's about clutch and closing out. It's about guys who can be unguardable. It's about attracting double teams that create opportunities for guys to be heroes. Look at the attention MJ got. He passed to Paxson or Kerr so they could hit clutch shit. That's what it's about. I would take Pip over several guys that scored more points. But no way in hell am I puttin Pip over Durant, Gervin Melo, King, Nique, or Dr. J. Let alone guys with great all around ability AND true blue number 1 options like MJ, Kobe, Bird, Wade, etc.

GOAT wise, Pip will rank high due to rings and other accolades though. And Pip was great. I'm just telling the truth about Pip.

[bizil]

You really need to get away from the batman 1st option stuff. It a lot more involved to leading a team than just being a first option. Bill russell, kevin garnett, ben wallace, dwight howard aren't first option type players, but they were the most important players on their teams.

And why couldn't pippen be a first option? He was on a 55 win team. And they probably would've had the best record had pippen not missed 10 games.

I'm not getting away from something that's such a premium asset. There are tandems that had more than one great closer or Batman. West-Baylor, Magic-Kareem, Doc-Moses, Wade-Bron, Drexler-Dream, Shaq-Kobe, Wade-Shaq for example. I never said it's the be all end all. But it's damn important and ALWAYS to be respected. Just like I respect what a guy like Pip brought to the table. Ya Pip was on a 55 win team and the team's best player. A hell of a feat. But the fact remains that for that team to get TRULY the most of its ability, it needed Pip to be more of a great closer and true blue number one option. Put MJ in his place and that team has a shot to win it all. It wouldn't come down to the Hue Hollins BS call. Reason being is because MJ would take one look at his supporting cast and KNOW he had to dominate scoring like he always has anyway. The surrounding pieces just weren't there for anything less. Every team has a number one option or a best scorer. Hell Andre Iggy was the top scorer for Philly for some years. But is Iggy a true blue closer? Is Iggy a Batman? Does Iggy command a double team? The answer to all questions is no. But he's still an All Star caliber player who is like a poor man's Pippen. These are the facts.

[97 bulls]

Your problem is Smoke that u suck Pip's dick so much that u are delusional. All I said about Pip was he's not a scoring closer. I never said he wasn't a great player.

U bring up Phil didn't want Scottie taking 20 + shots to get 25 + points. How do u know Phil Jackson said that? U can get shoot 10-15 from the field and get 20 points u idiot. And if a couple of those are threes then that's even more points. U get to the line 10 times and hit 7 of them that's 27 points right there. U don't have to take 20 shots to get 25 points. And if u do take 20 shots at times to get those 25 points then there is nothing wrong with that. The bottom line is that Bulls team needed more points from Pip or more closeout ability to take the team farther.

U are also so busy licking Pip's nuts that u never watch TNT or ESPN. They always say their is a premium for great closers. Just because I think Pip lacks in that ability doesn't mean he's not a great player. He just lacks in that ability. Nique is a great player, but he's not a great all around player. Dennis Rodman is a great player with non-existent scoring. Wow Pip must be ****ing yo ass real good for u to get so emotional. Never said he wasn't a great player. I just said he's not a closer or a Batman type scorer. Never said Batman scoring was the be all end all. But if u look at the top 15 players of all time, the only guy that wasn't a Batman is Bill Russell. Batman scoring is more than numbers. It's about clutch and closing out. It's about guys who can be unguardable. It's about attracting double teams that create opportunities for guys to be heroes. Look at the attention MJ got. He passed to Paxson or Kerr so they could hit clutch shit. That's what it's about. I would take Pip over several guys that scored more points. But no way in hell am I puttin Pip over Durant, Gervin Melo, King, Nique, or Dr. J. Let alone guys with great all around ability AND true blue number 1 options like MJ, Kobe, Bird, Wade, etc.

GOAT wise, Pip will rank high due to rings and other accolades though. And Pip was great. I'm just telling the truth about Pip.
He wasn't a closer? What about game 5 of the 91 finals? What about game 6 of the 92 nba finals? What about game 6 of the 98 finals when pippen scored 2 baskets in the final moments of the game while playing with a bad back?

[bizil]

He wasn't a closer? What about game 5 of the 91 finals? What about game 6 of the 92 nba finals? What about game 6 of the 98 finals when pippen scored 2 baskets in the final moments of the game while playing with a bad back?

I rest my case. I'm done with this thread. I'm talking about another level of closer greatness. I NEVER said Pip didn't have his moments.

[bond10]

Pippen is third greatest sidekick ever. Top 30-40 player. He was a great versatile player. That's all there is, period. (Shaq-Kobe, Magic-Kareem, for the top two sidekicks in case you're wondering).

And LOL at the idiot who says Jordan was nowhere close to the defender Pippen was.



Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he’s ever seen. (I was pretty shocked by that, but man what does that tell you about MJ, unbelievable.) Jordan was the most ferocious competitor Bach has seen in all his years of basketball. Johnny said physically Jordan and Pippen were about the same as defenders. But when you add in MJ’s ruthlessness and trash talk, that put him ahead of Scottie. When Johnny was coaching with the Hornets in 1995 they had a good team. Glen Rice, Mourning, Johnson. Series was tied at 2 and Hornets had a chance to win game 5 in Chicago. On the biggest possession of the game, Mugsy had the ball with the Hornets down 1. Jordan backed off of him and told him: “shoot it you ****ing midget.” Mugsy shot it, didn’t come close. A year later Mugsy actually told Johnny Bach that he believes that single play ruined his career. His shot never recovered.

http://dsy.posterous.com/50904227

[97 bulls]

I rest my case. I'm done with this thread. I'm talking about another level of closer greatness. I NEVER said Pip didn't have his moments.
It sounds to me like you expect pippen to be jordan. Nobody took over games like jordan did. Nobody.

And to be honest, how many times do players have career defining moments? How many games did magic take over? And the games I listed were just offensively, I didn't mention the games pippen took over on defense.

But again, just for the sake of thiss argument,

how many games did magic johnson take over?

How many gamessis clyde drexler taake over?


And I'm talkin career defining games not great statistiical games. Games where the team was in a back to the wall situation an they pulled them out of it.

I'm sure I won't get a response.

[tontoz]

Pippen was a great player but his weak shot definitely hurt his game. He was only a career 32.6% shooter from 3 and only 70% career from the line.

He didn't exactly dominate in the years without Jordan. He was effective in the point forward role and very strong defensively but not really a go to player offensively. he was a good scorer but definitely much better suited to being a 2nd option offensively.

[97 bulls]

Pippen is third greatest sidekick ever. Top 30-40 player. He was a great versatile player. That's all there is, period. (Shaq-Kobe, Magic-Kareem, for the top two sidekicks in case you're wondering).

And LOL at the idiot who says Jordan was nowhere close to the defender Pippen was.




http://dsy.posterous.com/50904227
Pippen was better than jabaar at that stage of his career. Come on.

Id say he was on par with kobe when things like IQ and versitility and defense as well as being a team player, are factored in. Now if you value scoring only, then bryant is better.

[bond10]

Pippen was better than jabaar at that stage of his career. Come on.

Id say he was on par with kobe when things like IQ and versitility and defense as well as being a team player, are factored in. Now if you value scoring only, then bryant is better.

The gap between Jordan and Pippen is bigger than Shaq/Kobe.

You're right, better than Magic/Kareem, however Kareem has proven that's he can be a leader and win a ring.

Kobe and Kareem won rings as leaders as well (super important). You can think in terms of versatility/offense/defense all you want. Kobe and Kareem lead their teams offensively to rings. Pippen lead his team to 50+ wins in regular season with his "versatility." Doesn't matter how you lead, the end result matters.

[EricForman]

Smoke117,

Pip is, overall, and consistently throughout their careers, the better defensive player over Jordan. But for you to say "Jordan never once came close to the defensive player Pip was in 94", well... go home with your biased nonsense. 80s Jordan was an athletic freak who got 3 steals and 1.5 blocks a game and was all over the floor defensively.

There isn't a single thing Pippen blows Jordan away in. Pippen is great but Jordan is the greatest of all time.

The Jordan hate on this board is hilarious, Pippen was routinely punked by the Pistons and Knicks and kiddies are trying to prop him up to near Jordan level. Please.

[bond10]

Smoke117,

Pip is, overall, and consistently throughout their careers, the better defensive player over Jordan. But for you to say "Jordan never once came close to the defensive player Pip was in 94", well... go home with your biased nonsense. 80s Jordan was an athletic freak who got 3 steals and 1.5 blocks a game and was all over the floor defensively.

There isn't a single thing Pippen blows Jordan away in. Pippen is great but Jordan is the greatest of all time.

The Jordan hate on this board is hilarious, Pippen was routinely punked by the Pistons and Knicks and kiddies are trying to prop him up to near Jordan level. Please.



Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he’s ever seen. (I was pretty shocked by that, but man what does that tell you about MJ, unbelievable.) Jordan was the most ferocious competitor Bach has seen in all his years of basketball. Johnny said physically Jordan and Pippen were about the same as defenders. But when you add in MJ’s ruthlessness and trash talk, that put him ahead of Scottie. When Johnny was coaching with the Hornets in 1995 they had a good team. Glen Rice, Mourning, Johnson. Series was tied at 2 and Hornets had a chance to win game 5 in Chicago. On the biggest possession of the game, Mugsy had the ball with the Hornets down 1. Jordan backed off of him and told him: “shoot it you ****ing midget.” Mugsy shot it, didn’t come close. A year later Mugsy actually told Johnny Bach that he believes that single play ruined his career. His shot never recovered.

http://dsy.posterous.com/50904227

[iamgine]

Kobe having Gasol in 08 is about the equivalent of Pippen having Kevin Johnson in 94. Instead, he had Pete Myers.

[AlphaWolf24]

Well said sir! That's all I'm trying to say as well. We can only go on what we know. Pip didn't get the chance over the long haul. When he had the chance, he didn't step up the scoring like a TRUE close or Batman scoring option should have. On that Bulls team, it was essential bump it up the scoring to at least 27-28 points on that team. They still had a great year, but replace guys like MJ, Kobe, or Wade on that team. They put that team on a completely different level, not even close. They would have been averaging over 30 points, dropping just as many dimes or damn close, still play all league D, and will a team. It's the total truth.

Some of yall on here are delusional! U can be a team's best player without being a top notch closer. But how far will that team go? The 2004 Pistons were a team full of very good players. Four of them were All Stars and Prince was a very versatile SF. None of them were true blue number one options that the L feared. But Billups was known to hit the big shot and come up big in the clutch. Sheed had all the talent in the world, but he wasn't a Batman. Rip was a very good scorer, but not a true Batman either. So in this case, u didn't need a Batman to win a ring. That Bulls cast without MJ didn't have anywhere close to the talent that Pistons team had. Therefore Scottie HAD TO STEP UP THE SCORING MORE THAN HE DID!


Quoted for my arguement that Kobe was the lakers best player and most Valuable.....Kobe = the first option in Crunchtime since 2001 and L.A.'s best allaround player

[97 bulls]

Pippen was a great player but his weak shot definitely hurt his game. He was only a career 32.6% shooter from 3 and only 70% career from the line.

He didn't exactly dominate in the years without Jordan. He was effective in the point forward role and very strong defensively but not really a go to player offensively. he was a good scorer but definitely much better suited to being a 2nd option offensively.
33% was pretty good for that time. And then again your factoring his career. The three point shot wasn't as used much as now. And if you only take out the 4 years he barely played, then hiss percentage is more like 36% which is damn good for the time

And what do you mean he didn't dominate? In 94 he waas third in mvp voting and in 95 he was second in the dpoy voting.

[jlip]

http://dsy.posterous.com/50904227

Just quoting someone's opinion (even if it is a coach's) becomes problematic when we can find quotes from others saying differently. For instance:

"No one is more versatile than Pippen. 'He's the best defender I've seen,' Dunleavy says. 'I put him in a class with Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief and certainly Jordan. But they're different. Jordan, at his position, may have been as good as there was. But Scottie could guard more positions than Michael. Scottie can handle more sizes.'

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm

'Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best individual defenders in the game, Pippen, in particular, may have no peer. Says Orlando Magic assistant coach Richie Adubato, "Wherever you run a pick-and-roll, he's in the area. He double-teams the ball. He blocks shots, makes steals.'

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm

Which person's comments are you supposed to believe?

[bond10]

Just quoting someone's opinion (even if it is a coach's) becomes problematic when we can find quotes from others saying differently. For instance:

"No one is more versatile than Pippen. 'He's the best defender I've seen,' Dunleavy says. 'I put him in a class with Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief and certainly Jordan. But they're different. Jordan, at his position, may have been as good as there was. But Scottie could guard more positions than Michael. Scottie can handle more sizes.'

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm

'Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best individual defenders in the game, Pippen, in particular, may have no peer. Says Orlando Magic assistant coach Richie Adubato, "Wherever you run a pick-and-roll, he's in the area. He double-teams the ball. He blocks shots, makes steals.'

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm

Which person's comments are you supposed to believe?

The one who was actually there during practices between Jordan and Pippen...Johnny Bach

[Da_Realist]

Just quoting someone's opinion (even if it is a coach's) becomes problematic when we can find quotes from others saying differently. For instance:

"No one is more versatile than Pippen. 'He's the best defender I've seen,' Dunleavy says. 'I put him in a class with Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief and certainly Jordan. But they're different. Jordan, at his position, may have been as good as there was. But Scottie could guard more positions than Michael. Scottie can handle more sizes.'

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm

'Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best individual defenders in the game, Pippen, in particular, may have no peer. Says Orlando Magic assistant coach Richie Adubato, "Wherever you run a pick-and-roll, he's in the area. He double-teams the ball. He blocks shots, makes steals.'

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007695/index.htm

Which person's comments are you supposed to believe?

I think his only issue is saying that Jordan was nowhere near a defender as Pippen was, not who was considered better. Both sets of quotes attest to the fact that Jordan is at worst in the conversation and at best a better defender.

[jlip]

The one who was actually there during practices between Jordan and Pippen...Johnny Bach

In practice who was the best scorer MJ ever guarded? Pippen.
In practice who was the best scorer Pippen ever guarded? MJ.

I fail to see how you can deduce who's the better in game defender from that. Opposing coaches who routinely saw their players being guarded in game or saw their offensive schemes disrupted by either Jordan or Pippen could probably be a better judge of this. Frankly at this point I basically could care less who was the better defender, but it's the argument or case that that's provided that concerns me. Bach used the intangible of "trash talking" and guarding "Spud Webb" as his evidence. Seriously? If a better case were provided especially in light of the fact that other coaches who had to face the defense of both MJ and Pippen saying the opposite then maybe Bach's words would be more compelling.

[jlip]

I think his only issue is saying that Jordan was nowhere near a defender as Pippen was, not who was considered better. Both sets of quotes attest to the fact that Jordan is at worst in the conversation and at best a better defender.

That's understandable there.

[Da_Realist]

Cliff Levingston also said MJ was the better defender.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213322

I think the people that saw MJ during the earlier years still remember that and rank MJ higher. The people that grew up watching the Bulls during the second three peat can't imagine anyone being a better defender than Pippen. I think that's the line in the sand with ISH.

Johnny Back and Cliff Levingston both were there during MJ's best defensive years. I'm sure some Bulls that played from 95-98 would say Pippen's greater.

[tontoz]

33% was pretty good for that time. And then again your factoring his career. The three point shot wasn't as used much as now. And if you only take out the 4 years he barely played, then hiss percentage is more like 36% which is damn good for the time

And what do you mean he didn't dominate? In 94 he waas third in mvp voting and in 95 he was second in the dpoy voting.


And what was his ppg when Jordan was out? Nothing special.

It wasn't just a question of 3 pointers. He just wasn't a good shooter in general. His midrange shot was flat and mediocre. He only shot 70% from the foul line for his career. That is just lame for a 3.

[tontoz]

Cliff Levingston also said MJ was the better defender.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213322

I think the people that saw MJ during the earlier years still remember that and rank MJ higher. The people that grew up watching the Bulls during the second three peat can't imagine anyone being a better defender than Pippen. I think that's the line in the sand with ISH.

Johnny Back and Cliff Levingston both were there during MJ's best defensive years. I'm sure some Bulls that played from 95-98 would say Pippen's greater.


To be fair Cliff had his nose pretty far up MJ's rectum.

[bond10]

In practice who was the best scorer MJ ever guarded? Pippen.
In practice who was the best scorer Pippen ever guarded? MJ.

I fail to see how you can deduce who's the better in game defender from that. Opposing coaches who routinely saw their players being guarded in game or saw their offensive schemes disrupted by either Jordan or Pippen could probably be a better judge of this. Frankly at this point I basically could care less who was the better defender, but it's the argument or case that that's provided that concerns me. Bach used the intangible of "trash talking" and guarding "Spud Webb" as his evidence. Seriously? If a better case were provided especially in light of the fact that other coaches who had to face the defense of both MJ and Pippen saying the opposite then maybe Bach's words would be more compelling.

How do you know this? Were you there?

[jlip]

How do you know this? Were you there?

OK. I'm done with this particular matter after this, because I personally don't care about long, drawn out back and forths, but... are you kidding me? MJ made it abundantly clear in a quote that I'm too lazy to find at the moment that he and Pip challenged each other to get better during practice. Please tell me one Bull's player who MJ could have guarded in practice that was a better scorer than Pip. Then tell me what other Bull's player that Pip could have possibly guarded that was a better scorer than MJ? If you actually just know the names on the rosters then you don't have to be present to answer this.

[Mr. Jabbar]

He holds the key to downgrade Jordan a bit. Also, he was one hell of a defender.

[EricForman]

Oh, make no mistake, given the way Pippen used to get punked and pushed around in the 80s (and sometimes in the 90s by Knicks), there is no doubt in my mind Jordan could have a case for being a better defender than Pippen.

BUT, that is something that can never be proved, and frankly, I'm tired of Pippen loyalits--whether they're actual Pippen fans or Kobe trolls--bitch and complain about how all Jordan fans downplay Pip and think Pip was trash or Jordan did it all by himself, so I'm just gonna concede Pip is a better defender (he probably is anyway).

I just won't stand for people saying Jordan wasn't anywhere near the defender Pip was. Or how Pippen was the team's lone defensive anchor and did everything and Jordan was just some bystander.

That's the problem with trolls, you give an inch--half out of respect to the player, half out of respect to the ISH basketball debate--and they wanna go further. Like, I'll say Kobe is top ten all time and could have a case for one day be over Shaq when his career is done. They take that and claim Kobe is already greater than Shaq ever was or how he was Shaq's equal during threepeat. I'll say Kidd and Nash each destroy each other on one end of the game, and the Kidd fans (or actually, more Nash haters) spin some BS formula and tell me Kidd was near Nash's equal as an offensive player.

Like I said, f*cking trolls. :facepalm

[Teanett]

Kobe having Gasol in 08 is about the equivalent of Pippen having Kevin Johnson in 94. Instead, he had Pete Myers.

one of the smartest things i read on ish.
:cheers:

[guy]

Cliff Levingston also said MJ was the better defender.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213322

I think the people that saw MJ during the earlier years still remember that and rank MJ higher. The people that grew up watching the Bulls during the second three peat can't imagine anyone being a better defender than Pippen. I think that's the line in the sand with ISH.

Johnny Back and Cliff Levingston both were there during MJ's best defensive years. I'm sure some Bulls that played from 95-98 would say Pippen's greater.

I bet alot of the younger people that didn't see Jordan pre-first retirement and/or just cause they hate Jordan can't fathom or just won't acknowledge the idea that Jordan could've been the greatest at that many things i.e. scoring, defense, clutch ability, etc. So since there is an argument for someone else on something, they automatically pick that player as better. At least thats what I see when it comes to the Jordan vs. Pippen defense debates. Anyone that says Jordan wasn't at least arguably a better defender then Pippen and at least arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all-time either is very misinformed or has an agenda.

[97 bulls]

I bet alot of the younger people that didn't see Jordan pre-first retirement and/or just cause they hate Jordan can't fathom or just won't acknowledge the idea that Jordan could've been the greatest at that many things i.e. scoring, defense, clutch ability, etc. So since there is an argument for someone else on something, they automatically pick that player as better. At least thats what I see when it comes to the Jordan vs. Pippen defense debates. Anyone that says Jordan wasn't at least arguably a better defender then Pippen and at least arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all-time either is very misinformed or has an agenda.
I agree with this. Jordan is definately on par with pippen defensively. Id even give jordan the slight edge on man defense and pippen a slight edge on help defense. Both dominated like a center defensively

[MaxFly]

33% was pretty good for that time. And then again your factoring his career. The three point shot wasn't as used much as now. And if you only take out the 4 years he barely played, then hiss percentage is more like 36% which is damn good for the time


We have to remember that the three point line was moved closer to the basket from 1994-1997. In those three seasons, Scottie shot 34.5%, 37.4% and 36.8% on more attempts than he had taken in any other season. The season before the three point line was moved closer, Scottie shot 32% and the season when it was moved back, he shot 31.8%. After the line was moved back, he did have seasons where he came close to that 34.5% efficiency, but he never quite reached it, and it's important to note that he didn't take as many threes those seasons as he did in any of those 94-97 seasons.

[97 bulls]

We have to remember that the three point line was moved closer to the basket from 1994-1997. In those three seasons, Scottie shot 34.5%, 37.4% and 36.8% on more attempts than he had taken in any other season. The season before the three point line was moved closer, Scottie shot 32% and the season when it was moved back, he shot 31.8%. After the line was moved back, he did have seasons where he came close to that 34.5% efficiency, but he never quite reached it, and it's important to note that he didn't take as many threes those seasons as he did in any of those 94-97 seasons.
Either way, pippen was right around the league avg for 3 pt shooting.

[NugzHeat3]

Cliff Levingston also said MJ was the better defender.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213322

I think the people that saw MJ during the earlier years still remember that and rank MJ higher. The people that grew up watching the Bulls during the second three peat can't imagine anyone being a better defender than Pippen. I think that's the line in the sand with ISH.

Johnny Back and Cliff Levingston both were there during MJ's best defensive years. I'm sure some Bulls that played from 95-98 would say Pippen's greater.
Great point. I never thought of it that way and its true because MJ's and Pippen's defensive primes certainly didn't overlap.

[MaxFly]

Either way, pippen was right around the league avg for 3 pt shooting.

In 91-92, the league average was 33.1%. Scottie was at 20.0%
In 92-93, the league average was 33.6%. Scottie was at 23.7%
In 93-94, the league average was 33%. Scottie was at 32%
In 97-98, the league average was 34.6%. Scottie was at 31.8%
In 98-99, the league average was 33.9%. Scottie was at 34.0%
In 99-00, the league average was 35.3%. Scottie was at 32.7%
In 00-01, the league average was 35.4%. Scottie was at 34.4%
In 01-02, the league average was 35.4%. Scottie was at 30.5%
In 02-03, the league average was 34.9%. Scottie was at 28.6%

Rather than "right around," I think it would be more accurate to say that Scottie was consistently below the league average.

[Legends66NBA7]

Hard player to not be obsessed to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObgS6uUVjQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1YchiFv-5M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3X8uiaUV5M&feature=related

[97 bulls]

In 91-92, the league average was 33.1%. Scottie was at 20.0%
In 92-93, the league average was 33.6%. Scottie was at 23.7%
In 93-94, the league average was 33%. Scottie was at 32%
In 97-98, the league average was 34.6%. Scottie was at 31.8%
In 98-99, the league average was 33.9%. Scottie was at 34.0%
In 99-00, the league average was 35.3%. Scottie was at 32.7%
In 00-01, the league average was 35.4%. Scottie was at 34.4%
In 01-02, the league average was 35.4%. Scottie was at 30.5%
In 02-03, the league average was 34.9%. Scottie was at 28.6%

Rather than "right around," I think it would be more accurate to say that Scottie was consistently below the league average.
Don't leave out 95, 96, 97. Regardless the threes he took in those years were behind the nba designated 3pt line.

Should we leave out the ppg avgs of all the wing players after 04? Since they changed the rules and made it easier to score from the perimeter?

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Yeah, it's like calling someone the next Scottie Pippen is like an insult.