Jordan's return in the 94-95 season

[SpecialQue]

I need a Bulls or Jordan fan to clear this up for me, because my memory's hazy from when all this was going on. During the 93-94 season, the Pippen-led Bulls were doing a fantastic job and had a 55-win season. The next season I keep reading that they were actually struggling for a playoff spot until Jordan returned in March. What happened to the team between those two seasons that caused such a drop in wins?

Also, whenever the Rocket's back-to-back championships get mentioned, it's like there's an asterix next to it because of Jordan's retirement. Why do people disregard Jordan's return?

[OldSchoolBBall]

What happened to the team between those two seasons that caused such a drop in wins?

A combination of Grant leaving and the team coming back down to their actual level (their SRS in '94 would put them at around 48-50 wins; essentially, they overachieved in '94).


Why do people disregard Jordan's return?

Because 20 games if not enough to get back in basketball shape (much less back to being on top of your game) after a 21 month layoff.

[D.J.]

Horace Grant leaving really hurt Chicago. He was a 15/11 player that played solid post defense and his jumpshot was underrated. Had Horace stayed in Chicago, they probably would have beaten Orlando.

[Kblaze8855]

I never understood why its disredarded either. Players come back shaky from being injured....being out beyond their control....nobody acts like their failures didnt happen. Wilt returned from a knee injury that ended careers back then. Came back early and lost in the finals and people mention his performance and hate on him. MJ just walked away and came back perfectly healthy and in good shape and people act like it never happened. Not like he came back 260 pounds having eaten ice cream for a year and change. He was still an athlete. Was playing sports. Just quit basketball on the pro level for a while. But he always played. By the 95 playoffs he was better than most HOF guards were at their peaks.

[SpecialQue]

By the way, because I've seen so many threads go in this direction, this is NOT a thread to bash Jordan or Pippen or any other crap like that. I can't believe I'd even have to add this, but there you go.

[SpecialQue]

I never understood why its disredarded either. Players come back shaky from being injured....being out beyond their control....nobody acts like their failures didnt happen. Wilt returned from a knee injury that ended careers back then. Came back early and lost in the finals and people mention his performance and hate on him. MJ just walked away and came back perfectly healthy and in good shape and people act like it never happened. Not like he came back 260 pounds having eaten ice cream for a year and change. He was still an athlete. Was playing sports. Just quit basketball on the pro level for a while. But he always played. By the 95 playoffs he was better than most HOF guards were at their peaks.

I might have misread this somewhere, but didn't he have a 55 point game during his return year?

[Smoke117]

They lost their 2nd best defender, 2nd leading scorer, and leading rebounder. The 95 Bulls were only even above .500 because of the job Scottie managed to do defensively. A common theme that season was for them to lose leads in the 4th and lose a lot of close games. A common commentary was that Scottie was too exhausted to finish teams off offensively because of how much effort he had to put forth on the defensive end. The 94 bulls were not a great offensive team in the first place so they could ill afford to lose anyone who was a main contributor in that aspect. When you replace Jordan (a super star) and Grant (a fantastic role player) with Toni Kukoc and Pete Myers what do you expect is going to happen?

[puppychili]

That Bulls team was at the end of their rope too before Jordan came back. Pippen and Phil had one foot out the door and were just waiting for the season to end. Jordan coming back gave them a reason to stick around.

And I think the reason why most people disregard Jordans play in the 95 season is because of the 96 season. Jordan certainly had highlights during the 95 season and playoffs but didn't play up to his standards. Once he got a full off-season in and got into basketball shape he dominated the league in 96.

[Da_Realist]

That Bulls team was at the end of their rope too before Jordan came back. Pippen and Phil had one foot out the door and were just waiting for the season to end. Jordan coming back gave them a reason to stick around.

And I think the reason why most people disregard Jordans play in the 95 season is because of the 96 season. Jordan certainly had highlights during the 95 season and playoffs but didn't play up to his standards. Once he got a full off-season in and got into basketball shape he dominated the league in 96.

In other words, he was great but he wasn't Jordan. That's why people place an asterisk there.

By the way, count me in the camp that doesn't think anything should be taken away from what the Rockets accomplished those 2 years. You can always find a way to discredit someone's accomplishments if you look hard enough.

[guy]

In other words, he was great but he wasn't Jordan. That's why people place an asterisk there.

By the way, count me in the camp that doesn't think anything should be taken away from what the Rockets accomplished those 2 years. You can always find a way to discredit someone's accomplishments if you look hard enough.

Agree with this. If Jordan never came back, does that somehow make the Rockets accomplishments worth more, so now they don't deserve the asterisk? Even though nothing really changes at all on their road to the championship? The league was what it was at the time so they don't deserve any discredit.

[AlphaWolf24]

That Bulls team was at the end of their rope too before Jordan came back. Pippen and Phil had one foot out the door and were just waiting for the season to end. Jordan coming back gave them a reason to stick around.

And I think the reason why most people disregard Jordans play in the 95 season is because of the 96 season. Jordan certainly had highlights during the 95 season and playoffs but didn't play up to his standards. Once he got a full off-season in and got into basketball shape he dominated the league in 96.


huh??....they won 11 outta 13 games right before MJ came back....in other words they were getting hot right before the playoff's.


the whole once he got a full season he dominated is bogus also....

He dominated in 95' also..he dropped 55 in the Garden, He dominated in 86' after missing nearly the same amount of games , he dropped 63 in the Garden ...remember?......why wasn't he Rusty in 86'?....in fact in 1995 he wasn't even coming off an injury and he was still keeping in shape with his trainer, Grover , in fact the rest and time off most likely helped his basketball legs...

and why do Jordan stans need to always give him an excuse for Losing???...the Bull's had "0" interior defense and rebounding (Grant was gone to Orlando) and in 1996 they replaced Grant's void with Rodman (the greatest defensive player/rebounder of his generation)..that's why the Bull's improved so much....not because MJ was Rusty then all of a sudden over a couple months wasn't rusty...:lol


jeez.....Rodman>Grant that's why 70 wins......if it wasn'tthe case then why weren't the Bull's winning 70 games before?? with better teams..

[StarJordan]

^nope jordan shot 50% in 96 and averaged 30+, in 1995 he was well below 50% and 26-27ppg...he was down to kobe levels in 1995....but in 1996 he was back to the jordan level..30ppg on 50%, result championship, they could have won championship without rodman too...just needed a solid power forward to go up in the post against shaq as kukoc was more of an offensive threat

[puppychili]

I agree. The Rockets should get 100% credit for their two titles. Would Jordan and the Bulls have won 1 or 2 of those titles if he never quit? Maybe. But he did quit for 1 3/4 years so who cares about shoulda coulda woulda.

[Kblaze8855]

Jrodan played bettwe in the 95 playoffs than he did in several series in 96, 97, and 98. If you watched those playoffs you know he whored everyone put in front of him. He came out and first game of the playoffs dropped like 50. He was working Penny in the post. Blowing by Anderson. finishing at the rim. Locking guys up...blocking shots. Ripping people straight up.

nobody can say they lost because he wasnt good enough. He was better than he was in several victories.

[nnn123]

Jrodan played bettwe in the 95 playoffs than he did in several series in 96, 97, and 98. If you watched those playoffs you know he whored everyone put in front of him. He came out and first game of the playoffs dropped like 50. He was working Penny in the post. Blowing by Anderson. finishing at the rim. Locking guys up...blocking shots. Ripping people straight up.

nobody can say they lost because he wasnt good enough. He was better than he was in several victories.


Big difference between Jordan in 95 and 96-98...he CHOKED like a Biznatch during that Orlando series. Bulls shoulda won two of those games if Jordan didn't blow it at the end. And I'm not talking about "blowing it" as in missing a shot or something, I'm talking about straight up giving up the lead due to boneheaded plays.

There's no way 95 Jordan wins any titles, he had no endurance

[one2]

No one mentioned it on this thread and it's probably not as relevant or contributing to the Bulls dramatic loss from 94 to 95 but they moved to the United Center and supposedly players weren't comfortable with the new lights (which supposedly got into some of the players' eye level. This made shooting much more difficult).

Home players also sat on a different side of the court from the Old Chicago stadium and I think MJ had something to do with some changes. Players got to sit back to the same side as before and the lighting scheme was changed to take away the light from players' eyes.

[guy]

Jrodan played bettwe in the 95 playoffs than he did in several series in 96, 97, and 98. If you watched those playoffs you know he whored everyone put in front of him. He came out and first game of the playoffs dropped like 50. He was working Penny in the post. Blowing by Anderson. finishing at the rim. Locking guys up...blocking shots. Ripping people straight up.

nobody can say they lost because he wasnt good enough. He was better than he was in several victories.

I don't think stats really tell the story, especially since they only played 10 games in those playoffs. I remember the end of game 6 against the Magic, and he was totally gassed out, moreso then he ever was during his career as a Bull. He just wasn't in the same shape. He also made alot of mistakes that he usually wouldn't make. He obviously had some great games, but he wasn't the same IMO. He doesn't get excused for it, but I do think it would've been different if the situation was different.

[millwad]

I don't think stats really tell the story, especially since they only played 10 games in those playoffs. I remember the end of game 6 against the Magic, and he was totally gassed out, moreso then he ever was during his career as a Bull. He just wasn't in the same shape. He also made alot of mistakes that he usually wouldn't make. He obviously had some great games, but he wasn't the same IMO. He doesn't get excused for it, but I do think it would've been different if the situation was different.

Excuses, if you've seen the series you wouldn't have wrote what you just did. Michael in the last game almost put up a triple double and he had 3 games in that series where he almost put up 40 points.

In game 2 he had 38 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals and 4 blocks.

In game 3 he had 40 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block.

In game 4 he had 39 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks.

And it shouldn't be forgotten that he faced great competition, Orlando Magic had a team with Shaq, Penny, Scott, Grant and Anderson.

The problem wasn't Mike, he was great as always and if he wouldn't have retired no one would have said "Michael wasn't as good this year".. The problem was that their big guys sucked.. Mike even had series worse than this one during the years the Bulls won..

[Da_Realist]

There's a difference between the MJ that retired in 93 and the one that came back in 95. He couldn't finish games. That's why you saw mental errors near the end of games. He only had like 20 games in the regular season to acclimate himself into the team with new teammates and even his old teammates had different roles than before he left. It wasn't the same guy even though he was playing on a high level.

With that said, Houston probably would have beaten the Bulls even if MJ played the whole year for other reasons (matchup problems, no real power forward, etc) so Houston still deserves that title.

[guy]

Excuses, if you've seen the series you wouldn't have wrote what you just did. Michael in the last game almost put up a triple double and he had 3 games in that series where he almost put up 40 points.

In game 2 he had 38 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals and 4 blocks.

In game 3 he had 40 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block.

In game 4 he had 39 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks.

And it shouldn't be forgotten that he faced great competition, Orlando Magic had a team with Shaq, Penny, Scott, Grant and Anderson.

The problem wasn't Mike, he was great as always and if he wouldn't have retired no one would have said "Michael wasn't as good this year".. The problem was that their big guys sucked.. Mike even had series worse than this one during the years the Bulls won..

I'm not making an excuse. He lost plain and simple, and he doesn't get credit for anything. But anyone that thinks he was the same in 96 as he was in 95 is kidding themselves. I never said he wasn't capable of putting up big games or anything, and he was still probably a top 3 player in the game. But that doesn't mean he was the same. I watched the series and the whole season. I question those who actually say he was the same actually did or if they're just hating. I don't care if he almost had a triple double, and 24/9/7 isn't really "almost" anyway (he also had 6 turnovers by the way). Watch the 4th quarter of game 6 and tell me he wasn't visibly tired. He wasn't in the same shape. The Bulls were up by like 10 points with a few minutes and the Magic came back and Jordan didn't do anything even though thats who they were going to. Not cause he didn't have the ability but cause he didn't have the energy.

Shit, he shot 41% from FG that season, by far the worse he's ever shot as a Bull. That shows he wasn't nearly as consistent.

[guy]

There's a difference between the MJ that retired in 93 and the one that came back in 95. He couldn't finish games. That's why you saw mental errors near the end of games. He only had like 20 games in the regular season to acclimate himself into the team with new teammates and even his old teammates had different roles than before he left. It wasn't the same guy even though he was playing on a high level.

With that said, Houston probably would have beaten the Bulls even if MJ played the whole year for other reasons (matchup problems, no real power forward, etc) so Houston still deserves that title.

This. No one is saying he wasn't great. But he wasn't the same. The fact that you could argue that there were still 2 or 3 other players that were better then him goes to show that he wasn't the same.

[AlphaWolf24]

^nope jordan shot 50% in 96 and averaged 30+, in 1995 he was well below 50% and 26-27ppg...he was down to kobe levels in 1995....but in 1996 he was back to the jordan level..30ppg on 50%, result championship, they could have won championship without rodman too...just needed a solid power forward to go up in the post against shaq as kukoc was more of an offensive threat


yup he only shot 50% once his final 8 years....in fact he was up to 42% FG in the Kobe era:lol

MJ choked in 1995 because he didn't have anyone there to rebound his Bricks...






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[SuperPippen]

yup he only shot 50% once his final 8 years....in fact he was up to 42% FG in the Kobe era:lol

MJ choked in 1995 because he didn't have anyone there to rebound his Bricks...






next

More lies.

Jordan shot at or above 50% in 4 of his final 8 seasons. And he shot at 45% in '03 at age 40.


C'mon, Alpha, I know you can do better than that. What else have you got?






subsequent

[AlphaWolf24]

More lies.

Jordan shot at or above 50% in 4 of his final 8 seasons. And he shot at 45% in '03 at age 40.


C'mon, Alpha, I know you can do better than that. What else have you got?






subsequent


No actually he did not..

1991

[Asukal]

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]No actually he did not..

1991

[MrRogers]

No one mentioned it on this thread and it's probably not as relevant or contributing to the Bulls dramatic loss from 94 to 95 but they moved to the United Center and supposedly players weren't comfortable with the new lights (which supposedly got into some of the players' eye level. This made shooting much more difficult).

Home players also sat on a different side of the court from the Old Chicago stadium and I think MJ had something to do with some changes. Players got to sit back to the same side as before and the lighting scheme was changed to take away the light from players' eyes.


This and the rims they were using at the UC were too tight. I remember MJ complaining about this.

[StarJordan]

[quote]
2002

[Jacks3]

Wizards Jordan--50% TS (most inefficient volume scorer ever) :oldlol:

Prime Kobe--57% TS

What was that? :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

No actually he did not..

1991 – 92’ - 51%

1992 – 93’ - 49%

1994 – 95’ - 41%

1995 – 96’- 49%

1996 – 97 - 48%

1997 – 98’ - 46%

2001 – 02’(the Kobe era) – 41%

2002 – 03’ – 44%



this is 2EZ...





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You do realize that .5 rounds UP, right? Or did you fail remedial math as well? So we have:

1993: 50%
1996: 50%
1997: 49%
1998: 47%

[andgar923]

Those last 2 fg% are Kobe-like!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

That's what I'm thinking.

I don't think Alphawolf thought this through properly.

Cause he's basically stating that MJ's worse years, are = to Prime Kobe's.

[AlphaWolf24]

You do realize that .5 rounds UP, right? Or did you fail remedial math as well? So we have:

1993: 50%
1996: 50%
1997: 49%
1998: 47%


You do realize all you stat geeks from (fill in random basketball website here) are F@cking using .#'s% to prove that player ________ is better then player __________???...and when doing that you guys look like F@cking moron's....

you do realize that? right?...


so again...I just copied and pasted his "stats".....and he shot BELOW 50%....

.49 (whatever) is BELOW 50% just like I said...

now scram before I make U my B!tch...

[AlphaWolf24]

That's what I'm thinking.

I don't think Alphawolf thought this through properly.

Cause he's basically stating that MJ's worse years, are = to Prime Kobe's.


HuH???...Kobe was droppin 29PPG 6REB and 6AST in the playoff's leading his team in crunchtime and winning Championships when MJ was shooting 42% - 44% and bricking his way to back to back losing seasons...

don't see how those are even close???...oh yeah...you are a Jordan stan....

Jordan in the Kobe era would have been a Bladheaded Michael Finley..


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[DRose1899]

HuH???...Kobe was droppin 29PPG 6REB and 6AST in the playoff's leading his team in crunchtime and winning Championships when MJ was shooting 42% - 44% and bricking his way to back to back losing seasons...

don't see how those are even close???...oh yeah...you are a Jordan stan....

Jordan in the Kobe era would have been a Bladheaded Michael Finley..


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Yeah because Jordan playing in 2000's as 23 year old :facepalm

[andgar923]

You do realize all you stat geeks from (fill in random basketball website here) are F@cking using .#'s% to prove that player ________ is better then player __________???...and when doing that you guys look like F@cking moron's....

you do realize that? right?...


so again...I just copied and pasted his "stats".....and he shot BELOW 50%....

.49 (whatever) is BELOW 50% just like I said...

now scram before I make U my B!tch...

And yet, MJ in his declining years (Not counting Wizards) is still better than Kobe in his peak.

Wizards MJ is basically = to Kobe's career.

[SuperPippen]

You do realize all you stat geeks from (fill in random basketball website here) are F@cking using .#'s% to prove that player ________ is better then player __________???...and when doing that you guys look like F@cking moron's....

you do realize that? right?...


so again...I just copied and pasted his "stats".....and he shot BELOW 50%....

.49 (whatever) is BELOW 50% just like I said...

now scram before I make U my B!tch...

Say what you will, .495 rounds to 50% because it is CLOSER to 50% than it is to 49%. And '95 wasn't a FULL season. 17 does not equal 82. Nor is it anywhere near 82. Just though I'd let you know.


Oh, and aren't you the one who brought up the topic of numbers and percentages in the first place when you lied that, "MJ only shot above 50% once in his final 8 years?"

If you really aren't a fan of relevant statistics (and seeing as though you believe Kobe > Jordan, it's pretty obvious why you aren't) than how else do you advise people to compare players?


As you like to say, "2EZ."




subsequent

[AlphaWolf24]

Yeah because Jordan playing in 2000's as 23 year old :facepalm


You mean like Broken Back 35 year old Larry Bird merking the Bull's and Prime Jordan??...

Jordan in the 2000's would have been a 42 - 44%FG player No matter what...totally different era then the 80's and early 90's.

and like I have shown , MJ's FG% dropped off as the era's evolved.

[AlphaWolf24]

Say what you will, .495 rounds to 50% because it is CLOSER to 50% than it is to 49%. And '95 wasn't a FULL season. 17 does not equal 82. Nor is it anywhere near 82. Just though I'd let you know.


Oh, and aren't you the one who brought up the topic of numbers and percentages in the first place when you lied that, "MJ only shot above 50% once in his final 8 years?"

If you really aren't a fan of relevant statistics (and seeing as though you believe Kobe > Jordan, it's pretty obvious why you aren't) than how else do you advise people to compare players?


As you like to say, "2EZ."




subsequent


Just stop it already , you have nothing...

49% is below 50%...and like I have said....he shot 50% once his Final 8 seasons....95' wasn't a full season?...ok.....even when he played a full season he didn't shoot 50%...


you can spin it all you want...fact is his FG% dropped off as did the whole league's....it was 2 different era's.....

we all saw him bottom out at 42% in the modern era with zones and traps..

(waits for...but MJ was too old to shoot jumpers).....then watches a 35 year old Larry Bird with a broken Back school a prime MJ and the Bull's....:lol

[DRose1899]

You mean like Broken Back 35 year old Larry Bird merking the Bull's and Prime Jordan??...

Jordan in the 2000's would have been a 42 - 44%FG player No matter what...totally different era then the 80's and early 90's.

and like I have shown , MJ's FG% dropped off as the era's evolved.
:roll: :roll:

Then why Wade had high FG% in 2000's?

their style is almost identical, n btw LOL kobe didn't even shoot above 45% without shaq n pau.

Another thing, you bashing old-ass Jordan shoot 42-44% while 31 year old kobe barely shot 45% last season :roll:

[andgar923]

Just stop it already , you have nothing...

49% is below 50%...and like I have said....he shot 50% once his Final 8 seasons....95' wasn't a full season?...ok.....even when he played a full season he didn't shoot 50%...


you can spin it all you want...fact is his FG% dropped off as did the whole league's....it was 2 different era's.....

we all saw him bottom out at 42% in the modern era with zones and traps..

(waits for...but MJ was too old to shoot jumpers).....then watches a 35 year old Larry Bird with a broken Back school a prime MJ and the Bull's....:lol

Still better than Kobe ever has and ever will be. :lol

And you obviously didn't watch him play as a Wizard, cause you wouldn't be laughing. He didn't shoot 42% (Kobe's career) because the defense was so great. He shot it because he was 40 YEARS OLD you dimwit.

And sure, 35 year old Bird scored on the Bulls, but Wizards MJ was dropping 50 points and multiple 40 and 30+ points vs today's so called superior defenders.

[creepingdeath]

HuH???...Kobe was droppin 29PPG 6REB and 6AST in the playoff's leading his team in crunchtime and winning Championships when MJ was shooting 42% - 44% and bricking his way to back to back losing seasons...

don't see how those are even close???...oh yeah...you are a Jordan stan....

Jordan in the Kobe era would have been a Bladheaded Michael Finley..


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http://i44.tinypic.com/2jb1h1c.gif

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: :roll:

Then why Wade had high FG% in 2000's?

their style is almost identical, n btw LOL kobe didn't even shoot above 45% without shaq n pau.

Another thing, you bashing old-ass Jordan shoot 42-44% while 31 year old kobe barely shot 45% last season :roll:


Because Wade has shot 46% - 47%FG many times in his career...and he takes 5 less shots per game then Jordan did....

and he is a 48%FG in the "00's" despite taking 5 less shots per game then Jordan did....oh yeah..despite taking more shots Kobe is a 45%....3%...whooptity doo!

except Kobe does alot more winning......Wade might want to get his FG% down and his shot attempts up...



oh yeah it's all about FG%FG%FG%FG%FG%FG%FG%FG%

[Da_Realist]

(waits for...but MJ was too old to shoot jumpers).....then watches a 35 year old Larry Bird with a broken Back school a prime MJ and the Bull's....:lol

Near 35 year old broken back Larry Bird schooled the Bulls to the tune of 30 points and 60% shooting on his way... to losing 132 - 113. (11-06-91)

35 year old broken back Larry Bird then blasted the Bulls to a near career high of 8 points on 40% shooting in losing 121-99 on Christmas Day 1991

35 year old broken back Larry Bird showed prime MJ and the Bulls something in his last showdown by exploding for 10 points on 27% shooting in a 119-85 loss to the Bulls. (03-11-92)

:facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jb1h1c.gif


http://vicariousmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/princebball-copy.jpg

Prince would tear you a new azz on the azzfualt....literally and figuratively.

__________________________________________________ ________
:roll: @ Prince's Highschool team stealin the GOAT's name...

[andgar923]

http://vicariousmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/princebball-copy.jpg

Prince would tear you a new azz on the azzfualt....literally and figuratively.

And any way you wanna skew and twist things, MJ is still better than Kobe.

[RRR3]

Alphawolf:
http://i56.tinypic.com/33ku5vc.jpg

[AlphaWolf24]

Still better than Kobe ever has and ever will be. :lol

And you obviously didn't watch him play as a Wizard, cause you wouldn't be laughing. He didn't shoot 42% (Kobe's career) because the defense was so great. He shot it because he was 40 YEARS OLD you dimwit.

And sure, 35 year old Bird scored on the Bulls, but Wizards MJ was dropping 50 points and multiple 40 and 30+ points vs today's so called superior defenders.

38 years old(same age as Jason Kiddand Grant Hill) -http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200112270IND.html

:roll:

[AlphaWolf24]

And any way you wanna skew and twist things, MJ is still better than Kobe.


Not according to the experts...




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[RRR3]

38 years old(same age as Jason Kiddand Grant Hill) -http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200112270IND.html

:roll:
Jason Kidd shot 36.1 percent last year :roll:

[RRR3]

Not according to the experts...




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Who in their right minds thinks Kobe is even close to Jordan? :facepalm How is someone who is tenth all time AT BEST better than the player widely considered (and rightfully so) the greatest ever?!?!?!?

[SuperPippen]

Just stop it already , you have nothing...

49% is below 50%...and like I have said....he shot 50% once his Final 8 seasons....95' wasn't a full season?...ok.....even when he played a full season he didn't shoot 50%...


you can spin it all you want...fact is his FG% dropped off as did the whole league's....it was 2 different era's.....

we all saw him bottom out at 42% in the modern era with zones and traps..

(waits for...but MJ was too old to shoot jumpers).....then watches a 35 year old Larry Bird with a broken Back school a prime MJ and the Bull's....:lol


This is true. 49 is, in fact, below 50.

Don't see how it's relevant, seeing as though Jordan never shot below 50% in any full season before '97, besides '87, when he averaged 37 PPG. BTW, even if you still do consider .495 closer to 49% than 50% (which it's not, and that's a mathematical fact), it still doesn't make those ridiculous season PPG averages any less impressive.

AlphaWolf AGAIN trying to use numbers and percentages to prove a point that isn't there. Didn't you just condemn doing that a couple of posts ago?





subsequent

[catch24]

And you obviously didn't watch him play as a Wizard, cause you wouldn't be laughing. He didn't shoot 42% (Kobe's career) because the defense was so great.

Kobe shoots 42%FG and 49%TS for his career?

[AlphaWolf24]

This is true. 49 is, in fact, below 50.

Don't see how it's relevant, seeing as though Jordan never shot below 50% in any full season before '97, besides '87, when he averaged 37 PPG. BTW, even if you still do consider .495 closer to 49% than 50% (which it's not, and that's a mathematical fact), it still doesn't make those ridiculous season PPG averages any less impressive.

AlphaWolf AGAIN trying to use numbers and percentages to prove a point that isn't there. Didn't you just condemn doing that a couple of posts ago?





subsequent


not at all.....all i said was MJ shot 50% or over 5 times his first 7 seasons....and only once his Final 8 seasons..

you can say .49% is really 50%...but again..Jordan lagacy police are tumblin and stumblin..any way you cut it 49% . whatever is below 50%


round up all you want....for you stat geeks it says plain and day , 49%..not 50%




(opens pocket).....grab ahold son.

[millwad]

Alpha, don't bother, just look at the guy's username...

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe shoots 42%FG and 49%TS for his career?

exactly....this is how pathetic Jordan legacy police or as I like to say the diggity diggity diggity JLP are....according to them Kobe shoots 46% and MJ shoots 49%.567896694436789...so the .3.548940367% is somehow the guiding light end all be all....



(sighs)......:lol @da JLP

[RRR3]

Alpha, don't bother, just look at the guy's username...
Wait...you do realize Alpha is arguing Kobe>MJ, don't you?

[millwad]

Wait...you do realize Alpha is arguing Kobe>MJ, don't you?

Didn't read all of his posts but if that's the case, then let the buttyboy's rock on..

[AlphaWolf24]

Jason Kidd shot 36.1 percent last year :roll:


and nearly averaged a double double...while winning.:confusedshrug:

[EricForman]

Wait...you do realize Alpha is arguing Kobe>MJ, don't you?

Alpha doesn't really argue, more "trolling Kobe > MJ"

[catch24]

exactly....this is how pathetic Jordan legacy police or as I like to say the diggity diggity diggity JLP are....according to them Kobe shoots 46% and MJ shoots 49%.567896694436789...so the .3.548940367% is somehow the guiding light end all be all....



(sighs)......:lol @da JLP

I'm not taking sides or anything, just wondering if this Andgar guy really thinks 42% = 45%FG and 49%=56%TS?

[AlphaWolf24]

Wait...you do realize Alpha is arguing Kobe>MJ, don't you?


I'm just refuting all the JLP's bogus claims....

Don't be Mad...go make some "What kind of help does Lebron need to win , because clearly he doesn't have any on the Heat" threads

leave me alone son....I'm way outta your league......I'm on some Darwinian sh!t talking about String Theory's...

your just an Amoeba in a pool of pediastrum








next

[SuperPippen]

and nearly averaged a double double...while winning.:confusedshrug:

8PPG and 8 APG is nearly a double double now?

And, according to you, Jordan NEARLY averaged 50% shooting while scoring >30 PPG.

Your arguments and double-standards are just laughably bad, bro. Seriously. Forrealz.


BTW, on Jason Kidd's team, there's this guy named Dirk Nowitzki, I'm not sure if you know who he is?





subesequent

[AlphaWolf24]

Alpha doesn't really argue, more "trolling Kobe > MJ"


yeah I'm a troll because I said 49% is below 50%.....

yet you aint callin out the JLP??.....

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lixx6lDwB91qzy1xv.gif

[AlphaWolf24]

8PPG and 8 APG is nearly a double double now?

And, according to you, Jordan NEARLY averaged 50% shooting while scoring >30 PPG.

Your arguments and double-standards are just laughably bad, bro. Seriously. Forrealz.


BTW, on Jason Kidd's team, there's this guy named Dirk Nowitzki, I'm not sure if you know who he is?





subesequent


so wait...now you can't round up:roll: ..... the 11' Mav's were close to the 02' Wizards...

and you acting like anyone thought the Mav's would get past Portland??...

don't come back now and say the Mav's were thought o as a great team...Dirk was thought of as a Notorious Choker before this year...

I see right through all your agenda driven B.S.....



you can also http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lixx6lDwB91qzy1xv.gif



:lol @ daJLP

[AlphaWolf24]

Near 35 year old broken back Larry Bird schooled the Bulls to the tune of 30 points and 60% shooting on his way... to losing 132 - 113. (11-06-91)

35 year old broken back Larry Bird then blasted the Bulls to a near career high of 8 points on 40% shooting in losing 121-99 on Christmas Day 1991

35 year old broken back Larry Bird showed prime MJ and the Bulls something in his last showdown by exploding for 10 points on 27% shooting in a 119-85 loss to the Bulls. (03-11-92)

:facepalm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmiggKJirm8 :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[SuperPippen]

so wait...now you can't round up:roll: ..... the 11' Mav's were close to the 02' Wizards...

and you acting like anyone thought the Mav's would get past Portland??...

don't come back now and say the Mav's were thought o as a great team...Dirk was thought of as a Notorious Choker before this year...

I see right through all your agenda driven B.S.....



you can also http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lixx6lDwB91qzy1xv.gif



:lol @ daJLP

Jason Kidd's 2011 stats according to BBallReference:

7.9 points per game, which any logical person would almost always round up to 8, as I did in my last post.

.361 FG%, which doesn't round up, so any logical person would say he shot 36%.

8.2 assists per game, which, again, doesn't round up, because it's a lot closer to 8 than to 9.

All of that at age 38.



And how does all that Mavs shit you typed have anything to do with the topic at hand? Like, at all? In any way?

You're just typing random shit up to make it seem like you just might know what you're talking about (spoiler alert: you don't, at all) to any one who gives your posts a passing glance.

That's below even your already incredibly low standards, Alpha.





subsequent

[97 bulls]

Like a few of the posters have already stated, they lost their homecourt advantage for one thing when they moved to the united center.

But the main reason is that they just didn't have any quality bigmen pass luc longley who was at best decent.

It wasn't just grant, they lost scott williams, stacey king, and bill cartwright. And as if loosing them wasn't bad, the replced them with larry krystowiak, corie blount, and dickey simpkins. 3 guys that at best were injured reserve type players.

They had no interior defense, scoring, or rebounding to speak of. How they had the second ranked defense and were able to win over 50% of their games is an amzing feat.

[Da_Realist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmiggKJirm8 :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

That's the season he turned 34 years old, not 35. Also in the previous matchup against the Bulls that season, the Celtics lost by 30 points with Larry scoring 12 points on 43%. The matchup before THAT the Celtics lost by 20 points with Larry scoring 23 points on 40%.

Larry's last two seasons the Bulls beat the Celtics by 19, 22, 34 :wtf:, 20 and 30 points. They did lose a double overtime game and a game at the buzzer to the Celtics, though. But clearly 35 year old broke back Larry wasn't making miracles out there.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmiggKJirm8 :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

There's one thing that stands out to me in this game and it illustrates something that a lot of people don't mention. Many people criticize players such as Kobe, Iverson, Rose, etc for shot selection. Look at those shots Jordan was taking. Those were tough as hell but he was such a great finisher that those were makeable for him.

Great game though. Bird even as a broken, older man still had quite the touch. Like they say your shot is the last thing to leave you

[AlphaWolf24]

Jason Kidd's 2011 stats according to BBallReference:

7.9 points per game, which any logical person would almost always round up to 8, as I did in my last post.

.361 FG%, which doesn't round up, so any logical person would say he shot 36%.

8.2 assists per game, which, again, doesn't round up, because it's a lot closer to 8 than to 9.

All of that at age 38.



And how does all that Mavs shit you typed have anything to do with the topic at hand? Like, at all? In any way?

You're just typing random shit up to make it seem like you just might know what you're talking about (spoiler alert: you don't, at all) to any one who gives your posts a passing glance.

That's below even your already incredibly low standards, Alpha.





subsequent



No , you fail to see my point because hardly anyone here (except for a few outside the real of staleness) understand what I was trying to show...


Jason Kidd was great at what his role is this year....he helped lead a team who No one thought was a contender to a championship against one of the most stacked teams (on paper) ever....

is J Kidd a similar player in a similar role to Michael Jordan?.....NO.....

But Kidd played his role (the same role for nearly his whole career) perfect...he made timely shots and got everyone involved...and IMO helped his team win like he has always done , at a advanced age...



and yet we have the JLP comparing Jason Kidd's FG% to a 6'6" scoring gaurd who takes over 20 FG attempts per game.....


why?.....why compare FG%...when I was showing J Kidd was still doing his role like he's always done very well and help leading his team to the promise land.......at nearly the same age as Jordan was on the Wizards.....and despite having similar teams....Jordan didn't do anywhere near as good of job.....despite shooting more , scoring more and yes ....shooting 42% - 44% FG a higher % then Kidd.

[AlphaWolf24]

Like a few of the posters have already stated, they lost their homecourt advantage for one thing when they moved to the united center.

But the main reason is that they just didn't have any quality bigmen pass luc longley who was at best decent.

It wasn't just grant, they lost scott williams, stacey king, and bill cartwright. And as if loosing them wasn't bad, the replced them with larry krystowiak, corie blount, and dickey simpkins. 3 guys that at best were injured reserve type players.

They had no interior defense, scoring, or rebounding to speak of. How they had the second ranked defense and were able to win over 50% of their games is an amzing feat.


None of the so called bull's fans will comprehend this excellent post....

JLP will only hear "MJ was RUSTY"...but a couple months later he wasn't and the bull's won 70 games because all da Rusty "fell off"

[SuperPippen]

There's one thing that stands out to me in this game and it illustrates something that a lot of people don't mention. Many people criticize players such as Kobe, Iverson, Rose, etc for shot selection. Look at those shots Jordan was taking. Those were tough as hell but he was such a great finisher that those were makeable for him.

Great game though. Bird even as a broken, older man still had quite the touch. Like they say your shot is the last thing to leave you

Never bought into the whole "Kobe is a shot jacker thing." When Shaq was still on the Lakers, I understood it, because Shaq was simply a better offensive option that didn't shoot nearly as much as he should have in some games, but very rarely has Kobe truly ever shot his team out of a victory in the past 7 years.

I mean, he could and still can make those insane shots at a higher rate than pretty much anyone else in the league, his teams are usually the better for it, and his FG% was never bad, so why shouldn't he shoot like that?

Very much agreed about Bird. That he was still capable of playing at a high level at age 35 with a ravaged back is a testament to his greatness. "He couldn't play today" my ass.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Never bought into the whole "Kobe is a shot jacker thing." When Shaq was still on the Lakers, I understood it, because Shaq was simply a better offensive option that didn't shoot nearly as much as he should have in some games, but very rarely has Kobe truly ever shot his team out of a victory in the past 7 years.

I mean, he could and still can make those insane shots at a higher rate than pretty much anyone else in the league, his teams are usually the better for it, and his FG% was never bad, so why shouldn't he shoot like that?

Very much agreed about Bird. That he was still capable of playing at a high level at age 35 with a ravaged back is a testament to his greatness. "He couldn't play today" my ass.

I agree. I mean, it isn't like he doesn't take ill advised shots. Lots of players do. It's just a part of the game. But sometimes as spectators what we think is a tough shot may not necessarily be a tough one for the player in question.

Those little floaters that Rose likes to do. Those tough fadeaways Kobe does. They practice those and are very good at them. Are they the highest percentage shots? No, but they are makeable.

[guy]

I find it hilarious that Kobe trolls have to resort to bringing up Jordan's days as a Wizard when he was 39-40 years old to prop up Kobe. If you feel the need to compare any of Kobe's seasons from 2000 to today to Jordan's Wizards seasons, then you are basically admitting Kobe isn't better.

[guy]

Like a few of the posters have already stated, they lost their homecourt advantage for one thing when they moved to the united center.

But the main reason is that they just didn't have any quality bigmen pass luc longley who was at best decent.

It wasn't just grant, they lost scott williams, stacey king, and bill cartwright. And as if loosing them wasn't bad, the replced them with larry krystowiak, corie blount, and dickey simpkins. 3 guys that at best were injured reserve type players.

They had no interior defense, scoring, or rebounding to speak of. How they had the second ranked defense and were able to win over 50% of their games is an amzing feat.

I think the Bulls at least make it to the Finals if Jordan had played a full season instead of coming back late into the season, or if they had some quality big men even with his late return. One or the other.

What people don't realize though when these "what if Jordan never retired" topics come up is that its very doubtful that Bulls team is constructed the way they were going into the 95 season if Jordan was around. They had no problem letting Grant go, and really weren't that concerned with replacing him. The Bulls were looking to actually trade Pippen for Kemp, which goes to show they were looking to rebuild around Kemp+Kukoc and really didn't have the intention of trying to contend that year.

[Solid Snake]

I might have misread this somewhere, but didn't he have a 55 point game during his return year?


Uh, have you never heard of the "Double Nickel" game against the Knicks?

[97 bulls]

I think the Bulls at least make it to the Finals if Jordan had played a full season instead of coming back late into the season, or if they had some quality big men even with his late return. One or the other.

What people don't realize though when these "what if Jordan never retired" topics come up is that its very doubtful that Bulls team is constructed the way they were going into the 95 season if Jordan was around. They had no problem letting Grant go, and really weren't that concerned with replacing him. The Bulls were looking to actually trade Pippen for Kemp, which goes to show they were looking to rebuild around Kemp+Kukoc and really didn't have the intention of trying to contend that year.
True. Its all conjecture.

However, grant made it very clear he wasn't resigning with the bulls. The same with scott williams. But I do agree the bulls seemed to be in rebuilding mode. And pippen would've been next had jordan not returned. As well as jackson.

I'm not sure they get past orlando in any way shape or form without a competant bigman. And I must admit longley improved to.

[juju151111]

Near 35 year old broken back Larry Bird schooled the Bulls to the tune of 30 points and 60% shooting on his way... to losing 132 - 113. (11-06-91)

35 year old broken back Larry Bird then blasted the Bulls to a near career high of 8 points on 40% shooting in losing 121-99 on Christmas Day 1991

35 year old broken back Larry Bird showed prime MJ and the Bulls something in his last showdown:lol by exploding for 10 points on 27% shooting in a 119-85 loss to the Bulls. (03-11-92)

:facepalm
:lol :roll: Owned