Shaq breaks on all the other centers...

[Pointguard]

"All the othe centers I demolished crushed and obliterated. Hakeem is the only one I couldn’t… Hakeem had all the skills and I just couldn’t break him. A lot of guys I could break mentally first before the game even started."

On yahoo sports radio. The comment above is at the six minute mark.

http://www.yahoosportsradio.com/nba/shaq0914-7275/

[BlackJoker23]

whole interview
How are you?

Whats up buddy, how are you?

Doing good. Good to have you on the program. I know a lot of fans are excited to see you on TV. That show has such great chemistry with Kenny, Ernie and Charles. Have they talked about your role? Just Shaq being Shaq?

Yeah, just me being me but when I go up there, you have another expert. I consider Ernie an expert, I consider Charles an expert. One more expert on the panel of four.

Are you going to make a point to wear all four rings on the first night just show you can show them to Charles?

No, no, I'll never do that.

On the lockout, what's your sense on this thing? Are we in for 1999 all over again or could it be worse?

The only people who really get messed around with in this whole situation is the fans. If both sides come to a great business agreement and get things going on time, it will be good but I'm hearing that's not the case right now but hopefully gets resolved very soon.

As a former player, only for a few months now but do you think the players watched what went on with the NFL and saw them kind of come together in that whole thing and take that as a lesson that we need to repair this thing quickly?

I think they did but you have to understand one of the critical issues: not all NBA teams are making money. That's the owner's beef. They want to cut back on certain things and players want certain things. It's all business. All the teams in the NFL are making money so it was advantageous and quick for them to go do what they needed to do. The NBA is different. A lot has to be talked about and hopefully they get it done.

Do the guys generally believe, I think the number was 22 out of 30 owners are losing money. Do the guys generally believe those numbers are accurate?

I think if you have a smart enough business to open the books and look at the books, see what really goes on, that may be true, it may not be true, but ???(open the books?)

In 1999, the owners waited out. A certain fraction of players need the money, living paycheck to paycheck. You have been good with your money. Have you seen a teammate reckless like that and pulled him aside and said what are you doing?

I dont want to talk about people's personal life's but there are stories on the internet, and stories about what guys have done. I'm not at liberty to say this guy has done this or this guy has done that.

COming off a great 2010-2011 season. LeBron took a lot of criticism during the Finals. Justified?

Some of it probably wasn't but everyone goes through it. Jordan, the greatest player in the world, took a lot criticism, I took criticism, Magic took criticism, Kareem took criticism. LeBron is a great player, great team player. He was playing great team ball but when you play great team ball and dont win, of course being the best player on the planet, all the blame is on you.

LeBron a good teammate?

Best teammate ever. Very unselfish. He wants to get you involved before he gets himself involved. Now in Miami where you have another guy who dominates the ball, they had to mix it up at times. They had the most success when Wade was scoring one night, then LeBron scoring one night. Both those guys cant take 30 shots and get 30 points.

Do you think the mix right now can work or do they need to add something to make it work and win a title?

I think the mix can work. They made it to the finals and fell short to a better team. Dallas was more well-rounded. Ball moved more, Dirk played out of his mind.

Also played with Kobe. Do you think Kobe gets out when he has some game left or will they have to drag him off the floor?

Probably have to drag off the floor. Already is the number one Laker. He always used to say that when he was 18. "I'm gonna be the number one Laker, the number one player ever", he accomplished all that. He probably wants to tie Mike with six rings or even get seven rings. He already passed everybody up as far as points, game played, everything in that organization, he wants to be the number one guy.

This show is based out of Houston. You faced Hakeem in the finals early in your career. Who was your toughest matchup when you were in the game?

First, I want to thank people for going to all my 24 hour fitness' in Houston and in Pearland. I live in Pearland actually. Second of all, Hakeem was the only guy, only center I couldn't defeat. All the other ones I demolished and crushed and obliterated. Hakeem Olajuwon was the only one I couldnt.

What made him so tough?

He had all skills. I couldn't break him. A lot of guys I could break mentally first before the game even started.

You went 68-1 in 2 years at Cole HS in SA. What did that one team do to beat you?

I missed 4 FTs with like 25 secs left.

The Oreo triple-double promotion you have going on. Talk about that.

Oreo has changed the game when it comes to how you twist, lick and dunk your cookie. Now got this triple double, combing two layers of oreo creme, one chocolate and one of the original. One of the best oreos out there and only 100 calories per cookie so thats nice

Watching the calories now that you're out of the game?

Yes I am.

You made a ton of money. You're into so many things. What intrigues me the most about you, you went back and not only got your degree but got an online degree at the University of Phoenix in MBA. Do you let the University of Phoenix count your income towards the average income for their graduates?

I have to correct you there buddy. It wasnt online. UoP is set-up online but I got with the university and I went to class.

Did you really?

Of course. I didnt want people to question me doing it online. I went to class brother. Every day.

Thats great. What was it like?

It was me and 12 other students. It was fun. Got a chance to bond together, learn together and grow together.

Best of luck with Oreos and look forward to seeing you on TV.

Thank you.

lebron best teammate ever lmao

[SoCalMike]

Dang, I would have loved to see a Shaq prime vs. Wilt prime battle... that would have been awesome!



:pimp:

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Hakeem%20Olajuwon/VS/Shaquille%20Oneal/1995shaqvshakeem3.gif


whole interview
lebron best teammate ever lmao

:oldlol:

[inclinerator]

wats so funny about lebron being a good teammate?

[RoseCity07]

Sabonis would have owned Shaq. We saw how bad shaq was with barely any injuries at the same age that Sabonis was when he came over. I wish I could see 1990 Sabonis vs 2009 Shaq and see who looks better. Shaq would be singing a different tune right now. Shaq also got spanked by a young Tim Duncan.

[LebronairJAMES]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Hakeem%20Olajuwon/VS/Shaquille%20Oneal/1995shaqvshakeem3.gif



:oldlol:
whats so funny ******

[Scoooter]

So he owns multiple gym's in the Houston area. Nice. Smart and ironic.

[boozehound]

Sabonis would have owned Shaq. We saw how bad shaq was with barely any injuries at the same age that Sabonis was when he came over. I wish I could see 1990 Sabonis vs 2009 Shaq and see who looks better. Shaq would be singing a different tune right now. Shaq also got spanked by a young Tim Duncan.
no doubt this is an overstatement. though he was quite dominant. at least as much because the refs swallowed their whistles most of the time. Dude was basically opening a whole like a fullback and then hitting it.

[jlauber]

Sabonis would have owned Shaq. We saw how bad shaq was with barely any injuries at the same age that Sabonis was when he came over. I wish I could see 1990 Sabonis vs 2009 Shaq and see who looks better. Shaq would be singing a different tune right now. Shaq also got spanked by a young Tim Duncan.

I don't recall Duncan ever "spanking" Shaq. In fact, when Duncan was guarded strictly by Shaq, which usually occurred in 4th quarters, he struggled to shoot 40% at those times (and it was probably closer to 33%.) A prime Sabonis would have no more success than a prime Ben Wallace (who couldn't "hold" Shaq down at all without help.)

And I really believe Shaq was being kind towards Hakeem, whom he outplayed over the course of their entire careers (in terms of both stats and wins.)


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

[G-train]

And I really believe Shaq was being kind towards Hakeem, whom he outplayed over the course of their entire careers (in terms of both stats and wins.)


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

Olajuwon beat Shaq when it mattered. And Shaq probably judged with gameplay not stats.

[boozehound]

I don't recall Duncan ever "spanking" Shaq. In fact, when Duncan was guarded strictly by Shaq, which usually occurred in 4th quarters, he struggled to shoot 40% at those times (and it was probably closer to 33%.) A prime Sabonis would have no more success than a prime Ben Wallace (who couldn't "hold" Shaq down at all without help.)

And I really believe Shaq was being kind towards Hakeem, whom he outplayed over the course of their entire careers (in terms of both stats and wins.)


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01
did you see the three years in a row that old ass sabas played him in the playoffs? Sure, he didnt shut him down by any stretch, but he was one of the better shaq defenders despite his age and crippled state. Oh yeah, how did that finals matchup between ben wallace and shaq end up? I forget.


also, you dont play against stats and wins. Hes talking about direct competition and specifically the outcome of games/series

[donald_trump]

Olajuwon beat Shaq when it mattered. And Shaq probably judged with gameplay not stats.

shaq didnt get dominated, his team did.
he was neck and neck with hakeem in that series. and the only reason he holds hakeem in such high regard was because he beat him in the finals. and that was only shaqs 3rd year.

shaq would have mopped the floor with him given a few more years. though that goes for everyone thats ever stepped on the hardwood.

[G-train]

shaq didnt get dominated, his team did.
he was neck and neck with hakeem in that series. and the only reason he holds hakeem in such high regard was because he beat him in the finals. and that was only shaqs 3rd year.

shaq would have mopped the floor with him given a few more years. though that goes for everyone thats ever stepped on the hardwood.

Underrating Olajuwon there. No centre in hostory wipes the floor with prime Hakeem.

And no, Shaq wasnt neck and neck with Olajuwon. Statistically? maybe. I never said he domianted him either.

I suggest watching that series and then tell me he was neck and neck with him. Stats rarely tell the story.

[jlauber]

did you see the three years in a row that old ass sabas played him in the playoffs? Sure, he didnt shut him down by any stretch, but he was one of the better shaq defenders despite his age and crippled state. Oh yeah, how did that finals matchup between ben wallace and shaq end up? I forget.


Hakeem vs Shaq in the post-season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01#stats_playoffs

Duncan vs Shaq in the post-season...

regular season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

post-season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

Now, take away Shaq vs Duncan in '08, when Shaq was obviously well past his prime, and Shaq holds a 14-11 record.



Sabonis vs Shaq in the regular season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=sabonar01&p2=onealsh01

and in the post-season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=sabonar01&p2=onealsh01#stats_playoffs


Wallace vs. Shaq in the regular season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wallabe01&p2=onealsh01

Wallace vs Shaq in the post-season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wallabe01&p2=onealsh01#stats_playoffs

And in the '04 Finals, Shaq averaged 26.6 ppg on .631 shooting.

[Pointguard]

Hakeem vs Shaq in the post-season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01#stats_playoffs

Duncan vs Shaq in the post-season...

regular season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

post-season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

Now, take away Shaq vs Duncan in '08, when Shaq was obviously well past his prime, and Shaq holds a 14-11 record.



Sabonis vs Shaq in the regular season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=sabonar01&p2=onealsh01

and in the post-season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=sabonar01&p2=onealsh01#stats_playoffs


Wallace vs. Shaq in the regular season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wallabe01&p2=onealsh01

Wallace vs Shaq in the post-season...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wallabe01&p2=onealsh01#stats_playoffs

And in the '04 Finals, Shaq averaged 26.6 ppg on .631 shooting.

Duncan is amazing. If he had Shaq's squads it wouldn't be close - careerwise or head to head.

[brantonli]

I don't recall Duncan ever "spanking" Shaq. In fact, when Duncan was guarded strictly by Shaq, which usually occurred in 4th quarters, he struggled to shoot 40% at those times (and it was probably closer to 33%.) A prime Sabonis would have no more success than a prime Ben Wallace (who couldn't "hold" Shaq down at all without help.)

And I really believe Shaq was being kind towards Hakeem, whom he outplayed over the course of their entire careers (in terms of both stats and wins.)


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

Let's be honest here, somebody with the ego the size of Shaq's, isn't going to be 'kind' to just any random guy he's played against. The fact that Shaq didn't bother mentioning Duncan, Mutombo, or any other center he played with, is a mark of how much he respected Hakeem. jlauber, I respect your NBA knowledge and vociferous defence of old school players, but I would believe the guy who actually played in the NBA Finals against Hakeem, and got humbled so much he actually respects him, rather than the numbers.


This show is based out of Houston. You faced Hakeem in the finals early in your career. Who was your toughest matchup when you were in the game?

First, I want to thank people for going to all my 24 hour fitness' in Houston and in Pearland. I live in Pearland actually. Second of all, Hakeem was the only guy, only center I couldn't defeat. All the other ones I demolished and crushed and obliterated. Hakeem Olajuwon was the only one I couldnt.

What made him so tough?

He had all skills. I couldn't break him. A lot of guys I could break mentally first before the game even started.


Also, Shaq specifically said he couldn't 'defeat' Hakeem not because of any physical trait, like having a higher vertical or more strength or quicker, but mentality. And I seriously doubt that would change 'given a few more years'.

And I don't think it's 100% fair to use the Houston-Orlando series against Shaq, because he was most guarded by Charles Jones anyway, not Hakeem during that series.

[jlauber]

Let's be honest here, somebody with the ego the size of Shaq's, isn't going to be 'kind' to just any random guy he's played against. The fact that Shaq didn't bother mentioning Duncan, Mutombo, or any other center he played with, is a mark of how much he respected Hakeem. jlauber, I respect your NBA knowledge and vociferous defence of old school players, but I would believe the guy who actually played in the NBA Finals against Hakeem, and got humbled so much he actually respects him, rather than the numbers.



Also, Shaq specifically said he couldn't 'defeat' Hakeem not because of any physical trait, like having a higher vertical or more strength or quicker, but mentality. And I seriously doubt that would change 'given a few more years'.

And I don't think it's 100% fair to use the Houston-Orlando series against Shaq, because he was most guarded by Charles Jones anyway, not Hakeem during that series.

Hakeem was a Top-10 player all-time. But, for some reason, there is this perception that he outplayed Shaq. Even at Hakeem's peak, and with Shaq playing early in his career, the two battled to a statistical draw in the '95 Finals (Hakeem outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, while Shaq outrebounded Hakeem, 12.5 rpg to 11.2 rog, and Shaq outshot Hakeem, .595 to .483. And, yes, it was a Houston sweep, but two of the games were decided by a total of five points (and one in OT), and another one in the last couple of minutes.

The rest of their career, aside from those four games, decidedly belonged to Shaq (including the post-season.) And Shaq not only easily outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Hakeem in their other 24 H2H games, he also had a 17-7 record against him (including 3-1 in their other H2H playoff series.)

[RazorBaLade]

Hakeem was a Top-10 player all-time. But, for some reason, there is this perception that he outplayed Shaq. Even at Hakeem's peak, and with Shaq playing early in his career, the two battled to a statistical draw in the '95 Finals (Hakeem outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, while Shaq outrebounded Hakeem, 12.5 rpg to 11.2 rog, and Shaq outshot Hakeem, .595 to .483. And, yes, it was a Houston sweep, but two of the games were decided by a total of five points (and one in OT), and another one in the last couple of minutes.

The rest of their career, aside from those four games, decidedly belonged to Shaq (including the post-season.) And Shaq not only easily outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Hakeem in their other 24 H2H games, he also had a 17-7 record against him (including 3-1 in their other H2H playoff series.)

and that is why points > rebounds, fg and everything else

[brantonli]

I thought my point about the Houston-Orland Finals series was that, well, it's not really a fair comparison (for either Shaq or Hakeem) because neither guarded each other much (from what I recall from watching the 4 games). It's far more accurate to say 'Shaq shot .595 against the Houston team (Jones) to Hakeem shooting .483 against the Magic' than to imply that somehow they achieved these FG% whilst playing almost 1-on-1 against each other.

[millwad]

Guys, honestly, don't listen to the old fart Jlauber.

He can't even admit that Wilt got his ass kicked by Jabbar who averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on Wilt in the regular season of 72 (the same year Wilt got his 2nd ring) and the same year he got outscored with 23 points a game by Kareem in the playoffs while having even worse FG% than Kareem.

Shaq always gave Hakeem credit for playing him the toughest and playing him the best. And yes, Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the 1995 finals even though Shaq played a great series.

What's really funny is that Jlauber doesn't consider that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the 1995 finals even though Shaq tells everyone that Hakeem did but he consider that Jabbar got schooled by Wilt when he outscored Wilt with 23 points per game in the playoffs, had more assists, shot with better FG% and twice as good FT%..

But he consider that Wilt Chamberlain "schooled" Kareem in the '72-season while being abused in the regular season by Kareem who trashed him with his 40 point average per game on 50% on Wilt. And then when the playoffs came around Wilt couldn't even hit any shots even though he only averaged 10.8 points per game compared to Jabbar's 34 points per game and still according to this old fart, Wilt schooled Kareem.. Haha.

"If I'm going to fight you, I'd rather just beat you," he said. "If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]. . . . I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt. - Shaquille O'neal

[Odinn]

Now, take away Shaq vs Duncan in '08, when Shaq was obviously well past his prime, and Shaq holds a 14-11 record.

If we take away 08 series, combined 99-01-02-03-04 series;

Duncan; 25.8ppg/12.9rpg/4.1apg/2.4bpg/0.9spg/4.0tpg/0.483fg%/0.727ft%/29.4eff
Shaq; 23.9ppg/13.5rpg/2.5apg/2.8bpg/0.6spg/3.0tpg/0.536fg%/0.532ft%/27.5eff

[jlauber]

Guys, honestly, don't listen to the old fart Jlauber.

He can't even admit that Wilt got his ass kicked by Jabbar who averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on Wilt in the regular season of 72 (the same year Wilt got his 2nd ring) and the same year he got outscored with 23 points a game by Kareem in the playoffs while having even worse FG% than Kareem.

Shaq always gave Hakeem credit for playing him the toughest and playing him the best. And yes, Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the 1995 finals even though Shaq played a great series.

What's really funny is that Jlauber doesn't consider that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the 1995 finals even though Shaq tells everyone that Hakeem did but he consider that Jabbar got schooled by Wilt when he outscored Wilt with 23 points per game in the playoffs, had more assists, shot with better FG% and twice as good FT%..

But he consider that Wilt Chamberlain "schooled" Kareem in the '72-season while being abused in the regular season by Kareem who trashed him with his 40 point average per game on 50% on Wilt. And then when the playoffs came around Wilt couldn't even hit any shots even though he only averaged 10.8 points per game compared to Jabbar's 34 points per game and still according to this old fart, Wilt schooled Kareem.. Haha.

"If I'm going to fight you, I'd rather just beat you," he said. "If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]. . . . I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt. - Shaquille O'neal

Dickwad once again making a complete fool of himself. Chamberlain was 35 years old in '72, and playing on a surgically repaired knee..and battling a PRIME Kareem. Of course, Wilt's Lakers went 8-3 against Kareem's Bucks that season, and in the WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to .457 shooting, (Kareem had shot .574 against the league that season.) What's more was that Chamberlain pounded Kareem physically in the last four games of that six game series (three Laker wins), including holding Kareem to an AWFUL .414 shooting... AND blocking at LEAST 15 sky-hooks in that series (those are the KNOWN blocks, covering three games of that series.) And virtually EVERYONE clamed that Wilt outplayed Kareem in that series. Time Magazine hailed Wilt as having DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem in that series. Even the MILWAUKEE press proclaimed Wilt as outplaying Kareem.

Once again, that was an OLD Chamberlain, and against a PRIME Kareem (in perhaps his finest season.) BTW, Chamberlain shredded Kareem in their only H2H game before his knee injury.

Now, think about this... an OLD Kareem...38 years old and barely able to get six rebounds per game, and facing a 23 year old Hakeem (and keep in mind that a 23 year old Kareem led the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting, with 16.0 rpg..en route to an MVP and a FMVP...and who a 34 year-old Chamberlain battled to a complete statistical draw in their 10 H2H games that season), just CRUSHED Hakeem in their five regular season games, averaging 33 ppg on...get this... .634 shooting (Kareem was a career .559 shooter BTW.) BTW, Kareem, at ages 37 and 38, hung THREE games of 40+ on Hakeem...including one of 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes... AND, in which Hakeem's coach was criticized for having Hakeem TRY to guard Kareem the entire 37 minutes. Oh, and BTW, Kareem, in his known 18 fregular season H2H games against Hakeem, and from ages 38 thru 41, averaged 20.2 ppg on .599 shooting against Hakeem-led teams. And, that does not include the 84-85 season, in which Kareem pounded Hakeem with a 40 point game.

And how about this? A PRIME Shaq just BUSTED Hakeem apart in their '99 playoffs H2H, including a career high game against Hakeem of 37 points. Granted, Hakeem was past his prime, but why does a more PRIME Hakeem get some kind of credit for outplaying a YOUNG Shaq (and here again, "outplaying" him was questionable at best)...but virtually no one brings up their other 24 H2H games in which Shaq was CLEARLY a better player.

In any case, what is also interesting about Shaq's career H2H's against Hakeem, was that he only had four games of 30+ against Hakeem...and yet, a 38 year-old Kareem could POUR in THREE games of 40+ against a 23 year old Hakeem (at the same age as Kareem was just dominating the NBA...although he couldn't outplay a 34 year old Wilt, who was nowhere near his prime.) The fact was, an OLD Kareem scored at WILL against Hakeem.

What we don't have in these Hakeem-Kareem-Wilt discussions are these...a PRIME Kareem vs. a PRIME Hakeem, and a PRIME Chamberlain vs. a PRIME Kareem.

As for the Wilt vs. Kareem debates...

A PRIME Chamberlain absolutely obliterated many of the SAME centers that Kareem would face in his career, and to a FAR greater extent than Kareem EVER did. Chamberlain was averaging 40 ppg during an entire SEASON against HOFer Willis Reed, and over the course of his career against him, he had THREE games of 50+, including a high game of 58. Wilt also averaged 55 ppg against HOFer Walt Bellamy one entire SEASON, and over the course of their H2H career, Wilt had THREE games of 60+ against him, including a high game of 73! And a PRIME "scoring" Wilt only faced Thurmond in a handful of games, but he still found time to hang several 30+ games on him, including one game in which he outscored Thurmond, 45-13. And, how about this? In Wilt's 68-69 season, and in a year in which he only averaged 14 FGAs per game, he still found time to pour in TWO of his 32 60+ point games...against Dierking and Fox (and that one was on an incredible 29-35 shooting performance)...and yet, Kareem faced those two guys the very next season, and even after that...and NEVER had anything close to a 60 point game against them (Kareem's career high was 55 points...although he probably could have easily topped that in his 46 point game against Hakeem, when he only played 37 minutes.)

Kareem faced all of those guys, and never came close to the numbers that a PRIME Wilt hung on them. In fact, Kareem faced Thurmond in some 50+ H2H games, and his HIGH game was only 34 points.

So, what we are left pondering is just how much more dominant a PRIME Kareem would have been against Hakeem...and just how much more dominant a PRIME Wilt would have been against Kareem.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Duncan is amazing. If he had Shaq's squads it wouldn't be close - careerwise or head to head.

:oldlol: So many things wrong this statement.

[Fatal9]

And I really believe Shaq was being kind towards Hakeem, whom he outplayed over the course of their entire careers (in terms of both stats and wins.)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

Like usual, amazed by your inability to look at stats in context. Half the games are past Hakeem's prime, while all the games are when Shaq was young and either in his prime or close to it. Through '96 their numbers were 25/11/5/3.5 on 46% for Hakeem to 22/14/3/1.5 on 57% for Shaq.

And basketball, ESPECIALLY for centers is not a one on one game. While the regular season games I've seen Shaq/Hakeem guarded each other more than say D-Rob/Hakeem did, the 90s centers went a lot of games without guarding each other much in the first 2-3 quarters to avoid foul trouble. Also completely different help defenders, different teammates to create shots etc etc etc.

This isn't something Shaq has said one time to be nice (that Hakeem was his toughest challenge, or he couldn't outplay him etc etc), this is something he's said for basically his entire career, so I'm pretty sure he means/believes this.

[jlauber]

Like usual, amazed by your inability to look at stats in context. Half the games are past Hakeem's prime, while all the games are when Shaq was young and either in his prime or close to it. Through '96 their numbers were 25/11/5/3.5 on 46% for Hakeem to 22/14/3/1.5 on 57% for Shaq.

And basketball, ESPECIALLY for centers is not a one on one game. While the regular season games I've seen Shaq/Hakeem guarded each other more than say D-Rob/Hakeem did, the 90s centers went a lot of games without guarding each other much in the first 2-3 quarters to avoid foul trouble. Also completely different help defenders, different teammates to create shots etc etc etc.

This isn't something Shaq has said one time to be nice (that Hakeem was his toughest challenge, or he couldn't outplay him etc etc), this is something he's said for basically his entire career, so I'm pretty sure he means/believes this.

Even if I were to agree with your points here, (and they are valid), Shaq STILL pretty much outplayed Hakeem in those "prime Hakeem" years. AND, Shaq was nowhere near his peak in '95, either.

What amazes me, though, is that Hakeem is basically being credited with outplaying Shaq, for their CAREERS, by so many...for that '95 Final series (and in which Shaq had a case as being at least Hakeem's equal.) And once again, exclude that '95 series, and in the rest of their 24 H2H games Shaq was clearly the more dominant player.

Same with the Robinson-Hakeem battles. Hakeem easily outplayed Robinson in ONE playoff series, covering six games. BUT, how about their other 42 H2H games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=olajuha01

Robinson matched Hakeem in virtually EVERY single category. In fact, it is almost a mirror image, except that Hakeem slightly outscored Robinson, 21.9 ppg to 19.6 ppg, while Robinson had a solid .488 to .441 edge in FG%. Oh, and BTW, Robinson's TEAMs went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

[Soothing Layup]

I love shaq

[juju151111]

Hakeem was a Top-10 player all-time. But, for some reason, there is this perception that he outplayed Shaq. Even at Hakeem's peak, and with Shaq playing early in his career, the two battled to a statistical draw in the '95 Finals (Hakeem outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, while Shaq outrebounded Hakeem, 12.5 rpg to 11.2 rog, and Shaq outshot Hakeem, .595 to .483. And, yes, it was a Houston sweep, but two of the games were decided by a total of five points (and one in OT), and another one in the last couple of minutes.

The rest of their career, aside from those four games, decidedly belonged to Shaq (including the post-season.) And Shaq not only easily outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Hakeem in their other 24 H2H games, he also had a 17-7 record against him (including 3-1 in their other H2H playoff series.)
The rest of his career Hakeem was injured and out of his prime. You also don't take intoaccount the clutch plays Hakeem made in those finals and Shaq TO.4 TO per gm isn't good. Shaq knows this. I wish Shaq would of came in the leagueat 88

[juju151111]

Like usual, amazed by your inability to look at stats in context. Half the games are past Hakeem's prime, while all the games are when Shaq was young and either in his prime or close to it. Through '96 their numbers were 25/11/5/3.5 on 46% for Hakeem to 22/14/3/1.5 on 57% for Shaq.

And basketball, ESPECIALLY for centers is not a one on one game. While the regular season games I've seen Shaq/Hake:applause: em guarded each other more than say D-Rob/Hakeem did, the 90s centers went a lot of games without guarding each other much in the first 2-3 quarters to avoid foul trouble. Also completely different help defenders, different teammates to create shots etc etc etc.

This isn't something Shaq has said one time to be nice (that Hakeem was his toughest challenge, or he couldn't outplay him etc etc), this is something he's said for basically his entire career, so I'm pretty sure he means/believes this.
:applause: We also know jaublar knows more then Shaq in this situation. Shaq has disrespected every great Center except Hakeem. His Ego wouldn't let him say these things.

[LBJDWADE63]

If we take away 08 series, combined 99-01-02-03-04 series;

Duncan; 25.8ppg/12.9rpg/4.1apg/2.4bpg/0.9spg/4.0tpg/0.483fg%/0.727ft%/29.4eff
Shaq; 23.9ppg/13.5rpg/2.5apg/2.8bpg/0.6spg/3.0tpg/0.536fg%/0.532ft%/27.5eff


Olum odinn resmen duncanla iligili yazarak sadece 700 mesaja ulasmissin seni tebrik ediyorum. Nasil bir duncan sevgisidir lan bu.:bowdown:

[juju151111]

Even if I were to agree with your points here, (and they are valid), Shaq STILL pretty much outplayed Hakeem in those "prime Hakeem" years. AND, Shaq was nowhere near his peak in '95, either.

What amazes me, though, is that Hakeem is basically being credited with outplaying Shaq, for their CAREERS, by so many...for that '95 Final series (and in which Shaq had a case as being at least Hakeem's equal.) And once again, exclude that '95 series, and in the rest of their 24 H2H games Shaq was clearly the more dominant player.

Same with the Robinson-Hakeem battles. Hakeem easily outplayed Robinson in ONE playoff series, covering six games. BUT, how about their other 42 H2H games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=olajuha01

Robinson matched Hakeem in virtually EVERY single category. In fact, it is almost a mirror image, except that Hakeem slightly outscored Robinson, 21.9 ppg to 19.6 ppg, while Robinson had a solid .488 to .441 edge in FG%. Oh, and BTW, Robinson's TEAMs went 30-12 against Hakeem's.
Yea, but I gurentee you Drob has nightmares of Hakeem. Drob got embarrass when it mattered. This was him in his prime against Hakeem last year in his prime. If he was so dominate, why he let Hakeem school him like a punk? Hakeem in the playoffs is not the same.

[Fatal9]

Same with the Robinson-Hakeem battles. Hakeem easily outplayed Robinson in ONE playoff series, covering six games. BUT, how about their other 42 H2H games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=olajuha01

Robinson matched Hakeem in virtually EVERY single category. In fact, it is almost a mirror image, except that Hakeem slightly outscored Robinson, 21.9 ppg to 19.6 ppg, while Robinson had a solid .488 to .441 edge in FG%. Oh, and BTW, Robinson's TEAMs went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

1. In many games Hakeem or D-Rob didn't defend each other for majority of the game to avoid foul trouble. Both would play help defense on the other (which is why you expect stats of both to go down, as you have to not only beat your man but then an all-time defender helping on you as well). A guy like Carr for example might guard Hakeem for 3 quarters and then D-Rob takes over. Why can't you understand a simple point like this? Have you ever actually watched a basketball game?

In the '95 playoffs they let D-Rob finally guard Hakeem one on one for most of the games, so they didn't have to double/help on Hakeem as much (or the Rocket shooters would kill them), and Hakeem "bamboozled" him.

2. Even if you want to look at stats blindly, over '93-'96, when BOTH Hakeem and D-Rob were in their primes. This is how the stats come out (20 games):

Hakeem - 27/12/4/4 on 47.3%
D-Rob - 22/13/4/3 on 46.1%

3. All it takes is watching/understanding their games to know who (obviously) the better player was. Should try that some time instead of posting a bunch of numbers with no context. Also this doesn't even begin to look at both their playoff careers, one guy is one of the best performers while the other was a disappointment.

[Pointguard]

:oldlol: So many things wrong this statement.

:rockon:
Please, pick a starting point or points. Ir was only one sentence long but please, lets' get it on.

[AlphaWolf24]

Anyone with an ounce of Basketball instinct knows ....(from watching) the 1995 Finals showed technique / skill vs Strength and size.....Dream merked Shaq attack everywhere on the court..

it was fun to watch...

[ShaqAttack3234]

:rockon:
Please, pick a starting point or points. Ir was only one sentence long but please, lets' get it on.

Ok, so you think Duncan would've won more if he had Shaq's teams, right?

If so, lets say rookie Duncan is drafted onto the '92-'93 Magic and follows Shaq's career path through 14 seasons(4 years with Orlando, 8 with LA, 2 with Miami). How many rings do you see him winning?

I give him a 50/50 chance to win in '98, I'll give '99 probable, '02 possible, but unlikely they get by the Kings with 10th year Duncan('07 version) in 10th year Shaq's place. '03 is possible with 11th year Duncan, but also unlikely. Not much of a chance after that.

So probably 1-2 titles if his career followed the same path as Shaq's, with a chance(albeit a slim chance) of duplicating Shaq's 4.

Anything you disagree with?

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe and Duncan work so much better then Kobe and Shaq...

6 Titles together book it.

[NugzHeat3]

Sabonis would have owned Shaq. We saw how bad shaq was with barely any injuries at the same age that Sabonis was when he came over. I wish I could see 1990 Sabonis vs 2009 Shaq and see who looks better. Shaq would be singing a different tune right now. Shaq also got spanked by a young Tim Duncan.
**** out of here with Sabonis would have owned Shaq. Sabonis is lucky as hell Portland had great help defenders and a great team defense to "limit" Shaq below his standards.

What happened to Sabonis when Portland tried playing Shaq one on one in game 1 of the 1997 playoffs? 46 points on an insanely good shooting percent.


[SHAQUILLE O'Neal] doesn't profess to be angry, or hyped, or at all awed by the moment, but there is an edge to him. The Blazers sagged and swarmed and generally made his life miserable Friday night to force this showdown, holding O'Neal to only 17 points.

O'Neal and [Pippen], the two main men, had a pretty intense board meeting Friday. The Lakers centre was given a flagrant foul for banging Pippen to the floor, catching him with the body and to the head with his huge right forearm; part of a growing sense of ill will between the two clubs.

About the only thing to get his blood above room temperature, it seems, is the notion that Portland's Arvydas Sabonis is causing him problems. "He doesn't guard me: Sabonis, Pippen and Rasheed Wallace guard me," he said. He's getting a little tired of it. Maybe that will translate into bad news for Portland tonight. But don't see Game 7 as a quest for personal validation. "I've never worried about the public's perception," O'Neal said. "I have my own perception of myself. I will be somewhat satisfied as a player. But that's it."

^From the 2000 playoffs. What Sabonis had was a good combination of lower and upper body strength to hold Shaq a bit till double team help came from the perimeter or the weakside. But Shaq would kill this guy with his speed, quickness and first step in single coverage.


"Shaq's unstoppable," Rider said. "If we didn't double-team Shaq, he would get 50 points against Sabonis. You double- and triple-team Shaq every time he touches the ball.


``Shaquille can go for 50 if I'm not given help,'' admitted Sabonis, and, indeed , O'Neal easily would have gone for 50 had not his coach, Del Harris.....

^1997 and 1998 playoffs.

But tell me more about Arvydas Sabonis please.

[L8kersfan222]

:mad:


troll

[NugzHeat3]

Let's be honest here, somebody with the ego the size of Shaq's, isn't going to be 'kind' to just any random guy he's played against. The fact that Shaq didn't bother mentioning Duncan, Mutombo, or any other center he played with, is a mark of how much he respected Hakeem. jlauber, I respect your NBA knowledge and vociferous defence of old school players, but I would believe the guy who actually played in the NBA Finals against Hakeem, and got humbled so much he actually respects him, rather than the numbers.



Also, Shaq specifically said he couldn't 'defeat' Hakeem not because of any physical trait, like having a higher vertical or more strength or quicker, but mentality. And I seriously doubt that would change 'given a few more years'.

And I don't think it's 100% fair to use the Houston-Orlando series against Shaq, because he was most guarded by Charles Jones anyway, not Hakeem during that series.
No, Shaq was guarded most of the time by Hakeem. Charles Jones guarded him for the 57 minutes he played in that series which is about 25% of the series or around that.

There's a lot of myths regarding that series. The biggest ones being Hakeem owned Shaq or that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the clutch.

There were two games that came to crunch time, games 1 and 3 and Shaq was easily the better player in both 4th quarters. In game 1, he had 12 points and 5 rebounds in the 4th and played good defense on Hakeem late in the game.

In game 3, he had 11 points in the 4th and held Hakeem to 6 points on 3/8 shooting in the 4th. Watch the last 7 minutes of the game and tell me you're not impressed by Shaq's defense.

Hakeem did outplay Shaq but its because of the little things. Shaq's transition defense in that series was terrible because he was so intent on getting position on Hakeem for offensive boards but Hakeem did a good job boxing him out. He also didn't get back on time.

Of course, Shaq averaged 5.25 turnovers as well partly due to Hakeem drawing fouls, couple of steals and a few passes that were intercepted.

Hakeem didn't shoot that well but part of the reason is due to the Rockets game plan.

" maybe try to get Hakeem outside a little bit more to take Shaq away from the basket so if guys cut, there will be no shot-blocking and that leaves the boards open for a couple of offensive rebounds," Houston's Mario Elie said.
^The Rockets wanted Hakeem to draw Shaq out of the paint so it left for offensive rebounding opportunities. I would love to see how many of Hakeem's missed shots resulted in easy putbacks or buckets for his team. Based on memory, I'd say around 10.

Hakeem also took a couple of bailout shots and was fouled on 1 or 2 that wasn't called and that's also a slight difference between shooting in the high 40s or 50.

A few of Shaq's missed shots also resulted in putbacks because he was also drawing a lot of defensive attention which Horace Grant benefitted from. Although not to the same extent as Hakeem because Hakeem could pull Shaq away from the basket to a greater extent than Shaq could.

I would say Shaq and Hakeem were virtually even in games 1 and 3 and Hakeem was better in games 2 and 4.

Everything I've read regarding game 2 tells me Hakeem dominated Shaq in the first half in single coverage and had 22 points while helping the Rockets build a huge lead that could not be overcome. Hakeem was better thta game despite stats telling you otherwise. Shaq had 23 points in the second but most of them weren't as valuable as Hakeem's though Shaq deserves credit for not giving up.

That series was decided by the shooters though. Hakeem and Shaq did their thing and didn't have trouble scoring in single coverage.

[NugzHeat3]

Like usual, amazed by your inability to look at stats in context. Half the games are past Hakeem's prime, while all the games are when Shaq was young and either in his prime or close to it. Through '96 their numbers were 25/11/5/3.5 on 46% for Hakeem to 22/14/3/1.5 on 57% for Shaq.

And basketball, ESPECIALLY for centers is not a one on one game. While the regular season games I've seen Shaq/Hakeem guarded each other more than say D-Rob/Hakeem did, the 90s centers went a lot of games without guarding each other much in the first 2-3 quarters to avoid foul trouble. Also completely different help defenders, different teammates to create shots etc etc etc.

This isn't something Shaq has said one time to be nice (that Hakeem was his toughest challenge, or he couldn't outplay him etc etc), this is something he's said for basically his entire career, so I'm pretty sure he means/believes this.
I've read the recaps for a few of Shaq/Hakeem battles and most of them didn't focus on the match up between the two basically telling us that it was a wash between the two.

You're right though. They didn't guard each other a lot although I think Hakeem guarded Shaq more than Shaq guarded him.


The Magic would parlay the switch - involving [HORACE GRANT] on [Hakeem Olajuwon] and O'Neal on unheralded Mark Bryant - into a 92-90 victory in the O-rena that extended Orlando's home winning streak to 15 games.
^Christmas day 1995.


In addition, Grant got the defensive call on Olajuwon and limited him to 1-for-7 shooting in the quarter as the Magic built a 25-8 lead. Olajuuwon's only basket was a falling-down prayer in the lane."Thanks for noticing that," Grant said. "I thought I was working as hard as I could."The Rockets were working without an ailing Robert Horry, back in Houston suffering from intestinal distress. But he couldn't have looked much sicker than his teammates, who shot 3-for-20 in the opening quarter and dug themselves a hole from which they could not escape.
^From Nov 1994.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CAIqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gtMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2034,4619585&dq=tree+rollins+hakeem&hl=en

^January 1994. Rollins guarding Hakeem is shown as the turning point.

I would like to see the game they played in January 1996. Shaq had a GW putback and a GW block.

[ShaqAttack3234]

troll

:oldlol: what?


**** out of here with Sabonis would have owned Shaq. Sabonis is lucky as hell Portland had great help defenders and a great team defense to "limit" Shaq below his standards.

What happened to Sabonis when Portland tried playing Shaq one on one in game 1 of the 1997 playoffs? 46 points on an insanely good shooting percent.


^From the 2000 playoffs. What Sabonis had was a good combination of lower and upper body strength to hold Shaq a bit till double team help came from the perimeter or the weakside. But Shaq would kill this guy with his speed, quickness and first step in single coverage.





^1997 and 1998 playoffs.

But tell me more about Arvydas Sabonis please.

Good post, here are some examples I've used to show how much Portland's entire team focused on him right from the start of that series.

First touch of the series- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=3m28s

Despite getting good position, the help comes as soon as he puts the ball on the floor- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=4m30s

Doubled almost as soon as he catches the ball- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=5m44s

Pippen is completely playing off Harper- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=8m23s

Again, as soon as he catches the ball, Pippen runs over to double- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyt48XFslGA&feature=related#t=9m09s

That's just the 1st quarter of the first game, and it continued.

Entire team is focused on Shaq, whether it's the initial double, or the repost and the move into the lane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=1m16s

Even in transition, they get back and triple him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=1m43s

As was the case the majority of the series, Pippen was concerned with his man(Shaw) and was there to double Shaq before he put the ball on the floor- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ljRdUBGAk&feature=related#t=1m33s

That was typical, teams often wouldn't worry about AC Green or Ron Harper's offense and with Portland, Rasheed Wallace was obviously matched up with AC Green and Scottie Pippen was put on Harper for that reason, so you pretty much had 2 elite defensive forwards focusing on Shaq often before he could put the ball on the floor.

So I don't understand the logic that Sabonis had some success against Shaq in 2000 or 2001 so that means a younger Sabonis would own him, when Sabonis was younger and better in '97 and '98 and Shaq wasn't as good as the '00 or '01 version yet, and he put up huge numbers against him back then.

Which proves that the help defenders and defensive schemes are more important.

If you just look at head to head stats on basketball-reference, then you'll see that often when a center is out of his prime, he "holds" a center in his prime to lower numbers than when he was in his own prime. That's because usually when 2 centers faced each other in their prime and they were both expected to score a lot, their teams didn't want them risking foul trouble trying to shut down the other center as Fatal stated so they'd use different match ups or double a lot.

And for further proof of why looking at "head to head" stats in a box score proves nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3F2380F9FF5EA2DD

Posted that game a while ago, and you can see that Jr Reid and Antoine Carr guarded Hakeem most of the game, and while Hakeem guarded Robinson more than Robinson guarded him, Otis Thorpe also guarded Robinson quite a bit.


No, Shaq was guarded most of the time by Hakeem. Charles Jones guarded him for the 57 minutes he played in that series which is about 25% of the series or around that.

There's a lot of myths regarding that series. The biggest ones being Hakeem owned Shaq or that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the clutch.

There were two games that came to crunch time, games 1 and 3 and Shaq was easily the better player in both 4th quarters. In game 1, he had 12 points and 5 rebounds in the 4th and played good defense on Hakeem late in the game.

In game 3, he had 11 points in the 4th and held Hakeem to 6 points on 3/8 shooting in the 4th. Watch the last 7 minutes of the game and tell me you're not impressed by Shaq's defense.

Hakeem did outplay Shaq but its because of the little things. Shaq's transition defense in that series was terrible because he was so intent on getting position on Hakeem for offensive boards but Hakeem did a good job boxing him out. He also didn't get back on time.

Of course, Shaq averaged 5.25 turnovers as well partly due to Hakeem drawing fouls, couple of steals and a few passes that were intercepted.

Hakeem didn't shoot that well but part of the reason is due to the Rockets game plan.

^The Rockets wanted Hakeem to draw Shaq out of the paint so it left for offensive rebounding opportunities. I would love to see how many of Hakeem's missed shots resulted in easy putbacks or buckets for his team. Based on memory, I'd say around 10.

Hakeem also took a couple of bailout shots and was fouled on 1 or 2 that wasn't called and that's also a slight difference between shooting in the high 40s or 50.

A few of Shaq's missed shots also resulted in putbacks because he was also drawing a lot of defensive attention which Horace Grant benefitted from. Although not to the same extent as Hakeem because Hakeem could pull Shaq away from the basket to a greater extent than Shaq could.

I would say Shaq and Hakeem were virtually even in games 1 and 3 and Hakeem was better in games 2 and 4.

Everything I've read regarding game 2 tells me Hakeem dominated Shaq in the first half in single coverage and had 22 points while helping the Rockets build a huge lead that could not be overcome. Hakeem was better thta game despite stats telling you otherwise. Shaq had 23 points in the second but most of them weren't as valuable as Hakeem's though Shaq deserves credit for not giving up.

That series was decided by the shooters though. Hakeem and Shaq did their thing and didn't have trouble scoring in single coverage.

Another excellent post, and yes, the recaps you've read about game 2 are accurate. Shaq got in foul trouble in the first half of game 2 trying to guard Hakeem with more single coverage and Hakeem dominated the first half when the game was ultimately decided while Orlando couldn't really make a serious threat in the second half when Shaq got most of his numbers making them look at least even in the box score when in reality, Hakeem clearly outplayed Shaq.

As far as who I give the edge to individually.

Game 1- Shaq
Game 2- Hakeem
Game 3- Basically even
Game 4- Hakeem

Hakeem's advantage in games 2 and 4 was decisive and ultimately, he swept Shaq(though game 1 was all but in the bag and the game going to OT had nothing to do with either center), so Hakeem definitely got the better of the match up for the series, it was not even, but Shaq wasn't schooled either. I think most on this board acknowledge both facts by now.

[Inactive]

and that is why points > rebounds, fg and everything elseDo you realize how dumb that is?

Rebounds/steal get you possessions. Turnovers, and missed shots cost you possessions. If you don't have possessions, you can't score. If you don't use possessions efficiently (high TS%, low TOV%), you have to rebound/steal the ball more, in order to get the opportunity to outscore your opponent.

[millwad]

Guys, great posts about the '95 finals. It's a misconception that some fans think Hakeem killed Shaq during the finals. Even though we all in this thread, beside Jlauber (shocker) agree that Shaq got outplayed he still had a great series.

Shaq should get more credit for his '95 season, not only did he come in 2nd place in the MVP-voting, he was also the the scoringchamp while shooting the 2nd highest FG% of that season and the 3rd best rebounder that season

And some others are taking the word "outplayed" as a too big of a deal, being outplayed doesn't mean that you get crushed or dominated big time, it only means that your opponent played better than you. And someone who gets outplayed like Shaq in '95 can still play really good..

[millwad]

And Jlauber, the only reason why I replied to your stupid comment was that I find it funny that you of all people claim that the series basically was a draw when even Shaq-fans claim that Shaq got outplayed.

I know you're butthurt over Hakeem but breath, seriously. And I find it funny that you still don't know what "decisively" means.

And it's funny that you wrote about Hakeem getting crushed by Hakeem in '99 when Hakeem was 36 but at the same time you whined when I mentioned a playoffs-series when Wilt was 35, even younger than the Hakeem you brought up.

And it's also funny that you of all people who always spam about Wilt's stats never ever put up the stats of that series on this site, why is that? And the "everyone" you always write about is one article you even misread (on purpose)..

This is why I have 0 respect for you, you play with stats when it fits you and when it doesn't you "forget" to bring up the stats and all you do is put up often irrelevant quotes and articles. You change opinion so often just to make the current statement you're trying to make valid. You're garbage.

[MiseryCityTexas]

hell yeah. duncan destroyed shaq in 2004 also.

[NugzHeat3]

:oldlol: what?



Good post, here are some examples I've used to show how much Portland's entire team focused on him right from the start of that series.

First touch of the series- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=3m28s

Despite getting good position, the help comes as soon as he puts the ball on the floor- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=4m30s

Doubled almost as soon as he catches the ball- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=5m44s

Pippen is completely playing off Harper- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=8m23s

Again, as soon as he catches the ball, Pippen runs over to double- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyt48XFslGA&feature=related#t=9m09s

That's just the 1st quarter of the first game, and it continued.

Entire team is focused on Shaq, whether it's the initial double, or the repost and the move into the lane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=1m16s

Even in transition, they get back and triple him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt1QE2Yk&feature=related#t=1m43s

As was the case the majority of the series, Pippen was concerned with his man(Shaw) and was there to double Shaq before he put the ball on the floor- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ljRdUBGAk&feature=related#t=1m33s

That was typical, teams often wouldn't worry about AC Green or Ron Harper's offense and with Portland, Rasheed Wallace was obviously matched up with AC Green and Scottie Pippen was put on Harper for that reason, so you pretty much had 2 elite defensive forwards focusing on Shaq often before he could put the ball on the floor.

So I don't understand the logic that Sabonis had some success against Shaq in 2000 or 2001 so that means a younger Sabonis would own him, when Sabonis was younger and better in '97 and '98 and Shaq wasn't as good as the '00 or '01 version yet, and he put up huge numbers against him back then.

Which proves that the help defenders and defensive schemes are more important.

If you just look at head to head stats on basketball-reference, then you'll see that often when a center is out of his prime, he "holds" a center in his prime to lower numbers than when he was in his own prime. That's because usually when 2 centers faced each other in their prime and they were both expected to score a lot, their teams didn't want them risking foul trouble trying to shut down the other center as Fatal stated so they'd use different match ups or double a lot.

And for further proof of why looking at "head to head" stats in a box score proves nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3F2380F9FF5EA2DD

Posted that game a while ago, and you can see that Jr Reid and Antoine Carr guarded Hakeem most of the game, and while Hakeem guarded Robinson more than Robinson guarded him, Otis Thorpe also guarded Robinson quite a bit.



Another excellent post, and yes, the recaps you've read about game 2 are accurate. Shaq got in foul trouble in the first half of game 2 trying to guard Hakeem with more single coverage and Hakeem dominated the first half when the game was ultimately decided while Orlando couldn't really make a serious threat in the second half when Shaq got most of his numbers making them look at least even in the box score when in reality, Hakeem clearly outplayed Shaq.

As far as who I give the edge to individually.

Game 1- Shaq
Game 2- Hakeem
Game 3- Basically even
Game 4- Hakeem

Hakeem's advantage in games 2 and 4 was decisive and ultimately, he swept Shaq(though game 1 was all but in the bag and the game going to OT had nothing to do with either center), so Hakeem definitely got the better of the match up for the series, it was not even, but Shaq wasn't schooled either. I think most on this board acknowledge both facts by now.
Great stuff man with all the links and references man. Portland really focused on Shaq; team was probably tailor built to deal with him.

It's annoying that people pretend Sabonis was guarding Shaq in single coverage and could hold him below his standards. Shaq was rarely guarded in single coverage and the teams that did so would later find out the hard way.

I didn't know that channel was yours. I've watched quite a few videos on there, some rare classics like the Knicks-Heat 2000 series.

[BMOGEFan]

why are you guys doing those statistical measurements. Stats rarely show how much a player dominated in a game. IE. lebron in the finals.

I bet the only people who are using these stats as a measurement didn't even have pubs when hakeem retired.

[Pointguard]

Ok, so you think Duncan would've won more if he had Shaq's teams, right?

If so, lets say rookie Duncan is drafted onto the '92-'93 Magic and follows Shaq's career path through 14 seasons(4 years with Orlando, 8 with LA, 2 with Miami). How many rings do you see him winning?

I give him a 50/50 chance to win in '98, I'll give '99 probable, '02 possible, but unlikely they get by the Kings with 10th year Duncan('07 version) in 10th year Shaq's place. '03 is possible with 11th year Duncan, but also unlikely. Not much of a chance after that.


So probably 1-2 titles if his career followed the same path as Shaq's, with a chance(albeit a slim chance) of duplicating Shaq's 4.

Anything you disagree with?

'95, '00 - 2004? He's a much better mix with the LA teams and a superior team player in the triangle. And he definitely wins in '04 at 38 years old if need be. Duncan's game falls off a bit in his 14th year the equivalent to '06 with Shaq. So throw that one in there as well. I have a very possible 7 there (10 if you include the other non-Jordan year and maybe the last three peat in Chicago would be in jeopardy along with '05 on either the LA team Duncan would have not gotten traded from or the Miami team that did very well) but I'd say six as a safe number. Duncan is the one guy you look at and say how the heck did he pull that off with that talent. Duncan definitely won with less talent than the 10 teams I mentioned. And that's excluding the Jordan years.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Exactly why I put Hakeem so high in my all time list, its not only about accomplishments people, we are rating players based by their skill too you know...and Hakeem was one of if not the best center to ever play the game.

[Bosnian Sajo]

why are you guys doing those statistical measurements. Stats rarely show how much a player dominated in a game. IE. lebron in the finals.

I bet the only people who are using these stats as a measurement didn't even have pubs when hakeem retired.

Honestly thats all it is, next generation will look at bruce bowen and say "how could this scrub be one of the best defenders of the 00's? He never even averaged more than 4reb, 1 stl, 1blk per game!"

[ShaqAttack3234]

'95, '00 - 2004? He's a much better mix with the LA teams and a superior team player in the triangle. And he definitely wins in '04 at 38 years old if need be. Duncan's game falls off a bit in his 14th year the equivalent to '06 with Shaq. So throw that one in there as well. I have a very possible 7 there (10 if you include the other non-Jordan year and maybe the last three peat in Chicago would be in jeopardy along with '05 on either the LA team Duncan would have not gotten traded from or the Miami team that did very well) but I'd say six as a safe number. Duncan is the one guy you look at and say how the heck did he pull that off with that talent. Duncan definitely won with less talent than the 10 teams I mentioned. And that's excluding the Jordan years.

You're kidding, right?

Ok, so 3rd year Duncan is leading Orlando over Hakeem's Rockets with Hakeem playing all time great basketball? Not to mention that Duncan wasn't healthy enough to perform in the playoffs in his 3rd year.

8th year Duncan(2005) is not leading the 2000 Lakers over Portland either and probably not Indiana. They don't approach 67 wins with 8th year Duncan in Shaq's place either.

The team had to playing the first 15 games without Kobe in 2000, and they went 11-3 in the 14 that Shaq played while losing the one that he was suspended.

The Lakers were already the best defensive team in the league in 2000 with Shaq focusing more on that end, so I don't see them improving much at that end, however, it's clear that they'd fall off quite a bit offensively with Duncan in Shaq's place.

Duncan himself missed 16 games in his 8th year, while Shaq missed just 3. Duncan was also already getting his minutes limited to 33 per game, while Shaq was playing 40 per game and 43.5 per game in the playoffs. I brought up missed games when it worked in Duncan's favor so it's only fair to use it when it works against him.

You saw the clips of how much Portland focused on Shaq, and we know that Shaq had to average 38/17 to beat Indiana in a close 6 game series with Kobe essentially missing 2 of those games and only playing well in one of the 4 that he did play. Shaq ended up winning the scoring title, finishing 1 vote shy of a unanimous MVP and finishing 2nd in DPOY voting. That's pretty much impossible to replace.

It's clear that 2005 Duncan wouldn't have been able to carry the 2000 Lakers like Shaq did.

2001 is possible, but fairly unlikely, imo. He probably doesn't feud with Kobe, but then again Kobe was also having problems with Phil, remember that was the year when Kobe was telling Phil that the triangle was too boring and limited his game. Then there was the problems at the guard position with Isaiah Rider being a cancer who caused problems right away being late for practices and not producing much when he did play before ultimately being left off the playoff roster. Ron Harper was done after 47 games and Fisher didn't return until the final 20. And Kobe also missed 14 games in an ultra competitive West and I'm not betting on 2006 Duncan to carry that team to an 11-3 record without Kobe like Shaq did.

Duncan's 9th year was also the year that his numbers were way down due to plantar fasciitis, and despite playing 6 more games than Shaq, was playing significantly fewer minutes per game and not producing at near the same level as prime Shaq was.

It's possible if the Lakers reinvented themselves as a dominant defensive team, but that's the only way because Duncan at his peak wasn't able to carry the same offensive load that 2001 Shaq was, much less 2006 Duncan.

But in the playoffs, the Shaq/Kobe problems were also gone and the result was Shaq playing at his 2000 level, Kobe playing some of the best ball of his career and the team playing with chemistry.

2002 is possible, Duncan didn't miss 15 games in his 10th year like Shaq did, but the fact that the 2002 Lakers were only 7-8 without Shaq should tell you something. Their 3rd option(Fisher) shot 36% for the playoffs, and Duncan's minutes were still much more limited compared to Shaq's at the time(36 vs 34 in the regular season and 41 vs 37 in the playoffs).

I doubt they get past Sacramento, they barely did with Shaq putting up 30/14 vs an enormous amount of defensive attention.

2003 is possible since it removes the team that knocked them out(the Spurs), and Shaq was lazier at that point, and Duncan isn't sitting out the first 12 games like Shaq did(especially since Shaq didn't have to himself). Kobe also improved and played at an unbelievable level midseason and carried the team a lot. But Shaq's 28/11 on elite efficiency(2nd in FG% and TS%) isn't easy to replace, and the rest of the team was falling apart by that point with Fox's injury, Devean George's injury and Horry missing left and right in the playoffs. Duncan was also declining in his 11th season.

:oldlol: at them winning in 2004 with 12th year Duncan. Granted, the Shaq/Kobe feud was part of the problem, but how about Malone missing half the season, playing injured in the playoffs and then injuring himself again and being unable to contribute anything in the finals? Or Payton averaging 4 ppg on 32% shooting in the finals? Duncan's decline was also more noticeable in his 12th season(2009). He wore down as the season progressed and was a borderline top 10 player in the league by that point.

Now you think 13 year Duncan(2010) is winning in either LA(the year without Phil when the Lakers won 34 games) or Miami(when Shaq nearly won MVP). You're forgetting about Wade's injury that prevented them from beating Detroit. No chance 10th year Duncan who was a top 15 player or so is winning in either situation.

And as far as the 2006 title? No chance, Duncan lost in the first round this year and that's the version that would be replacing Shaq. That 2006 Miami team only went 10-11 without Shaq even when Wade played. They'd have a pretty good team with Zo backing up Duncan, but Shaq was still playing at a much higher level than Duncan did this year. There was his 22/11 series on 65% shooting with 2.3 bpg to help beat the 64 win Pistons.

6-7 titles, possibly 10? No, as I said more likey 1-2, with a slimmer chance in 2 or 3 other seasons.

You're not even considering that Duncan peaked earlier than Shaq, and entered the league with better teams and worse competition his first 2 seasons, and that Shaq's contending teams in the 90's faced better competition such as Hakeem's Rockets in '95 who had beaten two 60+ win teams and another 59 win team prior to the finals with hakeem playing GOAT level basketball that run and then the 72 win Bulls the following season.

[swi7ch]

Shaq shouldn't feel bad about Hakeem dominating him. Hakeem destroyed David Robinson, too.

[millwad]

Shaq shouldn't feel bad about Hakeem dominating him. Hakeem destroyed David Robinson, too.

Of course he shouldn't feel bad about the fact that he got outplayed by Hakeem, he still had an amazing year in '95 and he proved to be a tough challenge for Hakeem during the finals.

[Pointguard]

You're kidding, right?

Ok, so 3rd year Duncan is leading Orlando over Hakeem's Rockets with Hakeem playing all time great basketball? Not to mention that Duncan wasn't healthy enough to perform in the playoffs in his 3rd year.
LOL, you aren't serious are you? My argument would be that he wouldn't be injured because he wouldn't be carrying the load. But I hear you. Bringing up injuries is the only way you can go with your argument.

Duncan on that 95 Magic team is much more impressive five than Houston's. Orlando just lacked confidence and leadership with Shaq. Duncan never had a team where over two years the starting five averaged over 13 ppg.


8th year Duncan(2005) is not leading the 2000 Lakers over Portland either and probably not Indiana. They don't approach 67 wins with 8th year Duncan in Shaq's place either.

Since you think he aged so much in 07 Duncan was still killing and I'd rather have Shaq surrounding crew in '00 of Rice and Kobe with (Fisher, Horry, Fox, Shaw and the last legs on AC Green, Sally, Harper,) than Parker and Gin with (the last legs on Bowen Finley and Horry) any day of the week.


The team had to playing the first 15 games without Kobe in 2000, and they went 11-3 in the 14 that Shaq played while losing the one that he was suspended.

The Lakers were already the best defensive team in the league in 2000 with Shaq focusing more on that end, so I don't see them improving much at that end, however, it's clear that they'd fall off quite a bit offensively with Duncan in Shaq's place.

Duncan was a better leader, smarter player, more complimentrary and players responded better to him.


You saw the clips of how much Portland focused on Shaq, and we know that Shaq had to average 38/17 to beat Indiana in a close 6 game series with Kobe essentially missing 2 of those games and only playing well in one of the 4 that he did play. Shaq ended up winning the scoring title, finishing 1 vote shy of a unanimous MVP and finishing 2nd in DPOY voting. That's pretty much impossible to replace.
Kobe would have played better with Duncan - unquestionably. Duncan would have had support that he didn't have a couple years before and after.




2001 is possible, but fairly unlikely, imo. He probably doesn't feud with Kobe, but then again Kobe was also having problems with Phil, remember that was the year when Kobe was telling Phil that the triangle was too boring and limited his game. Then there was the problems at the guard position with Isaiah Rider being a cancer who caused problems right away being late for practices and not producing much when he did play before ultimately being left off the playoff roster. Ron Harper was done after 47 games and Fisher didn't return until the final 20. And Kobe also missed 14 games in an ultra competitive West and I'm not betting on 2006 Duncan to carry that team to an 11-3 record without Kobe like Shaq did. I was more impressed with what Duncan did in 99 and 03 than what Shaq did inbetween. Sure Shaq posted some incredible numbers. If Duncan had a Kobe like player from '00 to - '02. No way does Shaq get a three peat. Shaq play was great those three years but Duncan was just a winner. Shaq was really foul. I was doin work with Eric B and Rakim around that time and I seen Shaq, several times with his boy Chris Childs at several parties and I never seen Shaq with friend much at all. I know his teammates know that. For the sake of team chemistry??? However Shaq was the most dominant player I seen those three years. But give Duncan that team with those role players and he's definitely beats Shaq one of those years if not two. Duncan had some hard to calculate thing going on.


He did much more with much less his entire career. While one could make an argument that Shaq had about eight years years of playing with a top three player while Duncan never played with a top twenty and accomplished the same amount of rings as a contemporary. I can't get into the injuries and smaller details because its kind of crazy. I see your point but putting a top three player next to Duncan might just make him a notch better and that's the only big point to be made here - injuries and such are too much to get into. They should be next to each other on people's GOAT list. Shaq rarely played without a top 5 player and Duncan rarely played with a top 15 and they played as contemporaries.

[ShaqAttack3234]

LOL, you aren't serious are you? My argument would be that he wouldn't be injured because he wouldn't be carrying the load. But I hear you. Bringing up injuries is the only way you can go with your argument.

Duncan on that 95 Magic team is much more impressive five than Houston's. Orlando just lacked confidence and leadership with Shaq. Duncan never had a team where over two years the starting five averaged over 13 ppg.

I used injuries when they hurt Shaq and helped Duncan's argument, funny how you didn't object then.

Injuries are a part of the game. And Shaq in '95 didn't have to carry less of the load than Duncan. He averaged a league leading 29.3 ppg, 11.4 rpg(3rd in the NBA), 2.7 apg and 2.4 bpg(6th). He averaged 20 field goal attempts and 11 free throws per game. Sound like a light load to carry?

Duncan in 2000 averaged 23.2 ppg(9th), 12.4 rpg(3rd), 3.2 apg and 2.2 bpg(7th). He averaged 17 field goal attempts and 8 free throw attempts.

Hakeem in '95 was better than either '95 Shaq or '00 Duncan, and he also had Clyde Drexler who was the best shooting guard outside of Jordan who played 17 games that year, Horry was arguably playing the best ball of his career, Smith and Cassell were a good point guard duo and Elie was a solid role player.

When you beat teams that won 60, 59, 62 and 57 games including many of the game's top players, you're a legit team.


Since you think he aged so much in 07 Duncan was still killing and I'd rather have Shaq surrounding crew in '00 of Rice and Kobe with (Fisher, Horry, Fox, Shaw and the last legs on AC Green, Sally, Harper,) than Parker and Gin with (the last legs on Bowen Finley and Horry) any day of the week.

'07 Duncan doesn't end up with Shaq's '00 cast, that'd be '05 Duncan and Duncan's '07 cast was unquestionably better than Shaq's '00 cast. Picture Shaq being able to play just 34 mpg in the 2000 regular season and 37 in the 2000 playoffs. It wasn't going to happen because he didn't have the support necessary to rest that much.

The 2000 Lakers were more of a 2 man team. This is not revisionist history at all either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7P3DOCTJw

Harper and Green often weren't even guarded by opposing teams because they weren't offensive threats, and their 3rd option Glen Rice disappeared for most of the playoffs, put up just 12/4/2 on 41% that run, and was benched late in some games for being a defensive liability and standing around without the ball.

Kobe in 2000 was already a borderline top 10 player, but not prime Kobe and not enough to make up for Duncan having 2 all-star caliber teammates in Parker and Ginobili instead of just 1 like Shaq in 2000, arguably the best perimeter defender in the league(Bowen) and superior 3 point shooting.

In fact, the 2007 Spurs were the 3rd best 3 point shooting team while the 2000 Lakers were the 5th worst. The Lakers lack of 3 point shooting and lack of scoring options outside Shaq and Bryant was what allowed Portland to focus so much on Shaq in the WCF.

And how exactly is 2007 Duncan going to beat Indiana if by some miracle they get by Portland?

In case you're forgetting, This is the production the Lakers got out of Kobe that series.

Game 1- 14/3/5, 6/13 FG, 1/2 FT
Game 2- 2/1/4, 1/3 FG (played just 9 minutes
Game 3- Didn't play
Game 4- 28/4/5, 14/27 FG
Game 5- 8/5/3, 4/20 FG
Game 6- 26/10/4, 8/27 FG, 2/6 3P, 8/9 FT

That's why Shaq had to average 38/17/3 on 61% shooting including 11.5 ppg in the 4th quarters that series. And the 1 good game that Kobe did have when he took over in the 4th quarter wouldn't have been possible without a 36/21 game by Shaq or a 14 point 4th quarter.


Duncan was a better leader, smarter player, more complimentrary and players responded better to him.

True, but O'Neal was far more dominant individually, drew more defensive attention and was a tougher, more unique match up to game plan for. They both had advantages and were both legitimate franchise players, but different. They peaked at different stages of their careers and had different casts built around them because they excelled in different areas.


Kobe would have played better with Duncan - unquestionably. Duncan would have had support that he didn't have a couple years before and after.

Shaq wasn't holding Kobe back as evidenced by his phenomenal 2001 playoff run or his incredible 2003 season.


I was more impressed with what Duncan did in 99 and 03 than what Shaq did inbetween. Sure Shaq posted some incredible numbers. If Duncan had a Kobe like player from '00 to - '02. No way does Shaq get a three peat. Shaq play was great those three years but Duncan was just a winner. Shaq was really foul. I was doin work with Eric B and Rakim around that time and I seen Shaq, several times with his boy Chris Childs at several parties and I never seen Shaq with friend much at all. I know his teammates know that. For the sake of team chemistry??? However Shaq was the most dominant player I seen those three years. But give Duncan that team with those role players and he's definitely beats Shaq one of those years if not two. Duncan had some hard to calculate thing going on.

I don't think Shaq would've won with Duncan's casts from '98-'04 assuming he entered the league at the same time because I don't think he'd work well with Robinson, but Shaq peaked in his 8th season and that would've been when Ginobili and Parker were coming into their own, he definitely could have won multiple rings from 2005-2011 with Duncan's casts had he been drafted in 1997.


He did much more with much less his entire career. While one could make an argument that Shaq had about eight years years of playing with a top three player while Duncan never played with a top twenty and accomplished the same amount of rings as a contemporary. I can't get into the injuries and smaller details because its kind of crazy. I see your point but putting a top three player next to Duncan might just make him a notch better and that's the only big point to be made here - injuries and such are too much to get into. They should be next to each other on people's GOAT list. Shaq rarely played without a top 5 player and Duncan rarely played with a top 15 and they played as contemporaries.

Your best teammate alone doesn't define how good a cast is, I don't know why that's so complicated.

And talking about Shaq's first 14 years, he did not play with a top 3 player for 8 seasons.

Definitely not in '93 or '94. Penny was probably top 10 in '95 and '96, but not top 5. None of Shaq's teammates were top 10 players in '97, '98 or '99. Kobe was borderline top 10 in '00. Though I'll give Kobe top 3 in 2001, top 3-4 in 2002, top 4-5 in 2003 and top 4-5 in 2004. Wade was borderline top 5 in 2005 and top 2-3 in 2006.

So that's 8, maybe 9 seasons with a top 10 player through 14 seasons and 5, maybe 6 with a top 5 player and 2, maybe 3 with a top 3 player.

He does beat Duncan in terms of his best teammate, but again, 1 player does not make up a cast, not at all. That doesn't even cover 3rd best players, overall depth, how the team's are constructed ect.

And Duncan has had top 20 teammates. Robinson was borderline top 5 in 1998, borderline top 10 in 1999, top 15 in 2000 and top 20 in 2001. Ginobili was borderline top 15 in 2005, 2008 and top 20 the last 2 seasons. Parker was borderline top 15 in 2009 and arguably top 20 several seasons.