How good was John Stockton? Was he overrated, underrated or about right?

[knickswin]

Discuss

[knickswin]

if he beats Walt Frazier that is garbage . . .

[Skep]

if he beats Walt Frazier that is garbage . . .


He does, get over it.

[andgar923]

He can't dunk.

Nuff said.

[D.J.]

Considering Karl Malone got most of the credit for any Jazz success, not at all.

[donald_trump]

hugely.

i like how all the old school revisionists claim he'd get 15-18apg in this era. dude would barely get 8 if he wasn't in sloan system. its not just that. he wasnt as good a playmaker as guys like kidd, nash, cp3.

[knickswin]

he gets plenty of credit. The fact that some people would put him as the #2 point guard of all time behind only Magic says enough . . .

If Chris Paul were to retire TODAY I would put him down as a better PG than Stockton. Longevity be damned, Paul is just a better player. Point. Blank. Period.

Stockton was never a FORCE. You have to be a FORCE to be considered as highly as Stockton is. Who cares about playing for a million years or racking up assists in an assist-inflating system (not saying he wasn't a great passer and playmaker, but the 14apg inflate what he was doing).

[Collie]

Underrated by people who think peaks are the only thing that matter, and who value flashy plays over the importance of someone who does what a point guard should do.

[donald_trump]

i think you put it best. stockton was never a player you feared. he's only ever scored over 30 points something like 8 times in his career.
he could never really take over a game.

deron, rose, cp3, nash are all easily better players than him.

he was great at getting the ball into the post, best ever. though he wasn't some awesome player people make him out to be.

[magnax1]

after watching Deron all his career, and watching Stockton almost all his career, I can say with certainty there isn't a case to be made for Deron over Stockton. He's more athletic. Has better handles in terms of using them to score, but does nothing else better, or even relatively close in most facets.

[LebronairJAMES]

Discuss
http://forums.projectcovo.com/images/smilies/wtf.png

[Sarcastic]

Stockton was barely a top 10 player for most of his playing years, but apparently in retirement he is an immortal legend.

[donald_trump]

after watching Deron all his career, and watching Stockton almost all his career, I can say with certainty there isn't a case to be made for Deron over Stockton. He's more athletic. Has better handles in terms of using them to score, but does nothing else better, or even relatively close in most facets.

better playmaker, a good man defender, better rebounder.

i dont know how anyone could take stockton over deron. he'd average 12 odd assists playing with malone, be a much bigger threat at scoring and is a solid defender.

any team would be better with him on it.

[knickswin]

yeah, honestly, there is a lot of room for improvement with Derrick Rose with certain details of the game like how he handles doubles off screens and how he passes in the pick and roll, and shooting sub 30% from three taking a bunch a game in the playoffs is not going to cut it (even though I know part of the reason he was shot jacking was because his team desperately needed the spacing) but overall I think he'll EASILY end up the better player than Stockton.

He'll probably never have the passing ability that Stockton had, but Rose controls the game in his own way. He's good about putting pressure on the defense and controlling the pace of the game and those are point guard skills.

[LebronairJAMES]

Stockton was barely a top 10 player for most of his playing years, but apparently in retirement he is an immortal legend.
http://forums.projectcovo.com/images/smilies/gladbron.gif

[Sarcastic]

after watching Deron all his career, and watching Stockton almost all his career, I can say with certainty there isn't a case to be made for Deron over Stockton. He's more athletic. Has better handles in terms of using them to score, but does nothing else better, or even relatively close in most facets.

If Deron played with Malone for his whole career, he would be considered the best PG ever.

[Jacks3]

How is he overrated when the only things you hear when people talk about him is that he couldn't take over games, his assist numbers are inflated, he didn't have a great peak, he was lucky to play with Malone, etc etc. He's actually underrated. It seems to me that people focus too much on his negatives, but don't seem as willing to give him props for all the great qualities he had. :confusedshrug:

[Sarcastic]

How is he overrated when the only things you hear when people talk about him is that he couldn't take over games, his assist numbers are inflated, he didn't have a great peak, he was lucky to play with Malone, etc etc. He's actually underrated. It seems to me that people focus too much on his negatives, but don't seem as willing to give him props for all the great qualities he had. :confusedshrug:

Check out his MVP award shares. He finished in the top 10 three times in his career. He wasn't that well regarded in his prime. He was a compiler, and put up great total stats.

That doesn't make him better than players like Frazier nor Isiah who were lead teams to titles.

[magnax1]

better playmaker
Sorry to say that isn't even remotely true. Deron can't do so many thinks that Stockton was capable of. He can't thread it through tight spaces like Stockton (and he constantly tries to leading to a lot of turnovers) He doesn't have anywhere near the same ability to run an offense efficiently. He isn't anywhere near the pick and roll player, and I could go on and on. The single area I'd deem them equals in terms of play making is on the break, where Deron shines as much as anyone in the league. Deron isn't even the best passer today though so don't try and compare him to someone who probably is the best passer ever.




a good man defender
He's an alright man defender. Good is pushing it. His defensive value comes from his defensive rotations, but he struggles against the quickest of point guards. He's average in terms of man defense, good in terms of team defense.



better rebounder.
And for point guards that has little meaning. He's probably averaged something like 1 more rebound a game for his career.


i dont know how anyone could take stockton over deron. he'd average 12 odd assists playing with malone, be a much bigger threat at scoring and is a solid defender.
Well none of that is even close to true.

[magnax1]

If Deron played with Malone for his whole career, he would be considered the best PG ever.
Malone was extremely reliant on Stockton for scoring, especially early in his career. Even though he improved later on, his stats went down considerably the year Stockton had surgery on his knee. Malone was much more reliant on Stockton then the other way around.

[D.J.]

Malone was able to rely a little less on Stockton once he developed a jump shot. Up until around '93, Malone had no jump shot. He depended on Stockton. Malone developing a nice 15 footer extended his career. Stockton could have gone on another team and done well because of his high ball IQ, good defense, his ability to find the open man, and good outside shooter. Malone would have held his own simply because of his strength and post skills, but wouldn't have done nearly as well.

[Sarcastic]

Malone was extremely reliant on Stockton for scoring, especially early in his career. Even though he improved later on, his stats went down considerably the year Stockton had surgery on his knee. Malone was much more reliant on Stockton then the other way around.

Bullshit and 2X MVP says otherwise.

[magnax1]

Bullshit and 2X MVP says otherwise.
Anybody who watched them during the early 90's knows it's true. You only need to look one post above yours who's saying the exact same thing I am. Malone was not some self sufficient scorer who you could drop it down to like Kareem.

[D.J.]

Bullshit and 2X MVP says otherwise.


And oddly enough, his MVP's didn't come until after he developed that jump shot.

[Sarcastic]

Anybody who watched them during the early 90's knows it's true. You only need to look one post above yours who's saying the exact same thing I am. Malone was not some self sufficient scorer who you could drop it down to like Kareem.

Malone >>> Stockton.

Who else was John gonna pass to all those years to rack up those assists? Mark Eaton?

[Nero Tulip]

Well after this thread it's pretty clear he's massively underrated.

[magnax1]

Malone >>> Stockton.

Who else was John gonna pass to all those years to rack up those assists? Mark Eaton?
What exactly does that even mean? How is that some sort of point that proves Stockton was over rated?

[knickswin]

How is he overrated when the only things you hear when people talk about him is that he couldn't take over games, his assist numbers are inflated, he didn't have a great peak, he was lucky to play with Malone, etc etc. He's actually underrated. It seems to me that people focus too much on his negatives, but don't seem as willing to give him props for all the great qualities he had. :confusedshrug:
I don't think he was bad or anything like that in fact in some areas he was great, but some people would say he's the second best pg of all time and i'm not down with that. He just wasnt that good. I dont think Malone was the second greatest power forward of all time either. They were too good to be called "system players," but they were definitely aided by the system.

[D.J.]

Malone >>> Stockton.

Who else was John gonna pass to all those years to rack up those assists? Mark Eaton?


Thurl Bailey was putting up close to 20 a night. Jeff Malone was putting up close to 20 a night. Darrell Griffith was hitting double digits, as was Blue Edwards. Jeff Hornacek arrived and was putting up around 15 a night. Malone wasn't his only passing option.

[Friday]

He is certainly closer to overrated than underrated.

[Miserio]

Gary Payton said John Stockton is the player that gave him the most troubles. So John Stockton >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone except: Isiah, Magic

[bizil]

I think in terms of a GOAT ranking for PG's Stock deserves to be ranked anywhere from 4-7. That's because he has the all time assists and steals titles. He had great longevity and is as good of a passer that there has ever been. He also had great D as well.

But that's GOAT type shit. I want my PG to be like Magic, Isiah, Big O, Tiny, Frazier, Payton, Nash, Paul, or Deron. And that is more of a two way threat. These guys can run a team just as good as Stock or damn close. But they all SMOKE Stock in terms of taking over a game scoring. I know haters are gonna say "A PG is supposed to run the team". Thats true but what if the PG is ALSO the team's best scorer as well? Or what if the team needs more scoring punch to go along with the number one option? What if the team is flat and needs a jolt? What if its playoff time and u gotta let it all hang out to advance? That's why I prefer these PG's over Stock. A guy like Rose isn't as balanced as the other guys. But their is no denying that the man as true takeover scoring ability. But he's not in Stock's class in terms of running a team. But D Rose is still young and teams would FEAR D Rose 1000 times more than they would fear Stock. So I would take D Rose over Stock as well. D Rose doesn't suck at running a team, its just that he has SG or combo guard type mentality.

Payton said Stock gave him the toughest time in terms of Stock's grit and smarts. Stock had a massive heart and would battle GP when defending GP. Stock could also drop a dime in a heartbeat so u had to be on your toes. And Stock was very crafty and an underrated scoring threat. But don't get it twisted, GP would have a way tougher time guarding KJ, Hardaway, Penny, or Mark Price before he would Stock in terms of scoring.

[ThaRegul8r]

Gary Payton said John Stockton is the player that gave him the most troubles. So John Stockton >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone except: Isiah, Magic

Why not just go all the way and say that Stockton >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone at the point? After all, Payton faced Magic and Isiah, so it doesn't make sense to exclude them if Payton faced all three of them and said Stockton gave him the most trouble.

But why stop there? Payton faced Jordan. If Payton said Stockton gave him the most trouble, then that means he places Stockton above Jordan (who did have his worst Finals performance when he faced Payton's Sonics), which means Stockton = GOAT.

[Miserio]

Why not just go all the way and say that Stockton >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone at the point? After all, Payton faced Magic and Isiah, so it doesn't make sense to exclude them if Payton faced all three of them and said Stockton gave him the most trouble.

But why stop there? Payton faced Jordan. If Payton said Stockton gave him the most trouble, then that means he places Stockton above Jordan (who did have his worst Finals performance when he faced Payton's Sonics), which means Stockton = GOAT.
Agree

[bizil]

He is certainly closer to overrated than underrated.

I'm believe so too when people are putting Stock on the level of Magic or Isiah. Stock was a great, great player. But he was great at running the show and on D. But that's where the buck stops. A guy like Zeke put the double the pressure on defense. Malone would have been a beast in any system. He was awesome running the floor and developed a great midrange shot. Malone's work ethic ensured his greatness in the L. If anything, Malone did more for Stock than Stock did for Malone. But I feel Stock was a great floor general, and in terms of pure dimes is one of the five greatest passers on all time.

[Yung D-Will]

better playmaker, a good man defender, better rebounder.

i dont know how anyone could take stockton over deron. he'd average 12 odd assists playing with malone, be a much bigger threat at scoring and is a solid defender.

any team would be better with him on it.

I'd take Stockton over D-Will in a heartbeat.

What Magnax said is pretty much true about 90% of Jazz fans who saw both of them

[the_wise_one]

Not at all.

[Yung D-Will]

I've always ranked Stockton over Walt,Kidd,Nash,Payton

But always felt I could never rank him over Isiah

[All Net]

Funny how this thread is about people overrating him yet it has people underrating him

[Sarcastic]

Gary Payton said John Stockton is the player that gave him the most troubles. So John Stockton >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone except: Isiah, Magic

So if Payton said Mitch Richmond gave him more troubles than Jordan, then Richmond >>>>>>>>>>>> Jordan?

[tontoz]

i think you put it best. stockton was never a player you feared.



unless you played against him. Ask Gary Payton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo

[tontoz]

I liked Isiah but he was a bit of a chucker with limited range. He was a career 29% shooter from 3 compared to Stocktons 38%. Stocktons career FG% was 51.5%.

People who don't think Stockton could score didn't watch him play. He was a pass first player by choice, not by necessity.

[KevinNYC]

unless you played against him. Ask Gary Payton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo

That Gary Payton is video is something. A very strong endorsement.

[knickswin]

I liked Isiah but he was a bit of a chucker with limited range. He was a career 29% shooter from 3 compared to Stocktons 38%. Stocktons career FG% was 51.5%.

People who don't think Stockton could score didn't watch him play. He was a pass first player by choice, not by necessity.

No, his shot creation ability was clearly limited. He had a long career and no blockbuster scoring nights, that should tell you something.

[rodman91]

He was a textbook pointguard all the coaches and oldschool basketball fans would adore.And he was great one.

I think that's reason he is quite overrated because he was textbook GOAT pointguard.

Def not one of my favorite players but he deserves great respect. He was tough,dirty and good defender that you would never expect him to be.

[tontoz]

No, his shot creation ability was clearly limited. He had a long career and no blockbuster scoring nights, that should tell you something.


It tells me he was looking to pass first and shoot second, hence the all time assists leader.

[knickswin]

It tells me he was looking to pass first and shoot second, hence the all time assists leader.
You are giving him more than the benefit of the doubt. At some point during his 20 career year this supposed scoring ability should have revealed itself. It is not like guys like Nash and Frazier weren't smart, capable passers, but they could also score very well as well.

[Sarcastic]

It tells me he was looking to pass first and shoot second, hence the all time assists leader.

He couldn't be a prolific scorer even if he wanted. He just wasn't that good at it. He was a great passer though. I won't deny that.

[ThaSwagg3r]

I liked Isiah but he was a bit of a chucker with limited range. He was a career 29% shooter from 3 compared to Stocktons 38%. Stocktons career FG% was 51.5%.

People who don't think Stockton could score didn't watch him play. He was a pass first player by choice, not by necessity.
You act as if he was like Steve Nash offensively and he wasn't. He could not take over a game and put the team on his back in the 4th quarter like both Isiah Thomas and Steve Nash were capable of doing. The biggest criticism on Stockton was the fact that he did not assert himself in those situations. If he did do that there would be no question he would be ranked higher than Isiah and there would be no question he would have a few rings, but he didn't, so he isn't.

[Rose]

He's correctly rated....everywhere. Third best point guard generally, sometimes fourth behind only Magic, Zeke, and Big O.

Just people dont like his game because he was so damned cerebral.

[tontoz]

You act as if he was like Steve Nash offensively and he wasn't. He could not take over a game and put the team on his back in the 4th quarter like both Isiah Thomas and Steve Nash were capable of doing. The biggest criticism on Stockton was the fact that he did not assert himself in those situations. If he did do that there would be no question he would be ranked higher than Isiah and there would be no question he would have a few rings, but he didn't, so he isn't.



Where did i say he was as good offensively as Nash? Nash is arguably the best shooting pg in history.

Thomas wasn't nearly the shooter Nash was. People remember Isiah's big games but don't remember that he just wasn't a consistent shooter.

Stockton was never the number one option offensively on his teams. Nash and Thomas wouldn't be either if they played with Karl Malone.

And how exactly can you say that his lack of assertiveness kept them from winning titles? That is just dumb. Michael Jordan kept him from winning rings twice. Jordan kept a lot of guys from winning rings.

[AlphaWolf24]

Where did i say he was as good offensively as Nash? Nash is arguably the best shooting pg in history.

Thomas wasn't nearly the shooter Nash was. People remember Isiah's big games but don't remember that he just wasn't a consistent shooter.

Stockton was never the number one option offensively on his teams. Nash and Thomas wouldn't be either if they played with Karl Malone.

And how exactly can you say that his lack of assertiveness kept them from winning titles? That is just dumb. Michael Jordan kept him from winning rings twice. Jordan kept a lot of guys from winning rings.


:facepalm So John Stockton played almost 20 years and got Mopped up by the lakers , Rockets and the friggin Warriors...and it was MJ who stopped him??

what about the other 18 years???

[guy]

Stockton was barely a top 10 player for most of his playing years, but apparently in retirement he is an immortal legend.

Its not like people are saying he had an argument for best player in the league or anything like that. You just said he was a top 10 player for most of his career. Well his career was 19 seasons. There's really not that many players that can say they were top 10 in the league for over 10 years.

He gets alot of credit for his amazing longevity and durability, which almost no one can match, while also being just a flat out great player for most of that time.

[Sarcastic]

Where did i say he was as good offensively as Nash? Nash is arguably the best shooting pg in history.

Thomas wasn't nearly the shooter Nash was. People remember Isiah's big games but don't remember that he just wasn't a consistent shooter.

Stockton was never the number one option offensively on his teams. Nash and Thomas wouldn't be either if they played with Karl Malone.

And how exactly can you say that his lack of assertiveness kept them from winning titles? That is just dumb. Michael Jordan kept him from winning rings twice. Jordan kept a lot of guys from winning rings.

While Stockton lost to the Bulls twice, Isiah actually BEAT the Bulls with Jordan, the Lakers with Magic, and the Celtics with Bird. He was the leader of those teams too.

[tontoz]

:facepalm So John Stockton played almost 20 years and got Mopped up by the lakers , Rockets and the friggin Warriors...and it was MJ who stopped him??

what about the other 18 years???


Yes MJ stopped him in the Finals twice. It isn't like teams can get to the Finals every year.

After Stockton and Malone who was their best player? They had some decent role players but they never had that great of a roster after those two.

[IGOTGAME]

Yes MJ stopped him in the Finals twice. It isn't like teams can get to the Finals every year.

After Stockton and Malone who was their best player? They had some decent role players but they never had that great of a roster after those two.

oh, I guess the "greatest pure point guard ever" and the "greatest power forward ever at the time" isn't enough with a great coach and solid role players surrounding them.

[tontoz]

While Stockton lost to the Bulls twice, Isiah actually BEAT the Bulls with Jordan, the Lakers with Magic, and the Celtics with Bird. He was the leader of those teams too.


Do you really want to compare the rosters of Isiah's Pistons to Stockton's Jazz? :oldlol:

Stockton was All-NBA 1st or 2nd team 8 times to Isiah's 5.

[Reggie43]

I always wondered why playing the right way and not forcing shots is often undervalued in these boards.

[tontoz]

oh, I guess the "greatest pure point guard ever" and the "greatest power forward ever at the time" isn't enough with a great coach and solid role players surrounding them.


The Jazz didn't have role players of the calibur of Dennis Rodman or Horace Grant.

[joshwake]

one of the most underrated players of all time.

[IGOTGAME]

The Jazz didn't have role players of the calibur of Dennis Rodman or Horace Grant.

guess those are the only teams that beat them.

[AlphaWolf24]

Yes MJ stopped him in the Finals twice. It isn't like teams can get to the Finals every year.

After Stockton and Malone who was their best player? They had some decent role players but they never had that great of a roster after those two.


Hint: The Bull's are a Eastern Conference team......Utah isn't....

think about that , then think who Utah played in the playoff's (WCFinals , WCSFinals ,WCQFinals ) for 18+ years....

now you really think it was just MJ who stopped a great Jazz team from winning for nearly 20 years???




next

[Lebron23]

guess those are the only teams that beat them.


Hint: The Bull's are a Eastern Conference team......Utah isn't....

think about that , then think who Utah played in the playoff's (WCFinals , WCSFinals ,WCQFinals ) for 18+ years....

now you really think it was just MJ who stopped a great Jazz team from winning for nearly 20 years???

A younger Malone and Stockton duo were eliminated plenty of times in the earlier rounds of the playoffs despite having a home court advantage in the post season.

[joshwake]

better playmaker, a good man defender, better rebounder.

i dont know how anyone could take stockton over deron. he'd average 12 odd assists playing with malone, be a much bigger threat at scoring and is a solid defender.

any team would be better with him on it.
Deron is NOT a better defender, nor is he a better playmaker. Calling him a "better" scorer is a little misleading, because if stockton wanted to he could score 25+ a game with ease and at a better percentage. Deron is only a slightly better rebounder. Remember how people were making a huge deal about Rondo averaging close to 15 assists/game early in the season? How many did he end up with? Would he be the MVP if he averaged 14.5 assists 17.2 points and 2.7 steals?

[tontoz]

Thinking back that Pistons team was seriously stacked. Jordan called Dumars the best defender he ever faced and Dumars could light it up too. After those two they had.

Vinny Johnson
Mark Aquire
Bill Lambier
John Salley
Dennis Rodman
Edwards

I am probably forgetting someone but that is a loaded team.

Realistically the Pistons would probably have 3 rings if Isiah hadn't inbounded the ball to Bird when a critical playoff game was all but over. That team was nasty no doubt.

[AlphaWolf24]

A younger Malone and Stockton duo were eliminated plenty of times in the earlier rounds of the playoffs despite having a home court advantage in the post season.


exactly

[joshwake]

A younger Malone and Stockton duo were eliminated plenty of times in the earlier rounds of the playoffs despite having a home court advantage in the post season.
Can you name a sigle all-star on any of those teams or even impact players? I can think of 3 in almost a 20 year span.

[Lebron23]

While Stockton lost to the Bulls twice, Isiah actually BEAT the Bulls with Jordan, the Lakers with Magic, and the Celtics with Bird. He was the leader of those teams too.


That's why I ranked Isiah over Stockton because Thomas knew how to take his game into another level. Zeke was just a much better playoffs performer than Stockton.

[Sarcastic]

Can you name a sigle all-star on any of those teams or even impact players? I can think of 3 in almost a 20 year span.

How many teams have more than 2 all stars? Having 2 of them at the same time was a huge advantage for the Jazz.

[tontoz]

That's why I ranked Isiah over Stockton because Thomas knew how to take his game into another level. Zeke was just a much better playoffs performer than Stockton.


So who on Stockton's team (other than Malone) was comparable to the Microwave, Lambier, Aquire, Salley and Rodman?

[AlphaWolf24]

So who on Stockton's team (other than Malone) was comparable to the Microwave, Lambier, Aquire, Salley and Rodman?


Adrian Dantley , Jeff malone , Jeff Hornakec , Thurl bailey , Scott Morris , Mark eaton ,etc...etc...

[Lebron23]

Adrian Dantley , Jeff malone , Jeff Hornakec , Thurl bailey , Scott Morris , Mark eaton ,etc...etc...


Those 3 guys were good scorers while Mark Eaton was good defensive Center during his prime.

[joshwake]

How many teams have more than 2 all stars? Having 2 of them at the same time was a huge advantage for the Jazz.
im talking over a 20 year span there champ. And none of them were all-stars while with the jazz, all 3 were just good impact players.

It comes down to this: Stockton is disgustingly underrated by chumps who have forgotten what a PG is meant to do on a team, and they just want to see high point totals and think that is the end-all for determining who is a better player. So basically 99% of this pathetic board.

[joshwake]

How many teams have more than 2 all stars? Having 2 of them at the same time was a huge advantage for the Jazz.
Tons of teams have 2+ even 3+ all stars at one time. And deciding what team is better based on a stupid ass popularity contest like the all-star game is dumb anyway.

[Sarcastic]

Mark Eaton won DPOY twice in the same era as Olajuwon, Ewing, and Robinson.

[Sarcastic]

Tons of teams have 2+ even 3+ all stars at one time. And deciding what team is better based on a stupid ass popularity contest like the all-star game is dumb anyway.

Tons? Name them.

[tontoz]

Adrian Dantley , Jeff malone , Jeff Hornakec , Thurl bailey , Scott Morris , Mark eaton ,etc...etc...


You just proved my point. Scott Morris? Thurl Bailey?

Stockton played with Dantley in his first two seasons. Big deal

Hornacek and Malone were decent role players but they weren't on the team at the same time.

Edwards, Lambier, Vinnie Johnson, Salley, Rodman and Aquire were on Isiahs teams AT THE SAME TIME.

[AlphaWolf24]

im talking over a 20 year span there champ. And none of them were all-stars while with the jazz, all 3 were just good impact players.

It comes down to this: Stockton is disgustingly underrated by chumps who have forgotten what a PG is meant to do on a team, and they just want to see high point totals and think that is the end-all for determining who is a better player. So basically 99% of this pathetic board.


actually overrated by self titled "hard core fans" with an elititist attitude...

plain and simple Johnny didn't have "it".....he had plenty of great team capable of winning it all...but couldn't for whetever reason....he just didn't have "it"...

he's the Tmac , Nique's and Barkley's of his role.

[Sarcastic]

You just proved my point. Scott Morris? Thurl Bailey?

Stockton played with Dantley in his first two seasons. Big deal

Hornacek and Malone were decent role players but they weren't on the team at the same time.

Edwards, Lambier, Vinnie Johnson, Salley, Rodman and Aquire were on Isiahs teams AT THE SAME TIME.

You are acting as if Edwards, Laimbeer, VJ, Salley, and Aquire were all stars. On any other team that wasn't winning titles, those guys are just regular role players like what Stockton had.

[AlphaWolf24]

You just proved my point. Scott Morris? Thurl Bailey?

Stockton played with Dantley in his first two seasons. Big deal

Hornacek and Malone were decent role players but they weren't on the team at the same time.

Edwards, Lambier, Vinnie Johnson, Salley, Rodman and Aquire were on Isiahs teams AT THE SAME TIME.

Malone , Stockton ,Dantley , Eaton and Bailey were all on the same team at the same time.....

so that team can't stack up to 5'9" Isiah , 6'1" Joey D , Lamebeer , Salley , Rodman and Vinnie Johnson??


come on son..

[Big164]

he gets plenty of credit. The fact that some people would put him as the #2 point guard of all time behind only Magic says enough . . .

If Chris Paul were to retire TODAY I would put him down as a better PG than Stockton. Longevity be damned, Paul is just a better player. Point. Blank. Period.

Stockton was never a FORCE. You have to be a FORCE to be considered as highly as Stockton is. Who cares about playing for a million years or racking up assists in an assist-inflating system (not saying he wasn't a great passer and playmaker, but the 14apg inflate what he was doing).


Lets see Paul take over a game against Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman.

Lets see Paul eliminate the Lakers from the playoffs. Stocktons teams booted Shaq/Kobe twice and Chris cant even overcome Gasol/Kobe.

Chris wont touch Stocktons steals or assists record so keep dreaming.

[joshwake]

Mark Eaton won DPOY twice in the same era as Olajuwon, Ewing, and Robinson.
Eaton was a non-factor 88 and on. That was just when Stockton and Malone were starting to get into ther peaks.

I'm not saying the Jazz during the stock/malone era shouldn't have won a title. They should have had 2 or more in my opinion. But blaming Stockton and even Malone (to a lesser extent) is wrong. I watched most all of those games, and I can count Stockton's bad decisions on one hand.

[tontoz]

Malone , Stockton ,Dantley , Eaton and Bailey were all on the same team at the same time.....

so that team can't stack up to 5'9" Isiah , 6'1" Joey D , Lamebeer , Salley , Rodman and Vinnie Johnson??


come on son..

Stockton was drafted in 84. Malone was drafted in 85. Dantley left after Malone's rookie year.

Get real

[joshwake]

Tons? Name them.
do some research yourself, it is not that difficult. Claiming that a team with 2+ all stars should win a title is just retarded. The only example you need is last season. go from there if you still need proof.

[joshwake]

Malone , Stockton ,Dantley , Eaton and Bailey were all on the same team at the same time.....

so that team can't stack up to 5'9" Isiah , 6'1" Joey D , Lamebeer , Salley , Rodman and Vinnie Johnson??


come on son..
Did you actually watch this team play? Looking up a roster is not going to tell you much. It's called empirical proof son. look it up in a dictionary.

[tontoz]

Just last season the Heat had 3 All-Stars and the Celtics had 4.

[Sarcastic]

do some research yourself, it is not that difficult. Claiming that a team with 2+ all stars should win a title is just retarded. The only example you need is last season. go from there if you still need proof.

I have but I am not the one making the claim that tons of teams have multiple all stars. You are. The Miami Heat does not constitute "tons", and they will win rings.

[Sarcastic]

Just last season the Heat had 3 All-Stars and the Celtics had 4.

The Heat will win rings, and the Celtics have won already.

[tontoz]

The Heat will win rings, and the Celtics have won already.


But they didn't even reach the Finals last year with 4 All-Stars.

[Butters]

Underrated by most.

[tontoz]

For those who think Stockton failed because he didn't win a ring please point out the year or years when he should have won a ring.

[AlphaWolf24]

Stockton was drafted in 84. Malone was drafted in 85. Dantley left after Malone's rookie year.

Get real


and your point is??....your the one spewing all the talk that they never had a team with good role players...

yes they did...

not sure what your proved except that I was Right.




next

[AlphaWolf24]

Did you actually watch this team play? Looking up a roster is not going to tell you much. It's called empirical proof son. look it up in a dictionary.


Yes i watched them play...did you??...

Utah was a great regular season team that for some reason or another always faded and played worse in the Post season...


it's called watching the game and recognizing game....



you should try it some time



next

[tontoz]

and your point is??....your the one spewing all the talk that they never had a team with good role players...

yes they did...

not sure what your proved except that I was Right.




next


No it just proves you're a dumbass. Malone was a 15 ppg rookie in the 85/86 season and Stockton was in his second year and they are supposed to win a title? They only won 42 games that year.

:facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

Lets see Paul take over a game against Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman.

Lets see Paul eliminate the Lakers from the playoffs. Stocktons teams booted Shaq/Kobe twice and Chris cant even overcome Gasol/Kobe.

Chris wont touch Stocktons steals or assists record so keep dreaming.


:lol a Laker team with a 17 year old Kobe as the first option in crunchtime...and Nick van exel as the 2nd or 3rd option most of the game....

and you are here talking about not having any role players???



holla at me when John Stockton wins with freakin Isiah Rider as a 3rd option...

he had plenty of great Role Players.

[AlphaWolf24]

No it just proves you're a dumbass. Malone was a 15 ppg rookie in the 85/86 season and Stockton was in his second year and they are supposed to win a title? :facepalm


and yet you are here claiming 34 year old Vinnie Johnson , 33 year old Bill Lamebeer and 31 year old Aguire can hold up to a 22 year old karl malone , 23 year old Stockton and a 28 year old Dantley??

you're reaching bad..


next

[PistonsFan#21]

Stockton is so underrated that people dont even care about him when they see him walking around

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iBhNppSBeE&feature=related

[tontoz]

and yet you are here claiming 34 year old Vinnie Johnson , 33 year old Bill Lamebeer and 31 year old Aguire can hold up to a 22 year old karl malone , 23 year old Stockton and a 28 year old Dantley??

you're reaching bad..


next


That Jazz team finished fourth IN THEIR DIVISION and you think they should have won a title?

:roll:

[97 bulls]

For those who think Stockton failed because he didn't win a ring please point out the year or years when he should have won a ring.
The philosophy on this forum is really rediculous, if a player didn't win a ring as the "man", or avg 25-30 ppg he can't be great.
Or considered one of the greatest

[IGOTGAME]

The philosophy on this forum is really rediculous, if a player didn't win a ring as the "man", or avg 25-30 ppg he can't be great.
Or considered one of the greatest

thats not true. I think Stock is a great player. But in the realm of players I think he gets a lot more praise then someone who was never a top 5 player in the league should get. He was never a driving force capable of being the best player on a championship team. But people talk about him as if he was.

Stockton's peak was way too low for me to hold him up like people do here.

[Sarcastic]

For those who think Stockton failed because he didn't win a ring please point out the year or years when he should have won a ring.

I don't think he failed for not winning a ring. I think he is overrated because I see him put up as this mythological all time great point guard. I am not saying he wasn't great, but he gets ranked higher than guys who did actually win rings, and gets ranked very high in all time lists ahead of people that he was never considered better than when they actually played (Ewing for example).

[Sarcastic]

thats not true. I think Stock is a great player. But in the realm of players I think he gets a lot more praise then someone who was never a top 5 player in the league should get. He was never a driving force capable of being the best player on a championship team. But people talk about him as if he was.

Stockton's peak was way too low for me to hold him up like people do here.

+1

[IGOTGAME]

People have Stockton as a top 25 player of all time. When ISH did the original top 100 list, they all voted Stockton ahead of Kobe. That is overrated here.

[Sarcastic]

People have Stockton as a top 25 player of all time. When ISH did the original top 100 list, they all voted Stockton ahead of Kobe. That is overrated here.

The Kobe thing has to be a joke. Kobe is a legend. Stockton is a sidekick.

They had him rated over players like Dominique and Ewing who were MVP caliber players, and were always considered better than Stockton during the 80s and 90s. But now in retirement for some reason, Stockton passes them because he compiled stats. That to me is overrated.

[tontoz]

I don't think he failed for not winning a ring. I think he is overrated because I see him put up as this mythological all time great point guard. I am not saying he wasn't great, but he gets ranked higher than guys who did actually win rings, and gets ranked very high in all time lists ahead of people that he was never considered better than when they actually played (Ewing for example).



Karl Malone should be ranked behind Robert Horry then, right? After all Horry has way more rings.

Stockton wasn't a center so I am not sure why you are bringing Ewing up. Stockton was 1st or 2nd team All-NBA 8 times so i think he was ranked pretty high when he was playing.

[Sarcastic]

Karl Malone should be ranked behind Robert Horry then, right? After all Horry has way more rings.

Stockton wasn't a center so I am not sure why you are bringing him up. Stockton was 1st or 2nd team All-NBA 8 times so i think he was ranked pretty high when he was playing.

I am talking about comparing guys with similar skill levels, such as Stockton vs Isiah, or Stockton vs Frazier, not "role player with many rings" vs "super star with none".

[tontoz]

I am talking about comparing guys with similar skill levels, such as Stockton vs Isiah, or Stockton vs Frazier, not "role player with many rings" vs "super star with none".


Stockton was by far a better shooter than Isiah. Better playmaker and a much better defender.

Show me one Jazz team that was as stacked as the Piston's title teams.

[Skep]

From reading these pages all I can gather is that Knicks fans dont know anything outside their own franchise besides jordan and kobe and basketballreference.com

[Sarcastic]

Stockton was by far a better shooter than Isiah. Better playmaker and a much better defender.

Show me one Jazz team that was as stacked as the Piston's title teams.

Is that how we rate people now? Based on their skills, and not their performance on the court?

And "stacked" is a term I have never heard when talking about the Bad Boy Pistons. "Tough", "Dirty", "Rugged" are the terms usually associated with them. They didn't beat teams with talent. They physically beat them down.

[Soothing Layup]

Stockton is so underrated that people dont even care about him when they see him walking around

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iBhNppSBeE&feature=related

hahaha that was so badass, Stockton is a good guy who doesn't afraid of anything.

[pauk]

overrated.......... ?? stockton? john "the most underrated player ever" stockton??? HAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tontoz]

Is that how we rate people now? Based on their skills, and not their performance on the court?
.

WTF does that mean? Stockton shot 9% better from 3, was a better playmaker and a better defender on the court. Did you think i was talking about on a football field?:oldlol:


And "stacked" is a term I have never heard when talking about the Bad Boy Pistons. "Tough", "Dirty", "Rugged" are the terms usually associated with them. They didn't beat teams with talent. They physically beat them down.


So what Jazz team had as much talent as Isiah's title teams?

*waits for next dodge*

[Sarcastic]

WTF does that mean? Stockton shot 9% better from 3, was a better playmaker and a better defender on the court. Did you think i was talking about on a football field?:oldlol:




So what Jazz team had as much talent as Isiah's title teams?

*waits for next dodge*

What are you basing better playmaker on? Because he had more assists? Tell me to the top 20 player Isiah ever played with.

Superstars > role players.

[MiseryCityTexas]

i think you put it best. stockton was never a player you feared. he's only ever scored over 30 points something like 8 times in his career.
he could never really take over a game.

deron, rose, cp3, nash are all easily better players than him.

he was great at getting the ball into the post, best ever. though he wasn't some awesome player people make him out to be.

steve nash a much better offensive player than stockton, but stockon a much better defensive player than nash.

[ThaSwagg3r]

What are you basing better playmaker on? Because he had more assists? Tell me to the top 20 player Isiah ever played with.

Superstars > role players.
Isiah's Pistons had more depth than Stockton's Jazz but Stockton got to play with a better player and dished his passes to one of the best finishers of all-time.

If you ask me, switch Isiah with Stockton and the Pistons would have never won a title in '89 and '90 and if you switch Stockton with Isiah the Jazz wouldn't necessarily win a title but they would have a better chance of winning a title in my opinion.

[rodman91]

Williams and Paul.. they are not better prime stockton.At least not yet.They have got better scoring skills and fancier game though.

[Sarcastic]

Isiah's Pistons had more depth than Stockton's Jazz but Stockton got to play with a better player and dished his passes to one of the best finishers of all-time.

If you ask me, switch Isiah with Stockton and the Pistons would have never won a title in '89 and '90 and if you switch Stockton with Isiah the Jazz wouldn't necessarily win a title but they would have a better chance of winning a title in my opinion.

Isiah - Batman
Stockton - Robin

[bagelred]

King of All Assists and Steals. :rockon:

Discuss.

[tontoz]

What are you basing better playmaker on? Because he had more assists? Tell me to the top 20 player Isiah ever played with.

Superstars > role players.


From having watched them play. Anyone who watched them play and actually has a clue would say the same thing. You don't get to be the all time assists leader passing to one guy.

And since you brought it up assists.....

career assist/to ratio

Isiah 2.44
Stockton 3.75

So again what Jazz team had as much talent as Isiah's title teams? :sleeping

[knickswin]

How is he possibly underrated?

No one denies that he was a great passer and tenacious defender, but to put him ahead of the likes of Walt Frazier, Isiah Thomas, and even Steve Nash is just nonsense in my opinion.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Isiah - Batman
Stockton - Robin
In a nutshell that would be correct but I would rather have Stockton be my robin than Isiah be my batman. I never liked the idea of building my team around a PG. Isiah was greater and better than Stockton but I would rather have Stockton on my team. They are different kind of players.

[knickswin]

From reading these pages all I can gather is that Knicks fans dont know anything outside their own franchise besides jordan and kobe and basketballreference.com

There are people in that Walt versus Stockton thread literally saying "I never watched Frazier play, but Stockton it is!" . . .

[Sarcastic]

From having watched them play. Anyone who watched them play and actually has a clue would say the same thing. You don't get to be the all time assists leader passing to one guy.

And since you brought it up assists.....

career assist/to ratio

Isiah 2.44
Stockton 3.75

So again what Jazz team had as much talent as Isiah's title teams? :sleeping

I can use stats to show that Malone was better than Duncan, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

[Sarcastic]

King of All Assists and Steals. :rockon:

Discuss.

Is he better than Pat Ewing?

[Yung D-Will]

He's rated properly by most people. He's around 3-4 behind Isiah,Magic and Oscar.

I find it funny though cause whenever we're in a thread arguing about Powerforwards people will go on about how guys like Kg or Barkley didn't have one of the top 4 pg's to every play the game.

But when were talking about pg's they'll say that Malone carried the team and Stockton was just a number 2.


Either way Jazz players get screwed in every thread:oldlol:

[Clippersfan86]

How is he possibly underrated?

No one denies that he was a great passer and tenacious defender, but to put him ahead of the likes of Walt Frazier, Isiah Thomas, and even Steve Nash is just nonsense in my opinion.

Yes the great Steve Nash is the second greatest PG to ever play the game after Magic...... Anyone who disagrees is a retard. How could the all time assists and steals leader who played better defense and had a nearly equal offensive game... with more longevity and team success compare to Nash???

[knickswin]

Yes the great Steve Nash is the second greatest PG to ever play the game after Magic...... Anyone who disagrees is a retard.

Well Steve is somewhat debatable I guess, but Walt Frazier beats him pretty easily

[tontoz]

I can use stats to show that Malone was better than Duncan, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.


Those two are widely considered the 2 best power forwards ever. I can't really decide for myself who i think is better.

[Sarcastic]

He's rated properly by most people. He's around 3-4 behind Isiah,Magic and Oscar.

I find it funny though cause whenever we're in a thread arguing about Powerforwards people will go on about how guys like Kg or Barkley didn't have one of the top 4 pg's to every play the game.

But when were talking about pg's they'll say that Malone carried the team and Stockton was just a number 2.


Either way Jazz players get screwed in every thread:oldlol:

I don't underrate Karl Malone at all. He was a beast who produced every night. His only drawback was he choked in clutch situations, but a lot of greats suffered that.

[Soothing Layup]

How is he possibly underrated?

No one denies that he was a great passer and tenacious defender, but to put him ahead of the likes of Walt Frazier, Isiah Thomas, and even Steve Nash is just nonsense in my opinion.

Yeah, but that's because you're 12.

[bizil]

Im starting to notice a huge problem on this board. And that's dimissing players that can truly takeover a game scoring. That is a premium asset that has to always be respected. When it comes to Stock vs. Isiah, it's the difference in my book. They are very close in terms of passing and running a team. If u wanna say either is better than the other, it's not by much either way. But the HUGE difference is Isiah's takeover ability. Yes PG's can be great scorers as well. There are PG's that can score damn near as good as the best wing players, even though they might not average 26-30 points a night. It's because they are floor general first who have to play that role. But often times when it gets close, when needed, or hell when they damn well feel like it, they can go on scoring tears. And still run the team like an awesome floor general should. Other than Kidd, Stock, and Cousy, most of the other GOAT PG's had this in common. But Kidd is very unique cause he was a walking triple double and has versatility Stock or Cousy can't touch.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Those two are widely considered the 2 best power forwards ever. I can't really decide for myself who i think is better.
It's Duncan and it really is not even close at the slightest. Duncan being the best PF of all-time is about as clear as MJ being the best SG of all-time.

[ThaRegul8r]

Im starting to notice a huge problem on this board. And that's dimissing players that can truly takeover a game scoring.

Really? A player's value on this board seems to be solely determined by whether or not he can takeover a game by scoring a lot of points.

[bizil]

Really? A player's value on this board seems to be solely determined by whether or not he can takeover a game by scoring a lot of points.

Well I guess I don't see that as much. Players are great at what they do period. Dennis Rodman was a great player. Pip was a great player. Stock was a great player. They are great in different ways. But it seems when comparing Stock to Isiah, I don't really see how people discount Isiah's scoring ability when comparing the two. Cause they are very, very close in terms of playmaking for others. On D, I will give the edge to Stock, but Isiah is very underrated in terms of D. But the huge gap is takeover scoring ability.

A poster earlier said he would rather have Stock as a PG than Isiah because Isiah scored too much. That right there doesn't make sense when talking about Isiah. For one Isiah held the single season assists average record BEFORE Stock broke it. Isiah is one of the top 5 or 6 passers of all time. If u a had a team full of scorers, Isiah would be more than happy to drop dimes all day and score less. It's not like Isiah is Russell Westbrook at PG. Not a knock to Russ, but he's more of a combo guard or shooting guard. He doesn't see the game through the prism of a PG. Guys like Isiah are different. He can score like Westbrook AND run a team like Stock. So if preferred Stock of a Westbrook in terms of running a team then I can see that. But's let's say u are on a team that needs it PG to score because of lack of scoring help. Then guys like Rose or Westbrook I would rather have. But greatness of Isiah, Magic, Frazier, or Nash is that they can fit into ANY situation great at PG.

[tontoz]

Isiah's career TS% is 51.6. That sucks. That is not the guy you want taking a lot of shots. His best ever TS% was 55.4 and he never did better than 53% in any other year.

For comparison purposes here are the TS percentages of some other pgs this past season.

Paul- 57.8
Westbrook- 53.8
Rose- 55
Nash- 60
Billups- 61.7
Stuckey-54.4
Conley- 52

see where i am going here? Overall there were 38 players this past season who bettered Isiahs TS%. Only 1 bettered Stocktons career ts% of 60.8%.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Isiah's career TS% is 51.6. That sucks. That is not the guy you want taking a lot of shots. His best ever TS% was 55.4 and he never did better than 53% in any other year.

For comparison purposes here are the TS percentages of some other pgs this past season.

Paul- 57.8
Westbrook- 53.8
Rose- 55
Nash- 60
Billups- 61.7
Stuckey-54.4
Conley- 52

see where i am going here? Overall there were 38 players this past season who bettered Isiahs TS%. Only 1 bettered Stocktons career ts% of 60.8%.
......and Allen Iverson's career TS% is 51.8. Are you telling me he is not a guy you want taking shots? :confusedshrug:

Shooting a low TS% didn't stop Isiah from winning a championship so I don't really see your point. Do you not know what the main objective of basketball is?

[NumberSix]

underrated.

The guy is the all time leader in 2 of the major statistics. I mean, it's not like there are tons of different stats. It's not like every few guys is in all time leader in something. Assists and steals. That's pretty impressive.

[tontoz]

......and Allen Iverson's career TS% is 51.8. Are you telling me he is not a guy you want taking shots? :confusedshrug:

Shooting a low TS% didn't stop Isiah from winning a championship so I don't really see your point. Do you not know what the main objective of basketball is?


Yes it is to win a ring. Robert Horry > all

Thanks for the great insight.

FYI Iverson had the same TS% as Isiah while averaging 7.5 more ppg. Iverson was known as a chucker so that doesn't speak to highly about Isiah.

Iverson also played on a lot of bad teams that didnt' have a lot of scoring options. That wasn't the case with Isiah. Isiah shared the backcourt with another top 50 all time NBA player. He also had Dantley and Aquire, both of whom had averaged 30 ppg in the NBA.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Yes it is to win a ring. Robert Horry > all

Thanks for the great insight.
Ahh.....the old Robert Horry card, nothing new here. Championship rings are to show the greatness of the best, 2nd best, and sometimes even the 3rd best player on a team. Isiah was the best player on his team and Stockton was the 2nd best player on his. Who is the one that has the championship rings and the finals MVP? And who doesn't?

Last I check Isiah is the one that has two rings and a finals MVP while Stockton has none.

Like I said, you could switch both of their roles up and the Pistons would probably be worse with Stockton instead of Isiah while the Jazz would probably be better with Isiah instead of Stockton.

[tontoz]

Ahh.....the old Robert Horry card, nothing new here. Championship rings are to show the greatness of the best, 2nd best, and sometimes even the 3rd best player on a team. Isiah was the best player on his team and Stockton was the 2nd best player on his. Who is the one that has the championship rings and the finals MVP? And who doesn't?

Last I check Isiah is the one that has two rings and a finals MVP while Stockton has none.

Like I said, you could switch both of their roles up and the Pistons would probably be worse with Stockton instead of Isiah while the Jazz would probably be better with Isiah instead of Stockton.


You've got it backwards. Stockton would have been perfect on the Pistons because they had other guys who could score. They didn't need a PG forcing up bad shots.

Give Stockton a team of Dumars, Rodman, Aquirre, Mahorn, Salley, Lambier, Vinny J and Edwards and he would have had a field day. He never had a team even close to that.

I have said this several times and i will say it again. What year should the Jazz have won the title?

*crickets*

[ThaSwagg3r]

You've got it backwards. Stockton would have been perfect on the Pistons because they had other guys who could score. They didn't need a PG forcing up bad shots.

Give Stockton a team of Dumars, Rodman, Aquirre, Mahorn, Salley, Lambier, Vinny J and Edwards and he would have had a field day. He never had a team even close to that.
Who would close out the games? Because Stockton sure as hell couldn't do it which is the main reason why Isiah is the one that has multiple championship rings and is usually ranked higher than Stockton.

Stockton is no different in the 1st quarter than he is in the 4th quarter. He just plays at one pace. Isiah is different, he plays different in the 1st compared to the 4th. In the 4th Isiah is willing to unleash his willpower and put the team on his back and win the game. Stockton did not have the assertiveness that Isiah possessed which was why Stockton was inferior.



I have said this several times and i will say it again. What year should the Jazz have won the title?

*crickets*
This was my original post.....


Isiah's Pistons had more depth than Stockton's Jazz but Stockton got to play with a better player and dished his passes to one of the best finishers of all-time.

If you ask me, switch Isiah with Stockton and the Pistons would have never won a title in '89 and '90 and if you switch Stockton with Isiah the Jazz wouldn't necessarily win a title but they would have a better chance of winning a title in my opinion.

[Sarcastic]

You've got it backwards. Stockton would have been perfect on the Pistons because they had other guys who could score. They didn't need a PG forcing up bad shots.

Give Stockton a team of Dumars, Rodman, Aquirre, Mahorn, Salley, Lambier, Vinny J and Edwards and he would have had a field day. He never had a team even close to that.

I have said this several times and i will say it again. What year should the Jazz have won the title?

*crickets*

I don't think you know saw the Bad Boy Pistons play if you think they had other guys who could score. That team was straight defense, and constantly looked to Isiah to score when they needed a bucket.

Check their head 2 head numbers. Isiah shits on Stockton.

[tontoz]

The Jazz team in 89/90 only had one guy other than Stockton and Malone that averaged double figures and that was Thurl Bialey.

Thurl was a big man who shot only 48% and got only 5 rebounds per game. :oldlol:

Darrel Griffin, Blue Edwards, Mark Eaton (5 pts 7 rebounds lol), Bob Hanson, Mike Brown.

you think that team would win a title with Isiah? Stockton averaged 17/14 that year shooting 51% from the field, 41% from 3.

Please lay off the crack pipe. :roll:

[tontoz]

I don't think you know saw the Bad Boy Pistons play if you think they had other guys who could score. That team was straight defense, and constantly looked to Isiah to score when they needed a bucket.

Check their head 2 head numbers. Isiah shits on Stockton.


It wasn't a question of the other guys looking to Isiah. It was Isiah looking for himself.

They had Mark Aguirre and Vinnie Johnson coming in off the bench. Aquire had averaged 29 ppg not long before joining the Pistons. Before Aquire they had Dantley. They also had Laimbeer, Dumars and Edwards. They had plenty of guys who could score.

Obviously they had a lot tougher defense than the Jazz did even though Stockton was a better defender than Isiah.

[tontoz]

When the Pistons won the title in 89-90 they had 5 guys averaging double figures and that doesn't even include the Microwaves 9.8 ppg.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1990.html

During that season Isiah averaged only 1.3 more ppg than Stockton while his TS% was 12% worse.

[joshwake]

I can't even read any more posts in this thread it is so pathetic.

[MastahX]

i think you put it best. stockton was never a player you feared. he's only ever scored over 30 points something like 8 times in his career.
he could never really take over a game.

deron, rose, cp3, nash are all easily better players than him.

he was great at getting the ball into the post, best ever. though he wasn't some awesome player people make him out to be.

Stockton was feared because he stole the ball so much. Look it up on youtube - the glove had an interview and said stockton was the player he hated to play against the most.

[MastahX]

Stockton is way under-rated here in the forums. Mainly because most people on here didn't watch basketball in the 80's and 90's and are clueless on how good the sport used to be.

Here is video of Gary Payton talking about his TOUGHEST matchup. More so than any other player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo

[JellyBean]

To me, he was underrated, mainly because he played out West and with the boring Jazz (no offense Jazz fans). In the late 80s up until the mid 90s, other than Zeke and Magic, who did folks really talk about at the Point? John got lost among: Derek Harper, Kenny Smith, Mark Jackson, Kevin Johnson, people like that. John, because of his style of play, team that he played on, the location of the team, and the fact that Jazz never really made much noise when they were in the playoffs...until later, got overshadowed by other points and that dude from Chicago that wore #23.

[RobertdeMeijer]

The (advanced) statistics on Basketball Reference are exactly what I saw following Stockton's career. They're very impressive.

I find Stockton quite underrated. If you keep an eye on him during games, you'll see his nasties and how few mistakes he made.

I'll admit that he underperformed during the playoffs though.