MVP voting has become a joke [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Clippersfan86

09-16-2011, 03:42 PM

They often pick the star whose team exceeds expectations the most in the past 10 years or so, the media favors a good story over the guy who truly deserves the award the most. Somehow exceeding expectations one year makes a player more valuable than guys who regularly lead their teams to contending records by that logic. We've seen this with Iverson, Nash and Rose, though I do think that Nash was just about the best choice in '05 considering the candidates, and he had a good case in '06, but a lot of the emphasis was on the Suns turnaround and then the Suns winning without Stoudemire.

Look at Kidd's 2002 season as another example, Kidd almost wins the award, though ultimately the correct choice was made(Duncan). But Kidd almost won due to the Nets turnaround.

However, the very next season, Duncan wins the award again with a similar season to his '02 regular season in both wins and individual performance. But Kidd plays better than he did in 2002, yet drops from 2nd to 9th in voting and goes from 45 first place votes in 2002 to 0 in 2003.

It just shows you that the media gets caught up in a good story.

Definitely. This is why we saw Shaq get robbed so many times for MVP. Because the Lakers were consistently good... and didn't have some crazy turn around (besides in the beginning). Shaq was the most complete, dominant and important player for like 5 years straight in the NBA and should have at least 3 MVP's. It just bugs me how it's decided. MOST VALUABLE PLAYER not BEST PLAYER ON BEST TEAM is what the award is called.

pauk

09-16-2011, 03:43 PM

it has always been the same criteria.....

look around and research all the MVP winners in NBA history and you will find out two things all of them had incommon:

1. They had one of 1-4 best team records, which means no player in NBA history has won a MVP having lower than 4th best team record in the NBA... no matter if he averaged a 100 point quadruple double.... which means TEAM SUCCESS is priority #1.........

2. They were the best players in their team.. obviously....

going by that you would now understand exactly why ANYBODY won the MVP any year... ANY year....

take Dwight / Lebron / Dirk / Rose for example.....

DWIGHT = He was the best player in his team and had amazing productions, but he had the 8th best team record.... which automatically rules him out as a runaway winner, but still in discussion...

LEBRON = He was the best player in his team and had the best productions in the NBA and had one of the best team records.... BUT, he had Wade & Bosh... so that takes him down...

DIRK = He was the best player in his team, didnt had the best productions, but had one of the best team records..... it was just not enough...

ROSE = He was the best player in his team by very far, had one of the best productions in the NBA... and had the best team record in the NBA....

YOU SEE.... THATS WHY ROSE WAS THE CORRECT WINNER........... EVEN THO HE IS THE WORST PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY TO WIN A MVP......... HE WAS THE CORRECT CHOICE....

Clippersfan86

09-16-2011, 03:48 PM

RRR3

09-16-2011, 04:02 PM

Clippersfan86

09-16-2011, 04:09 PM

I usually think MVP should go the best player, because the best player adds the most value to a team regardless of how good the team is with or without them...but if we go strictly by the player whose team needed him the most, D12 was hands down the MVP IMO. Plus, you could make a great case for him being the best individual player this year as well.

Exactly. Anyone who has his efficiency ratings, puts up 23 ppg AND wins 3 straight DPOY's while being a dominant all around player on a consistent contender... deserves the MVP. Dwight hands down is the most impactful player on the game and for his team. A few of our stat junkies here have posted stats basically proving without Dwight the Magic aren't even a top 15 defense.. with him they are consistently top 5. His impact is MASSIVE.

rodman91

09-16-2011, 04:19 PM

25 ppg and 7.7 apg with 62-20 (1st)

22.9 ppg 14.1 rpg with 52-30 (8th)

Rose deserved very well.Howard should win IBM award or something.But Lebron James has a case for it as well.

Vienceslav

09-16-2011, 04:23 PM

pauk with a quality post :applause:
indeed it is all about the record.

Clippersfan86

09-16-2011, 04:23 PM

25 ppg and 7.7 apg with 62-20 (1st)

22.9 ppg 14.1 rpg with 52-30 (8th)

Rose deserved very well.Howard should win IBM award or something.But Lebron James has a case for it as well.

:facepalm . 23 ppg, 14 rpg and 2.5+ bpg is an INCREDIBLE season dude. Doesn't matter if it was 1st best record in the league vs 8th. It's MOST VALUABLE PLAYER and Dwight was clearly a more valuable asset to his team than Rose. Take Rose off the Bulls and with a healthy squad of Noah, Deng and Boozer they still at least get a middle seed in the playoffs. Take Dwight off the Magic and they clearly miss the playoffs with a big 3 of washed up Gilbert Arenas, Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson? I mean comon dude.

All Net

09-16-2011, 04:29 PM

MVP has never been the best player award

Big164

09-16-2011, 04:42 PM

MVP is a worthless award. Nash has as many as Kobe+Shaq put together.

If you want to know who the true best player is look at the Finals MVP. Not regular season.

rodman91

09-16-2011, 04:43 PM

:facepalm . 23 ppg, 14 rpg and 2.5+ bpg is an INCREDIBLE season dude. Doesn't matter if it was 1st best record in the league vs 8th. It's MOST VALUABLE PLAYER and Dwight was clearly a more valuable asset to his team than Rose. Take Rose off the Bulls and with a healthy squad of Noah, Deng and Boozer they still at least get a middle seed in the playoffs. Take Dwight off the Magic and they clearly miss the playoffs with a big 3 of washed up Gilbert Arenas, Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson? I mean comon dude.

Noah,Deng and Boozer? Noah is all about hustle.Deng has been always inconsistent and Boozer is a guy even Bulls fans doesn't like. Also they had injuries all season.

Take out Rose and with all those injuries, they would be out off playoffs probably.

23 and 14 is great numbers but he should have Wilt like numbers to win MVP probably.MVP is given mostly best player on one of the best teams.

Don't get me wrong, i would prefer Howard on my team instead of Rose but team record is really important in MVP voting.And Bulls wasn't a team suppose to have best record in NBA.

If it was about giving an award to best player, Howard would have better chance than Rose for sure.

magnax1

09-16-2011, 04:45 PM

this isn't new. its always been the same criteria
Not really. It used to be the best player who had a moderately good record. Now it's usually something like a top 10 player on a team that the media thinks shouldn't be as good as it is.

SteveNashMVPcro

09-16-2011, 04:53 PM

MVP is a worthless award. Nash has as many as Kobe+Shaq put together.

If you want to know who the true best player is look at the Finals MVP. Not regular season.
MVP doesn't mean you are the best player in the league.It means you led a team to one of the top records in the league with good stats.IMHO MVP is the most valuable individual award a player can win.Afterall it means you one of the top players in the league (in 82 games not 4-7 like FMVP) and because your great play your team has one of the top.league revords
And lol@ saying FMVP means you are the best player in the league.It means you had the best stats in 4-7 games series

BlackWhiteGreen

09-16-2011, 05:05 PM

Yeah... Rose has as many MVPs as Shaq. Nash has more.

Tells you how much you should read into the award really...

Clippersfan86

09-16-2011, 05:07 PM

Not really. It used to be the best player who had a moderately good record. Now it's usually something like a top 10 player on a team that the media thinks shouldn't be as good as it is.

Exactly. It didn't used to ALWAYS be a top seed in the league or top 3 seed winning the MVP. It's BS. In recent years Nash and Rose are examples of that and they have taken a lot of heat as "weak" MVP's for this exact reason. MVP is most valuable player... not best player on team with biggest turn around or team with best record.

Clippersfan86

09-16-2011, 05:08 PM

Yeah... Rose has as many MVPs as Shaq. Nash has more.

Tells you how much you should read into the award really...

:applause: Exactly. Still pisses me off man. The awards and all star games used to mean something. Now they are all garbage.

ShaqAttack3234

09-16-2011, 05:12 PM

Noah,Deng and Boozer? Noah is all about hustle.Deng has been always inconsistent and Boozer is a guy even Bulls fans doesn't like. Also they had injuries all season.

Take out Rose and with all those injuries, they would be out off playoffs probably.

23 and 14 is great numbers but he should have Wilt like numbers to win MVP probably.MVP is given mostly best player on one of the best teams.

Don't get me wrong, i would prefer Howard on my team instead of Rose but team record is really important in MVP voting.And Bulls wasn't a team suppose to have best record in NBA.

If it was about giving an award to best player, Howard would have better chance than Rose for sure.

Don't know about that, they were the best defensive team in the league so even though they'd struggle to score, they'd be competitive.

Certainly much better than Orlando would be without Dwight, which is why Chicago won more. They were the 3rd best defensive team with him(most likely below average without him) and they were a pretty average offensive team with him, most likely, they'd be among the worst without him.

That's a huge luxury for an average defensive guard to have, playing with the best defensive team in the league.

I definitely think Howard is more valuable to Orlando(due to them relying on him so much at both ends) as well as being a superior player to Rose.

If not Howard, then I'd have been ok with Lebron as MVP or Dirk(Dallas won 55-18 with him, 2-7 without him and had the Butler injury as well)

Smoke117

09-16-2011, 05:14 PM

Welcome to four months ago.

Friday

09-16-2011, 05:17 PM

Which is why you gotta watch the games rather than just look at the accolades.

Clippersfan86

09-16-2011, 05:19 PM

Shepseskaf

09-16-2011, 11:59 PM

Miserio

09-17-2011, 12:31 AM

Remove D-Rose from the Bulls roster and they end up 1-81

pauk

09-17-2011, 12:42 AM

MVP is a worthless award. Nash has as many as Kobe+Shaq put together.

If you want to know who the true best player is look at the Finals MVP. Not regular season.

nah... FMVP is even less worth....

MVP is at least battled by ALL players and ALL teams in about 82 games...

FMVP is battled by only 2 teams and about 10 players or so in about 4-7 games....

MVP is much harder to accomplish........ heck even POTM (player of the month trophy/award) is much harder to accomplish than FMVP.....

The player doesnt give a damn about the FMVP.... its the Championship he wants....

FMVP is basically just... "Well thank you for winning a Championship and we know u dont give a damn, but anyways here is something extra because u played best during these 4-7 games in your team"

Basically........ even JJ Barea could have won the FMVP right now if he produced a bit better than Dirk during those 4-7 games....

Even Pau Gasol was extremly close to take that FMVP from Kobe the last time.

Tony parker has won it over T.Duncan and so on...

4-7 Games is enough for your sidekick to maybe pile up better numbers than you...

iamgine

09-17-2011, 01:12 AM

Isn't it voted by 100+ sportwriters and coaches?

Each of them having their own personal criteria.

Pointguard

09-17-2011, 01:22 AM

Dwight Howard should of been the MVP this year and we all know it. Derrick Rose has turned into a superb player and a superstar but Dwight was the most valuable to his team. Dwight is probably the only superstar in the game where when you pull him out of games the defense and offense literally go to sh** right away.
Actually the team's offense played more confidently without him. When he was getting suspended those games his team played with verve they didn't have with him. In the playoffs when he had that near 50/20 game they lost convincingly. The only game the Magic dominated was when he went 1 for 4 in the field for a 8 point 8 rebound game and 1 block in 29 minutes.

DH made his case of MVP in Jan and Feb. if you forgive the game when Lebron came into his house and told the Magic he was going to wreck them because of their GM and then Lebron wrecked them in dramatic fashion. DH's team was a game and a half behind Chicago on March 1st. From March first on Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Rose and Dirk's teams all had made big moves and they all played better than him. The Magic had the easiest schedule and the four big games they had (Chicago, Miami, LA and Atlanta) DH had no impact, didn't look like a superstar and his game was overshadowed in them all. His big games were only against weak defensive teams.

DH has a serious detachment issue with his team. He's not even well integrated into the team. He can go for 50/20 and the team not be moved. 8/8 and they are playing over their heads. They play harder and more aware when he isn't in the game. He isn't their effective leader. Its almost like he plays outside of the box. It was very weird. The team didn't have a lot of time to get chemistry down so it isn't all his fault but it wasn't like he asserted himself in the big games either. He made no statements at all after March 1st and you aren't going to get the award sitting down, with your team sinking and others making bigger and stronger stands - not going to happen.

Pointguard

09-17-2011, 02:17 AM

Don't know about that, they were the best defensive team in the league so even though they'd struggle to score, they'd be competitive.

Certainly much better than Orlando would be without Dwight, which is why Chicago won more. They were the 3rd best defensive team with him(most likely below average without him) and they were a pretty average offensive team with him, most likely, they'd be among the worst without him.

That's a huge luxury for an average defensive guard to have, playing with the best defensive team in the league.

I definitely think Howard is more valuable to Orlando(due to them relying on him so much at both ends) as well as being a superior player to Rose.

If not Howard, then I'd have been ok with Lebron as MVP or Dirk(Dallas won 55-18 with him, 2-7 without him and had the Butler injury as well)

As I mentioned above DH doesn't belong in the discussion. He flat out wasn't even playing hard when he was supposed to step up. Was weaker against the big boys during statement time as well. He's a great player that isn't even fully integrated into his team. He should also try playing great for more than half the season - that would help his cause as well. His leadership was garbage and he showed bad judgement at horrific times that cost his team three or four games when it counted most. Coach thought his judgement was so bad he didn't allow him to guard a rookie (DMC) in a critical game. There's only like three good centers in the whole game!

The Dallas 2-7 record without Dirk gets a little more attention than it should. They were on a road trip against 6 teams that beat them at home WITH Dirk! Plus they lost their number 2 scorer to further unbalance the team. Dirk too had a great year but savy vets, leaders, shooters, creators, a long time proven successful system and solid defense together wins you a lot of games.

What Rose did with a young team, a new coach, a new system, new players, hard injuries, no stars, no explosive players, no consistent shooter, not getting calls, and a serious lack of dribblers isn't matched by any of the others for MVP in terms of responsibility. The team reflected Derrick's calm: few techs and turning to him at the end of games. His leadership was just better than Wade's, Lebron's, Kobe's and Dirk's and it was taxed more because he lacked vets, continuity, and system experience. Derrick Rose held the elite down at his position unlike any other player in the MVP discussion. Derrick Rose made his team elite. Dirk is the only other one that could say that.

DH made his team a mystery. Lebron and DWade made their team a curiousity.

Hondo

09-17-2011, 03:23 AM

Derrick Rose and Steve Nash have no right to any MVPs

Clippersfan86

09-17-2011, 04:35 AM

Derrick Rose and Steve Nash have no right to any MVPs

Especially with the high caliber players in the league like just out of prime Shaq.. or in prime Kobe etc.

Hondo

09-17-2011, 04:49 AM

Especially with the high caliber players in the league like just out of prime Shaq.. or in prime Kobe etc.

Also prime Howard, James, Wade

iamgine

09-17-2011, 05:11 AM

Nash led his team to #1 record.

L.Kizzle

09-17-2011, 05:12 AM

Nash led his team to #1 record.
So did Shawn Kemp?

Hondo

09-17-2011, 05:14 AM

Nash led his team to #1 record.

So did Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Hondo

09-17-2011, 05:15 AM

Nash led his team to #1 record.

So did Clyde Drexler

Hondo

09-17-2011, 05:18 AM

Nash led his team to #1 record.

So did Ben Wallace and co

So did Jermaine O'Neal

So did Earl Monroe/ Wes Unseld

Point being, that does not qualify you to be an MVP

SteveNashMVPcro

09-17-2011, 05:51 AM

:facepalm
Phoenix won 29 games in the 2003/2004 season.By adding Nash they won 62 adn also they were only 2-5 without Nash

iamgine

09-17-2011, 06:52 AM

So did Ben Wallace and co

So did Jermaine O'Neal

So did Earl Monroe/ Wes Unseld

Point being, that does not qualify you to be an MVP
Their team was more balanced while Suns reliant on Nash was well established.

Odinn

09-17-2011, 07:18 AM

2011 - Rose (Bulls #1 in the L.)
2010 - LeBron (Cavs #1)
2009 - LeBron (Cavs #1)
2008 - Kobe (Lakers #3)
2007 - Dirk (Mavs #1)
2006 - Nash (Suns #4)
2005 - Nash (Suns #1)
2004 - Garnett (Wolves #2)
2003 - Duncan (Spurs #1)
2002 - Duncan (Spurs #2)
2001 - Iverson (Sixers #3)
2000 - Shaq (Lakers #1)
1999 - K. Malone (Jazz #2)
1998 - Jordan (Bulls #2)
1997 - K. Malone (Jazz #2)
1996 - Jordan (Bulls #1)
1995 - DRob (Spurs #1)
1994 - Hakeem (Rockets #2)
1993 - Barkley (Suns #1)
1992 - Jordan (Bulls #1)
1991 - Jordan (Bulls #2)
1990 - Magic (Lakers #1)
1989 - Magic (Lakers #2)
1988 - Jordan (Bulls #7)
1987 - Magic (Lakers #1)
1986 - Bird (Celtics #1)
1985 - Bird (Celtics #1)
1984 - Bird (Celtics #1)
1983 - Moses (Sixers #1)
1982 - Moses (Rockets #9)
1981 - Erving (Sixers #2)
1980 - Kareem (Lakers #2)
1979 - Moses (Rockets #8) (Bullets led the L with 54W, Rockets 47W)
1978 - B. Walton (Blazers #1)
1977 - Kareem (Lakers #1)

Post-merger era, 35 seasons completed and 19 times the best player of the league leader team won the MVP award.
Only 6 times, a player won it who isn't a part of league's best 2 teams.
Only 4 times, a player won it who isn't a part of league's best 3 teams.

ballerz

09-17-2011, 08:44 AM

It baffles me that prime shaq only won ONE mvp. he should at least have two or three

nathanjizzle

09-17-2011, 08:53 AM

wow stop bitching and crying about the mvp award. Derrick rose deserved it, he was the most valubale player to his team and the league. dwight howard didnt even get passed the first round because hes so valuable.

pauk

09-17-2011, 10:30 AM

ShaqAttack3234

09-17-2011, 11:04 AM

The award has progressively become a media creation, where members of the press collectively hype up a player during the season as being "deserving" -- and voila -- he wins the MVP.

The system suffered through wobbles in the past, with Malone and Barkley winning over Jordan, but completely went off the rails in 2005 with Nash over Shaq. The "voters" then compounded their mistake in the next year, and the award has never regained its prestige since.

Malone over Jordan in '97 was the wrong choice as well, imo. But the biggest problem I have with that selection is that if Chicago hadn't won 70+ games the previous season then I'm positive he wins in '97. Which is because the voters would have given him the '97 award for tying what would have still been the record of 69 wins. That wouldn't have made him any more or less valuable in '97 if that was still a record, but it's obvious the voters would have factored it in.

I have no problem with Barkley winning in '93, Charles was a real force himself, and had to carry Phoenix quite a bit to get them to the best record with KJ missing a lot of time and not performing at his usual level. Though I would've picked Hakeem in '93.

Actually the team's offense played more confidently without him. When he was getting suspended those games his team played with verve they didn't have with him. In the playoffs when he had that near 50/20 game they lost convincingly. The only game the Magic dominated was when he went 1 for 4 in the field for a 8 point 8 rebound game and 1 block in 29 minutes.

You're talking about 1 game where his cast performed well, there's not much evidence to suggest that they played better offensively without him considering they were just 1-3 without him.

The 1 win was early when they still had Vince Carter who had a 25 point/9 assist game vs Detroit on 10/15 shooting, and that certainly wasn't normal for Carter last season even when he played in Phoenix without Dwight.

Then they lost to Milwaukee and scored only 85 points, also lost to Portland scored just 85 and they lost to Chicago(though they did score 99).

I'll agree with you that getting suspended for those technicals was poor judgement.

wow stop bitching and crying about the mvp award. Derrick rose deserved it, he was the most valubale player to his team and the league. dwight howard didnt even get passed the first round because hes so valuable.

:oldlol: Because Dwight couldn't get away with shooting under 40% and having the best defense backing him up.

Here's what Dwight's cast did vs Atlanta.

Nelson- 13/4/5, 38 FG%
Turkoglu- 9/3/4, 29 FG%
Richardson- 10/4/1, 33 FG% (missed a game)
Anderson- 5/5, 27 FG%
Bass- 7/4, 42 FG%
Redick- 7/2/1, 37 FG%

You do realize that Dwight got to the conference finals last season without playing nearly as well as he did this year, got to the finals in 2009 and he wasn't as good as he is now and he got to the 2nd round in 2008 when he wasn't anywhere near the player he is now. Why? Because he had better casts then.

pauk

09-17-2011, 11:20 AM

good post shaqattack :applause:

where would u rank dwight in the league today ? i have him at #2

Pointguard

09-17-2011, 12:05 PM

You're talking about 1 game where his cast performed well, there's not much evidence to suggest that they played better offensively without him considering they were just 1-3 without him.

LOL, let me help you out because you went for a small sentence in a rather long response. So here it is again:

In the playoffs when DH had that near 50/20 game they lost convincingly. The only game the Magic dominated was when he went 1 for 4 in the field for a 8 point 8 rebound game and 1 block in 29 minutes.

DH made his case of MVP in Jan and Feb. if you forgive the game when Lebron came into his house and told the Magic he was going to wreck them because of their GM and then Lebron wrecked them in dramatic fashion. DH's team was a game and a half behind Chicago on March 1st. From March first on Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Rose and Dirk's teams all had made big moves and they all played better than him. The Magic had the easiest schedule and the four big games they had (Chicago, Miami, LA and Atlanta) DH had no impact, didn't look like a superstar and his game was overshadowed in them all. His big games were only against weak defensive teams.

DH has a serious detachment issue with his team. He's not even well integrated into the team. He can go for 50/20 and the team not be moved. 8/8 and they are playing over their heads. They play harder and more aware when he isn't in the game. He isn't their effective leader. Its almost like he plays outside of the box. It was very weird. The team didn't have a lot of time to get chemistry down so it isn't all his fault but it wasn't like he asserted himself in the big games either. He made no statements at all after March 1st and you aren't going to get the award sitting down, with your team sinking and others making bigger and stronger stands - not going to happen.

As I mentioned above DH doesn't belong in the discussion. He flat out wasn't even playing hard when he was supposed to step up. Was weaker against the big boys during statement time as well. He's a great player that isn't even fully integrated into his team. He should also try playing great for more than half the season - that would help his cause as well. His leadership was garbage and he showed bad judgement at horrific times that cost his team three or four games when it counted most. Coach thought his judgement was so bad he didn't allow him to guard a rookie (DMC) in a critical game. There's only like three good centers in the whole game!

What Rose did with a young team, a new coach, a new system, new players, hard injuries, no stars, no explosive players, no consistent shooter, not getting calls, and a serious lack of dribblers isn't matched by any of the others for MVP in terms of responsibility. The team reflected Derrick's calm: few techs and turning to him at the end of games. His leadership was just better than Wade's, Lebron's, Kobe's and Dirk's and it was taxed more because he lacked vets, continuity, and system experience. Derrick Rose held the elite down at his position unlike any other player in the MVP discussion. Derrick Rose made his team elite. Dirk is the only other one that could say that.

DH made his team a mystery. Lebron and DWade made their team a curiousity.

iamgine

09-17-2011, 12:35 PM

So is the voting system of 100+ panel of selected sportwriters & coaches wrong? Should we let selected ISH members vote instead? How would that look like I wonder...

cteach111

09-17-2011, 12:35 PM

I think you may be making a lot of assumptions about Dwight.. the first thing that came to my mind when wondering why the Magic just haven't looked the same since '09 and '10 is that teams understand their system. They saw what the Celtics were doing and then every team started single coverage on Dwight.

The Magic's system is just too simple.

I will admit though that this wouldn't be the first time that people have questioned Dwight's leadership.

Edit: Nevermind, I found a link.

D.J.

09-17-2011, 01:23 PM

Derrick Rose led the Bulls to a 61-21 record with both Boozer and Noah missing significant time. I like Dwight and he's definitely extremely valuable to the Magic, but no one outdid Rose in that department.

ShaqAttack3234

09-17-2011, 01:33 PM

good post shaqattack :applause:

where would u rank dwight in the league today ? i have him at #2

I'm fine with Dwight being ranked anywhere from 1-4. It'sd tough for me to rank the best players last season, h has a case for best, but Dirk, Lebron and Wade all have arguments for being ranked over him.

LOL, let me help you out because you went for a small sentence in a rather long response. So here it is again:

You already know that I don't agree with your take on this, we've argued about it many times with long posts.

You think Rose is much better than I do.

To put it simply, Dwight didn't have the cast to win much more than he did. Aside from Vince Carter's 15.1 ppg in 22 games, he didn't have a teammate average as many as 14 ppg. He was also the anchor of his defensive team, while Rose's lack of offensive talent is made up for by the fact that he had a top defensive team with him, unlike Dwight who made his team a top defensive team, that's the difference.

And on top of that, looking at their best players, Deng, Boozer and Noah were better than any of Dwight's teammates.

Myth

09-17-2011, 01:46 PM

MVP is a worthless award. Nash has as many as Kobe+Shaq put together.

If you want to know who the true best player is look at the Finals MVP. Not regular season.

Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, and Paul Pierce were best players in 2004, 2007, and 2008?

Friday

09-17-2011, 06:07 PM

There is no award that defines best player in the league. The cloest is probably finals MVP but it is better to just use the guy that was the best player in the NBA championship team instead.

Clippersfan86

09-17-2011, 06:16 PM

There is no award that defines best player in the league. The cloest is probably finals MVP but it is better to just use the guy that was the best player in the NBA championship team instead.

Yup that's more my point. Rarely is it the best player in the league anymore.

DMAVS41

09-17-2011, 06:24 PM

Malone over Jordan in '97 was the wrong choice as well, imo. But the biggest problem I have with that selection is that if Chicago hadn't won 70+ games the previous season then I'm positive he wins in '97. Which is because the voters would have given him the '97 award for tying what would have still been the record of 69 wins. That wouldn't have made him any more or less valuable in '97 if that was still a record, but it's obvious the voters would have factored it in.

I have no problem with Barkley winning in '93, Charles was a real force himself, and had to carry Phoenix quite a bit to get them to the best record with KJ missing a lot of time and not performing at his usual level. Though I would've picked Hakeem in '93.

You're talking about 1 game where his cast performed well, there's not much evidence to suggest that they played better offensively without him considering they were just 1-3 without him.

The 1 win was early when they still had Vince Carter who had a 25 point/9 assist game vs Detroit on 10/15 shooting, and that certainly wasn't normal for Carter last season even when he played in Phoenix without Dwight.

Then they lost to Milwaukee and scored only 85 points, also lost to Portland scored just 85 and they lost to Chicago(though they did score 99).

I'll agree with you that getting suspended for those technicals was poor judgement.

:oldlol: Because Dwight couldn't get away with shooting under 40% and having the best defense backing him up.

Here's what Dwight's cast did vs Atlanta.

Nelson- 13/4/5, 38 FG%
Turkoglu- 9/3/4, 29 FG%
Richardson- 10/4/1, 33 FG% (missed a game)
Anderson- 5/5, 27 FG%
Bass- 7/4, 42 FG%
Redick- 7/2/1, 37 FG%

You do realize that Dwight got to the conference finals last season without playing nearly as well as he did this year, got to the finals in 2009 and he wasn't as good as he is now and he got to the 2nd round in 2008 when he wasn't anywhere near the player he is now. Why? Because he had better casts then.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

To the bold. I don't know why people can't grasp this concept or reality.

aau

09-17-2011, 08:51 PM

DH has a serious detachment issue with his team. He's not even well integrated into the team. He can go for 50/20 and the team not be moved.

seems to be an ability issue

or lack thereof

Group A ........ Group B

ewing ........... shaq
y ming .......... duncan
camby .......... garnett
joneal ........... p gasol
ziggy ............ hakeem
bigben .......... kareem
tysonc .......... d rob
perkins .......... gilmore
okafor
dally b
haywd
jeffersn

.

A averages 0-1 apg ............ B averages 2-4

dwight averages 0 to 1 assists per game

great player , , , , , , not a playmaker

.

he's going to need a lot of help like with jameer/hedo 09

a couple of players that can average 5-6 assists

D-Wade316

09-17-2011, 10:27 PM

The MVP award should really go to the best player in the league, not the best player on the best team. Nash? :facepalm Rose? :facepalm Prime Shaq with only 1 MVP? :facepalm

SteveNashMVPcro

09-18-2011, 05:11 AM

The MVP award should really go to the best player in the league, not the best player on the best team. Nash? :facepalm Rose? :facepalm Prime Shaq with only 1 MVP? :facepalm
It's called the most VABLUABLE player award not the best player award

D-Wade316

09-18-2011, 06:50 AM

It's called the most VABLUABLE player award not the best player award
The best player is easily the most valuable player.

SteveNashMVPcro

09-18-2011, 09:14 AM

The best player is easily the most valuable player.
So who's better a guy putting up 25ppg and leading his team to 60 wins or a guy putting up 30 ppg on a 30 win team

Pointguard

09-18-2011, 10:29 AM

seems to be an ability issue

or lack thereof

Group A ........ Group B

ewing ........... shaq
y ming .......... duncan
camby .......... garnett
joneal ........... p gasol
ziggy ............ hakeem
bigben .......... kareem
tysonc .......... d rob
perkins .......... gilmore
okafor
dally b
haywd
jeffersn

A averages 0-1 apg ............ B averages 2-4

dwight averages 0 to 1 assists per game

great player , , , , , , not a playmaker

he's going to need a lot of help like with jameer/hedo 09

a couple of players that can average 5-6 assists
Thank you. As always... good stuff.

Pointguard

09-18-2011, 11:33 AM

You think Rose is much better than I do.

To put it simply, Dwight didn't have the cast to win much more than he did. Aside from Vince Carter's 15.1 ppg in 22 games, he didn't have a teammate average as many as 14 ppg. He was also the anchor of his defensive team, while Rose's lack of offensive talent is made up for by the fact that he had a top defensive team with him, unlike Dwight who made his team a top defensive team, that's the difference.

And on top of that, looking at their best players, Deng, Boozer and Noah were better than any of Dwight's teammates.
Its not even approaching that. Dwight's play and leadership since March 1st was mysterious at best and definitely below Kobe, Dirk, Durant and Rose's level. I'm not talking about his teammates play - their supposed to be leader stepped it down anyway. In the more important games during the stretch and the distance between DH and the other MVP candidates has more separation. No stepping it up, no urgency, no leadership from Dwight. His tenacity and mental game??? He didn't show good judgement last year either. The team finished the year just as Dwight's year finished -unfocused, detached from its center, and more confident without him. He was great on offense and great on defense but in the end you aren't going to win much if your head and heart looses your teammates.

Rose was the heart of his team: Their confidence in winning games in the fourth quarter. Their overachieving... with no excuses approach, the take the blow and keep going. Their focus and discipline was his reflection on them. When Boozer and Noah underachieved - no excuses. When they got hurt - no excuses. No calls - no excuses. Derrick Rose was the fully integrated leader of their winning ways.

RRR3

09-18-2011, 11:34 AM

Pointguard

09-18-2011, 11:38 AM

Durant is a great leader now? :roll:
When your reading game steps up you will realize I am talking in the opposite direction about DH.

Eat Like A Bosh

09-18-2011, 11:45 AM

The MVP voting is usually for players who were having a breakout season and their team is exceeding expectations.

bballnoob1192

09-18-2011, 12:20 PM

nah... FMVP is even less worth....

MVP is at least battled by ALL players and ALL teams in about 82 games...

FMVP is battled by only 2 teams and about 10 players or so in about 4-7 games....

MVP is much harder to accomplish........ heck even POTM (player of the month trophy/award) is much harder to accomplish than FMVP.....

The player doesnt give a damn about the FMVP.... its the Championship he wants....

FMVP is basically just... "Well thank you for winning a Championship and we know u dont give a damn, but anyways here is something extra because u played best during these 4-7 games in your team"

Basically........ even JJ Barea could have won the FMVP right now if he produced a bit better than Dirk during those 4-7 games....

Even Pau Gasol was extremly close to take that FMVP from Kobe the last time.

Tony parker has won it over T.Duncan and so on...

4-7 Games is enough for your sidekick to maybe pile up better numbers than you...

I'm not saying finals mvp is a more prestigious award than regular season mvp because its not. Since anyone who gets a regular season mvp is auto lock for HoF unlike people like parker and billups who wins FMVP and still prolly wont make it to HoF. However, the myth about FMVP being only 4-7 games is wrong because you actually have to get to the finals and win the ship to get the finals mvp. I'm saying that the finals mvp is a collective accomplishment of the entire playoff run because usually the person that wins the finals mvp was the best player on his team throughout the entire playoff except for like Magic in his first chip cause Kareem got injured. So playing anywhere from 16-25ish games of intense playoff defense and having to play higher defense yourself and actually winning unlike jerry west makes FMVP pretty impressive and not just a 4-7 game myth.

aau

09-18-2011, 01:21 PM

Rose was the heart of his team: Their confidence in winning games in the fourth quarter. Their overachieving... with no excuses approach, the take the blow and keep going. Their focus and discipline was his reflection on them. .

but dwight shoots a gargantuan 60% from the floor

rose only shoots 46% . . . because of this
we can't possibly believe that rose is
anywhere near dwight as a player

c'mon point

confidence , heart , leadership , focus , discipline

you're talking about concepts you won't find in

boxscores , fantasy sports or video games

SCdac

09-18-2011, 01:58 PM

Pointguard

09-18-2011, 02:33 PM

Well said.

Rose definitely was the heart and leader of the team. It was so obvious, and he was clutch and played well against the best teams, to boot. With Dwight, of course he's the best player on his team. But there does seem to be detachment and lack of focus. He strikes me as more of a finisher than a player in which the whole system flows through (like Rose, or Duncan, etc), which is partly his teammates, party his coach, and of course partly him... his passing game and overall court vision is not elite, or even above average in any way, and to me he's more reminiscent of a prime Alonzo (who was an MVP candidate at times too, but never quite the best choice). The MVP went to the right player last season imo. Dwights scoring improved but his team didn't really improve and there was nothing about his/Magic's season that screamed "Wow". Him being picked MVP would have been more about his status as the best big in the league at the time, not necessarily his value (which IS top 5 in the league easily, but not #1 imo) at this point in time relative to other players. Rose not only lead his team in scoring but he was the facilitator too. When he dished out 10 or more assists, the Bulls were 16-4.
I think his fans or fans of centers figured if Dwight improves his post game he's MVP. But things happened, the team made big moves and DH lost his connection to the team. I don't think he's the type that can adapt fast and he kind of got lost in the sauce. His weaknesses came to light. He couldn't maintain his aggression. Still it was the type of year if you didn't witness it you could say DH was all that. Orlando only had four tough scheduled games after March 1st and he wasn't factor in any of them and managed to get suspended in two more games. He only feasted on teams with weak defenses and Chicago, which had a tougher schedule, left them in the dust. A serious story of one team knowing where there bread and butter was and another team having to settle for Clark Kent.

Pointguard

09-18-2011, 04:00 PM

but dwight shoots a gargantuan 60% from the floor

rose only shoots 46% . . . because of this
we can't possibly believe that rose is
anywhere near dwight as a player

c'mon point

confidence , heart , leadership , focus , discipline

you're talking about concepts you won't find in

boxscores , fantasy sports or video games

When you have a player that is at the core of a team, uniting, keeping them disciplined, focused and confident, that team is going to beat other teams that aren't as cohesive. That's why Chicago beat the rest of the Elite 8 after Dec 3rd across the board - no exceptions, no excuses. They didn't have the experience or vets or talent or health or knowledge of their system those teams had but they had that equalizer. Yet somehow DH, who self imploded in the lack of those qualities, is considered somehow better than Rose. What a joke. Rose was hardcore integrated into his teams winning ways in ways that DH wasn't close to duplicating. The knock on Rose was his efficiency but guess what, Derrick Rose kept coming at teams, kept winning the fourth quarter and in the end, his shooting percentage was part of a wining equation that sought to wear the other team down. But you can only do that if you have more heart, more energy and more will than your opponent. DH stopped coming once March hit - he was efficient, sobeit, with the impact of a flea.

Like you suggested, some people don't see the game they watching much better than the boxscore reveals it.

Bigsmoke

09-18-2011, 06:37 PM

Clippersfan86

09-18-2011, 07:17 PM

boohoo.

who the **** thought that the Bulls were going to win 62 games again?

Thanks for proving my point. Exactly what I thought. People think the MVP award should go to the breakout team's best player. THIS IS WRONG.

ShaqAttack3234

09-18-2011, 07:57 PM

Its not even approaching that. Dwight's play and leadership since March 1st was mysterious at best and definitely below Kobe, Dirk, Durant and Rose's level. I'm not talking about his teammates play - their supposed to be leader stepped it down anyway. In the more important games during the stretch and the distance between DH and the other MVP candidates has more separation. No stepping it up, no urgency, no leadership from Dwight. His tenacity and mental game??? He didn't show good judgement last year either. The team finished the year just as Dwight's year finished -unfocused, detached from its center, and more confident without him. He was great on offense and great on defense but in the end you aren't going to win much if your head and heart looses your teammates.

Rose was the heart of his team: Their confidence in winning games in the fourth quarter. Their overachieving... with no excuses approach, the take the blow and keep going. Their focus and discipline was his reflection on them. When Boozer and Noah underachieved - no excuses. When they got hurt - no excuses. No calls - no excuses. Derrick Rose was the fully integrated leader of their winning ways.

All I see is cliches and things that are open to interpretation.

How many of Dwight's teammates last season could you look at and call winners? I can name several key ones off the top of my head whose effort has been questioned countless times even on other teams(Carter, Arenas, Turkoglu are the ones everyone should remember).

So yeah, when you have a roster filled with players like that as well as a good supply of chuckers, they may seem "detached" as well as a big midseason trade to adjust to.

And the primary responsibility for motivating players falls on the coach, and the attitudes of those players also has to be considered(it would not surprise me at all if most or even all of the difference in that regard was because of those 2 things).

Does Dwight make his players better offensively? I'm not really convinced, but at the same time, he goes out there and gives them one consistent performer at that end you can bet that he covers their asses defensively.

His best player was Jameer Nelson, who is a skilled player, but a poor decision maker who is really limited by his size at both ends. A very bad defensive player and not the guy I'd want as the primary ball handler on my team. It makes perfect sense that Orlando lost Nelson in '09(when he was playing much better than in '11), replaced him with Rafer Alston and went all the way to the finals.

Rose's team on the other hand had much better individual defenders, his coach is regarded as one of the best defensive minds in the game(hence their great defense) and he had a similar amount of offensive talent around him to Howard, possibly more.

Howard was simply relied on a lot more, and you can see this even more when looking at their team at both ends. They won 52 games with the 3rd best defense and just the 17th best offense. Take away Howard, and I think everyone has a good idea of how much their defense falls off, and yes, they are worse offensively without Howard.

Not necessarily because he makes his teammates better offensively, but because you're taking away a guy who will grab 4 offensive rebounds per game and get at least a few easy baskets on lobs or off of guard's penetration. And he proved to be by far the most consistent scoring option on the team among players you can give the ball to and score for themselves(I don't hear many people questioning his post game anymore.) They may look good sometimes without Howard, that's what can happen when you rely on 3s, if you get hot and hit a ton, but there would also be even more of those nights where they're throwing up a ton of them and missing left and right, except they wouldn't have a reliable offensive option to go to, or a guy who to clean up those misses.

Rose's teammates at least busted their ass defensively every night so they had no problem surviving when Rose was throwing up bricks.

It's also hard not to laugh when I hear you talking about Rose's leadership as if he's Bill Russell. Then again, I've also heard you make these claims about Rose being some great defensive player.

Pointguard

09-18-2011, 11:12 PM

All I see is cliches and things that are open to interpretation.

How many of Dwight's teammates last season could you look at and call winners? I can name several key ones off the top of my head whose effort has been questioned countless times even on other teams(Carter, Arenas, Turkoglu are the ones everyone should remember).

So yeah, when you have a roster filled with players like that as well as a good supply of chuckers, they may seem "detached" as well as a big midseason trade to adjust to.
Cliche or not cliche? Does Rose have any excuses? Who is the other winner teammate in Chicago? Rose had a ton of adjustments over the year. In fact he had adjustments all year long. Nothing open to intepretation there.

His team was not the most talented, they were among the youngest of elite eight. Cliche or not Cliche? Injuries hit them hard. New system, new coach - you said I left a lot to intepretation and cliches but yet you didn't address one thing?

And the primary responsibility for motivating players falls on the coach, and the attitudes of those players also has to be considered(it would not surprise me at all if most or even all of the difference in that regard was because of those 2 things). You can have motivating coaches - but that is a lot rarer than motivating players. First year coaches are task driven and too overwhlemed to be motivators. Heck, Thibes spent very little time working on offense. Phil Jackson, Red Aurabach and Pat Riley thrived off of motivated players (Kobe would be picked over Shaq because of this quality and why the Lakers invested in Magic and didn't entertain the thought with Kareem).

Howard was simply relied on a lot more, and you can see this even more when looking at their team at both ends. They won 52 games with the 3rd best defense and just the 17th best offense. Take away Howard, and I think everyone has a good idea of how much their defense falls off, and yes, they are worse offensively without Howard.

Not necessarily because he makes his teammates better offensively, but because you're taking away a guy who will grab 4 offensive rebounds per game and get at least a few easy baskets on lobs or off of guard's penetration. And he proved to be by far the most consistent scoring option on the team among players you can give the ball to and score for themselves(I don't hear many people questioning his post game anymore.) They may look good sometimes without Howard, that's what can happen when you rely on 3s, if you get hot and hit a ton, but there would also be even more of those nights where they're throwing up a ton of them and missing left and right, except they wouldn't have a reliable offensive option to go to, or a guy who to clean up those misses.

Rose's teammates at least busted their ass defensively every night so they had no problem surviving when Rose was throwing up bricks.

Sounds like a dividend of leadership, huh? Your whole position is nothing but excuses - which is an admission of underachievement. That's why I have Rose as better - no excuses. I think Rose and DH had it harder than Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Durant and Lebron. Rose overachieved and DH underachieved when it mattered most. If it was about the teammates then Kobe, Lebron, Durant and Wade win MVP and should have won more games than Rose's team. So that argument isn't worth the time tho you were beating it to death.

It's also hard not to laugh when I hear you talking about Rose's leadership as if he's Bill Russell. Then again, I've also heard you make these claims about Rose being some great defensive player.

LOL, I never even said great or compared him to Kobe or other top leaders of today. I did contrast him to Dwight which aparently would magnify Kwame Browns leadership gifts, but I didn't up Rose like you are saying.

Here's a cliche to boot: I rather take the guy that I don't have to make excuses for and finishes the job than the guy that gets further away from his teammates and falls off at the site of the finish line.

G-train

09-18-2011, 11:28 PM

Media votes, so its gonna be BS until the players and coaches vote.

G-train

09-18-2011, 11:29 PM

Media votes, so its gonna be BS until the players and coaches vote.

Heck I would rather see the Commish just decide than the media.

DMAVS41

09-18-2011, 11:33 PM

Cliche or not cliche? Does Rose have any excuses? Who is the other winner teammate in Chicago? Rose had a ton of adjustments over the year. In fact he had adjustments all year long. Nothing open to intepretation there.

His team was not the most talented, they were among the youngest of elite eight. Cliche or not Cliche? Injuries hit them hard. New system, new coach - you said I left a lot to intepretation and cliches but yet you didn't address one thing?

You can have motivating coaches - but that is a lot rarer than motivating players. First year coaches are task driven and too overwhlemed to be motivators. Heck, Thibes spent very little time working on offense. Phil Jackson, Red Aurabach and Pat Riley thrived off of motivated players (Kobe would be picked over Shaq because of this quality and why the Lakers invested in Magic and didn't entertain the thought with Kareem).

Sounds like a dividend of leadership, huh? Your whole position is nothing but excuses - which is an admission of underachievement. That's why I have Rose as better - no excuses. I think Rose and DH had it harder than Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Durant and Lebron. Rose overachieved and DH underachieved when it mattered most. If it was about the teammates then Kobe, Lebron, Durant and Wade win MVP and should have won more games than Rose's team. So that argument isn't worth the time tho you were beating it to death.

LOL, I never even said great or compared him to Kobe or other top leaders of today. I did contrast him to Dwight which aparently would magnify Kwame Browns leadership gifts, but I didn't up Rose like you are saying.

Here's a cliche to boot: I rather take the guy that I don't have to make excuses for and finishes the job than the guy that gets further away from his teammates and falls off at the site of the finish line.

Are you high? Rose crumbled under the pressure in the ECF....his late game play was some of the most atrocious pg play I've ever seen. If he's just average late in those games the Bulls might have made the finals.

Rose over-achieved when it mattered most? Holy shit...

ShaqAttack3234

09-18-2011, 11:40 PM

Cliche or not cliche? Does Rose have any excuses? Who is the other winner teammate in Chicago? Rose had a ton of adjustments over the year. In fact he had adjustments all year long. Nothing open to intepretation there.

Yet that great defense backing him was a constant. Dwight didn't have a luxury like that, not even remotely close.

His team was not the most talented, they were among the youngest of elite eight. Cliche or not Cliche? Injuries hit them hard. New system, new coach - you said I left a lot to intepretation and cliches but yet you didn't address one thing?

Yes, I not only addressed every "point" you attempted to make, but hopefully helped those who don't understand basketball realize that you don't judge how good a team is on paper. I see so many people disregard how much of a luxury it is for an an average defensive guard to have a defense like that.

You can have motivating coaches - but that is a lot rarer than motivating players. First year coaches are task driven and too overwhlemed to be motivators. Heck, Thibes spent very little time working on offense. Phil Jackson, Red Aurabach and Pat Riley thrived off of motivated players (Kobe would be picked over Shaq because of this quality and why the Lakers invested in Magic and didn't entertain the thought with Kareem).

Wrong, you mentioned Phil and he did a ton of motivating in his first year with the Lakers. It's something that a good coach has to do often throughout a season with most teams.

Actually, not many GMs would pick Kobe over Shaq if they're similar ages and I have my doubts about many picking Magic over Kareem, if they're again similar ages.

Sounds like a dividend of leadership, huh? Your whole position is nothing but excuses - which is an admission of underachievement. That's why I have Rose as better - no excuses. I think Rose and DH had it harder than Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Durant and Lebron. Rose overachieved and DH underachieved when it mattered most. If it was about the teammates then Kobe, Lebron, Durant and Wade win MVP and should have won more games than Rose's team. So that argument isn't worth the time tho you were beating it to death.

No and Orlando didn't underachieve given their talent level around Howard. That team wasn't much more than a 50+ win type team, and that was with Howard having the season he did. It's extremely relevant that Rose was in a much easier position to win.

LOL, I never even said great or compared him to Kobe or other top leaders of today. I did contrast him to Dwight which aparently would magnify Kwame Browns leadership gifts, but I didn't up Rose like you are saying

And comparing their leadership is ridiculous when they aren't in equal situations. Dwight has already led his team farther than Rose has(in '09) and as far in 2010.

Here's a cliche to boot: I rather take the guy that I don't have to make excuses for and finishes the job than the guy that gets further away from his teammates and falls off at the site of the finish line.

Rose didn't finish the job either, he got to the conference finals and then shot a truly pathetic 35%.

By this ridiculous logic, Dwight was better in '08, '09 and '10 then he was last year, and countless players were better than Kobe in '06 and '07, or Wade in '09 and '10 ect.

These aren't excuses, they're relevant points that have to be brought up when discussing how far your team goes or how much they win. Dwight's more serious demeanor last year was actually praised by analysts compared to '09 and '10 when his team won more and advanced farther.

SCdac

09-19-2011, 12:02 AM

Bigsmoke

09-19-2011, 12:02 AM

Pointguard

09-19-2011, 08:27 AM

Are you high? Rose crumbled under the pressure in the ECF....his late game play was some of the most atrocious pg play I've ever seen. If he's just average late in those games the Bulls might have made the finals.

Rose over-achieved when it mattered most? Holy shit...

Dmavs, I know you are highly overdramatic and it almost always affects your reading. Read the title of the thread. You are comical.

Pointguard

09-19-2011, 08:31 AM

Are you high? Rose crumbled under the pressure in the ECF....his late game play was some of the most atrocious pg play I've ever seen. If he's just average late in those games the Bulls might have made the finals.

Rose over-achieved when it mattered most? Holy shit...

Playoff play Rose has DH beat there too just incase you thought you were making sense.

Pointguard

09-19-2011, 09:08 AM

Yet that great defense backing him was a constant. Dwight didn't have a luxury like that, not even remotely close. Rose didn't optionally take the road to low key his game down the stretch. Instead Rose kept the pressure up til the last game. Rose didn't optionally play less after March 1st. Rose didn't optionally play with less enthusiasm against top competition as the season was winding down. Rose never had the luxury of hiding and playing the way DH did after March 1st. You have five other guys ahead of Rose in your rankings and you seemingly forgot that they had way more luxuries than Rose. So why don't you apply the rules to that situation?

Yes, I not only addressed every "point" you attempted to make, but hopefully helped those who don't understand basketball realize that you don't judge how good a team is on paper. I see so many people disregard how much of a luxury it is for an an average defensive guard to have a defense like that.
Rose had the hardest season of all the MVP candidates. His other two top players underachieved and were injured for a good part of the season - one never learned the plays. New system, new coach, 20 minute practices for offense for more than half the year while having a lack of creators and even dribblers, young players, Rose shutting down the elite at his position unlike any other point guard, he had to provide consistency and pressure unlike any of the other candidates. To say luxury is to totally miss how much more Rose was dealing with.

Wrong, you mentioned Phil and he did a ton of motivating in his first year with the Lakers. It's something that a good coach has to do often throughout a season with most teams.

Phil's first year was in Chicago?

No and Orlando didn't underachieve given their talent level around Howard. That team wasn't much more than a 50+ win type team, and that was with Howard having the season he did. It's extremely relevant that Rose was in a much easier position to win. And comparing their leadership is ridiculous when they aren't in equal situations. Dwight has already led his team farther than Rose has(in '09) and as far in 2010.

You are building your own hole here. You have five other guys ranked ahead of Rose and you seemingly forgot to apply this rule. All I ask for is consistency. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. Rose definitely had it harder than Lebron, Wade, Durant and Kobe. And he met his challenges and overcame them better than DH did. Sorry DH just didn't play effective in big games after Feb.

Rose won more than all of them with as much COVERED responsibility than all of them. What more could he have done??? To say that he should have done more is admitting he is, superior OR that the other contenders are operating out of some handicap.

Pointguard

09-19-2011, 11:10 AM

MVP is a regular season award. Mid season Rose dropped 29 points/7 assists on the Jazz, then turned around and had 23 points/6 assists against the Hornets - both games out-scoring his biggest competition in Deron Williams and Chris Paul, and both games leading the Bulls in scoring. He dropped 42 points on the hottest regular season team (SA Spurs), his teammates through out the season were talking about how he "took over games". Regardless of how much room he had "to slack on defense" (almost as if he wasn't a part of the defense?), Rose scored about a quarter of the Bulls total points in the 2011 season (and they're a low scoring team), he had a really high Usage-%, finished top-10 in scoring and assists, and the Bulls had some great wins. It's really not that hard to see how much of an influence Rose was on the Bulls, and how he won the award.

Hate blinds people here and they are trying hard not to see anyway. Could you imagine if Rose got the foul calls that these other candidates got? What a lot of people miss is that Rose had to push the issue for the team to win. When you force things, efficiency suffers but if its part of an overachieving winning formula, it achieves its end. Rose on defense, was stellar against the elite. He also is a very good rebounding point guard. To listen to people here is to believe he had no role on defense or rebounding. Really is quite funny.

DMAVS41

09-19-2011, 11:20 AM

Playoff play Rose has DH beat there too just incase you thought you were making sense.

When you type:

"When it mattered most"......how could that be about the regular season?

And even if it was about the regular season, Howard was simply the better player.

I know you are blinded by your love for an over-rated sg pretending to play pg, but maybe you should actually come back to reality. Some day you'll learn that how Rose plays the game directly impacts the performance of those "scrub" teammates you always blame. LOL

Howard put up better overall numbers in the regular season and is literally 3 times the defensive force that Rose is. You keep coming back to the Bulls winning 10 more games like it should decide who the best player is. It doesn't. Anyone that watched the games this year knows that Howard reached a new level and was easily a better player now than he was in the past. Under your logic, 09 Howard was better than 11 Howard. And that is simply a joke.

As I have said before, Rose deserved MVP based on the historical criteria of the award. However, Rose was not a better player than Howard last year and absolutely did not play better in the playoffs.

All you do is throw about a bunch of meaningless sports cliches that can't be proven at all to make excuses for your boy crumbling in the playoffs. All he had to do was play average and the Bulls could easily have won the title. Instead, he was very poor and he cost his team a chance to make the finals and win it all. The Bulls lost in the ECF because of Rose's inept pg play and efficiency. The Magic did not lose because Howard "wet the bed" like Rose did. They lost because Howard's supporting cast was awful...just awful.

Once again, when Rose shot over 42.1% in the playoffs, the Bulls were undefeated. Thats all it takes when you have the luxury of the best rebounding/defensive team in the league behind you. Rose couldn't do it though....and even with his horrendous play in the ECF...his team still gave him leads late in the 4th and chances to win. What did he do? He turned it over on simple passes and couldn't throw it in the ocean the entire series in crunch time.

Yep...he played great when it "mattered most"....LOL

Again...are you high?

Rose in the last 4 games of the ECF:

21 points 30% fg.....down 6 entering the 4th
20 points 42% fg.....down 3 entering the 4th
23 points 30% fg.....up 5 entering the 4th
25 points 31% fg.....up 5 entering the 4th

The last two games he took an average of 28 shots....LOL...as a pg. And as if those numbers need to get worse, Rose shot something around 9% in the 4th qtr. Each game the Bulls lost was winnable and Rose really could not have played worse. Bad turnovers...horrible shot jacking....just about as bad as a player can play.

DMAVS41

09-19-2011, 11:45 AM

Also, no matter who you surround Howard with....that team is going to be a top 5 (probably better) defense in the league. I mean look at the defensive players he's had the last few years and they've been top 3 each year. Its all Howard.

Rose was surrounded by the best defensive/rebounding team in the league this year. Again, Rose made almost no impact on defense/rebounding for the Bulls this year. His impact was primarily offensive. The Bulls had the 11th best offense this year...or around that.

If you gave Howard the best offensive team in the league (as Rose had the best defensive team)....the Magic would have won 65 plus games and probably won the title easily.

You can't just ignore that. The Magic were elite defensively pretty much solely because of Howard. The Bulls being the best defensive team and rebounding team in the league has almost nothing to do with Rose....in fact, the Bulls defense got better all year with Rose out of the game.

Give Howard that same level of help and logic would tell you the results would be better than what Rose did...especially given the fact that when Howard had the 11th best offense in 09....he made the Finals.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-19-2011, 11:47 AM

Holy shit...And people say Rose isn't overrated? Check this thread out...

nathanjizzle

09-19-2011, 11:50 AM

stop bitching and crying. WHich ever way you want the mvp award to be voted he would still win because he is the most valuable player. Media- derrick rose. coaches and players- derrick rose

Lebron23

09-19-2011, 11:56 AM

Holy shit...And people say Rose isn't overrated? Check this thread out...

He might not win another MVP Award unless he really improves his overall game and increases his productions.

Legends66NBA7

09-19-2011, 11:57 AM

Holy shit...And people say Rose isn't overrated? Check this thread out...

You said it. I don't know where people are getting the idea Dwight Howard is some all world beater on both ends of the floor. And for MVP ? I don't think he would have gotten it either, it was to me Derrick Rose and LeBron James in the running.

This link validates Rose as least:

http://www.bulls101.com/2011/07/28/basketball-reference-com-derrick-rose-ruled-best-defenses-in-2010-11/

Dwight Howard has easily become the most overrated in the offseason, since LeBron's meltdown. He's playing in the weakest era of centers (big men overall) and the man still finds ways to score in single digits from the likes of an undersized power forward in Al Horford. Poor passer, highly turnover prone, and still lacking a dependable jumpshot.

Hopefully, round 2 with Hakeem can bring to fruition a better offensive arsenal from this summer.

Legends66NBA7

09-19-2011, 11:58 AM

He might not win another MVP Award unless he really improves his overall game and increases his productions.

Outside of consistent defense, what other places in his game should he increase in overall production ? I think it should be his passing game, for sure.

All Net

09-19-2011, 12:12 PM

Who knows maybe Rose can pull off another Nash but I doubt it.

Rose played as bad as any star in the playoffs. Maybe it was down to having to do too much?

Legends66NBA7

09-19-2011, 12:26 PM

Who knows maybe Rose can pull off another Nash but I doubt it.

Rose played as bad as any star in the playoffs. Maybe it was down to having to do too much?

Yes it was. The Chicago offense was too stagnent in those playoffs and relied to heavily on Rose in the 4th.

I wouldn't agree he played as bad as any star though. He has his moments in Indiana and Atlanta.

ShaqAttack3234

09-19-2011, 01:50 PM

The Heat without Lebron= still have Wade and Bosh = 50-32 team

Bulls without Rose = Boozer and Noah missed a lot of time= 32-50 at best.

but yet the Bulls still finished with a better record. :rolleyes:

Wade and LeBron are better players but they werent as "valuable" to their teams as Rose was.

32-50? Where the hell are you getting that from? A team that dominates that much defensively and on the boards isn't winning just 32 games.

Worst case is something like 47-48 wins. Then again, they did outscore opponents by 5.2 points per 48 minutes that Rose was off the court, so maybe my estimate is low.

Rose didn't optionally take the road to low key his game down the stretch. Instead Rose kept the pressure up til the last game. Rose didn't optionally play less after March 1st. Rose didn't optionally play with less enthusiasm against top competition as the season was winding down. Rose never had the luxury of hiding and playing the way DH did after March 1st. You have five other guys ahead of Rose in your rankings and you seemingly forgot that they had way more luxuries than Rose. So why don't you apply the rules to that situation?

Dwight in March and April- 21.9 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 3 bpg, 58 FG%, 20 games

I have 5 guys(at least) ahead of Rose in my best players rankings for '11, though not all of them were more deserving for MVP. I have 3 off the top of my head who I thought were more deserving of MVP(Howard, Dirk, Lebron)

Rose had the hardest season of all the MVP candidates. His other two top players underachieved and were injured for a good part of the season - one never learned the plays. New system, new coach, 20 minute practices for offense for more than half the year while having a lack of creators and even dribblers, young players,

Yeah, a hard season....his team was the best defensively and outrebounded opponents by 5.7 rebounds per game. Now, how on earth could I expect him to win with that type of help? :rolleyes:

Rose shutting down the elite at his position unlike any other point guard

:roll: Yeah, and I'm sure Tony Parker also "shut down the elite" too back when the Spurs were great defensively. It's called playing on a great defensive team, elite players tend to struggle when they go against top defensive teams.

he had to provide consistency and pressure unlike any of the other candidates. To say luxury is to totally miss how much more Rose was dealing with.

Not true. Rose shot under 40% from the field 26 times, Chicago was 20-6 in those games.

Phil's first year was in Chicago?

Phil stated that those Bulls teams were much more self-motivated than his Laker teams, though he did get Jordan to buy into his system when he got there.

You are building your own hole here. You have five other guys ranked ahead of Rose and you seemingly forgot to apply this rule. All I ask for is consistency. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. Rose definitely had it harder than Lebron, Wade, Durant and Kobe. And he met his challenges and overcame them better than DH did. Sorry DH just didn't play effective in big games after Feb.

See above as far as the 5 guys ranked ahead of Rose.

Rose won more than all of them with as much COVERED responsibility than all of them. What more could he have done??? To say that he should have done more is admitting he is, superior OR that the other contenders are operating out of some handicap.

The problem is that this first statement simply isn't true. I've already explained why Dwight had more responsibility many times. I'm saying that Rose isn't the type of player who deserves MVP, he had a good season and Chicago won, but they're a great team as well.

Whatever, I'm done going back and forth with you. We do this every time the MVP argument comes up and I see the same crap from you every time. Ignorance towards Dwight, a simple-minded view on supporting casts and basketball, and giving Rose credit for everything, even things that he doesn't deserve.

DMAVS41

09-19-2011, 02:13 PM

32-50? Where the hell are you getting that from? A team that dominates that much defensively and on the boards isn't winning just 32 games.

Worst case is something like 47-48 wins. Then again, they did outscore opponents by 5.2 points per 48 minutes that Rose was off the court, so maybe my estimate is low.

Dwight in March and April- 21.9 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 3 bpg, 58 FG%, 20 games

I have 5 guys(at least) ahead of Rose in my best players rankings for '11, though not all of them were more deserving for MVP. I have 3 off the top of my head who I thought were more deserving of MVP(Howard, Dirk, Lebron)

Yeah, a hard season....his team was the best defensively and outrebounded opponents by 5.7 rebounds per game. Now, how on earth could I expect him to win with that type of help? :rolleyes:

:roll: Yeah, and I'm sure Tony Parker also "shut down the elite" too back when the Spurs were great defensively. It's called playing on a great defensive team, elite players tend to struggle when they go against top defensive teams.

Not true. Rose shot under 40% from the field 26 times, Chicago was 20-6 in those games.

Phil stated that those Bulls teams were much more self-motivated than his Laker teams, though he did get Jordan to buy into his system when he got there.

See above as far as the 5 guys ranked ahead of Rose.

The problem is that this first statement simply isn't true. I've already explained why Dwight had more responsibility many times. I'm saying that Rose isn't the type of player who deserves MVP, he had a good season and Chicago won, but they're a great team as well.

Whatever, I'm done going back and forth with you. We do this every time the MVP argument comes up and I see the same crap from you every time. Ignorance towards Dwight, a simple-minded view on supporting casts and basketball, and giving Rose credit for everything, even things that he doesn't deserve.

Pretty much this.

I love how the simple fact that the Bulls went 20-6 in games that Rose shot under 40% is completely ignored. Oh, and the fact that the Bulls defense was better when Rose wasn't on the court.

All you have to look at is the ECF. The Bulls were playing the 2nd best team in basketball. Rose was awful. Nobody (not even huge Rose homers) can dispute that. Yet even though Rose was awful, the Bulls had a good chance to win every single game going into crunch time. And that wasn't some random happening. The Bulls won a ton of games this year in which Rose/Offense performed poorly.

Pointguard

09-19-2011, 04:21 PM

Dwight in March and April- 21.9 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 3 bpg, 58 FG%, 20 games

I have 5 guys(at least) ahead of Rose in my best players rankings for '11, though not all of them were more deserving for MVP. I have 3 off the top of my head who I thought were more deserving of MVP(Howard, Dirk, Lebron)

Dwight only big games in the last month and a half came against the Knicks, Toronto, Pheonix and Charlotte where he was about 30 and 13. With a weak schedule they only played four competitive teams (all of which he failed to get up for) and he was about 18 and 13 against LA, Chicago, Atl and Miami. they only beat Miami and that was because Dwight was relegated to rebounding tho it was a 14 and 8 game.

Yeah, a hard season....his team was the best defensively and outrebounded opponents by 5.7 rebounds per game. Now, how on earth could I expect him to win with that type of help? :rolleyes:

LOL, so Lebron's team, your other MVP choice, was at +3 and his team's defense was the third best in the league. He had a top two player next to him and an all-star. Wow, maybe I underestimated Rose.

:roll: Yeah, and I'm sure Tony Parker also "shut down the elite" too back when the Spurs were great defensively. It's called playing on a great defensive team, elite players tend to struggle when they go against top defensive teams.
No he didn't. Players, elite and non elite abused Tony Parker and always did. I don't know where you got that from. Maybe you can tell me another player that played Deron Williams the way Rose did last year? When D Rose plays defense he is one of the better point guards at it. His work on Wade is the best I ever seen anybody play him when Wade was healthy.

Not true. Rose shot under 40% from the field 26 times, Chicago was 20-6 in those games. At the end of the game guess who was winning those games??? Rose's offense applied pressure on the defense and it eventually overwhelmed the opposing team. Ask any of the Bulls fans, here. If Rose got calls his shooting percentage is like it was the previous years, like 47 or 48 percent.

The problem is that this first statement simply isn't true. I've already explained why Dwight had more responsibility many times. I'm saying that Rose isn't the type of player who deserves MVP, he had a good season and Chicago won, but they're a great team as well.

Name me a great team that couldn't handle a trap?

Whatever, I'm done going back and forth with you. We do this every time the MVP argument comes up and I see the same crap from you every time. Ignorance towards Dwight, a simple-minded view on supporting casts and basketball, and giving Rose credit for everything, even things that he doesn't deserve.
:roll: No its your ignorance about D Rose, and guards in general. I don't dislike DH but he wasn't there during statement time. It fell apart for him and he wasn't up for the game only a few games after the all star break. The better the team, the more you saw DH fade out. And he was very much detached from the team. Who was the heart and soul of his team? Who played in every game like it mattered? Who's will power stands out more to you? Who had the better mental game and makes better decisions? Who was more integrated into his teams performance? Who had more aggressive smart energy at the end of games. Who are the two teams looking at and for when they are both tired? Who is going to execute at the end? I coach. Those things mean more than the simple stat game you hold on to. Elton Brand had great stats in '02 but he wasn't nowhere near Jason Kidd who would had those qualities I question about above.

You play the supporting cast argument for DH but you don't do it for Rose in comparison to Lebron, Wade etc. All three of your top three guys you use a different criteria for because in the end its just who you like. which is ok but just say it and stop acting like you are balanced :oldlol: . Your top guy Dirk, I don't even think he scored more than DH. Is light years away from DH on defense. He didn't win as many games in general or the fourth quarter as Rose either. But hey, he's your MVP. Whatever criteria used to make Dirk # one has to make Rose number 2 if you were consistent.

Pointguard

09-19-2011, 05:53 PM

When you type:

"When it mattered most"......how could that be about the regular season?
So now you got excuses for your inability to read too. Just say it was the eye glasses or something.

And even if it was about the regular season, Howard was simply the better player.

I know you are blinded by your love for an over-rated sg pretending to play pg, but maybe you should actually come back to reality. Some day you'll learn that how Rose plays the game directly impacts the performance of those "scrub" teammates you always blame. LOL

Riiiight, Rose's play help Booozer not understand the playbook. Maybe you and Booze go to the same eye doctor. But its not an eye thing its a head thing, probably air pockets between the ears.

Howard put up better overall numbers in the regular season and is literally 3 times the defensive force that Rose is. You keep coming back to the Bulls winning 10 more games like it should decide who the best player is. It doesn't. Anyone that watched the games this year knows that Howard reached a new level and was easily a better player now than he was in the past. Under your logic, 09 Howard was better than 11 Howard. And that is simply a joke.
Isn't Dirk your pick for MVP. So isn't this argument hypocritical? Or you just don't have a clue.

As I have said before, Rose deserved MVP based on the historical criteria of the award. However, Rose was not a better player than Howard last year and absolutely did not play better in the playoffs. Not only did Rose win quadruple as many games, DH was an absolute non factor. When he was practically at 50 and 20 they lost convincingly but when the Magic got DH out of the way (8/8) its the only game they dominated. DH was an anti-factor.

All you do is throw about a bunch of meaningless sports cliches that can't be proven at all to make excuses for your boy crumbling in the playoffs. All he had to do was play average and the Bulls could easily have won the title. Instead, he was very poor and he cost his team a chance to make the finals and win it all. The Bulls lost in the ECF because of Rose's inept pg play and efficiency. The Magic did not lose because Howard "wet the bed" like Rose did. They lost because Howard's supporting cast was awful...just awful. He and Wade canceled each other out. The Heat had Lebron and Bosh to take up the slack. Wade is like Galaticus, he eats up worlds in the playoffs and Rose stopped him. Something whole teams never did to a healthy Wade. But you are not capable of understanding this. Rose stopped one of the most unstoppable offensive forces in the game. Somebody that devoured a Dirk lead team, and Dirk is top 20 all time because of his offense alone. Rose's inexperience lead him to believe that he could still go all out offensively.

Once again, when Rose shot over 42.1% in the playoffs, the Bulls were undefeated. Thats all it takes when you have the luxury of the best rebounding/defensive team in the league behind you. Rose couldn't do it though....and even with his horrendous play in the ECF...his team still gave him leads late in the 4th and chances to win. What did he do? He turned it over on simple passes and couldn't throw it in the ocean the entire series in crunch time.

When Rose has shooters next to him he shoots better than Dirk does and he's a point guard. When he has to force the issue things go a little astray. Rose was spent and he had nobody stepping up around him. So he had to force things and did something no other team did with a healthy Wade. Wade doesn't play his position. At least Rose got tired going all out doing his job. As a leader you go down with your strengths and you take the responsibility. That's the way you should play. Rose won five games in crunch time in the playoffs. He got tired, he hadn't paced himself for something like this before. Its ok. Id much rather they be stepping stones rather than stepping down.

Yep...he played great when it "mattered most"....LOL

Again...are you high?

Rose in the last 4 games of the ECF:

21 points 30% fg.....down 6 entering the 4th
20 points 42% fg.....down 3 entering the 4th
23 points 30% fg.....up 5 entering the 4th
25 points 31% fg.....up 5 entering the 4th

The last two games he took an average of 28 shots....LOL...as a pg. And as if those numbers need to get worse, Rose shot something around 9% in the 4th qtr. Each game the Bulls lost was winnable and Rose really could not have played worse. Bad turnovers...horrible shot jacking....just about as bad as a player can play.
LOL, you say a lot of dumb nonsense but if you think Rose was playing as bad as a player can play you just know nothing about basketball which is more than I give you credit anyway. Inefficiency in the face courageously taking on responsibility is something I can appreciate because only Kobe and Wade are bold enough to go for wins like that. I can live with you thinking that Rose is suppose to be equal to Lebron and Wade in a series. That he isn't supposed to be tired because he takes on everything. That him stopping Wade is something he is supposed to do and shouldn't be a big deal for HIM! You even said they were supposed to win the championship!!! At least the measuring stick is higher for him than anybody else and that's the way he plays. You are quite pleased with DH's measuring stick which was to affect one playoff game.

If others don't step up Rose he doesn't look for excuses. He wants to take on more. You are used to a wimp scale or measuring stick and all of this seems to be above your head. You can't understand getting tired because you just did something no other person or team did. You can't understand it gets ugly before it gets better. You can't understand that it is better to be be inefficient than to look scared or not assertive. The Bulls weren't ready, they are a young team new system, new coach, new players, injuries and guys not used to each other but your scale was championship for them. Your undertones speak volumes cause there was only one star, one leader and one guy that was ready to take on the world on that team.

Bigsmoke

09-19-2011, 06:20 PM

DMAVS41

09-19-2011, 07:11 PM

So now you got excuses for your inability to read too. Just say it was the eye glasses or something.

Riiiight, Rose's play help Booozer not understand the playbook. Maybe you and Booze go to the same eye doctor. But its not an eye thing its a head thing, probably air pockets between the ears.

Isn't Dirk your pick for MVP. So isn't this argument hypocritical? Or you just don't have a clue.
Not only did Rose win quadruple as many games, DH was an absolute non factor. When he was practically at 50 and 20 they lost convincingly but when the Magic got DH out of the way (8/8) its the only game they dominated. DH was an anti-factor.

He and Wade canceled each other out. The Heat had Lebron and Bosh to take up the slack. Wade is like Galaticus, he eats up worlds in the playoffs and Rose stopped him. Something whole teams never did to a healthy Wade. But you are not capable of understanding this. Rose stopped one of the most unstoppable offensive forces in the game. Somebody that devoured a Dirk lead team, and Dirk is top 20 all time because of his offense alone. Rose's inexperience lead him to believe that he could still go all out offensively.

When Rose has shooters next to him he shoots better than Dirk does and he's a point guard. When he has to force the issue things go a little astray. Rose was spent and he had nobody stepping up around him. So he had to force things and did something no other team did with a healthy Wade. Wade doesn't play his position. At least Rose got tired going all out doing his job. As a leader you go down with your strengths and you take the responsibility. That's the way you should play. Rose won five games in crunch time in the playoffs. He got tired, he hadn't paced himself for something like this before. Its ok. Id much rather they be stepping stones rather than stepping down.

LOL, you say a lot of dumb nonsense but if you think Rose was playing as bad as a player can play you just know nothing about basketball which is more than I give you credit anyway. Inefficiency in the face courageously taking on responsibility is something I can appreciate because only Kobe and Wade are bold enough to go for wins like that. I can live with you thinking that Rose is suppose to be equal to Lebron and Wade in a series. That he isn't supposed to be tired because he takes on everything. That him stopping Wade is something he is supposed to do and shouldn't be a big deal for HIM! You even said they were supposed to win the championship!!! At least the measuring stick is higher for him than anybody else and that's the way he plays. You are quite pleased with DH's measuring stick which was to affect one playoff game.

If others don't step up Rose he doesn't look for excuses. He wants to take on more. You are used to a wimp scale or measuring stick and all of this seems to be above your head. You can't understand getting tired because you just did something no other person or team did. You can't understand it gets ugly before it gets better. You can't understand that it is better to be be inefficient than to look scared or not assertive. The Bulls weren't ready, they are a young team new system, new coach, new players, injuries and guys not used to each other but your scale was championship for them. Your undertones speak volumes cause there was only one star, one leader and one guy that was ready to take on the world on that team.

Actually Rose was my choice for MVP....LOL

But of course you can't grasp the difference between MVP and best player. Does anyone in their right mind think Steve Nash was a better player than Kobe in 06? Of course not, but Nash was the better choice for MVP based on the history of the award.

This isn't about Dirk, but if you want to make it about Dirk...thats fine. The difference between Dirk and Rose right now is that Dirk's style of play allows his teammates to flourish. Dirk is not ball dominant, he doesn't shot jack, he's efficient, and he's often doubled without the ball. Oh, and Dirk is a far better late game player than your boy Rose. Far better. Did you see how Dirk played late in close games against the Heat compared to Rose? Yea, that was the difference in the series. You see how Dirk destroyed both Wade and Lebron late? A little different than being destroyed and shooting 9% and failing to create scoring opportunities.

Do you not understand simple logic? Take Rose off the Bulls and their defense/rebounding remains tops in the league. Take Howard off the Magic and their defense/rebounding falls off dramatically. You keep trying to credit Rose with doing something he's not doing. He's not doing anything to make them a great defensive team or a great rebounding team...nothing. I'm not saying he has to, I'm just saying that was the main reason for their success. Am I supposed to jump up and down because a player put up 25/8/4 and shot less than 45% from the field and took 20 shots a game? Its a very good year from a very good player. Is it worth the level of praise you are giving Rose? No way.

Lets just pretend that Boozer is a scrub and Deng isn't a proven player capable of scoring 17 plus and playing great defense. Noah is a scrub. All the Bulls were. Its just Rose out there alone.....LOL

Maybe, just maybe...the offense struggled at times because Rose hasn't learned to play pg yet. He's young. He's still learning. And when he does learn to create better for others and make smarter decisions...then he'll be worthy of the praise you give him.

He's not a better player than Howard. He could be some day, but he's not there yet. You keep using the Bulls winning 10 more games than the Magic as if it should determine the debate. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

It doesn't matter if Wade and Rose canceled each other out. Wade played the worst playoffs series of his career...and if you are trying to credit that to Rose then you are way too biased to even have a conversation with. Do you understand team defense at all? I guess I should credit Dirk with the fact that Lebron/Kobe/LA/Gasol/Durant/Westbrook/Bosh all struggled against the Mavs. It was all Dirk...right?

Not to mention we just saw Westbrook pretty much do the exact same stuff Rose did. 22/8/5 on similar efficiency. You give Westbrook 3 more shots a game and 3 more minutes a game and his numbers would be probably exactly the same or better than Rose's. Is Westbrook better than Howard also? If not, what makes Rose so much better than Westbrook?

Clippersfan86

09-19-2011, 07:17 PM

SCdac

09-19-2011, 07:59 PM

48 wins?

Who's going to close the games out? Boozer and Noah both missed almost half the season and you're telling me the Bulls would win 48?

Yeah, I don't see this line up (below) winning much in the regular season, with or without Noah. 48 wins, let alone 50+, is a lofty guess. And doesn't take into account that defense would key-in on Deng every game.

C: Joakim Noah / Kurt Thomas (38 years old)
PF: Taj Gibson
SF: Luol Deng
SG: Keith Bogans
PG: CJ Watson

Derrick Rose and the Bulls managed to beat the Championship Mavericks in both regular season meetings , once without both Boozer/Noah at all, and once without Boozer... For whatever reason, people are definitely underrating Rose's value. He scored more for the Bulls, than Korver, Bogans, Watson, and Brewer combined. People tell themselves "oh, I see how he's an MVP player" but it's almost as if they don't believe what they're saying. Sure, there were other candidates... but there's other candidates every year. It doesn't take away the validity of choosing Rose simply because there are other candidates who fit a more traditional mold.

Ikill

09-19-2011, 08:09 PM

Pointguard

09-19-2011, 11:50 PM

Actually Rose was my choice for MVP....LOL

But of course you can't grasp the difference between MVP and best player. Does anyone in their right mind think Steve Nash was a better player than Kobe in 06? Of course not, but Nash was the better choice for MVP based on the history of the award.

This isn't about Dirk, but if you want to make it about Dirk...thats fine. The difference between Dirk and Rose right now is that Dirk's style of play allows his teammates to flourish. Dirk is not ball dominant, he doesn't shot jack, he's efficient, and he's often doubled without the ball. Oh, and Dirk is a far better late game player than your boy Rose. Far better. Did you see how Dirk played late in close games against the Heat compared to Rose? Yea, that was the difference in the series. You see how Dirk destroyed both Wade and Lebron late? A little different than being destroyed and shooting 9% and failing to create scoring opportunities.

LOL, some things are age related. If Dirk didn't get it by now he would never get it. In no profession on earth do you by pass 10 years of experience. Once again, the Rose measuring stick has no bounds. Dirk at 22 has no heart, he wasn't ready for leadership, played smaller than Rose and shot a whole lot worse. Their career percentage numbers are barely a point apart now and Dirk is a much taller guy that gets calls. But that's ok. To me its a lot fairer to compare Dirk's career year against a guy two years removed from being a teenager then it is to make the comparison at the same age or experience.

If Wade is healthy he outplays Dirk. If Lebron had dressed himself up as the opponent one series earlier Chicago beats the Heat too. If Chicago had two teams go on vacation when they played them they would have been a lot fresher.

Do you not understand simple logic? Take Rose off the Bulls and their defense/rebounding remains tops in the league. Take Howard off the Magic and their defense/rebounding falls off dramatically. You keep trying to credit Rose with doing something he's not doing. He's not doing anything to make them a great defensive team or a great rebounding team...nothing.
Rose is a very good rebounding pointguard and even you know that when defensively he steps it up, he's as good as anybody at his position. You keep trying to hypnotize yourself to go the other way. Rose is the only pointguard that can guard a top notch shooting guard like Wade. Against the elite point guards he is the elite defender. What is hard here to understand? You really believe that Derrick Rose doesn't affect offensive rebounding numbers??? A team that didn't have its two rebounders for much the season?

D Rose makes up an inordinate amount of decisions of the Bulls offense. To act like he wasn't core or central to their winning ways is just your lack of knowledge about the game.

I'm not saying he has to, I'm just saying that was the main reason for their success. Am I supposed to jump up and down because a player put up 25/8/4 and shot less than 45% from the field and took 20 shots a game? Its a very good year from a very good player. Is it worth the level of praise you are giving Rose? No way.
So then you can tell me the last time a young team, without any other allstars, their 2nd and third best players out for 60 games, few vets, few creators or shooters, new coach, new system had the best record in the league??? And they took on the persona of their leader, disciplined, calm yet aggressive, tenacious, strong, cohesive and ready for every game. You keep acting like I'm hyping it SO SHOW ME where I'm wrong.

Lets just pretend that Boozer is a scrub and Deng isn't a proven player capable of scoring 17 plus and playing great defense. Noah is a scrub. All the Bulls were. Its just Rose out there alone.....LOL

Maybe, just maybe...the offense struggled at times because Rose hasn't learned to play pg yet. He's young. He's still learning. And when he does learn to create better for others and make smarter decisions...then he'll be worthy of the praise you give him.
LOL, Rose's standard and measuring stick again. Rose/Deng is expected not just to win more than Lebron/Wade/Bosh, Kobe/Bynum/Gasol, Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka, KG/Shaq/Pierce/Allen with a young team Rose is expected to do more :roll: I don't have to up him. You do it every chance you get. He won more with less talent. He won more while having much more of the burden on offense than those guys.

He's not a better player than Howard. He could be some day, but he's not there yet. You keep using the Bulls winning 10 more games than the Magic as if it should determine the debate. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
I never said he was a better player. However, Rose was a better leader, his team was more reflective of him, he was more at the heart and soul of his team. He played better later in the year. He got up for bigger games a lot better. His tenacity and aggression was also definitely better. He finished games and the season a lot better.

Orlando played weak late in the year and Atlanta fed off of that, despite Orlando having one of the easiest schedules of playoff teams. Tell me if I'm wrong but to me this stuff is obvious. Dwight was detached from his team. They played much better in the playoffs with Dwight out of the way. His 29 minute 8 point 8 rebound game and 1 block was by far their best game in the playoffs. His near 50/20 game insignificant. You can only be detached from your team to have that type of reverse affect on your team. You and Shaq Attack keep saying he means so much more to the offense and defense but this wasn't true in the playoffs.

It doesn't matter if Wade and Rose canceled each other out. Wade played the worst playoffs series of his career...and if you are trying to credit that to Rose then you are way too biased to even have a conversation with.

Once again. The Rose standard! This really suggest that he's super human. At 22 Rose can't have a bad playoff series? But other great players can! Its hilarious, in your subconscious mind you have Rose as some type of God and you don't know it. Rose played his worst playoffs series ever too but he's held to a different standard.

Do you understand team defense at all? I guess I should credit Dirk with the fact that Lebron/Kobe/LA/Gasol/Durant/Westbrook/Bosh all struggled against the Mavs. It was all Dirk...right? Lebron and Gasol thought they were Mavericks. Really, you believe Dirk guarded Kobe, Westbrook and Durant??? Rose played great one on one defense. And no other team had that success. When Rose wasn't on him, Wade came off and scored so it wasn't like he was off. Sorry, nice try. Now Rose was just off regardless. But he was indeed tired cause he didn't know how to pace himself.

Not to mention we just saw Westbrook pretty much do the exact same stuff Rose did. 22/8/5 on similar efficiency. You give Westbrook 3 more shots a game and 3 more minutes a game and his numbers would be probably exactly the same or better than Rose's. Is Westbrook better than Howard also? If not, what makes Rose so much better than Westbrook?

I don't know what this means or what you are going for. I never compared stats. Westbrook was second fiddle. Not the leader of his team nor was his team going thru injuries or looking to him to lead. A totally different example.

Eat Like A Bosh

09-19-2011, 11:55 PM

Isn't it always a joke? :oldlol:

nathanjizzle

09-20-2011, 12:04 AM

why do you idiots keep going back to this argument?

stats against the top 6 teams in the nba for 2010-2011 reg season

rose 28 points 7 assist (7-4)
lebron 25.5 points 7 assist (3-8)

-rose produces more then his own season average when playing real competition and is winning games
-lebron produces less then his own season average when playing real competition and is losing games

why is lebron even in the discussion?

nathanjizzle

09-20-2011, 12:11 AM

Not to mention we just saw Westbrook pretty much do the exact same stuff Rose did. 22/8/5 on similar efficiency. You give Westbrook 3 more shots a game and 3 more minutes a game and his numbers would be probably exactly the same or better than Rose's. Is Westbrook better than Howard also? If not, what makes Rose so much better than Westbrook?

its sorry that you guys have to Guess how good rose is because you guys dont watch games. and claim he the same player as westbrook:roll: :roll:
i did the same caculations with rose and westbrook against the top 6 teams in the nba and it wasnt even close with westbrook, he had like 19 points and 5 assists.

Pointguard

09-20-2011, 12:28 AM

Yeah, I don't see this line up (below) winning much in the regular season, with or without Noah. 48 wins, let alone 50+, is a lofty guess. And doesn't take into account that defense would key-in on Deng every game.

C: Joakim Noah / Kurt Thomas (38 years old)
PF: Taj Gibson
SF: Luol Deng
SG: Keith Bogans
PG: CJ Watson

Derrick Rose and the Bulls managed to beat the Championship Mavericks in both regular season meetings , once without both Boozer/Noah at all, and once without Boozer... For whatever reason, people are definitely underrating Rose's value. He scored more for the Bulls, than Korver, Bogans, Watson, and Brewer combined. People tell themselves "oh, I see how he's an MVP player" but it's almost as if they don't believe what they're saying. Sure, there were other candidates... but there's other candidates every year. It doesn't take away the validity of choosing Rose simply because there are other candidates who fit a more traditional mold.
Deng had one game of 30 or more points and nine games above 25. And has never shown the ability to be explosive. He's very consistent and hangs out between 15 and 19 ppg for five or six years now. Booze is good for 18 or 19 a game if he knows the plays. So with defenses going at them. They are at 32 ppg with Noah right about 10 more as his game was way off last year. Then it gets pretty desperate. Taj and Korver are at six. But we can bump them to nine.

Milwaukees big three are about exactly the same Jennings 16, Salmon 14 and 12 Bogut. But Milwaukee next three are all above 11ppg. Magette, Delfino and Gooden. With Isasova right there at 10 with CDR, Boykins, Dooling and Mubute all averaging 7.

Jennings, Salmons, Magette can all create and do something extra. On the Bulls they don't have that luxury as both Booze and Deng can't finish off games. But they can rebound better. The bulls are right there in the 35 win area with Milwaukee.

Pointguard

09-20-2011, 12:30 AM

its sorry that you guys have to Guess how good rose is because you guys dont watch games. and claim he the same player as westbrook:roll: :roll:
i did the same caculations with rose and westbrook against the top 6 teams in the nba and it wasnt even close with westbrook, he had like 19 points and 5 assists.

They don't watch the games. They read the boxscores and say I'm being cliche' because I understand things I see in the games.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 12:50 AM

LOL, some things are age related. If Dirk didn't get it by now he would never get it. In no profession on earth do you by pass 10 years of experience. Once again, the Rose measuring stick has no bounds. Dirk at 22 has no heart, he wasn't ready for leadership, played smaller than Rose and shot a whole lot worse. Their career percentage numbers are barely a point apart now and Dirk is a much taller guy that gets calls. But that's ok. To me its a lot fairer to compare Dirk's career year against a guy two years removed from being a teenager then it is to make the comparison at the same age or experience.

If Wade is healthy he outplays Dirk. If Lebron had dressed himself up as the opponent one series earlier Chicago beats the Heat too. If Chicago had two teams go on vacation when they played them they would have been a lot fresher.

Rose is a very good rebounding pointguard and even you know that when defensively he steps it up, he's as good as anybody at his position. You keep trying to hypnotize yourself to go the other way. Rose is the only pointguard that can guard a top notch shooting guard like Wade. Against the elite point guards he is the elite defender. What is hard here to understand? You really believe that Derrick Rose doesn't affect offensive rebounding numbers??? A team that didn't have its two rebounders for much the season?

D Rose makes up an inordinate amount of decisions of the Bulls offense. To act like he wasn't core or central to their winning ways is just your lack of knowledge about the game.

So then you can tell me the last time a young team, without any other allstars, their 2nd and third best players out for 60 games, few vets, few creators or shooters, new coach, new system had the best record in the league??? And they took on the persona of their leader, disciplined, calm yet aggressive, tenacious, strong, cohesive and ready for every game. You keep acting like I'm hyping it SO SHOW ME where I'm wrong.

LOL, Rose's standard and measuring stick again. Rose/Deng is expected not just to win more than Lebron/Wade/Bosh, Kobe/Bynum/Gasol, Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka, KG/Shaq/Pierce/Allen with a young team Rose is expected to do more :roll: I don't have to up him. You do it every chance you get. He won more with less talent. He won more while having much more of the burden on offense than those guys.

I never said he was a better player. However, Rose was a better leader, his team was more reflective of him, he was more at the heart and soul of his team. He played better later in the year. He got up for bigger games a lot better. His tenacity and aggression was also definitely better. He finished games and the season a lot better.

Orlando played weak late in the year and Atlanta fed off of that, despite Orlando having one of the easiest schedules of playoff teams. Tell me if I'm wrong but to me this stuff is obvious. Dwight was detached from his team. They played much better in the playoffs with Dwight out of the way. His 29 minute 8 point 8 rebound game and 1 block was by far their best game in the playoffs. His near 50/20 game insignificant. You can only be detached from your team to have that type of reverse affect on your team. You and Shaq Attack keep saying he means so much more to the offense and defense but this wasn't true in the playoffs.

Once again. The Rose standard! This really suggest that he's super human. At 22 Rose can't have a bad playoff series? But other great players can! Its hilarious, in your subconscious mind you have Rose as some type of God and you don't know it. Rose played his worst playoffs series ever too but he's held to a different standard. Lebron and Gasol thought they were Mavericks. Really, you believe Dirk guarded Kobe, Westbrook and Durant??? Rose played great one on one defense. And no other team had that success. When Rose wasn't on him, Wade came off and scored so it wasn't like he was off. Sorry, nice try. Now Rose was just off regardless. But he was indeed tired cause he didn't know how to pace himself.

I don't know what this means or what you are going for. I never compared stats. Westbrook was second fiddle. Not the leader of his team nor was his team going thru injuries or looking to him to lead. A totally different example.

How many times have we been over this? Now age is a factor? What? All that is...is you making excuses as to why Rose isn't as good as other players.

If we a grading on an age scale then my opinion would be different. But we aren't. Rose being younger than Howard and Dirk...etc....that doesn't make him better. In fact, you are admitting that Dirk is better now and you are just making excuses for Rose.

Sorry, but this is not a Rose at age 22 vs the rest of the league at 22 discussion. This is a 2011 discussion about the best players....just because Rose is young doesn't make him better. In fact, it makes him worse as you point out.

I'm done with this because neither one of us are going to budge. Doesn't mean I'm right or anything....good debate...we just disagree.

Players I think are for sure better than Rose right now:

1. Dirk
2. Wade
3. Howard
4. Lebron
5. Kobe

After that it becomes debatable for me. Melo/Paul/Williams/Durant....I'd probably take all of them over Rose. Just my opinion though.

Edit:

My standard for Rose is not higher. It is you creating these high standards by saying he's better a player than he actually is. You sound exactly like Kobe fans when Kobe was in his 3rd/4th year. They'd say he's one of the best players in the league and then turn around and make excuses for him based on age when it was clear he wasn't yet one of the best players. All I have said is that Rose, in my opinion, is not on Howard's level as a player. In fact, I don't think Rose is yet a top 7 player in the game. Is he a great player at his age? Of course. Is his potential through the roof? Yep. Could he go down as one of the 25 best players of all time? You bet.

I don't know what more you want me to say. If we are going to start changing the discussion and make it about what Rose did based on his age....my take would be different like I have told you many times before. But I don't see the relevance of age/experience in a discussion about who the best players are in the game right now. Its not like Rose gets extra points in a game for being under the age of 25 or something. So I still can't see the relevance.

So basically you want it both ways. You want to be able to claim Rose is better than Howard and one of the truly best players in the game...but then turn around and give him a free pass for completely crumbling in the ECF and giving his team no chance to win. Again, the Bulls lost that series because Rose was awful. He choked. Plain and simple. 4 straight miserable 4th qtr performances with everything on the line. He doesn't get a pass from me on that from me in this discussion. You can come up with as many excuses as you want, but it doesn't change reality. And the reality is that Rose has a long ways to go to be actually as good as you make him out to be.

knicksman

09-20-2011, 06:44 AM

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 12:13 PM

then how come he shoots 30% in the playoffs

Insert comment about Rose playing with the worst supporting cast ever.

SCdac

09-20-2011, 12:17 PM

then how come he shoots 30% in the playoffs

Even better (ie. maybe more deserving) MVP's have played even worse in the playoffs in their MVP year (Dirk, 2007)... It happens to the best of them. :confusedshrug:

Not that hard to comprehend that it's a regular season award.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 12:19 PM

Even better (ie. maybe more deserving) MVP's have played even worse in the playoffs in their MVP year (Dirk, 2007)... It happens to the best of them. :confusedshrug:

Not that hard to comprehend that it's a regular season award.

And I can speak for myself and say that I had Rose as MVP all season long and he was absolutely deserving of the award. Anyone saying otherwise is way off in my opinion.

However, there is a huge difference between MVP and being the best player. You brought up Dirk. Nobody would claim Dirk was the best player in 07 after what he did in the playoffs.

Just like nobody should claim Rose is the best player for last year.

SCdac

09-20-2011, 12:28 PM

And I can speak for myself and say that I had Rose as MVP all season long and he was absolutely deserving of the award.

Why is he "absolutely deserving" of the award anyways?

However, there is a huge difference between MVP and being the best player. You brought up Dirk. Nobody would claim Dirk was the best player in 07 after what he did in the playoffs.

Just like nobody should claim Rose is the best player for last year.

If we're taking into account the whole season... that's one thing... But we're not. We're talking about MVP voting.

Personally, I don't mind that it's a regular season award. 82 games is a long stretch of games for any professional sport, why not award the best player who helped his team become great and was obviously a great leader (which Rose was, maybe not at an all-time high level... but he was). The playoffs are a different animal altogether.

It's not like Howard (which the OP is about) had an exceptional post-season. Not even close to exceptional really. So it seems like a moot point.

People are going hard on Rose for the exact same things that happened to their favorite players (failing in the playoffs in his MVP season).

"Best player" is such a subjective term, which is why it's so funny to see people speak in absolutes on ISH. I think what OP means is "best big man on a team that's probably not great without him". Doesn't necessarily matter who it is, how he played, his demeanor, how his season went down and how he reacted to late-season pressure, etc. Just matters that he's got a X amount of points, X amount of rebounds, etc, etc.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 12:31 PM

Why is he "absolutely deserving" of the award anyways?

If we're taking into account the whole season... that's one thing... But we're not. We're talking about MVP voting.

Personally, I don't mind that it's a regular season award. 82 games is a long stretch of games for any professional sport, why not award the best player who helped his team become great and was obviously a great leader (which Rose was, maybe not at an all-time high level... but he was). The playoffs are a different animal altogether.

It's not like Howard (which the OP is about) had an exceptional post-season. Not even close to exceptional really. So it seems like a moot point.

People are going hard on Rose for the exact same things that happened to their favorite players (failing in the playoffs in his MVP season).

"Best player" is such a subjective term, which is why it's so funny to see people speak in absolutes on ISH. I think what OP means is "best big man on a team that's probably not great without him". Doesn't necessarily matter who it is, how he played, his demeanor, how his season went down and how he reacted to late-season pressure, etc. Just matters that he's got a X amount of points, X amount of rebounds, etc, etc.

I've been having a different discussion...not really all that related to the OP.

Going hard on Rose? That is what happens when people/fans claim he's better than he is.

Of course you are talking about Dirk...I can assure you I would not claim Dirk was the best player in 07. But even then its a different example because Dirk was arguably the best regular season player in 07. I don't think that was the case with Rose. Like I said, I don't think Rose is a top 7 player in the league.

SCdac

09-20-2011, 12:36 PM

Pointguard

09-20-2011, 01:04 PM

How many times have we been over this? Now age is a factor? What? All that is...is you making excuses as to why Rose isn't as good as other players.

If we a grading on an age scale then my opinion would be different. But we aren't. Rose being younger than Howard and Dirk...etc....that doesn't make him better. In fact, you are admitting that Dirk is better now and you are just making excuses for Rose.

Sorry, but this is not a Rose at age 22 vs the rest of the league at 22 discussion. This is a 2011 discussion about the best players....just because Rose is young doesn't make him better. In fact, it makes him worse as you point out.

I'm done with this because neither one of us are going to budge. Doesn't mean I'm right or anything....good debate...we just disagree.

Players I think are for sure better than Rose right now:

1. Dirk
2. Wade
3. Howard
4. Lebron
5. Kobe

After that it becomes debatable for me. Melo/Paul/Williams/Durant....I'd probably take all of them over Rose. Just my opinion though.

I have no problem with somebody that takes Dirk over Rose. It's impossible to not see their careers in perspective, tho. Up and coming means you don't have seasoning, experience and still have a lot of shaping and growing to do. In your last stage you should have peaked and rely on wisdom more than energy. If a guy in his last stage is being compared to a guy in his beginning stage it truely suggest the younger guy is the tide that is coming in. The reality is they operate and only operate in this context. As Rose gains experience, the difference will be more obvious. If Dirk gained more energy then he would be more favored. Dirk is most like Rose in that he is the lone star on the team.

What is your criteria for having Dirk so high? He certainly isn't on the level of Durant, Melo, Kobe, Wade, or Lebron scoring wise - he isn't as resourceful or prolific. He isn't on their level in any other tangible way cept rebounding which he does a little below average at his position. They all pass, steal, penetrate, more efficient from the floor and much better defenders.

With your list above you can't factor in wins or ability to be a big factor in wins because you got like ten guys above Rose. Cause if you bring up wins Rose totally detonates your garbage list above. Out of all the experience in the 9 guys you mentioned, only three years out of about 70 possible years between the guys you listed above did any player win 62 or more games which Rose did in his third year. Dirk once in his 13 years (sobeit that Josh Howard took over the leading scoring duties in the playoffs that year) with Kobe and Lebron once (Kobe did it once before with Shaq but Kobe wasn't even in contention of being the man at that time). And neither of those three years did Kobe, Lebron and Dirk come close to facing the challenges that Rose had this year.

Once again the Rose measure or scale is further proof of your hidden belief that he is a diety. Rose in three years can handle your list of guys 70 years of experience. And in at least 30 of those years the expectations were higher than the Bulls team this year. The Rose scale now, obviously suggest that his scale in three years is supposed to be better than the elite's best in 70 concurrent years of experience.

Now that we got winning and impact to influence wins out of the way, what claims do you have for Dirk? Be careful because Dirk and Rose have more similar strengths than the others.

Pointguard

09-20-2011, 01:34 PM

I've been having a different discussion...not really all that related to the OP.

Going hard on Rose? That is what happens when people/fans claim he's better than he is.

Of course you are talking about Dirk...I can assure you I would not claim Dirk was the best player in 07. But even then its a different example because Dirk was arguably the best regular season player in 07. I don't think that was the case with Rose. Like I said, I don't think Rose is a top 7 player in the league.

The funny thing is that we have been stating things that are obvious - nobody is upping him above obvious observations. Rose's leadership was stellar. His composure while getting fouled and not complaining is among the best we've seen. He went thru a lot this year and came off big in the win department. No other team was as consistent after the first month despite everything being new, big injuries and the second and third best guys having down years. Rose was up for every game this year and that was rare this year. I seen all of the other big stars take games off despite not seeing them half as much - biggest culprits on your list was Chris Paul, Mello, D Will, Durant and Dwight Howard. Wade and Lebon had a considerable amount of games in confusion. At least when you give your team energy your team can respond to it. Rose was up for every fourth quarter.

It's amazing that yall can't see this and try to say I'm being cliche and overstating Rose. If its not a stat yall have problems understanding the game. I would expect that from newbies but not yall. Once again if I'm wrong point out the statement you have a problem with. What I say I usually provide examples. Chances are that I have already taught the concept to a player.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 01:39 PM

I don't care about your personal rankings... Let me rephrase, I don't put any stock into your personal rankings. The subjectivity is strong, and that's fine. I respect your opinion, think it's interesting, but don't put much value into it.

You were talking like Rose deserved the award in the last post before this...

But you won't explain why he absolutely deserved it.

Why did he deserve the award?

I don't think he was the runaway choice for MVP - BUT, I do think it was a good choice and Rose played like an MVP.

Why did Rose deserve it? Simple. He met the historical criteria better than anyone. His level of play jumped up from the year before, his team exceeded expectations, his team had a top 4 record, he was new, he was the anti-lebron so to speak in terms of narrative/story.

His competition was weak for MVP as well. While Howard played great, his team did not meet/exceed expectations. Dirk got hurt and that pretty much ended his chances. Lebron was still suffering from the backlash...and wade/lebron cancel each other out. Westbrook improved so much that it hurt Durant's chances.

I thought Rose was the clear choice based on the standard. I do think Dirk was deserving as well based on the standard, but beating the "new guy" if its close is almost impossible....and Dirk still had a "stigma" from 07 when he won.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 01:45 PM

I have no problem with somebody that takes Dirk over Rose. It's impossible to not see their careers in perspective, tho. Up and coming means you don't have seasoning, experience and still have a lot of shaping and growing to do. In your last stage you should have peaked and rely on wisdom more than energy. If a guy in his last stage is being compared to a guy in his beginning stage it truely suggest the younger guy is the tide that is coming in. The reality is they operate and only operate in this context. As Rose gains experience, the difference will be more obvious. If Dirk gained more energy then he would be more favored. Dirk is most like Rose in that he is the lone star on the team.

What is your criteria for having Dirk so high? He certainly isn't on the level of Durant, Melo, Kobe, Wade, or Lebron scoring wise - he isn't as resourceful or prolific. He isn't on their level in any other tangible way cept rebounding which he does a little below average at his position. They all pass, steal, penetrate, more efficient from the floor and much better defenders.

With your list above you can't factor in wins or ability to be a big factor in wins because you got like ten guys above Rose. Cause if you bring up wins Rose totally detonates your garbage list above. Out of all the experience in the 9 guys you mentioned, only three years out of about 70 possible years between the guys you listed above did any player win 62 or more games which Rose did in his third year. Dirk once in his 13 years (sobeit that Josh Howard took over the leading scoring duties in the playoffs that year) with Kobe and Lebron once (Kobe did it once before with Shaq but Kobe wasn't even in contention of being the man at that time). And neither of those three years did Kobe, Lebron and Dirk come close to facing the challenges that Rose had this year.

Once again the Rose measure or scale is further proof of your hidden belief that he is a diety. Rose in three years can handle your list of guys 70 years of experience. And in at least 30 of those years the expectations were higher than the Bulls team this year. The Rose scale now, obviously suggest that his scale in three years is supposed to be better than the elite's best in 70 years of experience.

Now that we got winning and impact to influence wins out of the way, what claims do you have for Dirk? Be careful because Dirk and Rose have more similar strengths than the others.

I'm one of those guys that judges players on how well they play. Winning and losing can be an important part of that at times...and sometimes its not.

Its hard for me to credit Rose to the extent you do with wins simply because he makes no impact on the two main strengths of his team. Its just a difference of opinion.

But whatever, that is my point. You think its "garbage" to rank guys like Paul/Williams/Kobe/Durant...etc over Rose. I don't. I think those guys are simply better players. Put Paul on the Bulls and I think they would have made the Finals or at least forced a game 7. Paul is one of the best late game players in the league. He's a far better game manager and passer. He's a better defender as well.

The fact that you think its "garbage" to say Paul is a better player than Rose tells me all I need to know.

You can't go around acting like Rose has every intangible in the book and the rest of these players have none for starters. And furthermore, Rose was a terrible leader late in the ECF...just terrible. He was selfish. He made dumb mistakes. He froze out teammates....he settled for way too many long jumpers. At some point you have to produce. You can't just wipe all those tangible things away because YOU think Rose wants it more than another guy.

And as far as Rose and Dirk. Its not even remotely close. Dirk's style allows his teammates to flourish. Rose's style inhibits their play. You will realize this some day. Dirk is far more efficient and demands a ton of defensive attention even without the ball.

And the kicker of course is late game play. One guy is one of the best of this generation and one of the best ever while one still has much to learn in terms of late game play. And that learning curve is made even more apparent as Rose is a pg and everything he does impacts the game in a huge way. Rose still can't make simple passes and he hasn't learned to manage a game well at all. As evidenced by his complete collapse in the ECF with the games on the line.

But I don't expect you to understand this. You said Rose played his best when it "mattered most".....what a joke of a statement. Come back to reality. He played his absolute worst when it "mattered most"....

pegasus

09-20-2011, 01:52 PM

Sakkreth

09-20-2011, 02:09 PM

Dwight Howard was clear cut MVP last season, but he wasn't best player. Is there anything else to discuss on this topic ? I think that no.

SCdac

09-20-2011, 02:37 PM

Why did Rose deserve it? Simple. He met the historical criteria better than anyone. His level of play jumped up from the year before, his team exceeded expectations, his team had a top 4 record, he was new, he was the anti-lebron so to speak in terms of narrative/story.

His competition was weak for MVP as well. While Howard played great, his team did not meet/exceed expectations. Dirk got hurt and that pretty much ended his chances. Lebron was still suffering from the backlash...and wade/lebron cancel each other out. Westbrook improved so much that it hurt Durant's chances.

I thought Rose was the clear choice based on the standard. I do think Dirk was deserving as well based on the standard, but beating the "new guy" if its close is almost impossible....and Dirk still had a "stigma" from 07 when he won.

Keep in mind, Rose and the Bulls got the better of the Mavs in both meetings last season - both games without Boozer, one without Noah. Rose played well AGAINST the competition, however weak it was.. (and I agree it wasn't the strongest year for stand out MVP's, I was echoing that all season myself). Personally, I would have given the award to Lebron or Dirk before Howard, but it has to do with team success and that relationship the leader has with his squad and how meaningful the numbers are or aren't. Judging from another post, you make it sound like Rose was basically gifted the award, was a non-factor in terms of how Bulls won games, that simplified and naive view of his skills/effect on the Bulls is all I need to hear. It's probably an opinion largely based on stats, which is usually telling (stats seem to be a troll's best weapon). It's easy to over-analyze anything, and make anything sound the way you want it to. It's harder to accept what's actually happening and the fact that it's legitimate. Rose' impact on the bulls is being under valued, and with that I'll agree to disagree.

Pointguard

09-20-2011, 02:42 PM

I'm one of those guys that judges players on how well they play. Winning and losing can be an important part of that at times...and sometimes its not.

Its hard for me to credit Rose to the extent you do with wins simply because he makes no impact on the two main strengths of his team. Its just a difference of opinion.

But whatever, that is my point. You think its "garbage" to rank guys like Paul/Williams/Kobe/Durant...etc over Rose. I don't. I think those guys are simply better players. Put Paul on the Bulls and I think they would have made the Finals or at least forced a game 7. Paul is one of the best late game players in the league. He's a far better game manager and passer. He's a better defender as well.
I like Paul's game better than I do Rose's. But no way would any body watching Bulls games would think like you do. Rose forces the issue, he shoves the game down your throat. Chris never does. Chris also takes games off. The Bulls operate by putting pressure on the opponent and Chris is more of a flow guy. They get the the third seed and loose in the second round. Chris also doesn't seem down for the grind out East - he complains a lot about fouls out West. If healthy I have him top five out West. No way could he have had the Rose year with that team.

The fact that you think its "garbage" to say Paul is a better player than Rose tells me all I need to know.
:roll: I said your list was garbage, not Paul - learn to read first before you make judgments on what you don't know.

You can't go around acting like Rose has every intangible in the book and the rest of these players have none for starters. And furthermore, Rose was a terrible leader late in the ECF...just terrible. He was selfish. He made dumb mistakes. He froze out teammates....he settled for way too many long jumpers. At some point you have to produce. You can't just wipe all those tangible things away because YOU think Rose wants it more than another guy.
Fatigue! but his coach told him to play thru it as it would make him a better player this year. Thibes needed to see what he has around Rose as well. Thibes calls the plays by the way - not Rose. It was Thibe's design to play that way - Rose isn't experienced enough to call off his calls just yet.

I named a few intangibles - far from all.

And as far as Rose and Dirk. Its not even remotely close. Dirk's style allows his teammates to flourish. Rose's style inhibits their play. You will realize this some day. Dirk is far more efficient and demands a ton of defensive attention even without the ball.

As a player in his twilight he is supposed to be this way. He's had 10 teams built around him. Thibes held 20 minute practices for offense for most of the year. That's why Rose offense was just as important as the good defense was to the team.

And the kicker of course is late game play. One guy is one of the best of this generation and one of the best ever while one still has much to learn in terms of late game play. And that learning curve is made even more apparent as Rose is a pg and everything he does impacts the game in a huge way. Rose still can't make simple passes and he hasn't learned to manage a game well at all. As evidenced by his complete collapse in the ECF with the games on the line.

LOL, the Rose scale again. Rose executed far more wins than any other player because he handles much more of the offense than the other stars do. But his scale is that he must be more than just better than the others. Its hilarious. Rose got tired in the ECF - an absolutely human thing to do after you play your heart out. Stuff like that happens - LOL stop trying to act like that was the whole year. Rose went down having played with all his heart and soul, with his courage working with him. I can name a lot of players who got tired without their courage and shrinked from being the man. Different scale tho for Rose.

But I don't expect you to understand this. You said Rose played his best when it "mattered most".....what a joke of a statement. Come back to reality. He played his absolute worst when it "mattered most"....

LOL, so now you acting like you don't know the context in which that was said. We weren't talking about the post season. If you can't keep up, say slow down man. This is the third time I called out your reading skills in three straight post. AND YOU are questioning somebody else's reality. Grow up, catch up and learn to read.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 02:55 PM

I like Paul's game better than I do Rose's. But no way would any body watching Bulls games would think like you do. Rose forces the issue, he shoves the game down your throat. Chris never does. Chris also takes games off. The Bulls operate by putting pressure on the opponent and Chris is more of a flow guy. They get the the third seed and loose in the second round. Chris also doesn't seem down for the grind out East - he complains a lot about fouls out West. If healthy I have him top five out West. No way could he have had the Rose year with that team.

:roll: I said your list was garbage, not Paul - learn to read first before you make judgments on what you don't know.
Fatigue! but his coach told him to play thru it as it would make him a better player this year. Thibes needed to see what he has around Rose as well. Thibes calls the plays by the way - not Rose. It was Thibe's design to play that way - Rose isn't experienced enough to call off his calls just yet.

I named a few intangibles - far from all.

As a player in his twilight he is supposed to be this way. He's had 10 teams built around him. Thibes held 20 minute practices for offense for most of the year. That's why Rose offense was just as important as the good defense was to the team.

LOL, the Rose scale again. Rose executed far more wins than any other player because he handles much more of the offense than the other stars do. But his scale is that he must be more than just better than the others. Its hilarious. Rose got tired in the ECF - an absolutely human thing to do after you play your heart out. Stuff like that happens - LOL stop trying to act like that was the whole year. Rose went down having played with all his heart and soul, with his courage working with him. I can name a lot of players who got tired without their courage and shrinked from being the man. Different scale tho for Rose.

LOL, so now you acting like you don't know the context in which that was said. We weren't talking about the post season. If you can't keep up, say slow down man. This is the third time I called out your reading skills in three straight post. AND YOU are questioning somebody else's reality. Grow up, catch up and learn to read.

Stop using age as an excuse. It has nothing to do with judging how good the players were in the 2011 season. Stop it. It has no relevance at all on the discussion.

You said my list was garbage. So you agree that Paul is better? Please give me your top 7 players in the game in order.

And stop throwing out so many cliches like:

"Rose went down playing with all of his heart and soul"

Who ****ing cares? The truth is that he went down playing like shit and shot a pathetic 9% in the 4th qtrs and played so bad that he gave his team no chance to win any of the last 4 games in the ECF...and all 4 of them were winnable. He blew huge leads, choked on game winners, had awful turnovers...etc.

Heart and soul doesn't mean shit if you don't produce. Stop making BS excuses. Fatigue....LOL.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 03:06 PM

Keep in mind, Rose and the Bulls got the better of the Mavs in both meetings last season - both games without Boozer, one without Noah. Rose played well AGAINST the competition, however weak it was.. (and I agree it wasn't the strongest year for stand out MVP's, I was echoing that all season myself). Personally, I would have given the award to Lebron or Dirk before Howard, but it has to do with team success and that relationship the leader has with his squad and how meaningful the numbers are or aren't. Judging from another post, you make it sound like Rose was basically gifted the award, was a non-factor in terms of how Bulls won games, that simplified and naive view of his skills/effect on the Bulls is all I need to hear. It's probably an opinion largely based on stats, which is usually telling (stats seem to be a troll's best weapon). It's easy to over-analyze anything, and make anything sound the way you want it to. It's harder to accept what's actually happening and the fact that it's legitimate. Rose' impact on the bulls is being under valued, and with that I'll agree to disagree.

I never said such a thing. I had Rose as my MVP all year long. That does not mean I think he was the best player. Far from it actually. Rose wasn't gifted any wins.

Its merely being accurate to point out that he had the best defensive/rebounding team in the league backing him up. And again, he makes no impact on either. So, as has been pointed out before, Rose had the luxury of of something he has no impact on keeping him in games. Someone earlier pointed out that the Bulls went 20-6 in games Rose shot under 40%. Its not like that should go without being mentioned.

Like any star, Rose's impact on the game is huge. Take Rose off that team and they might only win 40 games. I have no idea. But I don't put a ton of emphasis on the number of wins within reason while using context.

For example, I think Paul would have done better in the playoffs than Rose. I think Paul is both a better player and a better fit for the Bulls. Do I think Paul would have won 62 or more games? Maybe, who knows. But lets say Paul only leads the Bulls to 58 wins. Are those 4 wins the determining factor on who the better player is? I mean, 4 wins over the course of a season is just almost meaningless to me. So many different factors go into stuff like that.

Again, I'm not talking about MVP...we have been discussing best player. I was and still am in favor of Rose getting MVP. But it doesn't make him the best player.

I really don't care all that much about the regular season. The playoffs are what matters. How players play. And I simply can't ignore how awful Rose was at times in the playoffs. He took damn near 24 shots a game. He shot 39.6% from the field and 24.8% from three. He averaged almost 4 turnovers a game.

In those 16 games, Rose shot under 44% 11 times. He shot under 38% 7 times. He shot over 50% only 2 times. His team was undefeated in games he shot over 42%.

When you combine his overall play with the fact that he was beyond bad in the ECF and even worse in crunch time....I can't rank him as highly as others do. Its that simple for me.

SCdac

09-20-2011, 03:15 PM

Like any star, Rose's impact on the game is huge. Take Rose off that team and they might only win 40 games. I have no idea. But I don't put a ton of emphasis on the number of wins within reason while using context.

I agree. Not minor, not average, but huge. To think otherwise, would lead me to believe they didn't actually watch Rose this season. He was exceptional in the regular season, and lead the Bulls better than any other player lead his team in the RS (imo)... like I said, playoffs is something else entirely, it's never been a factor before and I don't see why it should be now. Dirk for instance was even worse in the playoffs in his MVP year - yet he rightly so deserved the MVP regardless of hindsight-based "best player" rankings. Who cares who the "best player" is? It basically turns into a fantasy basketball debate, and who had the better, sexier stats, etc... If you really don't care about the regular season, you must have felt Dirk's MVP is pretty inconsequential too?

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 03:21 PM

I agree. Not minor, not average, but huge. To think otherwise, would lead me to believe they didn't actually watch Rose this season. He was exceptional in the regular season, and lead the Bulls better than any other player lead his team in the RS (imo)... like I said, playoffs is something else entirely, it's never been a factor before and I don't see why it should be now. Dirk for instance was even worse in the playoffs in his MVP year - yet he rightly so deserved the MVP regardless of hindsight-based "best player" rankings. Who cares who the "best player" is? It basically turns into a fantasy basketball debate, and who had the better, sexier stats, etc... If you really don't care about the regular season, you must have felt Dirk's MVP is pretty inconsequential too?

You are confusing two separate issues.

Dirk's MVP of course was deserved and winning an MVP is historically very important.

But in terms of determining the best player in the game....I care more about the playoffs.

I really don't understand what your issue on this is. I have said Rose makes a huge impact on the game...obviously...and that he was deserving of MVP in my opinion.

The other stuff is not directed towards you. I'm having a debate as to where Rose falls in terms of best players for last year. That has nothing to do with MVP in my opinion.

Titanball4

09-20-2011, 03:31 PM

You are confusing two separate issues.

Dirk's MVP of course was deserved and winning an MVP is historically very important.

But in terms of determining the best player in the game....I care more about the playoffs.

I really don't understand what your issue on this is. I have said Rose makes a huge impact on the game...obviously...and that he was deserving of MVP in my opinion.

The other stuff is not directed towards you. I'm having a debate as to where Rose falls in terms of best players for last year. That has nothing to do with MVP in my opinion.

Honest question here. Cuz I don't really wanna go through 9 pages of debate. When did this topic change from MVP voting to best player in the league?

Pointguard

09-20-2011, 04:25 PM

Stop using age as an excuse. It has nothing to do with judging how good the players were in the 2011 season. Stop it. It has no relevance at all on the discussion.
Huh, are you going back to earlier post? LOL. So what he isn't vet enough to call off Thibes calls. That is relevant. You are acting like he made up his mind to freeze people out. Rose wasn't calling his number. But otherwise I don't know what you are talking about.

You said my list was garbage. So you agree that Paul is better? Please give me your top 7 players in the game in order. Only a complete retard would think Paul had a better year than Rose. Paul only had that one good playoff series. And the previous year wasn't much either. But if he is healthy he's right there with Rose.

Top tier
1.Wade
2.Lebron
3.Kobe
Second tier
4.Rose
5.DH
6.Dirk
7.Durant
Not much distance within the tiers tho.

Who ****ing cares? The truth is that he went down playing like shit and shot a pathetic 9% in the 4th qtrs and played so bad that he gave his team no chance to win any of the last 4 games in the ECF...and all 4 of them were winnable. He blew huge leads, choked on game winners, had awful turnovers...etc.

Heart and soul doesn't mean shit if you don't produce. Stop making BS excuses. Fatigue....LOL.
LOL, yes. You wouldn't know about that because you probably aren't familiar with guys playing hard during the regular season as Dirk doesn't play defense or rebound most of his career. If Rose does nothing but stop Wade he's done a great job. It came at an expense, as it was something not done to a healthy Wade. They cancelled each other out. But that puts Rose on the elite scale. Nobody wins without others stepping up. You keep failing to realize this. Its not a good look.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 04:39 PM

Huh, are you going back to earlier post? LOL. So what he isn't vet enough to call off Thibes calls. That is relevant. You are acting like he made up his mind to freeze people out. Rose wasn't calling his number. But otherwise I don't know what you are talking about.
Only a complete retard would think Paul had a better year than Rose. Paul only had that one good playoff series. And the previous year wasn't much either. But if he is healthy he's right there with Rose.

Top tier
1.Wade
2.Lebron
3.Kobe
Second tier
4.Rose
5.DH
6.Dirk
7.Durant
Not much distance within the tiers tho.

LOL, yes. You wouldn't know about that because you probably aren't familiar with guys playing hard during the regular season as Dirk doesn't play defense or rebound most of his career. If Rose does nothing but stop Wade he's done a great job. It came at an expense, as it was something not done to a healthy Wade. They cancelled each other out. But that puts Rose on the elite scale. Nobody wins without others stepping up. You keep failing to realize this. Its not a good look.

Oh my god. You really are willing to say that the Bulls lost in the ECF because Rose didn't get enough help. Holy shit...just wow. Rose was beyond bad and they still were in every single game.

And now you are knocking Dirk for his regular season play? Just wow....you've lost your mind.

These players don't play in a vacuum...stop acting like they do. I have no doubt Paul has more success than Rose on the Bulls because he's a far better pg. That is what that team needed...not a glorified sg jacking up 29 shots a game and not knowing how to complete simple passes.

But please keep coming back with excuses about fatigue and age...as if they only apply to Rose.

How about Dirk? He's old and battled an injury much of the year. He was fatigued...was he not? But somehow fatigue is an issue for the 22 year old and not the 33 year old?????? More total bullshit.

And only a total and complete moron would rank Kobe over Dirk last year. Guess that is you.

And what I find hilarious is that you take issue with me ranking Rose around 7 or 8...yet you rank him 4th yourself. LOL...and you are the biggest Rose homer I know.

Get a clue....its not absurd to rank Dirk/Howard/Durant over Rose. That puts Rose at 7 right there. So I have no ****ing clue what you are going on about.

Pointguard

09-20-2011, 04:58 PM

I never said such a thing. I had Rose as my MVP all year long. That does not mean I think he was the best player. Far from it actually. Rose wasn't gifted any wins.

Its merely being accurate to point out that he had the best defensive/rebounding team in the league backing him up. And again, he makes no impact on either.

Rose is nearly a top notch rebounding point guard. Rose defensively holds down the elite at his position as good as any other player. And defensively can be looked up to stop the games best offensive weapon in the playoffs.

Stop it! You keep saying this nonsense over and over and over again. You really want to believe that, but it isn't true.

You need a whole gamut of concepts to win games. Get this in your empty head. Players win games - NOT CONCEPTS. None the less, Rose is the best backcourt rebounder and backcourt defender on the team! And this is a team that pulls off defense and rebounding as a team. He's the fourth best highest rebounder on a the team that had its frontcourt decimated! Name me another point guard that is the 3rd best blocker on their team? Why do you continue in the lie. Please Bulls fans don't let nobody else get carried away in this nonsense.

And its coming from two guys that I'm convinced don't watch Bull's games at all. A precept used to down Rose. One more step in yall watching games and seeing things not there and not being able to understand the things that are there.

Pointguard

09-20-2011, 05:18 PM

Oh my god. You really are willing to say that the Bulls lost in the ECF because Rose didn't get enough help. Holy shit...just wow. Rose was beyond bad and they still were in every single game.

And now you are knocking Dirk for his regular season play? Just wow....you've lost your mind.

Yeah Dirk doesn't play defense and rebound in the regular season. Kidd, their point 6-3 pointguard has had better rebounding seasons. Most games I seen Dirk wasn't guarding allstar PF's.

So tell me who stepped up on Chicago in the 4th quarters? I've asked you this the whole summer. The other thing is that you have no clue as to how Derrick Rose plays, functions or operates on the team

These players don't play in a vacuum...stop acting like they do. I have no doubt Paul has more success than Rose on the Bulls because he's a far better pg. That is what that team needed...not a glorified sg jacking up 29 shots a game and not knowing how to complete simple passes.

You are showing how much you don't know again. Teams are puzzles not position players. The traditional pointguard rarely works well for long playoff runs. You keep getting lost in that last series. You are failing bad even in your comprehension of that series.

But please keep coming back with excuses about fatigue and age...as if they only apply to Rose. LOL, don't tell me about excuses. Rose has one. Yall lost your mind finding them for DH. Rose is the only one that overachieved.

How about Dirk? He's old and battled an injury much of the year. He was fatigued...was he not? But somehow fatigue is an issue for the 22 year old and not the 33 year old?????? More total bullshit. [/quote]
LOL, I guess you are just worn out. Dirk has never extended himself to garding Duncan and elite PF's he and you wouldn't know about playing against greatness.

And only a total and complete moron would rank Kobe over Dirk last year. Guess that is you.

Wow, now you don't even understand your own questions. Are you Drunk? You asked me whow were the top players in the game. If you asked for last year only I would list differently.

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 05:33 PM

Rose is nearly a top notch rebounding point guard. Rose defensively holds down the elite at his position as good as any other player. And defensively can be looked up to stop the games best offensive weapon in the playoffs.

Stop it! You keep saying this nonsense over and over and over again. You really want to believe that, but it isn't true.

You need a whole gamut of concepts to win games. Get this in your empty head. Players win games - NOT CONCEPTS. None the less, Rose is the best backcourt rebounder and backcourt defender on the team! And this is a team that pulls off defense and rebounding as a team. He's the fourth best highest rebounder on a the team that had its frontcourt decimated! Name me another point guard that is the 3rd best blocker on their team? Why do you continue in the lie. Please Bulls fans don't let nobody else get carried away in this nonsense.

And its coming from two guys that I'm convinced don't watch Bull's games at all. A precept used to down Rose. One more step in yall watching games and seeing things not there and not being able to understand the things that are there.

You can twist it no matter how you want, Rose does not impact the defense or rebounding of the Bulls team.

The Bulls gave up 8 more points per 100 possessions with Rose on the floor than with him off. Total rebounding remained constant. I don't care what or how you want to come up with in order to explain that...its just reality. Rose is an average defender. Simple as that. He does nothing more defensively than the average guard in the NBA. Lets compare the other guys you seem to have issues with:

The Mavs hold teams to 6 less points per 100 possessions with Dirk on the floor.

The Magic hold teams to 3 less points per 100 possessions with Howard on the floor.

The Hornets hold teams to 2 less points per 100 possessions with Paul on the floor.

And you have the audacity to hate on Dirk for his regular season play. You need to learn that sometimes not trying to score every point and actually playing team basketball is better than one man shows....especially if that one man isn't close to good enough to lead a team to a title.

DERRICK ROSE IS AN AVERAGE DEFENSIVE PLAYER. SIMPLE AS THAT. UNTIL YOU REALIZE OR ADMIT THAT...THESE TALKS ARE POINTLESS.

You keep going back and forth so much its laughable. You use everything in the regular season for offense and ignore Rose's inept playoff play. Then you jump to Rose "shutting down" Wade as if it proves he's a good defender. When of course you should know that team defense is what stops a guy like Wade...not the average defense that Rose plays.

You'll just never understand basketball. Keep thinking that Rose's team winning 10 more games than Howard makes Rose a better player. Its the dumbest notion. Along the lines of Dirk winning a title this year makes him better just because his team won. Sorry...doesn't work that way. Team Team Team. Why are you so hell bent on ranking individual players based on what a team does.

And why are you so hell bent on throwing out every ****ing sports cliche ever to excuse Rose from playing horribly in the ECF. Who the **** cares if he went down "with heart and soul"...what does that even mean? Is that worth more than another player severely outplaying him? Or is that worth more than what Dirk did to the very same team in pretty similar late game situations???????

But again....you claim Dirk doesn't try in the regular season...and he doesn't defend or rebound. Yet the Mavs defense gets worse when he leaves the game and somehow the Bulls defense gets better when Rose leaves.....LOL...sound logic mate.

And of course this has now turned into Rose vs Dirk...which is fine:

28/8/3 on 49/46/94 61% TS 25.2 PER for Dirk in the playoffs. The best clutch playoff run of this era and one of the most clutch playoff runs of all time.

27/4/8 on 40/25/83 50% TS 22.5 PER for Rose in the playoffs. One of the worst clutch performances I can remember out of an "elite players" (as you claim)....

And you rank Rose over Dirk? Not to mention that if you go by your ****ed up "regular season wins mean everything" approach.....Dirk still managed to lead his team to 57 wins despite missing 9 games (mavs went 2-7 without him) in the tougher conference.

LOL...no matter how you slice it Dirk was better than Rose.

Inb4 something about age and fatigue is somehow tried to be used as an excuse for the younger player. ROFL

DMAVS41

09-20-2011, 05:42 PM

Yeah Dirk doesn't play defense and rebound in the regular season. Kidd, their point 6-3 pointguard has had better rebounding seasons. Most games I seen Dirk wasn't guarding allstar PF's.

So tell me who stepped up on Chicago in the 4th quarters? I've asked you this the whole summer. The other thing is that you have no clue as to how Derrick Rose plays, functions or operates on the team

You are showing how much you don't know again. Teams are puzzles not position players. The traditional pointguard rarely works well for long playoff runs. You keep getting lost in that last series. You are failing bad even in your comprehension of that series.
LOL, don't tell me about excuses. Rose has one. Yall lost your mind finding them for DH. Rose is the only one that overachieved.

How about Dirk? He's old and battled an injury much of the year. He was fatigued...was he not? But somehow fatigue is an issue for the 22 year old and not the 33 year old?????? More total bullshit.
LOL, I guess you are just worn out. Dirk has never extended himself to garding Duncan and elite PF's he and you wouldn't know about playing against greatness.

Wow, now you don't even understand your own questions. Are you Drunk? You asked me whow were the top players in the game. If you asked for last year only I would list differently.[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? You rank Rose over Dirk...in what ****ed up reality do you live in that Rose has done enough to be ranked over Dirk as a player whether its past, present, or future?????

knicksman

09-20-2011, 11:18 PM

Pointguard

09-21-2011, 01:03 AM

You can twist it no matter how you want, Rose does not impact the defense or rebounding of the Bulls team. He's top five among point guards in rebounds (only .7 away from being the top) and fourth on his team. What do you not get? They play defense and rebound as a team. If he's the best backcourt rebounder he's key to their rebounding. Plus he's the reason why they are a top offensive rebounding team.

The Bulls gave up 8 more points per 100 possessions with Rose on the floor than with him off. Total rebounding remained constant. I don't care what or how you want to come up with in order to explain that...its just reality. Rose is an average defender. Simple as that. He does nothing more defensively than the average guard in the NBA. Lets compare the other guys you seem to have issues with: LOL, unwittingly you just said Rose is responsible for the best defense in the league. Rose only sits 24%of the time. So you are only talking about one basket for the second unit which is much more susceptible to good defense because their second string PG is much weaker than their starter in handling pressure. But if Rose is to be held accountable for one basket - then he has to be held accountable for the defense of which he is rocking 76% of the time. You are going from bad to worse and you are looking looking pretty desperate. Do you know how stupid that stat makes you sound? Why don't you do a per 1000 possession argument. It's silly.

And you have the audacity to hate on Dirk for his regular season play. You need to learn that sometimes not trying to score every point and actually playing team basketball is better than one man shows....especially if that one man isn't close to good enough to lead a team to a title.

DERRICK ROSE IS AN AVERAGE DEFENSIVE PLAYER. SIMPLE AS THAT. UNTIL YOU REALIZE OR ADMIT THAT...THESE TALKS ARE POINTLESS.
So holding the elite down unlike any other backcourt player is average? Holding down Wade is average? :roll: :roll: :roll:

You use everything in the regular season for offense and ignore Rose's inept playoff play.

You are talking about one series. You seem to constantly get stuck in the mud. When Rose had shooters by his side he shot better than Dirk did in the playoffs and Rose did it against great defensive teams without getting calls from the ref. One series, is just that one series. You are trying like a crazed fool to make it applicable to everything and should be the way everything is defined. Its hilarious. Rose played in the greatest playoff series ever and was money.

Then you jump to Rose "shutting down" Wade as if it proves he's a good defender. When of course you should know that team defense is what stops a guy like Wade...not the average defense that Rose plays. You are going to theory instead of what you seen. That's why it's so easy to pick you apart.

You'll just never understand basketball. Keep thinking that Rose's team winning 10 more games than Howard makes Rose a better player. Its the dumbest notion. Along the lines of Dirk winning a title this year makes him better just because his team won. Sorry...doesn't work that way. Team Team Team. Why are you so hell bent on ranking individual players based on what a team does.
My gripe with DH was, after Feb., his energy level, weak leadership, his detachment from his team, his passive attitude toward other stars out shining him, his best game not having any positive effect and couple of games later his worse game and little play having the most positive impact on the team, his team had the easiest schedule with him having no urgency, and I had a problem with his bad judegment. Rose definitely had a go out and make it happen attitude. Dwight was mysterious with his attitude.

And why are you so hell bent on throwing out every ****ing sports cliche ever to excuse Rose from playing horribly in the ECF.

:roll: Wow!

DMAVS41

09-21-2011, 11:32 AM

He's top five among point guards in rebounds (only .7 away from being the top) and fourth on his team. What do you not get? They play defense and rebound as a team. If he's the best backcourt rebounder he's key to their rebounding. Plus he's the reason why they are a top offensive rebounding team. LOL, unwittingly you just said Rose is responsible for the best defense in the league. Rose only sits 24%of the time. So you are only talking about one basket for the second unit which is much more susceptible to good defense because their second string PG is much weaker than their starter in handling pressure. But if Rose is to be held accountable for one basket - then he has to be held accountable for the defense of which he is rocking 76% of the time. You are going from bad to worse and you are looking looking pretty desperate. Do you know how stupid that stat makes you sound? Why don't you do a per 1000 possession argument. It's silly.

So holding the elite down unlike any other backcourt player is average? Holding down Wade is average? :roll: :roll: :roll:

You are talking about one series. You seem to constantly get stuck in the mud. When Rose had shooters by his side he shot better than Dirk did in the playoffs and Rose did it against great defensive teams without getting calls from the ref. One series, is just that one series. You are trying like a crazed fool to make it applicable to everything and should be the way everything is defined. Its hilarious. Rose played in the greatest playoff series ever and was money.
You are going to theory instead of what you seen. That's why it's so easy to pick you apart.

My gripe with DH was, after Feb., his energy level, weak leadership, his detachment from his team, his passive attitude toward other stars out shining him, his best game not having any positive effect and couple of games later his worse game and little play having the most positive impact on the team, his team had the easiest schedule with him having no urgency, and I had a problem with his bad judegment. Rose definitely had a go out and make it happen attitude. Dwight was mysterious with his attitude.

:roll: Wow!

Actually no. The Bulls get better on defense when Rose leaves the game. Almost every other team/player you've been hating on sees their teams get worse.

Rose does not impact defense. 8 points per 100 possessions is actually a lot. Rose basically sits a qtr a game. So the drop off is noticeable and its not some meaningless stat. What it actually means is that you could plug in an average pg and the defense of the Bulls would remain constant or get better. LOL....common sense please. Only you would try to use the Bulls defense getting much worse with Rose on the floor as evidence that Rose is a big part of the defense. Its beyond stupid. You still can't realize that Rose is not the driving force of the defense. I don't know what ****ing games you are watching. He's an average defender...you know it, and you failing to admit it makes you look pathetic.

Also, I'm still waiting for you to explain what you are using to rank Rose over Dirk. Please explain. You ranked Rose two spots over Dirk I think.....I can't wait to hear why Rose deserves to be ranked over Dirk....LOL

Pointguard

09-21-2011, 02:04 PM

Actually no. The Bulls get better on defense when Rose leaves the game. Almost every other team/player you've been hating on sees their teams get worse.

Rose does not impact defense. 8 points per 100 possessions is actually a lot. Rose basically sits a qtr a game. So the drop off is noticeable and its not some meaningless stat. What it actually means is that you could plug in an average pg and the defense of the Bulls would remain constant or get better. LOL....common sense please.
You act like you don't the value of Chris Paul, Steve Nash, D Will, Rondo and Kidd. When they are out the game their teams suffer. If you took those guys out of a game for a quarter the fall off will be about 5 or 6 baskets a quarter. The second unit plays an inferior team that is much more susceptible to defense. If the second unit was as good as the first then your argument might have some leverage. Or if Rose wasn't shutting down those players above you might be making something close to sense. Why do you watch games? Just read the boxscores and misunderstand the game from there, cause watching the game seemingly doesn't help you. You picked up another stat that was above your head. We went thru this before.

Only you would try to use the Bulls defense getting much worse with Rose on the floor as evidence that Rose is a big part of the defense. See above.

Also, I'm still waiting for you to explain what you are using to rank Rose over Dirk. Please explain. You ranked Rose two spots over Dirk I think.....I can't wait to hear why Rose deserves to be ranked over Dirk....LOL

The season is over. Dirk peaked. I think his game will come down a bit, and Rose is improving. Nothing more or nothing less. Dirk had the best overall year last year and it was very impressive.

DMAVS41

09-21-2011, 02:20 PM

You act like you don't the value of Chris Paul, Steve Nash, D Will, Rondo and Kidd. When they are out the game their teams suffer. If you took those guys out of a game for a quarter the fall off will be about 5 or 6 baskets a quarter. The second unit plays an inferior team that is much more susceptible to defense. If the second unit was as good as the first then your argument might have some leverage. Or if Rose wasn't shutting down those players above you might be making something close to sense. Why do you watch games? Just read the boxscores and misunderstand the game from there, cause watching the game seemingly doesn't help you. You picked up another stat that was above your head. We went thru this before.

See above.

The season is over. Dirk peaked. I think his game will come down a bit, and Rose is improving. Nothing more or nothing less. Dirk had the best overall year last year and it was very impressive.

Its not like that with most other players. What you say is true and that stat needs to be used in context. However, Rose is not the driving force on the defense/rebounding to begin with...so crediting him with the great defense and then turning around and not mentioning that the defense actually gets better with him off the floor is hilariously biased and just not logical.

But it really doesn't matter.

So I'll ask a different question. Please rank the best players in the game currently. Not looking to the future. We don't know what will happen. Rose could continue to play like he did in the playoffs and that certainly won't be good enough to rank him over the players you have him above.

So rank the top 7 players right now....

Pointguard

09-21-2011, 03:14 PM

Its not like that with most other players. What you say is true and that stat needs to be used in context. However, Rose is not the driving force on the defense/rebounding to begin with...so crediting him with the great defense and then turning around and not mentioning that the defense actually gets better with him off the floor is hilariously biased and just not logical.

But it really doesn't matter.
If a player holding down D Will, C Paul, and Nash to 12 points in 35 minutes is much more of an accomplishment than holding down Jared Jack and John Doe to 4 points in 10 minutes Everytime without exception. Aparently you see it differently.

So I'll ask a different question. Please rank the best players in the game currently. Not looking to the future. We don't know what will happen. Rose could continue to play like he did in the playoffs and that certainly won't be good enough to rank him over the players you have him above.

So rank the top 7 players right now....
LOL.the Rose scale is amazing. He's so superior that you have to take his worse moments to compare him to the elite. Its amazing.

DMAVS41

09-21-2011, 03:23 PM

If a player holding down D Will, C Paul, and Nash to 12 points in 35 minutes is much more of an accomplishment than holding down Jared Jack and John Doe to 4 points in 10 minutes Everytime without exception. Aparently you see it differently.

LOL.the Rose scale is amazing. He's so superior that you have to take his worse moments to compare him to the elite. Its amazing.

So you refuse to answer? Who are your top 7 players?

And I hold what people do in the playoffs more highly than the regular season. Been that way forever. Its my choice. I don't care all that much about the regular season. There are too many terrible teams and teams that don't show up in the regular season to draw accurate conclusions about a player. I want to see how these guys play against other quality teams/players that are locked in and fighting hard. The NBA regular season is way too watered down and plenty of teams can win on effort and coaching alone.

Its funny to me because while I said Rose deserved MVP all year, I also said he was over-rated. Then what happens when the games get tougher in the playoffs? His play drops off dramatically and ends with an absolute shit fest in the most important 5 games of the year. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe using the regular season as heavily as you do is a little flawed.

The fact that you admit that Rose was at his worst in the playoffs is telling. I don't want the guy playing his worst in the most important games of the year. LOL

When you feel like it, please give me your top 7 players. Now...not predicting what will happen in the future.

D-Wade316

09-21-2011, 06:50 PM

LOL.the Rose scale is amazing. He's so superior that you have to take his worse moments to compare him to the elite. Its amazing.
So now your evading DMAVS41 simple question? Please! If you want your opinion to be respected just show your top 7. We can start talking after that.

D-Wade316

09-21-2011, 06:51 PM

So holding the elite down unlike any other backcourt player is average? Holding down Wade is average? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Fvcking idiot! Rose didn't lock Wade down. Prov it.

DMAVS41

09-21-2011, 07:17 PM

Fvcking idiot! Rose didn't lock Wade down. Prov it.

This notion of crediting Rose solely with slowing down Wade is so damn annoying.

He keeps wanting a double standard. He wants to be able to put Rose in the top 4 or 5 in the game, but then when you grade Rose on that scale, he cries about the standards being too high and that Rose is young...as if age determines what his impact is.

Age means nothing in this conversation yet he jumps back to that excuse constantly.

He thinks Shaqattack and I have "lost our minds" because we rank Howard over Rose. Really? The best center in the game and by far the best defensive force in the game that reached a new level offensively. Its absurd to say he's a better player than Rose? You would honestly think Rose put up 30/8/8 and played great in the playoffs the way this guy talks about him.

I can't believe the Rose homers are still running around here spewing this nonsense after what we saw happen to their boy in the ECF. LOL....could a pg play worse in the 4th qtrs of a series? I honestly don't know if its possible. Terrible turnovers, terrible decision making, choking at the ft line, 9% from the field, settling for long jumpers (and missing pretty much all of them), blowing game winners, and leading the charge on blowing huge leads.

I mean my god. The player they speak of in such high regard should not crumble like that. And he wants us to ignore that? What? Those are the kind of games and moments that matter. Not some mundane regular season game in which the other team doesn't care as much or try nearly as hard as a playoff team.

And again, its not like Rose carried that team. It was the defense that carried that team. In the 26 games that Rose shot under 40%...the Bulls went 20-6...and if you include the 5 games that Rose shot exactly 40%...the bulls went 24-7....ROFL

So lets say that again. The Bulls went 24-7 in the 31 games that Rose shot 40% or worse if the other stat is correct.

My math might be off, but I believe that is even a better pace than 62 games.
Lets continue to ignore that.

:facepalm

D-Wade316

09-21-2011, 07:26 PM

This notion of crediting Rose solely with slowing down Wade is so damn annoying.

He keeps wanting a double standard. He wants to be able to put Rose in the top 4 or 5 in the game, but then when you grade Rose on that scale, he cries about the standards being too high and that Rose is young...as if age determines what his impact is.

Age means nothing in this conversation yet he jumps back to that excuse constantly.

He thinks Shaqattack and I have "lost our minds" because we rank Howard over Rose. Really? The best center in the game and by far the best defensive force in the game that reached a new level offensively. Its absurd to say he's a better player than Rose? You would honestly think Rose put up 30/8/8 and played great in the playoffs the way this guy talks about him.

I can't believe the Rose homers are still running around here spewing this nonsense after what we saw happen to their boy in the ECF. LOL....could a pg play worse in the 4th qtrs of a series? I honestly don't know if its possible. Terrible turnovers, terrible decision making, choking at the ft line, 9% from the field, settling for long jumpers (and missing pretty much all of them), blowing game winners, and leading the charge on blowing huge leads.

I mean my god. The player they speak of in such high regard should not crumble like that. And he wants us to ignore that? What? Those are the kind of games and moments that matter. Not some mundane regular season game in which the other team doesn't care as much or try nearly as hard as a playoff team.

And again, its not like Rose carried that team. It was the defense that carried that team. In the 26 games that Rose shot under 40%...the Bulls went 20-6....ROFL

Lets continue to ignore that.

:facepalm
They have been saying that ever since they lost as an ammunition against Rose haters. The thing is they can't back it up.

I've been saying all-season long that Chicago's defense is what is makes Rose look so good. Heck, you can put Westbrook's numbers besides him and see the godawful similarities. Chicago Cows fans completely ignore this. I had a discussion with another Bulls fan in TWCenter Forum and asked him for the top 5. He said Lebron, Rose, Dwight, Kobe, Wade. That is in order. :facepalm

DMAVS41

09-21-2011, 07:29 PM

They have been saying that ever since they lost as an ammunition against Rose haters. The thing is they can't back it up.

I've been saying all-season long that Chicago's defense is what is makes Rose look so good. Heck, you can put Westbrook's numbers besides him and see the godawful similarities. Chicago Cows fans completely ignore this. I had a discussion with another Bulls fan in TWCenter Forum and asked him for the top 5. He said Lebron, Rose, Dwight, Kobe, Wade. That is in order. :facepalm

I just thought the playoffs/ecf would shut them up. Rose shot 37.5% or worse in 7 of his 16 playoff games. LOL...he was awful.

Duncan21formvp

09-21-2011, 07:34 PM

D-Wade316

09-21-2011, 07:51 PM

Dwight lost in round 1 with HCA to a clearly inferior team.
What were the FG%s of Dwight's teammates?

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 12:34 AM

So you refuse to answer? Who are your top 7 players?

And I hold what people do in the playoffs more highly than the regular season. Been that way forever. Its my choice. I don't care all that much about the regular season. There are too many terrible teams and teams that don't show up in the regular season to draw accurate conclusions about a player. I want to see how these guys play against other quality teams/players that are locked in and fighting hard. The NBA regular season is way too watered down and plenty of teams can win on effort and coaching alone.

You do realize you have DH as third and he was only responsible for one win. Kobe and Lebron were all responsible for at least three times as much. Rose five possibly 7 times as much. You have been contradicting yourself left and right.

Its funny to me because while I said Rose deserved MVP all year, I also said he was over-rated. Then what happens when the games get tougher in the playoffs? His play drops off dramatically and ends with an absolute shit fest in the most important 5 games of the year. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe using the regular season as heavily as you do is a little flawed.

The fact that you admit that Rose was at his worst in the playoffs is telling. I don't want the guy playing his worst in the most important games of the year. LOL

When you feel like it, please give me your top 7 players. Now...not predicting what will happen in the future.
Hahahaha, its one series. STOP TRYING To make it more than that. He's played very well in four. ONE is the exception NOT the rule. You keep getting stuck in the same place - the world moves on. Rose, however, did have a great defensive series, instead. So the correct way to say it is he had a bad offensive series but an amazing defensive one.

I posted this at the end of the season and it hasn't changed. Who had the best year.

Dirk
Wade
Rose
Lebron
DH and Durant equal
Kobe

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 12:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
LOL.the Rose scale is amazing. He's so superior that you have to take his worse moments to compare him to the elite. Its amazing.

So now your evading DMAVS41 simple question? Please! If you want your opinion to be respected just show your top 7. We can start talking after that.

You come on cursing, incoherent and apparently really hurt - those two concepts above have no relationship. Are you some extension of Dmavs? Your energy and slant makes it easy to tell that you and Dmavs are connected ("once you answer, and you really should answer Dmavs then we can talk" - yall are too old for that, c'mon now.) Yall really need to do some mutual healing. These burst of illogical quips is getting a bit disturbing. Dmavs is having enough trouble keeping up with his own thoughts.

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 01:18 AM

What were the FG%s of Dwight's teammates?

LOL, you didn't even read this thread and coming on like you some knowledge gangster. Don't talk about DH teammates that dominated a game in which Dwight was 2 for 8 from the field for a whopping 8 point 8 rebound game with 1 block. In fact, it was by far their best game because he was out of their way.

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 01:22 AM

Fvcking idiot! Rose didn't lock Wade down. Prov it.

Some people just say some incredibly dumb things and that's just the best they can do. You like DMavs say things that prove yall don't watch the game or are fully incapable of seeing what happens of significance.

DMAVS41

09-22-2011, 01:33 AM

You do realize you have DH as third and he was only responsible for one win. Kobe and Lebron were all responsible for at least three times as much. Rose five possibly 7 times as much. You have been contradicting yourself left and right.

Hahahaha, its one series. STOP TRYING To make it more than that. He's played very well in four. ONE is the exception NOT the rule. You keep getting stuck in the same place - the world moves on. Rose, however, did have a great defensive series, instead. So the correct way to say it is he had a bad offensive series but an amazing defensive one.

I posted this at the end of the season and it hasn't changed. Who had the best year.

Dirk
Wade
Rose
Lebron
DH and Durant equal
Kobe

Look. Your insults are just laughable and there is no need for them. I'm not confused about anything...nor am I contradicting myself.

We differ on everything. You still can't grasp that I'm talking about level of play and I don't credit one player with winning/losing. You keep harping on Rose having more playoff wins as if they means he was better. Hell, Zach Randolph was better in the playoffs than Rose was. You simply can't separate team from individual at all.

And because of that, there is no point in debating. You think winning/losing should be almost solely about the star player. I don't think so. I seriously doubt you would have Dirk as the best player in 06 or 09....but I can assure you he was as good or better first game through last game in both of those years. He didn't have the same success because he didn't have the same kind of help he did this year. Under your idiotic logic, Dirk reached some new magical level this year...and that simply isn't the case.

Just like you think Howard was better in 09 than he was this year. Just simply not true and you saying that calls into question your basketball knowledge and ability to evaluate talent.

Again, these players do not play in a vacuum. They play in different circumstances with different player and with different coaches. You can't just make blanket statements and act like that stuff doesn't matter.

In fact, whats even more annoying than your absurd over-rating of rose, is your constant mentioning of all the faults of Rose's teammates and never mentioning anything about the teams of other players.

Rose played with one of the best supporting casts in the league....a team that could stay in games no matter how horrid Rose played...even in the playoffs against one of the best teams...LOL

Its not just about what players do....its about what they do based on circumstances. Again, Rose did nothing extraordinary for an elite player. Your issue apparently is that you want to be able to call Rose elite and say he's better than Howard...but then you hate when he's actually held to that standard.

There is simply nothing spectacular about Rose's numbers or play....especially when you factor in his entire body of work and put more of an emphasis on his play in the playoffs.

He shot sub 40% for the playoffs. He didn't do a good job managing games or getting his teammates involved as a pg should. In the ECF...he was horrendous...and even worse late in close games....which all 4 the Bulls lost were.

If you want to claim he's elite....you have to hold him to elite standards. I mean my god...you act like its some rare happening that Rose plays like shit and the Bulls still win.

24-7 during the regular season in games Rose shot 40% or worse....

8 of 27 with 7 turnovers....1 of 9 on threes and his team manages to go to OT against the Heat
9 of 29 with 4 turnovers....2 of 8 on threes and his team takes a 5 point lead going into the 4th qtr in game 5

And there are many many many more examples. And you have the audacity to claim Rose wasn't getting enough help? How about he just not play like complete shit in the most important 5 games of the year. Maybe that would have helped.

The worst was game 4. Rose took 27 shots...only made 8...LOL...in a game in which both Boozer and Deng shot 50% and were playing great. Why the **** is a pg taking 27 shots in a game like that? And of course again the Bulls blew a 4th qtr lead and Rose was terrible in crunch time.

So you keep thinking that the regular season matters more and that a team wins and loses solely because of one player. I love how you want to credit Rose solely with getting to 62 wins and then absolve him completely of his playoff meltdown and blame his teammates.

All it keeps coming back to is the simple fact that you want to claim Rose is elite, but then don't really want to have to back it up because you can't stand the criticisms and standards he has to meet to back up those claims.

And you laughing at the notion that Howard is a better player is just absurd....but not nearly as absurd as you ranking Rose over Lebron...after Lebron shit all over him in the ECF. I mean...what more do you need to see? Lebron is easily the superior player. I can't believe you honestly are disputing that.

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 02:52 AM

Look. Your insults are just laughable and there is no need for them. I'm not confused about anything...nor am I contradicting myself.

We differ on everything. You still can't grasp that I'm talking about level of play and I don't credit one player with winning/losing. You keep harping on Rose having more playoff wins as if they means he was better. Hell, Zach Randolph was better in the playoffs than Rose was. You simply can't separate team from individual at all.

You can in DH's case because he was detached from his team. In Rose's case he was their leader, their consistency, and their closer. The team went thru a lot of changes and needed somebody to hold it together.

And because of that, there is no point in debating. You think winning/losing should be almost solely about the star player. I don't think so. I seriously doubt you would have Dirk as the best player in 06 or 09....but I can assure you he was as good or better first game through last game in both of those years. He didn't have the same success because he didn't have the same kind of help he did this year. Under your idiotic logic, Dirk reached some new magical level this year...and that simply isn't the case.
I don't think winning and loosing is the main criteria, most of the time I hate it. But I do think that when a team goes thru a ton of changes, the second and third best players have a bad year, new coach, young team that the players do turn to a player. And if that team overachieves from day one, then you have to factor in leadership and what that player has done. Rose came to play everyday. I seen too many games from the other MVP candidates where they didn't bring it.

Just like you think Howard was better in 09 than he was this year. Just simply not true and you saying that calls into question your basketball knowledge and ability to evaluate talent.
Once again you weren't watching the games. Howard tailed off hard this year. And he was an integral part of that team in 09. No way does his 46 and 18 game be of less impact than his 8/8 game in 09. What are you evaluating? His play away from the team? I'm not making a statement about your knowledge but you just might be better off without it. Go the Scarecrow route.

In fact, whats even more annoying than your absurd over-rating of rose, is your constant mentioning of all the faults of Rose's teammates and never mentioning anything about the teams of other players.

Rose played with one of the best supporting casts in the league....a team that could stay in games no matter how horrid Rose played...even in the playoffs against one of the best teams...LOL

LOL, Howard's team had the easiest schedule in the league from March on and guess who was never the best player in big games? Guess who didn't play big in any of them? Rose had a better team than Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Durant? Rose had way more challenges than any of them as well. way less talent, way less experience and more injuries.

Me explaining to you how the Bulls operate is way over head. So I don't have to go there. He is moreso the main man on his team than all of the guys mentioned above.

Its not just about what players do....its about what they do based on circumstances. Again, Rose did nothing extraordinary for an elite player. Your issue apparently is that you want to be able to call Rose elite and say he's better than Howard...but then you hate when he's actually held to that standard.
Circumstances??? like injuries? Winning without excuses? Playing hard and better than anybody late in games? Being a leader of your team when they go thru changes galore? Overachieving? winning more than four super-teams with no - allstars? LOL, the Rose scale is brought to light again. Wowa, do you surprise yourself with the things you say?

He shot sub 40% for the playoffs. He didn't do a good job managing games or getting his teammates involved as a pg should. In the ECF...he was horrendous...and even worse late in close games....which all 4 the Bulls lost were.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
200 times. Get over it.

If you want to claim he's elite....you have to hold him to elite standards. I mean my god...you act like its some rare happening that Rose plays like shit and the Bulls still win.

24-7 during the regular season in games Rose shot 40% or worse....

8 of 27 with 7 turnovers....1 of 9 on threes and his team manages to go to OT against the Heat
9 of 29 with 4 turnovers....2 of 8 on threes and his team takes a 5 point lead going into the 4th qtr in game 5

You aim of the game is to win. Rose tires out teams and then out executes them in the end. They had a ton of 4th quarter wins on those nights. On a team that isn't focused, like say, Orlando, you could never do this. But with a determined focused leader you have more options. Most teams will get sucked in to that they are doing a good job on Rose, at least to the 47 minute mark. There's no doubting who the leader is then.

And there are many many many more examples. And you have the audacity to claim Rose wasn't getting enough help? How about he just not play like complete shit in the most important 5 games of the year. Maybe that would have helped. 201 times. :roll: and then you start up again. 204 and 205 below. WOW.

All it keeps coming back to is the simple fact that you want to claim Rose is elite, but then don't really want to have to back it up because you can't stand the criticisms and standards he has to meet to back up those claims.

And you laughing at the notion that Howard is a better player is just absurd....but not nearly as absurd as you ranking Rose over Lebron...after Lebron shit all over him in the ECF. I mean...what more do you need to see? Lebron is easily the superior player. I can't believe you honestly are disputing that.

Lebron did something to me that seemed like betrayal which is like a sin - if that didn't happen I would have him at number one.

I don't laugh at the notion of Howard being even the best player. I just can't see having Dirk as number one and DH number two. DH is the anti-dirk. The criteria and standard has to do a dramatic shift to have them ranked next to each other. Dirk has no numbers to go by but influences wins dramatically. DH is exactly the opposite. Dirk is great at the end of games, shoots foul shots great and is totally integrated into his team. DH, this year, was very much the opposite.

D-Wade316

09-22-2011, 03:07 AM

You come on cursing, incoherent and apparently really hurt - those two concepts above have no relationship. Are you some extension of Dmavs? Your energy and slant makes it easy to tell that you and Dmavs are connected ("once you answer, and you really should answer Dmavs then we can talk" - yall are too old for that, c'mon now.) Yall really need to do some mutual healing. These burst of illogical quips is getting a bit disturbing. Dmavs is having enough trouble keeping up with his own thoughts.
Not me, you. You are clearly butthurt by people who believe that Rose ain't even top 10.

D-Wade316

09-22-2011, 03:07 AM

Some people just say some incredibly dumb things and that's just the best they can do. You like DMavs say things that prove yall don't watch the game or are fully incapable of seeing what happens of significance.
You are clearly dumb. You have nothing to support your opinion.

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 10:30 AM

So now your evading DMAVS41 simple question? Please! If you want your opinion to be respected just show your top 7. We can start talking after that.

Dmav's cellmate has spoken.

DMAVS41

09-22-2011, 11:32 AM

You can in DH's case because he was detached from his team. In Rose's case he was their leader, their consistency, and their closer. The team went thru a lot of changes and needed somebody to hold it together.

I don't think winning and loosing is the main criteria, most of the time I hate it. But I do think that when a team goes thru a ton of changes, the second and third best players have a bad year, new coach, young team that the players do turn to a player. And if that team overachieves from day one, then you have to factor in leadership and what that player has done. Rose came to play everyday. I seen too many games from the other MVP candidates where they didn't bring it.

Once again you weren't watching the games. Howard tailed off hard this year. And he was an integral part of that team in 09. No way does his 46 and 18 game be of less impact than his 8/8 game in 09. What are you evaluating? His play away from the team? I'm not making a statement about your knowledge but you just might be better off without it. Go the Scarecrow route.

LOL, Howard's team had the easiest schedule in the league from March on and guess who was never the best player in big games? Guess who didn't play big in any of them? Rose had a better team than Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Durant? Rose had way more challenges than any of them as well. way less talent, way less experience and more injuries.

Me explaining to you how the Bulls operate is way over head. So I don't have to go there. He is moreso the main man on his team than all of the guys mentioned above.

Circumstances??? like injuries? Winning without excuses? Playing hard and better than anybody late in games? Being a leader of your team when they go thru changes galore? Overachieving? winning more than four super-teams with no - allstars? LOL, the Rose scale is brought to light again. Wowa, do you surprise yourself with the things you say?

:roll: :roll: :roll:
200 times. Get over it.

You aim of the game is to win. Rose tires out teams and then out executes them in the end. They had a ton of 4th quarter wins on those nights. On a team that isn't focused, like say, Orlando, you could never do this. But with a determined focused leader you have more options. Most teams will get sucked in to that they are doing a good job on Rose, at least to the 47 minute mark. There's no doubting who the leader is then.

201 times. :roll: and then you start up again. 204 and 205 below. WOW.

Lebron did something to me that seemed like betrayal which is like a sin - if that didn't happen I would have him at number one.

I don't laugh at the notion of Howard being even the best player. I just can't see having Dirk as number one and DH number two. DH is the anti-dirk. The criteria and standard has to do a dramatic shift to have them ranked next to each other. Dirk has no numbers to go by but influences wins dramatically. DH is exactly the opposite. Dirk is great at the end of games, shoots foul shots great and is totally integrated into his team. DH, this year, was very much the opposite.

Do you understand how incredibly stupid it is to judge a player by something off the court? You are basically saying that if Lebron had stayed in Cleveland and played the exact same way you'd have him number 1. Wow....are you really that dumb? You let something off the court influence your ranking of what a player does on the court? LOL

Dirk and Howard impact the game in different ways....absolutely. That does not mean that their overall impact is any less or more...players are different.

And of course I keep bringing up the playoffs and the ECF...its the most important time/series of the year. It matters the most.

You don't like Dirk at all which is clear. How would you describe his 07 debating with someone. What would your response be to people constantly bringing up the Warriors series. Do you think it makes sense to just say:

"stop mentioning the most important 6 games of the year"...stop mentioning only the bad. LOL...that is what the elite players are judged off of. Not the regular season in which an average supporting cast and Dirk can run off 67 wins because of attitude and effort.

You act like I'm putting Rose outside the top 20. I said he's borderline top 7. I just find it hilarious how you want everyone to not mention the 16 most important games of the year for Rose.

Nobody is saying winning and losing is worth nothing in the regular season. But you aren't talking about one team winning 75 games and another winning 40 games or something. Dirk led the mavs to 57 wins despite missing 9 games. Howard went through a ton of changes as well and had less help and still got his team to 52 wins.

Its funny because you constantly bring up the example of the Magic winning the playoff game with Howard not doing a lot...even though he anchors the defense and makes a huge impact on the game no matter how he plays offensively. But you are always bringing that up. What about all the games Rose did nothing and the Bulls won or had great chances to win? We already gave you the stat that you continue to ignore:

The Bulls went 24-7 in games that Rose shot 40% or under. In the playoffs, he shot 39.6% and even worse in the ECF and the Bulls had a chance to win every single game. How? Are you really going to credit Rose for all of that?

A perfect example of this is Dirk in the Finals. In games 4 and 6 Dirk did not do much in my opinion. Obviously in game 4 he was sick, but that doesn't change the fact that he shot 32%, was slow on defense, and didn't create much at all. His teammates played great. Chandler was a beast...Marion played one of his best games in my opinion. Shutting Lebron down and making key buckets. Game 6 Dirk was awful in the first half. 1 of 12 shooting. If he didn't have Terry stepping up big time, that game could have been over. Do you really think its fair to credit Dirk solely for beating the Heat? Dirk didn't play at the level he played most of the playoffs...he struggled in two of the 4 wins pretty badly.

But he did enough to win late and he deserves credit for that...but he was in that position only because he had teammates and coaching that supported him.

In your mind, Rose won all of those regular season games alone. You discount the simple fact that Rose's supporting cast was by far the best defensive supporting cast for a star. You discount Deng's solid two way play all year long...Deng putting in something around 40 mpg iirc.

I don't really care where you rank Rose. I do think ranking Rose right now over Lebron/Wade/Dirk/Howard is really dumb...but after that I don't care all that much.

But the notion you claim that I'm an idiot for ranking some other guys over Rose is silly. You sell the Bulls supporting cast and coach way short. The evidence is all there that they were actually a great supporting cast. You have to be able to be in a position to win games when your star player plays poorly. The Bulls absolutely did that for Rose. Maybe more than any other team in the league. You should really learn that....because its going to pay huge dividends going forward for your favorite team and player. The Bulls are going to win a title soon. Once they slightly improve the roster and Rose improves as a pg and late game player...they will win. They have everything you need to win a title right now.

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 05:48 PM

Do you understand how incredibly stupid it is to judge a player by something off the court? You are basically saying that if Lebron had stayed in Cleveland and played the exact same way you'd have him number 1. Wow....are you really that dumb? You let something off the court influence your ranking of what a player does on the court? LOL
LOL, where did you get that from??? I judge Lebron the same way you did. I couldn't tell which Jersey he had on in the finals. That was metaphoric so please don't go crazy on the literal meaning.

Dirk and Howard impact the game in different ways....absolutely. That does not mean that their overall impact is any less or more...players are different.

I agree with that but if Dirk team doesn't win then he's 9th in most people's ranking. DH's team was the worst of the elite guys. Dirk's impact on winning is the key to evaluating him. To me he and Rose are very related in that regards. If someone had DH at number one then it is likely they would have Lebron and Wade in the their top 4. Then they are rating players on their all around game and high production.

And of course I keep bringing up the playoffs and the ECF...its the most important time/series of the year. It matters the most.

You don't like Dirk at all which is clear. How would you describe his 07 debating with someone. What would your response be to people constantly bringing up the Warriors series. Do you think it makes sense to just say:

"stop mentioning the most important 6 games of the year"...stop mentioning only the bad. LOL...that is what the elite players are judged off of. Not the regular season in which an average supporting cast and Dirk can run off 67 wins because of attitude and effort.
Josh Howard proved to be the man that year for Dallas in the playoffs. D Rose went down as the captain of his ship. Not the same thing at all. Rose didn't back down like Lebron and Dirk did - turing to others to take on their responsibility as leaders. So the pressure shouldn't be the same. Anybody can start missing but identity crisis and abandoning ship is a different thing altogether. Dirk atoned... . Because the world keeps moving. You don't, but the world does.

Its funny because you constantly bring up the example of the Magic winning the playoff game with Howard not doing a lot...even though he anchors the defense and makes a huge impact on the game no matter how he plays offensively. But you are always bringing that up. What about all the games Rose did nothing and the Bulls won or had great chances to win? We already gave you the stat that you continue to ignore:

The Bulls went 24-7 in games that Rose shot 40% or under. In the playoffs, he shot 39.6% and even worse in the ECF and the Bulls had a chance to win every single game. How? Are you really going to credit Rose for all of that?

Tyson fights Mayweather. Mayweather hits Tyson 1000 times at 99% accuracy Tyson doesn't even hit him back for 11 rounds. But Tyson strategy is to wear him down and win the fight. Efficiency can help you win a game but is inferior to winning. Rose always does something to win the game. And he does it more than anybody else on the team.

A perfect example of this is Dirk in the Finals. In games 4 and 6 Dirk did not do much in my opinion. Obviously in game 4 he was sick, but that doesn't change the fact that he shot 32%, was slow on defense, and didn't create much at all. His teammates played great. Chandler was a beast...Marion played one of his best games in my opinion. Shutting Lebron down and making key buckets. Game 6 Dirk was awful in the first half. 1 of 12 shooting. If he didn't have Terry stepping up big time, that game could have been over. Do you really think its fair to credit Dirk solely for beating the Heat? Dirk didn't play at the level he played most of the playoffs...he struggled in two of the 4 wins pretty badly.

But he did enough to win late and he deserves credit for that...but he was in that position only because he had teammates and coaching that supported him.

In your mind, Rose won all of those regular season games alone. You discount the simple fact that Rose's supporting cast was by far the best defensive supporting cast for a star. You discount Deng's solid two way play all year long...Deng putting in something around 40 mpg iirc. I never said those guys didn't help. I always say Deng is consistent. But when Rose had good shooting help he was highly efficient and he took Lebron in the playoffs before. I like the team but they are offensively challenged in regard to shooting, creating and dribbling. They are great in defense and rebounding.

I don't really care where you rank Rose. I do think ranking Rose right now over Lebron/Wade/Dirk/Howard is really dumb...but after that I don't care all that much.

Rose went thru so much more than those guys, with so much less talent, injuries, new situation and couldn't turn to a guy equal his talent - he overachieved and they underachieved. DH, well you didn't defend him or couldn't defend him here.

But the notion you claim that I'm an idiot for ranking some other guys over Rose is silly. You sell the Bulls supporting cast and coach way short. The evidence is all there that they were actually a great supporting cast. You have to be able to be in a position to win games when your star player plays poorly.
Haha, the Rose scale is that you don't need players to step up, be creative or help you like they did MJ, Russell and KAJ. Rose is supposed to be superior than those guys. LOL, THE ROSE SCALE.

They have everything you need to win a title right now.
THE ROSE SCALE. Faster than a speeding bullet, More independent than MJ. Can beat Superman without help. LOL.

DMAVS41

09-22-2011, 06:37 PM

LOL, where did you get that from??? I judge Lebron the same way you did. I couldn't tell which Jersey he had on in the finals. That was metaphoric so please don't go crazy on the literal meaning.

I agree with that but if Dirk team doesn't win then he's 9th in most people's ranking. DH's team was the worst of the elite guys. Dirk's impact on winning is the key to evaluating him. To me he and Rose are very related in that regards. If someone had DH at number one then it is likely they would have Lebron and Wade in the their top 4. Then they are rating players on their all around game and high production.

Josh Howard proved to be the man that year for Dallas in the playoffs. D Rose went down as the captain of his ship. Not the same thing at all. Rose didn't back down like Lebron and Dirk did - turing to others to take on their responsibility as leaders. So the pressure shouldn't be the same. Anybody can start missing but identity crisis and abandoning ship is a different thing altogether. Dirk atoned... . Because the world keeps moving. You don't, but the world does.

Tyson fights Mayweather. Mayweather hits Tyson 1000 times at 99% accuracy Tyson doesn't even hit him back for 11 rounds. But Tyson strategy is to wear him down and win the fight. Efficiency can help you win a game but is inferior to winning. Rose always does something to win the game. And he does it more than anybody else on the team.

I never said those guys didn't help. I always say Deng is consistent. But when Rose had good shooting help he was highly efficient and he took Lebron in the playoffs before. I like the team but they are offensively challenged in regard to shooting, creating and dribbling. They are great in defense and rebounding.

Rose went thru so much more than those guys, with so much less talent, injuries, new situation and couldn't turn to a guy equal his talent - he overachieved and they underachieved. DH, well you didn't defend him or couldn't defend him here.

Haha, the Rose scale is that you don't need players to step up, be creative or help you like they did MJ, Russell and KAJ. Rose is supposed to be superior than those guys. LOL, THE ROSE SCALE.

THE ROSE SCALE. Faster than a speeding bullet, More independent than MJ. Can beat Superman without help. LOL.

Wow. More and more BS cliches and trying to credit Rose for a bunch of things that we can't measure or see. You say Rose is a great leader. I say he's a terrible leader on the court because he can't manage a game the way a pg should. Who is right? Can't prove either.

Stop saying things like "captain went down with the sinking ship"...etc. It means nothing.

I don't care to debate Rose vs Dirk in the playoffs this year vs 07...but trying to excuse Rose's horrendous play with more idiotic cliches is just silly.

Rose was generally awful overall in the playoffs and absolutely did not do "things" that led to winning. He was atrocious in the ECF and yet his team picked him up and gave him a chance to close the deal in every 4th qtr. He simply couldn't and didn't. Those are just the facts. I don't care how hard a player tries or cares if it doesn't mean anything on the court. With Rose...it meant nothing as he wilted in the most important games of the year. Again...just the facts.

Fact:

Rose played his worst basketball in the 4 most important games of the year. Sorry. I know that must hurt.

You are not objective at all. Everytime you don't have a tangible response you either run to BS excuses about age or fatigue....or throw in some cliche about "heart and soul" or "captain going down with the ship".....You sound like the moron Ric Bucher that claimed he was more convinced than ever Rose was better than Lebron after the ECF.

You two should get together and further your entrenched views that were clearly off and you can both refuse to acknowledge reality together.

Again. 24-7 in the regular season when Rose shoots 40% or worse.

In the playoffs? 2-5. Why? Well, for starters Rose was simply horrendous in a few of those games...but mostly because the playoffs are harder. You can't get by on just effort or any of the intangible BS you constantly spew. You actually have to play well as the leader of a team to win.

But only a Rose homer looks at Rose's ECF performance and cries about help. How about just calling Rose out for wetting the bed. Reality...please come back.

Its not some "Rose scale"...its just the truth. If Rose plays average...the Bulls usually win. Why? Because he's flanked by the best defensive/rebounding teams in the league and clearly one of the best coaches. You don't get to complain about help as the star player when you play like complete shit and barely lose to the 2nd best team in the NBA.

Do you honestly think the Bulls lose that series if Rose shoots 42% for the series and plays just decent in crunch time? Is that really too much to ask out of a player you claim to be elite and one of the 3 best in the league?

Why do you have such low standards for the 3rd best player in the game?

chazzy

09-22-2011, 07:51 PM

catch24

09-22-2011, 07:54 PM

Did I just see someone disregard stats by making a BOXING analogy? No way. That doesn't work at all. You can't be losing by 20 in the 4th quarter and just hit a KNOCKOUT jumper to steal the game away or something :oldlol:

:oldlol:

Not sure what is worse, that or people really thinking Rose BY HIMSELF shut-down Wade in the conference Finals. ISH = where extremes happen

DMAVS41

09-22-2011, 07:54 PM

Did I just see someone disregard stats by making a BOXING analogy? No way. That doesn't work at all. You can't be losing by 20 in the 4th quarter and just hit a KNOCKOUT jumper to steal the game away or something :oldlol:

Yes you did. And apparently that was to explain that Rose shooting 25% doesn't matter because he makes "winning plays"...whatever the hell that means.

But this is coming from the person that describes Rose's ECF as Rose shutting down Wade. That is what he honestly believes should be the tag line/summary of what went on in that series.

Rose just finished his 3rd year. He's already a great player. He has the potential to be an all time great player. He is not, however, currently better than Lebron or Howard like this clown is saying.

ShaqAttack3234

09-22-2011, 08:51 PM

Did I just see someone disregard stats by making a BOXING analogy? No way. That doesn't work at all. You can't be losing by 20 in the 4th quarter and just hit a KNOCKOUT jumper to steal the game away or something :oldlol:

Yeah, even if in the majority of the games where Rose shot poorly, he was winning with great clutch play(and that wasn't the case the majority of the time), wouldn't that mean that his teammates were pretty damn good to keep the game within reach while Rose shot poorly? And to dominate the 4th and still end up shooting under 40% means he'd have had to be shooting extremely poorly before.

But here are the 20 Chicago wins when Rose shot under 40%

11/8/10 vs Denver
12/6/10 vs OKC
12/13/10 vs Indiana
12/15/10 @ Toronto
12/26/10 @ Detroit
12/31/10 vs New Jersey
1/17/11 @ Memphis
1/20/11 vs Dallas
1/24/11 vs Milwaukee
1/28/11 vs Orlando
2/15/11 vs Charlotte
2/24/11 vs Miami
2/26/11 vs Milwaukee
3/7/11 vs New Orleans
3/11/11 vs Atlanta
3/15/11 vs Washington
3/17/11 @ New Jersey
3/25/11 vs Memphis
3/30/11 @ Minnesota
4/13/11 vs new Jersey

Anyone can look up the 4th quarters on ESPNs play by plays. They'll see what I did, which is a few impressive 4th quarters, but even more where Chicago had a comfortable lead heading into the 4th, or games where Rose didn't do anything of note in the 4th.

And as DMavs said, throw in the 5 games where Rose shot an even 40% and it's a 24-7 record in games when he shot 40% or worse.

And what exactly is so crazy about my statement that Chicago would win 47-48 games without Rose, if not more?

Milwaukee went 46-36 in 2010 and they were the 8th worst offensive team. But they were the 2nd best defensive team(though not as good as Chicago defensively) and they didn't dominate their opponents on the boards like Chicago. They were pretty much even with their opponents on average unlike Chicago who outrebounded opponents by a phenomenal 5.7 rpg.

Yes, their offense would be mediocre, but 30-35 wins is laughable when you defend and rebound that well, just ask the 2010 Bucks, who as I pointed out didn't rebound nearly as well, or even defend as well as Chicago.

:oldlol:

Not sure what is worse, that or people really thinking Rose BY HIMSELF shut-down Wade in the conference Finals. ISH = where extremes happen

Yeah, he just makes shit up and acts as if everyone should accept that something happened because he did. Just like his opinion that Orlando didn't win more because Dwight was "detached" from his teammates.

Or him insisting that the 1 game where Dwight wasn't productive and Orlando played well somehow proves a lot, despite a 1 game sample size being almost useless(especially with significantly larger sample sizes for Chicago winning when Rose struggled).

Even if Howard's teammates would play better offensively without him(and it's possible), the team sure as hell wouldn't be better off offensively without him. You'd have no offensive rebounding, no first option(or even reliable second option caliber player) and nobody you even have to think about double teaming. You'd end up relying on 3s exclusively, which is not a reliable way to win. And then with that type of unreliable offense, you'd also be taking away that top 3 defense since I don't think anyone believes that Orlando would be any better than average at best defensively without him.

Everything points to Orlando struggling more without Howard than Chicago without Rose. Whether it be logic, such as the above paragraph about Orlando and the points about Chicago's defense and rebounding, or even if you look at how each team performed when each star was off the court.

Plus/minus can be flawed, but it's useful as well and these numbers make perfect sense.

Orlando with Howard on the court: +8.1
Orlando without Howard: -2.3

And I'd be that they played even worse without Howard after the Gortat trade.

Chicago with Rose on the court: +7.9
Chicago with Rose off the court: +5.2

That along with everything else suggests that Rose has a damn good cast. Unfortunately, most people lack the intelligence to actually look into how a team is built, and how they succeed to properly evaluate how good a cast is. They just look at how much star power that team has and base their opinion on that.

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 08:52 PM

Did I just see someone disregard stats by making a BOXING analogy? No way. That doesn't work at all. You can't be losing by 20 in the 4th quarter and just hit a KNOCKOUT jumper to steal the game away or something :oldlol:

:roll: the emphasis was that he wore him out, and that was his strategy. I intentionally never said he knocked him out. Mayweather could have quit after exhausting himself! Nonetheless, I was talking about the way deceptive things can happen for a desired outcome.

"Tyson fights Mayweather. Mayweather hits Tyson 1000 times at 99% accuracy Tyson doesn't even hit him back for 11 rounds. But Tyson strategy is to wear him down and win the fight. Efficiency can help you win a game but is inferior to winning.

They never taught you how to read metaphoric language in school?

DMAVS41

09-22-2011, 09:26 PM

:roll: the emphasis was that he wore him out, and that was his strategy. I intentionally never said he knocked him out. Mayweather could have quit after exhausting himself! Nonetheless, I was talking about the way deceptive things can happen for a desired outcome.

"Tyson fights Mayweather. Mayweather hits Tyson 1000 times at 99% accuracy Tyson doesn't even hit him back for 11 rounds. But Tyson strategy is to wear him down and win the fight. Efficiency can help you win a game but is inferior to winning.

They never taught you how to read metaphoric language in school?

You aren't going to win many games or series with your best player/scorer shooting under 40%.

I love how Rose homers want to pretend one of the most important...if not the most important...measures doesn't matter because their favorite player has:

"heart and soul"...or whatever BS cliche you throw out this time.

Now "winning" is something you've deemed Rose to have. LOL...you sound like Charlie Sheen:facepalm

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 11:43 PM

Yeah, even if in the majority of the games where Rose shot poorly, he was winning with great clutch play(and that wasn't the case the majority of the time), wouldn't that mean that his teammates were pretty damn good to keep the game within reach while Rose shot poorly? And to dominate the 4th and still end up shooting under 40% means he'd have had to be shooting extremely poorly before.

But here are the 20 Chicago wins when Rose shot under 40%

11/8/10 vs Denver
12/6/10 vs OKC
12/13/10 vs Indiana
12/15/10 @ Toronto
12/26/10 @ Detroit
12/31/10 vs New Jersey
1/17/11 @ Memphis
1/20/11 vs Dallas
1/24/11 vs Milwaukee
1/28/11 vs Orlando
2/15/11 vs Charlotte
2/24/11 vs Miami
2/26/11 vs Milwaukee
3/7/11 vs New Orleans
3/11/11 vs Atlanta
3/15/11 vs Washington
3/17/11 @ New Jersey
3/25/11 vs Memphis
3/30/11 @ Minnesota
4/13/11 vs new Jersey

Anyone can look up the 4th quarters on ESPNs play by plays. They'll see what I did, which is a few impressive 4th quarters, but even more where Chicago had a comfortable lead heading into the 4th, or games where Rose didn't do anything of note in the 4th.

And as DMavs said, throw in the 5 games where Rose shot an even 40% and it's a 24-7 record in games when he shot 40% or worse.

Those play by play were disabled in July - I don't think they put them back up. They work for you???

So who won those games then Shaq Attack??? When you saw how sucky those teams were you should have known I was going to clown you for waisting your time. But I truely believe this is how you see games. When Rose is missing a lot, offensive rebounds happen. He still puts pressure on the teams. Yall are trying so hard to disprove me that you are missing pretty big points in your argument.

Why address the sucky teams? If anything this list proves that he knows on who to miss against. It defeats your own point when teams are this bad and they are playing them at home. Did you consider that? A cohesive team will usually beat a bad team. I actually thought there were good teams on the list but lets look.

When Chicago beat Dallas they didn't have Boozer or Noah. And Deng had seven points. Rose had 29 and nobody else was in double figures. You think Dallas didn't know where the ball was going? Who do you think they went to???

In Orlando Rose had bad Ulcers still he made key plays when the Bulls won that game in the third quarter. One of the best games where Booze and Deng went off together, tho.

With Miami I hope you seen that game. Yes Rose was the deciding factor in this close one. So in the only qualifying ones Rose was responsible for winning the games in the key points in the game.

Still you think sombody else was the man in those games. I'm sure there maybe four or five but Rose is doing much more than you are suggesting he isn't.

And what exactly is so crazy about my statement that Chicago would win 47-48 games without Rose, if not more?

Milwaukee went 46-36 in 2010 and they were the 8th worst offensive team. But they were the 2nd best defensive team(though not as good as Chicago defensively) and they didn't dominate their opponents on the boards like Chicago. They were pretty much even with their opponents on average unlike Chicago who outrebounded opponents by a phenomenal 5.7 rpg.

Yes, their offense would be mediocre, but 30-35 wins is laughable when you defend and rebound that well, just ask the 2010 Bucks, who as I pointed out didn't rebound nearly as well, or even defend as well as Chicago.

Milwaukee was healthy and had creative players and explosive players which are great for close games. Chicago doesn't have that without Rose. Deng had one game over 30 points without the defensive team focusing on him. Deng is who he is 17 ppg is his stable. Booze was hurt for a minute and playbook was hard on him. Booze has some creativity but the well seemingly runs dry after awhile. Not the same thing at all.

Yeah, he just makes shit up and acts as if everyone should accept that something happened because he did. Just like his opinion that Orlando didn't win more because Dwight was "detached" from his teammates.

Or him insisting that the 1 game where Dwight wasn't productive and Orlando played well somehow proves a lot, despite a 1 game sample size being almost useless(especially with significantly larger sample sizes for Chicago winning when Rose struggled).
The one game where he was out of the way was the best big game they played since March 1st without question. Their only dominating performance of a decent team in that whole span. And when they played him one on one the Magic lost convincingly. Rose playing bad against bad teams and good against good teams is very different.

Even if Howard's teammates would play better offensively without him(and it's possible), the team sure as hell wouldn't be better off offensively without him. You'd have no offensive rebounding, no first option(or even reliable second option caliber player) and nobody you even have to think about double teaming. You'd end up relying on 3s exclusively, which is not a reliable way to win. And then with that type of unreliable offense, you'd also be taking away that top 3 defense since I don't think anyone believes that Orlando would be any better than average at best defensively without him.

Everything points to Orlando struggling more without Howard than Chicago without Rose. Whether it be logic, such as the above paragraph about Orlando and the points about Chicago's defense and rebounding, or even if you look at how each team performed when each star was off the court.

Plus/minus can be flawed, but it's useful as well and these numbers make perfect sense.

Orlando with Howard on the court: +8.1
Orlando without Howard: -2.3

And I'd be that they played even worse without Howard after the Gortat trade.

Chicago with Rose on the court: +7.9
Chicago with Rose off the court: +5.2

That along with everything else suggests that Rose has a damn good cast. Unfortunately, most people lack the intelligence to actually look into how a team is built, and how they succeed to properly evaluate how good a cast is. They just look at how much star power that team has and base their opinion on that.

Chicago grinds you out and doesn't mind a close game so +/- with them never works right. Actually, I think Howard has a much greater +/- than you mentioned here. On the same token he had a tem built around him for three years and they took it away.

Chicago is constructed good. Rose, Deng and Noah are very complimentrary. But Noah's year was medicore this year - He has allstar potential but was no where near even when healthy this year. Noah shot 31% in the finals and a lot of that was at point blank range. Most Bulls fans would like to get rid of Boozer, Brewer isn't really a starter. But the bench is solid but the backcourt is kind of weak.

Warriors fan

09-22-2011, 11:49 PM

http://alturl.com/*****

Pointguard

09-22-2011, 11:58 PM

Rose just finished his 3rd year. He's already a great player. He has the potential to be an all time great player. He is not, however, currently better than Lebron or Howard like this clown is saying.
Trying to get more cellmates? Why ask me for a list if you can't read it? Wow.

SCdac

09-23-2011, 12:21 AM

Still you think sombody else was the man in those games. I'm sure there maybe four or five but Rose is doing much more than you are suggesting he isn't.

That seems to be the main theme with Rose detractors... I mean, it's not like we're talking about the starting point guard who played more minutes than like only 8 other players in the league... or almost lead the league in usage-% (#2 behind only Kobe)... and scored more than any other player in the league not name Kobe, Lebron, or Durant... You'd think Rose' role was more liken to Tony Parker of 2005 by some of these descriptions (pre-all star Parker, who wasn't a .50 FG% shooter really, and had a broken jump shot) who was being carried by his team's D more often than not... only difference is, Rose averaged almost 10 more ppg and 2 apg for his team than Parker did! Not only that, but his individual defense (isolations, pick and rolls, etc) for his position was some of the best in the league... It's funny how clouded some of the posters become when looking at solely a player's FG%.

DMAVS41

09-23-2011, 01:28 AM

Trying to get more cellmates? Why ask me for a list if you can't read it? Wow.

Your ranked Rose ahead of both Lebron and Howard you moron.

The only two players you put ahead of Rose were Wade and Dirk....and I'm sure there is some BS excuse or cliche you have planned to explain why Rose wasn't the best player.

Just stop it already.

ShaqAttack3234

09-23-2011, 01:30 AM

Those play by play were disabled in July - I don't think they put them back up. They work for you???

Yeah, the play by plays for each quarter work back to 2002(though some of the games don't appear for way back then).

So who won those games then Shaq Attack???

Their defense, as I've been saying. Which isn't to say that Rose didn't carry Chicago at times, because he obviously shot much better than these games a lot of the time. But my point isn't that Rose hurt Chicago on average, or that he isn't a top 10 player and their single best player.

My point is that he doesn't have to carry them and have great games nightly, and that their defense deserves a ton of the credit for Chicago's success.

When you saw how sucky those teams were you should have known I was going to clown you for waisting your time. But I truely believe this is how you see games.

:cry:

When Rose is missing a lot, offensive rebounds happen. He still puts pressure on the teams. Yall are trying so hard to disprove me that you are missing pretty big points in your argument.

That's true to some extent, but you need good rebounders to pull that off, and even so, to give a player so much credit for missing shots is a stretch. I'll acknowledge that it does open some offensive rebounding opportunities, but what about defensive rebounding? They seem pretty damn good there as well.

Why address the sucky teams? If anything this list proves that he knows on who to miss against.

:roll: What the hell is this trash? Are you suggesting that Rose goes, "eh, this team sucks, I'm not going to try to make as many tonight". If so, then that's a pretty bad attitude for your MVP, particularly when he could use some more makes when he can't crack 40%. And what does that say about Rose if he's shooting under 40% so often vs mediocre teams?

And there were a lot more good teams thrown in there than the 3 you mentioned such as OKC, Denver, Memphis(twice), Atlanta, New Orleans, Indiana and the 3 you mentioned are all playoff teams.

When Chicago beat Dallas they didn't have Boozer or Noah. And Deng had seven points. Rose had 29 and nobody else was in double figures. You think Dallas didn't know where the ball was going? Who do you think they went to???

Rose had 26 points....on 9/28 shooting. :facepalm

Chicago held Dallas to 77 points on 35.6% shooting, outrebounded them 51-41 and won the defensive rebounding battle 34-32. You don't need much offense when your team is playing like that at the other end. Just chuck up almost 30 shots and hope you make some, that 9/28 shooting seems like he did it.

In Orlando Rose had bad Ulcers still he made key plays when the Bulls won that game in the third quarter. One of the best games where Booze and Deng went off together, tho.

Not to mention holding Orlando to 90 points on 41% shooting, outrebounding them 54-40 despite 15 boards from Howard, and outrebounding them on the defensive glass by a 38-33 margin.

This is an example of how much more help Rose had than Howard, especially since you like 1 game sample sizes so much.

Howard has 40 points, 15 boards, 3 assists, 3 blocks and 4 steals on phenomenal efficiency(14/20 FG, 12/16) and turnovers can't even be used against him in this game since he had just 3.

Yet he still loses to Rose's team by 9.

With Miami I hope you seen that game. Yes Rose was the deciding factor in this close one. So in the only qualifying ones Rose was responsible for winning the games in the key points in the game.

Bosh shooting 1/18 didn't hurt either, and once again, check out Chicago's defense and rebounding in this game.

Holds Miami to 89 points on 40.5% shooting, outrebounds them 54-50, and they grabbed 40 defensive rebounds to Miami's 33.

Still you think sombody else was the man in those games. I'm sure there maybe four or five but Rose is doing much more than you are suggesting he isn't.

Rose is easily Chicago's best offensive player, and best player overall, that's not what I've been arguing with.

Milwaukee was healthy and had creative players and explosive players which are great for close games. Chicago doesn't have that without Rose. Deng had one game over 30 points without the defensive team focusing on him. Deng is who he is 17 ppg is his stable. Booze was hurt for a minute and playbook was hard on him. Booze has some creativity but the well seemingly runs dry after awhile. Not the same thing at all.

But an even better defensive and rebounding team(which is why Milwaukee was good), even if their offense was slightly worse(and that's possible, though it may not be), then they'd still win a similar amount, imo.

The one game where he was out of the way was the best big game they played since March 1st without question. Their only dominating performance of a decent team in that whole span. And when they played him one on one the Magic lost convincingly. Rose playing bad against bad teams and good against good teams is very different.

One game really doesn't mean much to me, I've mentioned why that team could not succeed over a significant period of time without him. No inside presence, no defense, no true 1st option or even 2nd option caliber player and a reliance on 3s, which will make you very inconsistent.

The Larger sample sizes(4 full games without Howard and +/- during the season support this).

Chicago grinds you out and doesn't mind a close game so +/- with them never works right. Actually, I think Howard has a much greater +/- than you mentioned here. On the same token he had a tem built around him for three years and they took it away.

So wouldn't that support Howard for MVP? With all of the problems Orlando had, and all of the lineup changes, they still won 52 games, and really didn't have great chemistry, complimentary players that fit well around Howard or a defined playing style, but got a really respectable win total with Howard carrying them.

Chicago is constructed good. Rose, Deng and Noah are very complimentrary. But Noah's year was medicore this year - He has allstar potential but was no where near even when healthy this year. Noah shot 31% in the finals and a lot of that was at point blank range. Most Bulls fans would like to get rid of Boozer, Brewer isn't really a starter. But the bench is solid but the backcourt is kind of weak.

I agree with this, and some argued that Chicago was better off without Boozer because they had a better defensive team without him. He is a good player, though, so I'd wait to see what they do this season, but I'm not sure he's the best fit there myself. I like a core of Noah, Deng and Rose going forward, and the much speculated acquisition of Jason Richardson would help as well.

NumberSix

09-23-2011, 10:10 AM

I would say that Rose is over rated, but NOBODY actually thinks he's the best player in the league, so whatever.

Pointguard

09-23-2011, 12:43 PM

Yeah, the play by plays for each quarter work back to 2002(though some of the games don't appear for way back then).

Their defense, as I've been saying. Which isn't to say that Rose didn't carry Chicago at times, because he obviously shot much better than these games a lot of the time. But my point isn't that Rose hurt Chicago on average, or that he isn't a top 10 player and their single best player.

My point is that he doesn't have to carry them and have great games nightly, and that their defense deserves a ton of the credit for Chicago's success.

I never said anything any different. Rose is the third best defender of the starters and their best backcourt defender and best backcourt rebounder. And they play defense and rebound as a unit.

:roll: What the hell is this trash? Are you suggesting that Rose goes, "eh, this team sucks, I'm not going to try to make as many tonight". If so, then that's a pretty bad attitude for your MVP, particularly when he could use some more makes when he can't crack 40%. And what does that say about Rose if he's shooting under 40% so often vs mediocre teams?
LOL, that he knows who to miss them against??? Maybe he's practicing his three or his superior left hand. Its a heck of a lot better than DH flat out not taking shots against good teams in important games once the Ides of March kicked in. Maybe Rose's goal is to win the game and not care so much about his shooting percentage. Maybe in games won by the third quarter, as your research suggest, he isn't as focused. In the end it doesn't matter and is of no consequence.

Rose had 26 points....on 9/28 shooting. :facepalm

Chicago held Dallas to 77 points on 35.6% shooting, outrebounded them 51-41 and won the defensive rebounding battle 34-32. You don't need much offense when your team is playing like that at the other end. Just chuck up almost 30 shots and hope you make some, that 9/28 shooting seems like he did it.

So all of that is more important than nobody else getting double figures. The second and third best players out, with Deng not making shots??? Brewer as the only regular starter and he's not scoring to boot? So it all falls on one starter to score. It was a close game and Rose made the shots that counted in the end. That's my argument.

Not to mention holding Orlando to 90 points on 41% shooting, outrebounding them 54-40 despite 15 boards from Howard, and outrebounding them on the defensive glass by a 38-33 margin.

This is an example of how much more help Rose had than Howard, especially since you like 1 game sample sizes so much.
Howard has 40 points, 15 boards, 3 assists, 3 blocks and 4 steals on phenomenal efficiency(14/20 FG, 12/16) and turnovers can't even be used against him in this game since he had just 3.

Yet he still loses to Rose's team by 9.
Rose has more help than Howard for sure. Howard to me, only has comp from Lebron as far as individual production, all around game and superb play on both sides of the ball. But help isn't an argument that yall use much at all when comparing Rose to Lebron, Wade, Durant etc. I just ask for consistency.

Bosh shooting 1/18 didn't hurt either, and once again, check out Chicago's defense and rebounding in this game.

Holds Miami to 89 points on 40.5% shooting, outrebounds them 54-50, and they grabbed 40 defensive rebounds to Miami's 33.
Yep, the Bulls wear you down and then... . This is the best case of needing a finisher. Did you see the game? They expended a lot of resources on controlling Rose. Their front line was consistently out of position trying to pursue Rose.

One game really doesn't mean much to me, I've mentioned why that team could not succeed over a significant period of time without him. No inside presence, no defense, no true 1st option or even 2nd option caliber player and a reliance on 3s, which will make you very inconsistent.

The Larger sample sizes(4 full games without Howard and +/- during the season support this).

So wouldn't that support Howard for MVP? With all of the problems Orlando had, and all of the lineup changes, they still won 52 games, and really didn't have great chemistry, complimentary players that fit well around Howard or a defined playing style, but got a really respectable win total with Howard carrying them.
Agreed. The team change was wild. The team was built around him and the new team didn't really know their roles. To be honest I thought they kind of rebelled or were not used to playing around a player to this extent. A sacrificial year for DH in the end. If you don't finish strong, and that was on him, it leaves a bad taste in people's mouth. And then when he dominated bad teams and wasn't much against the good, he kind of looks like a bully. The end of the season kind of betrayed a good year - some of it on the GM's, some of it on him. I think DH and Rose would beat Lebron and Wade. Heck any other combo out there if the rest of the team is equal.

I agree with this, and some argued that Chicago was better off without Boozer because they had a better defensive team without him. He is a good player, though, so I'd wait to see what they do this season, but I'm not sure he's the best fit there myself. I like a core of Noah, Deng and Rose going forward, and the much speculated acquisition of Jason Richardson would help as well.
I wonder if J Rich is disciplined enough? He can be a smaller version of Boozer in being a distraction and a kind of out of the mix presence. I read somewhere the Bulls are buffing Rose up with weight training. So expect more missing; Nothing ruins a soft touch (his floaters) than buffing up. I hear this is in efforts to put him in the post? Hope this isn't true. Stuckey is to be pursued as a combo guard moreso than R Hamilton. Kind of makes sense on the grind game but seems weird.

The Bulls are a great rebounding and defensive team. This type of play is very complimentrary to Rose's insistent forrays on the other teams defense. Teams, can't let up anywhere on the court because the Bulls are 48 minutes of pressure and exhausting your resources. It usually becomes a grind of low quality shots. I am not convinced they can win any other way.

DMAVS41

09-23-2011, 12:49 PM

So lets get this straight:

1. Now PG is claiming that Rose purposely plays poorly against "sucky" teams because he knows they can still win.

2. Rose deserves to not have his misses counted the same way as others because it opens up offensive rebounding. What? This is true with every single star player/scorer. They draw extra attention and when they miss....there is an added chance (albeit a very small addition) that their team secures an offensive rebound. However, a team has to have good to great rebounders in the first place to accomplish what he is talking about.

3. Now PG is claiming that Rose beat the Mavs by himself. What? The Bulls beat the Mavs twice. In the first game Rose had 22 points on 8 of 17 shooting. He had 4 boards and 6 assists. Rose had a solid game and a very good 4th qtr IIRC...I think he made some big free throws late. Anyway, the Bulls won by 5. What was the difference in the game? Well, for starters the Bulls held all of the Mavs outside of Dirk to 30% shooting and only 15 made field goals for the game. They also out rebounded the Mavs 59 to 34. 20 to 9 on the offensive glass and 39 to 25 on the defensive glass. LOL.....defense and rebounding was the difference....Oviously.

In the 2nd game the two teams played Rose had 26 points on 9 of 28 shooting. The Bulls won by 5 again and once again dominated the game defensively and on the glass. They held the Mavs to 35.6% shooting as a team and won the battle on the offensive boards 17 to 9 and overall 51 to 31. In a tight game, getting beat that badly on the glass is all it takes. Its over.

Once again another game and another game won primarily by the defense and rebounding of the Bulls. And we aren't even saying Rose isn't a part of those things at times. He is. He's their best player and makes a huge impact every night. But to sit here and act like the Bulls got to 62 wins because Rose put up 25 a night on average efficiency is just laughable. They got to 62 wins because they were the best defensive team in the league combined with the best rebounding team in the league...and because Rose had a great year and played well in the 4th qtrs in the regular season (the playoffs was a whole different story)

But this begs the question. What would other star players do with a team like that? What would CP3 do with a team like that..that can keep games close no matter how bad the offense is? For starters, Paul is a much better late game player than Rose. Or Deron Williams? Or Durant? Or Westbrook? Or Melo?

You rank Rose over Lebron and yet we saw Lebron win more in the regular season with teams not as talented or well coached before. And nothing supports Rose over Lebron individually at all. Lebron is simply better at almost everything that can be measured.

Also, I don't know how many games the Bulls would have won without Rose. I do know it would not have been 30. But that really isn't the debate. We all know Rose adds a ton of wins to a team like that. So would other star players though. Its not like you would take Rose off and give them nothing. We are comparing Rose to other elite players. And the whole basis of your argument is the "Charlie Sheen"....that Rose has the "winning" quality. Really when you boil it down that is all you have. You don't have really anything that can be measured on your side. So you resort to cliches and "heart and soul" "captain" "winner"...and all that other BS.

Well guess what, I think some other elite players have all that stuff as well. And I think they are better basketball players....LOL...which is actually what matters.

tontoz

09-23-2011, 02:24 PM

I like Rose but i definitely think he was chucking too much in the playoffs.

ShaqAttack3234

09-23-2011, 03:50 PM

I never said anything any different. Rose is the third best defender of the starters and their best backcourt defender and best backcourt rebounder. And they play defense and rebound as a unit.

As far as starters? I'd have him 4th best defensively behind Deng, Noah and Bogans. But they have good depth defensively as well with Taj Gibson coming off the bench and playing 22 mpg, Kurt Thomas playing 23 mpg off the bench and Ronnie Brewer playing 21 mpg off the bench.

LOL, that he knows who to miss them against??? Maybe he's practicing his three or his superior left hand. Its a heck of a lot better than DH flat out not taking shots against good teams in important games once the Ides of March kicked in. Maybe Rose's goal is to win the game and not care so much about his shooting percentage. Maybe in games won by the third quarter, as your research suggest, he isn't as focused. In the end it doesn't matter and is of no consequence.

I'm not suggesting that Rose should care about shooting percentage, the whole point was that they could win when he struggles.

So all of that is more important than nobody else getting double figures. The second and third best players out, with Deng not making shots??? Brewer as the only regular starter and he's not scoring to boot? So it all falls on one starter to score. It was a close game and Rose made the shots that counted in the end. That's my argument.

I just think that it's relevant to how they won with nobody else in double figures. That kind of shut down defensive performance and dominant rebounding is important to mention.

Rose has more help than Howard for sure. Howard to me, only has comp from Lebron as far as individual production, all around game and superb play on both sides of the ball. But help isn't an argument that yall use much at all when comparing Rose to Lebron, Wade, Durant etc. I just ask for consistency.

Ok fair enough, Lebron and Wade as well as Durant obviously have talent with them. If you want to use that for them as an MVP debate that's fine, though it's different than best player.

It also comes down to how well coached a team is and how well they're built, which can be hard to measure, and is very subjective.

For example, when talking about MVP(and Howard was my choice over both), look at Lebron vs Rose. Lebron playing with a top 4 player, a top 15 type player in Bosh, good shooters and a good team defense seems like more of a luxury than any of the other top players have.

But Lebron also performed at arguably a higher level than anyone elese individually, and when comparing his cast to Rose, I question how much more help he really had for 2 reasons. 1 is that he Lebron performed better in every aspect of the game and won less, and then you have the conference ifnals when Lebron was very good, Rose struggled and Chicago was still competitive in those games.

It probably has to do more with Rose's cast being a better fit around him than Lebron, despite Lebron having more talent on his team.

Yep, the Bulls wear you down and then... . This is the best case of needing a finisher. Did you see the game? They expended a lot of resources on controlling Rose. Their front line was consistently out of position trying to pursue Rose.

I think that's the case with most stars.

Agreed. The team change was wild. The team was built around him and the new team didn't really know their roles. To be honest I thought they kind of rebelled or were not used to playing around a player to this extent. A sacrificial year for DH in the end. If you don't finish strong, and that was on him, it leaves a bad taste in people's mouth. And then when he dominated bad teams and wasn't much against the good, he kind of looks like a bully. The end of the season kind of betrayed a good year - some of it on the GM's, some of it on him. I think DH and Rose would beat Lebron and Wade. Heck any other combo out there if the rest of the team is equal.

Well, Howard did have some big games against good teams as well, such as the 40/15/3/4 game vs Chicago, or the 40/15/6 game vs OKC, 39/18 vs OKC, 39/15/3 vs Portland, 33/13 vs Boston, 31/13/3/3, 26/23 vs Dallas

I wonder if J Rich is disciplined enough? He can be a smaller version of Boozer in being a distraction and a kind of out of the mix presence. I read somewhere the Bulls are buffing Rose up with weight training. So expect more missing; Nothing ruins a soft touch (his floaters) than buffing up. I hear this is in efforts to put him in the post? Hope this isn't true. Stuckey is to be pursued as a combo guard moreso than R Hamilton. Kind of makes sense on the grind game but seems weird.

I'm not convinced Richardson is the right guy, but he might work out. He'd give them a good scorer in the back court and a guy who can have big nights due to his 3 point shooting. But he relies on the 3 a lot. Maybe that could work on Chicago with their rebounding. He could've been better than he is though, imo. He never developed his ball handling skills enough or became a good enough free throw shooter to truly become one of the league's elite scorers, which I believe he was capable of with his athleticism and 3 point shooting.

The Bulls are a great rebounding and defensive team. This type of play is very complimentrary to Rose's insistent forrays on the other teams defense. Teams, can't let up anywhere on the court because the Bulls are 48 minutes of pressure and exhausting your resources. It usually becomes a grind of low quality shots. I am not convinced they can win any other way.

Yeah, not unlike Iverson's Sixers when Larry Brown coached them. Which is why they may be better off with Gibson instead of Boozer because he's a much better defender.

Pointguard

09-23-2011, 05:56 PM

As far as starters? I'd have him 4th best defensively behind Deng, Noah and Bogans. But they have good depth defensively as well with Taj Gibson coming off the bench and playing 22 mpg, Kurt Thomas playing 23 mpg off the bench and Ronnie Brewer playing 21 mpg off the bench.
I think they have to justify his presence and tell him to go all out on defense but Rose, could even guard the two spot better than Bogans. Priorities sometimes get in the way and Rose doesn't expend the same kind of energy, but Rose is better in nearly every other way defensively. In a 48 minute game you can't really justify Bogans as being a better defender even if he had the reflexes and ability to keep a player in front of him - which he doesn't - at least not at the level of Rose. I don't know where you got that from.

Ok fair enough, Lebron and Wade as well as Durant obviously have talent with them. If you want to use that for them as an MVP debate that's fine, though it's different than best player.

It also comes down to how well coached a team is and how well they're built, which can be hard to measure, and is very subjective.

For example, when talking about MVP(and Howard was my choice over both), look at Lebron vs Rose. Lebron playing with a top 4 player, a top 15 type player in Bosh, good shooters and a good team defense seems like more of a luxury than any of the other top players have.

But Lebron also performed at arguably a higher level than anyone elese individually, and when comparing his cast to Rose, I question how much more help he really had for 2 reasons. 1 is that he Lebron performed better in every aspect of the game and won less, and then you have the conference ifnals when Lebron was very good, Rose struggled and Chicago was still competitive in those games.

It probably has to do more with Rose's cast being a better fit around him than Lebron, despite Lebron having more talent on his team.
Rose's team constantly changed around him, unless you are saying everybody is good fit around Rose? Only Dwight arguable could have went thru as big of change(s). Chicago stayed steady and was way more consistent than any team by a pretty big margin, despite their numerous changes and young players. Players go thru changes and adapt. The center and powerforward position were replaceable. The two guard was also interchangeable. So now it balls down to Deng and Rose as the players holding it together. And that they did.

I think that's the case with most stars.

No, there is attention and then there is real attention. Only two players can start at the top of the key and constantly get to the rim in half court sets(Rose moreso than Wade). Coaches call it a break down - a defensive collapse. Even Lebron had sometype of problem with it this year. You use your resources to the extreme to prevent a collapse. You panic over a collapse. Its demoralizing. Other offensive guys you simply help defend.

Well, Howard did have some big games against good teams as well, such as the 40/15/3/4 game vs Chicago, or the 40/15/6 game vs OKC, 39/18 vs OKC, 39/15/3 vs Portland, 33/13 vs Boston, 31/13/3/3, 26/23 vs Dallas But why do I know it wasn't later in the year?

I'm not convinced Richardson is the right guy, but he might work out. He'd give them a good scorer in the back court and a guy who can have big nights due to his 3 point shooting. But he relies on the 3 a lot. Maybe that could work on Chicago with their rebounding. He could've been better than he is though, imo. He never developed his ball handling skills enough or became a good enough free throw shooter to truly become one of the league's elite scorers, which I believe he was capable of with his athleticism and 3 point shooting.

Yeah, not unlike Iverson's Sixers when Larry Brown coached them. Which is why they may be better off with Gibson instead of Boozer because he's a much better defender.
But Booze was brought in for offense which they do need. That has to be addressed. Nobod is going to take Booze with the new CBA - not that we know what it is but - he's probably the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.