Has Scoring Become Undervalued Here?

[IGOTGAME]

With the enhanced use of advanced stats and increased reliance on box scores I have come to realize that scoring has become somewhat undervalued.

Many posters here seem to think that scoring a lot is a bad thing. But when is the last time a pass first point guard was the best player on a championship team. Thought so. It isn't coincidence, it is because of the nature of the game.

My question is, why has this sudden shift occurred? Is it because people don't understand the game and must rely on advanced stats or because they feel the need to down scoring to feel elitist?

[ThaRegul8r]

Im starting to notice a huge problem on this board. And that's dimissing players that can truly takeover a game scoring.

Really? A player's value on this board seems to be solely determined by whether or not he can takeover a game by scoring a lot of points.

I don't know where in the world this sentiment is coming from. Just because of one discussion on point guards, suddenly scoring has become "undervalued," when it's always been the #1 criteria for evaluating players by "most people."

:facepalm

[IGOTGAME]

I don't know where in the world this sentiment is coming from. Just because of one discussion on point guards, suddenly scoring has become "undervalued," when it's always been the #1 criteria for evaluating players by "most people."

:facepalm

post the opinion of one person and assume it = majority opinion.

:no: :facepalm

and actually this has been going on for years here.

[Inactive]

Huh? Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Dirk, Dwight... All of the most popular players on this site are prolific scorers.

If all that you can do is score a lot of points, on low efficiency, then that is a bad thing, and it always has been.

[IGOTGAME]

Huh? Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Dirk, Dwight... All of the most popular players on this site are prolific scorers.

If all that you can do is score a lot of points, on low efficiency, then that is a bad thing, and it always has been.

Then we go back historically and look at Stockton, Nash, Wilt, Isiah and KG and look how how they are discussed. There lack of takeover ability is either overlooked or there takeover ability is disregarded.

Even look at how DRose is talked about here or Allen Iverson.

[DRose1899]

Huh? Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Dirk, Dwight... All of the most popular players on this site are prolific scorers.

If all that you can do is score a lot of points, on low efficiency, then that is a bad thing, and it always has been.
There's also opinion like "Reggie Miller/Dirk (or insert name) can only score"
Which can be pretty dumb as well.

[Smoke117]

Scoring...undervalued...HERE!? Hilarious thread.

[IGOTGAME]

Scoring...undervalued...HERE!? Hilarious thread.

really....

A place who constantly undervalues Allen Iverson greatness.

A place who constantly acts as though I. Thomas ability to take over games meant nothing because if other pgs felt like it they could do the same.

A place that pretends that if a player can score 15 points on good efficiency that he could automatically score 25 ppg when needed on decent efficiency.

A place that constantly goes at DRose for scoring on bad efficiency while he leads his team to wins.

A place that rated John Stockton over Kobe Bryant.

Come on, lets be real here.

[DRose1899]

Scoring...undervalued...HERE!? Hilarious thread.
Yeah, I see it many times on here people use that kind of argument to disregard player like Reggie, Dirk or AI. :rolleyes:

[Inactive]

Then we go back historically and look at Stockton, Nash, Wilt, Isiah and KG and look how how they are discussed. There lack of takeover ability is either overlooked or there takeover ability is disregarded.

Even look at how DRose is talked about here or Allen Iverson.I'm assuming that when you say "takeover ability", you mean the ability to score off isolations, outside of the team game? That's always been controversial. You're as likely to destroy team chemistry, and shoot them out of the game, as you are to be a hero, and win it.

[ThaRegul8r]

post the opinion of one person and assume it = majority opinion.

:no: :facepalm

Get the emoticons out of here and improve your reading comprehension. I said nothing about "majority opinion." I posted that quote because you're now the second person today to express that general sentiment, and I'm wondering where this is coming from, when the #1 criteria for evaluating players here has always been whether or not they were a volume scorer and could takeover a game by scoring a lot of points.

It's not surprising that the average SAT reading scores are now the lowest on record.

[IGOTGAME]

I'm assuming that when you say "takeover ability", you mean the ability to score off isolations, outside of the team game? That's always been controversial. You're as likely to destroy team chemistry, and shoot them out of the game, as you are to be a hero, and win it.

that, as well as the ability to score in a high volume.

[ThaRegul8r]

Then we go back historically and look at Stockton, Nash, Wilt, Isiah and KG and look how how they are discussed. There lack of takeover ability is either overlooked or there takeover ability is disregarded.

Really? Wilt's always been ripped for his scoring dropping in the playoffs, and the knock on Garnett has always been that he isn't a "takeover scorer."

It's like this is Bizarro land now.

[kaiiu]

Its the Lebrick fan effect. Its the only way they can diminish what a player like Kobe, Durant,Melo and Rose bring to the table. Guys who like to wscore are considered" chuckers" to them

[ThaRegul8r]

There's also opinion like "Reggie Miller/Dirk (or insert name) can only score"
Which can be pretty dumb as well.

The recent knock on Reggie during the “Re: ISH All-time Top 25 guards project: #19 - Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen” thread was that he didn't score enough with all the screens being run for him and for someone who only shot the ball, and that he "was not ever close to a takeover scorer."

[IGOTGAME]

Really? Wilt's always been ripped for his scoring dropping in the playoffs, and the knock on Garnett has always been that he isn't a "takeover scorer."

It's like this is Bizarro land now.

way to state the obvious. Been he is being ranked as a player against his peers where does Garnett rank? Extremely high regardless of the fault in his game(not saying it is incorrect). Apparently people don't place that much value on lack of take over ability(I have less of a problem with a big having that quality than a guard).

And the Wilt thing is a whole nother argument. Wilt is ripped for everything in the world it seems.

[DRose1899]

I'm assuming that when you say "takeover ability", you mean the ability to score off isolations, outside of the team game? That's always been controversial. You're as likely to destroy team chemistry, and shoot them out of the game, as you are to be a hero, and win it.
God...

Lets talk about people that undervaluing Reggie/Dirk impact because apparently they can only "score"

People forgetting they helping the team with their clutch play in 4th quarter and not just that, because their scoring abilities opposition's defense "fear" them and that opened space to other player in Reggie/Dirk's team, the example is pretty evident from 2011 mavs or in extent, Bulls.

So this thread is about people that often saying shit like "he only scoring" and some player scoring impact is no less valuable than some player that more versatile in both ends.

[ThaRegul8r]

Really? Wilt's always been ripped for his scoring dropping in the playoffs, and the knock on Garnett has always been that he isn't a "takeover scorer."

It's like this is Bizarro land now.

way to state the obvious.

You're the one who listed Wilt and Garnett when talking about players whose lack of takeover ability is overlooked, when they've always been knocked, which completely invalidates the point you were attempting to make.

[IGOTGAME]

You're the one who listed Wilt and Garnett when talking about players whose lack of takeover ability is overlooked, when they've always been knocked, which completely invalidates the point you were attempting to make.

it doesn't invalidate the point. Because when he is ranked, not much value is given to that fault in comparison to other faults a player could have.

More value is placed on being versatile then is taken away for not being a great scorer.

[Sarcastic]

Yea too many people are caught up on efficiency these days. They think if you can shoot 2 for 3, you can shoot 20 for 30 just as easily.

[catch24]

With the exception of a few threads, no, not really. In fact, most people here think it's ALL about scoring.

[IGOTGAME]

With the exception of a few threads, no not really. In fact, most people here think it's ALL about scoring.

really, well I only read coherent posts. The other stuff I just skip.

I do know I read a lot of [melo or kobe or rose or durant or dirk] can only score stuff here. As if being able to score isnt really a big deal and you can just find other guys to do it instead.

[catch24]

really, well I only read coherent posts. The other stuff I just skip.

Good point. It's mostly the trolls and idiots that spew that stuff. They have no regard for efficiency.


I do know I read a lot of [melo or kobe or rose or durant or dirk] can only score stuff here. As if being able to score isnt really a big deal and you can just find other guys to do it instead.

Seen that too.

Do the threads on Pippen of late have any bearing on your opinion 'here'? Because in those threads, you're right, there are A LOT of posters (who'd rather have Pipp on their teams than Bryant) disregarding scoring for a few extra rebounds, assists, etc.

[Inactive]

Yea too many people are caught up on efficiency these days. They think if you can shoot 2 for 3, you can shoot 20 for 30 just as easily.No one argues that Kerr > Jordan, because he was a more efficient scorer. But, if player A scores 28, on 50% EFG, and player B scores 26, on 60% EFG, and they play the same position, player B is probably a much better scorer.

[IGOTGAME]

Good point. It's mostly the trolls and idiots that spew that stuff. They have no regard for efficiency.



Do the threads on Pippen of late have any bearing on your opinion 'here'? Because in those threads, you're right, there are A LOT of posters (who'd rather have Pipp on their teams than Bryant) disregarding scoring for a few extra rebounds, assists, etc.

I have just been going back and looking and different threads I had bookmarked. I actually haven't read that one yet.

[ThaRegul8r]

No one argues that Kerr > Jordan, because he was a more efficient scorer.

That's because Jordan has the highest career regular season and playoff scoring average in NBA history, and won 10 scoring titles. The volume between the two isn't even close, and it's not like Jordan was inefficient.

[Inactive]

That's because Jordan has the highest career regular season and playoff scoring average in NBA history, and won 10 scoring titles. The volume between the two isn't even close, and it's not like Jordan was inefficient.That's my point. No one thinks you can go 20 for 30, if you can go 2 for 3. It's only when scoring outputs are similar, that we compare player efficiency, and we're right to do so.

[RRR3]

Its the Lebrick fan effect. Its the only way they can diminish what a player like Kobe, Durant,Melo and Rose bring to the table. Guys who like to wscore are considered" chuckers" to them
Funny, because LeBron has the third highest points per game average in the history of basketball behind only Jordan and Chamberlain. Yeah, that makes perfec sense. :facepalm

[knightfall88]

u know whats overrated? Assists and Rebounds from a wing player

[knicksman]

I don't know where in the world this sentiment is coming from. Just because of one discussion on point guards, suddenly scoring has become "undervalued," when it's always been the #1 criteria for evaluating players by "most people."

:facepalm

na if you are good all around then you are better. thats why wade and lebron are ranked higher than dirk even though they beat him in the finals. The only thing dirk is better than both of them is scoring yet it beats 2 great all around players and so i believe that all around play is useless if youre not the best scorer.

[Inactive]

na if you are good all around then you are better. thats why wade and lebron are ranked higher than dirk even though they beat him in the finals. The only thing dirk is better than both of them is scoring yet it beats 2 great all around players and so i believe that all around play is useless if youre not the best scorer.Since when is Dirk better than Lebron/Wade at scoring?

[knicksman]

I'm assuming that when you say "takeover ability", you mean the ability to score off isolations, outside of the team game? That's always been controversial. You're as likely to destroy team chemistry, and shoot them out of the game, as you are to be a hero, and win it.

takeover means you need points. The one youre thinking that destroys chemistry are those players who scores a lot when scoring is not needed from them and be gone in the clutch when its the most needed

[Inactive]

takeover means you need points. The one youre thinking that destroys chemistry are those players who scores a lot when scoring is not needed from them and be gone in the clutch when its the most neededIt doesn't matter what point in the game we're talking about. You can have a player attempt to be a hero, or you can try to get the best possible shot, by playing as a team. Coaches, and fans have debated the pros and cons of those two approaches forever.

[knicksman]

Since when is Dirk better than Lebron/Wade at scoring?

Since they were born.

[tontoz]

Dallas had the best scoring efficiency in the playoffs and .....SURPRISE!!....they won the title.

Dirk scored a lot AND scored efficiently during the regular season and in the postseason. He was huge and i certainly don't remember anyone downplaying his scoring.

[ThaRegul8r]

I don't know where in the world this sentiment is coming from. Just because of one discussion on point guards, suddenly scoring has become "undervalued," when it's always been the #1 criteria for evaluating players by "most people."

:facepalm

na if you are good all around then you are better. thats why wade and lebron are ranked higher than dirk even though they beat him in the finals. The only thing dirk is better than both of them is scoring yet it beats 2 great all around players and so i believe that all around play is useless if youre not the best scorer.

...

You just proved my point.

[Inactive]

Since they were born.Wade, and Lebron both have higher career scoring averages in the regular season. Wade is tied with Dirk in the playoffs, Lebron's are higher. They all have similar efficiency. They've all been known as chokers at various times in their careers, and they've all been known as clutch performers, at other times.

WTF?

[ThaSwagg3r]

Wade, and Lebron both have higher career scoring averages in the regular season. Wade is tied with Dirk in the playoffs, Lebron's are higher. They all have similar efficiency. They've all been known as chokers at various times in their careers, and they've all been known as clutch performers, at other times.

Wade has never been known as a choker, **** outta here. Don't describe your boy LeBron and say Wade is the same thing.

Wade > LeBron, deal with it.

[knicksman]

It doesn't matter what point in the game we're talking about. You can have a player attempt to be a hero, or you can try to get the best possible shot, by playing as a team. Coaches, and fans have debated the pros and cons of those two approaches forever.

youre assuming that in every play, you could get open when its not true esp in crunch time where players are more focused on defense, so you need a takeover type of player in that situation. I dont think it destroys team chemistry coz im sure players want someone to score in that situation. The only time it destroys chemistry if the player is still cold and still taking shots. Just look at the finals, no one is capable in taking over in the heat game and do you think if they played team game, they can score?Lebron keeps on passing and so hes being a team player but did they win?Whereas in dallas, dirk gets hot in the 4th and do you think his teammates doesnt want him to take over? Much more if they cant score in that situation just like the heat.

[Inactive]

Wade has never been known as a choker, **** outta here. Don't describe your boy LeBron and say Wade is the same thing.

Wade > LeBron, deal with it.Calm down.

[RRR3]

Since they were born.
LeBron James career regular season scoring average: 27.7 PPG
LeBron James Career postseason scoring average: 28.0 PPG
LeBron James regular seasons scoring 30+ PPG: 2
LeBron James postseasons scoring 30+ PPG: 2

Dwyane Wade career regular season scoring average: 25.4
Dwyane Wade career postseason scoring average: 25.9
Dwyane Wade regular seasons scoring 30+ PPG: 1
Dwyane Wade postseasons scoring 30+ PPG: 1

Dirk Nowitzki career regular season scoring average: 23.0
Dirk Nowitzki career postseason scoring average: 25.9
Dirk Nowitzki regular seasons scoring 30+ PPG: 0
Dirk Nowitzki postseasons scoring 30+ PPG: 0

You lose.

[tontoz]

Dirk is a much better shooter than Lebron and Wade but not a better scorer.

[knicksman]

Wade, and Lebron both have higher career scoring averages in the regular season. Wade is tied with Dirk in the playoffs, Lebron's are higher. They all have similar efficiency. They've all been known as chokers at various times in their careers, and they've all been known as clutch performers, at other times.

WTF?

I prefer a player who can score through jumpshots than through bullying in the paint esp for a perimeter player because they cant just overpower their opponents like shaq/duncan. Whereas dirk who Im ok with not having a jumpshot due to him being a big man is a better shooter than the 2. Thats why lebron got exposed when facing elite defenses. I even prefer paul pierce than the 2.

[kaiiu]

lol at Lebrick being mentioned.Cant be the best scorer when u cant shoot or have any moves besides volume 3s and bulldozing

[knicksman]

LeBron James career regular season scoring average: 27.7 PPG
LeBron James Career postseason scoring average: 28.0 PPG
LeBron James regular seasons scoring 30+ PPG: 2
LeBron James postseasons scoring 30+ PPG: 2

Dwyane Wade career regular season scoring average: 25.4
Dwyane Wade career postseason scoring average: 25.9
Dwyane Wade regular seasons scoring 30+ PPG: 1
Dwyane Wade postseasons scoring 30+ PPG: 1

Dirk Nowitzki career regular season scoring average: 23.0
Dirk Nowitzki career postseason scoring average: 25.9
Dirk Nowitzki regular seasons scoring 30+ PPG: 0
Dirk Nowitzki postseasons scoring 30+ PPG: 0

You lose.

dirk 1 ring>lebron 0

dirk could have 2 if stern didnt give wade 30+ free throws. You lose:lol

[RRR3]

lol at Lebrick being mentioned.Cant be the best scorer when u cant shoot or have any moves besides volume 3s and bulldozing
LeBron James: 47.9 career fg% Dirk: 47.6

[kaiiu]

LeBron James: 47.9 career fg% Dirk: 47.6
lol so. Lebrick is a career slasher while Dirk is a career hit a jumper in ya mouth type scorer. :confusedshrug:

More impressed Dirk shoots that high considerin the tough shots he takes. Sad 'Brick only has 2 seasons at 50% while takin layups

[Inactive]

I prefer a player who can score through jumpshots than through bullying in the paint esp for a perimeter player because they cant just overpower their opponents like shaq/duncan. Whereas dirk who Im ok with not having a jumpshot due to him being a big man is a better shooter than the 2. Thats why lebron got exposed when facing elite defenses. I even prefer paul pierce than the 2.Your preference is meaningless. Lebron, and Wade have been equal to, or better than Dirk, at scoring, throughout their careers. That's a fact. And Lebron was exposed against good defenses? Lebron was great against 2 of the best defenses in the league (Boston, and Chicago), and Wade has always been one of the best in the league vs good defenses (look at his stats vs Boston the last two years, and career numbers vs good defenses).


youre assuming that in every play, you could get open when its not true esp in crunch time where players are more focused on defense, so you need a takeover type of player in that situation. I dont think it destroys team chemistry coz im sure players want someone to score in that situation. The only time it destroys chemistry if the player is still cold and still taking shots. Just look at the finals, no one is capable in taking over in the heat game and do you think if they played team game, they can score?Lebron keeps on passing and so hes being a team player but did they win?Whereas in dallas, dirk gets hot in the 4th and do you think his teammates doesnt want him to take over? Much more if they cant score in that situation just like the heat.From what I recall Dallas played more of a team game than most teams, even in the 4th. They'd have Dirk posting up off the ball, and freeing space everyone else. Terry, and other guys hit clutch shots, late in games. It wasn't like they gave Dirk the ball, and said "Do something.".

If a player gets hot, and he's just bringing the ball up the floor, and making a move, every time, eventually he's just going to be triple teamed immediately. When that happens, his team mates are going to be cold, and reluctant to shoot big shots, because they've fallen into spectator mode, without anything to do on offense. So you end up with roleplayers, and secondary players, who are grumpy because they didn't get enough touches, and star players who think their supporting casts are unreliable, because they miss wide open shots.

[RRR3]

lol so. Lebrick is a career slasher while Dirk is a career hit a jumper in ya mouth type scorer. :confusedshrug:

More impressed Dirk shoots that high considerin the tough shots he takes. Sad 'Brick only has 2 seasons at 50% while takin layups
LeBron James threes attempted per game career: 4.2
Dirk: 3.2

Yeah, he just takes layups :facepalm

[kaiiu]

LeBron James threes attempted per game career: 4.2
Dirk: 3.2

Yeah, he just takes layups :facepalm
guess u ignored when I said volume 3s. Lebrick wont shoot if he thinks it hurts his %. But when his frontrunnin ass gets hot, he sure chucks them bitches up wit the quickness.Again,not impressed.

[Sarcastic]

dirk 1 ring>lebron 0

dirk could have 2 if stern didnt give wade 30+ free throws. You lose:lol

That doesn't mean he is a better scorer. It just means he played on a better team.

[knicksman]

...

You just proved my point.

my point is you cannot be the best player if youre not the best scorer. Wade and lebron are not the best scorers in this league as shown in these playoffs so they shouldnt be regarded as the best players in the league. If you are the best scorer then it follows that youre the best 1 on 1 player. How can you beat a player in 5 on 5 game if you can't even beat him in a 1 on 1 game.

[RRR3]

guess u ignored when I said volume 3s. Lebrick wont shoot if he thinks it hurts his %. But when his frontrunnin ass gets hot, he sure chucks them bitches up wit the quickness.Again,not impressed.
If he cared so much about his FG% he wouldn't chuck threes
:facepalm. Are you mentally retarded? He's clearly an erratic three point shooter so if he cared that damn much about his FG% he'd stop taking 300+ threes a season.

[RRR3]

my point is you cannot be the best player if youre not the best scorer. Wade and lebron are not the best scorers in this league as shown in these playoffs so they shouldnt be regarded as the best players in the league. If you are the best scorer then it follows that youre the best 1 on 1 player. How can you beat a player in 5 on 5 game if you can't even beat him in a 1 on 1 game.

LOL WUT? Both Wade and LeBron would DESTROY Dirk one-on-one. GTFO

[tontoz]

guess u ignored when I said volume 3s. Lebrick wont shoot if he thinks it hurts his %. But when his frontrunnin ass gets hot, he sure chucks them bitches up wit the quickness.Again,not impressed.


This guy makes 32 posts per day. http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/icon_op.gif

[knicksman]

LeBron James: 47.9 career fg% Dirk: 47.6

jumpshot>>>>bulldozing. tell me what lebron did in the finals with his bulldozing moves?

[tontoz]

LOL WUT? Both Wade and LeBron would DESTROY Dirk one-on-one. GTFO


Steve Nash used to play Dirk 1 on 1 a lot and Nash usually won. Not sure how Dirk could stop Lebron and Wade.

[Inactive]

guess u ignored when I said volume 3s. Lebrick wont shoot if he thinks it hurts his %. But when his frontrunnin ass gets hot, he sure chucks them bitches up wit the quickness.Again,not impressed.So you want him to shoot 3s, when he doesn't feel like it's a high % shot? :wtf:

If he wanted an inflated FG% he would stop shooting them altogether.

[kaiiu]

This guy makes 32 posts per day. http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/icon_op.gif
and still seen more ***** than u with these 32 post a day.

[Inactive]

jumpshot>>>>bulldozing. tell me what lebron did in the finals with his bulldozing moves?In the regular season, Lebron took 12.9 shots from 3 feet or further, per game. Dirk took 13.7 per game. Wade is more of a pure slasher, than Lebron is, but they can both shoot.

It's not like he scores 100% of his points on layups, and failed to get to the basket against Dallas. He just stopped looking to score, period.

[kaiiu]

In the regular season, Lebron took 12.9 shots from 3 feet or further, per game. Dirk took 13.7 per game. Wade is more of a pure slasher, than Lebron is, but they can both shoot.

It's not like he scores 100% of his points on layups, and failed to get to the basket against Dallas. He just stopped looking to score, period.
lol

[ThaSwagg3r]

Dirk is a much better shooter than Lebron and Wade but not a better scorer.
And who is the better to you between Wade and LeBron??

[knickscity]

guess u ignored when I said volume 3s. Lebrick wont shoot if he thinks it hurts his %. But when his frontrunnin ass gets hot, he sure chucks them bitches up wit the quickness.Again,not impressed.
You really gotta explain this.

What player wouldn't fit this category?

If player thinks he'd miss, he should find a better scoring option, and if he's hot why the hell would he stop shooting?

[tontoz]

And who is the better to you between Wade and LeBron??


I am not touching that one lol.

[Inactive]

lol70% of Lebron's attempts were jumpshots, last year. 60% of Wade's attempts were jumpshots. They're both top scorers, and highly efficient. How is that possible, if they can't shoot?

[ThaSwagg3r]

70% of Lebron's attempts were jumpshots, last year. 60% of Wade's attempts were jumpshots. They're both top scorers, and highly efficient. How is that possible, if they can't shoot?
You lost all your credibility when you said Wade was considered a choker, **** outta this thread, *******, and Wade > LeBron.

[kaiiu]

You lost all your credibility when you said Wade was considered a choker, **** outta this thread, *******, and Wade > LeBron.
this tell that ******* to suck a dick

[Inactive]

You lost all your credibility when you said Wade was considered a choker, **** outta this thread, *******, and Wade > LeBron.Wade > Lebron in the playoffs, last 2 years.

Do you guys really think you're going to upset me?

[tontoz]

70% of Lebron's attempts were jumpshots, last year. 60% of Wade's attempts were jumpshots. They're both top scorers, and highly efficient. How is that possible, if they can't shoot?


Lebron shot 45% from 10-23 feet which is actually pretty good, probably his career best.

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=LeBron%20James

[knicksman]

Your preference is meaningless. Lebron, and Wade have been equal to, or better than Dirk, at scoring, throughout their careers. That's a fact. And Lebron was exposed against good defenses? Lebron was great against 2 of the best defenses in the league (Boston, and Chicago), and Wade has always been one of the best in the league vs good defenses (look at his stats vs Boston the last two years, and career numbers vs good defenses).

I dont think boston is still good after they traded perkins. Remember how boston toyed with miami before the trade. Chicago?Noah is good but paired with boozer?Nah




From what I recall Dallas played more of a team game than most teams, even in the 4th. They'd have Dirk posting up off the ball, and freeing space everyone else. Terry, and other guys hit clutch shots, late in games. It wasn't like they gave Dirk the ball, and said "Do something.".

If a player gets hot, and he's just bringing the ball up the floor, and making a move, every time, eventually he's just going to be triple teamed immediately. When that happens, his team mates are going to be cold, and reluctant to shoot big shots, because they've fallen into spectator mode, without anything to do on offense. So you end up with roleplayers, and secondary players, who are grumpy because they didn't get enough touches, and star players who think their supporting casts are unreliable, because they miss wide open shots.

Actually thats my point. Dirks let his teammates gets hot by involving them from first through third but if still they cant get hot then thats the time he takes over. Compare that to a player who takes a lot of shots in the first through 3rd so he could get his points and be gone when it matters. And you can still takeover within the flow of the offense. But if he gets hot, im sure teammates are ok with him isoing a lot. Thats one of the basics in offense, feed the hot hand. And posting up is still an iso play.

[Inactive]

I dont think boston is still good after they traded perkins. Remember how boston toyed with miami before the trade. Chicago?Noah is good but paired with boozer?Nah The first two games Miami played against Boston were early in the season, when they were really struggling. The 3rd game was decided by 3 points, and from what I recall, Miami just played really poorly, I didn't think it was entirely due to Boston's defense. Your point is valid, though, that trade did hurt them.

Chicago was a very good defensive team, though. You can't dismiss that, just because of Boozer. Every team is going to have a soft spot.




Actually thats my point. Dirks let his teammates gets hot by involving them from first through third but if still they cant get hot then thats the time he takes over. Compare that to a player who takes a lot of shots in the first through 3rd so he could get his points and be gone when it matters. And you can still takeover within the flow of the offense. But if he gets hot, im sure teammates are ok with him isoing a lot. Thats one of the basics in offense, feed the hot hand. And posting up is still an iso play.Yeah, if a player is dominating within the flow of the game, hitting clutch shots, and not preventing his teammates from getting involved, he'll be more successful than a player who dominates for stretches, without involving teammates, and then expects them to step up when he gets shut down.

However, if a player says to himself "okay it's my time to takeover, and be the man", and tries to play 1 on 5, fades when he can't get past his defender, while his teammates stand around, waiting for a pass, then I don't believe he's helping his team.

[knicksman]

That doesn't mean he is a better scorer. It just means he played on a better team.

The better team excuse. At the beginning dallas will be a first round exit while heat will break jordans bulls record

[Sarcastic]

The better team excuse. At the beginning dallas will be a first round exit while heat will break jordans bulls record

:facepalm

What does that have to do with scoring?

I guess Jason Terry is a better scorer than Lebron and Wade since he beat them too and won a ring?

[gengiskhan]

yes.

Big time.

30ppg ave under today's rules = 24-25 ppg ave under '90s & '80s.

Ever since '99 lockout. NBA scoring since then every season has become easier & easier as offense is given much more preference over defense

If even a touch foul, player must be send to the FT line to earn pts is the name of the game.

Hence more FTs, easier scoring opportunities & inflated scoring stats across the board

Reason why MJ's '88 season of 35 ppg can never ever equal Kobe's '06 season of 35 ppg which is equivilant of 30-31ppg season under 1980-1998 rules.

[chips93]

yes.

Big time.

30ppg ave under today's rules = 24-25 ppg ave under '90s & '80s.

Ever since '99 lockout. NBA scoring since then every season has become easier & easier as offense is given much more preference over defense

If even a touch foul, player must be send to the FT line to earn pts is the name of the game.

Hence more FTs, easier scoring opportunities & inflated scoring stats across the board

Reason why MJ's '88 season of 35 ppg can never ever equal Kobe's '06 season of 35 ppg which is equivilant of 30-31ppg season under 1980-1998 rules.

:sleeping

2011: fta/fga - 0.229
1991: fta/fga - 0.245
1981: fta/fga - 0.245

if you look closely, you'll see that free throw attempts are going down.

this is too easy son :pimp:

edit: fwiw jordan's bulls in 87 had 96 possessions a game, compared to kobe's lakers in 06 which played 91 possessions a game, so jordan's stats from that season are about 5 percent, compared to kobe's stats from 06

[gengiskhan]

:sleeping

2011: fta/fga - 0.229
1991: fta/fga - 0.245
1981: fta/fga - 0.245

if you look closely, you'll see that free throw attempts are going down.

this is too easy son :pimp:

edit: fwiw jordan's bulls in 87 had 96 possessions a game, compared to kobe's lakers in 06 which played 91 possessions a game, so jordan's stats from that season are about 5 percent, compared to kobe's stats from 06

crappy stat count.

more possessions also means efficient passing & ball movement resulting in quicker score & less ballhogging.

lesser possession means using all 24 secs of time clock due to ballhogging or inferior ball movement.

not everything can be measured in fractions kid.

watch any 1988 game & watch any 2006 game. you'll see the difference how much better & fundamentally game was played in 1988.

also notice the full court & half court defense played to slow the game down with full handchecking from 30 feet on.

You didnt just walk up to 3 pt line & shoot a measured 3 pointer like in 2006.

averaging 30ppg in 1988 is like averaging 35 ppg in 2006.

[knicksman]

LOL WUT? Both Wade and LeBron would DESTROY Dirk one-on-one. GTFO

Thats why lebron is rumored to be guarding dirk? Oh wait even terry/marion are owning him:lol

[SunsCaptain]

Scoring hasn't become underrated but if you suck at shooting but shoot a lot to get high PPG then yes that is bad. A.I. is terrible. Its like If Kidd got more PPG and less assist on his terrible shooting. That would make him a TURRIBLE chucker.


High PPG and terrible shooting % makes you a chucker. A no good terrible chucker.

In my opinion players like Iverson make your team a lot worse.

What people fail to understand is players like Iverson have a hell of a lot more terrible games than they have good games.

[Inactive]

Thats why lebron is rumored to be guarding dirk? Oh wait he even terry/marion are owning him:lol If you ask Dirk if he'd beat Lebron, or Wade 1 on 1, even he'd say no way.

In an informal 1 on 1 game, he'd have a lot of trouble scoring, over physical defense, because he can't overpower, or blow by them. Even if you applied NBA rules to the 1 on 1 game, he has no chance of staying in front of them. Eventually he will miss jump shots, and they will just keep making open layups.

[knicksman]

The first two games Miami played against Boston were early in the season, when they were really struggling. The 3rd game was decided by 3 points, and from what I recall, Miami just played really poorly, I didn't think it was entirely due to Boston's defense. Your point is valid, though, that trade did hurt them.

Chicago was a very good defensive team, though. You can't dismiss that, just because of Boozer. Every team is going to have a soft spot.

Chicago is a good defensive team but I dont think they have the frontcourt that could prevent lebron from driving unlike dallas. Or boston when they still have perkins/shaq. Chicago doesnt have that gasol/bynum, perkins/garnett,chandler dirk thats why im not a believer of their team even with their defense coz of their undersized frontcourt.




Yeah, if a player is dominating within the flow of the game, hitting clutch shots, and not preventing his teammates from getting involved, he'll be more successful than a player who dominates for stretches, without involving teammates, and then expects them to step up when he gets shut down.

However, if a player says to himself "okay it's my time to takeover, and be the man", and tries to play 1 on 5, fades when he can't get past his defender, while his teammates stand around, waiting for a pass, then I don't believe he's helping his team.

Maybe we have different definition of takeover coz for me, taking over is scoring when your teammates are struggling and not just at the whim of the player whenever he likes to. If your teammates arent struggling then i dont think you need someone to take over. If a player decides at that point to play 1 on 5 then i think its more about selfishness trying to get his points.

[knicksman]

:facepalm

What does that have to do with scoring?

I guess Jason Terry is a better scorer than Lebron and Wade since he beat them too and won a ring?

Because the only thing dirk is good at is scoring. Hes not a better passer, defender,etc and he doesnt have a better team so that means that he is really the better scorer coz he won. He can take over in the 4th unlike the 2. So if lebron and wade really are better scorers then how come they cant take over in the 4th?

[GiveItToBurrito]

Every other thread is either a troll thread or was made with a specific agenda in mind, so I really don't think it's possible to tell what the board actually thinks as a whole. That said, no, scoring isn't undervalued, because most of the threads are based on how good guys are at scoring. By the way, the most overvalued stat round these parts is all defense teams - not defense, but making the all defense team.

[knicksman]

If you ask Dirk if he'd beat Lebron, or Wade 1 on 1, even he'd say no way.

In an informal 1 on 1 game, he'd have a lot of trouble scoring, over physical defense, because he can't overpower, or blow by them. Even if you applied NBA rules to the 1 on 1 game, he has no chance of staying in front of them. Eventually he will miss jump shots, and they will just keep making open layups.

Dirk will just post them up. And if he misses, he can still get the rebound. The only way they can beat dirk is if they can overpower him but only lebron has the chance but no way wade can.

[tpols]

Scoring in general isn't underrrated.. actually, it's probably overrated. But clutch scoring is where I feel not enough appreciation is gathered. Some guys will get a ton of points in the flow of a game but those same guys cant get you a basket when it COUNTS. Thats what separates the good scorers from the great scorers to me. People love to spit out the 25ppg 46%FG versus 25ppg 50%FG stat shit, but they cant elaborate on how meaningful each bucket was.

Some guys you can toss the ball to in a halfcourt set during a tight game and they'll get you a bucket. Other guys you cant do this with, but they'll get you a shit load of fastbreak points throughout the game which will even the twos' stat totals. Obviously the first one was more valuable though because his plays created more momentum and they were more important in deciding the outcome of the game.

[Inactive]

Dirk will just post them up. And if he misses, he can still get the rebound. The only way they can beat dirk is if they can overpower him but only lebron has the chance but no way wade can.What? Dirk doesn't have the lateral quickness to stay in front of either.


Because the only thing dirk is good at is scoring. Hes not a better passer, defender,etc and he doesnt have a better team so that means that he is really the better scorer coz he won. He can take over in the 4th unlike the 2. So if lebron and wade really are better scorers then how come they cant take over in the 4th?You realize that's insanely flawed logic, right? Is Manu better than Tim Duncan, Emeka Okafor, Carmelo Anthony, Carlos Boozer, Richard Jefferson, Shawn Marion, Lamar Odom, Amar'e Stoudemire, LeBron James, Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Dwyane Wade, because Argentina won the 2004 Olympics, and you can't argue that his teammates were better?

A TEAM can outplay another TEAM even it's individual players aren't as good.

[Yung D-Will]

really....

A place who constantly undervalues Allen Iverson greatness.

A place who constantly acts as though I. Thomas ability to take over games meant nothing because if other pgs felt like it they could do the same.

A place that pretends that if a player can score 15 points on good efficiency that he could automatically score 25 ppg when needed on decent efficiency.

A place that constantly goes at DRose for scoring on bad efficiency while he leads his team to wins.

A place that rated John Stockton over Kobe Bryant.

Come on, lets be real here.

wHEN WAS THIS......

[RRR3]

Dirk will just post them up. And if he misses, he can still get the rebound. The only way they can beat dirk is if they can overpower him but only lebron has the chance but no way wade can.
LOL @ Dirk posting up Wade. GTFO

[bizil]

really....

A place who constantly undervalues Allen Iverson greatness.

A place who constantly acts as though I. Thomas ability to take over games meant nothing because if other pgs felt like it they could do the same.

A place that pretends that if a player can score 15 points on good efficiency that he could automatically score 25 ppg when needed on decent efficiency.

A place that constantly goes at DRose for scoring on bad efficiency while he leads his team to wins.

A place that rated John Stockton over Kobe Bryant.

Come on, lets be real here.


I agree with u 100%! I see it enough on this thread. It's not every poster. Jalen Rose has always said u are what your skillset says u r. For example I prefer Zeke over Stock cause he can run a team and drop dimes just as good. And he can takeover a game scoring. I'm not shittin on Stock at all, I'm just stating why I would take Isiah. But MANY posters on here can't agree to disagree. Or they question your hoops knowledge. And on top of it they devalue scoring. Once again there are thousands of posters on here. But I see it enough. And it's puzzling to me.

Some players may not be as effcient as others no doubt. But at the same time a great scorer is a great scorer in my book. Some guys force shots on bad teams for that team to succeed. The Bulls may not have a lot of scoring weapons other Rose. That's why I give Rose a break over Westbrook. Westbrook had a stud like Kevin Durant to pass to. U even got a guy like that's a budding All Star in James Harden. Rose doesn't have that type of offensive help. So he had to think score more. The thing that saves the Bulls is that they are a great defensive team. This somewhat similar to the teams Iverson had in Philly. A great defensive team with only one true stud scorer. So AI and Rose shouldn't be shitted on. They should be critiqued given their circumstances fairly.

[bizil]

God...

Lets talk about people that undervaluing Reggie/Dirk impact because apparently they can only "score"

People forgetting they helping the team with their clutch play in 4th quarter and not just that, because their scoring abilities opposition's defense "fear" them and that opened space to other player in Reggie/Dirk's team, the example is pretty evident from 2011 mavs or in extent, Bulls.

So this thread is about people that often saying shit like "he only scoring" and some player scoring impact is no less valuable than some player that more versatile in both ends.

Exactly right! Reggie and Dirk are both great, great players. Reggie might not have been great all around like MJ. Dirk wasn't great all around like KG or Duncan. But Dirk's scoring prowess is on par with any PF EVER! And he shows up in the big moments. And on top of it, he revolutionized the PF position. A great, great defender in KG has trouble guarding Dirk. GREAT OFFENSE BEATS GREAT DEFENSE!

I would rather have KG or Timmy on my team. But it takes that kind of player to put over Dirk. Dirk is the cream of the crop player. So it takes another cream of the crop player to put over him. A player just being versatile aint gonna cut it. It's like sayin Lamar Odom is better than Dirk cause he's more versatile. Or Andre Iggy is better than Melo or Durant because he's more versatile. Being versatile just means u do many things well. But doing thing well and GREAT are two different things. If u are a GREAT SCORER, it can supercede a player with less scoring ability who may be more versatile.

The only stat that guarantees a win is points. Other facets of the game are extremely important. But if u get the most points, u win 100% of the time. But on D u must try your best to prevent a team from scoring the ball. Some teams may lack size or D, so they try to outscore the opponent cause they may be poor defensively. Which in theory can get teams going. But chances are u aren't gonna win a ring. But at the same time if u play great D, and lack the scoring ability to take advantage of it then that's trouble too. That's why a guy like AI on the Sixers team was awesome. Take him off that team and they aren't even a playoff team. Put him on it and the team makes it to the Finals. Cause the D kept it close, and then u have a premier scorer to give them the scoring punch it needs. If u put a Stockton in AI's place on that team, that team isn't nearly as good.

[Math2]

A place that rated John Stockton over Kobe Bryant.


In no way is John Stockton better than Kobe...:facepalm

[D-Wade316]

Scoring is overrated. There's a reason why DeBRICK Rose won the MVP award.

[Legends66NBA7]

With the enhanced use of advanced stats and increased reliance on box scores I have come to realize that scoring has become somewhat undervalued.

Many posters here seem to think that scoring a lot is a bad thing. But when is the last time a pass first point guard was the best player on a championship team. Thought so. It isn't coincidence, it is because of the nature of the game.

My question is, why has this sudden shift occurred? Is it because people don't understand the game and must rely on advanced stats or because they feel the need to down scoring to feel elitist?

I think it has to do more with shot selection and efficiency. Offcourse scoring is important, but today's game focuses on too many one on one and not enough ball movement on offense. Get the right shot and get the best shot for your team possession. It's easier said than done, but it's most efficient way possible.

[bballnoob1192]

IMO there are two types of elite scorers the 50% FG scorers like Lebron james. these players can give you 27-30 a nite and 40+ some times. They will fit into a team that has other role players who can score decently also. Then there are elite scorers like Kobe who shoots at 45% FG and can give you 27-30 points a nite and 50+ points a nite or even 60 points. You ask what is different between the two? well the Lebron type scorers are more efficient, but less explosive and the Kobe type scorers are less efficient but more explosive.

so there is no undervaluing of scoring, it's just how people value their two type of elite scorers.

[knicksman]

LOL @ Dirk posting up Wade. GTFO

yeah we already knew youre an idiot. No need to prove it.

[knicksman]

What? Dirk doesn't have the lateral quickness to stay in front of either.

You realize that's insanely flawed logic, right? Is Manu better than Tim Duncan, Emeka Okafor, Carmelo Anthony, Carlos Boozer, Richard Jefferson, Shawn Marion, Lamar Odom, Amar'e Stoudemire, LeBron James, Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Dwyane Wade, because Argentina won the 2004 Olympics, and you can't argue that his teammates were better?

A TEAM can outplay another TEAM even it's individual players aren't as good.

even if they dont have lateral quickness, it doesnt mean that theyll get by dirk in every play. If they cant, then dirk has the length to bother them.

And I dont give too much value on olympics. They are not serious about winning at that time thats why they put young players in there.

[D.J.]

Scoring is only one side of the floor and it's not the side that wins championships. Do you want a guy scoring 30 points a night on 25-30 shots and struggling to shoot 40% from the field? The 30 points are nice, but you're giving it all right back and perhaps even more with poor decisions and shot selection.

[IGOTGAME]

Scoring is only one side of the floor and it's not the side that wins championships. Do you want a guy scoring 30 points a night on 25-30 shots and struggling to shoot 40% from the field? The 30 points are nice, but you're giving it all right back and perhaps even more with poor decisions and shot selection.

name me all the guys in the history of the nba who scored 30 ppg and hurt there teams while doing it?

guess what, it doesnt happen because coaches or other players would check them.

[SunsCaptain]

name me all the guys in the history of the nba who scored 30 ppg and hurt there teams while doing it?

guess what, it doesnt happen because coaches or other players would check them.

Iverson.

[Math2]

Iverson.

and wilt

[jlauber]

and wilt

When Wilt averaged 50 ppg in '62, he did so on a team that went 49-31. And, it was basically the same LAST-PLACE roster that he joined in his rookie season in '60 (when he immediately took them to a then best-ever team record of 49-26.)

And, somehow Wilt took that cast of clowns to a game seven, two point loss, against the 60-20 Celtics and their SEVEN HOFers, in the ECF's. BTW, his teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

So, instead of ripping Wilt for his performance, he should be applauded as SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying a pathetic roster to a mounmental near upset of the greatest dynasty in professional team sports history.

[tontoz]

Yeah scoring efficiency is given too much weight. It isn't like the team with the best scoring efficiency in the playoffs won the title this past season. Oh wait....:lol

The object of shooting the basketball is to actually make the shot.

[D.J.]

name me all the guys in the history of the nba who scored 30 ppg and hurt there teams while doing it?

guess what, it doesnt happen because coaches or other players would check them.


Iverson is a prime example. Say he averages 30 PPG on 10/25 shooting. Those 15 shots he's missing gives the other team a brand new possession without allowing any points from Iverson. Those 15 shots is a potential 30 points. Iverson was also good for about 4 turnovers a game. That's a possible 8 points. Iverson's 30 points is not only negated, but it also puts his team in a hole.

[guy]

I think its undervalued. Its one of those things that was overvalued for a long time so people now tend to undervalue it because of it. I think people here think scoring, passing, defense, rebounding are all equal, which I don't believe at all. They tend to think someone who is on one level of rebounding is equal to another players who is on the same level of scoring (ignoring other aspects I mean). I don't understand that at all.