ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #8 - Dwyane Wade vs. Walt Frazier

[G.O.A.T]

Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Dwyane Wade or Walt Frazier should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #9 in our project.

Only members listed on the project roster will have their votes counted. Anyone may add their opinion and or argument as long as it's constructive. Our roster is now finalized. If you like the project and think you can make it better please add your opinion. If you;d like to join in the forwards, centers or all-time top 67 project, please let me know via PM. The Final Roster is listed below....

The Roster

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
iamgine
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
PTB Fan (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
Kblaze8855 (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)





http://susanshan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dwyane-Wade1.jpg

8 seasons
6x all-NBA
7x all-star
3x all-defensive
2010 ASG MVP
1x Scoring Champion
2006 NBA Champion
2006 Finals MVP
27-6-6-2 for playoffs during prime


Votes (10)
TheSwagg3r
SuperPippen
Odinn
magnax1
SteveNashMVPcro
HylianNightmare
D.J.
Toizumi
Miller for 3
Shaqattack3234

http://www.walt-frazier.com/waltfrazier.jpg

13 seasons
6x all-NBA
7x all-star
6x all-defensive
2x NBA Champion (1970 & 1973)
1975 ASG MVP
Averaged 18-8-10 in 1970 Finals; had 39 points and 9 assists in game seven
Averaged 22-7-7 in the playoffs from 1969-1974 while Knicks were title contenders


Votes (9)
L.Kizzle
Gotterdammerung
G.O.A.T
RobertdeMeijer
1987 Lakers
KGMN
MasterDurant24
Rose
Boston C's

[inclinerator]

wayne

[Kblaze8855]

Wade was winning this no matter which of them got placed in his path.

And he should.

There are people ive seen ranked top 10 that Wade is arguably better than.

[MasterDurant24]

As much as I like Frazier, I got to go with Dwayne Wade.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Give me the best player in the Miami Heat today and arguably the best player in the league today........Dwyane Wade.

[winwin]

wow

an 8 year career Wade is better than

Gary Payton
Clyde Drexler
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
John Stockton

in All-time Top 25 Guards??


i don't buy this

[Odinn]

It's easier than Stockton vs. Wade. Longevity isn't a issue.

Wade had greater peak. I vote for Dwyane Wade.

[SuperPippen]

Wade vs. Stockton would have been a more interesting debate, as everyone would argue over the whole " peak vs. longevity" thing.

But, Wade is obviously going to win this. There is simply too much that the majority doesn't know about Walt and many of the other players of his era. Maybe if the posters on this board could be exposed to Walt the way they've been exposed to Wade, this debate would be more interesting.

Wade simply has the insurmountable advantage here. Walt's only real fault is playing during an era when the league wasn't as mainstream, and so there's very little footage of him for us to analyze when compared to Wade.

I vote for Dwayne Wade. He's arguably already one of the 5 best shooting guards who've ever lived.

But, I would not be upset if those posters with a better knowledge of the league's past eras than I were to vote for Walt Frazier.

[Soothing Layup]

wow this whole project went to shit when you forced Clyde to advance. And wade a top ten guard ever? God are you kids all 14?

[magnax1]

Either Stockton, or Frazier this is an easy choice for me.
Wade
And why are people saying things like Payton should be higher then Wade? Wade took a team to a title the second year he had a team that was worthy of it. It's not like his teams have been stacked either. Payton took far more talented teams to 1 conference final, and 1 final in his prime. It just seems like people are getting to nostalgic or something.
As for Frazier, I still think he'd end up having a similar career to Payton's on most teams. Probably better, but not a whole ton.

[G.O.A.T]

wow

an 8 year career Wade is better than

Gary Payton
Clyde Drexler
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
John Stockton

in All-time Top 25 Guards??


i don't buy this

If you didn't know he only played eight years and you just looked at the resume and saw the game film available from these eight years you'd buy it. I am sure of that.

What if Wade plays 4-6 more years as an above average player but is no longer elite. Say he averages 15-5-5 and never makes another all-NBA team or all-star team. He still has just as many as accolades as those guys, he still has as good or better numbers, just as much or more playoff success. Plus a title as the best player (which none of them have) and a Finals MVP (which none of them have)

Are four-six average to below average seasons really the thing stopping you from putting Wade on the same level as those guys?

Pettit only played 11 seasons, Willis Reed 10 will you hold that against them?

People were calling guys like Kareem and Larry Bird the greatest of all-time three-five years into their careers.

Longevity matters, but not as much as peak and Wade's peak was on an entirely different level.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

wade

[magnax1]

What disgruntled poster keeps giving these threads low star ratings?
:lol
GP20 maybe?

[Bigsmoke]

Walt Frazier was a beast but Willis Reed is my ***** so I'm voting for Wade

[L.Kizzle]

Give Me Clyde Frazier. No hate but Wade's early career shouldn't make him this high on the list. It's not like his first 8 seasons included multiple MVPs and multiple titles (like a Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan, ect.) Or his first 8 years aren't statistical dominance like a Wilt, Robertson, Jordan, ect.

If that was the case, I could see him being voted over a Walt Frazier a multiple champ, All-Star and all league player (All-NBA and All-Defensive.)

[HylianNightmare]

didn't get to see walt frazier but his numbers look impressive, but they are numbers i think wade can accomplish himself and i wouldn't be surprised if wade grabs another ring or 2

so

Wade

[L.Kizzle]

didn't get to see walt frazier but his numbers look impressive, but they are numbers i think wade can accomplish himself and i wouldn't be surprised if wade grabs another ring or 2

so

Wade
If, or he could retire tomorrow.

In the long run if everything goes the way it should, sure Wade will be above Walt Frazier. For now, no way. Most consider Walt a top 25-35 player. I didn't know Wade climbed that high on the list. :confusedshrug:

You all seem to be predicting Wade's final outcome and not looking at it right now.

[Gotterdammerung]

D-Whistle was more of a flash in the pan (2006 finals). Hasn't led a team out of the first round besides 2005 when Shaq was at the tail end of his prime, and before LeBron joined.

Give me Clyde who was:
one of the best big game players of all time.
one of the best defensive guards of all time.
one of the single greatest Game 7 performances of all time.

He was a better pickpocket. As good on the boards. Better playmaker. Better shut-down defender. More clutch, & more level-headed.

Most important: Clyde had the best high-post game of all time. If Wade had this, the Miami Heat would be champs by now, and have a guaranteed berth in the Finals for the next 4 years.

OTOH: Wade was far more athletic, & had plenty of big games in the playoffs, but mostly due to slashing to the hoop depending on open lanes. As he matures, nears 30, his jumpshot has yet to solidify.

This comparison is somewhat premature because Wade may have a longer peak than Clyde, who only had 9 good years, and a title or two may push him past the Dapper Dan.

[D.J.]

Wade


-Better scorer
-Much better at attacking the hoop and getting to the foul line
-Better help defender
-Better shot blocker
-Much more athletic
-Can defend 1's, 2's, and even some 3's because of his wingspan and strength


Clyde was a bit more versatile offensively, while Wade was a bit more versatile defensively. Walt was better overall as a defender though. I like Wade here because of his ability to get to the foul line, his ability to score 30+ points on good shooting percentages, his ability to guard multiple positions, his shot blocking ability, and his ability to take over games scoring wise.

[magnax1]

If, or he could retire tomorrow.

In the long run if everything goes the way it should, sure Wade will be above Walt Frazier. For now, no way. Most consider Walt a top 25-35 player. I didn't know Wade climbed that high on the list. :confusedshrug:

You all seem to be predicting Wade's final outcome and not looking at it right now.
Wade could retire tommorow, and he'd be better. They both have 8 all star seasons, so all it's really coming down to is who you think was better at their best.

[Toizumi]

D-Whistle was more of a flash in the pan (2006 finals). Hasn't led a team out of the first round besides 2005 when Shaq was at the tail end of his prime, and before LeBron joined.


nice one :oldlol:
I disagree with you though. Wade was really great in both 08-09 and 09-10. He carried two bad Heat rosters to the playoffs, with MVP like regular season performances. Michael Beasley was arguably the 2nd best player on both those teams and he was just a rookie in 08-09. I don't remember much of the Hawks series in 09, but I remember that some people actually thought the Heat would stand a chance against the C's in the first round in the 2010 playoffs (mostly Heat fans/Celtic haters, but still). Claiming that Wade (and his team) could possibly upset the Celtics. He played that great in the regular season...

My vote goes to Dwyane Wade.
I've seen some Clyde footage and read about his impact on games and I don't think he's on the same level as Dwade..
I might be biased though, since I've actually witnessed Wade for his entire career. Frazier has the edge defensively, but Wade's offensive impact and leadership give him the edge.

[G.O.A.T]

I wouldn't normally use an argument like durability to determine which player I'd rather have, but here I will.

I'll take Frazier over Wade, by a slight margin, for now.

What you essentially have with both players is a seven year span, starting in their second professional season, where they consistently, when healthy, were among the best 2-3 guards in the NBA. They were excellent to elite players on both sides of the ball (Wade elite offensive, excellent defensive, Clyde vice versa) who when they had the right teammates around them were good enough, especially in the clutch to lead that team to a title.

Now I do think Wade has such a edge as an elite scorer that he might be on another level, however I am not wholly convinced of that as I've only seen one postseason run where he was able to play the style needed to be an elite playoff scorer and make it through the post season healthy.

Frazier never got the chance. he played for the Holzma Knicks which were the epitome of team. 4-6 guys could give you 15-20 most nights, rightly so, no one was asked to be an elite scorer. But Frazier did give you 20-25 on high efficency consistently. And when he was needed to, he could and did score big:

Game seven of the '70 Finals has been mentioned (36 points 12-17 fgs 12-12 fts)
But he also went for 25 points on 10-15 shooting in game seven of the 1973 Conference Finals against 68-win Boston. No other player topped 20 in that game a 92-88 Knicks win.
Frazier had 35 in game four (17 in the 4th, 10 in the two ots) of that series with the Knicks winning in double overtime to tie it at 2-2. Jo Jo White has 33 through regulation but was held scoreless by Frazier in both OT's.

So to reiterate, while I do believe that when healthy Wade gives more teams a chance to win a title than Frazier, the key is when healthy. If I am assuming that I am going to get both guys for seven prime seasons and seven only, than it is very important to me that the player I select is healthy through as many of those seasons as possible, especially at the end.

In 2005 Wade was injured against the Pistons. He missed game six, played injured in game seven and Detroit took the final two games and won the series. A healthy Wade and Miami may/probably does advance.

In 2007 and 2008 injuries to Wade kept the Heat from ever getting on track, they took a quick exit one year and missed the playoffs the next despite defending the 2006 title.

In 2009 injuries kept Wade from playing to his fullest and cost the Heat a series against the Hawks and an early exit. Wade started laboring as early as the fourth game of the series.

Basically in half of Wade's pro seasons he has wore down before the end of the year and his team was without that player who is a level above Frazier. So unless I have a solid nucleus with a 5-7 year window, Frazier is the better bet to get my a ring. Heck, as Frazier showed, even if my other star gets injured, Clyde can raise his game and the team can still win.

Clyde was good for 77-80 games a year and always seemed in the best shape on the floor. He wore down opponents over the course of the game and over the course of the season.

If Wade's career ended today or soon, it would be because of injuries, durability. At that point you'd have to apply the same thing to him we do for Walton and Stokes and Moncrief and any other player whose career was cut short prematurely.

We're entering the territory of guys who can lead you to a title and put you in contention as or more often than not. That's what it is all about. Wade seems to be as strong as ever right now. If LBJ shows up in the finals, he probably has a second ring and finals MVP and this is a no-brainer. But until he proves what I suspect, I have to go with the guy who I know is going to be healthy in my hypothetical scenario and who I know won two titles in reality. One day I'm pretty sure this vote will be for Wade, but night now it's Frazier all the way.

[RobertdeMeijer]

I also feel like Wade isn't there yet. He might be better than Walt Frazier, but he wasn't as healthy either. So far, Walt Frazier has a tad more honors and I think he's a much more interesting player to remember (part of the great Knicks team, had style, had great games)

[Niquesports]

D-Whistle was more of a flash in the pan (2006 finals). Hasn't led a team out of the first round besides 2005 when Shaq was at the tail end of his prime, and before LeBron joined.

Give me Clyde who was:
one of the best big game players of all time.
one of the best defensive guards of all time.
one of the single greatest Game 7 performances of all time.

He was a better pickpocket. As good on the boards. Better playmaker. Better shut-down defender. More clutch, & more level-headed.

Most important: Clyde had the best high-post game of all time. If Wade had this, the Miami Heat would be champs by now, and have a guaranteed berth in the Finals for the next 4 years.

OTOH: Wade was far more athletic, & had plenty of big games in the playoffs, but mostly due to slashing to the hoop depending on open lanes. As he matures, nears 30, his jumpshot has yet to solidify.

This comparison is somewhat premature because Wade may have a longer peak than Clyde, who only had 9 good years, and a title or two may push him past the Dapper Dan.


I can see this go either way.
I think you missed Clyde playing if you think Wade is a better defender.
They both were outstanding big time players and can score in burst.
Saying is more athletic is some what unfair. There is so much more we know about fitness than they did in the 70's. No one had a Personal trainer and nutrionist to keep them at peak condition.
FOr my pick Today CLYDEIF Wade keeps playing on this level for 5 to 6 more years Wade.

[Niquesports]

Wade


-Better scorer
-Much better at attacking the hoop and getting to the foul line
-Better help defender
-Better shot blocker
-Much more athletic
-Can defend 1's, 2's, and even some 3's because of his wingspan and strength


Clyde was a bit more versatile offensively, while Wade was a bit more versatile defensively. Walt was better overall as a defender though. I like Wade here because of his ability to get to the foul line, his ability to score 30+ points on good shooting percentages, his ability to guard multiple positions, his shot blocking ability, and his ability to take over games scoring wise.


I cant agree with you on getting to the foul line. You would have to show blood in the 70's to get to the foul line.They had hand checking you could bump the defender . Also there was not as many body fouls called on a defender as in todays NBA. So Wade has an era advantage not that he was better at getting to the line.

[G.O.A.T]

The lack of activity in this thread suggests to me a lack of knowledge about Frazier which perhaps explains the lopsided voting between two players who are undoubtedly very close at this point.

[SuperPippen]

The lack of activity in this thread suggests to me a lack of knowledge about Frazier which perhaps explains the lopsided voting between two players who are undoubtedly very close at this point.

That would definitely explain the relative lack of interest so far in this thread. There is simply so much more information to analyze and discuss about Wade than there is about Frazier.

[Papaya Petee]

As much of a Wade fan I am, this has to be him.

Much more dominant stats, already has just as much if not more achievements only 8 years in his career, shows that he plays his best in the playoffs. 6'3 but plays with a ton of heart. Great all-around player, and a very good defender.

Finals MVP, Championship, multiple All-NBA teams, All-Defensive teams, best player on a Gold Medal team, etc. etc.

People seem to forget he's only about 60% done with his career as well. Once Wade retires, the only guards in his way will be Kobe, Jordan and Magic.

[Miller for 3]

As of now, I think Wade has passed up Fraizer. Both are terrific big game players. Frazier the better rebounder and defender, Wade the better offensive player. It's really close but I think Wade has passed up Frazier based on what he has accomplished during his peak. My vote is for Dwyane Wade

[G.O.A.T]

As much of a Wade fan I am, this has to be him.




Much more dominant stats

Not true



already has just as much if not more achievements only 8 years in his career

Almost as many wuld be more accurate. They are equal in all-NBA nods, but Frzier made the first team twice as often. Equal in all-star selections, but Frazier was a starter more. Both have one all-star game MVP. Frazier has a 7-3 edge in all-defensive teams and all of his are first teams while Wade has never cracked the top five. Frazier has one more ring and one more Finals appaerance. They both have the same number of rings as the man.


shows that he plays his best in the playoffs. 6'3 but plays with a ton of heart.

Sounds like Frazier


Great all-around player, and a very good defender.

Exactly how most would describe Frazier.


People seem to forget he's only about 60% done with his career as well. Once Wade retires, the only guards in his way will be Kobe, Jordan and Magic.

If everything works out ideally. But we have to judge him on right now. What if gets injured and never plays again. What if he falls off and becomes a borderline all-star or worse a la T-MAC at his age?

[Kblaze8855]

One can clearly say Frazier has the edge in accomplishments. But if that is all its about then would we even need to do anything aside from read a bio on each?

Ive seen Frazier play. No doubt ive not seen him enough to know his game inside and out. But ive seen him.

I have a hard time saying hes as good as Wade is just...at playing basketball. So its hard for me to vote for him.

Not like he was just dominant to an epic degree or anything. He won with amazingly talented teams and Reed won both finals MVPs I believe(though the second one he didnt do much during the season).

Wade from what ive seen just plays basketball better. No hate on Walt at all. Perhaps he just rarely had reason to go all out. But ive seen Wade do some borderline superhuman shit.

Not sure Fraziers legacy means more to me than that.

[1987_Lakers]

This is very tough, I consider Frazier to be one of the most underrated players in history, very little people know about his game & I consider Wade one of the most underrated players of his era because he gets overlooked by guys like LeBron & Kobe when Wade is clearly on their level. Both players are excellent playoff performers and they led their teams to championships. I'm pretty sure Wade will be ranked higher by the time he retires, but as of right now I vote Frazier, if the Heat won the title this past year I might of voted Wade.

[KGMN]

I think I'll take Walt Frazier, although I'm nearly certain that Wade would get my vote in a couple of seasons.

[MasterDurant24]

I wouldn't normally use an argument like durability to determine which player I'd rather have, but here I will.

I'll take Frazier over Wade, by a slight margin, for now.

What you essentially have with both players is a seven year span, starting in their second professional season, where they consistently, when healthy, were among the best 2-3 guards in the NBA. They were excellent to elite players on both sides of the ball (Wade elite offensive, excellent defensive, Clyde vice versa) who when they had the right teammates around them were good enough, especially in the clutch to lead that team to a title.

Now I do think Wade has such a edge as an elite scorer that he might be on another level, however I am not wholly convinced of that as I've only seen one postseason run where he was able to play the style needed to be an elite playoff scorer and make it through the post season healthy.

Frazier never got the chance. he played for the Holzma Knicks which were the epitome of team. 4-6 guys could give you 15-20 most nights, rightly so, no one was asked to be an elite scorer. But Frazier did give you 20-25 on high efficency consistently. And when he was needed to, he could and did score big:

Game seven of the '70 Finals has been mentioned (36 points 12-17 fgs 12-12 fts)
But he also went for 25 points on 10-15 shooting in game seven of the 1973 Conference Finals against 68-win Boston. No other player topped 20 in that game a 92-88 Knicks win.
Frazier had 35 in game four (17 in the 4th, 10 in the two ots) of that series with the Knicks winning in double overtime to tie it at 2-2. Jo Jo White has 33 through regulation but was held scoreless by Frazier in both OT's.

So to reiterate, while I do believe that when healthy Wade gives more teams a chance to win a title than Frazier, the key is when healthy. If I am assuming that I am going to get both guys for seven prime seasons and seven only, than it is very important to me that the player I select is healthy through as many of those seasons as possible, especially at the end.

In 2005 Wade was injured against the Pistons. He missed game six, played injured in game seven and Detroit took the final two games and won the series. A healthy Wade and Miami may/probably does advance.

In 2007 and 2008 injuries to Wade kept the Heat from ever getting on track, they took a quick exit one year and missed the playoffs the next despite defending the 2006 title.

In 2009 injuries kept Wade from playing to his fullest and cost the Heat a series against the Hawks and an early exit. Wade started laboring as early as the fourth game of the series.

Basically in half of Wade's pro seasons he has wore down before the end of the year and his team was without that player who is a level above Frazier. So unless I have a solid nucleus with a 5-7 year window, Frazier is the better bet to get my a ring. Heck, as Frazier showed, even if my other star gets injured, Clyde can raise his game and the team can still win.

Clyde was good for 77-80 games a year and always seemed in the best shape on the floor. He wore down opponents over the course of the game and over the course of the season.

If Wade's career ended today or soon, it would be because of injuries, durability. At that point you'd have to apply the same thing to him we do for Walton and Stokes and Moncrief and any other player whose career was cut short prematurely.

We're entering the territory of guys who can lead you to a title and put you in contention as or more often than not. That's what it is all about. Wade seems to be as strong as ever right now. If LBJ shows up in the finals, he probably has a second ring and finals MVP and this is a no-brainer. But until he proves what I suspect, I have to go with the guy who I know is going to be healthy in my hypothetical scenario and who I know won two titles in reality. One day I'm pretty sure this vote will be for Wade, but night now it's Frazier all the way.

This has convinced me to change my vote. I agree that Wade hasn't been doing it long enough nor been healthy enough to be put over Frazier yet.

[G.O.A.T]

We've got a race here now; 9-7 Wade

Going to keep the voting open until at least noon tomorrow. That will make the 48 hour mark. Should be able to get online and tally by then.

[Rose]

Frazier.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I vote for Dwyane Wade

His great play during the '06 ECF and especially the finals tops anything many all-time greats have done, and I don't see it as a fluke considering he was playing like arguably the best player in the playoffs the previous season before his injury. And I think he was an even better player in 2009.

I do think that the point about durability is valid, and it's a problem for me when ranking Wade because he's also only played 8 seasons. But I'm 99% certain that I've seen Wade at his best considering he's 30, and I pretty much agree with KBlaze that while I don't have the same perspective on Frazier that I do on Wade, from what I know and have seen, I consider Wade the better player. Frazier's longevity isn't enough to offset that advantage for me.

[Kblaze8855]

Things like this really ake me wonder what we are going for.

People vote Frazier.

Make one of these guys a GM...dream job for guys like us....job on the line....

You can have Wade or Frazier...I dont buy most of the frazier votes taking Frazier.

If that is indeed the case....

What are we ranking/

If it really is just accomplishments how do we even have arguments? just arguments on how much each person values each line of his resume?

If how good you are isnt the main issue...whats the point?

I suspect when someone runs into Cousy im going to be quite annoyed.

[Rose]

I just think Frazier played about as good as Wade has in his era, played good defense, and his longevity wins out. Now if Wade had played about 3-4 more years...this would be a harder decision.

[Kblaze8855]

A case could be made that Wade was the best player in the NBA at points. I dont happen to believe it. But the case could be made. In 09 the last 3 months:

31/9/5 50% shooting
34/8/5 on 50%
34/7/5 on 51

Really now...this guy was ****ing disgusting.

Vs the Bulls he drops 48/12 with not 1..not 2...but 3 huge 3s to win. One of them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxS170BsZPU

he rips Salmons and goes coast t ocoast for a 3 point floater in double OT for the game.


Which would have been shocking were he not doing such things all the time. He had 50/10/9 with 4 steals and 2 blocks 2 games later.

And then 55/9/4 in regulation a little later. But of course he had 46/10/8 with 4 steals and 4 blocks vs the same team he gave the double nickel too soooo...not like it was surprising.

And thats from a season of his career nobody ever cares about. He did win a title and finals MVP and at least got close to another and was in a close game 7 he was injured for to make a 3rd.

I have a hard time saying Wade isnt just flat out better than Frazier. The only thing that gives me pause is knowing wade so much better it feels like disrespect to say Frazier cant ____ as well when I didnt see him try.

But just sitting aside the legend admiration and going off likely reality...

Could Frazier do what we have seen Wade do?

I dont think so.

Can Wade do what we have seen Frazier do? win with a team stacked beyond belief?

Of course. Hes won with a team only...kinda stacked.

Ranking Frazier over Wade requires me to ignore too much.

Wade...if we are being real...really real?

Hes performed at levels usually reserved for titans of the game. West. Oscar. Jordan.

He may or may not be that good. But hes done more to shine as an individual than anyone has alerted me to Frazier doing.

[Story Up]

Kblaze, as a GM I would take McGrady from 01-06 over 10 guys above him, what's your point?

Say Wade has a career ending injury, do you honestly believe he'd surpass Walt's legacy with his first 8 seasons?

**** no.

[G-train]

A case could be made that Wade was the best player in the NBA at points. I dont happen to believe it. But the case could be made. In 09 the last 3 months:

31/9/5 50% shooting
34/8/5 on 50%
34/7/5 on 51

Really now...this guy was ****ing disgusting.

Vs the Bulls he drops 48/12 with not 1..not 2...but 3 huge 3s to win. One of them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxS170BsZPU

he rips Salmons and goes coast t ocoast for a 3 point floater in double OT for the game.


Which would have been shocking were he not doing such things all the time. He had 50/10/9 with 4 steals and 2 blocks 2 games later.

And then 55/9/4 in regulation a little later. But of course he had 46/10/8 with 4 steals and 4 blocks vs the same team he gave the double nickel too soooo...not like it was surprising.

And thats from a season of his career nobody ever cares about. He did win a title and finals MVP and at least got close to another and was in a close game 7 he was injured for to make a 3rd.

I have a hard time saying Wade isnt just flat out better than Frazier. The only thing that gives me pause is knowing wade so much better it feels like disrespect to say Frazier cant ____ as well when I didnt see him try.

But just sitting aside the legend admiration and going off likely reality...

Could Frazier do what we have seen Wade do?

I dont think so.

Can Wade do what we have seen Frazier do? win with a team stacked beyond belief?

Of course. Hes won with a team only...kinda stacked.

Ranking Frazier over Wade requires me to ignore too much.

Wade...if we are being real...really real?

Hes performed at levels usually reserved for titans of the game. West. Oscar. Jordan.

He may or may not be that good. But hes done more to shine as an individual than anyone has alerted me to Frazier doing.

Good post.

[sh0wtime]

Correction:

Walt Frazier was 7 times on the 1st All-Defensive team.

Dwyane Wade was 3 times on the 2nd All-Defensive team.

I believe there is a difference.

[G-train]

To me shooting guard play has really evolved over the years, and its mainly Jordans doing. He dared to dominate on both ends, and more importantly he had the physical tools to do so. Evolution.

A guy like Frazier doesnt have Wade's genetics, combined with skills. Heck no one really did back then compared to now.

Makes it hard for old school 2 guards in comparisons like this.

[G-train]

Correction:

Walt Frazier was 7 times on the 1st All-Defensive team.

Dwyane Wade was a 2 times on the 2nd All-Defensive team.

I believe there is a difference.

I think we have established that all defensive teams are garbage.
Wade is a better shot blocker than Frazier, and his man on man D is good to great, Frazier definitely great.

But its not the gap the quoted post makes it sound like.

[eliteballer]

In a general sense, in term of ability Frazier seems similar to Payton, and Payton wasnt as good as Wade.

[sh0wtime]

I think we have established that all defensive teams are garbage.
Wade is a better shot blocker than Frazier, and his man on man D is good to great, Frazier definitely great.

But its not the gap the quoted post makes it sound like.

Another correction aswell:

Walt Frazier was 4 times on the 1st All-NBA team.

Dwyane Wade was 2 times on the 1st All-NBA team.

I think it would be better if the OP added that perk showing if it was the 1st or 2nd team, i believe there is somewhat of a difference whether you like it or not.

[G-train]

Another correction aswell:

Walt Frazier was 4 times on the 1st All-NBA team.

Dwyane Wade was 2 times on the 1st All-NBA team.

I think it would be better if the OP added that perk showing if it was the 1st or 2nd team, i believe there is somewhat of a difference whether you like it or not.

There needs to be context.

Who did he defeat to be all defensive? Who didnt wade defeat? Who actually was a better defender from tapes?

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't think my vote will count but i will contribute my points:

Walt Fraizer:

Regular Season
18.9ppg 5.9reb 6.1ast 49.0%fg 78.6%ft

Playoffs
20.7ppg 7.2reb 6.4ast 51.1%fg 75.1%ft

Dwyane Wade:

Regular Season
25.4ppg 5.1reb 6.3ast 48.5%fg 76.9%ft

Playoffs
25.9ppg 5.7reb 5.6ast 48.3%fg 78.9%ft

-Did not include steals, block, and %3pt because they were not recorded officially for Fraizer's first 6 years.

Offense: Wade
Defense: Fraizer

Top 5 rivals at the guard position during their prime:

Walt Fraizer

-Oscar Robertson
-Jerry West
-Tiny Archibald
-Gail Goodrich
-Pete Maravich

Dwyane Wade

-Kobe Bryant
-Allen Iverson
-Tracy McGrady
-Steve Nash
-Jason Kidd


Both players have strongly been considered the best guard in the league at one point their career.

Finals Performances

Walt Fraizer

1970 Finals
17.6ppg 7.7reb 10.4ast 54.1%fg 75.6%ft

vs opposing starting guards

Jerry West
31.3ppg 3.4reb 7.7ast 45.0%fg 83.3%ft

Dick Garrett
13.0ppg 2.6reb 2.1ast 47.4%fg 94.4%ft

1973 Finals
16.6ppg 6.8reb 5.0ast 47.9%fg 65.0%ft

vs opposing starting guards

Gail Goodrich
21.8ppg 5.6reb 3.0ast 46.2%fg 75.8%ft

Jerry West
21.4ppg 3.2reb 4.6ast 44.2%fg 67.6%ft


Dwyane Wade

2006 Finals
34.7ppg 7.8reb 3.8ast 46.8%fg 77.3%ft

vs opposing starting guards

Jason Terry
22.0ppg 2.2reb 3.5ast 47.8%fg 73.3%ft

Devin Harris
7.3ppg 0.8reb 2.8ast 36.4%fg 75.0%ft

2011 Finals
26.5ppg 7.0reb 5.2ast 54.6%fg 69.4%ft

vs opposing starting guards

Jason Kidd
7.7ppg 4.5reb 6.3ast 38.9%fg 75.0%ft

DeShawn Stevenson
7.0ppg 1.5reb 0.3ast 54.2%fg 75.0%ft

*Jason Terry
18.0ppg 2.0reb 3.2ast 49.4%fg 75.0%ft

*J.J. Barea
8.8ppg 2.2reb 3.2ast 38.2%fg 71.4%ft

*They had more minutes played and Barea also started as well.



Which brings me to my conclusion:

Dwyane Wade is a dynamic scorer and is the current best guard in the game. He is a great two-player. Much better help defender than man to man defender. He has shown up many times in big games.



Walt Fraizer is an excellent two way player as well. He has more accomplishments as of now and he is the better defender than Wade. 7x All-Defense First Teams to 0.

I think this moment and clutch game and moment (Willis Reed too) by Fraizer seperates him from Wade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqQR_G0_Zc&feature=related

Now granted Wade played terrific in 2006 Finals, but not really many moments that you could recall back too, at least not from my memory. Walt had the emphasis game. It's really close between these two and Wade should rightfully so pass him one day.

For now though, I vote Walt Fraizer

[Kblaze8855]

Wade will never surpass Bob Cousys legacy. Doesnt mean he isnt better at basketball.

But greatness I suppose isnt...being the best. Its kinda abstract.

But to me...being the best has to weigh the most heavy.

And for the record I dont put Walt with Cousy as a player I dont think just...played basketball well by our standards. he played int othe late 70s. Played plenty of guys Bird and Magic types would go on t oplay.

But I just see no evidence he was individually as dominant as wade has been.

The minute his star bigmen were gone the Knicks didnt matter. Reed and Debusschere retired the same year. Next season Walt was still one of 3 all stars in their primes. Teams went sub .500 and lost inthe first round. In fact they were sub .500 for 3 straight years and Frazier was healthy in 2 of them. and they had at least 3 all stars all 3 years(though one of the 3 the last year was Mcadoo who was out some games).

The Knicks never had an untalented team but the instant Reed and Dave were gone the Knicks were middle of the pack. And walt was 28-31 just as wade has been the last few years and an all star all 4 years and all NBA first teamer in 2 of them. That team was built of great talent, teamwork, and its bigmen. Not my opinion. What ive heard the players themselves say. Ive heard from Fraziers mouth that Reed was the Knicks leader.

But here we are 40 years later changing the story?

Frazier minus a HOF frontcourt...even with a HOF backcourt...was sub .500 for years at a time.

But hes just better than Wade? Because of accomplishments with 4-6 hall of famers?

Will someone show me anyone anywhere who has knowledge of the team saying Frazier was better than Willis reed?

Reed was back there dropping 50/20. Ive seen him whoring legends of the game in the post, hitting 20 footers, blocking shots, running the floor like nothing and finishing in traffic. holding down the D.

Why does Frazier deserve credit for those teams when everyone seems to think its Reed who led them? Reed won both finals MVPs. Reed was named MVp of the NBA...by the players.

But now...Frazier was the man?

I dont see any evidence Frazier was more than...one of several stars on a team loaded with htem. Yes he had a 36 point game 7. He had a 6 point game 1 as Reed had 37/16/5 too. Then 29/15. 38/17. 23/12(Frazier was 3-11 with 16 points and assists in 51 minutes that game). whole finals Frazier put up 18/8. DeBusschere? 19/13.

That was a team if ever there was one. To call anyone the man seems totally against the opinions of those I believe should know(players, coaches, and fans from the era). But if you gotta call someone the man...how is it not the MVP of the league and 2 time finals MVP?

Frazier without the bigmen was in his prime and healthy finishing behind Sam Lacey, Doug Collins, and Paul Silas in MVP voting.

But he was elite the way Wade is?

Seems like we gotta look the other way o na whole lot to say Frazier.

Im not calling anyone picking him an idiot. I just...cant look past as much as it seem they can.

Like the fact that Wade is probably just flat out better than Walt. And if he isnt...it seems hes more highly regarded now than Walt was then.

[sh0wtime]

There needs to be context.

Who did he defeat to be all defensive? Who didnt wade defeat? Who actually was a better defender from tapes?

I am not sure who Walt defeated and i am not sure who Wade defeated either to get there.

Who actually was a better defender? It certainly was not Wade i can tell you that. Walt Frazier was one of the best perimeter defenders in NBA history and many would place him even at the top. He was one extremly smart defender in the vein of Bruce Bowen, which for example means he didnt gamble for blocks & steals as often as Wade leaving his man open for a jumpshot or layups-dunks because he didnt get the block or steal he gambled for, on the statsheet it may give you an extra block, but in the defensive IQ department a minus. This is one bad habit Wade still has defensively somewhat and that was according to me the reason to why he could never be a 1st team All-Defender. Walt Frazier's defensive IQ, instincts and quick hands became one of his trade marks; the brand of defense he played revolved around deception and timing. He mastered also the art of appearing to let his guard down, and then when the offensive player took a breather he would swipe the ball with full success, deflecting it or stealing it and be on the other end of the court getting two points.

The steals were not recorded back in his prime prime, but when they finally started to record that in 1974, he was 28-29 and getting around 2-2.4 steals a game. So i would assume he might have averaged more than that previously, a very comparable perimeter defender to him in every aspect is Gary Payton.

[G-train]

I am not sure who Walt defeated and i am not sure who Wade defeated either to get there.

Who actually was a better defender? It certainly was not Wade i can tell you that. Walt Frazier was one of the best perimeter defenders in NBA history and many would place him even at the top. He was one extremly smart defender in the vein of Bruce Bowen, which for example means he didnt gamble for blocks & steals as often as Wade leaving his man open for a jumpshot or layups-dunks because he didnt get the block or steal he gambled for, on the statsheet it may give you an extra block, but in the defensive IQ department a minus. This is one bad habit Wade still has defensively somewhat and that was according to me the reason to why he could never be a 1st team All-Defender. Walt Frazier's defensive IQ, instincts and quick hands became one of his trade marks; the brand of defense he played revolved around deception and timing. He mastered also the art of appearing to let his guard down, and then when the offensive player took a breather he would swipe the ball with full success, deflecting it or stealing it and be on the other end of the court getting two points.

The steals were not recorded back in his prime prime, but when they finally started to record that in 1974, he was 28-29 and getting around 2-2.4 steals a game. So i would assume he might have averaged more than that previously, a very comparable perimeter defender to him in every aspect is Gary Payton.


I agree Frazier is an excellent defender but I would say Wade is a great defender but twice the athlete.
Like Walt Frazier meeting 7 foot centres at rim and blocking the shot? Please. Wouldnt happen.

The gap really isnt 7 1st teams to 3 second teams. Its much closer.
And who cares if he doesnt make all d teams when you have Kobe making them walking around on one leg and Tony Allen making them playing 20 mins a game.

[Gotterdammerung]

Kblaze, you're on the verge of mentioning this:

Walt had a short career, a short prime.

13 years, 9 quality, 7 all-stars, and top 5 in 70, 72, 74, 75. 9 good years and that's it. No drug or injury cut it short. Which leads to the possibility that he was perfect for his time:

No 3 point line.
No dribble & dish.
No complicated defensive strategies.
Physical guards who imposed their will with high post game.

After the merger, the game got faster with quicksilver guards like John Lucas, Nixon, Gus Williams, Kevin Porter. Clyde didn't have it by then. Was he exposed? :confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

Another correction aswell:

Walt Frazier was 4 times on the 1st All-NBA team.

Dwyane Wade was 2 times on the 1st All-NBA team.

I think it would be better if the OP added that perk showing if it was the 1st or 2nd team, i believe there is somewhat of a difference whether you like it or not.
Has to be put into context though. Wade got completely robbed this year (as did a couple other guards) and Frazier played in one of the two weakest eras of the NBA.
As usual, I complete agree with KBlaze. I feel what he's said is a much more well written more fleshed out version of what I've tried to say the past two threads. Great post.
Also, it's worth mentioning that during the 73 run, the Knicks beat the 73 Celtics, who had the leagues best record (68 wins) in a series where Havlicek was out for two games, and wasn't 100% afterwards. That's a pretty big advantage.

[Kblaze8855]

And im not even sure we ave longevity to take from Wade

you could argue Frazier was one of the best playersi n the league for 7 years. From his 3rd season to his 9th. And thats being generous. because in his 9th Walt put up 19/7/6 as the 3rd leading scorer on a 38 win team and was 18th in MVP voting coming in behind his teammate Earl Monroe. And the season before that he played 78 games won 40 and was 15th in MVp voting. And the MVp in 75 didnt win 50 games and the MVP the next season was on a 40 win team. So its not like the league wouldnt show love to dominant players n bad teams at the time.

But even with all that..im calling Walt in 75 and 76 elite to show im not putting anything in Wades favor unfairly.

So 7 years hes a top flight player.

Wade? 5. And thats not counting 2 51 game seasons....even though I counted a 59 game season for Walt.

Wade is 30. When Frazier was 30 he was quickly falling off and soon to be traded to the Cavs. Wade and clyde both came in at 22. At 30 Wade is elite. At 30 Frazier was in decline.

Frazier got lucky enough to play his whole career never having to have young Beasley and Haslem as his backup. He played from like 68-74 on teams that were loaded and could win.

But he wasnt an elite player any longer than Wade(ignoring for a moment that its arguable he never was elite to begin with).

So how does he get longevity? Winning more with teams that should win more from 22-30 doesnt mean you were great for longer. Wade only has one more heavily injured season too.

Im nto sure Walt really has Wade beat in anything im hearing listed in his favor.

Im not gonna say Walt wasnt a better defender. Im not sure.

I know Walt held West to like 32% shooting one finals. I also read that Monroe abused Walt so bad he literally went to his room and cried. So....

Cant call that one.

I just feel we are ignoring the obvious in a lot of ways in here...

Wade isnt getting a fair shake because Walt gets legend status despite not being great any longer, probably being factually worse, and his teams also doing nothing when they were not loaded.

Wade is getting some "modern athlete" disregarding I dont think should be going on. Its not disrespect to rank wade over Walt.

When Wade is gone hes a legend too. If he retires tomorrow....hes a legend.

Its one legend over another. I just dont see much evidence the 70s legend played ball better than the modern one in this case.

Plenty of old school players can be ranked over wade without a peep out of me.

Im not sure walt justifies it.

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze, you're on the verge of mentioning this:

Walt had a short career, a short prime.

13 years, 9 quality, 7 all-stars, and top 5 in 70, 72, 74, 75. 9 good years and that's it. No drug or injury cut it short.

Good timing.

[SuperPippen]

Wade will never surpass Bob Cousys legacy. Doesnt mean he isnt better at basketball.

But greatness I suppose isnt...being the best. Its kinda abstract.

But to me...being the best has to weigh the most heavy.

And for the record I dont put Walt with Cousy as a player I dont think just...played basketball well by our standards. he played int othe late 70s. Played plenty of guys Bird and Magic types would go on t oplay.

But I just see no evidence he was individually as dominant as wade has been.

The minute his star bigmen were gone the Knicks didnt matter. Reed and Debusschere retired the same year. Next season Walt was still one of 3 all stars in their primes. Teams went sub .500 and lost inthe first round. In fact they were sub .500 for 3 straight years and Frazier was healthy in 2 of them. and they had at least 3 all stars all 3 years(though one of the 3 the last year was Mcadoo who was out some games).

The Knicks never had an untalented team but the instant Reed and Dave were gone the Knicks were middle of the pack. And walt was 28-31 just as wade has been the last few years and an all star all 4 years and all NBA first teamer in 2 of them. That team was built of great talent, teamwork, and its bigmen. Not my opinion. What ive heard the players themselves say. Ive heard from Fraziers mouth that Reed was the Knicks leader.

But here we are 40 years later changing the story?

Frazier minus a HOF frontcourt...even with a HOF backcourt...was sub .500 for years at a time.

But hes just better than Wade? Because of accomplishments with 4-6 hall of famers?

Will someone show me anyone anywhere who has knowledge of the team saying Frazier was better than Willis reed?

Reed was back there dropping 50/20. Ive seen him whoring legends of the game in the post, hitting 20 footers, blocking shots, running the floor like nothing and finishing in traffic. holding down the D.

Why does Frazier deserve credit for those teams when everyone seems to think its Reed who led them? Reed won both finals MVPs. Reed was named MVp of the NBA...by the players.

But now...Frazier was the man?

I dont see any evidence Frazier was more than...one of several stars on a team loaded with htem. Yes he had a 36 point game 7. He had a 6 point game 1 as Reed had 37/16/5 too. Then 29/15. 38/17. 23/12(Frazier was 3-11 with 16 points and assists in 51 minutes that game). whole finals Frazier put up 18/8. DeBusschere? 19/13.

That was a team if ever there was one. To call anyone the man seems totally against the opinions of those I believe should know(players, coaches, and fans from the era). But if you gotta call someone the man...how is it not the MVP of the league and 2 time finals MVP?

Frazier without the bigmen was in his prime and healthy finishing behind Sam Lacey, Doug Collins, and Paul Silas in MVP voting.

But he was elite the way Wade is?

Seems like we gotta look the other way o na whole lot to say Frazier.

Im not calling anyone picking him an idiot. I just...cant look past as much as it seem they can.

Like the fact that Wade is probably just flat out better than Walt. And if he isnt...it seems hes more highly regarded now than Walt was then.

Anyone who has watched both Wade play and Frazier play are obviously going to say Wade looks like clearly the superior basketball player. But aren't they both a product of their respective eras?

Who's to say that if Wade was born in 1945 instead of Frazier, and was raised playing a less sophisticated version of the game, maybe he'd only be as good as someone like Hal Greer?

And who's to say that if Frazier was born in 1982 instead of Wade, and grew up playing a more developed version of the game, maybe he'd be as or better than someone like Gary Payton, with superior passing skills?

If that were to have happened, than we'd be looking at old, grainy tape of Wade playing during the 60's and 70's and thinking, "Yea, that guy was good, but he wouldn't be as good today. It's obvious that Frazier is just better."

[Kblaze8855]

Kareem was born in 1947. I dont think Wade is better. Doctor J...no hate from me. And its not the spectacular players I just favor. I never thought too much about Pistol Pete. But you can watch him just destroy guys using moves you dont even see today.

Ive seen Cowens put inwork. nate thurmond. Bob Mcadoo impressed me a lot.

Walt? Its not a lack of amazing plays. I just never saw him do much to blow me away.

Make an open 18 footer? Yes. A layup on the break? sure. a little one handed crossover and scoop shot? Yes. Ive seen him play good defense.

But hes not one of the old school guys who just stand out when I watch him.

Wes Unseld never did anything exciting that I saw. But I watched a game where he had like 10/14 and thought he was the best player on the floor.

Walt? Just never got that feeling. Again...ive not seen a whole lot of him. But what I did see didnt blow me away.

[G.O.A.T]

And im not even sure we ave longevity to take from Wade

Longevity not as much as durability. Frazier was healthy for seven prime seasons, Wade for just three.



you could argue Frazier was one of the best playersi n the league for 7 years. From his 3rd season to his 9th. And thats being generous. because in his 9th Walt put up 19/7/6 as the 3rd leading scorer on a 38 win team and was 18th in MVP voting coming in behind his teammate Earl Monroe.

His prime years would actually be his second season (68-69) through 1974-75. He was splitting time with Em Bryant and Butch Komives as a rookie. Early in his second year he became the starter. He played so well that New York felt Komives was expendable and traded him along with Walt Bellamy to Detroit for DeBusschere. The combination of Frazier in the starting line-up and DeBusschere replacing Bellamy allowing Reed to move back to center is what made the Knicks take off. It was in the 1975 off-season that Frazier began to really break down. In his biography he talks about going to the Doctors complaining about pain in his knees and ankles the doctors not being able to find anything wrong. The next year he misses 25 games (never missed more than five during his prime) and was never the same player.



And the season before that he played 78 games won 40 and was 15th in MVp voting. And the MVp in 75 didnt win 50 games and the MVP the next season was on a 40 win team. So its not like the league wouldnt show love to dominant players n bad teams at the time.

Two things

1) The MVP voting. The players locked in on centers. A center won the MVP every year in the 70's. Frazier didn't get a lot of MVP love compared to centers, but compared to the best perimeter players of the era he was fine.

In 1970 only Jerry West received more MVP votes than Frazier amongst non-centers. Frazier outplayed him then in the Finals.
In 1971 Kareem got almost every vote and Reed took all the Knicks votes. Three non-centers received votes (Bing, Oscar, West)
In 1972 only Hondo and Jerry West got more MVP love
In 1973 just Hondo , West and Tiny during his epic season.
In 1974 Frazier received more MVP love than any non-center

So basically he was getting similar love to West and Hondo in the MVP voting.

2) The 1974-75 season. Saying the Knicks only won 40 games is misleading. The won 40 games despite losing Reed, DeBusschere and Lucas to retirement all at once. That's all three of their top frontcourt guys.


But even with all that..im calling Walt in 75 and 76 elite to show im not putting anything in Wades favor unfairly.

Yes, but it also shows you haven't looked really in-depth at Frazier's career.


So 7 years hes a top flight player.

Wade? 5. And thats not counting 2 51 game seasons....even though I counted a 59 game season for Walt.

Take away that 59-game season for Walt, he was in bad shape by the end of it. And while Wade was certainly elite in 2005 and 2009, he also broke down with injuries before the playoffs ended.


Wade is 30. When Frazier was 30 he was quickly falling off and soon to be traded to the Cavs. Wade and clyde both came in at 22. At 30 Wade is elite. At 30 Frazier was in decline.

Change the eras they played in and it reverses heavily in Clyde's favor. With modern medicine Frazier could have gotten his knees fixed before they exploded in Cleveland. Without it, Wade might not come back from his injuries during the '05-'08 seasons.



But he wasnt an elite player any longer than Wade(ignoring for a moment that its arguable he never was elite to begin with).

There is no argument to suggest he wasn't elite. Seven years all-defensive first and four years all-NBA first plus being the best player and a 22-7-7-3 on a title team seals the deal.


So how does he get longevity? Winning more with teams that should win more from 22-30 doesnt mean you were great for longer. Wade only has one more heavily injured season too.

Frazier never got hurt once during his prime though, that's a major factor you've ignored (really guessed wrong on, not ignored)


Im nto sure Walt really has Wade beat in anything im hearing listed in his favor.

Im not gonna say Walt wasnt a better defender. Im not sure.

SEVEN TIMES ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM

Yes he was a better defender. If you don't know it's because you don't want to know.


I know Walt held West to like 32% shooting one finals. I also read that Monroe abused Walt so bad he literally went to his room and cried. So....

Cant call that one.

Earl Monroe torched a lot of people. However Fraziers Knicks took two of three series from Monroe's Bullets.


I just feel we are ignoring the obvious in a lot of ways in here...

Wade isnt getting a fair shake because Walt gets legend status despite not being great any longer, probably being factually worse, and his teams also doing nothing when they were not loaded.

How about when those loaded teams lost their MVP center for extended stretches and Frazier still either got them to or won the finals in the lead role?

I think it's Frazier who isn't getting the fair shake. In the same amount of prime seasons Frazier spent more time elite, made more all-NBA first teams, more all-defensive first teams and won more despite never playing with any teammates as good as Shaq or LeBron James.


Wade is getting some "modern athlete" disregarding I dont think should be going on.

Are we reading the same thread?

The exact opposite is what's happened here.


When Wade is gone hes a legend too. If he retires tomorrow....hes a legend.

Agreed. I just feel that he be a legend who's career wasn't as great as Clyde Frazier's.


Its one legend over another. I just dont see much evidence the 70s legend played ball better than the modern one in this case.

Plenty of old school players can be ranked over wade without a peep out of me.

Im not sure walt justifies it.

It's very close to be sure, but if you're saying you don't see evidence, you haven't looked hard enough. The case is out there and it's very clear, just as the case for Wade is. I hope this post helps you see it better.

Check out the book "Shoot the Lights Out" it'll give you more of an idea of how good Frazier was and what he meant to those Knicks teams.

[Boston C's]

wow

an 8 year career Wade is better than

Gary Payton
Clyde Drexler
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
John Stockton

in All-time Top 25 Guards??


i don't buy this

This... I'll take frazier only because wades resume is not finished yet

[G.O.A.T]

Close but no cigar for Clyde

Wade advances 10-9

[Kblaze8855]

This being over and me needing to get ready for work I dont feel like a point by point thing there...but ill say this...

With me giving Walt credit for being elite in 38 win seasons where he was out big chunks and you saying Wade has only had 3 elite healthy years makes me feel you are being more unfair to wade than I was to Walt. If 09 doesnt count for Wade...nothing should count for anyone. Being nicked up during a 78 game season doesnt mean you are too hurt to count it.

Wade has been near the top of the league in 05, 06, 09, 10, and 11 at least. Having a tight hamstring or something in May doesnt mean the season didnt happen or wasnt a full season on a high level.

And giving clyde personal credit for winning more on those teams just is not fair. No he didnt have Shaq or Lebron. But he had teams with 5 or 6 all stars at once. He had teams with 4 hall of famers in or near their primes at once. That team would have been good to great minus any single person on it.


And dont give me all D teams like it makes the guy with more factually superior on D. Battier only has 2....both second teams. In like 10 years. Hes better than a number of guys who make it over him right now. But who makes it 40 years apart makes one better for sure? I dont...know...that Walt will stop the same player at the same rate. Ive not seen him vs enough players. Ive probably seen him play 4-5 teams. Tops. More games than that but mostly finals games and a few ECF games. So a lot of games vs the same teams.

I dont know what happens with Walt on Kobe or Wade on West.

Ive not seen Walt play the kind of defense I know translates. Its hard for a guard to do that in his time really. Players were not attacked one on one out on islands the same way they are now. Not as often at least.


And its not misleading to say they won 38 games without the bigmen. That was the whole point. I mentioned the lack of the bigmen during that stretch. But they still had 2 or 3 all stars. Just how it is.

Walt never did a thing without a team with epic talent. To compare his winning to Wade with Beasley and Chalmers or...whoever?

Just doesnt strike me as fair.

Ive seen little visual evidence Frazier was as good as Wade and no evidence at all he could carry a poor team anywhere. His less talented teams were just him and "only" 2 or 3 hall of famers winning a lot of games or him going sub .500 for years in a row.

But to me all it comes down to...

give me Wade or Frazier?

I take wade. And I dont believe for a second that you wouldnt either. You might give me some "If he were born in 1980 and..." hypothetical but...as the players they are.....I dont see evidence Wade isnt better.

i cant say that of everyone from Walts era. But alot of people in Walts era were more dominant than he was and didnt need 5 hall of famers to do anything we remember.

Walt was hardly Rick Barry dragging Wilkes and a bunch of guys few even know existed to success or anything.

[G.O.A.T]

I don't think you understood most of my post, let me try to bring us together and be more cleare here.


With me giving Walt credit for being elite in 38 win seasons where he was out big chunks and you saying Wade has only had 3 elite healthy years makes me feel you are being more unfair to wade than I was to Walt. If 09 doesnt count for Wade...nothing should count for anyone. Being nicked up during a 78 game season doesnt mean you are too hurt to count it.

Wade has been near the top of the league in 05, 06, 09, 10, and 11 at least. Having a tight hamstring or something in May doesnt mean the season didnt happen or wasnt a full season on a high level.

First in regards to Frazier; I told you I think '69 not '76 is his seventh prime season, so you "crediting" him with that as an elite season doesn't compel me to think you have a better understanding of his career. He was healthy in '69 and the only reason his numbers aren't better is because he only played that prime role for about 60 games. He started the season splitting time with Komives.

You also misunderstood my position on Dwyane Wade. I said Wade had seven elite years and that he was only healthy throughout three of those seasons. I still count them as elite years but in factoring in which seven year prime I'd rather have, it is significant to me that Wade's being injured during the playoffs cost his team at least one series in 2005 and 2009 and his accumulation of injuries over the course of 2007 and 2008 never allowed his team to get on track. That only gives me three chances to win a title even if I have a quality roster around him all seven years.




And dont give me all D teams like it makes the guy with more factually superior on D.

When it's seven straight first team selections you can. That tells me, and what I've read and seen on my own reinforces it, that he had the reputation as the premier defensive guard of his day. Wade is not in that conversation for his era, so that seals it if your going to be objective about it. Start adding hypothetical and you can make a case for Wade, but if someone doesn't agree with your assumptions/conclusions than it is meaningless to them.



I dont know what happens with Walt on Kobe or Wade on West.

No one knows, and it doesn't matter because it isn't a realistic scenario. You can't objectively judge a player based on your opinion of something that couldn't happen.



Ive not seen Walt play the kind of defense I know translates. Its hard for a guard to do that in his time really. Players were not attacked one on one out on islands the same way they are now. Not as often at least.

So why would this factor in to your thinking? How is it fair to conclude he couldn't do something that he didn't need to do. Should he work on a part of his game that won't make him a better player?

What makes great players great is that they identify what they need to do to be great against who they are competing against.

This is how they should be measured.


And its not misleading to say they won 38 games without the bigmen. That was the whole point. I mentioned the lack of the bigmen during that stretch. But they still had 2 or 3 all stars. Just how it is.

Frazier was their only all-star the year they won 38. That's actually how it is. In 1975 the He and Monroe made it. But the East had nine teams, so having two all-stars wasn't a huge deal. Their best big man was Phil Jackson, a career back-up. Just like Wade in from '08 to '10 that team could only go so far.



Walt never did a thing without a team with epic talent. To compare his winning to Wade with Beasley and Chalmers or...whoever?
Just doesnt strike me as fair.

Wade never did a thing with Beasley and Chalmers and Frazier never played a single prime season without what you consider epic talent. Which one of us is being unfair? At no point did I suggest that because Wade couldn't take those guys to a title that he wasn't as good as Frazier.




Ive seen little visual evidence Frazier was as good as Wade and no evidence at all he could carry a poor team anywhere. His less talented teams were just him and "only" 2 or 3 hall of famers winning a lot of games or him going sub .500 for years in a row.

You've maybe seen 1% of Fraziers career. Yet you'd rather go with your opinion on that sample size than the myriad of opinions from experts (take that title for what it's worth) who actually witnessed his career?

The second half of the sentence convinces me you no very little about Frazier's career.


But to me all it comes down to...

give me Wade or Frazier?

I take wade. And I dont believe for a second that you wouldnt either. You might give me some "If he were born in 1980 and..." hypothetical but...as the players they are.....I dont see evidence Wade isnt better.

Yes I am lying because of my pro-Knick/Side Burns agenda.

Of course I'd take Frazier that's why I voted for him. It's a pretty tough decision and one day I think Wade will have done enough that I will prefer him, but right now is not that time.

You taking Wade now is fine, there is a reason the vote was so close. Vut statements like the one below are crap arguments.



Walt was hardly Rick Barry dragging Wilkes and a bunch of guys few even know existed to success or anything.

Another example of a nothing statement. He never had the chance to try and Wade never accomplished it either.

[Kblaze8855]

I think all I need to know about how youy look at this was said right here:


"Of course I'd take Frazier that's why I voted for him. It's a pretty tough decision and one day I think Wade will have done enough that I will prefer him, but right now is not that time."


Wade is never going to be better than he was in 09. It will not happen. Hes not getting any better. But you would decide who to put on your team on increasing accomplishments as a worse player. Which makes it obvious what the problem is here...

You dont care about the ability to play basketball when you decide who plays basketball better. I do.

If Frazier is better for a team now hes always gonna be. wae has peaked. If you consider him better on the floor in the future(as suggested by who you want to have on a real team)...you just arent deciding tha on ability.

Knowing you dont care who plays better reduces my confusion on a number of your selections.

[G.O.A.T]

Wade is never going to be better than he was in 09. It will not happen. Hes not getting any better. But you would decide who to put on your team on increasing accomplishments as a worse player. Which makes it obvious what the problem is here...

You dont care about the ability to play basketball when you decide who plays basketball better. I do.

You're talking about evaluating a player at their peak here. And as I've said I would take a peak Wade over a peak Clyde. This isn't about peak though, it's about career. Wade's career isn't over, but if it was I would take Frazier's career.

Of course I care about "the ability to play basketball" but to me it's not a game where you can shut off injuries and fatigue and adjust the ratings year to year. I career about how they play basketball over the course of their career. How they play at their peak, how long their prime is, how they play when they are past their physical prime. All that matters because all of that happened.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not talking about peak. Im talking about ability to play this game. 05 Wade...07 Wade...this years Wade. 09 Wade.

You take Frazier at any point....I take Wade...I have a better player on my team far as I can tell.

Such things matter to me. Players are at no point...what they are on a career resume. Pluck Walt out of the 70s and Wade out of the 2000s....the guy plucking Wade gets the better player the extreme vast majority of the time. If not every time.

But if you are talking up Cousy vs Wade in the other topic that just isnt the issue to you. You can take Cousy or Walt...and my team can beat yours. Doesnt matter much because its hypothetical...but it would happen.

Guys just arent as good as their career accomplishments. They are as good as they can be expected to play at any given moment.

Walt isnt Wilt or even Elvin Hayes as a guy likely to do well no matter the setting. Hes not done a single thing to suggest that. Without epic talent hes proven nothing and even with it...it doesnt seem he was considered the best player on his team when it did its best.

[atljonesbro]

I know my vote doesn't matter but offense is more important than defense in basketball. Wade Offensively>Frazier. Also Wade is still a great defender.

[WillC]

Arguably the toughest matchup so far. Frazier is one of my all-time favourites. Walt Frazier gets my vote for leading the Knicks past Wilt and West's Lakers (Willis Reed won MVP but anyone who saw that series knows that Walt played better, especially in the final game when he was phenomenal).